a quintessential guitar nerd survey

[Tony Morris]

How many people out there who play right hand cross-string trills use
amip versus aimp?

tm

[David Kilpatrick]

On 5/1/04 7:40 am, in article

Post by Tony Morris
How many people out there who play right hand cross-string trills use
amip versus aimp?

Probably apip, sadly, while leaving the bass alone for one nanosecond. DK

[William Jennings]

Post by Tony Morris
How many people out there who play right hand cross-string trills use
amip versus aimp?
tm

It depends on the situation but most often I use -miam- and do not
involve the thumb. Sometimes for fun I use p in things I fiddle with
but as a rule I like to keep _p_ near the bass strings. P_ on the 2nd.
string puts the entire hand out of position while _miam_ centers and
balances the hand on _m_. Often, after a trill a bass note or inner
voice is required and -miam-sometimes allows the thumb to balance
(relaxed) on a bass string lending stability to the hand for precise
rhythms and fast ( tight) articulations which are secure.

che'

[Lutemann]

Post by Tony Morris
How many people out there who play right hand cross-string trills use
amip versus aimp?

aimp should be better
*****************************************************
Kent Murdick
Free Guitar Instruction CD/Video: Go to http://stringdancer.com/
and search for Murdick
http://members.aol.com/lutemann/guitar.html

[Stanley Yates]

Post by Tony Morris
How many people out there who play right hand cross-string trills use
amip versus aimp?

Hi Tony,

I've always used miam - so the thumb can play/damp basses at the beginning
and end if needed..

Cheers,

Stanley

[Edward Bridge]

"Stanley Yates" <***@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:kffKb.19246$***@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
,

I've always used miam - >

That's not easily . I just tried it.

Ed Bridge

[John Sloan]

Post by Edward Bridge
,

I've always used miam - >

That's not easily . I just tried it.

Is there a misprint here? Doesn't miam involve using the m finger two times
in a row? That is, you start and finish each four-note group with the
same finger. Not fluid enough for me, but perhaps someone with Stanley's
ability can pull it off.

Anybody tried aimi?

John Sloan

[John Sloan]

Post by John Sloan

Post by Edward Bridge
,

I've always used miam - >

That's not easily . I just tried it.

Is there a misprint here? Doesn't miam involve using the m finger two times
in a row? That is, you start and finish each four-note group with the
same finger. Not fluid enough for me, but perhaps someone with Stanley's
ability can pull it off.

I see my mistake. The miam is played only one time through. I was thinking
of it lasting longer for some reason, as in miammiam, for example.

John Sloan

[William Jennings]

Post by John Sloan
I see my mistake. The miam is played only one time through. I was thinking
of it lasting longer for some reason, as in miammiam, for example.

That's interesting, guess I've been doing things wrong the past 30
years. I will punish myself for doing the 7s, 8s. and
the evil 12 note continuous trill. I have been bad and confess here in
public. I might sneak in a 5er if no ones looking,
why not, no one here would catch me. There I go.... doing naughty
under-handed stuff again.

Che' the Naughty One

P.S. It was a naughty little shaping of the staggered fingers and roll
that I misdirected myself with at the time.

P.P.S Bet I'll never catch on to that miam thingie.

Woe is Che'

[John Sloan]

Post by John Sloan

Post by John Sloan
I see my mistake. The miam is played only one time through. I was

thinking

Post by John Sloan
of it lasting longer for some reason, as in miammiam, for example.

That's interesting, guess I've been doing things wrong the past 30
years. I will punish myself for doing the 7s, 8s. and
the evil 12 note continuous trill. I have been bad and confess here in
public. I might sneak in a 5er if no ones looking,
why not, no one here would catch me. There I go.... doing naughty
under-handed stuff again.

For your penance write "I will not play miam more than once at a time" 500
times.

John Sloan

[William Jennings]

Post by John Sloan
For your penance write "I will not play miam more than once at a time" 500
times.

