[Goanet]Goa's social indicators

[Rui Collaco]

I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they are very good. But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the third world and considerably
better than those of India. In fact, it is because Goa already had a
headstart that it was able to progress faster. Small wonder that today it is
the state with the best indicators in India (on the whole). Irrespective of
who is in power, some social indicators have been improving continuously all
over the world (except for half a dozen war-torn countries). It isn't a case
of Goa being able to be singled out for that. The infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961. Today it is lower than that of the
UK!

You claim that there's a lot more to see, eat and drink in other european
countries...like Italy and Spain. Here's another brilliant example of how
hollow some remarks made on Goanet can sound. Obviously there's more to see
in those countries - Portugal is one fifth the size of Spain and Italy has
almost 6 times our population! Could it be otherwise? These are things that
you can't change, can you? Now to say that there's more to eat and drink in
those countries....that's puzzling! You refer to quantity, quality? It seems
obvious to me that you've never been in Portugal. If you did, you did not
eat in any quality restaurant here. Our gastronomy is amazing, our wines are
excellent, this is precisely what tourists keep praising about Portugal. By
comparison, eating in Spain can be very disappointing. In any case, what we
eat and drink is a matter of personal taste and choice, and as such
subjective!

I did not say that Goans visiting Portugal would feel shock and awe. I said
that some that I received at the airport and accompanied here did. They
could hardly disguise their amazement with Lisbon and the country in
general. See the difference between what I said and what you claim that I
said? It's the difference between being rigorous or careless quoting others!

Rui Manuel Colla?o

Lisbon

From: "gilbert" <gilmen30 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour?
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:05:20 -0000

Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that the

neocolonial rulers

from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in

these 42

years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule!

How would you justify such a statement?
Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have
researched or is this a personal opinion based on your

circumstances and

prejudices.
--
Tariq Siddiqui

-------------
Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy
rate in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate
33 per thousand. Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per
thousand, birth rate 15 per thousand. Believe it or not, life
expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is 76 years. Other
indicators are not comparible, however. Collaco states that Goans
visiting Portugal will feel Shock and Awe! Having travelled widely
all over the World, I find that a bit hard to swallow. Portugal is
great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less. Although there is a
lot more to see, eat and drink in other European countries with a
Latin flavour like Italy and Spain.
regards, Gilbert.
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[Miguel]

Dear Netters,

From the text of the postings from Rui two things are clear:
1.He believes he is Portuguese( Absolutely nothing wrong in that: He was
born a Portuguese national in Mocambique.He lives as a Portuguese
national,citizen ,and most probably[he has not stated this in any of his
postings that I have read],is a Portuguese passport holder.There is no
dichotomy in his thinking.)
2.He does not accept the independence of Mocambique as having any effect on
him by virtue of having been born in that country or growing up there. It is
not his native land,he was just born there.[ His response to the
independence is the third option. My uncle came back to Goa after 1975.His
first cousin,Aquino Braganca, stayed back as the Advisor to the first
President of Mocambique,Samora Machel,and died with him in a plane crash.
'Gosto e relative': Tastes differ!] His parents were Portuguese nationals of
Goan birth/descent.He is Portuguese .

Having said that,I do not understand why he waxes eloquent on Goa (pre- and
post- liberation/invasion of 1961) What is Goa to him: a topic for
discussion on the Goanet?Like Mocambique or Timor is to many Goans?His
interest in Goa and Goans is as academic as my interest in Pangea and the
primates or the stne age man.

Or is there some emotional bonding with Goa.Saudades,perhaps,lying hidden
below his consciousness. Eating chocolates is reported to help overcome
bouts of such feelings.[ in vivo research was done on jilted lovers or those
prone to unrequited romance] Bernado does not need to eat chocolates for ,as
one psycho-analyst friend once said to me,"The love of oneself is the
beginning of a life-long romance."That should sustain him till the grave.

Lastly,if Goans have been able to handle their birth rate,mortality
rates,life expectancy,per capita income,politicians ,elections and social
indicators to be the best state in India and live just one year less that
our brethren in Portugal,do we really need advice from good
intentioned,well-meaning ,well educated and widely travelled Portuguese
citizens???

If we need, we will ask. We even have the email IDs of possible consultants
in this context. Why the unsolicited advice ad nauseam?
To his credit,I will say that Rui has kept his postings quite well balanced
and almost fair.That I do not agree with his assesment and compulsion to
advise us Goans in Goa how to be more Goan [Mais papista du que Papa--More
Pope-like than the Pope himself] is another matter. I hope we can wind up
this thread on the so-called 'bharati invasion' (the Portuguese have every
right to think of it that way) of 1961 and move on to topics of mutual
benefit. This benefits no one. There is no question of Rui repatriating to
Goa: he is not an ex-patriate from here.He is happily living in his Patria.
He should let us live peacefully in our Matria,Amchem Goem amkam zai!!

Warm regards to all,

Miguel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>

*I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they are very good.* But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the third world and considerably
better than those of India. * The infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961.* Today it is lower than that of the
UK!

Comment: What we have achieved in 42 years makes us happy.If you are happy
with what Portugal has achieved in 28 years,I am happy for you. If not,one
may have to find a good dictator for Portugal again.Floriano may like to
join you in case the latter is true. His recent posting says that he misses
Antonio Oliviera Salazar.

In any case, what we eat and drink is *a matter of personal taste and
choice,* and as such

subjective!

Comment: Absolutely! The same applies for what we think,speak,write or post
on the net. When we eat and drink we should not puke or get inebriated as to
be a nuisance to others.Ditto for talking,writing and posting on the net.

I did not say that Goans visiting Portugal would feel shock and awe. I said
that some that I received at the airport and accompanied here did.

Comment: No comments on the type of people you accompanied.That's a personal
choice you made.

Rui Manuel Colla?o
Lisbon

Miguel Arcanjo de Braganca
Mapusa, Goa.
Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that theneocolonial rulers
from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in these 42
years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule!
Rui
How would you justify such a statement?
Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have
researched or is this a personal opinion based on your
circumstances and prejudices.
Tariq Siddiqui

-------------
Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy rate

in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate 33 per
thousand.
Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per thousand, birth rate 15 per
thousand.
Believe it or not, life expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is
76 years.
Portugal is great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less.
Gilbert.




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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003

[Marlon Menezes]

There is no doubt that Portugal is on the whole a much
better place than Goa ..except for the fact that they
speak portuguese over there - a very big problem for
us english speakers.

The other issue of course is whether Goa would have
been better off economically under Portugal than under
India. Again, I am pretty sure Goa would have made a
lot more progress if it were to have remained under
Portugal than come under India. Portugal of course has
a rich source of funds from the EEC as compared to
India. The argument of compensation by Portugal for
colonialization that some people put forth is pretty
weak in my opinion. The local population needs to take
responsibility and ownership for most of the ills that
afflict them rather than blame the foreigners. We cant
keep blaming others for events that took place half a
century ago. This argument, of course, works both
ways. There are individuals on Goanet like Bernado
Colaco (Xacuti) who blame the "outsiders" (code for
non-christians?) for all the alleged problems being
suffered by Goans today. This is absolutely ridiculous
and borders on being xenophobic if not bigoted.

Moving back to the debate of Portugal vs India, it is
pretty clear to me that from a tactical point of view
Goa would have been better off economically being
under Portugal. However from a long term strategic
point of view, I think Goa will be better off being
under India. Most of the forward looking indicators -
population growth/demographics, current and projected
economic growth etc all seem to suggest greater
economic potential in China and India as opposed to
Europe.

Marlon

Post by Rui Collaco
I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they
are very good. But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a
period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of
the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't
mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the third
world and considerably
better than those of India. In fact, it is because
Goa already had a
headstart that it was able to progress faster. Small
wonder that today it is
the state with the best indicators in India (on the
whole). Irrespective of
who is in power, some social indicators have been
improving continuously all
over the world (except for half a dozen war-torn
countries). It isn't a case
of Goa being able to be singled out for that. The
infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961. Today it is
lower than that of the
UK!

[Colaco-Dias, Paulo]

Hi Miguel,

Firstly, I think it is quite obvious that one will necessarily hold a
passport of the country he/she is a citizen of. Unless, of course, you
know people who hold passports of countries they are not citizens of????
Pardon me; I could not understand what you meant. Rui clearly stated he
is a Portuguese citizen from birth. So, obviously he holds a Portuguese
passport (or am I missing something here?)
Maybe you wish to refer to those who claim they are Indian citizens and
hold other passports for convenience and opportunism? Perhaps? I know
there are thousands of those!
Also, when referring to your cousin, why did you mention "His parents
were Portuguese nationals of Goan birth/descent"? Weren't your parents
in the same situation? And don't you think that is the case for the
very large majority of members in this forum?
The word that comes to my mind is redundancy. And there is a lot of it
in your post.

Secondly, I cannot understand why you brought Mocambique into this
thread. Unless, of course, you wanted to introduce your most important
relatives who were there too serving the first president of that
Republic? Fair enough. OK. I am now aware of that.

Thirdly, no points given for your sarcasm. Rui's posts in this forum
have been responses to false statements and non-factual based opinions.
It all started with you issuing false statements (at least twice and
both with extreme confidence) that Fundacao Oriente runs casinos in
Macau, to which Rui thought it deserved correction to re-establish the
truth. Of course, many other members of this forum also knew the truth,
but then, it probably did not serve their agenda to correct false
statements of this kind. No. It is far better and more important to
criticize the way the Portuguese restore their monuments and keep the
Portuguese bashing very much alive.

Fourthly, I do not think Rui was giving his advice to anyone. He was
merely expressing his opinions. As you must have noted, all of Rui's
posts were responses to other posts (you yourself referred to them as
"quite well balanced and almost fair" opinions).
As I recall, it wasn't Rui who started comparing Goa/India with
Portugal. I, myself, do not see much sense in that comparison. But it
all started when he merely replied to observations like Goa achieved
democracy at least 10 years before Portugal. I am still to be convinced
what kind of democracy that was.
- How many years after 1961 was statehood achieved and Konkani language
recognized?
- When did Goans vote/decide for integration/merger with India?
- When was the instrument of accession and/or instrument of merger
proposed and signed?
- And what kind of liberation is this when an alien government takes
over a territory by force, imposes their law and does not even care for
the population's opinion? (ever!). Very good democracy indeed. And of
course, almost the same happened in all the other princely states just
after 1947. But at least in those states, the respective maharaja's were
"democratically" forced (or shall I say persuaded) to sign the
instruments of accession and merger (with perhaps the exception of
Kashmir who never signed the instrument of merger). In Goa, we were not
even given the choice (before or after 1961). It would have been nice to
have been given the choice after 1961. I would have expected at least
that from the so called largest democracy of the world.
And please, do not try to convince me we were all Indians in Goa anyway
and that India existed as a country for a million years so Goa should
have been also given back to India. We were all Indians just like the
Pakistanis were all Indians! So, why don't we call them Indians too? As
for the country we now call the Republic of India, it is nothing else
but a post-British period invention with 56 years now. And Goa, was
never before a part of it!

Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself. I cannot remember
anyone asking you to represent all of us Goans in this forum. You
certainly do not represent me. I respect your opinion but we are all
different individuals and certainly have different ideas. Like Rui, I am
here to discuss my opinions, not to advice anyone.

BTW, will I ever have the pleasure of knowing your surname? Is it
Braganca? Or are you too ashamed of your Portuguese surname to mention
it?

No cheers today!

Paulo Colaco Dias



-----Original Message-----
From: Miguel [mailto:miguel12 at sancharnet.in]
To: goanet at goanet.org



Dear Netters,

[Miguel]

Dear Paulo Colaco-Dias,
There is just one Miguel posting on Goanet,so I do not see the need to write
my surname every time. I am definitely not ashamed of my name.I am proud to
be a Braganca[I write it as Braganza,for I hate to be called Braganka for
want of a proper type face or key]Both my parents are Braganca. I am Miguel
Arcanjo Braganca,joneiro/gaunkar of Communidade Agricole de Mapusa and a
parishioner of St.Jerome's Church famous for its Milagres feast(Festa da
Nossa Senhora das Milagres).My residential address and phone number can be
given to you on request. Your friend Bernado Colaco does not have the
courage to do likewise.
Aquino Braganca is not my first cousin:he is one generation older to me. I
only stated that he was born in Goa to differentiate from Rui Colaco,who was
born in Mocambique.He and my uncle Luis were in Mocambique.They made
different choices and both were different from the one that Rui made.That
was the purpose of the statement. Nothing else. We have lots of achievers in
my family.I was not boasting about Aquino and Luis;just stating an example.
I think you can understand that. If you cannot,I am wasting my time.

Granted that most our parents[and many of us on the goanet who were born
upto 18 December,1961] were Portuguese nationals by virtue of being born in
the Estado da India.Unless you have European blood in you,I do not see the
Portuguese descent. I am 100% Goan[not mulatto,descendent or mestizo or ,for
that matter ,siddhi/abyssinian]and that makes me an Indian. You may be
confused about that.I am not. Get your DNA tested.

Pakistani,Nepali and Bangladeshi peoples belong to the Indian
sub-continent.They just have different nationalities. The Bangladeshi people
are Bengali.Till December,1971,they were called East Pakistani and before
1947 they were Indians.One does not change one's genes with one's
nationality,citizenship or passport. Those who think they do,delude
themselves.

I have accepted the differentiation that Rui made between 'running a casino'
and living off its profits. Since you are harping on it,I would like to add
that a pimp who lives on the earnings of a prostitute does not become more
respectable than the prostitute.At least the prostitute works for her
living---even though it is mostly on her back. Does that clear your doubt.
After 1999,one prostitute's earnings were no longer available to those who
would like to venerate the veneral.Viva Macau!

To me Rui is an intelligent,balanced person.You do him dis-service by
picking up his cause. He is capable of handling it in a more gentlemanly
manner."Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself" . I do not
recall Rui authorizing you to post on his behalf. Practice what you preach.

I speak and write for myself. If you want to advise Goans in Goa[I am one of
them],come down here,surrender your passport ,nationality and citizenship of
Portugal and talk.If you do not have that courage,hold your peace. Sitting
in Portugal you can talk of corruption in India.You will sing a different
tune if you are sentenced to a jail term for libel/defamation in India. Have
courage to face the consequences,or continue as differently coloured citizen
of an adopted land.

If you have a problem with other national of your adopted country,that is
your problem.Solve it in Portugal,in Portuguese or any other language of
your choice. Why are you wasting time and space on Goanet?

If you lack cheer in Portugal,drink Porto,Tinto or Azeite de Antonio*
Oliviera* Salazar!

Or join Mocidade Portuguesa.

Cheers! Viva Goa!!

Miguel Arcanjo de Braganca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Colaco-Dias, Paulo" <Paulo.Dias at ca.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators


Hi Miguel,

Rui clearly stated he is a Portuguese citizen from birth.

Also, when referring to your cousin, why did you mention "His parents
were Portuguese nationals of Goan birth/descent"? Weren't your parents
in the same situation? And don't you think that is the case for the
very large majority of members in this forum?

Secondly, I cannot understand why you brought Mocambique into this
thread. Unless, of course, you wanted to introduce your most important
relatives who were there too serving the first president of that
Republic? Fair enough. OK. I am now aware of that.

Fourthly, I do not think Rui was giving his advice to anyone. He was
merely expressing his opinions. As you must have noted, all of Rui's
posts were responses to other posts (you yourself referred to them as
"quite well balanced and almost fair" opinions).

.
- How many years after 1961 was statehood achieved and Konkani language
recognized?
And please, do not try to convince me we were all Indians in Goa anyway
and that India existed as a country for a million years so Goa should
have been also given back to India. We were all Indians just like the
Pakistanis were all Indians! So, why don't we call them Indians too?

Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself. I cannot remember
anyone asking you to represent all of us Goans in this forum. You
certainly do not represent me. I respect your opinion but we are all
different individuals and certainly have different ideas. Like Rui, I am
here to discuss my opinions, not to advice anyone.

BTW, will I ever have the pleasure of knowing your surname? Is it
Braganca? Or are you too ashamed of your Portuguese surname to mention
it?

No cheers today!

Paulo Colaco Dias



-----Original Message-----
From: Miguel [mailto:miguel12 at sancharnet.in]
To: goanet at goanet.org



Dear Netters,

[Miguel]

Dear Paulo Colaco-Dias,
There is just one Miguel posting on Goanet,so I do not see the need to write
my surname every time. I am definitely not ashamed of my name.I am proud to
be a Braganca[I write it as Braganza,for I hate to be called Braganka for
want of a proper type face or key]Both my parents are Braganca. I am Miguel
Arcanjo Braganca,joneiro/gaunkar of Communidade Agricole de Mapusa and a
parishioner of St.Jerome's Church famous for its Milagres feast(Festa da
Nossa Senhora das Milagres).My residential address and phone number can be
given to you on request. Your friend Bernado Colaco does not have the
courage to do likewise.
Aquino Braganca is not my first cousin:he is one generation older to me. I
only stated that he was born in Goa to differentiate from Rui Colaco,who was
born in Mocambique.He and my uncle Luis were in Mocambique.They made
different choices and both were different from the one that Rui made.That
was the purpose of the statement. Nothing else. We have lots of achievers in
my family.I was not boasting about Aquino and Luis;just stating an example.
I think you can understand that. If you cannot,I am wasting my time.

Granted that most our parents[and many of us on the goanet who were born
upto 18 December,1961] were Portuguese nationals by virtue of being born in
the Estado da India.Unless you have European blood in you,I do not see the
Portuguese descent. I am 100% Goan[not mulatto,descendent or mestizo or ,for
that matter ,siddhi/abyssinian]and that makes me an Indian. You may be
confused about that.I am not. Get your DNA tested.

Pakistani,Nepali and Bangladeshi peoples belong to the Indian
sub-continent.They just have different nationalities. The Bangladeshi people
are Bengali.Till December,1971,they were called East Pakistani and before
1947 they were Indians.One does not change one's genes with one's
nationality,citizenship or passport. Those who think they do,delude
themselves.

I have accepted the differentiation that Rui made between 'running a casino'
and living off its profits. Since you are harping on it,I would like to add
that a pimp who lives on the earnings of a prostitute does not become more
respectable than the prostitute.At least the prostitute works for her
living---even though it is mostly on her back. Does that clear your doubt.
After 1999,one prostitute's earnings were no longer available to those who
would like to venerate the veneral.Viva Macau!

To me Rui is an intelligent,balanced person.You do him dis-service by
picking up his cause. He is capable of handling it in a more gentlemanly
manner."Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself" . I do not
recall Rui authorizing you to post on his behalf. Practice what you preach.

I speak and write for myself. If you want to advise Goans in Goa[I am one of
them],come down here,surrender your passport ,nationality and citizenship of
Portugal and talk.If you do not have that courage,hold your peace. Sitting
in Portugal you can talk of corruption in India.You will sing a different
tune if you are sentenced to a jail term for libel/defamation in India. Have
courage to face the consequences,or continue as differently coloured citizen
of an adopted land.

If you have a problem with other national of your adopted country,that is
your problem.Solve it in Portugal,in Portuguese or any other language of
your choice. Why are you wasting time and space on Goanet?

If you lack cheer in Portugal,drink Porto,Tinto or Azeite de Antonio*
Oliviera* Salazar!

Or join Mocidade Portuguesa.

Cheers! Viva Goa!!

Miguel Arcanjo de Braganca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Colaco-Dias, Paulo" <Paulo.Dias at ca.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators


Hi Miguel,

Rui clearly stated he is a Portuguese citizen from birth.

Also, when referring to your cousin, why did you mention "His parents
were Portuguese nationals of Goan birth/descent"? Weren't your parents
in the same situation? And don't you think that is the case for the
very large majority of members in this forum?

Secondly, I cannot understand why you brought Mocambique into this
thread. Unless, of course, you wanted to introduce your most important
relatives who were there too serving the first president of that
Republic? Fair enough. OK. I am now aware of that.

Fourthly, I do not think Rui was giving his advice to anyone. He was
merely expressing his opinions. As you must have noted, all of Rui's
posts were responses to other posts (you yourself referred to them as
"quite well balanced and almost fair" opinions).

.
- How many years after 1961 was statehood achieved and Konkani language
recognized?
And please, do not try to convince me we were all Indians in Goa anyway
and that India existed as a country for a million years so Goa should
have been also given back to India. We were all Indians just like the
Pakistanis were all Indians! So, why don't we call them Indians too?

Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself. I cannot remember
anyone asking you to represent all of us Goans in this forum. You
certainly do not represent me. I respect your opinion but we are all
different individuals and certainly have different ideas. Like Rui, I am
here to discuss my opinions, not to advice anyone.

BTW, will I ever have the pleasure of knowing your surname? Is it
Braganca? Or are you too ashamed of your Portuguese surname to mention
it?

No cheers today!

Paulo Colaco Dias



-----Original Message-----
From: Miguel [mailto:miguel12 at sancharnet.in]
To: goanet at goanet.org



Dear Netters,

[Miguel]

Dear Paulo Colaco-Dias,
There is just one Miguel posting on Goanet,so I do not see the need to write
my surname every time. I am definitely not ashamed of my name.I am proud to
be a Braganca[I write it as Braganza,for I hate to be called Braganka for
want of a proper type face or key]Both my parents are Braganca. I am Miguel
Arcanjo Braganca,joneiro/gaunkar of Communidade Agricole de Mapusa and a
parishioner of St.Jerome's Church famous for its Milagres feast(Festa da
Nossa Senhora das Milagres).My residential address and phone number can be
given to you on request. Your friend Bernado Colaco does not have the
courage to do likewise.
Aquino Braganca is not my first cousin:he is one generation older to me. I
only stated that he was born in Goa to differentiate from Rui Colaco,who was
born in Mocambique.He and my uncle Luis were in Mocambique.They made
different choices and both were different from the one that Rui made.That
was the purpose of the statement. Nothing else. We have lots of achievers in
my family.I was not boasting about Aquino and Luis;just stating an example.
I think you can understand that. If you cannot,I am wasting my time.

Granted that most our parents[and many of us on the goanet who were born
upto 18 December,1961] were Portuguese nationals by virtue of being born in
the Estado da India.Unless you have European blood in you,I do not see the
Portuguese descent. I am 100% Goan[not mulatto,descendent or mestizo or ,for
that matter ,siddhi/abyssinian]and that makes me an Indian. You may be
confused about that.I am not. Get your DNA tested.

Pakistani,Nepali and Bangladeshi peoples belong to the Indian
sub-continent.They just have different nationalities. The Bangladeshi people
are Bengali.Till December,1971,they were called East Pakistani and before
1947 they were Indians.One does not change one's genes with one's
nationality,citizenship or passport. Those who think they do,delude
themselves.

I have accepted the differentiation that Rui made between 'running a casino'
and living off its profits. Since you are harping on it,I would like to add
that a pimp who lives on the earnings of a prostitute does not become more
respectable than the prostitute.At least the prostitute works for her
living---even though it is mostly on her back. Does that clear your doubt.
After 1999,one prostitute's earnings were no longer available to those who
would like to venerate the veneral.Viva Macau!

To me Rui is an intelligent,balanced person.You do him dis-service by
picking up his cause. He is capable of handling it in a more gentlemanly
manner."Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself" . I do not
recall Rui authorizing you to post on his behalf. Practice what you preach.

I speak and write for myself. If you want to advise Goans in Goa[I am one of
them],come down here,surrender your passport ,nationality and citizenship of
Portugal and talk.If you do not have that courage,hold your peace. Sitting
in Portugal you can talk of corruption in India.You will sing a different
tune if you are sentenced to a jail term for libel/defamation in India. Have
courage to face the consequences,or continue as differently coloured citizen
of an adopted land.

If you have a problem with other national of your adopted country,that is
your problem.Solve it in Portugal,in Portuguese or any other language of
your choice. Why are you wasting time and space on Goanet?

If you lack cheer in Portugal,drink Porto,Tinto or Azeite de Antonio*
Oliviera* Salazar!

Or join Mocidade Portuguesa.

Cheers! Viva Goa!!

Miguel Arcanjo de Braganca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Colaco-Dias, Paulo" <Paulo.Dias at ca.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators


Hi Miguel,

Rui clearly stated he is a Portuguese citizen from birth.

Also, when referring to your cousin, why did you mention "His parents
were Portuguese nationals of Goan birth/descent"? Weren't your parents
in the same situation? And don't you think that is the case for the
very large majority of members in this forum?

Secondly, I cannot understand why you brought Mocambique into this
thread. Unless, of course, you wanted to introduce your most important
relatives who were there too serving the first president of that
Republic? Fair enough. OK. I am now aware of that.

Fourthly, I do not think Rui was giving his advice to anyone. He was
merely expressing his opinions. As you must have noted, all of Rui's
posts were responses to other posts (you yourself referred to them as
"quite well balanced and almost fair" opinions).

.
- How many years after 1961 was statehood achieved and Konkani language
recognized?
And please, do not try to convince me we were all Indians in Goa anyway
and that India existed as a country for a million years so Goa should
have been also given back to India. We were all Indians just like the
Pakistanis were all Indians! So, why don't we call them Indians too?

Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself. I cannot remember
anyone asking you to represent all of us Goans in this forum. You
certainly do not represent me. I respect your opinion but we are all
different individuals and certainly have different ideas. Like Rui, I am
here to discuss my opinions, not to advice anyone.

BTW, will I ever have the pleasure of knowing your surname? Is it
Braganca? Or are you too ashamed of your Portuguese surname to mention
it?

No cheers today!

Paulo Colaco Dias



-----Original Message-----
From: Miguel [mailto:miguel12 at sancharnet.in]
To: goanet at goanet.org



Dear Netters,

[Miguel]

Dear Paulo Colaco-Dias,
There is just one Miguel posting on Goanet,so I do not see the need to write
my surname every time. I am definitely not ashamed of my name.I am proud to
be a Braganca[I write it as Braganza,for I hate to be called Braganka for
want of a proper type face or key]Both my parents are Braganca. I am Miguel
Arcanjo Braganca,joneiro/gaunkar of Communidade Agricole de Mapusa and a
parishioner of St.Jerome's Church famous for its Milagres feast(Festa da
Nossa Senhora das Milagres).My residential address and phone number can be
given to you on request. Your friend Bernado Colaco does not have the
courage to do likewise.
Aquino Braganca is not my first cousin:he is one generation older to me. I
only stated that he was born in Goa to differentiate from Rui Colaco,who was
born in Mocambique.He and my uncle Luis were in Mocambique.They made
different choices and both were different from the one that Rui made.That
was the purpose of the statement. Nothing else. We have lots of achievers in
my family.I was not boasting about Aquino and Luis;just stating an example.
I think you can understand that. If you cannot,I am wasting my time.

Granted that most our parents[and many of us on the goanet who were born
upto 18 December,1961] were Portuguese nationals by virtue of being born in
the Estado da India.Unless you have European blood in you,I do not see the
Portuguese descent. I am 100% Goan[not mulatto,descendent or mestizo or ,for
that matter ,siddhi/abyssinian]and that makes me an Indian. You may be
confused about that.I am not. Get your DNA tested.

Pakistani,Nepali and Bangladeshi peoples belong to the Indian
sub-continent.They just have different nationalities. The Bangladeshi people
are Bengali.Till December,1971,they were called East Pakistani and before
1947 they were Indians.One does not change one's genes with one's
nationality,citizenship or passport. Those who think they do,delude
themselves.

I have accepted the differentiation that Rui made between 'running a casino'
and living off its profits. Since you are harping on it,I would like to add
that a pimp who lives on the earnings of a prostitute does not become more
respectable than the prostitute.At least the prostitute works for her
living---even though it is mostly on her back. Does that clear your doubt.
After 1999,one prostitute's earnings were no longer available to those who
would like to venerate the veneral.Viva Macau!

To me Rui is an intelligent,balanced person.You do him dis-service by
picking up his cause. He is capable of handling it in a more gentlemanly
manner."Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself" . I do not
recall Rui authorizing you to post on his behalf. Practice what you preach.

I speak and write for myself. If you want to advise Goans in Goa[I am one of
them],come down here,surrender your passport ,nationality and citizenship of
Portugal and talk.If you do not have that courage,hold your peace. Sitting
in Portugal you can talk of corruption in India.You will sing a different
tune if you are sentenced to a jail term for libel/defamation in India. Have
courage to face the consequences,or continue as differently coloured citizen
of an adopted land.

If you have a problem with other national of your adopted country,that is
your problem.Solve it in Portugal,in Portuguese or any other language of
your choice. Why are you wasting time and space on Goanet?

If you lack cheer in Portugal,drink Porto,Tinto or Azeite de Antonio*
Oliviera* Salazar!

Or join Mocidade Portuguesa.

Cheers! Viva Goa!!

Miguel Arcanjo de Braganca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Colaco-Dias, Paulo" <Paulo.Dias at ca.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators


Hi Miguel,

Rui clearly stated he is a Portuguese citizen from birth.

Also, when referring to your cousin, why did you mention "His parents
were Portuguese nationals of Goan birth/descent"? Weren't your parents
in the same situation? And don't you think that is the case for the
very large majority of members in this forum?

Secondly, I cannot understand why you brought Mocambique into this
thread. Unless, of course, you wanted to introduce your most important
relatives who were there too serving the first president of that
Republic? Fair enough. OK. I am now aware of that.

Fourthly, I do not think Rui was giving his advice to anyone. He was
merely expressing his opinions. As you must have noted, all of Rui's
posts were responses to other posts (you yourself referred to them as
"quite well balanced and almost fair" opinions).

.
- How many years after 1961 was statehood achieved and Konkani language
recognized?
And please, do not try to convince me we were all Indians in Goa anyway
and that India existed as a country for a million years so Goa should
have been also given back to India. We were all Indians just like the
Pakistanis were all Indians! So, why don't we call them Indians too?

Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself. I cannot remember
anyone asking you to represent all of us Goans in this forum. You
certainly do not represent me. I respect your opinion but we are all
different individuals and certainly have different ideas. Like Rui, I am
here to discuss my opinions, not to advice anyone.

