Discussion:
Catch 22
(too old to reply)
Lothar Frings
2018-10-10 16:25:03 UTC
Permalink
I'm a little confused.

For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".

Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-10-10 16:32:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
Catch 22 comes from Catch 22 by Joseph Heller. Failure
to have read this brilliant novel is a sign of a totally
inadequate and incomplete education. That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
Lothar Frings
2018-10-10 16:38:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
Catch 22 comes from Catch 22 by Joseph Heller. Failure
to have read this brilliant novel is a sign of a totally
inadequate and incomplete education.
"totally inadequate and incomplete" -
hey, I learned a new synonym for "German".
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
So, what would be the correct term for
a clever and most of the time unexpected
solution for a problem?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-10 17:36:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
Catch 22 comes from Catch 22 by Joseph Heller. Failure
to have read this brilliant novel is a sign of a totally
inadequate and incomplete education.
"totally inadequate and incomplete" -
hey, I learned a new synonym for "German".
I was going to say something along those lines. I think it's perfectly
OK for a German not to have read Catch 22. I'm sure that there are
brilliant novels in German that I haven't read or even heard of. On the
other hand if 'Arrison said he hadn't read Catch 22 I wouldn't be
surprised and would think it confirmed Maddie's opinion.
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
So, what would be the correct term for
a clever and most of the time unexpected
solution for a problem?
Serendipitous?
--
athel
Tak To
2018-10-10 19:16:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lothar Frings
[...]
So, what would be the correct term for
a clever and most of the time unexpected
solution for a problem?
Serendipitous?
"Serendipitous" implies that the solution is unexpected
by the inventor or (early) discoverer(s). If it is a common
implementation but one is surprised that it works at all,
then it is not serendipitous. In the latter case the
solution can be called a clever kludge in some circles.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
b***@aol.com
2018-10-10 19:56:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
Catch 22 comes from Catch 22 by Joseph Heller. Failure
to have read this brilliant novel is a sign of a totally
inadequate and incomplete education.
"totally inadequate and incomplete" -
hey, I learned a new synonym for "German".
I was going to say something along those lines. I think it's perfectly
OK for a German not to have read Catch 22. I'm sure that there are
brilliant novels in German that I haven't read or even heard of. On the
other hand if 'Arrison said he hadn't read Catch 22 I wouldn't be
surprised and would think it confirmed Maddie's opinion.
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
So, what would be the correct term for
a clever and most of the time unexpected
solution for a problem?
Serendipitous?
IMO, what makes a discovery serendipitous is its accidental, lucky nature,
i.e. a solution to a problem B is found researching a problem A.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
--
athel
Lothar Frings
2018-10-11 08:28:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
Catch 22 comes from Catch 22 by Joseph Heller. Failure
to have read this brilliant novel is a sign of a totally
inadequate and incomplete education.
"totally inadequate and incomplete" -
hey, I learned a new synonym for "German".
I was going to say something along those lines. I think it's perfectly
OK for a German not to have read Catch 22. I'm sure that there are
brilliant novels in German that I haven't read or even heard of. On the
other hand if 'Arrison said he hadn't read Catch 22 I wouldn't be
surprised and would think it confirmed Maddie's opinion.
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
So, what would be the correct term for
a clever and most of the time unexpected
solution for a problem?
Serendipitous?
That seems to translate to something
like "by chance", like the discovery
of penicilline. "Trick 17" means that
there is a problem, and suddenly someone
comes up with an idea to solve
(or bypass) it. "Trick 17" is often
used ironically with the affix
"with self-finessing" if it doesn't
work out in the end.
Horace LaBadie
2018-10-10 19:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
Catch 22 comes from Catch 22 by Joseph Heller. Failure
to have read this brilliant novel is a sign of a totally
inadequate and incomplete education.
"totally inadequate and incomplete" -
hey, I learned a new synonym for "German".
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
So, what would be the correct term for
a clever and most of the time unexpected
solution for a problem?
Horace Walpole called it serendip.
Jerry Friedman
2018-10-10 21:29:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
Catch 22 comes from Catch 22 by Joseph Heller. Failure
to have read this brilliant novel is a sign of a totally
inadequate and incomplete education.
"totally inadequate and incomplete" -
hey, I learned a new synonym for "German".
Good answer.
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
So, what would be the correct term for
a clever and most of the time unexpected
solution for a problem?
I don't know anything special beyond "a clever [ingenious, etc.]
solution". Sometimes you could say "a clever trick" or the like.
--
Jerry Friedman
Snidely
2018-10-12 07:16:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
Catch 22 comes from Catch 22 by Joseph Heller. Failure
to have read this brilliant novel is a sign of a totally
inadequate and incomplete education.
"totally inadequate and incomplete" -
hey, I learned a new synonym for "German".
Good answer.
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
So, what would be the correct term for
a clever and most of the time unexpected
solution for a problem?
I don't know anything special beyond "a clever [ingenious, etc.]
solution". Sometimes you could say "a clever trick" or the like.
MacGyver hasn't been by yet?

/dps
--
I have always been glad we weren't killed that night. I do not know
any particular reason, but I have always been glad.
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain
Quinn C
2018-10-10 21:42:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
The famous counterpart in German being the predicament of the Captain
of Köpenick, who couldn't get a job because he had no fixed address,
but couldn't rent a place because he had no job.
Post by Lothar Frings
So, what would be the correct term for
a clever and most of the time unexpected
solution for a problem?
The professionals came up with "duct-tape fix-all" here:
<https://www.proz.com/kudoz/german-to-english/idioms-maxims-sayings/3088712-trick-17-mit-selbst%C3%BCberlistung.html>

Wikipedia kind of suggests "System D", which is borrowed from French.

Both don't quite feel the same as "Trick 17", which is mainly a clever
hack. A lifehack. Maybe that.
--
Democracy means government by the uneducated,
while aristocracy means government by the badly educated.
-- G. K. Chesterton
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-11 05:11:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
The famous counterpart in German being the predicament of the Captain
of Köpenick, who couldn't get a job because he had no fixed address,
but couldn't rent a place because he had no job.
Quite a common problem for real people.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Lothar Frings
So, what would be the correct term for
a clever and most of the time unexpected
solution for a problem?
<https://www.proz.com/kudoz/german-to-english/idioms-maxims-sayings/3088712-trick-17-mit-selbst%C3%BCberlistung.html>
Wikipedia kind of suggests "System D", which is borrowed from French.
Both don't quite feel the same as "Trick 17", which is mainly a clever
hack. A lifehack. Maybe that.
--
athel
Peter Moylan
2018-10-11 05:38:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
That paradox is that the only way to be taken out of the war is
to be declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed from the
war on the grounds of insanity is by definition sane and cannot
therefore be removed.
The famous counterpart in German being the predicament of the
Captain of Köpenick, who couldn't get a job because he had no fixed
address, but couldn't rent a place because he had no job.
Quite a common problem for real people.
The university here had a problem with students from Hong Kong quite a
few years ago. The Australian consulate wouldn't give them a student
visa until they had a confirmed acceptance by the university, but the
university wasn't allowed to offer a place to a foreign student until he
or she had a student visa.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
J. J. Lodder
2018-10-11 09:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
The famous counterpart in German being the predicament of the Captain
of Köpenick, who couldn't get a job because he had no fixed address,
but couldn't rent a place because he had no job.
Quite a common problem for real people.
Indeed, for a friend who wanted to live somewhere near to you.
In France an electricity bill adressed to you at your adress
is generally accepted as 'preuve de domicile',
that is, proof that you live somewhere.
He couldn't open a bank account without having a 'preuve de domicile'.
However EDF only connects customers who already have a bank account,

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-11 09:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
The famous counterpart in German being the predicament of the Captain
of Köpenick, who couldn't get a job because he had no fixed address,
but couldn't rent a place because he had no job.
Quite a common problem for real people.
Indeed, for a friend who wanted to live somewhere near to you.
In France an electricity bill adressed to you at your adress
is generally accepted as 'preuve de domicile',
that is, proof that you live somewhere.
He couldn't open a bank account without having a 'preuve de domicile'.
However EDF only connects customers who already have a bank account,
I seem to have avoided that problem 32 years ago, possibly because I
went to the bank with the Directeur de l'Unité who certified that I was
OK. He didn't have an account there, however, as he had an account with
La Poste. He advised me to go to La Poste as well, but they had a rule
that you had to be resident in France for (I think) two years.
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2018-10-11 11:00:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
The famous counterpart in German being the predicament of the Captain
of Köpenick, who couldn't get a job because he had no fixed address,
but couldn't rent a place because he had no job.
Quite a common problem for real people.
Indeed, for a friend who wanted to live somewhere near to you.
In France an electricity bill adressed to you at your adress
is generally accepted as 'preuve de domicile',
that is, proof that you live somewhere.
He couldn't open a bank account without having a 'preuve de domicile'.
However EDF only connects customers who already have a bank account,
I seem to have avoided that problem 32 years ago, possibly because I
went to the bank with the Directeur de l'Unité who certified that I was
OK. He didn't have an account there, however, as he had an account with
La Poste. He advised me to go to La Poste as well, but they had a rule
that you had to be resident in France for (I think) two years.
The friend solved it by brute force and charm.
She walked into the bank of her choice,
asked to see the manager, put a bag of money on his desk,
and said I want to deposit this, please open an account for me.

