Hercules and a group situation

[Gregg C Levine]

Hello from Gregg C Levine

I've got a problem, being posed as a question. If this isn't the right
group for it, then I'll sign for the advocacy group. Here it is. Do the
developers have a problem if I were to install Hercules on a Linux box
that I am setting up for a customer? The idea is to provide exposure to
the IBM mainframe world to the people at the client's location. It would
be running VM/370rel6, and of course I'd need to sift the documentation
to see what would be a good grouping of user IDs, and passwords to use
for the group, can't have them logging in as MAINT. Or Volker's MVS
setup. If I can convince them to allow me to install the this
arrangement, that is. If anyone has a problem, I'd be delight to hear
it, but please, contact me off list with it. Advice I'll cheerfully
accept on list.

-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon-XfrvlLN1Pqtfpb/***@public.gmane.org
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )





------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[S. Vetter]

I for one have no problem. It won't be used as a production setup so that
eliminates some concerns I've heard about. What's wrong with MVS?

Scott

Post by Gregg C Levine
Hello from Gregg C Levine
I've got a problem, being posed as a question. If this isn't the right
group for it, then I'll sign for the advocacy group. Here it is. Do the
developers have a problem if I were to install Hercules on a Linux box
that I am setting up for a customer? The idea is to provide exposure to
the IBM mainframe world to the people at the client's location. It would
be running VM/370rel6, and of course I'd need to sift the documentation
to see what would be a good grouping of user IDs, and passwords to use
for the group, can't have them logging in as MAINT. Or Volker's MVS
setup. If I can convince them to allow me to install the this
arrangement, that is. If anyone has a problem, I'd be delight to hear
it, but please, contact me off list with it. Advice I'll cheerfully
accept on list.
-------------------
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[Gregg C Levine]

Hello from Gregg C Levine

Okay, thanks Scott for you’re your prompt reply. What's wrong, you ask?
Why nothing! I just don't know much about it.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon-XfrvlLN1Pqtfpb/***@public.gmane.org
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 12:15 AM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Hercules and a group situation
I for one have no problem. It won't be used as a production setup so that
eliminates some concerns I've heard about. What's wrong with MVS?
Scott

Post by Gregg C Levine
Hello from Gregg C Levine
I've got a problem, being posed as a question. If this isn't the right
group for it, then I'll sign for the advocacy group. Here it is. Do the
developers have a problem if I were to install Hercules on a Linux box
that I am setting up for a customer? The idea is to provide exposure to
the IBM mainframe world to the people at the client's location. It would
be running VM/370rel6, and of course I'd need to sift the

documentation

Post by Gregg C Levine
to see what would be a good grouping of user IDs, and passwords to use
for the group, can't have them logging in as MAINT. Or Volker's MVS
setup. If I can convince them to allow me to install the this
arrangement, that is. If anyone has a problem, I'd be delight to hear
it, but please, contact me off list with it. Advice I'll cheerfully
accept on list.
-------------------
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[S. Vetter]

Just getting ready to head to bed and thought I would read and respond to any
messages. Ah, a good reason. If they want to see such a system (MVS), I
could set them up with such, as long as it's not used for production.

Scott

--------

Post by Gregg C Levine
Hello from Gregg C Levine
Okay, thanks Scott for you’re your prompt reply. What's wrong, you ask?
Why nothing! I just don't know much about it.
-------------------
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 12:15 AM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Hercules and a group situation
I for one have no problem. It won't be used as a production setup

so that

eliminates some concerns I've heard about. What's wrong with MVS?
Scott

Post by Gregg C Levine
Hello from Gregg C Levine
I've got a problem, being posed as a question. If this isn't the

right

Post by Gregg C Levine
group for it, then I'll sign for the advocacy group. Here it is. Do

the

Post by Gregg C Levine
developers have a problem if I were to install Hercules on a Linux

box

Post by Gregg C Levine
that I am setting up for a customer? The idea is to provide exposure