BTW, will I ever have the pleasure of knowing your surname? Is it
Braganca? Or are you too ashamed of your Portuguese surname to mention
it?

No cheers today!

Paulo Colaco Dias



-----Original Message-----
From: Miguel [mailto:miguel12 at sancharnet.in]
To: goanet at goanet.org



Dear Netters,

[Bernado Colaco]

Marlon,

Your statement about me (bigoted)is sheer crap like
the rest of the bharatis vomiting (look at the chap
who brought in figs. on infant mortality etc) on
Goanet. I guess you are East African returned to Goa
by Amin or Moi and basically do not have a clue as to
what happened in Goa after 61.

If you if you have any info post 61 I will be to glad
to discuss.

Xac

--- Marlon Menezes <marlon at goacom.com> wrote: > There
is no doubt that Portugal is on the whole a

Post by Marlon Menezes
much
better place than Goa ..except for the fact that
they
speak portuguese over there - a very big problem for
us english speakers.
The other issue of course is whether Goa would have
been better off economically under Portugal than
under
India. Again, I am pretty sure Goa would have made a
lot more progress if it were to have remained under
Portugal than come under India. Portugal of course
has
a rich source of funds from the EEC as compared to
India. The argument of compensation by Portugal for
colonialization that some people put forth is pretty
weak in my opinion. The local population needs to
take
responsibility and ownership for most of the ills
that
afflict them rather than blame the foreigners. We
cant
keep blaming others for events that took place half
a
century ago. This argument, of course, works both
ways. There are individuals on Goanet like Bernado
Colaco (Xacuti) who blame the "outsiders" (code for
non-christians?) for all the alleged problems being
suffered by Goans today. This is absolutely
ridiculous
and borders on being xenophobic if not bigoted.
Moving back to the debate of Portugal vs India, it
is
pretty clear to me that from a tactical point of
view
Goa would have been better off economically being
under Portugal. However from a long term strategic
point of view, I think Goa will be better off being
under India. Most of the forward looking indicators
-
population growth/demographics, current and
projected
economic growth etc all seem to suggest greater
economic potential in China and India as opposed to
Europe.
Marlon

Post by Rui Collaco
I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they
are very good. But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a
period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of
the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't
mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the

third

Post by Rui Collaco
world and considerably
better than those of India. In fact, it is because
Goa already had a
headstart that it was able to progress faster.

Small

Post by Rui Collaco
wonder that today it is
the state with the best indicators in India (on

the

Post by Rui Collaco
whole). Irrespective of
who is in power, some social indicators have been
improving continuously all
over the world (except for half a dozen war-torn
countries). It isn't a case
of Goa being able to be singled out for that. The
infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961. Today it is
lower than that of the
UK!

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html

[Marlon Menezes]

Xac,

Sorry to inform you that neither I nor my parents have
ever set foot on the continent of Africa. According to
my mother, I was born in Mapusa.

I am however curious to know what makes you think I am
an East African returnee. This is pretty bizzare
considering I was not even born when these events took
place.

Anyway, if you feel so strongly about the present
state of affairs in Goa, why dont YOU go and do
something about it, rather than moan and groan about
it from your rocking chair. The fact that you have not
really taken any concrete actions to support your
objectives suggests to me that you are either not very
serious about your alleged cause or are incredibly
lazy and expect others to do your work for you.

Marlon

Post by Bernado Colaco
Marlon,

I guess you are East African returned to Goa

Post by Bernado Colaco
by Amin or Moi and basically do not have a clue as
to
what happened in Goa after 61.
If you if you have any info post 61 I will be to
glad
to discuss.
Xac

[Miguel]

Dear Goanetters,
Can we all just ignore the postings of the gentleman(??) who calls himself
/itself Bernado,Xac,Colaco;preaches about not attacking the person and does
exactly that;who does not know if he(it) was born before or after 1961;who
plays googly with the ball(right or wrong/left)but does not bat,who play
hockey and hokey with equal ease and who is mortally scared to disclose
his/its identity or place of residence. Why should we waste time responding
to cowards? I have stopped.He /it is now trying to provoke others. Ignore
it.That is all it deserves.

Cheers,
Miguel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marlon Menezes" <marlon at goacom.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 01,

Post by Marlon Menezes
Xac,
Sorry to inform you that neither I nor my parents have
ever set foot on the continent of Africa. According to
my mother, I was born in Mapusa.
I am however curious to know what makes you think I am
an East African returnee. This is pretty bizzare
considering I was not even born when these events took
place.
Anyway, if you feel so strongly about the present
state of affairs in Goa, why dont YOU go and do
something about it, rather than moan and groan about
it from your rocking chair. The fact that you have not
really taken any concrete actions to support your
objectives suggests to me that you are either not very
serious about your alleged cause or are incredibly
lazy and expect others to do your work for you.
Marlon

Post by Bernado Colaco
Marlon,

I guess you are East African returned to Goa

Post by Bernado Colaco
by Amin or Moi and basically do not have a clue as
to
what happened in Goa after 61.
If you if you have any info post 61 I will be to
glad
to discuss.
Xac

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.514 / Virus Database: 312 - Release Date: 8/28/2003

[Miguel]

Dear Goanetters,
Can we all just ignore the postings of the gentleman(??) who calls himself
/itself Bernado,Xac,Colaco;preaches about not attacking the person and does
exactly that;who does not know if he(it) was born before or after 1961;who
plays googly with the ball(right or wrong/left)but does not bat,who play
hockey and hokey with equal ease and who is mortally scared to disclose
his/its identity or place of residence. Why should we waste time responding
to cowards? I have stopped.He /it is now trying to provoke others. Ignore
it.That is all it deserves.

Cheers,
Miguel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marlon Menezes" <marlon at goacom.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 01,

Post by Marlon Menezes
Xac,
Sorry to inform you that neither I nor my parents have
ever set foot on the continent of Africa. According to
my mother, I was born in Mapusa.
I am however curious to know what makes you think I am
an East African returnee. This is pretty bizzare
considering I was not even born when these events took
place.
Anyway, if you feel so strongly about the present
state of affairs in Goa, why dont YOU go and do
something about it, rather than moan and groan about
it from your rocking chair. The fact that you have not
really taken any concrete actions to support your
objectives suggests to me that you are either not very
serious about your alleged cause or are incredibly
lazy and expect others to do your work for you.
Marlon

Post by Bernado Colaco
Marlon,

I guess you are East African returned to Goa

Post by Bernado Colaco
by Amin or Moi and basically do not have a clue as
to
what happened in Goa after 61.
If you if you have any info post 61 I will be to
glad
to discuss.
Xac

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.514 / Virus Database: 312 - Release Date: 8/28/2003

[Miguel]

Dear Goanetters,
Can we all just ignore the postings of the gentleman(??) who calls himself
/itself Bernado,Xac,Colaco;preaches about not attacking the person and does
exactly that;who does not know if he(it) was born before or after 1961;who
plays googly with the ball(right or wrong/left)but does not bat,who play
hockey and hokey with equal ease and who is mortally scared to disclose
his/its identity or place of residence. Why should we waste time responding
to cowards? I have stopped.He /it is now trying to provoke others. Ignore
it.That is all it deserves.

Cheers,
Miguel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marlon Menezes" <marlon at goacom.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 01,

Post by Marlon Menezes
Xac,
Sorry to inform you that neither I nor my parents have
ever set foot on the continent of Africa. According to
my mother, I was born in Mapusa.
I am however curious to know what makes you think I am
an East African returnee. This is pretty bizzare
considering I was not even born when these events took
place.
Anyway, if you feel so strongly about the present
state of affairs in Goa, why dont YOU go and do
something about it, rather than moan and groan about
it from your rocking chair. The fact that you have not
really taken any concrete actions to support your
objectives suggests to me that you are either not very
serious about your alleged cause or are incredibly
lazy and expect others to do your work for you.
Marlon

Post by Bernado Colaco
Marlon,

I guess you are East African returned to Goa

Post by Bernado Colaco
by Amin or Moi and basically do not have a clue as
to
what happened in Goa after 61.
If you if you have any info post 61 I will be to
glad
to discuss.
Xac

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.514 / Virus Database: 312 - Release Date: 8/28/2003

[Miguel]

Dear Goanetters,
Can we all just ignore the postings of the gentleman(??) who calls himself
/itself Bernado,Xac,Colaco;preaches about not attacking the person and does
exactly that;who does not know if he(it) was born before or after 1961;who
plays googly with the ball(right or wrong/left)but does not bat,who play
hockey and hokey with equal ease and who is mortally scared to disclose
his/its identity or place of residence. Why should we waste time responding
to cowards? I have stopped.He /it is now trying to provoke others. Ignore
it.That is all it deserves.

Cheers,
Miguel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marlon Menezes" <marlon at goacom.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Monday, September 01,

Post by Marlon Menezes
Xac,
Sorry to inform you that neither I nor my parents have
ever set foot on the continent of Africa. According to
my mother, I was born in Mapusa.
I am however curious to know what makes you think I am
an East African returnee. This is pretty bizzare
considering I was not even born when these events took
place.
Anyway, if you feel so strongly about the present
state of affairs in Goa, why dont YOU go and do
something about it, rather than moan and groan about
it from your rocking chair. The fact that you have not
really taken any concrete actions to support your
objectives suggests to me that you are either not very
serious about your alleged cause or are incredibly
lazy and expect others to do your work for you.
Marlon

Post by Bernado Colaco
Marlon,

I guess you are East African returned to Goa

Post by Bernado Colaco
by Amin or Moi and basically do not have a clue as
to
what happened in Goa after 61.
If you if you have any info post 61 I will be to
glad
to discuss.
Xac

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.514 / Virus Database: 312 - Release Date: 8/28/2003

[Rui Collaco]

Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on Goanet. That's
my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given by "Gilbert" (why
don't people identify themselves on Goanet?), seemed very good to me, for a
third world region. Some of them may even be true. However, if you check the
Union Budget 2003-2004, Economic Survey 2002-2003/Statistical Table/Human
Development Indicators/9.5 State-wise infant mortality rate
(http://indiabudget.nic.in), you get the following figures:

Infant mortality rate

1961 2001

India 115 71
Goa 57 36

This means that according to this most credible of Indian sources of
information, in 1961 the infant mortality rate in Goa was 57 (per 1000 live
births), half the rate for India, and in 2001 (forty years later) it was 36,
still half the rate of India as a whole, but not even half the rate of 40
years before. What an achievement to boast about!
Gilbert was claiming that the rate for Goa was 70 in 1961, and is now 11! He
should check on his sources, unless he invented those rates. There are no
miracles these days, and I haven't heard about the Sultan of Brunei buying
up Goa, so there's no way the infant mortality rate could come down from 36
to 11 per thousand in two years!!! Or are we to conclude that Indian
statistics are a free-for-all?
This is what I call misinformation, whether deliberate or by negligence.

One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5. The
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development Report-2003.

Rui Manuel Colla?o

Lisbon

From: "gilbert" <gilmen30 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour?
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:05:20 -0000

Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that the

neocolonial rulers

from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in

these 42

years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule!

How would you justify such a statement?
Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have
researched or is this a personal opinion based on your

circumstances and

prejudices.
--
Tariq Siddiqui

-------------
Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy
rate in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate
33 per thousand. Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per
thousand, birth rate 15 per thousand. Believe it or not, life
expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is 76 years. Other
indicators are not comparible, however. Collaco states that Goans
visiting Portugal will feel Shock and Awe! Having travelled widely
all over the World, I find that a bit hard to swallow. Portugal is
great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less. Although there is a
lot more to see, eat and drink in other European countries with a
Latin flavour like Italy and Spain.
regards, Gilbert.
##########################################################################
# Send submissions for Goanet to goanet at goanet.org #
# PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts #
# More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ #
# Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others #
##########################################################################

_________________________________________________________________
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[Rui Collaco]

I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they are very good. But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the third world and considerably
better than those of India. In fact, it is because Goa already had a
headstart that it was able to progress faster. Small wonder that today it is
the state with the best indicators in India (on the whole). Irrespective of
who is in power, some social indicators have been improving continuously all
over the world (except for half a dozen war-torn countries). It isn't a case
of Goa being able to be singled out for that. The infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961. Today it is lower than that of the
UK!

You claim that there's a lot more to see, eat and drink in other european
countries...like Italy and Spain. Here's another brilliant example of how
hollow some remarks made on Goanet can sound. Obviously there's more to see
in those countries - Portugal is one fifth the size of Spain and Italy has
almost 6 times our population! Could it be otherwise? These are things that
you can't change, can you? Now to say that there's more to eat and drink in
those countries....that's puzzling! You refer to quantity, quality? It seems
obvious to me that you've never been in Portugal. If you did, you did not
eat in any quality restaurant here. Our gastronomy is amazing, our wines are
excellent, this is precisely what tourists keep praising about Portugal. By
comparison, eating in Spain can be very disappointing. In any case, what we
eat and drink is a matter of personal taste and choice, and as such
subjective!

I did not say that Goans visiting Portugal would feel shock and awe. I said
that some that I received at the airport and accompanied here did. They
could hardly disguise their amazement with Lisbon and the country in
general. See the difference between what I said and what you claim that I
said? It's the difference between being rigorous or careless quoting others!

Rui Manuel Colla?o

Lisbon

From: "gilbert" <gilmen30 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour?
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:05:20 -0000

Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that the

neocolonial rulers

from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in

these 42

years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule!

How would you justify such a statement?
Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have
researched or is this a personal opinion based on your

circumstances and

prejudices.
--
Tariq Siddiqui

-------------
Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy
rate in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate
33 per thousand. Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per
thousand, birth rate 15 per thousand. Believe it or not, life
expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is 76 years. Other
indicators are not comparible, however. Collaco states that Goans
visiting Portugal will feel Shock and Awe! Having travelled widely
all over the World, I find that a bit hard to swallow. Portugal is
great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less. Although there is a
lot more to see, eat and drink in other European countries with a
Latin flavour like Italy and Spain.
regards, Gilbert.
##########################################################################
# Send submissions for Goanet to goanet at goanet.org #
# PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts #
# More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ #
# Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others #
##########################################################################

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[Miguel]

Dear Netters,

From the text of the postings from Rui two things are clear:
1.He believes he is Portuguese( Absolutely nothing wrong in that: He was
born a Portuguese national in Mocambique.He lives as a Portuguese
national,citizen ,and most probably[he has not stated this in any of his
postings that I have read],is a Portuguese passport holder.There is no
dichotomy in his thinking.)
2.He does not accept the independence of Mocambique as having any effect on
him by virtue of having been born in that country or growing up there. It is
not his native land,he was just born there.[ His response to the
independence is the third option. My uncle came back to Goa after 1975.His
first cousin,Aquino Braganca, stayed back as the Advisor to the first
President of Mocambique,Samora Machel,and died with him in a plane crash.
'Gosto e relative': Tastes differ!] His parents were Portuguese nationals of
Goan birth/descent.He is Portuguese .

Having said that,I do not understand why he waxes eloquent on Goa (pre- and
post- liberation/invasion of 1961) What is Goa to him: a topic for
discussion on the Goanet?Like Mocambique or Timor is to many Goans?His
interest in Goa and Goans is as academic as my interest in Pangea and the
primates or the stne age man.

Or is there some emotional bonding with Goa.Saudades,perhaps,lying hidden
below his consciousness. Eating chocolates is reported to help overcome
bouts of such feelings.[ in vivo research was done on jilted lovers or those
prone to unrequited romance] Bernado does not need to eat chocolates for ,as
one psycho-analyst friend once said to me,"The love of oneself is the
beginning of a life-long romance."That should sustain him till the grave.

Lastly,if Goans have been able to handle their birth rate,mortality
rates,life expectancy,per capita income,politicians ,elections and social
indicators to be the best state in India and live just one year less that
our brethren in Portugal,do we really need advice from good
intentioned,well-meaning ,well educated and widely travelled Portuguese
citizens???

If we need, we will ask. We even have the email IDs of possible consultants
in this context. Why the unsolicited advice ad nauseam?
To his credit,I will say that Rui has kept his postings quite well balanced
and almost fair.That I do not agree with his assesment and compulsion to
advise us Goans in Goa how to be more Goan [Mais papista du que Papa--More
Pope-like than the Pope himself] is another matter. I hope we can wind up
this thread on the so-called 'bharati invasion' (the Portuguese have every
right to think of it that way) of 1961 and move on to topics of mutual
benefit. This benefits no one. There is no question of Rui repatriating to
Goa: he is not an ex-patriate from here.He is happily living in his Patria.
He should let us live peacefully in our Matria,Amchem Goem amkam zai!!

Warm regards to all,

Miguel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>

*I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they are very good.* But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the third world and considerably
better than those of India. * The infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961.* Today it is lower than that of the
UK!

Comment: What we have achieved in 42 years makes us happy.If you are happy
with what Portugal has achieved in 28 years,I am happy for you. If not,one
may have to find a good dictator for Portugal again.Floriano may like to
join you in case the latter is true. His recent posting says that he misses
Antonio Oliviera Salazar.

In any case, what we eat and drink is *a matter of personal taste and
choice,* and as such

subjective!

Comment: Absolutely! The same applies for what we think,speak,write or post
on the net. When we eat and drink we should not puke or get inebriated as to
be a nuisance to others.Ditto for talking,writing and posting on the net.

I did not say that Goans visiting Portugal would feel shock and awe. I said
that some that I received at the airport and accompanied here did.

Comment: No comments on the type of people you accompanied.That's a personal
choice you made.

Rui Manuel Colla?o
Lisbon

Miguel Arcanjo de Braganca
Mapusa, Goa.
Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that theneocolonial rulers
from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in these 42
years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule!
Rui
How would you justify such a statement?
Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have
researched or is this a personal opinion based on your
circumstances and prejudices.
Tariq Siddiqui

-------------
Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy rate

in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate 33 per
thousand.
Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per thousand, birth rate 15 per
thousand.
Believe it or not, life expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is
76 years.
Portugal is great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less.
Gilbert.




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[Marlon Menezes]

There is no doubt that Portugal is on the whole a much
better place than Goa ..except for the fact that they
speak portuguese over there - a very big problem for
us english speakers.

The other issue of course is whether Goa would have
been better off economically under Portugal than under
India. Again, I am pretty sure Goa would have made a
lot more progress if it were to have remained under
Portugal than come under India. Portugal of course has
a rich source of funds from the EEC as compared to
India. The argument of compensation by Portugal for
colonialization that some people put forth is pretty
weak in my opinion. The local population needs to take
responsibility and ownership for most of the ills that
afflict them rather than blame the foreigners. We cant
keep blaming others for events that took place half a
century ago. This argument, of course, works both
ways. There are individuals on Goanet like Bernado
Colaco (Xacuti) who blame the "outsiders" (code for
non-christians?) for all the alleged problems being
suffered by Goans today. This is absolutely ridiculous
and borders on being xenophobic if not bigoted.

Moving back to the debate of Portugal vs India, it is
pretty clear to me that from a tactical point of view
Goa would have been better off economically being
under Portugal. However from a long term strategic
point of view, I think Goa will be better off being
under India. Most of the forward looking indicators -
population growth/demographics, current and projected
economic growth etc all seem to suggest greater
economic potential in China and India as opposed to
Europe.

Marlon

Post by Rui Collaco
I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they
are very good. But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a
period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of
the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't
mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the third
world and considerably
better than those of India. In fact, it is because
Goa already had a
headstart that it was able to progress faster. Small
wonder that today it is
the state with the best indicators in India (on the
whole). Irrespective of
who is in power, some social indicators have been
improving continuously all
over the world (except for half a dozen war-torn
countries). It isn't a case
of Goa being able to be singled out for that. The
infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961. Today it is
lower than that of the
UK!

[Colaco-Dias, Paulo]

Hi Miguel,

Firstly, I think it is quite obvious that one will necessarily hold a
passport of the country he/she is a citizen of. Unless, of course, you
know people who hold passports of countries they are not citizens of????
Pardon me; I could not understand what you meant. Rui clearly stated he
is a Portuguese citizen from birth. So, obviously he holds a Portuguese
passport (or am I missing something here?)
Maybe you wish to refer to those who claim they are Indian citizens and
hold other passports for convenience and opportunism? Perhaps? I know
there are thousands of those!
Also, when referring to your cousin, why did you mention "His parents
were Portuguese nationals of Goan birth/descent"? Weren't your parents
in the same situation? And don't you think that is the case for the
very large majority of members in this forum?
The word that comes to my mind is redundancy. And there is a lot of it
in your post.

Secondly, I cannot understand why you brought Mocambique into this
thread. Unless, of course, you wanted to introduce your most important
relatives who were there too serving the first president of that
Republic? Fair enough. OK. I am now aware of that.

Thirdly, no points given for your sarcasm. Rui's posts in this forum
have been responses to false statements and non-factual based opinions.
It all started with you issuing false statements (at least twice and
both with extreme confidence) that Fundacao Oriente runs casinos in
Macau, to which Rui thought it deserved correction to re-establish the
truth. Of course, many other members of this forum also knew the truth,
but then, it probably did not serve their agenda to correct false
statements of this kind. No. It is far better and more important to
criticize the way the Portuguese restore their monuments and keep the
Portuguese bashing very much alive.

Fourthly, I do not think Rui was giving his advice to anyone. He was
merely expressing his opinions. As you must have noted, all of Rui's
posts were responses to other posts (you yourself referred to them as
"quite well balanced and almost fair" opinions).
As I recall, it wasn't Rui who started comparing Goa/India with
Portugal. I, myself, do not see much sense in that comparison. But it
all started when he merely replied to observations like Goa achieved
democracy at least 10 years before Portugal. I am still to be convinced
what kind of democracy that was.
- How many years after 1961 was statehood achieved and Konkani language
recognized?
- When did Goans vote/decide for integration/merger with India?
- When was the instrument of accession and/or instrument of merger
proposed and signed?
- And what kind of liberation is this when an alien government takes
over a territory by force, imposes their law and does not even care for
the population's opinion? (ever!). Very good democracy indeed. And of
course, almost the same happened in all the other princely states just
after 1947. But at least in those states, the respective maharaja's were
"democratically" forced (or shall I say persuaded) to sign the
instruments of accession and merger (with perhaps the exception of
Kashmir who never signed the instrument of merger). In Goa, we were not
even given the choice (before or after 1961). It would have been nice to
have been given the choice after 1961. I would have expected at least
that from the so called largest democracy of the world.
And please, do not try to convince me we were all Indians in Goa anyway
and that India existed as a country for a million years so Goa should
have been also given back to India. We were all Indians just like the
Pakistanis were all Indians! So, why don't we call them Indians too? As
for the country we now call the Republic of India, it is nothing else
but a post-British period invention with 56 years now. And Goa, was
never before a part of it!

Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself. I cannot remember
anyone asking you to represent all of us Goans in this forum. You
certainly do not represent me. I respect your opinion but we are all
different individuals and certainly have different ideas. Like Rui, I am
here to discuss my opinions, not to advice anyone.

BTW, will I ever have the pleasure of knowing your surname? Is it
Braganca? Or are you too ashamed of your Portuguese surname to mention
it?

No cheers today!

Paulo Colaco Dias



-----Original Message-----
From: Miguel [mailto:miguel12 at sancharnet.in]
To: goanet at goanet.org



Dear Netters,

[Bernado Colaco]

Marlon,

Your statement about me (bigoted)is sheer crap like
the rest of the bharatis vomiting (look at the chap
who brought in figs. on infant mortality etc) on
Goanet. I guess you are East African returned to Goa
by Amin or Moi and basically do not have a clue as to
what happened in Goa after 61.

If you if you have any info post 61 I will be to glad
to discuss.

Xac

--- Marlon Menezes <marlon at goacom.com> wrote: > There
is no doubt that Portugal is on the whole a

Post by Marlon Menezes
much
better place than Goa ..except for the fact that
they
speak portuguese over there - a very big problem for
us english speakers.
The other issue of course is whether Goa would have
been better off economically under Portugal than
under
India. Again, I am pretty sure Goa would have made a
lot more progress if it were to have remained under
Portugal than come under India. Portugal of course
has
a rich source of funds from the EEC as compared to
India. The argument of compensation by Portugal for
colonialization that some people put forth is pretty
weak in my opinion. The local population needs to
take
responsibility and ownership for most of the ills
that
afflict them rather than blame the foreigners. We
cant
keep blaming others for events that took place half
a
century ago. This argument, of course, works both
ways. There are individuals on Goanet like Bernado
Colaco (Xacuti) who blame the "outsiders" (code for
non-christians?) for all the alleged problems being
suffered by Goans today. This is absolutely
ridiculous
and borders on being xenophobic if not bigoted.
Moving back to the debate of Portugal vs India, it
is
pretty clear to me that from a tactical point of
view
Goa would have been better off economically being
under Portugal. However from a long term strategic
point of view, I think Goa will be better off being
under India. Most of the forward looking indicators
-
population growth/demographics, current and
projected
economic growth etc all seem to suggest greater
economic potential in China and India as opposed to
Europe.
Marlon

Post by Rui Collaco
I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they
are very good. But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a
period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of
the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't
mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the

third

Post by Rui Collaco
world and considerably
better than those of India. In fact, it is because
Goa already had a
headstart that it was able to progress faster.

Small

Post by Rui Collaco
wonder that today it is
the state with the best indicators in India (on

the

Post by Rui Collaco
whole). Irrespective of
who is in power, some social indicators have been
improving continuously all
over the world (except for half a dozen war-torn
countries). It isn't a case
of Goa being able to be singled out for that. The
infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961. Today it is
lower than that of the
UK!

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[Marlon Menezes]

Xac,

Sorry to inform you that neither I nor my parents have
ever set foot on the continent of Africa. According to
my mother, I was born in Mapusa.

I am however curious to know what makes you think I am
an East African returnee. This is pretty bizzare
considering I was not even born when these events took
place.

Anyway, if you feel so strongly about the present
state of affairs in Goa, why dont YOU go and do
something about it, rather than moan and groan about
it from your rocking chair. The fact that you have not
really taken any concrete actions to support your
objectives suggests to me that you are either not very
serious about your alleged cause or are incredibly
lazy and expect others to do your work for you.

Marlon

Post by Bernado Colaco
Marlon,

I guess you are East African returned to Goa

Post by Bernado Colaco
by Amin or Moi and basically do not have a clue as
to
what happened in Goa after 61.
If you if you have any info post 61 I will be to
glad
to discuss.
Xac

[Rui Collaco]

Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on Goanet. That's
my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given by "Gilbert" (why
don't people identify themselves on Goanet?), seemed very good to me, for a
third world region. Some of them may even be true. However, if you check the
Union Budget 2003-2004, Economic Survey 2002-2003/Statistical Table/Human
Development Indicators/9.5 State-wise infant mortality rate
(http://indiabudget.nic.in), you get the following figures:

Infant mortality rate

1961 2001

India 115 71
Goa 57 36

This means that according to this most credible of Indian sources of
information, in 1961 the infant mortality rate in Goa was 57 (per 1000 live
births), half the rate for India, and in 2001 (forty years later) it was 36,
still half the rate of India as a whole, but not even half the rate of 40
years before. What an achievement to boast about!
Gilbert was claiming that the rate for Goa was 70 in 1961, and is now 11! He
should check on his sources, unless he invented those rates. There are no
miracles these days, and I haven't heard about the Sultan of Brunei buying
up Goa, so there's no way the infant mortality rate could come down from 36
to 11 per thousand in two years!!! Or are we to conclude that Indian
statistics are a free-for-all?
This is what I call misinformation, whether deliberate or by negligence.

One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5. The
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development Report-2003.

Rui Manuel Colla?o

Lisbon

From: "gilbert" <gilmen30 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour?
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:05:20 -0000

Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that the

neocolonial rulers

from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in

these 42

years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule!

How would you justify such a statement?
Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have
researched or is this a personal opinion based on your

circumstances and

prejudices.
--
Tariq Siddiqui

-------------
Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy
rate in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate
33 per thousand. Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per
thousand, birth rate 15 per thousand. Believe it or not, life
expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is 76 years. Other
indicators are not comparible, however. Collaco states that Goans
visiting Portugal will feel Shock and Awe! Having travelled widely
all over the World, I find that a bit hard to swallow. Portugal is
great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less. Although there is a
lot more to see, eat and drink in other European countries with a
Latin flavour like Italy and Spain.
regards, Gilbert.
##########################################################################
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# PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts #
# More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ #
# Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others #
##########################################################################

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[Rui Collaco]

I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they are very good. But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the third world and considerably
better than those of India. In fact, it is because Goa already had a
headstart that it was able to progress faster. Small wonder that today it is
the state with the best indicators in India (on the whole). Irrespective of
who is in power, some social indicators have been improving continuously all
over the world (except for half a dozen war-torn countries). It isn't a case
of Goa being able to be singled out for that. The infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961. Today it is lower than that of the
UK!

You claim that there's a lot more to see, eat and drink in other european
countries...like Italy and Spain. Here's another brilliant example of how
hollow some remarks made on Goanet can sound. Obviously there's more to see
in those countries - Portugal is one fifth the size of Spain and Italy has
almost 6 times our population! Could it be otherwise? These are things that
you can't change, can you? Now to say that there's more to eat and drink in
those countries....that's puzzling! You refer to quantity, quality? It seems
obvious to me that you've never been in Portugal. If you did, you did not
eat in any quality restaurant here. Our gastronomy is amazing, our wines are
excellent, this is precisely what tourists keep praising about Portugal. By
comparison, eating in Spain can be very disappointing. In any case, what we
eat and drink is a matter of personal taste and choice, and as such
subjective!

I did not say that Goans visiting Portugal would feel shock and awe. I said
that some that I received at the airport and accompanied here did. They
could hardly disguise their amazement with Lisbon and the country in
general. See the difference between what I said and what you claim that I
said? It's the difference between being rigorous or careless quoting others!

