Next week’sFed-Up

Will contain an item with the Archers’ editor about the `jim story.

THBAPSA

--
Toodle Pip

Penny

2020-02-28 17:57:55 UTC

On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:56:46 GMT, Mike <***@ntlworld.com> scrawled
in the dust...

Post by Mike
Will contain an item with the Archers’ editor about the `jim story.
THBAPSA

Thanks, I missed much of the programme trying to figure out if everyone's
power was out or just mine. Fortunately power has just come on again, I was
getting a bit chilly.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-02-29 04:13:08 UTC

Post by Penny
in the dust...

Post by Mike
Will contain an item with the Archers’ editor about the `jim story.
THBAPSA

Thanks, I missed much of the programme trying to figure out if everyone's
power was out or just mine. Fortunately power has just come on again, I was
getting a bit chilly.

If the timeclock on your heating is an electromechanical one (and you
use it), don't forget to correct it.

(I prefer the mechanical sort - for a start, you can check the on/off
times you've set more or less at a glance - but you do have to wind them
on after a power cut.)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

And Jonathan Harker would never have sent all those letters to his beloved
Mina from Transylvania, he'd have texted her instead. "Stuck in weird castle w
guy w big teeth. Missing u. xxxx (-:" - Alison Graham, RT 2015/11/7-13

Penny

2020-02-29 09:28:12 UTC

On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 04:13:08 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by Penny
Thanks, I missed much of the programme trying to figure out if everyone's
power was out or just mine. Fortunately power has just come on again, I was
getting a bit chilly.

If the timeclock on your heating is an electromechanical one (and you
use it), don't forget to correct it.

I think it must have a back-up battery, the clock was right when I checked.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(I prefer the mechanical sort - for a start, you can check the on/off
times you've set more or less at a glance - but you do have to wind them
on after a power cut.)

Yes, I had one of those for years, much easier in many ways but could not
do different programs for different days of the week which I now rely upon
for 'bath day'.

They are easier to wind on too, I'm not keen on the buttons for making
adjustments and I'm not quite tall enough to read the led display in all
light conditions - despite the fact I mentioned this problem to the
engineer who shifted it for me recently and was the same height as I am.

I did have to reset some radio clocks. I think the newest one can be fitted
with batteries for power cuts which would save the 'alarm' times. It
figures out the time all by itself. I was surprised the very cheap and
not-very-good bedside one which has a tendency to forget what time it is
entirely and switch itself on at odd hours had not only set its time
correctly but remembered its alarm settings.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Mike

2020-02-29 10:54:13 UTC

Post by Penny
They are easier to wind on too, I'm not keen on the buttons for making
adjustments and I'm not quite tall enough to read the led display in all
light conditions - despite the fact I mentioned this problem to the
engineer who shifted it for me recently and was the same height as I am.

-
I had the same problem with the CH controller;even wearing my speading
recks, I had great difficulty in reading the display to reset or make any
changes, neck craning, a great deal of repetition and patience was required
to effect any changes. I was very pleased when we changed to a Hive system
which allows for programming with a tablet or smartphone.😊

--
Toodle Pip

Penny

2020-02-29 12:15:14 UTC

On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 10:54:13 GMT, Mike <***@ntlworld.com> scrawled
in the dust...

I think I was offered something like that but if the only way of
controlling the heating is by using another, mobile, device which may not
be working or findable when you need it did not appeal.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Mike

2020-02-29 12:45:57 UTC

Post by Penny
in the dust...

I think I was offered something like that but if the only way of
controlling the heating is by using another, mobile, device which may not
be working or findable when you need it did not appeal.

With Hive, you have a battery* powered controller using its’ own receiver
and hub (mains powered); the controller has a full display facility and
capability to programme your full heating and hot water schedule, the
display is workable and can be free standing or fixed in a position but I
just find it easier to use my iPad to to carry out any instructions and
modifications. Even if the controller (which includes a thermostat) is
fixed to a wall or whatever, it can be detached and used in your hand.

* 4 x AA cells m’Lud.

--
Toodle Pip

Mike

2020-02-29 12:52:24 UTC

Post by Penny
in the dust...

I think I was offered something like that but if the only way of
controlling the heating is by using another, mobile, device which may not
be working or findable when you need it did not appeal.

I should add that the Hive’s Hub is also linked with your own network via
wi-fi for the iPad/Phone/Android connection if required as a means of
communicating with you system. It also allows remote monitoring and
analysis of the Hivevequipment by Gritish Bas via the ‘innernet’.

--
Toodle Pip

Penny

2020-02-29 14:55:27 UTC

On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:45:57 GMT, Mike <***@ntlworld.com> scrawled
in the dust...

Post by Penny
in the dust...

I think I was offered something like that but if the only way of
controlling the heating is by using another, mobile, device which may not
be working or findable when you need it did not appeal.

Ah yes, d#1 has such a mobile controller. They have (for some reason I
don't understand) much insulation between floors in their house.
Consequently, when she goes to bed, taking the controller with her, I am
left in the cold in the living room unless the wood stove is lit.

After a lot of years not quite understanding how best to run central
heating, I have, relatively recently, learnt to adjust mine properly,
leaving the hall radiator wide open and adjusting the heat in individual
rooms by use of the individual thermostats on their rads. The main
thermostat is fixed in the hall and is now, mostly, set to 18 while the
living room maintains 23 and the bedrooms are probably 16 (I've never
checked). It seems to me if you wander around with your main thermostat you
are defeating the object of the thing and quite possibly overheating areas
you don't need to be heating at all beyond keeping them frost free when not
in use. BIMBAM

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Mike

2020-02-29 15:22:39 UTC

Post by Penny
in the dust...

Post by Penny
in the dust...

I think I was offered something like that but if the only way of
controlling the heating is by using another, mobile, device which may not
be working or findable when you need it did not appeal.

Ah yes, d#1 has such a mobile controller. They have (for some reason I
don't understand) much insulation between floors in their house.
Consequently, when she goes to bed, taking the controller with her, I am
left in the cold in the living room unless the wood stove is lit.
After a lot of years not quite understanding how best to run central
heating, I have, relatively recently, learnt to adjust mine properly,
leaving the hall radiator wide open and adjusting the heat in individual
rooms by use of the individual thermostats on their rads. The main
thermostat is fixed in the hall and is now, mostly, set to 18 while the
living room maintains 23 and the bedrooms are probably 16 (I've never
checked). It seems to me if you wander around with your main thermostat you
are defeating the object of the thing and quite possibly overheating areas
you don't need to be heating at all beyond keeping them frost free when not
in use. BIMBAM

We now have the intelligent thermostatic radiator valves (Hive again) and
each has its’ own individual programming functions so we adjust individual
rooms for temperatures at various different times.

--
Toodle Pip

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-02-29 16:45:41 UTC

[]

Post by Penny
Ah yes, d#1 has such a mobile controller. They have (for some reason I
don't understand) much insulation between floors in their house.

Presumably, the thinking is - why heat both floors when you're only in
one? Obviously, this works better for some people than others (depending
how often you/they go up and down stairs), especially if your only loo
is on the cold floor.
[]

Post by Penny
After a lot of years not quite understanding how best to run central
heating, I have, relatively recently, learnt to adjust mine properly,
leaving the hall radiator wide open and adjusting the heat in individual
rooms by use of the individual thermostats on their rads. The main
thermostat is fixed in the hall and is now, mostly, set to 18 while the

If you have individual thermostats, then you probably don't need a
master one; they'll fight. It sounds like your system - like, I think,
most - will operate the boiler based on the master thermostat; if that's
not being heated, there won't be hot water in the system to drive the
other radiators (which can't demand _more_ hot water, only limit it to
_less_ - only the master 'stat can demand more [light up the boiler]).
With the result that you have to keep the hall hot to be sure the rest
works. You probably _could_ use the hall radiator's thermostat, if you
set the wall one to above what you want anywhere, to ensure the _boiler_
is always heating the water in the system. (That _might_ use more gas
though, unless - as I'd hope - it shuts off when no water is flowing.
[Some systems need at least one radiator somewhere that doesn't _have_
an individual control valve, thermostatic or otherwise, to ensure there
is always some water circulating, so the boiler doesn't blow up.])

Post by Penny
living room maintains 23 and the bedrooms are probably 16 (I've never
checked). It seems to me if you wander around with your main thermostat you
are defeating the object of the thing and quite possibly overheating areas
you don't need to be heating at all beyond keeping them frost free when not
in use. BIMBAM

Depends entirely on how much moving you do (and to some extent how fast
your individual areas heat - and cool). If you wander around a lot
carrying your main 'stat, then you'll cause the whole house to be
heated; conversely if you don't, you'll only heat the room(s) you're in,
thus saving. Depends a lot on how many sensors you have, too: if the
only control and sensor is in your pocket, then the whole house will be
heated to whatever extent is _needed_ to get where you are to what you
want.

Post by Mike
We now have the intelligent thermostatic radiator valves (Hive again) and
each has its’ own individual programming functions so we adjust individual
rooms for temperatures at various different times.

That sounds like the best solution. Provided the boiler is capable of
reacting fairly rapidly to changing demand, and has the capacity to heat
all the rooms to what you want them to be.

Presumably, this will come out in the wash when we're all-electric
heating anyway, as we're told we will have to be - there'll be
individual room heating and we'll do away with heating pipework. (We've
nowhere near the generating capacity to do that yet - not even for
transport, let alone heating. We need, as a nation, about the same
amount of energy for each: what we _currently_ use electricity for, for
heating, and for transport. Currently we mostly use gas for heating and
oil for transport. Moving it all to electricity is an interesting
proposition, and I anticipate unpopular enforcement [in both heating and
transport] if we're to meet the timescales being talked about.)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Bother," said Pooh, as he fell off the bridge with his stick.

Penny

2020-02-29 22:33:04 UTC

On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 16:45:41 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
If you have individual thermostats, then you probably don't need a
master one; they'll fight.