That worked like a charm, then,

Jan
Peter Moylan
2018-10-11 09:52:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
That paradox is that the only way to be taken out of the war
is to be declared mad but only a sane person would want to
be removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed from
the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition sane and
cannot therefore be removed.
The famous counterpart in German being the predicament of the
Captain of Köpenick, who couldn't get a job because he had no
fixed address, but couldn't rent a place because he had no job.
Quite a common problem for real people.
Indeed, for a friend who wanted to live somewhere near to you. In
France an electricity bill adressed to you at your adress is
generally accepted as 'preuve de domicile', that is, proof that you
live somewhere. He couldn't open a bank account without having a
'preuve de domicile'. However EDF only connects customers who already
have a bank account,
When I went to the USA to live for a while I initially couldn't get a
bank account, couldn't get a telephone, etc., because I couldn't prove
my identity. All I had as photo ID were a passport and a NSW driver's
licence, and they weren't accepted anywhere. (I got the impression that
nobody knew what a passport was.) That wasn't a Catch 22, though,
because I could get a California ID card (which looks just like a
driver's license) without having to prove my identity, and after that
there was no problem.

Several weeks later I bought a car and went for a license test. The
first thing the examiner said to me was "How did you lose your license?"
I had to explain to him that the "license" that was on his record was
actually an ID card.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
J. J. Lodder
2018-10-11 11:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
That paradox is that the only way to be taken out of the war
is to be declared mad but only a sane person would want to
be removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed from
the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition sane and
cannot therefore be removed.
The famous counterpart in German being the predicament of the
Captain of Köpenick, who couldn't get a job because he had no
fixed address, but couldn't rent a place because he had no job.
Quite a common problem for real people.
Indeed, for a friend who wanted to live somewhere near to you. In
France an electricity bill adressed to you at your adress is
generally accepted as 'preuve de domicile', that is, proof that you
live somewhere. He couldn't open a bank account without having a
'preuve de domicile'. However EDF only connects customers who already
have a bank account,
When I went to the USA to live for a while I initially couldn't get a
bank account, couldn't get a telephone, etc., because I couldn't prove
my identity. All I had as photo ID were a passport and a NSW driver's
licence, and they weren't accepted anywhere. (I got the impression that
nobody knew what a passport was.) That wasn't a Catch 22, though,
because I could get a California ID card (which looks just like a
driver's license) without having to prove my identity, and after that
there was no problem.
Several weeks later I bought a car and went for a license test. The
first thing the examiner said to me was "How did you lose your license?"
I had to explain to him that the "license" that was on his record was
actually an ID card.
A Dutch friend of mine was lucky that way.
He was stopped by a trafic cop for having done something wrong.
He had to produce his (Dutch of course) drivers licence.
The cop asked: is this your drivers license?
(holding it like he would hold a dead rat by the tail)
He confirmed that yes indeed it is.
The cop let him go, finding it to difficult
to find out what parts of it to copy on a ticket,

Jan
Peter Moylan
2018-10-12 01:42:15 UTC
Permalink
A Dutch friend of mine was lucky that way. He was stopped by a trafic
cop for having done something wrong. He had to produce his (Dutch of
course) drivers licence. The cop asked: is this your drivers
license? (holding it like he would hold a dead rat by the tail) He
confirmed that yes indeed it is. The cop let him go, finding it to
difficult to find out what parts of it to copy on a ticket,
The Irish traffic cops are reportedly more diligent. I think they're
still searching for Prawo Jazdy.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
J. J. Lodder
2018-10-11 07:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
The famous counterpart in German being the predicament of the Captain
of Köpenick, who couldn't get a job because he had no fixed address,
but couldn't rent a place because he had no job.
Post by Lothar Frings
So, what would be the correct term for
a clever and most of the time unexpected
solution for a problem?
<https://www.proz.com/kudoz/german-to-english/idioms-maxims-sayings/3088712-tr
ick-17-mit-selbst%C3%BCberlistung.html>
Post by Quinn C
Wikipedia kind of suggests "System D", which is borrowed from French.
Both don't quite feel the same as "Trick 17", which is mainly a clever
hack. A lifehack. Maybe that.
Système D is a French DIY magazine. (since 1924!)
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syst%C3%A8me_D_(magazine)
It has a reputation for being clever,
sometimes a bit too clever,

Jan
Tak To
2018-10-11 14:37:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
The famous counterpart in German being the predicament of the Captain
of Köpenick, who couldn't get a job because he had no fixed address,
but couldn't rent a place because he had no job.
Post by Lothar Frings
So, what would be the correct term for
a clever and most of the time unexpected
solution for a problem?
<https://www.proz.com/kudoz/german-to-english/idioms-maxims-sayings/3088712-tr
ick-17-mit-selbst%C3%BCberlistung.html>
Post by Quinn C
Wikipedia kind of suggests "System D", which is borrowed from French.
Both don't quite feel the same as "Trick 17", which is mainly a clever
hack. A lifehack. Maybe that.
Système D is a French DIY magazine. (since 1924!)
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syst%C3%A8me_D_(magazine)
It has a reputation for being clever,
sometimes a bit too clever,
In the US there is the "Wordless Workshop" column. It
is the magazine which used to be called /Mechanix Illustrated/
and now /Today's Homeonwer/. Some are cleverer than others.
A sample:

Loading Image...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_hack
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
db
2018-10-11 09:38:26 UTC
Permalink
Am Mittwoch, 10. Oktober 2018 18:32:46 UTC+2 schrieb Madrigal
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time unexpected solution for a problem) was
"catch 22". But on one website I read that it comes from the novel of
the same name and means "a paradox in which the attempt to escape
makes escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
Catch 22 comes from Catch 22 by Joseph Heller. Failure to have read
this brilliant novel is a sign of a totally inadequate and incomplete
education.
"totally inadequate and incomplete" -
hey, I learned a new synonym for "German".
That paradox is that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be removed from the
war so anybody seeking to be removed from the war on the grounds of
insanity is by definition sane and cannot therefore be removed.
So, what would be the correct term for a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem?
Not all phrases have an equivalent in another language,
as here. That kind of trick would be described in
English by more than two words, like "he had a trick
up his sleeve" or the like.
--
Dieter Britz
RHDraney
2018-10-11 15:24:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by db
So, what would be the correct term for a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem?
Not all phrases have an equivalent in another language,
as here. That kind of trick would be described in
English by more than two words, like "he had a trick
up his sleeve" or the like.
On the internet the longer phrase is "this one weird trick"....r
Sam Plusnet
2018-10-11 23:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by db
Am Mittwoch, 10. Oktober 2018 18:32:46 UTC+2 schrieb Madrigal
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time unexpected solution for a problem) was
"catch 22". But on one website I read that it comes from the novel of
the same name and means "a paradox in which the attempt to escape
makes escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
Catch 22 comes from Catch 22 by Joseph Heller. Failure to have read
this brilliant novel is a sign of a totally inadequate and incomplete
education.
"totally inadequate and incomplete" -
hey, I learned a new synonym for "German".
That paradox is that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be removed from the
war so anybody seeking to be removed from the war on the grounds of
insanity is by definition sane and cannot therefore be removed.
So, what would be the correct term for a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem?
Not all phrases have an equivalent in another language,
as here. That kind of trick would be described in
English by more than two words, like "he had a trick
up his sleeve" or the like.
In BrE
"I have a cunning plan."
--
Sam Plusnet
Don P
2018-10-11 18:56:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Catch 22 comes from Catch 22 by Joseph Heller. Failure
to have read this brilliant novel is a sign of a totally
inadequate and incomplete education. . . .
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
So, what would be the correct term for
a clever and most of the time unexpected
solution for a problem?
"Lateral thinking" was popularized for such solutions about
50 years ago in the (many) books of Edward de Bono, who also
offered to teach lateral thinking. (cf. Wikipedia.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Peter Moylan
2018-10-12 01:47:03 UTC
Permalink
So, what would be the correct term for a clever and most of the
time unexpected solution for a problem?
"Lateral thinking" was popularized for such solutions about 50 years
ago in the (many) books of Edward de Bono, who also offered to teach
lateral thinking. (cf. Wikipedia.)
Some time after reading de Bono it occurred to me that many brilliant
ideas turn out to be obvious in hindsight. With that in mind, I proposed
to teach a course on hindsight.

