[OT] #MeToo About to Send America into a New Dark Age

[Quadibloc]

That might perhaps be a bit overblown, but it was with great regret that I read

https://etcanada.com/news/392335/neil-degrasse-tyson-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-3-women-cosmos-networks-and-producers-promise-to-investigate/

as one of the few voices for Science in America appears about to be silenced.

John Savard

[m***@sky.com]

Post by Quadibloc
That might perhaps be a bit overblown, but it was with great regret that I read
https://etcanada.com/news/392335/neil-degrasse-tyson-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-3-women-cosmos-networks-and-producers-promise-to-investigate/
as one of the few voices for Science in America appears about to be silenced.
John Savard

[m***@sky.com]

Post by Quadibloc
That might perhaps be a bit overblown, but it was with great regret that I read
https://etcanada.com/news/392335/neil-degrasse-tyson-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-3-women-cosmos-networks-and-producers-promise-to-investigate/
as one of the few voices for Science in America appears about to be silenced.
John Savard

I don't think the end of the career of a single populariser will send America into a new Dark Age.I can see the Pence rule gaining adherents, and perhaps even turning up, explicitly or implicitly, in corporate staff handbooks.

On another note, it's interesting to see how often alcohol is present in these situations. I've just been listening to a podcast on government and academic attempts to reduce obesity. My conclusion is that these people haven't got enough of an idea of what they need to do or of what the consequences are that I want to let them anywhere near having power over the nation's food supply, but as a first effort an attempt to reduce the national consumption of alcohol might be a better starting point. I think there's less doubt about in what ways people should change, and less risk of unintended consequences.

[J. Clarke]

Post by m***@sky.com

Post by Quadibloc
That might perhaps be a bit overblown, but it was with great regret that I read
https://etcanada.com/news/392335/neil-degrasse-tyson-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-3-women-cosmos-networks-and-producers-promise-to-investigate/
as one of the few voices for Science in America appears about to be silenced.
John Savard

I don't think the end of the career of a single populariser will send America into a new Dark Age.I can see the Pence rule gaining adherents,
and perhaps even turning up, explicitly or implicitly, in corporate staff handbooks.

That would be difficult where I work. One of the standing policies is
that you have a regularly scheduled one-on-one with your boss, and a
less frequently scheduled one-on-one with the next level up. The only
man in my chain of command is the CEO.

Post by m***@sky.com
On another note, it's interesting to see how often alcohol is present in these situations.

"Candy's dandy but liquor's quicker."

Post by m***@sky.com
I've just been listening to a podcast on government and academic attempts to reduce obesity.

FWIW, my employer offers cash incentives for maintaining a healthy
weight, blood pressure, and cholesterol level and for getting
exercise. There are relatively few takers.

Post by m***@sky.com
My conclusion is that these people haven't got enough of an idea of what they need to do or of what the consequences are that I want to let them anywhere near having power over the nation's food supply, but as a first effort an attempt to reduce the national consumption of alcohol might be a better starting point. I think there's less doubt about in what ways people should change, and less risk of unintended consequences.

[Ninapenda Jibini]

Post by J. Clarke

On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 1:17:32 PM UTC, Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc
That might perhaps be a bit overblown, but it was with great
regret that I read
https://etcanada.com/news/392335/neil-degrasse-tyson-accused-of
-sexual-misconduct-by-3-women-cosmos-networks-and-producers-pro
mise-to-investigate/
as one of the few voices for Science in America appears about to be silenced.
John Savard

I don't think the end of the career of a single populariser will
send America into a new Dark Age.I can see the Pence rule
gaining adherents, and perhaps even turning up, explicitly or
implicitly, in corporate staff handbooks.

That would be difficult where I work. One of the standing
policies is that you have a regularly scheduled one-on-one with
your boss, and a less frequently scheduled one-on-one with the
next level up. The only man in my chain of command is the CEO.

A lot of companies have always had HR reps present for such things,
for that and other reasons. It's only difficult if the powers that
be don't want witnesses.

[Jack Bohn]

On another note, it's interesting to see how often alcohol is present in these >situations. I've just been listening to a podcast on government and academic attempts >to reduce obesity. My conclusion is that these people haven't got enough of an idea >of what they need to do or of what the consequences are that I want to let them >anywhere near having power over the nation's food supply, but as a first effort an >attempt to reduce the national consumption of alcohol might be a better starting >point. I think there's less doubt about in what ways people should change, and less >risk of unintended consequences.

Yeah, what unintended consequences could there be in having the government try to limit national consumption of alcohol?

[Quadibloc]

Post by Jack Bohn
Yeah, what unintended consequences could there be in having the government try
to limit national consumption of alcohol?

A government propaganda campaign is unlikely to have the level of consequences
that Prohibition did.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

Post by m***@sky.com
I don't think the end of the career of a single populariser will send America
into a new Dark Age.

Without prejudice to the allegations, I found it concerning that in a time when
various anti-scientific movements are gaining traction in the United States, the
*only* really popular and well-known popularizer of science was apparently on
his way out. (That there _is_ only one is itself a matter of concern.)

The first allegation may not be of something too serious, and I suppose one
could entertain some hope that the third, very serious, one might be a case of
mistaken identity. But the second allegation is also serious.

John Savard

[danny burstein]

Post by Quadibloc
various anti-scientific movements are gaining traction in the United States, the
*only* really popular and well-known popularizer of science was apparently on
his way out. (That there _is_ only one is itself a matter of concern.)

There's this guy, too. Yeah, he's Canadian, but that's close enough.
(Think Alex Trebek).

He's been slowing down (he's 82) and some of his causes and
promotions are a bit, to put it mildly, controversial and
questionable, but aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Suzuki

[Quadibloc]

Post by danny burstein

Post by Quadibloc
various anti-scientific movements are gaining traction in the United States, the
*only* really popular and well-known popularizer of science was apparently on
his way out. (That there _is_ only one is itself a matter of concern.)

There's this guy, too. Yeah, he's Canadian, but that's close enough.
(Think Alex Trebek).
He's been slowing down (he's 82) and some of his causes and
promotions are a bit, to put it mildly, controversial and
questionable, but aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Suzuki

He is popular and well known... in Canada. However, he has devoted himself
exclusively to environmental causes, and is no longer popularizing science in
general, and has not been doing so for decades.

Also, I wasn't including Bill Nye, the Science Guy, as well-known.

John Savard

[Greg Goss]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by danny burstein
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Suzuki

He is popular and well known... in Canada. However, he has devoted himself
exclusively to environmental causes, and is no longer popularizing science in
general, and has not been doing so for decades.

The show he founded is still going strong. Jay Ingraham (?) followed
by Bob McDonald. I don't listen as often as I should -- It looks like
Bob has been succeeded by a female host.

(I liked it in a show on SF's contribution to actual science, in an
interview between Bob McDonald and someone, the interviewee used the
phrase "As you know, Bob" about four times -- obviously deliberately
to anyone familiar with SF discussions.)

[J. Clarke]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by m***@sky.com
I don't think the end of the career of a single populariser will send America
into a new Dark Age.

Without prejudice to the allegations, I found it concerning that in a time when
various anti-scientific movements are gaining traction in the United States, the
*only* really popular and well-known popularizer of science was apparently on
his way out. (That there _is_ only one is itself a matter of concern.)
The first allegation may not be of something too serious, and I suppose one
could entertain some hope that the third, very serious, one might be a case of
mistaken identity. But the second allegation is also serious.

When talking to someone is "serious" in this context, we have sunk
pretty far.

[Quadibloc]

Post by m***@sky.com
I can see the Pence rule gaining adherents, and perhaps even turning up,
explicitly or implicitly, in corporate staff handbooks.

