Discussion:
Judaism never says 1+1=1, but Xianity *does* say 1+1+1 = 1
(too old to reply)
Riain Y. Barton
2004-07-15 18:55:58 UTC
Permalink
That is because my fellow Jews have made the mistake of using the term
"SOUL" when they should not have. Because there are different kind of
"souls" they should have used the Hebrew words and explain the difference --
but then again they should not even bother with Jew-Hating eejits as
yourselves.


"randy" <***@msn.com> wrote in message news:***@uni-berlin.de...
|
| "Susan Cohen" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message
| news:27kJc.64402$***@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
| >
| > "moshe" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
| > news:***@posting.google.com...
| > > "Susan Cohen" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message
| > news:<_7fJc.62295$***@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>...
| > > > "moshe" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message
| > > > news:***@posting.google.com...
| > > > > Jan Pompe <janp@!!dx.com.au> wrote in message
| > > > news:<***@news.supernews.com>...
| > > > >
| > > > > [snip]
| > > > >
| > > > > > > ------------begin quote--------
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > The Abudraham ("Sefer Abudraham," "The Order of the Prayer
After
| > > > > > > Shabbat and Their Explanation") explains that "the reason we
| smell
| > > > > > > spices after Shabbat ends is to comfort the person because the
| > extra
| > > > > > > soul ("Neshamah Yetayrah") leaves after Shabbat." The source
for
| > this
| > > > > > > idea is the Talmud, Tractate Baytzah (p. 16a):
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish said: The Holy One,
| > > > > > >blessed be He, gives the Jew an extra soul
| > > > > >> ("Neshamah Yetayrah") on Shabbat eve.
| > > > > >> After Shabbat ends, it is taken away from the person,
| > > > > >> as it says, "He ceased working and rested -
| > > > > >> Shavat Va'Yinafash" (Exodus 31:17),
| > > > > >> since it ceased, oh my, the soul is lost.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > - quoted from
| > > > > > >
| > > >
| >
|
http://www.hillel.org/Hillel/NewHille.nsf/0/861c88c28b24149185256943004a48f9?OpenDocument
| > > > >
| > > > > [snip]
| > > > >
| > > > > > Just in case though that extra soul is simply a way of saying we
| are
| > > > > > more alive on Shabbat. ...
| > > > >
| > > > > *************
| > > > >
| > > > > That is not what Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish said in the Talmud quote
| > > > > above.
| > > >
| > > > Even if this were true, it in NO WAY says "one soul + one soul = one
| > soul".
| > > > It flat out says EXTRA soul.
| > > >
| > > > So, you LIE, yet AGAIN.
| > > >
| > > > Susan
| > >
| > > **********
| > >
| > > It says 1 soul + 1 soul = 1 person
| >
| > No, it does not.
| > It says "One person HAS" two souls", not "one soul + one soul = one
soul"
| > You are comapring apples to oranges because, as usual, you KNOW you are
| > WRONG.
| >
| > > 1 person has 2 souls.
| >
| > Which is not the same as "1+1 = 1"
| > .
| > >
| > > So why can't 1 God have 3 souls?
| >
| > Because G-d is not a mere person, idiot.
| > God needs a soul the way a moose needs a showercap.
|
| You said, "It flat out says EXTRA soul." So what does that mean? You say
it
| doesn't mean 2 souls? It means that for 1 day a person can have 2 souls?
You
| could at least say the writer is taking liberties with human language.
| Instead you rant against a fellow-Jew. Disgusting!
| randy
|
|
Riain Y. Barton
2004-07-15 21:41:23 UTC
Permalink
So then please tell us how "christianity" explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word of God and part of their holy
scriptures?

And if you weren't so ignorant you would understand that when G-d created
those things, time had not been created yet...

But you refuse to study the following subject to educate yourself:
Philosophy, Logic, Physics, Metaphysics, Biblical Archaeology, and Biblical
Anthropology... Just for starters!

"moshe" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
| "Susan Cohen" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<lQmJc.64873$***@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>...
|
| ...
| > > > It is your liberal way of explaining away something that you find
| > > > embarrassing in the Orthodox form of your own religion.
| > > > Like those liberals who claim that the Genesis story of creation is
| > > > just an analogy for evolution.
| > > >
| > >
| > > Orthodox don't have a problem with evoloution either. WE leave the how
| > > to the scientist the why to the philosopher and theologian.
| >
| > In the 12th century, Maimonides came up with the way to bridge evolution
&
| > theology.
| > That's some accomplishment!!
|
| ***********
|
| Genesis says that the grass and the trees were created on the 3rd day.
| That the sun and the moon were created on the 4th day.
|
| Evolution says that it is impossible for the earth's plants to have
| come into being before the sun came into being.
|
| So creation and evolution cannot be reconciled.
|
| Even the idea that each day in Genesis represents a billion years
| doesn't work, since that would mean that the plants on Earth would
| have existed a billion years without sunlight, which evolutionists
| say is impossible.
|
| - moshe
Michael O'Neill
2004-07-15 23:45:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riain Y. Barton
So then please tell us how "christianity"
explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word
of God and part of their holy
scriptures?
We tend to take it all with a pinch of salt, Riain.

Christians accept it as a myth, a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be speaking for the Godhead.

After all, if you don't have a handle on...

"where did we come from and who created the world?"

...you're not going to survive long in the priest business.

You'd need to be pretty clueless not to see that straight off.
Post by Riain Y. Barton
And if you weren't so ignorant you
would understand that when G-d created
those things, time had not been created yet...
Time is a measure of change. If there is no change, then time has not
passed. Given that Genesis is a myth, but accepting its internal limits
for a second, its obvious that for God to have "done" anything, he must
have done so "in time".

Can you point out when "time" is stated to occur in Genesis? I don't
think its stated per se, but my recollection might be faulty. Not stated,
it is therefore assumed, since all things must occur "in" time for them
to be "real" to us, the inside of black holes notwithstanding.
Post by Riain Y. Barton
But you refuse to study the following
Well, actually Riain, all you need to study to understand Genesis is how
to read. Its pretty straightforward on its most basic level, like a lot
of Old Testament Stuff. It was designed to instruct the semi-literate, so
verbal jousting is at a minimum.

The rebuttal to your assertion that "time had not been created yet" is
partly the logical understanding of the verb "to do" in the paragraph
above, but the clincher is the language or Genesis itself:

Seven "days" describes a measure of time.

Seven "days" is the basis for Genesis and the primary invocation to keep
holy the Sabbath day, a day of rest.

How could you, with all your education, miss that? That's the difference
between being well read and being educated in a nutshell by the way.

The well-read man speaks of other people's knowledge.

The educated man speaks from his own knowledge.

Less waffly off-the-point quotations Riain, and more thinking, succinctly
expressed, if you please.
Post by Riain Y. Barton
Philosophy, Logic, Physics, Metaphysics,
Biblical Archaeology, and Biblical
Anthropology... Just for starters!
Education and myths are their own flip sides. Logos and Mythos.

You cannot explain one by the other except symbolically.

Surely an educated man like you knows that Riain.

<snip>

M.
L Perez
2004-07-16 01:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by Riain Y. Barton
So then please tell us how "christianity"
explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word
of God and part of their holy
scriptures?
We tend to take it all with a pinch of salt, Riain.
Christians accept it as a myth, a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be speaking for the Godhead.
please dont assume to speak for "Christians"
I am a Christian and I dont worship a "godhead" nor do I look at the OT as a
"myth"
Michael O'Neill
2004-07-16 01:56:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by Riain Y. Barton
So then please tell us how "christianity"
explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word
of God and part of their holy
scriptures?
We tend to take it all with a pinch of salt, Riain.
Christians accept it as a myth, a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be speaking for the Godhead.
please dont assume to speak for "Christians"
I am a Christian and I dont worship a "godhead"
nor do I look at the OT as a "myth"
While I know the "I know you are but what am I" school of debating
[IKYABWAI] still has some practitioners it isn't very convincing to me.

But you intrigue me. I have to related sets of questions:

#1.

How can you be a Christian and not worship the Godhead?

Is it that you don't understand the term?

Or do you define your worship in another way?

#2.

The original message from "moshe" <***@hotmail.com> in news:***@posting.google.com

referred to Genesis.

The old testament as a whole was referred to by Riain in

Message-ID <7SCJc.4202$***@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>

My comments referred to Genesis specifically, and not to the OT as a
whole, as a myth. A Creation Myth. One among many.

How could you have missed this?

In closing I note, FWIW:

The OT as a whole contains revelations but also many practical pieces of
advice on how to live a righteous life under certain circumstances and in
certain kinds of environments. Desert, or dryland habitations
perticularly. Not very suitable for where I live [Ireland], but moral
inferences may still be drawn nonetheless.

M.
L Perez
2004-07-16 07:08:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by Riain Y. Barton
So then please tell us how "christianity"
explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word
of God and part of their holy
scriptures?
We tend to take it all with a pinch of salt, Riain.
Christians accept it as a myth, a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be speaking for the Godhead.
please dont assume to speak for "Christians"
I am a Christian and I dont worship a "godhead"
nor do I look at the OT as a "myth"
While I know the "I know you are but what am I" school of debating
[IKYABWAI] still has some practitioners it isn't very convincing to me.
#1.
How can you be a Christian and not worship the Godhead?
there is no godhead, only the Father YHVH, the Son Jesus and their power to
manipulate the laws of physics, the holy spirit. Two seperate beings and
their invisible power, no "godhead"
please learn
John 17:3-5
John 20:17
John 5:19
John 14:28
Mark 10:18
Matthew 26:39
John 8:17-18
Mark 13:32
Matthew 20:23
Post by Michael O'Neill
referred to Genesis.
The old testament as a whole was referred to by Riain in
My comments referred to Genesis specifically, and not to the OT as a
whole, as a myth. A Creation Myth. One among many.
How could you have missed this?
Genesis is not a myth either.
Post by Michael O'Neill
The OT as a whole contains revelations but also many practical pieces of
advice on how to live a righteous life under certain circumstances and in
certain kinds of environments. Desert, or dryland habitations
perticularly. Not very suitable for where I live [Ireland], but moral
inferences may still be drawn nonetheless.
M.
living in a desert or a rain forest or a space ship does not exempt anyone
from doing God's will, learn Matthew 7:21
Michael O'Neill
2004-07-16 10:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by Riain Y. Barton
So then please tell us how "christianity"
explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word
of God and part of their holy
scriptures?
We tend to take it all with a pinch of salt, Riain.
Christians accept it as a myth,
a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be speaking
for the Godhead.
please dont assume to speak for "Christians"
I am a Christian and I dont worship a "godhead"
nor do I look at the OT as a "myth"
While I know the "I know you are
but what am I" school of debating
[IKYABWAI] still has some practitioners
it isn't very convincing to me.
#1.
How can you be a Christian and not worship the Godhead?
there is no godhead, only the Father
YHVH, the Son Jesus and their power to
manipulate the laws of physics, the holy spirit.
Two seperate beings and
their invisible power, no "godhead"
please learn
John 17:3-5
John 20:17
John 5:19
John 14:28
Mark 10:18
Matthew 26:39
John 8:17-18
Mark 13:32
Matthew 20:23
<shakes head>

Why does every guy with a point to make assume learning is the key to
right practise and right belief where religion is concerned?

But to your question.

I was raised to respect the Trinity as the Godhead, so perhaps we're
talking semantics here.