Rui Manuel Colla?o

Lisbon

From: "gilbert" <gilmen30 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour?
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:05:20 -0000

Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that the

neocolonial rulers

from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in

these 42

years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule!

How would you justify such a statement?
Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have
researched or is this a personal opinion based on your

circumstances and

prejudices.
--
Tariq Siddiqui

-------------
Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy
rate in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate
33 per thousand. Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per
thousand, birth rate 15 per thousand. Believe it or not, life
expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is 76 years. Other
indicators are not comparible, however. Collaco states that Goans
visiting Portugal will feel Shock and Awe! Having travelled widely
all over the World, I find that a bit hard to swallow. Portugal is
great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less. Although there is a
lot more to see, eat and drink in other European countries with a
Latin flavour like Italy and Spain.
regards, Gilbert.
##########################################################################
# Send submissions for Goanet to goanet at goanet.org #
# PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts #
# More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ #
# Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others #
##########################################################################

_________________________________________________________________
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[Miguel]

Dear Netters,

From the text of the postings from Rui two things are clear:
1.He believes he is Portuguese( Absolutely nothing wrong in that: He was
born a Portuguese national in Mocambique.He lives as a Portuguese
national,citizen ,and most probably[he has not stated this in any of his
postings that I have read],is a Portuguese passport holder.There is no
dichotomy in his thinking.)
2.He does not accept the independence of Mocambique as having any effect on
him by virtue of having been born in that country or growing up there. It is
not his native land,he was just born there.[ His response to the
independence is the third option. My uncle came back to Goa after 1975.His
first cousin,Aquino Braganca, stayed back as the Advisor to the first
President of Mocambique,Samora Machel,and died with him in a plane crash.
'Gosto e relative': Tastes differ!] His parents were Portuguese nationals of
Goan birth/descent.He is Portuguese .

Having said that,I do not understand why he waxes eloquent on Goa (pre- and
post- liberation/invasion of 1961) What is Goa to him: a topic for
discussion on the Goanet?Like Mocambique or Timor is to many Goans?His
interest in Goa and Goans is as academic as my interest in Pangea and the
primates or the stne age man.

Or is there some emotional bonding with Goa.Saudades,perhaps,lying hidden
below his consciousness. Eating chocolates is reported to help overcome
bouts of such feelings.[ in vivo research was done on jilted lovers or those
prone to unrequited romance] Bernado does not need to eat chocolates for ,as
one psycho-analyst friend once said to me,"The love of oneself is the
beginning of a life-long romance."That should sustain him till the grave.

Lastly,if Goans have been able to handle their birth rate,mortality
rates,life expectancy,per capita income,politicians ,elections and social
indicators to be the best state in India and live just one year less that
our brethren in Portugal,do we really need advice from good
intentioned,well-meaning ,well educated and widely travelled Portuguese
citizens???

If we need, we will ask. We even have the email IDs of possible consultants
in this context. Why the unsolicited advice ad nauseam?
To his credit,I will say that Rui has kept his postings quite well balanced
and almost fair.That I do not agree with his assesment and compulsion to
advise us Goans in Goa how to be more Goan [Mais papista du que Papa--More
Pope-like than the Pope himself] is another matter. I hope we can wind up
this thread on the so-called 'bharati invasion' (the Portuguese have every
right to think of it that way) of 1961 and move on to topics of mutual
benefit. This benefits no one. There is no question of Rui repatriating to
Goa: he is not an ex-patriate from here.He is happily living in his Patria.
He should let us live peacefully in our Matria,Amchem Goem amkam zai!!

Warm regards to all,

Miguel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>

*I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they are very good.* But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the third world and considerably
better than those of India. * The infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961.* Today it is lower than that of the
UK!

Comment: What we have achieved in 42 years makes us happy.If you are happy
with what Portugal has achieved in 28 years,I am happy for you. If not,one
may have to find a good dictator for Portugal again.Floriano may like to
join you in case the latter is true. His recent posting says that he misses
Antonio Oliviera Salazar.

In any case, what we eat and drink is *a matter of personal taste and
choice,* and as such

subjective!

Comment: Absolutely! The same applies for what we think,speak,write or post
on the net. When we eat and drink we should not puke or get inebriated as to
be a nuisance to others.Ditto for talking,writing and posting on the net.

I did not say that Goans visiting Portugal would feel shock and awe. I said
that some that I received at the airport and accompanied here did.

Comment: No comments on the type of people you accompanied.That's a personal
choice you made.

Rui Manuel Colla?o
Lisbon

Miguel Arcanjo de Braganca
Mapusa, Goa.
Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that theneocolonial rulers
from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in these 42
years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule!
Rui
How would you justify such a statement?
Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have
researched or is this a personal opinion based on your
circumstances and prejudices.
Tariq Siddiqui

-------------
Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy rate

in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate 33 per
thousand.
Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per thousand, birth rate 15 per
thousand.
Believe it or not, life expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is
76 years.
Portugal is great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less.
Gilbert.




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[Marlon Menezes]

There is no doubt that Portugal is on the whole a much
better place than Goa ..except for the fact that they
speak portuguese over there - a very big problem for
us english speakers.

The other issue of course is whether Goa would have
been better off economically under Portugal than under
India. Again, I am pretty sure Goa would have made a
lot more progress if it were to have remained under
Portugal than come under India. Portugal of course has
a rich source of funds from the EEC as compared to
India. The argument of compensation by Portugal for
colonialization that some people put forth is pretty
weak in my opinion. The local population needs to take
responsibility and ownership for most of the ills that
afflict them rather than blame the foreigners. We cant
keep blaming others for events that took place half a
century ago. This argument, of course, works both
ways. There are individuals on Goanet like Bernado
Colaco (Xacuti) who blame the "outsiders" (code for
non-christians?) for all the alleged problems being
suffered by Goans today. This is absolutely ridiculous
and borders on being xenophobic if not bigoted.

Moving back to the debate of Portugal vs India, it is
pretty clear to me that from a tactical point of view
Goa would have been better off economically being
under Portugal. However from a long term strategic
point of view, I think Goa will be better off being
under India. Most of the forward looking indicators -
population growth/demographics, current and projected
economic growth etc all seem to suggest greater
economic potential in China and India as opposed to
Europe.

Marlon

Post by Rui Collaco
I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they
are very good. But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a
period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of
the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't
mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the third
world and considerably
better than those of India. In fact, it is because
Goa already had a
headstart that it was able to progress faster. Small
wonder that today it is
the state with the best indicators in India (on the
whole). Irrespective of
who is in power, some social indicators have been
improving continuously all
over the world (except for half a dozen war-torn
countries). It isn't a case
of Goa being able to be singled out for that. The
infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961. Today it is
lower than that of the
UK!

[Colaco-Dias, Paulo]

Hi Miguel,

Firstly, I think it is quite obvious that one will necessarily hold a
passport of the country he/she is a citizen of. Unless, of course, you
know people who hold passports of countries they are not citizens of????
Pardon me; I could not understand what you meant. Rui clearly stated he
is a Portuguese citizen from birth. So, obviously he holds a Portuguese
passport (or am I missing something here?)
Maybe you wish to refer to those who claim they are Indian citizens and
hold other passports for convenience and opportunism? Perhaps? I know
there are thousands of those!
Also, when referring to your cousin, why did you mention "His parents
were Portuguese nationals of Goan birth/descent"? Weren't your parents
in the same situation? And don't you think that is the case for the
very large majority of members in this forum?
The word that comes to my mind is redundancy. And there is a lot of it
in your post.

Secondly, I cannot understand why you brought Mocambique into this
thread. Unless, of course, you wanted to introduce your most important
relatives who were there too serving the first president of that
Republic? Fair enough. OK. I am now aware of that.

Thirdly, no points given for your sarcasm. Rui's posts in this forum
have been responses to false statements and non-factual based opinions.
It all started with you issuing false statements (at least twice and
both with extreme confidence) that Fundacao Oriente runs casinos in
Macau, to which Rui thought it deserved correction to re-establish the
truth. Of course, many other members of this forum also knew the truth,
but then, it probably did not serve their agenda to correct false
statements of this kind. No. It is far better and more important to
criticize the way the Portuguese restore their monuments and keep the
Portuguese bashing very much alive.

Fourthly, I do not think Rui was giving his advice to anyone. He was
merely expressing his opinions. As you must have noted, all of Rui's
posts were responses to other posts (you yourself referred to them as
"quite well balanced and almost fair" opinions).
As I recall, it wasn't Rui who started comparing Goa/India with
Portugal. I, myself, do not see much sense in that comparison. But it
all started when he merely replied to observations like Goa achieved
democracy at least 10 years before Portugal. I am still to be convinced
what kind of democracy that was.
- How many years after 1961 was statehood achieved and Konkani language
recognized?
- When did Goans vote/decide for integration/merger with India?
- When was the instrument of accession and/or instrument of merger
proposed and signed?
- And what kind of liberation is this when an alien government takes
over a territory by force, imposes their law and does not even care for
the population's opinion? (ever!). Very good democracy indeed. And of
course, almost the same happened in all the other princely states just
after 1947. But at least in those states, the respective maharaja's were
"democratically" forced (or shall I say persuaded) to sign the
instruments of accession and merger (with perhaps the exception of
Kashmir who never signed the instrument of merger). In Goa, we were not
even given the choice (before or after 1961). It would have been nice to
have been given the choice after 1961. I would have expected at least
that from the so called largest democracy of the world.
And please, do not try to convince me we were all Indians in Goa anyway
and that India existed as a country for a million years so Goa should
have been also given back to India. We were all Indians just like the
Pakistanis were all Indians! So, why don't we call them Indians too? As
for the country we now call the Republic of India, it is nothing else
but a post-British period invention with 56 years now. And Goa, was
never before a part of it!

Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself. I cannot remember
anyone asking you to represent all of us Goans in this forum. You
certainly do not represent me. I respect your opinion but we are all
different individuals and certainly have different ideas. Like Rui, I am
here to discuss my opinions, not to advice anyone.

BTW, will I ever have the pleasure of knowing your surname? Is it
Braganca? Or are you too ashamed of your Portuguese surname to mention
it?

No cheers today!

Paulo Colaco Dias



-----Original Message-----
From: Miguel [mailto:miguel12 at sancharnet.in]
To: goanet at goanet.org



Dear Netters,

[Bernado Colaco]

Marlon,

Your statement about me (bigoted)is sheer crap like
the rest of the bharatis vomiting (look at the chap
who brought in figs. on infant mortality etc) on
Goanet. I guess you are East African returned to Goa
by Amin or Moi and basically do not have a clue as to
what happened in Goa after 61.

If you if you have any info post 61 I will be to glad
to discuss.

Xac

--- Marlon Menezes <marlon at goacom.com> wrote: > There
is no doubt that Portugal is on the whole a

Post by Marlon Menezes
much
better place than Goa ..except for the fact that
they
speak portuguese over there - a very big problem for
us english speakers.
The other issue of course is whether Goa would have
been better off economically under Portugal than
under
India. Again, I am pretty sure Goa would have made a
lot more progress if it were to have remained under
Portugal than come under India. Portugal of course
has
a rich source of funds from the EEC as compared to
India. The argument of compensation by Portugal for
colonialization that some people put forth is pretty
weak in my opinion. The local population needs to
take
responsibility and ownership for most of the ills
that
afflict them rather than blame the foreigners. We
cant
keep blaming others for events that took place half
a
century ago. This argument, of course, works both
ways. There are individuals on Goanet like Bernado
Colaco (Xacuti) who blame the "outsiders" (code for
non-christians?) for all the alleged problems being
suffered by Goans today. This is absolutely
ridiculous
and borders on being xenophobic if not bigoted.
Moving back to the debate of Portugal vs India, it
is
pretty clear to me that from a tactical point of
view
Goa would have been better off economically being
under Portugal. However from a long term strategic
point of view, I think Goa will be better off being
under India. Most of the forward looking indicators
-
population growth/demographics, current and
projected
economic growth etc all seem to suggest greater
economic potential in China and India as opposed to
Europe.
Marlon

Post by Rui Collaco
I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they
are very good. But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a
period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of
the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't
mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the

third

Post by Rui Collaco
world and considerably
better than those of India. In fact, it is because
Goa already had a
headstart that it was able to progress faster.

Small

Post by Rui Collaco
wonder that today it is
the state with the best indicators in India (on

the

Post by Rui Collaco
whole). Irrespective of
who is in power, some social indicators have been
improving continuously all
over the world (except for half a dozen war-torn
countries). It isn't a case
of Goa being able to be singled out for that. The
infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961. Today it is
lower than that of the
UK!

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html

[Marlon Menezes]

Xac,

Sorry to inform you that neither I nor my parents have
ever set foot on the continent of Africa. According to
my mother, I was born in Mapusa.

I am however curious to know what makes you think I am
an East African returnee. This is pretty bizzare
considering I was not even born when these events took
place.

Anyway, if you feel so strongly about the present
state of affairs in Goa, why dont YOU go and do
something about it, rather than moan and groan about
it from your rocking chair. The fact that you have not
really taken any concrete actions to support your
objectives suggests to me that you are either not very
serious about your alleged cause or are incredibly
lazy and expect others to do your work for you.

Marlon

Post by Bernado Colaco
Marlon,

I guess you are East African returned to Goa

Post by Bernado Colaco
by Amin or Moi and basically do not have a clue as
to
what happened in Goa after 61.
If you if you have any info post 61 I will be to
glad
to discuss.
Xac

[Rui Collaco]

Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on Goanet. That's
my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given by "Gilbert" (why
don't people identify themselves on Goanet?), seemed very good to me, for a
third world region. Some of them may even be true. However, if you check the
Union Budget 2003-2004, Economic Survey 2002-2003/Statistical Table/Human
Development Indicators/9.5 State-wise infant mortality rate
(http://indiabudget.nic.in), you get the following figures:

Infant mortality rate

1961 2001

India 115 71
Goa 57 36

This means that according to this most credible of Indian sources of
information, in 1961 the infant mortality rate in Goa was 57 (per 1000 live
births), half the rate for India, and in 2001 (forty years later) it was 36,
still half the rate of India as a whole, but not even half the rate of 40
years before. What an achievement to boast about!
Gilbert was claiming that the rate for Goa was 70 in 1961, and is now 11! He
should check on his sources, unless he invented those rates. There are no
miracles these days, and I haven't heard about the Sultan of Brunei buying
up Goa, so there's no way the infant mortality rate could come down from 36
to 11 per thousand in two years!!! Or are we to conclude that Indian
statistics are a free-for-all?
This is what I call misinformation, whether deliberate or by negligence.

One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5. The
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development Report-2003.

Rui Manuel Colla?o

Lisbon

From: "gilbert" <gilmen30 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour?
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:05:20 -0000

Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that the

neocolonial rulers

from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in

these 42

years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule!

How would you justify such a statement?
Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have
researched or is this a personal opinion based on your

circumstances and

prejudices.
--
Tariq Siddiqui

-------------
Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy
rate in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate
33 per thousand. Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per
thousand, birth rate 15 per thousand. Believe it or not, life
expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is 76 years. Other
indicators are not comparible, however. Collaco states that Goans
visiting Portugal will feel Shock and Awe! Having travelled widely
all over the World, I find that a bit hard to swallow. Portugal is
great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less. Although there is a
lot more to see, eat and drink in other European countries with a
Latin flavour like Italy and Spain.
regards, Gilbert.
##########################################################################
# Send submissions for Goanet to goanet at goanet.org #
# PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts #
# More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ #
# Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others #
##########################################################################

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[Rui Collaco]

I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they are very good. But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the third world and considerably
better than those of India. In fact, it is because Goa already had a
headstart that it was able to progress faster. Small wonder that today it is
the state with the best indicators in India (on the whole). Irrespective of
who is in power, some social indicators have been improving continuously all
over the world (except for half a dozen war-torn countries). It isn't a case
of Goa being able to be singled out for that. The infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961. Today it is lower than that of the
UK!

You claim that there's a lot more to see, eat and drink in other european
countries...like Italy and Spain. Here's another brilliant example of how
hollow some remarks made on Goanet can sound. Obviously there's more to see
in those countries - Portugal is one fifth the size of Spain and Italy has
almost 6 times our population! Could it be otherwise? These are things that
you can't change, can you? Now to say that there's more to eat and drink in
those countries....that's puzzling! You refer to quantity, quality? It seems
obvious to me that you've never been in Portugal. If you did, you did not
eat in any quality restaurant here. Our gastronomy is amazing, our wines are
excellent, this is precisely what tourists keep praising about Portugal. By
comparison, eating in Spain can be very disappointing. In any case, what we
eat and drink is a matter of personal taste and choice, and as such
subjective!

I did not say that Goans visiting Portugal would feel shock and awe. I said
that some that I received at the airport and accompanied here did. They
could hardly disguise their amazement with Lisbon and the country in
general. See the difference between what I said and what you claim that I
said? It's the difference between being rigorous or careless quoting others!

Rui Manuel Colla?o

Lisbon

From: "gilbert" <gilmen30 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour?
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:05:20 -0000

Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that the

neocolonial rulers

from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in

these 42

years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule!

How would you justify such a statement?
Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have
researched or is this a personal opinion based on your

circumstances and

prejudices.
--
Tariq Siddiqui

-------------
Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy
rate in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate
33 per thousand. Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per
thousand, birth rate 15 per thousand. Believe it or not, life
expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is 76 years. Other
indicators are not comparible, however. Collaco states that Goans
visiting Portugal will feel Shock and Awe! Having travelled widely
all over the World, I find that a bit hard to swallow. Portugal is
great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less. Although there is a
lot more to see, eat and drink in other European countries with a
Latin flavour like Italy and Spain.
regards, Gilbert.
##########################################################################
# Send submissions for Goanet to goanet at goanet.org #
# PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts #
# More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ #
# Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others #
##########################################################################

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[Miguel]

Dear Netters,

From the text of the postings from Rui two things are clear:
1.He believes he is Portuguese( Absolutely nothing wrong in that: He was
born a Portuguese national in Mocambique.He lives as a Portuguese
national,citizen ,and most probably[he has not stated this in any of his
postings that I have read],is a Portuguese passport holder.There is no
dichotomy in his thinking.)
2.He does not accept the independence of Mocambique as having any effect on
him by virtue of having been born in that country or growing up there. It is
not his native land,he was just born there.[ His response to the
independence is the third option. My uncle came back to Goa after 1975.His
first cousin,Aquino Braganca, stayed back as the Advisor to the first
President of Mocambique,Samora Machel,and died with him in a plane crash.
'Gosto e relative': Tastes differ!] His parents were Portuguese nationals of
Goan birth/descent.He is Portuguese .

Having said that,I do not understand why he waxes eloquent on Goa (pre- and
post- liberation/invasion of 1961) What is Goa to him: a topic for
discussion on the Goanet?Like Mocambique or Timor is to many Goans?His
interest in Goa and Goans is as academic as my interest in Pangea and the
primates or the stne age man.

Or is there some emotional bonding with Goa.Saudades,perhaps,lying hidden
below his consciousness. Eating chocolates is reported to help overcome
bouts of such feelings.[ in vivo research was done on jilted lovers or those
prone to unrequited romance] Bernado does not need to eat chocolates for ,as
one psycho-analyst friend once said to me,"The love of oneself is the
beginning of a life-long romance."That should sustain him till the grave.

Lastly,if Goans have been able to handle their birth rate,mortality
rates,life expectancy,per capita income,politicians ,elections and social
indicators to be the best state in India and live just one year less that
our brethren in Portugal,do we really need advice from good
intentioned,well-meaning ,well educated and widely travelled Portuguese
citizens???

If we need, we will ask. We even have the email IDs of possible consultants
in this context. Why the unsolicited advice ad nauseam?
To his credit,I will say that Rui has kept his postings quite well balanced
and almost fair.That I do not agree with his assesment and compulsion to
advise us Goans in Goa how to be more Goan [Mais papista du que Papa--More
Pope-like than the Pope himself] is another matter. I hope we can wind up
this thread on the so-called 'bharati invasion' (the Portuguese have every
right to think of it that way) of 1961 and move on to topics of mutual
benefit. This benefits no one. There is no question of Rui repatriating to
Goa: he is not an ex-patriate from here.He is happily living in his Patria.
He should let us live peacefully in our Matria,Amchem Goem amkam zai!!

Warm regards to all,

Miguel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>

*I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they are very good.* But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the third world and considerably
better than those of India. * The infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961.* Today it is lower than that of the
UK!

Comment: What we have achieved in 42 years makes us happy.If you are happy
with what Portugal has achieved in 28 years,I am happy for you. If not,one
may have to find a good dictator for Portugal again.Floriano may like to
join you in case the latter is true. His recent posting says that he misses
Antonio Oliviera Salazar.

In any case, what we eat and drink is *a matter of personal taste and
choice,* and as such

subjective!

Comment: Absolutely! The same applies for what we think,speak,write or post
on the net. When we eat and drink we should not puke or get inebriated as to
be a nuisance to others.Ditto for talking,writing and posting on the net.

I did not say that Goans visiting Portugal would feel shock and awe. I said
that some that I received at the airport and accompanied here did.

Comment: No comments on the type of people you accompanied.That's a personal
choice you made.

Rui Manuel Colla?o
Lisbon

Miguel Arcanjo de Braganca
Mapusa, Goa.
Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that theneocolonial rulers
from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in these 42
years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule!
Rui
How would you justify such a statement?
Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have
researched or is this a personal opinion based on your
circumstances and prejudices.
Tariq Siddiqui

-------------
Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy rate

in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate 33 per
thousand.
Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per thousand, birth rate 15 per
thousand.
Believe it or not, life expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is
76 years.
Portugal is great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less.
Gilbert.




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003

[Marlon Menezes]

There is no doubt that Portugal is on the whole a much
better place than Goa ..except for the fact that they
speak portuguese over there - a very big problem for
us english speakers.

The other issue of course is whether Goa would have
been better off economically under Portugal than under
India. Again, I am pretty sure Goa would have made a
lot more progress if it were to have remained under
Portugal than come under India. Portugal of course has
a rich source of funds from the EEC as compared to
India. The argument of compensation by Portugal for
colonialization that some people put forth is pretty
weak in my opinion. The local population needs to take
responsibility and ownership for most of the ills that
afflict them rather than blame the foreigners. We cant
keep blaming others for events that took place half a
century ago. This argument, of course, works both
ways. There are individuals on Goanet like Bernado
Colaco (Xacuti) who blame the "outsiders" (code for
non-christians?) for all the alleged problems being
suffered by Goans today. This is absolutely ridiculous
and borders on being xenophobic if not bigoted.

Moving back to the debate of Portugal vs India, it is
pretty clear to me that from a tactical point of view
Goa would have been better off economically being
under Portugal. However from a long term strategic
point of view, I think Goa will be better off being
under India. Most of the forward looking indicators -
population growth/demographics, current and projected
economic growth etc all seem to suggest greater
economic potential in China and India as opposed to
Europe.

Marlon

Post by Rui Collaco
I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they
are very good. But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a
period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of
the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't
mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the third
world and considerably
better than those of India. In fact, it is because
Goa already had a
headstart that it was able to progress faster. Small
wonder that today it is
the state with the best indicators in India (on the
whole). Irrespective of
who is in power, some social indicators have been
improving continuously all
over the world (except for half a dozen war-torn
countries). It isn't a case
of Goa being able to be singled out for that. The
infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961. Today it is
lower than that of the
UK!

[Colaco-Dias, Paulo]

Hi Miguel,

Firstly, I think it is quite obvious that one will necessarily hold a
passport of the country he/she is a citizen of. Unless, of course, you
know people who hold passports of countries they are not citizens of????
Pardon me; I could not understand what you meant. Rui clearly stated he
is a Portuguese citizen from birth. So, obviously he holds a Portuguese
passport (or am I missing something here?)
Maybe you wish to refer to those who claim they are Indian citizens and
hold other passports for convenience and opportunism? Perhaps? I know
there are thousands of those!
Also, when referring to your cousin, why did you mention "His parents
were Portuguese nationals of Goan birth/descent"? Weren't your parents
in the same situation? And don't you think that is the case for the
very large majority of members in this forum?
The word that comes to my mind is redundancy. And there is a lot of it
in your post.

Secondly, I cannot understand why you brought Mocambique into this
thread. Unless, of course, you wanted to introduce your most important
relatives who were there too serving the first president of that
Republic? Fair enough. OK. I am now aware of that.

Thirdly, no points given for your sarcasm. Rui's posts in this forum
have been responses to false statements and non-factual based opinions.
It all started with you issuing false statements (at least twice and
both with extreme confidence) that Fundacao Oriente runs casinos in
Macau, to which Rui thought it deserved correction to re-establish the
truth. Of course, many other members of this forum also knew the truth,
but then, it probably did not serve their agenda to correct false
statements of this kind. No. It is far better and more important to
criticize the way the Portuguese restore their monuments and keep the
Portuguese bashing very much alive.

Fourthly, I do not think Rui was giving his advice to anyone. He was
merely expressing his opinions. As you must have noted, all of Rui's
posts were responses to other posts (you yourself referred to them as
"quite well balanced and almost fair" opinions).
As I recall, it wasn't Rui who started comparing Goa/India with
Portugal. I, myself, do not see much sense in that comparison. But it
all started when he merely replied to observations like Goa achieved
democracy at least 10 years before Portugal. I am still to be convinced
what kind of democracy that was.
- How many years after 1961 was statehood achieved and Konkani language
recognized?
- When did Goans vote/decide for integration/merger with India?
- When was the instrument of accession and/or instrument of merger
proposed and signed?
- And what kind of liberation is this when an alien government takes
over a territory by force, imposes their law and does not even care for
the population's opinion? (ever!). Very good democracy indeed. And of
course, almost the same happened in all the other princely states just
after 1947. But at least in those states, the respective maharaja's were
"democratically" forced (or shall I say persuaded) to sign the
instruments of accession and merger (with perhaps the exception of
Kashmir who never signed the instrument of merger). In Goa, we were not
even given the choice (before or after 1961). It would have been nice to
have been given the choice after 1961. I would have expected at least
that from the so called largest democracy of the world.
And please, do not try to convince me we were all Indians in Goa anyway
and that India existed as a country for a million years so Goa should
have been also given back to India. We were all Indians just like the
Pakistanis were all Indians! So, why don't we call them Indians too? As
for the country we now call the Republic of India, it is nothing else
but a post-British period invention with 56 years now. And Goa, was
never before a part of it!

Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself. I cannot remember
anyone asking you to represent all of us Goans in this forum. You
certainly do not represent me. I respect your opinion but we are all
different individuals and certainly have different ideas. Like Rui, I am
here to discuss my opinions, not to advice anyone.

BTW, will I ever have the pleasure of knowing your surname? Is it
Braganca? Or are you too ashamed of your Portuguese surname to mention
it?

No cheers today!

Paulo Colaco Dias



-----Original Message-----
From: Miguel [mailto:miguel12 at sancharnet.in]
To: goanet at goanet.org



Dear Netters,

[Bernado Colaco]

Marlon,

Your statement about me (bigoted)is sheer crap like
the rest of the bharatis vomiting (look at the chap
who brought in figs. on infant mortality etc) on
Goanet. I guess you are East African returned to Goa
by Amin or Moi and basically do not have a clue as to
what happened in Goa after 61.

If you if you have any info post 61 I will be to glad
to discuss.

Xac

--- Marlon Menezes <marlon at goacom.com> wrote: > There
is no doubt that Portugal is on the whole a

Post by Marlon Menezes
much
better place than Goa ..except for the fact that
they
speak portuguese over there - a very big problem for
us english speakers.
The other issue of course is whether Goa would have
been better off economically under Portugal than
under
India. Again, I am pretty sure Goa would have made a
lot more progress if it were to have remained under
Portugal than come under India. Portugal of course
has
a rich source of funds from the EEC as compared to
India. The argument of compensation by Portugal for
colonialization that some people put forth is pretty
weak in my opinion. The local population needs to
take
responsibility and ownership for most of the ills
that
afflict them rather than blame the foreigners. We
cant
keep blaming others for events that took place half
a
century ago. This argument, of course, works both
ways. There are individuals on Goanet like Bernado
Colaco (Xacuti) who blame the "outsiders" (code for
non-christians?) for all the alleged problems being
suffered by Goans today. This is absolutely
ridiculous
and borders on being xenophobic if not bigoted.
Moving back to the debate of Portugal vs India, it
is
pretty clear to me that from a tactical point of
view
Goa would have been better off economically being
under Portugal. However from a long term strategic
point of view, I think Goa will be better off being
under India. Most of the forward looking indicators
-
population growth/demographics, current and
projected
economic growth etc all seem to suggest greater
economic potential in China and India as opposed to
Europe.
Marlon

Post by Rui Collaco
I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they
are very good. But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a
period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of
the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't
mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the

third

Post by Rui Collaco
world and considerably
better than those of India. In fact, it is because
Goa already had a
headstart that it was able to progress faster.

Small

Post by Rui Collaco
wonder that today it is
the state with the best indicators in India (on

the

Post by Rui Collaco
whole). Irrespective of
who is in power, some social indicators have been
improving continuously all
over the world (except for half a dozen war-torn
countries). It isn't a case
of Goa being able to be singled out for that. The
infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961. Today it is
lower than that of the
UK!

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html

[Marlon Menezes]

Xac,

Sorry to inform you that neither I nor my parents have
ever set foot on the continent of Africa. According to
my mother, I was born in Mapusa.

I am however curious to know what makes you think I am
an East African returnee. This is pretty bizzare
considering I was not even born when these events took
place.

Anyway, if you feel so strongly about the present
state of affairs in Goa, why dont YOU go and do
something about it, rather than moan and groan about
it from your rocking chair. The fact that you have not
really taken any concrete actions to support your
objectives suggests to me that you are either not very
serious about your alleged cause or are incredibly
lazy and expect others to do your work for you.

