Post by Trevor WilsonPost by Art SackmanOne does not follow the other
**Sure it does. If you were truly uncomfortable seeing the rampant
slaughter of Americans, you would vote to remove the corrupt arseholes
who continue to support easy access of firearms to violent people.
I want to remove the corrupt assholes who are soft on criminals.
Post by Trevor WilsonPost by Art SackmanI am not comfortable.
I see better mitigating alternatives, as I recently discussed
**No, you do not. You dispense with the systems in place in Australia,
the UK and many other places. All of which work.
They may or may not work there.
America is a different environment
For one thing we have 340 million guns on the streets
Post by Trevor WilsonPost by Art SackmanPost by Trevor WilsonPost by Art SackmanPost by Trevor WilsonDo you think it is time to re-assess the utility of the 2nd?
No Its not gonna happen, not going to get 75% of the states to agree
**Answer the question. Yes or no.
NO
**Why? Why do you think that a document created in the 18th century has
any relevance to the 21st?
The Ten Commandments still work, tha'ts 7,000 plus years old
The Constitution still works. its a magnificent document.
I don't want to throw it out
Its open to Amendments, but ha's a tough road
Post by Trevor WilsonPost by Art SackmanPost by Trevor WilsonPost by Art SackmanPost by Trevor WilsonDo you think it is time to stop voting for politicians who are in the
thrall of the NRA?
I don't pay attention to the NRA
**YOU may not, but the corrupt, gutless politicians that you vote for, do.
and they pay attention to all sorts of lobbyists that I may or may not agree with, NAM, TRucking groups, military contractors,
Right to Life, Liberty advocates etc.
**And it is the NRA that is indirectly responsible for the murder of
10,000 Americans every year.
They are not responsible, even indirectly
The criminals are responsible, not the guns
the 10,000 guns each year are not pulling their own triggers.
Post by Trevor WilsonPost by Art SackmanAnd Dems listen to all sorts of lobbyists I may or may not agree with, GND lobbyists, military contractors, AFT, AFLCIO, race hustlers, LGTBQ advocates, etc,
**You have to decide if the wanton murder of 10,000 Americans each year
is worth it. If you do, then you need to own that decision. You need to
stand up and admit that you are quite happy seeing 10,000 of your fellow
countrymen shot to death each and every year.
I'm not happy with it. But what you advocate is not a solution
It fails to address both the perps and the 340 million guns now on the streets
Post by Trevor WilsonLet's not forget the cost to the taxpayer either. 1.7 TRILLION DOLLARS
over the past decade. That comes from your pocket.
---> I never said that.
**It is the ONLY argument you have put forward so far.
Post by Art SackmanBut obviously it is an issue.
**Sure it is. Gun huggers here in Australia were highly critical of the
money issue too. However, over here, Australians were fully on-board
with the 1996 gun control laws to the tune of around 90% approval rate.
The gun huggers were so seriously out-numbered by sane people, they just
gave up.
In any case, I proved, conclusively, that a gun buyback would cost
America far less than the failed system presently in place.
and won't buy back the actual guns used in most murders,
They are in the hands of criminals and they will hold onto them
Buy backs here are a complete waste of money
it makes even less sense than funding a California high speed rail line from
nowhere to nowhere.
Post by Trevor WilsonPost by Art SackmanThe cost of every govt program is an issue to be considered
**As is the cost of every death and injury caused by gunshot.
But your plan will not appreciable reduce that number
hint hint hint
concentrate on the criminals
Post by Trevor WilsonPost by Art SackmanPost by Trevor WilsonThat is a pretty shallow and cynical view.
except that you totally misrepresented it.
You actually lied about it
**Nope. You vote for the same politicians, who are paid off or supported
by the NRA, which is paid by the firearms manufacturers. You dance in
the blood of your fellow Americans.
First of all that is a complete lie
Second, I am not a one issue voter
Post by Trevor Wilson**That is disgusting. There is no excuse you can present. You finally
resorted to the lowest - that of cost. You tried and failed to present
the case that dealing with firearms would be too expensive.
Un-fucking-believable.
Cost IS an issue, even if it would work,
but it won't
An expensive non solution
Money better spent if we would build more prisons and lock
up more career criminal sand violent offenders for longer
periods of time
Post by Trevor WilsonPost by Art SackmanPost by Trevor WilsonThat is to be expected from an arsehole like you. You and Scottie are
disgusting humans. You break down a human life into Dollars and cents.
never ever sad that.
**Sure you did. And you failed.
I'll ask you what a life is worth in terms of govt spending
and I'll also ask you how such an increase in spending
will negatively affect the lives of our citizens
its not an absolute
everything has a cost benefit ratio
every good deed also has negative repercussions elsewhere.