Then I woke up.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
John Varela
2018-10-11 20:25:35 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 16:38:26 UTC, Lothar Frings
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
Catch 22 comes from Catch 22 by Joseph Heller. Failure
to have read this brilliant novel is a sign of a totally
inadequate and incomplete education.
"totally inadequate and incomplete" -
hey, I learned a new synonym for "German".
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
So, what would be the correct term for
a clever and most of the time unexpected
solution for a problem?
A "brilliancy" as used in chess, where it means a surprising and
brilliant move.
--
John Varela
J. J. Lodder
2018-10-11 21:02:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 16:38:26 UTC, Lothar Frings
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
Catch 22 comes from Catch 22 by Joseph Heller. Failure
to have read this brilliant novel is a sign of a totally
inadequate and incomplete education.
"totally inadequate and incomplete" -
hey, I learned a new synonym for "German".
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
So, what would be the correct term for
a clever and most of the time unexpected
solution for a problem?
A "brilliancy" as used in chess, where it means a surprising and
brilliant move.
Chess players call that ! What's ?

Jan
Ken Blake
2018-10-11 22:36:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 16:38:26 UTC, Lothar Frings
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
Catch 22 comes from Catch 22 by Joseph Heller. Failure
to have read this brilliant novel is a sign of a totally
inadequate and incomplete education.
"totally inadequate and incomplete" -
hey, I learned a new synonym for "German".
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
That paradox is
that the only way to be taken out of the war is to be
declared mad but only a sane person would want to be
removed from the war so anybody seeking to be removed
from the war on the grounds of insanity is by definition
sane and cannot therefore be removed.
So, what would be the correct term for
a clever and most of the time unexpected
solution for a problem?
A "brilliancy" as used in chess, where it means a surprising and
brilliant move.
Close, but no cigar. Actually it means a *game* containing such a
move.
Horace LaBadie
2018-10-10 16:43:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
Believe the novel.

"There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a
concern for one's own safety in the face of dangers that were real and
immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be
grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no
longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy
to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane, he had
to fly them. If he flew them, he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he
didn't want to, he was sane and had to."
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-10 16:52:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.

The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
J. J. Lodder
2018-10-10 18:29:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced.
It was Catch 18 in first version,
but Leon Uris's Mila 18 appeared in the meantime,
preempting the '18',
so the published version became Catch 22,

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-10 18:35:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced.
It was Catch 18 in first version,
but Leon Uris's Mila 18 appeared in the meantime,
preempting the '18',
so the published version became Catch 22,
Be that as it may, Catch 22 is a better name.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-10 18:38:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced.
It was Catch 18 in first version,
but Leon Uris's Mila 18 appeared in the meantime,
preempting the '18',
so the published version became Catch 22,
Be that as it may, Catch 22 is a better name.
And was that preemption in turn why why Douglas Adams settled on 42?
J. J. Lodder
2018-10-10 18:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced.
It was Catch 18 in first version,
but Leon Uris's Mila 18 appeared in the meantime,
preempting the '18',
so the published version became Catch 22,
Be that as it may, Catch 22 is a better name.
And was that preemption in turn why why Douglas Adams settled on 42?
What else could six by nine. be?

Jan
occam
2018-10-10 19:08:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced.
It was Catch 18 in first version,
but Leon Uris's Mila 18 appeared in the meantime,
preempting the '18',
so the published version became Catch 22,
Be that as it may, Catch 22 is a better name.
And was that preemption in turn why why Douglas Adams settled on 42?
What else could six by nine. be?
Are you stuck on base 13 again, Lodder?
J. J. Lodder
2018-10-10 20:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced.
It was Catch 18 in first version,
but Leon Uris's Mila 18 appeared in the meantime,
preempting the '18',
so the published version became Catch 22,
Be that as it may, Catch 22 is a better name.
And was that preemption in turn why why Douglas Adams settled on 42?
What else could six by nine. be?
Are you stuck on base 13 again, Lodder?
"I don't make jokes in base 13"

Jan
Sam Plusnet
2018-10-10 20:54:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced.
It was Catch 18 in first version,
but Leon Uris's Mila 18 appeared in the meantime,
preempting the '18',
so the published version became Catch 22,
Be that as it may, Catch 22 is a better name.
It makes for a catchy title.
--
Sam Plusnet
bill van
2018-10-11 05:29:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced.
It was Catch 18 in first version,
but Leon Uris's Mila 18 appeared in the meantime,
preempting the '18',
so the published version became Catch 22,
Be that as it may, Catch 22 is a better name.
It makes for a catchy title.
The novel was published in 1961 and the phrase is still swimming in the
mainstream of the language,
at least in North America. That's pretty good staying power.

bill
J. J. Lodder
2018-10-11 09:02:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill van
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced.
It was Catch 18 in first version,
but Leon Uris's Mila 18 appeared in the meantime,
preempting the '18',
so the published version became Catch 22,
Be that as it may, Catch 22 is a better name.
It makes for a catchy title.
The novel was published in 1961 and the phrase is still swimming in the
mainstream of the language,
at least in North America. That's pretty good staying power.
Catch 22 site:nl will give you a million hits.
Less people will have actually read the book.

So yes, Catch 22 has pretty good staying power
in some other parts of the world as well,

Jan
Peter Moylan
2018-10-11 09:58:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bill van
The novel was published in 1961 and the phrase is still swimming in the
mainstream of the language,
at least in North America. That's pretty good staying power.
Catch 22 site:nl will give you a million hits.
Less people will have actually read the book.
So yes, Catch 22 has pretty good staying power
in some other parts of the world as well,
It even gets a mention on my own web site.

<URL:http://www.pmoylan.org/cgi-bin/readinf.cmd?English/major.inf+text+33>

(Major Major is a name I gave to some software of mine. It does a
similar job to a Unix program called Majordomo.)
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-11 13:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bill van
The novel was published in 1961 and the phrase is still swimming in the
mainstream of the language,
at least in North America. That's pretty good staying power.
Catch 22 site:nl will give you a million hits.
Less people will have actually read the book.
So yes, Catch 22 has pretty good staying power
in some other parts of the world as well,
It even gets a mention on my own web site.
<URL:http://www.pmoylan.org/cgi-bin/readinf.cmd?English/major.inf+text+33>
(Major Major is a name I gave to some software of mine. It does a
similar job to a Unix program called Majordomo.)
Federico Mayor is, apart from being former Director-General of UNESCO,
a distinguished biochemist. His son is also called Federico Mayor and
is also a distinguished biochemist. I know the son quite well, and the
father a little bit. Both of them have segundos apellidos, of course,
which are different (Zaragoza and Menéndez respectively), but when it's
necessary to say which one I mean I tend to say Federico Mayor mayor
and Federico Mayor menor.

