Lime tree and Swedes living like Indians.

[I.E_Johansson]

new subject line derived from answer to Daryl's message sent 31 Jan 2005
19:21:55 local time of Daryl's.

"Daryl Krupa" <***@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet news:***@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

I.E_Johansson wrote:

<snip>

Daryl,
it's not in volume 1-3 which have been translated into English.
It's in volume 4. I sent the ISBN number in an answer to tk.
951-9018-43-3 editor svenska litteratursällskapet i Finland,
edited Helsingfors 1988. The full journal of volume 4 without
editor's hand on has been edited by John E Roos and Harry Krogerus
in 1988. I am sorry but I don't have the ISBN number for that work.
One title Pehr Kalms resa till Norra Amerika and the other in form of

a

Resejournal över resan till Norra Amerika.

Inger E:
I have access to microfilm copies of the books written
by Pehr Kalms.
If you give me the original page number,
and the original tile of the book,
then I can read Kalms' reference to
avenues of cultivated lime trees.

The original title of the book is volume 4, but of course I can get in for
you it's after page 1000 that I know and parts is in the added writings of
Kalm where he got information from the oldest Swedes, 8from other paragraphs
in the book they must have been at least 80 because he speaks of 80-90 year
old Swedes). You know the added information when the Swedes first came to
Amerika. You know the part called 'Tillägg till dagboken' for example on
page 1061 'De Swenskes första hijtkomst' where you also can read:
".... de här hade intet annat folk at umgås med, än de willa indianer, så
aftogo de mer och mer i åtbörder från de Europeiska och gamla Swenska, och
började likna mer och mer indianerna, så at vid Engelsmännernas hijtkomst de
Swenske til en stor del icke voro bättre stort än willa indianer...."

Short summery: The Swedes had when they first arrived no other than the
natives to be together with so their maners changed more and more from the
European and the Old Swedish. Thus the Swedes came to look and act more and
more like the natives. When the English arrived the Swedes was living almost
as the natives......

Inger E

[Alaca]

Post by I.E_Johansson
new subject line derived from answer to Daryl's message sent 31 Jan
2005 19:21:55 local time of Daryl's.
<snip>

Daryl,
it's not in volume 1-3 which have been translated into English.
It's in volume 4. I sent the ISBN number in an answer to tk.
951-9018-43-3 editor svenska litteratursällskapet i Finland,
edited Helsingfors 1988. The full journal of volume 4 without
editor's hand on has been edited by John E Roos and Harry Krogerus
in 1988. I am sorry but I don't have the ISBN number for that work.
One title Pehr Kalms resa till Norra Amerika and the other in form of

a

Resejournal över resan till Norra Amerika.

I have access to microfilm copies of the books written
by Pehr Kalms.
If you give me the original page number,
and the original tile of the book,
then I can read Kalms' reference to
avenues of cultivated lime trees.
The original title of the book is volume 4, but of course I can get
in for you it's after page 1000 that I know and parts is in the
added writings of Kalm where he got information from the oldest
Swedes, 8from other paragraphs in the book they must have been at
least 80 because he speaks of 80-90 year old Swedes). You know the
added information when the Swedes first came to Amerika. You know
the part called 'Tillägg till dagboken' for example on page 1061
'De Swenskes första hijtkomst' where you also can read: ".... de
här hade intet annat folk at umgås med, än de willa indianer, så
aftogo de mer och mer i åtbörder från de Europeiska och gamla
Swenska, och började likna mer och mer indianerna, så at vid
Engelsmännernas hijtkomst de Swenske til en stor del icke voro
bättre stort än willa indianer...."
Short summery: The Swedes had when they first arrived no other than
the natives to be together with so their maners changed more and
more from the European and the Old Swedish. Thus the Swedes came to
look and act more and more like the natives. When the English
arrived the Swedes was living almost as the natives......

Inger, earlier (28-01-05) you askt:
"Are there any or many known early European settlers in southern
Canada north of the Great Lakes, apart of course from trappers
who hardly cultivated lime trees in avenues in front of their houses."

Are those trappers the same as these wild old Swedes?
BTW. If I was a trapper I loved a row of trees in front of my house.

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by Alaca

Post by I.E_Johansson
new subject line derived from answer to Daryl's message sent 31 Jan
2005 19:21:55 local time of Daryl's.
<snip>

Daryl,
it's not in volume 1-3 which have been translated into English.
It's in volume 4. I sent the ISBN number in an answer to tk.
951-9018-43-3 editor svenska litteratursällskapet i Finland,
edited Helsingfors 1988. The full journal of volume 4 without
editor's hand on has been edited by John E Roos and Harry Krogerus
in 1988. I am sorry but I don't have the ISBN number for that work.
One title Pehr Kalms resa till Norra Amerika and the other in form of

a

Resejournal över resan till Norra Amerika.

I have access to microfilm copies of the books written
by Pehr Kalms.
If you give me the original page number,
and the original tile of the book,
then I can read Kalms' reference to
avenues of cultivated lime trees.
The original title of the book is volume 4, but of course I can get
in for you it's after page 1000 that I know and parts is in the
added writings of Kalm where he got information from the oldest
Swedes, 8from other paragraphs in the book they must have been at
least 80 because he speaks of 80-90 year old Swedes). You know the
added information when the Swedes first came to Amerika. You know
the part called 'Tillägg till dagboken' for example on page 1061
'De Swenskes första hijtkomst' where you also can read: ".... de
här hade intet annat folk at umgås med, än de willa indianer, så
aftogo de mer och mer i åtbörder från de Europeiska och gamla
Swenska, och började likna mer och mer indianerna, så at vid
Engelsmännernas hijtkomst de Swenske til en stor del icke voro
bättre stort än willa indianer...."
Short summery: The Swedes had when they first arrived no other than
the natives to be together with so their maners changed more and
more from the European and the Old Swedish. Thus the Swedes came to
look and act more and more like the natives. When the English
arrived the Swedes was living almost as the natives......

"Are there any or many known early European settlers in southern
Canada north of the Great Lakes, apart of course from trappers
who hardly cultivated lime trees in avenues in front of their houses."
Are those trappers the same as these wild old Swedes?
BTW. If I was a trapper I loved a row of trees in front of my house.

Guess you would. Anyhow those weren't trappers. They were more like the
'torpare' we had here. People who lived on small land according to other
notes of Pehr Kalm they were said to have had 1-2 cows, a few pigs and some
other kettles. Who they were? That at least I don't know for sure. That they
also might have hunted birds and other animals that doesn't make them
trappers you know.

Inger E

Post by Alaca
--
-- Peter Alaca --

[d***@ev1.net]

Post by Alaca

Post by Alaca

Post by I.E_Johansson
new subject line derived from answer to Daryl's message sent 31 Jan
2005 19:21:55 local time of Daryl's.
<snip>

Daryl,
it's not in volume 1-3 which have been translated into English.
It's in volume 4. I sent the ISBN number in an answer to tk.
951-9018-43-3 editor svenska litteratursällskapet i Finland,
edited Helsingfors 1988. The full journal of volume 4 without
editor's hand on has been edited by John E Roos and Harry

Krogerus

Post by Alaca

Post by Alaca

Post by I.E_Johansson

in 1988. I am sorry but I don't have the ISBN number for that work.
One title Pehr Kalms resa till Norra Amerika and the other in

form

Post by Alaca

Post by Alaca

Post by I.E_Johansson

of

a

Resejournal över resan till Norra Amerika.

I have access to microfilm copies of the books written
by Pehr Kalms.
If you give me the original page number,
and the original tile of the book,
then I can read Kalms' reference to
avenues of cultivated lime trees.
The original title of the book is volume 4, but of course I can get
in for you it's after page 1000 that I know and parts is in the
added writings of Kalm where he got information from the oldest
Swedes, 8from other paragraphs in the book they must have been at
least 80 because he speaks of 80-90 year old Swedes). You know the
added information when the Swedes first came to Amerika. You know
the part called 'Tillägg till dagboken' for example on page 1061
'De Swenskes första hijtkomst' where you also can read: ".... de
här hade intet annat folk at umgås med, än de willa indianer, så
aftogo de mer och mer i åtbörder från de Europeiska och gamla
Swenska, och började likna mer och mer indianerna, så at vid
Engelsmännernas hijtkomst de Swenske til en stor del icke voro
bättre stort än willa indianer...."
Short summery: The Swedes had when they first arrived no other than
the natives to be together with so their maners changed more and
more from the European and the Old Swedish. Thus the Swedes came to
look and act more and more like the natives. When the English
arrived the Swedes was living almost as the natives......

"Are there any or many known early European settlers in

southern

Post by Alaca

Post by Alaca
Canada north of the Great Lakes, apart of course from

trappers

Post by Alaca

Post by Alaca
who hardly cultivated lime trees in avenues in front of their

houses."

Post by Alaca
Are those trappers the same as these wild old Swedes?
BTW. If I was a trapper I loved a row of trees in front of my house.

Guess you would. Anyhow those weren't trappers. They were more like the
'torpare' we had here. People who lived on small land according to other
notes of Pehr Kalm they were said to have had 1-2 cows, a few pigs and some
other kettles. Who they were? That at least I don't know for sure. That they
also might have hunted birds and other animals that doesn't make them
trappers you know.
Inger E

Post by Alaca
--
-- Peter Alaca --

(nothing snipped EVER by David H)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If Svenska pioneers were growing lime trees
or other citrus,
they were probably living near the frost line
which runs thru Florida. Where did they get
the seeds ? My hunch is Bermuda where the
oranges are green not orange due to the
tropical weather (cold weather makes the
fruit look orange).

A similar thing happened to the English Roanoke
colony. IIRC their leader John Smith or John Alden
had to return to London. The politicks at the
time prevented him from bringing over a second
and third shiploads of English emigrants. It took
him two years to return to Roanoke Island, VA.
When he arrived, the colonists had already
integrated with the local Indians. Virginia Dare,
the first English girl born in America, was
presumably dead or married off to a chieftain.
David H
("Virginia Dare" lives on as a brand of syrup.
Yes, Virginia is a good maple syrup.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by Alaca

Post by Alaca

Post by I.E_Johansson
new subject line derived from answer to Daryl's message sent 31 Jan
2005 19:21:55 local time of Daryl's.
<snip>

Daryl,
it's not in volume 1-3 which have been translated into English.
It's in volume 4. I sent the ISBN number in an answer to tk.
951-9018-43-3 editor svenska litteratursällskapet i Finland,
edited Helsingfors 1988. The full journal of volume 4 without
editor's hand on has been edited by John E Roos and Harry

Krogerus

Post by Alaca

Post by Alaca

Post by I.E_Johansson

in 1988. I am sorry but I don't have the ISBN number for that work.
One title Pehr Kalms resa till Norra Amerika and the other in

form

Post by Alaca

Post by Alaca

Post by I.E_Johansson

of

a

Resejournal över resan till Norra Amerika.

I have access to microfilm copies of the books written
by Pehr Kalms.
If you give me the original page number,
and the original tile of the book,
then I can read Kalms' reference to
avenues of cultivated lime trees.
The original title of the book is volume 4, but of course I can get
in for you it's after page 1000 that I know and parts is in the
added writings of Kalm where he got information from the oldest
Swedes, 8from other paragraphs in the book they must have been at
least 80 because he speaks of 80-90 year old Swedes). You know the
added information when the Swedes first came to Amerika. You know
the part called 'Tillägg till dagboken' for example on page 1061
'De Swenskes första hijtkomst' where you also can read: ".... de
här hade intet annat folk at umgås med, än de willa indianer, så
aftogo de mer och mer i åtbörder från de Europeiska och gamla
Swenska, och började likna mer och mer indianerna, så at vid
Engelsmännernas hijtkomst de Swenske til en stor del icke voro
bättre stort än willa indianer...."
Short summery: The Swedes had when they first arrived no other than
the natives to be together with so their maners changed more and
more from the European and the Old Swedish. Thus the Swedes came to
look and act more and more like the natives. When the English
arrived the Swedes was living almost as the natives......

"Are there any or many known early European settlers in

southern

Post by Alaca

Post by Alaca
Canada north of the Great Lakes, apart of course from

trappers

Post by Alaca

Post by Alaca
who hardly cultivated lime trees in avenues in front of their

houses."

Post by Alaca
Are those trappers the same as these wild old Swedes?
BTW. If I was a trapper I loved a row of trees in front of my house.

Guess you would. Anyhow those weren't trappers. They were more like the
'torpare' we had here. People who lived on small land according to other
notes of Pehr Kalm they were said to have had 1-2 cows, a few pigs and some
other kettles. Who they were? That at least I don't know for sure. That they
also might have hunted birds and other animals that doesn't make them
trappers you know.
Inger E

Post by Alaca
--
-- Peter Alaca --

(nothing snipped EVER by David H)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If Svenska pioneers were growing lime trees
or other citrus,
they were probably living near the frost line
which runs thru Florida. Where did they get
the seeds ? My hunch is Bermuda where the
oranges are green not orange due to the
tropical weather (cold weather makes the
fruit look orange).

IEJ: we know were their seed came from. That's also told by Kalm. They had
taken that with them from the old country. Apart from that it's the tree
people in US call Linden we call it 'lind' and in the dictionary it said
lime-tree. I have never had any reason looking the tree's English name up.
Neither in British-English or any other dictionary. Thus I used 'lime-tree'
since that was what the short dictionary at hand said.

Inger E

[Alaca]

(P.A. snipped the ten meters left by DH and IEJ)

Post by d***@ev1.net
[...]
(nothing snipped EVER by David H)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If Svenska pioneers were growing lime trees
or other citrus,
they were probably living near the frost line
which runs thru Florida. Where did they get
the seeds ? My hunch is Bermuda where the
oranges are green not orange due to the
tropical weather (cold weather makes the
fruit look orange).
IEJ: we know were their seed came from. That's also told by Kalm.
They had taken that with them from the old country. Apart from that
it's the tree people in US call Linden we call it 'lind' and in the
dictionary it said lime-tree. I have never had any reason looking
the tree's English name up. Neither in British-English or any other
dictionary. Thus I used 'lime-tree' since that was what the short
dictionary at hand said.

Inger, are you sure Kalm wrote about that seeds?
I'lI believe it when I see it, but I can't imagine why the emigrants
bothered to take Tilia seeds with them as there was already
Tilia americana growing in the region.
Personally I love Tilia, and it's a joy to have them near the home,
but it is not the most usefull plant I can think of to take with me to the
america's. Vegetable seeds and fruit tree cuttings yes, but Tilia?

Kalm was a botanist and pupil(?) of Lineus. Didn't he tell wat species
of Tilia he found, or that it was an unknown species to him?

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by Alaca
(P.A. snipped the ten meters left by DH and IEJ)

Post by d***@ev1.net
[...]
(nothing snipped EVER by David H)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If Svenska pioneers were growing lime trees
or other citrus,
they were probably living near the frost line
which runs thru Florida. Where did they get
the seeds ? My hunch is Bermuda where the
oranges are green not orange due to the
tropical weather (cold weather makes the
fruit look orange).
IEJ: we know were their seed came from. That's also told by Kalm.
They had taken that with them from the old country. Apart from that
it's the tree people in US call Linden we call it 'lind' and in the
dictionary it said lime-tree. I have never had any reason looking
the tree's English name up. Neither in British-English or any other
dictionary. Thus I used 'lime-tree' since that was what the short
dictionary at hand said.

Inger, are you sure Kalm wrote about that seeds?

YES. I will write exact lines next time I am not tonight.

Post by Alaca
I'lI believe it when I see it, but I can't imagine why the emigrants
bothered to take Tilia seeds with them as there was already
Tilia americana growing in the region.

My very thought when I first read about it. BUT they did. For the seed and
some other we know direct from text. Others we can understand from the fact
that the species are typical Swedish(not Norwegian for everyone...) and that
they only grow either in areas where the early Swedes lived including in
Canada + found close to the lines of fruittree, most of them appletrees, in
the middle of the woods where housegrounds and broken pottery been found
before Kalm's visit.

Post by Alaca
Personally I love Tilia, and it's a joy to have them near the home,
but it is not the most usefull plant I can think of to take with me to the
america's. Vegetable seeds and fruit tree cuttings yes, but Tilia?

You would be surprised if you had written down a list from Kalm's notes of
what's he was told they brought with them. Mind you I am not surprised. Not
since I checked the species against linnaeus.se(
http://linnaeus.nrm.se/flora/) and checked where this and that origin, where
they grow etc. Not at all surprised.

Post by Alaca
Kalm was a botanist and pupil(?) of Lineus. Didn't he tell wat species
of Tilia he found, or that it was an unknown species to him?

