Chapter of the Week LOTR Bk2 Ch6 Lothlorien

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
Book 2, Chapter 6: Lothlorien

To read previous Chapter of the Week discussions, or to sign up to
introduce a future chapter, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org

Chapter Summary
===============

At the end of the last chapter, the remaining members of the Fellowship
had barely escaped alive from Moria, and: "Gandalf, in battle with a
dreadful spirit of the underworld, fell into a dark abyss. But Aragorn
[...] led the company on from the East Gate of Moria..." (Synopsis in
'The Two Towers')

Aragorn is now the leader of the Company. He holds up his sword in
farewell to Gandalf and briefly despairs at having lost Gandalf's
guidance: "What hope have we without you?" Nevertheless, Aragorn takes
on the role of leadership and says: "We must do without hope." The
Company make ready to leave.
[1]-[3]

Around them, they see the geography of Dimrill Dale, a deep valley
running nearly north-south between two arms of the Misty Mountains. At
the north end is the Dimrill Stair, down which a waterfall flows. This
is the path the Company would have taken if they had managed to travel
through the Pass of Caradhras. Dominating the valley is the lake of
Mirrormere (Kheled-zaram). To the south, the mountains recede into the
distance and far lands are seen to the south and east. This is
Wilderland, and they are now east of the Misty Mountains.
[4]

The Company follow the remains of an ancient road, passing broken ruins
of dwarven stone monuments and green mounds. The road takes them south,
passing near Mirrormere. Gimli and Frodo (and Sam) turn aside, and they
look in Mirrormere at the spot marked by Durin's Stone. They see
reflections of the encircling mountains mirrored in a profound blue,
appearing like a crown, and topped by stars glinting in the sky, even
though sunlight is still in the sky above. This, according to Gimli, is
the crown of Durin, a sight that leaves Sam deep in thought.
[5]-[7]

The Company carry on southwards, finding the spring that is the source
of the river Silverlode (Celebrant). They see, far off, the woods of
Lothlorien, and set off down the western bank of the Silverlode towards
that land. Aragorn leads them at a great pace, fearing the pursuit of
orcs from Moria as the swift sunset brings a near-moonless night. Frodo
and Sam, hurt in Moria, fall behind. When this is noticed, Aragorn
apologises and he and Boromir carry Sam and Frodo to a resting place.
Athelas is used to tend Sam and Frodo's wounds, and Frodo's coat of
mithril-mail is discovered, explaining his surviving the orc-attack in
Moria.
[8]

Later, as the company journey onwards and night has fallen, Frodo hears
and sees something following them. However, Gimli hears nothing but the
night-speech of plant and stone. The night-wind blows chill up the
valley, and a shadow looms up before them as they arrive at Lothlorien.
We hear different stories and reactions from the members of the Company:
Legolas and Aragorn are glad to be here; Gimli doubts that any Elves
still dwell here; Legolas says that there are tales of a secret power in
Lorien and Elves still dwell deep in the woods; Aragorn confirms this;
while Boromir shows his uncertainty and relates tales of the peril of
the Golden Wood. Aragorn tells Boromir that there is no other way and
there is only peril for evil people.
[9]-[10]

A short way into the forest, they rest beside a waterfall where a
mountain-stream joins the Silverlode. This is the stream called
Nimrodel. The cold clean waters wash the weariness from Frodo's limbs.
As they rest here, he hears music in the running water. Legolas says it
is the voice of Nimrodel, and he sings a song of the Elf-maiden Nimrodel
who was named after the stream. He tells of the history of Lorien, and
the fate of Nimrodel and her lover Amroth.
[11]

The Company then move deeper into the forest, moving westwards away from
the Silverlode along the stream of Nimrodel. They discover mellyrn
(mallorn) trees and decide to climb them to hide from the orcs. As
Legolas starts to climb one of them, a voice speaks from the trees. They
have been challenged by elves of Lorien, guarding the borders of their
land. Frodo and Legolas are invited up to talk to them. They converse in
Elvish and then the Common Speech, and the Haldir, the leader of these
Elves agrees to lead the Company through their land. The Company climb
and sleep in the trees. During the night, Frodo hears orcs and the
unknown stalker.
[12]

The next day, the Company are told that an army of orcs has passed into
the woods of Lorien, but that Lorien is being roused and none of the
orcs will escape alive. Haldir leads them eastwards across the
Silverlode using ropes to build a walkway. There is then a dispute over
blindfolding Gimli the Dwarf, which is the law of their land. Gimli
protests this treatment. Aragorn proposes that all shall be blindfolded,
and Legolas laments this. As the blindfolded Company walk on into
Lorien, Haldir and Merry talk of Elf-havens near the Shire. Frodo is
overcome by a strange feeling as they walk deeper into the Naith, the
heart of Lorien:

"As soon as he set foot upon the far bank of the Silverlode a strange
feeling had come upon him, and it deepened as he walked on into the
Naith: it seemed to him that he had stepped over a bridge of time into a
corner of the Elder Days, and was now walking in a world that was no
more. In Rivendell there was memory of ancient things; in Lorien the
ancient things still lived on in the waking world."

[13]-[15]

The Company march all day and sleep blindfolded. The next day, at noon,
an army of Elves report that the orcs have been destroyed, and the
strange creature had been spotted again. A message from the Lord and
Lady of the Galadhrim (the Elves of Lorien) declares that the Company
shall walk free. The blindfolds are removed from Gimli first. His pardon
is asked, and he is declared to be the first dwarf to see the Naith of
Lorien since Durin's Day.

There is a wonderful description of the beauty of Lorien, a beauty that
makes Frodo catch his breath. He sees a great mound with: "grass as
green as Spring-time in the Elder Days." Haldir declares that they are
come to Cerin Amroth, the ancient heart of the realm of Lorien and
onetime home of Amroth himself. Flowers of white/green and gold
(niphredil and elanor) cover the mound, which is topped with rings of
trees, including the immense mallorn trees. The Company spend the
afternoon here. Frodo is once again caught up in the beauty of Lorien:

"It seemed to him that he had stepped through a high window that looked
on a vanished world. A light was upon it for which his language had no
name." The shapes and colours are at once fresh and ancient and
mysterious. "On the land of Lorien there was no stain."

Sam, too, is taken aback by the beauty of Lorien: "I feel as if I was
_inside_ a song, if you take my meaning."

Haldir takes pleasure in their reaction, and invites them to climb Cerin
Amroth with him. Frodo experiences yet more wondrous feelings as he
climbs the fair hill:

"Frodo felt that he was in a timeless land that did not fade or change
or fall into forgetfulness. When he had gone and passed again into the
outer world, still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there,
upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlorien. [...] the
South wind blew upon Cerin Amroth and sighed among the branches. Frodo
stood still, hearing far off great seas upon beaches that had long ago
been washed away and sea-birds crying whose race had perished from the
earth."

[16]

Frodo eventually emerges on the lofty platform on top of the tallest
tree on top of the mound. From there, he is told by Haldir to look first
southwards at their destination, the tree-city of the Galadhrim. Then he
looks eastwards across the Great River, seeing the grey world outside
Lorien, and the heights of Southern Mirkwood, clad in dark fir trees.
[17]

As Frodo descends from Cerin Amroth, he discovers Aragorn standing, lost
in happy memory and holding a bloom of elanor. Frodo sees things as they
once were, and sees Aragorn clothed in white, a young lord tall and
fair. Aragorn speaks words in the Elvish tongue to an unseen person:
"Arwen vanimelda, namarie!" Aragorn returns out of memory and declares
to Frodo: "Here is the heart of Elvendom on earth, and here my heart
dwells ever, unless there be a light beyond the dark roads that we still
must tread, you and I. Come with me!" Aragorn and Frodo leave Cerin
Amroth, never to return.
[18]

Comments and thoughts
=====================

A) Comments referenced to text

[1] As the Fellowship recover in Dimrill Dale, Aragorn's words ('Alas
that I spoke true!') reveal that his prophecy of danger to Gandalf was
unwitting.

[2] Aragorn holds up his sword in farewell to Gandalf - a mark of
respect that is alien to a non-sword using culture, though there are
doubtless analogs.

[3] The 'we must do without hope' comment by Aragorn is strange. Doesn't
that run counter to Tolkien/Gandalf's whole philosophy of trusting to a
Greater Power to help out as long as you do the 'right' thing?

[4] It is revealed that Dimrill Dale is an important part of the
dwarf-kingdom, and that the kingdom was not just restricted to Moria.
Doubtless wood was needed for fuel for forges, and food had to be grown.

[5] There are several references to ancient monuments in Dimrill Dale,
including the ancient road. There are also green mounds. Are these
burial mounds? And how old is Durin's Stone? It must be truly ancient if
it was erected in the time of Durin I.

[6] There is an extensive description of Mirrormere and what Frodo and
Gimli see in it. Can anyone explain the geology of Mirrormere, and how
the lake's surface can be so still? The description of the colour as
'profound blue' is just lovely.

[7] And how on Middle-earth can this star-effect happen when looking
into Mirrormere? It certainly leaves Sam lost for words, and explains
the description in Gimli's song in the halls of Moria. Also, was anyone
else reminded of Balin's death when Gimli and Frodo peer into
Mirrormere?

[8] The journey through Dimrill Dale and down the Silverlode to Lorien
has an added urgency due to swift onset of night (and pursuit by the
orcs): as the Sun sinks behind the Misty Mountains, Dimrill Dale (which
is already deep in these shadows) gets dark very quickly.

[9] This is the first of three references to Gollum, though he is not
named in this chapter.

[10] When Gimli and Frodo talk as they fall behind on the journey to
Lorien, there are references to the night-wind and to the night-speech
of plant and stone? What does this mean?

[11] What do you think of Legolas's song of Nimrodel? Both the story in
the song and the prose story that followed it? And what do you think of
the quality of the poetry?

[12] The difficulty in languages (between Frodo and Haldir) brings home
how insular and withdrawn the folk of Lorien are. Compare this to the
Dwarves who probably all spoke Westron and traded widely.

[13] The history of the Elves and Dwarves, and the ban of dwarves from
Lorien, is a major talking point in this chapter and the next. Plus
there is more interaction between Legolas and Gimli, foreshadowing their
friendship.

[14] Haldir's comments on the various Elf-havens, the growing Shadow,
the talk of departing, and the sea, and a lack of reports of mallorns
growing beyond the Western Sea, are all interesting insights into Elvish
thoughts.

[15] Frodo's reactions to entering Lorien are recorded with some of the
most beautiful writing in LotR. I can do no better than quote Tolkien's
own words. I almost hesitate to bring up so mundane a point as the
blindfolding, which enhances Frodo's senses, but maybe there is some
effect of the Ring/Morgul wound also at work here?

[16] Yet more great writing. The 'great seas' and 'sea-birds' that Frodo
hears from the South Wind upon Cerin Amroth is exactly like the
description of the South Wind in the lament for Boromir.

[17] The contrast between the land of Lorien and the darkness of
Southern Mirkwood will be expanded upon and explained in the next
chapter.

[18] What is the translation of Aragorn's comment when he is standing on
Cerin Amroth: 'Arwen vanimelda, namarie!"? As a final coda to this
chapter, this is the perfect point to read the relevant parts (in
Lorien) of 'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' (Appendix A - LotR). And then
the tales of Beren and Luthien ('The Silmarillion' and 'The Biography').

B) General comments

The geography and appearance of the land and trees is extensively
described in this chapter, and with some beautiful writing (though some
find it dull).

The character of Legolas is now being developed _much_ more. In a
similar way to how we learnt more of Gimli, and the Dwarvish culture in
Moria, we now begin to learn of the culture of the wood-dwelling Silvan
Elves, and more about the personality and character of Legolas.

Gimli's character is also being developed as well. His pride in his
heritage and his feelings of justice and fairness are clearly seen.

We see very little of the reactions of the others to their entry to the
land of Lorien. Only the reactions of Sam, Frodo and Aragorn are
recorded, though we do hear Boromir's misgivings.

There are deeper feeling of Faerie here than anywhere else in LotR. As
we crossed the Silverlode and entered deep into the Naith of Lorien,
arriving at the fair hill of Cerin Amroth, we truly entered the realm of
Faerie. Although this will be developed further in the following
chapters, this first encounter is truly magical.

Christopher
--
---
Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard

Sam's reaction to Lorien:

"It's sunlight and bright day, right enough. I thought that Elves were
all for moon and stars: but this is more elvish than anything I ever
heard tell of. I feel as if I was _inside_ a song, if you take my
meaning."

[AC]

On Mon, 24 May 2004 03:18:32 GMT,

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
Book 2, Chapter 6: Lothlorien
To read previous Chapter of the Week discussions, or to sign up to
introduce a future chapter, go to http://parasha.maoltuile.org

<snip excellent summary>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[3] The 'we must do without hope' comment by Aragorn is strange. Doesn't
that run counter to Tolkien/Gandalf's whole philosophy of trusting to a
Greater Power to help out as long as you do the 'right' thing?

It may run counter to Gandalf's general philosophy, but I imagine I would be
saying much the same thing at that point.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[4] It is revealed that Dimrill Dale is an important part of the
dwarf-kingdom, and that the kingdom was not just restricted to Moria.
Doubtless wood was needed for fuel for forges, and food had to be grown.

I've wondered about that, as far as Khazad-dum is concerned. We know that
the Thorin's folk in the Blue Mountains, and his forefathers in Erebor
traded for food. A massive city like Khazad-dum must have required a lot of
food.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[13] The history of the Elves and Dwarves, and the ban of dwarves from
Lorien, is a major talking point in this chapter and the next. Plus
there is more interaction between Legolas and Gimli, foreshadowing their
friendship.

It seems very odd to me that Galadriel, a Noldo who obviously had some
understanding and appreciation of Dwarves would have let this silly law
stand.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
We see very little of the reactions of the others to their entry to the
land of Lorien. Only the reactions of Sam, Frodo and Aragorn are
recorded, though we do hear Boromir's misgivings.

I find Aragorn's response the most touching. I suppose that's because after
many rereadings the poignancy of that visit to Lorien is well known to me
now.

[Michelle J. Haines]

Post by AC
It seems very odd to me that Galadriel, a Noldo who obviously had some
understanding and appreciation of Dwarves would have let this silly law
stand.

Yes, but Celeborn has a very strong enmity for the Dwarves, as is
indicated someplace that Galadriel passed through Khazad-dum on a
trip, while he refused to step foot into the place, and they were
therefore separated for a while. I forget exactly where the
reference is. Can someone provide one? While Celeborn often seems
but a backdrop to his powerful wife, it's likely on this issue he
simply refused to budge.

Michelle
Flutist

[Michael Cole]

Post by Michelle J. Haines

Post by AC
It seems very odd to me that Galadriel, a Noldo who obviously had
some understanding and appreciation of Dwarves would have let this
silly law stand.

Yes, but Celeborn has a very strong enmity for the Dwarves, as is
indicated someplace that Galadriel passed through Khazad-dum on a
trip, while he refused to step foot into the place, and they were
therefore separated for a while. I forget exactly where the
reference is.

IDHTBIFOM, but when they left Eregion. Galadrial went to Lorien - Celeborn
remained behind due to not wanting to go through Moria.

Post by Michelle J. Haines
Can someone provide one? While Celeborn often seems
but a backdrop to his powerful wife, it's likely on this issue he
simply refused to budge.