You've drawn attention to something I was planning to mention, that
there is a great deal more good stuff in Catch-22 than an explanation
of the name. Over the years I've had occasion to refer to Milo
Minderbinder, General (Lieutenant at the beginning of the book)
Scheisskopf (PTD obviously liked that name), who loved parades, the
Soldier in White, the general who liked falling bombs to look tidy in
the photos, and others.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-11 16:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bill van
The novel was published in 1961 and the phrase is still swimming in the
mainstream of the language,
at least in North America. That's pretty good staying power.
Catch 22 site:nl will give you a million hits.
Less people will have actually read the book.
So yes, Catch 22 has pretty good staying power
in some other parts of the world as well,
It even gets a mention on my own web site.
<URL:http://www.pmoylan.org/cgi-bin/readinf.cmd?English/major.inf+text+33>
(Major Major is a name I gave to some software of mine. It does a
similar job to a Unix program called Majordomo.)
Federico Mayor is, apart from being former Director-General of UNESCO,
a distinguished biochemist. His son is also called Federico Mayor and
is also a distinguished biochemist. I know the son quite well, and the
father a little bit. Both of them have segundos apellidos, of course,
which are different (Zaragoza and Menéndez respectively), but when it's
necessary to say which one I mean I tend to say Federico Mayor mayor
and Federico Mayor menor.
You've drawn attention to something I was planning to mention, that
there is a great deal more good stuff in Catch-22 than an explanation
of the name. Over the years I've had occasion to refer to Milo
Minderbinder, General (Lieutenant at the beginning of the book)
Scheisskopf (PTD obviously liked that name),
I don't remember when I read it -- I may not have had any German yet
(that started in 10th grade, 1965-6, and we wouldn't have been exposed
to words like that: besides the textbook, our reading was Storm's Immensee
and Kaestner's Emil und die Detektive (both in student editions with
glossary in the back)). My copy of Catch-22 is the dark blue paperback with
concentric or eccentric circles in thin black lines, which I think was the
first paperback issue.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
who loved parades, the
Soldier in White, the general who liked falling bombs to look tidy in
the photos, and others.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-11 16:34:20 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 9:50:12 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wro
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bill van
The novel was published in 1961 and the phrase is still swimming in t
he
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bill van
mainstream of the language,
at least in North America. That's pretty good staying power.
Catch 22 site:nl will give you a million hits.
Less people will have actually read the book.
So yes, Catch 22 has pretty good staying power
in some other parts of the world as well,
It even gets a mention on my own web site.
<URL:http://www.pmoylan.org/cgi-bin/readinf.cmd?English/major.inf+text+
33>
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
(Major Major is a name I gave to some software of mine. It does a
similar job to a Unix program called Majordomo.)
Federico Mayor is, apart from being former Director-General of UNESCO,
a distinguished biochemist. His son is also called Federico Mayor and
is also a distinguished biochemist. I know the son quite well, and the
father a little bit. Both of them have segundos apellidos, of course,
which are different (Zaragoza and Menéndez respectively), but when i
t's
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
necessary to say which one I mean I tend to say Federico Mayor mayor
and Federico Mayor menor.
You've drawn attention to something I was planning to mention, that
there is a great deal more good stuff in Catch-22 than an explanation
of the name. Over the years I've had occasion to refer to Milo
Minderbinder, General (Lieutenant at the beginning of the book)
Scheisskopf (PTD obviously liked that name),
I don't remember when I read it -- I may not have had any German yet
No, but it seems t have inspired your nickname for one of our esteemed
colleagues.
(that started in 10th grade, 1965-6, and we wouldn't have been exposed
to words like that: besides the textbook, our reading was Storm's Immensee
and Kaestner's Emil und die Detektive (both in student editions with
glossary in the back)).
WE tried to learn from that. It had a Fraktur typeface: did yours?
My copy of Catch-22 is the dark blue paperback with
concentric or eccentric circles in thin black lines, which I think was the
first paperback issue.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
who loved parades, the
Soldier in White, the general who liked falling bombs to look tidy in
the photos, and others.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-11 16:46:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 9:50:12 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wro
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bill van
The novel was published in 1961 and the phrase is still swimming in t
he
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bill van
mainstream of the language,
at least in North America. That's pretty good staying power.
Catch 22 site:nl will give you a million hits.
Less people will have actually read the book.
So yes, Catch 22 has pretty good staying power
in some other parts of the world as well,
It even gets a mention on my own web site.
<URL:http://www.pmoylan.org/cgi-bin/readinf.cmd?English/major.inf+text+
33>
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
(Major Major is a name I gave to some software of mine. It does a
similar job to a Unix program called Majordomo.)
Federico Mayor is, apart from being former Director-General of UNESCO,
a distinguished biochemist. His son is also called Federico Mayor and
is also a distinguished biochemist. I know the son quite well, and the
father a little bit. Both of them have segundos apellidos, of course,
which are different (Zaragoza and Menéndez respectively), but when i
t's
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
necessary to say which one I mean I tend to say Federico Mayor mayor
and Federico Mayor menor.
You've drawn attention to something I was planning to mention, that
there is a great deal more good stuff in Catch-22 than an explanation
of the name. Over the years I've had occasion to refer to Milo
Minderbinder, General (Lieutenant at the beginning of the book)
Scheisskopf (PTD obviously liked that name),
I don't remember when I read it -- I may not have had any German yet
No, but it seems t have inspired your nickname for one of our esteemed
colleagues.
(that started in 10th grade, 1965-6, and we wouldn't have been exposed
to words like that: besides the textbook, our reading was Storm's Immensee
and Kaestner's Emil und die Detektive (both in student editions with
glossary in the back)).
WE tried to learn from that. It had a Fraktur typeface: did yours?
No -- the Storm did.

There was an ad in the back for *Emil und die Drei Zwillinge*. I always
wanted to read that but could never find it.

Apparently there was a movie of "Emil and the Detectives" in the 1930s
that was one of Benjamin Britten's favorites. The description in his
biography makes it sound a lot darker than the novel was, or maybe we
had a child-friendly version.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
My copy of Catch-22 is the dark blue paperback with
concentric or eccentric circles in thin black lines, which I think was the
first paperback issue.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
who loved parades, the
Soldier in White, the general who liked falling bombs to look tidy in
the photos, and others.
Quinn C
2018-10-11 17:18:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 9:50:12 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wro
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bill van
The novel was published in 1961 and the phrase is still swimming in t
he
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bill van
mainstream of the language,
at least in North America. That's pretty good staying power.
Catch 22 site:nl will give you a million hits.
Less people will have actually read the book.
So yes, Catch 22 has pretty good staying power
in some other parts of the world as well,
It even gets a mention on my own web site.
<URL:http://www.pmoylan.org/cgi-bin/readinf.cmd?English/major.inf+text+
33>
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
(Major Major is a name I gave to some software of mine. It does a
similar job to a Unix program called Majordomo.)
Federico Mayor is, apart from being former Director-General of UNESCO,
a distinguished biochemist. His son is also called Federico Mayor and
is also a distinguished biochemist. I know the son quite well, and the
father a little bit. Both of them have segundos apellidos, of course,
which are different (Zaragoza and Menéndez respectively), but when i
t's
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
necessary to say which one I mean I tend to say Federico Mayor mayor
and Federico Mayor menor.
You've drawn attention to something I was planning to mention, that
there is a great deal more good stuff in Catch-22 than an explanation
of the name. Over the years I've had occasion to refer to Milo
Minderbinder, General (Lieutenant at the beginning of the book)
Scheisskopf (PTD obviously liked that name),
I don't remember when I read it -- I may not have had any German yet
No, but it seems t have inspired your nickname for one of our esteemed
colleagues.
(that started in 10th grade, 1965-6, and we wouldn't have been exposed
to words like that: besides the textbook, our reading was Storm's Immensee
and Kaestner's Emil und die Detektive (both in student editions with
glossary in the back)).
WE tried to learn from that. It had a Fraktur typeface: did yours?
No -- the Storm did.
There was an ad in the back for *Emil und die Drei Zwillinge*. I always
wanted to read that but could never find it.
Well, that shouldn't be a problem any more.
--
The only BS around here is butternut squash, one of the dozens of
varieties of squash I grow. I hope you like squash.
-- Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, S01E10
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-10-11 18:16:13 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:34:20 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 18:15:03 +0200, "Peter T. Daniels"
On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 9:50:12 AM UTC-4, Athel
On 2018-10-11 11:58:39 +0200, Peter Moylan
[]
book) Scheisskopf (PTD obviously liked that name),
I don't remember when I read it -- I may not have had any German yet
No, but it seems t have inspired your nickname for one of our esteemed
colleagues.
I'm glad to be one of PTD's contemptories.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-11 19:47:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:34:20 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 18:15:03 +0200, "Peter T. Daniels"
On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 9:50:12 AM UTC-4, Athel
On 2018-10-11 11:58:39 +0200, Peter Moylan
[]
book) Scheisskopf (PTD obviously liked that name),
I don't remember when I read it -- I may not have had any German yet
No, but it seems t have inspired your nickname for one of our esteemed
colleagues.
No, it didn't take any "inspiring" from an unremembered fictional
character. It's a common enough epithet.
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I'm glad to be one of PTD's contemptories.
Tony Cooper
2018-10-11 21:13:23 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 12:47:13 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:34:20 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 18:15:03 +0200, "Peter T. Daniels"
On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 9:50:12 AM UTC-4, Athel
On 2018-10-11 11:58:39 +0200, Peter Moylan
[]
book) Scheisskopf (PTD obviously liked that name),
I don't remember when I read it -- I may not have had any German yet
No, but it seems t have inspired your nickname for one of our esteemed
colleagues.
No, it didn't take any "inspiring" from an unremembered fictional
character. It's a common enough epithet.
And one that most grown-ups stopped using when they were in high
school.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-10-12 08:48:26 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 21:13:23 GMT, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 12:47:13 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:34:20 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 18:15:03 +0200, "Peter T. Daniels"
On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 9:50:12 AM UTC-4, Athel
On 2018-10-11 11:58:39 +0200, Peter Moylan
[]
book) Scheisskopf (PTD obviously liked that name),
I don't remember when I read it -- I may not have had any German yet
No, but it seems t have inspired your nickname for one of our
esteemed colleagues.
No, it didn't take any "inspiring" from an unremembered fictional
character. It's a common enough epithet.
And one that most grown-ups stopped using when they were in high
school.
I am mildly surprised at how PTD has managed to retain his naivety^w
youthful outlook over all these years.

(we don't need those dots in "naivety" do we?)
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Tony Cooper
2018-10-11 18:02:50 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 09:15:03 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't remember when I read it -- I may not have had any German yet
(that started in 10th grade, 1965-6, and we wouldn't have been exposed
to words like that: besides the textbook, our reading was Storm's Immensee
and Kaestner's Emil und die Detektive (both in student editions with
glossary in the back)). My copy of Catch-22 is the dark blue paperback with
concentric or eccentric circles in thin black lines, which I think was the
first paperback issue.
My Dell paperback copy has a dark blue cover (dark and stormy sky with
a bombardier's badge), and the publisher's page says "Two previous
Dell Editions" and "March 1985" and "Copyright 1955, 1961 Joseph
Heller".