The Blessed Trinity is defined as being conposed of three devine persons
in the one God in my cathechism.

Its one of the Mysteries.

What does yours say?
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
referred to Genesis.
The old testament as a whole was referred to by Riain in
My comments referred to Genesis specifically, and not to the OT as a
whole, as a myth. A Creation Myth. One among many.
How could you have missed this?
Genesis is not a myth either.
Its a creation myth.

Ask the pope if you don't believe me.
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
The OT as a whole contains revelations
but also many practical pieces of
advice on how to live a righteous
life under certain circumstances and in
certain kinds of environments. Desert,
or dryland habitations
perticularly. Not very suitable for
where I live [Ireland], but moral
inferences may still be drawn nonetheless.
M.
living in a desert or a rain forest or
a space ship does not exempt anyone
from doing God's will, learn Matthew 7:21
We all approach God in our own way, unless you're one of the ilk who
condemns all dead children to purgatory because Preacher Man didn't get
to their parents in time.

That level of belief is pure hypocrisy of the "My God is the Only God"
sort and has little or nothing of humanity in it.

Wait, don't tell me, you regard the body as "sinful" too, I suppose?

M.
b***@yahoo.com
2004-07-16 19:00:16 UTC
Permalink
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God
raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you
whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in
any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
whereby we must be saved."

-- Acts 4:10-12
Riain Y. Barton
2004-07-16 20:40:22 UTC
Permalink
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/falseprophets.html

FALSE PROPHETS

Hugh Fogelman et al



The writings of Paul in the Nu TESTament consistently claims that it was God
himself who called him to be an apostle.

“The will and call of God” led him to preach, (1 Corinthians 1:1)

He is “approved by God,” (1 Thessalonians 2:4)

God qualified Paul to dispense his new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6)

God’s actions made him an apostle to the gentiles, (Galatians 2:8)

As for Paul’s knowledge of the so-called Christ, he also claims that it was
God who revealed his son Jesus to him. (Galatians 1:16) Therefore, it was
not Jesus who first revealed himself to Paul. How did Paul forget Jesus?

Even the pseudo-Pauline writers express things in the same vein. It is the
“commission God gave me.” (Colossians 1:25) Paul is commissioned “by the
will of God” (Ephesians 1:1) and is “made a minister by God’s gifts and
powers.”(Ephesians 3:7) These passages show that the authors apparently did
not have any concept that Jesus had called or appointed apostles, whether on
earth or even through spiritual channels. In fact, Paul clearly excludes
such an idea: “In the church, God has appointed in the first place apostles
. . .” (1 Corinthians 12:28). No writer who knew of the Gospel would have
said such a thing.

Paul, in his autobiography wrote, through the channel of God’s Spirit. “Did
the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people to whom it
came? If anyone claims to be inspired or a prophet, let him recognize that
what I write has the Lord’s authority.” [1 Corinthians 14:36-38]

Paul also preached about another god. He wrote on behalf of the false
prophet Jesus, who had advocated fear of a false god―the Christian devil.
Paul wrote that Satan (the devil) is “god” of THIS world (2 Corinthians
4:4). Paul writes that God, the Creator of ALL, battles against the rulers
and the powers of this dark word (Ephesians 6:12). He continues, saying
that Satan has his own will (Timothy 2:26). In Acts, Paul said he was told
to open peoples’ eyes and turn them from darkness to light and from the
POWER of Satan (Acts 26:18).

Peter continued the myth of Jesus, the false prophet, when in his address of
Pentecost as told in Acts 2:22: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words. Jesus
of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and
signs which God did by him to show midst of you, as ye yourselves also
know.”

What does God say about all this? “If there should stand up in your midst a
prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a
wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you
saying, Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall
worship them, do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer
of a dream – for HaShem, your God is testing you to know whether you love
HaShem, your God.” (Deuteronomy 13:2-4)

“But the prophet who willfully shall speak a word in My name, that which I
have not commanded him to speak, or who shall speak in the name of the gods
of others―that prophet shall die.”

In other words, anyone who speaks a word in God's name, which God did not
say, is a false prophet. Simple and direct! (Deuteronomy 18:20)

God was very clear on miracles, wonders and signs as he specified in
Deuteronomy 13:1-6.

You should carefully observe the entire word that I am commanding you. Do
not add to it and do not subtract from it. If there should arise amongst you
a prophet or a visionary, he may present you with a sign or miracle, and on
the basis of that sign or miracle, say to you, "Let us try out a different
god. Let us serve it and have a new spiritual experience."

Do not listen to the words of that prophet or visionary. God is testing you
to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your
soul. Follow the Lord your God, remain in awe of Him, keep His mitzvahs,
listen to Him and serve Him – and then you will be able to have a true
spiritual experience through Him.

Therefore, if any person―whether Jew or non-Jew―will perform signs and
wonders, saying that God sent him to either add or subtract a mitzvah from
the Torah, or explain it differently than the tradition from Moses, or claim
that the mitzvahs were given to Israel for only a limited time and not for
all generations―then we immediately know he is a false prophet.

Don’t you find it strange that Paul, Peter, and especially Jesus died
“EARLY” deaths?

Don’t you think that maybe they failed the test?

Were Paul and Jesus false prophets? You know it!




<***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
| "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
| the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God
| raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you
| whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
| which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in
| any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
| whereby we must be saved."
|
| -- Acts 4:10-12
L Perez
2004-07-17 08:08:46 UTC
Permalink
please sir,
Christ is the mediator between God and mankind, whatever Christ says is what
YHVH told him to say. In this way Paul was commissioned by God because
Christ does the will of YHVH
Post by Riain Y. Barton
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/falseprophets.html
FALSE PROPHETS
Hugh Fogelman et al
The writings of Paul in the Nu TESTament consistently claims that it was God
himself who called him to be an apostle.
"The will and call of God" led him to preach, (1 Corinthians 1:1)
He is "approved by God," (1 Thessalonians 2:4)
God qualified Paul to dispense his new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6)
God's actions made him an apostle to the gentiles, (Galatians 2:8)
As for Paul's knowledge of the so-called Christ, he also claims that it
was
Post by Riain Y. Barton
God who revealed his son Jesus to him. (Galatians 1:16) Therefore, it was
not Jesus who first revealed himself to Paul. How did Paul forget Jesus?
Even the pseudo-Pauline writers express things in the same vein. It is the
"commission God gave me." (Colossians 1:25) Paul is commissioned "by the
will of God" (Ephesians 1:1) and is "made a minister by God's gifts and
powers."(Ephesians 3:7) These passages show that the authors apparently
did
Post by Riain Y. Barton
not have any concept that Jesus had called or appointed apostles, whether on
earth or even through spiritual channels. In fact, Paul clearly excludes
such an idea: "In the church, God has appointed in the first place
apostles
Post by Riain Y. Barton
. . ." (1 Corinthians 12:28). No writer who knew of the Gospel would have
said such a thing.
Paul, in his autobiography wrote, through the channel of God's Spirit.
"Did
Post by Riain Y. Barton
the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people to whom it
came? If anyone claims to be inspired or a prophet, let him recognize that
what I write has the Lord's authority." [1 Corinthians 14:36-38]
Paul also preached about another god. He wrote on behalf of the false
prophet Jesus, who had advocated fear of a false god?the Christian devil.
Paul wrote that Satan (the devil) is "god" of THIS world (2 Corinthians
4:4). Paul writes that God, the Creator of ALL, battles against the rulers
and the powers of this dark word (Ephesians 6:12). He continues, saying
that Satan has his own will (Timothy 2:26). In Acts, Paul said he was told
to open peoples' eyes and turn them from darkness to light and from the
POWER of Satan (Acts 26:18).
Peter continued the myth of Jesus, the false prophet, when in his address of
Pentecost as told in Acts 2:22: "Ye men of Israel, hear these words. Jesus
of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and
signs which God did by him to show midst of you, as ye yourselves also
know."
What does God say about all this? "If there should stand up in your midst
a
Post by Riain Y. Barton
prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a
wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you
saying, Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall
worship them, do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer
of a dream - for HaShem, your God is testing you to know whether you love
HaShem, your God." (Deuteronomy 13:2-4)
"But the prophet who willfully shall speak a word in My name, that which
I
Post by Riain Y. Barton
have not commanded him to speak, or who shall speak in the name of the gods
of others?that prophet shall die."
In other words, anyone who speaks a word in God's name, which God did not
say, is a false prophet. Simple and direct! (Deuteronomy 18:20)
God was very clear on miracles, wonders and signs as he specified in
Deuteronomy 13:1-6.
You should carefully observe the entire word that I am commanding you. Do
not add to it and do not subtract from it. If there should arise amongst you
a prophet or a visionary, he may present you with a sign or miracle, and on
the basis of that sign or miracle, say to you, "Let us try out a different
god. Let us serve it and have a new spiritual experience."
Do not listen to the words of that prophet or visionary. God is testing you
to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your
soul. Follow the Lord your God, remain in awe of Him, keep His mitzvahs,
listen to Him and serve Him - and then you will be able to have a true
spiritual experience through Him.
Therefore, if any person?whether Jew or non-Jew?will perform signs and
wonders, saying that God sent him to either add or subtract a mitzvah from
the Torah, or explain it differently than the tradition from Moses, or claim
that the mitzvahs were given to Israel for only a limited time and not for
all generations?then we immediately know he is a false prophet.
Don't you find it strange that Paul, Peter, and especially Jesus died
"EARLY" deaths?
Don't you think that maybe they failed the test?
Were Paul and Jesus false prophets? You know it!
| "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
| the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God
| raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you
| whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
| which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in
| any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
| whereby we must be saved."
|
| -- Acts 4:10-12
Jan Pompe
2004-07-17 09:13:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by L Perez
please sir,
Christ is the mediator between God and mankind, whatever Christ says is what
YHVH told him to say. In this way Paul was commissioned by God because
Christ does the will of YHVH
Wot nonsense Paul did not fulfil the conditions that make a prophet as
outlined in Deuterony 13 and 18.

Sorry to disappoint you.
psalmsmith
2004-07-17 08:26:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Pompe
Post by L Perez
please sir,
Christ is the mediator between God and mankind, whatever Christ says is what
YHVH told him to say. In this way Paul was commissioned by God because
Christ does the will of YHVH
Wot nonsense Paul did not fulfil the conditions that make a prophet as
outlined in Deuterony 13 and 18.
Sorry to disappoint you.
What sort of qualifications does it take to be a witness?
Riain Y. Barton
2004-07-17 09:36:04 UTC
Permalink
No you are wrong, very wrong! I am so sorry that you have not been educated
and that you are in the dark.