Marlon

Post by Bernado Colaco
Marlon,

I guess you are East African returned to Goa

Post by Bernado Colaco
by Amin or Moi and basically do not have a clue as
to
what happened in Goa after 61.
If you if you have any info post 61 I will be to
glad
to discuss.
Xac

[Rui Collaco]

Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on Goanet. That's
my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given by "Gilbert" (why
don't people identify themselves on Goanet?), seemed very good to me, for a
third world region. Some of them may even be true. However, if you check the
Union Budget 2003-2004, Economic Survey 2002-2003/Statistical Table/Human
Development Indicators/9.5 State-wise infant mortality rate
(http://indiabudget.nic.in), you get the following figures:

Infant mortality rate

1961 2001

India 115 71
Goa 57 36

This means that according to this most credible of Indian sources of
information, in 1961 the infant mortality rate in Goa was 57 (per 1000 live
births), half the rate for India, and in 2001 (forty years later) it was 36,
still half the rate of India as a whole, but not even half the rate of 40
years before. What an achievement to boast about!
Gilbert was claiming that the rate for Goa was 70 in 1961, and is now 11! He
should check on his sources, unless he invented those rates. There are no
miracles these days, and I haven't heard about the Sultan of Brunei buying
up Goa, so there's no way the infant mortality rate could come down from 36
to 11 per thousand in two years!!! Or are we to conclude that Indian
statistics are a free-for-all?
This is what I call misinformation, whether deliberate or by negligence.

One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5. The
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development Report-2003.

Rui Manuel Colla?o

Lisbon

From: "gilbert" <gilmen30 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour?
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:05:20 -0000

Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that the

neocolonial rulers

from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in

these 42

years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule!

How would you justify such a statement?
Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have
researched or is this a personal opinion based on your

circumstances and

prejudices.
--
Tariq Siddiqui

-------------
Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy
rate in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate
33 per thousand. Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per
thousand, birth rate 15 per thousand. Believe it or not, life
expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is 76 years. Other
indicators are not comparible, however. Collaco states that Goans
visiting Portugal will feel Shock and Awe! Having travelled widely
all over the World, I find that a bit hard to swallow. Portugal is
great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less. Although there is a
lot more to see, eat and drink in other European countries with a
Latin flavour like Italy and Spain.
regards, Gilbert.
##########################################################################
# Send submissions for Goanet to goanet at goanet.org #
# PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts #
# More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ #
# Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others #
##########################################################################

_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

[Rui Collaco]

I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they are very good. But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the third world and considerably
better than those of India. In fact, it is because Goa already had a
headstart that it was able to progress faster. Small wonder that today it is
the state with the best indicators in India (on the whole). Irrespective of
who is in power, some social indicators have been improving continuously all
over the world (except for half a dozen war-torn countries). It isn't a case
of Goa being able to be singled out for that. The infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961. Today it is lower than that of the
UK!

You claim that there's a lot more to see, eat and drink in other european
countries...like Italy and Spain. Here's another brilliant example of how
hollow some remarks made on Goanet can sound. Obviously there's more to see
in those countries - Portugal is one fifth the size of Spain and Italy has
almost 6 times our population! Could it be otherwise? These are things that
you can't change, can you? Now to say that there's more to eat and drink in
those countries....that's puzzling! You refer to quantity, quality? It seems
obvious to me that you've never been in Portugal. If you did, you did not
eat in any quality restaurant here. Our gastronomy is amazing, our wines are
excellent, this is precisely what tourists keep praising about Portugal. By
comparison, eating in Spain can be very disappointing. In any case, what we
eat and drink is a matter of personal taste and choice, and as such
subjective!

I did not say that Goans visiting Portugal would feel shock and awe. I said
that some that I received at the airport and accompanied here did. They
could hardly disguise their amazement with Lisbon and the country in
general. See the difference between what I said and what you claim that I
said? It's the difference between being rigorous or careless quoting others!

Rui Manuel Colla?o

Lisbon

From: "gilbert" <gilmen30 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour?
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:05:20 -0000

Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that the

neocolonial rulers

from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in

these 42

years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule!

How would you justify such a statement?
Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have
researched or is this a personal opinion based on your

circumstances and

prejudices.
--
Tariq Siddiqui

-------------
Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy
rate in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate
33 per thousand. Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per
thousand, birth rate 15 per thousand. Believe it or not, life
expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is 76 years. Other
indicators are not comparible, however. Collaco states that Goans
visiting Portugal will feel Shock and Awe! Having travelled widely
all over the World, I find that a bit hard to swallow. Portugal is
great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less. Although there is a
lot more to see, eat and drink in other European countries with a
Latin flavour like Italy and Spain.
regards, Gilbert.
##########################################################################
# Send submissions for Goanet to goanet at goanet.org #
# PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts #
# More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ #
# Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others #
##########################################################################

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Messenger: converse com os seus amigos online.
http://messenger.msn.com.br

[Miguel]

Dear Netters,

From the text of the postings from Rui two things are clear:
1.He believes he is Portuguese( Absolutely nothing wrong in that: He was
born a Portuguese national in Mocambique.He lives as a Portuguese
national,citizen ,and most probably[he has not stated this in any of his
postings that I have read],is a Portuguese passport holder.There is no
dichotomy in his thinking.)
2.He does not accept the independence of Mocambique as having any effect on
him by virtue of having been born in that country or growing up there. It is
not his native land,he was just born there.[ His response to the
independence is the third option. My uncle came back to Goa after 1975.His
first cousin,Aquino Braganca, stayed back as the Advisor to the first
President of Mocambique,Samora Machel,and died with him in a plane crash.
'Gosto e relative': Tastes differ!] His parents were Portuguese nationals of
Goan birth/descent.He is Portuguese .

Having said that,I do not understand why he waxes eloquent on Goa (pre- and
post- liberation/invasion of 1961) What is Goa to him: a topic for
discussion on the Goanet?Like Mocambique or Timor is to many Goans?His
interest in Goa and Goans is as academic as my interest in Pangea and the
primates or the stne age man.

Or is there some emotional bonding with Goa.Saudades,perhaps,lying hidden
below his consciousness. Eating chocolates is reported to help overcome
bouts of such feelings.[ in vivo research was done on jilted lovers or those
prone to unrequited romance] Bernado does not need to eat chocolates for ,as
one psycho-analyst friend once said to me,"The love of oneself is the
beginning of a life-long romance."That should sustain him till the grave.

Lastly,if Goans have been able to handle their birth rate,mortality
rates,life expectancy,per capita income,politicians ,elections and social
indicators to be the best state in India and live just one year less that
our brethren in Portugal,do we really need advice from good
intentioned,well-meaning ,well educated and widely travelled Portuguese
citizens???

If we need, we will ask. We even have the email IDs of possible consultants
in this context. Why the unsolicited advice ad nauseam?
To his credit,I will say that Rui has kept his postings quite well balanced
and almost fair.That I do not agree with his assesment and compulsion to
advise us Goans in Goa how to be more Goan [Mais papista du que Papa--More
Pope-like than the Pope himself] is another matter. I hope we can wind up
this thread on the so-called 'bharati invasion' (the Portuguese have every
right to think of it that way) of 1961 and move on to topics of mutual
benefit. This benefits no one. There is no question of Rui repatriating to
Goa: he is not an ex-patriate from here.He is happily living in his Patria.
He should let us live peacefully in our Matria,Amchem Goem amkam zai!!

Warm regards to all,

Miguel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>

*I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they are very good.* But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the third world and considerably
better than those of India. * The infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961.* Today it is lower than that of the
UK!

Comment: What we have achieved in 42 years makes us happy.If you are happy
with what Portugal has achieved in 28 years,I am happy for you. If not,one
may have to find a good dictator for Portugal again.Floriano may like to
join you in case the latter is true. His recent posting says that he misses
Antonio Oliviera Salazar.

In any case, what we eat and drink is *a matter of personal taste and
choice,* and as such

subjective!

Comment: Absolutely! The same applies for what we think,speak,write or post
on the net. When we eat and drink we should not puke or get inebriated as to
be a nuisance to others.Ditto for talking,writing and posting on the net.

I did not say that Goans visiting Portugal would feel shock and awe. I said
that some that I received at the airport and accompanied here did.

Comment: No comments on the type of people you accompanied.That's a personal
choice you made.

Rui Manuel Colla?o
Lisbon

Miguel Arcanjo de Braganca
Mapusa, Goa.
Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that theneocolonial rulers
from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in these 42
years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule!
Rui
How would you justify such a statement?
Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have
researched or is this a personal opinion based on your
circumstances and prejudices.
Tariq Siddiqui

-------------
Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy rate

in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate 33 per
thousand.
Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per thousand, birth rate 15 per
thousand.
Believe it or not, life expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is
76 years.
Portugal is great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less.
Gilbert.




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003

[Marlon Menezes]

There is no doubt that Portugal is on the whole a much
better place than Goa ..except for the fact that they
speak portuguese over there - a very big problem for
us english speakers.

The other issue of course is whether Goa would have
been better off economically under Portugal than under
India. Again, I am pretty sure Goa would have made a
lot more progress if it were to have remained under
Portugal than come under India. Portugal of course has
a rich source of funds from the EEC as compared to
India. The argument of compensation by Portugal for
colonialization that some people put forth is pretty
weak in my opinion. The local population needs to take
responsibility and ownership for most of the ills that
afflict them rather than blame the foreigners. We cant
keep blaming others for events that took place half a
century ago. This argument, of course, works both
ways. There are individuals on Goanet like Bernado
Colaco (Xacuti) who blame the "outsiders" (code for
non-christians?) for all the alleged problems being
suffered by Goans today. This is absolutely ridiculous
and borders on being xenophobic if not bigoted.

Moving back to the debate of Portugal vs India, it is
pretty clear to me that from a tactical point of view
Goa would have been better off economically being
under Portugal. However from a long term strategic
point of view, I think Goa will be better off being
under India. Most of the forward looking indicators -
population growth/demographics, current and projected
economic growth etc all seem to suggest greater
economic potential in China and India as opposed to
Europe.

Marlon

Post by Rui Collaco
I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they
are very good. But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a
period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of
the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't
mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the third
world and considerably
better than those of India. In fact, it is because
Goa already had a
headstart that it was able to progress faster. Small
wonder that today it is
the state with the best indicators in India (on the
whole). Irrespective of
who is in power, some social indicators have been
improving continuously all
over the world (except for half a dozen war-torn
countries). It isn't a case
of Goa being able to be singled out for that. The
infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961. Today it is
lower than that of the
UK!

[Colaco-Dias, Paulo]

Hi Miguel,

Firstly, I think it is quite obvious that one will necessarily hold a
passport of the country he/she is a citizen of. Unless, of course, you
know people who hold passports of countries they are not citizens of????
Pardon me; I could not understand what you meant. Rui clearly stated he
is a Portuguese citizen from birth. So, obviously he holds a Portuguese
passport (or am I missing something here?)
Maybe you wish to refer to those who claim they are Indian citizens and
hold other passports for convenience and opportunism? Perhaps? I know
there are thousands of those!
Also, when referring to your cousin, why did you mention "His parents
were Portuguese nationals of Goan birth/descent"? Weren't your parents
in the same situation? And don't you think that is the case for the
very large majority of members in this forum?
The word that comes to my mind is redundancy. And there is a lot of it
in your post.

Secondly, I cannot understand why you brought Mocambique into this
thread. Unless, of course, you wanted to introduce your most important
relatives who were there too serving the first president of that
Republic? Fair enough. OK. I am now aware of that.

Thirdly, no points given for your sarcasm. Rui's posts in this forum
have been responses to false statements and non-factual based opinions.
It all started with you issuing false statements (at least twice and
both with extreme confidence) that Fundacao Oriente runs casinos in
Macau, to which Rui thought it deserved correction to re-establish the
truth. Of course, many other members of this forum also knew the truth,
but then, it probably did not serve their agenda to correct false
statements of this kind. No. It is far better and more important to
criticize the way the Portuguese restore their monuments and keep the
Portuguese bashing very much alive.

Fourthly, I do not think Rui was giving his advice to anyone. He was
merely expressing his opinions. As you must have noted, all of Rui's
posts were responses to other posts (you yourself referred to them as
"quite well balanced and almost fair" opinions).
As I recall, it wasn't Rui who started comparing Goa/India with
Portugal. I, myself, do not see much sense in that comparison. But it
all started when he merely replied to observations like Goa achieved
democracy at least 10 years before Portugal. I am still to be convinced
what kind of democracy that was.
- How many years after 1961 was statehood achieved and Konkani language
recognized?
- When did Goans vote/decide for integration/merger with India?
- When was the instrument of accession and/or instrument of merger
proposed and signed?
- And what kind of liberation is this when an alien government takes
over a territory by force, imposes their law and does not even care for
the population's opinion? (ever!). Very good democracy indeed. And of
course, almost the same happened in all the other princely states just
after 1947. But at least in those states, the respective maharaja's were
"democratically" forced (or shall I say persuaded) to sign the
instruments of accession and merger (with perhaps the exception of
Kashmir who never signed the instrument of merger). In Goa, we were not
even given the choice (before or after 1961). It would have been nice to
have been given the choice after 1961. I would have expected at least
that from the so called largest democracy of the world.
And please, do not try to convince me we were all Indians in Goa anyway
and that India existed as a country for a million years so Goa should
have been also given back to India. We were all Indians just like the
Pakistanis were all Indians! So, why don't we call them Indians too? As
for the country we now call the Republic of India, it is nothing else
but a post-British period invention with 56 years now. And Goa, was
never before a part of it!

Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself. I cannot remember
anyone asking you to represent all of us Goans in this forum. You
certainly do not represent me. I respect your opinion but we are all
different individuals and certainly have different ideas. Like Rui, I am
here to discuss my opinions, not to advice anyone.

BTW, will I ever have the pleasure of knowing your surname? Is it
Braganca? Or are you too ashamed of your Portuguese surname to mention
it?

No cheers today!

Paulo Colaco Dias



-----Original Message-----
From: Miguel [mailto:miguel12 at sancharnet.in]
To: goanet at goanet.org



Dear Netters,

[Bernado Colaco]

Marlon,

Your statement about me (bigoted)is sheer crap like
the rest of the bharatis vomiting (look at the chap
who brought in figs. on infant mortality etc) on
Goanet. I guess you are East African returned to Goa
by Amin or Moi and basically do not have a clue as to
what happened in Goa after 61.

If you if you have any info post 61 I will be to glad
to discuss.

Xac

--- Marlon Menezes <marlon at goacom.com> wrote: > There
is no doubt that Portugal is on the whole a

Post by Marlon Menezes
much
better place than Goa ..except for the fact that
they
speak portuguese over there - a very big problem for
us english speakers.
The other issue of course is whether Goa would have
been better off economically under Portugal than
under
India. Again, I am pretty sure Goa would have made a
lot more progress if it were to have remained under
Portugal than come under India. Portugal of course
has
a rich source of funds from the EEC as compared to
India. The argument of compensation by Portugal for
colonialization that some people put forth is pretty
weak in my opinion. The local population needs to
take
responsibility and ownership for most of the ills
that
afflict them rather than blame the foreigners. We
cant
keep blaming others for events that took place half
a
century ago. This argument, of course, works both
ways. There are individuals on Goanet like Bernado
Colaco (Xacuti) who blame the "outsiders" (code for
non-christians?) for all the alleged problems being
suffered by Goans today. This is absolutely
ridiculous
and borders on being xenophobic if not bigoted.
Moving back to the debate of Portugal vs India, it
is
pretty clear to me that from a tactical point of
view
Goa would have been better off economically being
under Portugal. However from a long term strategic
point of view, I think Goa will be better off being
under India. Most of the forward looking indicators
-
population growth/demographics, current and
projected
economic growth etc all seem to suggest greater
economic potential in China and India as opposed to
Europe.
Marlon

Post by Rui Collaco
I know those social indicators, Gilbert, and they
are very good. But one
must bear in mind that they were achieved over a
period of 42 years. What
else could one expect after 42 years? The rest of
the world achieved the
same and in many cases far more. What you don't
mention is that Goa's
indicators in 1961 were among the best in the

third

Post by Rui Collaco
world and considerably
better than those of India. In fact, it is because
Goa already had a
headstart that it was able to progress faster.

Small

Post by Rui Collaco
wonder that today it is
the state with the best indicators in India (on

the

Post by Rui Collaco
whole). Irrespective of
who is in power, some social indicators have been
improving continuously all
over the world (except for half a dozen war-torn
countries). It isn't a case
of Goa being able to be singled out for that. The
infant mortality rate was
quite high in Portugal itself in 1961. Today it is
lower than that of the
UK!

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/yplus/yoffer.html

[Marlon Menezes]

Xac,

Sorry to inform you that neither I nor my parents have
ever set foot on the continent of Africa. According to
my mother, I was born in Mapusa.

I am however curious to know what makes you think I am
an East African returnee. This is pretty bizzare
considering I was not even born when these events took
place.

Anyway, if you feel so strongly about the present
state of affairs in Goa, why dont YOU go and do
something about it, rather than moan and groan about
it from your rocking chair. The fact that you have not
really taken any concrete actions to support your
objectives suggests to me that you are either not very
serious about your alleged cause or are incredibly
lazy and expect others to do your work for you.

Marlon

Post by Bernado Colaco
Marlon,

I guess you are East African returned to Goa

Post by Bernado Colaco
by Amin or Moi and basically do not have a clue as
to
what happened in Goa after 61.
If you if you have any info post 61 I will be to
glad
to discuss.
Xac

[Rui Collaco]

Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on Goanet. That's
my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given by "Gilbert" (why
don't people identify themselves on Goanet?), seemed very good to me, for a
third world region. Some of them may even be true. However, if you check the
Union Budget 2003-2004, Economic Survey 2002-2003/Statistical Table/Human
Development Indicators/9.5 State-wise infant mortality rate
(http://indiabudget.nic.in), you get the following figures:

Infant mortality rate

1961 2001

India 115 71
Goa 57 36

This means that according to this most credible of Indian sources of
information, in 1961 the infant mortality rate in Goa was 57 (per 1000 live
births), half the rate for India, and in 2001 (forty years later) it was 36,
still half the rate of India as a whole, but not even half the rate of 40
years before. What an achievement to boast about!
Gilbert was claiming that the rate for Goa was 70 in 1961, and is now 11! He
should check on his sources, unless he invented those rates. There are no
miracles these days, and I haven't heard about the Sultan of Brunei buying
up Goa, so there's no way the infant mortality rate could come down from 36
to 11 per thousand in two years!!! Or are we to conclude that Indian
statistics are a free-for-all?
This is what I call misinformation, whether deliberate or by negligence.

One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5. The
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development Report-2003.

Rui Manuel Colla?o

Lisbon

From: "gilbert" <gilmen30 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Portuguese nationality a colonial favour?
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:05:20 -0000

Let's get serious, gentlemen. I hold the view that the

neocolonial rulers

from New Delhi have used and abused Goa's land and people more in

these 42

years than the Portuguese in their 451-year rule!

How would you justify such a statement?
Just curious to know if this is based on some facts that you have
researched or is this a personal opinion based on your

circumstances and

prejudices.
--
Tariq Siddiqui

-------------
Heres what the *neocolonists* have achieved--In 1961, the literacy
rate in Goa was 31%, infant mortality was 70 per thousand, birth rate
33 per thousand. Today literacy is 86%, infant mortality 11 per
thousand, birth rate 15 per thousand. Believe it or not, life
expectancy in Goa is 75 years, while Portugal it is 76 years. Other
indicators are not comparible, however. Collaco states that Goans
visiting Portugal will feel Shock and Awe! Having travelled widely
all over the World, I find that a bit hard to swallow. Portugal is
great for a holiday, nothing more, nothing less. Although there is a
lot more to see, eat and drink in other European countries with a
Latin flavour like Italy and Spain.
regards, Gilbert.
##########################################################################
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##########################################################################

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[gilbert]

In spite of your sarcasm, and allusions to misinformation, I am not
in the business of manufacturing stats. They were taken from an
article by Dr. VA Pai Panandikar in Goa Today, Aug 2003. He was the
former President of the Centre of Policy Research, New Delhi. You
may like to read the article and get a little more educated about
Goa.
BTW, since you are jumping with joy that Portugal has now overtaken
the UK in reducing infant mortality by one less baby dead, why dont
you provide all the other HDR figures which place the UK way ahead of
Portugal in the same report.
The aim of the debate was not to compare countrys indicators, but to
rebut your wild and insubstantiated allegation that *neocolonists*
had ruined Goa since 1961. If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960
and again in 2000, and saw the all round improvement of all social
parameters, I can assure you that we would not be having this debate
in the first place.
regards, Gilbert--and thats my name.

Post by Rui Collaco
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on

Goanet. That's

Post by Rui Collaco
my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given by

"Gilbert" (why

Post by Rui Collaco
don't people identify themselves on Goanet?), seemed very good to

me, for a

Post by Rui Collaco
third world region. Some of them may even be true. However, if you

check the

Post by Rui Collaco
Union Budget 2003-2004, Economic Survey 2002-2003/Statistical

Table/Human

Post by Rui Collaco
Development Indicators/9.5 State-wise infant mortality rate
Infant mortality rate
1961 2001
India 115 71
Goa 57 36
This means that according to this most credible of Indian sources

of

Post by Rui Collaco
information, in 1961 the infant mortality rate in Goa was 57 (per

1000 live

Post by Rui Collaco
births), half the rate for India, and in 2001 (forty years later)

it was 36,

Post by Rui Collaco
still half the rate of India as a whole, but not even half the rate

of 40

Post by Rui Collaco
years before. What an achievement to boast about!
Gilbert was claiming that the rate for Goa was 70 in 1961, and is

now 11! He

Post by Rui Collaco
should check on his sources, unless he invented those rates. There

are no

Post by Rui Collaco
miracles these days, and I haven't heard about the Sultan of Brunei

buying

Post by Rui Collaco
up Goa, so there's no way the infant mortality rate could come down

from 36

Post by Rui Collaco
to 11 per thousand in two years!!! Or are we to conclude that

Indian

Post by Rui Collaco
statistics are a free-for-all?
This is what I call misinformation, whether deliberate or by

negligence.

Post by Rui Collaco
One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5.

The

Post by Rui Collaco
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development Report-

2003.

Post by Rui Collaco
Rui Manuel Colla?o
Lisbon

[Rui Collaco]

Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.

Which carries more weight for you as a source of information: an article on
"Goa Today" or the Economic Survey attached to the Union Budget, which is an
official Government document? For me the choice is obvious, which means that
Goa's infant mortality rate in 2001 was 36 per thousand.

I am not jumping with joy, not for so little. I only mentioned Portugal's
figures as an example of how in 31 years that rate came down from 53 to 5
(less than one tenth), whereas in Goa, the rate was reduced, in 40 years,
from 57 to 36, not even half the rate of 1961. And you were boasting about
this. You could perhaps come up with some other indicators but this one
should not make you proud. Even the former Pol Pot regime could manage that
or better in 40 years! You and other people on Goanet seem to think that the
rest of the world stopped in its tracks while Goa "marched ahead" after
1961. The "all round improvement in social parameters" applies to the entire
world, it's not Goa's exclusive achievement.

I can sense your irritation whenever Portugal is mentioned on this net, but
I find it very useful, for the benefit of those who take interest in these
matters, to supply some statistical data, to counter inaccuracies which are
taken for facts, if left unchecked.

What I said about the neocolonialists from New Delhi was not a "wild
allegation". It was said in response to a reply by Teotonio de Souza to a
posting of mine, in which he considered that Portugal's granting of
citizenship to Goans was a compensation for its "use and abuse of colonial
territory and people for 450 years". I did not say that the neocolonialists
had ruined Goa since 1961. That's what you claim that I said, which makes me
think that you have a reading and comprehension problem, because you keep
distorting the contents of my postings. By the way, why do you keep writing
"neocolonists"? Is that Indian English or you coined a new word? I'll stick
to "neocolonialists". But I am no expert in English, it's an alien language
to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.

Rui Miranda Colla?o

Lisbon

From: "gilbert" <gilmen30 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 11:20:38 -0000
In spite of your sarcasm, and allusions to misinformation, I am not
in the business of manufacturing stats. They were taken from an
article by Dr. VA Pai Panandikar in Goa Today, Aug 2003. He was the
former President of the Centre of Policy Research, New Delhi. You
may like to read the article and get a little more educated about
Goa.
BTW, since you are jumping with joy that Portugal has now overtaken
the UK in reducing infant mortality by one less baby dead, why dont
you provide all the other HDR figures which place the UK way ahead of
Portugal in the same report.
The aim of the debate was not to compare countrys indicators, but to
rebut your wild and insubstantiated allegation that *neocolonists*
had ruined Goa since 1961. If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960
and again in 2000, and saw the all round improvement of all social
parameters, I can assure you that we would not be having this debate
in the first place.
regards, Gilbert--and thats my name.

Post by Rui Collaco
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on

Goanet. That's

Post by Rui Collaco
my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given by

"Gilbert" (why

Post by Rui Collaco
don't people identify themselves on Goanet?), seemed very good to

me, for a

Post by Rui Collaco
third world region. Some of them may even be true. However, if you

check the

Post by Rui Collaco
Union Budget 2003-2004, Economic Survey 2002-2003/Statistical

Table/Human

Post by Rui Collaco
Development Indicators/9.5 State-wise infant mortality rate
Infant mortality rate
1961 2001
India 115 71
Goa 57 36
This means that according to this most credible of Indian sources

of

Post by Rui Collaco
information, in 1961 the infant mortality rate in Goa was 57 (per

1000 live

Post by Rui Collaco
births), half the rate for India, and in 2001 (forty years later)

it was 36,

Post by Rui Collaco
still half the rate of India as a whole, but not even half the rate

of 40

Post by Rui Collaco
years before. What an achievement to boast about!
Gilbert was claiming that the rate for Goa was 70 in 1961, and is

now 11! He

Post by Rui Collaco
should check on his sources, unless he invented those rates. There

are no

Post by Rui Collaco
miracles these days, and I haven't heard about the Sultan of Brunei

buying

Post by Rui Collaco
up Goa, so there's no way the infant mortality rate could come down

from 36

Post by Rui Collaco
to 11 per thousand in two years!!! Or are we to conclude that

Indian

Post by Rui Collaco
statistics are a free-for-all?
This is what I call misinformation, whether deliberate or by

negligence.

Post by Rui Collaco
One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5.

The

Post by Rui Collaco
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development Report-

2003.

Post by Rui Collaco
Rui Manuel Colla?o
Lisbon

##########################################################################
# Send submissions for Goanet to goanet at goanet.org #
# PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts #
# More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ #
# Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others #
##########################################################################

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Messenger: converse com os seus amigos online.
http://messenger.msn.com.br

[Miguel]

I know that "Gilbert" on the net is Dr.Gilbert Lawrence. Is the "Rui
*Miranda* Collaco" on Goanet at goanet.org the same as the "Rui *Manuel*
Collaco" on Goanet2003 at yahoogroups.com who asks Gilbert, "why don't people
identify themselves on Goanet?"
The Portuguese tradition of giving the hapless infant a 'litany' instead of
a 'name' leaves customs officials in most countries breathless while
confirming the identity of the traveller[ I am one victim of this
tradition].Is Rui getting confused about the three names he chose to use--or
are there two of a kind from Lisbon on the net?

As for the statistics,I will only quote Benjamin Disraeli{then PM of UK}:
"There are three kinds of lies: lies,damned lies and statistics"
Nothing different in India or Portugal.Even in UK ,they recently 'sexed up'
data on Iraq!All is fair in love and war.So what if Dr.Kelly died
'mysteriously' for stating the truth?

We are better off in Goa now than in 1961.In Portugal people may be still
better off than us.Let them rejoice in their progress as we do in ours.
Goans do not preach to the Portuguese[white skinned or otherwise] how to
keep up with the Brits.We do not want to be preached at either.If they feel
we are not as well off as they are, let them send us Euros instead of futile
postings on goanet. Let the Portuguese conduct their debate on their own net
groups[start a new one if there isn't one to accommodate all the 'Goa
experts' in that country].Goanet is not for Portuguese hegemony. Those days
are long past, placed in the non-biodegradable garbage dump of history! Rui
will understand this;it is beyond the level of a bigot like Bernado.

VIVA GOA ! JAI HIND!!

Miguel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators

Post by Rui Collaco
Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.

But I am no expert in English, it's an alien language

Post by Rui Collaco
to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.
* Rui Miranda Colla?o*
Lisbon

If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960and again in 2000, and saw the all
round improvement of all socialparameters, I can assure you that we would
not be having this debatein the first place.
regards,
Gilbert--and thats my name.

Post by Rui Collaco

Post by Rui Collaco
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on

Goanet. That's my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given

by

Post by Rui Collaco

"Gilbert" (*why don't people identify themselves on Goanet?*), seemed

very good to

Post by Rui Collaco

me, for a third world region

Post by Rui Collaco
One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5.The
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development

Report-2003.

Post by Rui Collaco

* Rui Manuel Colla?o*

Post by Rui Collaco
Lisbon

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.514 / Virus Database: 312 - Release Date: 8/28/2003

[Miguel]

I know that "Gilbert" on the net is Dr.Gilbert Lawrence. Is the "Rui
*Miranda* Collaco" on Goanet at goanet.org the same as the "Rui *Manuel*
Collaco" on Goanet2003 at yahoogroups.com who asks Gilbert, "why don't people
identify themselves on Goanet?"
The Portuguese tradition of giving the hapless infant a 'litany' instead of
a 'name' leaves customs officials in most countries breathless while
confirming the identity of the traveller[ I am one victim of this
tradition].Is Rui getting confused about the three names he chose to use--or
are there two of a kind from Lisbon on the net?

As for the statistics,I will only quote Benjamin Disraeli{then PM of UK}:
"There are three kinds of lies: lies,damned lies and statistics"
Nothing different in India or Portugal.Even in UK ,they recently 'sexed up'
data on Iraq!All is fair in love and war.So what if Dr.Kelly died
'mysteriously' for stating the truth?