This isn't the edition that I read first. I think my first copy was
too tattered to keep, and this is a replacement purchased in 1985. I
remember reading the book first on the Chicago El before I was married
in 1964.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Sam Plusnet
2018-10-11 20:58:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bill van
The novel was published in 1961 and the phrase is still swimming in the
mainstream of the language,
at least in North America. That's pretty good staying power.
Catch 22 site:nl will give you a million hits.
Less people will have actually read the book.
So yes, Catch 22 has pretty good staying power
in some other parts of the world as well,
It even gets a mention on my own web site.
<URL:http://www.pmoylan.org/cgi-bin/readinf.cmd?English/major.inf+text+33>
(Major Major is a name I gave to some software of mine. It does a
similar job to a Unix program called Majordomo.)
Federico Mayor is, apart from being former Director-General of UNESCO, a
distinguished biochemist. His son is also called Federico Mayor and is
also a distinguished biochemist. I know the son quite well, and the
father a little bit. Both of them have segundos apellidos, of course,
which are different (Zaragoza and Menéndez respectively), but when it's
necessary to say which one I mean I tend to say Federico Mayor mayor and
Federico Mayor menor.
You've drawn attention to something I was planning to mention, that
there is a great deal more good stuff in Catch-22 than an explanation of
the name. Over the years I've had occasion to refer to Milo
Minderbinder, General (Lieutenant at the beginning of the book)
Scheisskopf (PTD obviously liked that name), who loved parades, the
Soldier in White, the general who liked falling bombs to look tidy in
the photos, and others.
Not forgetting Major —— de Coverley
So terrifying that no one dares ask his first name.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Moylan
2018-10-11 05:01:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced.
It was Catch 18 in first version,
but Leon Uris's Mila 18 appeared in the meantime,
preempting the '18',
so the published version became Catch 22,
And it was a hyphenated Catch-22 in the book, IIRC. It lost the hyphen
once the phrase escaped into popular culture.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Tak To
2018-10-10 19:23:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
And a big turn-off for anyone who does not think war in
general (or the Vietnam War in particular) is (was) absurd.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-10 20:57:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
And a big turn-off for anyone who does not think war in
general (or the Vietnam War in particular) is (was) absurd.
? It was published years before there was a US war in Vietnam.
The so-so movie -- only the fourth one by Mike Nichols -- was indeed
a response to the Vietnam War, but that's not Heller's fault.
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Peter Percival
2018-10-11 11:09:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
J. J. Lodder
2018-10-11 11:34:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
The bombardier, in the glass nose, had a much more frightening view
of all the flak and fighters coming up at them than the pilot,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-11 11:57:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
Sorry, but there was no USAF in WWII. It was invented in 1947.
Peter Percival
2018-10-11 12:41:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
Sorry, but there was no USAF in WWII. It was invented in 1947.
My apologies!
Adam Funk
2018-10-11 14:54:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
Sorry, but there was no USAF in WWII. It was invented in 1947.
USAAF then!
--
Well, in this world of basic stereotyping, give a guy a big nose and
some weird hair and he is capable of anything. ---Frank Zappa
Mack A. Damia
2018-10-11 16:24:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
Sorry, but there was no USAF in WWII. It was invented in 1947.
USAAF then!
Wait for trump's USSF.

"United States Space Force"

Star wars are coming.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-11 16:32:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
Sorry, but there was no USAF in WWII. It was invented in 1947.
USAAF then!
No. The Army Air Corps.

At the Green-Wood Cemetery's annual Memorial Day band concert, veterans
of each of the five services are asked to stand when their tune comes
round in the Armed Forces Medley. WWII aviators stand for the Air Force
song ("Off we go, into the wild blue yonder," which had also been the
Army Air Corps song), not the Army song ("Over hill, over dale," which
has new words that no longer refer specifically to the artillery corps
whose song it was originally).

Apparently the Air Force already has a Space Corps, and that's what Trump
wants to hive off as the "Space Force." Fortunately, that's one thing he
can't try to do by Executive Order, and no one in Congress is open to
entertaining the idea.
Adam Funk
2018-10-12 11:07:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
Sorry, but there was no USAF in WWII. It was invented in 1947.
USAAF then!
No. The Army Air Corps.
Well, we're both right:

The predecessor organizations in the Army of today's Air Force are:
Aeronautical Division, Signal Corps (1 August 1907 – 18 July 1914)
Aviation Section, Signal Corps (18 July 1914 – 20 May 1918)
Division of Military Aeronautics (20 May 1918 to 24 May
1918)
U.S. Army Air Service (24 May 1918 to 2 July 1926)
U.S. Army Air Corps (2 July 1926 to 20 June 1941) and
U.S. Army Air Forces (20 June 1941 to 18 September 1947)

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force#Antecedents>

So it was the Army Air Corps when WW2 started elsewhere, but the Army
Air Forces by the time the US entered the war.
--
Men, there is no sacrifice greater than someone else's.
--- Skipper
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-10-11 13:24:14 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 12:09:35 +0100, Peter Percival
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.

A British "bombardier" is a soldier:
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier

A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery regiments,
equivalent to corporal.

Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an
early form of cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde
‘cannon’

The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-11 13:53:19 UTC
Permalink
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 12:09:35 +0100, Peter Percival
Post by Peter Percival
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 12:25:05 PM UTC-4, Lothar Frings
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his
editors;
Post by Peter Percival
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery regiments,
equivalent to corporal.
Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an
early form of cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde
‘cannon’
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
In France Bombardier is a Canadian company that makes aeroplanes.
--
athel
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-10-11 14:16:21 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 15:53:19 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 12:09:35 +0100, Peter Percival
Post by Peter Percival
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 12:25:05 PM UTC-4, Lothar Frings
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his
editors;
Post by Peter Percival
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery regiments,
equivalent to corporal.
Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an
early form of cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde
‘cannon’
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
In France Bombardier is a Canadian company that makes aeroplanes.
That company has premises in my corner of the UK just a few miles from
me.
The name is pronounced (sort of) Frenchly, whereas the military title
rhymes with "dear/deer" and has a different stress pattern.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Adam Funk
2018-10-11 14:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 15:53:19 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 12:09:35 +0100, Peter Percival
...
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Peter Percival
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery regiments,
equivalent to corporal.
Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an
early form of cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde
‘cannon’
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
In France Bombardier is a Canadian company that makes aeroplanes.
Including bombers?
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
That company has premises in my corner of the UK just a few miles from
me.
The name is pronounced (sort of) Frenchly, whereas the military title
rhymes with "dear/deer" and has a different stress pattern.
I think the company also makes trains (at least in the UK).
--
By filing this bug report, you have challenged my
my honor. Prepare to die!
--- Klingon Programmer's Guide
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-10-11 17:48:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 15:53:19 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 12:09:35 +0100, Peter Percival
...
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Peter Percival
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery regiments,
equivalent to corporal.
Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an
early form of cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde
‘cannon’
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
In France Bombardier is a Canadian company that makes aeroplanes.
Including bombers?
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
That company has premises in my corner of the UK just a few miles from
me.
The name is pronounced (sort of) Frenchly, whereas the military title
rhymes with "dear/deer" and has a different stress pattern.
I think the company also makes trains (at least in the UK).
It does indeed.
UK:
https://uk.bombardier.com/en/about-us/bombardier-in-country.html

Bombardier is the largest manufacturing company in Northern Ireland
and produces around 10 per cent of Northern Ireland's total
manufacturing exports. An extensive supply chain includes around 800
approved suppliers in the UK and Ireland, and a further 100 in
Europe. ...

Bombardier Transportation, the rail division of Bombardier, has
around 3,500 employees at eight sites and 23 service locations
across the UK. ... Bombardier’s Derby site, which has produced a
significant proportion of the UK’s latest technology rolling stock
for both mainline train operations and London Underground, forms
part of the world’s largest cluster of rail companies. The cluster
comprises a supply base of approximately 100 companies, collectively
employing around 25,000 people and contributing around £2.6bn to the
local and national economies.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-11 16:17:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery regiments,
equivalent to corporal.
Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an
early form of cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde
‘cannon’
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
Silly language.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
In France Bombardier is a Canadian company that makes aeroplanes.
And subway cars. The MTA won't be ordering from them again any time soon.
Their NYC subway cars are the most trouble-prone model they ever had.
Sam Plusnet
2018-10-11 21:19:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery regiments,
equivalent to corporal.
Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an
early form of cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde
‘cannon’
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
Silly language.
Silly response.
The word "Bombardier" had been in use in BrE since (as Peter said) the
16th Century & it had a firmly established meaning.

