[tw] Query: Markup Parsers

[@TiddlyTweeter]

This is an initial query springing from the thread started by Jan on
"Fountain" markup here--but its more general than that:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/9Lf0YHfMUZk

My question may seem dumb since I don't get the underpinnings.

My FIRST question is this: Is it possible to make a new parser for mark-up
without having to use JavaScript? Just a macro using Regular Expressions?

Any orientation you can give could help.
Best wishes
Josiah

[PMario]

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
My FIRST question is this: Is it possible to make a new parser for mark-up
without having to use JavaScript?

NO. ... There's way to much logic involved. The tiddlywiki syntax parser
consists of 46 different js modules, which converts text into an internal
structure, that is used to render the html output.

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Just a macro using Regular Expressions?

The TW parser uses regular expressions to identify the different markup
elements. ... So if someone wants to implement a new parser, there are a
lot of examples in the core, which can be used to create a new one. ...

-m

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Tx PMario

Would I have to study the JavaScript code to understand what those parsers
do? I'm very hazy about what the final HTML is.

Grasping that is probably beyond me. However ...

SECOND QUESTION: *Are parsers bound (tied) to content types? Meaning, if we
created a new parser would it need a new "content type"?*

Best wishes
Josiah

Post by PMario

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
My FIRST question is this: Is it possible to make a new parser for
mark-up without having to use JavaScript?

NO. ... There's way to much logic involved. The tiddlywiki syntax parser
consists of 46 different js modules, which converts text into an internal
structure, that is used to render the html output.

[TonyM]

Just a question. Why build a parser when there are ways to parse the content in a tiddlywiki already. I would have thought What is it you want to achieve is best voiced first.

Ok, maybe I don't get it but I expect the same could be said for theatrical script writing as well unless it is critical to import a different markup in which case you could work on the import and export process instead.

Food for thought?

Otherwise clueless
Tony

[@TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM

The aim is implicitly voiced in the other thread this emerged from ...
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/9Lf0YHfMUZk ... but it
needs work to get it optimised for TW, IMO.

Looking at Fountain <https://fountain.io/syntax>, that thread deals with
its markup system for screenplays--I think it could be simplified for TW a
lot.

The UNDERLYING ISSUE is whether a "deep level" Javascript parser *(and
likely a new "content type") *is needed OR whether you can get away with a
more surface level set of regular expressions. The RegEx I can sorta cope
with. The Javascript I can't.

The BASIC markup I'm thinking is only this ...

:x

Each LINE started by a colon and a letter code is parsed and wrapped in
different CSS classes.

Right now I'm trying to establish the tech needs for this.

PMario opined it wasn't possible without JavaScript coding.

Best wishes
Josiah

Post by TonyM
Just a question. Why build a parser when there are ways to parse the
content in a tiddlywiki already. I would have thought What is it you want
to achieve is best voiced first.
Ok, maybe I don't get it but I expect the same could be said for
theatrical script writing as well unless it is critical to import a
different markup in which case you could work on the import and export
process instead.
Food for thought?
Otherwise clueless
Tony

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Working out what you want in a parser in terms of inputs and outputs is a
good idea.

I'm wondering what the point of this exercise would be? How would you use
the outputs? My experience with all things HTML is that it doesn't print
out reliably. So you probably couldn't depend on it to produce physical
manuscripts. So, unless you could convince directors/actors/reviewers to
read scripts on their tablets (hmm, maybe they already do this?) what
would be the benefit of using TW?

Have fun,
Mark

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
TonyM
The aim is implicitly voiced in the other thread this emerged from ...
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/9Lf0YHfMUZk ... but it
needs work to get it optimised for TW, IMO.
Looking at Fountain <https://fountain.io/syntax>, that thread deals with
its markup system for screenplays--I think it could be simplified for TW a
lot.
The UNDERLYING ISSUE is whether a "deep level" Javascript parser *(and
likely a new "content type") *is needed OR whether you can get away with
a more surface level set of regular expressions. The RegEx I can sorta cope
with. The Javascript I can't.
The BASIC markup I'm thinking is only this ...
:x
Each LINE started by a colon and a letter code is parsed and wrapped in
different CSS classes.
Right now I'm trying to establish the tech needs for this.
PMario opined it wasn't possible without JavaScript coding.
Best wishes
Josiah

Post by TonyM
Just a question. Why build a parser when there are ways to parse the
content in a tiddlywiki already. I would have thought What is it you want
to achieve is best voiced first.
Ok, maybe I don't get it but I expect the same could be said for
theatrical script writing as well unless it is critical to import a
different markup in which case you could work on the import and export
process instead.
Food for thought?
Otherwise clueless
Tony

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mark S.

Thanks for GOOD questions.

For movie scripts outputs MUST follow the format to have any chance. The
spec is precise. This is why you must have access to a physical print-out
to mail that follows the convention, NOT a GUESS. OR an exactly laid out
PDF could do.

I think TW can do that natively. But it needs thought yet.

Josiah

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Working out what you want in a parser in terms of inputs and outputs is a
good idea.
I'm wondering what the point of this exercise would be? How would you use
the outputs? My experience with all things HTML is that it doesn't print
out reliably. So you probably couldn't depend on it to produce physical
manuscripts. So, unless you could convince directors/actors/reviewers to
read scripts on their tablets (hmm, maybe they already do this?) what
would be the benefit of using TW?
Have fun,
Mark

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
TonyM
The aim is implicitly voiced in the other thread this emerged from ...
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/9Lf0YHfMUZk ... but
it needs work to get it optimised for TW, IMO.
Looking at Fountain <https://fountain.io/syntax>, that thread deals with
its markup system for screenplays--I think it could be simplified for TW a
lot.
The UNDERLYING ISSUE is whether a "deep level" Javascript parser *(and
likely a new "content type") *is needed OR whether you can get away with
a more surface level set of regular expressions. The RegEx I can sorta cope
with. The Javascript I can't.
The BASIC markup I'm thinking is only this ...
:x
Each LINE started by a colon and a letter code is parsed and wrapped in
different CSS classes.
Right now I'm trying to establish the tech needs for this.
PMario opined it wasn't possible without JavaScript coding.
Best wishes
Josiah

Post by TonyM
Just a question. Why build a parser when there are ways to parse the
content in a tiddlywiki already. I would have thought What is it you want
to achieve is best voiced first.
Ok, maybe I don't get it but I expect the same could be said for
theatrical script writing as well unless it is critical to import a
different markup in which case you could work on the import and export
process instead.
Food for thought?
Otherwise clueless
Tony

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

I'm skeptical about the hard-copy or PDF virtual hard-copy.

You could make a couple pages using conventional CSS/TW markup and then see
if it prints out like you want. I think you might find that getting page
breaks to work reasonably is challenging.

Good luck,
Mark

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao Mark S.
Thanks for GOOD questions.
For movie scripts outputs MUST follow the format to have any chance. The
spec is precise. This is why you must have access to a physical print-out
to mail that follows the convention, NOT a GUESS. OR an exactly laid out
PDF could do.
I think TW can do that natively. But it needs thought yet.
Josiah

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Working out what you want in a parser in terms of inputs and outputs is a
good idea.
I'm wondering what the point of this exercise would be? How would you use
the outputs? My experience with all things HTML is that it doesn't print
out reliably. So you probably couldn't depend on it to produce physical
manuscripts. So, unless you could convince directors/actors/reviewers to
read scripts on their tablets (hmm, maybe they already do this?) what
would be the benefit of using TW?
Have fun,
Mark

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
TonyM
The aim is implicitly voiced in the other thread this emerged from ...
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/9Lf0YHfMUZk ... but
it needs work to get it optimised for TW, IMO.
Looking at Fountain <https://fountain.io/syntax>, that thread deals
with its markup system for screenplays--I think it could be simplified for
TW a lot.
The UNDERLYING ISSUE is whether a "deep level" Javascript parser *(and
likely a new "content type") *is needed OR whether you can get away
with a more surface level set of regular expressions. The RegEx I can sorta
cope with. The Javascript I can't.
The BASIC markup I'm thinking is only this ...
:x
Each LINE started by a colon and a letter code is parsed and wrapped in
different CSS classes.
Right now I'm trying to establish the tech needs for this.
PMario opined it wasn't possible without JavaScript coding.
Best wishes
Josiah

Post by TonyM
Just a question. Why build a parser when there are ways to parse the
content in a tiddlywiki already. I would have thought What is it you want
to achieve is best voiced first.
Ok, maybe I don't get it but I expect the same could be said for
theatrical script writing as well unless it is critical to import a
different markup in which case you could work on the import and export
process instead.
Food for thought?
Otherwise clueless
Tony

[@TiddlyTweeter]

GREAT QUESTIONS

If it can't do that then there is NO point starting.

I'm gonna look at that first, now.

tx, J.