As I am no botanist and aren't used to use the word 'Tilia' I can't say for
that one but he was very very careful to note species as well as every
single detail there was to note when it was unknown species he had in front
of him.

Inger E

Post by Alaca
--
-- Peter Alaca --

[David B]

If Svenska pioneers were growing lime trees or other citrus, they
were probably living near the frost line which runs thru Florida.
Where did they get the seeds ? My hunch is Bermuda where the
oranges are green not orange due to the tropical weather (cold
weather makes the fruit look orange).

The tree name "lime" has historically been used in Britain for trees of the
Tilia family, more commonly referred to in the USA by the German name
linden. Lime fruit trees, of the Citrus family are not at issue here, as
Pehr Kalm was referring to the linden/lime.


David B.

[Alaca]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by Alaca

Post by I.E_Johansson
new subject line derived from answer to Daryl's message sent 31
Jan 2005 19:21:55 local time of Daryl's.
<snip>

Daryl,
it's not in volume 1-3 which have been translated into English.
It's in volume 4. I sent the ISBN number in an answer to tk.
951-9018-43-3 editor svenska litteratursällskapet i Finland,
edited Helsingfors 1988. The full journal of volume 4 without
editor's hand on has been edited by John E Roos and Harry
Krogerus in 1988. I am sorry but I don't have the ISBN number
for that work.
One title Pehr Kalms resa till Norra Amerika and the other in form of

a

Resejournal över resan till Norra Amerika.

I have access to microfilm copies of the books written
by Pehr Kalms.
If you give me the original page number,
and the original tile of the book,
then I can read Kalms' reference to
avenues of cultivated lime trees.
The original title of the book is volume 4, but of course I can
get in for you it's after page 1000 that I know and parts is in
the added writings of Kalm where he got information from the
oldest Swedes, 8from other paragraphs in the book they must have
been at least 80 because he speaks of 80-90 year old Swedes).
You know the added information when the Swedes first came to
Amerika. You know the part called 'Tillägg till dagboken' for
example on page 1061 'De Swenskes första hijtkomst' where you
also can read: ".... de här hade intet annat folk at umgås med,
än de willa indianer, så aftogo de mer och mer i åtbörder från de
Europeiska och gamla Swenska, och började likna mer och mer
indianerna, så at vid Engelsmännernas hijtkomst de Swenske til en
stor del icke voro bättre stort än willa indianer...."
Short summery: The Swedes had when they first arrived no other
than the natives to be together with so their maners changed more
and more from the European and the Old Swedish. Thus the Swedes
came to look and act more and more like the natives. When the
English arrived the Swedes was living almost as the natives......

"Are there any or many known early European settlers in
southern Canada north of the Great Lakes, apart of course
from trappers who hardly cultivated lime trees in avenues in
front of their houses."
Are those trappers the same as these wild old Swedes?
BTW. If I was a trapper I loved a row of trees in front of my
house.

Guess you would. Anyhow those weren't trappers. They were more like
the 'torpare' we had here. People who lived on small land according
to other notes of Pehr Kalm they were said to have had 1-2 cows, a
few pigs and some other kettles. Who they were? That at least I
don't know for sure. That they also might have hunted birds and
other animals that doesn't make them trappers you know.

Inger
I know wht is usally meant by trappers, but didn't they have homes
and were there no Swedish trappers?
And what makes you so sure that trappers "hardly cultivated [lime]
trees [in avenues] in front of their houses."
Did the old Swedes, maybe one or two generations earlier?

[george]

Post by Alaca
Inger
I know wht is usally meant by trappers, but didn't they have homes
and were there no Swedish trappers?
And what makes you so sure that trappers "hardly cultivated [lime]
trees [in avenues] in front of their houses."
Did the old Swedes, maybe one or two generations earlier?
--

Sounds a little like the settlers in the area planted orchids.
Trapping (in the Americas) was a winter occupation (that's when the
furs are better quality)

[Daryl Krupa]

Post by I.E_Johansson
new subject line derived from answer to Daryl's message sent 31 Jan 2005
19:21:55 local time of Daryl's.
<snip>

Daryl,
it's not in volume 1-3 which have been translated into English.
It's in volume 4. I sent the ISBN number in an answer to tk.
951-9018-43-3 editor svenska litteratursällskapet i Finland,
edited Helsingfors 1988. The full journal of volume 4 without
editor's hand on has been edited by John E Roos and Harry Krogerus
in 1988. I am sorry but I don't have the ISBN number for that work.
One title Pehr Kalms resa till Norra Amerika and the other
Resejournal över resan till Norra Amerika.

I have access to microfilm copies of the books written
by Pehr Kalms.
If you give me the original page number,
and the original tile of the book,
then I can read Kalms' reference to
avenues of cultivated lime trees.
The original title of the book is volume 4, but of course
I can get in for you it's after page 1000 that I know and
parts is in the added writings of Kalm where he got
information from the oldest Swedes, 8from other paragraphs
in the book they must have been at least 80 because he
speaks of 80-90 year old Swedes). You know the added
information when the Swedes first came to Amerika.
You know the part called 'Tillägg till dagboken'
for example on page 1061 'De Swenskes första hijtkomst'

Inger:
In my copy, those headings seem to be
"Addenda to the Diary" and The Arrival of the First Swedes".
Under that is "September the 18th, 1748."
Is that date shown in your copy, too?

Post by I.E_Johansson
".... de här hade intet annat folk at umgås med,
än de willa indianer, så aftogo de mer och mer i åtbörder
från de Europeiska och gamla Swenska,
och började likna mer och mer indianerna,
så at vid Engelsmännernas hijtkomst
de Swenske til en stor del icke voro bättre
stort än willa indianer...."
Short summery: The Swedes had when they first arrived
no other than the natives to be together with
so their maners changed more and more
from the European and the Old Swedish.
Thus the Swedes came to look and act more and more
like the natives.
When the English arrived the Swedes was living
almost as the natives......

Here's what I have:
"And since they had
no other people to associate with than the native Indians,
they soon began to differ more and more
in their actions and manners
from the Europeans and old Swedes
and began to resemble the Indians.
At the arrival of the English, therefore, the Swedes
to a large extent were not much better than savages."

Just before that passage is one that describes how they
would ride to New Amsterdam (later New York) and buy salt
from the Dutch there.
Just after that passage is one that describes the first
governor of the Swedish colony, one [Johan] Printz, who
sought pardon for his crimes in the Thirty Years War by
promising to found a colony in America, and that he took
a boatload of fellow convicts there and became the first
governor of the Swedish colony.
Also that because they received no support from Sweden,
they surrendered to the Dutch, who came to live among them,
and that later, when the English seized the territory,
most of the Dutch left for Surinam.

There is also a footnote that
"The first Swedish settlers landed on the Delaware in 1638."
That matches the story told by Peter Rambo on the next page
about his grandfather, another Peter Rambo, arriving
four years after the first Swedish settler, in 1642.
It also says that that older Rambo told the Englishmen,
when they came, that he was the first to grow European
seed in the Swedish settlement.
It also says that because he had prospered, Governor Penn
had often chosen his home to lodge in, and that he gave
free food and lodging to everyone that came to him.
It seems that not every Swede was living like an Indian
when the Englishmen came.

I see no mention of lime trees, or any trees at all in
the part dated September the 18th, 1748, except for this:
"The original Peter Rambo, when he emigrated, had brought
apple seeds and several other tree and garden seeds with him
in a box."

Can you tell me, please, how the story of Swedes living like
Indians is connected to Lime Trees?

-
Daryl Krupa

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by I.E_Johansson
new subject line derived from answer to Daryl's message sent 31 Jan 2005
19:21:55 local time of Daryl's.
<snip>

Daryl,
it's not in volume 1-3 which have been translated into English.
It's in volume 4. I sent the ISBN number in an answer to tk.
951-9018-43-3 editor svenska litteratursällskapet i Finland,
edited Helsingfors 1988. The full journal of volume 4 without
editor's hand on has been edited by John E Roos and Harry Krogerus
in 1988. I am sorry but I don't have the ISBN number for that work.
One title Pehr Kalms resa till Norra Amerika and the other
Resejournal över resan till Norra Amerika.

I have access to microfilm copies of the books written
by Pehr Kalms.
If you give me the original page number,
and the original tile of the book,
then I can read Kalms' reference to
avenues of cultivated lime trees.
The original title of the book is volume 4, but of course
I can get in for you it's after page 1000 that I know and
parts is in the added writings of Kalm where he got
information from the oldest Swedes, 8from other paragraphs
in the book they must have been at least 80 because he
speaks of 80-90 year old Swedes). You know the added
information when the Swedes first came to Amerika.
You know the part called 'Tillägg till dagboken'
for example on page 1061 'De Swenskes första hijtkomst'

Inger:
In my copy, those headings seem to be
"Addenda to the Diary" and The Arrival of the First Swedes".
Under that is "September the 18th, 1748."
Is that date shown in your copy, too?

IEJ: depending on if you use the old Calenderdates or the new ones. In the
old it was 7th September 1748 and Kalm wrote both dates. Btw Do you happen
to know when and why the dates were changed. I can guess it has something to
do with the fact that the extra day we have today each 4th year(well not
all, I know that) and the fact that a year is a bit longer than the days we
give it, but I can't seem to remember why the changed occured in mid 1700's.
Do you?

Post by I.E_Johansson
".... de här hade intet annat folk at umgås med,
än de willa indianer, så aftogo de mer och mer i åtbörder
från de Europeiska och gamla Swenska,
och började likna mer och mer indianerna,
så at vid Engelsmännernas hijtkomst
de Swenske til en stor del icke voro bättre
stort än willa indianer...."
Short summery: The Swedes had when they first arrived
no other than the natives to be together with
so their maners changed more and more
from the European and the Old Swedish.
Thus the Swedes came to look and act more and more
like the natives.
When the English arrived the Swedes was living
almost as the natives......

Here's what I have:
"And since they had
no other people to associate with than the native Indians,
they soon began to differ more and more
in their actions and manners
from the Europeans and old Swedes
and began to resemble the Indians.
At the arrival of the English, therefore, the Swedes
to a large extent were not much better than savages."

Just before that passage is one that describes how they
would ride to New Amsterdam (later New York) and buy salt
from the Dutch there.
Just after that passage is one that describes the first
governor of the Swedish colony, one [Johan] Printz, who
sought pardon for his crimes in the Thirty Years War by
promising to found a colony in America, and that he took
a boatload of fellow convicts there and became the first
governor of the Swedish colony.
Also that because they received no support from Sweden,
they surrendered to the Dutch, who came to live among them,
and that later, when the English seized the territory,
most of the Dutch left for Surinam.

There is also a footnote that
"The first Swedish settlers landed on the Delaware in 1638."
That matches the story told by Peter Rambo on the next page
about his grandfather, another Peter Rambo, arriving
four years after the first Swedish settler, in 1642.
It also says that that older Rambo told the Englishmen,
when they came, that he was the first to grow European
seed in the Swedish settlement.
It also says that because he had prospered, Governor Penn
had often chosen his home to lodge in, and that he gave
free food and lodging to everyone that came to him.
It seems that not every Swede was living like an Indian
when the Englishmen came.

I see no mention of lime trees, or any trees at all in
the part dated September the 18th, 1748, except for this:
"The original Peter Rambo, when he emigrated, had brought
apple seeds and several other tree and garden seeds with him
in a box."


The Lind isn't in that one but I gave you that ref as an example of how much
more than what you and I would have thought possible the Swedes, I guess
especially the Swedes but I don't know for sure, brought with them. I have
looked at the dating of the year-rings of a special type of Oak found. Can't
remember the page now. It's in volume 3 and volume 3 I read in my bedroom,
volume 4 I have on my desk(I read Kalm's letter in my kitchen..... books all
over our flat.....) I know from other documentation, not Kalm's but older,
that many from Sweden who migrated used to take a sprout of their
home-farm's 'vårdträ' sometimes an 'Alm' sometimes an 'Oak'(if they were
Noblemen or of Royal blood). The interesting thing, I will return with pages
for that as well as the linden, is that the Oaks dated to around 350 year
Kalm found on his way to Quebec from Philadelphia and I take it you remember
the treecut we discussed not so long ago where the rings went back to second
half 1300's? 1747-350 definitely puts the oaks of Kalm planted close to same
period./IEJ

Can you tell me, please, how the story of Swedes living like
Indians is connected to Lime Trees?

I can but at present not in public. If you want to be included in latest
discussion and information exchange I can ask for you to receive information
directly or I can send you a summery now and then.

Inger E

-
Daryl Krupa

[Alaca]

[...]
I have looked at the dating of the year-rings of a special type of Oak
found.
[...]
The interesting thing, [...] for that as well as the linden, is that the
Oaks
dated to around 350 year Kalm found on his way to Quebec from
Philadelphia

Inger,
(Confusing there are no ">" in front of your quotes.)
Im am interested in trees and dendrodating.

Please tell me if I'm wrong in understanding the following:
- Kalm mentioned an old oak between Philadelphia and Quebec
- Someone cut this oak
- Kalm counted the rings (himself?).
- Kalm counted c. 350 year rings.
Here I'm not so sure
- Kalm mentioned also that he found old Linden/Lime trees
- They were cut
- Kalm counted the rings
- Kalm counted c. 350 year rings

If Kalm saw these trees himself they can be dated very close around 1400.

My questions:
- What do you mean with a special TYPE of oak?
Was it a special SPECIES or a special SPECIMEN?

- What species of oak (Quercus) was it?
- What species of Linden/Lime (Tilia) was it?

I think the last two questions ar essential for your theory.
You HAVE to know if it were American or European species.

[Alan Crozier]

"I.E_Johansson" <***@telia.com> wrote in message news:V7NMd.129544$***@newsc.telia.net...
<huge snip>

Post by I.E_Johansson
IEJ: depending on if you use the old Calenderdates or the new ones. In the
old it was 7th September 1748 and Kalm wrote both dates. Btw Do you happen
to know when and why the dates were changed. I can guess it has something to
do with the fact that the extra day we have today each 4th year(well not
all, I know that) and the fact that a year is a bit longer than the days we
give it, but I can't seem to remember why the changed occured in mid 1700's.
Do you?

Try typing the words

change gregorian calendar sweden

and follow some of the many links which will lead you to new enlightenment.

Alan

[d***@ev1.net]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't know if you ever heard of 'Ädelträd' usually it's translated to the
English word 'high-grade wood' but that's not correct it's more like a Noble
tree. To the 'Ädelträd' we in Sweden, don't know about other countries,
include 'ek' (oak), 'alm'(Elm), 'bok' (beech), lind (linden) and some other
trees for which there are special laws up to this day. You aren't allowed to
cut down an 'ädelträd' just because you as an owner of the land it grow on
want's to, if you do you have commited a crime. Most people today who don't
own forrest(s) aren't aware of this.
Anyhow the oak was a Royal tree but the Linden was the tree of the Godess
Freja/Fröja. The Linden tree symbolized fertility for the females as the oak
did for the man. It was the tree of Love with big 'L'.
But the tree also symbolized sincerity and gravity and showed that the
person who owned a house was a responsible person to deal with.

On the medical herb-treatment side one better remember that the
linden-flower was used in tea if you had fever, if you had problems with
oedema/edema or your kidneys but also to stop cramp/spasm and so on.
A Swedish text to read for those who can:
http://www.novator.se/bioenergy/text94_95/lind.html

Inger E

[Todd A. Farmerie]

Post by I.E_Johansson
The Linden tree symbolized fertility for the females as the oak
did for the man. It was the tree of Love with big 'L'.

Or perhaps Love with big 'O' ?

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by Todd A. Farmerie

Post by I.E_Johansson
The Linden tree symbolized fertility for the females as the oak
did for the man. It was the tree of Love with big 'L'.

Or perhaps Love with big 'O' ?

No. Could have been but wasn't. The interesting thing is that it was under
the linden many of the earliest 'thing' meetings are said to have been held.
Wonder how those meeting used the symbols and their own laws :-)

Inger E

[Doug Weller]

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?

Why do you think these aren't native trees?

Doug

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by Doug Weller

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?

Why do you think these aren't native trees?

You aren't a scholar of biologic isotops where linden grows. That's for
sure.

Inger E

Post by Doug Weller
Doug
--
Doug Weller -- exorcise the demon to reply
Doug & Helen's Dogs http://www.dougandhelen.com
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk

[Alaca]

Post by I.E_Johansson

On 4 Feb 2005 18:58:14 -0800, in sci.archaeology,

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?

Why do you think these aren't native trees?