"L Perez" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:i-idnQj__KwUQ2XdRVn-***@comcast.com...
| please sir,
| Christ is the mediator between God and mankind, whatever Christ says is
what
| YHVH told him to say. In this way Paul was commissioned by God because
| Christ does the will of YHVH
|
| "Riain Y. Barton" <***@earthlink.net> wrote in message
| news:W2XJc.13752$***@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
| > http://jdstone.org/cr/files/falseprophets.html
| >
| > FALSE PROPHETS
| >
| > Hugh Fogelman et al
| >
| >
| >
| > The writings of Paul in the Nu TESTament consistently claims that it was
| God
| > himself who called him to be an apostle.
| >
| > "The will and call of God" led him to preach, (1 Corinthians 1:1)
| >
| > He is "approved by God," (1 Thessalonians 2:4)
| >
| > God qualified Paul to dispense his new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6)
| >
| > God's actions made him an apostle to the gentiles, (Galatians 2:8)
| >
| > As for Paul's knowledge of the so-called Christ, he also claims that it
| was
| > God who revealed his son Jesus to him. (Galatians 1:16) Therefore, it
was
| > not Jesus who first revealed himself to Paul. How did Paul forget Jesus?
| >
| > Even the pseudo-Pauline writers express things in the same vein. It is
the
| > "commission God gave me." (Colossians 1:25) Paul is commissioned "by
the
| > will of God" (Ephesians 1:1) and is "made a minister by God's gifts and
| > powers."(Ephesians 3:7) These passages show that the authors apparently
| did
| > not have any concept that Jesus had called or appointed apostles,
whether
| on
| > earth or even through spiritual channels. In fact, Paul clearly excludes
| > such an idea: "In the church, God has appointed in the first place
| apostles
| > . . ." (1 Corinthians 12:28). No writer who knew of the Gospel would
have
| > said such a thing.
| >
| > Paul, in his autobiography wrote, through the channel of God's Spirit.
| "Did
| > the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people to whom
it
| > came? If anyone claims to be inspired or a prophet, let him recognize
that
| > what I write has the Lord's authority." [1 Corinthians 14:36-38]
| >
| > Paul also preached about another god. He wrote on behalf of the false
| > prophet Jesus, who had advocated fear of a false god?the Christian
devil.
| > Paul wrote that Satan (the devil) is "god" of THIS world (2 Corinthians
| > 4:4). Paul writes that God, the Creator of ALL, battles against the
rulers
| > and the powers of this dark word (Ephesians 6:12). He continues, saying
| > that Satan has his own will (Timothy 2:26). In Acts, Paul said he was
told
| > to open peoples' eyes and turn them from darkness to light and from the
| > POWER of Satan (Acts 26:18).
| >
| > Peter continued the myth of Jesus, the false prophet, when in his
address
| of
| > Pentecost as told in Acts 2:22: "Ye men of Israel, hear these words.
Jesus
| > of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and
| > signs which God did by him to show midst of you, as ye yourselves also
| > know."
| >
| > What does God say about all this? "If there should stand up in your
midst
| a
| > prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a
| > wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you
| > saying, Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall
| > worship them, do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that
| dreamer
| > of a dream - for HaShem, your God is testing you to know whether you
love
| > HaShem, your God." (Deuteronomy 13:2-4)
| >
| > "But the prophet who willfully shall speak a word in My name, that
which
| I
| > have not commanded him to speak, or who shall speak in the name of the
| gods
| > of others?that prophet shall die."
| >
| > In other words, anyone who speaks a word in God's name, which God did
not
| > say, is a false prophet. Simple and direct! (Deuteronomy 18:20)
| >
| > God was very clear on miracles, wonders and signs as he specified in
| > Deuteronomy 13:1-6.
| >
| > You should carefully observe the entire word that I am commanding you.
Do
| > not add to it and do not subtract from it. If there should arise amongst
| you
| > a prophet or a visionary, he may present you with a sign or miracle, and
| on
| > the basis of that sign or miracle, say to you, "Let us try out a
different
| > god. Let us serve it and have a new spiritual experience."
| >
| > Do not listen to the words of that prophet or visionary. God is testing
| you
| > to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all
| your
| > soul. Follow the Lord your God, remain in awe of Him, keep His mitzvahs,
| > listen to Him and serve Him - and then you will be able to have a true
| > spiritual experience through Him.
| >
| > Therefore, if any person?whether Jew or non-Jew?will perform signs and
| > wonders, saying that God sent him to either add or subtract a mitzvah
from
| > the Torah, or explain it differently than the tradition from Moses, or
| claim
| > that the mitzvahs were given to Israel for only a limited time and not
for
| > all generations?then we immediately know he is a false prophet.
| >
| > Don't you find it strange that Paul, Peter, and especially Jesus died
| > "EARLY" deaths?
| >
| > Don't you think that maybe they failed the test?
| >
| > Were Paul and Jesus false prophets? You know it!
| >
| >
| >
| >
| > <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| > news:***@posting.google.com...
| > | "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
| > | the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God
| > | raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you
| > | whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
| > | which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in
| > | any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
| > | whereby we must be saved."
| > |
| > | -- Acts 4:10-12
| >
|
|
L Perez
2004-07-17 10:53:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riain Y. Barton
No you are wrong, very wrong! I am so sorry that you have not been educated
and that you are in the dark.
of course, why didn't I think of that
Michael O'Neill
2004-07-29 14:50:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riain Y. Barton
No you are wrong, very wrong! I
am so sorry that you have not been educated
and that you are in the dark.
I didn't see you come back wit ha scintallating response to my reply.

M.

Riain Y. Barton
2004-07-16 20:40:55 UTC
Permalink
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/pauladmitstolyingfraud.html

PAUL ADMITS TO LYING & FRAUD



Paul, in his zealot exaltation, admits and justifies, on Jesuitical
principles, the preaching of falsehood, and feels really aggrieved that
honest men should take exceptions to such mendacious propaganda:

"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory;
why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom. 3.7)

In a spirit of good-humored naivet� he winks at the flock of Corinthians
whom he has hooked into the fold, and admits that he had tricked them:

"Though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it so:
... nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile." (2 Cor. 12.15-16)

As a "man that striveth for the mastery" (1 Cor. 9.25), Paul expounds to the
church leaders the modus operandi of the successful propagandist:

"I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the
Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under
the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To
them that are without law, as without law, that I might gain them that are
without law. ... I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means
save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake" (1 Cor. 9.19-23).

And he admits to the church of Corinth: "I robbed other churches ... to do
you service" (2 Cor. 11.8).

What did the church tell you to secure your commitment to Christianity? Was
your preacher, minister or priest like Paul?

Did Jesus teach to lie and steal?


<***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
| "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
| the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God
| raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you
| whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
| which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in
| any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
| whereby we must be saved."
|
| -- Acts 4:10-12
L Perez
2004-07-17 08:11:15 UTC
Permalink
I understand why practising homosexuals, feminists and unrepentant sinners
hate Paul and wish to remove his writings from the NT but why is it that you
hate him so?
Post by Riain Y. Barton
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/pauladmitstolyingfraud.html
PAUL ADMITS TO LYING & FRAUD
Paul, in his zealot exaltation, admits and justifies, on Jesuitical
principles, the preaching of falsehood, and feels really aggrieved that
"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory;
why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom. 3.7)
In a spirit of good-humored naiveté he winks at the flock of Corinthians
... nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile." (2 Cor. 12.15-16)
As a "man that striveth for the mastery" (1 Cor. 9.25), Paul expounds to the
"I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the
Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under
the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To
them that are without law, as without law, that I might gain them that are
without law. ... I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means
save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake" (1 Cor. 9.19-23).
And he admits to the church of Corinth: "I robbed other churches ... to do
you service" (2 Cor. 11.8).
What did the church tell you to secure your commitment to Christianity? Was
your preacher, minister or priest like Paul?
Did Jesus teach to lie and steal?
| "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
| the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God
| raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you
| whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
| which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in
| any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
| whereby we must be saved."
|
| -- Acts 4:10-12
Jan Pompe
2004-07-17 09:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by L Perez
I understand why practising homosexuals, feminists and unrepentant sinners
hate Paul and wish to remove his writings from the NT but why is it that you
hate him so?
What a question the post is quite self explanatory Paul was a mountebank.
Post by L Perez
Post by Riain Y. Barton
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/pauladmitstolyingfraud.html
PAUL ADMITS TO LYING & FRAUD
Paul, in his zealot exaltation, admits and justifies, on Jesuitical
principles, the preaching of falsehood, and feels really aggrieved that
"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory;
why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom. 3.7)
In a spirit of good-humored naiveté he winks at the flock of Corinthians
"Though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it
... nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile." (2 Cor.
12.15-16)
Post by Riain Y. Barton
As a "man that striveth for the mastery" (1 Cor. 9.25), Paul expounds to
the
Post by Riain Y. Barton
"I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the
Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under
the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
To
Post by Riain Y. Barton
them that are without law, as without law, that I might gain them that are
without law. ... I am made all things to all men, that I might by all
means
Post by Riain Y. Barton
save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake" (1 Cor. 9.19-23).
And he admits to the church of Corinth: "I robbed other churches ... to do
you service" (2 Cor. 11.8).
What did the church tell you to secure your commitment to Christianity?
Was
Post by Riain Y. Barton
your preacher, minister or priest like Paul?
Did Jesus teach to lie and steal?
| "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
| the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God
| raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you
| whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
| which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in
| any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
| whereby we must be saved."
|
| -- Acts 4:10-12
Riain Y. Barton
2004-07-17 09:34:56 UTC
Permalink
You are one stupid pagan idolater!

I am JEWISH.

And in case you have not learned or heard about yet, your "Jesus" is a myth
and never existed at all. Born out of the pagan religions of Persia, Greece,
and Rome!

Christianity and Islam are the EVIL forces against the ONE TRUE GOD AND KING
OF THE UNIVERSE!


"L Perez" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:lf2dnW4wbaCAQmXdRVn-***@comcast.com...
| I understand why practising homosexuals, feminists and unrepentant sinners
| hate Paul and wish to remove his writings from the NT but why is it that
you
| hate him so?
|
|
|
| "Riain Y. Barton" <***@earthlink.net> wrote in message
| news:r3XJc.13755$***@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
| > http://jdstone.org/cr/files/pauladmitstolyingfraud.html
| >
| > PAUL ADMITS TO LYING & FRAUD
| >
| >
| >
| > Paul, in his zealot exaltation, admits and justifies, on Jesuitical
| > principles, the preaching of falsehood, and feels really aggrieved that
| > honest men should take exceptions to such mendacious propaganda:
| >
| > "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his
glory;
| > why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom. 3.7)
| >
| > In a spirit of good-humored naivet� he winks at the flock of Corinthians
| > whom he has hooked into the fold, and admits that he had tricked them:
| >
| > "Though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it
| so:
| > ... nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile." (2 Cor.
| 12.15-16)
| >
| > As a "man that striveth for the mastery" (1 Cor. 9.25), Paul expounds to
| the
| > church leaders the modus operandi of the successful propagandist:
| >
| > "I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto
the
| > Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are
under
| > the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the
law;
| To
| > them that are without law, as without law, that I might gain them that
are
| > without law. ... I am made all things to all men, that I might by all
| means
| > save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake" (1 Cor. 9.19-23).
| >
| > And he admits to the church of Corinth: "I robbed other churches ... to
do
| > you service" (2 Cor. 11.8).
| >
| > What did the church tell you to secure your commitment to Christianity?
| Was
| > your preacher, minister or priest like Paul?
| >
| > Did Jesus teach to lie and steal?
| >
| >
| > <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| > news:***@posting.google.com...
| > | "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
| > | the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God
| > | raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you
| > | whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
| > | which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in
| > | any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
| > | whereby we must be saved."
| > |
| > | -- Acts 4:10-12
| >
|
|
L Perez
2004-07-17 10:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riain Y. Barton
You are one stupid pagan idolater!
I am JEWISH.
hmm... so you hate Paul because he left the Pharisees and followed the
Messiah...
you think the Pharisees were right?
Patricia Heil
2004-07-18 00:29:48 UTC
Permalink
JESUS WAS NOT THE MESSIAH.
Post by L Perez
Post by Riain Y. Barton
You are one stupid pagan idolater!
I am JEWISH.
hmm... so you hate Paul because he left the Pharisees and followed the
Messiah...
you think the Pharisees were right?
L Perez
2004-07-17 10:57:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Riain Y. Barton
You are one stupid pagan idolater!
BTW, thanx for the disparaging remarks... though as a true follower of the
Messiah I am not obliged to return them.
Emma
2004-07-17 12:42:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by L Perez
Post by Riain Y. Barton
You are one stupid pagan idolater!
BTW, thanx for the disparaging remarks... though as a true follower of the
Messiah I am not obliged to return them.
Who told you that?? There are Christian
posters here (alt messianic) who have got
disparaging remarks
down to a fine art. And, apparently, they
are biblically justified.