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
I'm skeptical about the hard-copy or PDF virtual hard-copy.
You could make a couple pages using conventional CSS/TW markup and then
see if it prints out like you want. I think you might find that getting
page breaks to work reasonably is challenging.
Good luck,
Mark

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao Mark S.
Thanks for GOOD questions.
For movie scripts outputs MUST follow the format to have any chance. The
spec is precise. This is why you must have access to a physical print-out
to mail that follows the convention, NOT a GUESS. OR an exactly laid out
PDF could do.
I think TW can do that natively. But it needs thought yet.
Josiah

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Working out what you want in a parser in terms of inputs and outputs is
a good idea.
I'm wondering what the point of this exercise would be? How would you
use the outputs? My experience with all things HTML is that it doesn't
print out reliably. So you probably couldn't depend on it to produce
physical manuscripts. So, unless you could convince
directors/actors/reviewers to read scripts on their tablets (hmm, maybe
they already do this?) what would be the benefit of using TW?
Have fun,
Mark

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
TonyM
The aim is implicitly voiced in the other thread this emerged from ...
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/9Lf0YHfMUZk ... but
it needs work to get it optimised for TW, IMO.
Looking at Fountain <https://fountain.io/syntax>, that thread deals
with its markup system for screenplays--I think it could be simplified for
TW a lot.
The UNDERLYING ISSUE is whether a "deep level" Javascript parser *(and
likely a new "content type") *is needed OR whether you can get away
with a more surface level set of regular expressions. The RegEx I can sorta
cope with. The Javascript I can't.
The BASIC markup I'm thinking is only this ...
:x
Each LINE started by a colon and a letter code is parsed and wrapped in
different CSS classes.
Right now I'm trying to establish the tech needs for this.
PMario opined it wasn't possible without JavaScript coding.
Best wishes
Josiah

Post by TonyM
Just a question. Why build a parser when there are ways to parse the
content in a tiddlywiki already. I would have thought What is it you want
to achieve is best voiced first.
Ok, maybe I don't get it but I expect the same could be said for
theatrical script writing as well unless it is critical to import a
different markup in which case you could work on the import and export
process instead.
Food for thought?
Otherwise clueless
Tony

[PMario]

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Looking at Fountain <https://fountain.io/syntax>, that thread deals with
its markup system for screenplays--I think it could be simplified for TW a
lot.

Not really. TW-markup is different to fountain markup. Mixing things, IMO
would be confusing. ... A new parser would probably be easier in the long
run.

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
The UNDERLYING ISSUE is whether a "deep level" Javascript parser *(and
likely a new "content type")*

As above. imo easier to deal with in the long run.

PMario opined it wasn't possible without JavaScript coding.
I didn't say it's not possible. ... But I don't see it. ... For me a new
parser would be much simpler to understand and implement. ... There are js
libraries already: https://github.com/mattdaly/Fountain.js It should be
simple to implement it, similar to the markdown stuff. ... BUT that's not
the whole truth.

The magic, that's really needed, is a "sketchbook", where you write down
your ideas about scenes, characters, .... and then combine the stuff to a
story. ... The text parsers are just a means to an end.

have fun!
mario

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Post by PMario
The magic, that's really needed, is a "sketchbook", where you write down
your ideas about scenes, characters, .... and then combine the stuff to a
story. ... The text parsers are just a means to an end.

That's easy for me. I make sure I make films every few years.

https://vimeo.com/57934864

J, x

[Jan]

Hi Josiah, Hi Mario.
I also came to the conclusion that it is not necessary have a
compatibility with the fountain-markup.
For me the most important thing is that ideas developped in TW can grow
to a screenplay without having to migrate the texts to another program.
In some aspects the fountain syntax won't make sense at all in TW. For
Example, the title of the scene could simply be the title of the Tiddler
(or an alias).
One problem I see in the normal TW-parsing that the elements have either
to be opened and closed (like italic or bold) or that they have to be
preceded by a blank line (like headings and lists).
This is why I put up the question whether it would be possible to modify
the parsing of lists to work without a preceding blank line. I could not
find how this could be done in
$:/core/modules/parsers/wikiparser/rules/list.js
<http://tiddlywiki.com/#%24%3A%2Fcore%2Fmodules%2Fparsers%2Fwikiparser%2Frules%2Flist.js>
@Mario: Do you think it would be possible to achieve this?
If this was possible I would create stylesheets to use the existing
elements (like lists) to achieve the screenplay-layout.

Yours Jan

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Looking at Fountain <https://fountain.io/syntax>, that thread
deals with its markup system for screenplays--I think it could be
simplified for TW a lot.
Not really. TW-markup is different to fountain markup. Mixing things,
IMO would be confusing. ... A new parser would probably be easier in
the long run.
The UNDERLYING ISSUE is whether a "deep level" Javascript parser
/(and likely a new "content type")/
As above. imo easier to deal with in the long run.
PMario opined it wasn't possible without JavaScript coding.
I didn't say it's not possible. ... But I don't see it. ... For me a
new parser would be much simpler to understand and implement. ...
https://github.com/mattdaly/Fountain.js It should be simple to
implement it, similar to the markdown stuff. ... BUT that's not the
whole truth.
The magic, that's really needed, is a "sketchbook", where you write
down your ideas about scenes, characters, .... and then combine the
stuff to a story. ... The text parsers are just a means to an end.
have fun!
mario
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[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi all

Interesting discussion, really! Not that I would intend to write a play or a film, but I have thoughts about other text production projects 
 I just lack time as always :–D

Page breaks are controllable in theory using CSS: https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/pr_print_pageba.asp – hope this helps for your tests Josiah!

One more thought about where TW might be a superior authoring tool: I imagine texts with transclusions used like variables. You define a character/place in a tiddler and maybe some fields. Instead of the name of the role, e.g. Andrew, you write a transclusion.

{{A}}: Let’s go home!

If you later on decide to call that role Andy you just change the text of one single tiddler and you are done. I hope you get the idea.

Have fun!
Thomas

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Post by Thomas Elmiger
https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/pr_print_pageba.asp – hope this helps
for your tests Josiah!

Yes, but how would you use this in practice? You'd have to do a preview
print. Then, based on the print, insert MANUALLY any pagebreaks. Then
repeat to make sure things still paginate. Then repeat again. Imagine doing
that with a 50 page document, and then having to repeat every time there
was a change to the script.

Mark

[c***@outlook.com]

Hi Mark

Yes, agreed, but only where you want to print a set of tiddlers -- like the
story river. If, on the other hand, you use a macro/tiddler to "stream"
the participating tiddlers into one long chunk (the "output" tiddler), you
could then apply the css to the elements in the output.

I haven't tried it myself, but it principle it should work, I think.

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki

Post by Thomas Elmiger
https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/pr_print_pageba.asp – hope this helps
for your tests Josiah!

Yes, but how would you use this in practice? You'd have to do a preview
print. Then, based on the print, insert MANUALLY any pagebreaks. Then
repeat to make sure things still paginate. Then repeat again. Imagine doing
that with a 50 page document, and then having to repeat every time there
was a change to the script.
Mark

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Let's see if Mark S. is the Last Notator of the Lost Side or not.

J.

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki

Post by Thomas Elmiger
https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/pr_print_pageba.asp – hope this helps
for your tests Josiah!

Yes, but how would you use this in practice? You'd have to do a preview
print. Then, based on the print, insert MANUALLY any pagebreaks. Then
repeat to make sure things still paginate. Then repeat again. Imagine doing
that with a 50 page document, and then having to repeat every time there
was a change to the script.
Mark

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi Mark

I would use this to mark the end of parts (chapters, scenes) where you know
you want a page break after. The end of a chapter is the end of a chapter
and stays the end of the chapter no matter how many times you rewrite the
chapter.

On the other hand you can set the value to "avoid" after the title and e.g.
introduction of a chapter, where you don't want a page break.

This should reduce the need for manual adjustments significantly.

-t


'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <***@googlegroups.com> schrieb am Do. 31.
Aug. 2017 um 21:44:

Yes, but how would you use this in practice? You'd have to do a preview

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
print. Then, based on the print, insert MANUALLY any pagebreaks. Then
repeat to make sure things still paginate. Then repeat again. Imagine doing
that with a 50 page document, and then having to repeat every time there
was a change to the script.

--
--

Thomas Elmiger
LorenwÀldlistrasse 34
8630 RÃŒti ZH

[@TiddlyTweeter]

In Fountain they do ===. I think its not right. Rather the lines were right
already. ITS THE CSS MATH'S honey.

Post by c***@outlook.com
Hi Mark
I would use this to mark the end of parts (chapters, scenes) where you
know you want a page break after. The end of a chapter is the end of a
chapter and stays the end of the chapter no matter how many times you
rewrite the chapter.
On the other hand you can set the value to "avoid" after the title and
e.g. introduction of a chapter, where you don't want a page break.
This should reduce the need for manual adjustments significantly.
-t
Yes, but how would you use this in practice? You'd have to do a preview

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
print. Then, based on the print, insert MANUALLY any pagebreaks. Then
repeat to make sure things still paginate. Then repeat again. Imagine doing
that with a 50 page document, and then having to repeat every time there
was a change to the script.

