Keyboards again

[Dan Espen]

Recently I complained about a keyboard I was interested in but it had no
apparent scroll lock LED.

So, I got the model wrong.

The keyboard in question is the Logitech G513.

The pictures at Amazon show 2 indicator lights, A and G. I found out
the G indicates "game mode".

So, back when I was looking and just recently I asked the question again
does this keyboard have a scroll lock LED? Both times I got this answer:

We sent your question about Logitech G513 RGB Backlit... to the Amazon
community and unfortunately none of them have yet responded.

Questions remain unanswered when we do not have enough customers to
ask or when the question is particularly difficult to answer. At this
point your question is unlikely to receive an answer, but it will
remain posted on Amazon and we will notify you if anyone responds.

Not doing well on my quest to update my keyboard which is currently an

XARMOR-U9BL Backlit Keyboard Illuminated

unfortunately out of business or I'd get new LEDs and fix it myself.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen
Recently I complained about a keyboard I was interested in but it had no
apparent scroll lock LED.
So, I got the model wrong.
The keyboard in question is the Logitech G513.
The pictures at Amazon show 2 indicator lights, A and G. I found out
the G indicates "game mode".
So, back when I was looking and just recently I asked the question again
We sent your question about Logitech G513 RGB Backlit... to the Amazon
community and unfortunately none of them have yet responded.
Questions remain unanswered when we do not have enough customers to
ask or when the question is particularly difficult to answer. At this
point your question is unlikely to receive an answer, but it will
remain posted on Amazon and we will notify you if anyone responds.

Try asking Logitech directly. Amazon questions go to Amazon users.

<https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360024148954>

I don't have my 915 ready to hand right now--when I get it hooked up
I'll see what it does--it's a similar design to the 513 only with more
bells and whistles.

Post by Dan Espen
Not doing well on my quest to update my keyboard which is currently an
XARMOR-U9BL Backlit Keyboard Illuminated
unfortunately out of business or I'd get new LEDs and fix it myself.

I've never taken that particular model of keyboard apart so can't help
you there except that I've seen posts to the effect that it's really
easy to replace the LEDs--nobody says what they replaced them _with_.
You might try getting a few in the right physical size range from
Digikey and try them until you've got one that's close.

[Quadibloc]

Post by J. Clarke
I've never taken that particular model of keyboard apart so can't help
you there except that I've seen posts to the effect that it's really
easy to replace the LEDs--nobody says what they replaced them _with_.

That would help to cause caps lock or game mode to light up in a different color,
but adding lights for scroll lock - or Num Lock, for that matter - would require
modifying the circuitry of the keyboard in ways that might not even be possible.

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
I've never taken that particular model of keyboard apart so can't help
you there except that I've seen posts to the effect that it's really
easy to replace the LEDs--nobody says what they replaced them _with_.

That would help to cause caps lock or game mode to light up in a different color,
but adding lights for scroll lock - or Num Lock, for that matter - would require
modifying the circuitry of the keyboard in ways that might not even be possible.

Quadi, read the whole thread. His existing keyboard has some burned
out LEDs.

Post by Quadibloc
John Savard

[Dan Espen]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen
Recently I complained about a keyboard I was interested in but it had no
apparent scroll lock LED.
So, I got the model wrong.
The keyboard in question is the Logitech G513.
The pictures at Amazon show 2 indicator lights, A and G. I found out
the G indicates "game mode".
So, back when I was looking and just recently I asked the question again
We sent your question about Logitech G513 RGB Backlit... to the Amazon
community and unfortunately none of them have yet responded.
Questions remain unanswered when we do not have enough customers to
ask or when the question is particularly difficult to answer. At this
point your question is unlikely to receive an answer, but it will
remain posted on Amazon and we will notify you if anyone responds.

Try asking Logitech directly. Amazon questions go to Amazon users.
<https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360024148954>
I don't have my 915 ready to hand right now--when I get it hooked up
I'll see what it does--it's a similar design to the 513 only with more
bells and whistles.

The 915 and 513 are very different:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DHNX192?pf_rd_r=GZSR5KF1XCDVX5224SY0&pf_rd_p=edaba0ee-c2fe-4124-9f5d-b31d6b1bfbee

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen
Not doing well on my quest to update my keyboard which is currently an
XARMOR-U9BL Backlit Keyboard Illuminated
unfortunately out of business or I'd get new LEDs and fix it myself.

I've never taken that particular model of keyboard apart so can't help
you there except that I've seen posts to the effect that it's really
easy to replace the LEDs--nobody says what they replaced them _with_.
You might try getting a few in the right physical size range from
Digikey and try them until you've got one that's close.

While they were in business I had them ship me some LEDs and I replaced
them myself. I'm not much of an electronics guy so I don't know how to
identify them and source them myself. Of course I need them to match
the voltage, brightness and color.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen
Recently I complained about a keyboard I was interested in but it had no
apparent scroll lock LED.
So, I got the model wrong.
The keyboard in question is the Logitech G513.
The pictures at Amazon show 2 indicator lights, A and G. I found out
the G indicates "game mode".
So, back when I was looking and just recently I asked the question again
We sent your question about Logitech G513 RGB Backlit... to the Amazon
community and unfortunately none of them have yet responded.
Questions remain unanswered when we do not have enough customers to
ask or when the question is particularly difficult to answer. At this
point your question is unlikely to receive an answer, but it will
remain posted on Amazon and we will notify you if anyone responds.

Try asking Logitech directly. Amazon questions go to Amazon users.
<https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360024148954>
I don't have my 915 ready to hand right now--when I get it hooked up
I'll see what it does--it's a similar design to the 513 only with more
bells and whistles.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DHNX192?pf_rd_r=GZSR5KF1XCDVX5224SY0&pf_rd_p=edaba0ee-c2fe-4124-9f5d-b31d6b1bfbee

You're thinking of the 910. The 915 is in the same general family as
the 513. It has an extra row of switches across the top to deal with
the various wireless options, and has the G keys and dedicated media
keys, so it looks more complex. But no explicit scroll-lock--the only
LEDs that aren't on a keycap or switch are caps lock and battery, and
one that illuminates the letter G. Same concept, aluminum billet with
keys raised above.

Post by Dan Espen

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen
Not doing well on my quest to update my keyboard which is currently an
XARMOR-U9BL Backlit Keyboard Illuminated
unfortunately out of business or I'd get new LEDs and fix it myself.

I've never taken that particular model of keyboard apart so can't help
you there except that I've seen posts to the effect that it's really
easy to replace the LEDs--nobody says what they replaced them _with_.
You might try getting a few in the right physical size range from
Digikey and try them until you've got one that's close.

While they were in business I had them ship me some LEDs and I replaced
them myself. I'm not much of an electronics guy so I don't know how to
identify them and source them myself. Of course I need them to match
the voltage, brightness and color.

A little bit of digging shows that several people have successfully
replaced LEDs on keyboards of various brands with Cherry switches
using 3mm diameter LEDs typically purchased off of ebay. You can find
3mm LED assortments on Amazon for 10 bucks or so that have 300 in
assorted colors.

In the 2011/2012 timeframe there were several fairly hardcore people
upgrading the U9BL keyboards (one guy tore it down completely,
customized every keyswitch, replaced every LED, while another
redesigned the control logic to get the lighting effects he wanted).
All of them seem to have discovered girls or whatever since and
vanished.

[Dan Espen]

Well, my new Logitech G815 arrived today. Took me a half hour to get
the Linux software installed, mainly because the author was set up to
use some kind of Arch installer I wasn't set up for. I never did get
that to work. Instead I found a Fedora based repository and installed
the software in under a minute from his repository.

Then I took a look at the new keyboard and unlike the pictures I saw
before this one has the 2 lights labeled CapsLock and NumLock.

Indeed there is no scroll lock LED and attempts to toggle it do nothing.

However, this command:

g810-led -k logo ff0000

Turns the Big letter G red.

and

g810-led -k logo 000000

turns it off.

Out of the box, the keyboard puts on a light show with keys changing
color constantly.

This command sets all the keys to 1 color:

g810-led -a 0077ff

Keyboard feel is good. Looks great too. My biggest problem right now is
that the G5 key is on the lower left and I keep hitting it instead of
Ctrl. The default setting of G5 is F5 which is compose an email in
Emacs. It has a unique key code so I'll fix that very soon.

Now all my keys are lit properly and I'm happy.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen
Well, my new Logitech G815 arrived today. Took me a half hour to get
the Linux software installed, mainly because the author was set up to
use some kind of Arch installer I wasn't set up for. I never did get
that to work. Instead I found a Fedora based repository and installed
the software in under a minute from his repository.
Then I took a look at the new keyboard and unlike the pictures I saw
before this one has the 2 lights labeled CapsLock and NumLock.
Indeed there is no scroll lock LED and attempts to toggle it do nothing.
g810-led -k logo ff0000
Turns the Big letter G red.
and
g810-led -k logo 000000
turns it off.
Out of the box, the keyboard puts on a light show with keys changing
color constantly.
g810-led -a 0077ff
Keyboard feel is good. Looks great too. My biggest problem right now is
that the G5 key is on the lower left and I keep hitting it instead of
Ctrl. The default setting of G5 is F5 which is compose an email in
Emacs. It has a unique key code so I'll fix that very soon.
Now all my keys are lit properly and I'm happy.

Very good. Never occurred to me to use the G light.

[Dennis Boone]

Post by Dan Espen
While they were in business I had them ship me some LEDs and I replaced
them myself. I'm not much of an electronics guy so I don't know how to
identify them and source them myself. Of course I need them to match
the voltage, brightness and color.

If this is the >1st time you're replacing LEDs in this keyboard, it
suggests they blew the design pretty badly.

Note that LEDs are current devices -- what they really care about,
limits wise, is forward (milli-)amps. The circuit has an operating
voltage, and there's a resistor in there that effectively sets the
operating current. It ought to be possible to measure the voltage
(it'll presumably be 12V, 5V or 3.3V, ish) with a meter, and find the
resistor by visually examining the board -- follow traces from the LED.
E=IR. LED size/shape is visual inspection.

The actually hard part is brightness. They're cheap; maybe order a few
each of various brightnesses, test by touching the wires to the pads,
solder in the one you like and save the rest of that type for future
repairs, then give the rest to someone's hippie girlfriend for
jewelry-making.

De

[Dan Espen]

Post by Dennis Boone

Post by Dan Espen
While they were in business I had them ship me some LEDs and I replaced
them myself. I'm not much of an electronics guy so I don't know how to
identify them and source them myself. Of course I need them to match
the voltage, brightness and color.

