Discussion:
Did you read "outside" books in class?
(too old to reply)
Karen Lofstrom
2004-11-25 10:15:51 UTC
Permalink
Prompted by the discussion of education and smart kids in other threads.

When I was a young sprat, I read incessantly, and hated having my reading
interrupted by something as boring as school. So I'd bring my "outside"
books to school and hide them inside the textbook so I could read while
appearing to pay attention. I got in trouble for this a number of times.

What about y'all?
--
Karen Lofstrom ***@lava.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------
NEW! IMPROVED! ECONOMY SIZE!
Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
2004-11-25 10:29:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Lofstrom
Prompted by the discussion of education and smart kids in other threads.
When I was a young sprat, I read incessantly, and hated having my reading
interrupted by something as boring as school. So I'd bring my "outside"
books to school and hide them inside the textbook so I could read while
appearing to pay attention. I got in trouble for this a number of times.
What about y'all?
Oh, yeah.

In first grade we were taking turns reading aloud out of our Dick & Jane
readers (which I had zipped through and determined that nothing interesting
ever happened in), and when it got to be my turn I had no idea where I was
because I was reading a Whitman-published pressboard-covered "Voyage to the
Bottom of the Sea" novel which I only found out a couple of years ago was
actually by Harry Harrison. At first I got in trouble over it, but the end
result was that I got skipped a grade.

(I'd already been skipped out of kindergarten for failing naptime. I later
got skipped again, missing the part where we all learned to write in cursive.
I would have had trouble with that anyway - minor neurological dysfunction
gives me poor fine motor control, and I ended up having to take special
remedial classes to be able to print legibly, and never really got happy with
putting down words until I got to take a typing elective in 7th grade - but
being unable to take down stuff off the board or from dictation at the rate
the rest of the class could was kinda traumatic.)

(In my first round of 7th grade I attended a "free school" called "Becoming",
which was intended to be the student-directed choose-your-curriculum sort of
thing that David Friedman recommends. I read one or two paperback novels every
day at school (every single Agatha Christie paperback, lots of Ellery Queen,
quite a bit of science fiction, etc, etc) and that was, as far as I can recall,
all I did in school the whole year. This set my expectations poorly for the
Individualized Honor Program (pilot program in the LA city schools) I attended
in the next two years, where they actually expected us to do real work in
strictly-prescribed increments. I never did do _any_ of my Latin homework, and
I sure never passed a Latin test.)

-- Alan
Vanessa Van Wagner
2004-11-25 19:27:33 UTC
Permalink
Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote:
(snip)
Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
(I'd already been skipped out of kindergarten for failing naptime.
Failing naptime? I salute you, sir.

I later
Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
got skipped again, missing the part where we all learned to write in cursive.
I would have had trouble with that anyway - minor neurological dysfunction
gives me poor fine motor control, and I ended up having to take special
remedial classes to be able to print legibly, and never really got happy with
putting down words until I got to take a typing elective in 7th grade - but
being unable to take down stuff off the board or from dictation at the rate
the rest of the class could was kinda traumatic.)
(snip)
At various points in life I've been attacked by the penmanship torturers
- people who enjoy letting one know they equate poor handwriting with
poor schooling, intellectual slackness, and the decline of American life
as we know it. They ignore the physical component of writing words on a
paper or blackboard.

(grnroph...hnngk! Rhrhrr, rhrhrr...)

But I'm not angry or bitter.

When I was teaching, I was strict on spelling and lax on penmanship.

Vanessa
Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
2004-11-25 22:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vanessa Van Wagner
(snip)
Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
(I'd already been skipped out of kindergarten for failing naptime.
Failing naptime? I salute you, sir.
Thank you. It's a signal achievement. (I think I just tended to squirm
around a lot and occasioinally remark on how bored I was. Perhaps this ruined
it for the rest of the kids.)
Post by Vanessa Van Wagner
I later
Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
got skipped again, missing the part where we all learned to write in cursive.
I would have had trouble with that anyway - minor neurological dysfunction
gives me poor fine motor control, and I ended up having to take special
remedial classes to be able to print legibly, and never really got happy with
putting down words until I got to take a typing elective in 7th grade - but
being unable to take down stuff off the board or from dictation at the rate
the rest of the class could was kinda traumatic.)
(snip)
At various points in life I've been attacked by the penmanship torturers
- people who enjoy letting one know they equate poor handwriting with
poor schooling, intellectual slackness, and the decline of American life
as we know it. They ignore the physical component of writing words on a
paper or blackboard.
It's easy to assign moral components to problems you don't have. It's even
pretty easy to assign moral components to problems you also have, but except
yourself from them.
Post by Vanessa Van Wagner
Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
(grnroph...hnngk! Rhrhrr, rhrhrr...)
But I'm not angry or bitter.
Nor ironic at all.
Post by Vanessa Van Wagner
When I was teaching, I was strict on spelling and lax on penmanship.
I'm with you.

I saw the sense in my youth of requiring a legible copy of homework; hard to
be strict on spelling if the penmanship is so bad you can't read it at all.
That usually meant laboriously printing a copy.

-- Alan
Nate Edel
2004-11-26 03:05:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
I saw the sense in my youth of requiring a legible copy of homework; hard
to be strict on spelling if the penmanship is so bad you can't read it at
all. That usually meant laboriously printing a copy.
I had the good luck to have a computer and printer from late 3rd-grade on,
and to have it in a window when such things had just gotten (reasonably)
affordable and before they were anywhere near common enough for the school
to have a policy on it one way or the other.

Indeed, that included the "write out these vocabulary/spelling words n
times" - I'm not sure why it worked more than once, perhaps they thought I
was typing them out individually rather than writing a short basic program
to print them (I suppose today one would just copy and paste) but it worked
pretty consistently through 4th and 5th grades.

Now, if someone had introduced me to an accessible copy of LaTeX (*) that
would work via a C-64 and modem and could print back to a dot-matrix
printer, I would have been a happy camper via math class, as I never did
find a good way to do those on the computer til in college I started using
equation editor for word - and I'm not convinced that wasn't more work than
it was worth in retrospect.
--
Nate Edel http://www.cubiclehermit.com/

"I've never felt so accepted in my life. These people looked deep within my
soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
David Friedman
2004-11-26 04:27:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nate Edel
Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
I saw the sense in my youth of requiring a legible copy of homework; hard
to be strict on spelling if the penmanship is so bad you can't read it at
all. That usually meant laboriously printing a copy.
I had the good luck to have a computer and printer from late 3rd-grade on,
and to have it in a window when such things had just gotten (reasonably)
affordable and before they were anywhere near common enough for the school
to have a policy on it one way or the other.
I used a typewriter--starting, I think, in ninth grade.
--
Remove NOSPAM to email
Also remove .invalid
www.daviddfriedman.com
Nancy Lebovitz
2004-11-26 12:10:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
It's easy to assign moral components to problems you don't have.
Well said.
--
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
"We've tamed the lightning and taught sand to give error messages."
http://livejournal.com/users/nancylebov
Lis Carey
2004-11-27 11:08:50 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
Post by Vanessa Van Wagner
At various points in life I've been attacked by the penmanship
torturers - people who enjoy letting one know they equate poor
handwriting with poor schooling, intellectual slackness, and the
decline of American life as we know it. They ignore the physical
component of writing words on a paper or blackboard.
It's easy to assign moral components to problems you don't have. It's
even pretty easy to assign moral components to problems you also have,
but except yourself from them.
My mother has always attributed my lousy pensmanship to my first grade
teacher, who was unwilling to accept any pace except one for learning
penmanship, and hence unwilling to cope with the fact that I've always
been slow and painstaking in acquiring any physical skill. (The fact
that, by the time I let go and just _walked_ without holding on, I'd
mastered the skill completely and never fell down was still a relatively
fresh and often-told tale in the family.)

I think there's a good deal of truth to my mother's version, but in
addition, I think the unforgettable Mrs. Curnane also convinced me that
anything that was that important to someone with such a trivial mind
could not possibly be of any real significance.

<snip>

Lis Carey
Karl Johanson
2004-11-27 19:24:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lis Carey
I think there's a good deal of truth to my mother's version, but in
addition, I think the unforgettable Mrs. Curnane also convinced me that
anything that was that important to someone with such a trivial mind
could not possibly be of any real significance.
I tended to dislike history class, as it was pretty much all 'trivia'. I
loved Jame's Burke's style of teaching history though, (Connections, the
Day the Universe Changed, etc.*) as he brought up interesting events &
technological innovations & showed some of the ways they connected to
each other. I mentioned this at work once & a co-worker said he hated
Connections because it wasn't 'true history', but just a bunch of
trivia.

(I saw him lecture twice (one was called 'Do Lemon's Whistle'), and
found it quite interesting and enjoyable.)

Karl Johanson
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-11-26 06:44:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vanessa Van Wagner
At various points in life I've been attacked by the penmanship torturers
- people who enjoy letting one know they equate poor handwriting with
poor schooling, intellectual slackness, and the decline of American life
as we know it. They ignore the physical component of writing words on a
paper or blackboard.
(grnroph...hnngk! Rhrhrr, rhrhrr...)
But I'm not angry or bitter.
When I was teaching, I was strict on spelling and lax on penmanship.
Longtime hand problems make it painful for me to hold a pen for very long,
and consequently my handwriting and -printing are crabbed. But typing uses
different muscles, and I can happy do that for hours. I can also do it
much, MUCH more quickly than scribbling, with the obvious positive and
negative consequences.

Needless to say, one of the necessary accessories for my Palm Tungsten T3
is the folding keyboard.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
mike weber
2004-11-26 07:03:36 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:27:33 GMT, Vanessa Van Wagner
Post by Vanessa Van Wagner
At various points in life I've been attacked by the penmanship torturers
- people who enjoy letting one know they equate poor handwriting with
poor schooling, intellectual slackness, and the decline of American life
as we know it. They ignore the physical component of writing words on a
paper or blackboard.
As a natural left-hander, with possibly a touch of dyslexia, in a
school system not well-prepared to deal with either, i was perpetually
getting dinged for my penmanship.

But at least they never tried to make me write right-handed.

But, even though they didn't, every time i hear Dorie Previn's "Left
Hand Lost", it almost makes me cry.