We are better off in Goa now than in 1961.In Portugal people may be still
better off than us.Let them rejoice in their progress as we do in ours.
Goans do not preach to the Portuguese[white skinned or otherwise] how to
keep up with the Brits.We do not want to be preached at either.If they feel
we are not as well off as they are, let them send us Euros instead of futile
postings on goanet. Let the Portuguese conduct their debate on their own net
groups[start a new one if there isn't one to accommodate all the 'Goa
experts' in that country].Goanet is not for Portuguese hegemony. Those days
are long past, placed in the non-biodegradable garbage dump of history! Rui
will understand this;it is beyond the level of a bigot like Bernado.

VIVA GOA ! JAI HIND!!

Miguel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators

Post by Rui Collaco
Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.

But I am no expert in English, it's an alien language

Post by Rui Collaco
to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.
* Rui Miranda Colla?o*
Lisbon

If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960and again in 2000, and saw the all
round improvement of all socialparameters, I can assure you that we would
not be having this debatein the first place.
regards,
Gilbert--and thats my name.

Post by Rui Collaco

Post by Rui Collaco
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on

Goanet. That's my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given

by

Post by Rui Collaco

"Gilbert" (*why don't people identify themselves on Goanet?*), seemed

very good to

Post by Rui Collaco

me, for a third world region

Post by Rui Collaco
One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5.The
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development

Report-2003.

Post by Rui Collaco

* Rui Manuel Colla?o*

Post by Rui Collaco
Lisbon

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.514 / Virus Database: 312 - Release Date: 8/28/2003

[Miguel]

I know that "Gilbert" on the net is Dr.Gilbert Lawrence. Is the "Rui
*Miranda* Collaco" on Goanet at goanet.org the same as the "Rui *Manuel*
Collaco" on Goanet2003 at yahoogroups.com who asks Gilbert, "why don't people
identify themselves on Goanet?"
The Portuguese tradition of giving the hapless infant a 'litany' instead of
a 'name' leaves customs officials in most countries breathless while
confirming the identity of the traveller[ I am one victim of this
tradition].Is Rui getting confused about the three names he chose to use--or
are there two of a kind from Lisbon on the net?

As for the statistics,I will only quote Benjamin Disraeli{then PM of UK}:
"There are three kinds of lies: lies,damned lies and statistics"
Nothing different in India or Portugal.Even in UK ,they recently 'sexed up'
data on Iraq!All is fair in love and war.So what if Dr.Kelly died
'mysteriously' for stating the truth?

We are better off in Goa now than in 1961.In Portugal people may be still
better off than us.Let them rejoice in their progress as we do in ours.
Goans do not preach to the Portuguese[white skinned or otherwise] how to
keep up with the Brits.We do not want to be preached at either.If they feel
we are not as well off as they are, let them send us Euros instead of futile
postings on goanet. Let the Portuguese conduct their debate on their own net
groups[start a new one if there isn't one to accommodate all the 'Goa
experts' in that country].Goanet is not for Portuguese hegemony. Those days
are long past, placed in the non-biodegradable garbage dump of history! Rui
will understand this;it is beyond the level of a bigot like Bernado.

VIVA GOA ! JAI HIND!!

Miguel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators

Post by Rui Collaco
Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.

But I am no expert in English, it's an alien language

Post by Rui Collaco
to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.
* Rui Miranda Colla?o*
Lisbon

If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960and again in 2000, and saw the all
round improvement of all socialparameters, I can assure you that we would
not be having this debatein the first place.
regards,
Gilbert--and thats my name.

Post by Rui Collaco

Post by Rui Collaco
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on

Goanet. That's my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given

by

Post by Rui Collaco

"Gilbert" (*why don't people identify themselves on Goanet?*), seemed

very good to

Post by Rui Collaco

me, for a third world region

Post by Rui Collaco
One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5.The
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development

Report-2003.

Post by Rui Collaco

* Rui Manuel Colla?o*

Post by Rui Collaco
Lisbon

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.514 / Virus Database: 312 - Release Date: 8/28/2003

[Miguel]

I know that "Gilbert" on the net is Dr.Gilbert Lawrence. Is the "Rui
*Miranda* Collaco" on Goanet at goanet.org the same as the "Rui *Manuel*
Collaco" on Goanet2003 at yahoogroups.com who asks Gilbert, "why don't people
identify themselves on Goanet?"
The Portuguese tradition of giving the hapless infant a 'litany' instead of
a 'name' leaves customs officials in most countries breathless while
confirming the identity of the traveller[ I am one victim of this
tradition].Is Rui getting confused about the three names he chose to use--or
are there two of a kind from Lisbon on the net?

As for the statistics,I will only quote Benjamin Disraeli{then PM of UK}:
"There are three kinds of lies: lies,damned lies and statistics"
Nothing different in India or Portugal.Even in UK ,they recently 'sexed up'
data on Iraq!All is fair in love and war.So what if Dr.Kelly died
'mysteriously' for stating the truth?

We are better off in Goa now than in 1961.In Portugal people may be still
better off than us.Let them rejoice in their progress as we do in ours.
Goans do not preach to the Portuguese[white skinned or otherwise] how to
keep up with the Brits.We do not want to be preached at either.If they feel
we are not as well off as they are, let them send us Euros instead of futile
postings on goanet. Let the Portuguese conduct their debate on their own net
groups[start a new one if there isn't one to accommodate all the 'Goa
experts' in that country].Goanet is not for Portuguese hegemony. Those days
are long past, placed in the non-biodegradable garbage dump of history! Rui
will understand this;it is beyond the level of a bigot like Bernado.

VIVA GOA ! JAI HIND!!

Miguel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators

Post by Rui Collaco
Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.

But I am no expert in English, it's an alien language

Post by Rui Collaco
to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.
* Rui Miranda Colla?o*
Lisbon

If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960and again in 2000, and saw the all
round improvement of all socialparameters, I can assure you that we would
not be having this debatein the first place.
regards,
Gilbert--and thats my name.

Post by Rui Collaco

Post by Rui Collaco
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on

Goanet. That's my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given

by

Post by Rui Collaco

"Gilbert" (*why don't people identify themselves on Goanet?*), seemed

very good to

Post by Rui Collaco

me, for a third world region

Post by Rui Collaco
One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5.The
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development

Report-2003.

Post by Rui Collaco

* Rui Manuel Colla?o*

Post by Rui Collaco
Lisbon

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.514 / Virus Database: 312 - Release Date: 8/28/2003

[Santosh Helekar]

In a message dated 9/2/03 12:23:29 AM Central Daylight Time,

Post by Rui Collaco
Which carries more weight for you as a source of information: an
article on "Goa Today" or the Economic Survey attached to the Union
Budget, which is an official Government document? For me the choice
is obvious, which means that Goa's infant mortality rate in 2001 was
36 per thousand.

As I had written in a post that did not appear on Goanet for some
reason, there is a problem with the above figure. The official figure
for the infant mortality rate has fluctuated from 4 per 1000 to 27
per 1000 over the past decade or so. The Registrar General in charge
of the Sample Registration System (SRS) of the Census of India
publishes a bulletin each year. According to this SRS bulletin the
rate was 4 per 1000 live births in 1994. It was 23 per 1000 in 2002.
In 1999-2000, it was 13.12, according to Dr. Jose de Sa of the Goa
State Family Welfare Bureau. In other years, these rates have varied
around 17 per 1000. It may well be 11 per 1000 in 2003.

Cheers,

Santosh

[gilbert]

Post by Rui Collaco
Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.

By the way, why do you keep writing

Post by Rui Collaco
"neocolonists"? Is that Indian English or you coined a new word?

I'll stick

Post by Rui Collaco
to "neocolonialists". But I am no expert in English, it's an alien

language

Post by Rui Collaco
to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.
Rui Miranda Colla?o
Lisbon

-------------------------------
The word intended was *neocolonialist* Thanks for the correction, but
do I trace a faint hint of sarcasm in your comment?!!
regards, Gilbert.

[Colaco-Dias, Paulo]

Gosh,

I have never ever encountered so much redundancy in a single post.

The net value of your post was nil! But then that is what happens when
one runs out of valid arguments. The only way out is to attack and
resource to remarks with no possible factual validation. For example,
your statement that I am a friend of Bernado. How did you conclude that?
The first time I established direct contact with Bernado was yesterday
when I asked him from where he was. Before that, I only heard from his
posts that are daring but, nonetheless, present valid arguments many
times.

How did you conclude that I live in Portugal? Most people on Goanet know
that I live in London and have lived in London since 1995. But you not
only took it for granted but also issued a statement that I live in
Portugal.

The problem with you is that you issue false statements in your posts
without checking the validity. Most contributors start by saying "I
believe", or "In my opinion", "According to the data published...", etc.
But you actually issue statements as though they are valid just because
you said them and you even go to the point to justify that you have read
that in "many newspapers" or in the media in Goa! I honestly think you
should revise what you want to say and look for the validity of those
statements before posting them.

Despite what you might think, your name Miguel is not rare. There are
hundreds (if not thousands) of Migueis in Goa. Hence my humble request
to know your surname. I think it is not too much to ask, is it?

I also believe you have been in this forum for the past year or so,
hence I had never heard of you. For your information, I have been an
on-and-off member of GoaNet since 1994. Even though everybody knows me
very well, I have always identified myself to the full. If I have signed
as Paulo only, my e-mail id contains Paulo Colaco-Dias while yours
contains only Miguel or Miguel12 - not very revealing, is it?

Also, I can't see how by getting my DNA testing is going to reveal if I
am an Indian or anything else. Did you find that in your hard(ly)
factual-based research that Indians have different genes that can help
to distinguish themselves from the other human beings?

Where did I mention in my post "Portuguese descent"??? I do not have any
claims of that sort. You are again speculating and again issuing false
statements. Your posts are just as bad as they can get in terms of false
statements. Are you one of those who discriminate against "mesticos",
"descendentes" or "mulatos"??? Even though I am not one of them, I find
that most unfortunate in many of us Goans.

My request to you: "Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for
yourself", was in response to your statement that "we Goans do not need
Rui's advice".
Firstly, Rui was not giving any advices. He was merely responding to
other contributor's opinions/discussions.
I know Rui extremely well and that gives me the right to defend and
support him and his views which I second 100%. You would do the same for
your best mate. But you do not know me and I would never allow you to
include myself in your definition of "we". Is that crystal clear now or
shall I draw it for you so that you can understand?

The last part of your post is so rude that I am not even going to bother
replying. It speaks a lot for the person you are. Could not find any
indications of "Arcanjo". But, thanks for letting me know. I will keep
that in mind just before pressing the delete button next time.

Paulo Colaco Dias.



-----Original Message-----
From: Miguel [mailto:miguel12 at sancharnet.in]
Sent: 03 September 2003 04:44
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators

Dear Paulo Colaco-Dias,
There is just one Miguel posting on Goanet,so I do not see the need to
write
my surname every time. I am definitely not ashamed of my name.I am proud
to
be a Braganca[I write it as Braganza,for I hate to be called Braganka
for
want of a proper type face or key]Both my parents are Braganca. I am
Miguel
Arcanjo Braganca,joneiro/gaunkar of Communidade Agricole de Mapusa and a
parishioner of St.Jerome's Church famous for its Milagres feast(Festa da
Nossa Senhora das Milagres).My residential address and phone number can
be
given to you on request. Your friend Bernado Colaco does not have the
courage to do likewise.
Aquino Braganca is not my first cousin:he is one generation older to me.
I
only stated that he was born in Goa to differentiate from Rui Colaco,who
was
born in Mocambique.He and my uncle Luis were in Mocambique.They made
different choices and both were different from the one that Rui
made.That
was the purpose of the statement. Nothing else. We have lots of
achievers in
my family.I was not boasting about Aquino and Luis;just stating an
example.
I think you can understand that. If you cannot,I am wasting my time.

Granted that most our parents[and many of us on the goanet who were born
upto 18 December,1961] were Portuguese nationals by virtue of being born
in
the Estado da India.Unless you have European blood in you,I do not see
the
Portuguese descent. I am 100% Goan[not mulatto,descendent or mestizo or
,for
that matter ,siddhi/abyssinian]and that makes me an Indian. You may be
confused about that.I am not. Get your DNA tested.

Pakistani,Nepali and Bangladeshi peoples belong to the Indian
sub-continent.They just have different nationalities. The Bangladeshi
people
are Bengali.Till December,1971,they were called East Pakistani and
before
1947 they were Indians.One does not change one's genes with one's
nationality,citizenship or passport. Those who think they do,delude
themselves.

I have accepted the differentiation that Rui made between 'running a
casino'
and living off its profits. Since you are harping on it,I would like to
add
that a pimp who lives on the earnings of a prostitute does not become
more
respectable than the prostitute.At least the prostitute works for her
living---even though it is mostly on her back. Does that clear your
doubt.
After 1999,one prostitute's earnings were no longer available to those
who
would like to venerate the veneral.Viva Macau!

To me Rui is an intelligent,balanced person.You do him dis-service by
picking up his cause. He is capable of handling it in a more gentlemanly
manner."Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself" . I do not
recall Rui authorizing you to post on his behalf. Practice what you
preach.

I speak and write for myself. If you want to advise Goans in Goa[I am
one of
them],come down here,surrender your passport ,nationality and
citizenship of
Portugal and talk.If you do not have that courage,hold your peace.
Sitting
in Portugal you can talk of corruption in India.You will sing a
different
tune if you are sentenced to a jail term for libel/defamation in India.
Have
courage to face the consequences,or continue as differently coloured
citizen
of an adopted land.

If you have a problem with other national of your adopted country,that
is
your problem.Solve it in Portugal,in Portuguese or any other language of
your choice. Why are you wasting time and space on Goanet?

If you lack cheer in Portugal,drink Porto,Tinto or Azeite de Antonio*
Oliviera* Salazar!

Or join Mocidade Portuguesa.

Cheers! Viva Goa!!

Miguel Arcanjo de Braganca

[Miguel Braganza]

Shri Paulo Colaco-Dias,
Validation is needed when in doubt.Expatriates need to validate their Goan
experience when they lose touch with the realities in Goa. Fortunately,quite
a few expats on the Goanet have not lost their 'reality checks'.I will not
say IMHO because that is the truth. I will also not say * a majority*
because I have not conducted a net poll. Other comments are interspersed. I
will take your name out from the common cause with Xac. Who is he, by the
way, and where does he reside? You are one of the few[perhaps the only
one]that has established direct contact with him. He normally only rubs
people,albeit on the wrong side.Contacting him has been more difficult than
going to Mars.

Regards,
Miguel de Braganca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Colaco-Dias, Paulo" <Paulo.Dias at ca.com>

Gosh,I have never ever encountered so much redundancy in a single post.
Comment:There is always a'first time'!

The net value of your post was nil!
Comment: Hardly the case. It has produced a lengthy rejoinder from
you[unless what you post is worthless in your own opinion!]


*Most* people on Goanet know that I live in London and have lived in London
since 1995.
Comment: Did you conduct a poll on Goanet recently to conclude that? How do
YOU validate that sweeping statement?

I honestly think you should revise what you want to say and look for the
validity of those
statements before posting them.
Comment: Et Tu,Brute?

Despite what you might think, your name Miguel is not rare. There are
hundreds (if not thousands) of Migueis in Goa. Hence my humble request
to know your surname. I think it is not too much to ask, is it?
Comment: As far as I know,I am the only Miguel that is posting on
Goanet.Admitted,it is a common name in Goa[though rarely with that
spelling,'Minguel'is more common.],not on Goanet.

I also believe you have been in this forum for the past year or so,
hence I had never heard of you. For your information, I have been an
*on-and-off* member of GoaNet since 1994. Even though *everybody knows me*
very well, I have always identified myself to the full.
Where did I mention in my post "Portuguese descent"??? I do not have any
claims of that sort. You are again speculating and again issuing false
statements. Your posts are just as bad as they can get in terms of false
statements. Are you one of those who discriminate against "mesticos",
"descendentes" or "mulatos"??? Even though I am not one of them, I find
that most unfortunate in many of us Goans.

Comment: A name is just a part of one's identity.*Everybody* obviously does
not include me.I do not know your
parentage,nationality,citizenship,domicile,marital status,etc as you have so
considerately pointed out. I do not know how many Goanetters know you*very
well*.

Also, I can't see how by getting my DNA testing is going to reveal if I
am an Indian or anything else. Did you find that in your hard(ly)
factual-based research that Indians have different genes that can help
to distinguish themselves from the other human beings?
Comment: Please read up.The horizons of knowledge have grown .


My request to you: "Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for
yourself", was in response to your statement that "we Goans do not need
Rui's advice".Firstly, Rui was not giving any advices. He was merely
responding to
other contributor's opinions/discussions.
I know Rui extremely well and that gives me the right to defend and
support him and his views which I second 100%. You would do the same for
your best mate.
Comment:Knowing Rui gives you the right.Knowing Goans and being one of them
and living with them and feeling with them,denies me the same right. I am
not talking of ex-patriate Goans[nothing against them as long as they don't
preach];I am talking about Goans [of whatever parentage]in Goa.

Could not find any indications of "Arcanjo". But, thanks for letting me
know. I will keep
that in mind just before pressing the delete button next time.
Paulo Colaco Dias.
Comment:That won't help you one bit.My middle name is not part of my email
ID.If you speak Portuguese ,it will not even add to your vocabulary!

Cheers!! ;))

VIVA GOA . JAI HIND

Miguel de Braganca




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[Miguel Braganza]

Shri Paulo Colaco-Dias,
Validation is needed when in doubt.Expatriates need to validate their Goan
experience when they lose touch with the realities in Goa. Fortunately,quite
a few expats on the Goanet have not lost their 'reality checks'.I will not
say IMHO because that is the truth. I will also not say * a majority*
because I have not conducted a net poll. Other comments are interspersed. I
will take your name out from the common cause with Xac. Who is he, by the
way, and where does he reside? You are one of the few[perhaps the only
one]that has established direct contact with him. He normally only rubs
people,albeit on the wrong side.Contacting him has been more difficult than
going to Mars.

Regards,
Miguel de Braganca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Colaco-Dias, Paulo" <Paulo.Dias at ca.com>

Gosh,I have never ever encountered so much redundancy in a single post.
Comment:There is always a'first time'!

The net value of your post was nil!
Comment: Hardly the case. It has produced a lengthy rejoinder from
you[unless what you post is worthless in your own opinion!]


*Most* people on Goanet know that I live in London and have lived in London
since 1995.
Comment: Did you conduct a poll on Goanet recently to conclude that? How do
YOU validate that sweeping statement?

I honestly think you should revise what you want to say and look for the
validity of those
statements before posting them.
Comment: Et Tu,Brute?

Despite what you might think, your name Miguel is not rare. There are
hundreds (if not thousands) of Migueis in Goa. Hence my humble request
to know your surname. I think it is not too much to ask, is it?
Comment: As far as I know,I am the only Miguel that is posting on
Goanet.Admitted,it is a common name in Goa[though rarely with that
spelling,'Minguel'is more common.],not on Goanet.

I also believe you have been in this forum for the past year or so,
hence I had never heard of you. For your information, I have been an
*on-and-off* member of GoaNet since 1994. Even though *everybody knows me*
very well, I have always identified myself to the full.
Where did I mention in my post "Portuguese descent"??? I do not have any
claims of that sort. You are again speculating and again issuing false
statements. Your posts are just as bad as they can get in terms of false
statements. Are you one of those who discriminate against "mesticos",
"descendentes" or "mulatos"??? Even though I am not one of them, I find
that most unfortunate in many of us Goans.

Comment: A name is just a part of one's identity.*Everybody* obviously does
not include me.I do not know your
parentage,nationality,citizenship,domicile,marital status,etc as you have so
considerately pointed out. I do not know how many Goanetters know you*very
well*.

Also, I can't see how by getting my DNA testing is going to reveal if I
am an Indian or anything else. Did you find that in your hard(ly)
factual-based research that Indians have different genes that can help
to distinguish themselves from the other human beings?
Comment: Please read up.The horizons of knowledge have grown .


My request to you: "Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for
yourself", was in response to your statement that "we Goans do not need
Rui's advice".Firstly, Rui was not giving any advices. He was merely
responding to
other contributor's opinions/discussions.
I know Rui extremely well and that gives me the right to defend and
support him and his views which I second 100%. You would do the same for
your best mate.
Comment:Knowing Rui gives you the right.Knowing Goans and being one of them
and living with them and feeling with them,denies me the same right. I am
not talking of ex-patriate Goans[nothing against them as long as they don't
preach];I am talking about Goans [of whatever parentage]in Goa.

Could not find any indications of "Arcanjo". But, thanks for letting me
know. I will keep
that in mind just before pressing the delete button next time.
Paulo Colaco Dias.
Comment:That won't help you one bit.My middle name is not part of my email
ID.If you speak Portuguese ,it will not even add to your vocabulary!

Cheers!! ;))

VIVA GOA . JAI HIND

Miguel de Braganca




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[Miguel Braganza]

Shri Paulo Colaco-Dias,
Validation is needed when in doubt.Expatriates need to validate their Goan
experience when they lose touch with the realities in Goa. Fortunately,quite
a few expats on the Goanet have not lost their 'reality checks'.I will not
say IMHO because that is the truth. I will also not say * a majority*
because I have not conducted a net poll. Other comments are interspersed. I
will take your name out from the common cause with Xac. Who is he, by the
way, and where does he reside? You are one of the few[perhaps the only
one]that has established direct contact with him. He normally only rubs
people,albeit on the wrong side.Contacting him has been more difficult than
going to Mars.

Regards,
Miguel de Braganca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Colaco-Dias, Paulo" <Paulo.Dias at ca.com>

Gosh,I have never ever encountered so much redundancy in a single post.
Comment:There is always a'first time'!

The net value of your post was nil!
Comment: Hardly the case. It has produced a lengthy rejoinder from
you[unless what you post is worthless in your own opinion!]


*Most* people on Goanet know that I live in London and have lived in London
since 1995.
Comment: Did you conduct a poll on Goanet recently to conclude that? How do
YOU validate that sweeping statement?

I honestly think you should revise what you want to say and look for the
validity of those
statements before posting them.
Comment: Et Tu,Brute?

Despite what you might think, your name Miguel is not rare. There are
hundreds (if not thousands) of Migueis in Goa. Hence my humble request
to know your surname. I think it is not too much to ask, is it?
Comment: As far as I know,I am the only Miguel that is posting on
Goanet.Admitted,it is a common name in Goa[though rarely with that
spelling,'Minguel'is more common.],not on Goanet.

I also believe you have been in this forum for the past year or so,
hence I had never heard of you. For your information, I have been an
*on-and-off* member of GoaNet since 1994. Even though *everybody knows me*
very well, I have always identified myself to the full.
Where did I mention in my post "Portuguese descent"??? I do not have any
claims of that sort. You are again speculating and again issuing false
statements. Your posts are just as bad as they can get in terms of false
statements. Are you one of those who discriminate against "mesticos",
"descendentes" or "mulatos"??? Even though I am not one of them, I find
that most unfortunate in many of us Goans.

Comment: A name is just a part of one's identity.*Everybody* obviously does
not include me.I do not know your
parentage,nationality,citizenship,domicile,marital status,etc as you have so
considerately pointed out. I do not know how many Goanetters know you*very
well*.

Also, I can't see how by getting my DNA testing is going to reveal if I
am an Indian or anything else. Did you find that in your hard(ly)
factual-based research that Indians have different genes that can help
to distinguish themselves from the other human beings?
Comment: Please read up.The horizons of knowledge have grown .


My request to you: "Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for
yourself", was in response to your statement that "we Goans do not need
Rui's advice".Firstly, Rui was not giving any advices. He was merely
responding to
other contributor's opinions/discussions.
I know Rui extremely well and that gives me the right to defend and
support him and his views which I second 100%. You would do the same for
your best mate.
Comment:Knowing Rui gives you the right.Knowing Goans and being one of them
and living with them and feeling with them,denies me the same right. I am
not talking of ex-patriate Goans[nothing against them as long as they don't
preach];I am talking about Goans [of whatever parentage]in Goa.

Could not find any indications of "Arcanjo". But, thanks for letting me
know. I will keep
that in mind just before pressing the delete button next time.
Paulo Colaco Dias.
Comment:That won't help you one bit.My middle name is not part of my email
ID.If you speak Portuguese ,it will not even add to your vocabulary!

Cheers!! ;))

VIVA GOA . JAI HIND

Miguel de Braganca




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[Bernado Colaco]

Hi Miguel,

Some more info on Portugal's social indicators: The
latest figures on life expectancy has now gone up to
79,5%. The death rate at child birth and upto 5 years
has been reduced by 22,6% since 1961.

Kind regards

Bernado Cola?o

________________________________________________________________________
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[Tim de Mello]

From: Miguel <miguel12 at sancharnet.in>
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:19:12 +0530
We are better off in Goa now than in 1961.In Portugal people may be still
better off than us.Let them rejoice in their progress as we do in ours.
Goans do not preach to the Portuguese[white skinned or otherwise] how to
keep up with the Brits.We do not want to be preached at either.If they feel
we are not as well off as they are, let them send us Euros instead of
futile
postings on goanet. Let the Portuguese conduct their debate on their own
net
groups[start a new one if there isn't one to accommodate all the 'Goa
experts' in that country].Goanet is not for Portuguese hegemony. Those days
are long past, placed in the non-biodegradable garbage dump of history!
Rui
will understand this;it is beyond the level of a bigot like Bernado.
VIVA GOA ! JAI HIND!!
Miguel

--------------

Miguel:

Just so you know - I fully support what you say. Just because we, "the
silent majority" do not actively contribute to this debate, does not mean we
do not have a point of view.

We just do not have the same stamina as the Xacs and Ruis of this world.

I just wish they could do something more productive with all that energy!


Tim de Mello
CANADA

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

[Rui Collaco]

You are an expert at inventing futile issues, but this time I shall clarify
your ackward perplexity. My name is Rui Manuel Miranda Colla?o, and
obviously you were in no doubt about it. I enjoy confusing some susceptible
minds.

Long names are not a Portuguese tradition, they are a Goan one. Most
Portuguese people I know have short names. Of course some surnames can be
long, but you can't change them. Please find better issues for your daily
Portugal-bashing feature.

It is funny to quote Disraeli when statistics are of no use to you! Of
course you can't question them in a serious way. When I read your postings,
I think that some of your ideas belong to the time B. Disraeli lived. For
instance, I can see, reading the post below, that you have a serious problem
with the colour of your skin. I presume you are very brown and you don't
like it, and you have an inferiority complex. Above all, you can't figure
out how people of your colour can live in countries like Portugal, where the
majority is white. But I cannot explain properly to you how easy it is to
live in this country as a brown or even a black. For me it's a non-issue,
and also for the majority of my countryman. Only if you come here and see
for yourself you may rid your mind of the cobwebs that fill it. Meanwhile
you may continue with your sarcasms about skin colour - you only cover
yourself with ridicule.

I know you are very upset at having some people standing up at some
utterances on Goanet, and actually setting the record straight. I believe
it's a free forum, that's the marvel of internet. Why can't you
democratically accept other people?s views? It would appear that you
inherited Salazar's traits. You want to shut me out of Goanet, but I have no
intention of following your suggestion. I shall send postings to Goanet
whenever I feel like, or better still, whenever people like you give me a
good reason to. as for the euros, bad luck, no euros left for you. Your
elected Government makes sure no Portuguese euros reach Goa. They are going
to East Timor instead, lots of them. The East Timorese welcome them, and do
their thanking in Portuguese.

Rui Colla?o

Lisbon

From: Miguel <miguel12 at sancharnet.in>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:19:12 +0530
I know that "Gilbert" on the net is Dr.Gilbert Lawrence. Is the "Rui
*Miranda* Collaco" on Goanet at goanet.org the same as the "Rui *Manuel*
Collaco" on Goanet2003 at yahoogroups.com who asks Gilbert, "why don't people
identify themselves on Goanet?"
The Portuguese tradition of giving the hapless infant a 'litany' instead of
a 'name' leaves customs officials in most countries breathless while
confirming the identity of the traveller[ I am one victim of this
tradition].Is Rui getting confused about the three names he chose to
use--or
are there two of a kind from Lisbon on the net?
"There are three kinds of lies: lies,damned lies and statistics"
Nothing different in India or Portugal.Even in UK ,they recently 'sexed up'
data on Iraq!All is fair in love and war.So what if Dr.Kelly died
'mysteriously' for stating the truth?
We are better off in Goa now than in 1961.In Portugal people may be still
better off than us.Let them rejoice in their progress as we do in ours.
Goans do not preach to the Portuguese[white skinned or otherwise] how to
keep up with the Brits.We do not want to be preached at either.If they feel
we are not as well off as they are, let them send us Euros instead of
futile
postings on goanet. Let the Portuguese conduct their debate on their own
net
groups[start a new one if there isn't one to accommodate all the 'Goa
experts' in that country].Goanet is not for Portuguese hegemony. Those days
are long past, placed in the non-biodegradable garbage dump of history!
Rui
will understand this;it is beyond the level of a bigot like Bernado.
VIVA GOA ! JAI HIND!!
Miguel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators

Post by Rui Collaco
Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.

But I am no expert in English, it's an alien language

Post by Rui Collaco
to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.
* Rui Miranda Colla?o*
Lisbon

If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960and again in 2000, and saw the all
round improvement of all socialparameters, I can assure you that we would
not be having this debatein the first place.
regards,
Gilbert--and thats my name.

Post by Rui Collaco

Post by Rui Collaco
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on

Goanet. That's my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators

given
by

Post by Rui Collaco

"Gilbert" (*why don't people identify themselves on Goanet?*), seemed

very good to

Post by Rui Collaco

me, for a third world region

Post by Rui Collaco
One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now

5.The

Post by Rui Collaco

Post by Rui Collaco
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development

Report-2003.