So repent, repent you snake! Go and sin
no more, you dog/swine! God will swat
you like a mosguito and send you to
burn for eternity in the fires of HELL! <grin>

(.....that sort of thing! :-)

~~~~~
Emma
~~~~~
L Perez
2004-07-18 01:29:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Emma
Post by L Perez
Post by Riain Y. Barton
You are one stupid pagan idolater!
BTW, thanx for the disparaging remarks... though as a true follower of the
Messiah I am not obliged to return them.
Who told you that??
Colossians 3:8






There are Christian
Post by Emma
posters here (alt messianic) who have got
disparaging remarks
down to a fine art.
you are mistaken. if they are doing so, they are false Christians. please
learn Matthew 7:21-23
ysbryd drwg
2004-07-19 14:53:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Emma
There are Christian
Post by Emma
posters here (alt messianic) who have got
disparaging remarks
down to a fine art.
you are mistaken. if they are doing so, they are false Christians. please
learn Matthew 7:21-23
This has always amazed me. People can be considered christians all the way up
until they do something (on purpose or accidental) that goes against
doctrine. Then the rest of the christians quickly denounce them as 'not true
christians'.

Is this not like calling someone human until they do something animalistic
(such as peeing in the woods) then denouncing them as 'not really human'?
Or perhaps calling someone American until they abuse a prisoner in another
country then saying 'they are not real americans'.

Accept the fact that your kind are just as flawed as the rest of us. What I
think you meant to say or rather how it should be said is 'They are not
following your god's teachings and should change their ways.'. A parent
doesn't disown a child when they make a mistake, that teach that child not to
make it again. Put another way as you consider yourselves brothers and
sisters in the faith, You can renounce the action but you cannot renounce the
relative.

--
"I contend that we are both atheists, I just believe in one less god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, then you
will know why I dismiss yours."
(Stephen F. Roberts)




To email me, please ring the bell further south.
Patricia Heil
2004-07-18 00:29:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by L Perez
Post by Riain Y. Barton
You are one stupid pagan idolater!
BTW, thanx for the disparaging remarks... though as a true follower of the
Messiah I am not obliged to return them.
JESUS WAS NOT THE MESSIAH.
Emma
2004-07-17 12:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by L Perez
I understand why practising homosexuals, feminists and unrepentant sinners
hate Paul and wish to remove his writings from the NT but why is it that you
hate him so?
Why are you trying your best to insult those who reject
Paul's writings rather than debating fairly?

Paul's teaching was inconsistent with Jesus'
teaching IMO. Paul taught Jews to abandon the Law.
Jesus did not.

~~~~~
Emma
~~~~~
L Perez
2004-07-18 01:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Emma
Post by L Perez
I understand why practising homosexuals, feminists and unrepentant sinners
hate Paul and wish to remove his writings from the NT but why is it that you
hate him so?
Why are you trying your best to insult those who reject
Paul's writings rather than debating fairly?
please, where is the insult? I merely said I understand their agenda.
Post by Emma
Paul's teaching was inconsistent with Jesus'
teaching IMO. Paul taught Jews to abandon the Law.
Jesus did not.
please learn Matthew 9:17; Mark 2:21, 22; Luke 5:37, 38
Jesus established a new covenant which rendered the law no longer necessary.
Everyone under the law was condemned by it for they could not live up to it
perfectly. Please learn Matthew 22:37-40; Luke 22:20; Luke 16:16
Jesus established a "new covenant" which supercedes the old covenant and
it's law codes.
b***@yahoo.com
2004-07-18 20:07:15 UTC
Permalink
"He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon
better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then
should no place have been sought for the second."

-- Hebrews 8:6-7
Riain Y. Barton
2004-07-16 20:41:48 UTC
Permalink
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/theproblemofpaul.html

The Problem of Paul
excerpt from: The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity
by Hyam Maccoby


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Preface

As a Talmudic scholar, I have found that knowledge of the Talmud and other
rabbinical works has opened up the meaning of many puzzling passages in the
New Testament. In my earlier book on Jesus, Revolution in Judaea, I showed
how, in the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus speaks and acts as a Pharisee, though
the Gospel editors have attempted to conceal this by representing him as
opposing Pharisaism even when his sayings were most in accordance with
Pharisee teaching. In the present book, I have used the rabbinical evidence
to establish an opposite contention: that Paul, whom the New Testament
wishes to portray as having been a trained Pharisee, never was one. The
consequences of this for the understanding of early Christianity are
immense.

In addition to the rabbinical writings, I have made great use of the ancient
historians, especially Josephus, Epiphanius and Eusebius. Their statements
must be weighed in relation to their particular interests and bias; but when
such bias has been identified and discounted, there remains a residue of
valuable information. Exactly the same applies to the New Testament itself.
Its information is often distorted by the bias of the author or editor, but
a knowledge of the nature of this bias makes possible the emergence of the
true shape of events.

For an explanation of my stance in relation to the various schools of New
Testament interpretation of modern times, the reader is referred to the Note
on Method, p. 206.

In using the Epistles as evidence of Paul's life, views and 'mythology', I
have confined myself to those Epistles which are accepted by the great
majority of New Testament scholars as the genuine work of Paul. Disputed
Epistles, such as Colossians, however pertinent to my argument, have been
ignored.

When quoting from the New Testament, I have usually used the New English
Bible version, but, from time to time, I have used the Authorized Version or
the Revised Version, when I thought them preferable in faithfulness to the
original. While the New English Bible is in general more intelligible to
modern readers than the older versions, its concern for modern English idiom
sometimes obscures important features of the original Greek; and its
readiness to paraphrase sometimes allows the translator's presuppositions to
colour his translation. I have pointed out several examples of this in the
text.

In considering the background of Paul, I have returned to one of the
earliest accounts of Paul in existence, that given by the Ebionites, as
reported by Epiphanius. This account has been neglected by scholars for
quite inadequate and tendentious reasons. Robert Graves and Joshua Podro in
The Nazarene Gospel Restored did take the Ebionite account seriously; but,
though they made some cogent remarks about it, their treatment of the matter
was brief. I hope that the present book will do more to alter the prevailing
dismissive attitude towards the evidence of this fascinating and important
ancient community.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Part I
Saul


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Chapter 1
The Problem of Paul

At the beginning of Christianity stand two figures: Jesus and Paul. Jesus is
regarded by Christians as the founder of their religion, in that the events
of his life comprise the foundation story of Christianity; but Paul is
regarded as the great interpreter of Jesus' mission, who explained, in a way
that Jesus himself never did, how Jesus' life and death fitted into a cosmic
scheme of salvation, stretching from the creation of Adam to the end of
time.

How should we understand the relationship between Jesus and Paul? We shall
be approaching this question not from the standpoint of faith, but from that
of historians, who regard the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament as
an important source of evidence requiring careful sifting and criticism,
since their authors were propagating religious beliefs rather than conveying
dispassionate historical information. We shall also be taking into account
all relevant evidence from other sources, such as Josephus, the Talmud, the
Church historians and the Gnostic writings.

What would Jesus himself have thought of Paul? We must remember that Jesus
never knew Paul; the two men never once met. The disciples who knew Jesus
best, such as Peter, James and John, have left no writings behind them
explaining how Jesus seemed to them or what they considered his mission to
have been. Did they agree with the interpretations disseminated by Paul in
his fluent, articulate writings? Or did they perhaps think that this
newcomer to the scene, spinning complicated theories about the place of
Jesus in the scheme of things, was getting everything wrong? Paul claimed
that his interpretations were not just his own invention, but had come to
him by personal inspiration; he claimed that he had personal acquaintance
with the resurrected Jesus, even though he had never met him during his
lifetime. Such acquaintance, he claimed, gained through visions and
transports, was actually superior to acquaintance with Jesus during his
lifetime, when Jesus was much more reticent about his purposes.

We know about Paul not only from his own letters but also from the book of
Acts, which gives a full account of his life. Paul, in fact, is the hero of
Acts, which was written by an admirer and follower of his, namely, Luke, who
was also the author of the Gospel of that name. From Acts, it would appear
that there was some friction between Paul and the leaders of the 'Jerusalem
Church', the surviving companions of Jesus; but this friction was resolved,
and they all became the best of friends, with common aims and purposes. From
certain of Paul's letters, particularly Galatians, it seems that the
friction was more serious than in the picture given in Acts, which thus
appears to be partly a propaganda exercise, intended to portray unity in the
early Church. The question recurs: what would Jesus have thought of Paul,
and what did the Apostles think of him?

We should remember that the New Testament, as we have it, is much more
dominated by Paul than appears at first sight. As we read it, we come across
the Four Gospels, of which Jesus is the hero, and do not encounter Paul as a
character until we embark on the post-Jesus narrative of Acts. Then we
finally come into contact with Paul himself, in his letters. But this
impression is misleading, for the earliest writings in the New Testament are
actually Paul's letters, which were written about AD 50-60, while the
Gospels were not written until the period AD 70-110. This means that the
theories of Paul were already before the writers of the Gospels and coloured
their interpretations of Jesus' activities. Paul is, in a sense, present
from the very first word of the New Testament. This is, of course, not the
whole story, for the Gospels are based on traditions and even written
sources which go back to a time before the impact of Paul, and these early
traditions and sources are not entirely obliterated in the final version and
give valuable indications of what the story was like before Paulinist
editors pulled it into final shape. However, the dominant outlook and
shaping perspective of the Gospels is that of Paul, for the simple reason
that it was the Paulinist view of what Jesus' sojourn on Earth had been
about that was triumphant in the Church as it developed in history. Rival
interpretations, which at one time had been orthodox, opposed to Paul's very
individual views, now became heretical and were crowded out of the final
version of the writings adopted by the Pauline Church as the inspired canon
of the New Testament.

This explains the puzzling and ambiguous role given in the Gospels to the
companions of Jesus, the twelve disciples. They are shadowy figures, who are
allowed little personality, except of a schematic kind. They are also
portrayed as stupid; they never quite understand what Jesus is up to. Their
importance in the origins of Christianity is played down in a remarkable
way. For example, we find immediately after Jesus' death that the leader of
the Jerusalem Church is Jesus' brother James. Yet in the Gospels, this James
does not appear at all as having anything to do with Jesus' mission and
story. Instead, he is given a brief mention as one of the brothers of Jesus
who allegedly opposed Jesus during his lifetime and regarded him as mad. How
it came about that a brother who had been hostile to Jesus in his lifetime
suddenly became the revered leader of the Church immediately after Jesus'
death is not explained, though one would have thought that some explanation
was called for. Later Church legends, of course, filled the gap with stories
of the miraculous conversion of James after the death of Jesus and his
development into a saint. But the most likely explanation is, as will be
argued later, that the erasure of Jesus' brother dames (and his other
brothers) from any significant role in the Gospel story is part of the
denigration of the early leaders who had been in close contact with Jesus
and regarded with great suspicion and dismay the Christological theories of
the upstart Paul, flaunting his brand new visions in interpretation of the
Jesus whom he had never met in the flesh.