And bless my own good luck.
--
=============================================================
"They put manure in his well and they made him talk to lawyers!"
-- Cat Ballou
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
Sea Wasp
2004-11-26 12:04:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:27:33 GMT, Vanessa Van Wagner
Post by Vanessa Van Wagner
At various points in life I've been attacked by the penmanship torturers
- people who enjoy letting one know they equate poor handwriting with
poor schooling, intellectual slackness, and the decline of American life
as we know it. They ignore the physical component of writing words on a
paper or blackboard.
As a natural left-hander, with possibly a touch of dyslexia, in a
school system not well-prepared to deal with either, i was perpetually
getting dinged for my penmanship.
But at least they never tried to make me write right-handed.
I got "D"s throughout school in penmanship.

My handwriting is probably worse now than it was then.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Karl Johanson
2004-11-27 19:26:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
I got "D"s throughout school in penmanship.
My handwriting is probably worse now than it was then.
My handwriting is awesome. In fact, I hand printed this post & scanned
it, rather than type it in.

Karl Johanson
Sea Wasp
2004-11-26 11:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vanessa Van Wagner
At various points in life I've been attacked by the penmanship torturers
- people who enjoy letting one know they equate poor handwriting with
poor schooling, intellectual slackness, and the decline of American life
as we know it.
I just mention that my dad was a member of the medical establishment
and they shut up.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Paul Ciszek
2004-11-26 15:59:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp
Post by Vanessa Van Wagner
At various points in life I've been attacked by the penmanship torturers
- people who enjoy letting one know they equate poor handwriting with
poor schooling, intellectual slackness, and the decline of American life
as we know it.
I just mention that my dad was a member of the medical establishment
and they shut up.
Illegible handwriting being a requirement for that profession, you mean?
That's how a 90-year old man wound up taking birth control pills.
--
Please reply to: | "When you are dealing with secretive regimes
pciszek at panix dot com | that want to deceive, you're never going to
Autoreply is disabled | be able to be positive." -Condoleezza Rice
Andy Leighton
2004-11-26 17:37:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Ciszek
Post by Sea Wasp
I just mention that my dad was a member of the medical establishment
and they shut up.
Illegible handwriting being a requirement for that profession, you mean?
That's how a 90-year old man wound up taking birth control pills.
Well he didn't get pregnant did he - so they must have worked.
--
Andy Leighton => ***@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-11-26 17:58:22 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:59:09 +0000 (UTC), Paul Ciszek
Post by Paul Ciszek
Post by Sea Wasp
I just mention that my dad was a member of the medical
establishment and they shut up.
Illegible handwriting being a requirement for that profession, you
mean? That's how a 90-year old man wound up taking birth control pills.
Well he didn't get pregnant did he - so they must have worked.
Not only that, but it kept the lions away.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
mike weber
2004-11-27 00:07:03 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:58:22 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:59:09 +0000 (UTC), Paul Ciszek
Post by Paul Ciszek
Post by Sea Wasp
I just mention that my dad was a member of the medical
establishment and they shut up.
Illegible handwriting being a requirement for that profession, you
mean? That's how a 90-year old man wound up taking birth control pills.
Well he didn't get pregnant did he - so they must have worked.
Not only that, but it kept the lions away.
I was going to say that.
--
=============================================================
"They put manure in his well and they made him talk to lawyers!"
-- Cat Ballou
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
Doug Wickstrom
2004-11-27 00:17:56 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:07:03 GMT, in message
Post by mike weber
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:58:22 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:59:09 +0000 (UTC), Paul Ciszek
Post by Paul Ciszek
Post by Sea Wasp
I just mention that my dad was a member of the medical
establishment and they shut up.
Illegible handwriting being a requirement for that profession, you
mean? That's how a 90-year old man wound up taking birth control pills.
Well he didn't get pregnant did he - so they must have worked.
Not only that, but it kept the lions away.
I was going to say that.
[*]
--
Doug Wickstrom <***@comcast.net>

"Saying something intelligent, as opposed to saying something, is very
difficult even for me. I can imagine how it must be for most people."
--Isaac Asimov
mike weber
2004-11-27 02:57:49 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:17:56 GMT, Doug Wickstrom
Post by Doug Wickstrom
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:07:03 GMT, in message
Post by mike weber
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:58:22 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:59:09 +0000 (UTC), Paul Ciszek
Post by Paul Ciszek
Post by Sea Wasp
I just mention that my dad was a member of the medical
establishment and they shut up.
Illegible handwriting being a requirement for that profession, you
mean? That's how a 90-year old man wound up taking birth control pills.
Well he didn't get pregnant did he - so they must have worked.
Not only that, but it kept the lions away.
I was going to say that.
[*]
<quote>

Interviewed in 1966 by Francois Truffaut, Hitchcock illustrated the
term "MacGuffin" with this story:

"It might be a Scottish name, taken from a story about two men in a
train. One man says, 'What's that package up there in the baggage
rack?' And the other answers, 'Oh that's a McGuffin.' The first one
asks 'What's a McGuffin?' 'Well' the other man says, 'It's an
apparatus for trapping lions in the Scottish Highlands.' The first man
says, 'But there are no lions in the Scottish Highlands,' and the
other one answers 'Well, then that's no McGuffin!' So you see, a
McGuffin is nothing at all."

<end quote>

Although the version of the story that i'd heard some time before 1966
has the punchline "Aye -- works verra well, then, eh?"
--
=============================================================
"They put manure in his well and they made him talk to lawyers!"
-- Cat Ballou
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-11-27 08:27:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:58:22 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:59:09 +0000 (UTC), Paul Ciszek
Post by Paul Ciszek
Post by Sea Wasp
I just mention that my dad was a member of the medical
establishment and they shut up.
Illegible handwriting being a requirement for that profession, you
mean? That's how a 90-year old man wound up taking birth control pills.
Well he didn't get pregnant did he - so they must have worked.
Not only that, but it kept the lions away.
I was going to say that.
You will, Oscar, you will.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
2004-11-27 10:19:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Wickstrom
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:07:03 GMT, in message
Post by mike weber
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:58:22 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:59:09 +0000 (UTC), Paul Ciszek
Post by Paul Ciszek
Post by Sea Wasp
I just mention that my dad was a member of the medical
establishment and they shut up.
Illegible handwriting being a requirement for that profession, you
mean? That's how a 90-year old man wound up taking birth control pills.
Well he didn't get pregnant did he - so they must have worked.
Not only that, but it kept the lions away.
I was going to say that.
[*]
See Alexander King's "May This House Be Safe From Tigers", explained as an
Indian (subcontinental) blessing which _really_ works; no tigers having
attacked his house in Connecticut (?) yet.

Lions, on the other hand ...

On a train, someone asks the Scotsman what that weird contraption he has in.

"That's a MacGuffin."

"What's that?"

"A device for catching lions in Scotland."

"But there are no lions in Scotland."

"Och, then it's no MacGuffin."


(Which supposedly is where Alfred Hitchcock got the name for the thing that
drives the plot, when it doesn't really matter that much what the thing is.)

-- Alan

9
Dorothy J Heydt
2004-11-27 01:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:59:09 +0000 (UTC), Paul Ciszek
Post by Paul Ciszek
Post by Sea Wasp
I just mention that my dad was a member of the medical
establishment and they shut up.
Illegible handwriting being a requirement for that profession, you
mean? That's how a 90-year old man wound up taking birth control pills.
Well he didn't get pregnant did he - so they must have worked.
Not only that, but it kept the lions away.
Surely you meant either mice, or sharks?

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
mike weber
2004-11-27 02:58:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 01:04:38 GMT, ***@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) typed
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Surely you meant either mice, or sharks?
See my reply to Doug's [*]
--
=============================================================
"They put manure in his well and they made him talk to lawyers!"
-- Cat Ballou
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
Karl Johanson
2004-11-27 20:26:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Ciszek
Illegible handwriting being a requirement for that profession, you mean?
That's how a 90-year old man wound up taking birth control pills.
Was that the 90 year old who was laughing all the time who was supposed
to get mirth contol pills?

Karl Johanson
Karl Johanson
2004-11-27 19:19:45 UTC
Permalink
"Vanessa Van Wagner" <***@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Fmqpd.3957
Post by Vanessa Van Wagner
At various points in life I've been attacked by the penmanship
torturers - people who enjoy letting one know they equate poor
handwriting with poor schooling, intellectual slackness, and the
decline of American life as we know it. They ignore the physical
component of writing words on a paper or blackboard.
In my experience, the teachers who made the most comments about
student's handwriting, tended to be those teachers who's writing was so
stylized as to be even more unreadable than us 'sloppy' writers.

Karl Johanson
David Langford
2004-11-26 08:32:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
In first grade we were taking turns reading aloud out of our Dick & Jane
readers (which I had zipped through and determined that nothing interesting
ever happened in), and when it got to be my turn I had no idea where I was
because I was reading a Whitman-published pressboard-covered "Voyage to the
Bottom of the Sea" novel which I only found out a couple of years ago was
actually by Harry Harrison. At first I got in trouble over it, but the end
result was that I got skipped a grade.
That certainly has the air of a Great Common Fannish Experience.

ObSF: Harry Harrison? I remember that the original VTTBOTS film
novelization was by, and credited to, Theodore Sturgeon, while Raymond F.
Jones and Paul W. Fairman both wrote TV series spinoffs, but the Harry
Harrison connection is new to me.

Dave
--
David Langford
http://ansible.co.uk/
Latest book: =Different Kinds of Darkness= (collection, Cosmos, 2004)
Karen Lofstrom
2004-11-26 08:55:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Langford
That certainly has the air of a Great Common Fannish Experience.
Ah, the good old days of being an infant prodigy, instead of just a
reclusive book geek with Aspergers :)

I completely boggled my second-grade teacher the first day of class, when
she passed out our readers for the year. By the time she had finished
passing out the books, I'd finished mine. I raised my hand and asked for
another book.

It would have done me a lot of good, I think, to have been thrown in the
company of other infant prodigies, so that I'd have had the experience of
being NORMAL. That's what I like about fandom, and Distributed
Proofreaders -- I'm NORMAL. By fannish standards.
--
Karen Lofstrom ***@lava.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Cthulhu vs. a bunch of Nazis? Oh, I am sure *our* side would win hands
down!" -- Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
mike weber
2004-11-26 12:23:12 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 08:32:55 +0000, David Langford <***@cix.co.uk>
typed
Post by David Langford
ObSF: Harry Harrison? I remember that the original VTTBOTS film
novelization was by, and credited to, Theodore Sturgeon, while Raymond F.
Jones and Paul W. Fairman both wrote TV series spinoffs, but the Harry
Harrison connection is new to me.
That threw me, too, till i looked again and saw the Whitman name and
realised that this was not the pocketbook adaptation credited to
Sturgeon, but a HC juvenile edition.