If this is the >1st time you're replacing LEDs in this keyboard, it
suggests they blew the design pretty badly.
Note that LEDs are current devices -- what they really care about,
limits wise, is forward (milli-)amps. The circuit has an operating
voltage, and there's a resistor in there that effectively sets the
operating current. It ought to be possible to measure the voltage
(it'll presumably be 12V, 5V or 3.3V, ish) with a meter, and find the
resistor by visually examining the board -- follow traces from the LED.
E=IR. LED size/shape is visual inspection.
The actually hard part is brightness. They're cheap; maybe order a few
each of various brightnesses, test by touching the wires to the pads,
solder in the one you like and save the rest of that type for future
repairs, then give the rest to someone's hippie girlfriend for
jewelry-making.

Hippie girlfriend. I love it.

Actually that describes my deceased wife pretty well.

I thought the brightness and color would be issues
but they are that common LED blue.

Anyway, I agree not the most reliable piece of equipment.
The LEDs started to go pretty quickly but there are only 4 out now
I replaced 2 or 3. So I guess what remain are pretty good.
It's also missing a leg so it's time to go.


I've been watching Amazon and wonder of wonders they have
19 new Logitech G815s in stock at $199 per.
I think I'm going to order one and deal with the scroll lock issue
one way or another.

[Charlie Gibbs]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Dennis Boone
The actually hard part is brightness. They're cheap; maybe order a few
each of various brightnesses, test by touching the wires to the pads,
solder in the one you like and save the rest of that type for future
repairs, then give the rest to someone's hippie girlfriend for
jewelry-making.

Hippie girlfriend. I love it.

:-)

Post by Dan Espen
Actually that describes my deceased wife pretty well.
I thought the brightness and color would be issues
but they are that common LED blue.

Does anyone remember when there was no such thing as LED blue,
because nobody had figured out how to make them? Then they
were available, but horribly expensive - your typical 25-cent
red or green LED cost $6 in blue.

And they're now a horrible mandatory fad. Maybe it's just me -
my eyes never could focus on intense blue light - but I hate
the way they're now used everywhere an indicator is needed,
and in even more places where they're not. I once ran a
sound board in a darkened theatre, and I had to put three
layers of masking tape over the board's bright blue pilot
light so I could see anything else at all. Grrr...

[Peter Flass]

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Dennis Boone
The actually hard part is brightness. They're cheap; maybe order a few
each of various brightnesses, test by touching the wires to the pads,
solder in the one you like and save the rest of that type for future
repairs, then give the rest to someone's hippie girlfriend for
jewelry-making.

Hippie girlfriend. I love it.

:-)

Post by Dan Espen
Actually that describes my deceased wife pretty well.
I thought the brightness and color would be issues
but they are that common LED blue.

Does anyone remember when there was no such thing as LED blue,
because nobody had figured out how to make them? Then they
were available, but horribly expensive - your typical 25-cent
red or green LED cost $6 in blue.
And they're now a horrible mandatory fad. Maybe it's just me -
my eyes never could focus on intense blue light - but I hate
the way they're now used everywhere an indicator is needed,
and in even more places where they're not. I once ran a
sound board in a darkened theatre, and I had to put three
layers of masking tape over the board's bright blue pilot
light so I could see anything else at all. Grrr...

I had to do this with our slave cable box in the bedroom. All it has is,one
bright blue light.

[Dan Espen]

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Dennis Boone
The actually hard part is brightness. They're cheap; maybe order a few
each of various brightnesses, test by touching the wires to the pads,
solder in the one you like and save the rest of that type for future
repairs, then give the rest to someone's hippie girlfriend for
jewelry-making.

Hippie girlfriend. I love it.

:-)

Post by Dan Espen
Actually that describes my deceased wife pretty well.
I thought the brightness and color would be issues
but they are that common LED blue.

Does anyone remember when there was no such thing as LED blue,
because nobody had figured out how to make them? Then they
were available, but horribly expensive - your typical 25-cent
red or green LED cost $6 in blue.

Yep. Blue took a long time.

Post by Charlie Gibbs
And they're now a horrible mandatory fad. Maybe it's just me -
my eyes never could focus on intense blue light - but I hate
the way they're now used everywhere an indicator is needed,
and in even more places where they're not. I once ran a
sound board in a darkened theatre, and I had to put three
layers of masking tape over the board's bright blue pilot
light so I could see anything else at all. Grrr...

Nope.

For some reason the basement in the house I grew up in had a blue
incandescent light in a ceiling fixture.

I still love blue.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 08 Sep 2020 17:52:15 -0400

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Charlie Gibbs
Does anyone remember when there was no such thing as LED blue,
because nobody had figured out how to make them? Then they
were available, but horribly expensive - your typical 25-cent
red or green LED cost $6 in blue.

Yep. Blue took a long time.

It won the folks who did it a Nobel, all the "white" LEDs appearing
everywhere from torches to house lighting to cars are really blue LEDs
shining through a phosphor that absorbs some of the blue and radiates lower
frequencies.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Charlie Gibbs
And they're now a horrible mandatory fad. Maybe it's just me -
my eyes never could focus on intense blue light - but I hate
the way they're now used everywhere an indicator is needed,
and in even more places where they're not. I once ran a
sound board in a darkened theatre, and I had to put three
layers of masking tape over the board's bright blue pilot
light so I could see anything else at all. Grrr...

Nope.
For some reason the basement in the house I grew up in had a blue
incandescent light in a ceiling fixture.
I still love blue.

When I was doing theatrical lighting, I was taught that
blue light was to be avoided, as a significant fraction
of the older population had difficulties seeing
the stage. Made night scenes more challenging to light.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Wed, 09 Sep 2020 17:42:29 GMT

Post by Scott Lurndal
When I was doing theatrical lighting, I was taught that
blue light was to be avoided, as a significant fraction
of the older population had difficulties seeing
the stage. Made night scenes more challenging to light.

Steel grey to the rescue ?

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 09 Sep 2020 17:42:29 GMT

Post by Scott Lurndal
When I was doing theatrical lighting, I was taught that
blue light was to be avoided, as a significant fraction
of the older population had difficulties seeing
the stage. Made night scenes more challenging to light.

Steel grey to the rescue ?

Usually a pair of colors, one warm and one cool, for each
area of the stage. Flesh Pink and Bastard Amber were
common for indoor scenes. I'd offset a darker blue (cool)
with a warm color gel for night scenes, preferably on different
dimmmers if I had enough (my first panel only had 18 circuits,
in six groups of three mechanically mastered handles; with
electrically mastered handles atop each column and two
electrically mastered grandmaster handles, one for each
side of the panel).

If not enough handles, I'd use lower-power lamps for the warm
color to get the right mix.

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Wed, 09 Sep 2020 19:49:47 GMT

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 09 Sep 2020 17:42:29 GMT

Post by Scott Lurndal
When I was doing theatrical lighting, I was taught that
blue light was to be avoided, as a significant fraction
of the older population had difficulties seeing
the stage. Made night scenes more challenging to light.

Steel grey to the rescue ?

Usually a pair of colors, one warm and one cool, for each
area of the stage. Flesh Pink and Bastard Amber were
common for indoor scenes. I'd offset a darker blue (cool)
with a warm color gel for night scenes, preferably on different
dimmmers if I had enough (my first panel only had 18 circuits,

Only 18 circuits <sigh> I cut my teeth on a board with four dual
circuit rheostats (yes they sparked a bit as you moved them). Fun times
swapping plugs behind my back to use more lights.

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 09 Sep 2020 19:49:47 GMT

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 09 Sep 2020 17:42:29 GMT

Post by Scott Lurndal
When I was doing theatrical lighting, I was taught that
blue light was to be avoided, as a significant fraction
of the older population had difficulties seeing
the stage. Made night scenes more challenging to light.

Steel grey to the rescue ?

Usually a pair of colors, one warm and one cool, for each
area of the stage. Flesh Pink and Bastard Amber were
common for indoor scenes. I'd offset a darker blue (cool)
with a warm color gel for night scenes, preferably on different
dimmmers if I had enough (my first panel only had 18 circuits,

Only 18 circuits <sigh> I cut my teeth on a board with four dual
circuit rheostats (yes they sparked a bit as you moved them). Fun times
swapping plugs behind my back to use more lights.

We had a mechanical (slider-based) cross-connect panel behind the old
deadfront autotransformer setup rather than a plug-based system.. Rather
clever system.

The dimmer panel was taller than I was (and I'm an inch taller than
Steph Curry).

I wish I'd taken pictures - the panel is long gone, replaced with modern
electronics.

Show start:

Lower the grandmaster handles (controlling house lites), flip the transfer
switch (200amp) and raise one of the grandmaster handles (now controlling stage lights).

Setup the next scene on the other half of the panel then lower one grandmaster
while raising the other. Rinse and repeat.

[Freddy1X]

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Dennis Boone
The actually hard part is brightness. They're cheap; maybe order a few
each of various brightnesses, test by touching the wires to the pads,
solder in the one you like and save the rest of that type for future
repairs, then give the rest to someone's hippie girlfriend for
jewelry-making.

Hippie girlfriend. I love it.

:-)

Post by Dan Espen
Actually that describes my deceased wife pretty well.
I thought the brightness and color would be issues
but they are that common LED blue.

Does anyone remember when there was no such thing as LED blue,
because nobody had figured out how to make them? Then they
were available, but horribly expensive - your typical 25-cent
red or green LED cost $6 in blue.

( cuts )

Blue LEDs? I can remember when red LEDs was a new and upcoming thing.
Kids! Harumph!

Freddy,
I didn't claim to be old, just saying.

[gareth evans]

Post by Freddy1X
Blue LEDs? I can remember when red LEDs was a new and upcoming thing.
Kids! Harumph!

1972, my final year at Essex Uni, I was spending £3 per week to cover
all my living expenses, food, drink, stationery, etc.

For our final year project, one guy had special dispensation from
the Uni powers-that-be to include a red LED in his project, costing
£5 ! ! ! !

[Quadibloc]

Post by Freddy1X

Post by Charlie Gibbs
Does anyone remember when there was no such thing as LED blue,
because nobody had figured out how to make them? Then they
were available, but horribly expensive - your typical 25-cent
red or green LED cost $6 in blue.

( cuts )
Blue LEDs? I can remember when red LEDs was a new and upcoming thing.
Kids! Harumph!

Indeed. Of course I remember the days when all we had were CD-ROMs and DVDs
because the shortest-wavelength LEDs available were green ones, which weren't
enough of an improvement on the red LEDs used in DVDs (CDs used infra-red) to
bother.