--
--
Thomas Elmiger
LorenwÀldlistrasse 34
8630 RÃŒti ZH

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Now that I'm trying it on some material I wrote, it doesn't look quite as
hopeless. It might be that the output of TW is more regular than that of
other web-pages. I've had various pages that would split text mid-line (I
mean literally right down the horizontal middle of the line).

Mark

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
In Fountain they do ===. I think its not right. Rather the lines were
right already. ITS THE CSS MATH'S honey.

Post by c***@outlook.com
Hi Mark
I would use this to mark the end of parts (chapters, scenes) where you
know you want a page break after. The end of a chapter is the end of a
chapter and stays the end of the chapter no matter how many times you
rewrite the chapter.
On the other hand you can set the value to "avoid" after the title and
e.g. introduction of a chapter, where you don't want a page break.
This should reduce the need for manual adjustments significantly.
-t
Yes, but how would you use this in practice? You'd have to do a preview

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
print. Then, based on the print, insert MANUALLY any pagebreaks. Then
repeat to make sure things still paginate. Then repeat again. Imagine doing
that with a 50 page document, and then having to repeat every time there
was a change to the script.

--
--
Thomas Elmiger
LorenwÀldlistrasse 34
8630 RÃŒti ZH

[Jan]

Hi Thomas,
transcluding rolenames is exactly what my plugin in
http://storywriting.tiddlyspot.com/ does, together with Alain Dutechs
textcompletition to complete the rolnames and insert the transclusions
automatically. I think this helps you to write down your ideas faster,
because you do not have to think about the name from the beinning on.

Sorry to come back to my question on parsing list-elements in TW
(because the discussion switched to pagebreaks:)

The problem I see in the normal TW-parsing that the elements have either
to be opened and closed (like italic or bold) or that they have to be
preceded by a blank line (like headings and lists).
This is why I put up the question whether it would be possible to modify
the parsing of lists to work without a preceding blank line. I could not
find how this could be done in
$:/core/modules/parsers/wikiparser/rules/list.js
<http://tiddlywiki.com/#%24%3A%2Fcore%2Fmodules%2Fparsers%2Fwikiparser%2Frules%2Flist.js>
Do you think it would be possible to achieve this?

Jan

Post by Thomas Elmiger
Hi all
Interesting discussion, really! Not that I would intend to write a play or a film, but I have thoughts about other text production projects 
 I just lack time as always :–D
Page breaks are controllable in theory using CSS: https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/pr_print_pageba.asp – hope this helps for your tests Josiah!
One more thought about where TW might be a superior authoring tool: I imagine texts with transclusions used like variables. You define a character/place in a tiddler and maybe some fields. Instead of the name of the role, e.g. Andrew, you write a transclusion.
{{A}}: Let’s go home!
If you later on decide to call that role Andy you just change the text of one single tiddler and you are done. I hope you get the idea.
Have fun!
Thomas

[PMario]

Post by TonyM
Just a question. Why build a parser when there are ways to parse the
content in a tiddlywiki already.

If you are used to a different markup, it's hard to learn tw syntax .....
and the other way around.

And if you have existing tools, that need the "other markup", because they
don't know TW markup.

-m

[PMario]

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Would I have to study the JavaScript code to understand what those parsers
do?

yes.
and you can have a look at different hangouts, where Jeremy discusses
parsers. .. So you may get some hints too. Open this link
<https://web.archive.org/web/20161205105740/http://hangouts.tiddlyspace.com/#%5B%5BAll%20Notes%5D%5D>
and search for "parser"

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
I'm very hazy about what the final HTML is.

The final html is just HTML.... So eg: ! heading ... is translated to ...
<h1>heading</h1>

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
SECOND QUESTION: *Are parsers bound (tied) to content types? Meaning, if
we created a new parser would it need a new "content type"?*

Yes. ... If there is no "type" field, TiddlyWiki assumes
"text/vnd.tiddlywiki" as the default type. Other types use other parser.
eg: "text/x-markdown", which is used by the markdown plugin.

have fun!
mario

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Josiah

My FIRST question is this: Is it possible to make a new parser for mark-up without having to use JavaScript? Just a macro using Regular Expressions?

As Mario has explained, it’s not currently possible to create a new parse rule without using JavaScript. It is something that I often think about, though: I like the idea of TiddlyWiki users being able to evolve their own unique domain specific markup, precisely for applications like screenwriting.

However, it’s hard to imagine a non-JavaScript approach to parsers that would allow us to replicate the complexity of something like the current table or list parser rules. The underlying rules seem sufficiently complex that some kind of programming language is required to express the logic, and that the language must necessarily be a good deal more complex than regular expressions themselves.

Instead, I’ve wondered whether we might be able to make (some of) the existing parser rules much more configurable. For example, right now there are 6 separate parser modules for each of bold, italic, strikethrough, subscript, superscript and underscore:

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/tree/master/core/modules/parsers/wikiparser/rules/emphasis <https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/tree/master/core/modules/parsers/wikiparser/rules/emphasis>

But, if you look at the individual JavaScript files, you’ll see that they only vary through a few parameters: the name of the rule, the regular expression to match at the start, and the regular expression to match at the end, and the tag of the HTML element to create.

So, one could imagine refactoring things so that there was a single JS parse rule, and that it was instantiated multiple times with different parameters.

Then, users could evolve their own notation for, say, sotto voce, and then make a new instance of the parse rule with slightly modified parameters.

Best wishes

Jeremy

[Dragon Cotterill]

This takes us into the realm of Yacc (Bison) and Lex for tokenising and
parsing. Just a few Javascript versions and alternatives off hand:
https://www.npmjs.com/package/jscc-parser
http://zaach.github.com/jison/docs/
http://canna71.github.io/Jacob/

I'm sure there must be someway to sort out the tokenising of a standard
Tiddler.

Hmmm, the last time I worked with Yacc/Lex was about 25 years ago. Guess
I'm a little rusty on the subject these days.

[PMario]

Post by Jeremy Ruston
Instead, I’ve wondered whether we might be able to make (some of) the
existing parser rules much more configurable. For example, right now there
are 6 separate parser modules for each of bold, italic, strikethrough,
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/tree/master/core/modules/parsers/wikiparser/rules/emphasis
But, if you look at the individual JavaScript files, you’ll see that they
only vary through a few parameters: the name of the rule, the regular
expression to match at the start, and the regular expression to match at
the end, and the tag of the HTML element to create.

There was a reason, why we splitted the emphasis rule:
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/issues/701

So, one could imagine refactoring things so that there was a single JS

Post by Jeremy Ruston
parse rule, and that it was instantiated multiple times with different
parameters.

That's right, but we can't sacrifice the existing flexibility. ....

-m

[Jeremy Ruston]

Post by PMario
That's right, but we can't sacrifice the existing flexibility. ....

We don’t need to; there would still be six separate filters, just that they were instantiated from the same JS filter with different parameters. It would be akin to refactoring six independent functions to each be an instance of the same base class.

Best wishes

Jeremy.

[Jan]

Dear Jeremy,
I would love to have that feature, this would give us a lot more
flexibility.
For example formatting screenplays it would be great to set the format
just by a mark like : preceding the line ... and it would be even better
to have a fixed sequence of formats following one another
Like: <action> /n <role> <dialogue> /n <role> <dialogue>/n/n<action> etc...

Sorry for asking onnce again:
Is it possible to modify$:/core/modules/parsers/wikiparser/rules/list.js
<http://tiddlywiki.com/#%24%3A%2Fcore%2Fmodules%2Fparsers%2Fwikiparser%2Frules%2Flist.js>
to parse a list without a preceding blank line?

Yours Jan

Post by Jeremy Ruston

Post by PMario
That's right, but we can't sacrifice the existing flexibility. ....

We don’t need to; there would still be six separate filters, just that
they were instantiated from the same JS filter with different
parameters. It would be akin to refactoring six independent functions
to each be an instance of the same base class.
Best wishes
Jeremy.
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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jeremy

Jeremy ... I’ve wondered whether we might be able to make (some of) the

Post by Jeremy Ruston
existing parser rules much more configurable.

That is encouraging. I want to echo Jan's interest ...

Jan: I would love to have that feature, this would give us a lot more

Post by Jeremy Ruston
flexibility.

I think cinema screenplays are a great test case because of their
strictness of form. But ALSO because that though a "Spec." script (the
thing you submit to production companies) is formatted more tightly than a
tight grip, "Shooting / Production" scripts can, in practice, vary
enormously.

The ability to be able to create NEW markup rules quickly to suit specific
film production needs would be a godsend.

---

Thinking about it more... once more easily customisable markup were
possible things like the following could be achieved move easily ...

- Cookery book layouts
- Legal documents
- Poetry collections
- Layout of image galleries

etc ...


Best wishes

Josiah

[Mat]

On the topic of parse rules, Skeeve created the ReplacePragma
<http://tiddlystuff.tiddlyspot.com/#ReplacePragma> which is *very*
interesting but, if I understand the discussion
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/tiddlywiki/replacepragma|sort:relevance/tiddlywiki/52Hwa_oCLRk/gLLzQrmG87oJ>
it spurred, not unproblematic.

