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MT VOID, 07/10/15 -- Vol. 34, No. 2, Whole Number 1866 [long]
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Evelyn Leeper
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THE MT VOID
Mt. Holz Science Fiction Society
07/10/15 -- Vol. 34, No. 2, Whole Number 1866

Co-Editor: Mark Leeper, ***@optonline.net
Co-Editor: Evelyn Leeper, ***@optonline.net
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The latest issue is at <http://www.leepers.us/mtvoid/latest.htm>.
An index with links to the issues of the MT VOID since 1986 is at
<http://leepers.us/mtvoid/back_issues.htm>.

Topics:
The Counterfeit "Deguello" (comments by Mark R. Leeper)
Misplaced 1911 Nostalgia (comments by Evelyn C. Leeper)
ANCILLARY SWORD by Ann Leckie (book review
by Gwendolyn Karpierz)
ANCILLARY SWORD by Ann Leckie (book review by Joe Karpierz)
Pronunciation of Town Names (and Others) (letters of comment
by Charles S. Harris and Sam Long)
Irrational Numbers (letter of comment by Charles S. Harris)
This Week's Reading (RAISED FROM THE GROUND and
HAMMETT UNWRITTEN) (book comments by Evelyn C. Leeper)

===================================================================

TOPIC: The Counterfeit "Deguello" (comments by Mark R. Leeper)

On March 6, 1836, the Mexican Army under the command of President
General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna was ready to attack the Alamo
and completely destroy the remaining forces defending it. For
thirteen days Santa Anna had laid siege to the mission turned
fortress. Now the siege was coming to an end as the defenses
crumbled. To encourage his men and to get their blood up he had
his bugler play "Deguello". This melody had a specific purpose and
was announcing to the Mexican troops that now they must kill with
no mercy. This is the music that is played at a bullfight when the
time had come for the matador to kill the bull. Literally the name
means "the throat cutting." This was that point for this battle.
It was intended to encourage the Mexican soldiers and demoralize
the defenders.

Those who have seen the 1960 film THE ALAMO may remember the moment
in the film's depiction. The theater speakers fill with this
melody that sounded like the best of the Tijuana Brass. It is a
sweet but sad piece of music. I knew I had heard it in at least
one other film, but could not quite place it. When I visited the
Alamo, it is that melody that was going through my head. One thing
that bothered me was that it did not sound like anything a single
bugle could play. Santa Anna had an army, but this melody must
have taken several people to play and Santa Anna's army was
elsewhere engaged fighting a battle. This would certainly not be
the only touch of the 1960 film that would have been fabricated for
the film. I was rather skeptical that I was hearing the real
"Deguello". The melody can be heard at


Then just recently I re-watched the 1959 film RIO BRAVO. John
Wayne was defending a whole town besieged by a wealthy rancher who
had hires a small army of men to spring a son who the John Wayne
sheriff has in jail. To demoralize Wayne and his allies they play
"Deguello". And it is the same melody that I already associate with
that name, but it is the melody that seems too fancy to be the
real "Deguello". One of the characters (played by Ricky Nelson--
yech!) recognizes the melody and identifies it as "Deguello",
claiming that was the melody that Santa Anna played at the Alamo.
I guess that is a sort of corroboration. But I was still
skeptical that Santa Anna's troops would play a melody this
complex. I did a little digging.

RIO BRAVO was made the year before THE ALAMO. Dimitri Tiomkin
scored both films. My guess as to what happened is that Tiomkin
composed the melody himself and put it into the film RIO BRAVO in
1959. There the script identified the melody as "Deguello" and
told how it was used at the Alamo. The following year when Tiomkin
scored THE ALAMO he found he had painted himself into a corner and
would have to use the same melody when he scored the depiction of
the battle. Either that or he might have been working on both
movies at the same time and made one a sort of allusion to the
other. It is by far not the only historical inaccuracy in John
Wayne's THE ALAMO.

So I was really anxious to find out what the authentic "Deguello"
really sounded like. YouTube came to the rescue. Yes, "Deguello"
actually could be played on a single bugle and sounds nothing at
all like Tiomkin's version. But it does sound like something else.
The first phrase sounds like it could have been borrowed by ROCKY
(1976).

It can be heard at


While I am on the subject of Tiomkin, he frequently would try to
arrange the music of the film so he could get more money on the
side. When he scored HIGH NOON (1952) he wrote the song "Do Not
Forsake Me" which was used liberally in the film. The song was
very popular and my guess is that it earned Tiomkin a fair amount
on the side. After that he seemed to write a song for every film
he scored. George Stevens did not want to have a song in GIANT
(1956). Tiomkin brought a singer--famous, but I forget who it was-
-to the set and introduced him to George Stevens in the hopes of
changing Stevens's mind. Stevens claims he refused, but the
song did get a release without being sung in the film. [-mrl]

===================================================================

TOPIC: Misplaced 1911 Nostalgia (comments by Evelyn C. Leeper)

An email making the rounds about 1911 claims (among other things)
that there were "about" 230 reported murders in the entire U.S.A.
This set off alarm buzzers in my head.

So I did some googling and came up with the following
reasonable/believable statistics:

- There were at least 60 lynchings of African-Americans. (And I
bet none of these were reported as murders at the time.)
- There were 15-20 killings by the "Atlanta Ripper".
- There were 49 "Mulatto Ax Murders". (This extends a few months
into 1912, so calling it 40 is reasonable.)

The total of these is about 120, before one even looks at any "one-
off" murders: domestic violence, deaths during robberies, and so
on.

And indeed, one blog I found cites "Murder Statistics from
Statistical Abstract of the United States" (United States
Department of Commerce) as saying that the homicide rate for 1911
was 5.5 per 100,000. For a population of about 92,000,000 (1910
census), that would be a little over 5000, *not* 230.

(The murder rate was 4.8 per 100,000 in 2010, a 13% *reduction*.)

So when you get all nostalgic over the way things were, first make
sure that *was* the way things were. [-ecl]

===================================================================

TOPIC: ANCILLARY SWORD by Ann Leckie (copyright 2014, Orbit, $16.00
paperback, 356pp, ISBN 978-0-316-24665-1) (excerpt from the Duel
Fish Codices: a book review by Gwendolyn Karpierz)

ANCILLARY SWORD picks up shortly after ANCILLARY JUSTICE, with Our
Hero Breq--formerly a spaceship controlling countless "ancillary"
bodies, now a spaceship (fleet) captain controlling countless crew
members--being sent off to Athoek Station by the Lord of the Radch
(whom she spent the last book trying to kill... it's a thing).
I'm not actually sure why "the tyrant"--as Breq calls her--needs to
send a ship there, but it doesn't really matter. The reason Breq
consents to go (Breq is a spaceship--she only takes orders she
wants to take, apparently) is because the younger sister of
Lieutenant Awn (whom she spent the last book trying to avenge)
lives on Athoek Station, and Breq wants to ... pay her respects or
something.

Breq interacts with Lieutenant Awn's sister so infrequently during
this book that I don't even remember her name.

I definitely enjoyed ANCILLARY SWORD a great deal more than
ANCILLARY JUSTICE, mostly because I didn't spend the entire book
being denied knowledge of what was going on. And there was a /lot/
going on in ANCILLARY SWORD: Breq arrives at the station to
discover innumerable social injustices crowding up the artificial
air, and she immediately takes it upon herself to fix them. All of
them. At the same time. There are so many threads running through
this novel that it starts to get a little out of hand, and you
think Breq can't possibly solve or resolve all of them by the end.
Leckie, however, does an unexpectedly good job of pulling
everything back together and tying it up properly. It's okay if
the reader forgot about one of the plotlines, because Leckie
didn't--and there were enough others to pay attention to that it
wasn't frustrating to not remember what was going on in that one
over there. There isn't really one central plot thread, unlike in
the first book; this one felt more like a setup for the final book
than one that could entirely stand on its own. (And I would have
been happy to let book one stand on its own.)

Breq herself is shaping up to be an appealing character (and I love
her tendency to sing without noticing), but the problem I have with
her is that--well, there aren't any problems with her. She doesn't
really have any flaws; she knows everything that's going on (mostly
by spying on her crew), she knows just the right solution for
everything that's broken... and even if someone questions one of
her decisions, she turns out to be right in the end. Nothing she
does every really goes wrong, and it gets a little boring knowing
that Breq will do everything right.

The rest of the characters all feel like children? Their emotions
and reactions and interactions are all written as stilted and
simplistic, and none of them seem real to me. I'm not sure if this
is intentional--after all, everything comes to us through Breq's
point-of-view, and as a former spaceship, she is clearly Older and
Wiser than everybody else, and emotions would seem strangely
stilted to her. Except you'd think that after a thousand years
being entrenched in other people's heads, she'd be used to them
having emotions by now.

I suppose in reviewing any book in this series, it's expected to
mention Leckie's choice to refer to everyone using she/her
pronouns, but honestly, at this point it's not worth mentioning
again. It no longer has the novelty it had in the first book, and
it doesn't really accomplish anything; it's just there, another
facet of this civilization. If the author had pushed it a little
harder, it might have been interesting. That's the case for most
of this series, I think: a handful of great concepts, held back and
kept shallow so they don't really amount to anything new. While I
had a lot more fun reading this book than ANCILLARY JUSTICE, I
would have been quite content to /not/ read it, too.

But my favorite part of this series is the fascinating little
twists Leckie plays with in exploring language and language
barriers--like how "radchaai" means "civilized," in a universe
where someone who hasn't been assimilated by the Radch is
considered lower class, and how certain things don't translate at
all. [-gmk]

===================================================================

TOPIC: ANCILLARY SWORD by Ann Leckie (copyright 2014, Orbit, $16.00
paperback, 356pp, ISBN 978-0-316-24665-1) (excerpt from the Duel
Fish Codices: a book review by Joe Karpierz)

Ann Leckie's debut novel, ANCILLARY JUSTICE, was one of the most
successful first novels of all time as measured by the number of
awards won in 2014: Hugo, Nebula, Locus, BSFA, and Arthur
C. Clarke. It was shortlisted for a few other awards too. It was
heralded, in part, due to its treatment of gender and for me, its
concept of ancillaries, the hive mind of the starship that is at
once part of the ship and the ship itself. In my opinion, the
accolades it received were well-deserved.

ANCILLARY JUSTICE was book one of the Imperial Radch series, and
knowing that, many people were looking forward to book two,
ANCILLARY SWORD. ANCILLARY SWORD has already garnered lavish
praise and a couple of awards, this year's BSFA and Locus awards,
and was nominated for the Hugo and Nebula. It didn't win the
Nebula, and the Hugos are to be given out next month, so it still
may end up with three major awards this year.

A little bit of background never hurts. Anaander Mianaai, the Lord
of the Radch, has split into two different personalities. One is
against the military expansion of her empire, and the other, well,
wants it to continue. Breq, our ancillary of Justice of Toren from
ANCILLARY JUSTICE, is adopted into Mianaai's house, made a Fleet
Captain, put in charge of the ship Mercy of Kalr, and sent to the
Athoek system to protect it. The other returning character is
Seivarden, who really doesn't seem to have much place in this
story. Breq, Seivarden, and a 17 year old Lieutenant Tisarwat, who
Anaander forces Breq to take as part of her crew, head for the
Athoek system and, as you might expect, find more than a few things
out of place going on there.

What follows is a series of events that do not seem to have that
much of a relationship to each other. Breq, who is called Fleet
Captain so much so that the reader almost forgets that her name
*is* Breq, attempts to make reparations with Basnaaid, the sister
of Awn, whom Breq loved in ANCILLARY JUSICE. She also meets,
however briefly, a translator for the feared Presger alien race.
She survives an attempt on her life. And there is the question of
the missing transportees from worlds that have been conquered by
the Radch, who Breq suspects have been handed over to a ship
looking to stock up on ancillaries, a practice which has been
banned by the Anaander who is Breq's benefactor.