That's not how I understand it.
There is a skinny radiator in the hall where the stat it.
There are two hefty radiators in the living room which have thermostatic
valves.

I set the master stat to 18 and, as I said, the living room maintains a
temperature of about 23. The heating switches off at 10:30 in the morning
though on colder dull days I might turn it back on again. On the few sunny
days this winter - which tend also to be cold, I have run a
thermostatically controlled 1kw fan heater, which costs nothing when the
sun is shining.

Part of the key to this is keeping doors shut. I don't need to heat the
whole house when I'm spending much of my day sitting in the living room. On
the rare occasions I do any housework or other moving about activity
elsewhere in the house the temperature is adequate.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
It sounds like your system - like, I think,
most - will operate the boiler based on the master thermostat; if that's
not being heated, there won't be hot water in the system to drive the
other radiators (which can't demand _more_ hot water, only limit it to
_less_ - only the master 'stat can demand more [light up the boiler]).
With the result that you have to keep the hall hot to be sure the rest
works.

Nope, the hall is never hot, it doesn't need to be.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
You probably _could_ use the hall radiator's thermostat, if you
set the wall one to above what you want anywhere, to ensure the _boiler_
is always heating the water in the system. (That _might_ use more gas
though, unless - as I'd hope - it shuts off when no water is flowing.
[Some systems need at least one radiator somewhere that doesn't _have_
an individual control valve, thermostatic or otherwise, to ensure there
is always some water circulating, so the boiler doesn't blow up.])

How strange, my boiler and pump turns itself off and on as needed to
maintain the temperature set on the main stat. Isn't that what stats are
for?

Neither of the skinny little rads in the bedrooms has a thermostatic valve.
It doesn't get warm in the bedrooms in the winter (too damned hot in
summer) but is still much warmer than the bedrooms of my childhood. The
bathroom is warm though.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-01 02:11:01 UTC

Post by Penny
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 16:45:41 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
If you have individual thermostats, then you probably don't need a
master one; they'll fight.

I interpret that as meaning the hall never actually gets to 18, so the
boiler's on all the time (or there wouldn't _be_ any heated water for
the living room radiators).

Post by Penny
The heating switches off at 10:30 in the morning
though on colder dull days I might turn it back on again. On the few sunny
days this winter - which tend also to be cold, I have run a
thermostatically controlled 1kw fan heater, which costs nothing when the
sun is shining.

That's great. (You mean your solar panels produce over a kW. That's
great.)

Post by Penny
Part of the key to this is keeping doors shut. I don't need to heat the
whole house when I'm spending much of my day sitting in the living room. On
the rare occasions I do any housework or other moving about activity
elsewhere in the house the temperature is adequate.

Agreed.
[]

Post by Penny
Nope, the hall is never hot, it doesn't need to be.

[]

Post by Penny
How strange, my boiler and pump turns itself off and on as needed to
maintain the temperature set on the main stat. Isn't that what stats are
for?

Yes. Does it actually go off much though? I'd have thought that if it
did, there'd not be any heat to go into the living room radiators. (If
there is sufficient heat, where's it coming from? It can only be the
boiler, so I don't think it can be off much.)

Post by Penny
Neither of the skinny little rads in the bedrooms has a thermostatic valve.
It doesn't get warm in the bedrooms in the winter (too damned hot in
summer) but is still much warmer than the bedrooms of my childhood. The
bathroom is warm though.

I guess they're not up to the job of heating to the same level as
downstairs - which is fine if you _like_ them cooler. Yes, I too
remember freezing bedrooms (or dormitories) - ice on the insides ...

Bathroom: my parents' flat in Folkestone was a converted Victorian or
Edwardian hotel - huge high ceilings. They had CH put in (197x I think),
which _was_ up to the job (though expensive!). Somewhat later, they had
false lower ceilings put in in the hall and bathroom (but left the
radiators as they were) - this meant that the hall and bathroom could
now be toasty!

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

That's how he [Dr. Who] seems to me. He's always been someone who gets the
/Guardian/. There are some parts of the universe where it's harder to get hold
of. - Peter Capaldi (current incumbent Doctor), RT 2016/11/26-12/2

Chris J Dixon

2020-03-01 08:45:00 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Yes. Does it actually go off much though? I'd have thought that if it
did, there'd not be any heat to go into the living room radiators. (If
there is sufficient heat, where's it coming from? It can only be the
boiler, so I don't think it can be off much.)

I guess they're not up to the job of heating to the same level as
downstairs - which is fine if you _like_ them cooler.

An additional complication is that heating systems should be
balanced - the flow is adjusted using the lockshield valve,
fitted at the opposite end to the TRV.

By means of this the relative flow can be arranged so that, in
this case the hall radiator can be throttled so that it is
unlikely to spend much time reaching the set point, and the
bedrooms are set up, both by size and flow, for less heating.

AIUI, one big change for more sophisticated systems like Hive is
that any individual radiator can generate a "call for heat"
signal to turn on the boiler.

I have a simple programmable hall thermostat, but it does have
quite sophisticated abilities - it limits the on/off switching to
prevent "short cycling", for greater efficiency, and also
attempts to learn how long the house takes to warm up, so that it
reaches the set temperature at just the right time, though I am
less convinced that it does this well.

I also have a couple of wireless thermostatic valve controllers
which enable an individual room to have its own remote
temperature control (1). This enables the south-facing dining
room to shut off accurately when it is being warmed by the sun,
and the lounge not to waste heat when it is empty during the day,
or is being warmed by the gas fire.

I am not convinced that any valve mounted on a radiator can
control room temperature accurately without remote temperature
monitoring.

(1) So long as the boiler provides the hot water.

Chris

--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.

Kate B

2020-03-01 12:09:14 UTC

I guess they're not up to the job of heating to the same level as
downstairs - which is fine if you _like_ them cooler.

An additional complication is that heating systems should be
balanced - the flow is adjusted using the lockshield valve,
fitted at the opposite end to the TRV.
By means of this the relative flow can be arranged so that, in
this case the hall radiator can be throttled so that it is
unlikely to spend much time reaching the set point, and the
bedrooms are set up, both by size and flow, for less heating.
AIUI, one big change for more sophisticated systems like Hive is
that any individual radiator can generate a "call for heat"
signal to turn on the boiler.
I have a simple programmable hall thermostat, but it does have
quite sophisticated abilities - it limits the on/off switching to
prevent "short cycling", for greater efficiency, and also
attempts to learn how long the house takes to warm up, so that it
reaches the set temperature at just the right time, though I am
less convinced that it does this well.
I also have a couple of wireless thermostatic valve controllers
which enable an individual room to have its own remote
temperature control (1). This enables the south-facing dining
room to shut off accurately when it is being warmed by the sun,
and the lounge not to waste heat when it is empty during the day,
or is being warmed by the gas fire.
I am not convinced that any valve mounted on a radiator can
control room temperature accurately without remote temperature
monitoring.
(1) So long as the boiler provides the hot water.

ooh, are we now in the realms of compensated flow? My engineer husband
(started off designing refineries...) installed a magnificent system for
heating our tall thin draughty Edwardian house, involving two
30-year-old boilers (still going strong) a three-way valve, various
pumps, indoor and outdoor sensors, and a controller with a brain the
size of a planet and the interface of a 90's mobile phone (ie lots of
sub-sub-sub menus).

Mostly it works like a dream, keeping the core of the house at a
rock-steady 21 between getting up and going to bed, which means most
rooms are around 20 which is fine. All the radiators have thermostatic
valves which are fully open, or closed in the rooms we're not using at
the moment like the spare room.

What it doesn't like are temperatures around 15C outside, which upset
the compensated flow or something. It accumulates errors and after a bit
throws a hissy fit and returns everything to Jan 1 2000. This is
annoying but we are very adept at resetting and then it is happy for
another few months.

We did consider a moddun system but it would mean repiping, rewiring,
new boilers, and even more electronics to go wrong. So we stick with the
Fat Controller.

--
Kate B
London

krw

2020-03-01 15:45:54 UTC

involving two 30-year-old boilers (still going strong)

A little surprised they have not been condemned for some reason.

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

Kate B

2020-03-01 23:15:37 UTC

involving two 30-year-old boilers (still going strong)

A little surprised they have not been condemned for some reason.

Oh, some have tried! But we found an older, better, and more informed
heating engineer who found the right bit of kit to service them and
they're good for another few years yet.

--
Kate B
London

Chris J Dixon

2020-03-02 09:23:17 UTC

Post by Kate B
Oh, some have tried! But we found an older, better, and more informed
heating engineer who found the right bit of kit to service them and
they're good for another few years yet.

My Worcester Bosch system boiler was installed nearly 16 years
ago.

Just out of its 2 year warranty the PCB failed, and it cost me
about the same as half a year's gas.

No further work or, to temp fate, problems so far.

I was always a little afraid that the cost of a supposedly
mandatory annual service and/or early failure of a more
complicated piece of kit, could easily exceed the value of energy
saving.

Chris

--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-02 12:12:08 UTC

Post by Kate B
Oh, some have tried! But we found an older, better, and more informed
heating engineer who found the right bit of kit to service them and
they're good for another few years yet.

My Worcester Bosch system boiler was installed nearly 16 years
ago.
Just out of its 2 year warranty the PCB failed, and it cost me
about the same as half a year's gas.
No further work or, to temp fate, problems so far.
I was always a little afraid that the cost of a supposedly
mandatory annual service and/or early failure of a more
complicated piece of kit, could easily exceed the value of energy
saving.
Chris

I'm more concerned by the ability to "condemn". I'm not sure if gas
engineers have the power to enforce disconnection (or at least isolation
of the device), but I fear it's there. It already is, for practical
purposes, for MoT on cars (and other vehicles for that matter): much if
not all of the equipment now in use for those tests is permanently
online, so as soon as your car fails, this is known to Big Brother, and
in some cases this means you immediately can't use it at least in
theory.