Post by Rui Collaco

* Rui Manuel Colla?o*

Post by Rui Collaco
Lisbon

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[Miguel Braganza]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators


I shall clarify

your *ackward perplexity*. My name is Rui Manuel Miranda Colla?o, and
obviously you were in no doubt about it. I enjoy confusing some susceptible
minds.
Comment:Not so glad to know you.Thank you for admitting your passion for

confusion

Long names are not a Portuguese tradition, they are a Goan one. Most
Portuguese people I know have short names. Of course some surnames can be
long, but you can't change them. Please find better issues for your daily
Portugal-bashing feature.

Comment: Looks like you know the abbreviated names only.What a pity.Ask the
Portuguese people you know their full names as per baptisimal certificates!

For instance, I can see, reading the post below, that you have a serious
problem

with the colour of your skin. I presume you are very brown and you don't
like it, and you have an inferiority complex. Above all, you can't figure
out how people of your colour can live in countries like Portugal, where the
majority is white.

Comment: I am rather fair for this tropical climate. As a child,my
classmates often called me 'paklo'. You presume wrong--and without the
validation you seek in others.

But I cannot explain properly to you how easy it is to

live in this country as a brown or even a black. For me it's a non-issue,
and also for the+ majority+ of *my countryman.* Only if you come here and

see

for yourself you may rid your mind of the cobwebs that fill it. Meanwhile
you may continue with your sarcasms about skin colour - you only cover
yourself with ridicule.

Comment:A gallup poll to validate the majority opinion in a jiffy? Who are
your *countrymen* Rui ? Firingi,pakle or who?

I know you are very upset at having some people standing up at some
utterances on Goanet, and actually setting the record straight. I believe
it's a free forum, that's the marvel of internet.

Comment: If you are talking about the likes of Xac,they don't upset me.I
feel nothing for cowards who cannot even identify themselves,let alone stand
up to me. The marvel of the internet is that permits abuse without
retribution.The salazarist postings waste as much of our net time as those
pesky viruses! Hence my request to netters to ignore them. Your are free to
post something that is more constructive.

Why can't you democratically accept other people?s views? It would appear
that you

inherited Salazar's traits. You want to shut me out of Goanet, but I have no
intention of following your suggestion. I shall send postings to Goanet
whenever I feel like, or better still, whenever people like you give me a
good reason to. Rui Colla?o, Lisbon

Comment: As above.Far be it that a salazarist should compare me to his
'guru'.


Is the "Rui

Post by Miguel
*Miranda* Collaco" on Goanet at goanet.org the same as the "Rui *Manuel*
Collaco" on Goanet2003 at yahoogroups.com who asks Gilbert, "why don't people
identify themselves on Goanet?"
The Portuguese tradition of giving the hapless infant a 'litany' instead of
a 'name' leaves customs officials in most countries breathless while
confirming the identity of the traveller[ I am one victim of this
tradition].Is Rui getting confused about the three names he chose to
use--orare there two of a kind from Lisbon on the net?

Let the Portuguese conduct their debate on their own

Post by Miguel
net>groups[start a new one if there isn't one to accommodate all the 'Goa
experts' in that country].Goanet is not for Portuguese hegemony. Those days
are long past, placed in the non-biodegradable garbage dump of history!
Rui>will understand this;it is beyond the level of a bigot like Bernado.
VIVA GOA ! JAI HIND!!
Miguel

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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Miguel Braganza]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators


I shall clarify

your *ackward perplexity*. My name is Rui Manuel Miranda Colla?o, and
obviously you were in no doubt about it. I enjoy confusing some susceptible
minds.
Comment:Not so glad to know you.Thank you for admitting your passion for

confusion

Long names are not a Portuguese tradition, they are a Goan one. Most
Portuguese people I know have short names. Of course some surnames can be
long, but you can't change them. Please find better issues for your daily
Portugal-bashing feature.

Comment: Looks like you know the abbreviated names only.What a pity.Ask the
Portuguese people you know their full names as per baptisimal certificates!

For instance, I can see, reading the post below, that you have a serious
problem

with the colour of your skin. I presume you are very brown and you don't
like it, and you have an inferiority complex. Above all, you can't figure
out how people of your colour can live in countries like Portugal, where the
majority is white.

Comment: I am rather fair for this tropical climate. As a child,my
classmates often called me 'paklo'. You presume wrong--and without the
validation you seek in others.

But I cannot explain properly to you how easy it is to

live in this country as a brown or even a black. For me it's a non-issue,
and also for the+ majority+ of *my countryman.* Only if you come here and

see

for yourself you may rid your mind of the cobwebs that fill it. Meanwhile
you may continue with your sarcasms about skin colour - you only cover
yourself with ridicule.

Comment:A gallup poll to validate the majority opinion in a jiffy? Who are
your *countrymen* Rui ? Firingi,pakle or who?

I know you are very upset at having some people standing up at some
utterances on Goanet, and actually setting the record straight. I believe
it's a free forum, that's the marvel of internet.

Comment: If you are talking about the likes of Xac,they don't upset me.I
feel nothing for cowards who cannot even identify themselves,let alone stand
up to me. The marvel of the internet is that permits abuse without
retribution.The salazarist postings waste as much of our net time as those
pesky viruses! Hence my request to netters to ignore them. Your are free to
post something that is more constructive.

Why can't you democratically accept other people?s views? It would appear
that you

inherited Salazar's traits. You want to shut me out of Goanet, but I have no
intention of following your suggestion. I shall send postings to Goanet
whenever I feel like, or better still, whenever people like you give me a
good reason to. Rui Colla?o, Lisbon

Comment: As above.Far be it that a salazarist should compare me to his
'guru'.


Is the "Rui

Post by Miguel
*Miranda* Collaco" on Goanet at goanet.org the same as the "Rui *Manuel*
Collaco" on Goanet2003 at yahoogroups.com who asks Gilbert, "why don't people
identify themselves on Goanet?"
The Portuguese tradition of giving the hapless infant a 'litany' instead of
a 'name' leaves customs officials in most countries breathless while
confirming the identity of the traveller[ I am one victim of this
tradition].Is Rui getting confused about the three names he chose to
use--orare there two of a kind from Lisbon on the net?

Let the Portuguese conduct their debate on their own

Post by Miguel
net>groups[start a new one if there isn't one to accommodate all the 'Goa
experts' in that country].Goanet is not for Portuguese hegemony. Those days
are long past, placed in the non-biodegradable garbage dump of history!
Rui>will understand this;it is beyond the level of a bigot like Bernado.
VIVA GOA ! JAI HIND!!
Miguel

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.514 / Virus Database: 312 - Release Date: 8/29/2003

[Miguel Braganza]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators


I shall clarify

your *ackward perplexity*. My name is Rui Manuel Miranda Colla?o, and
obviously you were in no doubt about it. I enjoy confusing some susceptible
minds.
Comment:Not so glad to know you.Thank you for admitting your passion for

confusion

Long names are not a Portuguese tradition, they are a Goan one. Most
Portuguese people I know have short names. Of course some surnames can be
long, but you can't change them. Please find better issues for your daily
Portugal-bashing feature.

Comment: Looks like you know the abbreviated names only.What a pity.Ask the
Portuguese people you know their full names as per baptisimal certificates!

For instance, I can see, reading the post below, that you have a serious
problem

with the colour of your skin. I presume you are very brown and you don't
like it, and you have an inferiority complex. Above all, you can't figure
out how people of your colour can live in countries like Portugal, where the
majority is white.

Comment: I am rather fair for this tropical climate. As a child,my
classmates often called me 'paklo'. You presume wrong--and without the
validation you seek in others.

But I cannot explain properly to you how easy it is to

live in this country as a brown or even a black. For me it's a non-issue,
and also for the+ majority+ of *my countryman.* Only if you come here and

see

for yourself you may rid your mind of the cobwebs that fill it. Meanwhile
you may continue with your sarcasms about skin colour - you only cover
yourself with ridicule.

Comment:A gallup poll to validate the majority opinion in a jiffy? Who are
your *countrymen* Rui ? Firingi,pakle or who?

I know you are very upset at having some people standing up at some
utterances on Goanet, and actually setting the record straight. I believe
it's a free forum, that's the marvel of internet.

Comment: If you are talking about the likes of Xac,they don't upset me.I
feel nothing for cowards who cannot even identify themselves,let alone stand
up to me. The marvel of the internet is that permits abuse without
retribution.The salazarist postings waste as much of our net time as those
pesky viruses! Hence my request to netters to ignore them. Your are free to
post something that is more constructive.

Why can't you democratically accept other people?s views? It would appear
that you

inherited Salazar's traits. You want to shut me out of Goanet, but I have no
intention of following your suggestion. I shall send postings to Goanet
whenever I feel like, or better still, whenever people like you give me a
good reason to. Rui Colla?o, Lisbon

Comment: As above.Far be it that a salazarist should compare me to his
'guru'.


Is the "Rui

Post by Miguel
*Miranda* Collaco" on Goanet at goanet.org the same as the "Rui *Manuel*
Collaco" on Goanet2003 at yahoogroups.com who asks Gilbert, "why don't people
identify themselves on Goanet?"
The Portuguese tradition of giving the hapless infant a 'litany' instead of
a 'name' leaves customs officials in most countries breathless while
confirming the identity of the traveller[ I am one victim of this
tradition].Is Rui getting confused about the three names he chose to
use--orare there two of a kind from Lisbon on the net?

Let the Portuguese conduct their debate on their own

Post by Miguel
net>groups[start a new one if there isn't one to accommodate all the 'Goa
experts' in that country].Goanet is not for Portuguese hegemony. Those days
are long past, placed in the non-biodegradable garbage dump of history!
Rui>will understand this;it is beyond the level of a bigot like Bernado.
VIVA GOA ! JAI HIND!!
Miguel

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.514 / Virus Database: 312 - Release Date: 8/29/2003

[Colaco-Dias, Paulo]

Post by Colaco-Dias, Paulo
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim de Mello [mailto:timdemello2 at hotmail.com]
Sent: quarta-feira, 3 de Setembro de 2003 21:12
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Just so you know - I fully support what you say. Just because we, "the
silent majority" do not actively contribute to this debate, does not

mean >we

Post by Colaco-Dias, Paulo
do not have a point of view.
We just do not have the same stamina as the Xacs and Ruis of this

world.

Post by Colaco-Dias, Paulo
I just wish they could do something more productive with all that

energy!

Post by Colaco-Dias, Paulo
Tim de Mello
CANADA

Tim, I am afraid keeping silent and agreeing with Miguel is not enough.
According to Miguel's last post, he wants you and everybody else to go
back to Goa, surrender your foreign passports and fight for the future
of Goa like a true Goan. So I guess you must still be in agreement and I
guess you will be soon leaving Toronto to join Miguel in the Goa's
downgrading process of true JAI HIND!

[EdgarStmartins]

And what kind of liberation is this when an alien government takes
over a territory by force, imposes their law and does not even care for
the population's opinion? (ever!). Very good democracy indeed. And of
course, almost the same happened in all the other princely states just
after 1947. But at least in those states, the respective maharaja's were
"democratically" forced (or shall I say persuaded) to sign the
instruments of accession and merger (with perhaps the exception of
Kashmir who never signed the instrument of merger). In Goa, we were not
even given the choice (before or after 1961). It would have been nice to
have been given the choice after 1961. I would have expected at least
that from the so called largest democracy of the world.
And please, do not try to convince me we were all Indians in Goa anyway
and that India existed as a country for a million years so Goa should
have been also given back to India. We were all Indians just like the
Pakistanis were all Indians! So, why don't we call them Indians too? As
for the country we now call the Republic of India, it is nothing else
but a post-British period invention with 56 years now. And Goa, was
never before a part of it!
=20
Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself. I cannot remember
anyone asking you to represent all of us Goans in this forum. You
certainly do not represent me. I respect your opinion but we are all
different individuals and certainly have different ideas. Like Rui, I am
here to discuss my opinions, not to advice anyone.

BTW, will I ever have the pleasure of knowing your surname? Is it
Braganca? Or are you too ashamed of your Portuguese surname to mention
it?
=20
No cheers today!

Paulo Colaco Dias
===========================================================

I must add to the above the case of the Nizam of Hyderabad who chose to
seccede from the Indian Union or to remain independant. He was served an
ultimatum and invaded by the Indian Army. Valhabhai Patel was behind this move and
Nehru encouraged the take over. Today, Hyderabad is divided and the Nizam is a
nontity.

India's politics have been duplicitious. Nehru spoke and endorsed
panchasilla, one of whose tenets were to respect Goa's teritorial integrity. Nehru
was two faced. The incident that led to India invading Goa was created by
India. India does not permit people from other states to buy land in Kashmir and
in disputed Assamese areas but in Goa, its free for all. Goans are being duped
and defrauded of their land and they deserve this. Like Bandra and Santa Cruz
in Mumbai, Goans will be outsiders in Goa. Mark my word.

As per the above, Miguel distorts the postings by others to justify
falsehoods.
It is a pity that he only has one PHd and not more.

Edgar Martins

[Bernado Colaco]

Just goes to show the two faces of bharatis. They will
change sides and faces as it suits them. The clear
example of Timoja who helped the Portuguese defeat
Adil. Bharat will be colonized in one form or other.
The MNC's are now coming in a big way!



--- C Fernandes <goa at btinternet.com> wrote: > Passport
is ONLY a travel document.

People with more than one passport have a choice to
use an appropriate
passport depending upon where they travel and the
purpose of their travel.
IMHO, most people do not carry their passport to
show their patriotism.
When Kuwait was invaded, British Asians burnt their
British passport and
acquired Indian passport (probably by speaking
Indian language) just to get
out of Kuwait / Iraq / Jordan etc.

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk

[Tim de Mello]

From: EdgarStmartins at aol.com
Nationality and Goanness are not subject to definitions and using a
dictionary by Pundits is a waste of time. . . . .

==========

I agree that it is futile to debate who is or is not a Goan.
However, I think that nationality can be defined in terms of formal
citizenship.
I am a legal citizen of the U.K. and of Canada . . . and will also soon be
applying for citizenship of India.

So, I will have the nationality of three countries (eat your heart out, xac.
I am a Indian and proud of it.) but my allegiance will be to the country I
choose to reside in. Today, it is Canada. Very soon, it may, very probably,
be India.

I am a Goan and proud to be one. Does it matter if I fit the definition of
who is a Goan (as defined on GoaNet) or if the rest of the Goans (in Goa and
elsewhere) accept me (or not) as such? Or if they "like me" less or more?

Of course, it does not!


Tim de Mello
timdemello2 at hotmail.com
CANADA
===============

From: Bernado Colaco <ole_xac at yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: RE: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 04:17:05 +0100 (BST)
Just goes to show the two faces of bharatis. They will
change sides and faces as it suits them. The clear
example of Timoja who helped the Portuguese defeat
Adil. Bharat will be colonized in one form or other.
The MNC's are now coming in a big way!
--- C Fernandes <goa at btinternet.com> wrote: > Passport
is ONLY a travel document.

People with more than one passport have a choice to
use an appropriate
passport depending upon where they travel and the
purpose of their travel.
IMHO, most people do not carry their passport to
show their patriotism.
When Kuwait was invaded, British Asians burnt their
British passport and
acquired Indian passport (probably by speaking
Indian language) just to get
out of Kuwait / Iraq / Jordan etc.

_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

[C Fernandes]

The process of moving out from warring countries is NOT only followed by so
called "bharatis" but as I mentioned by most British Asians. It appears that
it is a human tendency to break whatever barrier put by other humans when it
comes to survival.

BTW, all Asians are NOT so called "bharatis".

Let us not forget that there are thousand of Portuguese people from Portugal
living in UK, having dual nationality (having British as well as Portuguese
passports) and whenever they go on overseas holidays they use their passport
which ever that suits to the holidaying country.

Until recently, Portuguese citizen visiting US needed visa but not British.
However, US visa requirements have it now changed.

Cip

-----Original Message-----
Bernado Colaco, Sent: 07 September 2003 04:17

Just goes to show the two faces of bharatis. They will change sides and
faces as it suits them. The clear example of Timoja who helped the
Portuguese defeat Adil. Bharat will be colonized in one form or other. The
MNC's are now coming in a big way!

--- C Fernandes <goa at btinternet.com> wrote: > Passport
is ONLY a travel document.

People with more than one passport have a choice to
use an appropriate
passport depending upon where they travel and the
purpose of their travel.
IMHO, most people do not carry their passport to
show their patriotism.
When Kuwait was invaded, British Asians burnt their
British passport and
acquired Indian passport (probably by speaking
Indian language) just to get
out of Kuwait / Iraq / Jordan etc.

[gilbert]

In spite of your sarcasm, and allusions to misinformation, I am not
in the business of manufacturing stats. They were taken from an
article by Dr. VA Pai Panandikar in Goa Today, Aug 2003. He was the
former President of the Centre of Policy Research, New Delhi. You
may like to read the article and get a little more educated about
Goa.
BTW, since you are jumping with joy that Portugal has now overtaken
the UK in reducing infant mortality by one less baby dead, why dont
you provide all the other HDR figures which place the UK way ahead of
Portugal in the same report.
The aim of the debate was not to compare countrys indicators, but to
rebut your wild and insubstantiated allegation that *neocolonists*
had ruined Goa since 1961. If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960
and again in 2000, and saw the all round improvement of all social
parameters, I can assure you that we would not be having this debate
in the first place.
regards, Gilbert--and thats my name.

Post by Rui Collaco
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on

Goanet. That's

Post by Rui Collaco
my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given by

"Gilbert" (why

Post by Rui Collaco
don't people identify themselves on Goanet?), seemed very good to

me, for a

Post by Rui Collaco
third world region. Some of them may even be true. However, if you

check the

Post by Rui Collaco
Union Budget 2003-2004, Economic Survey 2002-2003/Statistical

Table/Human

Post by Rui Collaco
Development Indicators/9.5 State-wise infant mortality rate
Infant mortality rate
1961 2001
India 115 71
Goa 57 36
This means that according to this most credible of Indian sources

of

Post by Rui Collaco
information, in 1961 the infant mortality rate in Goa was 57 (per

1000 live

Post by Rui Collaco
births), half the rate for India, and in 2001 (forty years later)

it was 36,

Post by Rui Collaco
still half the rate of India as a whole, but not even half the rate

of 40

Post by Rui Collaco
years before. What an achievement to boast about!
Gilbert was claiming that the rate for Goa was 70 in 1961, and is

now 11! He

Post by Rui Collaco
should check on his sources, unless he invented those rates. There

are no

Post by Rui Collaco
miracles these days, and I haven't heard about the Sultan of Brunei

buying

Post by Rui Collaco
up Goa, so there's no way the infant mortality rate could come down

from 36

Post by Rui Collaco
to 11 per thousand in two years!!! Or are we to conclude that

Indian

Post by Rui Collaco
statistics are a free-for-all?
This is what I call misinformation, whether deliberate or by

negligence.

Post by Rui Collaco
One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5.

The

Post by Rui Collaco
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development Report-

2003.

Post by Rui Collaco
Rui Manuel Colla?o
Lisbon

[Rui Collaco]

Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.

Which carries more weight for you as a source of information: an article on
"Goa Today" or the Economic Survey attached to the Union Budget, which is an
official Government document? For me the choice is obvious, which means that
Goa's infant mortality rate in 2001 was 36 per thousand.

I am not jumping with joy, not for so little. I only mentioned Portugal's
figures as an example of how in 31 years that rate came down from 53 to 5
(less than one tenth), whereas in Goa, the rate was reduced, in 40 years,
from 57 to 36, not even half the rate of 1961. And you were boasting about
this. You could perhaps come up with some other indicators but this one
should not make you proud. Even the former Pol Pot regime could manage that
or better in 40 years! You and other people on Goanet seem to think that the
rest of the world stopped in its tracks while Goa "marched ahead" after
1961. The "all round improvement in social parameters" applies to the entire
world, it's not Goa's exclusive achievement.

I can sense your irritation whenever Portugal is mentioned on this net, but
I find it very useful, for the benefit of those who take interest in these
matters, to supply some statistical data, to counter inaccuracies which are
taken for facts, if left unchecked.

What I said about the neocolonialists from New Delhi was not a "wild
allegation". It was said in response to a reply by Teotonio de Souza to a
posting of mine, in which he considered that Portugal's granting of
citizenship to Goans was a compensation for its "use and abuse of colonial
territory and people for 450 years". I did not say that the neocolonialists
had ruined Goa since 1961. That's what you claim that I said, which makes me
think that you have a reading and comprehension problem, because you keep
distorting the contents of my postings. By the way, why do you keep writing
"neocolonists"? Is that Indian English or you coined a new word? I'll stick
to "neocolonialists". But I am no expert in English, it's an alien language
to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.

Rui Miranda Colla?o

Lisbon

From: "gilbert" <gilmen30 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 11:20:38 -0000
In spite of your sarcasm, and allusions to misinformation, I am not
in the business of manufacturing stats. They were taken from an
article by Dr. VA Pai Panandikar in Goa Today, Aug 2003. He was the
former President of the Centre of Policy Research, New Delhi. You
may like to read the article and get a little more educated about
Goa.
BTW, since you are jumping with joy that Portugal has now overtaken
the UK in reducing infant mortality by one less baby dead, why dont
you provide all the other HDR figures which place the UK way ahead of
Portugal in the same report.
The aim of the debate was not to compare countrys indicators, but to
rebut your wild and insubstantiated allegation that *neocolonists*
had ruined Goa since 1961. If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960
and again in 2000, and saw the all round improvement of all social
parameters, I can assure you that we would not be having this debate
in the first place.
regards, Gilbert--and thats my name.

Post by Rui Collaco
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on

Goanet. That's

Post by Rui Collaco
my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given by

"Gilbert" (why

Post by Rui Collaco
don't people identify themselves on Goanet?), seemed very good to

me, for a

Post by Rui Collaco
third world region. Some of them may even be true. However, if you

check the

Post by Rui Collaco
Union Budget 2003-2004, Economic Survey 2002-2003/Statistical

Table/Human

Post by Rui Collaco
Development Indicators/9.5 State-wise infant mortality rate
Infant mortality rate
1961 2001
India 115 71
Goa 57 36
This means that according to this most credible of Indian sources

of

Post by Rui Collaco
information, in 1961 the infant mortality rate in Goa was 57 (per

1000 live

Post by Rui Collaco
births), half the rate for India, and in 2001 (forty years later)

it was 36,

Post by Rui Collaco
still half the rate of India as a whole, but not even half the rate

of 40

Post by Rui Collaco
years before. What an achievement to boast about!
Gilbert was claiming that the rate for Goa was 70 in 1961, and is

now 11! He

Post by Rui Collaco
should check on his sources, unless he invented those rates. There

are no

Post by Rui Collaco
miracles these days, and I haven't heard about the Sultan of Brunei

buying

Post by Rui Collaco
up Goa, so there's no way the infant mortality rate could come down

from 36

Post by Rui Collaco
to 11 per thousand in two years!!! Or are we to conclude that

Indian

Post by Rui Collaco
statistics are a free-for-all?
This is what I call misinformation, whether deliberate or by

negligence.

Post by Rui Collaco
One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5.

The

Post by Rui Collaco
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development Report-

2003.

Post by Rui Collaco
Rui Manuel Colla?o
Lisbon

##########################################################################
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# PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts #
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# Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others #
##########################################################################

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[Santosh Helekar]

In a message dated 9/2/03 12:23:29 AM Central Daylight Time,

Post by Rui Collaco
Which carries more weight for you as a source of information: an
article on "Goa Today" or the Economic Survey attached to the Union
Budget, which is an official Government document? For me the choice
is obvious, which means that Goa's infant mortality rate in 2001 was
36 per thousand.

As I had written in a post that did not appear on Goanet for some
reason, there is a problem with the above figure. The official figure
for the infant mortality rate has fluctuated from 4 per 1000 to 27
per 1000 over the past decade or so. The Registrar General in charge
of the Sample Registration System (SRS) of the Census of India
publishes a bulletin each year. According to this SRS bulletin the
rate was 4 per 1000 live births in 1994. It was 23 per 1000 in 2002.
In 1999-2000, it was 13.12, according to Dr. Jose de Sa of the Goa
State Family Welfare Bureau. In other years, these rates have varied
around 17 per 1000. It may well be 11 per 1000 in 2003.

Cheers,

Santosh

[gilbert]

Post by Rui Collaco
Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.

By the way, why do you keep writing

Post by Rui Collaco
"neocolonists"? Is that Indian English or you coined a new word?

I'll stick

Post by Rui Collaco
to "neocolonialists". But I am no expert in English, it's an alien

language

Post by Rui Collaco
to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.
Rui Miranda Colla?o
Lisbon

-------------------------------
The word intended was *neocolonialist* Thanks for the correction, but
do I trace a faint hint of sarcasm in your comment?!!
regards, Gilbert.

[Colaco-Dias, Paulo]

Gosh,

I have never ever encountered so much redundancy in a single post.

The net value of your post was nil! But then that is what happens when
one runs out of valid arguments. The only way out is to attack and
resource to remarks with no possible factual validation. For example,
your statement that I am a friend of Bernado. How did you conclude that?
The first time I established direct contact with Bernado was yesterday
when I asked him from where he was. Before that, I only heard from his
posts that are daring but, nonetheless, present valid arguments many
times.

How did you conclude that I live in Portugal? Most people on Goanet know
that I live in London and have lived in London since 1995. But you not
only took it for granted but also issued a statement that I live in
Portugal.

The problem with you is that you issue false statements in your posts
without checking the validity. Most contributors start by saying "I
believe", or "In my opinion", "According to the data published...", etc.
But you actually issue statements as though they are valid just because
you said them and you even go to the point to justify that you have read
that in "many newspapers" or in the media in Goa! I honestly think you
should revise what you want to say and look for the validity of those
statements before posting them.

Despite what you might think, your name Miguel is not rare. There are
hundreds (if not thousands) of Migueis in Goa. Hence my humble request
to know your surname. I think it is not too much to ask, is it?

I also believe you have been in this forum for the past year or so,
hence I had never heard of you. For your information, I have been an
on-and-off member of GoaNet since 1994. Even though everybody knows me
very well, I have always identified myself to the full. If I have signed
as Paulo only, my e-mail id contains Paulo Colaco-Dias while yours
contains only Miguel or Miguel12 - not very revealing, is it?

Also, I can't see how by getting my DNA testing is going to reveal if I
am an Indian or anything else. Did you find that in your hard(ly)
factual-based research that Indians have different genes that can help
to distinguish themselves from the other human beings?

Where did I mention in my post "Portuguese descent"??? I do not have any
claims of that sort. You are again speculating and again issuing false
statements. Your posts are just as bad as they can get in terms of false
statements. Are you one of those who discriminate against "mesticos",
"descendentes" or "mulatos"??? Even though I am not one of them, I find
that most unfortunate in many of us Goans.

My request to you: "Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for
yourself", was in response to your statement that "we Goans do not need
Rui's advice".
Firstly, Rui was not giving any advices. He was merely responding to
other contributor's opinions/discussions.
I know Rui extremely well and that gives me the right to defend and
support him and his views which I second 100%. You would do the same for
your best mate. But you do not know me and I would never allow you to
include myself in your definition of "we". Is that crystal clear now or
shall I draw it for you so that you can understand?

The last part of your post is so rude that I am not even going to bother
replying. It speaks a lot for the person you are. Could not find any
indications of "Arcanjo". But, thanks for letting me know. I will keep
that in mind just before pressing the delete button next time.

Paulo Colaco Dias.



-----Original Message-----
From: Miguel [mailto:miguel12 at sancharnet.in]
Sent: 03 September 2003 04:44
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators

Dear Paulo Colaco-Dias,
There is just one Miguel posting on Goanet,so I do not see the need to
write
my surname every time. I am definitely not ashamed of my name.I am proud
to
be a Braganca[I write it as Braganza,for I hate to be called Braganka
for
want of a proper type face or key]Both my parents are Braganca. I am
Miguel
Arcanjo Braganca,joneiro/gaunkar of Communidade Agricole de Mapusa and a
parishioner of St.Jerome's Church famous for its Milagres feast(Festa da
Nossa Senhora das Milagres).My residential address and phone number can
be
given to you on request. Your friend Bernado Colaco does not have the
courage to do likewise.
Aquino Braganca is not my first cousin:he is one generation older to me.
I
only stated that he was born in Goa to differentiate from Rui Colaco,who
was
born in Mocambique.He and my uncle Luis were in Mocambique.They made
different choices and both were different from the one that Rui
made.That
was the purpose of the statement. Nothing else. We have lots of
achievers in
my family.I was not boasting about Aquino and Luis;just stating an
example.
I think you can understand that. If you cannot,I am wasting my time.

Granted that most our parents[and many of us on the goanet who were born
upto 18 December,1961] were Portuguese nationals by virtue of being born
in
the Estado da India.Unless you have European blood in you,I do not see
the
Portuguese descent. I am 100% Goan[not mulatto,descendent or mestizo or
,for
that matter ,siddhi/abyssinian]and that makes me an Indian. You may be
confused about that.I am not. Get your DNA tested.

Pakistani,Nepali and Bangladeshi peoples belong to the Indian
sub-continent.They just have different nationalities. The Bangladeshi
people
are Bengali.Till December,1971,they were called East Pakistani and
before
1947 they were Indians.One does not change one's genes with one's
nationality,citizenship or passport. Those who think they do,delude
themselves.

I have accepted the differentiation that Rui made between 'running a
casino'
and living off its profits. Since you are harping on it,I would like to
add
that a pimp who lives on the earnings of a prostitute does not become
more
respectable than the prostitute.At least the prostitute works for her
living---even though it is mostly on her back. Does that clear your
doubt.
After 1999,one prostitute's earnings were no longer available to those
who
would like to venerate the veneral.Viva Macau!

To me Rui is an intelligent,balanced person.You do him dis-service by
picking up his cause. He is capable of handling it in a more gentlemanly
manner."Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself" . I do not
recall Rui authorizing you to post on his behalf. Practice what you
preach.