Who, then, was Paul? Here we would seem to have a good deal of information;
but on closer examination, it will turn out to be full of problems. We have
the information given by Paul about himself in his letters, which are far
from impersonal and often take an autobiographical turn. Also we have the
information given in Acts, in which Paul plays the chief role. But the
information given by any person about himself always has to be treated with
a certain reserve, since everyone has strong motives for putting himself in
the best possible light. And the information given about Paul in Acts also
requires close scrutiny, since this work was written by someone committed to
the Pauline cause. Have we any other sources for Paul's biography? As a
matter of fact, we have, though they are scattered in various unexpected
places, which it will be our task to explore: in a fortuitously preserved
extract from the otherwise lost writings of the Ebionites, a sect of great
importance for our quest; in a disguised attack on Paul included in a text
of orthodox Christian authority; and in an Arabic manuscript, in which a
text of the early Jewish Christians, the opponents of Paul, has been
preserved by an unlikely chain of circumstances.

Let us first survey the evidence found in the more obvious and well-known
sources. It appears from Acts that Paul was at first called 'Saul', and that
his birthplace was Tarsus, a city in Asia Minor (Acts 9:11, and 21:39, and
22:3). Strangely enough, however, Paul himself, in his letters, never
mentions that he came from Tarsus, even when he is at his most
autobiographical. Instead, he gives the following information about his
origins: 'I am an Israelite myself, of the stock of Abraham, of the tribe of
Benjamin' (Romans 11:2); and '... circumcised on my eighth day, Israelite by
race, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born and bred; in my attitude to
the law, a Pharisee....' (Philippians 3:5). It seems that Paul was not
anxious to impart to the recipients of his letters that he came from
somewhere so remote as Tarsus from Jerusalem, the powerhouse of Pharisaism.
The impression he wished to give, of coming from an unimpeachable Pharisaic
background, would have been much impaired by the admission that he in fact
came from Tarsus, where there were few, if any, Pharisee teachers and a
Pharisee training would have been hard to come by.

We encounter, then, right at the start of our enquiry into Paul's
background, the question: was Paul really from a genuine Pharisaic family,
as he says to his correspondents, or was this just something that he said to
increase his status in their eyes? The fact that this question is hardly
ever asked shows how strong the influence of traditional religious attitudes
still is in Pauline studies. Scholars feel that, however objective their
enquiry is supposed to be, they must always preserve an attitude of deep
reverence towards Paul, and never say anything to suggest that he may have
bent the truth at times, though the evidence is strong enough in various
parts of his life-story that he was not above deception when he felt it
warranted by circumstances.

It should be noted (in advance of a full discussion of the subject) that
modern scholarship has shown that, at this time, the Pharisees were held in
high repute throughout the Roman and Parthian empires as a dedicated group
who upheld religious ideals in the face of tyranny, supported leniency and
mercy in the application of laws, and championed the rights of the poor
against the oppression of the rich. The undeserved reputation for hypocrisy
which is attached to the name 'Pharisee' in medieval and modern times is due
to the campaign against the Pharisees in the Gospels -- a campaign dictated
by politico-religious considerations at the time when the Gospels were given
their final editing, about forty to eighty years after the death of Jesus.
Paul's desire to be thought of as a person of Pharisee upbringing should
thus be understood in the light of the actual reputation of the Pharisees in
Paul's lifetime; Paul was claiming a high honour, which would much enhance
his status in the eyes of his correspondents.

Before looking further into Paul's claim to have come from a Pharisee
background, let us continue our survey of what we are told about Paul's
career in the more accessible sources. The young Saul, we are told, left
Tarsus and came to the Land of Israel, where he studied in the Pharisee
academy of Gamaliel (Acts 22:3). We know from other sources about Gamaliel,
who is a highly respected figure in the rabbinical writings such as the
Mishnah, and was given the title 'Rabban', as the leading sage of his day.
That he was the leader of the whole Pharisee party is attested also by the
New Testament itself, for he plays a prominent role in one scene in the book
of Acts (chapter 5) -- a role that, as we shall see later, is hard to
reconcile with the general picture of the Pharisees given in the Gospels.

Yet Paul himself, in his letters, never mentions that he was a pupil of
Gamaliel, even when he is most concerned to stress his qualifications as a
Pharisee. Here again, then, the question has to be put: was Paul ever really
a pupil of Gamaliel or was this claim made by Luke as an embellishment to
his narrative? As we shall see later, there are certain considerations which
make it most unlikely, quite apart from Paul's significant omission to say
anything about the matter, that Paul was ever a pupil of Gamaliel's.

We are also told of the young Saul that he was implicated, to some extent,
in the death of the martyr Stephen. The people who gave false evidence
against Stephen, we are told, and who also took the leading part in the
stoning of their innocent victim, 'laid their coats at the feet of a young
man named Saul'. The death of Stephen is described, and it is added, 'And
Saul was among those who approved of his murder' (Acts 8:1). How much truth
is there in this detail? Is it to be regarded as historical fact or as
dramatic embellishment, emphasizing the contrast between Paul before and
after conversion? The death of Stephen is itself an episode that requires
searching analysis, since it is full of problems and contradictions. Until
we have a better idea of why and by whom Stephen was killed and what were
the views for which he died, we can only note the alleged implication of
Saul in the matter as a subject for further investigation. For the moment,
we also note that the alleged implication of Saul heightens the impression
that adherence to Pharisaism would mean violent hostility to the followers
of Jesus.

The next thing we are told about Saul in Acts is that he was 'harrying the
Church; he entered house after house, seizing men and women, and sending
them to prison' (Acts 8:3). We are not told at this point by what authority
or on whose orders he was carrying out this persecution. It was clearly not
a matter of merely individual action on his part, for sending people to
prison can only be done by some kind of official. Saul must have been acting
on behalf of some authority, and who this authority was can be gleaned from
later incidents in which Saul was acting on behalf of the High Priest.
Anyone with knowledge of the religious and political scene at this time in
Judaea feels the presence of an important problem here: the High Priest was
not a Pharisee, but a Sadducee, and the Sadducees were bitterly opposed to
the Pharisees. How is it that Saul, allegedly an enthusiastic Pharisee ('a
Pharisee of the Pharisees'), is acting hand in glove with the High Priest?
The picture we are given in our New Testament sources of Saul, in the days
before his conversion to Jesus, is contradictory and suspect.

The next we hear of Saul (Acts, chapter 9) is that he 'was still breathing
murderous threats against the disciples of the Lord. He went to the High
Priest and applied for letters to the synagogues at Damascus authorizing him
to arrest anyone he found, men or women, who followed the new way, and bring
them to Jerusalem.' This incident is full of mystery. If Saul had his hands
so full in 'harrying the church' in Judaea, why did he suddenly have the
idea of going off to Damascus to harry the Church there? What was the
special urgency of a visit to Damascus? Further, what kind of jurisdiction
did the Jewish High Priest have over the non-Jewish city of Damascus that
would enable him to authorize arrests and extraditions in that city? There
is, moreover, something very puzzling about the way in which Saul's relation
to the High Priest is described: as if he is a private citizen who wishes to
make citizen's arrests according to some plan of his own, and approaches the
High Priest for the requisite authority. Surely there must have been some
much more definite official connection between the High Priest and Saul, not
merely that the High Priest was called upon to underwrite Saul's project. It
seems more likely that the plan was the High Priest's and not Saul's, and
that Saul was acting as agent or emissary of the High Priest. The whole
incident needs to be considered in the light of probabilities and current
conditions.

The book of Acts then continues with the account of Saul's conversion on the
road to Damascus through a vision of Jesus and the succeeding events of his
life as a follower of Jesus. The pre-Christian period of Saul's life,
however, does receive further mention later in the book of Acts, both in
chapter 22 and chapter 26, where some interesting details are added, and
also some further puzzles.

In chapter 22, Saul (now called Paul), is shown giving his own account of
his early life in a speech to the people after the Roman commandant had
questioned him. Paul speaks as follows:

I am a true-born Jew, a native of Tarsus in Cilicia. I was brought up in
this city, and as a pupil of Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in every
point of our ancestral law. I have always been ardent in God's service, as
you all are today. And so I began to persecute this movement to the death,
arresting its followers, men and women alike, and putting them in chains.
For this I have as witnesses the High Priest and the whole Council of
Elders. I was given letters from them to our fellow-Jews at Damascus, and
had started out to bring the Christians there to Jerusalem as prisoners for
punishment; and this is what happened....

Paul then goes on to describe his vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus.
Previously he had described himself to the commandant as 'a Jew, a Tarsian
from Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city'.

It is from this passage that we learn of Paul's native city, Tarsus, and of
his alleged studies under Gamaliel. Note that he says that, though born in
Tarsus, he was 'brought up in this city' (i.e. Jerusalem) which suggests
that he spent his childhood in Jerusalem. Does this mean that his parents
moved from Tarsus to Jerusalem? Or that the child was sent to Jerusalem on
his own, which seems unlikely? If Paul spent only a few childhood years in
Tarsus, he would hardly describe himself proudly as 'a citizen of no mean
city' (Tarsus). Jews who had spent most of their lives in Jerusalem would be
much more prone to describe themselves as citizens of Jerusalem. The
likelihood is that Paul moved to Jerusalem when he was already a grown man,
and he left his parents behind in Tarsus, which seems all the more probable
in that they receive no mention in any account of Paul's experiences in
Jerusalem. As for Paul's alleged period of studies under Gamaliel, this
would have had to be in adulthood, for Gamaliel was a teacher of advanced
studies, not a teacher of children. He would accept as a pupil only someone
well grounded and regarded as suitable for the rabbinate. The question,
then, is where and how Paul received this thorough grounding, if at all. As
pointed out above and argued fully below, there are strong reasons to think
that Paul never was a pupil of Gamaliel.

An important question that also arises in this chapter of Acts is that of
Paul's Roman citizenship. This is mentioned first in chapter 16. Paul claims
to have been born a Roman citizen, which would mean that his father was a
Roman citizen. There are many problems to be discussed in this connection,
and some of these questions impinge on Paul's claim to have had a Pharisaic
background.

A further account of Paul's pre-Christian life is found in chapter 26 of
Acts, in a speech addressed by Paul to King Agrippa. Paul says:

My life from my youth up, the life I led from the beginning among my people
and in Jerusalem, is familiar to all Jews. Indeed they have known me long
enough and could testify, if they only would, that I belonged to the
strictest group in our religion: I lived as a Pharisee. And it is for a hope
kindled by God's promise to our forefathers that I stand in the dock today.
Our twelve tribes hope to see the fulfilment of that promise.... I myself
once thought it my duty to work actively against the name of Jesus of
Nazareth; and I did so in Jerusalem. It was I who imprisoned many of God's
people by authority obtained from the chief priests; and when they were
condemned to death, my vote was cast against them. In all the synagogues I
tried by repeated punishment to make them renounce their faith; indeed my
fury rose to such a pitch that I extended my persecution to foreign cities.
On one such occasion I was travelling to Damascus with authority and
commission from the chief priests....