Whitman published a lot of juvenile books in cheap HC, printed on
cheap paper and bound like paperbacks. They were the size of standard
HC books and had covers coated with shiny stuff; they sold for about
what a paperback sold for.
--
=============================================================
"They put manure in his well and they made him talk to lawyers!"
-- Cat Ballou
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-11-26 16:37:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
typed
Post by David Langford
ObSF: Harry Harrison? I remember that the original VTTBOTS film
novelization was by, and credited to, Theodore Sturgeon, while Raymond F.
Jones and Paul W. Fairman both wrote TV series spinoffs, but the Harry
Harrison connection is new to me.
That threw me, too, till i looked again and saw the Whitman name and
realised that this was not the pocketbook adaptation credited to
Sturgeon, but a HC juvenile edition.
Whitman published a lot of juvenile books in cheap HC, printed on
cheap paper and bound like paperbacks. They were the size of standard
HC books and had covers coated with shiny stuff; they sold for about
what a paperback sold for.
Wasn't there a kiddie "Star Trek" book in this format, published roughly
contemporaneous with the original series, that was written by some well-
known SF author? I want to say Mack Reynolds, but I could be wrong.

I have now done a Google search and smugly declare that I was right. It
was Mack Reynolds, and the book was _Mission to Horatius_, 1968.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Lis Carey
2004-11-27 11:18:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by mike weber
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 08:32:55 +0000, David Langford
Post by David Langford
ObSF: Harry Harrison? I remember that the original VTTBOTS film
novelization was by, and credited to, Theodore Sturgeon, while
Raymond F. Jones and Paul W. Fairman both wrote TV series spinoffs,
but the Harry Harrison connection is new to me.
That threw me, too, till i looked again and saw the Whitman name and
realised that this was not the pocketbook adaptation credited to
Sturgeon, but a HC juvenile edition.
Whitman published a lot of juvenile books in cheap HC, printed on
cheap paper and bound like paperbacks. They were the size of
standard HC books and had covers coated with shiny stuff; they sold
for about what a paperback sold for.
Wasn't there a kiddie "Star Trek" book in this format, published
roughly contemporaneous with the original series, that was written by
some well- known SF author? I want to say Mack Reynolds, but I could
be wrong.
I have now done a Google search and smugly declare that I was right.
It was Mack Reynolds, and the book was _Mission to Horatius_, 1968.
And I fondly remember it.

Well, maybe only moderately fondly.

Lis Carey
Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
2004-11-27 10:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Langford
Post by Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing
In first grade we were taking turns reading aloud out of our Dick & Jane
readers (which I had zipped through and determined that nothing interesting
ever happened in), and when it got to be my turn I had no idea where I was
because I was reading a Whitman-published pressboard-covered "Voyage to the
Bottom of the Sea" novel which I only found out a couple of years ago was
actually by Harry Harrison. At first I got in trouble over it, but the end
result was that I got skipped a grade.
That certainly has the air of a Great Common Fannish Experience.
ObSF: Harry Harrison? I remember that the original VTTBOTS film
novelization was by, and credited to, Theodore Sturgeon, while Raymond F.
Jones and Paul W. Fairman both wrote TV series spinoffs, but the Harry
Harrison connection is new to me.
Never mind; it was Raymond F. Jones. (It was the one with the Atlantean
civilization, I don't have it any more, and I misassociated the author. I do
still the my copy of the Sturgeon, which is a much, much better book than the
movie is a movie (as I'm pleased to say I told him in 1975).).

-- Alan
Sea Wasp
2004-11-25 11:37:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Lofstrom
Prompted by the discussion of education and smart kids in other threads.
When I was a young sprat, I read incessantly, and hated having my reading
interrupted by something as boring as school. So I'd bring my "outside"
books to school and hide them inside the textbook so I could read while
appearing to pay attention. I got in trouble for this a number of times.
What about y'all?
All the time. I had some teachers that had a problem with it, but
they'd stop once it became clear that I knew more than anyone else in
the class anyway, regardless of my reading choices.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Dave Weingart
2004-11-25 14:39:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Lofstrom
interrupted by something as boring as school. So I'd bring my "outside"
books to school and hide them inside the textbook so I could read while
appearing to pay attention. I got in trouble for this a number of times.
You bothered to bring the textbook?

--
73 de Dave Weingart KA2ESK Loyalty oaths. Secret searches. No-fly
mailto:***@liii.com lists. Detention without legal recourse.
http://www.weingart.net/ Who won the cold war, again?
ICQ 57055207 -- Politicklers
Nate Edel
2004-11-25 12:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Lofstrom
When I was a young sprat, I read incessantly, and hated having my reading
interrupted by something as boring as school. So I'd bring my "outside"
books to school and hide them inside the textbook so I could read while
appearing to pay attention. I got in trouble for this a number of times.
What about y'all?
On rare occasions... though throughout my highschool career it was pretty
rare to actually be reading from a textbook in class. Hiding reading
material while "taking notes" is a bit harder, but quite doable.

Then, once I got a laptop, at least at times it proved practical to be
"taking notes" while playing a video game (it helped that I had first
DesqView then Windows 3.1 and was able to switch back to a word-processor
screeen if teachers got snoopy.) When did the original Civilization come
out? That one ate up a lot of class time.
--
Nate Edel http://www.cubiclehermit.com/

"I've never felt so accepted in my life. These people looked deep within my
soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Damien Neil
2004-11-25 18:06:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Lofstrom
When I was a young sprat, I read incessantly, and hated having my reading
interrupted by something as boring as school. So I'd bring my "outside"
books to school and hide them inside the textbook so I could read while
appearing to pay attention. I got in trouble for this a number of times.
What about y'all?
I did this all the time, up until high school or so. I'd cleverly
conceal the book in my lap, where the teacher couldn't see it...err,
where the teacher could let me continue to believe he or she couldn't
see it.

I got good grades anyway, so the teachers generally didn't care.

- Damien
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-11-26 06:44:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Damien Neil
Post by Karen Lofstrom
When I was a young sprat, I read incessantly, and hated having my
reading interrupted by something as boring as school. So I'd bring my
"outside" books to school and hide them inside the textbook so I could
read while appearing to pay attention. I got in trouble for this a
number of times.
What about y'all?
I did this all the time, up until high school or so. I'd cleverly
conceal the book in my lap, where the teacher couldn't see it...err,
where the teacher could let me continue to believe he or she couldn't
see it.
I got good grades anyway, so the teachers generally didn't care.
Grad school was great. I got "A"s in all my seminars (except for one where
the professor admitted he couldn't give me higher than a "B" when illness
made me miss too many classes), and I read all the Nero Wolfe books.
Thanks, Kate Worley, wherever in the next realm you may happen to be, for
the recommendation.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Mark Jones
2004-11-25 20:31:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Lofstrom
Prompted by the discussion of education and smart kids in other threads.
When I was a young sprat, I read incessantly, and hated having my reading
interrupted by something as boring as school. So I'd bring my "outside"
books to school and hide them inside the textbook so I could read while
appearing to pay attention. I got in trouble for this a number of times.
What about y'all?
Yes, definitely. Especially in math class (I hated math and was no good at
it, so I didn't not to improve, and...you know how that cycle goes).
Karl Johanson
2004-11-27 00:50:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Lofstrom
Prompted by the discussion of education and smart kids in other threads.
When I was a young sprat, I read incessantly, and hated having my reading
interrupted by something as boring as school. So I'd bring my
"outside"
books to school and hide them inside the textbook so I could read while
appearing to pay attention. I got in trouble for this a number of times.
What about y'all?
I brought a programmable calculator into grade 11 math once (1977). We
were doing a test on the quadratic formula, so we were allowed to use
calculators, but our teacher didn't realize I had a programmable (my
parents got it Hong Kong). My calculator would allow you to write 176
character programs with 3 different variables and store them on magnetic
strip cards. I aced the test in five minutes & had time to finish the
homework for other classes I hadn't done the night before because I'd
spent 2 hours figuring out how to do the quadratic equation with 176
bits.

Karl Johanson
Dorothy J Heydt
2004-11-27 01:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karl Johanson
I brought a programmable calculator into grade 11 math once (1977). We
were doing a test on the quadratic formula, so we were allowed to use
calculators, but our teacher didn't realize I had a programmable (my
parents got it Hong Kong). My calculator would allow you to write 176
character programs with 3 different variables and store them on magnetic
strip cards. I aced the test in five minutes & had time to finish the
homework for other classes I hadn't done the night before because I'd
spent 2 hours figuring out how to do the quadratic equation with 176
bits.
And not only that, I bet by the time you were finished with your
programming, you thoroughly understood the principles of what the
test was about.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
Keith F. Lynch
2004-11-27 02:38:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I aced the test in five minutes & had time to finish the homework
for other classes I hadn't done the night before because I'd spent
2 hours figuring out how to do the quadratic equation with 176 bits.
And not only that, I bet by the time you were finished with your
programming, you thoroughly understood the principles of what the
test was about.
ObSF: _Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine_.

I have a similar story, except in my case it was polar to rectangular
coordinate transforms, and vice versa. And I didn't write the
program. But I did know how to do the transforms -- and still do. In
fact, I can do them without a trig table, slide rule, or calculator,
since I know how to calculate trig functions with pen and paper.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Damien R. Sullivan
2004-11-27 06:47:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
I have a similar story, except in my case it was polar to rectangular
coordinate transforms, and vice versa. And I didn't write the
program. But I did know how to do the transforms -- and still do. In
fact, I can do them without a trig table, slide rule, or calculator,
since I know how to calculate trig functions with pen and paper.
How do you? I tried figuring this out a few years ago, but have forgotten.
Well, I was trying to figure out how one would do it without calculus: no
power series! I was thinking of figuring out some values geometrically, then
using trig laws to get more values, and at some point you take the leap and do
interpolation.

But when I tried again recently I couldn't see how we know that sin(pi/6) is
1/2, so got stuck. (sin(pi/4) is easy, of course.)

-xx- Damien X-)
Thomas Womack
2004-11-27 12:40:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Damien R. Sullivan
Post by Keith F. Lynch
I have a similar story, except in my case it was polar to rectangular
coordinate transforms, and vice versa. And I didn't write the
program. But I did know how to do the transforms -- and still do. In
fact, I can do them without a trig table, slide rule, or calculator,
since I know how to calculate trig functions with pen and paper.
How do you? I tried figuring this out a few years ago, but have forgotten.
Well, I was trying to figure out how one would do it without calculus: no
power series! I was thinking of figuring out some values geometrically, then
using trig laws to get more values, and at some point you take the leap and do
interpolation.
But when I tried again recently I couldn't see how we know that sin(pi/6) is
1/2, so got stuck. (sin(pi/4) is easy, of course.)
Draw an equilateral triangle, the angles in which are 60 degrees
because they're all the same and the angles of a triangle add up to
180, and drop a line from the apex to bisect the base. This gives you
a 30-60-90 right-angled triangle, two of whose sides are clearly 0.5
and 1.