"I will not play miam more than once at a time","I will not play miam
more than once at a time","I will not play miam more than once at a
time","I will not play miam more than once at a time", "I will not play
miam more than once at a time",I will not play miam more than once at a
time","I will play miam more than once at a time","I will play miam more
than once at a time"I will play miam more than once at a time", "I will
play miam more than once at a time", "I will play miam more than once at
a time",
"I will not play miam more than once at a time","I will not play miam
more than once at a time","I will not play miam more than once at a
time","I will not play miam more than once at a time", "I will not play
miam more than once at a time",I will not play miam more than once at a
time","I will play miam more than once at a time","I will play miam more
than once at a time"I will play miam more than once at a time", "I will
play miam more than once at a time", "I will play miam more than once at
a time",
"I will not play miam more than once at a time","I will not play miam
more than once at a time","I will not play miam more than once at a
time","I will not play miam more than once at a time", "I will not play
miam more than once at a time",I will not play miam more than once at a
time","I will play miam more than once at a time","I will play miam more
than once at a time"I will play miam more than once at a time", "I will
play miam more than once at a time", "I will play miam more than once at
a time",
"I will not play miam more than once at a time","I will not play miam
more than once at a time","I will not play miam more than once at a
time","I will not play miam more than once at a time", "I will not play
miam more than once at a time",I will not play miam more than once at a
time","I will play miam more than once at a time","I will play miam more
than once at a time"I will play miam more than once at a time", "I will
play miam more than once at a time", "I will play miam more than once at
a time",
"I will not play miam more than once at a time","I will not play miam
more than once at a time","I will not play miam more than once at a
time","I will not play miam more than once at a time", "I will not play
miam more than once at a time",I will not play miam more than once at a
time","I will play miam more than once at a time","I will play miam more
than once at a time"I will play miam more than once at a time", "I will
play miam more than once at a time", "I will play miam more than once at
a time",
"I will not play miam more than once at a time","I will not play miam
more than once at a time","I will not play miam more than once at a
time","I will not play miam more than once at a time", "I will not play
miam more than once at a time",I will not play miam more than once at a
time","I will play miam more than once at a time","I will play miam more
than once at a time"I will play miam more than once at a time", "I will
play miam more than once at a time", "I will play miam more than once at
a time",
"I will not play miam more than once at a time","I will not play miam
more than once at a time","I will not play miam more than once at a
time","I will not play miam more than once at a time", "I will not play
miam more than once at a time",I will not play miam more than once at a
time","I will play miam more than once at a time","I will play miam more
than once at a time"I will play miam more than once at a time", "I will
play miam more than once at a time", "I will play miam more than once at
a time",

I cheated because I am a willful, naughty Che', a rough dancer and
that's how I play.

[John Sloan]

Post by William Jennings
I cheated because I am a willful, naughty Che', a rough dancer and
that's how I play.

I wouldn't mind seeing or hearing you play the guitar someday. Have you
ever considered posting an mp3 sometime?

John Sloan

[William Jennings]

Post by John Sloan

Post by William Jennings
I cheated because I am a willful, naughty Che', a rough dancer and
that's how I play.

I wouldn't mind seeing or hearing you play the guitar someday. Have you
ever considered posting an mp3 sometime?
John Sloan

John,

Something I wrote yesterday but didn't post would have had great bearing
on
this. Play in the context of "rough dancer has nothing to do with
playing the guitar." In brief, some people want to be convinced, ( I
wrote and sent a private email regarding this exact word today, to
another here) seeing is believing, I understand because I absolutely
demanded seeing the thing done.

I will ponder this and promise nothing. Our friend Tony an I did this
little dance before. Tony knows the requirements and how to contact my
agent in Houston concerning these affairs.

Che'

[John Sloan]

Post by William Jennings
Something I wrote yesterday but didn't post would have had great bearing
on
this. Play in the context of "rough dancer has nothing to do with
playing the guitar." In brief, some people want to be convinced, ( I
wrote and sent a private email regarding this exact word today, to
another here) seeing is believing, I understand because I absolutely
demanded seeing the thing done.
I will ponder this and promise nothing. Our friend Tony an I did this
little dance before. Tony knows the requirements and how to contact my
agent in Houston concerning these affairs.

I hope you're not holding back because you feel like you'd be throwing
pearls before swine. For me it isn't a matter of needing or wanting to be
convinced of anything. I just wanted to hear you play. Hope to someday.