There appears to be a lot going on here, but on the flip side there
really isn't. The Imperial Radch series is billed as a space
opera, but ANCILLARY SWORD reads almost like a *soap* opera, what
with all the family squabbles and intrigue. And to be a bit nit-
picky about the whole thing, most of the action takes place upon a
space station in the Athoek system, which hardly qualifies it as a
space opera. There's a lot of character interaction and
development going on, but nothing much else actually *happens*
until the aforementioned attempt on the Fleet Captain's life.

ANCILLARY SWORD seems to suffer a bit from "second book in a
trilogy" syndrome. It is clear that Leckie is setting up the story
for the final book, ANCILLARY MERCY, due out later this year. And
while that's okay, my feeling is that in my mind, the book falls
far short of not only the quality of its predecessor, but of the
expectations that were predating its release. The two major
selling points of ANCILLARY JUSTICE, its treatment of gender and
its concept of ancillaries, are almost nonexistent in this volume.
All the characters are referred to as *she*, and the only time one
of the characters is addressed as a male by Breq is when it was
appropriate to do so based on that character's societal norms.
It's almost as if Leckie is saying "been there, done that", rather
than exploring that concept even more than she did in the first
book. Ancillaries, while not non-existent, take a back seat in
this story. The concept certainly plays a part in this story, but
ancillaries are nowhere near as important in this book as they were
in the original.

Having said all that, I actually didn't dislike the book. Rather,
I was disappointed in the book. It feels more pedestrian than it
ought to be. Leckie has built a universe which contains some
fascinating concepts and which appears to be set up for a climactic
battle between the two Anaander Mianaiis. I hope ANCILLARY MERCY
lives up to the expectations that were set by ANCILLARY JUSTICE; if
so, that would redeem a series that started with much promise.
[-jak]

===================================================================

TOPIC: Pronunciation of Town Names (and Others) (letters of comment
by Charles S. Harris and Sam Long)

In response to Peter Trei's comments on town names in the 07/03/15
issue of the MT VOID, Charles Harris writes:

Four of the former Bell Labs locations in NJ were often
mis-pronounced:

Holmdel: Home-dale
Lincroft: Lind-croff
Murray Hill: Murry Hills
Middletown: Middle-tun

Note: Eliding the first "l" in Holmdel is probably more common
than not. Murray Hill is never pronounced Murr-ray. [-csh]

And Sam Long writes:

I enjoyed the discussion on the pronunciation of names in Friday 3
July's MT VOID. I have some comments that may be of interest:

1. Even in Scotland, some pronounce Menzies as "men-zez" and some
as "Minge-ez" and yet others "Ming-ez". You have to ask which to
use.

2. The Scottish grouse called the capercailzie is often written
capercaillie; but it is pronounced "kape-er-cay-lee".

3. Towcester in England is "toaster", just as Worcester is
"wooster" and Bicester is "biss-ter".

4. Athens, Georgia, is "ath-ens" with the ath as in bath; but
Athens, Illinois, is "ay-thins", with the ay as in bay.

5. Cairo, Egypt, is "kye-roe", but Cairo, Illinois, is "kay-ro" as
in Karo Syrup.

6. Up to and past the late-'60s moon landings, the BBC would
pronounce Houston, Texas, as "Hoose-ton", but I understand now they
say "hyus-ton", i.e., like Euston Station but with an H preceding
it, same as we do.

7. I've heard Dalziel pronounced "Dal-yell". never "dal-zeal", and
not "deal" or "de-al" either.

8. The British pronunciations "zed" and "shed-yule" for Z and
schedule are historically more justified than American "zee" and
"sked-yule", but both are acceptable, and neither will change.
When I was teaching my son, whose mother is British, the alphabet
decades ago, I would sing the Alphabet Song, but end it with:

Q, R, S, and T, U V,
W, and X, Y, Zee,
Or, as it is sometimes said,
W, and X, Y, Zed.

[-sl]

Evelyn adds:

<http://tinyurl.com/void-20-towns> lists "20 Towns Named for Other
Towns But Pronounced Differently", of which the best known is
probably Lima, Ohio. [-ecl]

===================================================================

TOPIC: Irrational Numbers (letter of comment by Charles S. Harris)

In response to Mark's comments about irrational numbers in the
07/03/15 issue of the MT VOID, Charles Harris writes:

[Mark said,] "Now isn't that interesting? The factor we cancelled
from the numerator and denominator is 142857. Notice anything
familiar about that number?"

Just to make sure I'm not missing something: You mean familiar
because you've just been discussing its 1-rotation, right?
Not that it's well-known for some other reason (e.g. it's an
important physical constant, or the number of troops in a
historic battle)? [-csh]

Mark replies:

Right. It was almost the same as the segment of digits I has just
mentioned. That is no coincidence. Actually coincidences are hard
to come by in math. Pretty much everything is connected to
everything else. [-mrl]

===================================================================

TOPIC: This Week's Reading (book comments by Evelyn C. Leeper)

RAISED FROM THE GROUND by Jose Saramago (translated by Margaret
Jull Costa) (ISBN 978-0-15-101325-8) was written in 1980 but not
translated into English until 2012. In general, this is not a good
sign, and the fact that even after Saramago won the Nobel Prize for
Literature in 1998, it *still* took fourteen years for it to be
published in English.

RAISED FROM THE GROUND was reviewed in "The Guardian" by Ursula
K. LeGuin, who wrote of Saramago, "Saramago left journalism and
began writing novels late in his life, as if a fine old apple tree
should suddenly grow heavy with fruit." LeGuin compares RAISED
FROM THE GROUND to two other "novels of the oppressed": UNCLE TOM'S
CABIN and THE GRAPES OF WRATH.

And that, oddly, may be the reason for the delay. Most of
Saramago's later novels have some fantastical element, but RAISED
FROM THE GROUND is a realist novel. One wonders if publishers had
decided that people expected something "unusual" from Saramago, and
so this was put on the back burner.

HAMMETT UNWRITTEN by Owen Fitzstephen (pen name for Gordon
McAlpine) (ISBN 978-1-51514-714-3) is a convoluted novel. The
author listed on the cover, "Owen Fitzstephen", is actually a
character in Dashiell Hammett's novel THE DAIN CURSE. The plot
takes place between 1922 and 1959, and begins with the "true"
events that Hammett (supposedly) experienced that he converted into
THE MALTESE FALCON. The characters are all the people who
(supposedly) took part in those events, plus others he met later,
such as Lillian Hellman, John Huston, and so on. It turns out that
while the Falcon wasn't all it was claimed to be, it may not be
entirely mundane either.

In addition to treating fiction as fact, or at least claiming there
is fact behind the fiction, Fitzstephen/McAlpine has his narrative
jumping around in time, at least at the beginning, going from 1922
to 1959 to 1933 before settling in to a mostly linear story, though
with many references to previous events. Even if you do not
entirely believe the explanations within the novel, they do manage
to explain events that happened in our world. This is a must for
fans of meta-fiction and of Dashiell Hammett. [-ecl]

===================================================================

Mark Leeper
***@optonline.net


There exists, if I am not mistaken, an entire world
which is the totality of mathematical truths, to
which we have access only with our mind, just as a
world of physical reality exists, the one like the
other independent of ourselves, both of divine
creation.
--Charles Hermite
Kevrob
2015-07-13 15:37:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evelyn Leeper
THE MT VOID
Mt. Holz Science Fiction Society
07/10/15 -- Vol. 34, No. 2, Whole Number 1866
TOPIC: Pronunciation of Town Names (and Others) (letters of comment
by Charles S. Harris and Sam Long)
In response to Peter Trei's comments on town names in the 07/03/15
Four of the former Bell Labs locations in NJ were often
Holmdel: Home-dale
Lincroft: Lind-croff
Murray Hill: Murry Hills
Middletown: Middle-tun
Note: Eliding the first "l" in Holmdel is probably more common
than not. Murray Hill is never pronounced Murr-ray. [-csh]
I enjoyed the discussion on the pronunciation of names in Friday 3
1. Even in Scotland, some pronounce Menzies as "men-zez" and some
as "Minge-ez" and yet others "Ming-ez". You have to ask which to
use.
2. The Scottish grouse called the capercailzie is often written
capercaillie; but it is pronounced "kape-er-cay-lee".
I know Capercaillie from the Scottish folk band.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capercaillie_(band)

I was ignorant of the namesake wood grouse, but always thought the
name was some sort of Gàidhlig pun, caper being English for dancing,
and cèilidh the Gàidhlig for a dance party.
Post by Evelyn Leeper
5. Cairo, Egypt, is "kye-roe", but Cairo, Illinois, is "kay-ro" as
in Karo Syrup.
And the area of downstate Illinois near Cairo was dubbed "Little Egypt."

Kevin R
Paul Dormer
2015-07-13 17:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evelyn Leeper
When I was teaching my son, whose mother is British, the alphabet
Q, R, S, and T, U V,
W, and X, Y, Zee,
Or, as it is sometimes said,
W, and X, Y, Zed.
When I was at primary school, way back in the middle of the last century
in England, I don't recall ever being taught a song to sing for the
alphabet, more a chant. And there was no zee in it at all. It was
chanted with no rhymes whatsoever, that I recall, more blank verse.
Kevrob
2015-07-13 20:22:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Evelyn Leeper
When I was teaching my son, whose mother is British, the alphabet
Q, R, S, and T, U V,
W, and X, Y, Zee,
Or, as it is sometimes said,
W, and X, Y, Zed.
When I was at primary school, way back in the middle of the last century
in England, I don't recall ever being taught a song to sing for the
alphabet, more a chant. And there was no zee in it at all. It was
chanted with no rhymes whatsoever, that I recall, more blank verse.
In the US, the "alphabet song" is the same tune as is used for
"Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star."

Says here, the English got it from the French.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkle,_Twinkle,_Little_Star

See also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_song

Kevin R
Kerr Mudd-John
2015-07-13 20:31:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Evelyn Leeper
When I was teaching my son, whose mother is British, the alphabet
Q, R, S, and T, U V,
W, and X, Y, Zee,
Or, as it is sometimes said,
W, and X, Y, Zed.
When I was at primary school, way back in the middle of the last century
in England, I don't recall ever being taught a song to sing for the
alphabet, more a chant. And there was no zee in it at all. It was
chanted with no rhymes whatsoever, that I recall, more blank verse.
In the US, the "alphabet song" is the same tune as is used for
"Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star."
Says here, the English got it from the French.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkle,_Twinkle,_Little_Star
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_song
Kevin R
That's as maybe, but in the 50's and early 60's it was just a chant for us
Brits.

"2 twos are 4, 3 twos are six" ect.

Rote learning, just like them poor muslim kids have to do with their koran.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug
Kevrob
2015-07-13 22:03:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Evelyn Leeper
When I was teaching my son, whose mother is British, the alphabet
Q, R, S, and T, U V,
W, and X, Y, Zee,
Or, as it is sometimes said,
W, and X, Y, Zed.
When I was at primary school, way back in the middle of the last century
in England, I don't recall ever being taught a song to sing for the
alphabet, more a chant. And there was no zee in it at all. It was
chanted with no rhymes whatsoever, that I recall, more blank verse.
In the US, the "alphabet song" is the same tune as is used for
"Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star."
Says here, the English got it from the French.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkle,_Twinkle,_Little_Star
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_song
Kevin R
That's as maybe, but in the 50's and early 60's it was just a chant for us
Brits.
"2 twos are 4, 3 twos are six" ect.
Rote learning, just like them poor muslim kids have to do with their koran.
Re: ect. Back to Latin class for more rote learning? :)

I got plenty of rote learning, in US Catholic school, in the early 60s. The
"alphabet song" was for kindergarteners, though. Once one was in first grade
you had to learn those chicken scratches - in print AND in cursive.

My high school chemistry teacher made the class chant the periodic table.
She'd roll up the large table that hung from the top of the chalkboard,
and bang her desk with her pointer to keep time.

"Hydrogen, helium, lithium, berylium,
Boron, Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen,
Fluorine, Neon, Sodium, Manganese,....

etc, etc, and so on until we stumbled.