You aren't a scholar of biologic isotops where linden grows. That's
for sure.

I never heard of a "scholar of biologic isotops where linden grows".
Are there any at the famous Uppsala University Department of Plant Ecology?

[Doug Weller]

Post by Alaca

Post by I.E_Johansson

On 4 Feb 2005 18:58:14 -0800, in sci.archaeology,

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?

Why do you think these aren't native trees?

You aren't a scholar of biologic isotops where linden grows. That's
for sure.

I never heard of a "scholar of biologic isotops where linden grows".
Are there any at the famous Uppsala University Department of Plant Ecology?

:-)

Note that whatever that is, Inger certainly isn't one either!

Doug

[Alaca]

Post by Doug Weller

Post by Alaca

Post by I.E_Johansson

On 4 Feb 2005 18:58:14 -0800, in sci.archaeology,

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?

Why do you think these aren't native trees?

You aren't a scholar of biologic isotops where linden grows.
That's for sure.

I never heard of a "scholar of biologic isotops where linden
grows".
Are there any at the famous Uppsala University Department of Plant Ecology?

:-)
Note that whatever that is, Inger certainly isn't one either!

But if she intended the stress on "you", she thinks she is. That's for sure.

[Doug Weller]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by Doug Weller

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?

Why do you think these aren't native trees?

You aren't a scholar of biologic isotops where linden grows. That's for
sure.

Once again, insult instead of a response.

Presumably because Inger doesn't have an answer.

Tilia americana is the name for American Linden, aka basswood. There's a
lot of it about. Kalm's is probably T. americana var. americana - if Inger
wants to claim it was really cordata or something like that, let her
provide real evidence.

Doug

[Daryl Krupa]

Doug Weller wrote:
<snip>

Post by Doug Weller
Tilia americana is the name for American Linden,
aka basswood. There's a lot of it about.
Kalm's is probably T. americana var. americana

<snip>

I see three mentions of Tilia.

One is in the September 18, 1748, species list
of trees near Philadelphia, as
"_Tilia americana_, the lime tree, in a good soil."

Two mentions do not give a species name; both
refer to trees near Lac Champlain.
One of those, from October 20, 1749, says
"... the linden (_Tilia_) ...".
The other, from the next day, says
"Linden or basswood (_Tilia_). The French called
the kind of linden which grew abundantly in the
woods _bois blanc_ (white wood)."
The Indians are said to process the bark by
boiling it in lye and pounding it to make
a coarse fibre that is then woven into carrying bags.

Did Scandinavians make the linden bark into cloth?

-
Daryl Krupa

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by I.E_Johansson
<snip>

Post by Doug Weller
Tilia americana is the name for American Linden,
aka basswood. There's a lot of it about.
Kalm's is probably T. americana var. americana

<snip>
I see three mentions of Tilia.
One is in the September 18, 1748, species list
of trees near Philadelphia, as
"_Tilia americana_, the lime tree, in a good soil."
Two mentions do not give a species name; both
refer to trees near Lac Champlain.
One of those, from October 20, 1749, says
"... the linden (_Tilia_) ...".
The other, from the next day, says
"Linden or basswood (_Tilia_). The French called
the kind of linden which grew abundantly in the
woods _bois blanc_ (white wood)."
The Indians are said to process the bark by
boiling it in lye and pounding it to make
a coarse fibre that is then woven into carrying bags.
Did Scandinavians make the linden bark into cloth?

Well I have heard that it was used in a more modern way to make linden as
well as silver fir bark into fibres for cloth during the second World War,
and I know that I have "heard" something about it being mixed with animal
hair, dog as well as reindeer, long ago but what happened in between in
other words during Medieval Age I am not sure about. Will have to check it
on Monday with a scholar who knows.

Inger E

Post by I.E_Johansson
-
Daryl Krupa

[Alaca]

Post by I.E_Johansson
<snip>

Post by Doug Weller
Tilia americana is the name for American Linden,
aka basswood. There's a lot of it about.
Kalm's is probably T. americana var. americana <snip>

I see three mentions of Tilia.
One is in the September 18, 1748, species list
of trees near Philadelphia, as
"_Tilia americana_, the lime tree, in a good soil."
Two mentions do not give a species name; both
refer to trees near Lac Champlain.
One of those, from October 20, 1749, says
"... the linden (_Tilia_) ...".
The other, from the next day, says
"Linden or basswood (_Tilia_). The French called
the kind of linden which grew abundantly in the
woods _bois blanc_ (white wood)."
The Indians are said to process the bark by
boiling it in lye and pounding it to make
a coarse fibre that is then woven into carrying bags.
Did Scandinavians make the linden bark into cloth?

Facts at last. Thank you Daryl.
One species mentioned: Tilia Americana.
The bois blanc maybe is the White or Mountain basswood -
Tilia Americana ssp heterophylla
Just one species: Tilia Americana. No import.
Good (loamy) soil is normal for Tilia in Europe too.
I think I heard before about the use of linden bark fibres
in Europe. The wood is excelent for carving and was also
used for kitchenware.

[Renia]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by Doug Weller

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?

Why do you think these aren't native trees?

You aren't a scholar of biologic isotops where linden grows. That's for
sure.

Isn't she wonderful? Only Inger could come up with something meaningless
like this.

Renia

[l***@cs.com]

meddelandet

Post by Renia

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by Doug Weller

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?

Why do you think these aren't native trees?

You aren't a scholar of biologic isotops where linden grows. That's for
sure.

Isn't she wonderful? Only Inger could come up with something

meaningless

Post by Renia
like this.
Renia

Whatever the true genus of those linden/basswood trees, they would have
been associated by both pagan and christian settlers as symbolizing a
cultural value; 'the female principle'.

I am a bit surprised to see Johansson mention this as pertaining to
Swedish culture - as I had only known of it (until now) still being
recognized in modern Baltic (Latvian and Lithuanian) societal
tradition.

There, the linden symbolizes the female - the oak symbolizes the male.
The cultivation of either could be construed as being a re-affirmation
of cultural continuity. There is no doubt about this.
..

Secondary:
As someone else mentioned.. the greatest economic advantage of
linden/basswood is in its suitability as a carving wood. The grain
structure of the wood makes it a top choice for easily carving items in
detail. I know, I've carved a few blocks of it. I understand that it
also was used to carve a lot of patterns used in metal casting.

Uno Hu

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by I.E_Johansson
meddelandet

Post by Renia

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by Doug Weller

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?

Why do you think these aren't native trees?

You aren't a scholar of biologic isotops where linden grows. That's

for

Post by Renia

Post by I.E_Johansson
sure.

Isn't she wonderful? Only Inger could come up with something

meaningless

Post by Renia
like this.
Renia

Whatever the true genus of those linden/basswood trees, they would have
been associated by both pagan and christian settlers as symbolizing a
cultural value; 'the female principle'.
I am a bit surprised to see Johansson mention this as pertaining to
Swedish culture - as I had only known of it (until now) still being
recognized in modern Baltic (Latvian and Lithuanian) societal
tradition.

Well little do we know of each others culture no matter that the Baltic area
and Sweden have long traditions of close contact of different kinds going
back to the far distant Pre-Historic Era.
I didn't know that you in the Baltic countries had this tradition as well.
My note about the Pre-Historic Era is due to the fact that at least some of
the flint found in Östergötland origin from the Baltic side of the Sea
probably because it was easier travelling on water than in deep wooden areas
and over hills down to Skåne where the other flint-area close to
Östergötland is.
This part I have up in my C-essay/thesis Vattenvägarna in mot Roxen i äldre
tider, History Dept, Linköping's university 1993.

Post by I.E_Johansson
There, the linden symbolizes the female - the oak symbolizes the male.
The cultivation of either could be construed as being a re-affirmation
of cultural continuity. There is no doubt about this.
..

second that.

Post by I.E_Johansson
As someone else mentioned.. the greatest economic advantage of
linden/basswood is in its suitability as a carving wood. The grain
structure of the wood makes it a top choice for easily carving items in
detail. I know, I've carved a few blocks of it. I understand that it
also was used to carve a lot of patterns used in metal casting.

No knowledge or experience in that area at all. Sounds interesting.

Inger E

Post by I.E_Johansson
Uno Hu

[treasure]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by I.E_Johansson
meddelandet

Post by Doug Weller

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?

Why do you think these aren't native trees?

SNIP

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by I.E_Johansson
Whatever the true genus of those linden/basswood trees, they would have
been associated by both pagan and christian settlers as symbolizing a
cultural value; 'the female principle'.
I am a bit surprised to see Johansson mention this as pertaining to
Swedish culture - as I had only known of it (until now) still being
recognized in modern Baltic (Latvian and Lithuanian) societal
tradition.

Well little do we know of each others culture no matter that the Baltic area
and Sweden have long traditions of close contact of different kinds going
back to the far distant Pre-Historic Era.
I didn't know that you in the Baltic countries had this tradition as well.
SNIP
This part I have up in my C-essay/thesis Vattenvägarna in mot Roxen i äldre
tider, History Dept, Linköping's university 1993.

Post by I.E_Johansson
There, the linden symbolizes the female - the oak symbolizes the male.
The cultivation of either could be construed as being a re-affirmation
of cultural continuity. There is no doubt about this.
..

second that.

Post by I.E_Johansson
As someone else mentioned.. the greatest economic advantage of
linden/basswood is in its suitability as a carving wood. The grain
structure of the wood makes it a top choice for easily carving items in
detail. I know, I've carved a few blocks of it. I understand that it
also was used to carve a lot of patterns used in metal casting.

No knowledge or experience in that area at all. Sounds interesting.
Inger E

Post by I.E_Johansson
Uno Hu

From what I have seen the American Basswood seems to have larger leaves,
flowers and calyxes(?) (the yellow leaf-like structure next to the flower)
compared to the European Linden. I believe they also grow larger. Definitely
different varieties.

In "A Modern Herbal" by Mrs. M. Grieve it says wood is white, excellent for
carving, allowing for great sharpness in minute details, but not for use
where strength and durability are required. For the anglophiles, the flower
and figure carvings by one Grinley Gibbons in St. Pauls Cathedral, Windsor
Castle and Chatsworth are done in linden.
The inner bark can be made into fibres, baskets, and "In Sweden, the
inner bark, seperated by maceration so as to form a kind of flax, has been
employed to make fishing-nets". So if your Swede immigrants were fishermen
this might be your explanation right there.

As for economic use, let us not forget the wonderful linden or limeblossom
tea made from the flowers. Smells delightful when trees are in bloom. The
Chinese also believe the calyx (or false-leaf?) has medicinal properties.
The seeds are edible, and one old-timer wrote in a local paper that they
used to be sold in US Midwest in first half of last century under the name
'monkey nuts". Relatives from Lithuanian have mentioned chewing on them, as
kids. And lime-blossom honey is quite prized.

By the way in modern American folk-magic practice the linden is considered a
protective tree, with branches hung over the door for this purpose. The
bark is carried to prevent intoxication, the heart-shaped leaves and flowers
are used in love spells. Leaves are used in spells of immortalility. Mixed
with lavendar to cure insomnia. Good luck charms are carved from the wood.

Laima palaimink,

-Kovas

[l***@cs.com]

Post by treasure
From what I have seen the American Basswood seems to have larger leaves,
flowers and calyxes(?) (the yellow leaf-like structure next to the flower)
compared to the European Linden. I believe they also grow larger. Definitely
different varieties.
In "A Modern Herbal" by Mrs. M. Grieve it says wood is white,

excellent for

Post by treasure
carving, allowing for great sharpness in minute details, but not for use
where strength and durability are required. For the anglophiles, the flower
and figure carvings by one Grinley Gibbons in St. Pauls Cathedral, Windsor
Castle and Chatsworth are done in linden.
The inner bark can be made into fibres, baskets, and "In Sweden, the
inner bark, seperated by maceration so as to form a kind of flax, has been
employed to make fishing-nets". So if your Swede immigrants were fishermen
this might be your explanation right there.
As for economic use, let us not forget the wonderful linden or

limeblossom

Post by treasure
tea made from the flowers. Smells delightful when trees are in bloom. The
Chinese also believe the calyx (or false-leaf?) has medicinal

properties.

Post by treasure
The seeds are edible, and one old-timer wrote in a local paper that they
used to be sold in US Midwest in first half of last century under the name
'monkey nuts". Relatives from Lithuanian have mentioned chewing on them, as
kids. And lime-blossom honey is quite prized.
By the way in modern American folk-magic practice the linden is considered a
protective tree, with branches hung over the door for this purpose.

The

Post by treasure
bark is carried to prevent intoxication, the heart-shaped leaves and flowers
are used in love spells. Leaves are used in spells of immortalility.

Mixed

Post by treasure
with lavendar to cure insomnia. Good luck charms are carved from the wood.
Laima palaimink,
-Kovas

Nice addendum, Kovac.
I have yet another economic item that slipped my mind previously
regarding the Linden/Bassword previously; coppicing.

The tree has a trait of sending up many strong, straight, yet pliable
shoots around the base of the trunk. These were used by pioneers to
form the frames for basketry, fishing wiers, and other handy items.
Cutting them down only results in their replacement in 2-3 years; a
useful tree.

Uno Hu

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by treasure

Post by treasure
From what I have seen the American Basswood seems to have larger

leaves,

Post by treasure
flowers and calyxes(?) (the yellow leaf-like structure next to the

flower)

Post by treasure
compared to the European Linden. I believe they also grow larger.

Definitely

Post by treasure
different varieties.
In "A Modern Herbal" by Mrs. M. Grieve it says wood is white,

excellent for

Post by treasure
carving, allowing for great sharpness in minute details, but not for

use

Post by treasure
where strength and durability are required. For the anglophiles, the

flower

Post by treasure
and figure carvings by one Grinley Gibbons in St. Pauls Cathedral,

Windsor

Post by treasure
Castle and Chatsworth are done in linden.
The inner bark can be made into fibres, baskets, and "In

Sweden, the

Post by treasure
inner bark, seperated by maceration so as to form a kind of flax, has

been

Post by treasure
employed to make fishing-nets". So if your Swede immigrants were

fishermen

Post by treasure
this might be your explanation right there.
As for economic use, let us not forget the wonderful linden or

limeblossom

Post by treasure
tea made from the flowers. Smells delightful when trees are in

bloom. The

Post by treasure
Chinese also believe the calyx (or false-leaf?) has medicinal

properties.

Post by treasure
The seeds are edible, and one old-timer wrote in a local paper that

they

Post by treasure
used to be sold in US Midwest in first half of last century under the

name

Post by treasure
'monkey nuts". Relatives from Lithuanian have mentioned chewing on

them, as

Post by treasure
kids. And lime-blossom honey is quite prized.
By the way in modern American folk-magic practice the linden is

considered a

Post by treasure
protective tree, with branches hung over the door for this purpose.

The

Post by treasure
bark is carried to prevent intoxication, the heart-shaped leaves and

flowers

Post by treasure
are used in love spells. Leaves are used in spells of immortalility.

Mixed

Post by treasure
with lavendar to cure insomnia. Good luck charms are carved from the

wood.

Post by treasure
Laima palaimink,
-Kovas

Nice addendum, Kovac.
I have yet another economic item that slipped my mind previously
regarding the Linden/Bassword previously; coppicing.
The tree has a trait of sending up many strong, straight, yet pliable
shoots around the base of the trunk. These were used by pioneers to
form the frames for basketry, fishing wiers, and other handy items.
Cutting them down only results in their replacement in 2-3 years; a
useful tree.

First Kalm spoke of the tree we call Lind growing in avenues in the middle
of forrests/woods. Avenues means that they grow in at least two lines
heading up to a houseground or something like that. Secondly you are right
regarding the basket production and such. Problem here is that not all of
Sweden had, contrary to your Baltic country that tradition. Don't even know
if it's ever been established how long ago people here in Scandinavia began
using the shoots that way. Do you know?

Inger E

Post by treasure
Uno Hu

[l***@cs.com]

Post by I.E_Johansson
First Kalm spoke of the tree we call Lind growing in avenues in the middle
of forrests/woods. Avenues means that they grow in at least two lines
heading up to a houseground or something like that. Secondly you are right
regarding the basket production and such. Problem here is that not all of
Sweden had, contrary to your Baltic country that tradition. Don't even know
if it's ever been established how long ago people here in Scandinavia began
using the shoots that way. Do you know?
Inger E

That, I don't know. But I will take a look and inform you if I find
anything interesting.