to

Post by Gregg C Levine
the IBM mainframe world to the people at the client's location. It

would

Post by Gregg C Levine
be running VM/370rel6, and of course I'd need to sift the

documentation

Post by Gregg C Levine
to see what would be a good grouping of user IDs, and passwords to

use

Post by Gregg C Levine
for the group, can't have them logging in as MAINT. Or Volker's MVS
setup. If I can convince them to allow me to install the this
arrangement, that is. If anyone has a problem, I'd be delight to

hear

Post by Gregg C Levine
it, but please, contact me off list with it. Advice I'll cheerfully
accept on list.
-------------------
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[Gregg C Levine]

Hello from Gregg C Levine

Yes, that's my only reason. No, it won't be used for production. I fully
understand, and agree to the licensing arrangements, that Jay, and
company evolved over the past few years. As to your idea, I'll have to
wait and see how my first idea prospers.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon-XfrvlLN1Pqtfpb/***@public.gmane.org
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 12:29 AM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Hercules and a group situation
Just getting ready to head to bed and thought I would read and respond to any
messages. Ah, a good reason. If they want to see such a system (MVS), I
could set them up with such, as long as it's not used for production.
Scott
--------

Post by Gregg C Levine
Hello from Gregg C Levine
Okay, thanks Scott for you’re your prompt reply. What's wrong, you ask?
Why nothing! I just don't know much about it.
-------------------
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 12:15 AM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Hercules and a group situation
I for one have no problem. It won't be used as a production setup

so that

eliminates some concerns I've heard about. What's wrong with MVS?
Scott

Post by Gregg C Levine
Hello from Gregg C Levine
I've got a problem, being posed as a question. If this isn't the

right

Post by Gregg C Levine
group for it, then I'll sign for the advocacy group. Here it is. Do

the

Post by Gregg C Levine
developers have a problem if I were to install Hercules on a Linux

box

Post by Gregg C Levine
that I am setting up for a customer? The idea is to provide exposure

to

Post by Gregg C Levine
the IBM mainframe world to the people at the client's location. It

would

Post by Gregg C Levine
be running VM/370rel6, and of course I'd need to sift the

documentation

Post by Gregg C Levine
to see what would be a good grouping of user IDs, and passwords to

use

Post by Gregg C Levine
for the group, can't have them logging in as MAINT. Or Volker's MVS
setup. If I can convince them to allow me to install the this
arrangement, that is. If anyone has a problem, I'd be delight to

hear

Post by Gregg C Levine
it, but please, contact me off list with it. Advice I'll

cheerfully

Post by Gregg C Levine

Post by Gregg C Levine
accept on list.
-------------------
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[Dan]

Strictly out of curiosity, why can't it be used for production?
--Dan

Post by S. Vetter
Just getting ready to head to bed and thought I would read and

respond to any

Post by S. Vetter
messages. Ah, a good reason. If they want to see such a system (MVS), I
could set them up with such, as long as it's not used for

production.



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[Gregg C Levine]

Hello from Gregg C Levine

Have you read the license yet? I did. On all separate occasions. The
license strictly forbids the use of Hercules beyond the activities that
we are using it for. Jay Maynard, and Roger Bowler, feel that the use of
Hercules for such an application violates that license. And besides,
Hercules, while a very good emulator, doesn't have all of the bells and
whistles that a few others have. Yet. It can be used for teaching, and
demonstration purposes, but that's about it. When you use it, you are in
fact learning something about the Mainframe world.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon-XfrvlLN1Pqtfpb/***@public.gmane.org
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 6:50 AM
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: Hercules and a group situation
Strictly out of curiosity, why can't it be used for production?
--Dan

Post by S. Vetter
Just getting ready to head to bed and thought I would read and

respond to any

Post by S. Vetter
messages. Ah, a good reason. If they want to see such a system

(MVS), I

Post by S. Vetter
could set them up with such, as long as it's not used for

production.
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[Jay Maynard]

Post by Gregg C Levine
Have you read the license yet? I did. On all separate occasions. The
license strictly forbids the use of Hercules beyond the activities that
we are using it for. Jay Maynard, and Roger Bowler, feel that the use of
Hercules for such an application violates that license. And besides,
Hercules, while a very good emulator, doesn't have all of the bells and
whistles that a few others have. Yet. It can be used for teaching, and
demonstration purposes, but that's about it. When you use it, you are in
fact learning something about the Mainframe world.