John Sloan

[William Jennings]

Post by John Sloan
I hope you're not holding back because you feel like you'd be throwing
pearls before swine. For me it isn't a matter of needing or wanting to be
convinced of anything. I just wanted to hear you play. Hope to someday.
John Sloan

You can type in my name here: www.southernmusic.com/ an I'll send you a
recording of these items, El Colibri
and a Jose Asuncion Flores arrangement that demonstrates some things
I've mentioned here. You mentioned
you were working on El Colibri and I do this every year for their
arrival. They come here by the thousands
in the spring afet their long flights from south america. We have a
festival down the road in Rockport that's quite well known to bird
lovers. You may recall an old post of mine four years ago " Tiny Mirrors
of Wisdom For The Price of One Summers
Rotten Banana's"......

Che'

[Lutemann]

Post by Stanley Yates
I've always used miam - so the thumb can play/damp basses at the beginning
and end if needed..

I got this from you Stanley and like it very much. What do you do if you want
to continue the trill? I've used miam,aP,miam,aP.....
*****************************************************
Kent Murdick
Free Guitar Instruction CD/Video: Go to http://stringdancer.com/
and search for Murdick
http://members.aol.com/lutemann/guitar.html

[paul C]

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 09:19:32 -0600, "Stanley Yates"

Post by Stanley Yates

Post by Tony Morris
How many people out there who play right hand cross-string trills use
amip versus aimp?

Hi Tony,
I've always used miam - so the thumb can play/damp basses at the beginning
and end if needed..
Cheers,
Stanley

You da man Stan

paul

[Matanya Ophee]

Post by Tony Morris
How many people out there who play right hand cross-string trills use
amip versus aimp?

I play paim. Learned it from one old guy named Andrei Sychra who
published this in 1817.



Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: [phone]
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html

[William Jennings]

Post by Matanya Ophee

Post by Tony Morris
How many people out there who play right hand cross-string trills use
amip versus aimp?

I play paim. Learned it from one old guy named Andrei Sychra who
published this in 1817.

Old Uncle Sychra cashed in your reality check. .

Che'

[Mike P.]

aimp

I just bought Stanley's cello suites volume (great book!) and have
been lazily experimenting with the rh trill fingerings that he
suggests in there (and elsewhere in this thread). So far I still like
aimp, but I acknowledge that at this point it's quite likely that it's
because I've used aimp so much more. Also, as a duffer, I tend to
deploy x-string trills only where there's plenty of time at the end of
a phrase etc. -- in other words, I don't usually have to "reserve" my
thumb for bass notes occurring very soon before or after the trill.

Mike P.

[David Schramm]

I use both.

[Edward Bridge]

I had a teach once say " no door bells Mr. Bridge" . I didn't know what he
was talking about until I cross-string trills again then he smack my guitar
and said "no #$#$"n door bells" I won't go into my reaction but he point
was , on Baroque guitar they didn't do cross-string trills "in the day" and
either should we, should we?



Thank you.

Peace,

Ed Bridge
www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS]

Post by Edward Bridge
I had a teach once say " no door bells Mr. Bridge" . I didn't know what he
was talking about until I cross-string trills again then he smack my guitar
and said "no #$#$"n door bells" I won't go into my reaction but he point
was , on Baroque guitar they didn't do cross-string trills "in the day" and
either should we, should we?
Thank you.
Peace,
Ed Bridge
www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com

Not Doug, I hope. I'll have to have Lauren do a tap dance on his head!!

Steve


--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
http://www.dentaltwins.com

[Edward Bridge]

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS

Post by Edward Bridge
I had a teach once say " no door bells Mr. Bridge" . I didn't know what he
was talking about until I cross-string trills again then he smack my guitar
and said "no #$#$"n door bells" I won't go into my reaction but he point
was , on Baroque guitar they didn't do cross-string trills "in the day"

and

Post by Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS

Post by Edward Bridge
either should we, should we?
Thank you.
Peace,
Ed Bridge
www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com

Not Doug, I hope. I'll have to have Lauren do a tap dance on his head!!

No, I'm Doug's teacher , this was my old teacher who's the same height as
Doug but 50 pounds less muscle but Lauren can still tap dance on that old
teachers head if she likes.:>)

Here's to cross-string trills . .Cheers

Ed Bridge
www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com

[Matanya Ophee]

Post by Edward Bridge
I had a teach once say " no door bells Mr. Bridge" . I didn't know what he
was talking about until I cross-string trills again then he smack my guitar
and said "no #$#$"n door bells" I won't go into my reaction but he point
was , on Baroque guitar they didn't do cross-string trills "in the day" and
either should we, should we?