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by I.E_Johansson
First Kalm spoke of the tree we call Lind growing in avenues in the

middle

Post by I.E_Johansson
of forrests/woods. Avenues means that they grow in at least two lines
heading up to a houseground or something like that. Secondly you are

right

Post by I.E_Johansson
regarding the basket production and such. Problem here is that not

all of

Post by I.E_Johansson
Sweden had, contrary to your Baltic country that tradition. Don't

even know

Post by I.E_Johansson
if it's ever been established how long ago people here in Scandinavia

began

Post by I.E_Johansson
using the shoots that way. Do you know?
Inger E

That, I don't know. But I will take a look and inform you if I find
anything interesting.

Thanks.
Btw have you access to the Latvian Chronicle as well as the old Annal? (I am
not talking of the now popular epos.) Please read the parts up to 1100's and
compare them with the Ipaty Annals,
then compare the information from both regarding 890-943 with information in
the Khazar papers.....
very interesting and informative. Might point directly to a Tartar
connection by some Swedish Vikings. More contact to the Khazars by others.

Inger E

[l***@cs.com]

Post by I.E_Johansson
Btw have you access to the Latvian Chronicle as well as the old Annal? (I am
not talking of the now popular epos.) Please read the parts up to 1100's and
compare them with the Ipaty Annals,
then compare the information from both regarding 890-943 with

information in

Post by I.E_Johansson
the Khazar papers.....
very interesting and informative. Might point directly to a Tartar
connection by some Swedish Vikings. More contact to the Khazars by others.
Inger E

Are you referring to the Livonian Rhymed Chronicle(s)?
If so, yes, I have read many segments of that (translated from old
German to Latvian). Unfortunately they do not correspond well with the
russian chronicles - which are russo-centric.

Only in relation to warfare between the German Baltic knights and
russians do they relate - but then only cursorily. There is also a
mis-match in the focus of dates; the German colonizers only begin their
accounts ca 1250.
..

As far as the 'Ipaty Annals' are concerned..
Is this the same as the 1400's Hypatian redaction?:

"Hypatian Chronicle. Compendium of three chronicles: Nestor the
Chronicler 'Povist' vremennykh lit' (Tale of Bygone Years, ca 1110)
with some alterations, particularly at the end of the text, the Kyiv
Chronicle of the 12th century, and the Galician-Volhynian Chronicle.
The oldest redaction of the compendium, dating back to the early 15th
century, was discovered by Nikolai Karamzin at the Hypatian Monastery
in Kostroma, Russia."

If so, I have read a translation of Nestor's 'Povist Vremennykh Let'
(Also known as the 'Primary Chronicle'); or 1/3 of of the entire
Hypatian 1400's redaction.

I would greatly love to read any of the manuscripts in their original
OCS form, and if anyone can point to online images of the text (or the
other two), I would greatly appreciate it.

There is something else to consider when reading; the fact that Nestor
was writing his chronicle as a hagiography.
Nestor's primary purpose was to serve his church's political goals.
Additionally, his work had to be approved by the reigning russian
monarch or knaz (his work had to be 'politically correct'). The oldest
Nestorian tracts exhibit numerous erasures and modifications.
..

What Khazar papers are you referring to?

Uno Hu

PS: I can recommend Arthur Koestler's work; 'The Thirteenth Tribe The
Khazar Empire and its Heritage' as a very nice *overview* of the
subject.

I am rarely impressed by individuals, but was much impressed by
Koestler's wonderfully insightful mind.

"Mr. Koestler was an Ashkenazi Jew and took pride in his Khazar
ancestry. He was also a very talented and successful writer who
published over 25 novels and essays."

"As expected, The Thirteenth Tribe caused a stir when published in
1976, since it demolishes ancient racial and ethnic dogmas...At the
height of the controversy in 1983, the lifeless bodies of Arthur
Koestler and his wife were found in their London home. Despite
significant inconsistencies, the police ruled their death a suicide..."

Loading Image...

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by I.E_Johansson
Btw have you access to the Latvian Chronicle as well as the old

Annal? (I am

Post by I.E_Johansson
not talking of the now popular epos.) Please read the parts up to

1100's and

Post by I.E_Johansson
compare them with the Ipaty Annals,
then compare the information from both regarding 890-943 with

information in

Post by I.E_Johansson
the Khazar papers.....
very interesting and informative. Might point directly to a Tartar
connection by some Swedish Vikings. More contact to the Khazars by

others.

Post by I.E_Johansson
Inger E

Are you referring to the Livonian Rhymed Chronicle(s)?
If so, yes, I have read many segments of that (translated from old
German to Latvian). Unfortunately they do not correspond well with the
russian chronicles - which are russo-centric.

Yes if they are, but if you look at story period 880 to 950 and then to
1080 - 1240 in them some very interesting information turns up.

Post by I.E_Johansson
Only in relation to warfare between the German Baltic knights and
russians do they relate - but then only cursorily. There is also a
mis-match in the focus of dates; the German colonizers only begin their
accounts ca 1250.
..

When a Med.Dr. married to a friend of mine worked in Latvia for a while he
had with him one Chronicle/Annal which went back to 8th century. Any idea
what he got?

Post by I.E_Johansson
As far as the 'Ipaty Annals' are concerned..

Not exactly if my Russian scholar friends have got it correct. The later
they told me was based on the former but also included parts which can be
found in the Novgorod Chronicle. It's long ago since I worked with those
sources.

Post by I.E_Johansson
"Hypatian Chronicle. Compendium of three chronicles: Nestor the
Chronicler 'Povist' vremennykh lit' (Tale of Bygone Years, ca 1110)
with some alterations, particularly at the end of the text, the Kyiv
Chronicle of the 12th century, and the Galician-Volhynian Chronicle.
The oldest redaction of the compendium, dating back to the early 15th
century, was discovered by Nikolai Karamzin at the Hypatian Monastery
in Kostroma, Russia."
If so, I have read a translation of Nestor's 'Povist Vremennykh Let'
(Also known as the 'Primary Chronicle'); or 1/3 of of the entire
Hypatian 1400's redaction.
I would greatly love to read any of the manuscripts in their original
OCS form, and if anyone can point to online images of the text (or the
other two), I would greatly appreciate it.

Who wouldn't. I had some 'pages' MSS sent in photo-form to me. It was due to
me spending time with a dictionary going thru an excavation report from
Novgorod edited in Russian language..... I had said that I never would spend
so much time trying to understand any Russian text again..... Can't say that
I would figure out enough words to make it worth while looking at the
photos..... but it was fun anyway.

Post by I.E_Johansson
There is something else to consider when reading; the fact that Nestor
was writing his chronicle as a hagiography.

Would you please explain what the word hagiography means to you. For me it
means being written in order to be a bibliography over Saints. As such I
can't see the Nestor's Chronicle when reading the full text. I guess you
might have an other understanding of the word or that you might refer to
Nestor's reason for writing the Chronicle?

Post by I.E_Johansson
Nestor's primary purpose was to serve his church's political goals.
Additionally, his work had to be approved by the reigning russian
monarch or knaz (his work had to be 'politically correct'). The oldest
Nestorian tracts exhibit numerous erasures and modifications.
..

It does.

Post by I.E_Johansson
What Khazar papers are you referring to?

When I started working with the Khazar related questions I started from:
Khazarian Hebrew Documents of the tenth Century, edit Golb Norman and
Pritsak Omeljan, London 1982
now a days Kevin who is responsible for the Khazar studies being presented
sends us who are interested information about many other now and then.
But lets start with the one above.

Inger E

Post by I.E_Johansson
PS: I can recommend Arthur Koestler's work; 'The Thirteenth Tribe The
Khazar Empire and its Heritage' as a very nice *overview* of the
subject.

Yes it's good, isn't it? Unfortunatly I haven't seen any reviews or
advertisment for it here in Sweden. I must have missed it. Can't be that the
journals have missed it. Can they?
IEJ

Post by I.E_Johansson
I am rarely impressed by individuals, but was much impressed by
Koestler's wonderfully insightful mind.
"Mr. Koestler was an Ashkenazi Jew and took pride in his Khazar
ancestry. He was also a very talented and successful writer who
published over 25 novels and essays."
"As expected, The Thirteenth Tribe caused a stir when published in
1976, since it demolishes ancient racial and ethnic dogmas...At the
height of the controversy in 1983, the lifeless bodies of Arthur
Koestler and his wife were found in their London home. Despite
significant inconsistencies, the police ruled their death a suicide..."
http://198.62.75.1/www2/koestler/k179.jpg

[Alan Crozier]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by l***@cs.com
PS: I can recommend Arthur Koestler's work; 'The Thirteenth Tribe The
Khazar Empire and its Heritage' as a very nice *overview* of the
subject.

Yes it's good, isn't it? Unfortunatly I haven't seen any reviews or
advertisment for it here in Sweden. I must have missed it. Can't be that the
journals have missed it. Can they?

The book appeared in 1976, so you'll have to go back a bit to find reviews.

Alan

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by treasure

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by I.E_Johansson
meddelandet

On 4 Feb 2005 18:58:14 -0800, in sci.archaeology,

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?

Why do you think these aren't native trees?

SNIP

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by I.E_Johansson
Whatever the true genus of those linden/basswood trees, they would have
been associated by both pagan and christian settlers as symbolizing a
cultural value; 'the female principle'.
I am a bit surprised to see Johansson mention this as pertaining to
Swedish culture - as I had only known of it (until now) still being
recognized in modern Baltic (Latvian and Lithuanian) societal
tradition.

Well little do we know of each others culture no matter that the Baltic

area

Post by I.E_Johansson
and Sweden have long traditions of close contact of different kinds going
back to the far distant Pre-Historic Era.
I didn't know that you in the Baltic countries had this tradition as well.
SNIP
This part I have up in my C-essay/thesis Vattenvägarna in mot Roxen i

äldre

Post by I.E_Johansson
tider, History Dept, Linköping's university 1993.

Post by I.E_Johansson
There, the linden symbolizes the female - the oak symbolizes the male.
The cultivation of either could be construed as being a re-affirmation
of cultural continuity. There is no doubt about this.
..

second that.

Post by I.E_Johansson
As someone else mentioned.. the greatest economic advantage of
linden/basswood is in its suitability as a carving wood. The grain
structure of the wood makes it a top choice for easily carving items in
detail. I know, I've carved a few blocks of it. I understand that it
also was used to carve a lot of patterns used in metal casting.

No knowledge or experience in that area at all. Sounds interesting.
Inger E

Post by I.E_Johansson
Uno Hu

From what I have seen the American Basswood seems to have larger leaves,
flowers and calyxes(?) (the yellow leaf-like structure next to the flower)
compared to the European Linden. I believe they also grow larger. Definitely
different varieties.
In "A Modern Herbal" by Mrs. M. Grieve it says wood is white, excellent for
carving, allowing for great sharpness in minute details, but not for use
where strength and durability are required. For the anglophiles, the flower
and figure carvings by one Grinley Gibbons in St. Pauls Cathedral, Windsor
Castle and Chatsworth are done in linden.
The inner bark can be made into fibres, baskets, and "In Sweden, the
inner bark, seperated by maceration so as to form a kind of flax, has been
employed to make fishing-nets". So if your Swede immigrants were fishermen
this might be your explanation right there.
As for economic use, let us not forget the wonderful linden or limeblossom
tea made from the flowers. Smells delightful when trees are in bloom.

The

Post by treasure
Chinese also believe the calyx (or false-leaf?) has medicinal properties.
The seeds are edible, and one old-timer wrote in a local paper that they
used to be sold in US Midwest in first half of last century under the name
'monkey nuts". Relatives from Lithuanian have mentioned chewing on them, as
kids. And lime-blossom honey is quite prized.
By the way in modern American folk-magic practice the linden is considered a
protective tree, with branches hung over the door for this purpose. The
bark is carried to prevent intoxication, the heart-shaped leaves and flowers
are used in love spells. Leaves are used in spells of immortalility.

Mixed

Post by treasure
with lavendar to cure insomnia. Good luck charms are carved from the wood.
Laima palaimink,
-Kovas

You haven't read Kalm. Please do so before you make up your mind.
Unfortunatly there are hugh misinterpretations and thus wrongly translated
words in the English versions of Kalm. If you can you better try to get hold
of the excellent French edition of Kalm's voyage to Canada, or you might try
the German editions. Your assumptions aren't correct but seems to be reached
from the English editions.

Inger E

[l***@cs.com]

treasure wrote:
" The inner bark can be made into fibres, baskets, and "In
Sweden, the inner bark, seperated by maceration so as to form a kind of
flax, has been employed to make fishing-nets". So if your Swede
immigrants were fishermen this might be your explanation right there."

"Relatives from Lithuanian have mentioned chewing on them, as
kids. And lime-blossom honey is quite prized. By the way in modern
American folk-magic practice the linden is considered a
protective tree, with branches hung over the door for this purpose.
Laima palaimink, Kovas"

Two small things I've found to add:

1)Basketry was (in some cases) used to make bee hives in proximity to
Linden trees.
2) The *Bass*wood terminology comes from the the old English term for
the US version of Lindens; *Bast*-wood':

"Centuries ago, the fibrous bark from lime was used for the "bass" or
"bast" in rope making.
"An old name for lime was "linden".

Small-leaved lime was probably far more common here in prehistoric
times. Selective felling by man caused its decline. It has always been
used for forestry, principally for coppicing as it produces long,
straight poles"

http://www.rfs.org.uk/thirdlevel.asp?

3) "A permanent system of forest cultivation called
coppice-with-standards evolved in the British Isles over the past
thousand years, which provided a large range of products-from
construction timber to fencing and furniture parts to fruits, nuts,
honey, and wild game-while maintaining continuous forest cover.
"Coppice" is the practice of cutting trees to the ground purposely to
stimulate resprouting. The word also refers to the regrowth itself.
"Standards" are the trees selected (often planted) to grow into large
timber.

The continuous cutting of small blocks of coppice creates a mosaic of
environments that offers much more diverse habitat for game animals and
birds than the native forest itself. These "fells," or management
blocks-usually no more than an acre in size- also provide patches
of higher light intensity within the forest, which in turn stimulate a
tremendous profusion of flowering and fruiting shrubs and wildflowers.

Pollarding is similar to coppicing in that the trees are regularly cut
back in order to rejuvenate the tops so that small diameter fuelwood
can be harvested. However, pollarded trees are cut not at the ground,
but about 2m (6 feet) above the ground. This practice preserved the
basic tree form and also prevented animals from browsing the tender new
sprouts.

Unlike most coniferous trees, many deciduous hardwoods will resprout
vigorously from the stump when cut. Although some of the roots die back
when the top is cut, much of the original root mass of the tree
survives. From reserves of energy in the roots, the tree regrows very
rapidly, often sprouting 10-30 new stems, which can grow 1-5 meters
(4-15 feet) in a single season. Traditionally, most woodcutting was
done during the autumn and winter, after the agricultural harvest, when
attention could be put on less critical chores. Besides helping to
balance the annual cycle of domestic labor, this practice had many
other advantages. Wood harvested while the trees are dormant is lower
in moisture and makes both longer-lasting timber and better fuel.
Winter cutting also conserved the tree's energy by matching the natural
cycle of vegetative regeneration. Temperate zone root energy reserves
are highest in the dark months of the year as the trees adapt to cold
weather by shedding their leaves and preparing for new growth in
spring.

The repeated cutting had an additional benefit that is not immediately
obvious: it prolonged the life of the trees, often two, three, or four,
times their "natural" span. There are ash "stools" (the stumps from
which regrowth occurs) in England over a thousand years old still
growing coppice.

[!!! Kalm's trees could possibly have been older than thought]

The primary design of coppice-with-standards, however, is to support
the yield of many forest products from a small area.

As each fell of mature woodland was harvested, the regrowth would be
graded by the woodsmen. Superior stems would be selected as "tellers,"
the young precursors to "standards." In addition to tellers there were
two classes of standards. Older yet were the "veterans," and in the
French system, the "oldbark" were yet more venerable. Inferior trees,
whether slower growing, prone to disease, or misshapen, would be
coppiced for poles, wattle (smaller pieces for weaving into a kind of
movable fencing for livestock), and fuelwood. The tops and branches
were sometimes fed to cattle as fodder. In modern management of
coppice-with-standards, young tellers are often planted from selected
stock after the harvest of mature overwood.

Fells were harvested about every six to seven years, the irregularity
permitting adaptation to a variable climate: a cold summer or a dry
year with poor growth could be accommodated in the system. The thinning
of the tellers and of the subsequent classes of standards was done with
a mind to maintaining an open canopy where about half the light came
directly from the sun and the other half indirectly from the sky. The
overstory was thinned to maintain optimal growth conditions both for
the remaining trees and for the underwood. The regular harvest of young
trees and of coppice kept timber and wood processing labor to a
minimum, a factor of critical importance to a society lacking power
tools or fossil fuels. Timbers were shaped with adze and froe, by hand.
Firewood and poles were cut with an axe.

