Pets and TEOTWAWKI

[On-Liner]

In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?

I suspect that many people would just turn the animals loose to fend for
themselves. Would you?
Some would kill them in as a humane manner as possible. Could you?
Some will starve themselves before their pets. Should you?

What about you?

[On-Liner]

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?

Is this realistic?:
http://www.webpal.org/webpal/a_reconstruction/immediate/death/dogs.htm

BTW, while you're there, why not have a look at the rest of Bruce's site.
There's loads of interesting stuff.

[Willcox]

Post by On-Liner
http://www.webpal.org/webpal/a_reconstruction/immediate/death/dogs.htm

I didn't read the whole thing, but it sure is. Domesticated dogs allowed
to bread in the wild will after a generation or two, turn into a vicious
pack which may attack humans. This happened quite a few times in the mid
1900s. It rarely happens anymore because not only animal control, but
farmers/cattlemen are allowed to shoot strays (without collars) on their
property on sight or shoot any dog that threatens livestock.

[Stormin Mormon]

Very true. Wild dogs should never be allowed to eat bread. Especially sliced
white butter top.

My father is an editor, and I've got some of his bad habits.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com

Post by On-Liner
http://www.webpal.org/webpal/a_reconstruction/immediate/death/dogs.htm

I didn't read the whole thing, but it sure is. Domesticated dogs allowed
to bread in the wild will after a generation or two, turn into a vicious
pack which may attack humans. This happened quite a few times in the mid
1900s. It rarely happens anymore because not only animal control, but
farmers/cattlemen are allowed to shoot strays (without collars) on their
property on sight or shoot any dog that threatens livestock.

[lazyike]

Post by Stormin Mormon
Very true. Wild dogs should never be allowed to eat bread. Especially sliced
white butter top.
My father is an editor, and I've got some of his bad habits.

LOL...

Where did he get that one?

Ike

[e***@netpath.net]

In the worst case scenario where the fan is well >covered with manure

and foodstocks are almost >non-existent, what will you do with your
pets?

It may well depend on what kind of "pets" you have. Gerbils may be
useless burdens - but a German Shepherd is the best area protection you
can have, and a cat really can minimize rodent problems that would
otherwise be competing with you for food.
There will always be food for dogs and cats - if there is for you.
The stuff you won't cook from that squirrel will surely be eaten by any
cat or dog.

See all our stuff at <a
href="http://stores.ebay.com/INTERNET-GUN-SHOW">Internet Gun Show!</a>

[lazyike]

Post by e***@netpath.net

In the worst case scenario where the fan is well >covered with manure

and foodstocks are almost >non-existent, what will you do with your
pets?
It may well depend on what kind of "pets" you have. Gerbils may be
useless burdens - but a German Shepherd is the best area protection you
can have, and a cat really can minimize rodent problems that would
otherwise be competing with you for food.

Giving it some thought Gerbils may NOT be all that useless. Breed 'em &
Release one for the cat to hunt as a treat. If times get tough breeding
cat food will be better than purchasing cases & bags of it.

Ike

[Halcitron]

From the CEO

Pets or Food� was founded by a member of Mensa, the high IQ society,
and we're dedicated to bringing consumers healthy, certified organic
animals at wholesale prices. Whether you're getting a pet lizard for
your son or a dozen Doberman flank steaks for a SuperBowl party, you
won't find lower priced animals anywhere else that are better suited
for Pets or Food�.
Sidney Zwibel, CEO Pets or Food

Pet Ready to Eat� or PRE's�
What is a Pet Ready to Eat�? Pets or Food's� patented method of food
preparation that delivers only the best cuts of meat and bountiful
giblets for discriminating connoisseurs.

http://petsorfood.com/

:/

[Lawrence Glickman]

From the CEO

Pets or Food?was founded by a member of Mensa, the high IQ society

Right there, go no further, PROVES beyond all reasonable doubt that
intelligence and IQ have no relationship to one-another.

Lg

and we're dedicated to bringing consumers healthy, certified organic
animals at wholesale prices. Whether you're getting a pet lizard for
your son or a dozen Doberman flank steaks for a SuperBowl party, you
won't find lower priced animals anywhere else that are better suited
for Pets or Food?
Sidney Zwibel, CEO Pets or Food
Pet Ready to Eat?or PRE's?
What is a Pet Ready to Eat? Pets or Food's?patented method of food
preparation that delivers only the best cuts of meat and bountiful
giblets for discriminating connoisseurs.
http://petsorfood.com/
:/

[Tim May]

Post by Lawrence Glickman

From the CEO

Pets or Food?was founded by a member of Mensa, the high IQ society

Right there, go no further, PROVES beyond all reasonable doubt that
intelligence and IQ have no relationship to one-another.

Do you know that the word "gullible" is not found in any dictionary?

As the proud owner of a "Bonsai Kitten," a kitten grownn inside a glass
bottle, I can assure you that are very low-maintenance pets.

--Tim May

[Lawrence Glickman]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:11:57 -0800, Tim May

Post by Tim May

Post by Lawrence Glickman

From the CEO

Pets or Food?was founded by a member of Mensa, the high IQ society

Right there, go no further, PROVES beyond all reasonable doubt that
intelligence and IQ have no relationship to one-another.

Do you know that the word "gullible" is not found in any dictionary?

hold on while I look to see

Post by Tim May
As the proud owner of a "Bonsai Kitten," a kitten grownn inside a glass
bottle, I can assure you that are very low-maintenance pets.
--Tim May

we can all speculate on what *media* you were grown in. Petri dish?

[Lawrence Glickman]

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:23:06 -0000, "On-Liner"

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?

Shoot my neighbors, field dress them in the garage, feed to pets.

Post by On-Liner
I suspect that many people would just turn the animals loose to fend for
themselves. Would you?

over my dead body

Post by On-Liner
Some would kill them in as a humane manner as possible. Could you?

have done so too many times

Post by On-Liner
Some will starve themselves before their pets. Should you?

no. I _share_.

Post by On-Liner
What about you?

What about me

[The Independent of Clackamas County]

Post by Lawrence Glickman
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:23:06 -0000, "On-Liner"

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?

Shoot my neighbors, field dress them in the garage, feed to pets.

Post by On-Liner
I suspect that many people would just turn the animals loose to fend for
themselves. Would you?

over my dead body

Post by On-Liner
Some would kill them in as a humane manner as possible. Could you?

have done so too many times

Post by On-Liner
Some will starve themselves before their pets. Should you?

no. I _share_.

Post by On-Liner
What about you?

What about me

It depends on where you are staying. In my situation we keep cats and
they can pretty much take care of them selves by eating bugs, mice,
voles, Moles etc.

The Dog is an important part of a TEOTWAWKI scenario as they can and do
perform the duty of watch dog, and will (if trained) herd sheep, and
other animals. (My labradore Retriever will herd ducks and chickens.)
He has been known to herd them up on to back porch outside the door to
the kitchen. Talk about a mess.
--
The Independent of Clackamas County


"What experience and history teach is this -- That people and
governments never have learned anything from history, or acted
on principles deduced from it"

George Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel
1770-1831

[Lawrence Glickman]

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 11:46:46 -0800, The Independent of Clackamas

Post by The Independent of Clackamas County
It depends on where you are staying. In my situation we keep cats and
they can pretty much take care of them selves by eating bugs, mice,
voles, Moles etc.

Cats have to be _trained_ to hunt. The average family-raised house
cat hasn't a clue and will suffer a miserable death if abandoned.

Post by The Independent of Clackamas County
The Dog is an important part of a TEOTWAWKI scenario as they can and do
perform the duty of watch dog, and will (if trained) herd sheep, and
other animals. (My labradore Retriever will herd ducks and chickens.)
He has been known to herd them up on to back porch outside the door to
the kitchen. Talk about a mess.

[Scott Hillard]

Post by Lawrence Glickman
Cats have to be _trained_ to hunt.

And this can be achieved by leaving them with their mothers for the first
8-12 weeks of life.