[Jim Deutch]

Post by AC
On Mon, 24 May 2004 03:18:32 GMT,

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[13] The history of the Elves and Dwarves, and the ban of dwarves from
Lorien, is a major talking point in this chapter and the next. Plus
there is more interaction between Legolas and Gimli, foreshadowing their
friendship.

It seems very odd to me that Galadriel, a Noldo who obviously had some
understanding and appreciation of Dwarves would have let this silly law
stand.

I think it fits well with her style of "rule", which is gentle, wise,
and non-interfering. That law was ancient when Galadriel arrived: she
did not and would not abolish it by decree. After all, preservation
of ancientry was the main power of Galadriels Ring! <g>

Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)

[Stan Brown]

"Christopher Kreuzer" <***@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
rec.arts.books.tolkien:

Thanks, CK! I know you put a lot of work into this.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Legolas says that there are tales of a secret power in
Lorien and Elves still dwell deep in the woods;

This I have never understood. Why should Legolas, son of the King of
Mirkwood, have heard only "tales" of the Elf-kingdom in the next
wood over? Rivendell is far less accessible, yet he didn't seem to
find anything wondrous in traveling there.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Aragorn tells Boromir that there is no other way and
there is only peril for evil people.

And he utters one of my favorite lines: "Perilous indeed, fair and
perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil
with them."

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
They have been challenged by elves of Lorien, guarding the borders of their
land.

A quick bit of comedy that I always like: the Elves telling Sam he
breathes so loud they could shoot him in the dark. By this time he
knows it's not a real threat, but he's embarrassed.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
There is a wonderful description of the beauty of Lorien, a beauty that
makes Frodo catch his breath.

Advice to readers of LotR: Read this bit aloud, or have it read to
you. At least for me, the printed words just didn't convey the
beauty of the scene the way Rob Inglis' reading did. This is
definitely one chapter where reading fast is a handicap!

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[1] As the Fellowship recover in Dimrill Dale, Aragorn's words ('Alas
that I spoke true!') reveal that his prophecy of danger to Gandalf was
unwitting.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Both Gandalf and Aragorn
frequently feel this or that in their heart -- what modern folks
would call a premonition. I don't think Aragorn had uttered a
prophecy before they went into Moria; rather he told Gandalf (in
modern language) "I have a premonition that if you go in there
you'll die in there."

"Alas that I spoke true" -- I interpret this, simply, as "Oh crap --
of all my premonitions, why must _this_ be one that pans out?"

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[3] The 'we must do without hope' comment by Aragorn is strange. Doesn't
that run counter to Tolkien/Gandalf's whole philosophy of trusting to a
Greater Power to help out as long as you do the 'right' thing?

I think there is a subtle difference of emphasis. You must do the
right thing because it is the right thing, but you are not
guaranteed that a Greater Power will intervene. I think
Aragorn's "without hope" means "without promise of help, and without
much probability of succeeding on our own." I think Gandalf meant
much the same when he said later of Frodo's journey that there never
was much hope.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[4] It is revealed that Dimrill Dale is an important part of the
dwarf-kingdom, and that the kingdom was not just restricted to Moria.
Doubtless wood was needed for fuel for forges, and food had to be grown.

We had a similar situation at the west of Moria. The huge holly-
trees marked the border between Eregion of the Elves and Khazad-dum
of the Dwarves. So they did own a little ground surface both east
and west of the gates of Moria.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[6] There is an extensive description of Mirrormere and what Frodo and
Gimli see in it. Can anyone explain the geology of Mirrormere, and how
the lake's surface can be so still? The description of the colour as
'profound blue' is just lovely.

The lake surface is still because it's a calm day. In a valley like
that, open only on one side, there would be fewer breezes than on
flat land.

Even on flat land, I have seen a lake so still that constellations
could be recognized in reflections: Little York Lake, a few miles
north of where I live. During an intermission at the Cortland
Repertory theater I strolled by the lake shore, and was shocked
(pleasantly) to see the night sky reflected in the still water. I
_did_ think of the Mirrormere. How much more wonderful to see stars
in a lake during the daytime!

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[7] And how on Middle-earth can this star-effect happen when looking
into Mirrormere? It certainly leaves Sam lost for words, and explains
the description in Gimli's song in the halls of Moria. Also, was anyone
else reminded of Balin's death when Gimli and Frodo peer into
Mirrormere?

I hear that if you stand at the bottom of a narrow shaft like a tall
chimney, you can see stars even on a sunny day. Either the
surrounding mountains were tall enough and close enough to show this
effect (unlikely), or this was some sort of vision granted only to
select individuals.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[12] The difficulty in languages (between Frodo and Haldir) brings home
how insular and withdrawn the folk of Lorien are. Compare this to the
Dwarves who probably all spoke Westron and traded widely.

I think the Elves of Lórien have reacted to the outside world in the
same way as the Men of Rohan: deliberately turned their backs.
Therefore most speak only their own language as a matter of policy.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[14] Haldir's comments on the various Elf-havens, the growing Shadow,
the talk of departing, and the sea, and a lack of reports of mallorns
growing beyond the Western Sea, are all interesting insights into Elvish
thoughts.

Relating to another thread, how _would_ they know whether mellyrn
grew in the Undying Lands? Galadriel might have told them, I
suppose, but her information would be 6000 years out of date.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[15] Frodo's reactions to entering Lorien are recorded with some of the
most beautiful writing in LotR. I can do no better than quote Tolkien's
own words. I almost hesitate to bring up so mundane a point as the
blindfolding, which enhances Frodo's senses, but maybe there is some
effect of the Ring/Morgul wound also at work here?

Possible, or maybe Frodo is just attuned to Elvish things, so to
speak, through his long association with Bilbo and Gandalf and his
own study.

I agree with you about the beauty of the writing.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[18] What is the translation of Aragorn's comment when he is standing on
Cerin Amroth: 'Arwen vanimelda, namarie!"?

"Namarie" of course is "farewell".

There's nothing in the word list in Silm beginning with "van". I
believe "vanimelda" is related to "beautiful" -- a superlative
perhaps? In Letter #230, Tolkien translates Treebeard's greeting to
Celeborn and Galadriel: "A vanimar, vanimálion nostari!" = "O
beautiful ones, parents of beautiful children."

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
There are deeper feeling of Faerie here than anywhere else in LotR. As
we crossed the Silverlode and entered deep into the Naith of Lorien,
arriving at the fair hill of Cerin Amroth, we truly entered the realm of
Faerie. Although this will be developed further in the following
chapters, this first encounter is truly magical.

Yes. The interlude in Lórien doesn't advance the main line of the
story very much, but it adds so much to the _feeling_ and (as you
say) to the character development. I tended to find it dull
initially, I think because I tried to read too fast and wanted to
rush on to where "things happen" again.

[TeaLady (Mari C.)]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[6] There is an extensive description of Mirrormere and what
Frodo and Gimli see in it. Can anyone explain the geology of
Mirrormere, and how the lake's surface can be so still? The
description of the colour as 'profound blue' is just lovely.

The lake surface is still because it's a calm day. In a
valley like that, open only on one side, there would be
fewer breezes than on flat land.
Even on flat land, I have seen a lake so still that
constellations could be recognized in reflections: Little
York Lake, a few miles north of where I live. During an
intermission at the Cortland Repertory theater I strolled by
the lake shore, and was shocked (pleasantly) to see the
night sky reflected in the still water. I _did_ think of the
Mirrormere. How much more wonderful to see stars in a lake
during the daytime!

Lake Tahoe in Nevada, USA, is an extremely still lake. Mark
Twain had much to say about the clarity and relfective qualities
of Tahoe. There are lakes similar in Canada, as well. Glacial
melt origianlly, I think, and snow melt now, keep the levels up,
and almost no current to speak of exists - they are,
essentially, a very large self contained bowl of water. I
forget the exact term, mayhaps I shall look for it tomorrow, but
you can, I am sure, sometimes see the stars reflected in a
perfectly still high mountain lake during the day.

There are probably quite a few such "pools" of water in Europe,
as well.

[Jim Deutch]

On 25 May 2004 03:11:42 GMT, "TeaLady (Mari C.)"

Post by TeaLady (Mari C.)
essentially, a very large self contained bowl of water. I
forget the exact term, mayhaps I shall look for it tomorrow, but
you can, I am sure, sometimes see the stars reflected in a
perfectly still high mountain lake during the day.

Nonsense! [1] If you can't see any stars by looking up with your bare
eyes, you can't see any by pointing a telescope towards the sky and
you can't see any by looking at a reflection of the sky.

The reason you can't see stars during the day is because the sky is
brighter than the stars are.

[1] Caveat: near dusk, when stars are _barely_ not visible, they may
be visible in reflections (from water or other smooth non-conducting
surfaces) but not by direct view, because the light from the sky
(especially that from the sky overhead when the sun is just below the
horizon) is polarized, and a reflection from the proper angle can be
polarized the other way, making the reflected sky much darker than the
direct view: the star's light is not polarized, so is not diminished,
and this can be just enough to make the difference between seeing and
not seeing the star.

I see Dirk has also mentioned this.

Caveat 2: you _can_ see Venus during the day, when it is near its
brightest, and of course the moon.

Jim Deutch (Jimbo the ex-physics major)

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by TeaLady (Mari C.)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[6] There is an extensive description of Mirrormere and what
Frodo and Gimli see in it. Can anyone explain the geology of
Mirrormere, and how the lake's surface can be so still? The
description of the colour as 'profound blue' is just lovely.

Lake Tahoe in Nevada, USA, is an extremely still lake. Mark
Twain had much to say about the clarity and relfective qualities
of Tahoe. There are lakes similar in Canada, as well. Glacial
melt originally, I think, and snow melt now, keep the levels up,
and almost no current to speak of exists - they are,
essentially, a very large self contained bowl of water.

Which is probably what Mirrormere is, especially as it is presumably fed
only by the water coming down the Dimrill Stair, which could be
meltwater. And the Silverlode rises from a spring further south, so
there appears to be no southwards flow outwards from Mirromere (unless
the flow is underground).

I believe another example of a snowmelt lake is Crater Lake in Oregon.

http://www.nps.gov/crla/

This site has some nice pictures:

http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/crater_lake.html

Christopher

[TeaLady (Mari C.)]

"Christopher Kreuzer" <***@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in news:kQutc.4655$***@news-text.cableinet.net:
(snipped earlier contributions)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Which is probably what Mirrormere is, especially as it is
presumably fed only by the water coming down the Dimrill
Stair, which could be meltwater. And the Silverlode rises
from a spring further south, so there appears to be no
southwards flow outwards from Mirromere (unless the flow is
underground).
I believe another example of a snowmelt lake is Crater Lake
in Oregon.
http://www.nps.gov/crla/
http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america
/crater_lake.html

Yes - a really beautiful place, IMO.

Pictures like these are the reason why, in the corners of my
mind, the idea still lurks that you could see stars reflected in
high elevation, still water, lakes.

I still would like to think that on clear days, in late evening
or early morning, you could see some of the brighter stars in
the waters. After all, the stars are there, just obscured by
the refraction of the sun's light in the atmosphere - a
brightness that outshines the light we receive from the more
distant stars. This is a notion marked by a stubborness that no
amount of knowing otherwise will erase. The brain knows better,
but the mental image/vision still shows those stars reflecting
back at me. And that image (and similar strong notions, right
or wrong, I am sure) will over-ride my knowledge at least 4 out
of times. And usually in public.

[Jim Deutch]

On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:07:26 -0400, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown
I hear that if you stand at the bottom of a narrow shaft like a tall
chimney, you can see stars even on a sunny day. Either the

You hear wrong. It's a not-uncommon trope (if that's the right word):
Tolkien himself uses it in LotR (but I'm wracking my brains for the
reference -- maybe it's actually in Silm or UT?)

Post by Stan Brown
Relating to another thread, how _would_ they know whether mellyrn
grew in the Undying Lands? Galadriel might have told them, I
suppose, but her information would be 6000 years out of date.

I could swear it states in Silm that _every_ species of ME can be
found in Valinor. (grain of salt time, here, but I'm pretty sure
that's what it says... )

Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Jim Deutch
On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:07:26 -0400, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown
I hear that if you stand at the bottom of a narrow shaft like a tall
chimney, you can see stars even on a sunny day. Either the

Tolkien himself uses it in LotR (but I'm wracking my brains for the
reference -- maybe it's actually in Silm or UT?)

I was wracking my brains as well, but couldn't think of anything. Maybe
you are thinking of Sam's star in Mordor, which he sees at evening?

Christopher

[s***@nomail.com]

In rec.arts.books.tolkien Christopher Kreuzer <***@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
: Jim Deutch <***@compuserve.com> wrote:
:> On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:07:26 -0400, Stan Brown
:> <***@fastmail.fm> wrote:
:>
:>> I hear that if you stand at the bottom of a narrow shaft like a tall
:>> chimney, you can see stars even on a sunny day. Either the
:>
:> You hear wrong. It's a not-uncommon trope (if that's the right word):
:> Tolkien himself uses it in LotR (but I'm wracking my brains for the
:> reference -- maybe it's actually in Silm or UT?)

: I was wracking my brains as well, but couldn't think of anything. Maybe
: you are thinking of Sam's star in Mordor, which he sees at evening?

: Christopher

It is used in the LOTR in "The Passing of the Grey Company"
"So deep and narrow was that chasm that the sky was dark, and in
it small stars glinted. Yet as Gimli after learned it was still
two hours ere sunset of the day on which they had set out from
Dunharrow;"

It also shows up in "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin"
"Too high were those mighty walls for the winter sun to overlook,
and though it was now full morning faint stairs glimmered above
the mountain-tops"

Stephen

[Troels Forchhammer]

<snip>

Post by Stan Brown
This I have never understood. Why should Legolas, son of the King of
Mirkwood, have heard only "tales" of the Elf-kingdom in the next
wood over? Rivendell is far less accessible, yet he didn't seem to
find anything wondrous in traveling there.

Yes it is rather curious, isn't it?
Not so much, I think, that he didn't seem as impressed by Rivendell -
while he was (in part at least) of Sindarin descent himself, his
background was apparently strongly Silvan, and he would naturally feel
more enchanted by Lórien than by Rivendell, but the sundering of the
Silvan kins is puzzling ("Even our own kindren in the North are sundered
from us"). My only guess would be that the journey in the shadow of Dol
Guldur was too perilous for regular travelling between the two realms
(though I'm not sure why that would apply to journeying west of the
river).

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Aragorn tells Boromir that there is no other way and
there is only peril for evil people.

And he utters one of my favorite lines: "Perilous indeed, fair and
perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil
with them."

Rephrased later by Sam to Faramir, and though Sam says that "It ought to
be sung. You'd have to get Strider, Aragorn that is, or old Mr. Bilbo,
for that." I think that he does extremely well with his "You, you could
dash yourself to pieces on her, like a ship on a rock ..." Sam has a way
to find, even as he seems to be groping about for them haltingly, the
right words ;-)

I don't, however, think that 'those who bring some evil with them'
necessarily is restricted to people we would see as 'evil' as such.
Boromir was not, IMO, 'evil', but he did bring an evil with him; his own
pride.

<snip>

Post by Stan Brown
I don't think Aragorn had uttered a prophecy before they went into
Moria;

I assume that you mean in this particular case: he definitely had uttered
a prophecy before, as described in appendix A ("Then suddenly the
foresight of his kindred cam to him, ...")