You can also get cos(72 degrees) by noting that it satifies cos(2t) =
cos(3t); expanding by trig identities gives a cubic equation, but one
of the roots is 1.

Then keep bisecting by solving 2 cos(n/2)^2 - 1 = cos(n) and sin(n)^2
+ cos(n)^2 = 1 (get the cosines then use the second expression to get
the sins), and when sin(n/2) equals-to-limits-of-precision sin(n)/2,
start interpolating.

Linear interpolation between sin(15/16 degree) and sin(9/8 degrees)
gets you sin(1 degree), then you can start doubling and adding to walk
up.

It's easier with calculus, but you can see that it would have been
possible by hand.

Tom
Sea Wasp
2004-11-27 11:26:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I aced the test in five minutes & had time to finish the homework
for other classes I hadn't done the night before because I'd spent
2 hours figuring out how to do the quadratic equation with 176 bits.
And not only that, I bet by the time you were finished with your
programming, you thoroughly understood the principles of what the
test was about.
ObSF: _Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine_.
Damn, beat me to it.

I want those books reissued.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Karl Johanson
2004-11-27 17:33:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Karl Johanson
I brought a programmable calculator into grade 11 math once (1977). We
were doing a test on the quadratic formula, so we were allowed to use
calculators, but our teacher didn't realize I had a programmable (my
parents got it Hong Kong). My calculator would allow you to write 176
character programs with 3 different variables and store them on magnetic
strip cards. I aced the test in five minutes & had time to finish the
homework for other classes I hadn't done the night before because I'd
spent 2 hours figuring out how to do the quadratic equation with 176
bits.
And not only that, I bet by the time you were finished with your
programming, you thoroughly understood the principles of what the
test was about.
Yes, very good point. Making a program is one, of many, ways to help
understand an equation. With more advanced programming languages it
isn't always though. For square roots, you rarely need to write a square
root deriving program, but just tell the program to use the command SQRT
(or whatever it is in various languages). But, you still might be
learning some programming techniques.

I did a program once to find prime pares & noticed that the number
between prime pares above 5(such as 42) always seemed to be evenly
divisible by 6. A mathematician friend of mine proved that it's true for
all prime pares. I still haven't made any money off this idea though.

Karl Johanson
Robert Sneddon
2004-11-27 11:42:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Lofstrom
Prompted by the discussion of education and smart kids in other threads.
When I was a young sprat, I read incessantly, and hated having my reading
interrupted by something as boring as school. So I'd bring my
"outside"
books to school and hide them inside the textbook so I could read while
appearing to pay attention. I got in trouble for this a number of times.
What about y'all?
Near the end of my secondary school career we were given "mock" exams
to prepare us for the finals to come later that year. As part of this
the French teacher gave us an extra vocabulary list in preparation for
an oral comprehension exam the following week. I recognised several of
the words from a text section at the back of a French textbook we had
been issued; in the course of the regular term we had gotten through
about half of the book but my inveterate reading habit had forced me to
read the whole thing. I let the rest of the class know about this, and
sure enough when the test came the teacher used that section, confident
that none of us had read it. When he came to hand out the results of the
exam he got half-way through the list then threw the rest of the papers
at us and stormed out of the room. Served him right for being lazy.
--
Email me via nojay (at) nojay (dot) fsnet (dot) co (dot) uk
This address no longer accepts HTML posts.

Robert Sneddon
Karl Johanson
2004-11-27 17:24:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Sneddon
Near the end of my secondary school career we were given "mock" exams
to prepare us for the finals to come later that year. As part of this
the French teacher gave us an extra vocabulary list in preparation for
an oral comprehension exam the following week. I recognised several of
the words from a text section at the back of a French textbook we had
been issued; in the course of the regular term we had gotten through
about half of the book but my inveterate reading habit had forced me
to read the whole thing. I let the rest of the class know about this,
and sure enough when the test came the teacher used that section,
confident that none of us had read it. When he came to hand out the
results of the exam he got half-way through the list then threw the
rest of the papers at us and stormed out of the room. Served him right
for being lazy.
Bad old students reading & studying :)

Karl Johanson
Dorothy J Heydt
2004-11-27 17:39:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karl Johanson
Post by Robert Sneddon
Near the end of my secondary school career we were given "mock" exams
to prepare us for the finals to come later that year. As part of this
the French teacher gave us an extra vocabulary list in preparation for
an oral comprehension exam the following week. I recognised several of
the words from a text section at the back of a French textbook we had
been issued; in the course of the regular term we had gotten through
about half of the book but my inveterate reading habit had forced me
to read the whole thing. I let the rest of the class know about this,
and sure enough when the test came the teacher used that section,
confident that none of us had read it. When he came to hand out the
results of the exam he got half-way through the list then threw the
rest of the papers at us and stormed out of the room. Served him right
for being lazy.
Bad old students reading & studying :)
I had the mirror of that experience in a Latin class once. The
teacher was giving us texts from the back to translate at sight,
which supposedly we hadn't seen before. And I hadn't seen mine
before, but it was a medieval text about a boy who got the Devil
to do his homework for him, and I find medieval Latin much easier
to read than classical. I knew all the vocabulary, for one
thing. So I read it off and the professor said, "You were
*supposed* not to have seen that before."

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
Karl Johanson
2004-11-27 19:50:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Karl Johanson
Bad old students reading & studying :)
I had the mirror of that experience in a Latin class once. The
teacher was giving us texts from the back to translate at sight,
which supposedly we hadn't seen before. And I hadn't seen mine
before, but it was a medieval text about a boy who got the Devil
to do his homework for him, and I find medieval Latin much easier
to read than classical.
Is there a 'modern' Latin as well?
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I knew all the vocabulary, for one
thing. So I read it off and the professor said, "You were
*supposed* not to have seen that before."
Our psych text book in grade 11 had a bit on memory. They had several
'random' letters in a row, which the students were to glance at & see if
they could remember them. Something like "PNPVHFTTLUHFMHZ". I was the
only one to remember them all. The teacher asked if I'd read ahead. I
hadn't the trick, also noted on the next page of the text, was that all
the letters were all three letter acronyms (or abbreviations) of
electronics hardware that some (myself included) happened to already be
familiar with. So for me, a letter combination like "PNP" was one data
point rather than three. Rather like listing FIWOLFIJAGDHGAFIADNQ as a
listing of 'random' letters, which fans would tend to find quite easy to
memorize.

Karl Johanson

(My second favorite scene from Life of Brian, where Brian has just
written what he thinks is "Roman's Go Home' on the wall of a building:)
CENTURION: What's this, then? 'Romanes Eunt Domus'? 'People called
Romanes they go the house'?

BRIAN: It-- it says, 'Romans, go home'.

CENTURION: No, it doesn't. What's Latin for 'Roman'? Come on!

BRIAN: Aah!

CENTURION: Come on!

BRIAN: 'R-- Romanus'?

CENTURION: Goes like...?

BRIAN: 'Annus'?

CENTURION: Vocative plural of 'annus' is...?

BRIAN: Eh. 'Anni'?

CENTURION: 'Romani'. 'Eunt'? What is 'eunt'?

BRIAN: 'Go'. Let--

CENTURION: Conjugate the verb 'to go'.

BRIAN: Uh. 'Ire'. Uh, 'eo'. 'Is'. 'It'. 'Imus'. 'Itis'. 'Eunt'.

CENTURION: So 'eunt' is...?

BRIAN: Ah, huh, third person plural, uh, present indicative. Uh, 'they
go'.

CENTURION: But 'Romans, go home' is an order, so you must use the...?

BRIAN: The... imperative!

CENTURION: Which is...?

BRIAN: Umm! Oh. Oh. Um, 'i'. 'I'!

CENTURION: How many Romans?

BRIAN: Ah! 'I'-- Plural. Plural. 'Ite'. 'Ite'.

CENTURION: 'Ite'.

BRIAN: Ah. Eh.

CENTURION: 'Domus'?

BRIAN: Eh.

CENTURION: Nominative?

BRIAN: Oh.

CENTURION: 'Go home'? This is motion towards. Isn't it, boy?

BRIAN: Ah. Ah, dative, sir! Ahh! No, not dative! Not the dative, sir!
No! Ah! Oh, the... accusative! Accusative! Ah! 'Domum', sir! 'Ad domum'!
Ah! Oooh! Ah!

CENTURION: Except that 'domus' takes the...?

BRIAN: The locative, sir!

CENTURION: Which is...?!

BRIAN: 'Domum'.

CENTURION: 'Domum'.

BRIAN: Aaah! Ah.

CENTURION: 'Um'. Understand?

BRIAN: Yes, sir.

CENTURION: Now, write it out a hundred times.

BRIAN: Yes, sir. Thank you, sir. Hail Caesar, sir.
Dorothy J Heydt
2004-11-27 20:23:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karl Johanson
Is there a 'modern' Latin as well?
Well, there is, but it's the same as medieval Latin with more
vocabulary. There's a office at the Vatican whose job it is to
invent Latin words or phrases to express new terms such as "disk
drive" or "spam" and I bet it has a website and I wish I knew
where it was.
Post by Karl Johanson
Our psych text book in grade 11 had a bit on memory. They had several
'random' letters in a row, which the students were to glance at & see if
they could remember them. Something like "PNPVHFTTLUHFMHZ". I was the
only one to remember them all. The teacher asked if I'd read ahead. I
hadn't the trick, also noted on the next page of the text, was that all
the letters were all three letter acronyms (or abbreviations) of
electronics hardware that some (myself included) happened to already be
familiar with. So for me, a letter combination like "PNP" was one data
point rather than three. Rather like listing FIWOLFIJAGDHGAFIADNQ as a
listing of 'random' letters, which fans would tend to find quite easy to
memorize.
I read that off to Hal and he said, "Yup."
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
Karl Johanson
2004-11-27 20:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Karl Johanson
Is there a 'modern' Latin as well?
Well, there is, but it's the same as medieval Latin with more
vocabulary.
Thank You.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
There's a office at the Vatican whose job it is to
invent Latin words or phrases to express new terms such as "disk
drive" or "spam" and I bet it has a website and I wish I knew
where it was.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/institutions_connected/latinitas/documents/rc_latinitas_20040601_lexicon_it.html

Karl Johanson
Dorothy J Heydt
2004-11-27 20:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karl Johanson
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
There's a office at the Vatican whose job it is to
invent Latin words or phrases to express new terms such as "disk
drive" or "spam" and I bet it has a website and I wish I knew
where it was.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/institutions_connected/latinitas/documents/rc_latinitas_20040601_lexicon_it.html
That's it!!! Thank you!