It worked. I scored 780 out of 800 on the College Board Chemistry
Achievement test. It might have killed my taste for further study
in the hard sciences, though.

Kevin R
Keith F. Lynch
2015-07-14 02:41:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
Post by Kevrob
In the US, the "alphabet song" is the same tune as is used for
"Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star."
Right. One one of my filk DVDs, the singer switches back and forth
randomly between the two sets of lyrics.
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
Rote learning, just like them poor muslim kids have to do with their koran.
My high school chemistry teacher made the class chant the periodic
table. She'd roll up the large table that hung from the top of the
chalkboard, and bang her desk with her pointer to keep time.
"Hydrogen, helium, lithium, berylium,
Boron, Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen,
Fluorine, Neon, Sodium, Manganese,....
etc, etc, and so on until we stumbled.
It worked. I scored 780 out of 800 on the College Board Chemistry
Achievement test.
Surprising, since you got one of those elements wrong.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Kevrob
2015-07-14 03:31:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
Post by Kevrob
In the US, the "alphabet song" is the same tune as is used for
"Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star."
Right. One one of my filk DVDs, the singer switches back and forth
randomly between the two sets of lyrics.
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
Rote learning, just like them poor muslim kids have to do with their koran.
My high school chemistry teacher made the class chant the periodic
table. She'd roll up the large table that hung from the top of the
chalkboard, and bang her desk with her pointer to keep time.
"Hydrogen, helium, lithium, berylium,
Boron, Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen,
Fluorine, Neon, Sodium, Manganese,....
etc, etc, and so on until we stumbled.
It worked. I scored 780 out of 800 on the College Board Chemistry
Achievement test.
Surprising, since you got one of those elements wrong.
Well, that test was 44 years ago, and I haven't studied any chemistry
afterwards.

I stopped when I stumbled. Magnesium, not Manganese, right?

Obviously, I shouldn't have joked about Kerr's "ect" typo.
That always guarantees an error in the post.

Kevin R
Kerr Mudd-John
2015-07-14 08:01:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
Post by Kevrob
In the US, the "alphabet song" is the same tune as is used for
"Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star."
Right. One one of my filk DVDs, the singer switches back and forth
randomly between the two sets of lyrics.
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
Rote learning, just like them poor muslim kids have to do with their koran.
My high school chemistry teacher made the class chant the periodic
table. She'd roll up the large table that hung from the top of the
chalkboard, and bang her desk with her pointer to keep time.
"Hydrogen, helium, lithium, berylium,
Boron, Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen,
Fluorine, Neon, Sodium, Manganese,....
etc, etc, and so on until we stumbled.
It worked. I scored 780 out of 800 on the College Board Chemistry
Achievement test.
Surprising, since you got one of those elements wrong.
Well, that test was 44 years ago, and I haven't studied any chemistry
afterwards.
I stopped when I stumbled. Magnesium, not Manganese, right?
Obviously, I shouldn't have joked about Kerr's "ect" typo.
That always guarantees an error in the post.
I alwis spel it ect. 'Tis an affectation.
Post by Kevrob
Kevin R
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug
Paul Dormer
2015-07-14 09:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
I alwis spel it ect. 'Tis an affectation.
You are Nigel Molesworth and I claim my five pounds.
Kerr Mudd-John
2015-07-14 09:57:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
I alwis spel it ect. 'Tis an affectation.
You are Nigel Molesworth and I claim my five pounds.
I do channel him sometimes.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug
Cryptoengineer
2015-07-15 01:04:43 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:38:00 +0100, Paul Dormer
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
I alwis spel it ect. 'Tis an affectation.
You are Nigel Molesworth and I claim my five pounds.
I do channel him sometimes.
I wonder how many non-Britons understand that reference.

pt
Kerr Mudd-John
2015-07-15 08:46:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cryptoengineer
On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:38:00 +0100, Paul Dormer
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
I alwis spel it ect. 'Tis an affectation.
You are Nigel Molesworth and I claim my five pounds.
I do channel him sometimes.
I wonder how many non-Britons understand that reference.
pt
Anyone with access to wikipedia I'd imagine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Molesworth
or fans of Deep Purple. Any Fule Kno That.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug
p***@gmail.com
2015-07-15 13:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
Post by Cryptoengineer
On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:38:00 +0100, Paul Dormer
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
I alwis spel it ect. 'Tis an affectation.
You are Nigel Molesworth and I claim my five pounds.
I do channel him sometimes.
I wonder how many non-Britons understand that reference.
pt
Anyone with access to wikipedia I'd imagine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Molesworth
or fans of Deep Purple. Any Fule Kno That.
After not thinking about St. Custard's for at least 40
years, just a month ago I listened to a BBC Radio
drama based on the books - much fun.

But let me assure you, Nigel utterly obscure on
this side of the pond - even St. Trinians is better
known.

pt
Paul Dormer
2015-07-15 15:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
After not thinking about St. Custard's for at least 40
years, just a month ago I listened to a BBC Radio
drama based on the books - much fun.
Was that the one with Imelda Staunton, of all people, as Nigel? It was
broadcast over Christmas and I must admit I gave up on it. Not a patch
on the books.

But I did see Staunton in Gypsy in the West End recently. Magnificent
performance. (Not sure about the musical.)
p***@gmail.com
2015-07-15 15:46:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by p***@gmail.com
After not thinking about St. Custard's for at least 40
years, just a month ago I listened to a BBC Radio
drama based on the books - much fun.
Was that the one with Imelda Staunton, of all people, as Nigel? It was
broadcast over Christmas and I must admit I gave up on it. Not a patch
on the books.
But I did see Staunton in Gypsy in the West End recently. Magnificent
performance. (Not sure about the musical.)
Almost certainly. I, too, was kind of underwhelmed by the overall adaption.
It was more a nostalgia trip for me. My father gave me the books when I
went off to boarding school at age 11.

pt
Paul Dormer
2015-07-16 09:45:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Almost certainly. I, too, was kind of underwhelmed by the overall
adaption. It was more a nostalgia trip for me. My father gave me the
books when I went off to boarding school at age 11.
I never read them till about fifteen years ago (when I was in my late
forties), although I had seen extracts and parodies by then. The
complete set came out as a Penguin Classic.

Curiously, although now considered mainly a children's book, and parts
appeared in a children's magazine called The Young Elizabethan, it
appears to be based on a column that appeared in Punch, never a magazine
known for the youth of its readership.

I do wonder how many references pass younger readers by, especially today.
Colin Wilson, T.S. Eliot, Marcel Proust. This essay is interesting:

http://ind.pn/1fLlNYE
p***@gmail.com
2015-07-16 13:50:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by p***@gmail.com
Almost certainly. I, too, was kind of underwhelmed by the overall
adaption. It was more a nostalgia trip for me. My father gave me the
books when I went off to boarding school at age 11.
I never read them till about fifteen years ago (when I was in my late
forties), although I had seen extracts and parodies by then. The
complete set came out as a Penguin Classic.
Curiously, although now considered mainly a children's book, and parts
appeared in a children's magazine called The Young Elizabethan, it
appears to be based on a column that appeared in Punch, never a magazine
known for the youth of its readership.
I do wonder how many references pass younger readers by, especially today.
http://ind.pn/1fLlNYE
Nice article. I can remember, at 11, fully understanding the references
to Proust and TS Eliot, but having no clue about Colin Wilson (I had
not been in Britain long at that point).

I started at boarding school about a decade after the books appeared, and
much of the dialog was recognizable as a witty satire on what I was hearing
around me.

pt
Paul Dormer
2015-07-16 15:44:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Nice article. I can remember, at 11, fully understanding the
references
to Proust and TS Eliot, but having no clue about Colin Wilson (I had
not been in Britain long at that point).
Incidentally, I recommend the story Teddy Bears' Picnic by Kim Newman and
Eugene Byrne. It's part of their Back in the USSA series about a world
where the USA has a communist revolution in 1917.

The story is about the Vietnam war only it's the UK involved, and a lot
of the humour involves British TV of the period. One of the jokes
revolves around William Hartnell playing both Dr Who and the drill
sergeant in Carry on Sergeant.

Then it seques into Apocalypse Now territory with the protagonist (one of
the Likely Lads from the sitcom of that name) finds himself in the
company of Molesworth who is heading up river to capture Colonel
Fotherington Thomas who has gone rogue. As Fotherington Thomas emerges
from his hut, he says, "Hello trees, hello sky, hello birds, hello pile
of severed skulls."
T Guy
2015-07-17 12:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by p***@gmail.com
Nice article. I can remember, at 11, fully understanding the
references
to Proust and TS Eliot, but having no clue about Colin Wilson (I had
not been in Britain long at that point).
Incidentally, I recommend the story Teddy Bears' Picnic by Kim Newman and
Eugene Byrne. It's part of their Back in the USSA series about a world
where the USA has a communist revolution in 1917.
The story is about the Vietnam war only it's the UK involved, and a lot
of the humour involves British TV of the period. One of the jokes
revolves around William Hartnell playing both Dr Who and the drill
sergeant in Carry on Sergeant.
Then it seques into Apocalypse Now territory with the protagonist (one of
the Likely Lads from the sitcom of that name) finds himself in the
company of Molesworth who is heading up river to capture Colonel
Fotherington Thomas who has gone rogue. As Fotherington Thomas emerges
from his hut, he says, "Hello trees, hello sky, hello birds, hello pile
of severed skulls."
LoL!

The one of the likely lads would be Terry Collyer - Bob was a QS as far as I can work out.

I hereby make a note to investigate 'Teddy Bears' Picnic' by Kim Newman and Eugene Byrne, and indeed their Back in the USSA series as a whole possibly.
Paul Dormer
2015-07-17 16:02:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by T Guy
The one of the likely lads would be Terry Collyer - Bob was a QS as far as I can work out.
Went back and checked and I'd misremembered. Both Likely Lads end up in
the company of Nigel Molesworth, who is also accompanied by officers
called Jennings and Darbishire.
p***@gmail.com
2015-07-17 17:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by T Guy
The one of the likely lads would be Terry Collyer - Bob was a QS as
far as I can work out.
Went back and checked and I'd misremembered. Both Likely Lads end up in
the company of Nigel Molesworth, who is also accompanied by officers
called Jennings and Darbishire.
Two more names very, very few Americans have ever heard of. The 'school story'
doesn't really exist here; too few people go to boarding schools. The 'Harry
Potter' series is the only example most people here have seen.

There's a lot of other YA series which didn't travel well - 'Famous Five', for
example. Arthur Ransome did a little better, as did The Railway Children.
Narnia too, but that doesn't feel like quite the same genre.

Most of it, however, did not travel well in time - they now feel like period
pieces.

We have our own series; Tom Swift, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew spring to mind. I'm
sure there are others, but I wasnt' in the US at the right age to become aware
of them.

pt
Kevrob
2015-07-17 17:25:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by T Guy
The one of the likely lads would be Terry Collyer - Bob was a QS as
far as I can work out.
Went back and checked and I'd misremembered. Both Likely Lads end up in
the company of Nigel Molesworth, who is also accompanied by officers
called Jennings and Darbishire.
Two more names very, very few Americans have ever heard of. The 'school story'
doesn't really exist here; too few people go to boarding schools. The 'Harry
Potter' series is the only example most people here have seen.
There's a lot of other YA series which didn't travel well - 'Famous Five', for
example. Arthur Ransome did a little better, as did The Railway Children.
Narnia too, but that doesn't feel like quite the same genre.
Most of it, however, did not travel well in time - they now feel like period
pieces.
We have our own series; Tom Swift, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew spring to mind. I'm
sure there are others, but I wasnt' in the US at the right age to become aware
of them.
pt
We did have College (university) stories - Frank Merriwell at Yale.
I knew the Rover Boys because they were parodied in a Warner Brothers cartoon.

Tom Brown's Schooldays was probably the pure drop, with the Hollywood
version a bit diluted. There was a Masterpiece Theatre series
in the 70s or early 80s, which was probably BBC, but maybe from the
Lew Grade or LTW vaults.