I'm not saying that dangerous cars - or gas installations - should be
allowed to remain in use, but {at worst} the opportunity for what is in
effect blackmail (by the garage) is there, and {somewhere in the middle}
is the _tendency_ on the part of the testers to err on the side of
safety (if only because of fear _they_ will get into trouble if they
don't). Where, often, a "fail" can be avoided with knowledge of the
quirks of the particular model of boiler or car, or the test involved
(such as don't do it, or only do it, when the car/boiler is cold/warm -
unless the test specifically mandates that).

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If you're on [Radio] 5Live you get people writing in saying that you've got
your football facts wrong, but on Radio 4 they pull you up on your Portuguese
pronunciation. Nick Robinson, RT 2016/6/25-7/1

krw

2020-03-02 13:06:33 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I'm more concerned by the ability to "condemn". I'm not sure if gas
engineers have the power to enforce disconnection (or at least isolation
of the device), but I fear it's there.

It has happened twice to us.

The first time was on a boiler which was probably 20+ years old (and
inefficient by modern standards). The second time was on a boiler about
8 years old where allegedly the parts were no longer available.

The second time was particularly annoying.

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

Flop

2020-03-02 13:39:08 UTC

It has happened twice to us.
The first time was on a boiler which was probably 20+ years old (and
inefficient by modern standards). The second time was on a boiler about
8 years old where allegedly the parts were no longer available.
The second time was particularly annoying.

Had a similar experience.

The gas engineers explained that they could only sign off a gas device
if it was compatible with *current* gas regulations.

The 20+ boiler was not deemed compatible and was turned off and taped.

As he was leaving the engineer did comment that the boiler was perfectly
safe and not to remove the tape or restart until his van was out of sight!

--
Flop

Truly the Good Lord gave us computers that we might learn patience

Penny

2020-03-02 15:04:19 UTC

On Mon, 2 Mar 2020 13:39:08 +0000, Flop <***@flop.knot.me.uk> scrawled in
the dust...

Post by Flop

It has happened twice to us.
The first time was on a boiler which was probably 20+ years old (and
inefficient by modern standards). The second time was on a boiler about
8 years old where allegedly the parts were no longer available.
The second time was particularly annoying.

Had a similar experience.
The gas engineers explained that they could only sign off a gas device
if it was compatible with *current* gas regulations.
The 20+ boiler was not deemed compatible and was turned off and taped.
As he was leaving the engineer did comment that the boiler was perfectly
safe and not to remove the tape or restart until his van was out of sight!

The rules change all the time. Over the years various minor things were
done so the engineer didn't have to condemn my boiler, including kicking
out the middle, holey bit of an air brick and covering it wit a louvered
plate. The final straw was a new rule which insisted flue pipes should be
straight - the boiler was connected to the original flue which went up
through the roof from the previous boiler's position on the first floor.
Because of the cat-slide roof over the current boiler's position
downstairs, there were two 45 degree bends in the flue which were no longer
allowed so it was condemned. I ended up with a boiler with a flue which
blew directly into the garden - a migraine trigger for me :(

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Mike

2020-03-02 15:05:00 UTC

Post by Flop

It has happened twice to us.
The first time was on a boiler which was probably 20+ years old (and
inefficient by modern standards). The second time was on a boiler about
8 years old where allegedly the parts were no longer available.
The second time was particularly annoying.

Had a similar experience.
The gas engineers explained that they could only sign off a gas device
if it was compatible with *current* gas regulations.
The 20+ boiler was not deemed compatible and was turned off and taped.
As he was leaving the engineer did comment that the boiler was perfectly
safe and not to remove the tape or restart until his van was out of sight!

Our boiler received its’ first annual service after it had been in place
about 13-14 months; BG supplied, fitted and carried the system and carried
out the annual service - by which time the installation was no longer
compatible with the new regs as the angle on the flue pipe no longer
complied..... annotations go on the service sheet annually about this.

--
Toodle Pip

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-02 15:30:56 UTC

[]

Post by Flop
The gas engineers explained that they could only sign off a gas device
if it was compatible with *current* gas regulations.
The 20+ boiler was not deemed compatible and was turned off and taped.
As he was leaving the engineer did comment that the boiler was perfectly
safe and not to remove the tape or restart until his van was out of sight!

That's what was confusing me about what Flop said; I didn't think they
had to _condemn_ it if it didn't pass regulations made after it was
istalled, but they had to draw your attention to the new "failure" - and
it couldn't be _replaced_ with one that continued not to comply.

Like cars made before a certain date don't have to have seatbelts. [But
the wicks in the headlights have to be in good condition (-:.] That's
not _quite_ the same, as retrofitting seatbelts, though not compulsory,
is practical, whereas boiler remediation may not be.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"You _are_ Zaphod Beeblebrox? _The_ Zaphod Beeblebrox?"
"No, just _a_ Zaphod Beeblebrox. I come in six-packs." (from the link episode)

Kate B

2020-03-02 16:36:51 UTC

That's what was confusing me about what Flop said; I didn't think they
had to _condemn_ it if it didn't pass regulations made after it was
istalled, but they had to draw your attention to the new "failure" - and
it couldn't be _replaced_ with one that continued not to comply.
Like cars made before a certain date don't have to have seatbelts. [But
the wicks in the headlights have to be in good condition (-:.] That's
not _quite_ the same, as retrofitting seatbelts, though not compulsory,
is practical, whereas boiler remediation may not be.

In our case the only thing wrong with the boiler was that a piece of
insulating fireproof glassfibre twisted cord, which stopped any fumes
getting out into the boiler room (which is a very draughty
garage/workshop), had perished. Perfectly good identical cord is still
freely available to buy but the very jobsworth heating engineer who
discovered the problem could not find it on the list of official spares
for the boiler manufacturer, and therefore declared the whole system was
condemned and her* boss would be round within the hour to discuss a
replacement. He arrived and sucked his teeth and said he could do us
something for £8000 if we signed up today, otherwise he was going to
Inform The Authorities that we had an illegal system. He turned off the
gas and left.

Meanwhile the Resident Engineer had done his own researches and found
another heating chap of more venerable pedigree and considerably more
nous, who came in shortly after the others had left and replaced the
cord (cost of cord about a fiver) without problem, reconnected us, did
all the tests, and declared us legal after all. We asked what about The
Authorities, and he replied that this was total eyewash. There is no
central register of boilers. We may possibly be on a manufacturer's list
but there is no reason - given that the boilers are now working legally
- that this should ever be a problem.

PS * yes, a woman. We were delighted when she arrived, but she turned
out to be terrible.

--
Kate B
London

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-02 17:42:14 UTC

On Mon, 2 Mar 2020 at 16:36:51, Kate B <***@nospam.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
[]

Post by Kate B
In our case the only thing wrong with the boiler was that a piece of
insulating fireproof glassfibre twisted cord, which stopped any fumes
getting out into the boiler room (which is a very draughty
garage/workshop), had perished. Perfectly good identical cord is still
freely available to buy but the very jobsworth heating engineer who
discovered the problem could not find it on the list of official spares
for the boiler manufacturer, and therefore declared the whole system
was condemned and her* boss would be round within the hour to discuss a
replacement. He arrived and sucked his teeth and said he could do us
something for £8000 if we signed up today, otherwise he was going to
Inform The Authorities that we had an illegal system. He turned off the
gas and left.

That is exactly the sort of Blackmail - I don't think there's any way
round that description - that I had in mind.

Post by Kate B
Meanwhile the Resident Engineer had done his own researches and found
another heating chap of more venerable pedigree and considerably more
nous, who came in shortly after the others had left and replaced the
cord (cost of cord about a fiver) without problem, reconnected us, did
all the tests, and declared us legal after all. We asked what about The

Excellent!

Post by Kate B
Authorities, and he replied that this was total eyewash. There is no
central register of boilers. We may possibly be on a manufacturer's
list but there is no reason - given that the boilers are now working
legally - that this should ever be a problem.

Hmm. Yes, there may be no such actual register, but I bet "the
authorities" - or, at least, some jobsworth (especially if a mate of the
blackmailer) - would feel obliged to follow up any report.

Post by Kate B
PS * yes, a woman. We were delighted when she arrived, but she turned
out to be terrible.

Interesting. I'd probably be delighted too.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Back then, many radio sets were still in black and white. - Eddie Mair, radio
presenter, on "PM" programme reaching 40; in Radio Times, 3-9 April 2010

steve hague

2020-03-03 08:25:09 UTC

That's what was confusing me about what Flop said; I didn't think they
had to _condemn_ it if it didn't pass regulations made after it was
istalled, but they had to draw your attention to the new "failure" -
and it couldn't be _replaced_ with one that continued not to comply.
Like cars made before a certain date don't have to have seatbelts.
[But the wicks in the headlights have to be in good condition (-:.]
That's not _quite_ the same, as retrofitting seatbelts, though not
compulsory, is practical, whereas boiler remediation may not be.

In our case the only thing wrong with the boiler was that a piece of
insulating fireproof glassfibre twisted cord, which stopped any fumes
getting out into the boiler room (which is a very draughty
garage/workshop), had perished. Perfectly good identical cord is still
freely available to buy but the very jobsworth heating engineer who
discovered the problem could not find it on the list of official spares
for the boiler manufacturer, and therefore declared the whole system was
condemned and her* boss would be round within the hour to discuss a
replacement. He arrived and sucked his teeth and said he could do us
something for £8000 if we signed up today, otherwise he was going to
Inform The Authorities that we had an illegal system. He turned off the
gas and left.
Meanwhile the Resident Engineer had done his own researches and found
another heating chap of more venerable pedigree and considerably more
nous, who came in shortly after the others had left and replaced the
cord (cost of cord about a fiver) without problem, reconnected us, did
all the tests, and declared us legal after all. We asked what about The
Authorities, and he replied that this was total eyewash. There is no
central register of boilers. We may possibly be on a manufacturer's list
but there is no reason - given that the boilers are now working legally
- that this should ever be a problem.
PS * yes, a woman. We were delighted when she arrived, but she turned
out to be terrible.