One issue does not live in a vacuum. Doing one thing affects
a multitude of other things
you have an extremely simplistic world view
Post by Trevor WilsonPost by Art Sackmani was talking the cost of buying about 170 million guns
And that big buyback will not save very many lives.
**Prove it. Submit your data to prove your claim.
you can't prove that it will.
Logic, common senses and a real world sense of human behavior
tells that bud guys will keep their guns
Post by Trevor WilsonPost by Art SackmanIt will be negligible
because you lump all guns together,
You don't target the groups of guns that that are used most in crimes
That group of guns are the existing guns possessed by criminals
Criminals will not voluntarily sell back the tools of their criminal
trade.
**I never claimed that they would. Criminals, however, STILL buy or
steal their firearms from legal owners. Those loopholes could be dealt
with, IF you would stop voting for corrupt, Republican politicians.
yes, but most criminals don't There are 340 million guns out there and 20 million
sales each year
And you can't identify which 10,000 guns will used in murders.
Post by Trevor WilsonPost by Art SackmanPost by Trevor WilsonStill, if that is the game you want to play, I will descend into the
gutter with you.
https://slate.com/culture/2010/10/does-every-murder-in-the-united-states-really-cost-society-17-million.html
Post by Art SackmanPost by Trevor WilsonOK, so, with 10,000 homicides, committed via gunshot, each and every
$17,000,000.00 X 10,000 = $170,000,000,000.00 EACH AND EVERY YEAR!
$170 BILLION every year.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0209896
Post by Art SackmanPost by Trevor WilsonIn a 2019 study, it was found that firearms related injury costs
amounted to around US$229 BILLION each year.
TSk, Tsk, you didn't apply your usual restrictions
at any rate its an overblown number.
**Then supply your data, which proves your claim.
Post by Art SackmanMost of Those overblown costs item are not attributable to public
spending
Post by Art SackmanYou have piled on multiple layers of irrelevance and speculation on
top of each other
Post by Art Sackmanyour errors are exponential
**Then supply your data, which proves your claim. In your data, be aware
* A gun buyback would involve a once-off cost to the community.
* The US$170 billion cost is a year on year cost. To make it simpler for
you, over 10 years, the cost will mount to US$1.7 TRILLION!
Every year, the cost mounts.
Post by Art SackmanThe gun buyback programs are a direct public expense.
**So are the deaths and injuries associated with gunfire.
And the buybacks won't stop that
Post by Trevor WilsonPost by Art Sackmanand again, the buyback program will yield only a negligible reduction
at best
**Then supply your data, which proves your claim.
You suply the data telling us that US buybacks will reduce gun deaths
How many buybacks and how many deaths averted?
You dont know
you don't know which guns will be used,
you don't know how many guns will be bought back]
you don't know hoe many guns will remain and in who's possession theuywill remain
Post by Trevor WilsonPost by Art Sackmanthe owners willingly selling back their guns are not the problem people.
Criminals not participating in the buy back are the problem people.
**You STILL don't get it, do you? AT SOME POINT, ALL guns are legal
weapons. Reducing the likelihood that firearms can enter the illegal
stream should be the goal. That goal is constantly and consistently
frustrated by Republican politicians, at the behest of the NRA.
You've got quite a task
eliminating 20 million new gun sales each year, while 340 million
still remain in circulation despite your garganyuam efforts.
Post by Trevor WilsonIdiots like you, who vote Republican are the problem. YOU are
responsible for 10,000 of your fellow Americans who are murdered each
and every year.
Reps lock up bad guys
Dems give early release
Dems depopulate prisons
Dems defund the police
Dems disband police gun enforcement units
Dems weaken up on traffic stops, which are a geat source for getting illegally possesed guns off the streets
Post by Trevor WilsonPost by Art SackmanPost by Trevor WilsonSo, if you want to talk Dollars, let's talk Dollars. By voting
Republican, you can be assured that the horrific cost to the US taxpayer
will continue unabated.
DO you think a buyback might be good value?
Not at all
**Why?
Post by Art SackmanPost by Trevor WilsonDo you think that it is time for a re-examination of US firearms laws?
No
**So, you are comfortable with 10,000 Americans being murdered each and
every year?
Post by Art SackmanPost by Trevor WilsonDo you think it is time to re-assess the utility of the 2nd?
No Its not gonna happen, not going to get 75% of the states to agree
**Answer the question. Yes or no.
Post by Art SackmanPost by Trevor WilsonDo you think it is time to stop voting for politicians who are in the
thrall of the NRA?
I don't pay attention to the NRA
**YOU may not, but the corrupt, gutless politicians that you vote for, do.
---
I'm ending this discussion
I'm not gonna respond to you anymore
We are just endlessly spinning around in the same circle