indefinable versus undefinable

Post by Purl Gurl
"Through the centuries humans have attempted to identify those rules --- to
define something which at its very core may be essentially indefinable."
Ok, which is your choice for his last word, indefinable or undefinable?
Please explain why you prefer your personal choice.

Indefinable means I cannot define it.

Undefinable means it cannot be defined (by me or anyone else).

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Jim Lawton

2006-02-08 07:47:16 UTC

Indefinable means I cannot define it.
Undefinable means it cannot be defined (by me or anyone else).

Your definitions? Here :-

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/undefinable

they seem to be a little confused :-
===
undefinable - not capable of being precisely or readily described; not
easily put into words; "an indefinable feeling of terror"; "an abstract
concept that seems indefinable"
===

--
Jim
a Yorkshire polymoth

Purl Gurl

2006-02-09 00:12:06 UTC

Indefinable means I cannot define it.
Undefinable means it cannot be defined (by me or anyone else).

Your definitions? Here :-
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/undefinable
they seem to be a little confused :-
undefinable - not capable of being precisely or readily described; not
easily put into words; "an indefinable feeling of terror"; "an abstract
concept that seems indefinable"

Rather curious, yes?

To me, "indefinable" means a thing cannot be defined.

To me, "undefinable" suggests a definition has been removed.

This is for the first case, we cannot define a thing. For the
second case, we _did_ define but that definition is now gone.

We know we cannot define "this," but we thought we could
define "that" only to discover our "that" definition is incorrect.

My spell checker does not recognize "undefinable."

Purl Gurl

Jim Lawton

2006-02-09 09:43:58 UTC

Indefinable means I cannot define it.
Undefinable means it cannot be defined (by me or anyone else).

Rather curious, yes?
To me, "indefinable" means a thing cannot be defined.
To me, "undefinable" suggests a definition has been removed.
This is for the first case, we cannot define a thing. For the
second case, we _did_ define but that definition is now gone.
We know we cannot define "this," but we thought we could
define "that" only to discover our "that" definition is incorrect.
My spell checker does not recognize "undefinable."

Until now I always considered "undefinable" to be a rather dubious
synonym for "indefinable". I have now gone on to think that a thing (say
a line on a map) can be undefined - not there - or indefinite - not
clear.

--
Jim
a Yorkshire polymoth

Purl Gurl

2006-02-09 18:04:12 UTC

Indefinable means I cannot define it.
Undefinable means it cannot be defined (by me or anyone else).

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/undefinable
they seem to be a little confused :-
undefinable - not capable of being precisely or readily described; not
easily put into words; "an indefinable feeling of terror"; "an abstract
concept that seems indefinable"

Rather curious, yes?

Yours makes good sense. Another notion which would be included
in your definition is gravity. We know of gravity but have yet to truly
define gravity; undefinable.

This seems a classic example of a dictionary definition which
is vague, obfuscated, perhaps even wrong.

Rather humorous dictionaries define "undefinable" using the
term "indefinable" which is rather circular logic.

Readers will also discover prefixes "in" and "un" to enjoy
the same definition within many dictionaries. Looking at
Meriam-Webster, this dictionary does add a distinction
of "in" as a prefix before certain letters using variants "il"
"im" and "ir" for select cases. For "un" Merriam-Webster
indicates usage as a prefix before adjectives for their
main entry definition.

Confusion, indeed!

Purl Gurl

Jim Lawton

2006-02-09 18:22:26 UTC

Indefinable means I cannot define it.
Undefinable means it cannot be defined (by me or anyone else).

Rather curious, yes?

Yours makes good sense. Another notion which would be included
in your definition is gravity. We know of gravity but have yet to truly
define gravity; undefinable.

So we assume that one day it might be defined. If this were not the
case, then you are saying it would be indefinable. It's an interesting
nuance, which I shall bear in mind. Thanks.

--
Jim
a Yorkshire polymoth

Purl Gurl

2006-02-09 18:36:43 UTC

Yours makes good sense. Another notion which would be included
in your definition is gravity. We know of gravity but have yet to truly
define gravity; undefinable.

So we assume that one day it might be defined. If this were not the
case, then you are saying it would be indefinable. It's an interesting
nuance, which I shall bear in mind. Thanks.

Precisely. We know gravity can be defined but we have yet to
develop correct terms and have yet to string those terms together
in a correct manner; undefinable for now but not indefinable.