When a new term was required in the 20th Century for an entirely new
activity, referring to the person who aimed the bombs as a "bomb aimer"
wasn't much of a leap.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-12 05:23:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery regiments,
equivalent to corporal.
Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an
early form of cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde
‘cannon’
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
Silly language.
Silly response.
The word "Bombardier" had been in use in BrE since (as Peter said) the
16th Century & it had a firmly established meaning.
When a new term was required in the 20th Century for an entirely new
activity, referring to the person who aimed the bombs as a "bomb aimer"
wasn't much of a leap.
You don't "aim" a bomb. You drop it in the general vicinity of something
you want to destroy.

If it came out of the barrel of something, you could aim it -- Big Bertha,
a bazooka, a cannon -- but their projectiles aren't called "bombs."
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-12 06:51:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery regiments,
equivalent to corporal.
Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an
early form of cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde
‘cannon’
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
Silly language.
Silly response.
The word "Bombardier" had been in use in BrE since (as Peter said) the>
16th Century & it had a firmly established meaning.
When a new term was required in the 20th Century for an entirely new>
activity, referring to the person who aimed the bombs as a "bomb
aimer"> wasn't much of a leap.
You don't "aim" a bomb. You drop it in the general vicinity of
somethingyou want to destroy.
Flown a lot of bombing missions, have you? I hadn't realized you were
an expert.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
If it came out of the barrel of something, you could aim it -- Big Bertha,
a bazooka, a cannon -- but their projectiles aren't called "bombs."
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2018-10-12 08:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery regiments,
equivalent to corporal.
Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an
early form of cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde
'cannon'
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
Silly language.
Silly response.
The word "Bombardier" had been in use in BrE since (as Peter said) the>
16th Century & it had a firmly established meaning.
When a new term was required in the 20th Century for an entirely new>
activity, referring to the person who aimed the bombs as a "bomb
aimer"> wasn't much of a leap.
You don't "aim" a bomb. You drop it in the general vicinity of
somethingyou want to destroy.
Flown a lot of bombing missions, have you? I hadn't realized you were
an expert.
How could you have missed it, after all those years here?
We all know by now that PTD is the universal expert on everything,

Jan
J. J. Lodder
2018-10-12 08:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery regiments,
equivalent to corporal.
Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an
early form of cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde
'cannon'
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
Silly language.
Silly response.
The word "Bombardier" had been in use in BrE since (as Peter said) the
16th Century & it had a firmly established meaning.
When a new term was required in the 20th Century for an entirely new
activity, referring to the person who aimed the bombs as a "bomb aimer"
wasn't much of a leap.
You don't "aim" a bomb. You drop it in the general vicinity of something
you want to destroy.
If it came out of the barrel of something, you could aim it -- Big Bertha,
a bazooka, a cannon -- but their projectiles aren't called "bombs."
What do you think a bombsight is for?

Jan
Snidely
2018-10-12 08:31:35 UTC
Permalink
On Friday or thereabouts, J. J. Lodder asked ...
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery regiments,
equivalent to corporal.
Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an
early form of cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde
'cannon'
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
Silly language.
Silly response.
The word "Bombardier" had been in use in BrE since (as Peter said) the
16th Century & it had a firmly established meaning.
When a new term was required in the 20th Century for an entirely new
activity, referring to the person who aimed the bombs as a "bomb aimer"
wasn't much of a leap.
You don't "aim" a bomb. You drop it in the general vicinity of something
you want to destroy.
If it came out of the barrel of something, you could aim it -- Big Bertha,
a bazooka, a cannon -- but their projectiles aren't called "bombs."
What do you think a bombsight is for?
For picking a target the bombs might fall near. The Norden bombsight
included an analog (and mechanical) computer to account for the plane's
motion relative to the ground, but the scatter pattern was pretty bad,
and sometimes the bombers couldn't even hit anywhere within a railyard,
much less a factory.

The most accurate bombing seems to have been by dive bombers, releasing
1 bomb at a time at a point rather close to the target.

The German's considered the USAAF Ploesti raid a failure because of the
large number of bombers lost (B-24s did that mission ... bigger load,
less tolerance of damage) and because so little of the refineries were
damaged.

/dps
--
Trust, but verify.
J. J. Lodder
2018-10-12 10:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
On Friday or thereabouts, J. J. Lodder asked ...
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery regiments,
equivalent to corporal.
Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an
early form of cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde
'cannon'
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
Silly language.
Silly response.
The word "Bombardier" had been in use in BrE since (as Peter said) the
16th Century & it had a firmly established meaning.
When a new term was required in the 20th Century for an entirely new
activity, referring to the person who aimed the bombs as a "bomb aimer"
wasn't much of a leap.
You don't "aim" a bomb. You drop it in the general vicinity of something
you want to destroy.
If it came out of the barrel of something, you could aim it -- Big Bertha,
a bazooka, a cannon -- but their projectiles aren't called "bombs."
What do you think a bombsight is for?
For picking a target the bombs might fall near. The Norden bombsight
included an analog (and mechanical) computer to account for the plane's
motion relative to the ground, but the scatter pattern was pretty bad,
and sometimes the bombers couldn't even hit anywhere within a railyard,
much less a factory.
Under ideal conditions the Norden bombsight
could reach a CEP of better than 100 m from high aaltitude.
Later versions also included an autopilot coupled to the sight,
so for a some time during the bomb run the bombardier
would be the one who was flying the plane.
Post by Snidely
The most accurate bombing seems to have been by dive bombers, releasing
1 bomb at a time at a point rather close to the target.
The Stuka was an important weapon early in the Blitzkrieg.
It was too slow to be used without having air superiority,
so it was phased out.
Post by Snidely
The German's considered the USAAF Ploesti raid a failure because of the
large number of bombers lost (B-24s did that mission ... bigger load,
less tolerance of damage) and because so little of the refineries were
damaged.
The bombing of Germany was a disaster throughout.
It killed mostly women and children,
and had little effect on war production.
In fact, the bombings actually increased war production,
by destroying non-essential sectors of the economy.
And that's for the USAAF, which at least achieved some accuracy.
Bomber Command was far worse,

Jan
--
At the end of the second world war, I was the director for overall
effects of the United States strategic bombing survey - Usbus, as it was
known. I led a large professional economic staff in assessment of the
industrial and military effects of the bombing of Germany. The strategic
bombing of German industry, transportation and cities, was gravely
disappointing. Attacks on factories that made such seemingly crucial
components as ball bearings, and even attacks on aircraft plants, were
sadly useless. With plant and machinery relocation and more determined
management, fighter aircraft production actually increased in early 1944
after major bombing. In the cities, the random cruelty and death
inflicted from the sky had no appreciable effect on war production or
the war. (J. K. Galbraith, quoted from
<https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jul/15/usa.iraq> )
charles
2018-10-12 09:25:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 9:53:18 AM UTC-4, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions. A British "bombardier" is
a soldier: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery
regiments, equivalent to corporal. Origin Mid 16th century
(denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an early form of
cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde cannon‘ The BrE
equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
Silly language.
Silly response. The word "Bombardier" had been in use in BrE since (as
Peter said) the 16th Century & it had a firmly established meaning.
When a new term was required in the 20th Century for an entirely new
activity, referring to the person who aimed the bombs as a "bomb aimer"
wasn't much of a leap.
You don't "aim" a bomb. You drop it in the general vicinity of something
you want to destroy.
No - think of the Dambusters, for a start. If you know how the bomb falls
from the aircraft you know when to release it to hit the required point.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Snidely
2018-10-12 11:26:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 9:53:18 AM UTC-4, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions. A British "bombardier" is
a soldier: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery
regiments, equivalent to corporal. Origin Mid 16th century
(denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an early form of
cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde cannon‘ The BrE
equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
Silly language.
Silly response. The word "Bombardier" had been in use in BrE since (as
Peter said) the 16th Century & it had a firmly established meaning.
When a new term was required in the 20th Century for an entirely new
activity, referring to the person who aimed the bombs as a "bomb aimer"
wasn't much of a leap.
You don't "aim" a bomb. You drop it in the general vicinity of something
you want to destroy.
No - think of the Dambusters, for a start. If you know how the bomb falls
from the aircraft you know when to release it to hit the required point.
That was dropping a single bomb per plane, right? Or maybe two? And
at an altitude where you could read name badges on the lorry drivers?

/dps
--
Who, me? And what lacuna?
Janet
2018-10-12 12:21:19 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@snitoo>, ***@gmail.com
says...
Post by Snidely
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 9:53:18 AM UTC-4, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions. A British "bombardier" is
a soldier: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery
regiments, equivalent to corporal. Origin Mid 16th century
(denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an early form of
cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde cannon? The BrE
equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
Silly language.
Silly response. The word "Bombardier" had been in use in BrE since (as
Peter said) the 16th Century & it had a firmly established meaning.
When a new term was required in the 20th Century for an entirely new
activity, referring to the person who aimed the bombs as a "bomb aimer"
wasn't much of a leap.
You don't "aim" a bomb. You drop it in the general vicinity of something
you want to destroy.
No - think of the Dambusters, for a start. If you know how the bomb falls
from the aircraft you know when to release it to hit the required point.
That was dropping a single bomb per plane, right? Or maybe two? And
at an altitude where you could read name badges on the lorry drivers?
The dambusters raid was at night. They were flying in darkness at 250
mph at an altitude of 60ft above the water.