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
Keith F. Lynch
2004-11-27 21:46:56 UTC
Permalink
There's a office at the Vatican whose job it is to invent Latin
words or phrases to express new terms such as "disk drive" or
"spam" ...
For words like "spam" that aren't built on more basic words, why not
just borrow the word directly? I believe all other languages do.
That is, I suspect the Japanese word for unsoliticed bulk email is
"spam," or as close to it as they can pronounce.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Dorothy J Heydt
2004-11-27 22:01:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
There's a office at the Vatican whose job it is to invent Latin
words or phrases to express new terms such as "disk drive" or
"spam" ...
For words like "spam" that aren't built on more basic words, why not
just borrow the word directly? I believe all other languages do.
That is, I suspect the Japanese word for unsoliticed bulk email is
"spam," or as close to it as they can pronounce.
Some languages borrow words entire. English is famous for doing
so. Other languages prefer to do loan-translations. I should
note in particular that a Latin word for a new thing must conform
to Latin grammar; a verb must belong to one of three
conjugations, so you know how to conjugate it; a noun must belong
to one of five declensions so you know how to decline it, and you
need to know what gender it is. Also, the new thing may already
have one name in English, another in French, another in German,
another in Italian, etc. etc. Easier (since Latin is spoken
mostly by a structured hierarchy these days) to pick a form using
Latin roots and declare "this is the official word now" and get
everyone to use it.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
David Goldfarb
2004-11-28 09:37:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
a verb must belong to one of three
conjugations, so you know how to conjugate it
Er, four, actually.
--
David Goldfarb |"The Uncertainty Principle allows particles
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | to travel faster than light over short distances."
***@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Stephen Hawking
Sea Wasp
2004-11-27 22:55:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
There's a office at the Vatican whose job it is to invent Latin
words or phrases to express new terms such as "disk drive" or
"spam" ...
For words like "spam" that aren't built on more basic words, why not
just borrow the word directly? I believe all other languages do.
That is, I suspect the Japanese word for unsoliticed bulk email is
"spam," or as close to it as they can pronounce.
Roughly "supamu".
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Doug Wickstrom
2004-11-27 23:03:01 UTC
Permalink
On 27 Nov 2004 16:46:56 -0500, in message
Post by Keith F. Lynch
There's a office at the Vatican whose job it is to invent Latin
words or phrases to express new terms such as "disk drive" or
"spam" ...
For words like "spam" that aren't built on more basic words, why not
just borrow the word directly? I believe all other languages do.
That is, I suspect the Japanese word for unsoliticed bulk email is
"spam," or as close to it as they can pronounce.
Ahem.

"as close to it is they can pronounce" smacks of racism, no?

As close to it as can be written using traditional Japanese
orthography is what you mean, isn't it? I assure you, there is
nothing preventing the Japanese from pronouncing whatever they
like. It's just that the way of representing certain
combinations of sounds results in something that to native
speakers of other languages tends to bring on attacks of whimsy.
--
Doug Wickstrom <***@comcast.net>

I have a fatal disease. I'm alive.
David Bilek
2004-11-28 00:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Wickstrom
On 27 Nov 2004 16:46:56 -0500, in message
Post by Keith F. Lynch
There's a office at the Vatican whose job it is to invent Latin
words or phrases to express new terms such as "disk drive" or
"spam" ...
For words like "spam" that aren't built on more basic words, why not
just borrow the word directly? I believe all other languages do.
That is, I suspect the Japanese word for unsoliticed bulk email is
"spam," or as close to it as they can pronounce.
Ahem.
"as close to it is they can pronounce" smacks of racism, no?
Eh? Not at all.

I know for a fact that I, and many other Americans, have trouble
pronouncing a lot of the phonemes in French. Am I a racist against
Americans if I used the phrase "as close to it as they can pronounce"
about Americans and French?

It's much too nasally for me to pronounce comfortably.

-David
Dorothy J Heydt
2004-11-28 05:10:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Wickstrom
On 27 Nov 2004 16:46:56 -0500, in message
Post by Keith F. Lynch
There's a office at the Vatican whose job it is to invent Latin
words or phrases to express new terms such as "disk drive" or
"spam" ...
For words like "spam" that aren't built on more basic words, why not
just borrow the word directly? I believe all other languages do.
That is, I suspect the Japanese word for unsoliticed bulk email is
"spam," or as close to it as they can pronounce.
Ahem.
"as close to it is they can pronounce" smacks of racism, no?
Should it? Little children of every ethnicity in the world, when
they are just learning to talk, babble every possible sound the
human vocal apparatus is capable of making. After a while they
learn to speak the language their parents speak, and they zoom in
on the particular sounds that are used to produce that language.
By the time they are six they are "expert naive speakers" of
their language. Eventually they get so that there are perfectly
good sounds, part of the inventory of other languages, which they
just can't pronounce any more. It isn't that they didn't learn
how to--it's that they learned how NOT to.

Remember the Izusu commercial where the European-American tries
desperately to pronounce the name of his product, and fails
several times? And the Asian comes up and says, in a comforting
tone of voice, "That's okay, kid. I could never pronounce
Chevroret."
Post by Doug Wickstrom
As close to it as can be written using traditional Japanese
orthography is what you mean, isn't it? I assure you, there is
nothing preventing the Japanese from pronouncing whatever they
like.
Yes, there is. It's the habit of speaking Japanese from earliest
childhood.

Mind you, some Japanese kids start learning English young enough
that they learn to pronounce the English phonemic inventor too.
But many don't.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
Doug Wickstrom
2004-11-28 07:15:28 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 05:10:52 GMT, in message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Remember the Izusu commercial where the European-American tries
desperately to pronounce the name of his product, and fails
several times? And the Asian comes up and says, in a comforting
tone of voice, "That's okay, kid. I could never pronounce
Chevroret."
That's not surprising, given that Japanese public school teachers
of English mostly do not speak English very well, themselves.

BTW, having owned one, on the title it was a "Shibure." If you
can detect "Chevrolet" from that without knowing what it is,
you're a better man than I am, Gunga Din. The Japanese will
never learn to pronounce English the way it is taught in Japan,
using Japanese orthography, and having no actual speakers of the
language as a guide.

I was frequently told that I had no detectable accent in
Japanese, that when people heard me on the telephone it was
assumed that I was from Hokkaido or Tokyo. If it were true, what
you say, then I could never have pronounced Japanese words so
well. I've heard American and Canadian accents in Japanese.
They are readily apparent, and Antipodean and British Isles
accents are even worse.

BTW, it is "Isuzu," and it is quite simple to pronounce:
Ee-soo-zoo, with a slightly higher pitch accent on the first
syllable, and a slightly lower one, and falling, on the final.
It's not your fault that you were _taught_ to say "eeSOOzoo,"
with a stress accent on the second syllable, any more than it is
the fault of Japanese, who are taught to say "sheebooray," and
then cannot pronounce "Chevrolet."
--
Doug Wickstrom <***@comcast.net>

"Believe me, you gotta get up early if you wanna get out of bed."
--Groucho Marx
Dorothy J Heydt
2004-11-28 07:21:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Wickstrom
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 05:10:52 GMT, in message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Remember the Izusu commercial where the European-American tries
desperately to pronounce the name of his product, and fails
several times? And the Asian comes up and says, in a comforting
tone of voice, "That's okay, kid. I could never pronounce
Chevroret."
That's not surprising, given that Japanese public school teachers
of English mostly do not speak English very well, themselves.
BTW, having owned one, on the title it was a "Shibure."
One what? Asian-manufactured Chevrolet? Actually the guy in the
commercial pronounced it more like "Shever-ray," and I strongly
suspect that the European-American actor could've pronounced
"Isuzu" if he'd wanted to, and the Asian (or more likely
Asian-American) actor could have pronounced "Chevrolet" if he'd
wanted to. But they were being funny for commercial purposes,
trying to defuse the tendency of many Americans to shy away from
pronouncing anything they don't find familiar.

If you
Post by Doug Wickstrom
can detect "Chevrolet" from that without knowing what it is,
you're a better man than I am, Gunga Din. The Japanese will
never learn to pronounce English the way it is taught in Japan,
using Japanese orthography, and having no actual speakers of the
language as a guide.
I'll take your word for it.
Post by Doug Wickstrom
I was frequently told that I had no detectable accent in
Japanese, that when people heard me on the telephone it was
assumed that I was from Hokkaido or Tokyo. If it were true, what
you say, then I could never have pronounced Japanese words so
well. I've heard American and Canadian accents in Japanese.
They are readily apparent, and Antipodean and British Isles
accents are even worse.
Of course you can. Many can. Many Japanese can pronounce
English quite adequately. But many can't.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
Doug Wickstrom
2004-11-28 08:28:18 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 07:21:40 GMT, in message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Doug Wickstrom
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 05:10:52 GMT, in message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Remember the Izusu commercial where the European-American tries
desperately to pronounce the name of his product, and fails
several times? And the Asian comes up and says, in a comforting
tone of voice, "That's okay, kid. I could never pronounce
Chevroret."
That's not surprising, given that Japanese public school teachers
of English mostly do not speak English very well, themselves.
BTW, having owned one, on the title it was a "Shibure."
One what? Asian-manufactured Chevrolet?
No, and American-made one, that said "Chevrolet," "S-10," and
"Blazer" in various places all over it. Bought it in Japan. I
know what it's like to register an imported vehicle in Japan,
from the nuts-and-bolts side of the picture, and it ain't pretty.
--
Doug Wickstrom <***@comcast.net>

"Work hard, deal honestly, be enterprising, exercise careful judgement,
advertise freely but judiciously." --Sir Thomas Lipton
Damien Neil
2004-11-28 18:50:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Doug Wickstrom
I was frequently told that I had no detectable accent in
Japanese, that when people heard me on the telephone it was
assumed that I was from Hokkaido or Tokyo. If it were true, what
you say, then I could never have pronounced Japanese words so
well. I've heard American and Canadian accents in Japanese.
They are readily apparent, and Antipodean and British Isles
accents are even worse.
Of course you can. Many can. Many Japanese can pronounce
English quite adequately. But many can't.
I think native English speakers have an easier time getting Japanese
pronunciation right than vice-versa. Japanese syllabary is almost a
subset of English. The most prominent exception is the 'r' sound,
which falls somewhere between an English 'l' and 'r'. I think it's
easier for an English speaker to synthesize the Japanese 'r' from the
English syllables than it is for a Japanese speaker to learn two
completely new sounds.

