Discussion:
Pre-Appeal Conference
(too old to reply)
s***@gmail.com
2006-01-15 05:09:20 UTC
Permalink
I have recently received an outcome from the Pre-Conference Appeal
Committee. Accordingly, they have returned a decision to open the
application for examination. Administratively, when I call the
supervisor for a decision, I was told my application was wrongly filed
by USPTO and it was 2 days before christmas. So, make sure you call
them as soon as you filed one and follow up. It finally took them until
4 Jan to have the conference and a decision on 6 Jan but I could only
see it on PAIR on the 10 Jan ( not sure why ?). Lately I notice mailing
room records and PAIR details are not sync but thats another issue.

I asked the supervisor whether I could continue the appeal (ie file the
appeal brief) instead of waiting for the next action letter. Anwyay, I
got a negative response and I am wondering if this is correct.

The authority in 35 USC 134 (a) - An applicant for a patent, any of
whose claims has been twice rejected, may appeal from the decision of
the administrative patent judge to the Board of Patent Appeals and
Interferences, having once paid the fee for such appeal, which
basically means applicant has legal basis to continue filing an appeal
regardless of the outcome.

In particular, at para 7 (New Pre-Appeal Brief Conference Pilot Program
Page) and I quote "Applicant's period for filing the appeal brief or
other appropriate response ends on the mailing date of a panel decision
that indicates all claims are allowed or that prosecution is reopened.
" I could not find any authority that provides a basis for this as it
effectively abrogate the applicant rights to submit the appeal brief
without any recourse.

My reason for this stems from the financial cost which is having paid
250 for a notice of appeal cum pre-conference, I am now back in square
one again and having to wait for another 3 months for another action
letter. And if I find the action letter is not meritorious, I have to
file another 250 to file second notice, assuming the first appeal fee
is now lapsed. If another pre-conference is required then this could in
theory go back to opening for examination as the outcome. In a way
pre-conference seems to be a good circuit breaker for USPTO but not so
for applicant who just want the matter to reach some kind of finality.
I suppose that is why applicant opt for appeal instead of abandonment.

Not sure if any estoppel will be raised here since it could mean by
being silent ( allowing the matter back to square one) , I am agreeing
to the Appeal Committee's decision which by the way place no
reasoning on record. In short, had I not use the pre-appeal conference,
I need only to spend 500 in total to get finality (albeit a longer
time). In this case, if the next action letter is not meritorious and I
choose to ignore any further Pre-Appeal Conference, the total cost of
reaching a finality is 750 (assuming there is no further rise in fees).
In short it may be the case where having 3 independent people looking
at it is better serve than having 3 where at least one (the examiner)
has an interest to sustain the status quo.

My feedback is the pre-conference appeal would be better serve to
include some kind of feedback by the committee and to allow a refund
where the case is re-open or in allowance given this must evidence some
serious issue on the part of earlier action letters. Other than this, I
am not sure if there is any incentive at all for applicants, in
particularly where one mistakenly provides ammunition to the USPTO to
response at appeal by raising issues found in the pre-appeal
submission, which in most cases is a mini appeal brief.

Anyone else having experience with Pre-Appeal Conference ? Would I do
it the next time ? Probably not.