Kevin R
Paul Dormer
2015-07-17 17:44:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Tom Brown's Schooldays was probably the pure drop, with the
Hollywood version a bit diluted.
Which reminds me.

The opening section of Pyramids by Pratchett has a character called
Fliemoe. As a Flymo is a brand of lawn mower I once queried on the
Pratchett news group if this was significant.

Terry replied that the whole set up of the assassins guild school was
based on Tom Brown's Schooldays. One of Flashman's henchmen in that was
called Speedicut and a Speedicut was a brand of lawn mower.
Kevrob
2015-07-17 20:02:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Kevrob
Tom Brown's Schooldays was probably the pure drop, with the
Hollywood version a bit diluted.
Which reminds me.
The opening section of Pyramids by Pratchett has a character called
Fliemoe. As a Flymo is a brand of lawn mower I once queried on the
Pratchett news group if this was significant.
Terry replied that the whole set up of the assassins guild school was
based on Tom Brown's Schooldays. One of Flashman's henchmen in that was
called Speedicut and a Speedicut was a brand of lawn mower.
That's good!

BTW, Auntie Beeb was responsible for the TBS on Masterpiece.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068142/

This was the 1940 version I saw much earlier in my youth.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033169/?ref_=fn_al_tt_4

Kevin R
Keith F. Lynch
2015-07-18 02:50:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
We have our own series; Tom Swift, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew spring
to mind. I'm sure there are others, but I wasnt' in the US at the
right age to become aware of them.
Rick Brant was my favorite.

Peter was the right age for those series? He must be much older than
I thought. Nancy Drew appeared in 1930, the Hardy Boys in 1927, and
Tom Swift in 1910.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Kevrob
2015-07-18 10:48:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by p***@gmail.com
We have our own series; Tom Swift, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew spring
to mind. I'm sure there are others, but I wasnt' in the US at the
right age to become aware of them.
Rick Brant was my favorite.
Peter was the right age for those series? He must be much older than
I thought. Nancy Drew appeared in 1930, the Hardy Boys in 1927, and
Tom Swift in 1910.
Books produced by the Stratemeyer Syndicate were, starting in the 1950s,
revised to remove out-of-date elements.

This stuff is still being published.

http://tinyurl.com/ATLHBND or http://preview.tinyurl.com/ATLHBND

which is

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/05/hardy-boys-nancy-drew-ghostwriters/394022/

I never read the Brant books, but......

1) The scientist dad

2) The plucky son

3) His Indian friend

4) The hired muscle and

5) The faithful dog

When I saw all that, it all seemed familiar.

A quick search showed I wasn't the first to speculate. See
Martin Grams' website:

http://tinyurl.com/RBEAJQ or http://preview.tinyurl.com/RBEAJQ

which is

http://martingrams.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-original-1964-65-jonny-quest.html

JONNY QUEST was originally supposed to be an updated version of Wheaties
cereal avatar and radio adventure serial character JACK ARMSTRONG, ALL-
AMERICAN BOY, but Hanna-Barbera couldn't secure the rights.

Grams spotted the similarity to the Brant books, and blogged about it.

Kevin R
Scott Dorsey
2015-07-18 12:29:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Peter was the right age for those series? He must be much older than
I thought. Nancy Drew appeared in 1930, the Hardy Boys in 1927, and
Tom Swift in 1910.
Books produced by the Stratemeyer Syndicate were, starting in the 1950s,
revised to remove out-of-date elements.
To be more precise, they were completely rewritten from the bottom up,
often with different plots entirely. So the 1930s edition of "The Sinister
Signpost" bears no connection with the 1960s version over than the title
and the basic characters.

I read many of them as a child and invariably thought the earlier versions
were far better, in spite of some very confusing anachronisms. ("I will
fix your tire... with my vulcanizing machine.")
Post by Kevrob
JONNY QUEST was originally supposed to be an updated version of Wheaties
cereal avatar and radio adventure serial character JACK ARMSTRONG, ALL-
AMERICAN BOY, but Hanna-Barbera couldn't secure the rights.
Don't forget to watch original unexpurgated Jonny Quest episodes on 16mm
at Arisia.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Kevrob
2015-07-18 15:57:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Kevrob
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Peter was the right age for those series? He must be much older than
I thought. Nancy Drew appeared in 1930, the Hardy Boys in 1927, and
Tom Swift in 1910.
Books produced by the Stratemeyer Syndicate were, starting in the 1950s,
revised to remove out-of-date elements.
To be more precise, they were completely rewritten from the bottom up,
often with different plots entirely. So the 1930s edition of "The Sinister
Signpost" bears no connection with the 1960s version over than the title
and the basic characters.
Yes. The linked Atlantic article points that out.
Post by Scott Dorsey
I read many of them as a child and invariably thought the earlier versions
were far better, in spite of some very confusing anachronisms. ("I will
fix your tire... with my vulcanizing machine.")
That wouldn't have bothered me. I was a nut for reading biographies as
a lid, so had run across Goodyear's life story.

I would have enjoyed the period pieces.
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Kevrob
JONNY QUEST was originally supposed to be an updated version of Wheaties
cereal avatar and radio adventure serial character JACK ARMSTRONG, ALL-
AMERICAN BOY, but Hanna-Barbera couldn't secure the rights.
Don't forget to watch original unexpurgated Jonny Quest episodes on 16mm
at Arisia.
Kevin R
Scott Dorsey
2015-07-18 17:03:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Yes. The linked Atlantic article points that out.
Post by Scott Dorsey
I read many of them as a child and invariably thought the earlier versions
were far better, in spite of some very confusing anachronisms. ("I will
fix your tire... with my vulcanizing machine.")
That wouldn't have bothered me. I was a nut for reading biographies as
a lid, so had run across Goodyear's life story.
I had too, but who revulcanizes rubber by the side of the road? Apparently
this was a thing that was done in the 1930s when tires were not as
sophisticated or reliable as they are today.
Post by Kevrob
I would have enjoyed the period pieces.
By all means you should read them. It is not too late, they are still
available and they are still enjoyable in a weird sort of way.

You may also enjoy the Radio Boys, which basically has absolutely nothing
to do with radio but has to some some sort of vague radio tie-in with every
volume because radio was modern and interesting to kids. Much the way
microcomputers were in the eighties when similar tie-ins in YA books were
common.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Keith F. Lynch
2015-07-22 01:41:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
I had too, but who revulcanizes rubber by the side of the road?
Apparently this was a thing that was done in the 1930s when tires
were not as sophisticated or reliable as they are today.
They added sulfur to existing tires? Because the sulfur from the
original vulcanization had fallen out?

"You there! Fill it up with petroleum distillate and re-vulcanize my
tires, post-haste!" -- Mr. Burns
Post by Scott Dorsey
By all means you should read them. It is not too late, they are still
available and they are still enjoyable in a weird sort of way.
You may also enjoy the Radio Boys, which basically has absolutely
nothing to do with radio but has to some some sort of vague radio
tie-in with every volume because radio was modern and interesting to
kids. Much the way microcomputers were in the eighties when similar
tie-ins in YA books were common.
I have _The Boys of Wireless_ by Frank V. Webster (1912), which *is*
all about radio. (Wikipedia says he was another Stratemeyer Syndicate
pseudonym.) My copy was a gift to someone in return for perfect
Sunday School attendence in 1923. I hope all my books likewise still
have good homes in another 92 years.

It adds to my enjoyment of that juvenile novel that I do happen to
know a lot about the early history of radio. But that also detracts,
as the station described was primitive for 1912 but did things that
even up-to-date stations that year couldn't have done.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Scott Dorsey
2015-07-22 02:34:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Scott Dorsey
I had too, but who revulcanizes rubber by the side of the road?
Apparently this was a thing that was done in the 1930s when tires
were not as sophisticated or reliable as they are today.
They added sulfur to existing tires? Because the sulfur from the
original vulcanization had fallen out?
I have absolutely no idea what anyone would do to use a "vulcanizing machine"
to fix a flat tire. THAT is the whole point of my confusion.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Cryptoengineer
2015-07-22 03:44:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Scott Dorsey
I had too, but who revulcanizes rubber by the side of the road?
Apparently this was a thing that was done in the 1930s when tires
were not as sophisticated or reliable as they are today.
They added sulfur to existing tires? Because the sulfur from the
original vulcanization had fallen out?
I have absolutely no idea what anyone would do to use a "vulcanizing
machine" to fix a flat tire. THAT is the whole point of my confusion.
--scott
My suspicion is that it refers to a patching process, melting new
new rubber onto the patch.

...but thats just a guess.

pt
Cryptoengineer
2015-07-22 03:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Scott Dorsey
I had too, but who revulcanizes rubber by the side of the road?
Apparently this was a thing that was done in the 1930s when tires
were not as sophisticated or reliable as they are today.
They added sulfur to existing tires? Because the sulfur from the
original vulcanization had fallen out?
I have absolutely no idea what anyone would do to use a "vulcanizing
machine" to fix a flat tire. THAT is the whole point of my confusion.
--scott
My suspicion is that it refers to a patching process, melting new
new rubber onto the patch.
...but thats just a guess.
Yup, it is


pt
Alan Woodford
2015-07-22 05:08:49 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 22:44:36 -0500, Cryptoengineer
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Scott Dorsey
I had too, but who revulcanizes rubber by the side of the road?
Apparently this was a thing that was done in the 1930s when tires
were not as sophisticated or reliable as they are today.
They added sulfur to existing tires? Because the sulfur from the
original vulcanization had fallen out?
I have absolutely no idea what anyone would do to use a "vulcanizing
machine" to fix a flat tire. THAT is the whole point of my confusion.
--scott
My suspicion is that it refers to a patching process, melting new
new rubber onto the patch.
...but thats just a guess.
I was recently reading "Motor vehicles and their engines" by Edward S
Fraser and Ralph B Jones from 1919, and it frequently refers to
vulcanizing inner tubes as preferable to patching them, but it never
explains the process in detail, other than to suggest that a "small
gasoline torch vulcanizer" is a useful addition to one's toolkit.

So you are almost certainly right!

Alan Woodford
The Greying Lensman
David Harmon
2015-07-23 01:41:21 UTC
Permalink
On 18 Jul 2015 13:03:27 -0400 in rec.arts.sf.fandom, ***@panix.com
(Scott Dorsey) wrote,
Post by Scott Dorsey
I had too, but who revulcanizes rubber by the side of the road? Apparently
AKA a Hot Patch
Post by Scott Dorsey
this was a thing that was done in the 1930s when tires were not as
sophisticated or reliable as they are today.
and/or when rubber cement was not as good as today.
Philip Chee
2015-07-18 18:35:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
That wouldn't have bothered me. I was a nut for reading biographies as
a lid, so had run across Goodyear's life story.
You were a lid? What's a lid?

(every time I think I have the English language sussed out, something
like this happens)

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Kevrob
2015-07-18 18:50:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Post by Kevrob
That wouldn't have bothered me. I was a nut for reading biographies as
a lid, so had run across Goodyear's life story.
You were a lid? What's a lid?
A single guy.

I'm still single, and still a lid. Y'know,
"there's a lid for every pot."

They used to sell pot in lids, marijuana-wise.
Approx an ounce.

Or, maybe its a typo for "kid."
Post by Philip Chee
(every time I think I have the English language sussed out, something
like this happens)
It's constantly changing.