I speak and write for myself. If you want to advise Goans in Goa[I am
one of
them],come down here,surrender your passport ,nationality and
citizenship of
Portugal and talk.If you do not have that courage,hold your peace.
Sitting
in Portugal you can talk of corruption in India.You will sing a
different
tune if you are sentenced to a jail term for libel/defamation in India.
Have
courage to face the consequences,or continue as differently coloured
citizen
of an adopted land.

If you have a problem with other national of your adopted country,that
is
your problem.Solve it in Portugal,in Portuguese or any other language of
your choice. Why are you wasting time and space on Goanet?

If you lack cheer in Portugal,drink Porto,Tinto or Azeite de Antonio*
Oliviera* Salazar!

Or join Mocidade Portuguesa.

Cheers! Viva Goa!!

Miguel Arcanjo de Braganca

[Bernado Colaco]

Hi Miguel,

Some more info on Portugal's social indicators: The
latest figures on life expectancy has now gone up to
79,5%. The death rate at child birth and upto 5 years
has been reduced by 22,6% since 1961.

Kind regards

Bernado Cola?o

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
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[Tim de Mello]

From: Miguel <miguel12 at sancharnet.in>
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:19:12 +0530
We are better off in Goa now than in 1961.In Portugal people may be still
better off than us.Let them rejoice in their progress as we do in ours.
Goans do not preach to the Portuguese[white skinned or otherwise] how to
keep up with the Brits.We do not want to be preached at either.If they feel
we are not as well off as they are, let them send us Euros instead of
futile
postings on goanet. Let the Portuguese conduct their debate on their own
net
groups[start a new one if there isn't one to accommodate all the 'Goa
experts' in that country].Goanet is not for Portuguese hegemony. Those days
are long past, placed in the non-biodegradable garbage dump of history!
Rui
will understand this;it is beyond the level of a bigot like Bernado.
VIVA GOA ! JAI HIND!!
Miguel

--------------

Miguel:

Just so you know - I fully support what you say. Just because we, "the
silent majority" do not actively contribute to this debate, does not mean we
do not have a point of view.

We just do not have the same stamina as the Xacs and Ruis of this world.

I just wish they could do something more productive with all that energy!


Tim de Mello
CANADA

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

[Rui Collaco]

You are an expert at inventing futile issues, but this time I shall clarify
your ackward perplexity. My name is Rui Manuel Miranda Colla?o, and
obviously you were in no doubt about it. I enjoy confusing some susceptible
minds.

Long names are not a Portuguese tradition, they are a Goan one. Most
Portuguese people I know have short names. Of course some surnames can be
long, but you can't change them. Please find better issues for your daily
Portugal-bashing feature.

It is funny to quote Disraeli when statistics are of no use to you! Of
course you can't question them in a serious way. When I read your postings,
I think that some of your ideas belong to the time B. Disraeli lived. For
instance, I can see, reading the post below, that you have a serious problem
with the colour of your skin. I presume you are very brown and you don't
like it, and you have an inferiority complex. Above all, you can't figure
out how people of your colour can live in countries like Portugal, where the
majority is white. But I cannot explain properly to you how easy it is to
live in this country as a brown or even a black. For me it's a non-issue,
and also for the majority of my countryman. Only if you come here and see
for yourself you may rid your mind of the cobwebs that fill it. Meanwhile
you may continue with your sarcasms about skin colour - you only cover
yourself with ridicule.

I know you are very upset at having some people standing up at some
utterances on Goanet, and actually setting the record straight. I believe
it's a free forum, that's the marvel of internet. Why can't you
democratically accept other people?s views? It would appear that you
inherited Salazar's traits. You want to shut me out of Goanet, but I have no
intention of following your suggestion. I shall send postings to Goanet
whenever I feel like, or better still, whenever people like you give me a
good reason to. as for the euros, bad luck, no euros left for you. Your
elected Government makes sure no Portuguese euros reach Goa. They are going
to East Timor instead, lots of them. The East Timorese welcome them, and do
their thanking in Portuguese.

Rui Colla?o

Lisbon

From: Miguel <miguel12 at sancharnet.in>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:19:12 +0530
I know that "Gilbert" on the net is Dr.Gilbert Lawrence. Is the "Rui
*Miranda* Collaco" on Goanet at goanet.org the same as the "Rui *Manuel*
Collaco" on Goanet2003 at yahoogroups.com who asks Gilbert, "why don't people
identify themselves on Goanet?"
The Portuguese tradition of giving the hapless infant a 'litany' instead of
a 'name' leaves customs officials in most countries breathless while
confirming the identity of the traveller[ I am one victim of this
tradition].Is Rui getting confused about the three names he chose to
use--or
are there two of a kind from Lisbon on the net?
"There are three kinds of lies: lies,damned lies and statistics"
Nothing different in India or Portugal.Even in UK ,they recently 'sexed up'
data on Iraq!All is fair in love and war.So what if Dr.Kelly died
'mysteriously' for stating the truth?
We are better off in Goa now than in 1961.In Portugal people may be still
better off than us.Let them rejoice in their progress as we do in ours.
Goans do not preach to the Portuguese[white skinned or otherwise] how to
keep up with the Brits.We do not want to be preached at either.If they feel
we are not as well off as they are, let them send us Euros instead of
futile
postings on goanet. Let the Portuguese conduct their debate on their own
net
groups[start a new one if there isn't one to accommodate all the 'Goa
experts' in that country].Goanet is not for Portuguese hegemony. Those days
are long past, placed in the non-biodegradable garbage dump of history!
Rui
will understand this;it is beyond the level of a bigot like Bernado.
VIVA GOA ! JAI HIND!!
Miguel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators

Post by Rui Collaco
Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.

But I am no expert in English, it's an alien language

Post by Rui Collaco
to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.
* Rui Miranda Colla?o*
Lisbon

If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960and again in 2000, and saw the all
round improvement of all socialparameters, I can assure you that we would
not be having this debatein the first place.
regards,
Gilbert--and thats my name.

Post by Rui Collaco

Post by Rui Collaco
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on

Goanet. That's my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators

given
by

Post by Rui Collaco

"Gilbert" (*why don't people identify themselves on Goanet?*), seemed

very good to

Post by Rui Collaco

me, for a third world region

Post by Rui Collaco
One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now

5.The

Post by Rui Collaco

Post by Rui Collaco
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development

Report-2003.

Post by Rui Collaco

* Rui Manuel Colla?o*

Post by Rui Collaco
Lisbon

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[Colaco-Dias, Paulo]

Post by Colaco-Dias, Paulo
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim de Mello [mailto:timdemello2 at hotmail.com]
Sent: quarta-feira, 3 de Setembro de 2003 21:12
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Just so you know - I fully support what you say. Just because we, "the
silent majority" do not actively contribute to this debate, does not

mean >we

Post by Colaco-Dias, Paulo
do not have a point of view.
We just do not have the same stamina as the Xacs and Ruis of this

world.

Post by Colaco-Dias, Paulo
I just wish they could do something more productive with all that

energy!

Post by Colaco-Dias, Paulo
Tim de Mello
CANADA

Tim, I am afraid keeping silent and agreeing with Miguel is not enough.
According to Miguel's last post, he wants you and everybody else to go
back to Goa, surrender your foreign passports and fight for the future
of Goa like a true Goan. So I guess you must still be in agreement and I
guess you will be soon leaving Toronto to join Miguel in the Goa's
downgrading process of true JAI HIND!

[EdgarStmartins]

And what kind of liberation is this when an alien government takes
over a territory by force, imposes their law and does not even care for
the population's opinion? (ever!). Very good democracy indeed. And of
course, almost the same happened in all the other princely states just
after 1947. But at least in those states, the respective maharaja's were
"democratically" forced (or shall I say persuaded) to sign the
instruments of accession and merger (with perhaps the exception of
Kashmir who never signed the instrument of merger). In Goa, we were not
even given the choice (before or after 1961). It would have been nice to
have been given the choice after 1961. I would have expected at least
that from the so called largest democracy of the world.
And please, do not try to convince me we were all Indians in Goa anyway
and that India existed as a country for a million years so Goa should
have been also given back to India. We were all Indians just like the
Pakistanis were all Indians! So, why don't we call them Indians too? As
for the country we now call the Republic of India, it is nothing else
but a post-British period invention with 56 years now. And Goa, was
never before a part of it!
=20
Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself. I cannot remember
anyone asking you to represent all of us Goans in this forum. You
certainly do not represent me. I respect your opinion but we are all
different individuals and certainly have different ideas. Like Rui, I am
here to discuss my opinions, not to advice anyone.

BTW, will I ever have the pleasure of knowing your surname? Is it
Braganca? Or are you too ashamed of your Portuguese surname to mention
it?
=20
No cheers today!

Paulo Colaco Dias
===========================================================

I must add to the above the case of the Nizam of Hyderabad who chose to
seccede from the Indian Union or to remain independant. He was served an
ultimatum and invaded by the Indian Army. Valhabhai Patel was behind this move and
Nehru encouraged the take over. Today, Hyderabad is divided and the Nizam is a
nontity.

India's politics have been duplicitious. Nehru spoke and endorsed
panchasilla, one of whose tenets were to respect Goa's teritorial integrity. Nehru
was two faced. The incident that led to India invading Goa was created by
India. India does not permit people from other states to buy land in Kashmir and
in disputed Assamese areas but in Goa, its free for all. Goans are being duped
and defrauded of their land and they deserve this. Like Bandra and Santa Cruz
in Mumbai, Goans will be outsiders in Goa. Mark my word.

As per the above, Miguel distorts the postings by others to justify
falsehoods.
It is a pity that he only has one PHd and not more.

Edgar Martins

[Bernado Colaco]

Just goes to show the two faces of bharatis. They will
change sides and faces as it suits them. The clear
example of Timoja who helped the Portuguese defeat
Adil. Bharat will be colonized in one form or other.
The MNC's are now coming in a big way!



--- C Fernandes <goa at btinternet.com> wrote: > Passport
is ONLY a travel document.

People with more than one passport have a choice to
use an appropriate
passport depending upon where they travel and the
purpose of their travel.
IMHO, most people do not carry their passport to
show their patriotism.
When Kuwait was invaded, British Asians burnt their
British passport and
acquired Indian passport (probably by speaking
Indian language) just to get
out of Kuwait / Iraq / Jordan etc.

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk

[Tim de Mello]

From: EdgarStmartins at aol.com
Nationality and Goanness are not subject to definitions and using a
dictionary by Pundits is a waste of time. . . . .

==========

I agree that it is futile to debate who is or is not a Goan.
However, I think that nationality can be defined in terms of formal
citizenship.
I am a legal citizen of the U.K. and of Canada . . . and will also soon be
applying for citizenship of India.

So, I will have the nationality of three countries (eat your heart out, xac.
I am a Indian and proud of it.) but my allegiance will be to the country I
choose to reside in. Today, it is Canada. Very soon, it may, very probably,
be India.

I am a Goan and proud to be one. Does it matter if I fit the definition of
who is a Goan (as defined on GoaNet) or if the rest of the Goans (in Goa and
elsewhere) accept me (or not) as such? Or if they "like me" less or more?

Of course, it does not!


Tim de Mello
timdemello2 at hotmail.com
CANADA
===============

From: Bernado Colaco <ole_xac at yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: RE: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 04:17:05 +0100 (BST)
Just goes to show the two faces of bharatis. They will
change sides and faces as it suits them. The clear
example of Timoja who helped the Portuguese defeat
Adil. Bharat will be colonized in one form or other.
The MNC's are now coming in a big way!
--- C Fernandes <goa at btinternet.com> wrote: > Passport
is ONLY a travel document.

People with more than one passport have a choice to
use an appropriate
passport depending upon where they travel and the
purpose of their travel.
IMHO, most people do not carry their passport to
show their patriotism.
When Kuwait was invaded, British Asians burnt their
British passport and
acquired Indian passport (probably by speaking
Indian language) just to get
out of Kuwait / Iraq / Jordan etc.

_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

[C Fernandes]

The process of moving out from warring countries is NOT only followed by so
called "bharatis" but as I mentioned by most British Asians. It appears that
it is a human tendency to break whatever barrier put by other humans when it
comes to survival.

BTW, all Asians are NOT so called "bharatis".

Let us not forget that there are thousand of Portuguese people from Portugal
living in UK, having dual nationality (having British as well as Portuguese
passports) and whenever they go on overseas holidays they use their passport
which ever that suits to the holidaying country.

Until recently, Portuguese citizen visiting US needed visa but not British.
However, US visa requirements have it now changed.

Cip

-----Original Message-----
Bernado Colaco, Sent: 07 September 2003 04:17

Just goes to show the two faces of bharatis. They will change sides and
faces as it suits them. The clear example of Timoja who helped the
Portuguese defeat Adil. Bharat will be colonized in one form or other. The
MNC's are now coming in a big way!

--- C Fernandes <goa at btinternet.com> wrote: > Passport
is ONLY a travel document.

People with more than one passport have a choice to
use an appropriate
passport depending upon where they travel and the
purpose of their travel.
IMHO, most people do not carry their passport to
show their patriotism.
When Kuwait was invaded, British Asians burnt their
British passport and
acquired Indian passport (probably by speaking
Indian language) just to get
out of Kuwait / Iraq / Jordan etc.

[gilbert]

In spite of your sarcasm, and allusions to misinformation, I am not
in the business of manufacturing stats. They were taken from an
article by Dr. VA Pai Panandikar in Goa Today, Aug 2003. He was the
former President of the Centre of Policy Research, New Delhi. You
may like to read the article and get a little more educated about
Goa.
BTW, since you are jumping with joy that Portugal has now overtaken
the UK in reducing infant mortality by one less baby dead, why dont
you provide all the other HDR figures which place the UK way ahead of
Portugal in the same report.
The aim of the debate was not to compare countrys indicators, but to
rebut your wild and insubstantiated allegation that *neocolonists*
had ruined Goa since 1961. If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960
and again in 2000, and saw the all round improvement of all social
parameters, I can assure you that we would not be having this debate
in the first place.
regards, Gilbert--and thats my name.

Post by Rui Collaco
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on

Goanet. That's

Post by Rui Collaco
my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given by

"Gilbert" (why

Post by Rui Collaco
don't people identify themselves on Goanet?), seemed very good to

me, for a

Post by Rui Collaco
third world region. Some of them may even be true. However, if you

check the

Post by Rui Collaco
Union Budget 2003-2004, Economic Survey 2002-2003/Statistical

Table/Human

Post by Rui Collaco
Development Indicators/9.5 State-wise infant mortality rate
Infant mortality rate
1961 2001
India 115 71
Goa 57 36
This means that according to this most credible of Indian sources

of

Post by Rui Collaco
information, in 1961 the infant mortality rate in Goa was 57 (per

1000 live

Post by Rui Collaco
births), half the rate for India, and in 2001 (forty years later)

it was 36,

Post by Rui Collaco
still half the rate of India as a whole, but not even half the rate

of 40

Post by Rui Collaco
years before. What an achievement to boast about!
Gilbert was claiming that the rate for Goa was 70 in 1961, and is

now 11! He

Post by Rui Collaco
should check on his sources, unless he invented those rates. There

are no

Post by Rui Collaco
miracles these days, and I haven't heard about the Sultan of Brunei

buying

Post by Rui Collaco
up Goa, so there's no way the infant mortality rate could come down

from 36

Post by Rui Collaco
to 11 per thousand in two years!!! Or are we to conclude that

Indian

Post by Rui Collaco
statistics are a free-for-all?
This is what I call misinformation, whether deliberate or by

negligence.

Post by Rui Collaco
One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5.

The

Post by Rui Collaco
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development Report-

2003.

Post by Rui Collaco
Rui Manuel Colla?o
Lisbon

[Rui Collaco]

Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.

Which carries more weight for you as a source of information: an article on
"Goa Today" or the Economic Survey attached to the Union Budget, which is an
official Government document? For me the choice is obvious, which means that
Goa's infant mortality rate in 2001 was 36 per thousand.

I am not jumping with joy, not for so little. I only mentioned Portugal's
figures as an example of how in 31 years that rate came down from 53 to 5
(less than one tenth), whereas in Goa, the rate was reduced, in 40 years,
from 57 to 36, not even half the rate of 1961. And you were boasting about
this. You could perhaps come up with some other indicators but this one
should not make you proud. Even the former Pol Pot regime could manage that
or better in 40 years! You and other people on Goanet seem to think that the
rest of the world stopped in its tracks while Goa "marched ahead" after
1961. The "all round improvement in social parameters" applies to the entire
world, it's not Goa's exclusive achievement.

I can sense your irritation whenever Portugal is mentioned on this net, but
I find it very useful, for the benefit of those who take interest in these
matters, to supply some statistical data, to counter inaccuracies which are
taken for facts, if left unchecked.

What I said about the neocolonialists from New Delhi was not a "wild
allegation". It was said in response to a reply by Teotonio de Souza to a
posting of mine, in which he considered that Portugal's granting of
citizenship to Goans was a compensation for its "use and abuse of colonial
territory and people for 450 years". I did not say that the neocolonialists
had ruined Goa since 1961. That's what you claim that I said, which makes me
think that you have a reading and comprehension problem, because you keep
distorting the contents of my postings. By the way, why do you keep writing
"neocolonists"? Is that Indian English or you coined a new word? I'll stick
to "neocolonialists". But I am no expert in English, it's an alien language
to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.

Rui Miranda Colla?o

Lisbon

From: "gilbert" <gilmen30 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 11:20:38 -0000
In spite of your sarcasm, and allusions to misinformation, I am not
in the business of manufacturing stats. They were taken from an
article by Dr. VA Pai Panandikar in Goa Today, Aug 2003. He was the
former President of the Centre of Policy Research, New Delhi. You
may like to read the article and get a little more educated about
Goa.
BTW, since you are jumping with joy that Portugal has now overtaken
the UK in reducing infant mortality by one less baby dead, why dont
you provide all the other HDR figures which place the UK way ahead of
Portugal in the same report.
The aim of the debate was not to compare countrys indicators, but to
rebut your wild and insubstantiated allegation that *neocolonists*
had ruined Goa since 1961. If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960
and again in 2000, and saw the all round improvement of all social
parameters, I can assure you that we would not be having this debate
in the first place.
regards, Gilbert--and thats my name.

Post by Rui Collaco
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on

Goanet. That's

Post by Rui Collaco
my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given by

"Gilbert" (why

Post by Rui Collaco
don't people identify themselves on Goanet?), seemed very good to

me, for a

Post by Rui Collaco
third world region. Some of them may even be true. However, if you

check the

Post by Rui Collaco
Union Budget 2003-2004, Economic Survey 2002-2003/Statistical

Table/Human

Post by Rui Collaco
Development Indicators/9.5 State-wise infant mortality rate
Infant mortality rate
1961 2001
India 115 71
Goa 57 36
This means that according to this most credible of Indian sources

of

Post by Rui Collaco
information, in 1961 the infant mortality rate in Goa was 57 (per

1000 live

Post by Rui Collaco
births), half the rate for India, and in 2001 (forty years later)

it was 36,

Post by Rui Collaco
still half the rate of India as a whole, but not even half the rate

of 40

Post by Rui Collaco
years before. What an achievement to boast about!
Gilbert was claiming that the rate for Goa was 70 in 1961, and is

now 11! He

Post by Rui Collaco
should check on his sources, unless he invented those rates. There

are no

Post by Rui Collaco
miracles these days, and I haven't heard about the Sultan of Brunei

buying

Post by Rui Collaco
up Goa, so there's no way the infant mortality rate could come down

from 36

Post by Rui Collaco
to 11 per thousand in two years!!! Or are we to conclude that

Indian

Post by Rui Collaco
statistics are a free-for-all?
This is what I call misinformation, whether deliberate or by

negligence.

Post by Rui Collaco
One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5.

The

Post by Rui Collaco
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development Report-

2003.

Post by Rui Collaco
Rui Manuel Colla?o
Lisbon

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[Santosh Helekar]

In a message dated 9/2/03 12:23:29 AM Central Daylight Time,

Post by Rui Collaco
Which carries more weight for you as a source of information: an
article on "Goa Today" or the Economic Survey attached to the Union
Budget, which is an official Government document? For me the choice
is obvious, which means that Goa's infant mortality rate in 2001 was
36 per thousand.

As I had written in a post that did not appear on Goanet for some
reason, there is a problem with the above figure. The official figure
for the infant mortality rate has fluctuated from 4 per 1000 to 27
per 1000 over the past decade or so. The Registrar General in charge
of the Sample Registration System (SRS) of the Census of India
publishes a bulletin each year. According to this SRS bulletin the
rate was 4 per 1000 live births in 1994. It was 23 per 1000 in 2002.
In 1999-2000, it was 13.12, according to Dr. Jose de Sa of the Goa
State Family Welfare Bureau. In other years, these rates have varied
around 17 per 1000. It may well be 11 per 1000 in 2003.

Cheers,

Santosh

[gilbert]

Post by Rui Collaco
Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.

By the way, why do you keep writing

Post by Rui Collaco
"neocolonists"? Is that Indian English or you coined a new word?

I'll stick

Post by Rui Collaco
to "neocolonialists". But I am no expert in English, it's an alien

language

Post by Rui Collaco
to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.
Rui Miranda Colla?o
Lisbon

-------------------------------
The word intended was *neocolonialist* Thanks for the correction, but
do I trace a faint hint of sarcasm in your comment?!!
regards, Gilbert.

[Colaco-Dias, Paulo]

Gosh,

I have never ever encountered so much redundancy in a single post.

The net value of your post was nil! But then that is what happens when
one runs out of valid arguments. The only way out is to attack and
resource to remarks with no possible factual validation. For example,
your statement that I am a friend of Bernado. How did you conclude that?
The first time I established direct contact with Bernado was yesterday
when I asked him from where he was. Before that, I only heard from his
posts that are daring but, nonetheless, present valid arguments many
times.

How did you conclude that I live in Portugal? Most people on Goanet know
that I live in London and have lived in London since 1995. But you not
only took it for granted but also issued a statement that I live in
Portugal.

The problem with you is that you issue false statements in your posts
without checking the validity. Most contributors start by saying "I
believe", or "In my opinion", "According to the data published...", etc.
But you actually issue statements as though they are valid just because
you said them and you even go to the point to justify that you have read
that in "many newspapers" or in the media in Goa! I honestly think you
should revise what you want to say and look for the validity of those
statements before posting them.

Despite what you might think, your name Miguel is not rare. There are
hundreds (if not thousands) of Migueis in Goa. Hence my humble request
to know your surname. I think it is not too much to ask, is it?

I also believe you have been in this forum for the past year or so,
hence I had never heard of you. For your information, I have been an
on-and-off member of GoaNet since 1994. Even though everybody knows me
very well, I have always identified myself to the full. If I have signed
as Paulo only, my e-mail id contains Paulo Colaco-Dias while yours
contains only Miguel or Miguel12 - not very revealing, is it?

Also, I can't see how by getting my DNA testing is going to reveal if I
am an Indian or anything else. Did you find that in your hard(ly)
factual-based research that Indians have different genes that can help
to distinguish themselves from the other human beings?

Where did I mention in my post "Portuguese descent"??? I do not have any
claims of that sort. You are again speculating and again issuing false
statements. Your posts are just as bad as they can get in terms of false
statements. Are you one of those who discriminate against "mesticos",
"descendentes" or "mulatos"??? Even though I am not one of them, I find
that most unfortunate in many of us Goans.

My request to you: "Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for
yourself", was in response to your statement that "we Goans do not need
Rui's advice".
Firstly, Rui was not giving any advices. He was merely responding to
other contributor's opinions/discussions.
I know Rui extremely well and that gives me the right to defend and
support him and his views which I second 100%. You would do the same for
your best mate. But you do not know me and I would never allow you to
include myself in your definition of "we". Is that crystal clear now or
shall I draw it for you so that you can understand?

The last part of your post is so rude that I am not even going to bother
replying. It speaks a lot for the person you are. Could not find any
indications of "Arcanjo". But, thanks for letting me know. I will keep
that in mind just before pressing the delete button next time.

Paulo Colaco Dias.



-----Original Message-----
From: Miguel [mailto:miguel12 at sancharnet.in]
Sent: 03 September 2003 04:44
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators

Dear Paulo Colaco-Dias,
There is just one Miguel posting on Goanet,so I do not see the need to
write
my surname every time. I am definitely not ashamed of my name.I am proud
to
be a Braganca[I write it as Braganza,for I hate to be called Braganka
for
want of a proper type face or key]Both my parents are Braganca. I am
Miguel
Arcanjo Braganca,joneiro/gaunkar of Communidade Agricole de Mapusa and a
parishioner of St.Jerome's Church famous for its Milagres feast(Festa da
Nossa Senhora das Milagres).My residential address and phone number can
be
given to you on request. Your friend Bernado Colaco does not have the
courage to do likewise.
Aquino Braganca is not my first cousin:he is one generation older to me.
I
only stated that he was born in Goa to differentiate from Rui Colaco,who
was
born in Mocambique.He and my uncle Luis were in Mocambique.They made
different choices and both were different from the one that Rui
made.That
was the purpose of the statement. Nothing else. We have lots of
achievers in
my family.I was not boasting about Aquino and Luis;just stating an
example.
I think you can understand that. If you cannot,I am wasting my time.

Granted that most our parents[and many of us on the goanet who were born
upto 18 December,1961] were Portuguese nationals by virtue of being born
in
the Estado da India.Unless you have European blood in you,I do not see
the
Portuguese descent. I am 100% Goan[not mulatto,descendent or mestizo or
,for
that matter ,siddhi/abyssinian]and that makes me an Indian. You may be
confused about that.I am not. Get your DNA tested.

Pakistani,Nepali and Bangladeshi peoples belong to the Indian
sub-continent.They just have different nationalities. The Bangladeshi
people
are Bengali.Till December,1971,they were called East Pakistani and
before
1947 they were Indians.One does not change one's genes with one's
nationality,citizenship or passport. Those who think they do,delude
themselves.

I have accepted the differentiation that Rui made between 'running a
casino'
and living off its profits. Since you are harping on it,I would like to
add
that a pimp who lives on the earnings of a prostitute does not become
more
respectable than the prostitute.At least the prostitute works for her
living---even though it is mostly on her back. Does that clear your
doubt.
After 1999,one prostitute's earnings were no longer available to those
who
would like to venerate the veneral.Viva Macau!

To me Rui is an intelligent,balanced person.You do him dis-service by
picking up his cause. He is capable of handling it in a more gentlemanly
manner."Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself" . I do not
recall Rui authorizing you to post on his behalf. Practice what you
preach.

I speak and write for myself. If you want to advise Goans in Goa[I am
one of
them],come down here,surrender your passport ,nationality and
citizenship of
Portugal and talk.If you do not have that courage,hold your peace.
Sitting
in Portugal you can talk of corruption in India.You will sing a
different
tune if you are sentenced to a jail term for libel/defamation in India.
Have
courage to face the consequences,or continue as differently coloured
citizen
of an adopted land.

If you have a problem with other national of your adopted country,that
is
your problem.Solve it in Portugal,in Portuguese or any other language of
your choice. Why are you wasting time and space on Goanet?

If you lack cheer in Portugal,drink Porto,Tinto or Azeite de Antonio*
Oliviera* Salazar!

Or join Mocidade Portuguesa.

Cheers! Viva Goa!!

Miguel Arcanjo de Braganca

[Bernado Colaco]

Hi Miguel,

Some more info on Portugal's social indicators: The
latest figures on life expectancy has now gone up to
79,5%. The death rate at child birth and upto 5 years
has been reduced by 22,6% since 1961.

Kind regards

Bernado Cola?o

________________________________________________________________________
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[Tim de Mello]

From: Miguel <miguel12 at sancharnet.in>
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:19:12 +0530
We are better off in Goa now than in 1961.In Portugal people may be still
better off than us.Let them rejoice in their progress as we do in ours.
Goans do not preach to the Portuguese[white skinned or otherwise] how to
keep up with the Brits.We do not want to be preached at either.If they feel
we are not as well off as they are, let them send us Euros instead of
futile
postings on goanet. Let the Portuguese conduct their debate on their own
net
groups[start a new one if there isn't one to accommodate all the 'Goa
experts' in that country].Goanet is not for Portuguese hegemony. Those days
are long past, placed in the non-biodegradable garbage dump of history!
Rui
will understand this;it is beyond the level of a bigot like Bernado.
VIVA GOA ! JAI HIND!!
Miguel

--------------

Miguel:

Just so you know - I fully support what you say. Just because we, "the
silent majority" do not actively contribute to this debate, does not mean we
do not have a point of view.

We just do not have the same stamina as the Xacs and Ruis of this world.

I just wish they could do something more productive with all that energy!


Tim de Mello
CANADA

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
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[Rui Collaco]

You are an expert at inventing futile issues, but this time I shall clarify
your ackward perplexity. My name is Rui Manuel Miranda Colla?o, and
obviously you were in no doubt about it. I enjoy confusing some susceptible
minds.

Long names are not a Portuguese tradition, they are a Goan one. Most
Portuguese people I know have short names. Of course some surnames can be
long, but you can't change them. Please find better issues for your daily
Portugal-bashing feature.

It is funny to quote Disraeli when statistics are of no use to you! Of
course you can't question them in a serious way. When I read your postings,
I think that some of your ideas belong to the time B. Disraeli lived. For
instance, I can see, reading the post below, that you have a serious problem
with the colour of your skin. I presume you are very brown and you don't
like it, and you have an inferiority complex. Above all, you can't figure
out how people of your colour can live in countries like Portugal, where the
majority is white. But I cannot explain properly to you how easy it is to
live in this country as a brown or even a black. For me it's a non-issue,
and also for the majority of my countryman. Only if you come here and see
for yourself you may rid your mind of the cobwebs that fill it. Meanwhile
you may continue with your sarcasms about skin colour - you only cover
yourself with ridicule.