And I remember when not only there weren't any LEDs of any color at all, but
even transistors were so expensive electronics usually used vacuum tubes!!

And when people used slide rules because they didn't have pocket calculators.

But I'm not old enough to remember when people used the abacus instead because
logarithms weren't invented yet. That was before my time.

John Savard

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by Quadibloc
Indeed. Of course I remember the days when all we had were CD-ROMs and DVDs
because the shortest-wavelength LEDs available were green ones, which weren't
enough of an improvement on the red LEDs used in DVDs (CDs used infra-red) to
bother.

In late 1986 I sat with a friend at his home, who worked for an
electronic form programming elevators. He had these small plastic
drawers, each filled with different electronics. One was full of red,
another with green and I think a third with yellow LEDs. I asked if there
weren't any blue for additive color mixing. He said "no" and that they'll
probably never will exist. He tried me to explain why but that was way
over my head. And wrong anyway, as we know today.

Was a good time. I wore a dead 6502 around my neck after drilling a hole
in. We sat there, having beer, programming 6502 assembly and he soldered
stuff together.

[Dave Garland]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Freddy1X

Post by Charlie Gibbs
Does anyone remember when there was no such thing as LED blue,
because nobody had figured out how to make them? Then they
were available, but horribly expensive - your typical 25-cent
red or green LED cost $6 in blue.

( cuts )
Blue LEDs? I can remember when red LEDs was a new and upcoming thing.
Kids! Harumph!

Indeed. Of course I remember the days when all we had were CD-ROMs and DVDs
because the shortest-wavelength LEDs available were green ones, which weren't
enough of an improvement on the red LEDs used in DVDs (CDs used infra-red) to
bother.
And I remember when not only there weren't any LEDs of any color at all, but
even transistors were so expensive electronics usually used vacuum tubes!!
And when people used slide rules because they didn't have pocket calculators.
But I'm not old enough to remember when people used the abacus instead because
logarithms weren't invented yet. That was before my time.

You're old enough, just the wrong culture. (You don't need logs for
add/subtract.) Asia used them for a long time. When I was in college I
learned the soroban (Japanese abacus, I had a couple of slide rules
but wanted better than 3 digit precision for add/subtract). It was
pretty straightforward, but required more practice than I was willing
to do to become proficient. I remember reports of a competition where
a 10-key adding machine operator couldn't keep up with a proficient
soroban operator. I suppose that's still true, if there are any
proficient abacus operators left these days.

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by Dave Garland
I remember reports of a competition where
a 10-key adding machine operator couldn't keep up with a proficient
soroban operator. I suppose that's still true, if there are any
proficient abacus operators left these days.

It would be interesting to see how that would work in competition
with, let's say, a bar code scanner at a supermarket cash register.
These don't work perfectly either...

[maus]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dave Garland
I remember reports of a competition where
a 10-key adding machine operator couldn't keep up with a proficient
soroban operator. I suppose that's still true, if there are any
proficient abacus operators left these days.

It would be interesting to see how that would work in competition
with, let's say, a bar code scanner at a supermarket cash register.
These don't work perfectly either...

Bar code readers are fascinating devices. I had one, but it has
disappeared somewhere while I was in hospital, bar codes contain data
like recommended prices (different from what is on the supermarket
packet), and so on.

[Bob Eager]

Post by maus

I remember reports of a competition where a 10-key adding machine
operator couldn't keep up with a proficient soroban operator. I
suppose that's still true, if there are any proficient abacus
operators left these days.

It would be interesting to see how that would work in competition with,
let's say, a bar code scanner at a supermarket cash register.
These don't work perfectly either...

Bar code readers are fascinating devices. I had one, but it has
disappeared somewhere while I was in hospital, bar codes contain data
like recommended prices (different from what is on the supermarket
packet), and so on.

I used to set an assessment for students. They had to read a bar code in
real time, i.e. detect the transitions, work out a threshold for wide/
narrow based on averaging and the total transit time, reverse the scan if
necessary, and generate a correct result.

It was all interrupt driven and in 68000 assembler. Most managed it.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by maus
Bar code readers are fascinating devices. I had one, but it has
disappeared somewhere while I was in hospital, bar codes contain data
like recommended prices (different from what is on the supermarket
packet), and so on.

There are apps for smartphones. Instead of a database as back end it would
check the internet. That even works for some grocery store items. Next to
bar codes they also read QR code and others.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dave Garland
I remember reports of a competition where
a 10-key adding machine operator couldn't keep up with a proficient
soroban operator. I suppose that's still true, if there are any
proficient abacus operators left these days.

It would be interesting to see how that would work in competition
with, let's say, a bar code scanner at a supermarket cash register.
These don't work perfectly either...

Since you also appear to be from Germany, remember the 80s and early 90s
at ALDI? They were so "advanced". Before bar code was used cashiers in
other stores read the price from the label and typed it in. No way to
take track of how many items were still in stock. At ALDI the poor (and
bad paid) cashiers had to remember a three digit code for every item or
look it up from a table o a sheet of paper if they didn't. Type it in and
the register would show the price but also subtract one product. Must be
painful to learn up to 999 items with their code. And you could still
make a mistake and sell a bottle of pricey sparkling wine for 99 Pfennige
(a Pfennig was 1/100 of a Deutschmark).

As everybody else they changed to bar code scanners in the mid 90s.

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dave Garland
I remember reports of a competition where
a 10-key adding machine operator couldn't keep up with a proficient
soroban operator. I suppose that's still true, if there are any
proficient abacus operators left these days.

It would be interesting to see how that would work in competition
with, let's say, a bar code scanner at a supermarket cash register.
These don't work perfectly either...

Since you also appear to be from Germany, remember the 80s and early 90s
at ALDI?
They were so "advanced". Before bar code was used cashiers in
other stores read the price from the label and typed it in. No way to
take track of how many items were still in stock. At ALDI the poor (and
bad paid)

From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets
(whatever that means), but they have far fewer people who are
expected to do all jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

Post by Andreas Kohlbach
cashiers had to remember a three digit code for every item or
look it up from a table o a sheet of paper if they didn't. Type it in and
the register would show the price but also subtract one product. Must be
painful to learn up to 999 items with their code.

Remembering up to 999 (or 1000?) codes is certainly something that
not everybody could do well, so I suspect a certain qualificiation
was needed.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 07:05:44 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Thomas Koenig
From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets
(whatever that means), but they have far fewer people who are
expected to do all jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

That matches their job adverts and what I see in the shops, they
also advertise that they pay high (for supermarkets) and expect hard work in
return. I notice that a high proportion of the staff are first generation
immigrants - the group usually most willing to take that deal for the sake
of giving their children a good start in the society their parents have
chosen.

[Bob Eager]

From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets (whatever
that means), but they have far fewer people who are expected to do all
jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

My son is a deputy manager for Aldi, and they do pay better than other
supermarkets.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by Bob Eager

From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets (whatever
that means), but they have far fewer people who are expected to do all
jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

My son is a deputy manager for Aldi, and they do pay better than other
supermarkets.

My info was from the wife of a friend who knew a cashier at ALDI. But
this info that they are bad paid is from the 1980s and also second hand
(friend of wife of my friend). In the 1980s there were AFAIK no ALDI
stores in the UK. According to Wikipedia they expanded in the UK in the
1990s, while they opened stores in the US in the 1970s already.

[Bob Eager]

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by Bob Eager

From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets (whatever
that means), but they have far fewer people who are expected to do all
jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

My son is a deputy manager for Aldi, and they do pay better than other
supermarkets.

My info was from the wife of a friend who knew a cashier at ALDI. But
this info that they are bad paid is from the 1980s and also second hand
(friend of wife of my friend). In the 1980s there were AFAIK no ALDI
stores in the UK. According to Wikipedia they expanded in the UK in the
1990s, while they opened stores in the US in the 1970s already.

Yes, it may well be different in the UK.

After all, look at the differences in pay in restaurants. In the UK, they
are paid quite badly. In the US, they are paid very badly and expected to
make it up in tips.

[maus]

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by Bob Eager

From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets (whatever
that means), but they have far fewer people who are expected to do all
jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

My son is a deputy manager for Aldi, and they do pay better than other
supermarkets.

My info was from the wife of a friend who knew a cashier at ALDI. But
this info that they are bad paid is from the 1980s and also second hand
(friend of wife of my friend). In the 1980s there were AFAIK no ALDI
stores in the UK. According to Wikipedia they expanded in the UK in the
1990s, while they opened stores in the US in the 1970s already.

AFAIK, again, the store split somewhat recently, to Ald Nord and A.Sud.
after the brothers died. I was once told that the familly were
Sudetenlanders originally

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by maus

Post by Andreas Kohlbach
My info was from the wife of a friend who knew a cashier at ALDI. But
this info that they are bad paid is from the 1980s and also second hand
(friend of wife of my friend). In the 1980s there were AFAIK no ALDI
stores in the UK. According to Wikipedia they expanded in the UK in the
1990s, while they opened stores in the US in the 1970s already.

AFAIK, again, the store split somewhat recently, to Ald Nord and A.Sud.
after the brothers died. I was once told that the familly were
Sudetenlanders originally

They split 1960.

[maus]

Post by Bob Eager

From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets (whatever
that means), but they have far fewer people who are expected to do all
jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

My son is a deputy manager for Aldi, and they do pay better than other
supermarkets.

My daughter interviewed for Lidl (same difference, AFAIK) and they reputably
pay well, but work hard. In the stores, if comething needs doing, anyone handy
does it. Good idea, I think.

[gareth evans]

Post by maus

Post by Bob Eager

From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets (whatever
that means), but they have far fewer people who are expected to do all
jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

My son is a deputy manager for Aldi, and they do pay better than other
supermarkets.

My daughter interviewed for Lidl (same difference, AFAIK) and they reputably
pay well, but work hard. In the stores, if comething needs doing, anyone handy
does it. Good idea, I think.

In my local Lidl, if there are queues at the tills, even the
store manager will man another checkout.

In my local Sainsburys, if there are queues at the tills, the
supervisors just carry on doing important things such as
shuffling their pencils.

Lidl is much cheaper than Sainsburys and I only patronise
the latter if there are things that I cannot get from the former.

[Bob Eager]

Post by maus

Post by Bob Eager

From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets (whatever
that means), but they have far fewer people who are expected to do
all jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

My son is a deputy manager for Aldi, and they do pay better than other
supermarkets.