Kevin R
T Guy
2015-07-20 13:02:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Philip Chee
Post by Kevrob
That wouldn't have bothered me. I was a nut for reading biographies as
a lid, so had run across Goodyear's life story.
You were a lid? What's a lid?
A single guy.
I'm still single, and still a lid. Y'know,
"there's a lid for every pot."
They used to sell pot in lids, marijuana-wise.
Approx an ounce.
Or, maybe its a typo for "kid."
Post by Philip Chee
(every time I think I have the English language sussed out, something
like this happens)
It's constantly changing.
I assumed that it was a typo for 'kid,' then wondered if it were an incorrect shortening of rhyming slang 'bin lid' = 'kid.'
Keith F. Lynch
2015-07-21 02:27:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
I was a nut for reading biographies as a lid, so had run across
Goodyear's life story.
You were a lid? What's a lid?
A single guy.
It's also an amateur radio term for an incompetent, inconsiderate, or
malicious radio user.
Post by Kevrob
Or, maybe its a typo for "kid."
You were a baby goat?
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Philip Chee
2015-07-20 12:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Books produced by the Stratemeyer Syndicate were, starting in the 1950s,
revised to remove out-of-date elements.
This stuff is still being published.
http://tinyurl.com/ATLHBND or http://preview.tinyurl.com/ATLHBND
which is
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/05/hardy-boys-nancy-drew-ghostwriters/394022/
I was about the right age when the Bobbsey Twins were re-written in the
1960s. Even at that early age I was scratching my head about the timber
wagons being pulled by horses. Or perhaps that volumn hadn't been
rewritten yet.

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Keith F. Lynch
2015-07-21 02:49:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Rick Brant was my favorite.
I never read the Brant books, but......
1) The scientist dad
2) The plucky son
3) His Indian friend
4) The hired muscle and
5) The faithful dog
When I saw all that, it all seemed familiar.
It's been done several times, with minor variants. For instance Danny
Dunn, though that series was much more juvenile. _Danny Dunn and the
Homework Machine_ had a remarkably accurate view of computers for
a 1950s juvenile novel. But most of the other Danny Dunn novels
featured science that was far less plausible, to put it mildly.

The Rick Brant series seems to be very obscure. My brother inherited
my set. I know a woman in PRSFS who has a set. I later met another
woman who heard of them, but it turned out she was the sister of the
PRSFS woman. So maybe only two sets were ever printed.

Rick was almost grown up. He had his own small airplane, he traveled
widely without his parents, and he worked at various jobs away from
home. He even traveled into space alone -- in the 1950s. But most
of the action was on his home island in New Jersey. The science was
mostly plausible. Perhaps the most remarkable thing about the series
is that it made New Jersey seem interesting and exotic.

Perhaps the most implausible thing was that his Indian friend (dot,
not feather) had memorized the whole _World Almanac_, word for word.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Kevrob
2015-07-21 03:57:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Kevrob
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Rick Brant was my favorite.
I never read the Brant books, but......
1) The scientist dad
2) The plucky son
3) His Indian friend
4) The hired muscle and
5) The faithful dog
When I saw all that, it all seemed familiar.
It's been done several times, with minor variants. For instance Danny
Dunn, though that series was much more juvenile. _Danny Dunn and the
Homework Machine_ had a remarkably accurate view of computers for
a 1950s juvenile novel. But most of the other Danny Dunn novels
featured science that was far less plausible, to put it mildly.
The Rick Brant series seems to be very obscure. My brother inherited
my set. I know a woman in PRSFS who has a set. I later met another
woman who heard of them, but it turned out she was the sister of the
PRSFS woman. So maybe only two sets were ever printed.
Rick was almost grown up. He had his own small airplane, he traveled
widely without his parents, and he worked at various jobs away from
home. He even traveled into space alone -- in the 1950s. But most
of the action was on his home island in New Jersey. The science was
mostly plausible. Perhaps the most remarkable thing about the series
is that it made New Jersey seem interesting and exotic.
Perhaps the most implausible thing was that his Indian friend (dot,
not feather) had memorized the whole _World Almanac_, word for word.
My local library had what I assume was a complete-to-current-date
run of the Danny Dunn series. "Homework Machine" made the biggest
impression on me. DD and the Weather Machine had some useful tips,
like how to judge wind speed from visual clues, like the movement of
leaves and branches, or ripples on a pond. Boy scout stuff,I know,
but I wasn't a scout.

Kevin R
Keith F. Lynch
2015-07-22 01:29:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
My local library had what I assume was a complete-to-current-date
run of the Danny Dunn series. "Homework Machine" made the biggest
impression on me. DD and the Weather Machine had some useful tips,
like how to judge wind speed from visual clues, like the movement of
leaves and branches, or ripples on a pond.
Other novels were less plausible, as should be evident from their
titles. For instance:

Danny Dunn and the Anti-Gravity Paint (1956)
Danny Dunn, Time Traveler (1963)
Danny Dunn and the Smallifying Machine (1969)
Danny Dunn, Invisible Boy (1974)
Post by Kevrob
Boy scout stuff,I know, but I wasn't a scout.
Nor was I, though I read and retained the Boy Scout Handbook. I
didn't attempt to join because I knew atheists weren't welcome in the
Boy Scouts when I was a teenager. They allow gays in now, but they
*still* don't allow atheists.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Philip Chee
2015-07-22 06:13:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Kevrob
Boy scout stuff,I know, but I wasn't a scout.
Nor was I, though I read and retained the Boy Scout Handbook. I
didn't attempt to join because I knew atheists weren't welcome in the
Boy Scouts when I was a teenager. They allow gays in now, but they
*still* don't allow atheists.
The world wide scouting movement doesn't (as far as I know) doesn't have
these restrictions (They have also dropped the "Boy" from the movements
name[1]) For example the Australian organization has several versions of
the Scout oath that can be used including one that doesn't mention
$DEITY at all. Can the U.S. version be dis-enfranchised and given to
some one else?

[1] And the "Girl" from the Guides[2]. Is the US the last holdout on the
Boy/Girl name?

[2] Outside of the US, girls are preferring to join the Scouts rather
than the Guides[3].

[3] Main reasons cited [1] More opportunity to meet boys [2] Boys [3] Boys.

[4] Did I mention boys?

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Kevrob
2015-07-22 10:51:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Kevrob
Boy scout stuff,I know, but I wasn't a scout.
Nor was I, though I read and retained the Boy Scout Handbook. I
didn't attempt to join because I knew atheists weren't welcome in the
Boy Scouts when I was a teenager. They allow gays in now, but they
*still* don't allow atheists.
The world wide scouting movement doesn't (as far as I know) doesn't have
these restrictions (They have also dropped the "Boy" from the movements
name[1]) For example the Australian organization has several versions of
the Scout oath that can be used including one that doesn't mention
$DEITY at all. Can the U.S. version be dis-enfranchised and given to
some one else?
[1] And the "Girl" from the Guides[2]. Is the US the last holdout on the
Boy/Girl name?
[2] Outside of the US, girls are preferring to join the Scouts rather
than the Guides[3].
[3] Main reasons cited [1] More opportunity to meet boys [2] Boys [3] Boys.
[4] Did I mention boys?
Phil
The Scouting programs for adolescents in the US, Exploring and Venturing,
are both co-ed. Explorers started enrolling girls in the 1970s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploring_%28Learning_for_Life%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturing_%28Boy_Scouts_of_America%29

I would recommend that the Pastafarians and Church of the Sub-Genius
design "Adventures of Faith" modules for local scout groups. Scouting
claims accept all theist sects.

A uniform badge or patch featuring Great Cthulhu would look snappy,
especially on a Sea Scouts uniform.

Kevin R
Keith F. Lynch
2015-07-23 02:42:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
The world wide scouting movement doesn't (as far as I know) doesn't
have these restrictions (They have also dropped the "Boy" from the
movements name[1]) For example the Australian organization has
several versions of the Scout oath that can be used including one
that doesn't mention $DEITY at all. Can the U.S. version be
dis-enfranchised and given to some one else?
By whom? As far as I know, BSA is an independent organization, not a
subsidiary of a hypothetical BSUN.
Post by Philip Chee
[1] And the "Girl" from the Guides[2]. Is the US the last holdout
on the Boy/Girl name?
[2] Outside of the US, girls are preferring to join the Scouts
rather than the Guides[3].
As far as I know, "Girl Guides" is just the old name for "Girl Scouts,"
at least in the US. They've been called "Girl Scouts" for as long as I
can remember.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Philip Chee
2015-07-23 06:14:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
As far as I know, "Girl Guides" is just the old name for "Girl Scouts,"
at least in the US. They've been called "Girl Scouts" for as long as I
can remember.
In Wikipedia "Girl Scouts" redirects to "Girl Guides"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl_Guides

[[In some countries, the girls preferred to call themselves ‘Girl Scouts’]]

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
p***@gmail.com
2015-07-20 14:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by p***@gmail.com
We have our own series; Tom Swift, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew spring
to mind. I'm sure there are others, but I wasnt' in the US at the
right age to become aware of them.
Rick Brant was my favorite.
Peter was the right age for those series? He must be much older than
I thought. Nancy Drew appeared in 1930, the Hardy Boys in 1927, and
Tom Swift in 1910.
I'm roughly the same age as Keith. All three series where being actively
published in the 60's and 70's, when I was the 'right age'.

pt
T Guy
2015-07-20 16:58:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by p***@gmail.com
We have our own series; Tom Swift, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew spring
to mind. I'm sure there are others, but I wasnt' in the US at the
right age to become aware of them.
Rick Brant was my favorite.
Peter was the right age for those series? He must be much older than
I thought. Nancy Drew appeared in 1930, the Hardy Boys in 1927, and
Tom Swift in 1910.
I'm roughly the same age as Keith. All three series where being actively
published in the 60's and 70's, when I was the 'right age'.
I had heard of the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew somehow by the 1980s, but never seen any books until my eyes passed over some Nancy Drew ones earlier this decade.

I did, however, briefly read a mass of Alfred Hitchcock presents the Three Investigators in the first half of the nineteen-seventies. I recognised one as swiping the plot of 'The Red-Headed League,' as also borrowed by Agatha Christie for one of the shorts in Poirot Investigates.

This may have been the first one I read, The Mystery of the Vanishing Treasure, with green-garbed elves on the cover and a character called Agatha Agawam.
p***@gmail.com
2015-07-20 17:47:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by T Guy
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by p***@gmail.com
We have our own series; Tom Swift, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew spring
to mind. I'm sure there are others, but I wasnt' in the US at the
right age to become aware of them.
Rick Brant was my favorite.
Peter was the right age for those series? He must be much older than
I thought. Nancy Drew appeared in 1930, the Hardy Boys in 1927, and
Tom Swift in 1910.
I'm roughly the same age as Keith. All three series where being actively
published in the 60's and 70's, when I was the 'right age'.
I had heard of the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew somehow by the 1980s, but never seen any books until my eyes passed over some Nancy Drew ones earlier this decade.
I did, however, briefly read a mass of Alfred Hitchcock presents the Three Investigators in the first half of the nineteen-seventies. I recognised one as swiping the plot of 'The Red-Headed League,' as also borrowed by Agatha Christie for one of the shorts in Poirot Investigates.
This may have been the first one I read, The Mystery of the Vanishing Treasure, with green-garbed elves on the cover and a character called Agatha Agawam.
Agawam is a town in Massachusetts, named after an Indian tribe.

BTW: I should have clarified: When I was at the right age it was Tom Swift *Jr*
who was being published. That not the TS of "Tom Swift and his Motor Cycle", but
the TS of "Tom Swift and His Polar-Ray Dynasphere".

pt
Sandra Bond
2015-07-20 11:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by T Guy
The one of the likely lads would be Terry Collyer - Bob was a QS as
far as I can work out.
Went back and checked and I'd misremembered. Both Likely Lads end up in
the company of Nigel Molesworth, who is also accompanied by officers
called Jennings and Darbishire.
Two more names very, very few Americans have ever heard of. The 'school
story'
Post by p***@gmail.com
doesn't really exist here; too few people go to boarding schools. The 'Harry
Potter' series is the only example most people here have seen.
There's a lot of other YA series which didn't travel well - 'Famous Five', for
example. Arthur Ransome did a little better, as did The Railway Children.
Narnia too, but that doesn't feel like quite the same genre.
Most of it, however, did not travel well in time - they now feel like period
pieces.
We have our own series; Tom Swift, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew spring to mind. I'm
sure there are others, but I wasnt' in the US at the right age to become aware
of them.
pt
We did have College (university) stories - Frank Merriwell at Yale.
I knew the Rover Boys because they were parodied in a Warner Brothers cartoon.
Tom Brown's Schooldays was probably the pure drop, with the Hollywood
version a bit diluted. There was a Masterpiece Theatre series
in the 70s or early 80s, which was probably BBC, but maybe from the
Lew Grade or LTW vaults.
Surely Archie Andrews and his entire universe fits into this category --
or don't comics count?