Your "nuance" is much related to Phil's "IQ Test" thread.
Typical thinking makes little distinction between "indefinable"
and "undefinable" while atypical thinking notes high contrast.

Nuance and subtle usage are two which lead to much debate
between language lawyers and creative writers; typical, atypical.

Purl Gurl

Chess One

2006-02-14 01:33:34 UTC

Post by Purl Gurl
Your "nuance" is much related to Phil's "IQ Test" thread.
Typical thinking makes little distinction between "indefinable"
and "undefinable" while atypical thinking notes high contrast.
Nuance and subtle usage are two which lead to much debate
between language lawyers and creative writers; typical, atypical.

Musüka
Musüka
Take the manitc.
We shall depart*
But we shall not die.

*said to refer to a loss of consciousness.

These are words that no one now living has any memory of any connection.
//Margaret Mead, after Ruth Benedict.

These anthropologists revealed that these terms were not an understanding
based on outer records, but an inner understanding. That it was empiric, and
an experience not available to external understanding. And sadly, if this
type of understanding goes undistinguished in our time.

Of course the paradox or Benedict is that she did record what was lost as
recorder for Official Record, but also noted that restating the record did
not of itself render an understanding to what these California people - the
Maringa-Mühiatnim-Atü'aviatum - actually experienced as nuanced
consciousness.

What can a purification ceremony convey to modern men?

Tu-iv [images, spirits of dead things, evil]
will go away in flame
Tu-iv will go away in smoke.
Tu-iv have departed;
They have gone away in the burning.

What this represents is acquired through days of preparation, then the
participation of the dance and the singing.

When I wrote here some time ago about being alone in the mountains for some
days, with no distractions at all - no electricity nor water, nor books nor
nothing, I discovered what a singular experience that was - and in trying to
relate it, dicovered that no one could own a similar experience and so speak
to it other than from ideas or from what they had 'understood' from the
experience of other people.

We have lost the sense of this very thing in human experience, and do not
even honour it with a name - instead supplant the name of its Idea instead
of one's own experience, and that! that is where the nuanced word opens like
a flower in a new world.

Were I utterly such as that!

Cordialy, Phil

Post by Purl Gurl
Purl Gurl

CDB

2006-02-14 03:26:12 UTC

"Chess One" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:OraIf.4011$***@trndny01...

[...]

Post by Chess One
When I wrote here some time ago about being alone in the mountains
for some days, with no distractions at all - no electricity nor
water, nor books nor nothing, I discovered what a singular
experience that was - and in trying to relate it, dicovered that no
one could own a similar experience and so speak to it other than
from ideas or from what they had 'understood' from the experience of
other people.

Did the experience include Panic fear? Learning about that was one of
the reasons I used to go on solo canoe trips. Best way I found to
deal with it was to make myself empty and let it blow through me.

OBanotherthread, it strikes me that this fear may be related to the
fear of God that is not the fear "of commerce" arising from the
prospect of punishment: your hair bristles up and your skin burns with
cold because you have perceived that there is something else present,
aware of you, very great.

Chess One

2006-02-14 13:18:12 UTC

[...]

Post by Chess One
When I wrote here some time ago about being alone in the mountains for
some days, with no distractions at all - no electricity nor water, nor
books nor nothing, I discovered what a singular experience that was - and
in trying to relate it, dicovered that no one could own a similar
experience and so speak to it other than from ideas or from what they had
'understood' from the experience of other people.

Yeah, very much like that!

OBanotherthread, it strikes me that this fear may be related to the fear
of God that is not the fear "of commerce" arising from the prospect of
punishment: your hair bristles up and your skin burns with cold because
you have perceived that there is something else present, aware of you,
very great.

What an interesting point. Van der Post writes about 2 types of knowing,
knowing of something, and being known by something. Did you ever read
Glastonbury Romance by Powys? It begins like a Hardy novel, but then you
read a point of view from the tree's perspective :)

Fear seems to indicate a performance threshold too. Its true in chess, e.g.,
that there comes a point when you voluntarily enter the unknown since it is
objectively indicated as best play, rather than what you feel comfortable
with, and you have to either perform at a higher level by accepting that you
need to negotiate these new factors and patterns in order to /win/, rather
than sticking to the known but insufficient response and playing safe in
order not to /lose/.