I am not, however, sure of the differences in Tolkien's world: Malbeth
the Seer's words were surely a prophecy, as was probably Glorfindel's
words about the Witch-king, but in the latter case this might be
postrationalisation: how did Glorfindel's statement differ from Gandalf's
sudden realisation that Bilbo /had/ to go with Thorin, or Aragorn's
statement that Gandalf were in danger by entering Moria?

The point is, I think, that characters such as Gandalf, Aragorn and
others get these - shall we call them 'prophetic premonitions':
premonitions that do not derive from the past, so to speak, but are true
revelations of the future, though as a feeling rather than as words.

<snip>

Post by Stan Brown
Even on flat land, I have seen a lake so still that constellations

Nice story - thanks!

Post by Stan Brown
There's nothing in the word list in Silm beginning with "van". I
believe "vanimelda" is related to "beautiful" -- a superlative
perhaps?

Possibly a contraction of "vanya", 'beautiful' and "melda", 'beloved' or
'dear' (adjective). The superlative would be "anvanya".

Though I see now that Dick has checked the Ardalambion site and found
another explanation there - I think that Helge's Quenya is to be trusted
over mine any day ;-) (I'm just going by his Quenya course, which I never
got around to finish).

<snip>

--
Troels Forchhammer

A Thaum is the basic unit of magical strength. It has been universally
established as the amount of magic needed to create one small white
pigeon or three normal sized billiard balls.
- (Terry Pratchett, The Light Fantastic)

[Stan Brown]

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Stan Brown
And he utters one of my favorite lines: "Perilous indeed, fair and
perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil
with them."

Rephrased later by Sam to Faramir, and though Sam says that "It ought to
be sung. You'd have to get Strider, Aragorn that is, or old Mr. Bilbo,
for that." I think that he does extremely well with his "You, you could
dash yourself to pieces on her, like a ship on a rock ..." Sam has a way
to find, even as he seems to be groping about for them haltingly, the
right words ;-)

I had forgotten about that "echo". It's a minor (and delightful)
motifs of LotR that we keep seeing evidence of Sam _not_ being just
the country bumpkin he sees in himself. He recites poetry, he even
composes it, and he really does show himself to be a deep thinker
from time to time.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
I don't, however, think that 'those who bring some evil with them'
necessarily is restricted to people we would see as 'evil' as such.
Boromir was not, IMO, 'evil', but he did bring an evil with him; his own
pride.

That's how I look at it also.

[Glenn Holliday]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[7] And how on Middle-earth can this star-effect happen when looking
into Mirrormere? It certainly leaves Sam lost for words, and explains
the description in Gimli's song in the halls of Moria. Also, was anyone
else reminded of Balin's death when Gimli and Frodo peer into
Mirrormere?

I hear that if you stand at the bottom of a narrow shaft like a tall
chimney, you can see stars even on a sunny day.

That suggestion has been tested experimentally (see, for example,
the very good basic astronomy reference "Nightwatch") and it
doesn't work. Bright stars can be seen in daytime if their light
is amplified enough, and then the color of the sky filtered
enough to reduce the contrast between skylight and starlight.
Surveyors use instruments to sight Polaris in the daytime,
which gives them a reference closer to true North than a compass.

But the Fellowship has no such instruments. So this is a
non-physical effect.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[7] And how on Middle-earth can this star-effect happen when looking
into Mirrormere? It certainly leaves Sam lost for words, and explains
the description in Gimli's song in the halls of Moria. Also, was anyone
else reminded of Balin's death when Gimli and Frodo peer into
Mirrormere?

Actually, Christopher Kreuzer wrote that bit.

While there's no harm done this time, please be careful with
attributions in future. Too often I have been portrayed as saying
the opposite of what I actually believe, by people cutting out
attributions in quoted material.

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[7] And how on Middle-earth can this star-effect happen when looking
into Mirrormere? It certainly leaves Sam lost for words, and explains
the description in Gimli's song in the halls of Moria. Also, was anyone
else reminded of Balin's death when Gimli and Frodo peer into
Mirrormere?

Actually, Christopher Kreuzer wrote that bit.
While there's no harm done this time, please be careful with
attributions in future.

Stan, from the above snippet its obvious that you didn't write it.
Look at the number of >'s. Everything with >>> (and of course
with >, because I am quoting you) is from you. So everything with >>> >
must be by someone else, and since you're answering it, it's obviously
not from you.

I also usually only keep three or four attributions, with the silent
understanding that if I am still quoting deeper nested text, it is
only for the sake of context, and I am not attributing it to anyone.

I think that's what Glenn did as well.

And those following the discussion usually have at least some idea
about which parts belong to whom.

Post by Stan Brown
Too often I have been portrayed as saying the opposite of what I
actually believe, by people cutting out attributions in quoted
material.

I'd say most people here are careful enough not to fall intro this
trap :-)

- Dirk

[Stan Brown]

Post by Dirk Thierbach
Stan, from the above snippet its obvious that you didn't write it.
Look at the number of >'s.

It _would_ be obvious, except that way too many people have broken
newsreaders *cough*AOL*cough* that screw up the ">" preceding
quotes.

It's particularly bad when the _only_ attribution for a quote is the
wrong one.

As I said, there was no harm done this time, but I've been misquoted
too often where it does matter and I would appreciate your not
putting my name to other people's words. "Courtesy to living
authors", as JRRT said.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Stan Brown

Stan, from the above snippet it's obvious that you didn't write it.
Look at the number of >'s.

I'm with Stan on this one. It is confusing to have to count >> thingys.
I tend to leave all attribution lines in, and even do a bit of tidying
up to make things clear. But then I correct people's spelling as well,
so there is no hope of curing me of terminal pedantry...

[I stuck an extra apostrophe in your sentence, Dirk]

One thing that always confuses me is the fact that, for example, when
you have attribution lines A and B at the top of a post, you can
sometimes have the first example of quoted text being from person A.
However the arrangement of the text can imply that this might be person
B speaking.

e.g. (replacing > with : to avoid confusion)

[/start]

Person A wrote:
: Person B wrote:

: I don't like person B

Neither do I.

:: I don't like person A

He's OK.

[/end]

Or...

[/start]

Person A wrote:
: I don't like person B

Neither do I.

: Person B wrote:
:: I don't like person A

He's OK.

[/end]

I think the second way of quoting and commenting on text is clearer when
the quote order is not normal. It does require a bit of editing and
cutting and pasting though...

Post by Stan Brown
As I said, there was no harm done this time, but I've been misquoted
too often where it does matter and I would appreciate you not
putting my name to other people's words. "Courtesy to living
authors", as JRRT said.

Isn't he dead now? :-)

[I removed an 'r' from your sentence, Stan. Is that misquoting you?]

Christopher

[Stan Brown]

"Christopher Kreuzer" <***@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
(quoting me, more or less)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

I would appreciate you not putting my name to other people's words.

[I removed an 'r' from your sentence, Stan. Is that misquoting you?]

Well, it's changing a correct sentence to an incorrect one. I don't
know whether "misquoting" is the mot juste; perhaps "dysquoting"?

"... appreciate your not quoting ..." was correct as I wrote it:
possessive adjective + negative + gerund. Your change was, I'm
afraid, not correct.

See Fowler's article "fused participle" in the second edition of
/Modern English Usage/.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Stan Brown
(quoting me, more or less)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

I would appreciate you not putting my name to other people's words.

[I removed an 'r' from your sentence, Stan. Is that misquoting you?]

Well, it's changing a correct sentence to an incorrect one. I don't
know whether "misquoting" is the mot juste; perhaps "dysquoting"?

Oops! Sorry. :-)

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Stan Brown
Thanks, CK! I know you put a lot of work into this.

Thanks. It was (literally) a pleasure!

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Legolas says that there are tales of a secret power in
Lorien and Elves still dwell deep in the woods;

This I have never understood. Why should Legolas, son of the King of
Mirkwood, have heard only "tales" of the Elf-kingdom in the next
wood over? Rivendell is far less accessible, yet he didn't seem to
find anything wondrous in traveling there.

We are told by Celeborn in the next chapter:

"Welcome son of Thranduil! Too seldom do my kindred journey hither from
the North."

I'd agree with what others have said about Dol Guldur lying inbetween,
and also that it is in fact a heck of a long way. Rivendell is far
closer to Thranduil's kingdom (which is in the far north of Mirkwood)
than Lorien. It is easy to forget just how big Mirkwood is! "Next wood
over" is a slight underestimate...

<snip>

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[1] As the Fellowship recover in Dimrill Dale, Aragorn's words ('Alas
that I spoke true!') reveal that his prophecy of danger to Gandalf
was unwitting.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Both Gandalf and Aragorn
frequently feel this or that in their heart -- what modern folks
would call a premonition. I don't think Aragorn had uttered a
prophecy before they went into Moria; rather he told Gandalf (in
modern language) "I have a premonition that if you go in there
you'll die in there."
"Alas that I spoke true" -- I interpret this, simply, as "Oh crap --
of all my premonitions, why must _this_ be one that pans out?"

Great way of putting it! Premonition is a much better word. But still
not quite right. There is probably slightly more of the seer's ability
than just a mere premonition.

<snip>

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[7] And how on Middle-earth can this star-effect happen when looking
into Mirrormere? It certainly leaves Sam lost for words, and explains
the description in Gimli's song in the halls of Moria. Also, was
anyone else reminded of Balin's death when Gimli and Frodo peer into
Mirrormere?

I hear that if you stand at the bottom of a narrow shaft like a tall
chimney, you can see stars even on a sunny day. Either the
surrounding mountains were tall enough and close enough to show this
effect (unlikely), or this was some sort of vision granted only to
select individuals.

The "chimney daytime stars" thing is well-known to be a myth:

http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q241.html

<snip>

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[18] What is the translation of Aragorn's comment when he is
standing on Cerin Amroth: 'Arwen vanimelda, namarie!"?

"Namarie" of course is "farewell".
There's nothing in the word list in Silm beginning with "van". I
believe "vanimelda" is related to "beautiful" -- a superlative
perhaps? In Letter #230, Tolkien translates Treebeard's greeting to
Celeborn and Galadriel: "A vanimar, vanimálion nostari!" = "O
beautiful ones, parents of beautiful children."

I'm glad someone mentioned that quote. Another of my favorites!

Christopher

[Stan Brown]

"Christopher Kreuzer" <***@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
(about why Legolas has heard only "tales" of Lórien)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"Welcome son of Thranduil! Too seldom do my kindred journey hither from
the North."
I'd agree with what others have said about Dol Guldur lying inbetween,
and also that it is in fact a heck of a long way. Rivendell is far
closer to Thranduil's kingdom (which is in the far north of Mirkwood)
than Lorien. It is easy to forget just how big Mirkwood is! "Next wood
over" is a slight underestimate...

Well, maybe.

I agree with you to this extent: travel between Thranduil's realm
and Lórien was probably harder than travel between Rivendell and
either. (I agree that I was wrong to say it would be easier.) I just
don't think it was hard enough that there would have been _none_,
only "tales".

In the rest of this article I'll deal with the history and the
geography. But after writing all that, I think maybe the explanation
of there being only "tales" of Lórien in Thranduil's court is not
the difficulty of travel but rather that Lórien just didn't welcome
visitors and didn't send out travelers whereas Elrond did both.

Looking again at the map, I agree that Rivendell is closer by air,
but the Elves could hardly hop a passing Eagle. To get to Rivendell
they had to cross the Mountains, a difficult and dangerous
undertaking. (Did Legolas cross Caradhras on his own, or travel far
north to the High Pass that Gimli and Gloin used? I don't think we
were ever told, but I suspect it was the latter or he would have
been involved in Gandalf and Aragorn's debate.)

Some folks here have said Dol Guldur would cut off communications.
Would it? Looking back at the Tale of Years, I see the discovery of
_some_ power at Dol Guldur around TA 1100, but it's another thousand
years till "2060 --The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that
it may be Sauron taking shape again." And then three years later
"Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur. Sauron retreats and hides in the East."
The Watchful Peace lasts four hundred years, till in 2460 "Sauron
returns with increased strength to Dol Guldur."

Even if the west bank was impassable, it was only five and a half
centuries that Lórien was cut off from Thranduil's people. That's
nothing to the Elves, certainly not enough for Lórien to be reduced
to "tales". Anyway, after Sauron was driven out in 2941, I would
have thought the Silvan Elves would take advantage of that to re-
establish communications. Even though the lines would be broken
again ten years later, the seventy years till the War of the Ring
would hardly be a blink of the eye to Elves.

But even if it wasn't safe to pass by Dol Guldur on the east bank of
Anduin, I should think it was safe on the west bank. Sauron's
minions didn't cross the Anduin until the middle of the War of the
Ring. What was to stop the Elves from traveling along the west bank
and fording the river further north -- or for that matter, traveling
in boats _on_ the river? If it was safe to be on the river south of
Lórien during the War of the Ring, surely it was safe north of
Lórien before the War.

As I said above, I'm coming to the conclusion that Lórien was only
"tales" to Legolas not because the trip was so impossible but
because Lórien discouraged contact with any part of the outside
world. Does that sound about right?

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Stan Brown
As I said above, I'm coming to the conclusion that Lórien was only
"tales" to Legolas not because the trip was so impossible but
because Lórien discouraged contact with any part of the outside
world. Does that sound about right?

Sounds reasonable to me. But then why did Celeborn say "too seldom".
That sounds like an open invitation, or is he saying "too seldom do we
ring up and invite you round"?

Christopher

[Stan Brown]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Stan Brown
As I said above, I'm coming to the conclusion that Lórien was only
"tales" to Legolas not because the trip was so impossible but
because Lórien discouraged contact with any part of the outside
world. Does that sound about right?

Sounds reasonable to me. But then why did Celeborn say "too seldom".
That sounds like an open invitation, or is he saying "too seldom do we
ring up and invite you round"?

Maybe it's a polite nothing, like Dwarves introducing themselves by
saying "Thorin at your service."

[Stan Brown]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q241.html

Cool link; thanks!

(I wish I were able to find some contact information at that site.
Reading about a "caviat" bugged me. :-) Anyway, it's called "Ask the
Astronomer" but I couldn't find any way to ask a question!

[Michelle J. Haines]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Later, as the company journey onwards and night has fallen, Frodo hears
and sees something following them. However, Gimli hears nothing but the
night-speech of plant and stone.
[9] This is the first of three references to Gollum, though he is not
named in this chapter.

I think this is further indication there is some sort of telepathic
connection between Frodo and Gollum. Perhaps this will be
contradicted later.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"As soon as he set foot upon the far bank of the Silverlode a strange
feeling had come upon him, and it deepened as he walked on into the
Naith: it seemed to him that he had stepped over a bridge of time into a
corner of the Elder Days, and was now walking in a world that was no
more. In Rivendell there was memory of ancient things; in Lorien the
ancient things still lived on in the waking world."
[15] Frodo's reactions to entering Lorien are recorded with some of the
most beautiful writing in LotR. I can do no better than quote Tolkien's
own words. I almost hesitate to bring up so mundane a point as the
blindfolding, which enhances Frodo's senses, but maybe there is some
effect of the Ring/Morgul wound also at work here?