The splitting of large logs, whether for firewood or fencing, was a
custom adopted by Americans in response to the conditions of their
forests: vast numbers of huge trees covered the continent when the
first settlers moved westward. In preindustrial Europe, the notion of
growing a tree to a great size, only to chop it into small pieces, was
seen as wasteful of human energy. Poles and timbers were grown to the
size needed, and no more, while fire-wood was cut at just the dimension
required for stoves and fireplaces.

Overstory and underwood were usually of different species. This made
the woodland ecologically resilient, as canopy and ground cover
exploited not only different soil layers and nutrients, but grew at
different seasons. The coppice and groundcovers did about two-thirds of
their photosynthesis for the year before the overstory came into leaf.

Oak, ash, beech, and elm were commonly the standards, while hazel,
alder, lime (linden, Tilia cordata), willow, and hornbeam were often
grown in the understory. Hazel yielded not only edible nuts, but fodder
from the young shoots, and like willow, made excellent basketry, while
lime leaves were eaten and the trees usually allowed to flower before
harvesting, to provide a flavored honey crop. Lime was also made into
greenwood furniture, while hornbeam went for fuel, and alder (a
nitrogen-fixer) bolstered soil fertility. Many of these same species
have additional medicinal or craft use, providing dyes, seeds, and
flowers of value.

The understory was made more complex by the retention or cultivation of
many fruiting shrubs such as crab apple, rowan, service tree, wild
cherry, and roses. Wide pathways through the woods made access to the
forest easier, and gave a place for much of the woodcraft to take
place.

['avenues'?]

They also introduced more edge that increased the available light and
enhanced the productivity of the woodland. After each felling there
would be an explosion of wildflowers the following spring, while
greenwood growth increased the forage for wild game, an important meat
source.

Coppice-with-standards, and strict laws requiring the retention of at
least 8-20 large trees per acre, ensured the presence of all age
classes of major timber trees in a small area, while enormously
increasing the diversity and productivity of the forest.

This article by guest author Peter Bane was originally published in The
Permaculture Activist"

<<http://www.permacultureactivist.net/>>

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by l***@cs.com
" The inner bark can be made into fibres, baskets, and "In
Sweden, the inner bark, seperated by maceration so as to form a kind of
flax, has been employed to make fishing-nets". So if your Swede
immigrants were fishermen this might be your explanation right there."
"Relatives from Lithuanian have mentioned chewing on them, as
kids.

on that as well as something we call 'svartrot' my father told me they used
for candy.

viper's grass my dictionary translate it with, but that doesn't look like
any 'svartrot' I ever seen neither in nature nor in shops....

Post by l***@cs.com
And lime-blossom honey is quite prized. By the way in modern
American folk-magic practice the linden is considered a
protective tree, with branches hung over the door for this purpose.
Laima palaimink, Kovas"
1)Basketry was (in some cases) used to make bee hives in proximity to
Linden trees.
2) The *Bass*wood terminology comes from the the old English term for
"Centuries ago, the fibrous bark from lime was used for the "bass" or
"bast" in rope making.
"An old name for lime was "linden".
Small-leaved lime was probably far more common here in prehistoric
times. Selective felling by man caused its decline. It has always been
used for forestry, principally for coppicing as it produces long,
straight poles"
http://www.rfs.org.uk/thirdlevel.asp?
3) "A permanent system of forest cultivation called
coppice-with-standards evolved in the British Isles over the past
thousand years, which provided a large range of products-from
construction timber to fencing and furniture parts to fruits, nuts,
honey, and wild game-while maintaining continuous forest cover.
"Coppice" is the practice of cutting trees to the ground purposely to
stimulate resprouting. The word also refers to the regrowth itself.
"Standards" are the trees selected (often planted) to grow into large
timber.
The continuous cutting of small blocks of coppice creates a mosaic of
environments that offers much more diverse habitat for game animals and
birds than the native forest itself. These "fells," or management
blocks-usually no more than an acre in size- also provide patches
of higher light intensity within the forest, which in turn stimulate a
tremendous profusion of flowering and fruiting shrubs and wildflowers.
Pollarding is similar to coppicing in that the trees are regularly cut
back in order to rejuvenate the tops so that small diameter fuelwood
can be harvested. However, pollarded trees are cut not at the ground,
but about 2m (6 feet) above the ground. This practice preserved the
basic tree form and also prevented animals from browsing the tender new
sprouts.
Unlike most coniferous trees, many deciduous hardwoods will resprout
vigorously from the stump when cut. Although some of the roots die back
when the top is cut, much of the original root mass of the tree
survives. From reserves of energy in the roots, the tree regrows very
rapidly, often sprouting 10-30 new stems, which can grow 1-5 meters
(4-15 feet) in a single season. Traditionally, most woodcutting was
done during the autumn and winter, after the agricultural harvest, when
attention could be put on less critical chores. Besides helping to
balance the annual cycle of domestic labor, this practice had many
other advantages. Wood harvested while the trees are dormant is lower
in moisture and makes both longer-lasting timber and better fuel.
Winter cutting also conserved the tree's energy by matching the natural
cycle of vegetative regeneration. Temperate zone root energy reserves
are highest in the dark months of the year as the trees adapt to cold
weather by shedding their leaves and preparing for new growth in
spring.
The repeated cutting had an additional benefit that is not immediately
obvious: it prolonged the life of the trees, often two, three, or four,
times their "natural" span. There are ash "stools" (the stumps from
which regrowth occurs) in England over a thousand years old still
growing coppice.
[!!! Kalm's trees could possibly have been older than thought]
The primary design of coppice-with-standards, however, is to support
the yield of many forest products from a small area.
As each fell of mature woodland was harvested, the regrowth would be
graded by the woodsmen. Superior stems would be selected as "tellers,"
the young precursors to "standards." In addition to tellers there were
two classes of standards. Older yet were the "veterans," and in the
French system, the "oldbark" were yet more venerable. Inferior trees,
whether slower growing, prone to disease, or misshapen, would be
coppiced for poles, wattle (smaller pieces for weaving into a kind of
movable fencing for livestock), and fuelwood. The tops and branches
were sometimes fed to cattle as fodder. In modern management of
coppice-with-standards, young tellers are often planted from selected
stock after the harvest of mature overwood.
Fells were harvested about every six to seven years, the irregularity
permitting adaptation to a variable climate: a cold summer or a dry
year with poor growth could be accommodated in the system. The thinning
of the tellers and of the subsequent classes of standards was done with
a mind to maintaining an open canopy where about half the light came
directly from the sun and the other half indirectly from the sky. The
overstory was thinned to maintain optimal growth conditions both for
the remaining trees and for the underwood. The regular harvest of young
trees and of coppice kept timber and wood processing labor to a
minimum, a factor of critical importance to a society lacking power
tools or fossil fuels. Timbers were shaped with adze and froe, by hand.
Firewood and poles were cut with an axe.
The splitting of large logs, whether for firewood or fencing, was a
custom adopted by Americans in response to the conditions of their
forests: vast numbers of huge trees covered the continent when the
first settlers moved westward. In preindustrial Europe, the notion of
growing a tree to a great size, only to chop it into small pieces, was
seen as wasteful of human energy. Poles and timbers were grown to the
size needed, and no more, while fire-wood was cut at just the dimension
required for stoves and fireplaces.
Overstory and underwood were usually of different species. This made
the woodland ecologically resilient, as canopy and ground cover
exploited not only different soil layers and nutrients, but grew at
different seasons. The coppice and groundcovers did about two-thirds of
their photosynthesis for the year before the overstory came into leaf.
Oak, ash, beech, and elm were commonly the standards, while hazel,
alder, lime (linden, Tilia cordata), willow, and hornbeam were often
grown in the understory. Hazel yielded not only edible nuts, but fodder
from the young shoots, and like willow, made excellent basketry, while
lime leaves were eaten and the trees usually allowed to flower before
harvesting, to provide a flavored honey crop. Lime was also made into
greenwood furniture, while hornbeam went for fuel, and alder (a
nitrogen-fixer) bolstered soil fertility. Many of these same species
have additional medicinal or craft use, providing dyes, seeds, and
flowers of value.
The understory was made more complex by the retention or cultivation of
many fruiting shrubs such as crab apple, rowan, service tree, wild
cherry, and roses. Wide pathways through the woods made access to the
forest easier, and gave a place for much of the woodcraft to take
place.
['avenues'?]
They also introduced more edge that increased the available light and
enhanced the productivity of the woodland. After each felling there
would be an explosion of wildflowers the following spring, while
greenwood growth increased the forage for wild game, an important meat
source.
Coppice-with-standards, and strict laws requiring the retention of at
least 8-20 large trees per acre, ensured the presence of all age
classes of major timber trees in a small area, while enormously
increasing the diversity and productivity of the forest.
This article by guest author Peter Bane was originally published in The
Permaculture Activist"
<<http://www.permacultureactivist.net/>>

Thanks.
Very informative.
Inger E

[Alan Crozier]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by l***@cs.com
" The inner bark can be made into fibres, baskets, and "In
Sweden, the inner bark, seperated by maceration so as to form a kind of
flax, has been employed to make fishing-nets". So if your Swede
immigrants were fishermen this might be your explanation right there."
"Relatives from Lithuanian have mentioned chewing on them, as
kids.

on that as well as something we call 'svartrot' my father told me they used
for candy.
viper's grass my dictionary translate it with, but that doesn't look like
any 'svartrot' I ever seen neither in nature nor in shops....

It's called black salsify

Alan

[Alaca]

***@cs.com wrote in:
***@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com,

about coppice

1. As far as I know Kalm did not mention coppiced trees or wood.
2. The real age of coppice is almost impossible to establish.

[Bryn]

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a street in Berlin called
Unter Den Linden. Also a street
named Linden in my Texas port city.
Why did the Swedes bring Linden
seeds to America? Why is this
species so special ?
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The flower has a glorious smell and the honey from bees which have fed
from the tree is exquisite.

Also the leaves and flowers make a nervine tonic for tension headaches
and hysteria.

The bark stimulates the body to produce bile which is helpful in some
types of indigestion.

The infusion is soothing for chronic coughs and catarrh and will check
simple diarrhoea.

The tincture made by herbalists treats high blood pressure caused by
nervous tension.

[Daryl Krupa]

http://www.algonet.se/~hogman/tiderakning_eng.htm

Period Calendars
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Middle Ages - February 28, 1700 The Julian Calendar
(O.S.)
March 1, 1700 - February 30, 1712 A "Swedish" calendar
(O.S. + 1
day)
March 1, 1712 - February 17, 1753 The Julian Calendar
(O.S.)
March 1, 1753 - present days The Gregorian Calendar
(N.S. or O.S.
+ 11 days)


The Swedish King Gustav II Adolf died in Germany on November 6, 1632,
and again on November 16.

The Thirty Years War was actually longer.

-
A.l.

P.S.: There is another classical Pythonesque reference to
birthdays and calendar confusion, and Terrorism and Twins,
and Snips and Snails and Puppy-Dogs' Tails (<g><g><g>):

"Doug was born in February 1929 and Dinsdale two weeks later;
and again a week after that."

http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Scripts/ThePiranhaBrothersStory

[Daryl Krupa]

<snip>

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by Daryl Krupa
In my copy, those headings seem to be
"Addenda to the Diary" and The Arrival of the First Swedes".
Under that is "September the 18th, 1748."
Is that date shown in your copy, too?

IEJ: depending on if you use the old Calenderdates or the new ones. In the
old it was 7th September 1748 and Kalm wrote both dates.

That is good to know; I did not consider the difference
in calendar dates.
The old Julian calendar was eleven days behind the newer
Gregorian calendar, because the Gregorian calendar has better
adjustments for the fact that the year is not exactly 365 days long.

Post by I.E_Johansson
Btw Do you happen to know when and why the dates were changed.
I can guess it has something to do with the fact that
the extra day we have today each 4th year
(well not all, I know that) and the fact that a year is
a bit longer than the days we give it, but I can't seem to
remember why the changed occured in mid 1700's.
Do you?

Yes, I do. As it happens, my Ukrainian Catholic heritage
gives me an advantage in this knowledge, because one of
the few differences between Ukrainian Catholics and Ukrainian
Orthodox is that we celebrate Christmas on different days.
A smal difference, to be sure, but it has led to trouble
more than once.

The problem was too many February 29s.

Jan. 1, 1752 was the date of the switch in most parts of
British-controlled territory, but that was still 11 days behind.
The calendar was not actually adjusted until September of that year:
September 3 to September 13 were not counted in 1752, so
September 14, 1752 is the first day of the new dating in
British-controlled territory.
Because Julius Caesar's calendar of 365.25 days
(as adjusted to satisfy the vanity of his foster-son Octavian,
later known as Augustus Dei, who wanted his month of August
to be as many days long as the first Emperor Caesar's month of
July)
was falling behind,
the date of Easter became increasingly difficult to calculate
accurately, and Midsummer's Day happened a-week-and-a-half
after the longest day of the year.
Thus the reputation of the Catholic Church as a source of
The Genuine Truth was in danger, at a time when Reformation
was causing rebellion against the Church of Rome.
So a Pope Gregory commissioned a new calendar scheme to
match the actual year length of 365.2425 days (by dropping
most end-of-century Leap Years), and then decreed that it
would be the new standard for the Church calendar as of
October, 1582 (October 5-14 were dropped).
This made the Catholic Church more Relevant in the Modern Age,
and made the Reformers look like a Bunch of Old Mud-heads, and
because anybody born in a non-Catholic country now had their
birthdates recorded inaccurately, it had the added advantage
of making Those Uppity Protestants look like Real Bastards.
(But not Luther; he was born too early to get caught in the net.)
It was not adopted in non-Catholic countries until later, when
the evil of adopting a Papist heresy was outweighed by the
practical advantages of standardisation and objective realism.
In Russia, that happened after the Bolshevik Revolution, and
the Julian calendar is still used by the various Orthodox
Christian churches; Orthodox Christmas Day falls on January 6
in the Gregorian calendar, officially.

Some info. here:

http://members.aol.com/jacob59/more/otherstuff/calendar.html

http://www.geocities.com/calendopaedia/julian.htm

http://www.geocities.com/calendopaedia/gregory.htm

<snip>

Post by I.E_Johansson
The Lind isn't in that one but I gave you that ref as an example of how much
more than what you and I would have thought possible the Swedes, I guess
especially the Swedes but I don't know for sure, brought with them. I have
looked at the dating of the year-rings of a special type of Oak found. Can't
remember the page now. It's in volume 3 and volume 3 I read in my bedroom,
volume 4 I have on my desk(I read Kalm's letter in my kitchen..... books all
over our flat.....) I know from other documentation, not Kalm's but older,
that many from Sweden who migrated used to take a sprout of their
home-farm's 'vårdträ' sometimes an 'Alm' sometimes an 'Oak'(if they were
Noblemen or of Royal blood). The interesting thing, I will return with pages
for that as well as the linden, is that the Oaks dated to around 350 year
Kalm found on his way to Quebec from Philadelphia and I take it you remember
the treecut we discussed not so long ago where the rings went back to second
half 1300's? 1747-350 definitely puts the oaks of Kalm planted close to same
period./IEJ

Yes, the maximum tree age in Kalm's time seems to have been
about 350 years. What I see is that Kalm notes that
most trees are less than 200 years old, and that
few trees are more than 300 years old,
when he is in or near New Jersey.
(I do not have the exact page marked; I will try to find it again.)

He says that this is just an indication of the average life span
of a tree, but it also corresponds to the depopulation of North
America and the collapse of the agrarian societies, after the
Spanish introduced Old World diseases and started of wave of
catastrophic epidemics. It was an unreported holocaust.
What had once been maize fields reverted to forest.
The people that the Swedish and Dutch and English colonists met
when they first arrived were a remnant population.
Inland, many people had gone back to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle,
and the ancient towns were abandoned.
The common age of mature trees would then be a record of when
the farmlands of the Indians were abandoned and allowed to
grow back into forest land, and maybe also when regular burning
of forest lands to clear agricultural land and improve habitat
for game animals ended.

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by Daryl Krupa
Can you tell me, please, how the story of Swedes living like
Indians is connected to Lime Trees?

I can but at present not in public. If you want to be included in latest
discussion and information exchange I can ask for you to receive information
directly or I can send you a summery now and then.