<:-)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Mat

Tx! That is seriously interesting.

J, x

Post by Mat
On the topic of parse rules, Skeeve created the ReplacePragma
<http://tiddlystuff.tiddlyspot.com/#ReplacePragma> which is *very*
interesting but, if I understand the discussion
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/tiddlywiki/replacepragma%7Csort:relevance/tiddlywiki/52Hwa_oCLRk/gLLzQrmG87oJ>
it spurred, not unproblematic.

[Jan]

Hi Mat,
thanks for reminding me of the replace pragma. If I use lists and
headings for the screenplay-markup the following lines could prevent
that the entire layout is crashed due to a missing newline.
\replace /\n!/\n\n!/
\replace /\n:/\n\n:/
\replace /\n{{/\n\n:{{/

Next question: How can I apply them automatically to every tiddler
tagged dialogue?

Yours Jan

Post by Mat
On the topic of parse rules, Skeeve created the ReplacePragma
<http://tiddlystuff.tiddlyspot.com/#ReplacePragma> which is /very/
interesting but, if I understand the discussion
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21searchin/tiddlywiki/replacepragma%7Csort:relevance/tiddlywiki/52Hwa_oCLRk/gLLzQrmG87oJ>
it spurred, not unproblematic.
<:-)
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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jan & folk interested in Markup ...

*INTERIM REPORT*

Skeeve's Replace Pragma I have been playing with.

*Its seriously dangerous*, but used carefully you can demonstrate with it
how TW can take raw Regular Expressions and apply them to produce zillions
of different types of layout very easily.

I finish up on these experiments and report back with requests on how to
achieve the same in a SAFER way.

Best wishes
Josiah

[Jan]

Hi Josiah,
Thanks for keeping this problem in mind, in the moment it is the biggest
issue that I have to solve befor issuing a new version of the
screenwriting-plugin.
Skeeve himself says that his pragma could be a deadly sword, but I think
the danger can be handled if it is prevented from beeing applied to
systemTiddlers: after adjusting all problems will disappear.

So let me repeapt task for js-coders that would have to be solved to
bring forward special formats like screenplay and other documents:
It is to find a way to apply replacements with the replacePragma
(http://tiddlystuff.tiddlyspot.com/#ReplacePragma) to Tiddlers based on
a TW-Filter.

Yours Jan

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao Jan & folk interested in Markup ...
*INTERIM REPORT*
Skeeve's Replace Pragma I have been playing with.
_Its seriously dangerous_, but used carefully you can demonstrate with
it how TW can take raw Regular Expressions and apply them to produce
zillions of different types of layout very easily.
I finish up on these experiments and report back with requests on how
to achieve the same in a SAFER way.
Best wishes
Josiah
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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jan

*Is your screenwriting plugin somewhere I can take a look so I can better
understand your approach?*

Regarding parsers for what we need. The more I think about it the clearer
it gets to me that what is needed is *a "Generic" parser *that you can
quickly add codes to. For instance, in what I am currently working on the
markup codes are something like this ...

:s:7 INT. - PARK HUT - NIGHT

:a Baxter enters carrying Perry Mason.

:c BAXTER

:p (coughs)

:d Paul, are you there? Perry had an accident.

To get those lines converted to HTML is quite easy using regular
expressions. But I DON'T think the specific regexes should be individually
"HARD CODED" into Javascript. Rather, we should devise a* Markup that is
extensible* so you could apply the same method for potentially laying out
many types of document. In short, we need *a method by which a user could
easily add new codes*.

I'm also thinking there could easily be LONG-FORM codes that a user could
use till they learned the SHORT-FORM (above) ... For example ...

:scene:7 INT. - PARK HUT - NIGHT

:action Baxter enters carrying Perry Mason.

:character BAXTER

:parenthetical (coughs)

:dialogue Paul, are you there? Perry had an accident.

In addition, add-hoc markup could allow CONVERSION markup to be built --
Like being able to convert back & forth with Fountain markup. And also to
be able to at least part convert plain text screenplays to a TW format.

I'm working on a demo using Skeeve to illustrate those issues. It will take
me a few more days to finish it. I'm hoping, after that, we'll be able to
say *more precisely* what we asking of the JavaScript department.

Just today's thoughts.

Best wishes
Josiah

Post by Jan
Hi Josiah,
Thanks for keeping this problem in mind, in the moment it is the biggest
issue that I have to solve befor issuing a new version of the
screenwriting-plugin.
Skeeve himself says that his pragma could be a deadly sword, but I think
the danger can be handled if it is prevented from beeing applied to
systemTiddlers: after adjusting all problems will disappear.
So let me repeapt task for js-coders that would have to be solved to bring
It is to find a way to apply replacements with the replacePragma (
http://tiddlystuff.tiddlyspot.com/#ReplacePragma) to Tiddlers based on a
TW-Filter.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jan

Regarding safety with Skeeve. And to reduce crashes ...

I now devise & test the regexs using an external program first: RegexBuddy
<https://www.regexbuddy.com/>. Its an inexpensive Windows program that is
extremely good. It accurately emulates all versions of JavaScript.

Best wishes
Josiah

[c***@outlook.com]

Hi Joshua

Let me ask a question (apologies if this is answered somewhere above but
since this thread and its "parent" thread are long, I wanted to ask it and
get a straight answer) ...

What does the text look like that you wish to enter into a tiddler in EDIT
mode?

Second Question...

What does the text look like that TW will render assuming you have your
ideal magical tool?

Please, keep regexes, javascript et al out of this - keep it simple.

Coda

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Coda

Very encouraging to have your interest!!

Good questions.

Give me a couple of days so I don't burden you with a half-baked-ostrich.

Briefly: Input in EDIT is plain text. Output is rendered HTML after
scavenged by Regex. But I need get the examples working better before I
show you. On the RegEx side I know what I'm doing (for a change :).

Very best wishes
Josiah

Post by c***@outlook.com
Hi Joshua
Let me ask a question (apologies if this is answered somewhere above but
since this thread and its "parent" thread are long, I wanted to ask it and
get a straight answer) ...
What does the text look like that you wish to enter into a tiddler in EDIT
mode?
Second Question...
What does the text look like that TW will render assuming you have your
ideal magical tool?
Please, keep regexes, javascript et al out of this - keep it simple.
Coda

[c***@outlook.com]

Well, cool, but I don't need an exhaustive presentation of every possible
combination... Give me some examples, just a few.

I have an idea that something I'm already doing *could* be of benefit to
you. So gimme something to test... okay?

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao Coda
Very encouraging to have your interest!!
Good questions.
Give me a couple of days so I don't burden you with a half-baked-ostrich.
Briefly: Input in EDIT is plain text. Output is rendered HTML after
scavenged by Regex. But I need get the examples working better before I
show you. On the RegEx side I know what I'm doing (for a change :).
Very best wishes
Josiah

Post by c***@outlook.com
Hi Joshua
Let me ask a question (apologies if this is answered somewhere above but
since this thread and its "parent" thread are long, I wanted to ask it and
get a straight answer) ...
What does the text look like that you wish to enter into a tiddler in
EDIT mode?
Second Question...
What does the text look like that TW will render assuming you have your
ideal magical tool?
Please, keep regexes, javascript et al out of this - keep it simple.
Coda

[@TiddlyTweeter]

C, WILL do. J.

Post by c***@outlook.com
Give me some examples, just a few.

[Jan]

Hi Coda.
My concept for formating is quite simple
I built a tool which is transclusions for the rolenames, which are
automatically inserted by Alain Dutech Comptext-Plugin.
For simplicity I would use headings for the action, and the
Tiddler-Ttitle (or an Alias inserted by the Alias-Plugin) for the
scene-title.

Thus:

/Peter and Bob are doing some Action/

PETER
Now I say something.

BOB
And here I answer.

Would look like that in Editmode:

[Title]
!Peter and Bob are doing some Action
{{Peter}}Now I say something.
{{AnotherNamelaterreplacedbyBob}} And here I answer.

The issue of indent rolenames can be handled by using |<dd>-Elements
|which should give a
:Forced negative indent Line.

My use for the replacePragma would the following to avoid breaking the
list by forgetting the preceding blank line:

\replace /\n!/\n\n!/
\replace /\n:/\n\n:/
\replace /\n{{/\n\n:{{/
\replace /}}/}} /

Thanks for your help!
Jan

Post by c***@outlook.com
Hi Joshua
Let me ask a question (apologies if this is answered somewhere above
but since this thread and its "parent" thread are long, I wanted to
ask it and get a straight answer) ...
What does the text look like that you wish to enter into a tiddler in
EDIT mode?
Second Question...
What does the text look like that TW will render assuming you have
your ideal magical tool?
Please, keep regexes, javascript et al out of this - keep it simple.
Coda
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[c***@outlook.com]

Thanks Jan.