Again the account continues with the vision on the road to Damascus.

This speech, of course, cannot be regarded as the authentic words addressed
by Paul to King Agrippa, but rather as a rhetorical speech composed by Luke,
the author of Acts, in the style of ancient historians. Thus the claim made
in the speech that Paul's career as a Pharisee of high standing was known to
'all Jews' cannot be taken at face value. It is interesting that Paul is
represented as saying that he 'cast his vote' against the followers of
Jesus, thus helping to condemn them to death. This can only refer to the
voting of the Sanhedrin or Council of Elders, which was convened to try
capital cases; so what Luke is claiming here for his hero Paul is that he
was at one time a member of the Sanhedrin. This is highly unlikely, for Paul
would surely have made this claim in his letters, when writing about his
credentials as a Pharisee, if it had been true. There is, however, some
confusion both in this account and in the accounts quoted above about
whether the Sanhedrin, as well as the High Priest or 'chief priests', was
involved in the persecution of the followers of Jesus. Sometimes the High
Priest alone is mentioned, sometimes the Sanhedrin is coupled with him, as
if the two are inseparable. But we see on two occasions cited in Acts that
the High Priest was outvoted by the Pharisees in the Sanhedrin; on both
occasions, the Pharisees were opposing an attempt to persecute the followers
of Jesus; so the representation of High Priest and Sanhedrin as having
identical aims is one of the suspect features of these accounts.

It will be seen from the above collation of passages in the book of Acts
concerning Paul's background and early life, together with Paul's own
references to his background in his letters, that the same strong picture
emerges: that Paul was at first a highly trained Pharisee rabbi, learned in
all the intricacies of the rabbinical commentaries on scripture and legal
traditions (afterwards collected in the rabbinical compilations, the Talmud
and Midrash). As a Pharisee, Paul was strongly opposed to the new sect which
followed Jesus and which believed that he had been resurrected after his
crucifixion. So opposed was Paul to this sect that he took violent action
against it, dragging its adherents to prison. Though this strong picture has
emerged, some doubts have also arisen, which, so far, have only been lightly
sketched in: how is it, for example, that Paul claims to have voted against
Christians on trial for their lives before the Sanhedrin, when in fact, in
the graphically described trial of Peter before the Sanhedrin (Acts 5), the
Pharisees, led by Gamaliel, voted for the release of Peter? What kind of
Pharisee was Paul, if he took an attitude towards the early Christians
which, on the evidence of the same book of Acts, was untypical of the
Pharisees? And how is it that this book of Acts is so inconsistent within
itself that it describes Paul as violently opposed to Christianity because
of his deep attachment to Pharisaism, and yet also describes the Pharisees
as being friendly towards the early Christians, standing up for them and
saving their lives?

It has been pointed out by many scholars that the book of Acts, on the
whole, contains a surprising amount of evidence favourable to the Pharisees,
showing them to have been tolerant and merciful. Some scholars have even
argued that the book of Acts is a pro-Pharisee work; but this can hardly be
maintained. For, outweighing all the evidence favourable to the Pharisees is
the material relating to Paul, which is, in all its aspects, unfavourable to
the Pharisees; not only is Paul himself portrayed as being a virulent
persecutor when he was a Pharisee, but Paul declares that he himself was
punished by flogging five times (II Corinthians 11:24) by the 'Jews'
(usually taken to mean the Pharisees). So no one really comes away from
reading Acts with any good impression of the Pharisees, but rather with the
negative impressions derived from the Gospels reinforced.

Why, therefore, is Paul always so concerned to stress that he came from a
Pharisee background? A great many motives can be discerned, but there is one
that needs to be singled out here: the desire to stress the alleged
continuity between Judaism and Pauline Christianity. Paul wishes to say that
whereas, when he was a Pharisee, he mistakenly regarded the early Christians
as heretics who had departed from true Judaism, after his conversion he took
the opposite view, that Christianity was the true Judaism. All his training
as a Pharisee, he wishes to say -- all his study of scripture and
tradition -- really leads to the acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah
prophesied in the Old Testament. So when Paul declares his Pharisee past, he
is not merely proclaiming his own sins -- 'See how I have changed, from
being a Pharisee persecutor to being a devoted follower of Jesus!' -- he is
also proclaiming his credentials -- 'If someone as learned as I can believe
that Jesus was the fulfilment of the Torah, who is there fearless enough to
disagree?'

On the face of it, Paul's doctrine of Jesus is a daring departure from
Judaism. Paul was advocating a doctrine that seemed to have far more in
common with pagan myths than with Judaism: that Jesus was a divine-human
person who had descended to Earth from the heavens and experienced death for
the express purpose of saving mankind. The very fact that the Jews found
this doctrine new and shocking shows that it plays no role in the Jewish
scripture, at least not in any way easily discernible. Yet Paul was not
content to say that his doctrine was new; on the contrary, he wished to say
that every line of the Jewish scripture was a foreshadowing of the
Jesus-event as he understood it, and that those who understood the scripture
in any other way were failing in comprehension of what Judaism had always
been about. So his insistence on his Pharisaic upbringing was part of his
insistence on continuity.

There were those who accepted Paul's doctrine, but did regard it as a
radical new departure, with nothing in the Jewish scriptures foreshadowing
it. The best known figure of this kind was Marcion, who lived about a
hundred years after Paul, and regarded Paul as his chief inspiration. Yet
Marcion refused to see anything Jewish in Paul's doctrine, but regarded it
as a new revelation. He regarded the Jewish scriptures as the work of the
Devil and he excluded the Old Testament from his version of the Bible.

Paul himself rejected this view. Though he regarded much of the Old
Testament as obsolete, superseded by the advent of Jesus, he still regarded
it as the Word of God, prophesying the new Christian Church and giving it
authority. So his picture of himself as a Pharisee symbolizes the continuity
between the old dispensation and the new: a figure who comprised in his own
person the turning-point at which Judaism was transformed into Christianity.

Throughout the Christian centuries, there have been Christian scholars who
have seen Paul's claim to a Pharisee background in this light. In the
medieval Disputations convened by Christians to convert Jews, arguments were
put forward purporting to show that not only the Jewish scriptures but even
the rabbinical writings, the Talmud and the Midrash, supported the claims of
Christianity that Jesus was the Messiah, that he was divine and that he had
to suffer death for mankind. Though Paul was not often mentioned in these
Disputations, the project was one of which he would have approved. In modern
times, scholars have laboured to argue that Paul's doctrines about the
Messiah and divine suffering are continuous with Judaism as it appears in
the Bible, the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha, and in the rabbinical writings
(the best-known effort of this nature is Paul and Rabbinic Judaism, by W.D.
Davies).

So Paul's claim to expert Pharisee learning is relevant to a very important
and central issue -- whether Christianity, in the form given to it by Paul,
is really continuous with Judaism or whether it is a new doctrine, having no
roots in Judaism, but deriving, in so far as it has an historical
background, from pagan myths of dying and resurrected gods and Gnostic myths
of heaven-descended redeemers. Did Paul truly stand in the Jewish tradition,
or was he a person of basically Hellenistic religious type, but seeking to
give a colouring of Judaism to a salvation cult that was really opposed to
everything that Judaism stood for?


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Chapter 2
The Standpoint of this Book

As against the conventional picture of Paul, outlined in the last chapter,
the present book has an entirely different and unfamiliar view to put
forward. This view of Paul is not only unfamiliar in itself, but it also
involves many unfamiliar standpoints about other issues which are relevant
and indeed essential to a correct assessment of Paul; for example:

Who and what were the Pharisees? What were their religious and political
views as opposed to those of the Sadducees and other religious and political
groups of the time? What was their attitude to Jesus? What was their
attitude towards the early Jerusalem Church?

Who and what was Jesus? Did he really see himself as a saviour who had
descended from heaven in order to suffer crucifixion? Or did he have
entirely different aims, more in accordance with the Jewish thoughts and
hopes of his time? Was the historical Jesus quite a different person from
the Jesus of Paul's ideology, based on Paul's visions and trances?

Who and what were the early Church of Jerusalem, the first followers of
Jesus? Have their views been correctly represented by the later Church? Did
James and Peter, the leaders of the Jerusalem Church, agree with Paul's
views (as orthodox Christianity claims) or did they oppose him bitterly,
regarding him as a heretic and a betrayer of the aims of Jesus?

Who and what were the Ebionites, whose opinions and writings were suppressed
by the orthodox Church? Why did they denounce Paul? Why did they combine
belief in Jesus with the practice of Judaism?

Why did they believe in Jesus as Messiah, but not as God? Were they a later
'Judaizing' group, or were they, as they claimed to be, the remnants of the
authentic followers of Jesus, the church of James and Peter?

The arguments in this book will inevitably become complicated, since every
issue is bound up with every other. It is impossible to answer any of the
above questions without bringing all the other questions into consideration.
It is, therefore, convenient at this point to give an outline of the
standpoint to which all the arguments of this book converge. This is not an
attempt to prejudge the issue. The following summary of the findings of this
book may seem dogmatic at this stage, but it is intended merely as a guide
to the ramifications of the ensuing arguments and a bird's eye view of the
book, and as such will stand or fall with the cogency of the arguments
themselves. The following, then, are the propositions argued in the present
book:

1 Paul was never a Pharisee rabbi, but was an adventurer of undistinguished
background. He was attached to the Sadducees, as a police officer under the
authority of the High Priest, before his conversion to belief in Jesus. His
mastery of the kind of learning associated with the Pharisees was not great.
He deliberately misrepresented his own biography in order to increase the
effectiveness of missionary activities.

2 Jesus and his immediate followers were Pharisees. Jesus had no intention
of founding a new religion. He regarded himself as the Messiah in the normal
Jewish sense of the term, i.e. a human leader who would restore the Jewish
monarchy, drive out the Roman invaders, set up an independent Jewish state,
and inaugurate an era of peace, justice and prosperity (known as 'the
kingdom of God,) for the whole world. Jesus believed himself to be the
figure prophesied in the Hebrew Bible who would do all these things. He was
not a militarist and did not build up an army to fight the Romans, since he
believed that God would perform a great miracle to break the power of Rome.
This miracle would take place on the Mount of Olives, as prophesied in the
book of Zechariah. When this miracle did not occur, his mission had failed.
He had no intention of being crucified in order to save mankind from eternal
damnation by his sacrifice. He never regarded himself as a divine being, and
would have regarded such an idea as pagan and idolatrous, an infringement of
the first of the Ten Commandments.

3 The first followers of Jesus, under James and Peter, founded the Jerusalem
Church after Jesus's death. They were called the Nazarenes, and in all their
beliefs they were indistinguishable from the Pharisees, except that they
believed in the resurrection of Jesus, and that Jesus was still the promised
Messiah. They did not believe that Jesus was a divine person, but that, by a
miracle from God, he had been brought back to life after his death on the
cross, and would soon come back to complete his mission of overthrowing the
Romans and setting up the Messianic kingdom. The Nazarenes did not believe
that Jesus had abrogated the Jewish religion, or Torah. Having known Jesus
personally, they were aware that he had observed the Jewish religious law
all his life and had never rebelled against it. His sabbath cures were not
against Pharisee law. The Nazarenes were themselves very observant of Jewish
religious law. They practiced circumcision, did not eat the forbidden foods
and showed great respect to the Temple. The Nazarenes did not regard
themselves as belonging to a new religion; their religion was Judaism. They
set up synagogues of their own, but they also attended non-Nazarene
synagogues on occasion, and performed the same kind of worship in their own
synagogues as was practiced by all observant Jews. The Nazarenes became
suspicious of Paul when they heard that he was preaching that Jesus was the
founder of a new religion and that he had abrogated the Torah. After an
attempt to reach an understanding with Paul, the Nazarenes (i.e. the
Jerusalem Church under James and Peter) broke irrevocably with Paul and
disowned him.