CK
Steve Marcus
2006-01-15 13:43:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
I have recently received an outcome from the Pre-Conference Appeal
Committee. Accordingly, they have returned a decision to open the
application for examination. Administratively, when I call the
supervisor for a decision, I was told my application was wrongly filed
by USPTO and it was 2 days before christmas. So, make sure you call
them as soon as you filed one and follow up. It finally took them until
4 Jan to have the conference and a decision on 6 Jan but I could only
see it on PAIR on the 10 Jan ( not sure why ?). Lately I notice mailing
room records and PAIR details are not sync but thats another issue.
I asked the supervisor whether I could continue the appeal (ie file the
appeal brief) instead of waiting for the next action letter. Anwyay, I
got a negative response and I am wondering if this is correct.
The authority in 35 USC 134 (a) - An applicant for a patent, any of
whose claims has been twice rejected, may appeal from the decision of
the administrative patent judge to the Board of Patent Appeals and
Interferences, having once paid the fee for such appeal, which
basically means applicant has legal basis to continue filing an appeal
regardless of the outcome.
In particular, at para 7 (New Pre-Appeal Brief Conference Pilot Program
Page) and I quote "Applicant's period for filing the appeal brief or
other appropriate response ends on the mailing date of a panel decision
that indicates all claims are allowed or that prosecution is reopened.
" I could not find any authority that provides a basis for this as it
effectively abrogate the applicant rights to submit the appeal brief
without any recourse.
My reason for this stems from the financial cost which is having paid
250 for a notice of appeal cum pre-conference, I am now back in square
one again and having to wait for another 3 months for another action
letter. And if I find the action letter is not meritorious, I have to
file another 250 to file second notice, assuming the first appeal fee
is now lapsed. If another pre-conference is required then this could in
theory go back to opening for examination as the outcome. In a way
pre-conference seems to be a good circuit breaker for USPTO but not so
for applicant who just want the matter to reach some kind of finality.
I suppose that is why applicant opt for appeal instead of abandonment.
Not sure if any estoppel will be raised here since it could mean by
being silent ( allowing the matter back to square one) , I am agreeing
to the Appeal Committee's decision which by the way place no
reasoning on record. In short, had I not use the pre-appeal conference,
I need only to spend 500 in total to get finality (albeit a longer
time). In this case, if the next action letter is not meritorious and I
choose to ignore any further Pre-Appeal Conference, the total cost of
reaching a finality is 750 (assuming there is no further rise in fees).
In short it may be the case where having 3 independent people looking
at it is better serve than having 3 where at least one (the examiner)
has an interest to sustain the status quo.
My feedback is the pre-conference appeal would be better serve to
include some kind of feedback by the committee and to allow a refund
where the case is re-open or in allowance given this must evidence some
serious issue on the part of earlier action letters. Other than this, I
am not sure if there is any incentive at all for applicants, in
particularly where one mistakenly provides ammunition to the USPTO to
response at appeal by raising issues found in the pre-appeal
submission, which in most cases is a mini appeal brief.
Anyone else having experience with Pre-Appeal Conference ? Would I do
it the next time ? Probably not.
You evidently do not understand the program. The pre-appeal brief
conference let's PTO save you the time and money involved in filing an
appeal brief and waiting for the BPAI decision in cases where you have
received a bad rejection. Please read this:
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/sol/og/2005/week28/patbref.htm

Note that the pilot program is on-going:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/dapp/opla/preognotice/preappealbrief_ext.pdf

The point of the program is that if your case is clearly patentable, you've
been save time and expense in the appeal. If your case is unpatentable but
the best prior art is not presently in the record for the appeal to go
forward, then the Office has saved you the time and money of going forward
with your appeal and then paying an issue fee (and thereafter, perhaps,
maintenance fees) on an invalid patent.

From the tenor of your post, you don't seem to care about anything but
winning the appeal, even if the appeal isn't based on the best prior art.
Post by s***@gmail.com
CK
Steve
--
The above posting is neither a legal opinion nor legal advice,
because we do not have an attorney-client relationship, and
should not be construed as either. This posting does not
represent the opinion of my employer, but is merely my personal
view. To reply, delete _spamout_ and replace with the numeral 3
s***@gmail.com
2006-01-16 06:23:48 UTC
Permalink
That is because I have been telling the examiner many times he is not
using the appropriate prior arts. I have received 5 action letters and
the final being the 6th. It is now in the fifth year since filing
coming to 6th so you can understand why I have little faith. But
obviously if others have positive feedback, please share with us here.
And I was actually asking whether USPTO has authority to stop me from
going to BPAI.

CK
Steve Marcus
2006-01-16 13:03:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
That is because I have been telling the examiner many times he is not
using the appropriate prior arts.
Apparently, the examiner has now been told that his prior art wasn't good
enough by a couple of other examiner who probably have tons of experience.
Post by s***@gmail.com
I have received 5 action letters and
the final being the 6th. It is now in the fifth year since filing
coming to 6th so you can understand why I have little faith. But
obviously if others have positive feedback, please share with us here.
And I was actually asking whether USPTO has authority to stop me from
going to BPAI.
They don't. However, the may "stop you" from going to the BPAI by allowing
all of your claims, or enough claims of appropriate scope that you may
choose not to appeal. Or, they may allow you to go to the BPAI on better
prior art than the examiner has been asserting to date.
Post by s***@gmail.com
CK
Steve
--
The above posting is neither a legal opinion nor legal advice,
because we do not have an attorney-client relationship, and
should not be construed as either. This posting does not
represent the opinion of my employer, but is merely my personal
view. To reply, delete _spamout_ and replace with the numeral 3
James White
2006-01-15 15:33:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
CK
I have recently received an outcome from the Pre-Conference Appeal
Committee. Accordingly, they have returned a decision to open the
application for examination. Administratively, when I call the
What the HELL are you bitchin' and moanin' about. For $250 and minimal
hassles you got EXACTLY what mucho time and energy and a full appeal and
hearing would have gotten you anyway----back into another round of
examination. And on top of that they put you into the program WITHOUT you
having to do all their STUPID i dotting and t crossing machinations to get
there!!!! You got a real good deal. Any (mis)belief that the Appeal Board
makes "final" allowance decisions is based only on EXCEPTIONS, not on
reality.