Something similar happened with us. We had a very slow leak from our
boiler tank, but we had an extended warranty with a well known national
company who sent along an engineer who blamed the leak on corrosion and
said we would need a new system. The company terminated our contract and
gave us £500 towards a new system. In the meantime a friend recommended
a local plumber who took about two minutes to spot that the leak was
where the immersion heater (unused) entered the tank. A new immersion
heater sorted it. Total cost including labour £54.
Steve

Mike

2020-03-03 08:49:04 UTC

Post by steve hague
Something similar happened with us. We had a very slow leak from our
boiler tank, but we had an extended warranty with a well known national
company who sent along an engineer who blamed the leak on corrosion and
said we would need a new system. The company terminated our contract and
gave us £500 towards a new system. In the meantime a friend recommended
a local plumber who took about two minutes to spot that the leak was
where the immersion heater (unused) entered the tank. A new immersion
heater sorted it. Total cost including labour £54.
Steve

In November, we had a problem with our system whereby the system would shut
down completely and required the boiler case to be removed for a reset via
an internal button. Various engineers told us this ‘fault 5’ was due to an
overheating problem, anyway, each engineer in turn had their own theories
as to the cause. Over numerous engineer’s visits and days of unheated
Toodle Towers, we had a new hot water tank and immersion heater, 2
flushings of the radiator pipework, a new heat exchanger, combustion
chamber cover plate & seals, ferrous material collector tank and valves,
flue fittings, three heat sensor cutout units, and numerous sundries - plus
the loan of an electric fan heater (which we still have here) by the last
(successful) engineer who tracked down the problem by the middle of
December.

--
Toodle Pip

Mike

2020-03-03 08:51:58 UTC

Oh yes, and a new (much quieter and more efficient) water pump.
Good job all the work was covered by our homecare contract.

--
Toodle Pip

Chris J Dixon

2020-03-03 09:32:11 UTC

Post by Mike
In November, we had a problem with our system whereby the system would shut
down completely and required the boiler case to be removed for a reset via
an internal button.
the last
(successful) engineer who tracked down the problem by the middle of
December.

Which was?

Chris

--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.

Mike

2020-03-03 09:51:19 UTC

Which was?
Chris

We think it was some scale buildup on the internal fins of the heat
exchanger; this should not happen and as we used softened water and the
circulating water contains inhibitor plus we have the filters and the
system is pressurised, we can only assume that air was being sucked in
somehow and the old pump was not able to push it to the air extraction
points of which there are two in the system. The joints on the heat
exchanger may also have been a contributory factor as deposits were noted
on the joins.

Well you did ask!

--
Toodle Pip

krw

2020-03-03 10:13:57 UTC

Post by Mike
In November, we had a problem with our system whereby the system would shut
down completely and required the boiler case to be removed for a reset via
an internal button.

We returned from Cuba on a Friday just over a week ago and on Saturday
whilst I was out the central heating stopped working after a "bang" from
the cupboard containing the boiler. As we were out on most of Saturday
and Sunday and we had a plumber coming on Monday to replace the pump
anyway we did nothing.

On Monday the plumber came, replaced the pump and turned it all on again
at which point the fuse blew. The conclusion was reached that the
timerswitch had probably failed and would need replacing. Went online
and ordered a replacement which came on Tuesday.

Took the old switch off and looked at it - unlike the previous time it
failed it did not appear to be burnt out - but who knows. Plugged in
the new one, set the times and turned on the central heating etc. Fuses
blew.

Ah ha. Not the timer switch. Contact plumber. Ask when they can come
back given that we had had no heating now for four days and the house
was not very warm.

On Wednesday the plumber came. He tested everything blowing either
fuses or tripping entire circuits at the main switch which meant the
computer turned off. (And that is not a happy bunny either at present).
He tests everything and cannot find a problem. After some hours he
finds a loose wire hanging down out of sight with three bare wires one
of which may well have been touching something and short-circuiting.
There is no explanation as to why there should be such a loose wire.

Wire removed and suddenly no short circuits and everything is fine.
That wire must have been there three years since the boiler was changed
and about 12 if it goes back to when the boiler was put in!

Could have been very nasty.

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

Mike Headon

2020-03-03 11:29:16 UTC

That's what was confusing me about what Flop said; I didn't think
they had to _condemn_ it if it didn't pass regulations made after it
was istalled, but they had to draw your attention to the new
"failure" - and it couldn't be _replaced_ with one that continued not
to comply.
Like cars made before a certain date don't have to have seatbelts.
[But the wicks in the headlights have to be in good condition (-:.]
That's not _quite_ the same, as retrofitting seatbelts, though not
compulsory, is practical, whereas boiler remediation may not be.

In our case the only thing wrong with the boiler was that a piece of
insulating fireproof glassfibre twisted cord, which stopped any fumes
getting out into the boiler room (which is a very draughty
garage/workshop), had perished. Perfectly good identical cord is still
freely available to buy but the very jobsworth heating engineer who
discovered the problem could not find it on the list of official
spares for the boiler manufacturer, and therefore declared the whole
system was condemned and her* boss would be round within the hour to
discuss a replacement. He arrived and sucked his teeth and said he
could do us something for £8000 if we signed up today, otherwise he
was going to Inform The Authorities that we had an illegal system. He
turned off the gas and left.
Meanwhile the Resident Engineer had done his own researches and found
another heating chap of more venerable pedigree and considerably more
nous, who came in shortly after the others had left and replaced the
cord (cost of cord about a fiver) without problem, reconnected us, did
all the tests, and declared us legal after all. We asked what about
The Authorities, and he replied that this was total eyewash. There is
no central register of boilers. We may possibly be on a manufacturer's
list but there is no reason - given that the boilers are now working
legally - that this should ever be a problem.
PS * yes, a woman. We were delighted when she arrived, but she turned
out to be terrible.

Our gas expert has been telling us for 20 years now that our chimney is
not tall enough!

--
Mike Headon
R69S R850R
IIIc IIIg FT FTn FT2 EOS450D
e-mail: mike dot headon at enn tee ell world dot com
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Sid Nuncius

2020-03-03 08:05:32 UTC

Post by Flop

It has happened twice to us.
The first time was on a boiler which was probably 20+ years old (and
inefficient by modern standards). The second time was on a boiler
about 8 years old where allegedly the parts were no longer available.
The second time was particularly annoying.

Had a similar experience.
The gas engineers explained that they could only sign off a gas device
if it was compatible with *current* gas regulations.
The 20+ boiler was not deemed compatible and was turned off and taped.
As he was leaving the engineer did comment that the boiler was perfectly
safe and not to remove the tape or restart until his van was out of sight!

Our boiler is over 30 years old and nearing the end of its life.
However, we have Rob The Wonderplumber whose attitude is that "she's a
good old girl" and who has kept "her" going safely for us when other
engineers may well have condemned. The boiler will finally have to be
replaced this summer, but I'm very grateful to Rob for seeing us through
times when the work (which will involve quite a lot of other work to
pipes etc throughout Nuncius Towers) would have been very, very
difficult with other things going on in our lives.

--
Sid (Make sure Matron is away when you reply)

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-03 12:48:12 UTC

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 08:05:32, Sid Nuncius
<***@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
[]

Post by Sid Nuncius
Our boiler is over 30 years old and nearing the end of its life.
However, we have Rob The Wonderplumber whose attitude is that "she's a
good old girl" and who has kept "her" going safely for us when other
engineers may well have condemned. The boiler will finally have to be

Older ones - like Victorian engineering - tended to be more overdesigned
- not deliberately so, they've just got "better" at designing out the
extra material over the years.

Post by Sid Nuncius
replaced this summer, but I'm very grateful to Rob for seeing us

Why does it have to be replaced?

Post by Sid Nuncius
through times when the work (which will involve quite a lot of other
work to pipes etc throughout Nuncius Towers) would have been very, very
difficult with other things going on in our lives.

The main thing that is _really_ difficult to replace is plumbers (and
other such) like Rob, who know how to do things from first principles -
and also know the _purpose behind_ lots of the regulations, and apply
common sense to their interpretation. (I don't mean they get round them
by unsafe practices - just that they're more willing to _think_ about
what's involved, and not just replace things as a reflex action
[sometimes also triggered in the more-recently-trained by fear of
litigation/blame].)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. And I'm not getting out
of the kitchen for a long time yet. - Petula Clark (at 83), RT 2016/10/22-28

Kate B

2020-03-03 14:09:48 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 08:05:32, Sid Nuncius
[]

Older ones - like Victorian engineering - tended to be more overdesigned
- not deliberately so, they've just got "better" at designing out the
extra material over the years.

Erm, I think you surely mean the opposite in this case? Our boilers (not
quite Victorian, though at least 30 years old) are incredibly simple.
Everything is accessible and all the moving parts are mechanical and
replaceable (if you know the right engineer, obvs). All the sensors and
suchlike electronics are outside the boiler assembly.

--
Kate B
London

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-03 14:52:31 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 08:05:32, Sid Nuncius
[]

Post by Sid Nuncius
Our boiler is over 30 years old and nearing the end of its life.
However, we have Rob The Wonderplumber whose attitude is that "she's
a good old girl" and who has kept "her" going safely for us when
other engineers may well have condemned. The boiler will finally have to be

Older ones - like Victorian engineering - tended to be more
overdesigned - not deliberately so, they've just got "better" at
designing out the extra material over the years.

Erm, I think you surely mean the opposite in this case? Our boilers
(not quite Victorian, though at least 30 years old) are incredibly
simple. Everything is accessible and all the moving parts are
mechanical and replaceable (if you know the right engineer, obvs). All
the sensors and suchlike electronics are outside the boiler assembly.