Post by Lawrence Glickman
The average family-raised house
cat hasn't a clue and will suffer a miserable death if abandoned.

Wrong - cats are incredibly resourceful and quickly adapt "play" behaviour
to survival behaviour.


Our last cat was never "trained" to hunt, but bagged countless rats, mice,
birds, other cats and the odd dog. Possibly one or two small children that
vanished in the local area over his 14 years as well.

Hunger certainly wasn't the driving issue - INSTINCT was.

[Lawrence Glickman]

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:53:17 +1100, "Scott Hillard"

Post by Scott Hillard

Post by Lawrence Glickman
Cats have to be _trained_ to hunt.

And this can be achieved by leaving them with their mothers for the first
8-12 weeks of life.

Post by Lawrence Glickman
The average family-raised house
cat hasn't a clue and will suffer a miserable death if abandoned.

Wrong - cats are incredibly resourceful and quickly adapt "play" behaviour
to survival behaviour.
Our last cat was never "trained" to hunt, but bagged countless rats, mice,
birds, other cats and the odd dog. Possibly one or two small children that
vanished in the local area over his 14 years as well.
Hunger certainly wasn't the driving issue - INSTINCT was.

Certainly NOT the case where I live.
I am affiliated with the local Humane Society and see the damage done
to these abandoned animals.

Don't try to tell the doctor how to do his job, it only makes you look
like an idiot.

Lg

[Scott Hillard]

Post by Lawrence Glickman
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:53:17 +1100, "Scott Hillard"

Post by Scott Hillard
Wrong - cats are incredibly resourceful and quickly adapt "play" behaviour
to survival behaviour.
Our last cat was never "trained" to hunt, but bagged countless rats, mice,
birds, other cats and the odd dog. Possibly one or two small children that
vanished in the local area over his 14 years as well.
Hunger certainly wasn't the driving issue - INSTINCT was.

Certainly NOT the case where I live.

Apartment city? Cats born and 'raised' in a high-rise environment with no
exposure to grass, birds, etc could well fail in the big bad world. An
indoors/ outdoors cat raised in a 'burbs will have no such problem.

Post by Lawrence Glickman
I am affiliated with the local Humane Society and see the damage done
to these abandoned animals.

Bully for you - countless Australians involved in native animal groups see
the damage done by domestic cats that go feral in a daily basis.

Post by Lawrence Glickman
Don't try to tell the doctor how to do his job, it only makes you look
like an idiot.

Not likely - doctors kill more people than guns. They could use some
lessons from the likes of me.

[Lawrence Glickman]

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:46:46 +1100, "Scott Hillard"

Post by Scott Hillard

Post by Lawrence Glickman
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:53:17 +1100, "Scott Hillard"

Post by Scott Hillard
Wrong - cats are incredibly resourceful and quickly adapt "play"

behaviour

Post by Lawrence Glickman

Post by Scott Hillard
to survival behaviour.
Our last cat was never "trained" to hunt, but bagged countless rats,

mice,

Post by Lawrence Glickman

Post by Scott Hillard
birds, other cats and the odd dog. Possibly one or two small children

that

Post by Lawrence Glickman

Post by Scott Hillard
vanished in the local area over his 14 years as well.
Hunger certainly wasn't the driving issue - INSTINCT was.

Certainly NOT the case where I live.

Apartment city? Cats born and 'raised' in a high-rise environment with no
exposure to grass, birds, etc could well fail in the big bad world. An
indoors/ outdoors cat raised in a 'burbs will have no such problem.

Post by Lawrence Glickman
I am affiliated with the local Humane Society and see the damage done
to these abandoned animals.

Bully for you - countless Australians involved in native animal groups see
the damage done by domestic cats that go feral in a daily basis.

you stupid morons, spay and neuter your PETS !

Post by Scott Hillard

Post by Lawrence Glickman
Don't try to tell the doctor how to do his job, it only makes you look
like an idiot.

Not likely - doctors kill more people than guns. They could use some
lessons from the likes of me.

and me too!

Lg

[Tim May]

Post by Lawrence Glickman
On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:46:46 +1100, "Scott Hillard"

Post by Scott Hillard
Bully for you - countless Australians involved in native animal groups see
the damage done by domestic cats that go feral in a daily basis.

you stupid morons, spay and neuter your PETS !

Oz is a land not yet conquered fully by the white man (and by
extension, the white cat, the feline who carries Western, non-nigger
values).

As Oz is conquered, the ineffectual local animals who cannot fight back
against the white man, the white dog, the white cat, will die.

Evolution 101.

In 30 years Oz will look like the California (the coasts) and
Arizona/Nevada (the interiors) of today. McDonalds, Taco Bell, In N
Out, Pep Boys, Costco, and no weird Oz throwbacks. No Vegemite, either.
Think about it.

--Tim May

[Lawrence Glickman]

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:34:14 -0800, Tim May

Post by Tim May

Post by Lawrence Glickman
On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:46:46 +1100, "Scott Hillard"

Post by Scott Hillard
Bully for you - countless Australians involved in native animal groups see
the damage done by domestic cats that go feral in a daily basis.

you stupid morons, spay and neuter your PETS !

Oz is a land not yet conquered fully by the white man (and by
extension, the white cat, the feline who carries Western, non-nigger
values).
As Oz is conquered, the ineffectual local animals who cannot fight back
against the white man, the white dog, the white cat, will die.
Evolution 101.
In 30 years Oz will look like the California (the coasts) and
Arizona/Nevada (the interiors) of today. McDonalds, Taco Bell, In N
Out, Pep Boys, Costco, and no weird Oz throwbacks. No Vegemite, either.
Think about it.
--Tim May

You could be 100% correct on that. Once they push the mud people onto
"reservations" where they can be controlled and counted on not to
interfere with the advances of Civilization, things might become more
Westernized in a hurry.

Keep em full of alcohol, drugs, infected with virulent strains of STD,
deprive them of any meaningful educations, you know, the Standard
Operating Procedure we use here in the USA.

Lg

[lazyike]

Post by Lawrence Glickman
On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:46:46 +1100, "Scott Hillard"

Post by Scott Hillard

Post by Lawrence Glickman
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:53:17 +1100, "Scott Hillard"

Post by Scott Hillard
Wrong - cats are incredibly resourceful and quickly adapt "play"

behaviour

Post by Lawrence Glickman

Post by Scott Hillard
to survival behaviour.
Our last cat was never "trained" to hunt, but bagged countless rats,

mice,

Post by Lawrence Glickman

Post by Scott Hillard
birds, other cats and the odd dog. Possibly one or two small children

that

Post by Lawrence Glickman

Post by Scott Hillard
vanished in the local area over his 14 years as well.
Hunger certainly wasn't the driving issue - INSTINCT was.

Certainly NOT the case where I live.

Apartment city? Cats born and 'raised' in a high-rise environment with no
exposure to grass, birds, etc could well fail in the big bad world. An
indoors/ outdoors cat raised in a 'burbs will have no such problem.

Post by Lawrence Glickman
I am affiliated with the local Humane Society and see the damage done
to these abandoned animals.

Bully for you - countless Australians involved in native animal groups see
the damage done by domestic cats that go feral in a daily basis.

you stupid morons, spay and neuter your PETS !

Post by Scott Hillard

Post by Lawrence Glickman
Don't try to tell the doctor how to do his job, it only makes you look
like an idiot.

Not likely - doctors kill more people than guns. They could use some
lessons from the likes of me.

and me too!
Lg

Well they will be flooding in to the Rabid Doctor Sanctuary of Missouri.
Here our "wonderful" Republinator signed a bill limiting damages done by
a Drunk, Incompetent or Just plain worthless doctor to $50,000.

Ike

[Jeffrey McCann]

Post by Scott Hillard

Post by Lawrence Glickman
Cats have to be _trained_ to hunt.

And this can be achieved by leaving them with their mothers for the first
8-12 weeks of life.

Post by Lawrence Glickman
The average family-raised house
cat hasn't a clue and will suffer a miserable death if abandoned.