My daughter interviewed for Lidl (same difference, AFAIK) and they
reputably pay well, but work hard. In the stores, if comething needs
doing, anyone handy does it. Good idea, I think.

In my local Lidl, if there are queues at the tills, even the store
manager will man another checkout.

Same in Aldi. They always have a till further from the doors open, and
that person has the responsibility of calling someone 'off the list' if
queues get too long.

[Peter Flass]

Post by gareth evans

Post by maus

Post by Bob Eager

From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets (whatever
that means), but they have far fewer people who are expected to do all
jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

My son is a deputy manager for Aldi, and they do pay better than other
supermarkets.

My daughter interviewed for Lidl (same difference, AFAIK) and they reputably
pay well, but work hard. In the stores, if comething needs doing, anyone handy
does it. Good idea, I think.

In my local Lidl, if there are queues at the tills, even the
store manager will man another checkout.
In my local Sainsburys, if there are queues at the tills, the
supervisors just carry on doing important things such as
shuffling their pencils.

Nothing annoys me more than to have a big line waiting for one cashier
while one or two more employees are behind the counter doing whatever, that
they apparently can’t interrupt to serve customers. Some places will have
people jump in when necessary, and I always think better of them for it.

I know nothing about running a store, but it seems to me that waiting on
customers should have priority over other tasks, which can be done when
you’re not busy.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 18:49:14 -0700

Post by Peter Flass
I know nothing about running a store, but it seems to me that waiting on
customers should have priority over other tasks, which can be done when
you’re not busy.

If you are ever in a small shop in Germany expect a quite
different attitude - you can almost feel as though you (the customer) are
an unwanted interruption in the business of keeping the shop perfect.

[gareth evans]

Post by Peter Flass

Post by gareth evans

Post by maus

Post by Bob Eager

From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets (whatever
that means), but they have far fewer people who are expected to do all
jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

My son is a deputy manager for Aldi, and they do pay better than other
supermarkets.

My daughter interviewed for Lidl (same difference, AFAIK) and they reputably
pay well, but work hard. In the stores, if comething needs doing, anyone handy
does it. Good idea, I think.

In my local Lidl, if there are queues at the tills, even the
store manager will man another checkout.
In my local Sainsburys, if there are queues at the tills, the
supervisors just carry on doing important things such as
shuffling their pencils.

Nothing annoys me more than to have a big line waiting for one cashier
while one or two more employees are behind the counter doing whatever, that
they apparently can’t interrupt to serve customers. Some places will have
people jump in when necessary, and I always think better of them for it.
I know nothing about running a store, but it seems to me that waiting on
customers should have priority over other tasks, which can be done when
you’re not busy.

Many years ago (Pye TMC, Malmesbury) I helped behind the lunch time
club bar (in return for a couple of pints) and despite that we were
volunteer club members ourselves, the chap in charge ran it like a
business, and if there were people waiting to be served, we had to drop
everything else and serve them. Washing glasses and restocking the
shelves had to wait.

After I had moved on, the place was taken over by the Yanks (Lucent)
and the bar was shut down to stop there being alcohol on the premises.

[maus]

Post by Peter Flass

Post by gareth evans

Post by maus

Post by Bob Eager

From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets (whatever
that means), but they have far fewer people who are expected to do all
jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

My son is a deputy manager for Aldi, and they do pay better than other
supermarkets.

My daughter interviewed for Lidl (same difference, AFAIK) and they reputably
pay well, but work hard. In the stores, if comething needs doing, anyone handy
does it. Good idea, I think.

In my local Lidl, if there are queues at the tills, even the
store manager will man another checkout.
In my local Sainsburys, if there are queues at the tills, the
supervisors just carry on doing important things such as
shuffling their pencils.

Nothing annoys me more than to have a big line waiting for one cashier
while one or two more employees are behind the counter doing whatever, that
they apparently can’t interrupt to serve customers. Some places will have
people jump in when necessary, and I always think better of them for it.
I know nothing about running a store, but it seems to me that waiting on
customers should have priority over other tasks, which can be done when
you’re not busy.

=+ for Institutions, generally. Seeing senile patients wallowing in dirty
nappies while staff gossip is not nice.

[JimP]

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 18:49:14 -0700, Peter Flass

Post by Peter Flass

Post by gareth evans

Post by maus

Post by Bob Eager

From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets (whatever
that means), but they have far fewer people who are expected to do all
jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

My son is a deputy manager for Aldi, and they do pay better than other
supermarkets.

My daughter interviewed for Lidl (same difference, AFAIK) and they reputably
pay well, but work hard. In the stores, if comething needs doing, anyone handy
does it. Good idea, I think.

In my local Lidl, if there are queues at the tills, even the
store manager will man another checkout.
In my local Sainsburys, if there are queues at the tills, the
supervisors just carry on doing important things such as
shuffling their pencils.

Nothing annoys me more than to have a big line waiting for one cashier
while one or two more employees are behind the counter doing whatever, that
they apparently can’t interrupt to serve customers. Some places will have
people jump in when necessary, and I always think better of them for it.
I know nothing about running a store, but it seems to me that waiting on
customers should have priority over other tasks, which can be done when
you’re not busy.

The ones I see doing mostly nothing will suddenly act like they are
stocking bags or doing some inventory behind the checkout. But that
doesn't resemble the goofing off they were doing.

[Charlie Gibbs]

Post by Peter Flass
Nothing annoys me more than to have a big line waiting for one cashier
while one or two more employees are behind the counter doing whatever, that
they apparently can’t interrupt to serve customers. Some places will have
people jump in when necessary, and I always think better of them for it.
I know nothing about running a store, but it seems to me that waiting on
customers should have priority over other tasks, which can be done when
you’re not busy.

If two or more cashiers are available, one should be reserved for simple
transactions. What annoys me is being stuck behind someone who brings
a shopping cart into the express line, runs back into the aisles for
things he or she forgot, nit-picks every item, and argues over change.
It's enough to make me return my bananas and jar of peanut butter to the
shelves and walk out.

Which reminds me of my second peeve: people who don't return items
to the shelves but drop them in random locations around the store.
Especially if it's the last unit of something I'm looking for.

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by Charlie Gibbs
Which reminds me of my second peeve: people who don't return items
to the shelves but drop them in random locations around the store.
Especially if it's the last unit of something I'm looking for.

Bonus points if it's frozen or refrigerated items being left out in the
open.

Niklas

[JimP]

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Peter Flass
Nothing annoys me more than to have a big line waiting for one cashier
while one or two more employees are behind the counter doing whatever, that
they apparently can’t interrupt to serve customers. Some places will have
people jump in when necessary, and I always think better of them for it.
I know nothing about running a store, but it seems to me that waiting on
customers should have priority over other tasks, which can be done when
you’re not busy.

If two or more cashiers are available, one should be reserved for simple
transactions. What annoys me is being stuck behind someone who brings
a shopping cart into the express line, runs back into the aisles for
things he or she forgot, nit-picks every item, and argues over change.
It's enough to make me return my bananas and jar of peanut butter to the
shelves and walk out.
Which reminds me of my second peeve: people who don't return items
to the shelves but drop them in random locations around the store.
Especially if it's the last unit of something I'm looking for.

Or people who put frozen food in a non-frozen food area. They should
have to spend time doing something they don't like... preferably
putting things back where they belong.

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by JimP

Post by Charlie Gibbs
Which reminds me of my second peeve: people who don't return items
to the shelves but drop them in random locations around the store.
Especially if it's the last unit of something I'm looking for.

Or people who put frozen food in a non-frozen food area. They should
have to spend time doing something they don't like... preferably
putting things back where they belong.

You're too kind.

Niklas

[JimP]

Post by Niklas Karlsson

Post by JimP

Post by Charlie Gibbs
Which reminds me of my second peeve: people who don't return items
to the shelves but drop them in random locations around the store.
Especially if it's the last unit of something I'm looking for.

Or people who put frozen food in a non-frozen food area. They should
have to spend time doing something they don't like... preferably
putting things back where they belong.

You're too kind.
Niklas

Should I have saids lashes ?

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 13:57:58 -0500

Post by JimP
Or people who put frozen food in a non-frozen food area.

Stocks, supplied with mushy ex-frozen food.

[Questor]

Post by Peter Flass

Post by gareth evans

Post by maus

Post by Bob Eager

From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets (whatever
that means), but they have far fewer people who are expected to do all
jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

My son is a deputy manager for Aldi, and they do pay better than other
supermarkets.

My daughter interviewed for Lidl (same difference, AFAIK) and they reputably
pay well, but work hard. In the stores, if comething needs doing, anyone handy
does it. Good idea, I think.

In my local Lidl, if there are queues at the tills, even the
store manager will man another checkout.
In my local Sainsburys, if there are queues at the tills, the
supervisors just carry on doing important things such as
shuffling their pencils.

Nothing annoys me more than to have a big line waiting for one cashier
while one or two more employees are behind the counter doing whatever, that
they apparently can't interrupt to serve customers. Some places will have
people jump in when necessary, and I always think better of them for it.
I know nothing about running a store, but it seems to me that waiting on
customers should have priority over other tasks, which can be done when
you're not busy.

IOW, "I'm completely ignorant, but I'll spout off anyway"


Never mind compulsary military service -- I think every citizen should be
required to work for a few months as a retail clerk or in a similar service
capacity, preferably during a period that includes the holiday season.
Now THAT would be a good education for a lot of people.

You're right, you know nothing about running a store. There are many tasks that
employees must perform besides waiting on customers, and they are expected to
complete them during their shift, no excuses. One thing about working in a
retail environment: you are CONSTANTLY being interrupted. It can be difficult
to complete any mildly complicated task or even to remember where you left off
before getting pulled away to do something else. You have no idea what those
employees behind the counter are doing, what priority their management has
assigned to their tasks, whether one of them might be on their break, or showing
the other how to do something. It might even be a management decision to have
only X checkouts open, or a certain number of employees on the floor despite
waiting customers, because they have limited personnel and other things must be
done, so having customers endure a short wait is an acceptable trade-off.

You really want to learn something about how "the other half" lives? Sign up
for a holiday retail job at any of the big-name stores in your area. They've
already starting their seasonal hiring campaigns, so they're ready to accept
your application and their standards are quite relaxed. If you had that retail
experience, I think you'd be a lot more patient and understanding about the
employees, instead of thinking you should be the absolute center of attention
whenever you walk into a store.

[JimP]

Post by Questor

Post by Peter Flass

Post by gareth evans

Post by maus

Post by Bob Eager

From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets (whatever
that means), but they have far fewer people who are expected to do all
jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

My son is a deputy manager for Aldi, and they do pay better than other
supermarkets.