It would be better if you present this DEVOID of JARGON. I don't know (nor
do I want to learn) screenwriting. Take what you've written here, and
present it like this:

I want to write something like this in the TW editor:

INPUT TEXT HERE

I want it to render (wikify) to something like this:

OUTPUT TEXT HERE

That way I can see what you are trying to achieve without getting bogged
down in a bunch of terminology which, frankly, might be irrelevant.

Hope that makes sense.

It's possible my idea may work for you guys. It's also possible it won't.
But I need something representative to test. Okay?

Post by Jan
Hi Coda.
My concept for formating is quite simple
I built a tool which is transclusions for the rolenames, which are
automatically inserted by Alain Dutech Comptext-Plugin.
For simplicity I would use headings for the action, and the Tiddler-Ttitle
(or an Alias inserted by the Alias-Plugin) for the scene-title.
*Peter and Bob are doing some Action*
PETER
Now I say something.
BOB
And here I answer.
[Title]
!Peter and Bob are doing some Action
{{Peter}}Now I say something.
{{AnotherNamelaterreplacedbyBob}} And here I answer.
The issue of indent rolenames can be handled by using <dd>-Elements which
should give a
:Forced negative indent Line.
My use for the replacePragma would the following to avoid breaking the
\replace /\n!/\n\n!/
\replace /\n:/\n\n:/
\replace /\n{{/\n\n:{{/
\replace /}}/}} /
Thanks for your help!
Jan
Hi Joshua
Let me ask a question (apologies if this is answered somewhere above but
since this thread and its "parent" thread are long, I wanted to ask it and
get a straight answer) ...
What does the text look like that you wish to enter into a tiddler in EDIT
mode?
Second Question...
What does the text look like that TW will render assuming you have your
ideal magical tool?
Please, keep regexes, javascript et al out of this - keep it simple.
Coda
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[Jan]

Hi Coda,
I hope this is what you want:


InputText:

!Peter and Bob are doing some Action
{{Peter}}Now I say something.
Single Linebreaks are //okay//.
{{AnotherNamelaterreplacedbyBob}} And here I answer.

Here the spaces schould be displayed

OutputText:

/Peter and Bob are doing some Action/

PETER
Now I say something.
Single Linebreaks are /okay/.

BOB
And here I answer.
Here the spaces schould be displayed


I hope this demonstration is okay.
Basically this is what I want.


Thanks for your help
Jan

Thanks Jan.
It would be better if you present this DEVOID of JARGON. I don't know
(nor do I want to learn) screenwriting. Take what you've written
INPUT TEXT HERE
OUTPUT TEXT HERE
That way I can see what you are trying to achieve without getting
bogged down in a bunch of terminology which, frankly, might be irrelevant.
Hope that makes sense.
It's possible my idea may work for you guys. It's also possible it
won't. But I need something representative to test. Okay?
Hi Coda.
My concept for formating is quite simple
I built a tool which is transclusions for the rolenames, which are
automatically inserted by Alain Dutech Comptext-Plugin.
For simplicity I would use headings for the action, and the
Tiddler-Ttitle (or an Alias inserted by the Alias-Plugin) for the
scene-title.
/Peter and Bob are doing some Action/
PETER
Now I say something.
BOB
And here I answer.
!Peter and Bob are doing some Action
{{Peter}}Now I say something.
{{AnotherNamelaterreplacedbyBob}} And here I answer.
The issue of indent rolenames can be handled by using
|<dd>-Elements |which should give a
:Forced negative indent Line.
My use for the replacePragma would the following to avoid breaking
\replace /\n!/\n\n!/
\replace /\n:/\n\n:/
\replace /\n{{/\n\n:{{/
\replace /}}/}} /
Thanks for your help!
Jan

Post by c***@outlook.com
Hi Joshua
Let me ask a question (apologies if this is answered somewhere
above but since this thread and its "parent" thread are long, I
wanted to ask it and get a straight answer) ...
What does the text look like that you wish to enter into a
tiddler in EDIT mode?
Second Question...
What does the text look like that TW will render assuming you
have your ideal magical tool?
Please, keep regexes, javascript et al out of this - keep it simple.
Coda
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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jan

Its interesting looking at that. Its more about intelligent "guessing" than
the markup I'm interested in. I think it could be easy in RegEx. I'm not
convinced you need ANY complex things at all to format that. So long as it
stays so well structured a couple of RegExs could likely do it.

Best wishes
Josiah

Post by Jan
Hi Coda,
!Peter and Bob are doing some Action
{{Peter}}Now I say something.
Single Linebreaks are //okay//.
{{AnotherNamelaterreplacedbyBob}} And here I answer.

Here the spaces schould be displayed

*Peter and Bob are doing some Action*
PETER
Now I say something.
Single Linebreaks are *okay*.
BOB
And here I answer.
Here the spaces schould be displayed
I hope this demonstration is okay.
Basically this is what I want.
Thanks for your help
Jan
Thanks Jan.
It would be better if you present this DEVOID of JARGON. I don't know
(nor do I want to learn) screenwriting. Take what you've written here, and
INPUT TEXT HERE
OUTPUT TEXT HERE
That way I can see what you are trying to achieve without getting bogged
down in a bunch of terminology which, frankly, might be irrelevant.
Hope that makes sense.
It's possible my idea may work for you guys. It's also possible it
won't. But I need something representative to test. Okay?

Hi Coda.
My concept for formating is quite simple
I built a tool which is transclusions for the rolenames, which are
automatically inserted by Alain Dutech Comptext-Plugin.
For simplicity I would use headings for the action, and the
Tiddler-Ttitle (or an Alias inserted by the Alias-Plugin) for the
scene-title.
*Peter and Bob are doing some Action*
PETER
Now I say something.
BOB
And here I answer.
!Peter and Bob are doing some Action
{{Peter}}Now I say something.
{{AnotherNamelaterreplacedbyBob}} And here I answer.
The issue of indent rolenames can be handled by using <dd>-Elements which
should give a
:Forced negative indent Line.
My use for the replacePragma would the following to avoid breaking the
\replace /\n!/\n\n!/
\replace /\n:/\n\n:/
\replace /\n{{/\n\n:{{/
\replace /}}/}} /
Thanks for your help!
Jan
Hi Joshua
Let me ask a question (apologies if this is answered somewhere above but
since this thread and its "parent" thread are long, I wanted to ask it and
get a straight answer) ...
What does the text look like that you wish to enter into a tiddler in
EDIT mode?
Second Question...
What does the text look like that TW will render assuming you have your
ideal magical tool?
Please, keep regexes, javascript et al out of this - keep it simple.
Coda
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[c***@outlook.com]

Thanks Jan. That's very helpful.

Okay, next question...

In principle, are you happy with using references to TW macros in the input
text? For example:

<<xp>>

Which would generate the following in the output (i.e. when viewed in TW)

PETER

NOTE: I said "in principle" and "using references". I'm not proposing
that have to *type* them like that in the editor. Also, don't get hung up
on my choice of macro name (<<xp>>) it could be <<anything>> - it's not
important right now.

One step at a time... :)

Post by Jan
Hi Coda,
!Peter and Bob are doing some Action
{{Peter}}Now I say something.
Single Linebreaks are //okay//.
{{AnotherNamelaterreplacedbyBob}} And here I answer.

Here the spaces schould be displayed

*Peter and Bob are doing some Action*
PETER
Now I say something.
Single Linebreaks are *okay*.
BOB
And here I answer.
Here the spaces schould be displayed
I hope this demonstration is okay.
Basically this is what I want.
Thanks for your help
Jan
Thanks Jan.
It would be better if you present this DEVOID of JARGON. I don't know
(nor do I want to learn) screenwriting. Take what you've written here, and
INPUT TEXT HERE
OUTPUT TEXT HERE
That way I can see what you are trying to achieve without getting bogged
down in a bunch of terminology which, frankly, might be irrelevant.
Hope that makes sense.
It's possible my idea may work for you guys. It's also possible it
won't. But I need something representative to test. Okay?

Hi Coda.
My concept for formating is quite simple
I built a tool which is transclusions for the rolenames, which are
automatically inserted by Alain Dutech Comptext-Plugin.
For simplicity I would use headings for the action, and the
Tiddler-Ttitle (or an Alias inserted by the Alias-Plugin) for the
scene-title.
*Peter and Bob are doing some Action*
PETER
Now I say something.
BOB
And here I answer.
!Peter and Bob are doing some Action
{{Peter}}Now I say something.
{{AnotherNamelaterreplacedbyBob}} And here I answer.
The issue of indent rolenames can be handled by using <dd>-Elements which
should give a
:Forced negative indent Line.
My use for the replacePragma would the following to avoid breaking the
\replace /\n!/\n\n!/
\replace /\n:/\n\n:/
\replace /\n{{/\n\n:{{/
\replace /}}/}} /
Thanks for your help!
Jan
Hi Joshua
Let me ask a question (apologies if this is answered somewhere above but
since this thread and its "parent" thread are long, I wanted to ask it and
get a straight answer) ...
What does the text look like that you wish to enter into a tiddler in
EDIT mode?
Second Question...
What does the text look like that TW will render assuming you have your
ideal magical tool?
Please, keep regexes, javascript et al out of this - keep it simple.
Coda
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[Jan]

Hi Coda,
I would like to avoid expressions looking to technical in the inputText.
In my concept the macro is transcluded by the rolename:

{{Peter}} like all roles leads to a tiddler which a only macro called
<<role>> as text. The macro is defined:
\define role()
<div class=role><$list
filter="[{!!title}tag[emphasis]]"><hr></$list><$list
filter="[{!!title}has[name]]"emptyMessage={{!!title}}>{{!!name}}</$list></div>
\end
This makes it possible to swap the names afterwards and to use uppercase
in the stylesheet.