Wrong - cats are incredibly resourceful and quickly adapt "play" behaviour
to survival behaviour.
Our last cat was never "trained" to hunt, but bagged countless rats, mice,
birds, other cats and the odd dog. Possibly one or two small children that
vanished in the local area over his 14 years as well.
Hunger certainly wasn't the driving issue - INSTINCT was.

The problem is the transition from "catch," which is instinctual, to "food."
Cats have to be taught to eat their kills, because that is strictly learned
behavior. Moreover, it is well established that almost all abandoned
housepets have short brutal lives. Abandoning them is simply inhumane and
unacceptable.

[Offbreed]

Post by Jeffrey McCann
The problem is the transition from "catch," which is instinctual, to "food."
Cats have to be taught to eat their kills, because that is strictly learned
behavior. Moreover, it is well established that almost all abandoned
housepets have short brutal lives. Abandoning them is simply inhumane and
unacceptable.

I fully agree, but I think the thread has drifted and someone is going
to think stray dogs after TEOTWAWKI will not be a problem because most
house pets abandoned *now* die.

Dogs form packs, and if just one of the pack members knows to start
eating whatever the pack kills, the rest will soon start.

Cats don't form packs, so most of them will die, IMO.

[Jeffrey McCann]

Post by Offbreed

Post by Jeffrey McCann
The problem is the transition from "catch," which is instinctual, to "food."
Cats have to be taught to eat their kills, because that is strictly learned
behavior. Moreover, it is well established that almost all abandoned
housepets have short brutal lives. Abandoning them is simply inhumane and
unacceptable.

I fully agree, but I think the thread has drifted and someone is going
to think stray dogs after TEOTWAWKI will not be a problem because most
house pets abandoned *now* die.
Dogs form packs, and if just one of the pack members knows to start
eating whatever the pack kills, the rest will soon start.
Cats don't form packs, so most of them will die, IMO.

You are right. Abandoned dogs, especially in packs, can be very dangerous.
On the other hand, feral dogs in a TEOTWAWKI situation are just easy-to-take
protein on the hoof (paw).

Jeff

[Offbreed]

Post by Jeffrey McCann
On the other hand, feral dogs in a TEOTWAWKI situation are just easy-to-take
protein on the hoof (paw).

To start with, perhaps.

They get pretty good at sneaking around after they've been shot at a
couple of times. Need to go to traps.

[Lawrence Glickman]

By killing cats you're opening yourself up to vermin infestations the
likes of which you've never seen.

I suggest leaving the cats out of it. Find your protein elsewhere, or
you will regret it when the super rats begin coming in through your
windows.

Lg

[myal]

Post by Offbreed

Post by Jeffrey McCann
The problem is the transition from "catch," which is instinctual, to "food."
Cats have to be taught to eat their kills, because that is strictly learned
behavior. Moreover, it is well established that almost all abandoned
housepets have short brutal lives. Abandoning them is simply inhumane and
unacceptable.

I fully agree, but I think the thread has drifted and someone is going
to think stray dogs after TEOTWAWKI will not be a problem because most
house pets abandoned *now* die.
Dogs form packs, and if just one of the pack members knows to start
eating whatever the pack kills, the rest will soon start.
Cats don't form packs, so most of them will die, IMO.

Maybe not , just going from our feral cat problem here , the buggers
adapt dam well and are nothing more than furry killing breeding machines
, that taste OK with salt .

[Offbreed]

Post by myal
Maybe not , just going from our feral cat problem here , the buggers
adapt dam well and are nothing more than furry killing breeding machines
, that taste OK with salt .

Try bar-b-que sauce. It makes everything taste better. <G>

I don't know what percentage of the cats die from being dumped like
that, but it's high. OTOH, there's a lot of them being dumped and they
can also breed in the wild in most parts of the world.

[TDKozan]

Post by Offbreed

Post by myal
Maybe not , just going from our feral cat problem here , the buggers
adapt dam well and are nothing more than furry killing breeding
machines , that taste OK with salt .

Try bar-b-que sauce. It makes everything taste better. <G>

<snip>

Speaking of that, I can't believe that nobody's reposted Blake Loyd's
masterpiece on the subject from 1999.

========================================================

Maybe you can help me with this Y2K problem. First I suppose I
should give you a little background so you will know what I'm up
against. Back several years ago a friend bought an English bulldog
only to discover that he wasn't allowed to have pets in the apartment
complex where he lived. Well, I kept Dawg, the bulldog, for several
months until my friend could relocate. But after he took Dawg to the
his new house, Dawg came back to my place. He tried several times to
keep Dawg, but Dawg always made his way back to my place. Finally he
just gave up and gave Dawg to me.

Next, early one morning when I was taking out the trash I hear
this pitiful crying. It was coming from under the back steps next to
where I keep the trash can, so I got down and looked to see what it
was. It was the cutest little fluffy gray kitten you could ever see.
Being the old softy that I am, I took it in as well. Over time Cute
Kitty became Cute Cat, and amazingly enough Dawg gets along quite well
with Cute Cat as long as Cute Cat stays out of the kitchen (Dawg's
territory).

Then, the next door neighbor passed away and I sort of inherited
her Persian, Beatrice. I think that Cute Cat may actually be one of
Bea's kittens. Bea's fur is much fuller than Cute Cat's though, but
nearly the same shade of gray.

Finally, just last week the boss at work gave me a
Shits-zu(spelling?). He had bought it for his daughter, but they
found out his wife is allergic to the animal dandruff. His daughter
pitched a fit when he started to take it back to the store, so he
promised her he would see if I would take it and then she could see it
sometimes. It kind of put me on the spot, but what could I do? So,
now I've got Bar as well. I know it's a weird name but Cindy, the
Bosses daughter named him. It's quite appropriate really. When he
barks it is a staccato of bar bar bar bar----bar bar bar bar. It
actually sounds like he is trying to say bar.

Now to the Y2K problem. I heard on the news the other night
that there may be problems with shipping and getting things to market.
The "experts" on the news said there may be shortages, but most
essential items would probably be available. This made me wonder
about what are non-essential items. It quickly came to mind that cat
and dog food might be considered non-essential. Well, I only have so
much room in my house to store stuff. To top it off I only have a
small refrigerator/freezer(no room for a big freezer), and practically
no cabinets for storing food in the kitchen.

So I ask you, if the Y2K problem lasts for weeks or months, what
am I suppose to feed myself, Bar, Bea, Cute Cat, and Dawg?


Loyd (I'm terribly sorry about that. Well, not terribly.)

===========================================================

TK

[unknown]

Post by Offbreed

Post by Jeffrey McCann
The problem is the transition from "catch," which is instinctual, to "food."
Cats have to be taught to eat their kills, because that is strictly learned
behavior. Moreover, it is well established that almost all abandoned
housepets have short brutal lives. Abandoning them is simply inhumane and
unacceptable.

I fully agree, but I think the thread has drifted and someone is going
to think stray dogs after TEOTWAWKI will not be a problem because most
house pets abandoned *now* die.
Dogs form packs, and if just one of the pack members knows to start
eating whatever the pack kills, the rest will soon start.

Dogs are some of the most adaptable animals on EArth. They've
been bred that way. Put them in a pack - which is their natural
instinct - and they'll soon figure out all sorts of tricks to
survive.

Like going after lone, unarmed humans...

Post by Offbreed
Cats don't form packs, so most of them will die, IMO.

Cats WILL form packs if there's plenty of food, water,
and space.

That probably won't happen post TEOTWAWKI. Unless
they're feeding on the bodies of the dead.

And the instinct to form prides is apparently absent
in domestic cats, so they don't have that to fall
back on...

FW

[The Independent of Clackamas County]

Post by unknown

Post by Offbreed

Post by Jeffrey McCann
The problem is the transition from "catch," which is instinctual, to "food."
Cats have to be taught to eat their kills, because that is strictly learned
behavior. Moreover, it is well established that almost all abandoned
housepets have short brutal lives. Abandoning them is simply inhumane and
unacceptable.