On the perils of shifting syllabaries, a joke from a manga I read
recently:
"You know bruusuree [Bruce Lee]?"
"Yeah."
"Well, who are bruuwan [Blue One] and bruutuu [Blue Two]?"

- Damien
Dorothy J Heydt
2004-11-28 20:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Damien Neil
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Doug Wickstrom
I was frequently told that I had no detectable accent in
Japanese, that when people heard me on the telephone it was
assumed that I was from Hokkaido or Tokyo. If it were true, what
you say, then I could never have pronounced Japanese words so
well. I've heard American and Canadian accents in Japanese.
They are readily apparent, and Antipodean and British Isles
accents are even worse.
Of course you can. Many can. Many Japanese can pronounce
English quite adequately. But many can't.
I think native English speakers have an easier time getting Japanese
pronunciation right than vice-versa. Japanese syllabary is almost a
subset of English. The most prominent exception is the 'r' sound,
which falls somewhere between an English 'l' and 'r'. I think it's
easier for an English speaker to synthesize the Japanese 'r' from the
English syllables than it is for a Japanese speaker to learn two
completely new sounds.
I should think getting those voiceless vowels right would be a
problem too. I have a problem *hearing* those, and I was a
Linguistics major (back in the Middle Pleistocene) and spent a
whole semester just learning to take dictation in languages not
my own.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
Philip Chee
2004-11-29 02:32:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Damien Neil
I think native English speakers have an easier time getting Japanese
pronunciation right than vice-versa. Japanese syllabary is almost a
subset of English. The most prominent exception is the 'r' sound,
which falls somewhere between an English 'l' and 'r'. I think it's
easier for an English speaker to synthesize the Japanese 'r' from the
English syllables than it is for a Japanese speaker to learn two
completely new sounds.
It's a bilabial flap. To teach an anglophone the Japanese 'R' sound just
start with an /L/ sound but end with /R/. Well not totally acccurate but it
gets you started to a more accurate pronounciation.

...Strange. Wikipedia describes it as a aveolar flap, not a bilabial. Now
I'm confused.
Post by Damien Neil
On the perils of shifting syllabaries, a joke from a manga I read
"You know bruusuree [Bruce Lee]?"
"Yeah."
"Well, who are bruuwan [Blue One] and bruutuu [Blue Two]?"
Tee Hee.

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
[ ]Black Holes were created when God divided by zero!
* TagZilla 0.052
Arwel Parry
2004-11-28 11:56:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Doug Wickstrom
"as close to it is they can pronounce" smacks of racism, no?
Should it? Little children of every ethnicity in the world, when
they are just learning to talk, babble every possible sound the
human vocal apparatus is capable of making. After a while they
learn to speak the language their parents speak, and they zoom in
on the particular sounds that are used to produce that language.
By the time they are six they are "expert naive speakers" of
their language. Eventually they get so that there are perfectly
good sounds, part of the inventory of other languages, which they
just can't pronounce any more. It isn't that they didn't learn
how to--it's that they learned how NOT to.
"Naive speakers" is a nice description of little kids! :)

The language I was spoken to at home when I was little was Welsh, and I
didn't normally use English until I started school at 5, though I could
understand the TV perfectly well enough. As a result I have great
difficulty in pronouncing the "sk" sound, as in "ski" and "skin", as
Welsh doesn't have it -- if I'm not deliberately trying to pronounce it,
it comes out as "sg". Similarly we lack "z" -- when my mother was
writing diary entries about a relative who lived in Zambia she'd write
"Sambia" and pronounce it accordingly. On the other hand, using both
Welsh and English gives a wider range of sounds than a monoglot has, and
no doubt helps me pronounce German better since I'd always used "ch" as
a fricative. I usually seemed to avoid confusion between the
pronunciation of Continental/Welsh vowel sounds and English ones, except
in the occasional quick-thinking quiz, since the name of the letter "e"
in English is pronounced like the name of "i" in the other languages.
--
Arwel Parry
http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/
Doug Wickstrom
2004-11-28 21:54:49 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 11:56:03 +0000, in message
Post by Arwel Parry
in the occasional quick-thinking quiz, since the name of the letter "e"
in English is pronounced like the name of "i" in the other languages.
I Swedish, "I" is called "e," and "E" is called "eea." Just a
point.
--
Doug Wickstrom <***@comcast.net>

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." --Mohandas K. Gandhi
Kevin J. Maroney
2004-11-28 05:21:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:03:01 GMT, Doug Wickstrom
Post by Doug Wickstrom
"as close to it is they can pronounce" smacks of racism, no?
No, it isn't racist to assume that people who grow up hearing and
speaking one language will have difficulty pronouncing another,
completely unrelated language.

It is well-known that people of all languages have a hard time
distinguishing among and pronouncing morphemes which are not part of
the language or languages they grew up hearing. The set of readily
distinguishable morphemes is set very early in the human life--tests
have indicated that it occurs before two years of age.

It is very difficult for an American who was not raised hearing French
to hear the difference between the aspirated and unaspirated versions
of an initial "p" (the former is in "Paris", the later in "Peugot").
--
Kevin J. Maroney | ***@panix.com
Games are my entire waking life.
Karl Johanson
2004-11-28 05:51:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin J. Maroney
No, it isn't racist to assume that people who grow up hearing and
speaking one language will have difficulty pronouncing another,
completely unrelated language.
It is well-known that people of all languages have a hard time
distinguishing among and pronouncing morphemes which are not part of
the language or languages they grew up hearing. The set of readily
distinguishable morphemes is set very early in the human life--tests
have indicated that it occurs before two years of age.
It is very difficult for an American who was not raised hearing French
to hear the difference between the aspirated and unaspirated versions
of an initial "p" (the former is in "Paris", the later in "Peugot").
I had trouble with the 'ts' phoneme. I think I'm fairly good at it now,
but the only word UI know which uses it is 'Tsawassen'.

Karl Johanson
Dorothy J Heydt
2004-11-28 06:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karl Johanson
Post by Kevin J. Maroney
No, it isn't racist to assume that people who grow up hearing and
speaking one language will have difficulty pronouncing another,
completely unrelated language.
It is well-known that people of all languages have a hard time
distinguishing among and pronouncing morphemes which are not part of
the language or languages they grew up hearing. The set of readily
distinguishable morphemes is set very early in the human life--tests
have indicated that it occurs before two years of age.
It is very difficult for an American who was not raised hearing French
to hear the difference between the aspirated and unaspirated versions
of an initial "p" (the former is in "Paris", the later in "Peugot").
I had trouble with the 'ts' phoneme. I think I'm fairly good at it now,
but the only word UI know which uses it is 'Tsawassen'.
Can you describe how the 'ts' differs phonologically e.g. from
the borrowed-from-Italian [zz] in "pizza", which I suspect a
large percentage of Americans can pronounce nowadays? Is it
pronouncing it in word-initial position that's difficult?

(I dabbled, while in college, with some Pacific Northwest
languages which have not only the 'ts' phoneme but the 'tl'
phoneme which comes in plain and glottalized....)

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
Karl Johanson
2004-11-28 19:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Karl Johanson
I had trouble with the 'ts' phoneme. I think I'm fairly good at it now,
but the only word UI know which uses it is 'Tsawassen'.
Can you describe how the 'ts' differs phonologically e.g. from
the borrowed-from-Italian [zz] in "pizza", which I suspect a
large percentage of Americans can pronounce nowadays? Is it
pronouncing it in word-initial position that's difficult?
I never thought of 'pizza' having the 'ts' sound as well, but yes I
pronounce it that way & it's the same phoneme as I was taught to use in
'Tsawassen' (although in 'pizza' some people pause very slightly between
the 't' and the 's' sound). I usually heard the term on PA broadcasts on
the Vancouver Island / Mainland ferry, which went from Schwartz Bay To
Tsawassen. The PA announcers varied between saying 'Tawassen' and
'Sawassen'. Now I've just read that some are claiming the natives of the
South Delta reserve pronounce it 'Chewassin'. They're getting recordings
of the native speakers as part of an oral history project.

Karl Johanson
Doug Wickstrom
2004-11-28 07:18:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 05:51:20 GMT, in message
Post by Karl Johanson
I had trouble with the 'ts' phoneme. I think I'm fairly good at it now,
but the only word UI know which uses it is 'Tsawassen'.
You weren't used to it at the beginning of a word; you expected a
vowel to precede it. I doubt you've ever had any difficulty with
"pizza."
--
Doug Wickstrom <***@comcast.net>

"Good my Lord, who steals my purse, steals trash; 'tis something, nothing.
'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands. But he that filches
from me my good name, robs me of that which not enriches him, and makes me
poor indeed." --William Shakespeare, "Othello"
Doug Wickstrom
2004-11-28 07:16:48 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 00:21:14 -0500, in message
Post by Kevin J. Maroney
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:03:01 GMT, Doug Wickstrom
Post by Doug Wickstrom
"as close to it is they can pronounce" smacks of racism, no?
No, it isn't racist to assume that people who grow up hearing and
speaking one language will have difficulty pronouncing another,
completely unrelated language.
It is if you assume an inability, rather than a difficulty.
Anyone who pays attention to the sounds, and has a teacher who
knows how to teach those sounds, can learn to speak any other
language.
--
Doug Wickstrom <***@comcast.net>

"I don't think editors are any crueller than the general populace, they just
have more opportunity." --Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet
Dorothy J Heydt
2004-11-28 07:23:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Wickstrom
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 00:21:14 -0500, in message
Post by Kevin J. Maroney
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:03:01 GMT, Doug Wickstrom
Post by Doug Wickstrom
"as close to it is they can pronounce" smacks of racism, no?
No, it isn't racist to assume that people who grow up hearing and
speaking one language will have difficulty pronouncing another,
completely unrelated language.
It is if you assume an inability, rather than a difficulty.
Anyone who pays attention to the sounds, and has a teacher who
knows how to teach those sounds, can learn to speak any other
language.
It depends on how good your particular linguistic skills are
(which has nothing to do with your genetic or cultural heritage)
and how good the instruction you get is, and how young you get
it (which ditto).