I had to look up what the "Pence rule" was. And that led me to this item:

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/2018/08/09/mike-pence-rule-reverse/868387002/

John Savard

[m***@sky.com]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by m***@sky.com
I can see the Pence rule gaining adherents, and perhaps even turning up,
explicitly or implicitly, in corporate staff handbooks.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/2018/08/09/mike-pence-rule-reverse/868387002/
John Savard

I hadn't seen the second rule, involving functions where alcohol is served. I think "this is totally impractical" and "this has severe disadvantages" generally comes second to "the company's lawyers think this is prudent."

As regards Prohibition, yes even governments have noticed the problems with that. Current recent alcohol measures here have included a government mandated minimum price per unit, and campaigns suggesting that people cut down generally and have at least some alcohol-free days.

[Juho Julkunen]

Post by Quadibloc
That might perhaps be a bit overblown, but it was with great regret that I read
https://etcanada.com/news/392335/neil-degrasse-tyson-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-3-women-cosmos-networks-and-producers-promise-to-investigate/
as one of the few voices for Science in America appears about to be silenced.

It is with great regret that I learn a windbag might also be a scumbag.

[Ninapenda Jibini]

In article

Post by Quadibloc
That might perhaps be a bit overblown, but it was with great
regret that I read
https://etcanada.com/news/392335/neil-degrasse-tyson-accused-of-
sexual-misconduct-by-3-women-cosmos-networks-and-producers-promi
se-to-investigate/
as one of the few voices for Science in America appears about
to be silenced.

It is with great regret that I learn a windbag might also be a
scumbag.

He's been a scumbag in different ways for a long time.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Quadibloc
That might perhaps be a bit overblown, but it was with great regret that I read
https://etcanada.com/news/392335/neil-degrasse-tyson-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-3-women-cosmos-networks-and-producers-promise-to-investigate/
as one of the few voices for Science in America appears about to be silenced.

He has replied, here is coverage of that:

https://etcanada.com/news/392335/neil-degrasse-tyson-responds-to-sexual-misconduct-allegations-why-believe-anything-i-say/

John Savard

[Robert Carnegie]

I hesitantly propose that treating people respectfully
and having a well-informed rational citizenry isn't an
"either-or" question.

It's just that each goal on its own may require an army
of rational judiciary androids with electric death grip
yo enforce it.

However, it doesn't seem much more difficult to enforce
both goals with the same androids, concurrently. It only
would be tricky to make sure that sincere free thought and
inquiry into what our real sexual differences are doesn't
activate the electric death grip. Maybe... build in a random
variation, so that controversial thinking /may/ set off the
death grip but doesn't always. Then, dangerous ideas have
a chance to be expressed. Just maybe not push it more than
once.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Robert Carnegie
I hesitantly propose that treating people respectfully
and having a well-informed rational citizenry isn't an
"either-or" question.

I certainly did not mean to suggest that we should ignore bad treatment of women
simply because it comes from people who are... useful.

No, the problem is _not_ the #MeToo movement. Instead, the problem is that the
public profile of science is dangerously low, with only one extant popularizer
of quality... I don't count Michio Kaku... so, as we now see, the continued
visibility of science is _hanging by a thread_.

Other intellectual pursuits are also retreating into obscurity.

Did you know that in just the last couple of weeks, there was a World Chess
Championship held in London, with the existing champion, Magnus Carlsen, facing
a challenger _from the United States_, Fabiano Caruana?

John Savard

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Robert Carnegie
I hesitantly propose that treating people respectfully
and having a well-informed rational citizenry isn't an
"either-or" question.

I certainly did not mean to suggest that we should ignore bad treatment of women
simply because it comes from people who are... useful.
No, the problem is _not_ the #MeToo movement. Instead, the problem is that the
public profile of science is dangerously low, with only one extant popularizer
of quality... I don't count Michio Kaku... so, as we now see, the continued
visibility of science is _hanging by a thread_.
Other intellectual pursuits are also retreating into obscurity.
Did you know that in just the last couple of weeks, there was a World Chess
Championship held in London, with the existing champion, Magnus Carlsen, facing
a challenger _from the United States_, Fabiano Caruana?
John Savard

I did. But I don't like chess. Does anyone, really?
Or do you just play it against people you don't like,
as a way to make them not have a good time?

There are women science communicators and that should
address the Feynman Factor. If I mention chimpanzees,
lions, pulsars, and polonium, I expect you can name
people in the field that I have in mind - though I
suppose it would be even better to have others.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Robert Carnegie
There are women science communicators

Oh, indeed.

When Neil deGrasse Tyson first came to prominence, I'm sure many people silently
wondered in the backs of their minds if he was chosen partly because he would
better reach out to an underserviced group... such doubts will be present, too,
when the face of science becomes a woman, particularly if it happens immediately
in the present context, but science should have _many_ faces...

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Robert Carnegie
There are women science communicators

Oh, indeed.
When Neil deGrasse Tyson first came to prominence, I'm sure many people silently
wondered in the backs of their minds if he was chosen partly because he would
better reach out to an underserviced group... such doubts will be present, too,
when the face of science becomes a woman, particularly if it happens immediately
in the present context, but science should have _many_ faces...

What is needed is someone personable, available, and not so smart that
they talk over the viewers' heads. The personable is not all that
easy to find--the kind of people who go into the sciences tend not to
be "people-oriented". The available as well--New York City is not a
hotbed of scientific research, most experts have to be flown in, you
can't have them drop over on short notice. And when they do, well,
anybody who has taught "physics for dummies" knows how hard it is to
break things down to that level.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Robert Carnegie
There are women science communicators

Oh, indeed.
When Neil deGrasse Tyson first came to prominence, I'm sure many people silently
wondered in the backs of their minds if he was chosen partly because he would
better reach out to an underserviced group... such doubts will be present, too,
when the face of science becomes a woman, particularly if it happens immediately
in the present context, but science should have _many_ faces...

And apparently it's not just Republicans that are anti-science:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/12/will-the-europa-missions-be-iced-after-congressmans-defeat-not-right-now/

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

Post by Robert Carnegie
I did. But I don't like chess. Does anyone, really?
Or do you just play it against people you don't like,
as a way to make them not have a good time?

Chess, like love, like music, has the power to make men happy.
- Siegbert Tarrasch

I like the moment I break a man's ego.
- Robert J. Fischer

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Robert Carnegie
I did. But I don't like chess. Does anyone, really?
Or do you just play it against people you don't like,
as a way to make them not have a good time?

Chess, like love, like music, has the power to make men happy.
- Siegbert Tarrasch
I like the moment I break a man's ego.
- Robert J. Fischer

Pity he never got the chance to be humiliated by a cell phone.

[Quadibloc]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Quadibloc
I like the moment I break a man's ego.
- Robert J. Fischer

Pity he never got the chance to be humiliated by a cell phone.

He died early in 2008.

As far back as 1971, he was quoted as saying "I think Botvinnik is right. Chess
playing machines are going to be so strong that they would at least draw with
grandmasters."

The SSDF rating list for 2007 showed chess programs running on desktop computers
to have ratings of above 2900.

Ah, yes, just a bit too early for a cell phone to do the job.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

Post by Robert Carnegie
I hesitantly propose that treating people respectfully
and having a well-informed rational citizenry isn't an
"either-or" question.
It's just that each goal on its own may require an army
of rational judiciary androids with electric death grip
yo enforce it.
However, it doesn't seem much more difficult to enforce
both goals with the same androids, concurrently. It only
would be tricky to make sure that sincere free thought and
inquiry into what our real sexual differences are doesn't
activate the electric death grip. Maybe... build in a random
variation, so that controversial thinking /may/ set off the
death grip but doesn't always. Then, dangerous ideas have
a chance to be expressed. Just maybe not push it more than
once.