Janet.
J. J. Lodder
2018-10-12 13:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Snidely
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 9:53:18 AM UTC-4, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions. A British "bombardier" is
a soldier: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery
regiments, equivalent to corporal. Origin Mid 16th century
(denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an early form of
cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde ?cannon? The BrE
equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
Silly language.
Silly response. The word "Bombardier" had been in use in BrE since (as
Peter said) the 16th Century & it had a firmly established meaning.
When a new term was required in the 20th Century for an entirely new
activity, referring to the person who aimed the bombs as a "bomb aimer"
wasn't much of a leap.
You don't "aim" a bomb. You drop it in the general vicinity of something
you want to destroy.
No - think of the Dambusters, for a start. If you know how the bomb falls
from the aircraft you know when to release it to hit the required point.
That was dropping a single bomb per plane, right? Or maybe two? And
at an altitude where you could read name badges on the lorry drivers?
The dambusters raid was at night. They were flying in darkness at 250
mph at an altitude of 60ft above the water.
Indeed, no aiming involved.
All you need to do is fly over the lake lengthwise.
Just release when you see a dam coming,
and the bomb will skip over the water
until it hits the dam,

Jan
Janet
2018-10-12 11:57:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery regiments,
equivalent to corporal.
Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an
early form of cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde
?cannon?
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
Silly language.
Silly response.
The word "Bombardier" had been in use in BrE since (as Peter said) the
16th Century & it had a firmly established meaning.
When a new term was required in the 20th Century for an entirely new
activity, referring to the person who aimed the bombs as a "bomb aimer"
wasn't much of a leap.
You don't "aim" a bomb. You drop it in the general vicinity of something
you want to destroy.
That was the American approach in WW2.

Both the Luftwaffe and RAF achieved night-time precision bombing in
WW2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_bombing

"The Luftwaffe addressed this issue first by using a series of radio
beams to direct aircraft and indicate when to drop bombs. Several
different techniques were tried, including Knickebein, X-Gerät and Y-
Gerät (Wotan). These provided impressive accuracy?British post-raid
analysis showed that the vast majority of the bombs dropped could be
placed within 100 yards (91 m) of the midline of the beam, spread along
it a few hundred yards around the target point, even in pitch-dark
conditions at a range of several hundred miles. But the systems fatally
depended on accurate radio reception, and the British invented the first
electronic warfare techniques to successfully counter this weapon in the
'Battle of the Beams'

The RAF later developed their own beam guidance techniques, such as GEE
and Oboe. These systems could provide an accuracy of about 100 yards
radius, and were supplemented by the downward-looking radar system H2S.
The British development of specialist 'Earthquake' bombs (which needed
to be dropped very accurately) led to the development of supporting
aiming techniques such as SABS and the Pathfinder Force. Specialist
units such as 617 squadron were able to use these and other techniques
to achieve remarkable precision, such as the bombing of the Michelin
factory at Clermont-Ferrand in France, where they were required to
destroy the workshops but leave the canteen next to them standing.

This development process, driven by the need to bomb in unsighted
conditions, meant that by the end of World War II, unguided RAF bombs
could be predictably delivered within 25 yards of a target from 15,000
feet height, and precisely on it from low level."

Different story for the US bombers

"For the U.S. Army Air Forces, daylight bombing was normal based upon
box formations for defence from fighters. Bombing was coordinated
through a lead aircraft but although still nominally precision bombing
(as opposed to the area bombing carried out by RAF Bomber Command) the
result of bombing from high level was still spread over an area. Before
the war on practice ranges, some USAAF crews were able to produce very
accurate results, but over Europe with weather and German fighters and
anti-aircraft guns and the limited training for new crews this level of
accuracy was impossible to reproduce. The US defined the target area as
being a 1,000 ft (300 m) radius circle around the target point - for the
majority of USAAF attacks only about 20% of the bombs dropped struck in
this area."

Janet.
J. J. Lodder
2018-10-12 13:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery
regiments, equivalent to corporal.
Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard,
an early form of cannon): from French, from Old French
bombarde ?cannon?
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
Silly language.
Silly response.
The word "Bombardier" had been in use in BrE since (as Peter said) the
16th Century & it had a firmly established meaning.
When a new term was required in the 20th Century for an entirely new
activity, referring to the person who aimed the bombs as a "bomb aimer"
wasn't much of a leap.
You don't "aim" a bomb. You drop it in the general vicinity of something
you want to destroy.
That was the American approach in WW2.
Completely false.
Post by Janet
Both the Luftwaffe and RAF achieved night-time precision bombing in
WW2.
For some values of 'precision'.
Post by Janet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_bombing
"The Luftwaffe addressed this issue first by using a series of radio
beams to direct aircraft and indicate when to drop bombs. Several
different techniques were tried, including Knickebein, X-Gerät and Y-
Gerät (Wotan). These provided impressive accuracy?British post-raid
analysis showed that the vast majority of the bombs dropped could be
placed within 100 yards (91 m) of the midline of the beam, spread along
it a few hundred yards around the target point, even in pitch-dark
conditions at a range of several hundred miles. But the systems fatally
depended on accurate radio reception, and the British invented the first
electronic warfare techniques to successfully counter this weapon in the
'Battle of the Beams'
The RAF later developed their own beam guidance techniques, such as GEE
and Oboe. These systems could provide an accuracy of about 100 yards
radius, and were supplemented by the downward-looking radar system H2S.
The British development of specialist 'Earthquake' bombs (which needed
to be dropped very accurately) led to the development of supporting
aiming techniques such as SABS and the Pathfinder Force. Specialist
units such as 617 squadron were able to use these and other techniques
to achieve remarkable precision, such as the bombing of the Michelin
factory at Clermont-Ferrand in France, where they were required to
destroy the workshops but leave the canteen next to them standing.
This development process, driven by the need to bomb in unsighted
conditions, meant that by the end of World War II, unguided RAF bombs
could be predictably delivered within 25 yards of a target from 15,000
feet height, and precisely on it from low level."
Different story for the US bombers
"For the U.S. Army Air Forces, daylight bombing was normal based upon
box formations for defence from fighters. Bombing was coordinated
through a lead aircraft but although still nominally precision bombing
(as opposed to the area bombing carried out by RAF Bomber Command) the
result of bombing from high level was still spread over an area. Before
the war on practice ranges, some USAAF crews were able to produce very
accurate results, but over Europe with weather and German fighters and
anti-aircraft guns and the limited training for new crews this level of
accuracy was impossible to reproduce. The US defined the target area as
being a 1,000 ft (300 m) radius circle around the target point - for the
majority of USAAF attacks only about 20% of the bombs dropped struck in
this area."
If you believe all the propaganda.
In practice Bomber Commands night bombing was so poor,
typically with a CEP of 5 miles,
that carpet bombing was the only thing
that they could do reliably.

Arthur 'Bomber' Harris admitted as much,
by claiming that he was engaged in 'morale bombardment'.
His target was not factories, nor specifically the workers in them.
He was indiscriminately killing as many civilians as he could,
claiming that this would in some unspecified way
force the collapse of the regime.
Nowadays we call this kind of thing terrorism.

The opposite of course happened
Goebbels c.s. could with good justification say:
See? Those terrorists are out to kill us all.
Our only option is to fight to the last man.