I think that may be the case, to some extent. I think, in part, he's
feeling the effects that Galadriel and her Ring have on the land --
it's timelessness -- and perhaps one of the reasons this effect is
more pronounced in Lorien than in Rivendell is that Galadriel is an
Elf who once lived in Valinor. I do think all the Company would feel
it, but that Frodo would have a greater sensitivity, just as he was
(probably) the only one to see her Ring on her hand.

Michelle
Flutist

[gp.skinner]

Post by Michelle J. Haines

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[9] This is the first of three references to Gollum, though he is not
named in this chapter.

I think this is further indication there is some sort of telepathic
connection between Frodo and Gollum. Perhaps this will be
contradicted later.

I don't think it means Frodo and Gollum had a connection telepathically,
rather Gollum was drawn constantly to Frodo with him being the ring bearer.
Frodo develops an 'understanding' of Gollum because of the ring, but I don't
think that understanding is telepathic in any way.

Graeme

[Michelle J. Haines]

In article <***@212.67.96.135>, ***@NOSPAM.talk21.com
says...

Post by gp.skinner

Post by Michelle J. Haines

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[9] This is the first of three references to Gollum, though he is not
named in this chapter.

I think this is further indication there is some sort of telepathic
connection between Frodo and Gollum. Perhaps this will be
contradicted later.

I don't think it means Frodo and Gollum had a connection telepathically,
rather Gollum was drawn constantly to Frodo with him being the ring bearer.
Frodo develops an 'understanding' of Gollum because of the ring, but I don't
think that understanding is telepathic in any way.

I felt like there was something of a further connection between them
in Moria, when he catches a glimpse of Gollum while he's on guard,
but when he lays down to sleep, continues to see and hear and feel
him. Not necessarily a telepathic connection like that of Elrond,
Galadriel, and Gandalf, but some sort of mind-to-mind thread linking
them, as tenuous as it may be. Probably due to their connections to
the Ring.

Michelle
Flutist

[Stan Brown]

Post by Michelle J. Haines
I felt like there was something of a further connection between them
in Moria, when he catches a glimpse of Gollum while he's on guard,
but when he lays down to sleep, continues to see and hear and feel
him. Not necessarily a telepathic connection like that of Elrond,
Galadriel, and Gandalf, but some sort of mind-to-mind thread linking
them, as tenuous as it may be. Probably due to their connections to
the Ring.

You're entitled to your opinion, but Occam's Razor is against you.
Gollum's attraction to the Ring is sufficient to explain everything
we see him do; why bring in an extra postulate?

[Michelle J. Haines]

Post by Stan Brown
You're entitled to your opinion, but Occam's Razor is against you.
Gollum's attraction to the Ring is sufficient to explain everything
we see him do; why bring in an extra postulate?

*sigh*

I did say it felt like TO ME, and I believe that it'll likely be
contradicted later, like during the scene at Mount Doom, when Gollum
sneaks up on them. Although there's also the additional distraction
of those events.

And I find it interesting because it's not just Gollum being
attracted to the Ring, it's Frodo sensing Gollum when other members
of the Company -- even as perceptive as they often are -- don't
notice him.

No one said you had to care about the idea.

Michelle
Flutist

[AC]

On Mon, 24 May 2004 19:41:07 -0600,

Post by Michelle J. Haines
And I find it interesting because it's not just Gollum being
attracted to the Ring, it's Frodo sensing Gollum when other members
of the Company -- even as perceptive as they often are -- don't
notice him.

As I recall, Aragorn later reveals that he noticed him, too.

[Stan Brown]

Post by Michelle J. Haines
And I find it interesting because it's not just Gollum being
attracted to the Ring, it's Frodo sensing Gollum when other members
of the Company -- even as perceptive as they often are -- don't
notice him.

He didn't "sense" him, he heard and saw him. And so did Aragorn, as
he tells Frodo later.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Michelle J. Haines

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[15] Frodo's reactions to entering Lorien are recorded with some of
the most beautiful writing in LotR. I can do no better than quote
Tolkien's own words. I almost hesitate to bring up so mundane a
point as the blindfolding, which enhances Frodo's senses, but maybe
there is some effect of the Ring/Morgul wound also at work here?

I think that may be the case, to some extent. I think, in part, he's
feeling the effects that Galadriel and her Ring have on the land --
it's timelessness -- and perhaps one of the reasons this effect is
more pronounced in Lorien than in Rivendell is that Galadriel is an
Elf who once lived in Valinor.

Oh sure. And not just in part. Without Galadriel and her Ring, Lorien
would be little different from a jaunt through Thranduil's kingdom in
Mirkwood. It really is 'elf magic' at work here, and everyone feels it.

And changing the subject slightly, without the blindfolding, Tolkien
wouldn't get as much of a chance to emphasise the other senses as he
does. So the blindfolding is important for that reason as well, no
matter how weak the story-internal reason might be.

Christopher

[Rhino 7]

On Thu, 27 May 2004 23:38:31 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Oh sure. And not just in part. Without Galadriel and her Ring, Lorien
would be little different from a jaunt through Thranduil's kingdom in
Mirkwood. It really is 'elf magic' at work here, and everyone feels it.
Christopher

If you don't mind a question from a lurker...

Wouldn't the fact that Galadriel spent years as more-or-less a lady in
waiting to Melian have some effect? I always assumed that it was
magic learned from Melian that made Lothlorien have a resemblance
(though much smaller) to the land inside the Girdle of Melian. I'm
sure the ring had its powers, but IMHO Rivendell didn't have that same
elder-days of the world feeling.

Rhino7

[Michelle J. Haines]

In article <***@4ax.com>, laney2
@comfishcast.net says...

Post by Rhino 7
If you don't mind a question from a lurker...
Wouldn't the fact that Galadriel spent years as more-or-less a lady in
waiting to Melian have some effect? I always assumed that it was
magic learned from Melian that made Lothlorien have a resemblance
(though much smaller) to the land inside the Girdle of Melian. I'm
sure the ring had its powers, but IMHO Rivendell didn't have that same
elder-days of the world feeling.

Their Rings had different powers. Also, Galadriel had been born in
Valinor (I think; IDHTBIFOM), and was a Noldo of considerably power.
Melian may have had an influence. Elrond, as impressive as he was,
probably wasn't in her class.

Michelle
Flutist

[AC]

On Thu, 27 May 2004 22:32:42 -0600,

Post by Michelle J. Haines
@comfishcast.net says...

Post by Rhino 7
If you don't mind a question from a lurker...
Wouldn't the fact that Galadriel spent years as more-or-less a lady in
waiting to Melian have some effect? I always assumed that it was
magic learned from Melian that made Lothlorien have a resemblance
(though much smaller) to the land inside the Girdle of Melian. I'm
sure the ring had its powers, but IMHO Rivendell didn't have that same
elder-days of the world feeling.

Their Rings had different powers. Also, Galadriel had been born in
Valinor (I think; IDHTBIFOM), and was a Noldo of considerably power.
Melian may have had an influence. Elrond, as impressive as he was,
probably wasn't in her class.

In later writings Tolkien raised Galadriel to the level of Feanor, making
her among the mightiest of the Eldar.

We shouldn't disparage Elrond too much. After all he did have very high
ancestry, with the mightiest of the Edain, among the mightiest of the Elves
(Luthien) and Melian, of course.

[Michelle J. Haines]

Post by AC

Post by Michelle J. Haines
Elrond, as impressive as he was,
probably wasn't in her class.

We shouldn't disparage Elrond too much.

Well, I don't think it's necessarily disparaging him to say he's not
in Galadriel's class. That's like saying, "Hey, that high school
state track star? He's a great runner. Not in Jackie Joiner-
Kersey's (sp?) class yet, but pretty awesome."

Michelle
Flutist

[Stan Brown]

Post by Rhino 7
If you don't mind a question from a lurker...

If a lurker asks a question, is she still a lurker? :-)

Post by Rhino 7
Wouldn't the fact that Galadriel spent years as more-or-less a lady in
waiting to Melian have some effect? I always assumed that it was
magic learned from Melian that made Lothlorien have a resemblance
(though much smaller) to the land inside the Girdle of Melian. I'm
sure the ring had its powers, but IMHO Rivendell didn't have that same
elder-days of the world feeling.

I think this is an awfully good point. Lorien _was_ different from
Rivendell, yet their rulers both had Rings. Your explanation, that
Galadriel picked up some knowledge from Melian, satisfies me.

[Rhino 7]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Rhino 7
If you don't mind a question from a lurker...

If a lurker asks a question, is she still a lurker? :-)

Probably. But, then, perhaps not. When does a number of chin hairs
become a beard? ;-)

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Rhino 7
Wouldn't the fact that Galadriel spent years as more-or-less a lady in
waiting to Melian have some effect? I always assumed that it was
magic learned from Melian that made Lothlorien have a resemblance
(though much smaller) to the land inside the Girdle of Melian. I'm
sure the ring had its powers, but IMHO Rivendell didn't have that same
elder-days of the world feeling.

I think this is an awfully good point. Lorien _was_ different from
Rivendell, yet their rulers both had Rings. Your explanation, that
Galadriel picked up some knowledge from Melian, satisfies me.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com

Too kind.

Rhino7

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Rhino 7
Wouldn't the fact that Galadriel spent years as more-or-less a lady in
waiting to Melian have some effect? I always assumed that it was
magic learned from Melian that made Lothlorien have a resemblance
(though much smaller) to the land inside the Girdle of Melian. I'm
sure the ring had its powers, but IMHO Rivendell didn't have that same
elder-days of the world feeling.

I really like that idea. It is also a point that is worth bringing up
when people say that Celeborn is a bit useless. I see Celeborn and
Galadriel as Tolkien partly reworking the Thingol and Melian theme from
'The Silmarillion', so linking Galadriel with Melian and Celeborn with
Thingol makes sense. And Galadriel's grand-daughter re-enacts the
Luthien theme...

Going even futher back, there is the fact that Melian learnt her craft
in the gardens of Lorien (the Vala named Namo - I think) in Aman. So
Lorien is also meant to be an echo of this as well, I believe, and this
is also implied in the songs we hear from Galadriel in the next few
chapters.

Christopher

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Rhino 7
Wouldn't the fact that Galadriel spent years as more-or-less a lady in
waiting to Melian have some effect? I always assumed that it was
magic learned from Melian that made Lothlorien have a resemblance
(though much smaller) to the land inside the Girdle of Melian.

Something I forgot to mention, and which is relevant here, is that this
similarity to Melian (although undoubtedly intended at the time of
writing) was inserted into 'The Silmarillion' after writing LotR.
Galadriel does not appear in the original versions of 'The
Silmarillion'. At least that is what I have heard others say, though I
haven't read the relevant bits of HoME myself, so I may be getting this
totally wrong. If it is right, it makes an unassailable case for this
similarity being Tolkien's conscious intention, rather than an
unconscious reuse of similar ideas.

Christopher

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[3] The 'we must do without hope' comment by Aragorn is strange. Doesn't
that run counter to Tolkien/Gandalf's whole philosophy of trusting to a
Greater Power to help out as long as you do the 'right' thing?

Stan has explained this better than I could. I would only like to
add that it is also just an rhetorical "flourish" -- turn the subject
around in an unexpected way.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[6] There is an extensive description of Mirrormere and what Frodo and
Gimli see in it. Can anyone explain the geology of Mirrormere, and how
the lake's surface can be so still?

It's protected from the wind by the form of the valley, and also,
being high in the mountains, there are no other vibrations to disturb
the surface.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
The description of the colour as 'profound blue' is just lovely.

The color of mountain lakes (esp. deeper ones) is often a very dark
blue.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[7] And how on Middle-earth can this star-effect happen when looking
into Mirrormere?

I don't know for sure. If for some reason the sun-light from a low sun
is filtered out, you would see the stars. IIRC polarization of the low
sun is quite strong for some reason in the mountains. (Thinner air?
Less dust?), so this could play a role.

We know that Tolkien went hiking in the Alps, so maybe he has actually
seen an effect like this somewhere.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[10] When Gimli and Frodo talk as they fall behind on the journey to
Lorien, there are references to the night-wind and to the night-speech
of plant and stone? What does this mean?

Just a fairy-tale like reference, IMHO.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[18] What is the translation of Aragorn's comment when he is standing on
Cerin Amroth: 'Arwen vanimelda, namarie!"?

'Vanima' means 'beautiful'. Material from the Ardalambion site says
that the first edition had 'vanim_a_lda', and explains -lda as variant
of -lya, so literally 'Arwen your beauty, farewell'. However, in the
second edition, with the vowel changed, "Tolkien may have decided to
re-interpret the phrase as *'Arwen, beautiful Elf (Elda)'". Also note
the name 'Tar-Vanimelde' in Appendix A.

In any case, it means something like "Beautiful Arwen, farewell!".

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
The character of Legolas is now being developed _much_ more. In a
similar way to how we learnt more of Gimli, and the Dwarvish culture in
Moria, we now begin to learn of the culture of the wood-dwelling Silvan
Elves, and more about the personality and character of Legolas.

Yes. I never noticed the setting in which the characters were developed.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
There are deeper feeling of Faerie here than anywhere else in LotR.

Yes, certainly. "Meeting the elven-queen" is probably a very central
theme of Faerie, and an important one for Tolkien as well. It also
shows up in the "Smith of Wooton Major".

- Dirk

[Christopher Kreuzer]

<snip>

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[7] And how on Middle-earth can this star-effect happen when looking
into Mirrormere?

I don't know for sure. If for some reason the sun-light from a low sun
is filtered out, you would see the stars. IIRC polarization of the low
sun is quite strong for some reason in the mountains. (Thinner air?
Less dust?), so this could play a role.

The only explanation I have been able to come up with is to invoke
optical effects with sunlight. There are many such phenomenon, such as
sun halos and sun dogs (these involve high ice clouds in the atmosphere
refracting sunlight). Also, the description of the mountains crowding
around ("encircling") seems to be more than just the natural shape of
the mountains circling Dimrill Dale. Possibly there is some sort of
mirage/fish-eye lens effect happening here. This might also, in some
way, lead to reflected sparkles of light in the sky or maybe only in the
water, giving the appearance of stars.

Post by Dirk Thierbach
We know that Tolkien went hiking in the Alps, so maybe he has actually
seen an effect like this somewhere.

Possibly. He would almost definitely have seen mountain waterfalls and
deep blue lakes, and mountains reflected in lakes. But I think the star
effect he just made up as a nice "fairy-tale" touch.

<snip>

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[18] What is the translation of Aragorn's comment when he is
standing on Cerin Amroth: 'Arwen vanimelda, namarie!"?

'Vanima' means 'beautiful'. Material from the Ardalambion site says
that the first edition had 'vanim_a_lda', and explains -lda as variant
of -lya, so literally 'Arwen your beauty, farewell'. However, in the
second edition, with the vowel changed, "Tolkien may have decided to
re-interpret the phrase as *'Arwen, beautiful Elf (Elda)'". Also note
the name 'Tar-Vanimelde' in Appendix A.
In any case, it means something like "Beautiful Arwen, farewell!".

Thanks! That has explained a lot for me.

<snip>

Post by Dirk Thierbach

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
There are deeper feeling of Faerie here than anywhere else in LotR.

Yes, certainly. "Meeting the elven-queen" is probably a very central
theme of Faerie, and an important one for Tolkien as well. It also
shows up in the "Smith of Wooton Major".