I was thinking of castings and the like: older ones tend to be made with
such, whereas modern ones more bent out of sheet, which (if you're
making enough to justify the bending machines) is cheaper as it uses
less material, and doesn't require special casting. Of course, my
feeling is that ones bent out of sheet don't last as long as castings.
You're also right about old ones being more accessible.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If a cluttered desk is characteristic of a cluttered mind, what does an empty
desk mean ?

Chris J Dixon

2020-03-02 09:07:02 UTC

Post by Kate B
ooh, are we now in the realms of compensated flow? My engineer husband
(started off designing refineries...) installed a magnificent system for
heating our tall thin draughty Edwardian house, involving two
30-year-old boilers (still going strong) a three-way valve, various
pumps, indoor and outdoor sensors, and a controller with a brain the
size of a planet

We are not worthy! That sounds amazing.

Chris

--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-01 12:44:13 UTC

On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 at 08:45:00, Chris J Dixon <***@cdixon.me.uk>
wrote:
[]

Post by Chris J Dixon
I am not convinced that any valve mounted on a radiator can
control room temperature accurately without remote temperature
monitoring.

Nora mi. I consider those to be a con, bordering on false advertising -
I've never seen any explanation of how they're _supposed_ to work.
[]

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Get off my turf!" screamed Pooh, as he shot at Paddington.

Penny

2020-03-01 13:56:28 UTC

On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 12:44:13 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by Chris J Dixon
I am not convinced that any valve mounted on a radiator can
control room temperature accurately without remote temperature
monitoring.

Nora mi. I consider those to be a con, bordering on false advertising -
I've never seen any explanation of how they're _supposed_ to work.

I don't think any claim that, do they? They do adjust the flow.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-01 16:10:05 UTC

Post by Penny
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 12:44:13 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by Chris J Dixon
I am not convinced that any valve mounted on a radiator can
control room temperature accurately without remote temperature
monitoring.

Nora mi. I consider those to be a con, bordering on false advertising -
I've never seen any explanation of how they're _supposed_ to work.

I don't think any claim that, do they? They do adjust the flow.

I can do that with a normal (non-thermostatic) radiator valve. I'm not
denying that these ones _do_ change it by themselves, but I'm not really
sure what they're claiming to actually _do_. (Which I think was CJD's
point, too.)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If it's not on fire, it's a software problem.

Penny

2020-03-01 16:25:00 UTC

On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:10:05 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by Penny
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 12:44:13 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by Chris J Dixon
I am not convinced that any valve mounted on a radiator can
control room temperature accurately without remote temperature
monitoring.

Nora mi. I consider those to be a con, bordering on false advertising -
I've never seen any explanation of how they're _supposed_ to work.

I don't think any claim that, do they? They do adjust the flow.

We had one on the highest rad in the system in my old house. It would get
stuck in a nearly closed position and cause loud hammering all round the
house until I took the top off and hit the pin with a hammer. I suppose
there must have been air in the system but bleeding it didn't help.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

steve hague

2020-03-03 11:31:01 UTC

Post by Penny
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:10:05 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by Penny
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 12:44:13 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by Chris J Dixon
I am not convinced that any valve mounted on a radiator can
control room temperature accurately without remote temperature
monitoring.

Nora mi. I consider those to be a con, bordering on false advertising -
I've never seen any explanation of how they're _supposed_ to work.

I don't think any claim that, do they? They do adjust the flow.

You are The Mighty Thor, AICM£5.
Steve

Rosemary Miskin

2020-03-01 11:07:11 UTC

. Yes, I too remember freezing bedrooms (or dormitories) - ice on the insides

and toothpaste freezing on the window-ledge - 1960's Cambridge!

Rosemary

Vicky Ayech

2020-03-01 11:51:14 UTC

On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 03:07:11 -0800 (PST), Rosemary Miskin

Post by Rosemary Miskin

. Yes, I too remember freezing bedrooms (or dormitories) - ice on the insides

and toothpaste freezing on the window-ledge - 1960's Cambridge!
Rosemary

Digs in 1960s Sheffield: Shared bedroom and we put all our clothes
from wardrobe onto the bed on top of the covers to keep warm. That was
the first year. By Third year, rented flat, we bought a parafin
heater. But actually Southern Spain was cold inwinter. Teeshirt out
in the sun at midday but the flats were not deesigned to keep warm.
The A/C did reverse and heat but was expensive and inadequate so we
got heaters there too.

Penny

2020-03-01 13:59:57 UTC

On Sun, 01 Mar 2020 11:51:14 +0000, Vicky Ayech <***@gmail.com>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Vicky Ayech
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 03:07:11 -0800 (PST), Rosemary Miskin

Post by Rosemary Miskin

. Yes, I too remember freezing bedrooms (or dormitories) - ice on the insides

and toothpaste freezing on the window-ledge - 1960's Cambridge!
Rosemary

Digs in 1960s Sheffield: Shared bedroom and we put all our clothes
from wardrobe onto the bed on top of the covers to keep warm. That was
the first year.

Living in digs in Hemel Hempstead when I started my first job, I used to
sleep with the clothes I planned to wear next day under the sheet I was
sleeping on so they were warm to put on in the morning.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-01 12:46:34 UTC

Post by Rosemary Miskin

. Yes, I too remember freezing bedrooms (or dormitories) - ice on the insides

and toothpaste freezing on the window-ledge - 1960's Cambridge!
Rosemary

That has the same feel as "Chestnuts roasting on an open fire", though
the opposite effect!

[I think the latter was one of the lines in that "My Word" book that I
and others have, but I can't think what the contrived version was.]

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Get off my turf!" screamed Pooh, as he shot at Paddington.

Min

2020-03-01 22:17:54 UTC

On Sunday, 1 March 2020 12:48:18 UTC, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
he opposite effect!

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[I think the latter was one of the lines in that "My Word" book that I
and others have, but I can't think what the contrived version was.]

AFAIK, not "My Word" but I know a punchline of "Chess Nuts Boasting
Round an Open Foyer..."

--
Min

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-01 23:02:27 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
he opposite effect!

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[I think the latter was one of the lines in that "My Word" book that I
and others have, but I can't think what the contrived version was.]

AFAIK, not "My Word" but I know a punchline of "Chess Nuts Boasting
Round an Open Foyer..."

That's the one!

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The early worm gets the bird.

Penny

2020-03-01 13:43:13 UTC

On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 02:11:01 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by Penny
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 16:45:41 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
If you have individual thermostats, then you probably don't need a
master one; they'll fight.

I interpret that as meaning the hall never actually gets to 18, so the
boiler's on all the time (or there wouldn't _be_ any heated water for
the living room radiators).

Well that's not true. This is a well insulated house on a south-facing
hillside. Once heated to the temperature I've asked for, it takes a while
to cool down. By the time I notice it is getting chilly the boiler kicks
back in.

I don't know if it's relevant but it is a micro bore system, the bore of
the pipes varies depending how far they are from the heat source. My
previous heating engineer was very scathing about it until he'd worked on
it a bit. He told me now he understands it he can see it is a good system.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]
Yes. Does it actually go off much though? I'd have thought that if it
did, there'd not be any heat to go into the living room radiators. (If
there is sufficient heat, where's it coming from? It can only be the
boiler, so I don't think it can be off much.)

Today partly from the sun. I have got the heating on though. Today's
problem is a dodgy socket circuit which, after consulting various people
including a qualified sparks, needs professional attention - a job for
tomorrow. Meanwhile I was pleased to find the heating works and, having
switched off the problem circuit have been running extensions from working
sockets to feed the fridge/freezer and other stuff I want to use in the
room I usually use them in.

During this activity I have proved to my own dissatisfaction that the very
cheap, very high dose vit D I bought may contain some vit D but not nearly
as much as they claim.

Now to decide if ICanBA to tell Poundstretcher they are selling lies.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Kate B

2020-03-01 15:35:21 UTC

Post by Penny
During this activity I have proved to my own dissatisfaction that the very
cheap, very high dose vit D I bought may contain some vit D but not nearly
as much as they claim.
Now to decide if ICanBA to tell Poundstretcher they are selling lies.

How did you find this out? Was it in very very small print or have you
been conducting interesting experiments?

--
Kate B
London

Penny

2020-03-01 16:16:16 UTC

On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 15:35:21 +0000, Kate B <***@nospam.demon.co.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

How did you find this out? Was it in very very small print or have you
been conducting interesting experiments?

Very boring (and painful) experiment of bending down to unplug lots of
appliances and taping extension leads to the carpet due to the electrical
problem.

I take the vit D because otherwise I don't take up enough calcium and get
very painful cramps, mostly just below my ribs. I used to take calcium tabs
which helped a bit, probably because of the vit D they contain. Since
learning more about vit D deficiency I just take fairly high dose vit D
which works better and I am usually cramp-free whatever I'm doing.

After three days of taking, apparently, twice my usual daily dose I've been
crippled by cramp several times today :(

I suppose it could just be I've not been gardening much (often involves
bending) in all the bad weather so I should do some further tests.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-01 16:26:36 UTC

On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 at 16:16:16, Penny <***@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
[]

Post by Penny
After three days of taking, apparently, twice my usual daily dose I've been
crippled by cramp several times today :(

[]
I rather fear Poundland won't accept that as proof, even if you can find
an English speaker (or rather, if their English speaker will come out to
speak to a customer).

But I'd like to be wrong.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If it's not on fire, it's a software problem.

Penny

2020-03-01 19:06:10 UTC

On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:26:36 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by Penny
After three days of taking, apparently, twice my usual daily dose I've been
crippled by cramp several times today :(

[]
I rather fear Poundland won't accept that as proof, even if you can find
an English speaker (or rather, if their English speaker will come out to
speak to a customer).
But I'd like to be wrong.