I fully agree, but I think the thread has drifted and someone is going
to think stray dogs after TEOTWAWKI will not be a problem because most
house pets abandoned *now* die.
Dogs form packs, and if just one of the pack members knows to start
eating whatever the pack kills, the rest will soon start.

Dogs are some of the most adaptable animals on EArth. They've
been bred that way. Put them in a pack - which is their natural
instinct - and they'll soon figure out all sorts of tricks to
survive.
Like going after lone, unarmed humans...

Post by Offbreed
Cats don't form packs, so most of them will die, IMO.

Cats WILL form packs if there's plenty of food, water,
and space.
That probably won't happen post TEOTWAWKI. Unless
they're feeding on the bodies of the dead.
And the instinct to form prides is apparently absent
in domestic cats, so they don't have that to fall
back on...
FW

Well I have barn yard cats that hunt for a living. However they do have
to be careful of what they hunt. A raven spied the cold cuts on the
ground and came down to have a look. He chased off the cats with a
couple of swipes with is beak then feasted on cold cuts.

I would have chased him off but the Native Americans put a lot of store
in Mr Raven. They say messing with one, will anger the great spirit
and get you a big load of bad juju.
--
The Independent of Clackamas County


"What experience and history teach is this -- That people and
governments never have learned anything from history, or acted
on principles deduced from it"

George Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel
1770-1831

[Offbreed]

Post by unknown
Dogs are some of the most adaptable animals on EArth. They've
been bred that way. Put them in a pack - which is their natural
instinct - and they'll soon figure out all sorts of tricks to
survive.

I don't think they can raise litters in most parts of the world. AFAIK,
the father dog does not have the instinct to bring food home to the
bitch and pups.

Post by unknown
Cats WILL form packs if there's plenty of food, water,
and space.

No, I'm talking about pack hunting behavior. They will form colonies,
but I've never heard of them hunting cooperatively as dogs will.

[unknown]

Post by Offbreed

Post by unknown
Dogs are some of the most adaptable animals on EArth. They've
been bred that way. Put them in a pack - which is their natural
instinct - and they'll soon figure out all sorts of tricks to
survive.

I don't think they can raise litters in most parts of the world. AFAIK,
the father dog does not have the instinct to bring food home to the
bitch and pups.

They'll figure it out. As I said, dogs are adaptable.

Post by Offbreed

Post by unknown
Cats WILL form packs if there's plenty of food, water,
and space.

No, I'm talking about pack hunting behavior. They will form colonies,

This is true.

Post by Offbreed
but I've never heard of them hunting cooperatively as dogs will.

I've seen (and heard of) some cats who do. One will stand out
in plain sight, causing a bird to focus all its attention on
it, while a second cat will creep up on the bird's blind spot
and leap.

It seems to be more learned behavior than instinct, though.

FW

[Halcitron]

Lawrence Glickman Mar 10, 8:48 am

Shoot my neighbors, field dress them in the garage, feed to pets.

++

That reminds me of Ed Gein, serial killer

Buffalo Bill and Psycho

On November 17, 1957 police in Plainfield, Wisconsin arrived at the
dilapidated farmhouse of Eddie Gein who was a suspect in the robbery of
a local hardware store and disappearance of the owner, Bernice Worden.
Gein had been the last customer at the hardware store and had been seen
loitering around the premises.

Gein's desolate farmhouse was a study in chaos. Inside, junk and
rotting garbage covered the floor and counters. It was almost
impossible to walk through the rooms. The smell of filth and
decomposition was overwhelming. While the local sheriff, Arthur Schley,
inspected the kitchen with his flashlight, he felt something brush
against his jacket.

When he looked up to see what it was he ran into, he faced a large,
dangling carcass hanging upside down from the beams. The carcass had
been decapitated, slit open and gutted. An ugly sight to be sure, but
a familiar one in that deer-hunting part of the country, especially
during deer season.

It took a few moments to sink in, but soon Schley realized that it
wasn't a deer at all, it was the headless butchered body of a woman.
Bernice Worden, the fifty-year-old mother of his deputy Frank Worden,
had been found.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/gein/geinmain.htm

Shades of the Texas Chainsaw Masacre

Beware of farmers bringing meats and sausage as gifts.

:/

[Lawrence Glickman]

Post by Halcitron
Lawrence Glickman Mar 10, 8:48 am
Shoot my neighbors, field dress them in the garage, feed to pets.
++
That reminds me of Ed Gein, serial killer
Buffalo Bill and Psycho
On November 17, 1957 police in Plainfield, Wisconsin arrived at the
dilapidated farmhouse of Eddie Gein who was a suspect in the robbery of
a local hardware store and disappearance of the owner, Bernice Worden.

*snip
Plainfield, Wisconsin. Latest word is Ed Gein's house was burned to
the ground some time after he had been incarcerated in the State Home
for the Insane.

He spent the rest of his natural Life in confinment on the grounds of
the hospital, and was a quiet and meek, polite man by all accounts.
Never showed any signs of aggression.

bwwaaahhhaaHHAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[unknown]

Post by Lawrence Glickman
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:23:06 -0000, "On-Liner"

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?

Shoot my neighbors, field dress them in the garage, feed to pets.

O_O

I hope you can nail them before they get the idea to nail you...

I also hope they don't read this board...

Post by Lawrence Glickman

Post by On-Liner
I suspect that many people would just turn the animals loose to fend for
themselves. Would you?

over my dead body

The cats will probably appreciate that...

(A rescue worker once told me that they know from
experience that if you've got a dog, and you die
in your house and no one finds you for a while,
the dog will starve at your side.

If you've got a cat, the cat will be at your side,
too, but it WON'T starve...)

Post by Lawrence Glickman

Post by On-Liner
Some would kill them in as a humane manner as possible. Could you?

have done so too many times

Post by On-Liner
Some will starve themselves before their pets. Should you?

no. I _share_.

Sounds good to me!

Post by Lawrence Glickman

Post by On-Liner
What about you?

What about me

One thing to keep in mind is that, in a TEOTWAWKI situation,
you're going to be under a LOAD of stress. A pet to hold,
stroke, care for, and whisper your fears and hopes into the
ear of... might be a mental health booster worth its weight
in gold.

Literally.

FW

[Gunner]

Post by unknown

Post by Lawrence Glickman

Post by On-Liner
What about you?

What about me

One thing to keep in mind is that, in a TEOTWAWKI situation,
you're going to be under a LOAD of stress. A pet to hold,
stroke, care for, and whisper your fears and hopes into the
ear of... might be a mental health booster worth its weight
in gold.
Literally.
FW

Absolutely. As one who has carried several persons stress load over
the years....the paragraph above is 100%.

Gunner


Lathe Dementia. Recognized as one of the major sub-strains of the
all-consuming virus, Packratitis. Usual symptoms easily recognized
and normally is contracted for life. Can be very contagious.
michael

[Willcox]

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?
I suspect that many people would just turn the animals loose to fend for
themselves. Would you?
Some would kill them in as a humane manner as possible. Could you?
Some will starve themselves before their pets. Should you?
What about you?

It's hard enough putting a loved pet down, but eating it? Just trying
might leave you emotionally scarred for years! :o/ Don't let the kids
find out, ever! lol

Instead, I'd trade the thing off to someone else who can eat it or trade
it.

A small dog that doesn't eat much and isn't much to eat ;oD might be
worth keeping if it makes a good alarm bell for approaching humans and
is a good comfort to the family/kids, something short of supply in
TEOTWAWKI.

[myal]

Post by Willcox

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?
I suspect that many people would just turn the animals loose to fend for
themselves. Would you?
Some would kill them in as a humane manner as possible. Could you?
Some will starve themselves before their pets. Should you?
What about you?

Apoligies for piggy backing .

We ate pets as kids , we raised goats , hand reared them , then ate them
, it was rough at first , and often we wouldnt eat 'our' goat , but
after a bit , we were right in there killing and butchering them as well
as eating them .

I joke about getting hungry when we see a cow or roo on the side of the
road , the kids laugh at it , if you get someone to laugh at something ,
they are 1/2 way to accepting it .