IMO, that is a rather strange story. But I see the similarities.

Christopher

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Dirk Thierbach
Yes, certainly. "Meeting the elven-queen" is probably a very central
theme of Faerie, and an important one for Tolkien as well. It also
shows up in the "Smith of Wooton Major".

IMO, that is a rather strange story. But I see the similarities.

It is also reflected in the attitude of Sam towards the Elves in the
first book. For some reason, this subject also seems to strike a chord
somehwere deep in me. Somebody (I forgot who) has expressed this "we
feel with Tolkien when we read it" recently much better than I can.

- Dirk

[Count Menelvagor]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
Book 2, Chapter 6: Lothlorien

<snip>

The writing in this chapter is indeed beautiful.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Sam, too, is taken aback by the beauty of Lorien: "I feel as if I was
_inside_ a song, if you take my meaning."

I *love* this line. And it wonderfully foreshadows the conversation
Frodo and Sam have in Cirith Ungol, when thye step outside of
themselves and see themselves as characters in a story. Tolkien seems
fascinated with the question what it would be like to be *part of a
narrative*. Though of course, there's far more to it than that.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[10] When Gimli and Frodo talk as they fall behind on the journey to
Lorien, there are references to the night-wind and to the night-speech
of plant and stone? What does this mean?

I'm not sure. It could just be a poetic figure of speech (I don't
recall the passage exactly, or have TBIFOM); but I think it's related
to one of the characteristics of the "mythical" world: the sense that
nature was mcuh more aware than it is (or than we think of it as
being) today. This "awareness" is already rare and fading away in the
Third Age, as part of the loss of the "mythical" world in general -- a
loss that forms the emotional core of LOTR and renders it so poignant.
No doubt this poignancy contributes to the beauty of Tolkien's
writing in this chapter; Lórien represents a fragment of an earlier
world that had elsewhere been lost, and itself would eventually be
lost. (For the language of stones, compare Legolas's remark on the
stones of Eregion, and for the speech of plants, the Old Forest.)

I thought the "-melda" part of "vanimelda" might be related to
"mellon" and mean "beloved? But I could be wrong.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

<snip>

Post by Count Menelvagor

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[10] When Gimli and Frodo talk as they fall behind on the journey to
Lorien, there are references to the night-wind and to the
night-speech of plant and stone? What does this mean?

I'm not sure. It could just be a poetic figure of speech (I don't
recall the passage exactly, or have TBIFOM); but I think it's related
to one of the characteristics of the "mythical" world: the sense that
nature was much more aware than it is (or than we think of it as
being) today.

I like that idea. I was also hoping someone might come up with some sort
of meteorological justification for a wind arising at dusk, maybe
something to do with the loss of the Sun's heat. This would be the
night-wind effect.

I find it strange that Tolkien does not refer to the night-speech of
animals. He does refer to birds later on, and we had a talking fox many
moons ago, but I can't think of any other examples. I guess he was more
a tree/flower person.

Christopher

[Stan Brown]

Post by Count Menelvagor

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[10] When Gimli and Frodo talk as they fall behind on the journey to
Lorien, there are references to the night-wind and to the
night-speech of plant and stone? What does this mean?

I'm not sure. It could just be a poetic figure of speech (I don't
recall the passage exactly, or have TBIFOM); but I think it's related
to one of the characteristics of the "mythical" world: the sense that
nature was much more aware than it is (or than we think of it as
being) today.

Just to refresh our memories:

"'I don't know.' answered Frodo. 'I thought I heard feet, and I
thought I saw a light-like eyes. I have thought so often, since we
first entered Moria.'

"Gimli halted and stooped to the ground. 'I hear nothing but the
night-speech of plant and stone,' he said. 'Come! Let us hurry! The
others are out of sight.'"

Maybe I'm too literal-minded, but I thought Gimli was listening for
the tread of feet, and all he hears is the rustle of leaves and the
creaking of stone as it loses the heat of the day. I'm not sure how
seriously I want to advance this explanation, because I don't think
we've had any other indication that Gimli's hearing is keen enough
that he would expect to hear the patter of one pair of feet by
putting his ear to the ground.

If the passage is interpreted in a more metaphorical way, it echoes
nicely Legolas's comment about the rocks of Eregion telling him,
"deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us;
but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago."

[Henriette]

"Christopher Kreuzer" <***@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message news:<cQdsc.981$***@news-text.cableinet.net>...

A new lay-out, very well! As you also phrase your comments and
questions thus that I don't have to scroll back and forward all the
time, I find this one more comfortable (not sneering on anyone else,
because I used the same scroll-back-and-forward lay-out last time, but
I won't again).

I also appreciate the respect with which you treat the subject-matter,
and the thoroughness (Gründlichkeit:-))with which you work.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[1] As the Fellowship recover in Dimrill Dale, Aragorn's words ('Alas
that I spoke true!') reveal that his prophecy of danger to Gandalf was
unwitting.

To me, it does not reveal that at all. More like *alas!*, that I spoke
true.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[10] When Gimli and Frodo talk as they fall behind on the journey to
Lorien, there are references to the night-wind and to the night-speech
of plant and stone? What does this mean?

I think that you might need to spend some time in the woods at night,
so you know what JRRT is poetically referring to.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[11] What do you think of Legolas's song of Nimrodel? Both the story in
the song and the prose story that followed it? And what do you think of
the quality of the poetry?

Poetry is not JRRT's strong point, although I like this one and some
others. In my treatment of the next chapter I was planning on saying
that maybe he felt too restricted by what he thought necessary in the
sense of rhyme, rhythm, form, length and other rules and restrictions
that nowadays we are no longer so strict with, because his *prose* is
very poetic.

The poem contains the word 'mew'. Does that mean 'gull' (Dutch:
meeuw)? (I hope, it does not mean 'Balrog').

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[15] Frodo's reactions to entering Lorien are recorded with some of the
most beautiful writing in LotR. I can do no better than quote Tolkien's
own words. I almost hesitate to bring up so mundane a point as the
blindfolding, which enhances Frodo's senses, but maybe there is some
effect of the Ring/Morgul wound also at work here?

Why mundane? I think it has everything to do with the blindfolding.
Imagine JRRT even mentioning the sun Frodo felt on his face and hands
when passing through an open glade.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
The geography and appearance of the land and trees is extensively
described in this chapter, and with some beautiful writing (though some
find it dull).

LOL!

Henriette

[Igenlode]

On 25 May 2004 Henriette wrote:

[snip]

Post by Henriette
meeuw)? (I hope, it does not mean 'Balrog').

Yes. More usually rendered as 'sea-mew' in English - I suspect Tolkien
is taking poetic liberties :-)

[Henriette]

Post by Igenlode
[snip]

Post by Henriette
meeuw)? (I hope, it does not mean 'Balrog').

Yes. More usually rendered as 'sea-mew' in English - I suspect Tolkien
is taking poetic liberties :-)

Usually 'sea-mew', because otherwise it can be confused with the sound
of a cat. Some language, no?

Henriette

[Troels Forchhammer]

<snip>

Post by Henriette

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[11] What do you think of Legolas's song of Nimrodel? Both the
story in the song and the prose story that followed it? And what
do you think of the quality of the poetry?

Poetry is not JRRT's strong point,

I quite agree.

Post by Henriette
although I like this one and some others.

The quality varies, I think. I don't particularly like the long narrative
poems/songs (as poetry, that is) such as the Song of Nimrodel, but
there's a stirring strength in Théoden's staves at the the Pelennor
Fields (and Éomer's - "Mourn not overmuch"), and I'm fascinated by the
beauty of the Elvish poetry.

Some of the more humerous songs - the Old Inn and Sam's song of the
Troll, for instance, work fine, IMO.

Post by Henriette
In my treatment of the next chapter I was planning on saying that
maybe he felt too restricted by what he thought necessary in the
sense of rhyme, rhythm, form, length and other rules and restrictions
that nowadays we are no longer so strict with, because his *prose* is
very poetic.

I'm completely with you on the poetry of his prose, and this chapter is
one of the best examples of that.

You might be right that part of the problem was the restrictions of
metre, rhyme etc. that he imposed upon himself that to some extent makes
his poetry flow less freely than his prose, though it was not all forms
that restricted him like that. In my opinion he was a master at the old
alliterative forms: "spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered./a
sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!" - it's beautiful in my eyes :-)

<snip>

--
Troels Forchhammer

Gravity is a habit that is hard to shake off.
- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)

[the softrat]

On Thu, 27 May 2004 07:10:35 GMT, in alt.fan.tolkien "Troels

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Henriette

And what do you think of the quality of the poetry?

Poetry is not JRRT's strong point,

I quite agree.

Hmmmmm......

Tastes do differ. Read the poems in _The Book of Lost Tales_ (both
sections) and _The Lays of Beleriand_. Now JRRT is no T.S. Eliot,
which some consider his strong point.

Then read _The Iliad_ and _The Odyssey_, and _The Fairie Queen_.
_Sir Gawain and the Green Knight_ and _Pearl_ aren't bad either.


the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
"Never try to impress a woman because if you do, you'll have to
keep up that standard the rest of your life" -- W. C. Fields

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
In my opinion he was a
master at the old alliterative forms: "spear shall be shaken, shield
be splintered./a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!" - it's
beautiful in my eyes :-)

Did you mean to your ears? I know you see the alliteration as well as
hear it, but the beauty is from the repetition as heard when read out
aloud. Quite stunning when it is done well.

Incidentially, when reading alliterative verse, does anyone stress the
alliterative syllables, or should you _not_ do this and be more subtle?

Christopher

[Henriette]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Incidentially, when reading alliterative verse, does anyone stress the
alliterative syllables, or should you _not_ do this and be more subtle?

This should be done subtly to enhance the sensation of beauty, just
like a singer should not stress the difficult or high/low notes.
Except when looking for humorous effects...

Henriette

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Henriette

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Incidentially, when reading alliterative verse, does anyone stress
the alliterative syllables, or should you _not_ do this and be more
subtle?

This should be done subtly to enhance the sensation of beauty, just
like a singer should not stress the difficult or high/low notes.

So, when reading this bit out:

"We _heard_ of the _horns_ in the _hills_ ringing
The _swords_ _shining_ in the _south_ kingdom
_Steeds_ went _striding_ to the _stone_ ingland
As _wind_ in the morning. _War_ was kindled..."

I sometimes think that I am alliterating too much or in the wrong
places.

This might be more accurate:

"We _heard_ of the _horns_ in the _hills_ ringing
The _swords_ shining in the _south_ kingdom
_Steeds_ went _stride_ ing to the _stone_ ingland
As _wind_ in the morning. _War_ was kindled..."

With a 3/2 and 3/2 repetition of the alliteration scheme?

Christopher

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Troels Forchhammer <***@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Troels Forchhammer
there's a stirring strength in Théoden's staves at the
the Pelennor Fields (and Éomer's - "Mourn not overmuch")

Have you read 'The Homecoming...'? It has a good explanation of the
Northern values that I think are also expressed in the Rohirrim.
Something like "Stronger be heart, bolder..."
(can't remember the rest :-( )

Post by Troels Forchhammer
and I'm
fascinated by the beauty of the Elvish poetry.

Do you mean the stuff in Quenya? The paens to Elberath and Galadriel's
song of Eldamar?

Christopher

[Troels Forchhammer]

in <8mvtc.4692$***@news-text.cableinet.net>,
Christopher Kreuzer <***@blueyonder.co.uk> enriched us with:
<snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Have you read 'The Homecoming...'?

Unfortunately not - I find my reading time rather short these days,
and I'm still trying to find time to finish MR (and /Tree and Leaf/).

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
It has a good explanation of the Northern values that I think are
also expressed in the Rohirrim.

I think that part of my attraction to the Rohirrim lies in these
Northern values - there's a strong undercurrent in the Northern
countries dusting off the old legends etc. - the belief in the old
Norse Asir is recognised in Denmark and several other contries now
(which, among other things, means that the Godi ('priest') can legally
marry people, that they're allowed to conduct funerals etc.)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

and I'm fascinated by the beauty of the Elvish poetry.

Do you mean the stuff in Quenya?

Yup!

This is purely by sound - translating them would be a painstaking
process for me (I know where to find translations though).

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
The paens to Elberath and Galadriel's song of Eldamar?

Delightful! Beautiful!

--
Troels Forchhammer

Lo! we have gathered, and we have spent, and now the time of payment
draws near.
- Aragorn Son of Arathorn, 'LotR' (J.R.R. Tolkien)

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Count Menelvagor
<snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Have you read 'The Homecoming...'?

Unfortunately not - I find my reading time rather short these days,
and I'm still trying to find time to finish MR (and /Tree and Leaf/).

Seriously, if you can get hold of a copy of 'The Homecoming...' (it is
often published together with 'Tree and Leaf'), do put it at the top of
your reading list. If you like the Rohirric verse in LotR, you might
also like the slightly different style that is used in 'The
Homecoming...'

As for MR, I'm still meandering around in the Lays of Beleriand... :-(

[I _know_ , I should skip forward to the good bits of HoME!]

Post by Count Menelvagor

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
It has a good explanation of the Northern values that I think are
also expressed in the Rohirrim.

I think that part of my attraction to the Rohirrim lies in these
Northern values - there's a strong undercurrent in the Northern
countries dusting off the old legends etc. - the belief in the old
Norse Asir is recognised in Denmark and several other contries now
(which, among other things, means that the Godi ('priest') can legally
marry people, that they're allowed to conduct funerals etc.)

Really? I find that quite amazing in our mundane modern world.

Here is the "Northern values" quote from 'The Homecoming...':

"Heart shall be bolder, harder be purpose,
more proud the spirit as our power lessens!"

The original fragment that Tolkien derives this from is:

Hige sceal pe heardra, heorte pe cenre,
mod sceal pe mare pe ure maegen lytlad

[Will shall be the sterner, heart the bolder
spirit the greater as our strength lessens]

(though I've mangled the OE letters).

Tolkien relates that these words are:

"...held to be the finest expression of the northern heroic spirit,
Norse or English; the clearest statement of the doctrine of uttermost
endurance in the service of indomitable will."

And goes on to talk about 'ofermod' - roughly translated as
over-mastering pride.

Post by Count Menelvagor

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

and I'm fascinated by the beauty of the Elvish poetry.

Do you mean the stuff in Quenya?

Yup!
This is purely by sound - translating them would be a painstaking
process for me (I know where to find translations though).

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
The paeans to Elberath and Galadriel's song of Eldamar?

Delightful! Beautiful!

Each to his own, I guess! :-)

I get annoyed at having to work out how to pronounce things... [and then
realising years later that I've been getting it all badly wrong].

Christopher

[Henriette]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Some of the more humerous songs - the Old Inn and Sam's song of the
Troll, for instance, work fine, IMO.

Yes.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
You might be right that part of the problem was the restrictions of
metre, rhyme etc. that he imposed upon himself that to some extent makes
his poetry flow less freely than his prose, though it was not all forms
that restricted him like that. In my opinion he was a master at the old
alliterative forms: "spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered./a
sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!" - it's beautiful in my eyes :-)

We couldn't agree more:-)

Sometimes one can easily turn JRRT's sentences into small poems/atmosphere sketches:

Far away up on the hill
the sound of singing
falls from on high
like soft rain upon leaves

(I skipped 3 words from the sentence)

Henriette

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
In my opinion he was a
master at the old alliterative forms: "spear shall be shaken, shield
be splintered./a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!" - it's
beautiful in my eyes :-)

There seems to be a natural rhythm flowing through that verse. I wanted
to somehow type that rhythm out to show how I would tap it out, but I
don't know what the accepted ways are to represent a rhthym in a text
message. Anyone?