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
2004-11-29 01:13:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin J. Maroney
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:03:01 GMT, Doug Wickstrom
Post by Doug Wickstrom
"as close to it is they can pronounce" smacks of racism, no?
No, it isn't racist to assume that people who grow up hearing and
speaking one language will have difficulty pronouncing another,
completely unrelated language.
It is well-known that people of all languages have a hard time
distinguishing among and pronouncing morphemes which are not part of
the language or languages they grew up hearing. The set of readily
distinguishable morphemes is set very early in the human life--tests
have indicated that it occurs before two years of age.
There's also a meme floating around special ed types that there is
less dyslexia in Italy than in English-speaking countries because
Italian phonemes are spelled like they sound, and there's fewer of
'em.

Not sure of the accuracy of that particular meme, but it does kind of
make sense, if the assertion about Italian phonemes (the phoneme is
the smallest phonetic unit in speech) is correct.

jrw
Dorothy J Heydt
2004-11-29 05:08:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joyce Reynolds-Ward
There's also a meme floating around special ed types that there is
less dyslexia in Italy than in English-speaking countries because
Italian phonemes are spelled like they sound, and there's fewer of
'em.
The technical term, back when I was working on that kind of thing,
is that the phoneme-grapheme correspondence in Italian is simpler
than in English.
Post by Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Not sure of the accuracy of that particular meme, but it does kind of
make sense, if the assertion about Italian phonemes (the phoneme is
the smallest phonetic unit in speech) is correct.
The *number* of phonemes in a given language, while it does vary
from one language to another, isn't that important. Your basic
human is capable of mastering how ever many his parents' language
has, by the age of six.

It's the phoneme-grapheme correspondences that can make it
difficult. Those in English are rather--multiplex, let's say,
where any given phoneme can be written several ways and many a
combination of graphemes can correspond to several different
phonemes, depending on context.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com

David Dyer-Bennet
2004-11-28 07:02:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Wickstrom
On 27 Nov 2004 16:46:56 -0500, in message
Post by Keith F. Lynch
There's a office at the Vatican whose job it is to invent Latin
words or phrases to express new terms such as "disk drive" or
"spam" ...
For words like "spam" that aren't built on more basic words, why not
just borrow the word directly? I believe all other languages do.
That is, I suspect the Japanese word for unsoliticed bulk email is
"spam," or as close to it as they can pronounce.
Ahem.
"as close to it is they can pronounce" smacks of racism, no?
As close to it as can be written using traditional Japanese
orthography is what you mean, isn't it? I assure you, there is
nothing preventing the Japanese from pronouncing whatever they
like. It's just that the way of representing certain
combinations of sounds results in something that to native
speakers of other languages tends to bring on attacks of whimsy.
I'd perfectly casually talk about distinctions in vowels Americans
don't hear, and sounds they can't pronounce (recognizing that some of
them have learned to; just not many). So I'd probably say the same
thing about Japanese, Russians, or whoever; except I know even less
about their phoneme issues than I do about Americans, so I'm less
likely to have cause to say it.

Since I'd casually say it about us as quick as about anybody else, it
doesn't strike me as basically racist. "American" and "Japanese" and
such are cultural labels as well as racial labels -- and I tend to
reject the concept of race anyway.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-***@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
Dorothy J Heydt
2004-11-28 07:17:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
I'd perfectly casually talk about distinctions in vowels Americans
don't hear, and sounds they can't pronounce (recognizing that some of
them have learned to; just not many). So I'd probably say the same
thing about Japanese, Russians, or whoever; except I know even less
about their phoneme issues than I do about Americans, so I'm less
likely to have cause to say it.
Here's one for Russian, e.g.: they don't have an initial 'h'
sound. I remember one of my professors, whose given name was
Harvey, showing the class the envelope of a letter he'd received
from someone in the Soviet Union. The envelope was typed in
Cyrillic characters so there was no mistake: it was addressed to
"Garvey" Pitkin. And since he was a professor of linguistics, he
proceeded to point out all the implications of what phonemes
different languages have and don't have.
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
Since I'd casually say it about us as quick as about anybody else, it
doesn't strike me as basically racist. "American" and "Japanese" and
such are cultural labels as well as racial labels -- and I tend to
reject the concept of race anyway.
What you said.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
Arwel Parry
2004-11-28 11:42:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Dyer-Bennet
I'd perfectly casually talk about distinctions in vowels Americans
don't hear, and sounds they can't pronounce (recognizing that some of
them have learned to; just not many). So I'd probably say the same
thing about Japanese, Russians, or whoever; except I know even less
about their phoneme issues than I do about Americans, so I'm less
likely to have cause to say it.
Here's one for Russian, e.g.: they don't have an initial 'h'
sound. I remember one of my professors, whose given name was
Harvey, showing the class the envelope of a letter he'd received
from someone in the Soviet Union. The envelope was typed in
Cyrillic characters so there was no mistake: it was addressed to
"Garvey" Pitkin. And since he was a professor of linguistics, he
proceeded to point out all the implications of what phonemes
different languages have and don't have.
Indeed, and the opposition in the Great Patriotic War was led by Mr
Gitler.
--
Arwel Parry
http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/
Karl Johanson
2004-11-27 23:40:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
There's a office at the Vatican whose job it is to invent Latin
words or phrases to express new terms such as "disk drive" or
"spam" ...
For words like "spam" that aren't built on more basic words, why not
just borrow the word directly? I believe all other languages do.
That is, I suspect the Japanese word for unsoliticed bulk email is
"spam," or as close to it as they can pronounce.
I often say that 'SPAM' is an accronym for 'Send Plenty A Mail', but I
made it up after I'd heard the term.

Karl Johanson
Dave Weingart
2004-11-27 22:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Karl Johanson
point rather than three. Rather like listing FIWOLFIJAGDHGAFIADNQ as a
listing of 'random' letters, which fans would tend to find quite easy to
memorize.
I read that off to Hal and he said, "Yup."
Of course, I'd get it wrong because I'd be expecting the first set of
letters to be FIAWOL.

--
73 de Dave Weingart KA2ESK Loyalty oaths. Secret searches. No-fly
mailto:***@liii.com lists. Detention without legal recourse.
http://www.weingart.net/ Who won the cold war, again?
ICQ 57055207 -- Politicklers
Karl Johanson
2004-11-27 23:43:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Weingart
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Karl Johanson
point rather than three. Rather like listing FIWOLFIJAGDHGAFIADNQ as a
listing of 'random' letters, which fans would tend to find quite easy to
memorize.
I read that off to Hal and he said, "Yup."
Of course, I'd get it wrong because I'd be expecting the first set of
letters to be FIAWOL.
Doh!. Ah... um. My Computer must be running low on capital 'a's. I'll
have to get someone to email me some, or go to a web site to cut & paste
some from their pages into my future posts.

Karl Johanson
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-11-28 18:50:50 UTC
Permalink
"Karl Johanson" <***@shaw.ca> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:mU4qd.355084$***@pd7tw1no:

[much snipped in movie routine quote]
Post by Karl Johanson
CENTURION: Now, write it out a hundred times.
BRIAN: Yes, sir. Thank you, sir. Hail Caesar, sir.
You omitted the, er, motivation that the Centurion gives Brian here.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Keith F. Lynch
2004-11-27 22:06:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karl Johanson
... sure enough when the test came the teacher used that section,
confident that none of us had read it. When he came to hand out
the results of the exam he got half-way through the list then threw
the rest of the papers at us and stormed out of the room.
Bad old students reading & studying :)
ObSF -- or at least obF: Last week's episode of The Simpsons, on
which Bart unexpectedly gets a perfect grade. His father accuses him
of cheating by copying off another student or by studying hard. The
teacher reveals that she forgot to roll up the map at the front of
the room before giving the test on state capitals, and that everyone
scored 100. (No, this isn't a spoiler. Enjoyment of the episode in
no way depends on not knowing those facts.)
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
mike weber
2004-11-27 12:27:07 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:50:43 GMT, "Karl Johanson"
Post by Karl Johanson
I brought a programmable calculator into grade 11 math once (1977). We
were doing a test on the quadratic formula, so we were allowed to use
calculators, but our teacher didn't realize I had a programmable (my
parents got it Hong Kong). My calculator would allow you to write 176
character programs with 3 different variables and store them on magnetic
strip cards. I aced the test in five minutes & had time to finish the
homework for other classes I hadn't done the night before because I'd
spent 2 hours figuring out how to do the quadratic equation with 176
bits.
I just ran across this on a web page: "You may use any type of
calculator you wish on the test, unless the lights dim when you switch
it on."
--
=============================================================
"They put manure in his well and they made him talk to lawyers!"
-- Cat Ballou
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
Keith F. Lynch
2004-11-27 22:15:32 UTC
Permalink
I just ran across this on a web page: "You may use any type of
calculator you wish on the test, unless the lights dim when you
switch it on."
http://google.com/groups?selm=990405.142249.3f6.rnr.w165w%40krypton.rain.com
contains

I just recalled a tale of a college exam where you were allowed any
sort of "test aid" that you could carry. They had to re-write the
rule after a rather husky person carried in a skinny grad student. :-)
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Tom Galloway
2004-11-28 03:36:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
I just recalled a tale of a college exam where you were allowed any
sort of "test aid" that you could carry. They had to re-write the
rule after a rather husky person carried in a skinny grad student. :-)
The similar story I heard was about a Caltech physics final, which like
most (all?) Caltech exams was take home with an honor system. The instructions
said the test takers could "use your course textbook or Feynman", the latter
refering to the classic Feynman lectures on physics books.

However, one student read this, realized the other way it could be
interpreted. So he went to Dr. Feynman's office at Caltech, showed him the
instructions, and asked him to do the exam. Feynman was supposedly delighted
at this, did the exam, and fortunately it did get an A. The instruction was
changed on subsequent exams to be more specific.

Btw, Feynman will be one of four scientists to be honored with US postage
stamps in April. The other three are John von Neumann, Barbara McClintock,
and Josiah Gibbs. Pictures of the stamps are at:

http://prn.newscom.com/cgi-bin/pub/s?f=PRN/prnpub&p1=20041105/DCF007-b&xtag=PRN-prnphotos-41928&redir=preview&tr=1&row=1

Pity that the Feynman photo isn't what I'd consider a good one. Bad angle for
a stamp picture with too much of his face in shadow.

tyg ***@Panix.com
--
--Yes, the .sig has changed
Karl Johanson
2004-11-28 04:40:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Galloway
Btw, Feynman will be one of four scientists to be honored with US postage
stamps in April. The other three are John von Neumann, Barbara
McClintock,
and Josiah Gibbs.
I just mailed a letter with a Winnie the Pooh stamp today. Those other
folks you mention are cool too though.