Judge Dredd robocops would not be compatible with the First Amendment, and hence
they wouldn't be compatible with a well-informed rational citizenry.

Canada has hate literature laws, and the United States has the First Amendment.

Personally, I think both approaches are flawed, and each country could learn
from the other.

Stirring up racial hatred is something that is legitimate for the government to
prohibit, just like advocating violence, or sedition, and so on. But what does
need to be protected absolutely is calm, rational discussion of political
issues, whatever the issue, and however outrageous the point of view presented
might be. (Canada's hate literature laws, as they stand, fail this standard.)

Free speech is protected so the citizenry may think for themselves when voting, not so they can be whipped up into a violent mob.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

In more news:

The isolated act of one American radio station, which should not really be taken
as reflective of the aims of the #MeToo movement, has now been taken up by large
segments of the Canadian airwaves.

An article which takes a deeper look at the issus with the song in question is
here:

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

(It makes a mistake, though: it refers to a song "Smoke! Smoke! Smoke!" as
encouraging smoking, when in fact that song warns of the addictive nature of the
habit.)

However, a French sports reporter has helpfully shown us that instead of
focusing on occasional incidents where feminism seems to have "gone too far",
there is still much need to work on achieving its goal of equality for women:

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/ada-hegerberg-twerking-sexism-1.4932139

John Savard

[Kevrob]

Post by Quadibloc
The isolated act of one American radio station, which should not really be taken
as reflective of the aims of the #MeToo movement, has now been taken up by large
segments of the Canadian airwaves.
An article which takes a deeper look at the issus with the song in question is
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.

It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

Post by Quadibloc
(It makes a mistake, though: it refers to a song "Smoke! Smoke! Smoke!" as
encouraging smoking, when in fact that song warns of the addictive nature of the habit.)

That song has also been frequently covered, and some of the covers
charted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke!_Smoke!_Smoke!_(That_Cigarette)#Cover_versions


ObSFFilm reference: the version by Commander Cody
and His Lost Planet Airmen.

Kevin R

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
The isolated act of one American radio station, which should not really be taken
as reflective of the aims of the #MeToo movement, has now been taken up by large
segments of the Canadian airwaves.
An article which takes a deeper look at the issus with the song in question is
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

Yes.

[Alan Baker]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
The isolated act of one American radio station, which should not really be taken
as reflective of the aims of the #MeToo movement, has now been taken up by large
segments of the Canadian airwaves.
An article which takes a deeper look at the issus with the song in question is
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

Yes.

Sorry, but that's bullshit on its face.

Women seduce men. Is that rape?

[Peter Trei]

Post by Alan Baker

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
The isolated act of one American radio station, which should not really be taken
as reflective of the aims of the #MeToo movement, has now been taken up by large
segments of the Canadian airwaves.
An article which takes a deeper look at the issus with the song in question is
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

Yes.

Sorry, but that's bullshit on its face.
Women seduce men. Is that rape?

Out of curiosity, I looked up the lyrics, and the history of the song.
Here's a interesting feminist analysis, by someone who understands the
historical context.

http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/

TL:DNR it was woman-empowering at the time.


pt

[Quadibloc]

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Quadibloc
An article which takes a deeper look at the issus with the song in question is
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Out of curiosity, I looked up the lyrics, and the history of the song.
Here's a interesting feminist analysis, by someone who understands the
historical context.
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
TL:DNR it was woman-empowering at the time.

The National Post article to which I linked covered much of the same ground, but
the National Post is a conservative business-oriented newspaper, so it's good to
have confirmation from an authentically feminist source.

John Savard

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 12:17:29 PM UTC-5, Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc
The isolated act of one American radio station, which should
not really be taken as reflective of the aims of the #MeToo
movement, has now been taken up by large segments of the
Canadian airwaves.
An article which takes a deeper look at the issus with the song
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an
-ode-to-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-r
adio

It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

In some opinions, yes. Any sex that the womand regrets afterwards,
even if she initiated it, is rape.

The word has no meaning whatsoever any more. And that's the real
crime, causing people to ignore the real thing.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Titus G]

Post by Quadibloc
The isolated act of one American radio station, which should
not really be taken as reflective of the aims of the #MeToo
movement, has now been taken up by large segments of the
Canadian airwaves.
An article which takes a deeper look at the issus with the song
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an
-ode-to-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-r
adio

I prefer the British version from the 60's.

[l***@yahoo.com]

Post by Kevrob
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

No, and even those famous half-dozen(?) people who have been accused of saying/believing that have never been found guilty, to my knowledge. (I can think of ONE name, but not the other few - and again, she was not found guilty.)

But, while there are those who say that the line "what's in this drink" is actually an old joke meaning "why do I feel like this" even when the person is drinking something mixed BY the person, one can't expect young people to know that when they hear the song, after hearing all about Bill Cosby et al. So I don't blame anyone who doesn't like the song and doesn't want it played in front of young people. That line just doesn't sound like "seduction" anymore.

And Jibini - WHO says "regret equals rape"? Certainly not Dan Savage - he's spoken against that attitude, many times.

From 2017:

"What kind of person makes false rape accusations?"

https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations/

And:

https://www.elle.com/culture/career-politics/a13977980/me-too-movement-false-accusations-believe-women/



Lenona.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 2:15:46 PM UTC-5, Kevrob

Post by Kevrob
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

No, and even those famous half-dozen(?) people who have been
accused of saying/believing that have never been found guilty,
to my knowledge. (I can think of ONE name, but not the other few
- and again, she was not found guilty.)
But, while there are those who say that the line "what's in this
drink" is actually an old joke meaning "why do I feel like this"
even when the person is drinking something mixed BY the person,
one can't expect young people to know that when they hear the
song, after hearing all about Bill Cosby et al. So I don't blame
anyone who doesn't like the song and doesn't want it played in
front of young people. That line just doesn't sound like
"seduction" anymore.
And Jibini - WHO says "regret equals rape"? Certainly not Dan
Savage - he's spoken against that attitude, many times.

That some (or even many, or even most) people find such a position
stupid and offensive does not mean that there is no one who believes
it.

But you know that.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[l***@yahoo.com]

On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 7:11:48 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula Tumbili

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by l***@yahoo.com
And Jibini - WHO says "regret equals rape"? Certainly not Dan
Savage - he's spoken against that attitude, many times.

That some (or even many, or even most) people find such a position
stupid and offensive does not mean that there is no one who believes
it.

There's a big difference between believing it and saying it out loud. Also, if there are so many people who believe it, someone will eventually have to SAY that - in court. And get laughed down.

In the meantime, while being verbally pushy doesn't count as rape, it's still not at all romantic to ignore anyone's (male or female) expressed reluctance to have sex, over and over. It's just creepy. Seduction, yes, but still creepy.

(Btw, sexual "seduction" doesn't always mean something that ends in intercourse - it can also just mean "sexual temptation.")

And speaking of ignoring the other person's reluctance - for those who have seen the movie "Gone with the Wind" but not read the book (no, I'm not talking about THAT scene), they don't know that Scarlett had three big fat reasons not to be romantically attracted to Rhett, even if Ashley had never existed! Namely:

1. He's 17(!) years older. Practically old enough to be her father. Maybe that wasn't so unusual in the 1860s, but in 1930 - soon before the book was published - the average age difference at marriage was 3 years - and the median age for a man getting married for the first time was 24. (I also know for a fact that when Laura Ingalls Wilder wrote "The Long Winter" in 1940, she tried to make it look as though she and Almanzo were only about 5 years apart; they were 10 years apart. Telling the truth at that time would have creeped out her child readers.)