What I meant is that I do not know why you chose to mention
both lime trees and feral Swedes in the subject line:
"Lime tree and Swedes living like Indians".
Putting it another way,
Why did you mention "Lime Trees" in
the subject line for this thread, please?

-
Daryl Krupa

[I.E_Johansson]

<snip>

<large snip>
You wrote:
What I meant is that I do not know why you chose to mention
both lime trees and feral Swedes in the subject line:
"Lime tree and Swedes living like Indians".
Putting it another way,
Why did you mention "Lime Trees" in
the subject line for this thread, please?
/Daryl Krupa

Inger: Since Lime tree/Linden was one thing that symbolized the heathen
tradition here in Northern Europe, a tradition much older then the so called
Nordic Gods/Asa Gods. Especially one of our two oldest goodess,
Frö/Freja/Fröja. That together with the 'change' re their way of living,
might be a return to 'old good days' they had heard the Elderly speak of as
well as it happened to be more like the native of NA's way of living. In
other words when remembered of a more peaceful way of living and a
non-church-regulated way it's not surprising some wanted to live that way.

Inger E

[Daryl Krupa]

Daryl Krupa wrote:
<snip>

Post by Daryl Krupa
Yes, the maximum tree age in Kalm's time seems to
have been about 350 years. What I see is that Kalm
notes that most trees are less than 200 years old,
and that few trees are more than 300 years old,
when he is in or near New Jersey.
(I do not have the exact page marked; I will try to
find it again.)

<snip>

It's from December 11, 1748.
That entry begins with:

"This morning I made a little excursion to
Penn's Neck, and across the Delaware to
Wilmington."

This is part of the second paragraph, headed
"Trees":
"The woods of these parts consist of all sorts
of trees, but chiefly of oak and hickory.
They have certainly never been cut down, and
have always grown without hindrance.
It might therefore be expected that there are
trees of an uncommonly great age to be found
in them.
But it happens otherwise, and there are very
few trees three hundred years old.
Most of them are only two hundred years and
this has convinced me that trees have the same
quality as animals, and die after they have
arrived at a certain age.
We find great forests here, but when the trees
in them have stood a hundred and fifty or a
hundred and eighty years,they are either rotting
within, or losing their crown."

-
Daryl Krupa

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by I.E_Johansson
<snip>

Post by Daryl Krupa
Yes, the maximum tree age in Kalm's time seems to
have been about 350 years. What I see is that Kalm
notes that most trees are less than 200 years old,
and that few trees are more than 300 years old,
when he is in or near New Jersey.
(I do not have the exact page marked; I will try to
find it again.)

<snip>
It's from December 11, 1748.
"This morning I made a little excursion to
Penn's Neck, and across the Delaware to
Wilmington."
This is part of the second paragraph, headed
"The woods of these parts consist of all sorts
of trees, but chiefly of oak and hickory.
They have certainly never been cut down, and
have always grown without hindrance.
It might therefore be expected that there are
trees of an uncommonly great age to be found
in them.
But it happens otherwise, and there are very
few trees three hundred years old.
Most of them are only two hundred years and
this has convinced me that trees have the same
quality as animals, and die after they have
arrived at a certain age.
We find great forests here, but when the trees
in them have stood a hundred and fifty or a
hundred and eighty years,they are either rotting
within, or losing their crown."
-
Daryl Krupa

You will find the 354 years in the 4th volume.
We actually have a span which correspond with documentation I have seen
before.
Starting backwards 90-80 years before Kalm counted the planted(!) trees in
question and we 'meet' the 1658-1668 the second group of Swedes sent after
1631(not 1638 as some documents suggested). The second group came more of
free will than the earlier group. In the group of 1630's many had to migrate
or do time thus the first group's uninterest in farming which is well noted
also is easy to understand. But the 1630's group were not the first Swedes
in eastern NA. We don't have to go that far back as to 1400's to find an
earlier group. To which I will return later.

Inger E

[d***@ev1.net]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Would you be referring to the Swedes
who settled in the Minnesota region
among the Indians ?
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Would you be referring to the Swedes
who settled in the Minnesota region
among the Indians ?
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Minnesota was a short stop on the way to the parts we today call Wisconsin's
coast to the lake....

Norse Greenlanders. Some lived in the area from 12th century you know. Some
came as late as in 1490's-1560's. Not to keen to the non-Catholic churches
that at that stage had come to be in Scandinavian countries.

Inger E

[tkavanagh]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Would you be referring to the Swedes
who settled in the Minnesota region
among the Indians ?
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Minnesota was a short stop on the way to the
parts we today call Wisconsin's
coast to the lake....
Norse Greenlanders. Some lived in the area from
12th century you know.

Bullpucketts

Some

Post by I.E_Johansson
came as late as in 1490's-1560's.

More bullpucketts

Not to keen to the non-Catholic churches

Post by I.E_Johansson
that at that stage had come to be in
Scandinavian countries.

Ungrammatical bullpucketts

tk

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by tkavanagh

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Would you be referring to the Swedes
who settled in the Minnesota region
among the Indians ?
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Minnesota was a short stop on the way to the
parts we today call Wisconsin's
coast to the lake....
Norse Greenlanders. Some lived in the area from
12th century you know.

Bullpucketts
Some

Post by I.E_Johansson
came as late as in 1490's-1560's.

More bullpucketts

NOPE

Post by tkavanagh
Not to keen to the non-Catholic churches

Post by I.E_Johansson
that at that stage had come to be in
Scandinavian countries.

Ungrammatical bullpucketts

tk,
if only you knew how bad my grammar is in Swedish when I am not allowed to
write in a stringent Official form....

Inger E

Post by tkavanagh
tk

[tkavanagh]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by tkavanagh

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Would you be referring to the Swedes
who settled in the Minnesota region
among the Indians ?
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Minnesota was a short stop on the way to the
parts we today call Wisconsin's
coast to the lake....
Norse Greenlanders. Some lived in the area
from
12th century you know.

Bullpucketts
Some

Post by I.E_Johansson
came as late as in 1490's-1560's.

More bullpucketts

NOPE

Post by tkavanagh
Not to keen to the non-Catholic churches

Post by I.E_Johansson
that at that stage had come to be in
Scandinavian countries.

Ungrammatical bullpucketts

tk,
if only you knew how bad my grammar is in
Swedish when I am not allowed to
write in a stringent Official form....

So now you admit that you are not even fluent in
your native language!

tk

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by tkavanagh

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by tkavanagh

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Would you be referring to the Swedes
who settled in the Minnesota region
among the Indians ?
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Minnesota was a short stop on the way to the
parts we today call Wisconsin's
coast to the lake....
Norse Greenlanders. Some lived in the area
from
12th century you know.

Bullpucketts
Some

Post by I.E_Johansson
came as late as in 1490's-1560's.

More bullpucketts

NOPE

Post by tkavanagh
Not to keen to the non-Catholic churches

Post by I.E_Johansson
that at that stage had come to be in
Scandinavian countries.

Ungrammatical bullpucketts

tk,
if only you knew how bad my grammar is in
Swedish when I am not allowed to
write in a stringent Official form....

So now you admit that you are not even fluent in
your native language!

I am dyslextic. Which means that I have spelling problems. Which I told you
and other about many times. I can write lawtexts and official texts and
other such texts without any problems(spelling-checker of course) but
writing for example an ordinary novel or a short story not related to facts
isn't my cup of tea.

Inger E

Post by tkavanagh
tk

[Alan Crozier]

Post by I.E_Johansson
I am dyslextic. Which means that I have spelling problems. Which I told you
and other about many times. I can write lawtexts and official texts and
other such texts without any problems(spelling-checker of course) but
writing for example an ordinary novel or a short story not related to facts
isn't my cup of tea.

As far as I can see, you do that all the time here, writing things that are
not related to facts.

Still, today's promise of an article to appear in March is almost as good
news as Charles and Camilla making it legal.

;-)

Alan

[Philip Deitiker]

Post by Alan Crozier
Still, today's promise of an article to appear in March is

almost as good

Post by Alan Crozier
news as Charles and Camilla making it legal.

You know they have to get married, ;^).
--
Philip
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Mol. Anth. Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DNAanthro/
Mol. Evol. Hominids http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/
Evol. of Xchrom.
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/xlinked.htm
Pal. Anth. Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Paleoanthro/
Sci. Arch. Aux
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sciarchauxilliary/

DNApaleoAnth at Att dot net

[Alaca]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by tkavanagh
So now you admit that you are not even fluent in
your native language!

I am dyslextic. Which means that I have spelling problems. Which I
told you and other about many times. I can write lawtexts and
official texts and other such texts without any
problems(spelling-checker of course) but writing for example an
ordinary novel or a short story not related to facts isn't my cup
of tea.

There are special spelling checkers for ordinary novels and for short
stories.
Ask your local dealer.

[tkavanagh]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by tkavanagh

Post by I.E_Johansson
skrev

Post by Alan Crozier
"I.E_Johansson"

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Would you be referring to the Swedes
who settled in the Minnesota region
among the Indians ?
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Minnesota was a short stop on the way to
the
parts we today call Wisconsin's
coast to the lake....
Norse Greenlanders. Some lived in the area
from
12th century you know.

Bullpucketts
Some

Post by I.E_Johansson
came as late as in 1490's-1560's.

More bullpucketts

NOPE

Post by Alan Crozier
Not to keen to the non-Catholic churches

Post by I.E_Johansson
that at that stage had come to be in
Scandinavian countries.

Ungrammatical bullpucketts

tk,
if only you knew how bad my grammar is in
Swedish when I am not allowed to
write in a stringent Official form....

So now you admit that you are not even fluent
in
your native language!

I am dyslextic.

Dyslexia has nothing to do with grammar, the topic
of the above sentences..

Post by I.E_Johansson
Which means that I have spelling problems.

And which means that you should take special care
when writing, paricularly in a foreign language.

Post by I.E_Johansson
Which I told you and other about many times.

Oh, yes, you have tried to excuse yourself many
times via this claim. The occasional typo is one
thing, but the continued use of the *same*
misspellings--"hugh" for 'huge', 'kettle' for
'cattle'--
is not dyslexia.

Post by I.E_Johansson
I can write lawtexts and official texts and
other such texts without any
problems(spelling-checker of course)

It hasn't done you any good has it?

but

Post by I.E_Johansson
writing for example an ordinary novel or a short
story not related to facts
isn't my cup of tea.

Why not, nothing you have written here is related
to facts.

tk

[I.E_Johansson]

tk,
sometimes you are sweet, but sour as well....
have fun.

Inger E

[David Johnson]

Everyone, just default to "Inger said it, therefore it is..."

1) Wrong
2) A lie
3) Something she doesn't understand/misinterpreted/doesn't support
her
or
4) A mixture of any or all of the above.

...and move on. She's a joke, who claims Great Knowledge Of All Things,
yet by now has been shown to not even understand her _own_ language all
that well (let alone other's, or Latin, or History, or Computers, or...).
At best, she's a troll - at worst, paranoid-delusional with one of those
delusions being of competence.

You're not going to get any useful/true information out of her except by
accident (and throwing darts at an encyclopedia would work better than
_that_ kind of accident), not going to convince her to even admit that
she _might possibly_ be wrong at even the slightest thing and not going
to get her to shut up unless we all just killfile her.

Everyone, do so - and if you're worried about newbies, put copies of your
killfile in the FAQ. No one ever talking to her would be far more of a
warning to newbies that she's a troll/moron than any of these five-
hundred message long threads where you try to get some sort of useful
response out of her.

Not Going To Happen.

I agree totally with Kuettner - *PLONK* and be done with her.

David

[Philip Deitiker]

Post by tkavanagh
Why not, nothing you have written here is related
to facts.

I wonder if Inger is arguing with tk because.

A. She wants to further embarass herself in public.
B. She believes that arguing an undefendendable position
is as good as a defense.
C. This month has been a good month for Vodka sales in Sweden.
D. Her prescription for . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
E. All the above.

I was reading the Teachings of Buddha the other night and it
said something about.

Don't argue, concede the argument. but if one ask you
what the truth is do not state right or wrong, but only the
facts, not in a way to conceal the facts.

From chistian philospophy 'don't throw pearls to the pigs'
The parable of the seeds is that only seeds that fall on
prepared soil will sprout and grow, those that fall on the
road get trampled, and will never amount too much.

If someone has something to say about native american culture
that differs from others point of view, it is no shame to
state those facts, as they are, whether or not they prove a
point is a different issue. I, for one, am tired about hearing
about the Norse in north america because essentially there are
no archaeological facts except one site in Labrador (The
actual archaeology here is seldomly discussed), After leaving
Shikoku on Saturday I have a mountain of papers unfortunately
written in Japanese (but I will make an effort to translate)
on the diffusion of technologies over 100s to 1000s of km in
the pre-civil period of Japan. At some point I would like to
compare these works with similar techno/cultural diffusion in
the new world.
My point is this, there is a putative connection between
china/korea and Japan that precedes the civil (Yayoi-now dated
from 1000 BC to 400AD) period. But this connection is not
arbitrarily concieved, but based on precise cultural
comparisons of pottery artefacts and tools that are exactly
matched between distal sites. For any given cultural region in
Japan these artefacts match those in some other culture on the
continent. Typical distances are 500 km.
Any known connection between the Norse and NA cultures
should be obvious cultural linkes via classes nearly identicle
cultural objects. For the Norse/NA connection we are talking
about 500 to 1000 years ago, from the Japan/Korean we are
talking about 3000 years ago, so that time is less of a factor
in Norse/NA connection and artefacts should be more obvious.
The absense of evidence linking scandinavian culture with
midwestern NA culture is a fact. Professional archaeology
would have easily detected a link. Even as much as the HLA for
Japan spells out genetic differences between 20% of Japanese
genes and Chinese and Koreans, marking off the earlier genetic
stasis on these islands testifies to the fact that trade
during the earlier period was also not neccesarily associated
with migrations. So that even if the Norse peoples had died
out the cultural influences would have persisted. This is not
seen.
I am sure Eric is going to squinkle in here with his
contrarisms about absense of evidence not being evidence of
absense. But I should make to point that cultural exchange
even over 1000 km 3000 years ago makes itself blatently
obvious even when genetic exchange is not clear. Given that
some many are interested and so much archaeology has been done
[point and so what is the matter with discussing it] it
should be obvious if the Norse were constantly settling the
mid west for a 600 year period.
At least I can make one point. Given the route between Korea
and Shikoku crosses 2 seas via a small cut, but is as much a
strait line, that cultural trade implies a knowledge of sea
routes prior to mapping as we know it, and that different
regions tended to trade with different continental groups
suggests that links were specific and may have represented
ancient ancestral ties. There is a distribution of density of
similar artefacts and proximity to coastline, always. In the
case of the Minnesota/Greenland norse connection there is no
connection between density of putative finds and coastline,
excepting the l'meadows, which is not proximal to a useful
entry-navigation point. Therefore it is possible to present
specific contradictory evidence such as, numbers of sites
close to navigable bodies of water versus artefacts at those
sites which might be considered Norse.
Once again the archaeological evidence from Japan shows that
one can discriminate as many as 4 cultures on one small
islands 3 groupable to a major culture and 1 that might
represent an extension of ryukyuan/kyushan culture. And
example is the Kiazuka shell mound in which a skeleton, shell
tools, maritime impliments, etc are all found in the same
site, and differ from other sites on the same small island
which are typified by multicolored freeform ringed lipped
earthenware pottery, animal bones, bone and stone tools. By
any consideration, these are closely related cultures, and in
query I could not get anyone to demarkate an actual
morphological difference between the two groups. This is also
evidence because groups as different as Vikings and Native
Americans have cultural artifacts that easily identify them.
And yet no such artefacts exist at points in which Norse would
have to have traveled to get to inland sites, or that would be
evident with persistent culture.

Therefore on 3 levels we have a lack of evidence which one
expects to have been abundant if the claims were true.
--
Philip
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Mol. Anth. Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DNAanthro/
Mol. Evol. Hominids http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/
Evol. of Xchrom.
http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/xlinked.htm
Pal. Anth. Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Paleoanthro/
Sci. Arch. Aux
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sciarchauxilliary/

DNApaleoAnth at Att dot net

[Eric Stevens]

Post by Philip Deitiker

Post by tkavanagh
Why not, nothing you have written here is related
to facts.