My Problems start with the following:

There are two Layouts.
One for small devices using

PETER:
Now I say something.
Single Linebreaks are /okay/.

And for print an big screens which should display with indent roles:

PETER: Now I say something.
Single Linebreaks are /okay/.
BOB: And here I answer.
Here the spaces schould be displayed

This is why I chose to display the roles within <dd> elements.
...

You see, it is quite developped but it works if everything is entered
correctlay.
And the ReplacePragma I mentioned would solve all problems which resolve
in forgetting a line-break or so...

Yours Jan

Post by c***@outlook.com
Thanks Jan. That's very helpful.
Okay, next question...
In principle, are you happy with using references to TW macros in the
<<xp>>
Which would generate the following in the output (i.e. when viewed in TW)
PETER
NOTE: I said "in principle" and "using references". I'm not
proposing that have to *type* them like that in the editor. Also,
don't get hung up on my choice of macro name (<<xp>>) it could be
<<anything>> - it's not important right now.
One step at a time... :)
Hi Coda,
!Peter and Bob are doing some Action
{{Peter}}Now I say something.
Single Linebreaks are //okay//.
{{AnotherNamelaterreplacedbyBob}} And here I answer.

Here the spaces schould be displayed

/Peter and Bob are doing some Action/
PETER
Now I say something.
Single Linebreaks are /okay/.
BOB
And here I answer.
Here the spaces schould be displayed
I hope this demonstration is okay.
Basically this is what I want.
Thanks for your help
Jan

Thanks Jan.
It would be better if you present this DEVOID of JARGON. I don't
know (nor do I want to learn) screenwriting. Take what you've
INPUT TEXT HERE
OUTPUT TEXT HERE
That way I can see what you are trying to achieve without getting
bogged down in a bunch of terminology which, frankly, might be irrelevant.
Hope that makes sense.
It's possible my idea may work for you guys. It's also possible
it won't. But I need something representative to test. Okay?
Hi Coda.
My concept for formating is quite simple
I built a tool which is transclusions for the rolenames,
which are automatically inserted by Alain Dutech Comptext-Plugin.
For simplicity I would use headings for the action, and the
Tiddler-Ttitle (or an Alias inserted by the Alias-Plugin) for
the scene-title.
/Peter and Bob are doing some Action/
PETER
Now I say something.
BOB
And here I answer.
!Peter and Bob are doing some Action
{{Peter}}Now I say something.
{{AnotherNamelaterreplacedbyBob}} And here I answer.
The issue of indent rolenames can be handled by using
|<dd>-Elements |which should give a
:Forced negative indent Line.
My use for the replacePragma would the following to avoid
\replace /\n!/\n\n!/
\replace /\n:/\n\n:/
\replace /\n{{/\n\n:{{/
\replace /}}/}} /
Thanks for your help!
Jan

Post by c***@outlook.com
Hi Joshua
Let me ask a question (apologies if this is answered
somewhere above but since this thread and its "parent"
thread are long, I wanted to ask it and get a straight
answer) ...
What does the text look like that you wish to enter into a
tiddler in EDIT mode?
Second Question...
What does the text look like that TW will render assuming
you have your ideal magical tool?
Please, keep regexes, javascript et al out of this - keep it simple.
Coda
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[c***@outlook.com]

Hi jan

Post by Jan
Hi Coda,
I would like to avoid expressions looking to technical in the inputText.
{{Peter}} like all roles leads to a tiddler which a only macro called
\define role()
<div class=role><$list
filter="[{!!title}tag[emphasis]]"><hr></$list><$list
filter="[{!!title}has[name]]"emptyMessage={{!!title}}>{{!!name}}</$list></div>
\end

That's completely fine (I think). I hate typing out << and >> everywhere
-- when authoring, it breaks my concentration and "flow".

My "system" doesn't care what the markup looks like (it can be any
TW-valid-text -- a macro, a transclusion or any combination you can dream
up). My question was to make sure you're okay with seeing regular TW
markup in the editor and have the system output something else entirely
(which, when it is displayed in VIEW mode looks entirely different again).
I guess I didn't phrase the question properly.

Perhaps I should explain my system? I hope you're running Windows...

I use a combination of AutoHotKey (AHK) and TW macros to produce markup. I
find it extraordinarily useful for oft repeated phrases which occur a lot
(when authoring) and should always look the same. So, for example, in TW,
I define a single macro for each main character. <<jack>> and <<jill>>,
for example. Then, in AHK I define another macro which *triggers* the TW
macro reference as output -- I make sure that the AHK macro is as short as
possible, made up of one or two or at most three characters unlikely to
occur "naturally" -- using a hyphen at the start or end can help.

While I can't "see" exactly what it is you're trying to achieve (again, I
don't know screenwriting lingo), I'm now convinced the combination of TW ~
AHK is the way to trigger anything you want to "magically appear" in the
editor with one or two keystrokes.

So, final example, here's my section divider in TW:

\define break() <p><br><hr style="text-align:center;width:100px;"/><br></p>

And here is the AHK macro that triggers it:

:*:brk:: <<break>>

In TW, I type brk and out pops a call to <<break>> which, as you can see
will end up with a P element, a BR element and so on.

Now, just in case I haven't explained my system good enough for you, let me
say it another way...

AHK doesn't care how long or complex its output is. With a suitably
short/obscure key combo, you can output as much TW-wiki syntax as you like,
identically, a thousand times over, with ease.

Any questions? You know where I am :)

AHK Link: https://autohotkey.com/

[TonyM]

Coda,

Off topic on Autohotkey

I am a big user of autohot key, just a few very effective key board
alternatives.

I just added the following;

^,::
Send <<
return
^.::
send >>
return

So Control < and Control > give be doubles

Others include

1. NumpadEnter::Send {Down}{Home}
Move to beginning of next line without a new line
2. +NumpadEnter::Send {Down}{End}
Move to the end of next line without a new line
3. CapsLock::Shift
Never use Capslock but making it a shift sO I DO NOT SHOUT


Which make my life so much easier

Tony

PS Windows 10 considers it malware.

[c***@outlook.com]

Tony,

Try these:

;Pretty quotes
^':: SendInput “
^+':: SendInput ”



That's Ctrl ' and Ctrl-Shift ' (that's a single-quote at the end of each)

[TonyM]

“Nice”

On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 1:24:37 PM UTC+10,

Post by c***@outlook.com
Tony,
;Pretty quotes
^':: SendInput “
^+':: SendInput ”
That's Ctrl ' and Ctrl-Shift ' (that's a single-quote at the end of each)

[@TiddlyTweeter]

TonyM & Coda

Let me expose my age as its likely near yours. And since you broke this
thread.

Back in the days of Dos only, what you had was "programs" (extremely boring
things that only worked one way) and "TSRs" (extremely interesting gizmos
that let you rule programs).

AutoHotKey(AHK) is a great evolution of the TSRs that survived. Most of
them died on PCs with Windows. At one time TSRs were considered as
important as applications--and often they were better than them. Windows
killed most of them.

Enough nostalgia.

To the nub.

WHAT has AHK got to do with TiddlyWiki? I think VERY LITTLE. I guess it
could be useful in the editor if you put the time in to get it to run.
Frankly, I think its overrated--by you two. :-)

Talk-back ...

**Arguments cost 30 Euro for 5 minutes. But only 278 Euro for the full 45
minutes**

Josiah ;-)

[c***@outlook.com]

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
TonyM & Coda
Let me expose my age as its likely near yours. And since you broke this
thread.
Back in the days of Dos only, what you had was "programs" (extremely
boring things that only worked one way) and "TSRs" (extremely interesting
gizmos that let you rule programs).

Ah, yes, TSRs - recall I had a chat with Jeremy about Terminate and Stay
Resident code. Wrote a few -- some of them were even quite useful :)

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
AutoHotKey(AHK) is a great evolution of the TSRs that survived. Most of
them died on PCs with Windows. At one time TSRs were considered as
important as applications--and often they were better than them. Windows
killed most of them.

One could argue that most modern OSs are built from TSRs.

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Enough nostalgia.
To the nub.
WHAT has AHK got to do with TiddlyWiki? I think VERY LITTLE.

AHK has nothing to do with TW. But in combination, they work well together.

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Talk-back ...

