The mystery of Stephanie, Heiress of Nablus

[wjhonson]

Stephanie was presumably of Naples as her brother (uncle to her children) was from Naples.

She married variously Baudoin Lord of Rama who is recorded as having died between Feb and Dec 1138

She also married Guy de Milly who is recorded as dying 1126

She had three known children: Helvis was Barisan Ibelin by 1133 at least; Phillip de Milly Lord of Nablus married Isabella of Oultrejordain; Henry "Le Buffle" de Milly Lord of Petra married Agnes Garnier of Sidon

No matter how I try to rearrange the known dates and events I can't figure out which husband Stephanie married first

[Peter Stewart]

Post by wjhonson
Stephanie was presumably of Naples as her brother (uncle to her children) was from Naples.

Why do you think she was called 'Stephania the Fleming' if she came from
Naples?

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

Post by wjhonson
Stephanie was presumably of Naples as her brother (uncle to her children) was from Naples.
She married variously Baudoin Lord of Rama who is recorded as having died between Feb and Dec 1138
She also married Guy de Milly who is recorded as dying 1126
She had three known children: Helvis was Barisan Ibelin by 1133 at least; Phillip de Milly Lord of Nablus married Isabella of Oultrejordain; Henry "Le Buffle" de Milly Lord of Petra married Agnes Garnier of Sidon
No matter how I try to rearrange the known dates and events I can't figure out which husband Stephanie married first

I think I can answer my own question from earlier today - you are
mistaking Naples for Naplouse, both of which were called Neapolis in
Latin documents. In the kingdom of Jerusalem, this meant Nablus.

In *Lignages d'Outremer* it says that Stephania was Flemish, married to
Guy the Frenchman with whom she had three sons whose uncle Paien was
butler and seigneur of Naplouse, and that after Guy's death she married
Bauduin of Ramla with whom she had a daughter named Helvis ("Madame
Estefenie esteit flamengue, et son baron aveit nom Gui le Franceis. Si
orrent .III.fiz ... Sire Paien, leur oncle, estoit boutillier et seignor
de Naples ... Apres la mort de mesire Gui, madame Estefenie si espousa
mesire Baudoyn, qui estoit seignor de Rames, et ot de lui une fille qui
ot nom Helvoys").

As for the order of Stephania's marriages, apart from the Lignages
statement, conjecture is all we have to go by. Her children by both
husbands appear to have been born while both were living.

Hans Eberhard Mayer tried to sort this out by placing the birth of her
sons by Guy before his arrival in Palestine in 1108, then making
Stephania around 43 years old when Guy died in 1126 and then she
remarried to have two more children with Bauduin who lived until 1138.

However, the evidence for such an early birth of the sons by Guy is just
that the probably youngest of them, also Guy, was known as "Francigena",
French-born. This interpretation is questionable - he could have been
described in this way as son of "Gui le Franceis", or perhaps Stephania
had gone back to Europe temporarily, giving birth in Picardy (or
Normandy) where the father Guy is thought to have originated.

In any case her daughter Helvis by Bauduin of Ramla must have been born
before 1126 unless Mayer was right and the Ibelin chronology from other
historians doesn't stand up - I haven't looked into this.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

Post by Peter Stewart
As for the order of Stephania's marriages, apart from the Lignages
statement, conjecture is all we have to go by. Her children by both
husbands appear to have been born while both were living.
Hans Eberhard Mayer tried to sort this out by placing the birth of her
sons by Guy before his arrival in Palestine in 1108, then making
Stephania around 43 years old when Guy died in 1126 and then she
remarried to have two more children with Bauduin who lived until 1138.
However, the evidence for such an early birth of the sons by Guy is just
that the probably youngest of them, also Guy, was known as "Francigena",
French-born. This interpretation is questionable - he could have been
described in this way as son of "Gui le Franceis", or perhaps Stephania
had gone back to Europe temporarily, giving birth in Picardy (or
Normandy) where the father Guy is thought to have originated.
In any case her daughter Helvis by Bauduin of Ramla must have been born
before 1126 unless Mayer was right and the Ibelin chronology from other
historians doesn't stand up - I haven't looked into this.

Weyprecht Rüdt von Collenberg made a fairly tight case for Bauduin as
the first of Stephania's husbands on pp 453-454 here:

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k58314362/f82.image

If correct, presumably she divorced him and then married Guy de Milly.
This seems more plausible to me than Mayer's reverse scheme.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

Post by Peter Stewart

Post by Peter Stewart
As for the order of Stephania's marriages, apart from the Lignages
statement, conjecture is all we have to go by. Her children by both
husbands appear to have been born while both were living.
Hans Eberhard Mayer tried to sort this out by placing the birth of her
sons by Guy before his arrival in Palestine in 1108, then making
Stephania around 43 years old when Guy died in 1126 and then she
remarried to have two more children with Bauduin who lived until 1138.
However, the evidence for such an early birth of the sons by Guy is
just that the probably youngest of them, also Guy, was known as
"Francigena", French-born. This interpretation is questionable - he
could have been described in this way as son of "Gui le Franceis", or
perhaps Stephania had gone back to Europe temporarily, giving birth in
Picardy (or Normandy) where the father Guy is thought to have originated.
In any case her daughter Helvis by Bauduin of Ramla must have been
born before 1126 unless Mayer was right and the Ibelin chronology from
other historians doesn't stand up - I haven't looked into this.

Weyprecht Rüdt von Collenberg made a fairly tight case for Bauduin as
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k58314362/f82.image
If correct, presumably she divorced him and then married Guy de Milly.
This seems more plausible to me than Mayer's reverse scheme.

Hans Eberhard Mayer discussed the scheme of Rüdt von Collenberg at
length, maintaining "But the real trouble comes with the two children
she [Stephania] had from Baldwin of Ramla, Renier and Helvis. Renier was
at least 8 years old when he witnessed a charter in 1141 ... He was,
therefore, not born later than 1133, when his mother was ca. 44. This is
also still possible".

However, it is scarcely if at all possible that Renier's sister Helvis
could have been born after 1126, since her son Hugo was making requests
to his king and count by 14 January in 1156 when her daughter Ermengard
occurs with him and their brother Balduin under her marital title as
lady of Tiberias, along with their maternal half-uncles Philip of
Nablus, Guy Francigena and Henri Bubalus, see pp 76- nos. 299 and 300 here:

https://archive.org/details/registaregnihier00rhuoft/page/n83/mode/2up

and pp 117-118 (= no. 300 above) here:

https://archive.org/details/cartulairedelgl00jergoog/page/n127/mode/2up.

Peter Stewart