Christopher

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Henriette
I also appreciate the respect with which you treat the subject-matter,
and the thoroughness (Gründlichkeit:-))with which you work.

Thanks! What does Grundlichkeit mean?
<snip>

Post by Henriette

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[10] When Gimli and Frodo talk as they fall behind on the journey to
Lorien, there are references to the night-wind and to the
night-speech of plant and stone? What does this mean?

I think that you might need to spend some time in the woods at night,
so you know what JRRT is poetically referring to.

:-) I get scared of the dark... :-)

<snip>

Post by Henriette

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[15] Frodo's reactions to entering Lorien are recorded with some of
the most beautiful writing in LotR. I can do no better than quote
Tolkien's own words. I almost hesitate to bring up so mundane a
point as the blindfolding, which enhances Frodo's senses, but maybe
there is some effect of the Ring/Morgul wound also at work here?

Why mundane? I think it has everything to do with the blindfolding.
Imagine JRRT even mentioning the sun Frodo felt on his face and hands
when passing through an open glade.

Thank-you for pointing that out. It is very important.

Christopher

[Henriette]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Henriette
I also appreciate the respect with which you treat the subject-matter,
and the thoroughness (Gründlichkeit:-))with which you work.

Thanks! What does Grundlichkeit mean?

Thoroughness:-), so the opposite of shallowness. In NL this German
word has crept into our vocubulary, one of the few, especially when
compared to English words.

Henriette

[Jim Deutch]

On Mon, 24 May 2004 03:18:32 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[7] And how on Middle-earth can this star-effect happen when looking
into Mirrormere? It certainly leaves Sam lost for words, and explains

It's Magic. Like the stars visible during the day from the bottom of
a deep ravine, it is something that just doesn't happen in the "real"
world.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
the description in Gimli's song in the halls of Moria. Also, was anyone
else reminded of Balin's death when Gimli and Frodo peer into
Mirrormere?

Yes! I'd forgotten, but the first time I read LotR I was certain
Gimli was done for! "Get away from there, you fools!!!!" Maybe this
is a truly masterful evocation of tension on the part of the author.
Maybe it's just an overactive imagination on my part...

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[10] When Gimli and Frodo talk as they fall behind on the journey to
Lorien, there are references to the night-wind and to the night-speech
of plant and stone? What does this mean?

I always thought Gimli and Frodo were just talking about the natural
sounds that you can still hear when far away from noisy cities. But
I'm not so sure now, in light of Legolas' statement, way back in
Eregion, about the speech of the stones: "deep they delved us, high
they builded us, but they are gone..." Maybe that's something that
only Elves can hear, but maybe not.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[15] Frodo's reactions to entering Lorien are recorded with some of the
most beautiful writing in LotR. I can do no better than quote Tolkien's
own words. I almost hesitate to bring up so mundane a point as the
blindfolding, which enhances Frodo's senses, but maybe there is some
effect of the Ring/Morgul wound also at work here?

Could be. But try blindfolding yourself for a day -- even for a
half-hour -- and then taking off the blindfold in an unfamiliar and
attractive place. It _will_ seem almost magical.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
The geography and appearance of the land and trees is extensively
described in this chapter, and with some beautiful writing (though some
find it dull).

PJ must've been one of those, or he would have gotten at least a
little bit closer in his portrayal...

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
There are deeper feeling of Faerie here than anywhere else in LotR. As
we crossed the Silverlode and entered deep into the Naith of Lorien,
arriving at the fair hill of Cerin Amroth, we truly entered the realm of
Faerie. Although this will be developed further in the following
chapters, this first encounter is truly magical.

I think we got more than a little foreshadowing of this magical
feeling in the Hall of Fire in Rivendell.

Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Jim Deutch
On Mon, 24 May 2004 03:18:32 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"

Also, was anyone else reminded of Balin's death when
Gimli and Frodo peer into Mirrormere?

Yes! I'd forgotten, but the first time I read LotR I was certain
Gimli was done for! "Get away from there, you fools!!!!" Maybe this
is a truly masterful evocation of tension on the part of the author.
Maybe it's just an overactive imagination on my part...

[WARNING: insiduous fanfic treatment]

Just imagine:

"They stooped over the dark water [yadda, yadda, beautiful sight]...

<twang> The sound of a bowstring rang out.
<thwack> Gimli arched as the arrow hit him.
<splosh> And he collapsed with a sigh into Mirrormere.

"But it is I that must hasten away, and he that must remain"

[uh, uh, that's wrong Gimli: _you_ are staying as well now...]

But at least I let him have the joy of the sight...

[END FANFIC]

<snip>

Post by Jim Deutch

There are deeper feeling of Faerie here than anywhere else in LotR.
As we crossed the Silverlode and entered deep into the Naith of
Lorien, arriving at the fair hill of Cerin Amroth, we truly entered
the realm of Faerie. Although this will be developed further in the
following chapters, this first encounter is truly magical.

I think we got more than a little foreshadowing of this magical
feeling in the Hall of Fire in Rivendell.

Of course. That is also a truly magical moment. If anything, that is
more real than this one, because it is so deeply related to
storytelling. The beauty of Lorien can sometimes seem a little unreal, a
bit too alien, and ultimately 'wrong' in trying to hold back the ravages
of time. It would be interesting to explore in more detail the
differences and similarities between Rivendell and Lorien.

Christopher

[Jim Deutch]

On Fri, 28 May 2004 00:16:35 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Jim Deutch
On Mon, 24 May 2004 03:18:32 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
There are deeper feeling of Faerie here than anywhere else in LotR.
As we crossed the Silverlode and entered deep into the Naith of
Lorien, arriving at the fair hill of Cerin Amroth, we truly entered
the realm of Faerie. Although this will be developed further in the
following chapters, this first encounter is truly magical.

I think we got more than a little foreshadowing of this magical
feeling in the Hall of Fire in Rivendell.

Of course. That is also a truly magical moment. If anything, that is
more real than this one, because it is so deeply related to
storytelling. The beauty of Lorien can sometimes seem a little unreal, a
bit too alien, and ultimately 'wrong' in trying to hold back the ravages
of time. It would be interesting to explore in more detail the
differences and similarities between Rivendell and Lorien.

I agree. We've had at least these points raised so far (I'll gather
them together since they're scattered in this thread and others):

1. Galadriel, having been born in Valinor, has more intrinsic power
than Elrond.

2. Galadriel learned a lot of magic as handmaiden to Melian.

3. Elrond and Galadriel's rings were different, with different powers.

4. Rivendell was welcoming of visitors (if rather hard to find), while
Lorien was essentially barricaded against them.

Add more?

Jim Deutch (Jimbo the Cat)

[Emma Pease]

Post by Jim Deutch
On Fri, 28 May 2004 00:16:35 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Of course. That is also a truly magical moment. If anything, that is
more real than this one, because it is so deeply related to
storytelling. The beauty of Lorien can sometimes seem a little unreal, a
bit too alien, and ultimately 'wrong' in trying to hold back the ravages
of time. It would be interesting to explore in more detail the
differences and similarities between Rivendell and Lorien.

I agree. We've had at least these points raised so far (I'll gather
1. Galadriel, having been born in Valinor, has more intrinsic power
than Elrond.
2. Galadriel learned a lot of magic as handmaiden to Melian.
3. Elrond and Galadriel's rings were different, with different powers.
4. Rivendell was welcoming of visitors (if rather hard to find), while
Lorien was essentially barricaded against them.

But not completely. We know that Arwen travelled back and forth until
fairly recently and that Aragorn had been admitted before (be
interesting to know how)

Going back to the Dwarves, my guess is the last visit (Durin's Day)
had been shortly before the Balrog which was before Galadriel and
Celeborn had apparently arrived. Lothlorien did not have the
protections it later had and so suffered from orc attacks or worse.
The next major Dwarven encounter was probably the battle of
Nanduhirion in 1799 TA where they apparently cut down a lot of trees
(not something Elves were likely to appreciate).

Post by Jim Deutch
Add more?

[Stan Brown]

Post by Emma Pease

Post by Jim Deutch
4. Rivendell was welcoming of visitors (if rather hard to find), while
Lorien was essentially barricaded against them.

But not completely. We know that Arwen travelled back and forth until
fairly recently and that Aragorn had been admitted before (be
interesting to know how)

Arwen, I think, was a special case, being the granddaughter of the
Lord and Lady.

Maybe Aragorn was admitted because he was Arwen's intended?
Galadriel would certainly have seen the parallels with Beren and
Thingol, and would have made sure that Celeborn treated Aragorn
better than that.

[Emma Pease]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Emma Pease

Post by Jim Deutch
4. Rivendell was welcoming of visitors (if rather hard to find), while
Lorien was essentially barricaded against them.

But not completely. We know that Arwen travelled back and forth until
fairly recently and that Aragorn had been admitted before (be
interesting to know how)

Arwen, I think, was a special case, being the granddaughter of the
Lord and Lady.

But it does indicate some traffic between Rivendell and Lothlorien

As a thought to throw out. Do Dwarves taking the east/west road from
Erebor to Ered Luin normally stop at Rivendell?

Post by Stan Brown
Maybe Aragorn was admitted because he was Arwen's intended?
Galadriel would certainly have seen the parallels with Beren and
Thingol, and would have made sure that Celeborn treated Aragorn
better than that.

But he wasn't at that time. They plighted their troth while in
Lothlorien. I agree that Galadriel was the instigator and she may
have forseen what would happen. She might also have seen him as the
heir of Elendil and as one (if hope didn't fail) who would restore the
kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor.

Emma

ps. In my previous article I put the wrong date down for the battle of
Nanduhirion, it is 2799. Some 220 years before the LOTR. I wonder if
Gloin fought in it.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Jim Deutch
On Fri, 28 May 2004 00:16:35 GMT, "Christopher Kreuzer"

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
It would be interesting to explore in more
detail the differences and similarities between Rivendell and Lorien.

I agree. We've had at least these points raised so far (I'll gather
1. Galadriel, having been born in Valinor, has more intrinsic power
than Elrond.
2. Galadriel learned a lot of magic as handmaiden to Melian.
3. Elrond and Galadriel's rings were different, with different powers.
4. Rivendell was welcoming of visitors (if rather hard to find), while
Lorien was essentially barricaded against them.
Add more?

I'd contrast the "ancient things living" of Lorien with the "memory" of
Rivendell. The timeslips are more 'real' in Lorien, whereas Rivendell
just evokes your imagination.

Lorien was more a place of living trees and people.
Rivendell was a store of memory and lore.

I think other myths and legends have these archetypes as well.

And the connections between Rivendell and Lorien would be Celebrian and
Arwen. It would be interesting to see how they perceived the
differences.

Christopher

[Igenlode]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
Book 2, Chapter 6: Lothlorien

[snip]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Athelas is used to tend Sam and Frodo's wounds, and Frodo's coat of
mithril-mail is discovered, explaining his surviving the orc-attack in
Moria.

In the description of the Fellowship's leaving Lorien, we catch an
unusually domestic glimpse into the contents of Sam's pack, which
contains among sundry other items spare 'woollen hose' (doubtless stout
stockings) and 'linen' (underwear). So they do (as one would hope) plan
to change their clothing during the journey...

Given this practical necessity, I can't help wondering how Frodo
managed to keep the chain-mail a secret all this time! He's wearing
it under his outer clothing (his 'jacket' and 'tunic') but presumably
not next to his skin (Bilbo specifies "under your outer clothes", not
"under your clothes"). A 'shirt of soft leather' is mentioned as going
underneath, but I'd assume this is an integral part of the mail-shirt
rather than Frodo's customary undergarment - he presumably has an
ordinary woven garment on underneath.

So, unless he hasn't washed or changed his shirt since leaving Rivendell
(which, unless we assume that Sam is more fastidious than the rest of
the hobbits, seems unlikely) one can't help but imagine he has been
having some difficulty in keeping the nature of his garb concealed from
everybody else!

[snip]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Aragorn tells Boromir that there is no other way and
there is only peril for evil people.

I'm not sure that's quite what he implies: the more relevant part for
the company is that the only evil that is to be found there is the evil
that you yourself bring in with you...

Looking at the map - doubtless highly stylised - it is not clear to me
why Aragorn states that there is no alternative to passing through
Lorien. If they had turned south before the Silverlode met the waters of
Nimrodel, it appears they could have taken a more direct route between
Lorien and Fangorn down into Rohan, and thence, if required, to the
River. Since this would be rough country in the foothills of the
mountains, it would doubtless be slower, and since he is certain of aid
in the woods of Lothlorien it is easy to see why he prefers to follow
the stream; but I cannot help feeling that his desire to revisit the
scenes of his youth causes him to be a little more categorical in his
summary to Boromir than reality warrants :-) They *could* have skirted
Lorien - if the woods had been hostile, for example.


[snip]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
The next day, the Company are told that an army of orcs has passed into
the woods of Lorien, but that Lorien is being roused and none of the
orcs will escape alive. Haldir leads them eastwards across the
Silverlode using ropes to build a walkway.

I note that the Elf on the far side of the river is fair-haired (since
this is picked out for remark, presumably Haldir and his group are not).
If the fair-haired strain comes from the Vanyar, is it not very unusual
to find it among Silvan elves? (But then 'The Hobbit' speaks of 'golden
hair' and 'gleaming hair' with reference to the Wood-elves of Mirkwood,
so possibly the whole 'Elves are dark-haired' concept was a later
development of Tolkien's?)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
There is then a dispute over
blindfolding Gimli the Dwarf, which is the law of their land. Gimli
protests this treatment. Aragorn proposes that all shall be blindfolded,
and Legolas laments this.

Why *are* they blindfolded? What on earth are the Elves afraid they
might see - top-secret military installations? Trees? :-)

When Faramir blindfolds Frodo and Sam, it is for the specific reason of
hiding from them the route into a concealed refuge; but hiding the way
between the trees of Lorien is a little more difficult.

[snip]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[2] Aragorn holds up his sword in farewell to Gandalf - a mark of
respect that is alien to a non-sword using culture, though there are
doubtless analogs.

It's simply a salute, isn't it? Just as duellists (and fencers) are
supposed to salute each other before they begin...

The statement that "we may yet be avenged" (?on a Balrog?) seemed to me
more worthy of remark. But perhaps he has in mind the consequences of
achieving their quest?
[snip]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[11] What do you think of Legolas's song of Nimrodel? Both the story in
the song and the prose story that followed it? And what do you think of
the quality of the poetry?

It's a pretty standard ballad-form. Not one of the more memorable
lyrics in the book, to my mind.

I was wondering more *how* sorrow came upon 'Lorien of the Blossom' (is
this what 'Lothlorien' means?) when the Balrog was awakened beneath the
mountains. Obviously, it is far from pleasant to know such a horror to
be lurking within sight of your doorstep, as it were, but how would it
have harmed Lorien directly? Orc incursions in place of dwarf-trading,
perhaps?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[12] The difficulty in languages (between Frodo and Haldir) brings home
how insular and withdrawn the folk of Lorien are. Compare this to the
Dwarves who probably all spoke Westron and traded widely.