4 Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity as a new religion which
developed away from both normal Judaism and the Nazarene variety of Judaism.
In this new religion, the Torah was abrogated as having had only temporary
validity. The central myth of the new religion was that of an atoning death
of a divine being. Belief in this sacrifice, and a mystical sharing of the
death of the deity, formed the only path to salvation. Paul derived this
religion from Hellenistic sources, chiefly by a fusion of concepts taken
from Gnosticism and concepts taken from the mystery religions, particularly
from that of Attis. The combination of these elements with features derived
from Judaism, particularly the incorporation of the Jewish scriptures,
reinterpreted to provide a background of sacred history for the new myth,
was unique; and Paul alone was the creator of this amalgam. Jesus himself
had no idea of it, and would have been amazed and shocked at the role
assigned to him by Paul as a suffering deity. Nor did Paul have any
predecessors among the Nazarenes though later mythography tried to assign
this role to Stephen, and modern scholars have discovered equally mythical
predecessors for Paul in a group called the 'Hellenists'. Paul, as the
personal begetter of the Christian myth, has never been given sufficient
credit for his originality. The reverence paid through the centuries to the
great Saint Paul has quite obscured the more colourful features of his
personality. Like many evangelical leaders, he was a compound of sincerity
and charlatanry. Evangelical leaders of his kind were common at this time in
the Greco-Roman world (e.g. Simon Magus, Apollonius of Tyana).

5 A source of information about Paul that has never been taken seriously
enough is a group called the Ebionites. Their writings were suppressed by
the Church, but some of their views and traditions were preserved in the
writings of their opponents, particularly in the huge treatise on Heresies
by Epiphanius. >From this it appears that the Ebionites had a very different
account to give of Paul's background and early life from that found in the
New Testament and fostered by Paul himself. The Ebionites testified that
Paul had no Pharisaic background or training; he was the son of Gentiles,
converted to Judaism in Tarsus, came to Jerusalem when an adult, and
attached himself to the High Priest as a henchman. Disappointed in his hopes
of advancement, he broke with the High Priest and sought fame by founding a
new religion. This account, while not reliable in all its details, is
substantially correct. It makes far more sense of all the puzzling and
contradictory features of the story of Paul than the account of the official
documents of the Church.

6 The Ebionites were stigmatized by the Church as heretics who failed to
understand that Jesus was a divine person and asserted instead that he was a
human being who came to inaugurate a new earthly age, as prophesied by the
Jewish prophets of the Bible. Moreover, the Ebionites refused to accept the
Church doctrine, derived from Paul, that Jesus abolished or abrogated the
Torah, the Jewish law. Instead, the Ebionites observed the Jewish law and
regarded themselves as Jews. The Ebionites were not heretics, as the Church
asserted, nor 're-Judaizers', as modern scholars call them, but the
authentic successors of the immediate disciples and followers of Jesus,
whose views and doctrines they faithfully transmitted, believing correctly
that they were derived from Jesus himself. They were the same group that had
earlier been called the Nazarenes, who were led by James and Peter, who had
known Jesus during his lifetime, and were in a far better position to know
his aims than Paul, who met Jesus only in dreams and visions. Thus the
opinion held by the Ebionites about Paul is of extraordinary interest and
deserves respectful consideration, instead of dismissal as 'scurrilous'
propaganda -- the reaction of Christian scholars from ancient to modern
times.

The above conspectus brings into sharper relief our question, was Paul a
Pharisee? It will be seen that this is not merely a matter of biography or
idle curiosity. It is bound up with the whole question of the origins of
Christianity. A tremendous amount depends on this question, for, if Paul was
not a Pharisee rooted in Jewish learning and tradition, but instead a
Hellenistic adventurer whose acquaintance with Judaism was recent and
shallow, the construction of myth and theology which he elaborated in his
letters becomes a very different thing. Instead of searching through his
system for signs of continuity with Judaism, we shall be able to recognize
it for what it is -- a brilliant concoction of Hellenism, superficially
connecting itself with the Jewish scriptures and tradition, by which it
seeks to give itself a history and an air of authority.

Christian attitudes towards the Pharisees and thus towards the picture of
Paul as a Pharisee have always been strikingly ambivalent. In the Gospels,
the Pharisees are attacked as hypocrites and would-be murderers: yet the
Gospels also convey an impression of the Pharisees as figures of immense
authority and dignity. This ambivalence reflects the attitude of
Christianity to Judaism itself; on the one hand, an allegedly outdated
ritualism, but on the other, a panorama of awesome history, a source of
authority and blessing, so that at all costs the Church must display itself
as the new Israel, the true Judaism. Thus Paul, as Pharisee, is the subject
of alternating attitudes. In the nineteenth century, when Jesus was regarded
(by Renan, for example) as a Romantic liberal, rebelling against the
authoritarianism of Pharisaic Judaism, Paul was deprecated as a typical
Pharisee, enveloping the sweet simplicity of Jesus in clouds of theology and
difficult formulations. In the twentieth century, when the concern is more
to discover the essential Jewishness of Christianity, the Pharisee aspect of
Paul is used to connect Pauline doctrines with the rabbinical writings --
again Paul is regarded as never losing his essential Pharisaism, but this is
now viewed as good, and as a means of rescuing Christianity from isolation
from Judaism. To be Jewish and yet not to be Jewish, this is the essential
dilemma of Christianity, and the figure of Paul, abjuring his alleged
Pharisaism as a hindrance to salvation and yet somehow clinging to it as a
guarantee of authority, is symbolic



SOURCE:

The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity, by Hyam Maccoby

ISBN: 0760707871 Publisher: Barnes & Noble Books

Format: Hardcover, 237pp Edition Description: Only From B&N Books

Pub. Date: February 1998 Edition Number: 7

Edition Description: Only From B&N Books


<***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
| "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
| the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God
| raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you
| whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
| which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in
| any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
| whereby we must be saved."
|
| -- Acts 4:10-12
Michael O'Neill
2004-07-29 14:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@yahoo.com
"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by
the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God
raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you
whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders,
which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in
any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men,
whereby we must be saved."
-- Acts 4:10-12
That's a response?

Stick to being a believer.

Informed discourse is beyond you.

M.
L Perez
2004-07-17 08:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by Riain Y. Barton
So then please tell us how "christianity"
explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word
of God and part of their holy
scriptures?
We tend to take it all with a pinch of salt, Riain.
Christians accept it as a myth,
a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be speaking
for the Godhead.
please dont assume to speak for "Christians"
I am a Christian and I dont worship a "godhead"
nor do I look at the OT as a "myth"
While I know the "I know you are
but what am I" school of debating
[IKYABWAI] still has some practitioners
it isn't very convincing to me.
#1.
How can you be a Christian and not worship the Godhead?
there is no godhead, only the Father
YHVH, the Son Jesus and their power to
manipulate the laws of physics, the holy spirit.
Two seperate beings and
their invisible power, no "godhead"
please learn
John 17:3-5
John 20:17
John 5:19
John 14:28
Mark 10:18
Matthew 26:39
John 8:17-18
Mark 13:32
Matthew 20:23
<shakes head>
Why does every guy with a point to make assume learning is the key to
right practise and right belief where religion is concerned?
perhaps because Christ says it is
John 17:3
Post by Michael O'Neill
But to your question.
I was raised to respect the Trinity as the Godhead, so perhaps we're
talking semantics here.
The Blessed Trinity is defined as being conposed of three devine persons
in the one God in my cathechism.
Its one of the Mysteries.
What does yours say?
all 15 of my Bibles mean the same things at those scriptures I cited... did
you read them? There is no "mystery" the 'trinity godhead' is a tradition of
man that God's Word The Bible does not support.
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
referred to Genesis.
The old testament as a whole was referred to by Riain in
My comments referred to Genesis specifically, and not to the OT as a
whole, as a myth. A Creation Myth. One among many.
How could you have missed this?
Genesis is not a myth either.
Its a creation myth.
Ask the pope if you don't believe me.
so the pope is now a higher authority than God, who instructed Moses to
write the account?!?
Patricia Heil
2004-07-18 00:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by Riain Y. Barton
So then please tell us how "christianity"
explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word
of God and part of their holy
scriptures?
We tend to take it all with a pinch of salt, Riain.
Christians accept it as a myth,
a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be speaking
for the Godhead.
please dont assume to speak for "Christians"
I am a Christian and I dont worship a "godhead"
nor do I look at the OT as a "myth"
While I know the "I know you are
but what am I" school of debating
[IKYABWAI] still has some practitioners
it isn't very convincing to me.
#1.
How can you be a Christian and not worship the Godhead?
there is no godhead, only the Father
YHVH, the Son Jesus and their power to
manipulate the laws of physics, the holy spirit.
Two seperate beings and
their invisible power, no "godhead"
please learn
John 17:3-5
John 20:17
John 5:19
John 14:28
Mark 10:18
Matthew 26:39
John 8:17-18
Mark 13:32
Matthew 20:23
<shakes head>
Why does every guy with a point to make assume learning is the key to
right practise and right belief where religion is concerned?
perhaps because Christ says it is
John 17:3
Post by Michael O'Neill
But to your question.
I was raised to respect the Trinity as the Godhead, so perhaps we're
talking semantics here.
The Blessed Trinity is defined as being conposed of three devine persons
in the one God in my cathechism.
Its one of the Mysteries.
What does yours say?
all 15 of my Bibles mean the same things at those scriptures I cited... did
you read them? There is no "mystery" the 'trinity godhead' is a tradition of
man that God's Word The Bible does not support.
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by L Perez
Post by Michael O'Neill
referred to Genesis.
The old testament as a whole was referred to by Riain in
My comments referred to Genesis specifically, and not to the OT as a
whole, as a myth. A Creation Myth. One among many.
How could you have missed this?
Genesis is not a myth either.
Its a creation myth.
Ask the pope if you don't believe me.
so the pope is now a higher authority than God, who instructed Moses to
write the account?!?
JESUS HAS NO AUTHORITY.
Matt Silberstein
2004-07-16 02:15:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by Riain Y. Barton
So then please tell us how "christianity"
explains it, since most christians
accept the "Old Testament" as the word
of God and part of their holy
scriptures?
We tend to take it all with a pinch of salt, Riain.
Christians accept it as a myth, a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be speaking for the Godhead.
And some see Genesis as a discussion of God's relationship with the
world, not a description of events. Genesis 1 tells us that God is not
the Sky, God is not the Ocean, God is not the Land, God made all of
those things.
Post by Michael O'Neill
After all, if you don't have a handle on...
"where did we come from and who created the world?"
...you're not going to survive long in the priest business.
You'd need to be pretty clueless not to see that straight off.
Post by Riain Y. Barton
And if you weren't so ignorant you
would understand that when G-d created
those things, time had not been created yet...
Time is a measure of change. If there is no change, then time has not
passed. Given that Genesis is a myth, but accepting its internal limits
for a second, its obvious that for God to have "done" anything, he must
have done so "in time".
Can you point out when "time" is stated to occur in Genesis?
Try:

"At the beginning of God's creating of the heavens and the earth, when
the earth was wild and waste, darkness over the face of Ocean,
rushing-spirit of God hovering over the face of the waters --
God said: Let there be light! And there was light.