Actually, the QPL does not prohibit using Hercules in a production
environment. As an Open Source Definition-compliant license, it does not say
anything at all about what use the licensed program may be put to.

As to its suitability for use in a production environment, I'm of two minds
about the subject. My goal, and that of the other developers (at least I
think I can speak for them about this), is to build a production-quality
emulator that need not apologize in any way for its reliability or
accuracy. However, one thing that Hercules will never be able to provide (at
least, not in any future that I can foresee) is the level of system support
that a vendor with funds to pay a support staff can. I firmly believe that
the benefits of an open source development model can offset that, but I
can't honestly recommend that Hercules be used in a production environment
unless the person making that call understands all of the ramifications of
the different kinds of support, and goes in with his eyes open.

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[S. Vetter]

I thought Roger was against it being used in a production environment?

Scott

-----

Post by Jay Maynard

Post by Gregg C Levine
Have you read the license yet? I did. On all separate occasions. The
license strictly forbids the use of Hercules beyond the activities that
we are using it for. Jay Maynard, and Roger Bowler, feel that the use of
Hercules for such an application violates that license. And besides,
Hercules, while a very good emulator, doesn't have all of the bells and
whistles that a few others have. Yet. It can be used for teaching, and
demonstration purposes, but that's about it. When you use it, you are in
fact learning something about the Mainframe world.

Actually, the QPL does not prohibit using Hercules in a production
environment. As an Open Source Definition-compliant license, it does not say
anything at all about what use the licensed program may be put to.
As to its suitability for use in a production environment, I'm of two minds
about the subject. My goal, and that of the other developers (at least I
think I can speak for them about this), is to build a production-quality
emulator that need not apologize in any way for its reliability or
accuracy. However, one thing that Hercules will never be able to provide (at
least, not in any future that I can foresee) is the level of system support
that a vendor with funds to pay a support staff can. I firmly believe that
the benefits of an open source development model can offset that, but I
can't honestly recommend that Hercules be used in a production environment
unless the person making that call understands all of the ramifications of
the different kinds of support, and goes in with his eyes open.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[s***@public.gmane.org]

Post by Jay Maynard
As to its suitability for use in a production environment, I'm of two minds
about the subject. My goal, and that of the other developers (at least I
think I can speak for them about this), is to build a production-quality
emulator that need not apologize in any way for its reliability or
accuracy. However, one thing that Hercules will never be able to provide (at
least, not in any future that I can foresee) is the level of system support
that a vendor with funds to pay a support staff can. I firmly believe that
the benefits of an open source development model can offset that, but I
can't honestly recommend that Hercules be used in a production environment
unless the person making that call understands all of the ramifications of
the different kinds of support, and goes in with his eyes open.

To my mind, much depends on your definition of production. To some,
compiling and testing programs is production, and for that I think it's
entirely suitable, subject to your specific throughput requirements. You
would need to keep in mind the actual differences between Hercules and
"real" S/390 and zSeries computers. I suspect that some of the sorts of
things that arise when some kinds of code is written and tested on a UP
machine and then run on an MP might arise.

For HA 24x7 online processing, I'd look for the real thing.
--
Cheers
John.

Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[Dan]

Post by Gregg C Levine
Hello from Gregg C Levine
Have you read the license yet? I did. On all separate occasions. The
license strictly forbids the use of Hercules beyond the activities that
we are using it for. Jay Maynard, and Roger Bowler, feel that the use of
Hercules for such an application violates that license.