Haldir states that the Elves of Lorien had not heard of hobbits (from
his phrasing, it is implied that he has previously heard of them under
the name of 'halflings') "for many a long year, and did not know that
any yet dwelt in Middle-earth". This is interesting, since it
implicitly states that they *had* heard of hobbits before, and a long
time ago, too. In what context, one wonders? (They are apparently the
only people south of the Mountains who *are* familiar with hobbits - in
all his thousands of years of life, even Treebeard hasn't seen one.)

When he subsequently refers to the "Dark Days", can we assume that this
was the Elves' term for the era of the coming of the Balrog?


Why was there "a great troop of Orcs going north toward Moria" many
days ago - and from where? All our speculation aside, *could* this have
been the origin of the 'uruks of Mordor' encountered at the Chamber of
Mazarbul? "Many days ago" would seem to rule out this arrival as being
triggered by the observations of the crebain...


[snip]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[16] Yet more great writing. The 'great seas' and 'sea-birds' that Frodo
hears from the South Wind upon Cerin Amroth is exactly like the
description of the South Wind in the lament for Boromir.

That seemed a little odd to me. We learn later that Frodo has never
seen the sea - and since he has never before left the Shire, this is
quite natural. So how does he recognise the sound of sea-birds (Legolas
has apparently never heard them either)? He could have listened to a
shell and been told "this is the sound of the Sea"; though in the
insular Shire, I must admit that such a possibility seems unlikely! But
he could scarcely recognise the call of an extinct sea-bird :-)

[snip]

[Emma Pease]

Post by Igenlode

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
Book 2, Chapter 6: Lothlorien

[snip]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Aragorn tells Boromir that there is no other way and
there is only peril for evil people.

I'm not sure that's quite what he implies: the more relevant part for
the company is that the only evil that is to be found there is the evil
that you yourself bring in with you...
Looking at the map - doubtless highly stylised - it is not clear to me
why Aragorn states that there is no alternative to passing through
Lorien. If they had turned south before the Silverlode met the waters of
Nimrodel, it appears they could have taken a more direct route between
Lorien and Fangorn down into Rohan, and thence, if required, to the
River. Since this would be rough country in the foothills of the
mountains, it would doubtless be slower, and since he is certain of aid
in the woods of Lothlorien it is easy to see why he prefers to follow
the stream; but I cannot help feeling that his desire to revisit the
scenes of his youth causes him to be a little more categorical in his
summary to Boromir than reality warrants :-) They *could* have skirted
Lorien - if the woods had been hostile, for example.

Aragorn had killed an orc chieftain so it was almost certain that orcs
would pursue them after dark. Going into Lorien might

a. Cause the orcs to turn back for fear of the elves
b. Could gain them allies who could take care of the orcs for them

Post by Igenlode
[snip]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
The next day, the Company are told that an army of orcs has passed into
the woods of Lorien, but that Lorien is being roused and none of the
orcs will escape alive. Haldir leads them eastwards across the
Silverlode using ropes to build a walkway.

I note that the Elf on the far side of the river is fair-haired (since
this is picked out for remark, presumably Haldir and his group are not).
If the fair-haired strain comes from the Vanyar, is it not very unusual
to find it among Silvan elves? (But then 'The Hobbit' speaks of 'golden
hair' and 'gleaming hair' with reference to the Wood-elves of Mirkwood,
so possibly the whole 'Elves are dark-haired' concept was a later
development of Tolkien's?)

Puzzled me also. One way to justify it is that of the elves who set
out for Valinor only the Vanyar were fair haired but some of those who
never set out were also fair haired. Remember Eldar sometimes
referred to only the three houses who set out.

Post by Igenlode

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
There is then a dispute over
blindfolding Gimli the Dwarf, which is the law of their land. Gimli
protests this treatment. Aragorn proposes that all shall be blindfolded,
and Legolas laments this.

Why *are* they blindfolded? What on earth are the Elves afraid they
might see - top-secret military installations? Trees? :-)

The law is the law? It seems to have been a compromise by Haldir
between not permitting Gimli at all which the law decreed yet allowing
him to continue which is the sensible thing to do. Maybe the law
stated that no dwarf could _see_ the Naith of Lorien....

Post by Igenlode
When Faramir blindfolds Frodo and Sam, it is for the specific reason of
hiding from them the route into a concealed refuge; but hiding the way
between the trees of Lorien is a little more difficult.
[snip]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[12] The difficulty in languages (between Frodo and Haldir) brings home
how insular and withdrawn the folk of Lorien are. Compare this to the
Dwarves who probably all spoke Westron and traded widely.

Haldir states that the Elves of Lorien had not heard of hobbits (from
his phrasing, it is implied that he has previously heard of them under
the name of 'halflings') "for many a long year, and did not know that
any yet dwelt in Middle-earth". This is interesting, since it
implicitly states that they *had* heard of hobbits before, and a long
time ago, too. In what context, one wonders? (They are apparently the
only people south of the Mountains who *are* familiar with hobbits - in
all his thousands of years of life, even Treebeard hasn't seen one.)

Well hobbits had live in the vale of Anduin (Smeagol's people) so
there may have been some interactions then. This might also explain
how the people of Rohan had heard of hobbits (they had also dwelt in
the vale). As for Treebeard not being familiar with them, I doubt
Treebeard left Fangorn often and I doubt most hobbits went wandering
in Fangorn (unless they were Tooks or Brandybucks and in dire
straits).

Post by Igenlode
When he subsequently refers to the "Dark Days", can we assume that this
was the Elves' term for the era of the coming of the Balrog?
Why was there "a great troop of Orcs going north toward Moria" many
days ago - and from where? All our speculation aside, *could* this have
been the origin of the 'uruks of Mordor' encountered at the Chamber of
Mazarbul? "Many days ago" would seem to rule out this arrival as being
triggered by the observations of the crebain...

How much interaction did Saruman have with the Orcs of Moria? The
orcs could have come either from him or from Sauron.

Post by Igenlode
[snip]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[16] Yet more great writing. The 'great seas' and 'sea-birds' that Frodo
hears from the South Wind upon Cerin Amroth is exactly like the
description of the South Wind in the lament for Boromir.

That seemed a little odd to me. We learn later that Frodo has never
seen the sea - and since he has never before left the Shire, this is
quite natural. So how does he recognise the sound of sea-birds (Legolas
has apparently never heard them either)? He could have listened to a
shell and been told "this is the sound of the Sea"; though in the
insular Shire, I must admit that such a possibility seems unlikely! But
he could scarcely recognise the call of an extinct sea-bird :-)

But he has dreamed of it.

[Stan Brown]

"Emma Pease" <***@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote in
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
[speculating on the anti-Dwarf law of Lorien]

Post by Emma Pease
The law is the law? It seems to have been a compromise by Haldir
between not permitting Gimli at all which the law decreed yet allowing
him to continue which is the sensible thing to do. Maybe the law
stated that no dwarf could _see_ the Naith of Lorien....

Nobody has yet posted what seems to me the most likely explanation:
The law was made centuries ago, and Galadriel and Celeborn had not
thought to revoke it because they didn't expect the situation to
arise.

After all, as soon as they had word that the Fellowship was in
Lorien, the Lord and Lady sent instructions to let Gimli walk
freely.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Emma Pease
Aragorn had killed an orc chieftain so it was almost certain that orcs
would pursue them after dark.

As Gimli says, "to avenge a fallen chieftain."

Post by Emma Pease
Going into Lorien might
a. Cause the orcs to turn back for fear of the elves
b. Could gain them allies who could take care of the orcs for them

Only b, as the orcs didn't seem to be afraid of the elves. I found that
a bit strange, that the orcs quite happily went into Lorien. Of course,
none of them ever returned.

Christopher

[Troels Forchhammer]

Post by Igenlode

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
Book 2, Chapter 6: Lothlorien

<snip>

Post by Igenlode

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
There is then a dispute over blindfolding Gimli the Dwarf, which
is the law of their land. Gimli protests this treatment. Aragorn
proposes that all shall be blindfolded, and Legolas laments this.

Why *are* they blindfolded? What on earth are the Elves afraid they
might see - top-secret military installations? Trees? :-)

It does seem a bit arbitrary. Initially it was only Gimli who had to be
blind-folded, and that seemed to me more a way for Haldir to allow him
entry into Lothlórien at all - sort of a not too harmful way of making
the Dwarf harmless, so that he can cross the Silverlode in spite of the
law against it, a for Haldir to allow for both the plight of the company
and the law of the land. This kind of ridiculous and meaningless
stipulations are not unknown of in political agreements ;-)

" 'A dwarf! ' said Haldir. 'That is not well. We have not had
dealings with the Dwarves since the Dark Days. They are not
permitted in our land. I cannot allow him to pass.'
'But he is from the Lonely Mountain, one of Dáin's trusty
people, and friendly to Elrond,' said Frodo. 'Elrond himself
chose him to be one of our companions, and he has been brave
and faithful.'
The Elves spoke together in soft voices, and questioned
Legolas in their own tongue. 'Very good,' said Haldir at last.
'We will do this, though it is against our liking. If Aragorn
and Legolas will guard him, and answer for him, he shall pass;
but he must go blindfold through Lothlórien."

Blindfolding the whole company is Aragorn's reaction to Gimli's justified
indignation at being singled out, at which point Gimli sees the comedy of
the situation and suggests that only he and Legolas are blindfolded: I
wonder what his motives are? Is this a way of getting back at the Elf who
made the agreement, or does the humour in the offer take out the sting
and serve instead as another hint of the growing friendship between the
two?

Post by Igenlode
It's simply a salute, isn't it? Just as duellists (and fencers) are
supposed to salute each other before they begin...

"Morituri te salutant!" ;-)
(I firir laituvalmelyë!)

Post by Igenlode
The statement that "we may yet be avenged" (?on a Balrog?) seemed to
me more worthy of remark. But perhaps he has in mind the consequences
of achieving their quest?

Or vengeance on the Orcs (as he had just seen the Balrog fall into the
same chasm as Gandalf he probably held the same views on the Balrog's
prospects for survival as he did for Gandalf's).

<snip>

Post by Igenlode
I was wondering more *how* sorrow came upon 'Lorien of the Blossom'
(is this what 'Lothlorien' means?)

Thus spake Treebeard:

"Do not risk getting entangled in teh woods of /Laurelindórenan!
That is what the Elves used to call it, but now they make the
name shorter: Lothlórien they call it. Perhaps they are right:
maybe it is fading; not growing. Land of the Valley of Singing
Gold, that was it, once upon a time. Now it is the Dreamflower."

From 'loth' (S) or 'lót(ë)' (Q) "flower" + (possibly) 'lor-' (Q) "to
slumber" or 'lor' (Q) "dream". "Lórien" seems to be derived from Nandorin
(the Silvan Tongue) 'Lórinand' to imply the Quenya meaning of 'lor'
rather than the original (where it means "gold" or "golden light").

<snip>

Post by Igenlode
This is interesting, since it implicitly states that they *had*
heard of hobbits before, and a long time ago, too. In what context,
one wonders?

Halflings lived, as testified by Gollum, near the Gladden about a hundred
miles north of Lothlórien. In one of the versions of The Hunt for the
Ring in UT, Tolkien let a few Hobbits live there still (until the Nazgûl
came along looking for the Shire), while in another the Nazgûl found
their settlements long gone. Taking Haldir's statement into account I
think it unlikely that any Hobbit settlement had existed between Mirkwood
and the Misty Mountains for many years.

<snip>

--
Troels Forchhammer

The trouble with being a god is that you've got no one to pray to.
- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)

[Stan Brown]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Blindfolding the whole company is Aragorn's reaction to Gimli's justified
indignation at being singled out, at which point Gimli sees the comedy of
the situation and suggests that only he and Legolas are blindfolded: I
wonder what his motives are? Is this a way of getting back at the Elf who
made the agreement, or does the humour in the offer take out the sting
and serve instead as another hint of the growing friendship between the
two?

I think it's more straightforward: Gimli's resentment of Elves is
still simmering, and he expresses it quite clearly: if Legolas is
humiliated he himself is willing to be humiliated.

You say "another hint of the growing friendship between the two".
Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't seen any real hints of more than
a grudging tolerance at this point in the story.

I remember seeing friendship between Gimli and Legolas till after
they've run across Rohan together, and then especially after they've
had their friendly rivalry in Orc-killing at Helm's Deep.

[Troels Forchhammer]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Blindfolding the whole company is Aragorn's reaction to Gimli's
justified indignation at being singled out, at which point Gimli
sees the comedy of the situation and suggests that only he and
Legolas are blindfolded: I wonder what his motives are? Is this a
way of getting back at the Elf who made the agreement, or does the
humour in the offer take out the sting and serve instead as another
hint of the growing friendship between the two?

I think it's more straightforward: Gimli's resentment of Elves is
still simmering, and he expresses it quite clearly: if Legolas is
humiliated he himself is willing to be humiliated.

"Gimli laughed suddenly. 'A merry troop of fools we shall
look! Will Haldir lead us all on a string, like many blind
beggars with one dog? But I will be content, if only Legolas
here shares my blindness.'"

I think that my impression of a more lighthearted mood is due to Gimli's
laughter, and the ludicrousness of the image he describes.

I'm a bit hesitant to ascribe it entirely to his resentment to Elves in
general, though I wouldn't be surprised if that played a part as well.

Legolas, though Gimli could possibly only suspect that (It would need to
be Legolas, Frodo or Sam ...), was the one to make the agreement with
Haldir: he wasn't given any options, but that's another matter. I would
imagine that that also plays a role.

Post by Stan Brown
You say "another hint of the growing friendship between the two".
Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't seen any real hints of more than
a grudging tolerance at this point in the story.

It might be getting beyond 'grudging' at this point, but I think you're
right that it hasn't got to the state of friendship yet. I was thinking
of the whole process from the mutual accusations before entering Moria
(whose fault it was that the friendship waned between Dwarves and Elves)
and until the strong friendship they show at the end of the book. But
you're right, though Gandalf begs them to be friends (the above mentioned
argument), the real turning point is yet to come, I think.

Post by Stan Brown
I remember seeing friendship between Gimli and Legolas till after
they've run across Rohan together, and then especially after they've
had their friendly rivalry in Orc-killing at Helm's Deep.

There are, IMO, some very clear signs while they're in Lothlórien:
"Often he took Gimli with him when he went abroad in the land,
and the others wondered at this change."
And of course as they arrange themselves in the boats we hear that "in
the third were Legolas and Gimli, who had now become fast friends."

I think the turning point - or perhaps rather the leap forwards - for
their friendship came when they first met Galadriel. Gimli's reaction was
remarkable, "and it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart
of an enemy and saw there love and understanding."

There is, I believe, a continual process growing from resentment, over
grudging tolerance, tolerance and gruding respect (after Moria) to the
friendship we see in Caras Galadhon.

--
Troels Forchhammer

Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true.
- Niels Bohr, to a young physicist

[Stan Brown]

"Troels Forchhammer" <***@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote in
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
(about the growing friendship between Gimli and Legolas)

Post by Troels Forchhammer
"Often he took Gimli with him when he went abroad in the land,
and the others wondered at this change."
And of course as they arrange themselves in the boats we hear that "in
the third were Legolas and Gimli, who had now become fast friends."
I think the turning point - or perhaps rather the leap forwards - for
their friendship came when they first met Galadriel. Gimli's reaction was
remarkable, "and it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart
of an enemy and saw there love and understanding."