Its not such the big deal its made out to be , realy .

Post by Willcox
It's hard enough putting a loved pet down, but eating it? Just trying
might leave you emotionally scarred for years! :o/ Don't let the kids
find out, ever! lol
Instead, I'd trade the thing off to someone else who can eat it or trade
it.
A small dog that doesn't eat much and isn't much to eat ;oD might be
worth keeping if it makes a good alarm bell for approaching humans and
is a good comfort to the family/kids, something short of supply in
TEOTWAWKI.

[Lawrence Glickman]

Post by myal

Post by Willcox

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?
I suspect that many people would just turn the animals loose to fend for
themselves. Would you?
Some would kill them in as a humane manner as possible. Could you?
Some will starve themselves before their pets. Should you?
What about you?

Apoligies for piggy backing .
We ate pets as kids , we raised goats , hand reared them , then ate them
, it was rough at first , and often we wouldnt eat 'our' goat , but
after a bit , we were right in there killing and butchering them as well
as eating them .
I joke about getting hungry when we see a cow or roo on the side of the
road , the kids laugh at it , if you get someone to laugh at something ,
they are 1/2 way to accepting it .
Its not such the big deal its made out to be , realy .

Post by Willcox
It's hard enough putting a loved pet down, but eating it? Just trying
might leave you emotionally scarred for years! :o/ Don't let the kids
find out, ever! lol
Instead, I'd trade the thing off to someone else who can eat it or trade
it.
A small dog that doesn't eat much and isn't much to eat ;oD might be
worth keeping if it makes a good alarm bell for approaching humans and
is a good comfort to the family/kids, something short of supply in
TEOTWAWKI.

I won't do it, because my *pets* have been more loyal to me than any
human ever has been, present wife notwithstanding.

Lg

[myal]

Post by Lawrence Glickman

Post by myal

Post by Willcox

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?
I suspect that many people would just turn the animals loose to fend for
themselves. Would you?
Some would kill them in as a humane manner as possible. Could you?
Some will starve themselves before their pets. Should you?
What about you?

Apoligies for piggy backing .
We ate pets as kids , we raised goats , hand reared them , then ate them
, it was rough at first , and often we wouldnt eat 'our' goat , but
after a bit , we were right in there killing and butchering them as well
as eating them .
I joke about getting hungry when we see a cow or roo on the side of the
road , the kids laugh at it , if you get someone to laugh at something ,
they are 1/2 way to accepting it .
Its not such the big deal its made out to be , realy .

Post by Willcox
It's hard enough putting a loved pet down, but eating it? Just trying
might leave you emotionally scarred for years! :o/ Don't let the kids
find out, ever! lol
Instead, I'd trade the thing off to someone else who can eat it or trade
it.
A small dog that doesn't eat much and isn't much to eat ;oD might be
worth keeping if it makes a good alarm bell for approaching humans and
is a good comfort to the family/kids, something short of supply in
TEOTWAWKI.

I won't do it, because my *pets* have been more loyal to me than any
human ever has been, present wife notwithstanding.
Lg

My dogs are safe , the goat... well , its the kids baby right now . I am
not going to eat it right now :)

[Willcox]

Post by myal
We ate pets as kids , we raised goats , hand reared them , then ate them
, it was rough at first , and often we wouldnt eat 'our' goat , but
after a bit , we were right in there killing and butchering them as well
as eating them .

This would be different from most loved pets raised without any
intention of eating them :o/

[myal]

Post by Willcox

Post by myal
We ate pets as kids , we raised goats , hand reared them , then ate them
, it was rough at first , and often we wouldnt eat 'our' goat , but
after a bit , we were right in there killing and butchering them as well
as eating them .

This would be different from most loved pets raised without any
intention of eating them :o/

Yes... and no , we had dogs , one of them began killing stock , we shot
him , part of life , it was my dog , had him since as long as I could
remember . Had his pelt for years after too .

I think that living on a farm tends to put a totaly different slant on
the life / death thing with animals , that or we were just a bunch of
heartless bastards .

[Halcitron]

myal Mar 10, 11:20 pm

Post by Willcox

Post by myal
We ate pets as kids , we raised goats , hand reared them , then ate them
, it was rough at first , and often we wouldnt eat 'our' goat , but
after a bit , we were right in there killing and butchering them as well
as eating them .

This would be different from most loved pets raised without any
intention of eating them :o/

Yes... and no , we had dogs , one of them began killing stock , we shot

him , part of life , it was my dog , had him since as long as I could
remember . Had his pelt for years after too .

I think that living on a farm tends to put a totaly different slant on
the life / death thing with animals , that or we were just a bunch of
heartless bastards .

++
I would agree that living away from the city, puts a different view on
survival, because you are living less under city laws and more under
Nature's Laws. The farmer, rancher, cowboy, or woodsman, all to some
degree, have to adapt, their life style and set their priorities, to
fit within Nature. People who venture into uncivilized territory, must
learn to adapt.

The early adventurers, explorers and pioneers, who went on expeditions,
voyages, quests, crusades, etc., had to prepare themselves mentally and
physically, arm themselves with materials and educations, sufficient to
deal with the extremes of the challenge, they would face when they
severed their umbilical cords, to civilized society.

:/

[Sue]

Post by Halcitron
myal Mar 10, 11:20 pm

Post by Willcox

Post by myal
We ate pets as kids , we raised goats , hand reared them , then ate

them

Post by Willcox

Post by myal
, it was rough at first , and often we wouldnt eat 'our' goat , but
after a bit , we were right in there killing and butchering them as

well

Post by Willcox

Post by myal
as eating them .

This would be different from most loved pets raised without any
intention of eating them :o/

Yes... and no , we had dogs , one of them began killing stock , we shot
him , part of life , it was my dog , had him since as long as I could
remember . Had his pelt for years after too .
I think that living on a farm tends to put a totaly different slant on
the life / death thing with animals , that or we were just a bunch of
heartless bastards .
++
I would agree that living away from the city, puts a different view on
survival, because you are living less under city laws and more under
Nature's Laws. The farmer, rancher, cowboy, or woodsman, all to some
degree, have to adapt, their life style and set their priorities, to
fit within Nature. People who venture into uncivilized territory, must
learn to adapt.

This reminds me of when I was in junior high and went to visit a good
friend who lived on a ranch. It was a rainy day so we were playing in
the hay barn and she decided we should move the bales and catch mice.
We made a pen of some of the bales and put bunches of the mice in
there including lots of babies. I tell ya, this city girl was
appalled when my friend rounded up a couple of her cats and put them
in the "pen". To this day I can still hear the crunching of those
little bones. <G>
Sue

[Sue]

Post by Willcox

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?
I suspect that many people would just turn the animals loose to fend for
themselves. Would you?
Some would kill them in as a humane manner as possible. Could you?
Some will starve themselves before their pets. Should you?
What about you?

It's hard enough putting a loved pet down, but eating it? Just trying
might leave you emotionally scarred for years! :o/ Don't let the kids
find out, ever! lol
Instead, I'd trade the thing off to someone else who can eat it or trade
it.

My ex-in-laws bought two calves to raise for meat but made the mistake
of naming them after friends. They wound up selling them to someone
who *could* eat them as they couldn't bring themselves to do so.
Sue

[myal]

Post by Sue

Post by Willcox

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?
I suspect that many people would just turn the animals loose to fend for
themselves. Would you?
Some would kill them in as a humane manner as possible. Could you?
Some will starve themselves before their pets. Should you?
What about you?

It's hard enough putting a loved pet down, but eating it? Just trying
might leave you emotionally scarred for years! :o/ Don't let the kids
find out, ever! lol
Instead, I'd trade the thing off to someone else who can eat it or trade
it.

My ex-in-laws bought two calves to raise for meat but made the mistake
of naming them after friends. They wound up selling them to someone
who *could* eat them as they couldn't bring themselves to do so.
Sue

We were given geese by a lady who became a buhdist , she wouldnt eat
them because they could be some of her friends re-incarnated .