S&ra
--
"He wouldn't recognise nuance if it came up
to him and brushed gently against his leg"

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ***@netfront.net ---
Philip Chee
2015-07-20 12:07:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sandra Bond
Surely Archie Andrews and his entire universe fits into this category
-- or don't comics count?
Didn't they kill off Archie recently? Or married him off to Veronica?
Anyway I think they did a reboot recently this year.
Post by Sandra Bond
We did have College (university) stories - Frank Merriwell at Yale. I
knew the Rover Boys because they were parodied in a Warner Brothers
cartoon.
Doesn't Sweet Valley High count?

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Paul Dormer
2015-07-20 15:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sandra Bond
Surely Archie Andrews and his entire universe fits into this
category -- or don't comics count?
Archie Andrews still means to me the ventriloquist's dummy from the
fifties:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brough
Kevrob
2015-07-20 16:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Sandra Bond
Surely Archie Andrews and his entire universe fits into this
category -- or don't comics count?
Archie Andrews still means to me the ventriloquist's dummy from the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brough
Pictured @ http://whirligig-tv.co.uk/tv/children/other/archieandrews.htm

Hmmmm. 9 years after Leftpondian Archie, who looked like this:

http://www.comics.org/issue/2693/cover/4/
(1st cover appearance)
(1st appearance was PEP 22, Dec 10941 cover date)

Both sported red hair. Coincidence?

Kevin R
p***@gmail.com
2015-07-20 17:43:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Sandra Bond
Surely Archie Andrews and his entire universe fits into this
category -- or don't comics count?
Archie Andrews still means to me the ventriloquist's dummy from the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brough
http://www.comics.org/issue/2693/cover/4/
(1st cover appearance)
(1st appearance was PEP 22, Dec 10941 cover date)
Both sported red hair. Coincidence?
I think both may be based on the Andy Hardy character created by
Mickey Roony in the 30s and 40s. He starred in the role in 16 popular
films, in 3 of which he played opposite Judy Garland.

(note: The puppet was British, the comic character American)

pt

PS On a related note:
"When Archie is too progressive for you, that's how science identifies you
as an earlier species."
http://www.cracked.com/blog/how-archies-gay-friend-proved-internet-can-do-good/
Kevrob
2015-07-20 19:04:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Sandra Bond
Surely Archie Andrews and his entire universe fits into this
category -- or don't comics count?
Archie Andrews still means to me the ventriloquist's dummy from the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brough
http://www.comics.org/issue/2693/cover/4/
(1st cover appearance)
(1st appearance was PEP 22, Dec 10941 cover date)
Both sported red hair. Coincidence?
I think both may be based on the Andy Hardy character created by
Mickey Roony in the 30s and 40s. He starred in the role in 16 popular
films, in 3 of which he played opposite Judy Garland.
(note: The puppet was British, the comic character American)
pt
"When Archie is too progressive for you, that's how science identifies you
as an earlier species."
http://www.cracked.com/blog/how-archies-gay-friend-proved-internet-can-do-good/
Even earlier, was the newspaper strip, HAROLD TEEN

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Teen which started May 4, 1919.

Then there was Henry Aldrich, of radio's THE ALDRICH FAMILY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Aldrich_Family

Ruthlessly parodied by the Firesign Theatre as "Porgie Tirebiter."

The Aldriches were on radio in 1939, 2 years after the first HARDY movies.
They were from a 1938 Clifford Clifford Goldsmith play.

Aurania Rouverol had the Hardys in her 1928 play, "Skidding."

The success of the Hardy films, and the Aldrich show undoubtedly
spawned Archie as an imitator. Originally a back up in a super hero
anthology, he basically took over the company when the union suiters
lost popularity when WWII ended. He didn't make the cover for a year
after his first appearance. By mid-1944 he was the headliner.

Kevin R
p***@gmail.com
2015-07-20 19:59:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Sandra Bond
Surely Archie Andrews and his entire universe fits into this
category -- or don't comics count?
Archie Andrews still means to me the ventriloquist's dummy from the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brough
http://www.comics.org/issue/2693/cover/4/
(1st cover appearance)
(1st appearance was PEP 22, Dec 10941 cover date)
Both sported red hair. Coincidence?
I think both may be based on the Andy Hardy character created by
Mickey Roony in the 30s and 40s. He starred in the role in 16 popular
films, in 3 of which he played opposite Judy Garland.
(note: The puppet was British, the comic character American)
pt
"When Archie is too progressive for you, that's how science identifies you
as an earlier species."
http://www.cracked.com/blog/how-archies-gay-friend-proved-internet-can-do-good/
Even earlier, was the newspaper strip, HAROLD TEEN
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Teen which started May 4, 1919.
That's interesting. The words 'teen' and 'teenager' hardly existed before
1940, and this is the earliest usage I've seen where it is clearly used
to refer to a young person. Its usage seems to imply that it was an existing
word.

'Teenagers' as a recognizable demographic, are mostly a post-WW2 phenomenon.

pt
Paul Dormer
2015-07-20 18:10:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
(1st appearance was PEP 22, Dec 10941 cover date)
That's a long time in the future.
Kevrob
2015-07-20 18:51:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Kevrob
(1st appearance was PEP 22, Dec 10941 cover date)
That's a long time in the future.
A neat trick, since PEP's last issue was dated MAR 1987!

Maybe that's a stardate, or something. :)

Kevin R
T Guy
2015-07-20 17:01:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Sandra Bond
Surely Archie Andrews and his entire universe fits into this
category -- or don't comics count?
Archie Andrews still means to me the ventriloquist's dummy from the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brough
What about Dennis the Menace, Sgt Rock and the Iron Man?
Kevrob
2015-07-20 20:22:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by T Guy
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Sandra Bond
Surely Archie Andrews and his entire universe fits into this
category -- or don't comics count?
Archie Andrews still means to me the ventriloquist's dummy from the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brough
What about Dennis the Menace, Sgt Rock and the Iron Man?
The two Dennises (Dennixes?) were nearly simultaneous publications.

UK: THE BEANO on March 7, 1951 in the edition cover dated March 17, 1951

US: Debuted as a syndicated newspaper strip March 12, 1951, in 16 newspapers.

So, you may have been able to read about the British agent a week ahead of
the US one.

DC Comics' Sgt Rock (the name a take off on Sgt York), was in OUR ARMY
AT WAR as early as 1959. The British Rock appeared 10 years later, in
SMASH.

Hugh Hazard and His Iron Man, Bozo The Robot, started in the US SMASH
COMICS cover dated August 1939.

The Canadian superhero, arguably the Dominion's first, was in
BETTER COMICS in 1941.

That parvenu Tony Stark doesn't show up in Marvel's
TALES OF SUSPENSE until 1963.

The Ted Hughes novel is from 1968.

Robert E Howard's boxing story is from 1930.

...and so on.

Kevin R

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bozo_the_Iron_Man

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man_(Canadian_comics)
Kevrob
2015-07-20 20:26:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by T Guy
What about Dennis the Menace, Sgt Rock and the Iron Man?
The two Dennises (Dennixes?) were nearly simultaneous publications.
UK: THE BEANO on March 7, 1951 in the edition cover dated March 17, 1951
US: Debuted as a syndicated newspaper strip March 12, 1951, in 16 newspapers.
So, you may have been able to read about the British agent a week ahead of
the US one.
That was supposed to come out:

"You may have been able to have rad about the British Menace a week
earlier, if your newsagent got it on the scheduled release date."

Kevin R
Paul Dormer
2015-07-21 09:34:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
The two Dennises (Dennixes?) were nearly simultaneous publications.
UK: THE BEANO on March 7, 1951 in the edition cover dated March 17, 1951
US: Debuted as a syndicated newspaper strip March 12, 1951, in 16 newspapers.
So, you may have been able to read about the British agent a week ahead of
the US one.
Think you have a typo there. The Beano is and was a weekly publication
so the issue dated 17th March would probably have appeared within a
couple of days of that date, not as early as the 7th.

And "British agent"? Dennis the Menace is an unruly schoolboy always up
to no good. Usually ending with application of his father's slipper on
his backside. (Although I assume corporal punishment is played down
these days.)
T Guy
2015-07-21 12:42:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by T Guy
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Sandra Bond
Surely Archie Andrews and his entire universe fits into this
category -- or don't comics count?
Archie Andrews still means to me the ventriloquist's dummy from the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brough
What about Dennis the Menace, Sgt Rock and the Iron Man?
The two Dennises (Dennixes?) were nearly simultaneous publications.
Dennes?

Dennices?
Post by Kevrob
UK: THE BEANO on March 7, 1951 in the edition cover dated March 17, 1951
US: Debuted as a syndicated newspaper strip March 12, 1951, in 16 newspapers.
So, you may have been able to read about the British agent a week ahead of
the US one.
DC Comics' Sgt Rock (the name a take off on Sgt York), was in OUR ARMY
AT WAR as early as 1959. The British Rock appeared 10 years later, in
SMASH.
I had not realised that there was such a long gap - I'd thought that the Brit was longer-lasting (or earlier-debuting, if you want to be more accurate).

The first appearance of the Kanigher creation was a gradual process, and I was interested to see from Wikipedia that there was also some wobbling in the debut of the British one.
Post by Kevrob
Hugh Hazard and His Iron Man, Bozo The Robot, started in the US SMASH
COMICS cover dated August 1939.
The Canadian superhero, arguably the Dominion's first, was in
BETTER COMICS in 1941.
That parvenu Tony Stark doesn't show up in Marvel's
TALES OF SUSPENSE until 1963.
The Ted Hughes novel is from 1968.
Robert E Howard's boxing story is from 1930.
...and so on.
And you haven't even mentioned the British comic strip 'The Iron Man,' which might have appeared in an Eagle Annual in the late 'sixties or early 'seventies (I am under the impression that this was not the first appearance of the character).
Kevrob
2015-07-21 15:39:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by T Guy
Post by Kevrob
Post by T Guy
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Sandra Bond
Surely Archie Andrews and his entire universe fits into this
category -- or don't comics count?
Archie Andrews still means to me the ventriloquist's dummy from the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brough
What about Dennis the Menace, Sgt Rock and the Iron Man?
The two Dennises (Dennixes?) were nearly simultaneous publications.
Dennes?
Dennices?
Post by Kevrob
UK: THE BEANO on March 7, 1951 in the edition cover dated March 17, 1951
US: Debuted as a syndicated newspaper strip March 12, 1951, in 16 newspapers.
So, you may have been able to read about the British agent a week ahead of
the US one.
DC Comics' Sgt Rock (the name a take off on Sgt York), was in OUR ARMY
AT WAR as early as 1959. The British Rock appeared 10 years later, in
SMASH.
I had not realised that there was such a long gap - I'd thought that the Brit was longer-lasting (or earlier-debuting, if you want to be more accurate).
The first appearance of the Kanigher creation was a gradual process, and I was interested to see from Wikipedia that there was also some wobbling in the debut of the British one.
OUR ARMY AT WAR morphed into SGT ROCK. Last OOAW was #301, Feb., 1977
Mar. #302 was the first issue under the new title. The last of that run was
#422, June 1988. He has appeared in limited series and specials since,
the last in 2009, AFAICT.
Post by T Guy
Post by Kevrob
Hugh Hazard and His Iron Man, Bozo The Robot, started in the US SMASH
COMICS cover dated August 1939.
The Canadian superhero, arguably the Dominion's first, was in
BETTER COMICS in 1941.
That parvenu Tony Stark doesn't show up in Marvel's
TALES OF SUSPENSE until 1963.
The Ted Hughes novel is from 1968.
Robert E Howard's boxing story is from 1930.
...and so on.
And you haven't even mentioned the British comic strip 'The Iron Man,' which might have appeared in an Eagle Annual in the late 'sixties or early 'seventies (I am under the impression that this was not the first appearance of the character).
My research shows "The Iron Man" debuting in #24 of BOYS' WORLD,
6th July 1963, acc to:

http://www.comicsvalue.com/Boys-World-no2432-1963-Odhams-British-Comics-John-Burns-Iron-Man-The-Beatles/400589876022.html

This title is listed @ comics.org, but without data.