My daughter interviewed for Lidl (same difference, AFAIK) and they reputably
pay well, but work hard. In the stores, if comething needs doing, anyone handy
does it. Good idea, I think.

In my local Lidl, if there are queues at the tills, even the
store manager will man another checkout.
In my local Sainsburys, if there are queues at the tills, the
supervisors just carry on doing important things such as
shuffling their pencils.

Nothing annoys me more than to have a big line waiting for one cashier
while one or two more employees are behind the counter doing whatever, that
they apparently can't interrupt to serve customers. Some places will have
people jump in when necessary, and I always think better of them for it.
I know nothing about running a store, but it seems to me that waiting on
customers should have priority over other tasks, which can be done when
you're not busy.

IOW, "I'm completely ignorant, but I'll spout off anyway"
Never mind compulsary military service -- I think every citizen should be
required to work for a few months as a retail clerk or in a similar service
capacity, preferably during a period that includes the holiday season.
Now THAT would be a good education for a lot of people.

But I have worked behind the counter. The people I mentioned were
goofing off. They weren't doing other tasks. I've run a cash register
during a high school student lunch rush ( 100 plus students every 30
minutes for 2 hours) at a Burger Chef, been a part time janitor when
most of the places I cleaned would not get out of the way ( they were
just sitting there smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee ), repaired
computers being interrupted by people who wanted me to stop working on
that one, and fix their typically fictional problem with their
computer. They just wanted someone to pester.

I'm glad I'm retired and don't have to put up with that anymore.

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by Questor
You really want to learn something about how "the other half" lives? Sign up
for a holiday retail job at any of the big-name stores in your area. They've
already starting their seasonal hiring campaigns, so they're ready to accept
your application and their standards are quite relaxed. If you had that retail
experience, I think you'd be a lot more patient and understanding about the
employees, instead of thinking you should be the absolute center of attention
whenever you walk into a store.

Hear, hear!

Niklas

[maus]

Post by Questor
You really want to learn something about how "the other half" lives? Sign up
for a holiday retail job at any of the big-name stores in your area. They've
already starting their seasonal hiring campaigns, so they're ready to accept
your application and their standards are quite relaxed. If you had that retail
experience, I think you'd be a lot more patient and understanding about the
employees, instead of thinking you should be the absolute center of attention
whenever you walk into a store.
a
re cumpolsary militart service.
No Military anywhere wamts to enlist 'damaged' young people into their
Army. The history of such units in any Army is disastrous, from the units
That the German Army used in Byelorussia during the war, to the US units
that committed the massacre at MyLai. Films like 'the Dirty Dozen' are
Bull****

[JimP]

Post by Questor
You really want to learn something about how "the other half" lives? Sign up
for a holiday retail job at any of the big-name stores in your area. They've
already starting their seasonal hiring campaigns, so they're ready to accept
your application and their standards are quite relaxed. If you had that retail
experience, I think you'd be a lot more patient and understanding about the
employees, instead of thinking you should be the absolute center of attention
whenever you walk into a store.
a
re cumpolsary militart service.
No Military anywhere wamts to enlist 'damaged' young people into their
Army. The history of such units in any Army is disastrous, from the units
That the German Army used in Byelorussia during the war, to the US units
that committed the massacre at MyLai. Films like 'the Dirty Dozen' are
Bull****

During WW2 US criminals were given the choice of enlisting or going to
prison; however, before war's end all US military organizations
refused to take any more of them.

[Dan Espen]

Post by JimP

Post by Questor
You really want to learn something about how "the other half" lives? Sign up
for a holiday retail job at any of the big-name stores in your area. They've
already starting their seasonal hiring campaigns, so they're ready to accept
your application and their standards are quite relaxed. If you had that retail
experience, I think you'd be a lot more patient and understanding about the
employees, instead of thinking you should be the absolute center of attention
whenever you walk into a store.
a
re cumpolsary militart service.
No Military anywhere wamts to enlist 'damaged' young people into their
Army. The history of such units in any Army is disastrous, from the units
That the German Army used in Byelorussia during the war, to the US units
that committed the massacre at MyLai. Films like 'the Dirty Dozen' are
Bull****

During WW2 US criminals were given the choice of enlisting or going to
prison; however, before war's end all US military organizations
refused to take any more of them.

I had a friend that got in some trouble in NYC and the judge gave him
the choice of enlisting for Vietnam or going to jail.

He should have gone to jail, he was never the same. So in at least one
case they were still doing that kind of thing in the 60s-70s.

[JimP]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by JimP

Post by Questor
You really want to learn something about how "the other half" lives? Sign up
for a holiday retail job at any of the big-name stores in your area. They've
already starting their seasonal hiring campaigns, so they're ready to accept
your application and their standards are quite relaxed. If you had that retail
experience, I think you'd be a lot more patient and understanding about the
employees, instead of thinking you should be the absolute center of attention
whenever you walk into a store.
a
re cumpolsary militart service.
No Military anywhere wamts to enlist 'damaged' young people into their
Army. The history of such units in any Army is disastrous, from the units
That the German Army used in Byelorussia during the war, to the US units
that committed the massacre at MyLai. Films like 'the Dirty Dozen' are
Bull****

During WW2 US criminals were given the choice of enlisting or going to
prison; however, before war's end all US military organizations
refused to take any more of them.

I had a friend that got in some trouble in NYC and the judge gave him
the choice of enlisting for Vietnam or going to jail.
He should have gone to jail, he was never the same. So in at least one
case they were still doing that kind of thing in the 60s-70s.

I heard of it, but it may or may not have been as widespread as it was
before 1944. One high school buddy who did 4 tours in Viet Nam, and a
relative who was there several times, didn't mention it to me. Of
course, they may have felt it was something they didn't want to talk
about.

[maus]

Post by JimP
I heard of it, but it may or may not have been as widespread as it was
before 1944. One high school buddy who did 4 tours in Viet Nam, and a
relative who was there several times, didn't mention it to me. Of
course, they may have felt it was something they didn't want to talk
about.

During the US Civil war, people conscripted for North or South could
put a hired Irishman in their place, Morgan the Bankster did it and
laughed later about the 'Other' Morgan. People in Ireland were still
starving after the Famine, and would do anything to get to the US or
CSA.

(I was told that once by an elderly relative.)

[JimP]

Post by maus

Post by JimP
I heard of it, but it may or may not have been as widespread as it was
before 1944. One high school buddy who did 4 tours in Viet Nam, and a
relative who was there several times, didn't mention it to me. Of
course, they may have felt it was something they didn't want to talk
about.

During the US Civil war, people conscripted for North or South could
put a hired Irishman in their place, Morgan the Bankster did it and
laughed later about the 'Other' Morgan. People in Ireland were still
starving after the Famine, and would do anything to get to the US or
CSA.
(I was told that once by an elderly relative.)

And there was the Irish Brigade fielded by the Union.

[maus]

Post by JimP

Post by maus

Post by JimP
I heard of it, but it may or may not have been as widespread as it was
before 1944. One high school buddy who did 4 tours in Viet Nam, and a
relative who was there several times, didn't mention it to me. Of
course, they may have felt it was something they didn't want to talk
about.

During the US Civil war, people conscripted for North or South could
put a hired Irishman in their place, Morgan the Bankster did it and
laughed later about the 'Other' Morgan. People in Ireland were still
starving after the Famine, and would do anything to get to the US or
CSA.
(I was told that once by an elderly relative.)

And there was the Irish Brigade fielded by the Union.
and another serving with the Confederates.

[Peter Flass]

Post by JimP

Post by maus

Post by JimP
I heard of it, but it may or may not have been as widespread as it was
before 1944. One high school buddy who did 4 tours in Viet Nam, and a
relative who was there several times, didn't mention it to me. Of
course, they may have felt it was something they didn't want to talk
about.

During the US Civil war, people conscripted for North or South could
put a hired Irishman in their place, Morgan the Bankster did it and
laughed later about the 'Other' Morgan. People in Ireland were still
starving after the Famine, and would do anything to get to the US or
CSA.
(I was told that once by an elderly relative.)

And there was the Irish Brigade fielded by the Union.
and another serving with the Confederates.

Irish had been fighting in Ireland for centuries, they must have been
getting pretty good at it. Actually, considering the discrimination against
the Irish at the time, the military must have looked like a pretty good
deal.

[maus]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by JimP

Post by Questor
You really want to learn something about how "the other half" lives? Sign up
for a holiday retail job at any of the big-name stores in your area. They've
already starting their seasonal hiring campaigns, so they're ready to accept
your application and their standards are quite relaxed. If you had that retail
experience, I think you'd be a lot more patient and understanding about the
employees, instead of thinking you should be the absolute center of attention
whenever you walk into a store.
a
re cumpolsary militart service.
No Military anywhere wamts to enlist 'damaged' young people into their
Army. The history of such units in any Army is disastrous, from the units
That the German Army used in Byelorussia during the war, to the US units
that committed the massacre at MyLai. Films like 'the Dirty Dozen' are
Bull****

During WW2 US criminals were given the choice of enlisting or going to
prison; however, before war's end all US military organizations
refused to take any more of them.

I had a friend that got in some trouble in NYC and the judge gave him
the choice of enlisting for Vietnam or going to jail.
He should have gone to jail, he was never the same. So in at least one
case they were still doing that kind of thing in the 60s-70s.
depemds on tha charge. Smoking a little hash would be different from mugging
a little old lady. A Humane judge would know the difference,

[Questor]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Dan Espen

Post by JimP

Post by Questor
You really want to learn something about how "the other half" lives? Sign up
for a holiday retail job at any of the big-name stores in your area. They've
already starting their seasonal hiring campaigns, so they're ready to accept
your application and their standards are quite relaxed. If you had that retail
experience, I think you'd be a lot more patient and understanding about the
employees, instead of thinking you should be the absolute center of attention
whenever you walk into a store.
a
re cumpolsary militart service.
No Military anywhere wamts to enlist 'damaged' young people into their
Army. The history of such units in any Army is disastrous, from the units
That the German Army used in Byelorussia during the war, to the US units
that committed the massacre at MyLai. Films like 'the Dirty Dozen' are
Bull****

During WW2 US criminals were given the choice of enlisting or going to
prison; however, before war's end all US military organizations
refused to take any more of them.