Okay, hold everything...

This is a direct quote from the Hercules FAQ:

"Hercules is a copyright work which has been made generally
available, subject to the terms of the Q Public License. In essence
this allows free use and distribution of the program for personal and
commercial use."

There is nothing in the QPL that specifies what kind of work you can
do with the software (i.e. production vs. testing and demonstration).
The above statement by Jay Maynard leads me to believe that
commercial use is okay.

What am I missing here?

--Dan


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[Gregg C Levine]

Hello from Gregg C Levine

Nothing at all. It's just that under the terms that were explained to
me, when I started using Hercules, that's what was emphasized. Look at
it this way. Peter Ward's product, which may be a good emulator, but I
have my doubts, was built for the sole purpose of running the myriad of
operating systems that the community considers to be important. Some of
them, even for production work. The license may have been changed, but
the applications behind Hercules were not. Now the license doesn't say
anything about it.
But Scott mentioned that fact. And I am going to abide by it.

Does there exist a method for Hercules to respond to events the same way
as a real Z-box? Or any of the other systems that we are familiar with?
I think not. It's one of the many areas, that I am interested in
pursuing. I actually want to run IBM mainframe applications for the sole
purpose of teaching a community how to do so. That community, is the
group that I am referring to. Unless Jay Maynard, and Roger Bowler allow
me the privilege of using Hercules in a production environment, that is
for the group's benefit, which happens to be my client's, ah, members.
Which is why Scott raised that objection. Did I answer your questions?
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon-XfrvlLN1Pqtfpb/***@public.gmane.org
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 1:50 PM
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: Hercules and a group situation

Post by Gregg C Levine
Hello from Gregg C Levine
Have you read the license yet? I did. On all separate occasions. The
license strictly forbids the use of Hercules beyond the activities

that

Post by Gregg C Levine
we are using it for. Jay Maynard, and Roger Bowler, feel that the

use of

Post by Gregg C Levine
Hercules for such an application violates that license.

Okay, hold everything...
"Hercules is a copyright work which has been made generally
available, subject to the terms of the Q Public License. In essence
this allows free use and distribution of the program for personal and
commercial use."
There is nothing in the QPL that specifies what kind of work you can
do with the software (i.e. production vs. testing and demonstration).
The above statement by Jay Maynard leads me to believe that
commercial use is okay.
What am I missing here?
--Dan
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[s***@public.gmane.org]

Post by Gregg C Levine
Hello from Gregg C Levine
Nothing at all. It's just that under the terms that were explained to
me, when I started using Hercules, that's what was emphasized. Look at
it this way. Peter Ward's product, which may be a good emulator, but I

The only rules that matter are those in the relevant software licences.
For Hercules, that's the QPL. Read it and do with the software what the
QPL says you can.


As for software you want ro run under Hercules, read the licences that
apply to that. For Linux, there's no problem. For MVS 3.8 there's no
problem. For zOS there may be.

Post by Gregg C Levine
have my doubts, was built for the sole purpose of running the myriad of
operating systems that the community considers to be important. Some of
them, even for production work. The license may have been changed, but
the applications behind Hercules were not. Now the license doesn't say
anything about it.
But Scott mentioned that fact. And I am going to abide by it.
Does there exist a method for Hercules to respond to events the same way
as a real Z-box? Or any of the other systems that we are familiar with?

Hercules is not a real Z-box and it's not going to behave the same as
any of them in all circumstances. Neither is any model of Z-box going
the behave the same as any other model of Z-box in all circumstances.
Howw precisely would you expect Hercules on a dual Athlon to emulate a
16-processor Z-box? There's no way it's going to emulate the timing
problems you could have.

However, the actual differences may not matter to you.
--
Cheers
John.

Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[Peter D. Ward]

Post by Gregg C Levine
Peter Ward's product, which may be a good emulator, but I
have my doubts, was built for the sole purpose of running the myriad of
operating systems that the community considers to be important. Some of
them, even for production work.

Greg, I don't know what underlies your doubts, expressed above, but I'd like
to hear them in order to better understand if they can be addressed. Thanks.

PDW


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[Gregg C Levine]

Hello again from Gregg C Levine
My doubts? Simply that I have not had the chance to actually see a box
that is running your product in operation. Those are my only doubts. I
don't have any others regarding yourself.

-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon-XfrvlLN1Pqtfpb/***@public.gmane.org
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: Hercules and a group situation

Post by Gregg C Levine
Peter Ward's product, which may be a good emulator, but I
have my doubts, was built for the sole purpose of running the myriad of
operating systems that the community considers to be important. Some of
them, even for production work.

Greg, I don't know what underlies your doubts, expressed above, but I'd like
to hear them in order to better understand if they can be addressed.

Thanks.

PDW

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[Richard Higson]

Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 18:49:48 -0000
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: Hercules and a group situation
There is nothing in the QPL that specifies what kind of work you can
do with the software (i.e. production vs. testing and demonstration).
The above statement by Jay Maynard leads me to believe that
commercial use is okay.
What am I missing here?
--Dan

just some history, that's all.

Hercules is QPL.
Hercules has not always been QPL.
When it was first released by Roger Bowler it went by it's own License.
I've put a copy of the 1.59 License up at
http://opa.gt.owl.de/~higson/herclic.htm
for your reference (I just happened to have herc-1.59 on an older box I've
just reanimated).

Roger has since put Hercules into QPL, after a LOT of pressure (not all
of it nice & polite) to make it "Open Source or GPL".

One of the reasons for going QPL was that the windows port based on CYGWIN
would not be possible based on the old Hercules License.

Jay (for one, there are others) might refer to the GPL as the GPV,
implying that he regards it as the GNU Public Virus.
( Jay and I don't argue about this, as we're both right, depending who you listen to.)

Roger (and others) think that there should be a way to renumerate developers of Open
Source software, so that they can _AFFORD_ to produce quality work like
this and still pay the rent.

So, to cut a long story short, yes, you may use the work that the
developers have put into this piece of software to make money.
And that leaves you in the position where, yes, you are making money off
the effort that others have spent for you.
You also have the choice of giving back to the community.
Some choose not to give back. Their reputation is/will reflect that.
Some choose to build on our work _AND_ make their products available to
the "Hobby Community".

Bear in mind that there are a LOT of emotions around this topic, and
it's very easy to get into a flamewar. I hope I trod on no toes.

I am not a laywer, I work for a living.
Richard

[Gregg C Levine]

Hello from Gregg C Levine
And that's the license that I was thinking of. Richard, others, when I
discovered Hercules, the license that I agreed to, (This was on the 1.6
series.), that's exactly what it meant, and that's what I agreed to.
Since the discussions regarding the current license, swirled around me,
without comment, by me, the subject of its meaning, and content is one
that that I will also agree to. We've heard from Jay on this issue, now
I'd like to hear from Roger Bowler, on it. And Richard? I won't heap
crud on you, on this one, you don't deserve my complaining for being
right.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon-XfrvlLN1Pqtfpb/***@public.gmane.org
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

-----Original Message-----

Of

Richard Higson
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: Hercules and a group situation

Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 18:49:48 -0000
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: Hercules and a group situation
There is nothing in the QPL that specifies what kind of work you can
do with the software (i.e. production vs. testing and

demonstration).

The above statement by Jay Maynard leads me to believe that
commercial use is okay.
What am I missing here?
--Dan

just some history, that's all.
Hercules is QPL.
Hercules has not always been QPL.
When it was first released by Roger Bowler it went by it's own

License.