We don't have a Poundland. Most but probably not all staff in
Poundstretcher are Welsh but they all speak English. If I can be bothered
I'll be contacting head office and Trading Standards, not the store.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-01 19:45:20 UTC

Post by Penny
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:26:36 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by Penny
After three days of taking, apparently, twice my usual daily dose I've been
crippled by cramp several times today :(

[]
I rather fear Poundland won't accept that as proof, even if you can find
an English speaker (or rather, if their English speaker will come out to
speak to a customer).
But I'd like to be wrong.

Ah. Ones I've been in in this neck of the woods tend to be foreigners
(and I _don't_ mean Welsh) with minimal English.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

We'd agreed to overlook each others' families and everything, and get married"
(The Trouble with Harry)

Penny

2020-03-02 20:55:24 UTC

On Sun, 01 Mar 2020 19:06:10 +0000, Penny <***@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Penny
If I can be bothered
I'll be contacting head office and Trading Standards, not the store.

But I won't be contacting either because I could BA to check my facts. I
don't like the use of UI on some things and mcg (or Mu g) on others, it
leads to just this sort of confusion.
I thought 25 mcg was 250 UI whereas it is 1,000 UI.

I had been taking 2x25 mcg per day and switched to 1x25 mcg - no wonder I
got cramp.

Jolly good price though - I may get some more - as blister packs go, they
are easy to pop out..

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Mike

2020-03-03 08:46:00 UTC

Post by Penny
Jolly good price though - I may get some more - as blister packs go, they
are easy to pop out..

Which is my cue to say I have just tried out that pill popper that Serena
kindly told Umrats about - worked a treat - thanks muchly Serena!

--
Toodle Pip

Vicky Ayech

2020-03-03 08:58:16 UTC

Post by Penny
Jolly good price though - I may get some more - as blister packs go, they
are easy to pop out..

Which is my cue to say I have just tried out that pill popper that Serena
kindly told Umrats about - worked a treat - thanks muchly Serena!

My problem is not getting the pills out of their packs as much as
getting them into the little partitions in the dispensing boxes. My
fingers are arthritic and wobble. I suppose the exercise of sorting
the pills every few days for morning dispenser box and evening one is
good to keep the fingers from completely seizing up.

Mike

2020-03-03 09:16:42 UTC

Post by Vicky Ayech

Post by Penny
Jolly good price though - I may get some more - as blister packs go, they
are easy to pop out..

Which is my cue to say I have just tried out that pill popper that Serena
kindly told Umrats about - worked a treat - thanks muchly Serena!

This particular pill popper can retain the pill so that it can then be
tipped into another container. The gadget includes a ‘catcher’ which may be
slid out if pills are required to fall out at the back, though I cannot see
an application where I would want the pill to fall out m’self.

--
Toodle Pip

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-03 12:51:43 UTC

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 08:58:16, Vicky Ayech <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
[]

Post by Vicky Ayech
My problem is not getting the pills out of their packs as much as
getting them into the little partitions in the dispensing boxes. My
fingers are arthritic and wobble. I suppose the exercise of sorting
the pills every few days for morning dispenser box and evening one is
good to keep the fingers from completely seizing up.

I _think_ I have seen somewhere, giant versions of those dispensing
boxes. Not practical if you want to put them in a handbag or similar,
though, but might be OK if you don't go out much.

(Going out: this coronavirus sounds as if it might get quite serious.
I'm self-isolated as it is! But still need to emerge to replenish.)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I don't see the requirement to upset people. ... There's enough to make fun of
without offending. - Ronnie Corbett, in Radio Times 6-12 August 2011.

Serena Blanchflower

2020-03-03 13:31:57 UTC

It's possible to get the pharmacist to do this for you and to dispense
your meds already organised into a dosette box. I don't know how you
organise this though, whether you just have to ask the pharmacy or if
you need to organise it through your GP.

--
Best wishes, Serena
I hope to God the doctor finds something wrong with me because I'd hate
to feel like this if I was well! (Anon)

Kate B

2020-03-03 14:17:46 UTC

Post by Serena Blanchflower

My mother had one of these. It was organised in association with the GP,
as you need a prescription, and the pharmacist dropped it round every week.

Lately, with regard to someone else, I queried why everyday pills like
paracetamol were now included in the boxes and was told that carers are
not allowed to dispense even paracetamol these days. They can only ever
give a person the pills from the dosset box. It sounds draconian - I
suppose it lessens the risk of overdoses of paracetamol or aspirin, but
it must be awful to have a headache or toothache or something and not be
able to ask for a pain-reliever.

--
Kate B
London

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-03 14:58:43 UTC

(Is this the most divergent thread we've ever had on UMRA? I don't just
mean thread wander - that's a given! - but I think this one has branched
at least three or four ways, too. [And I know I'm responsible for some
of both the wandering and the branching.])

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 14:17:46, Kate B <***@nospam.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
[]

Post by Kate B
Lately, with regard to someone else, I queried why everyday pills like
paracetamol were now included in the boxes and was told that carers are
not allowed to dispense even paracetamol these days. They can only ever
give a person the pills from the dosset box. It sounds draconian - I
suppose it lessens the risk of overdoses of paracetamol or aspirin, but
it must be awful to have a headache or toothache or something and not
be able to ask for a pain-reliever.

I just am cross that the pill industry (and, probably, the packaging
industry, in fact it might be more them) grasped with open arms the
suicide fears of a few years (decades?) ago. I can still remember when I
could buy a jar of 50 or 100 paracetamol, paracetamol-with-codeine,
aspirin, etc., at Boots.
Of course, prices rocketed.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If a cluttered desk is characteristic of a cluttered mind, what does an empty
desk mean ?

Joe Kerr

2020-03-03 14:50:48 UTC

Post by Serena Blanchflower

You just talk to your pharmacist and then magically nothing happens for
about 6 months other than the patient and pharmacist get more and more
frustrated (and the patient regularly runs out and takes wrong doses)
whilst trying to get the GP to cooperate. Not all medication can be
handled this way - only tablets with a constant, regular dose. I think
there might be a small charge for the service if it is not a medical
necessity.

--
Ric

Serena Blanchflower

2020-03-03 13:29:19 UTC

Post by Penny
Jolly good price though - I may get some more - as blister packs go, they
are easy to pop out..

Which is my cue to say I have just tried out that pill popper that Serena
kindly told Umrats about - worked a treat - thanks muchly Serena!

Beam!

--
Best wishes, Serena
It actually doesn't take much to be considered a difficult woman. That's
why there are so many of us. (Jane Goodall)

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-01 16:13:32 UTC

How did you find this out? Was it in very very small print or have you
been conducting interesting experiments?

I was wondering that! I'll be interested to hear how you get on with
Poundland, if you decide to bother.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If it's not on fire, it's a software problem.

Mike

2020-03-01 08:56:18 UTC

Our school dorms had a layer of ice on the inside of the windows for days
at a time in the winter - there were some very small profile electric
‘skirting board style’ radiators around some of the walls but... adequate
they were not!

--
Toodle Pip

Chris J Dixon

2020-03-01 08:47:09 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Presumably, this will come out in the wash when we're all-electric
heating anyway, as we're told we will have to be - there'll be
individual room heating and we'll do away with heating pipework.

That depends a little. Aren't we supposed to be going for
heat-pump based systems of one kind or another? Surely some of
those will be whole-house based?

Chris

--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-01 12:53:36 UTC

That depends a little. Aren't we supposed to be going for
heat-pump based systems of one kind or another? Surely some of
those will be whole-house based?
Chris

Indeed. Seems to have received minimal coverage, along with the other
sort (_not_ photovoltaic) of solar panels. My cousin in Wensley (yes,
that which gives -dale its name) was involved with the installation of
such a system in their community hall (or similar structure), which has
now been up and running successfully for some years.

It _might_ be that it needs a fair bit of land: the hall works with a
small field next to it. But I'm sure there is opportunity.

Basically, our entire energy policy - electricity (current use-types),
heating, and transport - needs a lot more together thinking. And,
probably, some unpopular (including with me) enforcement measures.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Get off my turf!" screamed Pooh, as he shot at Paddington.

Sam Plusnet

2020-03-01 21:04:17 UTC

That depends a little. Aren't we supposed to be going for
heat-pump based systems of one kind or another? Surely some of
those will be whole-house based?
Chris

We have a big enough garden for a ground source heat pump system, but no
way to get the largish digging equipment into the garden to install it.

As Wofe would no doubt refuse to allow 'her' garden to be dug up in that
fashion, it isn't worth pursuing.

--
Sam Plusnet

Sally Thompson

2020-03-02 08:00:35 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet

That depends a little. Aren't we supposed to be going for
heat-pump based systems of one kind or another? Surely some of
those will be whole-house based?
Chris

We have a big enough garden for a ground source heat pump system, but no
way to get the largish digging equipment into the garden to install it.
As Wofe would no doubt refuse to allow 'her' garden to be dug up in that
fashion, it isn't worth pursuing.

We have an air source heat pump. No digging required !

--
Sally in Shropshire, UK

Chris J Dixon

2020-03-02 09:16:34 UTC

Post by Sally Thompson
We have an air source heat pump. No digging required !

Is that for one room or the whole house?

I have worked in offices with such a system as the only heat
source. It appeared to operate quite well through the winter, but
during the defrost cycles, when the mode reverses (in
order to melt frost on the external heat exchanger) the internal
kit blows cool for a while, but not to the extent that it
compromised overall heating performance.

Chris

--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.

Sally Thompson

2020-03-02 09:21:50 UTC

Post by Sally Thompson
We have an air source heat pump. No digging required !

Is that for one room or the whole house?
I have worked in offices with such a system as the only heat
source. It appeared to operate quite well through the winter, but
during the defrost cycles, when the mode reverses (in
order to melt frost on the external heat exchanger) the internal
kit blows cool for a while, but not to the extent that it
compromised overall heating performance.