(Fox translation)

Time, for the "heavens and the earth" begins then, but it was not the
beginning of time.
Post by Michael O'Neill
I don't
think its stated per se, but my recollection might be faulty. Not stated,
it is therefore assumed, since all things must occur "in" time for them
to be "real" to us, the inside of black holes notwithstanding.
Real to us? Sure. I don't think you are arguing for what you want to
argue for.
Post by Michael O'Neill
Post by Riain Y. Barton
But you refuse to study the following
Well, actually Riain, all you need to study to understand Genesis is how
to read. Its pretty straightforward on its most basic level, like a lot
of Old Testament Stuff. It was designed to instruct the semi-literate, so
verbal jousting is at a minimum.
Actually Genesis, like the rest of the Torah, is not all that simple.
It is a rather complex book with some complex structure. Is the 3 and
3 pattern of Genesis 1 obvious? Do you know the "pun" in Adam's name?
Do you know that the word for heaven is a combination of the word for
fire and for water? Have you considered why God says "it was good"
sometimes and not others? In fact, have you read a good translation? I
recommend Fox, it is considered the best available English translation
right now.

[snip]


--
Matt Silberstein

Do in order to understand.
Michael O'Neill
2004-07-29 14:49:22 UTC
Permalink
Matt Silberstein wrote:

<snip>
Post by Matt Silberstein
Post by Michael O'Neill
Christians accept it as a myth,
a story invented by priests to give
authority to their claim to be
speaking for the Godhead.
And some see Genesis as a discussion
of God's relationship with the
world, not a description of events.
Genesis 1 tells us that God is not
the Sky, God is not the Ocean, God
is not the Land, God made all of
those things.
Accepted.

<snip>
Post by Matt Silberstein
Post by Michael O'Neill
Time is a measure of change.
If there is no change, then time has not
passed. Given that Genesis is a
myth, but accepting its internal limits
for a second, its obvious that for
God to have "done" anything, he must
have done so "in time".
Can you point out when "time"
is stated to occur in Genesis?
"At the beginning of God's creating
of the heavens and the earth, when
the earth was wild and waste,
darkness over the face of Ocean,
rushing-spirit of God hovering
over the face of the waters --
God said: Let there be light!
And there was light.
(Fox translation)
Time, for the "heavens and the earth"
begins then, but it was not the
beginning of time.
That's not a logical assumption.
The translation you refer to confirms
that Heaven and Earth had already been
created when God said "let there be light!"
Post by Matt Silberstein
Post by Michael O'Neill
I don't
think its stated per se, but my
recollection might be faulty. Not stated,
it is therefore assumed, since all things
must occur "in" time for them
to be "real" to us, the inside
of black holes notwithstanding.
Real to us? Sure. I don't think you
are arguing for what you want to
argue for.
Its about time.

<snip>
Post by Matt Silberstein
Post by Michael O'Neill
Well, actually Riain, all you need
to study to understand Genesis is how
to read. Its pretty straightforward
on its most basic level, like a lot
of Old Testament Stuff. It was
designed to instruct the semi-literate, so
verbal jousting is at a minimum.
Actually Genesis, like the rest of the
Torah, is not all that simple.
It is a rather complex book with some
complex structure. Is the 3 and
3 pattern of Genesis 1 obvious?
Do you know the "pun" in Adam's name?
Do you know that the word for heaven
is a combination of the word for
fire and for water? Have you considered
why God says "it was good"
sometimes and not others? In fact,
have you read a good translation? I
recommend Fox, it is considered the
best available English translation
right now.
Is this relavant to belief, these clever word games and syntactical
observations. How does any one of them lead to someone becoming a better
person or folowing a moral path. You sound like someone who, asked to
comment on a Caravaggio or Raphael masterpiece, points out the
representations of the patron in some of the figures, yet ignores both
the message of the work itself and the wordless experience of the
picture.

<snip>

<smiles>

Do you know that many people used to extol the virtues of Georgian
Architecture in Dublin, marvelling at the subtle changes in window
heights and parapet heights, the changes in brickwork, the marvellous
doorways?

Speculative Building sometimes produces beauty, but its seldom intended.

M.
Riain Y. Barton
2004-07-15 22:11:40 UTC
Permalink
http://www.kabbalaonline.org/staticpages/glossary.asp

Nefesh
a generic term for the soul. More specifically, refers to the lowest
level of the five levels of the soul. Nefesh provides the life-force of the
body and is therefore sometimes referred to as the "vital soul." [ld3]
Accordingly, the nefesh also provides a person with the awareness of his
physical body and the physical world, the world of Asiya. Just as in the
world of Asiya, malchut is the dominant sefira, so too in the nefesh, which
corresponds to the world of Asiya, the attribute of malchut -- action -- is
the dominant characteristic of this aspect of the soul. The divine service
associated with the level of nefesh is acknowledgment of, and submission to,
the supreme authority of G-d, particularly in reference to the fulfillment
of the Commandments. It is therefore called "accepting the yoke of
Heaven" -- kabbalat ol malchut shamayim."




Nefesh
Habehamit
the "animal soul" of the Jew which originates in kelipat noga. It is
animalistic in the sense that its natural predisposition tends towards
self-indulgence and physical gratification, or at best self-preservation.
Its principal manifestation is in the left side of the heart. However, since
a person is endowed with an "intellectual soul" (nefesh hasichlit) and
furthermore with a divine soul (see nefesh ha'Elo-hit), he is able to
achieve a life of intellectual endeavor (by virtue of his nefesh hasichlit)
and even a life of sanctity (by virtue of his nefesh ha'Elo-hit). Then the
nefesh habehamit is called nefesh hachiyunit, the "vital soul," for it
fulfills only its primary function of enlivening the body without indulging
its animalistic desires.



Nefesh HaChiyunit
the "vital soul," an alternative name for the nefesh habehamit



Nefesh Ha'Elo-hit,
"the G-dly soul." The nefesh ha'Elo-hit is the "divine soul" that is
"part of G-d above." It is naturally altruistic and seeks to commune with
G-d. The nefesh ha'Elo-hit has ten powers that derive from the ten sefirot,
and three "garments" -- thought, speech and action that derive from Torah
and mitzvot. Its primary revelation is in the brain and it is manifested in
the right side of the heart.



Nefesh Hasichlit
the intellectual soul. The nefesh hasichlit is an intermediary level
between the nefesh ha'Elo-hit and the nefesh habehamit. Like the nefesh
habehamit it derives from kelipat noga, nevertheless, its origin is in the
higher aspect of kelipat noga. Although the nefesh hasichlit is human
intellect, it has the ability to appreciate and understand spiritual
matters, and is naturally drawn towards their intellectual aspects. Thus it
becomes the means whereby the nefesh ha'Elo-hit is able to refine and
elevate the nefesh habehamit (see Sefer Maamarim 5700, p. 92 ff).



Neshama
a generic term for the soul. More specifically, this refers to the
third level of the soul. The primary activity of neshama is in the
conceptual grasp of the intellect, as the verse states, "and the soul
(nishmat) from the Al-mighty gives them understanding" (Job 32:8.) The
neshama contemplates the manifestation of divine energy in the world of
Beriya. Just as in the world of Beriya the primary sefira is bina, so too in
the soul -- the primary activity is a function of bina -- understanding. The
world of Beriya is nascent divine energy. It is the notion of coming into
being from nothingness, rather than structured, quantified existence. Thus
one of the primary meditations of the neshama is the concept of continuous
creation (the coming-into-being) and sustenance of life and existence.



Ruach
a generic term for the soul. More specifically, it refers to the second
level of the soul. Ruach corresponds to the world of Yetzira. The primary
manifestation of ruach is in the emotions, just as the primary activity of
the six sefirot of Zeir Anpin (from chesed to yesod) is in the world of
Yetzira. In terms of divine service this entails arousing the emotions of
love and awe of G-d by contemplating the divine light that forms and
maintains the world of Yetzira, and by observing the tremendous
self-nullification of the angelic beings which inhabit it. Although the
intellect may be used extensively on this level of soul, nevertheless, the
primary focus of the intellect here is contemplation in order to arouse the
emotions.



Yetzer Hara
the inclination to evil -- a person's proclivity to disobey G-d's
commands, and thus harm himself.



Yetzer Tov
or yetzer haTov, the innate altruistic inclination to do good and to
fulfill G-d's will.




Yetzira
the "World of Formation" from the word tzura -- form or formation.
Yetzira is the third of the four immanent worlds, between Beriya, above it,
and Asiya below it. The primordial matter of Beriya is endowed with generic
form in Yetzira. It is the spiritual abode of the category of angels called
chayot, it corresponds to Ruach in the soul of man. The sefirot of Zeir
Anpin predominate in Yetzira. See also Worlds.




Asiya
"the World of Action." Asiya is the lowest of the five worlds, below
Yetzira. The generic form with which matter is endowed in the world of
Yetzira is particularized by the specific dimensions and limitations of the
world of Asiya. It is the spiritual abode of the category of angels called
ofanim, and corresponds to nefesh in the soul of man. The sefira of malchut
predominates in Asiya. See also Worlds.



Beriya
"the World of Creation." This is the world below Atzilut. Beriya is the
first world created ex nihilo, its "substance" is unformed primordial
matter. It is the spiritual abode of the category of angels called seraphim.
Although they are created beings, the seraphim are fully aware that their
entire existence is the life-force flowing to them from G-d. The primordial
matter of Beriya is endowed with form in Yetzira. Beriya corresponds to
Neshama in the soul of man. The sefira of bina predominates in Beriya. See
also Worlds.



"moshe" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
| "Susan Cohen" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<aOmJc.64872$***@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>...
|
| > > > It says 1 soul + 1 soul = 1 person
| >
| > A lie, it doesn't say that at all.
| > > >
| > > > 1 person has 2 souls.
| > > >
| > > > So why can't 1 God have 3 souls?
| > > >
| > >
| > > when did the defination of the trinity become god having three souls
| > >
| > > bob fred ed isnt this some type of blasphemy
| >
| > And here Morris just thought he would indulge in some "clever"
sophistry!
| >
| > Susan
|
| ***************
|
| The Bible says that it is fact:
|
| Genesis 2:7 says that man's soul comes from God breathing into man's
| nostrils.
|
| So God did not create the soul from nothing.
| God did not assemble the soul from already existing earthly elements.
|
| God breathed a part of Himself into us, His breath becoming our souls.
|
| God possessed it and then transferred it to us in Genesis 2:7.
|
| So when you claim that God does not have soul, you contradict Genesis
| 2:7.
|
| God's soul is infinite in measure, can be compartmentalized within
| Himself however He sees fit, and can be given to others in amounts as
| He sees fit.
|
| "Should he kill me, my death is not eternal for he can only affect my
| body, but my soul returns to G-d."
| - http://www.ou.org/chagim/yomkippur/ykoverview.htm
|
| - moshe
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