I've put a copy of the 1.59 License up at
http://opa.gt.owl.de/~higson/herclic.htm
for your reference (I just happened to have herc-1.59 on an older box I've
just reanimated).
Roger has since put Hercules into QPL, after a LOT of pressure (not all
of it nice & polite) to make it "Open Source or GPL".
One of the reasons for going QPL was that the windows port based on CYGWIN
would not be possible based on the old Hercules License.
Jay (for one, there are others) might refer to the GPL as the GPV,
implying that he regards it as the GNU Public Virus.
( Jay and I don't argue about this, as we're both right, depending who you listen to.)
Roger (and others) think that there should be a way to renumerate

developers of

Open
Source software, so that they can _AFFORD_ to produce quality work like
this and still pay the rent.
So, to cut a long story short, yes, you may use the work that the
developers have put into this piece of software to make money.
And that leaves you in the position where, yes, you are making money off
the effort that others have spent for you.
You also have the choice of giving back to the community.
Some choose not to give back. Their reputation is/will reflect that.
Some choose to build on our work _AND_ make their products available to
the "Hobby Community".
Bear in mind that there are a LOT of emotions around this topic, and
it's very easy to get into a flamewar. I hope I trod on no toes.
I am not a laywer, I work for a living.
Richard
--
++ Remember, Amateurs helped build Noah's Arc,
++ but the Titanic was build by professionals.

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[s***@public.gmane.org]

Post by Richard Higson
So, to cut a long story short, yes, you may use the work that the
developers have put into this piece of software to make money.
And that leaves you in the position where, yes, you are making money off
the effort that others have spent for you.

As does everyone who earns in income in any manner from Linux.

Post by Richard Higson
You also have the choice of giving back to the community.
Some choose not to give back. Their reputation is/will reflect that.

You need to be careful about assuming someone's not giving back because
you can't see what they're doing. My Linux computers run Red Hat Linux
(except for those running Debian), and have Gnome, OpenOffice, KDE,
Mozilla, Apache, Bind, Sendmail and a host of other software installed
or readily available to be installed.


Nobody can possibly contribute to all those. Nor is cutting code the
only way to contribute. Reporting bugs and helping less-skilled users
are both less glamorous ways of adding to the effort. (Much to my
surprise, I'm listed as a contributor to one project because I reported
one bug a couple of years ago).

The FSF has listed some ways for folk to make a living out of free
(their definition) software. Providing support for software (yours or
someone else's) is one of the suggestions.

I've not read the QPL recently, but the point that Richard Stallman sees
as of the greatest value in the GPL is the requirement that, if you
distribute the executable form of a modified GPL product (outside your
organisation) you must also supply, on request, the source code so
others can vet your changes and/or build further on the product.

I don't agree wholeheartedly with RMS, but as a _user_ I see great value
in this. Shrek's animation was done on a brace of PCs running Linux. I
like to speculate on the advances to animation that would be being
achieved now if Dreamworks had released all their software under the
GPL, say at the time of the release of Shrek.

Their competitors couldn't afford to ignore it, and Dreamworks would
still have a significant lead because they already knew the software.

There's no impediment to them charging a small fortune though.
--
Cheers
John.

Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[Dan]

I thought Hercules was using the QPL. I read the QPL yesterday and
didn't catch anything that forbids any particular kind of use. I must
be looking at the wrong license or something. Where should I look?

--Dan

Post by Gregg C Levine
Hello from Gregg C Levine
Have you read the license yet? I did. On all separate occasions. The
license strictly forbids the use of Hercules beyond the activities that
we are using it for. Jay Maynard, and Roger Bowler, feel that the use of
Hercules for such an application violates that license. And besides,
Hercules, while a very good emulator, doesn't have all of the bells and
whistles that a few others have. Yet. It can be used for teaching, and
demonstration purposes, but that's about it. When you use it, you are in
fact learning something about the Mainframe world.

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Get 128 Bit SSL Encryption!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/CBxunD/vN2EAA/xGHJAA/W4wwlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->