I did. :)

[TonyM]

Josiah,

I remember the TSR's as well, really they were the first gateway into
multi-tasking on PC's, for the younger people the were "Terminate and Stay
Resident" programs basically which were reopened with a key combination.
Where they relate to Key mappings is because they were handy tools, that
could help shortcut otherwise complex processes. I remember SideKick and
the GEM Desktop as well. One lesson I learned is why have a popup clock
when you can have one on your desk.

Early windows did hold back some of these and also made many irrelevant,
but this customisability remains in the genes of Windows even today,
although some have been eroded to dumb down the OS for the common person.

With that background spelt out I would actually like to defend an interest
in such obscure tools, in fact they should not be so obscure. Computers
have always being about automation, and as a computer specialist since the
mid 80's I have seen the automation of many things, simplification and
accessibility has being massive, yet far too often the tools of automation
computers do not always permit self automation. Just think for yourself how
often you find yourself doing some repetitive tasks on a computer, and if
they include a Ctrl-alt-key combination or two you need finger gymnastics
along with deep focus to do something really trivial..

I have spent my life looking for opportunity to simplify or automate.

WHAT has AHK got to do with TiddlyWiki?

In both TWC and TW5 when I am building a solution I often find a need to
append or pre-pend one, and sometimes more lline's, with a piece of text.
The most common example may be placing * or # at the beginning of the line.
Often there is no prefix or suffix on each line you can do a search and
replace on, so you need to go to the beginning and/or end of each line and
type something and each time you do the cursor moves and you need to use
arrow keys or mouse. This can be time consuming and painful when you miss
or add a single key stroke.

With AHK my keyboard changes


1. NumpadEnter::Send {Down}{Home}
Move to beginning of next line without a new line
2. +NumpadEnter::Send {Down}{End}
Move to the end of next line without a new line
3. CapsLock::Shift
Never use Capslock but making it a shift sO I DO NOT SHOUT

Make all the difference working with tiddlywiki, believe it or not.

My check is "in the mail"

Tony

[HansWobbe]

Tony:

You might have encountered this statement from the 1980s ...
"If you're doing the same thing over and over again on a computer, then you
aren't thinking."

Enjoy your "vetran" tricks. They save precious time.

Cheers,
Hans


On Wednesday, September 13, 2017 at 8:20:58 PM UTC-4, TonyM wrote:

...

Just think for yourself how often you find yourself doing some repetitive
tasks on a computer, and if they include a Ctrl-alt-key combination or two
you need finger gymnastics along with deep focus to do something really
trivial..
...
Tony

[Jan]

Hi folks,
I am noticing a little desperate that this thread has drifted quite far
away form its original intention.
Just two things:
There is a text-completition tool in TW
http://snowgoon88.github.io/TW5-extendedit and I would strongly
recommend using and developping this instead of prehistoric
plattformdependent 3rd-party-tweaks. It even has the advantage of
browsing through the tiddlers for potential completitons.
And somewhat back to topic: It is far easier to handle transclusions
than macrodefinitions for the role-names.

And now back to the core of the thread:
Is there anyone working on or willing to work on adjustible parsers?


Thanks
Jan

Post by HansWobbe
You might have encountered this statement from the 1980s ...
"If you're doing the same thing over and over again on a computer,
then you aren't thinking."
Enjoy your "vetran" tricks. They save precious time.
Cheers,
Hans
...
Just think for yourself how often you find yourself doing some
repetitive tasks on a computer, and if they include a Ctrl-alt-key
combination or two you need finger gymnastics along with deep
focus to do something really trivial..
...
Tony
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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jan

Is there anyone working on or willing to work on adjustible parsers?


I feel, as I look at this more, that we have to get precise about what we
asking help for---otherwise its maybe TOO open-ended and would be a burden
for others to cope with?

I'm working on breaking the issue down into PARTS--as far as I'm able--so
that a more limited question (hopefully) someone might have interest in and
be able to answer without burden.

Its tricky, in that the underlying issue with "auto-markup" is quite close
to the central way TW works--so there are a lot of implications to deal
with---and no sane helper will want to deal with all that :-).

Best wishes
Josiah

[Jan]

Hi Josiah,
I wrote it this general here, because Jeremy mentioned the
idea/intention somewhat above.

My desires are quite simple:
I would like to have something which can transform the parsing of a set
of tiddlers which are defined by a listfilter according to a
replacePragma defined by reg-Expressions:

Transform: [tag[Scene]]

In Skeeves Pragma the desired changes would be this:
\replace /\n!/\n\n!/
\replace /\n:/\n\n:/
\replace /\n{{/\n\n:{{/
\replace /}}/}} /

Yours Jan

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao Jan
Is there anyone working on or willing to work on adjustible parsers?
I feel, as I look at this more, that we have to get precise about what
we asking help for---otherwise its maybe TOO open-ended and would be a
burden for others to cope with?
I'm working on breaking the issue down into PARTS--as far as I'm
able--so that a more limited question (hopefully) someone might have
interest in and be able to answer without burden.
Its tricky, in that the underlying issue with "auto-markup" is quite
close to the central way TW works--so there are a lot of implications
to deal with---and no sane helper will want to deal with all that :-).
Best wishes
Josiah
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[TonyM]

Jan,

I hope someone can help you get what you are asking for but I can't help
but think you are somewhat partially dictating a solution and not
describing the problem. I understand why Josiah was trying to open up
discussion. I support his approach.

One reason I wanted a clear understanding of what was needed, what was the
root problem to be solved, is because I am confident there are already
solutions that will address these effectively. In TWC there are a number of
opportunities to effect something similar, but I have seen them appearing
in TW5 in different guises. But I am not so sure, because more specific
questions are being asked.

Less specific questions may elicit answers that are more broadly applicable
to others.

For one, I am keen to develop a number of "shorthand" methods while taking
notes in class to enter text with Questions. Answers, Actions, Personal
areas to explore, key knowledge item etc. CSS, Auto Replace, Editor Tools
and more can solve these problems along with a parser.

Also digression into Auto-hot key becomes applicable in notepad, word and
outside TWC/TW5, I have not looked but I am quite sure Autohotkey workes on
other platforms as well, or at least has equivalents.

Lets see if someone can answer your question, but please consider why the
discussion diverged.

Regards
Tony

Regards
Tony

Post by Jan
Hi Josiah,
I wrote it this general here, because Jeremy mentioned the idea/intention
somewhat above.
I would like to have something which can transform the parsing of a set of
tiddlers which are defined by a listfilter according to a replacePragma
Transform: [tag[Scene]]
\replace /\n!/\n\n!/
\replace /\n:/\n\n:/
\replace /\n{{/\n\n:{{/
\replace /}}/}} /
Yours Jan
Ciao Jan
Is there anyone working on or willing to work on adjustible parsers?
I feel, as I look at this more, that we have to get precise about what we
asking help for---otherwise its maybe TOO open-ended and would be a burden
for others to cope with?
I'm working on breaking the issue down into PARTS--as far as I'm able--so
that a more limited question (hopefully) someone might have interest in and
be able to answer without burden.
Its tricky, in that the underlying issue with "auto-markup" is quite close
to the central way TW works--so there are a lot of implications to deal
with---and no sane helper will want to deal with all that :-).
Best wishes
Josiah
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[Jan]

Hello Tony, Hi all
to explain the problem a little wider:
I am working on a screewriting tool a part of which should of course be
autoformating the text according to the necessities of o screenplay. I
think I already described the standarts above.
A part of the idea is to use the standard TW markup for lists an
headings (: and !) in this formating (Which interestingly is also
compatible with the fountain syntax)
This makes sense because it is usefull to have a syntax which just needs
a marker at the start of the line and does not have to be closed (like
<dialog> </dialog>).
The problem with this syntax in TW is that the whole formatting might be
broken if you forget the blank line in between. This is why I seek a
parser which does not need the blank line before headings and lists.