I wonder if Inger is arguing with tk because.
A. She wants to further embarass herself in public.
B. She believes that arguing an undefendendable position
is as good as a defense.
C. This month has been a good month for Vodka sales in Sweden.
D. Her prescription for . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
E. All the above.
I was reading the Teachings of Buddha the other night and it
said something about.
Don't argue, concede the argument. but if one ask you
what the truth is do not state right or wrong, but only the
facts, not in a way to conceal the facts.
From chistian philospophy 'don't throw pearls to the pigs'
The parable of the seeds is that only seeds that fall on
prepared soil will sprout and grow, those that fall on the
road get trampled, and will never amount too much.
If someone has something to say about native american culture
that differs from others point of view, it is no shame to
state those facts, as they are, whether or not they prove a
point is a different issue. I, for one, am tired about hearing
about the Norse in north america because essentially there are
no archaeological facts except one site in Labrador (The
actual archaeology here is seldomly discussed), After leaving
Shikoku on Saturday I have a mountain of papers unfortunately
written in Japanese (but I will make an effort to translate)
on the diffusion of technologies over 100s to 1000s of km in
the pre-civil period of Japan. At some point I would like to
compare these works with similar techno/cultural diffusion in
the new world.
My point is this, there is a putative connection between
china/korea and Japan that precedes the civil (Yayoi-now dated
from 1000 BC to 400AD) period. But this connection is not
arbitrarily concieved, but based on precise cultural
comparisons of pottery artefacts and tools that are exactly
matched between distal sites. For any given cultural region in
Japan these artefacts match those in some other culture on the
continent. Typical distances are 500 km.
Any known connection between the Norse and NA cultures
should be obvious cultural linkes via classes nearly identicle
cultural objects. For the Norse/NA connection we are talking
about 500 to 1000 years ago, from the Japan/Korean we are
talking about 3000 years ago, so that time is less of a factor
in Norse/NA connection and artefacts should be more obvious.
The absense of evidence linking scandinavian culture with
midwestern NA culture is a fact. Professional archaeology
would have easily detected a link. Even as much as the HLA for
Japan spells out genetic differences between 20% of Japanese
genes and Chinese and Koreans, marking off the earlier genetic
stasis on these islands testifies to the fact that trade
during the earlier period was also not neccesarily associated
with migrations. So that even if the Norse peoples had died
out the cultural influences would have persisted. This is not
seen.
I am sure Eric is going to squinkle in here with his
contrarisms about absense of evidence not being evidence of
absense.

The only comment I was tempted to make on this occasion (and I've made
it before) is that it is possible that there have been such cultural
influences but they have not been identified as such.

This is a version of the alternative universe question. What would NA
be like today if as Inger proposes some 5000 settlers of Norse descent
established themselves somewhere initially around Hudson Bay?
Alternatively, what would NA be like if there had been no such
settlement? (Like it is now isn't an answer. That amounts to begging
the question.) When one considers the turbulent influences of
post-Columbian settlement, would the differences between the two
scenarios be easily recognisable some some 600 years after the event?
That's not a rhetorical question. Its a genuine question.

Post by Philip Deitiker
But I should make to point that cultural exchange
even over 1000 km 3000 years ago makes itself blatently
obvious even when genetic exchange is not clear.

Ordinarily I would rather rely on gentic data but in NA the trail has
been very much muddied since the European settlers arrived.

Post by Philip Deitiker
Given that
some many are interested and so much archaeology has been done
[point and so what is the matter with discussing it] it
should be obvious if the Norse were constantly settling the
mid west for a 600 year period.

Has that been proposed? I don't think so.

Post by Philip Deitiker
At least I can make one point. Given the route between Korea
and Shikoku crosses 2 seas via a small cut, but is as much a
strait line, that cultural trade implies a knowledge of sea
routes prior to mapping as we know it, and that different
regions tended to trade with different continental groups
suggests that links were specific and may have represented
ancient ancestral ties. There is a distribution of density of
similar artefacts and proximity to coastline, always. In the
case of the Minnesota/Greenland norse connection there is no
connection between density of putative finds and coastline,
excepting the l'meadows, which is not proximal to a useful
entry-navigation point. Therefore it is possible to present
specific contradictory evidence such as, numbers of sites
close to navigable bodies of water versus artefacts at those
sites which might be considered Norse.
Once again the archaeological evidence from Japan shows that
one can discriminate as many as 4 cultures on one small
islands 3 groupable to a major culture and 1 that might
represent an extension of ryukyuan/kyushan culture. And
example is the Kiazuka shell mound in which a skeleton, shell
tools, maritime impliments, etc are all found in the same
site, and differ from other sites on the same small island
which are typified by multicolored freeform ringed lipped
earthenware pottery, animal bones, bone and stone tools. By
any consideration, these are closely related cultures, and in
query I could not get anyone to demarkate an actual
morphological difference between the two groups. This is also
evidence because groups as different as Vikings and Native
Americans have cultural artifacts that easily identify them.
And yet no such artefacts exist at points in which Norse would
have to have traveled to get to inland sites, or that would be
evident with persistent culture.
Therefore on 3 levels we have a lack of evidence which one
expects to have been abundant if the claims were true.

Eric Stevens

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by Eric Stevens

Post by Philip Deitiker

Post by tkavanagh
Why not, nothing you have written here is related
to facts.

I wonder if Inger is arguing with tk because.
A. She wants to further embarass herself in public.
B. She believes that arguing an undefendendable position
is as good as a defense.
C. This month has been a good month for Vodka sales in Sweden.
D. Her prescription for . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
E. All the above.
I was reading the Teachings of Buddha the other night and it
said something about.
Don't argue, concede the argument. but if one ask you
what the truth is do not state right or wrong, but only the
facts, not in a way to conceal the facts.
From chistian philospophy 'don't throw pearls to the pigs'
The parable of the seeds is that only seeds that fall on
prepared soil will sprout and grow, those that fall on the
road get trampled, and will never amount too much.
If someone has something to say about native american culture
that differs from others point of view, it is no shame to
state those facts, as they are, whether or not they prove a
point is a different issue. I, for one, am tired about hearing
about the Norse in north america because essentially there are
no archaeological facts except one site in Labrador (The
actual archaeology here is seldomly discussed), After leaving
Shikoku on Saturday I have a mountain of papers unfortunately
written in Japanese (but I will make an effort to translate)
on the diffusion of technologies over 100s to 1000s of km in
the pre-civil period of Japan. At some point I would like to
compare these works with similar techno/cultural diffusion in
the new world.
My point is this, there is a putative connection between
china/korea and Japan that precedes the civil (Yayoi-now dated
from 1000 BC to 400AD) period. But this connection is not
arbitrarily concieved, but based on precise cultural
comparisons of pottery artefacts and tools that are exactly
matched between distal sites. For any given cultural region in
Japan these artefacts match those in some other culture on the
continent. Typical distances are 500 km.
Any known connection between the Norse and NA cultures
should be obvious cultural linkes via classes nearly identicle
cultural objects. For the Norse/NA connection we are talking
about 500 to 1000 years ago, from the Japan/Korean we are
talking about 3000 years ago, so that time is less of a factor
in Norse/NA connection and artefacts should be more obvious.
The absense of evidence linking scandinavian culture with
midwestern NA culture is a fact. Professional archaeology
would have easily detected a link. Even as much as the HLA for
Japan spells out genetic differences between 20% of Japanese
genes and Chinese and Koreans, marking off the earlier genetic
stasis on these islands testifies to the fact that trade
during the earlier period was also not neccesarily associated
with migrations. So that even if the Norse peoples had died
out the cultural influences would have persisted. This is not
seen.
I am sure Eric is going to squinkle in here with his
contrarisms about absense of evidence not being evidence of
absense.

The only comment I was tempted to make on this occasion (and I've made
it before) is that it is possible that there have been such cultural
influences but they have not been identified as such.
This is a version of the alternative universe question. What would NA
be like today if as Inger proposes some 5000 settlers of Norse descent
established themselves somewhere initially around Hudson Bay?

Not only in Hudson Bay. What we don't know is if the French, which I doubt,
or the English did in that area as is documented that Penn did in Nya
Sverige, confiscated the church books and the birthcertificates of the
Swedes and the Finns. That's also a way to prevent the true story of who
lived there before the Dutch and the English came to eastern north America.
could have happened elsewhere as well for all we know.

Post by Eric Stevens
Alternatively, what would NA be like if there had been no such
settlement? (Like it is now isn't an answer. That amounts to begging
the question.) When one considers the turbulent influences of
post-Columbian settlement, would the differences between the two
scenarios be easily recognisable some some 600 years after the event?
That's not a rhetorical question. Its a genuine question.

Post by Philip Deitiker
But I should make to point that cultural exchange
even over 1000 km 3000 years ago makes itself blatently
obvious even when genetic exchange is not clear.

Ordinarily I would rather rely on gentic data but in NA the trail has
been very much muddied since the European settlers arrived.

What those who here in group, except for Giselle, missed is that the Norse
Greenlanders who first settled in Greenland in many cases came from northern
Norway and belonged to the group we call Kvens. They had no relationship
with the Finns but they were descendants of a group of people from the Ural
Mountains who for more than 1000 years long ago followed the Reindeers they
hunted to Alta in Norway and back to Ural Mountains. That group had same
ancestors way back as the group who moved eastward over the tundra and
Arctic Asia......
It's easier to find a thing if you know what you should be looking for......
You could for example look the other way. Check what's known about the DNA
today in northern Norway.

Post by Eric Stevens

Post by Philip Deitiker
Given that
some many are interested and so much archaeology has been done
[point and so what is the matter with discussing it] it
should be obvious if the Norse were constantly settling the
mid west for a 600 year period.

Has that been proposed? I don't think so.

Eric,
we know of remains that aren't native from 11th century on forward up to
1700. Some settlements small and abondoned short before in time when the
White Indians had their guns given by the Swedes in Nya Swerige.

Post by Eric Stevens

Post by Philip Deitiker
At least I can make one point. Given the route between Korea
and Shikoku crosses 2 seas via a small cut, but is as much a
strait line, that cultural trade implies a knowledge of sea
routes prior to mapping as we know it, and that different
regions tended to trade with different continental groups
suggests that links were specific and may have represented
ancient ancestral ties. There is a distribution of density of
similar artefacts and proximity to coastline, always. In the
case of the Minnesota/Greenland norse connection there is no
connection between density of putative finds and coastline,
excepting the l'meadows, which is not proximal to a useful
entry-navigation point. Therefore it is possible to present
specific contradictory evidence such as, numbers of sites
close to navigable bodies of water versus artefacts at those
sites which might be considered Norse.
Once again the archaeological evidence from Japan shows that
one can discriminate as many as 4 cultures on one small
islands 3 groupable to a major culture and 1 that might
represent an extension of ryukyuan/kyushan culture. And
example is the Kiazuka shell mound in which a skeleton, shell
tools, maritime impliments, etc are all found in the same
site, and differ from other sites on the same small island
which are typified by multicolored freeform ringed lipped
earthenware pottery, animal bones, bone and stone tools. By
any consideration, these are closely related cultures, and in
query I could not get anyone to demarkate an actual
morphological difference between the two groups. This is also
evidence because groups as different as Vikings and Native
Americans have cultural artifacts that easily identify them.
And yet no such artefacts exist at points in which Norse would
have to have traveled to get to inland sites, or that would be
evident with persistent culture.
Therefore on 3 levels we have a lack of evidence which one
expects to have been abundant if the claims were true.

If Philip and other haven't spent time looking for pollen analyses and
analyses of human lices found in dated Pre-Columbian layer..... But of
course Philip wasn't here when I sent ref to several of those analyse
reports, so in this part he might be excused but the rest here in group? Is
it possible that you all missed the ref I sent from a NA site and same
period's Snorre Sturlason's own farm?


Inger E

Post by Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens

[Alaca]

Post by I.E_Johansson
If Philip and other haven't spent time looking for pollen analyses
and analyses of human lices found in dated Pre-Columbian layer.....
But of course Philip wasn't here when I sent ref to several of
those analyse reports, so in this part he might be excused but the
rest here in group? Is it possible that you all missed the ref I
sent from a NA site and same period's Snorre Sturlason's own farm?

Yes, everyone missed that. And if you realy send it,
that was because you didn't undertand a thing of it
and needed the group to explain it to you.
Don't play the expert. It don't suit you.

[d***@ev1.net]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are a few Doubting Thomases here
who do not wish to comfort themselves with
illusions about pre-Columbian Viking
connections to NA. Just as today's science
fiction is tomorrow's fact, new excavations
and discoveries may turn the profession upside
down.
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Tom McDonald]

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are a few Doubting Thomases here
who do not wish to comfort themselves with
illusions about pre-Columbian Viking
connections to NA. Just as today's science
fiction is tomorrow's fact, new excavations
and discoveries may turn the profession upside
down.
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And that's exactly what frosts my cookies about Inger and
Seppo. Inger proclaims revolutions in archaeology, but does not
support them in an adequate, scientific way. And Seppo assumes
that North American archaeologists would be distraught if
"discoveries...turn[ed] the profession upside down."

'Give me a lever Old World enough, and a leg to stand on, and I
will publish something to move the archaeological world.' Or
something like that.

[Philip Deitiker]

Post by Tom McDonald
And that's exactly what frosts my cookies about Inger and
Seppo. Inger proclaims revolutions in archaeology, but does not
support them in an adequate, scientific way. And Seppo assumes
that North American archaeologists would be distraught if
"discoveries...turn[ed] the profession upside down."
'Give me a lever Old World enough, and a leg to stand on,
and I
will publish something to move the archaeological world.' Or
something like that.

But new discoveries will be tainted by the charletons of
misinformation like Inger, people would be more receptive if the
argument was being lead by people of careful and sane mind. The
flipside argument applies here even more so.
--
Philip
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
____Groups_____
Mol Anthro http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DNAanthro/
Pal Anthro http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Paleoanthro/
Arch. Aux http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sciarchauxilliary/
Gliadin Sci http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/GliadinScience/

____Sites_____
Mol. Evol. Hominids http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/
Evol. of Xchrom. http://home.att.net/~DNAPaleoAnth/xlinked.htm

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are a few Doubting Thomases here
who do not wish to comfort themselves with
illusions about pre-Columbian Viking
connections to NA. Just as today's science
fiction is tomorrow's fact, new excavations
and discoveries may turn the profession upside
down.
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If the article the other day re. new excavations of mounds is correct, the
upside down situation already is here.

Inger E

[Tom McDonald]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are a few Doubting Thomases here
who do not wish to comfort themselves with
illusions about pre-Columbian Viking
connections to NA. Just as today's science
fiction is tomorrow's fact, new excavations
and discoveries may turn the profession upside
down.
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If the article the other day re. new excavations of mounds is correct, the
upside down situation already is here.
Inger E

Inger,

What article is that? Where are the mounds in question? To what
data from excavations of them do you refer?

If they are in the US or Canada, or even Mexico, a number of us
here have the connections to follow this up if you can give us a
start.

[Doug Weller]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:19:16 -0600, in sci.archaeology, Tom McDonald

Post by Alaca

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are a few Doubting Thomases here
who do not wish to comfort themselves with
illusions about pre-Columbian Viking
connections to NA. Just as today's science
fiction is tomorrow's fact, new excavations
and discoveries may turn the profession upside
down.
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If the article the other day re. new excavations of mounds is correct, the
upside down situation already is here.
Inger E

Inger,
What article is that? Where are the mounds in question? To what
data from excavations of them do you refer?
If they are in the US or Canada, or even Mexico, a number of us
here have the connections to follow this up if you can give us a
start.

Yes, that will be interesting.

Inger, what mounds? What article?
This one on the Newark mounds?
http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/living/travel/10824685.htm?1c

These Georgia mounds?
http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/news/local/10835185.htm

The Dickson mounds?

http://www.hoinews.com/news/headlines/1228082.html

Doug

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by Doug Weller
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:19:16 -0600, in sci.archaeology, Tom McDonald

Post by Alaca

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are a few Doubting Thomases here
who do not wish to comfort themselves with
illusions about pre-Columbian Viking
connections to NA. Just as today's science
fiction is tomorrow's fact, new excavations
and discoveries may turn the profession upside
down.
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If the article the other day re. new excavations of mounds is correct, the
upside down situation already is here.
Inger E

Inger,
What article is that? Where are the mounds in question? To what
data from excavations of them do you refer?
If they are in the US or Canada, or even Mexico, a number of us
here have the connections to follow this up if you can give us a
start.

Yes, that will be interesting.
Inger, what mounds? What article?
This one on the Newark mounds?
http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/living/travel/10824685.htm?1c
These Georgia mounds?
http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/news/local/10835185.htm

One of them.
I take it that you had that from Topiltzin? Excellent information that way.
The other I had from friends but it wasn't the two I refered to.