Karl Johanson
mike weber
2004-11-28 12:06:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 04:40:25 GMT, "Karl Johanson"
Post by Karl Johanson
I just mailed a letter with a Winnie the Pooh stamp today. Those other
folks you mention are cool too though.
The Disney perversion or the real Pooh?

The trailer i saw with "The Incredibles" for "Winnie the Pooh's
Heffalump Adventure" would almost seem to justify advocating the
banning and burning of a film.
--
=============================================================
"They put manure in his well and they made him talk to lawyers!"
-- Cat Ballou
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
Sea Wasp
2004-11-28 13:23:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 04:40:25 GMT, "Karl Johanson"
Post by Karl Johanson
I just mailed a letter with a Winnie the Pooh stamp today. Those other
folks you mention are cool too though.
The Disney perversion or the real Pooh?
The original Disney Pooh adaptations weren't bad. It's when they
started making their own that suckitude began to rule supreme.

This of course bodes exceedingly ill for "Toy Story 3".
Post by mike weber
The trailer i saw with "The Incredibles" for "Winnie the Pooh's
Heffalump Adventure" would almost seem to justify advocating the
banning and burning of a film.
"Chicken Little" ranks right up there with it for nausea-inducing
trailers.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/
Karl Johanson
2004-11-28 19:19:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by mike weber
Post by Karl Johanson
I just mailed a letter with a Winnie the Pooh stamp today. Those other
folks you mention are cool too though.
The Disney perversion or the real Pooh?
Had a look at the other stamps in the bunch. All are colour. Some are
coloured versions done with the characters looking similar to Milne's
drawings. One is of what's his name with the live bear cub that Winnie
was apparently modeled after, and one of 'red shirt' Pooh.

Speaking of Pooh and the Japanese language, If you get a chance to see
the Japanese localization of the CD "Ready to Read with Pooh", Pooh has
what I think is a very un Pooh like voice. The voice actor for Eeyore is
quite good though.

Karl Johanson
Damien R. Sullivan
2004-11-28 06:51:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Galloway
The similar story I heard was about a Caltech physics final, which like
most (all?) Caltech exams was take home with an honor system. The instructions
I just asked around, and there were a couple reports of in-class or
effectively in-class ("This is a take-home exam. You have 3 hours. Oh, by
the way, it's due back 3 hours from now.") exams. But most were proper
overnight or longer take-home exams, and I think everything I took was. Some
were closed book, some were open-notes, some open-books, open-notes, etc.
Many were longer than any reasonable in-class exam could be.

Particularly infamous were the unlimited resource, infinite-time (well, due
back in a week or something) exams.
Post by Tom Galloway
However, one student read this, realized the other way it could be
interpreted. So he went to Dr. Feynman's office at Caltech, showed him the
instructions, and asked him to do the exam. Feynman was supposedly delighted
It certainly sounds like something the Feynman of his autobiographies would
enjoy.
Post by Tom Galloway
http://prn.newscom.com/cgi-bin/pub/s?f=PRN/prnpub&p1=20041105/DCF007-b&xtag=PRN-prnphotos-41928&redir=preview&tr=1&row=1
Pity that the Feynman photo isn't what I'd consider a good one. Bad angle for
a stamp picture with too much of his face in shadow.
I note he's the only one to get a young photo. Hardly recognize him, if
you're used to the Old Feynman. (I first saw him on Nova in 1983.)

-xx- Damien X-)
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-11-28 18:50:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Galloway
Btw, Feynman will be one of four scientists to be honored with US
postage stamps in April. The other three are John von Neumann, Barbara
http://prn.newscom.com/cgi-bin/pub/s?f=PRN/prnpub&p1=20041105/DCF007-
b&xtag=PRN-prnphotos-41928&redir=preview&tr=1&row=1
Post by Tom Galloway
Pity that the Feynman photo isn't what I'd consider a good one. Bad
angle for a stamp picture with too much of his face in shadow.
I would have preferred a picture of him playing the bongos.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Dorothy J Heydt
2004-11-28 20:34:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Galloway
Post by Tom Galloway
Btw, Feynman will be one of four scientists to be honored with US
postage stamps in April. The other three are John von Neumann, Barbara
http://prn.newscom.com/cgi-bin/pub/s?f=PRN/prnpub&p1=20041105/DCF007-
b&xtag=PRN-prnphotos-41928&redir=preview&tr=1&row=1
Post by Tom Galloway
Pity that the Feynman photo isn't what I'd consider a good one. Bad
angle for a stamp picture with too much of his face in shadow.
I would have preferred a picture of him playing the bongos.
ITYM la frigideira.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
***@kithrup.com
Lis Carey
2004-11-27 10:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Lofstrom
Prompted by the discussion of education and smart kids in other threads.
When I was a young sprat, I read incessantly, and hated having my
reading interrupted by something as boring as school. So I'd bring my
"outside" books to school and hide them inside the textbook so I could
read while appearing to pay attention. I got in trouble for this a
number of times.
What about y'all?
I did that in a few classes.

One English teacher caught me, asked questions, determined that I'd
already read the book we were covering in class, and gave me a different
assignment. After that, he always asked if I'd read what we were doing
next, and it wasn't the last time I got a different assignment.

Lis Carey
Chris Malme
2004-11-27 11:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lis Carey
Post by Karen Lofstrom
Prompted by the discussion of education and smart kids in other threads.
When I was a young sprat, I read incessantly, and hated having my
reading interrupted by something as boring as school. So I'd bring my
"outside" books to school and hide them inside the textbook so I could
read while appearing to pay attention. I got in trouble for this a
number of times.
What about y'all?
I did that in a few classes.
One English teacher caught me, asked questions, determined that I'd
already read the book we were covering in class, and gave me a different
assignment. After that, he always asked if I'd read what we were doing
next, and it wasn't the last time I got a different assignment.
I had problems with some of the short fiction my English teacher was
introducing us to - I far preferred my crime stories to what he was
encouraging us to read. However, in the end he won me round, and I started
reading and enjoying his "weird stuff" - Philip K. Dick, Ray Bradbury......
--
Chris
Minstrel's Hall of Filk - http://www.filklore.com/
Filklore Music Store - http://www.filklore.co.uk/
To contact me, please use form at http://www.filklore.com/contact.phtml
Tom Galloway
2004-11-27 13:20:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Lofstrom
When I was a young sprat, I read incessantly, and hated having my
reading interrupted by something as boring as school. So I'd bring my
"outside" books to school and hide them inside the textbook so I could
read while appearing to pay attention. I got in trouble for this a
number of times.
What about y'all?
I was less subtle, since at least once a year a teacher who was new or
otherwise hadn't heard about me would catch me doing this. I'd then say
something like "In the last ten minutes you've covered X, Y, and Z. In
the next ten minutes, you're going to cover A, B, and C. Can I go back to
my book now?". Which would result in my mother getting another phone call
to come to the principal's office to discuss my behavior.

Admittedly, there were times when a teacher would admit they were wrong
about my style. Our math coach ran practice sessions by reading off problems
from previous years' contest tests and having the team work them out at the
board. More often than not, I'd just think and then write down an
answer. She'd get on me for not showing my work. Until my junior year when
we went to a new contest which had a section where they'd show a problem on
a screen and the first three contestants to get the correct answer would get
3-2-1 points respectively. There were three flights of seven questions each,
with one student from each school competing in each flight.

I got 3 firsts, 2 seconds, and a third in my flight's seven questions
(somewhat helped by being in the second flight, and schools put who they
thought was best in either the first or third flights). That scored 14 points,
which, well, singlehandedly beat every other school's three person combined
totals. And they added the points to the average score of the team on the
written test, which had a maximum value of 40. So, particularly combined
with the 5 points our first flight contestant got, our 19 points added to
our average on the written test pretty much guaranteed us the team
championship.

Suddenly, my being able to do problems quickly without having to write down
my work was considered a significant asset. :-)

tyg ***@panix.com
--
--Yes, the .sig has changed
SAMK
2004-11-28 02:51:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Lofstrom
Prompted by the discussion of education and smart kids in other threads.
When I was a young sprat, I read incessantly, and hated having my reading
interrupted by something as boring as school. So I'd bring my "outside"
books to school and hide them inside the textbook so I could read while
appearing to pay attention. I got in trouble for this a number of times.
What about y'all?
I often did this. In fourth grade math class, my teacher ignored it,
because she didn't want another go-round with my mother. In Freshman
year of High School, my English teacher started to harass me because I
was reading instead of paying attention to the rather repititious
grammar lesson, and by the time he got done with his spiel, I had found
which problem we were on, figured out the answer, and promptly gave it
as soon as he shut up. He left me alone after that. He also
disbelieved me when I mentioned I had read _David Copperfield_ over the
weekend, until we did an in-class reading speed test. 1117 words per
minute, with 80% comprehension--I often skip chapter titles.

Sophmore year, the English teacher was the JV basketball coach, and was
all buddy-buddy with the class clowns. He thought to get to me by
announcing that if I couldn't answer the grammar question, he would take
my book and read it aloud to the class. I offered it to him-- _The
Hobbit_, page 97, answered his question, and was left alone the rest of
the year.

SAMK
Thomas Yan
2004-11-28 16:33:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by SAMK
disbelieved me when I mentioned I had read _David Copperfield_ over
the weekend, until we did an in-class reading speed test. 1117 words
per minute, with 80% comprehension--I often skip chapter titles.
My god, I think that is about 3 to 4 times as fast as I read. I am so
jealous. My metric is: about one page per minute. Of course,
depending on formatting, one page can be anywhere from about 200 to
400 words.
mike weber
2004-11-29 00:38:16 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 11:33:24 -0500, Thomas Yan <***@comcast.net>
typed
Post by Thomas Yan
Post by SAMK
disbelieved me when I mentioned I had read _David Copperfield_ over
the weekend, until we did an in-class reading speed test. 1117 words
per minute, with 80% comprehension--I often skip chapter titles.
My god, I think that is about 3 to 4 times as fast as I read. I am so
jealous. My metric is: about one page per minute. Of course,
depending on formatting, one page can be anywhere from about 200 to
400 words.
That (1000wpm with 80 to 90% comprehension) is about how fast i read;
when i was in junior high school, my mother was teaching remedial
reading at another school. She measured my speed/comprehension a
couple of times using new techniques and/or devices she got hold of.

I have never even vaguely considered taking one of those "Triple your
reading speed!" courses. I don't believe they work, which would mean
it would be wasted money.

On the other hand, it's even scarier toi think that it *might* work...
--
=============================================================
"They put manure in his well and they made him talk to lawyers!"
-- Cat Ballou
mike weber <***@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
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