2. Rhett completely ignores what Scarlett has let him know multiple times - she doesn't like babies or motherhood or having a waist that's even 20 inches(!), so why would she want to marry again? (Her first two children aren't in the movie.) He even has the gall to imply, in his marriage proposal, that the glories of sex with HIM will make up for any unwanted children they will have. Gag. Granted, she - somewhat unrealistically - doesn't try to contradict this. (Otherwise, there would be no story!)

3. Rhett is always making fun of her lack of education, even BEFORE they marry. Who wouldn't get angry about that, eventually? While it's natural for people to want to AVOID drop-outs with a contempt for education, like Scarlett, if you don't, common courtesy demands that you not put them down, at the least.


Lenona.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
That some (or even many, or even most) people find such a position
stupid and offensive does not mean that there is no one who believes
it.

That in *itself*, though, is not particularly relevant. So what if a very few
wild-eyed radical feminists believe something that hardly anyone else takes
seriously?

Instead, though, there _is_ a real question here.

Yes, the notion that regret equals rape is preposterous on its face.

However, sometimes one gets the impression that a significant segment of the
feminist movement believes this outrageous thing. That could mean a number of
things.

Some of the possibilities, of course, reflect badly on the feminist movement.
But perhaps there are other possibilities we should also take a look at.

Men, from their experience of dealing with other men *as equals*, naturally tend
to see consent as a black-and-white thing. On the one hand, there's normal free-
market fair dealings, and on the other hand there's a robbery where someone
pulls out a gun.

But men are... *bigger* than women.

So where men see a black-and-white cut-and-dried dichotomy, women might see a
huge murky grey area.

A woman goes out on a date - if she doesn't do that, she'll never find a husband - she's in this guy's car, and...

it seems to her that it would be less unpleasant to give in to his desires,
although that wasn't what she wanted to do just yet, then have the situation
escalate to a violent rape.

She felt herself to be under duress, but he can claim she never let him know it
wasn't what she wanted.

This is not some bizarrely rare situation - rather, it is distressingly *all too
common*, although to safeguard their reputations, women only recently have begun
to speak of it except in private among other women they can trust.

John Savard

[David DeLaney]

Post by Quadibloc
But men are... *bigger* than women.

NOT TOUCHING THIS ONE

Dave, I'll just leave it here. On display. Yeah.

[David DeLaney]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Post by Kevrob
It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say, what's in this
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate connotations; then, those might
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's
likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.

(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men" was a Maxim for
ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take candy from strangers" was
for children...)

Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?

ps: expecting followup from Dorothy in three... two ... one .. .. ..

[Peter Trei]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Post by Kevrob
It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say, what's in this
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate connotations; then, those might
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's
likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men" was a Maxim for
ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take candy from strangers" was
for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?

The line "Say, what's in this drink?" was a period idiom. It meant effectively, “I intend to do something socially frowned upon (such as spend the night with my boyfriend), and I’m generating plausible deniability of responsibility by saying I’m drunk.”

Check this:
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/

It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender to the ignorant.

Pt

Pt

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Post by Kevrob
It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say, what's in this
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate connotations; then, those might
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's
likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men" was a Maxim for
ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take candy from strangers" was
for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?

The line "Say, what's in this drink?" was a period idiom. It meant effectively, “I intend to do something socially frowned upon (such as spend the night with my boyfriend), and I’m generating plausible deniability of responsibility by saying I’m drunk.”
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender to the ignorant.

I don't buy this interpretation. If she intended to sleep
with him tonight all along, then why is she complaining
/to him/ about the situation? They're clearly in private,
she doesn't need to make excuses or to continue to resist,
which she does. Of course then the song would be a lot
shorter. "Oh, the hell with it. Come and get it,
big boy."

I suppose she might not have the vocabulary or the courage
(and the stupidity) for that. But a song is expressive
by nature, and I don't think this piece is subtle enough to
cast her as well as him as unreliable narrator.

And if that is what it means, then I'm not sure that should
be on radio, either.

Having said all that, someone did a version with roles
reversed, who was that - predatory female and reserved
British male victim.

But why is it not just "a hilarious song about date rape" like all the others (not all of whose victims survive)?

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Have_Some_Madeira_M%27Dear>

Or from "Bored of the Rings":
<http://www.kulichki.com/tolkien/cabinet/svod/nimrodel/texts/bored.html>
Obviously should be "An elven-maid there was of old".

The song everyone knew of the late Victoria Wood is
"Let's Do It" - not Cole Porter's - in which a British
housewife feels sexy and her husband doesn't.
Most of the comedy is in her sophisticated sexual
fantasies using their domestic environment, and what
he'd rather do instead.

If the husband's libido is on and the wife's isn't, it's quite difficult for the piece not to be grim.

[Titus G]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Post by Kevrob
It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say, what's in this
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate connotations; then, those might
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's
likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men" was a Maxim for
ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take candy from strangers" was
for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?

The line "Say, what's in this drink?" was a period idiom. It meant effectively, “I intend to do something socially frowned upon (such as spend the night with my boyfriend), and I’m generating plausible deniability of responsibility by saying I’m drunk.”
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender to the ignorant.

I don't buy this interpretation. If she intended to sleep
with him tonight all along, then why is she complaining
/to him/ about the situation? They're clearly in private,
she doesn't need to make excuses or to continue to resist,
which she does. Of course then the song would be a lot
shorter. "Oh, the hell with it. Come and get it,
big boy."
I suppose

Don't. Read the article Peter Trei referenced before digging any deeper.

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Post by Kevrob
It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say, what's in this
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate connotations; then, those might
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's
likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men" was a Maxim for
ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take candy from strangers" was
for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?

The line "Say, what's in this drink?" was a period idiom. It meant effectively, “I intend to do something socially frowned upon (such as spend the night with my boyfriend), and I’m generating plausible deniability of responsibility by saying I’m drunk.”
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender to the ignorant.

I don't buy this interpretation. If she intended to sleep
with him tonight all along, then why is she complaining
/to him/ about the situation? They're clearly in private,
she doesn't need to make excuses or to continue to resist,
which she does. Of course then the song would be a lot
shorter. "Oh, the hell with it. Come and get it,
big boy."
I suppose

Don't. Read the article Peter Trei referenced before digging any deeper.

I have. I've also heard the song. She holds out quite
a long time.

It's not one line, it's all the lines.

The way I hear it, she likes the guy but she /doesn't/ want
to open her legs tonight, and that and the outcome is the
goddamned definition of date rape. Without those
circumstances, it isn't date rape, it's just ordinary
regular rape. (Though offhand I don't know which is
more common anyway.)

[Titus G]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Post by Kevrob
It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say, what's in this
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate connotations; then, those might
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's
likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men" was a Maxim for
ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take candy from strangers" was
for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?

The line "Say, what's in this drink?" was a period idiom. It meant effectively, “I intend to do something socially frowned upon (such as spend the night with my boyfriend), and I’m generating plausible deniability of responsibility by saying I’m drunk.”
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender to the ignorant..

I don't buy this interpretation. If she intended to sleep
with him tonight all along, then why is she complaining
/to him/ about the situation?

She is not complaining. She is "complaining" about what other people
will think, not what she wants. She feels guilty about her natural
feelings. He provides excuses she can perhaps make to them to assuage
her guilt.

They're clearly in private,

Only a woman of loose morals would be alone with a man.

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie
she doesn't need to make excuses or to continue to resist,
which she does. Of course then the song would be a lot
shorter. "Oh, the hell with it. Come and get it,
big boy."
I suppose

Don't. Read the article Peter Trei referenced before digging any deeper.

I have.

I apologise. But your questions above which I have briefly replied to,
have to be considered in the context of the then social mores which you
have appeared to ignore.