We promised we wouldnt eat them , and they did indeed live good long lives .

Their goslings however didnt last long , and tasted good .

[Bob G]

Post by myal

Post by Sue

Post by Willcox

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?
I suspect that many people would just turn the animals loose to fend for
themselves. Would you?
Some would kill them in as a humane manner as possible. Could you?
Some will starve themselves before their pets. Should you?
What about you?

It's hard enough putting a loved pet down, but eating it? Just trying
might leave you emotionally scarred for years! :o/ Don't let the kids
find out, ever! lol
Instead, I'd trade the thing off to someone else who can eat it or trade
it.

My ex-in-laws bought two calves to raise for meat but made the mistake
of naming them after friends. They wound up selling them to someone
who *could* eat them as they couldn't bring themselves to do so.
Sue

We were given geese by a lady who became a buhdist , she wouldnt eat
them because they could be some of her friends re-incarnated .
We promised we wouldnt eat them , and they did indeed live good long lives .
Their goslings however didnt last long , and tasted good .

Chuckle, I know little about Buhhdists. Some, but not much.

Am well aware of the belief in reincarnation. Wasn't aware they'd be
concerned that a goose might be Aunt Martha returned to earth, and
thus unable to eat a goose.

A bit different from the traiditional beliefs I was taught. Which
hold that we're all (all living things and all energy) part of One.
Just different facets or faces of the same thing. Thus all related
after a fashion.

Thus, tho a modern person, I can't help but to occassionally drop back
on things instilled in me as a child. So I tend to say a little
prayer of thanks, and words to honor my food. Comes automatically,
and it just doesn't "feel" right if I do not do so. Especially if my
food of the time is food I killed or harvested myself.

LOL ... somehow if it's a hunk of meat bought plastic wrapped, or
served in a restaurant. I'm detached. But if it's a fish I've
caught, or another critter I just killed for eating, or even veggies
I'm harvesting from my garden. Prayer of thanks just seems the right
think to do. Along with words of praise. ie To ancestors of and the
spirit of that fish, giving thanks for the gift of food for myself and
family, and words praise for the beauty of the fish, it's strenght,
strong spirit, and so forth.

But part and parcel with those inner core feelings and belief, is no
hestitation whatsoever to eat the fish. (or bird, deer, etc) Doing
so is, to me, just part of the natural order of things.

ie Tiniest of fish eat algae, plankton, etc. Bigger fish eat smaller
fish, and bugs, and so forth. Biggest fish eat the bigger fish.
Otters, eagles, whatever eat fish. Humans eat fish, and those which
also eat fish. Some land animals eat plants. And some eat insects.
Others eat animals which eat plants and/or insects. Humans eat
plants, insects, animals which eat plants and/or insects, and animals
which eat animals. Likewise, some animals would eat humans, if they
can. I don't hold that against em. It's just their nature. And if
they come for me or mine, we will have a conest, to see who eats whom.

<Shrug> Just the way it is. As natural as natural can be.

So I've never faced the quandry of worrying about if this or that fish
or deer, pheasant or hog might hold the spirit of great Uncle Joe. If
so, then his spirit would quite understand my actions. I'm playing my
role, he is playing his. As long as I honor and respect him. All is
fine, no problems.

Bob

[Mr.North]

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:23:06 -0000, "On-Liner"

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?
I suspect that many people would just turn the animals loose to fend for
themselves. Would you?
Some would kill them in as a humane manner as possible. Could you?
Some will starve themselves before their pets. Should you?
What about you?

I'll eat the damn pets, no biggie to me. I'll also eat the pets of
those to chickenhearted to eat their own pets. That of course is after
the pet has fattened up on their former owner who will die of
starvation.

n.

[Antipodean Bucket Farmer]

In article

Post by Lawrence Glickman
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:23:06 -0000, "On-Liner"

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?
I suspect that many people would just turn the animals loose to fend for
themselves. Would you?
Some would kill them in as a humane manner as possible. Could you?
Some will starve themselves before their pets. Should you?
What about you?

I'll eat the damn pets, no biggie to me. I'll also eat the pets of
those to chickenhearted to eat their own pets. That of course is after
the pet has fattened up on their former owner who will die of
starvation.

But, on a practical point, how will you transport those
pets up to your personal space station, while you chow
down and wait out the next 50K years of "hell-on-earth"
after a major asteroid strike?

Enquiring minds want to know!

[North]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:17:24 -0800, Antipodean Bucket Farmer

Post by Antipodean Bucket Farmer
In article

Post by Lawrence Glickman
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:23:06 -0000, "On-Liner"

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?
I suspect that many people would just turn the animals loose to fend for
themselves. Would you?
Some would kill them in as a humane manner as possible. Could you?
Some will starve themselves before their pets. Should you?
What about you?

I'll eat the damn pets, no biggie to me. I'll also eat the pets of
those to chickenhearted to eat their own pets. That of course is after
the pet has fattened up on their former owner who will die of
starvation.

But, on a practical point, how will you transport those
pets up to your personal space station, while you chow
down and wait out the next 50K years of "hell-on-earth"
after a major asteroid strike?
Enquiring minds want to know!

What have you been smoking ? Whatever it is, it is fucking with your
mind.

n.

[JonquilJan]

Dogs will be good for lookouts (even the yappy ankle biters) and, if they
are big enough, for guard duty, and, if they are of the right breed(s)
hunting (bird dogs). Cats will help keep down the vermin that could
endanger your food stocks. Pet birds - perhaps could alert you to air
quality problems (thinking about use of canaries in mines). Tropical fish
would soon succumb to cold temperatures - or perhaps extra hot temps in
warmer climates - or could be used for bait for bigger fish. Snakes - taste
like chicken I have been told.

Horses can be useful for transportation, hauling items, plowing - as can
oxen. But both would have to be broken to harness. And, if in the colder
climates, there is the problem of getting in hay for the winter months.

As for other 'pets' - we get into the area of livestock treated as pets - a
whole other subject.

I had to have my dog, my best friend ever, put to sleep a year and a half
ago. Don't want to go through that again - at least not right now. So I
haven't taken in another canine. My cats all died very suddenly last
summer - from a fast moving and new (to the area) virus the vet told me.
And now I am fighting the mice. I will have another cat, or cats, soon.

And most 'pets' will survive quite well on the 'leftovers' or scraps from
our own food preparations.

No I would not kill my pets - except in extreme circumstances - and if I had
no chance of survival myself. Otherwise would keep them close and we would
go through the traumas together.

Jan

Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying

[The Independent of Clackamas County]

Post by JonquilJan
Dogs will be good for lookouts (even the yappy ankle biters) and, if they
are big enough, for guard duty, and, if they are of the right breed(s)
hunting (bird dogs). Cats will help keep down the vermin that could
endanger your food stocks. Pet birds - perhaps could alert you to air
quality problems (thinking about use of canaries in mines). Tropical fish
would soon succumb to cold temperatures - or perhaps extra hot temps in
warmer climates - or could be used for bait for bigger fish. Snakes - taste
like chicken I have been told.
Horses can be useful for transportation, hauling items, plowing - as can
oxen. But both would have to be broken to harness. And, if in the colder
climates, there is the problem of getting in hay for the winter months.
As for other 'pets' - we get into the area of livestock treated as pets - a
whole other subject.
I had to have my dog, my best friend ever, put to sleep a year and a half
ago. Don't want to go through that again - at least not right now. So I
haven't taken in another canine. My cats all died very suddenly last
summer - from a fast moving and new (to the area) virus the vet told me.
And now I am fighting the mice. I will have another cat, or cats, soon.
And most 'pets' will survive quite well on the 'leftovers' or scraps from
our own food preparations.
No I would not kill my pets - except in extreme circumstances - and if I had
no chance of survival myself. Otherwise would keep them close and we would
go through the traumas together.
Jan

Most of us who own horses don't really consider them as pets in the same
way you do a dog. A horse is a working animal, it upkeep and care is
just to expensive if your are not going to use them. A horse is a pet
much like a Car is a pet. It must have some other use even if you don't
use it.