Britain has nothing to be proud of here,

Jan

PS This wiki page must have been written by a Brit.
The denigration of the USAAF is completely unjustified.
While Harris achieved very little of practical use
it was the USAAF that destroyed the Luftwaffe.
See for example
<https://www.amazon.com/dp/0811706591/?tag=dcglabs-20>

J. J. Lodder
2018-10-11 18:01:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 12:09:35 +0100, Peter Percival
Post by Peter Percival
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 12:25:05 PM UTC-4, Lothar Frings
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his
editors;
Post by Peter Percival
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery regiments,
equivalent to corporal.
Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an
early form of cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde
'cannon'
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
In France Bombardier is a Canadian company that makes aeroplanes.
And even famous ones.
Quite near to you there was a nutter
who was that fond of seeing the Bombadiers fly
that he deliberately set forest fires,
just for the fun of seeing the Bombardier plane
water-bomb them,

Jan

<https://aviation-times.aero/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Bombardier_415_0
2.jpg>
John Varela
2018-10-11 20:57:59 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 13:53:19 UTC, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 12:09:35 +0100, Peter Percival
Post by Peter Percival
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 12:25:05 PM UTC-4, Lothar Frings
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his
editors;
Post by Peter Percival
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery regiments,
equivalent to corporal.
Origin
Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a bombard, an
early form of cannon): from French, from Old French bombarde
cannon
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
Sort of like our "locomotive engineer" is your "engine driver".
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
In France Bombardier is a Canadian company that makes aeroplanes.
Also in North America.
--
John Varela
HVS
2018-10-11 22:02:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 13:53:19 UTC, Athel Cornish-Bowden
-snip -
Post by John Varela
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
In France Bombardier is a Canadian company that makes aeroplanes.
Also in North America.
Also in the UK, but the term for the military person and the company
differ in pronunciation.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-10-12 08:50:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by HVS
Post by John Varela
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 13:53:19 UTC, Athel Cornish-Bowden
-snip -
Post by John Varela
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
In France Bombardier is a Canadian company that makes aeroplanes.
Also in North America.
Also in the UK, but the term for the military person and the company
differ in pronunciation.
Also a beer from Charles Wells.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
HVS
2018-10-12 12:20:36 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 08:50:20 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 22:02:42 GMT, HVS
Post by HVS
Post by John Varela
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 13:53:19 UTC, Athel Cornish-Bowden
-snip -
Post by John Varela
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
In France Bombardier is a Canadian company that makes
aeroplanes.
Post by HVS
Post by John Varela
Also in North America.
Also in the UK, but the term for the military person and the
company
Post by HVS
differ in pronunciation.
Also a beer from Charles Wells.
Indeed; quite a good point, that. (Pronounced like the military
person, of course, rather than the company.)
Mark Brader
2018-10-11 22:12:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
In France Bombardier is a Canadian company that makes aeroplanes.
Also in North America.
Where do they make the trains and the snowmobiles, then? :-)

Loading Image...

(For the second edition, they changed the subtitle:

Loading Image...

)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto This is a signature antibody. Please
***@vex.net remove any viruses from your signature.
charles
2018-10-12 09:22:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 13:53:19 UTC, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On 2018-10-11 15:24:14 +0200, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 12:09:35 +0100, Peter Percival
Post by Peter Percival
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 12:25:05 PM UTC-4, Lothar Frings
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website I read that it comes from the
novel of the same name and means "a paradox in which the attempt
to escape makes escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe? What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his
editors;
Post by Peter Percival
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title
of the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely
popular and is one of the great comic treasures of American
literature, as well as stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so
that he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be
discharged proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
In BrE a bombardier doesn't fly missions.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bombardier
A rank of non-commissioned officer in certain artillery
regiments, equivalent to corporal.
Origin Mid 16th century (denoting a soldier in charge of a
bombard, an early form of cannon): from French, from Old French
bombarde cannon
The BrE equivalent of an AmE "bombardier" is a "bomb aimer".
Sort of like our "locomotive engineer" is your "engine driver".
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
In France Bombardier is a Canadian company that makes aeroplanes.
Also in North America.
and in the UK, NI specifically
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-11 14:49:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
Each time Yossarian reached the maximum they increased the maximum.
--
athel
John Varela
2018-10-11 20:55:23 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 11:09:35 UTC, Peter Percival
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
WWII: USAAF
--
John Varela
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-12 04:58:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 11:09:35 UTC, Peter Percival
Post by Peter Percival
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
The expression was indeed invented by Joseph Heller -- and his editors;
they spent some time discussing what to call it -- and is the title of
the novel in which it was introduced. The novel was hugely popular and
is one of the great comic treasures of American literature, as well as
stressing the absurdity of war in general.
The original Catch-22 is that a soldier pretended to be insane so that
he would be discharged from the army, but his desire to be discharged
proved that he was sane.
Specifically, a USAF bombardier seeking to fly no more missions.
WWII: USAAF
Still wrong. "Killfilers" insist on making bonehead mistakes.
Horace LaBadie
2018-10-10 21:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lothar Frings
I'm a little confused.
For decades I thought the English
version of the German "Trick 17"
(a clever and most of the time
unexpected solution for a problem)
was "catch 22". But on one website
I read that it comes from the novel
of the same name and means "a paradox
in which the attempt to escape makes
escape impossible".
Presumably spurred by this:
<https://www.gocomics.com/barneyandclyde/2018/10/01>
Post by Lothar Frings
Now - what is one to believe?
What does it really mean?
Mark Brader
2018-10-10 22:59:09 UTC
Permalink
I read that [Catch-22] comes from the novel of the same name and means
"a paradox in which the attempt to escape makes escape impossible".
Not exactly a paradox. It's a requirement (for something you want)
that cannot possibly be satisfied. In the novel, the rule is that
you can get out of the army if you're crazy; but if you claim that
you want to get out of the army, this proves you're not crazy.

(The novel never explains where the "22" comes from, but presumably
we are to assume that it's section 22 of the army regulations.)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "No weapons of any kind are allowed on
***@vex.net | White Sands Missile Range" -- U.S. Army

My text in this article is in the public domain.
bill van
2018-10-11 05:40:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
I read that [Catch-22] comes from the novel of the same name and means
"a paradox in which the attempt to escape makes escape impossible".
Not exactly a paradox. It's a requirement (for something you want)
that cannot possibly be satisfied. In the novel, the rule is that
you can get out of the army if you're crazy; but if you claim that
you want to get out of the army, this proves you're not crazy.
(The novel never explains where the "22" comes from, but presumably
we are to assume that it's section 22 of the army regulations.)
"Catch 22" wasn't part of army regulations. It was how the army acted
to keep capable pilots flying more missions.

Dialogue between Yossarian and a doctor:

"You mean there's a catch?"
"Sure there's a catch," Doc Daneeka replied. "Catch-22. Anyone who
wants to get out of combat duty isn't really crazy."
There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a
concern for one's own safety in the face of dangers that were real and
immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could
be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would
no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be
crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane,
he had to fly them. If he flew them, he was crazy and didn't have to;
but if he didn't want to, he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved
very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and
let out a respectful whistle.
•••

bill
Mark Brader
2018-10-11 22:14:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill van
Post by Mark Brader
(The novel never explains where the "22" comes from, but presumably
we are to assume that it's section 22 of the army regulations.)
"Catch 22" wasn't part of army regulations. It was how the army acted
to keep capable pilots flying more missions.
Dialogue between Yossarian and a doctor...
Which uses words like "specified" and "clause", suggesting that it is
indeed referring to a regulation.

Can we agree to disagree?
--
Mark Brader "By this time I was feeling guilty. No, correction,
Toronto I was feeling that I *should* feel guilty ..."
***@vex.net -- Jude Devereaux
bill van
2018-10-12 00:58:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by bill van
Post by Mark Brader
(The novel never explains where the "22" comes from, but presumably
we are to assume that it's section 22 of the army regulations.)
"Catch 22" wasn't part of army regulations. It was how the army acted
to keep capable pilots flying more missions.
Dialogue between Yossarian and a doctor...
Which uses words like "specified" and "clause", suggesting that it is
indeed referring to a regulation.
Can we agree to disagree?
About you being wrong, you mean? Of course we can.

I'll leave you with this piece of text, from page 422 of 475 of this
.pdf version
of Catch 22:

https://7chan.org/lit/src/catch_22.pdf

"Yossarian left money in the old woman's lap - it was odd how many
wrongs leaving
money seemed to right - and strode out of the apartment, cursing Catch-22
vehemently as he descended the stairs, even though he knew there was no
such thing.
Catch-22 did not exist, he was positive of that, but it made no
difference. What did
matter was that everyone thought it existed, and that was much worse, for there
was no object or text to ridicule or refute, to accuse, criticize,
attack, amend, hate,
revile, spit at, rip to shreds, trample upon or burn up."

bill
Mark Brader
2018-10-12 02:18:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
(The novel never explains where the "22" comes from, but presumably
we are to assume that it's section 22 of the army regulations.)
"Catch 22" wasn't part of army regulations. It was how the army acted...
"...Catch-22 did not exist, he was positive of that, but it made no
difference. What did matter was that everyone thought it existed,
and that was much worse, for there was no object or text to ridicule
or refute..."
I had in fact forgotten that bit. Thanks.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "More importantly, Mark is just plain wrong."
***@vex.net -- John Hollingsworth
Lothar Frings
2018-10-11 07:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
I read that [Catch-22] comes from the novel of the same name and means
"a paradox in which the attempt to escape makes escape impossible".
Not exactly a paradox.
I was just citing the website which is
indicated by the quote marks. I know
what a paradox is.
Peter Moylan
2018-10-11 10:00:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lothar Frings
Post by Mark Brader
I read that [Catch-22] comes from the novel of the same name and means
"a paradox in which the attempt to escape makes escape impossible".
Not exactly a paradox.
I was just citing the website which is
indicated by the quote marks. I know
what a paradox is.
Ben Casey and James Kildare.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
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