I've also heard the song. She holds out quite

Post by Robert Carnegie
a long time.
It's not one line, it's all the lines.
The way I hear it, she likes the guy but she /doesn't/ want
to open her legs tonight, and that and the outcome is the
goddamned definition of date rape. Without those
circumstances, it isn't date rape, it's just ordinary
regular rape. (Though offhand I don't know which is
more common anyway.)

I have the completely different opinion being in agreement with the
explanatory detail in the Peter Trei link.
"Ordinary regular rape" involves drugs or violence or the threat of
violence. The possibility of a blue nose does not constitute a threat in
this song whether it be from the cold weather outside or the steamy
climate inside.

[Ninapenda Jibini]

Post by Titus G
I apologise. But your questions above which I have briefly
replied to, have to be considered in the context of the then
social mores which you have appeared to ignore.

One cannot propagate the propaganda one's masters have instructed one
to propagate, by blinding and stupidly attacking whatever target it
is currently fashionable to hate (in this case, men) by considering
*facts*.

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Post by Kevrob
It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say, what's in this
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate connotations; then, those might
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's
likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men" was a Maxim for
ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take candy from strangers" was
for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?

The line "Say, what's in this drink?" was a period idiom. It meant effectively, “I intend to do something socially frowned upon (such as spend the night with my boyfriend), and I’m generating plausible deniability of responsibility by saying I’m drunk.”
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender to the ignorant..

I don't buy this interpretation. If she intended to sleep
with him tonight all along, then why is she complaining
/to him/ about the situation?

She is not complaining. She is "complaining" about what other people
will think, not what she wants. She feels guilty about her natural
feelings. He provides excuses she can perhaps make to them to assuage
her guilt.
They're clearly in private,
Only a woman of loose morals would be alone with a man.

So she is a whore after all. And he just likes pretending
to seduce an innocent vulnerable little girl.

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie
she doesn't need to make excuses or to continue to resist,
which she does. Of course then the song would be a lot
shorter. "Oh, the hell with it. Come and get it,
big boy."
I suppose

Don't. Read the article Peter Trei referenced before digging any deeper.

I have.

I apologise. But your questions above which I have briefly replied to,
have to be considered in the context of the then social mores which you
have appeared to ignore.
I've also heard the song. She holds out quite

Post by Robert Carnegie
a long time.
It's not one line, it's all the lines.
The way I hear it, she likes the guy but she /doesn't/ want
to open her legs tonight, and that and the outcome is the
goddamned definition of date rape. Without those
circumstances, it isn't date rape, it's just ordinary
regular rape. (Though offhand I don't know which is
more common anyway.)

I have the completely different opinion being in agreement with the
explanatory detail in the Peter Trei link.
"Ordinary regular rape" involves drugs or violence or the threat of
violence. The possibility of a blue nose does not constitute a threat in
this song whether it be from the cold weather outside or the steamy
climate inside.

What's in this drink?

[Titus G]

snip

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G
Only a woman of loose morals would be alone with a man.

So she is a whore after all.

By the standards of the 1930's, she was a woman of loose morals.

(I could go for a walk as it is summer here and there are no wolves....)

snip

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G
I have the completely different opinion being in agreement with the
explanatory detail in the Peter Trei link.
"Ordinary regular rape" involves drugs or violence or the threat of
violence. The possibility of a blue nose does not constitute a threat in
this song whether it be from the cold weather outside or the steamy
climate inside.

What's in this drink?

Answered already by a previous poster and also in:
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
which you have read and which I have said I completely agree with so we
appear to be too far apart in our views to profit from further chat on
this issue. Thank you.
(I am going for a walk as it is summer here and there are no wolves.)

[David DeLaney]

Post by Titus G
(I am going for a walk as it is summer here and there are no wolves.)

... no VISIBLE wolves.

Dave, you are Jack Douglas and I claim my five pounds

[Alan Baker]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Post by Kevrob
It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say, what's in this
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate connotations; then, those might
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's
likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men" was a Maxim for
ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take candy from strangers" was
for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?

The line "Say, what's in this drink?" was a period idiom. It meant effectively, “I intend to do something socially frowned upon (such as spend the night with my boyfriend), and I’m generating plausible deniability of responsibility by saying I’m drunk.”
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender to the ignorant.

I don't buy this interpretation. If she intended to sleep
with him tonight all along, then why is she complaining
/to him/ about the situation? They're clearly in private,
she doesn't need to make excuses or to continue to resist,
which she does. Of course then the song would be a lot
shorter. "Oh, the hell with it. Come and get it,
big boy."
I suppose

Don't. Read the article Peter Trei referenced before digging any deeper.

I have. I've also heard the song. She holds out quite
a long time.
It's not one line, it's all the lines.
The way I hear it, she likes the guy but she /doesn't/ want
to open her legs tonight, and that and the outcome is the
goddamned definition of date rape. Without those
circumstances, it isn't date rape, it's just ordinary
regular rape. (Though offhand I don't know which is
more common anyway.)

Sorry, but that just doesn't match the lyrics.

[J. Clarke]

On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 18:05:41 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Post by Kevrob
It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say, what's in this
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate connotations; then, those might
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's
likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men" was a Maxim for
ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take candy from strangers" was
for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?

The line "Say, what's in this drink?" was a period idiom. It meant effectively, “I intend to do something socially frowned upon (such as spend the night with my boyfriend), and I’m generating plausible deniability of responsibility by saying I’m drunk.”
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender to the ignorant.

I don't buy this interpretation. If she intended to sleep
with him tonight all along, then why is she complaining
/to him/ about the situation? They're clearly in private,
she doesn't need to make excuses or to continue to resist,
which she does. Of course then the song would be a lot
shorter. "Oh, the hell with it. Come and get it,
big boy."
I suppose

Don't. Read the article Peter Trei referenced before digging any deeper.

I have. I've also heard the song. She holds out quite
a long time.
It's not one line, it's all the lines.
The way I hear it, she likes the guy but she /doesn't/ want
to open her legs tonight, and that and the outcome is the
goddamned definition of date rape. Without those
circumstances, it isn't date rape, it's just ordinary
regular rape. (Though offhand I don't know which is
more common anyway.)

Persuasion is now rape? The crazy years are here.

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 18:05:41 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Peter Trei

Post by David DeLaney

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-a
n-ode-to
-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say,
what's in this drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate
connotations; then, those might have been involved of course,
but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's likely just
wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men" was
a Maxim for ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take
candy from strangers" was for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?

The line "Say, what's in this drink?" was a period idiom. It
meant effectively, “I intend to do something socially frowned
upon (such as spend the night with my boyfriend), and I’m
generating plausible deniability of responsibility by saying I’m
drunk.”
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-
defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may
misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender to
the ignorant.

I don't buy this interpretation. If she intended to sleep
with him tonight all along, then why is she complaining
/to him/ about the situation? They're clearly in private, she
doesn't need to make excuses or to continue to resist, which she
does. Of course then the song would be a lot shorter. "Oh, the
hell with it. Come and get it, big boy."
I suppose

Don't. Read the article Peter Trei referenced before digging any deeper.

I have. I've also heard the song. She holds out quite
a long time.
It's not one line, it's all the lines.
The way I hear it, she likes the guy but she /doesn't/ want
to open her legs tonight, and that and the outcome is the
goddamned definition of date rape. Without those
circumstances, it isn't date rape, it's just ordinary
regular rape. (Though offhand I don't know which is more common
anyway.)

Persuasion is now rape? The crazy years are here.

Here's the original public performance by Esther Williams and
Ricardo Montalban in 1944's 'Neptune's Daughter'. This video
includes a gender-reversed version by two actors I feel I should
know, but don't

pt

[Kevrob]

Post by J. Clarke
Persuasion is now rape? The crazy years are here.