The whole house (quite a large one). We have underfloor heating, which I
would say is important if not essential for efficiency. We haven't noticed
any compromise in heating performance.

--
Sally in Shropshire, UK

Chris J Dixon

2020-03-02 10:17:27 UTC

Post by Sally Thompson
The whole house (quite a large one). We have underfloor heating, which I
would say is important if not essential for efficiency. We haven't noticed
any compromise in heating performance.

Yes I have read that the lower water temperature required by
underfloor heating is important. Also, the thermal time constant
is so great that any brief de-icing periods are unnoticeable.

Not an easy retro-fit.

Chris

--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.

Chris J Dixon

2020-03-02 09:12:49 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet
We have a big enough garden for a ground source heat pump system, but no
way to get the largish digging equipment into the garden to install it.
As Wofe would no doubt refuse to allow 'her' garden to be dug up in that
fashion, it isn't worth pursuing.

I have no idea what stage technology has reached these days, but
I have seen some programmes featuring American houses where they
simply drilled a deep hole in the middle of the drive. I guess
that may be a bit more expensive than a load of shallow trenches.

Chris

--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.

Mike

2020-03-02 11:42:07 UTC

And through the means of that deep hole, they tapped into an oil seam,
tapped off a gas main and connected to an HV electrical supply. ;-)))

--
Toodle Pip

Sam Plusnet

2020-03-02 19:35:36 UTC

The versions I've read about involve a ground loop at a depth of around
1 metre.
Getting a mini digger into our garden would be next to impossible.
One of those drilling rigs capable of drilling 90 to 160 metres down
(the version you mention) isn't even worth thinking about.

Looking at the 'projected' savings (projected by people who are trying
to sell the product) over our existing Gas CH, it would take at least a
couple of decades to recoup the outlay.

--
Sam Plusnet

Chris J Dixon

2020-03-02 20:32:16 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet
Looking at the 'projected' savings (projected by people who are trying
to sell the product) over our existing Gas CH, it would take at least a
couple of decades to recoup the outlay.

Absolutely. As long as mains gas is available, and at present
prices, then nothing else comes close. To a first approximation
electricity costs about 3 times as much as gas, so even if a heat
pump produces 3 times the energy it uses, you haven't made any
significant saving, so you certainly wouldn't recoup the
investment.

I don't know how the figures look for oil, but presume there is
_some_ saving.

However, once (if?) the government get their ducks in a row to
address the climate emergency, then I imagine that legislation
and pricing strategies will change considerably.

The big problem is that new kinds of heating systems and
energy-efficient dwellings are not a simple retro-fit, and as
they last quite some time, then natural replacement isn't going
to make a difference any time soon.

Chris

--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.

steve hague

2020-03-03 12:09:36 UTC

Absolutely. As long as mains gas is available, and at present
prices, then nothing else comes close. To a first approximation
electricity costs about 3 times as much as gas, so even if a heat
pump produces 3 times the energy it uses, you haven't made any
significant saving, so you certainly wouldn't recoup the
investment.
I don't know how the figures look for oil, but presume there is
_some_ saving.
However, once (if?) the government get their ducks in a row to
address the climate emergency, then I imagine that legislation
and pricing strategies will change considerably.
The big problem is that new kinds of heating systems and
energy-efficient dwellings are not a simple retro-fit, and as
they last quite some time, then natural replacement isn't going
to make a difference any time soon.
Chris

IMHO, we're soon going to be paying a great deal more for electricity.
Petrol and diesel cars are being phased out (not sure how well this will
work with HGVs), so how are governments going to replace the vast
amounts of revenue they get from oil based fuels? Tax the electric
motorist seems like a reasonable guess. That will include domestic
electricity prices soaring as EV owners will largely charge their cars
at home.
Steve

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-03 13:12:04 UTC

[]

Post by Chris J Dixon
However, once (if?) the government get their ducks in a row to
address the climate emergency, then I imagine that legislation
and pricing strategies will change considerably.

It could go one of two ways: either a fairly draconian set of moves, or
an abandonment of the attempt. Governments (of all colours) will _try_
to just "muddle through", but that will fail (and the failure be made
worse by having done the muddling, as with so many things in the past -
like the mines/industry and unions at the Maggie time).

Post by Chris J Dixon
The big problem is that new kinds of heating systems and
energy-efficient dwellings are not a simple retro-fit, and as
they last quite some time, then natural replacement isn't going
to make a difference any time soon.

Some of us think of cars that way too: the car industry would love us to
buy a new one every three years (or less), but many (I suspect most in
UMRA) not only can't afford to do that, but don't think it is right to
do so. [For example, the one I bought in about October 2018, I think of
as nearly new - but it's actually a 56, so 14 years old. (Škoda
Octavia.)]

Post by Chris J Dixon
Chris

That's one of the many things I'm (quietly) cross about: they attack
private cars (especially Diesels), but seem to give very little
attention to HGVs, or - until this government, and I'm not convinced of
_their_ determination - buses.

Post by steve hague
amounts of revenue they get from oil based fuels? Tax the electric
motorist seems like a reasonable guess. That will include domestic
electricity prices soaring as EV owners will largely charge their cars
at home.
Steve

I don't think they'll do that (tax the electric motorist) _just_ yet -
they've still not convinced the Great British Public that EVs are a good
idea (or at least worth the price premium) yet, and any even hint that
the price advantage will be whittled would almost kill off any switch.
Unless they hugely raise either conventional fuel duty or car tax, both
of which would cause public unrest if done enough to be effective.

(I have no solution.)

steve hague

2020-03-03 11:51:43 UTC

That depends a little. Aren't we supposed to be going for
heat-pump based systems of one kind or another? Surely some of
those will be whole-house based?
Chris

Indeed. Seems to have received minimal coverage, along with the other
sort (_not_ photovoltaic) of solar panels. My cousin in Wensley (yes,
that which gives -dale its name) was involved with the installation of
such a system in their community hall (or similar structure), which has
now been up and running successfully for some years.
It _might_ be that it needs a fair bit of land: the hall works with a
small field next to it. But I'm sure there is opportunity.
Basically, our entire energy policy - electricity (current use-types),
heating, and transport - needs a lot more together thinking. And,
probably, some unpopular (including with me) enforcement measures.

Perhaps we should live in Viking style longhouses. Easy to heat, but not
a lot of privacy, and the possibility of Grendel coming in when
everyone's asleep.
Steve

Mike

2020-03-03 12:03:15 UTC

That depends a little. Aren't we supposed to be going for
heat-pump based systems of one kind or another? Surely some of
those will be whole-house based?
Chris

Indeed. Seems to have received minimal coverage, along with the other
sort (_not_ photovoltaic) of solar panels. My cousin in Wensley (yes,
that which gives -dale its name) was involved with the installation of
such a system in their community hall (or similar structure), which has
now been up and running successfully for some years.
It _might_ be that it needs a fair bit of land: the hall works with a
small field next to it. But I'm sure there is opportunity.
Basically, our entire energy policy - electricity (current use-types),
heating, and transport - needs a lot more together thinking. And,
probably, some unpopular (including with me) enforcement measures.

Perhaps we should live in Viking style longhouses. Easy to heat, but not
a lot of privacy, and the possibility of Grendel coming in when
everyone's asleep.
Steve

Doesn’t Grendel have a tower to live in, no problem keeping that warm
either.

--
Toodle Pip

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-03 12:41:07 UTC

[]

Post by steve hague
Perhaps we should live in Viking style longhouses. Easy to heat, but not
a lot of privacy, and the possibility of Grendel coming in when
everyone's asleep.
Steve

Doesn’t Grendel have a tower to live in, no problem keeping that warm
either.

LOL! Superb BTN candidate.

(Even though the tower was really spelt like that nice lay comedian
[comedienne].)

Mike Ruddock

2020-03-03 12:42:35 UTC

That depends a little. Aren't we supposed to be going for
heat-pump based systems of one kind or another? Surely some of
those will be whole-house based?
Chris

Indeed. Seems to have received minimal coverage, along with the other
sort (_not_ photovoltaic) of solar panels. My cousin in Wensley (yes,
that which gives -dale its name) was involved with the installation of
such a system in their community hall (or similar structure), which has
now been up and running successfully for some years.
It _might_ be that it needs a fair bit of land: the hall works with a
small field next to it. But I'm sure there is opportunity.
Basically, our entire energy policy - electricity (current use-types),
heating, and transport - needs a lot more together thinking. And,
probably, some unpopular (including with me) enforcement measures.

Perhaps we should live in Viking style longhouses. Easy to heat, but not
a lot of privacy, and the possibility of Grendel coming in when
everyone's asleep.
Steve

Doesn’t Grendel have a tower to live in, no problem keeping that warm
either.

BTN

Mike Ruddock

Serena Blanchflower

2020-03-01 14:48:22 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
If you have individual thermostats, then you probably don't need a
master one; they'll fight. It sounds like your system - like, I think,
most - will operate the boiler based on the master thermostat; if that's
not being heated, there won't be hot water in the system to drive the
other radiators (which can't demand _more_ hot water, only limit it to
_less_ - only the master 'stat can demand more [light up the boiler]).
With the result that you have to keep the hall hot to be sure the rest
works. You probably _could_ use the hall radiator's thermostat, if you
set the wall one to above what you want anywhere, to ensure the _boiler_
is always heating the water in the system. (That _might_ use more gas
though, unless - as I'd hope - it shuts off when no water is flowing.
[Some systems need at least one radiator somewhere that doesn't _have_
an individual control valve, thermostatic or otherwise, to ensure there
is always some water circulating, so the boiler doesn't blow up.])

IME, if you have individual thermostats, you very much need to have a
master one as well. I only had individual thermostats when I first had
central heating fitted at my old house but that really didn't work well
at all.

The individual thermostats are only a few inches away from the radiator
and so really only work to limit how hard that radiator should be
working but have only a limited relationship with how warm the room is,
overall. I found that whenever the weather changed, I'd have to scuffle
round, adjusting all the individual thermostats[1], either up or down,
to get the room back to a comfortable temperature.