I know you are very upset at having some people standing up at some
utterances on Goanet, and actually setting the record straight. I believe
it's a free forum, that's the marvel of internet. Why can't you
democratically accept other people?s views? It would appear that you
inherited Salazar's traits. You want to shut me out of Goanet, but I have no
intention of following your suggestion. I shall send postings to Goanet
whenever I feel like, or better still, whenever people like you give me a
good reason to. as for the euros, bad luck, no euros left for you. Your
elected Government makes sure no Portuguese euros reach Goa. They are going
to East Timor instead, lots of them. The East Timorese welcome them, and do
their thanking in Portuguese.

Rui Colla?o

Lisbon

From: Miguel <miguel12 at sancharnet.in>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:19:12 +0530
I know that "Gilbert" on the net is Dr.Gilbert Lawrence. Is the "Rui
*Miranda* Collaco" on Goanet at goanet.org the same as the "Rui *Manuel*
Collaco" on Goanet2003 at yahoogroups.com who asks Gilbert, "why don't people
identify themselves on Goanet?"
The Portuguese tradition of giving the hapless infant a 'litany' instead of
a 'name' leaves customs officials in most countries breathless while
confirming the identity of the traveller[ I am one victim of this
tradition].Is Rui getting confused about the three names he chose to
use--or
are there two of a kind from Lisbon on the net?
"There are three kinds of lies: lies,damned lies and statistics"
Nothing different in India or Portugal.Even in UK ,they recently 'sexed up'
data on Iraq!All is fair in love and war.So what if Dr.Kelly died
'mysteriously' for stating the truth?
We are better off in Goa now than in 1961.In Portugal people may be still
better off than us.Let them rejoice in their progress as we do in ours.
Goans do not preach to the Portuguese[white skinned or otherwise] how to
keep up with the Brits.We do not want to be preached at either.If they feel
we are not as well off as they are, let them send us Euros instead of
futile
postings on goanet. Let the Portuguese conduct their debate on their own
net
groups[start a new one if there isn't one to accommodate all the 'Goa
experts' in that country].Goanet is not for Portuguese hegemony. Those days
are long past, placed in the non-biodegradable garbage dump of history!
Rui
will understand this;it is beyond the level of a bigot like Bernado.
VIVA GOA ! JAI HIND!!
Miguel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators

Post by Rui Collaco
Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.

But I am no expert in English, it's an alien language

Post by Rui Collaco
to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.
* Rui Miranda Colla?o*
Lisbon

If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960and again in 2000, and saw the all
round improvement of all socialparameters, I can assure you that we would
not be having this debatein the first place.
regards,
Gilbert--and thats my name.

Post by Rui Collaco

Post by Rui Collaco
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on

Goanet. That's my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators

given
by

Post by Rui Collaco

"Gilbert" (*why don't people identify themselves on Goanet?*), seemed

very good to

Post by Rui Collaco

me, for a third world region

Post by Rui Collaco
One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now

5.The

Post by Rui Collaco

Post by Rui Collaco
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development

Report-2003.

Post by Rui Collaco

* Rui Manuel Colla?o*

Post by Rui Collaco
Lisbon

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[Colaco-Dias, Paulo]

Post by Colaco-Dias, Paulo
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim de Mello [mailto:timdemello2 at hotmail.com]
Sent: quarta-feira, 3 de Setembro de 2003 21:12
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Just so you know - I fully support what you say. Just because we, "the
silent majority" do not actively contribute to this debate, does not

mean >we

Post by Colaco-Dias, Paulo
do not have a point of view.
We just do not have the same stamina as the Xacs and Ruis of this

world.

Post by Colaco-Dias, Paulo
I just wish they could do something more productive with all that

energy!

Post by Colaco-Dias, Paulo
Tim de Mello
CANADA

Tim, I am afraid keeping silent and agreeing with Miguel is not enough.
According to Miguel's last post, he wants you and everybody else to go
back to Goa, surrender your foreign passports and fight for the future
of Goa like a true Goan. So I guess you must still be in agreement and I
guess you will be soon leaving Toronto to join Miguel in the Goa's
downgrading process of true JAI HIND!

[EdgarStmartins]

And what kind of liberation is this when an alien government takes
over a territory by force, imposes their law and does not even care for
the population's opinion? (ever!). Very good democracy indeed. And of
course, almost the same happened in all the other princely states just
after 1947. But at least in those states, the respective maharaja's were
"democratically" forced (or shall I say persuaded) to sign the
instruments of accession and merger (with perhaps the exception of
Kashmir who never signed the instrument of merger). In Goa, we were not
even given the choice (before or after 1961). It would have been nice to
have been given the choice after 1961. I would have expected at least
that from the so called largest democracy of the world.
And please, do not try to convince me we were all Indians in Goa anyway
and that India existed as a country for a million years so Goa should
have been also given back to India. We were all Indians just like the
Pakistanis were all Indians! So, why don't we call them Indians too? As
for the country we now call the Republic of India, it is nothing else
but a post-British period invention with 56 years now. And Goa, was
never before a part of it!
=20
Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself. I cannot remember
anyone asking you to represent all of us Goans in this forum. You
certainly do not represent me. I respect your opinion but we are all
different individuals and certainly have different ideas. Like Rui, I am
here to discuss my opinions, not to advice anyone.

BTW, will I ever have the pleasure of knowing your surname? Is it
Braganca? Or are you too ashamed of your Portuguese surname to mention
it?
=20
No cheers today!

Paulo Colaco Dias
===========================================================

I must add to the above the case of the Nizam of Hyderabad who chose to
seccede from the Indian Union or to remain independant. He was served an
ultimatum and invaded by the Indian Army. Valhabhai Patel was behind this move and
Nehru encouraged the take over. Today, Hyderabad is divided and the Nizam is a
nontity.

India's politics have been duplicitious. Nehru spoke and endorsed
panchasilla, one of whose tenets were to respect Goa's teritorial integrity. Nehru
was two faced. The incident that led to India invading Goa was created by
India. India does not permit people from other states to buy land in Kashmir and
in disputed Assamese areas but in Goa, its free for all. Goans are being duped
and defrauded of their land and they deserve this. Like Bandra and Santa Cruz
in Mumbai, Goans will be outsiders in Goa. Mark my word.

As per the above, Miguel distorts the postings by others to justify
falsehoods.
It is a pity that he only has one PHd and not more.

Edgar Martins

[Bernado Colaco]

Just goes to show the two faces of bharatis. They will
change sides and faces as it suits them. The clear
example of Timoja who helped the Portuguese defeat
Adil. Bharat will be colonized in one form or other.
The MNC's are now coming in a big way!



--- C Fernandes <goa at btinternet.com> wrote: > Passport
is ONLY a travel document.

People with more than one passport have a choice to
use an appropriate
passport depending upon where they travel and the
purpose of their travel.
IMHO, most people do not carry their passport to
show their patriotism.
When Kuwait was invaded, British Asians burnt their
British passport and
acquired Indian passport (probably by speaking
Indian language) just to get
out of Kuwait / Iraq / Jordan etc.

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk

[Tim de Mello]

From: EdgarStmartins at aol.com
Nationality and Goanness are not subject to definitions and using a
dictionary by Pundits is a waste of time. . . . .

==========

I agree that it is futile to debate who is or is not a Goan.
However, I think that nationality can be defined in terms of formal
citizenship.
I am a legal citizen of the U.K. and of Canada . . . and will also soon be
applying for citizenship of India.

So, I will have the nationality of three countries (eat your heart out, xac.
I am a Indian and proud of it.) but my allegiance will be to the country I
choose to reside in. Today, it is Canada. Very soon, it may, very probably,
be India.

I am a Goan and proud to be one. Does it matter if I fit the definition of
who is a Goan (as defined on GoaNet) or if the rest of the Goans (in Goa and
elsewhere) accept me (or not) as such? Or if they "like me" less or more?

Of course, it does not!


Tim de Mello
timdemello2 at hotmail.com
CANADA
===============

From: Bernado Colaco <ole_xac at yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: RE: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 04:17:05 +0100 (BST)
Just goes to show the two faces of bharatis. They will
change sides and faces as it suits them. The clear
example of Timoja who helped the Portuguese defeat
Adil. Bharat will be colonized in one form or other.
The MNC's are now coming in a big way!
--- C Fernandes <goa at btinternet.com> wrote: > Passport
is ONLY a travel document.

People with more than one passport have a choice to
use an appropriate
passport depending upon where they travel and the
purpose of their travel.
IMHO, most people do not carry their passport to
show their patriotism.
When Kuwait was invaded, British Asians burnt their
British passport and
acquired Indian passport (probably by speaking
Indian language) just to get
out of Kuwait / Iraq / Jordan etc.

_________________________________________________________________
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[C Fernandes]

The process of moving out from warring countries is NOT only followed by so
called "bharatis" but as I mentioned by most British Asians. It appears that
it is a human tendency to break whatever barrier put by other humans when it
comes to survival.

BTW, all Asians are NOT so called "bharatis".

Let us not forget that there are thousand of Portuguese people from Portugal
living in UK, having dual nationality (having British as well as Portuguese
passports) and whenever they go on overseas holidays they use their passport
which ever that suits to the holidaying country.

Until recently, Portuguese citizen visiting US needed visa but not British.
However, US visa requirements have it now changed.

Cip

-----Original Message-----
Bernado Colaco, Sent: 07 September 2003 04:17

Just goes to show the two faces of bharatis. They will change sides and
faces as it suits them. The clear example of Timoja who helped the
Portuguese defeat Adil. Bharat will be colonized in one form or other. The
MNC's are now coming in a big way!

--- C Fernandes <goa at btinternet.com> wrote: > Passport
is ONLY a travel document.

People with more than one passport have a choice to
use an appropriate
passport depending upon where they travel and the
purpose of their travel.
IMHO, most people do not carry their passport to
show their patriotism.
When Kuwait was invaded, British Asians burnt their
British passport and
acquired Indian passport (probably by speaking
Indian language) just to get
out of Kuwait / Iraq / Jordan etc.

[gilbert]

In spite of your sarcasm, and allusions to misinformation, I am not
in the business of manufacturing stats. They were taken from an
article by Dr. VA Pai Panandikar in Goa Today, Aug 2003. He was the
former President of the Centre of Policy Research, New Delhi. You
may like to read the article and get a little more educated about
Goa.
BTW, since you are jumping with joy that Portugal has now overtaken
the UK in reducing infant mortality by one less baby dead, why dont
you provide all the other HDR figures which place the UK way ahead of
Portugal in the same report.
The aim of the debate was not to compare countrys indicators, but to
rebut your wild and insubstantiated allegation that *neocolonists*
had ruined Goa since 1961. If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960
and again in 2000, and saw the all round improvement of all social
parameters, I can assure you that we would not be having this debate
in the first place.
regards, Gilbert--and thats my name.

Post by Rui Collaco
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on

Goanet. That's

Post by Rui Collaco
my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given by

"Gilbert" (why

Post by Rui Collaco
don't people identify themselves on Goanet?), seemed very good to

me, for a

Post by Rui Collaco
third world region. Some of them may even be true. However, if you

check the

Post by Rui Collaco
Union Budget 2003-2004, Economic Survey 2002-2003/Statistical

Table/Human

Post by Rui Collaco
Development Indicators/9.5 State-wise infant mortality rate
Infant mortality rate
1961 2001
India 115 71
Goa 57 36
This means that according to this most credible of Indian sources

of

Post by Rui Collaco
information, in 1961 the infant mortality rate in Goa was 57 (per

1000 live

Post by Rui Collaco
births), half the rate for India, and in 2001 (forty years later)

it was 36,

Post by Rui Collaco
still half the rate of India as a whole, but not even half the rate

of 40

Post by Rui Collaco
years before. What an achievement to boast about!
Gilbert was claiming that the rate for Goa was 70 in 1961, and is

now 11! He

Post by Rui Collaco
should check on his sources, unless he invented those rates. There

are no

Post by Rui Collaco
miracles these days, and I haven't heard about the Sultan of Brunei

buying

Post by Rui Collaco
up Goa, so there's no way the infant mortality rate could come down

from 36

Post by Rui Collaco
to 11 per thousand in two years!!! Or are we to conclude that

Indian

Post by Rui Collaco
statistics are a free-for-all?
This is what I call misinformation, whether deliberate or by

negligence.

Post by Rui Collaco
One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5.

The

Post by Rui Collaco
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development Report-

2003.

Post by Rui Collaco
Rui Manuel Colla?o
Lisbon

[Rui Collaco]

Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.

Which carries more weight for you as a source of information: an article on
"Goa Today" or the Economic Survey attached to the Union Budget, which is an
official Government document? For me the choice is obvious, which means that
Goa's infant mortality rate in 2001 was 36 per thousand.

I am not jumping with joy, not for so little. I only mentioned Portugal's
figures as an example of how in 31 years that rate came down from 53 to 5
(less than one tenth), whereas in Goa, the rate was reduced, in 40 years,
from 57 to 36, not even half the rate of 1961. And you were boasting about
this. You could perhaps come up with some other indicators but this one
should not make you proud. Even the former Pol Pot regime could manage that
or better in 40 years! You and other people on Goanet seem to think that the
rest of the world stopped in its tracks while Goa "marched ahead" after
1961. The "all round improvement in social parameters" applies to the entire
world, it's not Goa's exclusive achievement.

I can sense your irritation whenever Portugal is mentioned on this net, but
I find it very useful, for the benefit of those who take interest in these
matters, to supply some statistical data, to counter inaccuracies which are
taken for facts, if left unchecked.

What I said about the neocolonialists from New Delhi was not a "wild
allegation". It was said in response to a reply by Teotonio de Souza to a
posting of mine, in which he considered that Portugal's granting of
citizenship to Goans was a compensation for its "use and abuse of colonial
territory and people for 450 years". I did not say that the neocolonialists
had ruined Goa since 1961. That's what you claim that I said, which makes me
think that you have a reading and comprehension problem, because you keep
distorting the contents of my postings. By the way, why do you keep writing
"neocolonists"? Is that Indian English or you coined a new word? I'll stick
to "neocolonialists". But I am no expert in English, it's an alien language
to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.

Rui Miranda Colla?o

Lisbon

From: "gilbert" <gilmen30 at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 11:20:38 -0000
In spite of your sarcasm, and allusions to misinformation, I am not
in the business of manufacturing stats. They were taken from an
article by Dr. VA Pai Panandikar in Goa Today, Aug 2003. He was the
former President of the Centre of Policy Research, New Delhi. You
may like to read the article and get a little more educated about
Goa.
BTW, since you are jumping with joy that Portugal has now overtaken
the UK in reducing infant mortality by one less baby dead, why dont
you provide all the other HDR figures which place the UK way ahead of
Portugal in the same report.
The aim of the debate was not to compare countrys indicators, but to
rebut your wild and insubstantiated allegation that *neocolonists*
had ruined Goa since 1961. If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960
and again in 2000, and saw the all round improvement of all social
parameters, I can assure you that we would not be having this debate
in the first place.
regards, Gilbert--and thats my name.

Post by Rui Collaco
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on

Goanet. That's

Post by Rui Collaco
my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators given by

"Gilbert" (why

Post by Rui Collaco
don't people identify themselves on Goanet?), seemed very good to

me, for a

Post by Rui Collaco
third world region. Some of them may even be true. However, if you

check the

Post by Rui Collaco
Union Budget 2003-2004, Economic Survey 2002-2003/Statistical

Table/Human

Post by Rui Collaco
Development Indicators/9.5 State-wise infant mortality rate
Infant mortality rate
1961 2001
India 115 71
Goa 57 36
This means that according to this most credible of Indian sources

of

Post by Rui Collaco
information, in 1961 the infant mortality rate in Goa was 57 (per

1000 live

Post by Rui Collaco
births), half the rate for India, and in 2001 (forty years later)

it was 36,

Post by Rui Collaco
still half the rate of India as a whole, but not even half the rate

of 40

Post by Rui Collaco
years before. What an achievement to boast about!
Gilbert was claiming that the rate for Goa was 70 in 1961, and is

now 11! He

Post by Rui Collaco
should check on his sources, unless he invented those rates. There

are no

Post by Rui Collaco
miracles these days, and I haven't heard about the Sultan of Brunei

buying

Post by Rui Collaco
up Goa, so there's no way the infant mortality rate could come down

from 36

Post by Rui Collaco
to 11 per thousand in two years!!! Or are we to conclude that

Indian

Post by Rui Collaco
statistics are a free-for-all?
This is what I call misinformation, whether deliberate or by

negligence.

Post by Rui Collaco
One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now 5.

The

Post by Rui Collaco
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development Report-

2003.

Post by Rui Collaco
Rui Manuel Colla?o
Lisbon

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[Santosh Helekar]

In a message dated 9/2/03 12:23:29 AM Central Daylight Time,

Post by Rui Collaco
Which carries more weight for you as a source of information: an
article on "Goa Today" or the Economic Survey attached to the Union
Budget, which is an official Government document? For me the choice
is obvious, which means that Goa's infant mortality rate in 2001 was
36 per thousand.

As I had written in a post that did not appear on Goanet for some
reason, there is a problem with the above figure. The official figure
for the infant mortality rate has fluctuated from 4 per 1000 to 27
per 1000 over the past decade or so. The Registrar General in charge
of the Sample Registration System (SRS) of the Census of India
publishes a bulletin each year. According to this SRS bulletin the
rate was 4 per 1000 live births in 1994. It was 23 per 1000 in 2002.
In 1999-2000, it was 13.12, according to Dr. Jose de Sa of the Goa
State Family Welfare Bureau. In other years, these rates have varied
around 17 per 1000. It may well be 11 per 1000 in 2003.

Cheers,

Santosh

[gilbert]

Post by Rui Collaco
Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.

By the way, why do you keep writing

Post by Rui Collaco
"neocolonists"? Is that Indian English or you coined a new word?

I'll stick

Post by Rui Collaco
to "neocolonialists". But I am no expert in English, it's an alien

language

Post by Rui Collaco
to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.
Rui Miranda Colla?o
Lisbon

-------------------------------
The word intended was *neocolonialist* Thanks for the correction, but
do I trace a faint hint of sarcasm in your comment?!!
regards, Gilbert.

[Colaco-Dias, Paulo]

Gosh,

I have never ever encountered so much redundancy in a single post.

The net value of your post was nil! But then that is what happens when
one runs out of valid arguments. The only way out is to attack and
resource to remarks with no possible factual validation. For example,
your statement that I am a friend of Bernado. How did you conclude that?
The first time I established direct contact with Bernado was yesterday
when I asked him from where he was. Before that, I only heard from his
posts that are daring but, nonetheless, present valid arguments many
times.

How did you conclude that I live in Portugal? Most people on Goanet know
that I live in London and have lived in London since 1995. But you not
only took it for granted but also issued a statement that I live in
Portugal.

The problem with you is that you issue false statements in your posts
without checking the validity. Most contributors start by saying "I
believe", or "In my opinion", "According to the data published...", etc.
But you actually issue statements as though they are valid just because
you said them and you even go to the point to justify that you have read
that in "many newspapers" or in the media in Goa! I honestly think you
should revise what you want to say and look for the validity of those
statements before posting them.

Despite what you might think, your name Miguel is not rare. There are
hundreds (if not thousands) of Migueis in Goa. Hence my humble request
to know your surname. I think it is not too much to ask, is it?

I also believe you have been in this forum for the past year or so,
hence I had never heard of you. For your information, I have been an
on-and-off member of GoaNet since 1994. Even though everybody knows me
very well, I have always identified myself to the full. If I have signed
as Paulo only, my e-mail id contains Paulo Colaco-Dias while yours
contains only Miguel or Miguel12 - not very revealing, is it?

Also, I can't see how by getting my DNA testing is going to reveal if I
am an Indian or anything else. Did you find that in your hard(ly)
factual-based research that Indians have different genes that can help
to distinguish themselves from the other human beings?

Where did I mention in my post "Portuguese descent"??? I do not have any
claims of that sort. You are again speculating and again issuing false
statements. Your posts are just as bad as they can get in terms of false
statements. Are you one of those who discriminate against "mesticos",
"descendentes" or "mulatos"??? Even though I am not one of them, I find
that most unfortunate in many of us Goans.

My request to you: "Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for
yourself", was in response to your statement that "we Goans do not need
Rui's advice".
Firstly, Rui was not giving any advices. He was merely responding to
other contributor's opinions/discussions.
I know Rui extremely well and that gives me the right to defend and
support him and his views which I second 100%. You would do the same for
your best mate. But you do not know me and I would never allow you to
include myself in your definition of "we". Is that crystal clear now or
shall I draw it for you so that you can understand?

The last part of your post is so rude that I am not even going to bother
replying. It speaks a lot for the person you are. Could not find any
indications of "Arcanjo". But, thanks for letting me know. I will keep
that in mind just before pressing the delete button next time.

Paulo Colaco Dias.



-----Original Message-----
From: Miguel [mailto:miguel12 at sancharnet.in]
Sent: 03 September 2003 04:44
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators

Dear Paulo Colaco-Dias,
There is just one Miguel posting on Goanet,so I do not see the need to
write
my surname every time. I am definitely not ashamed of my name.I am proud
to
be a Braganca[I write it as Braganza,for I hate to be called Braganka
for
want of a proper type face or key]Both my parents are Braganca. I am
Miguel
Arcanjo Braganca,joneiro/gaunkar of Communidade Agricole de Mapusa and a
parishioner of St.Jerome's Church famous for its Milagres feast(Festa da
Nossa Senhora das Milagres).My residential address and phone number can
be
given to you on request. Your friend Bernado Colaco does not have the
courage to do likewise.
Aquino Braganca is not my first cousin:he is one generation older to me.
I
only stated that he was born in Goa to differentiate from Rui Colaco,who
was
born in Mocambique.He and my uncle Luis were in Mocambique.They made
different choices and both were different from the one that Rui
made.That
was the purpose of the statement. Nothing else. We have lots of
achievers in
my family.I was not boasting about Aquino and Luis;just stating an
example.
I think you can understand that. If you cannot,I am wasting my time.

Granted that most our parents[and many of us on the goanet who were born
upto 18 December,1961] were Portuguese nationals by virtue of being born
in
the Estado da India.Unless you have European blood in you,I do not see
the
Portuguese descent. I am 100% Goan[not mulatto,descendent or mestizo or
,for
that matter ,siddhi/abyssinian]and that makes me an Indian. You may be
confused about that.I am not. Get your DNA tested.

Pakistani,Nepali and Bangladeshi peoples belong to the Indian
sub-continent.They just have different nationalities. The Bangladeshi
people
are Bengali.Till December,1971,they were called East Pakistani and
before
1947 they were Indians.One does not change one's genes with one's
nationality,citizenship or passport. Those who think they do,delude
themselves.

I have accepted the differentiation that Rui made between 'running a
casino'
and living off its profits. Since you are harping on it,I would like to
add
that a pimp who lives on the earnings of a prostitute does not become
more
respectable than the prostitute.At least the prostitute works for her
living---even though it is mostly on her back. Does that clear your
doubt.
After 1999,one prostitute's earnings were no longer available to those
who
would like to venerate the veneral.Viva Macau!

To me Rui is an intelligent,balanced person.You do him dis-service by
picking up his cause. He is capable of handling it in a more gentlemanly
manner."Lastly, Miguel, in future, please talk for yourself" . I do not
recall Rui authorizing you to post on his behalf. Practice what you
preach.

I speak and write for myself. If you want to advise Goans in Goa[I am
one of
them],come down here,surrender your passport ,nationality and
citizenship of
Portugal and talk.If you do not have that courage,hold your peace.
Sitting
in Portugal you can talk of corruption in India.You will sing a
different
tune if you are sentenced to a jail term for libel/defamation in India.
Have
courage to face the consequences,or continue as differently coloured
citizen
of an adopted land.

If you have a problem with other national of your adopted country,that
is
your problem.Solve it in Portugal,in Portuguese or any other language of
your choice. Why are you wasting time and space on Goanet?

If you lack cheer in Portugal,drink Porto,Tinto or Azeite de Antonio*
Oliviera* Salazar!

Or join Mocidade Portuguesa.

Cheers! Viva Goa!!

Miguel Arcanjo de Braganca

[Bernado Colaco]

Hi Miguel,

Some more info on Portugal's social indicators: The
latest figures on life expectancy has now gone up to
79,5%. The death rate at child birth and upto 5 years
has been reduced by 22,6% since 1961.

Kind regards

Bernado Cola?o

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
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[Tim de Mello]

From: Miguel <miguel12 at sancharnet.in>
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:19:12 +0530
We are better off in Goa now than in 1961.In Portugal people may be still
better off than us.Let them rejoice in their progress as we do in ours.
Goans do not preach to the Portuguese[white skinned or otherwise] how to
keep up with the Brits.We do not want to be preached at either.If they feel
we are not as well off as they are, let them send us Euros instead of
futile
postings on goanet. Let the Portuguese conduct their debate on their own
net
groups[start a new one if there isn't one to accommodate all the 'Goa
experts' in that country].Goanet is not for Portuguese hegemony. Those days
are long past, placed in the non-biodegradable garbage dump of history!
Rui
will understand this;it is beyond the level of a bigot like Bernado.
VIVA GOA ! JAI HIND!!
Miguel

--------------

Miguel:

Just so you know - I fully support what you say. Just because we, "the
silent majority" do not actively contribute to this debate, does not mean we
do not have a point of view.

We just do not have the same stamina as the Xacs and Ruis of this world.

I just wish they could do something more productive with all that energy!


Tim de Mello
CANADA

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
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[Rui Collaco]

You are an expert at inventing futile issues, but this time I shall clarify
your ackward perplexity. My name is Rui Manuel Miranda Colla?o, and
obviously you were in no doubt about it. I enjoy confusing some susceptible
minds.

Long names are not a Portuguese tradition, they are a Goan one. Most
Portuguese people I know have short names. Of course some surnames can be
long, but you can't change them. Please find better issues for your daily
Portugal-bashing feature.

It is funny to quote Disraeli when statistics are of no use to you! Of
course you can't question them in a serious way. When I read your postings,
I think that some of your ideas belong to the time B. Disraeli lived. For
instance, I can see, reading the post below, that you have a serious problem
with the colour of your skin. I presume you are very brown and you don't
like it, and you have an inferiority complex. Above all, you can't figure
out how people of your colour can live in countries like Portugal, where the
majority is white. But I cannot explain properly to you how easy it is to
live in this country as a brown or even a black. For me it's a non-issue,
and also for the majority of my countryman. Only if you come here and see
for yourself you may rid your mind of the cobwebs that fill it. Meanwhile
you may continue with your sarcasms about skin colour - you only cover
yourself with ridicule.

I know you are very upset at having some people standing up at some
utterances on Goanet, and actually setting the record straight. I believe
it's a free forum, that's the marvel of internet. Why can't you
democratically accept other people?s views? It would appear that you
inherited Salazar's traits. You want to shut me out of Goanet, but I have no
intention of following your suggestion. I shall send postings to Goanet
whenever I feel like, or better still, whenever people like you give me a
good reason to. as for the euros, bad luck, no euros left for you. Your
elected Government makes sure no Portuguese euros reach Goa. They are going
to East Timor instead, lots of them. The East Timorese welcome them, and do
their thanking in Portuguese.

Rui Colla?o

Lisbon

From: Miguel <miguel12 at sancharnet.in>
Reply-To: goanet at goanet.org
To: goanet at goanet.org
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:19:12 +0530
I know that "Gilbert" on the net is Dr.Gilbert Lawrence. Is the "Rui
*Miranda* Collaco" on Goanet at goanet.org the same as the "Rui *Manuel*
Collaco" on Goanet2003 at yahoogroups.com who asks Gilbert, "why don't people
identify themselves on Goanet?"
The Portuguese tradition of giving the hapless infant a 'litany' instead of
a 'name' leaves customs officials in most countries breathless while
confirming the identity of the traveller[ I am one victim of this
tradition].Is Rui getting confused about the three names he chose to
use--or
are there two of a kind from Lisbon on the net?
"There are three kinds of lies: lies,damned lies and statistics"
Nothing different in India or Portugal.Even in UK ,they recently 'sexed up'
data on Iraq!All is fair in love and war.So what if Dr.Kelly died
'mysteriously' for stating the truth?
We are better off in Goa now than in 1961.In Portugal people may be still
better off than us.Let them rejoice in their progress as we do in ours.
Goans do not preach to the Portuguese[white skinned or otherwise] how to
keep up with the Brits.We do not want to be preached at either.If they feel
we are not as well off as they are, let them send us Euros instead of
futile
postings on goanet. Let the Portuguese conduct their debate on their own
net
groups[start a new one if there isn't one to accommodate all the 'Goa
experts' in that country].Goanet is not for Portuguese hegemony. Those days
are long past, placed in the non-biodegradable garbage dump of history!
Rui
will understand this;it is beyond the level of a bigot like Bernado.
VIVA GOA ! JAI HIND!!
Miguel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rui Collaco" <ruicollaco at hotmail.com>
To: <goanet at goanet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Goanet]Goa's social indicators

Post by Rui Collaco
Can anyone see sarcasm in my text? I fail to see where.

But I am no expert in English, it's an alien language

Post by Rui Collaco
to me which I rarely speak, my mother tongue is Portuguese.
* Rui Miranda Colla?o*
Lisbon

If you stood on the soil of Goa in 1960and again in 2000, and saw the all
round improvement of all socialparameters, I can assure you that we would
not be having this debatein the first place.
regards,
Gilbert--and thats my name.

Post by Rui Collaco

Post by Rui Collaco
Inaccuracies or deliberate misinformation should not pass on

Goanet. That's my "agenda". The figures on Goa's social indicators

given
by

Post by Rui Collaco

"Gilbert" (*why don't people identify themselves on Goanet?*), seemed

very good to

Post by Rui Collaco

me, for a third world region

Post by Rui Collaco
One last bit of info: Portugal's rate was 53 in 1970, and is now

5.The

Post by Rui Collaco

Post by Rui Collaco
U.K.'s is 6. That's in the United Nations Human Development

Report-2003.

Post by Rui Collaco

* Rui Manuel Colla?o*

Post by Rui Collaco
Lisbon

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