Many people of various statist persuasions lost the
distinction between speech they don't like and physical
force, or it's threat, a long time ago.

Regarding, "what's in this drink...": while roofies and
the like weren't a thing when the song was written, there
was the "Mickey Finn," and a staple plot in pulps, especially
of the "Yellow Peril villain" type, was slipping a sedative to
Pretty, Nice Girls, who soon found themselves in the clutches
of "White Slavers."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Finn_(drugs)

Even were it ultimately consensual, sex with a lovely so
incapacitated would squick me, which I hope is a sign of
mental health.

Kevin R

[J. Clarke]

Post by Kevrob

Post by J. Clarke
Persuasion is now rape? The crazy years are here.

Many people of various statist persuasions lost the
distinction between speech they don't like and physical
force, or it's threat, a long time ago.
Regarding, "what's in this drink...": while roofies and
the like weren't a thing when the song was written, there
was the "Mickey Finn," and a staple plot in pulps, especially
of the "Yellow Peril villain" type, was slipping a sedative to
Pretty, Nice Girls, who soon found themselves in the clutches
of "White Slavers."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Finn_(drugs)
Even were it ultimately consensual, sex with a lovely so
incapacitated would squick me, which I hope is a sign of
mental health.

If it squicks you you aren't drunk enough. If you let her drink alone
you're a cad.

[Kevrob]

Post by J. Clarke
If it squicks you you aren't drunk enough.
If you let her drink alone you're a cad.

If I drink, I can't drive her home.

Maybe that's not the best way to put that. :)

Kevin R

[Magewolf]

Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 18:05:41 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Post by Kevrob
It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say, what's in this
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate connotations; then, those might
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's
likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men" was a Maxim for
ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take candy from strangers" was
for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?

The line "Say, what's in this drink?" was a period idiom. It meant effectively, “I intend to do something socially frowned upon (such as spend the night with my boyfriend), and I’m generating plausible deniability of responsibility by saying I’m drunk.”
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender to the ignorant.

I don't buy this interpretation. If she intended to sleep
with him tonight all along, then why is she complaining
/to him/ about the situation? They're clearly in private,
she doesn't need to make excuses or to continue to resist,
which she does. Of course then the song would be a lot
shorter. "Oh, the hell with it. Come and get it,
big boy."
I suppose

Don't. Read the article Peter Trei referenced before digging any deeper.

I have. I've also heard the song. She holds out quite
a long time.
It's not one line, it's all the lines.
The way I hear it, she likes the guy but she /doesn't/ want
to open her legs tonight, and that and the outcome is the
goddamned definition of date rape. Without those
circumstances, it isn't date rape, it's just ordinary
regular rape. (Though offhand I don't know which is
more common anyway.)

Persuasion is now rape? The crazy years are here.

It has been for a while. The whole decide the next day that she did not
want to have sex last night equals rape has been a thing for years. A
roommate of mine at collage was accused of rape after breaking up with
his girlfriend after they had sex one night. Luckily saner heads
prevailed and it was shutdown but in today's climate he probably would
have been hung.

[Kevrob]

Post by Magewolf

Post by J. Clarke
Persuasion is now rape? The crazy years are here.

It has been for a while. The whole decide the next day that she did not
want to have sex last night equals rape has been a thing for years. A
roommate of mine at collage was accused of rape after breaking up with
his girlfriend after they had sex one night. Luckily saner heads
prevailed and it was shutdown but in today's climate he probably would
have been hung.

Old cartoon, from Esquire, Playboy or the like.

[Bimmbo on witness stand..]

But, your honor, I didn't know it was
_rape_ until the check bounced!

........

I know, that's doubleplusungood nowadays, but BITD it
was clever and funny.

Let's not forget folks like Andrea Dworkin:
"violation is a synonym for intercourse,"
often characterized by others as
"all heterosexual sex is rape."

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercourse_(book)

..and this footnote, there:

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/109179.html

Kevin R

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 18:05:41 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Post by Kevrob
It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say, what's in this
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate connotations; then, those might
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's
likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men" was a Maxim for
ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take candy from strangers" was
for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?

The line "Say, what's in this drink?" was a period idiom. It meant effectively, “I intend to do something socially frowned upon (such as spend the night with my boyfriend), and I’m generating plausible deniability of responsibility by saying I’m drunk.”
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender to the ignorant.

I don't buy this interpretation. If she intended to sleep
with him tonight all along, then why is she complaining
/to him/ about the situation? They're clearly in private,
she doesn't need to make excuses or to continue to resist,
which she does. Of course then the song would be a lot
shorter. "Oh, the hell with it. Come and get it,
big boy."
I suppose

Don't. Read the article Peter Trei referenced before digging any deeper.

I have. I've also heard the song. She holds out quite
a long time.
It's not one line, it's all the lines.
The way I hear it, she likes the guy but she /doesn't/ want
to open her legs tonight, and that and the outcome is the
goddamned definition of date rape. Without those
circumstances, it isn't date rape, it's just ordinary
regular rape. (Though offhand I don't know which is
more common anyway.)

Persuasion is now rape? The crazy years are here.

He persuades her not to escape while there is time.
The rape presumably occurs during the instrumental break
and is not heard.

These days the adjective "coercive" seems to be in fashion.

[Alan Baker]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 18:05:41 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Post by Kevrob
It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say, what's in this
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate connotations; then, those might
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's
likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men" was a Maxim for
ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take candy from strangers" was
for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?

The line "Say, what's in this drink?" was a period idiom. It meant effectively, “I intend to do something socially frowned upon (such as spend the night with my boyfriend), and I’m generating plausible deniability of responsibility by saying I’m drunk.”
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender to the ignorant.

I don't buy this interpretation. If she intended to sleep
with him tonight all along, then why is she complaining
/to him/ about the situation? They're clearly in private,
she doesn't need to make excuses or to continue to resist,
which she does. Of course then the song would be a lot
shorter. "Oh, the hell with it. Come and get it,
big boy."
I suppose

Don't. Read the article Peter Trei referenced before digging any deeper.

I have. I've also heard the song. She holds out quite
a long time.
It's not one line, it's all the lines.
The way I hear it, she likes the guy but she /doesn't/ want
to open her legs tonight, and that and the outcome is the
goddamned definition of date rape. Without those
circumstances, it isn't date rape, it's just ordinary
regular rape. (Though offhand I don't know which is
more common anyway.)

Persuasion is now rape? The crazy years are here.

He persuades her not to escape while there is time.

No. That is complete bullshit.

Post by Robert Carnegie
The rape presumably occurs during the instrumental break
and is not heard.
These days the adjective "coercive" seems to be in fashion.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Dude, give it up. You're making Alan Baker looks like the smart
one. Game over.

Post by Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 18:05:41 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

On Friday, 7 December 2018 00:44:39 UTC, Peter Trei

On Thursday, December 6, 2018 at 7:00:42 PM UTC-5, David
DeLaney wr

Post by Quadibloc

On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 12:17:29 PM UTC-5,
Quadibloc wr

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-o
utside-an

-ode-to

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Quadibloc
-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian
-radio

It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory
rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines,
"Say, what's

in this

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Quadibloc
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate
connotations; then,

those might

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Quadibloc
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the
song unim

paired, she's

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Quadibloc
likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it
are, or sh

e hasn't

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Quadibloc
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange
men" was a

Maxim for

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Quadibloc
ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take candy
from stra

ngers" was

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Quadibloc
for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck
etchings?

The line "Say, what's in this drink?" was a period idiom.
It meant

effectively, “I intend to do something socially frowned upon
(such as spend the night with my boyfriend), and I’m
generating plausible deniability of responsibility by saying
I’m drunk.”