I never canoed, but mountain climbed. I note your use of the word Panic
above. Quite literally, this means a fear of nature, or that aspect of
nature which seems evident to you when you actually let it in, and which
seems quite eerie in fact - even though the strange feeling comes from quite
ordinary things.

Phil

CDB

2006-02-14 16:11:27 UTC

[...]

What an interesting point. Van der Post writes about 2 types of
knowing, knowing of something, and being known by something.

Interesting indeed. Is this in a book? I see by googling that there
are also CDs of talks with him. Do you remember the title? (Other
than "Sir")

Post by Chess One
Did you ever read Glastonbury Romance by Powys? It begins like a
Hardy novel, but then you read a point of view from the tree's
perspective :)

No, but I see the local library has copies (the review says it's his
best work). I'll pick one up on my next book run. I wonder if Le
Guin's short piece "The Direction of the Road", written from such a
point of view, was written with that novel in mind.

Post by Chess One
Fear seems to indicate a performance threshold too. Its true in
chess, e.g., that there comes a point when you voluntarily enter the
unknown since it is objectively indicated as best play, rather than
what you feel comfortable with, and you have to either perform at a
higher level by accepting that you need to negotiate these new
factors and patterns in order to /win/, rather than sticking to the
known but insufficient response and playing safe in order not to
/lose/.

A strange land for me. I've only ever played the game en famille,
except for occasional humiliations at the hands of a friend who is
much better than I, and cruel. But I see what you mean, darkly.*

Post by Chess One
I never canoed, but mountain climbed. I note your use of the word
Panic above. Quite literally, this means a fear of nature, or that
aspect of nature which seems evident to you when you actually let it
in, and which seems quite eerie in fact - even though the strange
feeling comes from quite ordinary things.

Cue Haldane.
___________________
*OByetanotherthread: Ha! You think it's cruel to keep them darkies
under glass, you should see where they put the widders. Just because
they have mites.

Chess One

2006-02-14 20:30:10 UTC

[...]

What an interesting point. Van der Post writes about 2 types of knowing,
knowing of something, and being known by something.

Interesting indeed. Is this in a book? I see by googling that there are
also CDs of talks with him. Do you remember the title? (Other than "Sir")

Sir?

It is in a book - but which book is it? there is a collection of essays,
where it might be. I also met him and talked about his biography of Jung
with him, but I am certain it is written somewhere. many of his titles are
now OOP

Post by Chess One
Did you ever read Glastonbury Romance by Powys? It begins like a Hardy
novel, but then you read a point of view from the tree's perspective :)

No, but I see the local library has copies (the review says it's his best
work).

In Romance genre, maybe. Porius is also a contender.

I'll pick one up on my next book run. I wonder if Le Guin's short piece
"The Direction of the Road", written from such a point of view, was
written with that novel in mind.

Interesting. I don't know the answer.

Post by Chess One
Fear seems to indicate a performance threshold too. Its true in chess,
e.g., that there comes a point when you voluntarily enter the unknown
since it is objectively indicated as best play, rather than what you feel
comfortable with, and you have to either perform at a higher level by
accepting that you need to negotiate these new factors and patterns in
order to /win/, rather than sticking to the known but insufficient
response and playing safe in order not to /lose/.

A strange land for me. I've only ever played the game en famille, except
for occasional humiliations at the hands of a friend who is much better
than I, and cruel. But I see what you mean, darkly.*

Yes, there is a threshold to cross to real creativity, rather than playing
'correctly', which of itself, and like all else, has few prospects.

Phil

Post by Chess One
I never canoed, but mountain climbed. I note your use of the word Panic
above. Quite literally, this means a fear of nature, or that aspect of
nature which seems evident to you when you actually let it in, and which
seems quite eerie in fact - even though the strange feeling comes from
quite ordinary things.

Cue Haldane.
___________________
*OByetanotherthread: Ha! You think it's cruel to keep them darkies under
glass, you should see where they put the widders. Just because they have
mites.

CDB

2006-02-14 21:18:04 UTC

[...]

Post by CDB

Post by Chess One
What an interesting point. Van der Post writes about 2 types of
knowing, knowing of something, and being known by something.

Interesting indeed. Is this in a book? I see by googling that
there are also CDs of talks with him. Do you remember the title?
(Other than "Sir")

Sir?

Sir Laurens. Sorry.

[...]