Depends what day of the week the music comes from. Your teacher was
actually wrong.


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: [phone]
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html

[David Kilpatrick]

On 5/1/04 8:42 pm, in article

Post by Edward Bridge
I had a teach once say " no door bells Mr. Bridge" . I didn't know what he
was talking about until I cross-string trills again then he smack my guitar
and said "no #$#$"n door bells" I won't go into my reaction but he point
was , on Baroque guitar they didn't do cross-string trills "in the day" and
either should we, should we?

Yes they did, and the effect was valued highly - it was called a 'shake' and
was normally executed with finger and thumb. In common with harpsichord,
lute and cittern the sound of two strings ringing out a single note,
semitone or min/major third apart was liked, not disliked, in the baroque
era. They even liked violin playing with a shake executed across two strings
- almost unthinkable today, when the use of open strings on violin is
frowned on except for special FX. Folk fiddlers everywhere still use open
strings, and still use similar techniques - requires phenomenal bowing
skill.

David

[Edward Bridge]

Post by David Kilpatrick
Yes they did, and the effect was valued highly - it was called a 'shake' and
was normally executed with finger and thumb. In common with harpsichord,
lute and cittern the sound of two strings ringing out a single note,
semitone or min/major third apart was liked, not disliked, in the baroque
era. They even liked violin playing with a shake executed across two strings
- almost unthinkable today, when the use of open strings on violin is
frowned on except for special FX. Folk fiddlers everywhere still use open
strings, and still use similar techniques - requires phenomenal bowing
skill.

Okay. . Thank you . . remember I real green and slow on this sooooooo here
we go . . . .. did they use "our" cross-string trills on Baroque guitar .
let's say those who wrote on the Baroque guitar ,did they write the trill
in ? The "shake" sounds a lot different then whatmost people do now. Is
there a source where I can read it? Ha , Most likely in my file cabinet.:>)

I play a "blues player" trill but I like hearing players use cross-string
trills , I use trills too much like when I get lost while reading a score
and a easy trill is one I use so I don't fall flat on my face.

I should hits the books a bit more on this. Now it's back to taxes. .

Thank you.

Peace,

Ed Bridge
www.bridgekaldromusic.com

[David Kilpatrick]

On 6/1/04 4:19 am, in article

Post by William Jennings

Post by David Kilpatrick
Yes they did, and the effect was valued highly - it was called a 'shake'

and

Post by David Kilpatrick
was normally executed with finger and thumb. In common with harpsichord,
lute and cittern the sound of two strings ringing out a single note,
semitone or min/major third apart was liked, not disliked, in the baroque
era. They even liked violin playing with a shake executed across two

strings

Post by David Kilpatrick
- almost unthinkable today, when the use of open strings on violin is
frowned on except for special FX. Folk fiddlers everywhere still use open
strings, and still use similar techniques - requires phenomenal bowing
skill.

Okay. . Thank you . . remember I real green and slow on this sooooooo here
we go . . . .. did they use "our" cross-string trills on Baroque guitar .
let's say those who wrote on the Baroque guitar ,did they write the trill
in ? The "shake" sounds a lot different then whatmost people do now. Is
there a source where I can read it? Ha , Most likely in my file cabinet.:>)
I play a "blues player" trill but I like hearing players use cross-string
trills , I use trills too much like when I get lost while reading a score
and a easy trill is one I use so I don't fall flat on my face.

The best description is from Bremner writing instructions for English
guittar, where he describes what a shake is and how it can be best executed
on two adjacent strings - most Baroque musicians don't bother to explain.
Geminiani, writing for English guittar or guitar and commenting that his
tunes are fine for violin (!), just says this:

"I shall not trouble the reader with explaining all the different graces
viz.t a Shake, Beat, Appogiatura &c but refer those to the Instructions of a
good Master or the genious of the Performer"

That is in 1760. He puts the Shake first in his list of ornaments, and
assumes the aspiring player is so familiar with it there's no need to
explain.