You can't have a horse jump in you lap and want to petted. Well I guess
you can but it will only happen once.
--
The Independent of Clackamas County


"What experience and history teach is this -- That people and
governments never have learned anything from history, or acted
on principles deduced from it"

George Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel
1770-1831

[Tim May]

Post by JonquilJan
And most 'pets' will survive quite well on the 'leftovers' or scraps from
our own food preparations.
No I would not kill my pets - except in extreme circumstances - and if I had
no chance of survival myself. Otherwise would keep them close and we would
go through the traumas together.

My current cat only likes the dry food, the Science Diet or IAMS or
similar (he might also like the generic, cheaper stuff, but I never buy
it for him). A 20-pound bag lasts for several months,...I have not
carefully charted this, but it seems I buy one every several months.

(If an "average" 160-lb person maintains even weight with slightly over
a dry pound of food per day, then an average 12-lb cat should survive
on about 1/12th of this. Even adjusting for faster metabolism, but
offset in the other direction by more hours spent sleeping, and less
efficient feline gut, not much more than this. Call it 2 dry ounces per
day, to be generous. Or about 160 days, six months. Now that I have a
new electronic scale in my kitchen, I ought to actually weigh his bowl
every few days to see how much he's eating. I keep his food dish filled
at all times...being a cat, he doesn't overeat. So the best way to
measure his consumption is to weigh the bowl of food and not the
decrease.)

The bottom line being that a couple of 20-lb bags ought to last close
to a year. As near as I can tell, this food does not go bad (e.g., get
rancid). And, so far, weevils and whatnot have never shown up in the
bags. Any disaster which goes on longer than this amount of time is not
something I worry too much about preparing for.

(Hint: Even the folks in Kosovo and Somalia and other hellholes were
not cut off for this long. Even the hyperinflation in Weimar Germany
did not cut people off. Even the big quakes, the volcanoes, etc.,
don't. It is remotely possible that a "Lucifer's Hammer" or nuclear war
sort of disaster may happen, but it's not something I try to prepare
for in general. Living where I live is the best protection against a
nuclear war.)

Adjust accordingly for dogs, multiple animals, etc.

And I have no illusion that my animals will suddenly start "earning
their keep" in a TEOTWAWKI situation by doing things they have not been
accustomed to doing, either mousing or doing guard duty. Frankly, the
best way to protect against rodents and vermin is to seal off food
containers (deny them access to food), set traps, etc. And having a dog
as a "yapper" is not necessarily a good intrusion system. For one
thing, this announces that a house is occupied, which might be the
wrong thing if the idea is to be stealthy, pace our discussions from
several years back of blacking out windows or minimizing lights at
night, to keep from being the only house lit up for milels around.
There are reasons to look abandoned or dead inside, though these are
not sure-fire reasons in all cases. Having a yappy dog is pretty much
like lighting up a house at night...it may draw the scavengers.

--Tim May

[Stormin Mormon]

Would it be easier to write the opening date on the bag with a Sharpie, and
then note the empty date?

I think that weighing the bowl (not the decrease in food weight) won't do
much. Suposing I use a 6 ounce ceramic bowl, and you use a two ounce plastic
bowl. What use is that information?
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Tim May" <***@removethis.got.net> wrote in message news:100320051800266753%***@removethis.got.net...

My current cat only likes the dry food, the Science Diet or IAMS or
similar (he might also like the generic, cheaper stuff, but I never buy
it for him). A 20-pound bag lasts for several months,...I have not
carefully charted this, but it seems I buy one every several months.

(If an "average" 160-lb person maintains even weight with slightly over
a dry pound of food per day, then an average 12-lb cat should survive
on about 1/12th of this. Even adjusting for faster metabolism, but
offset in the other direction by more hours spent sleeping, and less
efficient feline gut, not much more than this. Call it 2 dry ounces per
day, to be generous. Or about 160 days, six months. Now that I have a
new electronic scale in my kitchen, I ought to actually weigh his bowl
every few days to see how much he's eating. I keep his food dish filled
at all times...being a cat, he doesn't overeat. So the best way to
measure his consumption is to weigh the bowl of food and not the
decrease.)


--Tim May

[Scott Hillard]

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?

Eat the neighbours, feed the scraps to my pets.

[Bob G]

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:23:06 -0000, "On-Liner"

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?
I suspect that many people would just turn the animals loose to fend for
themselves. Would you?
Some would kill them in as a humane manner as possible. Could you?
Some will starve themselves before their pets. Should you?
What about you?

First off. I'd be very reluctant to kill my pets. Things would have
to get danged bad.

It is an emotional thing, but it's also more than than. I live in a
rural area, so the cat and the ferrets are handy for pest control.
The dogs are handy for all the obvious reasons.

If it got right down to it, however, would I turn em lose or kill em?

In most cases turning em lose would be more cruel than killing em. An
almost certain death penalty ... probably a slow one. I'd kill em.
Granting that there wasn't someone else who might care for them.

Could I kill em? Oh certainly. Not even an issue. BTDT. Don't like
doing it, breaks my heart. But yah do what yah gotta do, and get on
with life.

Just do yourself and your pet a favor if it comes killing time. If
you're gonna do it, DO IT ! Some be a sniveling whimpering ass. I put
this in because I had a casual acquaintance who needed to do in a pet.
Pet dog was old and ill. Guy didn't have the cash to have a vet do
the task. Asked me about it. I suggested a well placed bullet. But
guy lived in town, so shooting was out unless he went into the
country. He asked about strangulation or hanging or breaking of neck.
I told him to stop being ridiculous. Isn't nearly as easy or fast to
strangle a critter as it might seem if all yah got to judge by is what
you've seen on TV. Nor to break a neck. (Why do people think what's
on TV bears any resemblance whatsoever to reality?) I suggested well
placed blow to back of head. Using suitably hard object. And do it
like yah mean it. Done right, even if first blow does not kill, it so
stuns the animal that it's not really gonna feel much by way of pain.
And yah follow up with the final blow. Or two if you're really a bad
aim.

Guy asked me to come over and give him some moral support and a little
guidance. I did. Geez, he gritted teeth and closed eyes and made a
mess of it. Poor dog got lacerated skin, stunned, but not that much.
Wasn't even knocked down and out. Guy tries again, same deal. He's
squinting, closing eyes, giving it a half effort, crying, etc. I tell
guy, "Oh for crying out loud man, Stopping torturing the damned dog.
Make it clean." I couldn't take it. The dog had been a good one. He
didn't deserve this. I grabbed club from the guy and gave dog a
merciful whack. He dropped like a rock. And I gave it one more, to
be sure he was permanently asleep. Gave guy a disgusted look. I was
more than a bit pissed at him at the moment. But then let up, and let
it pass. Told him that if there was ever a next time for such
necessity, just call. I'd do it. At least I'd be mercilessly ...
merciful.

I know. Some reading this will think me cruel. I think otherwise.
If it's necessary to kill, I'll do my own killing. And I'll make it
quick. Doing in the critter slow, because you're a whimp about it, is
NOT being kind. Or good hearted. Or anything of the sort.

To be kind, if it's a pet and you're trying to be merciful. Yah must
be cold, ruthless, and efficient. Get it done quickly. Forget your
own feelings ... til later.

BTW, I get pretty disgusted with people who think they're being kind
by taking household pet they must get rid of, who just turn em lose
because they haven't the "heart" to do otherwise. Yeah, BS. For most
household pets, they're gonna die. Just slower. And maybe wondering
why yah don't want em any more and are doing this to them. Really
have a heart for em? Stop feeling sorry for your lousy self, and do
the right thing. If best available option is to kill. Then do it and
do it right. Your own feelings be damned. Object is to show kindness
and mercy to a faithful pet.