I had a friend that got in some trouble in NYC and the judge gave him
the choice of enlisting for Vietnam or going to jail.
He should have gone to jail, he was never the same. So in at least one
case they were still doing that kind of thing in the 60s-70s.

depemds on tha charge. Smoking a little hash would be different from mugging
a little old lady. A Humane judge would know the difference,

Of course. The hash smoker would be treated more harshly; the mugger would get
a slap on the wrist.

[Chris]

Post by Questor

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Dan Espen

Post by JimP

Post by Questor
You really want to learn something about how "the other half" lives? Sign up
for a holiday retail job at any of the big-name stores in your area. They've
already starting their seasonal hiring campaigns, so they're ready to accept
your application and their standards are quite relaxed. If you had that retail
experience, I think you'd be a lot more patient and understanding about the
employees, instead of thinking you should be the absolute center of attention
whenever you walk into a store.
a
re cumpolsary militart service.
No Military anywhere wamts to enlist 'damaged' young people into their
Army. The history of such units in any Army is disastrous, from the units
That the German Army used in Byelorussia during the war, to the US units
that committed the massacre at MyLai. Films like 'the Dirty Dozen' are
Bull****

During WW2 US criminals were given the choice of enlisting or going to
prison; however, before war's end all US military organizations
refused to take any more of them.

I had a friend that got in some trouble in NYC and the judge gave him
the choice of enlisting for Vietnam or going to jail.
He should have gone to jail, he was never the same. So in at least one
case they were still doing that kind of thing in the 60s-70s.

depemds on tha charge. Smoking a little hash would be different from mugging
a little old lady. A Humane judge would know the difference,

Of course. The hash smoker would be treated more harshly; the mugger would get
a slap on the wrist.

The UK Army have a program for young offenders which has been very
successful, from what i've read. Turning boys into men, through
training in self discipline, hard work, self reliance and no excuses.
Enuf of the bo**ocks, in fact :-).

Could do with a bit more of such attitudes, or isn't that fashionable
enough any more ?...

Chris

[maus]

Post by Chris

Post by Questor

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Dan Espen
I had a friend that got in some trouble in NYC and the judge gave him
the choice of enlisting for Vietnam or going to jail.
He should have gone to jail, he was never the same. So in at least one
case they were still doing that kind of thing in the 60s-70s.

depemds on tha charge. Smoking a little hash would be different from mugging
a little old lady. A Humane judge would know the difference,

Of course. The hash smoker would be treated more harshly; the mugger would get
a slap on the wrist.

Where? Our police here , (.ie) usual ignore the smokers. but check and
and watch wholesalers. They are easily spotted,

Post by Chris
The UK Army have a program for young offenders which has been very
successful, from what i've read. Turning boys into men, through
training in self discipline, hard work, self reliance and no excuses.
Enuf of the bo**ocks, in fact :-).
Could do with a bit more of such attitudes, or isn't that fashionable
enough any more ?...
Chris

I think it is like .1, multiply by a million numbers just below 1 (say,
.9999999) and you go down, multily by above 1, (say 1.00000000001). It
depends on the individual

It depends. One way to spot an exsoldier is look for someone who is
washed, shaved, and ready about 6.00 am. Many get lost when they retire
and have no inspections.

[Chris]

Post by maus

Post by Chris

Post by Questor

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Dan Espen
I had a friend that got in some trouble in NYC and the judge gave him
the choice of enlisting for Vietnam or going to jail.
He should have gone to jail, he was never the same. So in at least one
case they were still doing that kind of thing in the 60s-70s.

depemds on tha charge. Smoking a little hash would be different from mugging
a little old lady. A Humane judge would know the difference,

Of course. The hash smoker would be treated more harshly; the mugger would get
a slap on the wrist.

Where? Our police here , (.ie) usual ignore the smokers. but check and
and watch wholesalers. They are easily spotted,

Post by Chris
The UK Army have a program for young offenders which has been very
successful, from what i've read. Turning boys into men, through
training in self discipline, hard work, self reliance and no excuses.
Enuf of the bo**ocks, in fact :-).
Could do with a bit more of such attitudes, or isn't that fashionable
enough any more ?...
Chris

I think it is like .1, multiply by a million numbers just below 1 (say,
.9999999) and you go down, multily by above 1, (say 1.00000000001). It
depends on the individual
It depends. One way to spot an exsoldier is look for someone who is
washed, shaved, and ready about 6.00 am. Many get lost when they retire
and have no inspections.

So much in life is dependent on self respect and knowing who you are.
Perhaps the services life does suit some because it can provide the
sort of grounding and example that many people were denied as children.
So many broken families, with the kids often the greatest casualties,
no surprise that some go off the rails.

As for ex soldiers, some do well in management, but many are difficult
because they are direct and don't suffer fools gladly. Not the most
endearing trait in the overly pc and woke world...

Chris



whereas may ex offenders
have found themselves in trouble be

[JimP]

Post by Chris

Post by maus

Post by Chris

Post by Questor

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Dan Espen
I had a friend that got in some trouble in NYC and the judge gave him
the choice of enlisting for Vietnam or going to jail.
He should have gone to jail, he was never the same. So in at least one
case they were still doing that kind of thing in the 60s-70s.

depemds on tha charge. Smoking a little hash would be different from mugging
a little old lady. A Humane judge would know the difference,

Of course. The hash smoker would be treated more harshly; the mugger would get
a slap on the wrist.

Where? Our police here , (.ie) usual ignore the smokers. but check and
and watch wholesalers. They are easily spotted,

Post by Chris
The UK Army have a program for young offenders which has been very
successful, from what i've read. Turning boys into men, through
training in self discipline, hard work, self reliance and no excuses.
Enuf of the bo**ocks, in fact :-).
Could do with a bit more of such attitudes, or isn't that fashionable
enough any more ?...
Chris

I think it is like .1, multiply by a million numbers just below 1 (say,
.9999999) and you go down, multily by above 1, (say 1.00000000001). It
depends on the individual
It depends. One way to spot an exsoldier is look for someone who is
washed, shaved, and ready about 6.00 am. Many get lost when they retire
and have no inspections.

So much in life is dependent on self respect and knowing who you are.
Perhaps the services life does suit some because it can provide the
sort of grounding and example that many people were denied as children.
So many broken families, with the kids often the greatest casualties,
no surprise that some go off the rails.
As for ex soldiers, some do well in management, but many are difficult
because they are direct and don't suffer fools gladly. Not the most
endearing trait in the overly pc and woke world...

I had little tolerance for idiocy before I volunteered. Less after my
contract expired. Well, Reduction in Forces, after Viet Nam.

Some jobs I could point it out, most not.

Post by Chris
Chris
whereas may ex offenders
have found themselves in trouble be

Was there for more ?

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Andreas Kohlbach
cashiers had to remember a three digit code for every item or
look it up from a table o a sheet of paper if they didn't. Type it in and
the register would show the price but also subtract one product. Must be
painful to learn up to 999 items with their code.

Remembering up to 999 (or 1000?) codes is certainly something that
not everybody could do well, so I suspect a certain qualificiation
was needed.

PLU codes on fruits and vegetables in the US are four digits. The
clerks have most of them memorized after a fairly short period of time.

Now that we have self-checkouts, I've memorized a couple: 4011 - banana,
4077 - white sweet corn, 3616 - Apple (Envy).

[Mike Spencer]

Post by Scott Lurndal
PLU codes on fruits and vegetables in the US are four digits. The
clerks have most of them memorized after a fairly short period of time.
Now that we have self-checkouts, I've memorized a couple: 4011 - banana...

One of my father's favorite riffs on someone who was numerically
illiterate was an allusion to the putative number, forty-leven. So I
was entertained to see 4011 appear on every banana with the
introduction of PLU numbers.

Post by Scott Lurndal
...4077 - white sweet corn, 3616 - Apple (Envy).

Last time I was looking into it, there was a bit of a flap developing
in the PLU domain because apple breeders were developing so many new
and distinct varieties that it was threatening to exhaust the 4-digit
standard. Dunno. There are 80 apple varieties in the PLU list on my
HD and 79 tomato varieties.

[JimP]

On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 07:05:44 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dave Garland
I remember reports of a competition where
a 10-key adding machine operator couldn't keep up with a proficient
soroban operator. I suppose that's still true, if there are any
proficient abacus operators left these days.

It would be interesting to see how that would work in competition
with, let's say, a bar code scanner at a supermarket cash register.
These don't work perfectly either...

Since you also appear to be from Germany, remember the 80s and early 90s
at ALDI?
They were so "advanced". Before bar code was used cashiers in
other stores read the price from the label and typed it in. No way to
take track of how many items were still in stock. At ALDI the poor (and
bad paid)

From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets
(whatever that means), but they have far fewer people who are
expected to do all jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

Publix also pays higher. I have seen their employees shelf stocking
throughout the store. Doesn't look like someone is assigned to a
particular section.

[John Levine]

Post by JimP

Post by Thomas Koenig
From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets
(whatever that means), but they have far fewer people who are
expected to do all jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

Publix also pays higher. I have seen their employees shelf stocking
throughout the store. Doesn't look like someone is assigned to a
particular section.

Publix is owned by its employees and has been since the 1930s. It is
consistently profitable, wins awards both for being a good place to
work and a good place to shop, and has a strong commitment to the
communites where its stores are. Just goes to show what happens if you
let the workers take over.

Aldi is actually two different privately owned chains, Aldi Nord with
red signs and Aldi Sud with blue signs. In 1966, when the founder
died, he divided the company in half and gave half to each of his two
sons. The Aldi stores in North America are Aldi Sud. Trader Joe's
belongs to Aldi Nord. Aldi has a repuation for paying well and making
staff work hard.

Here in upstate NY the largest supermarket chain is family owned
Wegmans, with a reputation for pretty good pay and very good employee
relations.

[Andy Burns]

Post by John Levine
Publix is owned by its employees and has been since the 1930s. It is
consistently profitable, wins awards both for being a good place to
work and a good place to shop, and has a strong commitment to the
communites where its stores are. Just goes to show what happens if you
let the workers take over.

Similarly the John Lewis/Waitrose partnerships in the UK, but they're on
the ropes ... low bonuses in recent years, closing some of their newest
branches before covid and deciding to permanently shutter some major
ones post-covid.

[John Levine]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by John Levine
Publix is owned by its employees and has been since the 1930s. It is
consistently profitable, wins awards both for being a good place to
work and a good place to shop, ...

Similarly the John Lewis/Waitrose partnerships in the UK, but they're on
the ropes ... low bonuses in recent years, closing some of their newest
branches before covid and deciding to permanently shutter some major
ones post-covid.