In my opinion the Panel program is WAY overdue given the ongoing quality
problems with Examiners and their Supervisors.
--
James E. White
Inventor, Marketer, and Author of "Will It Sell? How to Determine If
Your Invention Is Profitably Marketable (Before Wasting Money on a
Patent)" Info Sites: www.willitsell.com www.inventorhome.com,
www.idearights.com www.taletyano.com www.booksforinventors.com
[Follow sig link for email address. Replies go to spam bit-bucket]
s***@gmail.com
2006-01-16 06:19:21 UTC
Permalink
I was asking the question where is the authority to STOP me from going
ahead with the BPAI. And you seem to forget the Pre-Appeal process use
the same examiner together with 2 other examiners usually supervisor
without any knowledge of the application.

CK
Post by James White
Post by s***@gmail.com
CK
I have recently received an outcome from the Pre-Conference Appeal
Committee. Accordingly, they have returned a decision to open the
application for examination. Administratively, when I call the
What the HELL are you bitchin' and moanin' about. For $250 and minimal
hassles you got EXACTLY what mucho time and energy and a full appeal and
hearing would have gotten you anyway----back into another round of
examination. And on top of that they put you into the program WITHOUT you
having to do all their STUPID i dotting and t crossing machinations to get
there!!!! You got a real good deal. Any (mis)belief that the Appeal Board
makes "final" allowance decisions is based only on EXCEPTIONS, not on
reality.
In my opinion the Panel program is WAY overdue given the ongoing quality
problems with Examiners and their Supervisors.
--
James E. White
Inventor, Marketer, and Author of "Will It Sell? How to Determine If
Your Invention Is Profitably Marketable (Before Wasting Money on a
Patent)" Info Sites: www.willitsell.com www.inventorhome.com,
www.idearights.com www.taletyano.com www.booksforinventors.com
[Follow sig link for email address. Replies go to spam bit-bucket]
Steve Marcus
2006-01-16 13:09:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
I was asking the question where is the authority to STOP me from going
ahead with the BPAI. And you seem to forget the Pre-Appeal process use
the same examiner together with 2 other examiners usually supervisor
without any knowledge of the application.
CK
35 USC 134(a) simply states:

"PATENT APPLICANT.- An applicant for a patent, any of whose claims has been
twice rejected, may appeal from the decision of the primary examiner to the
Board of Patent Appeals and Interferences, having once paid the fee for such
appeal."


The statute does not state that the appeal cannot be "settled" by the Office
before a Board decision by allowing the application, or that the Office
cannot withdraw the rejection upon which the appeal was based.

You belief seems to be that if the Office has made a mistake by finally
rejecting (or twice rejecting) your claims, the Office cannot correct its
mistake. You also somehow seem to believe that if an appeal goes to the
BPAI based upon "bad" prior art, and you win the appeal, that your patent is
somehow immune from later being held invalid over "better" prior art.

Both beliefs are wrong.

Steve
--
The above posting is neither a legal opinion nor legal advice,
because we do not have an attorney-client relationship, and
should not be construed as either. This posting does not
represent the opinion of my employer, but is merely my personal
view. To reply, delete _spamout_ and replace with the numeral 3
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by James White
Post by s***@gmail.com
CK
I have recently received an outcome from the Pre-Conference Appeal
Committee. Accordingly, they have returned a decision to open the
application for examination. Administratively, when I call the
What the HELL are you bitchin' and moanin' about. For $250 and minimal
hassles you got EXACTLY what mucho time and energy and a full appeal and
hearing would have gotten you anyway----back into another round of
examination. And on top of that they put you into the program WITHOUT you
having to do all their STUPID i dotting and t crossing machinations to get
there!!!! You got a real good deal. Any (mis)belief that the Appeal Board
makes "final" allowance decisions is based only on EXCEPTIONS, not on
reality.
In my opinion the Panel program is WAY overdue given the ongoing quality
problems with Examiners and their Supervisors.
--
James E. White
Inventor, Marketer, and Author of "Will It Sell? How to Determine If
Your Invention Is Profitably Marketable (Before Wasting Money on a
Patent)" Info Sites: www.willitsell.com www.inventorhome.com,
www.idearights.com www.taletyano.com www.booksforinventors.com
[Follow sig link for email address. Replies go to spam bit-bucket]
s***@gmail.com
2006-01-17 02:28:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Marcus
Post by s***@gmail.com
I was asking the question where is the authority to STOP me from going
ahead with the BPAI. And you seem to forget the Pre-Appeal process use
the same examiner together with 2 other examiners usually supervisor
without any knowledge of the application.
CK
"PATENT APPLICANT.- An applicant for a patent, any of whose claims has been
twice rejected, may appeal from the decision of the primary examiner to the
Board of Patent Appeals and Interferences, having once paid the fee for such
appeal."
The statute does not state that the appeal cannot be "settled" by the Office
before a Board decision by allowing the application, or that the Office
cannot withdraw the rejection upon which the appeal was based.
My understanding of statute is that where the statue gives or provides
a right to do something expressly as above, then unless there is also
clear expression to the contrary, the latter would not be the wishes of
the lawmaker. Otherwise, we can look at any rules/policy made by USPTO
which counter or qualify said expression to see if there is any legal
basis to do so.
Post by Steve Marcus
You belief seems to be that if the Office has made a mistake by finally
rejecting (or twice rejecting) your claims, the Office cannot correct its
mistake. You also somehow seem to believe that if an appeal goes to the
BPAI based upon "bad" prior art, and you win the appeal, that your patent is
somehow immune from later being held invalid over "better" prior art.
I am all for USPTO to correct any mistakes they like but it must be
done fairly and without any financial damage to their clients. As
mentioned in my feedback, it may be an encouragement for applicant if
there is some kind of refund from the 250 which is technically for the
appeal notice. The fact that by re-opening examination and denying the
applicant further process to appeal means the fee for appeal notice
having once paid is no longer applicable. Alternatively, if there is a
second application to appeal (after the re-opening of examination) then
the initial notice of appeal fee will be waived given it has already
been once paid. 35 USC 134(a) distinctively said "having once paid the
fee for such" . It makes it clear by the word "ONCE"