Purl Gurl

2006-02-15 06:16:16 UTC

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

2006-02-15 08:38:54 UTC

X-No-Archive: yes

Post by Purl Gurl
My perspective is a move from conscious mind
to unconscious mind, more specifically, turning
off sensory input then allowing your mind to
free fall think; unbridled imagination.

Usually caused by drink.

Post by Purl Gurl
For my context, to switch off what we identify
as "me" or to switch off active self-control of
thinking; the alter assumes control.

Usually caused by drink.

Post by Purl Gurl
Death, in my view, is turning off all then releasing
our spirit which is a collective "thing" of our life
experiences, but cannot be accessed by the "me"
within our minds.

Usually caused by drink.

Post by Purl Gurl
Personally, I much look forward to dreaming and do prepare
myself before each sleep to participate in dreams, to actively
remember dreams and to reflect on dreams; deep messages.

Usually caused by drink.

Post by Purl Gurl
Modern man is not capable of dream walking.

Usually due to drink.

Post by Purl Gurl
For the few, unconscious is not such. Unconscious is an alter
state, a state of turning off the outside then focus on the inside.

Usually due to drink.

Post by Chess One
These are words that no one now living has any memory of any connection.
//Margaret Mead, after Ruth Benedict.
These anthropologists revealed that these terms were not an understanding
based on outer records, but an inner understanding. That it was empiric, and
an experience not available to external understanding. And sadly, if this
type of understanding goes undistinguished in our time.

Usually due to drink.

Post by Purl Gurl
Undistinguished by the many, touched by the few.

Usually drink.

Post by Purl Gurl
The many appear to be fearful of introspection, an activity which
creates a connection to true self. Becoming comfortable with
true self leads to strong self-confidence, strong self-control.

Drink.

Post by Purl Gurl
A Choctaw elder told me, "People go to a hospital to die."

Firewater victim.

Post by Purl Gurl
Modern man is no longer in touch with self, no longer in touch with his spirit,
can no longer purify self, can no longer heal self, can no longer see self.
Modern man is polluted by and controlled by externalities.

Drink tortoises all the way down.

--
James Follett. Novelist. (G1LXP) http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk
The Silent Vulcan trilogy, starting with 'The Temple of the Winds', on BBC7
Sundays 1840.

Chess One

2006-02-15 19:33:10 UTC

Post by JF
X-No-Archive: yes

Post by Purl Gurl
My perspective is a move from conscious mind
to unconscious mind, more specifically, turning
off sensory input then allowing your mind to
free fall think; unbridled imagination.

Usually caused by drink.

You trying out for Redneck of the Year*?

What you miss, mister, is why there is a bunch of trouble in the world.

Phil

*in case that's too American, it means no-nuthin reactionary

Post by JF

Post by Purl Gurl
For my context, to switch off what we identify
as "me" or to switch off active self-control of
thinking; the alter assumes control.

Usually caused by drink.

Post by Purl Gurl
Death, in my view, is turning off all then releasing
our spirit which is a collective "thing" of our life
experiences, but cannot be accessed by the "me"
within our minds.

Usually caused by drink.

Post by Purl Gurl
Personally, I much look forward to dreaming and do prepare
myself before each sleep to participate in dreams, to actively
remember dreams and to reflect on dreams; deep messages.

Usually caused by drink.

Post by Purl Gurl
Modern man is not capable of dream walking.

Usually due to drink.

Post by Purl Gurl
For the few, unconscious is not such. Unconscious is an alter
state, a state of turning off the outside then focus on the inside.

Usually due to drink.

Post by Chess One
These are words that no one now living has any memory of any connection.
//Margaret Mead, after Ruth Benedict.
These anthropologists revealed that these terms were not an
understanding
based on outer records, but an inner understanding. That it was empiric, and
an experience not available to external understanding. And sadly, if this
type of understanding goes undistinguished in our time.

Usually due to drink.

Post by Purl Gurl
Undistinguished by the many, touched by the few.

Usually drink.

Drink.

Post by Purl Gurl
A Choctaw elder told me, "People go to a hospital to die."

Firewater victim.

Drink tortoises all the way down.
--
James Follett. Novelist. (G1LXP) http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk
The Silent Vulcan trilogy, starting with 'The Temple of the Winds', on BBC7
Sundays 1840.

R H Draney

2006-02-15 22:09:17 UTC

Post by JF

Post by Purl Gurl
My perspective is a move from conscious mind
to unconscious mind, more specifically, turning
off sensory input then allowing your mind to
free fall think; unbridled imagination.