Post by Doug Weller
The Dickson mounds?
http://www.hoinews.com/news/headlines/1228082.html
Doug

Inger E

[Doug Weller]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by Doug Weller
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:19:16 -0600, in sci.archaeology, Tom McDonald

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are a few Doubting Thomases here
who do not wish to comfort themselves with
illusions about pre-Columbian Viking
connections to NA. Just as today's science
fiction is tomorrow's fact, new excavations
and discoveries may turn the profession upside
down.
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If the article the other day re. new excavations of mounds is correct,

the

Post by Doug Weller

Post by I.E_Johansson
upside down situation already is here.
Inger E

[SNIP]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by Doug Weller
These Georgia mounds?
http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/news/local/10835185.htm

One of them.
I take it that you had that from Topiltzin? Excellent information that way.
The other I had from friends but it wasn't the two I refered to.

Mike's site is excellent, let's give him some credit and the url:
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISANCIENT/
This was also on another good archaeology news site:
http://www.ajmorris.com/science/Archaeology_News.php

Are you saying you are referring to the Singer Moye mounds? Why can't you
be explicit and helpful?
http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Multimedia.jsp?id=m-4153
http://www.nps.gov/ocmu/Georgia.htm
http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/news/10835185.htm

Nothing there surprising however, certainly nothing to turn any idea
upside down.

Doug

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by Doug Weller

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by Doug Weller
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:19:16 -0600, in sci.archaeology, Tom McDonald

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by d***@ev1.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are a few Doubting Thomases here
who do not wish to comfort themselves with
illusions about pre-Columbian Viking
connections to NA. Just as today's science
fiction is tomorrow's fact, new excavations
and discoveries may turn the profession upside
down.
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If the article the other day re. new excavations of mounds is correct,

the

Post by Doug Weller

Post by I.E_Johansson
upside down situation already is here.
Inger E

[SNIP]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by Doug Weller
These Georgia mounds?

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/news/local/10835185.htm

Post by Doug Weller

Post by I.E_Johansson
One of them.
I take it that you had that from Topiltzin? Excellent information that way.
The other I had from friends but it wasn't the two I refered to.

http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin-2091/MIKERUGGERISANCIENT/
http://www.ajmorris.com/science/Archaeology_News.php
Are you saying you are referring to the Singer Moye mounds? Why can't you
be explicit and helpful?
http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Multimedia.jsp?id=m-4153
http://www.nps.gov/ocmu/Georgia.htm
http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/news/10835185.htm
Nothing there surprising however, certainly nothing to turn any idea
upside down.

Not that one. Let's put it like this - there has been found artifacts which
might point to at least an early not known trade-contact. Same site is to be
excavated, hasn't been up to now. The interesting thing is that arial photo
indicates that a path, or smaller way which has been seen before might have
same structure of settlements around in away we here in Sweden calls
'radbyar'. Had a preinformation the other day.
Let's wait for the result of the cheramic piece analyses.

Inger E

Post by Doug Weller
Doug
--
Doug Weller -- exorcise the demon to reply
Doug & Helen's Dogs http://www.dougandhelen.com
A Director and Moderator of The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk

[Alaca]

Post by I.E_Johansson
Not that one. Let's put it like this - there has been found
artifacts which might point to at least an early not known
trade-contact. Same site is to be excavated, hasn't been up to now.
The interesting thing is that arial photo indicates that a path, or
smaller way which has been seen before might have same structure of
settlements around in away we here in Sweden calls 'radbyar'. Had a
preinformation the other day.
Let's wait for the result of the cheramic piece analyses.
Inger E

For the non-Swedes:
*Radbyar* are so called "linear villages" with the houses and barns in
lines along the road.

[Jon Tveten]

Post by Alaca
*Radbyar* are so called "linear villages" with the houses and barns in
lines along the road.

What about the rest?

[Alaca]

Post by Jon Tveten

Post by Alaca
*Radbyar* are so called "linear villages" with the houses and
barns in lines along the road.

What about the rest?

What rest? Ask her.

[I.E_Johansson]

Post by Jon Tveten

Post by Alaca
*Radbyar* are so called "linear villages" with the houses and barns in
lines along the road.

What about the rest?

Well Alaca talked about later linear villages. In the older days before the
'solskiftet' there were no seperate barns. the house had two areas one for
the cattles and one for the family. Small narrow land close to the houses
and the short end of the houses were almost always headed to the path/small
way (Alaca can you explain 'solskiftet' in English not only translate the
word. Thanks in advance).

Inger E

Post by Jon Tveten
--
Jon Tveten
En Bæring i Australia
e-mail jtveten at netspace net au
HTTP://jtveten.no-ip.com:800

[Alaca]

Post by I.E_Johansson

Post by Jon Tveten

Post by Alaca
*Radbyar* are so called "linear villages" with the houses and
barns in lines along the road.

What about the rest?

Well Alaca talked about later linear villages. In the older days
before the 'solskiftet' there were no seperate barns. the house had
two areas one for the cattles and one for the family. Small narrow
land close to the houses and the short end of the houses were
almost always headed to the path/small way (Alaca can you explain
'solskiftet' in English not only translate the word. Thanks in
advance).

.Yes I can, and I know terms for it in English, German and Dutch too,
but I won't tell you. But I am willing to give you a hint.
Take a look at a page somewhere on http://www.algonet.se and have
a try yourself.

Thanks afterwards is more appreciated.

[David B]

I.E_Johansson wrote in message ...

Post by I.E_Johansson
In the older days before the
'solskiftet' there were no seperate barns. the house had two areas one for
the cattles and one for the family. Small narrow land close to the houses
and the short end of the houses were almost always headed to the path/small
way (Alaca can you explain 'solskiftet' in English not only translate the
word. Thanks in advance).

English-speaking readers may find it helpful to treat the word as
"solskift". Not very helpful, of course, but maybe a tiny bit.


David B.

[Alaca]

Post by David B
I.E_Johansson wrote in message ...

Post by I.E_Johansson
In the older days before the
'solskiftet' there were no seperate barns. the house had two areas
one for the cattles and one for the family. Small narrow land
close to the houses and the short end of the houses were almost
always headed to the path/small way (Alaca can you explain
'solskiftet' in English not only translate the word. Thanks in
advance).

English-speaking readers may find it helpful to treat the word as
"solskift". Not very helpful, of course, but maybe a tiny bit.
David B.

Find solskift and many more in the
Medieval Glossary on NETSERF,
The Internet Connection for Medieval Recources
http://www.netserf.org/

[Philip Deitiker]

Post by Eric Stevens
This is a version of the alternative universe question. What
would NA be like today if as Inger proposes some 5000 settlers
of Norse descent established themselves somewhere initially
around Hudson Bay? Alternatively, what would NA be like if there
had been no such settlement? (Like it is now isn't an answer.
That amounts to begging the question.) When one considers the
turbulent influences of post-Columbian settlement, would the
differences between the two scenarios be easily recognisable
some some 600 years after the event? That's not a rhetorical
question. Its a genuine question.

That is not the issue, no-one questions that some vikings might have
settled somewhere around the Hudson bay. According to Inger's
theory, they postured themselves in a part of the bay that would
allow continued deep expeditions into the continent. This translates
into a legistical base(s) that acted as an intermediate between
greenland and the midwest.
The object of continued presense would have to be trade, and
if trade occurred then the effect was significant and notable
in the archaeological record.

The historical record shows that the greenland norse made
contact with native americans, therefore they altered the corse
of New World history but in ways we cannot fathom. There is no
question that needs to be begged because that is a foregone
conclusion. If the norse moved to hudson bay but did not trade or
interact with the locals then the conclusion does not change, except
by degree. It is only when one postulates a long term interactive
norse popualtion that one runs into a situation in which archaeology
needs added proof, because the affects are farther reaching and
difficult to conceal by the randomness of archaeological finds.

Post by Eric Stevens
Ordinarily I would rather rely on gentic data but in NA the
trail has been very much muddied since the European settlers
arrived.

There is no difference in Japan, the earlier trade is muddled by the
Yayoi immigration waves. The difference is however visible in the
morphological shift which was pronounced. In the New World population
there is variable morphological shift in the indigeonous populations.
I am hoping the above is also true for Japan, that we have made
generalizations about the Yayoi based on a few skulls. None the less
that contribution to identified indigeonous groups is far less. The
first people we would look for genetic contribution is the greenland
inuit, which have only a 0.5% frequency of super-B8 haplotype
components, explainable by modern interaction. Genetic analysis of
hudson bay inuit has also revealed no contribution. The contributions
were are seeing where B8 is higher is in places were there was known
post-columbian admixture, and in places were such admixture was
uncommon the european specific haplotype frequencies are low.
When one talks about genetic diffusion, sites closest to the source
have the highest frequency which then fades with distance. So you
can't argue genetic diffusion into the inuit, which then markedly
lowers one aspect of trade, which then makes the archaeological
component far more important as a proof.

Post by Eric Stevens

Post by Philip Deitiker
Given that
some many are interested and so much archaeology has been done
[point and so what is the matter with discussing it] it
should be obvious if the Norse were constantly settling the
mid west for a 600 year period.

Has that been proposed? I don't think so.

Inger has claimed that there was settlement from the early period all
the way to the 1500s.

[Alaca]

Post by I.E_Johansson
<snip>

Post by Daryl Krupa
Yes, the maximum tree age in Kalm's time seems to
have been about 350 years. What I see is that Kalm
notes that most trees are less than 200 years old,
and that few trees are more than 300 years old,
when he is in or near New Jersey.
(I do not have the exact page marked; I will try to
find it again.)

<snip>
It's from December 11, 1748.
"This morning I made a little excursion to
Penn's Neck, and across the Delaware to
Wilmington."
This is part of the second paragraph, headed
"The woods of these parts consist of all sorts
of trees, but chiefly of oak and hickory.
They have certainly never been cut down, and
have always grown without hindrance.
It might therefore be expected that there are
trees of an uncommonly great age to be found
in them.
But it happens otherwise, and there are very
few trees three hundred years old.
Most of them are only two hundred years and
this has convinced me that trees have the same
quality as animals, and die after they have
arrived at a certain age.
We find great forests here, but when the trees
in them have stood a hundred and fifty or a
hundred and eighty years,they are either rotting
within, or losing their crown."

Daryl,
This is nice. It sounds all familiar to me, i.o.w. a quit
normal natural situation with sometimes short life
spans, depending on species an growing conditions.
No signs of exploitation, but the agestructure of the
forests seems unnatural even.
Kalm thinks that's because trees have a maximum
age, but just then there must be a great variation
in tree age.
Maybe 200 years before cultivation ceased,
maybe there was fire. But a changed climate and/or
changed waterlevels are also possible.
It is now clear to me that the special oaks Inger pointed
to were special because their more than average age.

[d***@ev1.net]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now that we have the reindeer story
(Cape Norwegians have Mongolian
genes because their Kven ancestors followed
the reindeer from Lapland across Karelia
and Russia to the Urals for millennia.),
what happened to the NA plant story ?

Are there any Scandinavian marker genes
in the NA plants and trees which Vikings loved
to grow? Or have the flora of Minnesota and
Quebec been so cross-pollinated for centuries
that there are no traces of Scandinavian marker
genes from pre XV centuries ?
David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Alaca]

Post by I.E_Johansson
<snip>

Post by Daryl Krupa
Yes, the maximum tree age in Kalm's time seems to
have been about 350 years. What I see is that Kalm
notes that most trees are less than 200 years old,
and that few trees are more than 300 years old,
when he is in or near New Jersey.
(I do not have the exact page marked; I will try to
find it again.)

<snip>
It's from December 11, 1748.
"This morning I made a little excursion to
Penn's Neck, and across the Delaware to
Wilmington."
This is part of the second paragraph, headed
"The woods of these parts consist of all sorts
of trees, but chiefly of oak and hickory.
They have certainly never been cut down, and
have always grown without hindrance.
It might therefore be expected that there are
trees of an uncommonly great age to be found
in them.
But it happens otherwise, and there are very
few trees three hundred years old.
Most of them are only two hundred years and
this has convinced me that trees have the same
quality as animals, and die after they have
arrived at a certain age.
We find great forests here, but when the trees
in them have stood a hundred and fifty or a
hundred and eighty years,they are either rotting
within, or losing their crown."
-
Daryl Krupa

"
It has happened when I have been out with the natives,
(Wilden, for so we name those who are not born of Christian
parents,) that we have come to a piece of young woodland.
When I have told them, in conversation, that they would do
well to clear off such land, because it would bear good corn,
that they said, "it is but twenty years since we planted corn
there, and now it is woods again."
I asked them severally if it were true, when they all answered
in the affirmative.
This relation was also corroborated by others.
"
Adriaen van der Donck(1640) Description of the New Netherlands. p.149

[Daryl Krupa]

Post by Alaca

Post by I.E_Johansson
<snip>

Post by Daryl Krupa
Yes, the maximum tree age in Kalm's time seems to
have been about 350 years. What I see is that Kalm
notes that most trees are less than 200 years old,
and that few trees are more than 300 years old,
when he is in or near New Jersey.
(I do not have the exact page marked; I will try to
find it again.)

<snip>
It's from December 11, 1748.
"This morning I made a little excursion to
Penn's Neck, and across the Delaware to
Wilmington."
This is part of the second paragraph, headed
"The woods of these parts consist of all sorts
of trees, but chiefly of oak and hickory.
They have certainly never been cut down, and
have always grown without hindrance.
It might therefore be expected that there are
trees of an uncommonly great age to be found
in them.
But it happens otherwise, and there are very
few trees three hundred years old.
Most of them are only two hundred years and
this has convinced me that trees have the same
quality as animals, and die after they have
arrived at a certain age.
We find great forests here, but when the trees
in them have stood a hundred and fifty or a
hundred and eighty years,they are either rotting
within, or losing their crown."
-
Daryl Krupa

"
It has happened when I have been out with the natives,
(Wilden, for so we name those who are not born of Christian
parents,) that we have come to a piece of young woodland.
When I have told them, in conversation, that they would do
well to clear off such land, because it would bear good corn,
that they said, "it is but twenty years since we planted corn
there, and now it is woods again."
I asked them severally if it were true, when they all answered
in the affirmative.
This relation was also corroborated by others.
"
Adriaen van der Donck(1640) Description of the New Netherlands. p.149

Peter Alaca:
INteresting ... confirmation of Kalm's tree-ages.
Donck-eh scheyne.

-
Daryl Krupa

[Alaca]

Post by Alaca

Post by I.E_Johansson
<snip>

Post by Daryl Krupa
Yes, the maximum tree age in Kalm's time seems to
have been about 350 years. What I see is that Kalm
notes that most trees are less than 200 years old,
and that few trees are more than 300 years old,
when he is in or near New Jersey.
(I do not have the exact page marked; I will try to
find it again.)

<snip>
It's from December 11, 1748.
"This morning I made a little excursion to
Penn's Neck, and across the Delaware to
Wilmington."
This is part of the second paragraph, headed
"The woods of these parts consist of all sorts
of trees, but chiefly of oak and hickory.
They have certainly never been cut down, and
have always grown without hindrance.
It might therefore be expected that there are
trees of an uncommonly great age to be found
in them.
But it happens otherwise, and there are very
few trees three hundred years old.
Most of them are only two hundred years and
this has convinced me that trees have the same
quality as animals, and die after they have
arrived at a certain age.
We find great forests here, but when the trees
in them have stood a hundred and fifty or a
hundred and eighty years,they are either rotting
within, or losing their crown."
-
Daryl Krupa

"
It has happened when I have been out with the natives,
(Wilden, for so we name those who are not born of Christian
parents,) that we have come to a piece of young woodland.
When I have told them, in conversation, that they would do
well to clear off such land, because it would bear good corn,
that they said, "it is but twenty years since we planted corn
there, and now it is woods again."
I asked them severally if it were true, when they all answered
in the affirmative.
This relation was also corroborated by others.
"
Adriaen van der Donck(1640) Description of the New Netherlands. p.149

Interesting ... confirmation of Kalm's tree-ages.

Possibly.
Overgrown arable land. An indication for the agricultural system? Diffucult
to say.

[Odysseus]

Daryl Krupa wrote:
<snip>

Post by Daryl Krupa
So a Pope Gregory commissioned a new calendar scheme to
match the actual year length of 365.2425 days (by dropping
most end-of-century Leap Years), and then decreed that it
would be the new standard for the Church calendar as of
October, 1582 (October 5-14 were dropped).

More precisely, the Gregorian year of exactly 365.2425 days was a
better approximation than the Julian year of 365.25 to the true
tropical year of about 365.2422.