At this stage it is not clear but I assume should I appeal again, I
will have to re-submit the appeal notice plus 250. My belief is that
USPTO has only the right to suspend the appeal process pending
re-opening of examination and the applicant's right to appeal subsist
while this examination is in progress and automatically reliven upon
reaching a final rejection. I have asked USPTO about this and have yet
to receive a reply.

I also read somewhere that USPTO is considering a lesser charge of 130
for the express purpose of this pre-appeal conference ( ie detaching it
completely from the appeal process). It is well known in the past
whenever an applicant submits an appeal brief, it will go to the
director of technology where they will make some kind of decision. This
appeal process is merely a formalised way of doing this which may save
the applicant the 250 as compare to 500 to reach the director's desk
previously. So to me this is the only financial advantage as far as a
pro se applicant can see.

If there is going to be a challenge on validity in court then as one
can see from recent cases, there will certainly be a flood of better
prior arts coming in. Therefore no patent can absolutely be protected
and even more so when other means are being employed more frequently
now (see Blackberry case) to invalidate them. Obviously having been
tested by the best prior arts during examination is helpful. Again for
pro se applicant like myself, it is very unlikely I could sustain any
legal challege financially for a long period of time and it would be
unlikely that I would be asserting my rights on the big boys if any.

Another point worth mentioning is that particularly in my case, I have
done all the search for the examiner and provided other prior arts and
argue them in my case. I even pointed to him that a 'similar' patent
has been issued which post-date my application. Obviously my belief is
that he did not read beyond my third page of my submissions. Hence, my
suggestion to the pre-appeal to include some reasoning in their
decision. At least I am aware of what is happening and what lead to
their decision which is not available.

Another point is that the pre-appeal commitee consist of 3 persons and
one of them is the original examiner. Therefore, I can imagine given
the close relationship between the other two being colleagues of the
examiner, some bias may exist. In short, the final decision making has
to be done by the other two since the original examiner could not vote
on this. So what if there is a tie between the other two examiners ? So
the solution is either to exclude the original examiner or have 4
instead of 3. And to provide some direct form of financial incentive
for the examiners (other than original examiner) to look at the cases.

Lastly, one must not forget, all applicants can submit a response after
final and I can't understand why the pre-appeal committee could not
examine this instead of mandatory insisting on a 5 page limit coupled
with a notice of appeal costing 250. In short, USPTO can simply make a
rule to limit any response after final to 5 page and automatically vet
this when a lesser fee is included. Frankly, I am doubtful any examiner
actually read after final response but perhaps with the pre-appeal
conferencel, they will serious consider them from now on. This may be
another advantage of having the pre-appeal conference.

Hence my conclusion is that the advantages for USPTO outweights those
for applicants in its current form.

CK
Post by Steve Marcus
Both beliefs are wrong.
Steve
--
The above posting is neither a legal opinion nor legal advice,
because we do not have an attorney-client relationship, and
should not be construed as either. This posting does not
represent the opinion of my employer, but is merely my personal
view. To reply, delete _spamout_ and replace with the numeral 3
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