John Lewis' problem is the same problem that all department stores
have. People just don't shop at them like they used to, with COVID
being the last straw.

I gather that Waitrose (their supermarket chain) is doing fine.

[Bob Martin]

Post by John Levine

Post by Andy Burns

Post by John Levine
Publix is owned by its employees and has been since the 1930s. It is
consistently profitable, wins awards both for being a good place to
work and a good place to shop, ...

Similarly the John Lewis/Waitrose partnerships in the UK, but they're on
the ropes ... low bonuses in recent years, closing some of their newest
branches before covid and deciding to permanently shutter some major
ones post-covid.

John Lewis' problem is the same problem that all department stores
have. People just don't shop at them like they used to, with COVID
being the last straw.
I gather that Waitrose (their supermarket chain) is doing fine.

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-07-20/waitrose-to-close-seven-stores-with-almost-700-jobs-at-risk

[Andy Burns]

Post by John Levine
I gather that Waitrose (their supermarket chain) is doing fine.

They closed 18 stores in 2018-19, including some they'd purpose-built
only recently, and which as far as I could see had decent customer
numbers. To add insult to injury, several of them have re-opened as
Lidl stores.

[JimP]

Post by JimP
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 07:05:44 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Dave Garland
I remember reports of a competition where
a 10-key adding machine operator couldn't keep up with a proficient
soroban operator. I suppose that's still true, if there are any
proficient abacus operators left these days.

It would be interesting to see how that would work in competition
with, let's say, a bar code scanner at a supermarket cash register.
These don't work perfectly either...

Since you also appear to be from Germany, remember the 80s and early 90s
at ALDI?
They were so "advanced". Before bar code was used cashiers in
other stores read the price from the label and typed it in. No way to
take track of how many items were still in stock. At ALDI the poor (and
bad paid)

From what I've read, ALDI pays more than other supermarkets
(whatever that means), but they have far fewer people who are
expected to do all jobs, so their overall labor costs are lower.

Publix also pays higher. I have seen their employees shelf stocking
throughout the store. Doesn't look like someone is assigned to a
particular section.

The people who work in the deli, or produce, or meat, don't work in
other areas that I have seen.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Andreas Kohlbach
cashiers had to remember a three digit code for every item or
look it up from a table o a sheet of paper if they didn't. Type it in and
the register would show the price but also subtract one product. Must be
painful to learn up to 999 items with their code.

Remembering up to 999 (or 1000?) codes is certainly something that
not everybody could do well, so I suspect a certain qualificiation
was needed.

1000 is just the highest number of possible items fitting into a
three-digit-code. Suppose they only have some 200-300 articles in
stock. Still a lot to memorize.

[Bob Eager]

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

I remember reports of a competition where a 10-key adding machine
operator couldn't keep up with a proficient soroban operator. I
suppose that's still true, if there are any proficient abacus
operators left these days.

It would be interesting to see how that would work in competition with,
let's say, a bar code scanner at a supermarket cash register.
These don't work perfectly either...

Since you also appear to be from Germany, remember the 80s and early 90s
at ALDI? They were so "advanced". Before bar code was used cashiers in
other stores read the price from the label and typed it in. No way to
take track of how many items were still in stock. At ALDI the poor (and
bad paid) cashiers had to remember a three digit code for every item or
look it up from a table o a sheet of paper if they didn't. Type it in
and the register would show the price but also subtract one product.
Must be painful to learn up to 999 items with their code. And you could
still make a mistake and sell a bottle of pricey sparkling wine for 99
Pfennige (a Pfennig was 1/100 of a Deutschmark).
As everybody else they changed to bar code scanners in the mid 90s.

They still have to use codes sometimes, when bar codes are wrong or
missing. They seem to hold the 'current' ones in theor heads, and have
sheets of paper too.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Freddy1X
Blue LEDs? I can remember when red LEDs was a new and upcoming thing.
Kids! Harumph!

Given the difficulty in progressing from red to green, to blue to UV,
didn't infra-red LEDs come before red?

[Jorgen Grahn]

...

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Dan Espen
I thought the brightness and color would be issues
but they are that common LED blue.

Does anyone remember when there was no such thing as LED blue,
because nobody had figured out how to make them? Then they
were available, but horribly expensive - your typical 25-cent
red or green LED cost $6 in blue.

I remember the "horribly expensive" phase. It included the early
1990s. I had a friend (also the one who convinced me to buy a
Commodore-Amiga) who was into electronics, and he showed me a price
listing: red, green and (gasp!) blue.

/Jorgen

[Niklas Karlsson]

On 2020-09-08, Charlie Gibbs <***@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
[blue LEDs]

Post by Charlie Gibbs
And they're now a horrible mandatory fad. Maybe it's just me -
my eyes never could focus on intense blue light - but I hate
the way they're now used everywhere an indicator is needed,
and in even more places where they're not. I once ran a
sound board in a darkened theatre, and I had to put three
layers of masking tape over the board's bright blue pilot
light so I could see anything else at all. Grrr...

Maybe I'm lucky. Okay, my wireless access point does have an activity
indicator in blue, but otherwise it's all red and green here.

That blue light does do weird things to your eyes, definitely. I'm not
sure if there's any research on that subject.

Niklas

[Dan Espen]

Post by Niklas Karlsson
[blue LEDs]

Post by Charlie Gibbs
And they're now a horrible mandatory fad. Maybe it's just me -
my eyes never could focus on intense blue light - but I hate
the way they're now used everywhere an indicator is needed,
and in even more places where they're not. I once ran a
sound board in a darkened theatre, and I had to put three
layers of masking tape over the board's bright blue pilot
light so I could see anything else at all. Grrr...

Maybe I'm lucky. Okay, my wireless access point does have an activity
indicator in blue, but otherwise it's all red and green here.
That blue light does do weird things to your eyes, definitely. I'm not
sure if there's any research on that subject.

Sure there is.
It was prominently in the news about a year ago.

Too lazy to do any searches right now I think I'm headed outdoors for
some yard work, but search, I'm sure you'll find stuff.

[JimP]

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Dennis Boone
The actually hard part is brightness. They're cheap; maybe order a few
each of various brightnesses, test by touching the wires to the pads,
solder in the one you like and save the rest of that type for future
repairs, then give the rest to someone's hippie girlfriend for
jewelry-making.

Hippie girlfriend. I love it.

:-)

Post by Dan Espen
Actually that describes my deceased wife pretty well.
I thought the brightness and color would be issues
but they are that common LED blue.

Does anyone remember when there was no such thing as LED blue,
because nobody had figured out how to make them? Then they
were available, but horribly expensive - your typical 25-cent
red or green LED cost $6 in blue.
And they're now a horrible mandatory fad. Maybe it's just me -
my eyes never could focus on intense blue light - but I hate
the way they're now used everywhere an indicator is needed,
and in even more places where they're not. I once ran a
sound board in a darkened theatre, and I had to put three
layers of masking tape over the board's bright blue pilot
light so I could see anything else at all. Grrr...

I remember that only red LEDs were around when I first saw LEDs.

When I was a kid, the next town over had an almost movie palace. The
sides, in the seating, had mostly murals instead of lots of statues.
With a few statues. Fountain and more statues out in the lobby.

So every patron could see the time, there was a bright blue lit neon
clock less than a foot from the movie screen. Nice when watching the
1950s monsters from outer space movies, but not so much for the rest.

[Mike]

Post by Charlie Gibbs
Maybe it's just me -
my eyes never could focus on intense blue light

It's not just you. Even trying to get the optician to
compensate by tweaking things, red LEDs are crisp. Green ones
are slightly soft. Blue and "violet" point sources of light are
blurry mess.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by Charlie Gibbs
Does anyone remember when there was no such thing as LED blue,
because nobody had figured out how to make them? Then they
were available, but horribly expensive - your typical 25-cent
red or green LED cost $6 in blue.

Wasn't that just "recently", like early 2XXX? I seem to recall the same
is the case for white LEDs. Today almost every new car has them as front
light.

[Charlie Gibbs]

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by Charlie Gibbs
Does anyone remember when there was no such thing as LED blue,
because nobody had figured out how to make them? Then they
were available, but horribly expensive - your typical 25-cent
red or green LED cost $6 in blue.

Wasn't that just "recently", like early 2XXX?

That sounds about right. I don't remember the exact date.

Post by Andreas Kohlbach
I seem to recall the same is the case for white LEDs.
Today almost every new car has them as front light.

They're also taking over as street lighting in many places.
We replaced the failing 70-watt high-pressure sodium wall packs
in our hangar complex with 25-watt LED units. Although the
unit price is over twice as much, I calculate they will pay
for themselves in 10 years in electricity savings alone (and
aside from the infant mortality issues, they'll hopefully still
be going strong after those 10 years).

Figuring out how to make high-powered LEDs was a game-changer.

[JimP]

Post by Charlie Gibbs

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by Charlie Gibbs
Does anyone remember when there was no such thing as LED blue,
because nobody had figured out how to make them? Then they
were available, but horribly expensive - your typical 25-cent
red or green LED cost $6 in blue.

Wasn't that just "recently", like early 2XXX?

That sounds about right. I don't remember the exact date.

Post by Andreas Kohlbach
I seem to recall the same is the case for white LEDs.
Today almost every new car has them as front light.

They're also taking over as street lighting in many places.
We replaced the failing 70-watt high-pressure sodium wall packs
in our hangar complex with 25-watt LED units. Although the
unit price is over twice as much, I calculate they will pay
for themselves in 10 years in electricity savings alone (and
aside from the infant mortality issues, they'll hopefully still
be going strong after those 10 years).
Figuring out how to make high-powered LEDs was a game-changer.

Not quite in the same ballpark of power, but I bought a nice 5 watt
white LED flashlight a few months ago, and it is rechargable. On sale
for about $20.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Wed, 09 Sep 2020 18:51:23 -0400

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by Charlie Gibbs
Does anyone remember when there was no such thing as LED blue,
because nobody had figured out how to make them? Then they
were available, but horribly expensive - your typical 25-cent
red or green LED cost $6 in blue.

Wasn't that just "recently", like early 2XXX? I seem to recall the same
is the case for white LEDs. Today almost every new car has them as front
light.

White LEDs are blue LEDs shining through a phosphor that re-emits
in the red and yellow so they're coming from the same breakthrough.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

Post by Ahem A Rivet's Shot
On Wed, 09 Sep 2020 18:51:23 -0400

Post by Andreas Kohlbach

Post by Charlie Gibbs
Does anyone remember when there was no such thing as LED blue,
because nobody had figured out how to make them? Then they
were available, but horribly expensive - your typical 25-cent
red or green LED cost $6 in blue.