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-femi
nist-in-d

efense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener
may

misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender
to the ignorant.

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

I don't buy this interpretation. If she intended to sleep
with him tonight all along, then why is she complaining
/to him/ about the situation? They're clearly in private,
she doesn't need to make excuses or to continue to resist,
which she does. Of course then the song would be a lot
shorter. "Oh, the hell with it. Come and get it,
big boy."
I suppose

Don't. Read the article Peter Trei referenced before digging
any deepe

r.

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Robert Carnegie
I have. I've also heard the song. She holds out quite
a long time.
It's not one line, it's all the lines.
The way I hear it, she likes the guy but she /doesn't/ want
to open her legs tonight, and that and the outcome is the
goddamned definition of date rape. Without those
circumstances, it isn't date rape, it's just ordinary
regular rape. (Though offhand I don't know which is
more common anyway.)

Persuasion is now rape? The crazy years are here.

He persuades her not to escape while there is time.
The rape presumably occurs during the instrumental break
and is not heard.
These days the adjective "coercive" seems to be in fashion.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 18:05:41 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Post by Kevrob
It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say, what's in this
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate connotations; then, those might
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's
likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men" was a Maxim for
ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take candy from strangers" was
for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?

The line "Say, what's in this drink?" was a period idiom. It meant effectively, “I intend to do something socially frowned upon (such as spend the night with my boyfriend), and I’m generating plausible deniability of responsibility by saying I’m drunk.”
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender to the ignorant.

I don't buy this interpretation. If she intended to sleep
with him tonight all along, then why is she complaining
/to him/ about the situation? They're clearly in private,
she doesn't need to make excuses or to continue to resist,
which she does. Of course then the song would be a lot
shorter. "Oh, the hell with it. Come and get it,
big boy."
I suppose

Don't. Read the article Peter Trei referenced before digging any deeper.

I have. I've also heard the song. She holds out quite
a long time.
It's not one line, it's all the lines.
The way I hear it, she likes the guy but she /doesn't/ want
to open her legs tonight, and that and the outcome is the
goddamned definition of date rape. Without those
circumstances, it isn't date rape, it's just ordinary
regular rape. (Though offhand I don't know which is
more common anyway.)

Persuasion is now rape? The crazy years are here.

He persuades her not to escape while there is time.
The rape presumably occurs during the instrumental break
and is not heard.

And she presumably knows why he's trying to talk her into staying, so
I'm having trouble with the idea of calling it rape based on just the song.

[Kevrob]

Post by Robert Carnegie
He persuades her not to escape while there is time.
The rape presumably occurs during the instrumental break
and is not heard.
These days the adjective "coercive" seems to be in fashion.

When I hear "coercion" I think "the threat of the use of
force" or "actually using force." It gets stretched to
other unsavory things, like blackmail/extortion, when an
economic threat is used: "if you want to keep your job...."
Some people are economically secure enough to quit and work
elsewhere, but by no mean everybody. "Emotional blackmail" -
of the "if you loved me, you'd sleep with me" variety, is NOT
coercion. I'm not saying that's not manipulative behavior,
and, to use terminology not in fashion, unbecoming of a
gentleman. But calling any kind of pressure or persuasive
tactic "coercion" robs the word of its meaning.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/coercion

In Dec.2013, Saturday Night Live parodied BICO with Jimmy Fallon
and the, to my eyes, radiant Cecily Strong. NBC seems to have a
banjaxed link that plays other Christmas song parodies,.....

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/baby-its-cold-outside/n44614

but the transcript is here:

https://snltranscripts.jt.org/13/13jcold.phtml

and a poor quality mobile phone copy is here:

I'd be happy to "lend" her my hockey sweater, any time!

Kevin R

[Ninapenda Jibini]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Robert Carnegie
He persuades her not to escape while there is time.
The rape presumably occurs during the instrumental break
and is not heard.
These days the adjective "coercive" seems to be in fashion.

When I hear "coercion" I think "the threat of the use of
force" or "actually using force." It gets stretched to
other unsavory things, like blackmail/extortion, when an
economic threat is used: "if you want to keep your job...."
Some people are economically secure enough to quit and work
elsewhere, but by no mean everybody. "Emotional blackmail" -
of the "if you loved me, you'd sleep with me" variety, is NOT
coercion. I'm not saying that's not manipulative behavior,
and, to use terminology not in fashion, unbecoming of a
gentleman. But calling any kind of pressure or persuasive
tactic "coercion" robs the word of its meaning.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/coercion

Force _or threats_. If you look at the definition of "threat," you
might find it's a bit more expansive than your personal definition.

Unless you provide a receipt showing your personal ownership of the
English language, you're using the word somewhat differently than
common usage.

This is, of course, Trolling 101 on the interwebs.

[Ninapenda Jibini]

Post by Titus G

Post by Robert Carnegie

On Thursday, December 6, 2018 at 7:00:42 PM UTC-5, David

Post by Quadibloc

On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 12:17:29 PM UTC-5,

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outsid
e-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radi
o

It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say,
what's in this drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate
connotations; then, those might have been involved of course,
but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's likely just
wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she
hasn't encountered that particular drink before, or the like.
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men"
was a Maxim for ladies of any age on the same level as "don't
take candy from strangers" was for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?

The line "Say, what's in this drink?" was a period idiom. It
meant effectively, “I intend to do something socially
frowned upon (such as spend the night with my boyfriend), and
I’m generating plausible deniability of responsibility by
saying I’m drunk.”
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-
in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may
misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender
to the ignorant.

I don't buy this interpretation. If she intended to sleep
with him tonight all along, then why is she complaining
/to him/ about the situation? They're clearly in private,
she doesn't need to make excuses or to continue to resist,
which she does. Of course then the song would be a lot
shorter. "Oh, the hell with it. Come and get it,
big boy."
I suppose

Don't. Read the article Peter Trei referenced before digging any deeper.

You assume that Bobbie wants to, or is willing to, actually know
what he's talking about. I find that doubtful.

[Alan Baker]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Post by Kevrob
It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say, what's in this
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate connotations; then, those might
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's
likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men" was a Maxim for
ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take candy from strangers" was
for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?

The line "Say, what's in this drink?" was a period idiom. It meant effectively, “I intend to do something socially frowned upon (such as spend the night with my boyfriend), and I’m generating plausible deniability of responsibility by saying I’m drunk.”
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender to the ignorant.

I don't buy this interpretation. If she intended to sleep
with him tonight all along, then why is she complaining
/to him/ about the situation? They're clearly in private,
she doesn't need to make excuses or to continue to resist,
which she does. Of course then the song would be a lot
shorter. "Oh, the hell with it. Come and get it,
big boy."

Oh, come ON!

This is a song about being coquettish and saying one thing, but not
really meaning it

Post by Robert Carnegie
I suppose she might not have the vocabulary or the courage
(and the stupidity) for that. But a song is expressive
by nature, and I don't think this piece is subtle enough to
cast her as well as him as unreliable narrator.

Not unreliable; just not saying precisely what they each mean.

[Titus G]

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender to the ignorant.

What uninformed modern listener learning from their newspaper or
television that something with authority had banned something would do
the research to investigate whether this was reasonable unless they
already had an interest in the issue and the necessary background knowledge?
Whilst I would not have originally labelled the song as strongly as an
ode to rape, I was an uninformed modern listener before following your
web link. Thank you.

[Greg Goss]

Post by Peter Trei
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/
It’s certainly true that an uninformed modern listener may misinterpret this, but that calls for education, not surrender to the ignorant.

I just spent twenty minutes looking for this cite, and you repeated it
where I wanted to paste it. I should have just kept reading. :)

[Alan Baker]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Post by Kevrob
It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say, what's in this
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate connotations; then, those might
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the song unimpaired, she's
likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.