Anyway, I'll stop ranting. It's just when folks let their own
emotions to cause them to be idiots ... and cruel ... but comfort
selves with the thought that it's okay because they either don't have
to witness the death, and/or they got someone else to do the deed ...
or they try to do it themselves with half measures. I tend to have
nothing but utter disgust for such folks. It's false good
heartedness. Reality is, what matters to em most is their own
feelings. It's shear selfishness and self concern.

Now, in such scenario as you mention.

We have several pets. I'd have to be pragmatic and practical. If we
absolutely could no longer support all. I'd go down the list. Can't
feed the fish? They go. Can't feed the bird, it dies. She'd have no
chance whatsoever in the wild. Etc. Dogs would be last on the list.

And it'd break my heart. But if it were necessary, I'd certainly do
it.

However, Spikey Haired Mutants, PETA members, gang bangers, etc
beware. At this point I'd be far more tempted to use such as a new
food source for my dogs. Well cooked, of course. As I'd not want my
dogs to get ill from such likely tainted meat.

Let myself starve before my pets? That's a difficult question.

If it were only me and them. I can't honestly answer the question
until such reality occurs. I am very fond of them.

But if it's a question of them; or my wife, kids or grandkids, or
closest friends? Dogs are gonna die. Simple as that.

Bob

[OnLiner]

Post by Bob G

Post by On-Liner
In the worst case scenario where the fan is well covered with manure and
foodstocks are almost non-existent, what will you do with your pets?
Most people who say they love their animals would never think of eating
them - although this may happen to a great many - but if there just wasn't
enough for both humans and animals, what would you do?
I suspect that many people would just turn the animals loose to fend for
themselves. Would you?
Some would kill them in as a humane manner as possible. Could you?
Some will starve themselves before their pets. Should you?
What about you?

First off. I'd be very reluctant to kill my pets. Things would have
to get danged bad.
It is an emotional thing, but it's also more than than. I live in a
rural area, so the cat and the ferrets are handy for pest control.
The dogs are handy for all the obvious reasons.
If it got right down to it, however, would I turn em lose or kill em?
In most cases turning em lose would be more cruel than killing em. An
almost certain death penalty ... probably a slow one. I'd kill em.
Granting that there wasn't someone else who might care for them.
Could I kill em? Oh certainly. Not even an issue. BTDT. Don't like
doing it, breaks my heart. But yah do what yah gotta do, and get on
with life.
Just do yourself and your pet a favor if it comes killing time. If
you're gonna do it, DO IT ! Some be a sniveling whimpering ass. I put
this in because I had a casual acquaintance who needed to do in a pet.
Pet dog was old and ill. Guy didn't have the cash to have a vet do
the task. Asked me about it. I suggested a well placed bullet. But
guy lived in town, so shooting was out unless he went into the
country. He asked about strangulation or hanging or breaking of neck.
I told him to stop being ridiculous. Isn't nearly as easy or fast to
strangle a critter as it might seem if all yah got to judge by is what
you've seen on TV. Nor to break a neck. (Why do people think what's
on TV bears any resemblance whatsoever to reality?) I suggested well
placed blow to back of head. Using suitably hard object. And do it
like yah mean it. Done right, even if first blow does not kill, it so
stuns the animal that it's not really gonna feel much by way of pain.
And yah follow up with the final blow. Or two if you're really a bad
aim.
Guy asked me to come over and give him some moral support and a little
guidance. I did. Geez, he gritted teeth and closed eyes and made a
mess of it. Poor dog got lacerated skin, stunned, but not that much.
Wasn't even knocked down and out. Guy tries again, same deal. He's
squinting, closing eyes, giving it a half effort, crying, etc. I tell
guy, "Oh for crying out loud man, Stopping torturing the damned dog.
Make it clean." I couldn't take it. The dog had been a good one. He
didn't deserve this. I grabbed club from the guy and gave dog a
merciful whack. He dropped like a rock. And I gave it one more, to
be sure he was permanently asleep. Gave guy a disgusted look. I was
more than a bit pissed at him at the moment. But then let up, and let
it pass. Told him that if there was ever a next time for such
necessity, just call. I'd do it. At least I'd be mercilessly ...
merciful.
I know. Some reading this will think me cruel. I think otherwise.
If it's necessary to kill, I'll do my own killing. And I'll make it
quick. Doing in the critter slow, because you're a whimp about it, is
NOT being kind. Or good hearted. Or anything of the sort.
To be kind, if it's a pet and you're trying to be merciful. Yah must
be cold, ruthless, and efficient. Get it done quickly. Forget your
own feelings ... til later.
BTW, I get pretty disgusted with people who think they're being kind
by taking household pet they must get rid of, who just turn em lose
because they haven't the "heart" to do otherwise. Yeah, BS. For most
household pets, they're gonna die. Just slower. And maybe wondering
why yah don't want em any more and are doing this to them. Really
have a heart for em? Stop feeling sorry for your lousy self, and do
the right thing. If best available option is to kill. Then do it and
do it right. Your own feelings be damned. Object is to show kindness
and mercy to a faithful pet.
Anyway, I'll stop ranting. It's just when folks let their own
emotions to cause them to be idiots ... and cruel ... but comfort
selves with the thought that it's okay because they either don't have
to witness the death, and/or they got someone else to do the deed ...
or they try to do it themselves with half measures. I tend to have
nothing but utter disgust for such folks. It's false good
heartedness. Reality is, what matters to em most is their own
feelings. It's shear selfishness and self concern.
Now, in such scenario as you mention.
We have several pets. I'd have to be pragmatic and practical. If we
absolutely could no longer support all. I'd go down the list. Can't
feed the fish? They go. Can't feed the bird, it dies. She'd have no
chance whatsoever in the wild. Etc. Dogs would be last on the list.
And it'd break my heart. But if it were necessary, I'd certainly do
it.
However, Spikey Haired Mutants, PETA members, gang bangers, etc
beware. At this point I'd be far more tempted to use such as a new
food source for my dogs. Well cooked, of course. As I'd not want my
dogs to get ill from such likely tainted meat.
Let myself starve before my pets? That's a difficult question.
If it were only me and them. I can't honestly answer the question
until such reality occurs. I am very fond of them.
But if it's a question of them; or my wife, kids or grandkids, or
closest friends? Dogs are gonna die. Simple as that.
Bob

Thanks, Bob. That's probably the best - most comprehensive and interesting -
reply so far.

[E***@spamblock.panix.com]

Post by Bob G
Just do yourself and your pet a favor if it comes killing time. If
you're gonna do it, DO IT ! Some be a sniveling whimpering ass.

I used to pre-kill my snake's meals when he was small. He's plenty big
enough now to do it himself. :)

Your advice is good. The merciful thing to do is to strike like you have
no mercy. You want to do it instantly. What you DON'T want is blood
flying, screaming and kicking after the first blow. BTDT. It is no fun
for the squeamish or the merciful.

In societies like our Good Friends And Allies Forever have in Saudi
Arabia, where beheading is used to execute prisoners, the prisoner gives
a tip to the excutioner before he does his work.

In the context of this thread, the reason the condemned gives a tip to
the executioner should be obvious.

[Bob G]

Post by E***@spamblock.panix.com
In societies like our Good Friends And Allies Forever have in Saudi
Arabia, where beheading is used to execute prisoners, the prisoner gives
a tip to the excutioner before he does his work.
In the context of this thread, the reason the condemned gives a tip to
the executioner should be obvious.

Yep. In the prisoner's place, I might offer to show execution how to
sharpen his instrument the right way. Might as well. Hell, crying is
unlikely to do yah any good.

Bob

[myal]

Post by Bob G

Post by E***@spamblock.panix.com
In societies like our Good Friends And Allies Forever have in Saudi
Arabia, where beheading is used to execute prisoners, the prisoner gives
a tip to the excutioner before he does his work.
In the context of this thread, the reason the condemned gives a tip to
the executioner should be obvious.

Yep. In the prisoner's place, I might offer to show execution how to
sharpen his instrument the right way. Might as well. Hell, crying is
unlikely to do yah any good.
Bob

Why stop at sharpening ? Show him exactly how you want it done , get him
to kneel and give him a demo