Wasn't that just "recently", like early 2XXX? I seem to recall the same
is the case for white LEDs. Today almost every new car has them as front
light.

White LEDs are blue LEDs shining through a phosphor that re-emits
in the red and yellow so they're coming from the same breakthrough.

Ah thanks.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Dan Espen
Recently I complained about a keyboard I was interested in but it had no
apparent scroll lock LED.
So, I got the model wrong.
The keyboard in question is the Logitech G513.

Looked at the product page for it:

https://www.logitechg.com/en-ca/products/gaming-keyboards/g513-backlit-mechanical-gaming-keyboard.html

There are indeed only *two* lights in the part of the keyboard where you would
see Num Lock, Caps Lock, and Scroll Lock on a normal IBM keyboard.

The light on the *left* has an A with a circle around it under it, so I guess
that's the Caps Lock key.

The second light has a G with a circle around it beneath. So I have to conclude
that it probably _isn't_ the Num Lock light, and this keyboard doesn't have one
of them *either*. Instead, presumably it indicates if the keyboard is in "gaming
mode" or some such thing.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dan Espen
Recently I complained about a keyboard I was interested in but it had no
apparent scroll lock LED.
So, I got the model wrong.
The keyboard in question is the Logitech G513.

https://www.logitechg.com/en-ca/products/gaming-keyboards/g513-backlit-mechanical-gaming-keyboard.html
There are indeed only *two* lights in the part of the keyboard where you would
see Num Lock, Caps Lock, and Scroll Lock on a normal IBM keyboard.
The light on the *left* has an A with a circle around it under it, so I guess
that's the Caps Lock key.
The second light has a G with a circle around it beneath. So I have to conclude
that it probably _isn't_ the Num Lock light, and this keyboard doesn't have one
of them *either*. Instead, presumably it indicates if the keyboard is in "gaming
mode" or some such thing.

Yes, FN+F8 puts the keyboard in Game Mode. By default, that disables the window
key, but it is configurable to have other effects.

John Savard

[Dan Espen]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dan Espen
Recently I complained about a keyboard I was interested in but it had no
apparent scroll lock LED.
So, I got the model wrong.
The keyboard in question is the Logitech G513.

https://www.logitechg.com/en-ca/products/gaming-keyboards/g513-backlit-mechanical-gaming-keyboard.html
There are indeed only *two* lights in the part of the keyboard where you would
see Num Lock, Caps Lock, and Scroll Lock on a normal IBM keyboard.
The light on the *left* has an A with a circle around it under it, so I guess
that's the Caps Lock key.
The second light has a G with a circle around it beneath. So I have to conclude
that it probably _isn't_ the Num Lock light, and this keyboard doesn't have one
of them *either*. Instead, presumably it indicates if the keyboard is in "gaming
mode" or some such thing.

Yes, somewhere in my searching, maybe the comments I read that G is Game
Mode.

On the "A" I'm mystified. I did have the thought about an upper case A
indicating cAps lock, but it seemed unlikely.

How you work with a keyboard with no numlock/capslock is a mystery to
me.

I looked at all this stuff this spring. I keep going back hoping that
they'll replace the model I really wanted (815) with something similar,
but no luck so far.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Dan Espen
On the "A" I'm mystified. I did have the thought about an upper case A
indicating cAps lock, but it seemed unlikely.

Since many keyboards use "Aa" to indicate caps lock, that was the first
possibility that suggested itself to me. Unfortunately, I can't really find much
documentation for the keyboard.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dan Espen
On the "A" I'm mystified. I did have the thought about an upper case A
indicating cAps lock, but it seemed unlikely.

Since many keyboards use "Aa" to indicate caps lock, that was the first
possibility that suggested itself to me. Unfortunately, I can't really find much
documentation for the keyboard.

So I found a video review of the keyboard:

but it didn't answer the question. However, I saw a glimpse of Logitech's game
control software that goes with the keyboard, and the letter A was next to 'text
block', so I wouldn't be surprised if the A light was configurable. Maybe you
can see if you're in num lock and scroll lock on your screen.

John Savard

[Niklas Karlsson]

Post by Dan Espen
On the "A" I'm mystified. I did have the thought about an upper case A
indicating cAps lock, but it seemed unlikely.

FWIW, my bare-bones Deltaco keyboard indicates Caps Lock with an upper
case A in a square with rounded corners. Doesn't mean that's the case
with the model you found, but it's a data point at least.

Niklas

[Andy Burns]

Post by Quadibloc
The light on the *left* has an A with a circle around it under it, so I guess
that's the Caps Lock key.
The second light has a G with a circle around it beneath. So I have to conclude
that it probably _isn't_ the Num Lock light, and this keyboard doesn't have one
of them *either*.

Wonder whether you could program the scroll-lock and num-lock keys to
change their illumination colour if the corresponding lock is 'on'?

[J. Clarke]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Quadibloc
The light on the *left* has an A with a circle around it under it, so I guess
that's the Caps Lock key.
The second light has a G with a circle around it beneath. So I have to conclude
that it probably _isn't_ the Num Lock light, and this keyboard doesn't have one
of them *either*.

Wonder whether you could program the scroll-lock and num-lock keys to
change their illumination colour if the corresponding lock is 'on'?

I'm wondering the same thing. I'm also wondering if it happens
automatically, which is why I need to hook mine up and check.

[Dan Espen]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Quadibloc
The light on the *left* has an A with a circle around it under it, so I guess
that's the Caps Lock key.
The second light has a G with a circle around it beneath. So I have to conclude
that it probably _isn't_ the Num Lock light, and this keyboard doesn't have one
of them *either*.

Wonder whether you could program the scroll-lock and num-lock keys to
change their illumination colour if the corresponding lock is 'on'?

I could. I'm just trying to keep my software as generic as possible.


The software I do this with has hard coded:

os.system('xset -led named "Scroll Lock"')
and
os.system('xset led named "Scroll Lock"')

So, I could just change the hard coding.
The software would be useful for anyone though and I have half
a desire to put it on github for general use. So, I'd want
to make the toggle commands customizable.

So, yes I could use the RGB to toggle the color of any of the LEDs,
it's just going to be a bit ugly.

This is part of a tool I wrote that
monitors an IMAP mailbox.

Any unread mail, the scroll lock light goes on, a desktop icon changes
color and the count of unread mails is shown. Each new mail is
optionally run through spamassassin and deleted if spam. Each new
mail is matched to a pattern for the From/To/Subject lines and
a unique sound is played appropriately.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Quadibloc
The light on the *left* has an A with a circle around it under it, so I guess
that's the Caps Lock key.
The second light has a G with a circle around it beneath. So I have to conclude
that it probably _isn't_ the Num Lock light, and this keyboard doesn't have one
of them *either*.

Wonder whether you could program the scroll-lock and num-lock keys to
change their illumination colour if the corresponding lock is 'on'?

I could. I'm just trying to keep my software as generic as possible.
os.system('xset -led named "Scroll Lock"')
and
os.system('xset led named "Scroll Lock"')
So, I could just change the hard coding.
The software would be useful for anyone though and I have half
a desire to put it on github for general use. So, I'd want
to make the toggle commands customizable.
So, yes I could use the RGB to toggle the color of any of the LEDs,
it's just going to be a bit ugly.
This is part of a tool I wrote that
monitors an IMAP mailbox.
Any unread mail, the scroll lock light goes on, a desktop icon changes
color and the count of unread mails is shown. Each new mail is
optionally run through spamassassin and deleted if spam. Each new
mail is matched to a pattern for the From/To/Subject lines and
a unique sound is played appropriately.

I'm not finding any straightforward way to get a functioning
scroll-lock indicator on the 915. I think that it might be possible
by assigning a couple of layouts, one with the scroll-lock key one
color and another with it a different one (damn this is a nice
keyboard though--much nicer than the 910, at least I'm not hitting as
many typos--but it oughta be for the price) and then putting a macro
on scroll-lock that changes the layout in addition to sending the
scroll-lock. But I don't know if that will work if scroll-lock is set
externally to the keyboard.

[Dan Espen]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dan Espen

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Quadibloc
The light on the *left* has an A with a circle around it under it, so I guess
that's the Caps Lock key.
The second light has a G with a circle around it beneath. So I have to conclude
that it probably _isn't_ the Num Lock light, and this keyboard doesn't have one
of them *either*.

Wonder whether you could program the scroll-lock and num-lock keys to
change their illumination colour if the corresponding lock is 'on'?

I could. I'm just trying to keep my software as generic as possible.
os.system('xset -led named "Scroll Lock"')
and
os.system('xset led named "Scroll Lock"')
So, I could just change the hard coding.
The software would be useful for anyone though and I have half
a desire to put it on github for general use. So, I'd want
to make the toggle commands customizable.
So, yes I could use the RGB to toggle the color of any of the LEDs,
it's just going to be a bit ugly.
This is part of a tool I wrote that
monitors an IMAP mailbox.
Any unread mail, the scroll lock light goes on, a desktop icon changes
color and the count of unread mails is shown. Each new mail is
optionally run through spamassassin and deleted if spam. Each new
mail is matched to a pattern for the From/To/Subject lines and
a unique sound is played appropriately.

I'm not finding any straightforward way to get a functioning
scroll-lock indicator on the 915. I think that it might be possible
by assigning a couple of layouts, one with the scroll-lock key one
color and another with it a different one (damn this is a nice
keyboard though--much nicer than the 910, at least I'm not hitting as
many typos--but it oughta be for the price) and then putting a macro
on scroll-lock that changes the layout in addition to sending the
scroll-lock. But I don't know if that will work if scroll-lock is set
externally to the keyboard.

Thanks for looking.
Does it have working num-lock and I'm guessing that A light is
caps-lock?

To turn on/off scroll lock I use the commands

xset -led named "Scroll Lock"
xset led named "Scroll Lock"

I don't know if Windows has an equivalent.

But since the keyboard lets me mess with each individual light,
I'll just set up a command to make scroll lock brighter/dimmer or maybe mess
with the light behind the G if that's supported.

I don't ever hit the scroll lock key, I'm just using it as an indicator.

Long ago when I first worked this out I found that turning on the caps
lock or num lock LED actually activated the function too. Turning on
scroll lock didn't do anything I could notice.

Actually, I do sometimes hit the scroll lock key, when I want to invoke
the screen locker. But that doesn't do anything to the light.

I liked the look of the G815 better. I think it should be pretty nice too.
Looks like it'll take a week or so to get here.