Folded into EAGLE in 1964, acc to:

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/i/ironman2.htm

Marvel's version debuted Mar 1963, which would have gone on sale
in December of 1962.

A 1942 Australian publication called "Star Pocket Comics" had
an Iron Man in its first issue.

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/i/ironmanoz.htm

http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/4972396

Kevin R
T Guy
2015-07-22 12:08:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by T Guy
Post by Kevrob
Post by T Guy
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Sandra Bond
Surely Archie Andrews and his entire universe fits into this
category -- or don't comics count?
Archie Andrews still means to me the ventriloquist's dummy from the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brough
What about Dennis the Menace, Sgt Rock and the Iron Man?
The two Dennises (Dennixes?) were nearly simultaneous publications.
Dennes?
Dennices?
Post by Kevrob
UK: THE BEANO on March 7, 1951 in the edition cover dated March 17, 1951
US: Debuted as a syndicated newspaper strip March 12, 1951, in 16 newspapers.
So, you may have been able to read about the British agent a week ahead of
the US one.
DC Comics' Sgt Rock (the name a take off on Sgt York), was in OUR ARMY
AT WAR as early as 1959. The British Rock appeared 10 years later, in
SMASH.
I had not realised that there was such a long gap - I'd thought that the Brit was longer-lasting (or earlier-debuting, if you want to be more accurate).
The first appearance of the Kanigher creation was a gradual process, and I was interested to see from Wikipedia that there was also some wobbling in the debut of the British one.
OUR ARMY AT WAR morphed into SGT ROCK. Last OOAW was #301, Feb., 1977
Mar. #302 was the first issue under the new title. The last of that run was
#422, June 1988. He has appeared in limited series and specials since,
the last in 2009, AFAICT.
You do not dare to approach the Controversy over his first appearance, I note.
Post by Kevrob
Post by T Guy
Post by Kevrob
That parvenu Tony Stark doesn't show up in Marvel's
TALES OF SUSPENSE until 1963.
The Ted Hughes novel is from 1968.
Robert E Howard's boxing story is from 1930.
...and so on.
And you haven't even mentioned the British comic strip 'The Iron Man,' which might have appeared in an Eagle Annual in the late 'sixties or early 'seventies (I am under the impression that this was not the first appearance of the character).
My research shows "The Iron Man" debuting in #24 of BOYS' WORLD,
http://www.comicsvalue.com/Boys-World-no2432-1963-Odhams-British-Comics-John-Burns-Iron-Man-The-Beatles/400589876022.html
http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/i/ironman2.htm
Marvel's version debuted Mar 1963, which would have gone on sale
in December of 1962.
Thanks for the info'. I was unable to find the Boys' World character online anywhere.
Kevrob
2015-07-22 15:31:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by T Guy
Post by Kevrob
Post by T Guy
Post by Kevrob
Post by T Guy
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Sandra Bond
Surely Archie Andrews and his entire universe fits into this
category -- or don't comics count?
Archie Andrews still means to me the ventriloquist's dummy from the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brough
What about Dennis the Menace, Sgt Rock and the Iron Man?
The two Dennises (Dennixes?) were nearly simultaneous publications.
Dennes?
Dennices?
Post by Kevrob
UK: THE BEANO on March 7, 1951 in the edition cover dated March 17, 1951
US: Debuted as a syndicated newspaper strip March 12, 1951, in 16 newspapers.
So, you may have been able to read about the British agent a week ahead of
the US one.
DC Comics' Sgt Rock (the name a take off on Sgt York), was in OUR ARMY
AT WAR as early as 1959. The British Rock appeared 10 years later, in
SMASH.
I had not realised that there was such a long gap - I'd thought that the Brit was longer-lasting (or earlier-debuting, if you want to be more accurate).
The first appearance of the Kanigher creation was a gradual process, and I was interested to see from Wikipedia that there was also some wobbling in the debut of the British one.
OUR ARMY AT WAR morphed into SGT ROCK. Last OOAW was #301, Feb., 1977
Mar. #302 was the first issue under the new title. The last of that run was
#422, June 1988. He has appeared in limited series and specials since,
the last in 2009, AFAICT.
You do not dare to approach the Controversy over his first appearance, I note.
The only Controversy seems to be which 1959 dated story counts as the US
Sgt Rock's first appearance. Even the latest candidate beats the British
squaddie by a decade.

"The Rock" - prototype for "Sgt Rock" on the cover of GI COMBAT #68, Jan
1959 cover date (released a few months earlier, as was the custom.)

http://www.comics.org/issue/14810/cover/4/
Post by T Guy
Post by Kevrob
Post by T Guy
Post by Kevrob
That parvenu Tony Stark doesn't show up in Marvel's
TALES OF SUSPENSE until 1963.
The Ted Hughes novel is from 1968.
Robert E Howard's boxing story is from 1930.
...and so on.
And you haven't even mentioned the British comic strip 'The Iron Man,' which might have appeared in an Eagle Annual in the late 'sixties or early 'seventies (I am under the impression that this was not the first appearance of the character).
My research shows "The Iron Man" debuting in #24 of BOYS' WORLD,
http://www.comicsvalue.com/Boys-World-no2432-1963-Odhams-British-Comics-John-Burns-Iron-Man-The-Beatles/400589876022.html
http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/i/ironman2.htm
Marvel's version debuted Mar 1963, which would have gone on sale
in December of 1962.
Thanks for the info'. I was unable to find the Boys' World character online anywhere.
You are welcome. I knew about EAGLE, where DAN DARE appeared,
but didn't know about this IRON MAN or BOYS' WORLD at all
before searching.

US-style comics, published monthly, twice quarterly, bi-monthly, or even
annually, with newsprint interiors and glossy covers, were designed as ephemera.
Only fannish devotion kept the old issues out of the furnace, war-time
paper drive, or post-war landfill. How much more ephemeral, then, were
the British weeklies, without the glossy covers? It doesn't surprise
me that not every issue is represented somewhere on line.

Kevin R
Kerr Mudd-John
2015-07-21 10:15:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Sandra Bond
Surely Archie Andrews and his entire universe fits into this
category -- or don't comics count?
Archie Andrews still means to me the ventriloquist's dummy from the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Brough
Please let's not have anyone mention Muffin the Mule. Oops.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug
Paul Dormer
2015-07-21 10:46:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
Please let's not have anyone mention Muffin the Mule. Oops.
Joking aside, I well remember Muffin the Mule in the fifties and as we
didn't get a TV set till 1957, judging by the Wikipedia article this must
have been the versions on ITV after Annette Mills death in 1955 (unless
the BBC were repeating the old shows).

Sometime in the sixties, the puppeteers who operated Muffin did a show in
my home town. I must have been in my mid-teens by then but I did go and
see them.
Philip Chee
2015-07-20 12:19:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
We have our own series; Tom Swift, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew spring to mind. I'm
sure there are others, but I wasnt' in the US at the right age to become aware
of them.
I thought the Tom Holt books were superior. And I didn't have to be in
the U.S. to know about all these books. I mean I was at the opposite end
of the world at that time. Hmm. Can an oblate spheroid of a world have
an opposite end?

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Scott Dorsey
2015-07-20 15:51:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Post by p***@gmail.com
We have our own series; Tom Swift, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew spring to mind. I'm
sure there are others, but I wasnt' in the US at the right age to become aware
of them.
I thought the Tom Holt books were superior. And I didn't have to be in
the U.S. to know about all these books. I mean I was at the opposite end
of the world at that time. Hmm. Can an oblate spheroid of a world have
an opposite end?
Me too, and we got the Australian version of the Hardy Boys books. They were
red, whereas the original US editions had brown covers and the 1960s updates
in the US had colored covers with pictures. The Australian versions were
related to the original US editions and although they were severely rewritten
they were at least connected to the original edition in the way the 1960s
updates were not.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Keith F. Lynch
2015-07-21 02:19:53 UTC
Permalink
I mean I was at the opposite end of the world at that time. Hmm.
Can an oblate spheroid of a world have an opposite end?
Yes. It's called the antipodes. Your antipodes is in or near
Ecuador, not the US or Britain.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Kerr Mudd-John
2015-07-21 10:10:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
I mean I was at the opposite end of the world at that time. Hmm.
Can an oblate spheroid of a world have an opposite end?
Yes. It's called the antipodes. Your antipodes is in or near
Ecuador, not the US or Britain.
I see Kerguelen Island is on the US/Can border.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipodes

and The old one of Australia fitting neatly into the Atlantic between
Spain and the Caribbean

There isn't a lot of overlap apart from East China and Argentina/Chile

So folks, don't go digging straight down you'll only drown.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug
Keith F. Lynch
2015-07-22 00:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
I see Kerguelen Island is on the US/Can border.
ObSF: Named for Rissa? :-)
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipodes
and The old one of Australia fitting neatly into the Atlantic
between Spain and the Caribbean
There isn't a lot of overlap apart from East China and
Argentina/Chile
So folks, don't go digging straight down you'll only drown.
Indeed. Also, note that parts of the Pacific are opposite other parts
of the Pacific.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Alan Woodford
2015-07-22 05:32:17 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:47:29 +0000 (UTC), "Keith F. Lynch"
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
I see Kerguelen Island is on the US/Can border.
ObSF: Named for Rissa? :-)
Post by Kerr Mudd-John
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipodes
and The old one of Australia fitting neatly into the Atlantic
between Spain and the Caribbean
There isn't a lot of overlap apart from East China and
Argentina/Chile
So folks, don't go digging straight down you'll only drown.
Indeed. Also, note that parts of the Pacific are opposite other parts
of the Pacific.
Are you sure about that?

I've just had a play with Google Earth, and it looks to me Like the
Pacific runs from about 120 degrees east, (an island chain south of
Taiwan) to 70 degrees west (off the coast of Chile), which is only 170
degrees of longitude.

Both easternmost and westernmost points are near their respective
tropics though, so it's close, but no cigar :-)

Alan Woodford

The Greying Lensman
Philip Chee
2015-07-21 05:25:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Post by p***@gmail.com
We have our own series; Tom Swift, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew spring to mind. I'm
sure there are others, but I wasnt' in the US at the right age to become aware
of them.
I thought the Tom Holt books were superior. And I didn't have to be in
the U.S. to know about all these books. I mean I was at the opposite end
of the world at that time. Hmm. Can an oblate spheroid of a world have
an opposite end?
Oops, Ken Holt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Holt

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
p***@gmail.com
2015-07-21 14:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Post by Philip Chee
Post by p***@gmail.com
We have our own series; Tom Swift, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew spring to mind. I'm
sure there are others, but I wasnt' in the US at the right age to become aware
of them.
I thought the Tom Holt books were superior. And I didn't have to be in
the U.S. to know about all these books. I mean I was at the opposite end
of the world at that time. Hmm. Can an oblate spheroid of a world have
an opposite end?
Oops, Ken Holt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Holt
Its a very understandable error - Tom Holt writes really excellent humorous
fantasy, but is not a YA author.