Thanks for your interest and help.
Jan

Post by TonyM
Jan,
I hope someone can help you get what you are asking for but I can't
help but think you are somewhat partially dictating a solution and not
describing the problem. I understand why Josiah was trying to open up
discussion. I support his approach.
One reason I wanted a clear understanding of what was needed, what was
the root problem to be solved, is because I am confident there are
already solutions that will address these effectively. In TWC there
are a number of opportunities to effect something similar, but I have
seen them appearing in TW5 in different guises. But I am not so sure,
because more specific questions are being asked.
Less specific questions may elicit answers that are more broadly
applicable to others.
For one, I am keen to develop a number of "shorthand" methods while
taking notes in class to enter text with Questions. Answers, Actions,
Personal areas to explore, key knowledge item etc. CSS, Auto Replace,
Editor Tools and more can solve these problems along with a parser.
Also digression into Auto-hot key becomes applicable in notepad, word
and outside TWC/TW5, I have not looked but I am quite sure Autohotkey
workes on other platforms as well, or at least has equivalents.
Lets see if someone can answer your question, but please consider why
the discussion diverged.
Regards
Tony
Regards
Tony
Hi Josiah,
I wrote it this general here, because Jeremy mentioned the
idea/intention somewhat above.
I would like to have something which can transform the parsing of
a set of tiddlers which are defined by a listfilter according to a
Transform: [tag[Scene]]
\replace /\n!/\n\n!/
\replace /\n:/\n\n:/
\replace /\n{{/\n\n:{{/
\replace /}}/}} /
Yours Jan

Post by @TiddlyTweeter
Ciao Jan
Is there anyone working on or willing to work on adjustible parsers?
I feel, as I look at this more, that we have to get precise about
what we asking help for---otherwise its maybe TOO open-ended and
would be a burden for others to cope with?
I'm working on breaking the issue down into PARTS--as far as I'm
able--so that a more limited question (hopefully) someone might
have interest in and be able to answer without burden.
Its tricky, in that the underlying issue with "auto-markup" is
quite close to the central way TW works--so there are a lot of
implications to deal with---and no sane helper will want to deal
with all that :-).
Best wishes
Josiah
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[TonyM]

Jan,

Thanks for that clarification, the problem you face is now much simpler to
solve now I know the core requirements. As I said I have a hunch the answer
exists already so I will look around a little to see if I can find and
answer along with helping you extend the features.

Regards
Tony

Post by Jan
Hello Tony, Hi all
I am working on a screewriting tool a part of which should of course be
autoformating the text according to the necessities of o screenplay. I
think I already described the standarts above.
A part of the idea is to use the standard TW markup for lists an headings
(: and !) in this formating (Which interestingly is also compatible with
the fountain syntax)
This makes sense because it is usefull to have a syntax which just needs a
marker at the start of the line and does not have to be closed (like
<dialog> </dialog>).
The problem with this syntax in TW is that the whole formatting might be
broken if you forget the blank line in between. This is why I seek a parser
which does not need the blank line before headings and lists.
Thanks for your interest and help.
Jan
Jan,
I hope someone can help you get what you are asking for but I can't help
but think you are somewhat partially dictating a solution and not
describing the problem. I understand why Josiah was trying to open up
discussion. I support his approach.
One reason I wanted a clear understanding of what was needed, what was the
root problem to be solved, is because I am confident there are already
solutions that will address these effectively. In TWC there are a number of
opportunities to effect something similar, but I have seen them appearing
in TW5 in different guises. But I am not so sure, because more specific
questions are being asked.
Less specific questions may elicit answers that are more broadly
applicable to others.
For one, I am keen to develop a number of "shorthand" methods while taking
notes in class to enter text with Questions. Answers, Actions, Personal
areas to explore, key knowledge item etc. CSS, Auto Replace, Editor Tools
and more can solve these problems along with a parser.
Also digression into Auto-hot key becomes applicable in notepad, word and
outside TWC/TW5, I have not looked but I am quite sure Autohotkey workes on
other platforms as well, or at least has equivalents.
Lets see if someone can answer your question, but please consider why the
discussion diverged.
Regards
Tony
Regards
Tony

Post by Jan
Hi Josiah,
I wrote it this general here, because Jeremy mentioned the idea/intention
somewhat above.
I would like to have something which can transform the parsing of a set
of tiddlers which are defined by a listfilter according to a replacePragma
Transform: [tag[Scene]]
\replace /\n!/\n\n!/
\replace /\n:/\n\n:/
\replace /\n{{/\n\n:{{/
\replace /}}/}} /
Yours Jan
Ciao Jan
Is there anyone working on or willing to work on adjustible parsers?
I feel, as I look at this more, that we have to get precise about what we
asking help for---otherwise its maybe TOO open-ended and would be a burden
for others to cope with?
I'm working on breaking the issue down into PARTS--as far as I'm able--so
that a more limited question (hopefully) someone might have interest in and
be able to answer without burden.
Its tricky, in that the underlying issue with "auto-markup" is quite
close to the central way TW works--so there are a lot of implications to
deal with---and no sane helper will want to deal with all that :-).
Best wishes
Josiah
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[TonyM]

Jan,,

I will endeavor to explore your requirements over coming days however

- Have you looked at TWC as TiddlyWiki Classic does not have the same
blank line issues, has its own alias and other plugins?

I had to reread this whole thread again to try and clarify your
requirements. Perhaps not this time, but it may help in the future you may
consider the following;

I do not in anyway want to sound paternalistic, I do not have the
information to know your experience, so I will just spell it out.

- Build a requirements document
- Spell out your your requirements without any solution or method
- Have a separate section if you must on possible approaches
- Be comprehensive but not long winded
- Include important details such as specific characters, their meaning,
the result
- Use formatting to make it really clear
- Treat the reader including yourself as dumb or naive (in this first
document)
- Provide selected and specific references, for example to the fountain
standard that lists the special characters
- Be systematic because because if someone who knows about script
writing, can't describe it systematically, how can people who do not know
script witting find systematic solutions

Such a document will clarify your own requirements, set you up to succeed,
as well as make the cost of participation by volunteers much lower. Such a
document should work for any platform not just tiddlywiki and stands to
document what was done in the end.


Just imagine if someone in your audience had all the answers they could
simply read your requirements on one screen and pound out the answer on
another screen and you would be able to see how they have addressed every
part of your requirements.


I would also like to add that engineers, coders and many others have the
instinct that drives them into solution mode way too soon. I know because I
have had to battle this myself in my career. The solution I have found to
do as I have suggested above otherwise the conversation wanders all over
the place, but not in the direction you want, as is clear in the threads.


We can solve your problem and / or meet your requirements


Tony

Post by Jan
Hello Tony, Hi all
I am working on a screewriting tool a part of which should of course be
autoformating the text according to the necessities of o screenplay. I
think I already described the standarts above.
A part of the idea is to use the standard TW markup for lists an headings
(: and !) in this formating (Which interestingly is also compatible with
the fountain syntax)
This makes sense because it is usefull to have a syntax which just needs a
marker at the start of the line and does not have to be closed (like
<dialog> </dialog>).
The problem with this syntax in TW is that the whole formatting might be
broken if you forget the blank line in between. This is why I seek a parser
which does not need the blank line before headings and lists.
Thanks for your interest and help.
Jan
Jan,
I hope someone can help you get what you are asking for but I can't help
but think you are somewhat partially dictating a solution and not
describing the problem. I understand why Josiah was trying to open up
discussion. I support his approach.
One reason I wanted a clear understanding of what was needed, what was the
root problem to be solved, is because I am confident there are already
solutions that will address these effectively. In TWC there are a number of
opportunities to effect something similar, but I have seen them appearing
in TW5 in different guises. But I am not so sure, because more specific
questions are being asked.
Less specific questions may elicit answers that are more broadly
applicable to others.
For one, I am keen to develop a number of "shorthand" methods while taking
notes in class to enter text with Questions. Answers, Actions, Personal
areas to explore, key knowledge item etc. CSS, Auto Replace, Editor Tools
and more can solve these problems along with a parser.
Also digression into Auto-hot key becomes applicable in notepad, word and
outside TWC/TW5, I have not looked but I am quite sure Autohotkey workes on
other platforms as well, or at least has equivalents.
Lets see if someone can answer your question, but please consider why the
discussion diverged.
Regards
Tony
Regards
Tony

Post by Jan
Hi Josiah,
I wrote it this general here, because Jeremy mentioned the idea/intention
somewhat above.
I would like to have something which can transform the parsing of a set
of tiddlers which are defined by a listfilter according to a replacePragma
Transform: [tag[Scene]]
\replace /\n!/\n\n!/
\replace /\n:/\n\n:/
\replace /\n{{/\n\n:{{/
\replace /}}/}} /
Yours Jan
Ciao Jan
Is there anyone working on or willing to work on adjustible parsers?
I feel, as I look at this more, that we have to get precise about what we
asking help for---otherwise its maybe TOO open-ended and would be a burden
for others to cope with?
I'm working on breaking the issue down into PARTS--as far as I'm able--so
that a more limited question (hopefully) someone might have interest in and
be able to answer without burden.
Its tricky, in that the underlying issue with "auto-markup" is quite
close to the central way TW works--so there are a lot of implications to
deal with---and no sane helper will want to deal with all that :-).
Best wishes
Josiah
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[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao TonyM & Coda

Its very interesting. I agree that programs (like AHK) that can interface
with other programs AGNOSTICALLY (i.e. there are no dependencies) can be
super useful. Saving time. And getting round limitations in the Mother
program (that AHK is helping).

It deserves attention.

I often thought a site named "Applications that help me TiddlyWiki" with
filmed/documented demos could be really useful. (Otherwise it would likely
be too esoteric and end up as a footnote in the passing stream and looks
like just a Nerd's Fetish :-)

FWIW, the one program I use most to help with TW is the Windows program "
PowerGrep <https://www.powergrep.com/>" --- a feature rich
RegularExpression engine that has super file handling. For preparation of
material for a TW its amazingly useful ... for instance: to create tiddlers
in native format and inject them directly into a TW.

But all of this is for another thread. Later.

Best wishes
Josiah