Usually caused by drink.

You trying out for Redneck of the Year*?

Published Author's post sounded to me like he was channeling Riggs, with just a
hint of piddy....r

Chess One

2006-02-15 22:30:52 UTC

Post by R H Draney

Post by JF

Post by Purl Gurl
My perspective is a move from conscious mind
to unconscious mind, more specifically, turning
off sensory input then allowing your mind to
free fall think; unbridled imagination.

Usually caused by drink.

You trying out for Redneck of the Year*?

Published Author's post sounded to me like he was channeling Riggs, with just a
hint of piddy....r

fortunately he was attacking women and Amerinds generally, and not Muslims,
otherwise ...

these categories can take a joke, and are very liberal conditions and
instuitutions

and so we are in the West

phil

Iskandar Baharuddin

2006-02-09 22:07:32 UTC

On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:22:26 GMT, Jim Lawton

Indefinable means I cannot define it.
Undefinable means it cannot be defined (by me or anyone else).

Rather curious, yes?

Yours makes good sense. Another notion which would be included
in your definition is gravity. We know of gravity but have yet to truly
define gravity; undefinable.

So we assume that one day it might be defined. If this were not the
case, then you are saying it would be indefinable. It's an interesting
nuance, which I shall bear in mind. Thanks.

To me it is the exact opposite. "Indefinable" means "as of now";
"undefinable" means "never".

But, of course, we should never say never.

Peter Moylan

2006-02-11 14:18:19 UTC

Post by Purl Gurl
Rather humorous dictionaries define "undefinable" using the
term "indefinable" which is rather circular logic.

Perhaps not. They might be saying that they have been unable
to find a definition for "undefinable".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists.
My e-mail addresses at newcastle.edu.au will probably remain "live"
for a while, but then they will disappear without warning.
The optusnet address still has about 5 months of life left.

Iskandar Baharuddin

2006-02-09 22:05:31 UTC

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

Steve Hayes

2006-02-10 00:49:18 UTC

Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
"Undefined" is unambiguous; "indefined" brings up 520 hits, most of
which appear to be in English written by NNESsies. So scratch it.
But to me "undefinable" and "indefinable" are not absolute synonyms.
"She is a most attractive woman. There is a certain indefinable charm
in her..."
"Undefinable" would not work.
For what little it is worth, to me "indefinable" means that I, or
someone else cannot define it.
"Undefinable" means that no one can define it; it is incapable of
being defined.

I'm glad that someone agrees with me.

Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
A bit like the difference between a whore and a slut.

I wouldn't know about that.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Iskandar Baharuddin

2006-02-10 11:09:59 UTC

On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 02:49:18 +0200, Steve Hayes

I'm glad that someone agrees with me.

Post by Iskandar Baharuddin
A bit like the difference between a whore and a slut.

I wouldn't know about that.

Good.

J. J. Lodder

2006-02-09 22:33:16 UTC

Post by Purl Gurl
"Through the centuries humans have attempted to identify those rules --- t

Post by Purl Gurl
define something which at its very core may be essentially indefinable."
Ok, which is your choice for his last word, indefinable or undefinable?
Please explain why you prefer your personal choice.

Indefinable means I cannot define it.
Undefinable means it cannot be defined (by me or anyone else).

Rather curious, yes?
To me, "indefinable" means a thing cannot be defined.
To me, "undefinable" suggests a definition has been removed.
This is for the first case, we cannot define a thing. For the
second case, we _did_ define but that definition is now gone.
We know we cannot define "this," but we thought we could
define "that" only to discover our "that" definition is incorrect.
My spell checker does not recognize "undefinable."

Mathematically speaking I would say
that for instance division by zero is undefined,
and also undefinable,

Jan

--
WHAT LOVE IS LIKE

Love is like
a pineapple,
sweet and
undefinable.
(Piet Hein)

Purl Gurl

2006-02-10 00:09:50 UTC

(snipped)

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Purl Gurl
Ok, which is your choice for his last word, indefinable or undefinable?

Mathematically speaking I would say
that for instance division by zero is undefined,
and also undefinable,

Ah, division by zero is defined by atypical thinkers.

Division by zero yields the infinite number set.

Infinity is defined as well; where parallel lines meet.

Purl Gurl

CDB

2006-02-09 19:44:34 UTC