Most are based in existing mileu: "Who's afraid of Beowulf" for example,
and a series set at G&S's magic company in "The Sorcerer".

pt
Kevrob
2015-07-21 15:41:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Philip Chee
Post by Philip Chee
Post by p***@gmail.com
We have our own series; Tom Swift, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew spring to mind. I'm
sure there are others, but I wasnt' in the US at the right age to become aware
of them.
I thought the Tom Holt books were superior. And I didn't have to be in
the U.S. to know about all these books. I mean I was at the opposite end
of the world at that time. Hmm. Can an oblate spheroid of a world have
an opposite end?
Oops, Ken Holt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Holt
Its a very understandable error - Tom Holt writes really excellent humorous
fantasy, but is not a YA author.
Most are based in existing mileu: "Who's afraid of Beowulf" for example,
and a series set at G&S's magic company in "The Sorcerer".
pt
"Tom Holt" brought to mind the western film star, Tim Holt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Holt

Kevin R
Kevrob
2015-07-15 16:04:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by p***@gmail.com
After not thinking about St. Custard's for at least 40
years, just a month ago I listened to a BBC Radio
drama based on the books - much fun.
Was that the one with Imelda Staunton, of all people, as Nigel? It was
broadcast over Christmas and I must admit I gave up on it. Not a patch
on the books.
But I did see Staunton in Gypsy in the West End recently. Magnificent
performance. (Not sure about the musical.)
Is the name of Sue Townsend's teenage protagonist, Adrain Mole,
a hat tip to Molesworth? I know when I checked the wiki link,
the character seemed familiar, but I never read the books.
But, then, thousands of titles I've never read have passed through
my hands in 25+ years of bookselling, so, who knows, I may
have seen a copy or two.

Kevin R
Paul Dormer
2015-07-15 17:49:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Is the name of Sue Townsend's teenage protagonist, Adrain Mole,
a hat tip to Molesworth?
Amusing typo. :-)

No idea, but I've just been reading Ann Leckie's Ancillary Sword and
there's a part in there where somebody sends a message quoting some
poetry they'd written, knowing that the narrator would recognise it as
juvenilia and realise there was a trap. The next line is something about,
"The poet was Basnaaied Elming aged nine and three quarters," and I was
immediately thinking of the Ann Leckie/Sue Townsend crossover fic.
Tim Illingworth
2015-07-16 00:27:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Kevrob
Is the name of Sue Townsend's teenage protagonist, Adrain Mole,
a hat tip to Molesworth?
Amusing typo. :-)
No idea, but I've just been reading Ann Leckie's Ancillary Sword and
there's a part in there where somebody sends a message quoting some
poetry they'd written, knowing that the narrator would recognise it as
juvenilia and realise there was a trap. The next line is something about,
"The poet was Basnaaied Elming aged nine and three quarters," and I was
immediately thinking of the Ann Leckie/Sue Townsend crossover fic.
What: you read the finalists before voting? How quaint...

Tim
Keith F. Lynch
2015-07-15 02:42:43 UTC
Permalink
Well, that test was 44 years ago, ...
They haven't added any new elements since then, except at the far end.
I stopped when I stumbled. Magnesium, not Manganese, right?
Right.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Keith F. Lynch
2015-07-14 02:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_song
I prefer the Three Stooges version:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swinging_the_Alphabet

As an aside, why are all Wikipedia URLs suddenly https whether I want
them to be or not? And why must it warn me *three* *times* before
letting me see any Wikipedia page? Sheesh!
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Kevrob
2015-07-14 03:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Kevrob
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_song
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swinging_the_Alphabet
As an aside, why are all Wikipedia URLs suddenly https whether I want
them to be or not? And why must it warn me *three* *times* before
letting me see any Wikipedia page? Sheesh!
I do a lot of search with browsers in SSL. If you shorten https to http,
does it resolve to https anyway?

Kevin R
Keith F. Lynch
2015-07-15 02:41:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
I do a lot of search with browsers in SSL. If you shorten https to
http, does it resolve to https anyway?
Yes, which is annoying. If I meant https, I would have said https.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
Cryptoengineer
2015-07-14 04:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Kevrob
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_song
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swinging_the_Alphabet
As an aside, why are all Wikipedia URLs suddenly https whether I want
them to be or not? And why must it warn me *three* *times* before
letting me see any Wikipedia page? Sheesh!
There's been a popular move to make https use the default, to prevent
Bad People from being able to trivially eavesdrop on your interests.
In general, I applaude this move.

You're probably getting warnings because your browser is out of date.
There's a related move to deprecate some older ciphersuites, now
known to be insecure.

pt
Cryptoengineer
2015-07-14 04:15:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Kevrob
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_song
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swinging_the_Alphabet
As an aside, why are all Wikipedia URLs suddenly https whether I want
them to be or not? And why must it warn me *three* *times* before
letting me see any Wikipedia page? Sheesh!
There's been a popular move to make https use the default, to prevent
Bad People from being able to trivially eavesdrop on your interests.
In general, I applaude this move.
You're probably getting warnings because your browser is out of date.
There's a related move to deprecate some older ciphersuites, now
known to be insecure.
Just realized it was Keith I was responding to. He wont see that
response, since he blocks me.

It's moot anyway, he uses Lynx, which was last updated in Feb, 2014.

He'll have to wait until a progream fixes it for him.

pt
Philip Chee
2015-07-14 11:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cryptoengineer
He'll have to wait until a progream fixes it for him.
That's an impressive program, er progream?

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Kevrob
2015-07-14 13:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Post by Cryptoengineer
He'll have to wait until a progream fixes it for him.
That's an impressive program, er progream?
Do progreams load via a backdoor? :)

Kevin R
p***@gmail.com
2015-07-14 15:13:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Philip Chee
Post by Cryptoengineer
He'll have to wait until a progream fixes it for him.
That's an impressive program, er progream?
Typo for programmer.
ObSF: "Oh, The Embarrassment!"

pt
Philip Chee
2015-07-14 11:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
As an aside, why are all Wikipedia URLs suddenly https whether I
There is a push by many major websites to go https everywhere.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
want them to be or not? And why must it warn me *three* *times*
before letting me see any Wikipedia page? Sheesh!
That's your browser complaining, not Wikipedia.

It doesn't happen to me. But FYI browser makers and web sites are
proactively de-supporting ciphers that are known to be weak or have
known vulnerabilities.

Phil
--
Philip Chee <***@aleytys.pc.my>, <***@gmail.com>
http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
Paul Dormer
2015-07-14 09:38:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
In the US, the "alphabet song" is the same tune as is used for
"Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star."
Says here, the English got it from the French.
I well recommend the Dohnanyi variations on that theme for piano and
orchestra.

SPOILER for a piece of music written over 100 years ago.

It has a huge late romantic opening for orchestra without the soloist,
surging to a tumultuous climax which stops with a bang. The orchestra is
silent. Then the soloist plays a one-finger version of the theme.

Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus.
Gary McGath
2015-07-14 23:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dormer
Post by Kevrob
In the US, the "alphabet song" is the same tune as is used for
"Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star."
Says here, the English got it from the French.
I well recommend the Dohnanyi variations on that theme for piano and
orchestra.
SPOILER for a piece of music written over 100 years ago.
It has a huge late romantic opening for orchestra without the soloist,
surging to a tumultuous climax which stops with a bang. The orchestra is
silent. Then the soloist plays a one-finger version of the theme.
I love the Naxos Music Library (paid subscription). I was able to find
and start playing "Variations on a Nusery Song" in seconds. It's at
least a two-finger version, since it's played in octaves, and there are
bits in it which any pianist would be hard-pressed to play with just a
finger of each hand.

Mozart's variations on the same tune are a favorite of mine. He referred
to it by the French title, "Ah, vous dirai-je, maman."
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
Tomorrow's Songs Today: The History of Filk http://www.mcgath.com/tst
Kerr Mudd-John
2015-07-13 20:27:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evelyn Leeper
THE MT VOID
Mt. Holz Science Fiction Society
07/10/15 -- Vol. 34, No. 2, Whole Number 1866
[big snip]
Post by Evelyn Leeper
3. Towcester in England is "toaster", just as Worcester is
"wooster" and Bicester is "biss-ter".
Also Gloucester pron. "Glosta" and Fosters pron. "yuck".
Post by Evelyn Leeper
4. Athens, Georgia, is "ath-ens" with the ath as in bath; but
Athens, Illinois, is "ay-thins", with the ay as in bay.
bath (short a) or barth? (RP)
Post by Evelyn Leeper
5. Cairo, Egypt, is "kye-roe", but Cairo, Illinois, is "kay-ro" as
in Karo Syrup.
I assumed it was derived from Chi-Rho. BICBW

AAW DYK that the locals call their country not Eggwipe, but Misr. (red
land)
of course you did, we've all got access to wikipedia these days.
Post by Evelyn Leeper
===================================================================
TOPIC: Irrational Numbers (letter of comment by Charles S. Harris)
In response to Mark's comments about irrational numbers in the
[Mark said,] "Now isn't that interesting? The factor we cancelled
from the numerator and denominator is 142857. Notice anything
familiar about that number?"
Yes. It's my PIN. oops.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug
Jay E. Morris
2015-07-13 23:51:51 UTC
Permalink
On 7/13/2015 7:56 AM, Evelyn Leeper wrote:
...
Post by Evelyn Leeper
<http://tinyurl.com/void-20-towns> lists "20 Towns Named for Other
Towns But Pronounced Differently", of which the best known is
probably Lima, Ohio. [-ecl]
I'm disappointed that Melbourne, FL, wasn't on the list.
Kevrob
2015-07-14 00:34:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay E. Morris
...
Post by Evelyn Leeper
<http://tinyurl.com/void-20-towns> lists "20 Towns Named for Other
Towns But Pronounced Differently", of which the best known is
probably Lima, Ohio. [-ecl]
I'm disappointed that Melbourne, FL, wasn't on the list.
Missing from the Berlin/New Berlin list is New Berlin, WI. Locals say
noo BURR lin. Many swallow the last vowel.

Since the English actually say DAR bee for Derby, then the one in Connecticut
(former home of Charlton Comics) belongs on the list. "Durr bee" drops
from local tongues.

I like the old name, Paugasset, better. One of the local volunteer fire
companies still uses it.

Then there's Pekin, IL. Peek'n. Not exactly Beijing.

Kevin R
Cryptoengineer
2015-07-14 04:06:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jay E. Morris
...
Post by Evelyn Leeper
<http://tinyurl.com/void-20-towns> lists "20 Towns Named for Other
Towns But Pronounced Differently", of which the best known is
probably Lima, Ohio. [-ecl]
I'm disappointed that Melbourne, FL, wasn't on the list.
Missing from the Berlin/New Berlin list is New Berlin, WI. Locals say
noo BURR lin. Many swallow the last vowel.
Same for Berlin, MA, which I drive through sometimes. Do *not* speed
through town, unless you like tickets.
Post by Kevrob
Since the English actually say DAR bee for Derby, then the one in
Connecticut (former home of Charlton Comics) belongs on the list.
"Durr bee" drops from local tongues.
I like the old name, Paugasset, better. One of the local volunteer
fire companies still uses it.
Then there's Pekin, IL. Peek'n. Not exactly Beijing.
Kevin R
Lowell Gilbert
2015-07-14 14:38:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Kevrob
Missing from the Berlin/New Berlin list is New Berlin, WI. Locals say
noo BURR lin. Many swallow the last vowel.
Same for Berlin, MA, which I drive through sometimes. Do *not* speed
through town, unless you like tickets.
Weird. I have a weekly gaming session in Berlin, and I have seen a
police vehicle exactly once, ever. And as I passed by, the officer was
pulling a first aid kit out of the back of the cruiser.
p***@gmail.com
2015-07-14 15:18:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lowell Gilbert
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Kevrob
Missing from the Berlin/New Berlin list is New Berlin, WI. Locals say
noo BURR lin. Many swallow the last vowel.
Same for Berlin, MA, which I drive through sometimes. Do *not* speed
through town, unless you like tickets.
Weird. I have a weekly gaming session in Berlin, and I have seen a
police vehicle exactly once, ever. And as I passed by, the officer was
pulling a first aid kit out of the back of the cruiser.
You're right. I was thinking of Bolton. Berlin's name is pronounced as
I said, though.

pt
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