When I had a master thermostat installed though, the system worked well.
The radiator thermostats in the rooms where I spent most of my time,
were left on full, while those in rooms I wanted to keep rather cooler
were put on lower settings.

[1] Always near floor level, frequently half behind furniture and hard
to get at :(

--
Best wishes, Serena
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It's about learning how
to dance in the rain. (Vivian Greene)

Mike

2020-03-01 14:54:56 UTC

Post by Serena Blanchflower

IME, if you have individual thermostats, you very much need to have a
master one as well. I only had individual thermostats when I first had
central heating fitted at my old house but that really didn't work well
at all.
The individual thermostats are only a few inches away from the radiator
and so really only work to limit how hard that radiator should be
working but have only a limited relationship with how warm the room is,
overall. I found that whenever the weather changed, I'd have to scuffle
round, adjusting all the individual thermostats[1], either up or down,
to get the room back to a comfortable temperature.
When I had a master thermostat installed though, the system worked well.
The radiator thermostats in the rooms where I spent most of my time,
were left on full, while those in rooms I wanted to keep rather cooler
were put on lower settings.
[1] Always near floor level, frequently half behind furniture and hard
to get at :(

My Hive TRV’s have (I’m told), three types of sensors and they do a fair
but not perfect job of keeping rooms at desired temperatures. We do have a
‘master’ thermostat which is built in to the controller; this is sited on
the opposite wall to the bathroom (unregulated) radiator. The individual
thermostats speak to the Hive system and can request ‘Heat on Demand’ when
required.

--
Toodle Pip

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-01 16:19:54 UTC

On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 at 14:48:22, Serena Blanchflower
<***@blanchflower.me.uk> wrote:
[]

Post by Serena Blanchflower
When I had a master thermostat installed though, the system worked
well. The radiator thermostats in the rooms where I spent most of my
time, were left on full, while those in rooms I wanted to keep rather
cooler were put on lower settings.

[]
That makes sense to me, if the master thermostat is also in the room you
spent most of your time in.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If it's not on fire, it's a software problem.

Penny

2020-03-01 19:09:33 UTC

On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:19:54 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 at 14:48:22, Serena Blanchflower
[]

[]
That makes sense to me, if the master thermostat is also in the room you
spent most of your time in.

That is not the way I was told it was supposed to work. I know you don't
believe me but it works well here.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Jenny M Benson

2020-02-29 16:06:12 UTC

Post by Penny
I think I was offered something like that but if the only way of
controlling the heating is by using another, mobile, device which may not
be working or findable when you need it did not appeal.

The device I use for controlling my heating is me! I turn the
thermostat down to 17 deg when I don't want the heating on (unless it
gets REALLY cold) and turn it up to about 20 when required.

The problem I have is that the thermo talks to the boiler via wi-fi ...
WHEN the wi-fi permits, but quite often the signal just doesn't get
through. This despite the gasman having altered some setting which was
supposed to improve matters.

--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK

Sam Plusnet

2020-02-29 21:37:36 UTC

The device I use for controlling my heating is me! I turn the
thermostat down to 17 deg when I don't want the heating on (unless it
gets REALLY cold) and turn it up to about 20 when required.
The problem I have is that the thermo talks to the boiler via wi-fi ...
WHEN the wi-fi permits, but quite often the signal just doesn't get
through. This despite the gasman having altered some setting which was
supposed to improve matters.

We have a far more sophisticated solution.

Too cold? Switch on heating.
Too warm or going to bed soon(ish)? Switch off heating.
We don't _do_ thermostats.

--
Sam Plusnet

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-02-29 22:06:59 UTC

On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 at 21:37:36, Sam Plusnet <***@home.com> wrote:
[]

Post by Sam Plusnet
We have a far more sophisticated solution.
Too cold? Switch on heating.
Too warm or going to bed soon(ish)? Switch off heating.
We don't _do_ thermostats.

The first of those, though, do mean you have to wait for the heating to
warm you. Whereas it could, otherwise, come on as temperature drops
_before_ you actually notice you're cold.

But, if it works for you - presumably meaning your system warms the
house fairly quickly - fine.

What I find infuriating is people who _do_ use a thermostat, but - say,
when they come in from the cold, or it comes on under the timeswitch -
turn it up even when the boiler is going full blast. Turning it up under
those circumstances _won't_ make the house warm any _quicker_. (It just
means when it _does_ shut off, the house will be too hot.) But it's
impossible to get this across - mum and grandma for example. I've always
thought a red and green light (or even just a red one) on the thermostat
would help clarify this, and if designing a system, would implement
such.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the God who endowed me with sense,
reason, and intellect intends me to forego their use". - Gallileo Gallilei

Chris J Dixon

2020-03-01 08:52:48 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
What I find infuriating is people who _do_ use a thermostat, but - say,
when they come in from the cold, or it comes on under the timeswitch -
turn it up even when the boiler is going full blast. Turning it up under
those circumstances _won't_ make the house warm any _quicker_. (It just
means when it _does_ shut off, the house will be too hot.) But it's
impossible to get this across - mum and grandma for example. I've always
thought a red and green light (or even just a red one) on the thermostat
would help clarify this, and if designing a system, would implement
such.

I had a protracted dialogue with site services because of
problems with the office aircon system - they were eventually
convinced that having no user controls wasn't working. There
seems to be little understanding that you need accurate control,
but quite a large band between heating and cooling, and the way
this was working, winter and summer settings needed to be
different.

So, they gave us a small control panel, which also showed us the
state of the three heating stages. Even when all three were on,
especially on a cold Monday morning, there were those who
insisted on winding up the setting. This was, for added irony, in
an office full of professional control engineers.

Chris

--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
***@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.

Sam Plusnet

2020-03-01 21:13:37 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet
We have a far more sophisticated solution.
Too cold? Switch on heating.
Too warm or going to bed soon(ish)? Switch off heating.
We don't _do_ thermostats.

The first of those, though, do mean you have to wait for the heating to
warm you. Whereas it could, otherwise, come on as temperature drops
_before_ you actually notice you're cold.

It's a matter of what approach you wish to take.

If I don't feel cold, I don't see any reason to burn fuel for heating.
Because feeling cold is a subjective thing[1] a thermostat can't make
useful decisions for me.

[1] The occupant of a house could be sitting motionless in front of the
TV in a tee-shirt, or warmly dressed and actively doing 'things'.
Those two individuals would have quite different heating needs that a
thermostat can't address.

--
Sam Plusnet

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-03-01 23:12:32 UTC

On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 at 21:13:37, Sam Plusnet <***@home.com> wrote:
[]

Post by Sam Plusnet
It's a matter of what approach you wish to take.
If I don't feel cold, I don't see any reason to burn fuel for heating.
Because feeling cold is a subjective thing[1] a thermostat can't make
useful decisions for me.

I agree, it's very subjective. Though you can not realise you feel cold
- especially if not moving much - until you do; at least, that's what
_I_ find. And then when I realise I _do_ feel cold, I find it takes
longer before I _don't_ feel cold any longer, than if I didn't enter
that state in the first place.

But we're all different! (All together now ...)

Post by Sam Plusnet
[1] The occupant of a house could be sitting motionless in front of the
TV in a tee-shirt, or warmly dressed and actively doing 'things'.
Those two individuals would have quite different heating needs that a
thermostat can't address.

Indeed.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The early worm gets the bird.

Vicky Ayech

2020-03-02 09:37:01 UTC

On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 23:12:32 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I agree, it's very subjective. Though you can not realise you feel cold
- especially if not moving much - until you do; at least, that's what
_I_ find. And then when I realise I _do_ feel cold, I find it takes
longer before I _don't_ feel cold any longer, than if I didn't enter
that state in the first place.

I think it is like that with painkiller meds. If you take them
regularly and keep the levels it works better than trying to take
them just when you hurt, when they take longer to work. Although not
taking them ifnot actually hurting might mean you can cut down. ,,,,

Penny

2020-03-02 15:20:32 UTC

On Mon, 02 Mar 2020 09:37:01 +0000, Vicky Ayech <***@gmail.com>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Vicky Ayech
On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 23:12:32 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Not always - I had some which I had prescribed for something very painful.
Having found they made me sleepy, I took some with me on a long haul flight
in the hope they would help me sleep. They didn't but gave me a dreadful
headache :(

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Joe Kerr

2020-03-02 11:53:22 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet
If I don't feel cold, I don't see any reason to burn fuel for heating.
Because feeling cold is a subjective thing[1] a thermostat can't make
useful decisions for me.

True. My mother regularly complains that the central heating is broken
when the hall radiator is cold and she has some laundry to dry.

--
Ric

Mike

2020-03-01 08:49:19 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet

The device I use for controlling my heating is me! I turn the
thermostat down to 17 deg when I don't want the heating on (unless it
gets REALLY cold) and turn it up to about 20 when required.
The problem I have is that the thermo talks to the boiler via wi-fi ...
WHEN the wi-fi permits, but quite often the signal just doesn't get
through. This despite the gasman having altered some setting which was
supposed to improve matters.

We have a far more sophisticated solution.
Too cold? Switch on heating.
Too warm or going to bed soon(ish)? Switch off heating.
We don't _do_ thermostats.

Do you need degrees to operate this regime?

--
Toodle Pip

BrritSki

2020-03-01 11:01:55 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet
We have a far more sophisticated solution.
Too cold? Switch on heating.
Too warm or going to bed soon(ish)? Switch off heating.
We don't _do_ thermostats.

Do you need degrees to operate this regime?

What's your angle Mike ? I think you're being a bit obtuse. You need a
more acute understanding so sign up to right course such that we have no
more incidents, 'cos if you don't, Matron'll be along to tan your hide...

Mike

2020-03-01 11:23:09 UTC

Post by BrritSki