Rob MacKillop revived this ornament for lute, guitar, English guittar, etc
after researching it. It is also used to describe a two-note vocal trill -
the term probably comes from singing originally - and it found in
Elizabethan references. Sort of limited range yodel. I have heard this
technique in Scottish renaissance singing and it's amazing as well as almost
impossible; extremely rapid alternation between two distinct notes, like a
bird.

Since baroque performance involved the player making variations and
improvisations - a straight rendering off a bit of paper would NEVER have
satisfied an audience of the time - players were expected to ornament at
their own discretion. Any notation which shows 'tr' etc is showing places
where the writer thought this essential. It does not mean that the player
should avoid ornaments throughout the rest of the piece, or even stick to
the written notes. They should be played at least once in their simplest
form. After that, it was up to the player. He/she might even add a
completely improvised passage bearing no obvious relationship to the piece,
as long as a final return was made to the original tune.

This is how the later classical 'forms' evolved - from a formalisation of
the baroque improvisations, and the habit of baroque players of grouping
three different tunes (or dances) as a set played in sequence.

'And for your enjoyment our next set will start with a moderate pavane,
followed by canaries, and then a quick volta...'

David

[Richard Spross]

Post by Tony Morris
How many people out there who play right hand cross-string trills use
amip versus aimp?
tm

Doesn't the choice of fingers depend upon how many strings are
employed in the ornament and the degree and amount of embellishment
used?

That being said, I think there is no one solution, but only a solution
which fits the nature of the music being embellished.

Richard Spross

[Tony Morris]

Post by Tony Morris
How many people out there who play right hand cross-string trills use
amip versus aimp?
tm

I have been using amip for many years for short, (4 note) trills, but
found it unsatisfactory for fast, continous, accellerando trills, as
it has the speed, but is uneven. Aimp works fine for quick 4 note
trills, and I am trying that one out for a while to see if it will fit
the bill for longer ones.

A few random notes: David Russell uses aimp, and he is pretty much the
gold standard for baroque ornamention on guitar, imho. Lutenist Nigel
North despises cross-string trills, which is understandable: doesn't
work too well on double course instruments like lute.

Thanks to everyone for their contribution to this worthy subject. Not
only did I find out what r.h. fingerings are being used by different
people, I also learned of some new fingerings that I hadn't
considered, learned of historical examples of it in the repertoire,
learned of an online treatise into the subject, and was entertained by
a few wisecracks. Perfect!

Cheers, Everyone,

Tony Morris

[William Jennings]

Post by Tony Morris
A few random notes: David Russell uses aimp, and he is pretty much the
gold standard for baroque ornamention on guitar, imho.

Nope Tony, David was putting you on with the "Goat Trill." The Goat
trill was used by English coal miners as a "canary killer" to administer
a humane coup de grace to an asphyxiating canary. This is dictated
under strict British law requirements. It is also known as the 3W Trill
( Wayward, Wobbly, Weighty) If you spray your fingers with WD 40 you
get a 'spin' triller.
A spin triller floats with a marshmellow aura, but is also capable of
'zinging.'

I hope this helps. If you need additional information please do not
hesitate to contact me or David Russell.

Do you have his email address?

Che'

[DCaswellUK]

Post by Tony Morris
How many people out there who play right hand cross-string trills use
amip versus aimp?

I read the responses to this question and was surprised that no one mentioned
the double finger drag technique...iimm
which works very nicely for an ornament like this (really more of a double
mordent than a trill)
Regards
David Caswell

[John Sloan]

Post by DCaswellUK

Post by Tony Morris
How many people out there who play right hand cross-string trills use
amip versus aimp?

I read the responses to this question and was surprised that no one mentioned
the double finger drag technique...iimm
which works very nicely for an ornament like this (really more of a double
mordent than a trill)

One of my teachers used this, and very effectively, too. It's similar to
doing a double-string rest stroke with each consecutive finger, though not
so heavy. It's very easy to repeat for 4+note ornaments.

John Sloan

[William Jennings]

Post by DCaswellUK

Post by Tony Morris
How many people out there who play right hand cross-string trills use
amip versus aimp?

I read the responses to this question and was surprised that no one mentioned
the double finger drag technique...iimm

Because the subject was trills, at least in my case. Drags "Rakes"
comes more from the flamenco side of the house. I've got a neat one I
can send via attachment if you like. :-)