At the time, that was a way to say that one had done or said something a
little over the line.

Post by Quadibloc
(Though even back then, "don't take drinks from strange men" was a Maxim for
ladies of any age on the same level as "don't take candy from strangers" was
for children...)
Dave, would you like to hear about my Homestuck etchings?
ps: expecting followup from Dorothy in three... two ... one .. .. ..

[David Johnston]

Post by Alan Baker

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to

  -rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

Post by Kevrob
It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

The issue stems mainly from one of the lady's lines, "Say, what's in this
drink?". These days that has VERY unfortunate connotations; then, those might
have been involved of course, but since she finishes the song
unimpaired,

The idea that she finishes the song unimpaired is highly implausible.

she's

Post by Alan Baker

likely just wondering what the liquors mixed to make it are, or she hasn't
encountered that particular drink before, or the like.

At the time, that was a way to say that one had done or said something a
little over the line.

At the time, that was a way to say "I'm drunker than I expected to be".

[David DeLaney]

Post by David Johnston

Post by Alan Baker

Post by David DeLaney
but since she finishes the song unimpaired,

The idea that she finishes the song unimpaired is highly implausible.

... Listen to the song, dude. Any impairment she may be under is not at ALL
evident in her pitch, her pronunciation, her vowel-sustainment, etc. She is
not mumbling, slurring her words, or giving other sign of already being drunk,
sleepy, woozy, etc. Fight me on this.

Post by David Johnston

Post by Alan Baker
At the time, that was a way to say that one had done or said something a
little over the line.

At the time, that was a way to say "I'm drunker than I expected to be".

Dave, por que no los dos?

[David Johnston]

Post by David DeLaney

Post by David Johnston

Post by David DeLaney
but since she finishes the song unimpaired,

The idea that she finishes the song unimpaired is highly implausible.

... Listen to the song, dude. Any impairment she may be under is not at ALL
evident in her pitch, her pronunciation, her vowel-sustainment, etc. She is
not mumbling, slurring her words, or giving other sign of already being drunk,
sleepy, woozy, etc. Fight me on this.

That's because the character is drunk...not the singer.

[David Johnston]

Post by David Johnston

Post by David DeLaney

Post by David Johnston

Post by David DeLaney
but since she finishes the song unimpaired,

The idea that she finishes the song unimpaired is highly implausible.

... Listen to the song, dude. Any impairment she may be under is not at ALL
evident in her pitch, her pronunciation, her vowel-sustainment, etc. She is
not mumbling, slurring her words, or giving other sign of already being drunk,
sleepy, woozy, etc. Fight me on this.

That's because the character is drunk...not the singer.

Well I shouldn't say "drunk". More likely "tipsy". But that's not the
same thing as unimpaired.

[m***@sky.com]

Post by David Johnston

Post by David DeLaney

Post by David Johnston

Post by David DeLaney
but since she finishes the song unimpaired,

The idea that she finishes the song unimpaired is highly implausible.

... Listen to the song, dude. Any impairment she may be under is not at ALL
evident in her pitch, her pronunciation, her vowel-sustainment, etc. She is
not mumbling, slurring her words, or giving other sign of already being drunk,
sleepy, woozy, etc. Fight me on this.

That's because the character is drunk...not the singer.

I am reminded of female opera singers whose robust physique belies the plot that says their character is dying of TB. (But I have not analysed the song in question - I always heard it as a light-hearted piece of nonsense.)

[Greg Goss]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

"Say, what's in this drink"

He pours her a "half drink" and she suspects that it's spiked with
something, Cosby style.

[Greg Goss]

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

"Say, what's in this drink"
He pours her a "half drink" and she suspects that it's spiked with
something, Cosby style.

(Written before reading Peter's link to the feminist site.)

[Alan Baker]

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/is-baby-its-cold-outside-an-ode-to-rape-that-deserves-its-sudden-banishment-from-canadian-radio

It may be about "date rape" (sic,) but not "statutory rape.
It's about seduction. is ALL seduction rape, now?

"Say, what's in this drink"
He pours her a "half drink" and she suspects that it's spiked with
something, Cosby style.

Ummmmm... ...no.

[m***@sky.com]

Post by Quadibloc
That might perhaps be a bit overblown, but it was with great regret that I read
https://etcanada.com/news/392335/neil-degrasse-tyson-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-3-women-cosmos-networks-and-producers-promise-to-investigate/
as one of the few voices for Science in America appears about to be silenced.
John Savard

FWIW people are supposedly trying to improve Science in America by more obvious means - https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/america-will-win-global-competition-stem-talent/ I didn't see anything there on in the linked report that struck me as novel or impressive, but I guess it counts at least as an attempt. I would settle for just throwing money at DARPA and DIMACS

[Quadibloc]

Post by m***@sky.com
FWIW people are supposedly trying to improve Science in America by more obvious
means -
https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/america-will-win-global-competition-stem-talent/
I didn't see anything there on in the linked report that struck me as novel or
impressive, but I guess it counts at least as an attempt. I would settle for
just throwing money at DARPA and DIMACS

I'm just tickled pink that the Trump administration is doing something good, and
actually recognizes that science and technology are good things for America
instead of a plot to turn Americans into godless Communists. There may be hope
for him yet.

John Savard

[m***@sky.com]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by m***@sky.com
FWIW people are supposedly trying to improve Science in America by more obvious
means -
https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/america-will-win-global-competition-stem-talent/
I didn't see anything there on in the linked report that struck me as novel or
impressive, but I guess it counts at least as an attempt. I would settle for
just throwing money at DARPA and DIMACS

I'm just tickled pink that the Trump administration is doing something good, and
actually recognizes that science and technology are good things for America
instead of a plot to turn Americans into godless Communists. There may be hope
for him yet.
John Savard

I'd believe somebody who said that document was just the system running on autopilot, but I heard an interesting comment from Paul Ryan in an interview I think with the Washington Post on him leaving the speakership.

Paul Ryan described how he worked out a Gantt chart of his legislative plans for the speakership and agreed this with Trump ahead of time. Of course the interviewer gave the mandatory derisive laugh at the very idea that Trump might be capable of reading a Gantt chart, but Ryan pointed out. "Hey, the guy used to build skyscrapers. He can read Gantt charts." Maybe other aspects of science that help when building skyscrapers are saleable, too.

[J. Clarke]

Post by m***@sky.com

Post by Quadibloc

Post by m***@sky.com
FWIW people are supposedly trying to improve Science in America by more obvious
means -
https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/america-will-win-global-competition-stem-talent/
I didn't see anything there on in the linked report that struck me as novel or
impressive, but I guess it counts at least as an attempt. I would settle for
just throwing money at DARPA and DIMACS

I'm just tickled pink that the Trump administration is doing something good, and
actually recognizes that science and technology are good things for America
instead of a plot to turn Americans into godless Communists. There may be hope
for him yet.
John Savard

I'd believe somebody who said that document was just the system running on autopilot, but I heard an interesting comment from Paul Ryan in an interview I think with the Washington Post on him leaving the speakership.
Paul Ryan described how he worked out a Gantt chart of his legislative plans for the speakership and agreed this with Trump ahead of time. Of course the interviewer gave the mandatory derisive laugh at the very idea that Trump might be capable of reading a Gantt chart, but Ryan pointed out. "Hey, the guy used to build skyscrapers. He can read Gantt charts." Maybe other aspects of science that help when building skyscrapers are saleable, too.

What's going to end up happening is that more money gets poured into
the same broken system. There isn't enough money in the entire
universe to fix American education until they get over the notion that
the way to do it is to pull the best and brightest down to the same
level as the worst and dumbest.