Thanks for reminding me about this. I tend to forget how much Gimli
was changed by meeting Galadriel.

We were talking earlier about evil happening only to those who take
evil thoughts into Lorien. This, I've just realized, is the mirror
image: Gimli went into Lorien by no means evil, but somber and
joyless. Meeting Galadriel opened up that good dwarf's capacity for
joy and his love of "higher things". Can you imagine him "capering"
in Rivendell? Yet that's exactly what he does in Fangorn forest when
Gandalf merely gives him a message from Galadriel.

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Igenlode
Why *are* they blindfolded? What on earth are the Elves afraid they
might see - top-secret military installations? Trees? :-)
When Faramir blindfolds Frodo and Sam, it is for the specific reason of
hiding from them the route into a concealed refuge; but hiding the way
between the trees of Lorien is a little more difficult.

But it may not be obvious where exactly Caras Galadhon, "the heart of
Elvendom on Earth", is to be found in Lorien. So it might make sense
to conceale it's exact location.

And anyway, it adds to the impression of "we're now seeing things here
that are forbidden to others".

Post by Igenlode
I was wondering more *how* sorrow came upon 'Lorien of the Blossom' (is
this what 'Lothlorien' means?)

Yes, *LOT(H) means "flower".

Post by Igenlode
This is interesting, since it implicitly states that [the elves of
Lorien] *had* heard of hobbits before, and a long time ago, too. In
what context, one wonders?

The prologue says that the "earliest tales" of the Hobbits "glimpse a
time when they dwelt in the upper vales of Anduin, between the eaves
of Greenwood the Great and the Misty Mountains." That's close enough
to Lorien for the elves to notice them. And when the Hobbits crossed
the mountains, the elves probably lost track of them.

Post by Igenlode
(They are apparently the only people south of the Mountains who
*are* familiar with hobbits - in all his thousands of years of life,
even Treebeard hasn't seen one.)

Fangorn is more to the south, so that seems to fit.

Post by Igenlode
That seemed a little odd to me. We learn later that Frodo has never
seen the sea - and since he has never before left the Shire, this is
quite natural. So how does he recognise the sound of sea-birds (Legolas
has apparently never heard them either)?

One could come up with a semi-story-internal explanation: Frodo wrote the
Red Book back in Hobbingen, after he had been to Gondor and Harlond,
where he would have learned how to recognize the sea-birds.

Or, one could simply attribute it to the omniscient narrator, who
describes things for out benefit: After all, we're only told what
Frodo hears, not whether he recognizes it.

- Dirk

[Stan Brown]

Post by Dirk Thierbach
One could come up with a semi-story-internal explanation: Frodo wrote the
Red Book back in Hobbingen, after he had been to Gondor and Harlond,
where he would have learned how to recognize the sea-birds.

Seagulls come quite far inland, don't they? At the risk of having
someone correct me for poor birding knowledge, I'll say that I see
them all the time here in Cortland Country, a couple of hundred
miles from the Atlantic. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that
Frodo would have heard them in the Shire.

[Taemon]

Post by Stan Brown
Seagulls come quite far inland, don't they? At the risk
of having someone correct me for poor birding knowledge,
I'll say that I see them all the time here in Cortland
Country, a couple of hundred miles from the Atlantic.

It is true they come quite far inland, but I seem to recall this
is a relatively new development, induced by our human habit of
leaving a lot of waste behind everywhere we go. This could be
true of Middle-Earth of course, but the way Tolkien describes
gulls as something special, I don't think so.

T.

[the softrat]

On Thu, 27 May 2004 14:15:37 -0400, Stan Brown

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Dirk Thierbach
One could come up with a semi-story-internal explanation: Frodo wrote the
Red Book back in Hobbingen, after he had been to Gondor and Harlond,
where he would have learned how to recognize the sea-birds.

Seagulls come quite far inland, don't they? At the risk of having
someone correct me for poor birding knowledge, I'll say that I see
them all the time here in Cortland Country, a couple of hundred
miles from the Atlantic. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that
Frodo would have heard them in the Shire.

In an incident which is very famous in Mormon circles, a herd of
seagulls made it inland as far as Salt Lake City. There is a memorial
statue to them.

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:***@pobox.com
--
Chairman: Animals for the Ethical Treatment of People

[Robert J. Kolker]

Post by the softrat
In an incident which is very famous in Mormon circles, a herd of
seagulls made it inland as far as Salt Lake City. There is a memorial
statue to them.

A very large turd (no no, just kidding).

Bob Kolker

[Flame of the West]

Post by Robert J. Kolker

Post by the softrat
In an incident which is very famous in Mormon circles, a herd of
seagulls made it inland as far as Salt Lake City. There is a memorial
statue to them.

A very large turd (no no, just kidding).

*LOL!*


-- FotW

Barad-dûr MUST rise again, at least as tall as before...or Frodo has
triumphed.

[TeaLady (Mari C.)]

Post by Stan Brown

Frodo wrote the Red Book back in Hobbingen, after he had
been to Gondor and Harlond, where he would have learned how
to recognize the sea-birds.

Seagulls come quite far inland, don't they? At the risk of
having someone correct me for poor birding knowledge, I'll
say that I see them all the time here in Cortland Country, a
couple of hundred miles from the Atlantic. It doesn't seem
unreasonable to me that Frodo would have heard them in the
Shire.

We even have (used to be sea) gulls in Cleveland, Ohio - but
that is due more to the Great Lakes than proximity to any oceans
or seas.

Great Lakes Gulls ? Ocean Gulls ? Got Blown Inland Gulls ?

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Dirk Thierbach
But it may not be obvious where exactly Caras Galadhon, "the heart of
Elvendom on Earth", is to be found in Lorien. So it might make sense
to conceale it's exact location.

Good point. Except Aragorn may be referring specifically to Cerin Amroth
as the heart of Elvendom on earth, or Lorien in general. Incidentially,
I know Earth is not capitalized when Tolkien uses it in the sense of
Middle-earth, but it still seems to be a translation from Westron into
colloquial English.

Where they would say "heart of Elvendom on Middle-earth", we would say
"heart of Elvendom on Earth", so Tolkien translates it that way. Or is
that too convoluted an explanation?

Christopher

[Stan Brown]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Where they would say "heart of Elvendom on Middle-earth", we would say
"heart of Elvendom on Earth", so Tolkien translates it that way. Or is
that too convoluted an explanation?

I think the heart of Elvendom on Earth would be in Tol Eressea, not
in Middle-earth. :-)

Oops! I just realized that, strictly speaking, Tol Eressea isn't "on
Earth" any more by the time of the War of the Ring. So maybe Aragorn
actually said "heart of Elvendom on Earth" and Tolkien just
translated it directly.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Dirk Thierbach
Or, one could simply attribute it to the omniscient narrator, who
describes things for our benefit: After all, we're only told what
Frodo hears, not whether he recognizes it.

"Frodo stood still, hearing far off strange sounds of water and
squeaking that he did not recognise."

Hmm. Doesn't have quite the same ring. :-)

Christopher

[Dirk Thierbach]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Dirk Thierbach
Or, one could simply attribute it to the omniscient narrator, who
describes things for our benefit: After all, we're only told what
Frodo hears, not whether he recognizes it.

"Frodo stood still, hearing far off strange sounds of water and
squeaking that he did not recognise."
Hmm. Doesn't have quite the same ring. :-)

Yes. That's why he didn't meantion it :-)

- Dirk

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Igenlode

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Aragorn tells Boromir that there is no other way and
there is only peril for evil people.

I'm not sure that's quite what he implies: the more relevant part for
the company is that the only evil that is to be found there is the
evil that you yourself bring in with you...

Quite right. I skimped on summarising that bit...

Post by Igenlode
Looking at the map - doubtless highly stylised - it is not clear to me
why Aragorn states that there is no alternative to passing through
Lorien. If they had turned south before the Silverlode met the waters
of Nimrodel, it appears they could have taken a more direct route
between Lorien and Fangorn down into Rohan, and thence, if required,
to the River. Since this would be rough country in the foothills of
the mountains, it would doubtless be slower

A possible answer to this is on the description of the Great River and
the lands around Rauros in the chapter called 'The Great River'. We hear
that the woods extend beyond the land of Lorien (as shown on the map)
far along the western bank of Anduin, and then the woods fail. On the
east are the Brown Lands, and on the west, rolling meads (huh, what are
these?) and plains of grass (the beginning of the plains of Rohan).
There are also reeds as well, and Aragorn says that around the Entwash
there are many swamps and dangerous fogs descend without warning. So
maybe this would happen around the Limlight as well? Without the boats
and going down the Anduin, they would have taken a _long_ time to cover
this route.

Post by Igenlode
and since he is certain
of aid in the woods of Lothlorien it is easy to see why he prefers to
follow the stream; but I cannot help feeling that his desire to
revisit the scenes of his youth causes him to be a little more
categorical in his summary to Boromir than reality warrants :-)

There is that, of course. :-)

Christopher

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Igenlode <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:

[on Haldir's dialogue]

Post by Igenlode
When he subsequently refers to the "Dark Days", can we assume that
this was the Elves' term for the era of the coming of the Balrog?

It could mean the time when Sauron attacked the Elves of Eregion, and
when the Doors of Moria were shut. I belive that the coming of the
Balrog happens much later. This would also shed light on which Durin is
referred to.

Post by Igenlode
Why was there "a great troop of Orcs going north toward Moria" many
days ago - and from where? All our speculation aside, *could* this
have been the origin of the 'uruks of Mordor' encountered at the
Chamber of Mazarbul? "Many days ago" would seem to rule out this
arrival as being triggered by the observations of the crebain...

Ooh. Good point. Though if there were reports of a company going over
Caradhras, then the logical place to intercept them would be at the
Dimril Stair, which emerges just north of the East Gate of Moria. It
does seem like these orcs might have entered Moria and had trolls put
down those stone bridges across the chasm of fire.

Post by Igenlode
[snip]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[16] Yet more great writing. The 'great seas' and 'sea-birds' that
Frodo hears from the South Wind upon Cerin Amroth is exactly like the
description of the South Wind in the lament for Boromir.

That seemed a little odd to me. We learn later that Frodo has never
seen the sea - and since he has never before left the Shire, this is
quite natural. So how does he recognise the sound of sea-birds

I like Emma's idea that he dreamt of sea-birds in those dreams he has
been having.

Christopher

[Troels Forchhammer]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
Book 2, Chapter 6: Lothlorien

Excellent - as we have come to expect ;-) My thanks.

<snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
This, according to Gimli, is the crown of Durin,

I don't think that the Crown of Durin is these reflected stars. These
were doubtlessly the "crown of stars" Durin saw appear, when he looked in
Mirrormere (the song in the preceding chapter), but I don't think that
they are what is referred to in the last two lines:

"There lies his crown in water deep,
Till Durin wakes again from sleep."

Nor that it is what Gimli refers to when he says, "There lies the Crown
of Durin till he wakes. Farewell!"

My impression has always been that besides the stars there was also a
regular crown - as on the west door: "an anvil and a hammer surmounted by
a crown with seven stars" - the picture of the door shows the crown, and
the seven stars (the midmost appearing as the crest of the crown).

These tokens ("'There are the emblems of Durin!' cried Gimli") show, IMO,
the two different 'crown' - the standard crown (worn by the Kings of
Moria) and the metaphorical crown of stars that appeared to Durin in
Mirrormere.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
a sight that leaves Sam deep in thought.

I wonder what he saw that made him that thoughtful?

<snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
"As soon as he set foot upon the far bank of the Silverlode

[...]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
in Lorien the ancient things still lived on in the waking world."

Beautiful - just beautiful!

<snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
The blindfolds are removed from Gimli first. His pardon is asked,
and he is declared to be the first dwarf to see the Naith of
Lorien since Durin's Day.

Which Durin, I wonder?
Durin I? As you note elsewhere that would push it far back into the elder
days.
Or possibly Durin VI, who was killed by the Balrog in 1980 TA - a 'mere'
thousand years ago.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
There is a wonderful description of the beauty of Lorien,

Tolkien's description of Lórien here is probably the most beautiful
descriptive prose I have ever read. I always find myself lingering at
this point, rereading favourite passages before moving on.

Tolkien's own love of trees is, I believe, shining through here.

<snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[2] Aragorn holds up his sword in farewell to Gandalf - a mark of
respect that is alien to a non-sword using culture, though there are
doubtless analogs.

Don't we still 'present arms' (isn't that the English expression?)

Just because the arms today have been changed from swords to guns does
not, IMO, change the meaning of the action. Also, in Danish military,
when the full-dress uniform includes a sword/sabre, this is inevitably
used to 'salute' with.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[3] The 'we must do without hope' comment by Aragorn is strange.
Doesn't that run counter to Tolkien/Gandalf's whole philosophy of
trusting to a Greater Power to help out as long as you do the 'right'
thing?

I think it would be an important point for Tolkien also that we (humans,
that is) can't always 'do the right thing' - we are fallible, and even
one as great as Aragorn can fall prey to a moment's despair. But he
recovers, he does continue, hoping without hope. In that respect he still
demonstrates the reaction of the noble person (and serves as the good
example of how to handle despair; the counter to Denethor's suicidal
madness).

<snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
[10] When Gimli and Frodo talk as they fall behind on the journey to
Lorien, there are references to the night-wind and to the night-speech
of plant and stone? What does this mean?

I have always taken that to refer to the natural night-time sounds of a
forest. Rustling of leaves etc.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
B) General comments

I have little to add to these. I agree with what you say, and I don't
find much room for anything to add ;-)

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
The geography and appearance of the land and trees is extensively
described in this chapter, and with some beautiful writing (though
some find it dull).

This is, to me, one of the wonders of Tolkien's writing. I find that
often his prose flows or feels very appropriate for the general emotional
state of the current (story-internal) narrator(s). When I read of Frodo
and Sam's passage from the Emyn Muil to the Morannon, I find the prose
repetitive and plodding slowly along, while here, in, no let's use the
old name, Laurelindórenan, I find it freely flowing with an almost
timeless air. It might of course also be my own expectations affecting
how I read these chapters.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
The character of Legolas is now being developed _much_ more.

[...]

"It is best to love first what you are fitted to love, I
suppose: you must start somewhere and have some roots,
and the soil of the Shire is deep."
(Merry in V,8 'The Houses of Healing')

It is very appropriate, I think, that we begin to learn more about these
people as we reach the ancient homelands of their peoples - the roots of
their cultures. The same is true for Aragorn (whom we meet and get to
know first in Eriador), and to some extent for Boromir as well: his main
development doesn't occur until he stood "once more on the borders of
[his] land, and dire need [was] on [him]."

--
Troels Forchhammer

A Thaum is the basic unit of magical strength. It has been universally
established as the amount of magic needed to create one small white
pigeon or three normal sized billiard balls.
- (Terry Pratchett, The Light Fantastic)

[Stan Brown]

Post by Troels Forchhammer
I don't think that the Crown of Durin is these reflected stars.

I don't think so either.

Weren't the Seven Stars what we today call the Big Dipper or the
Plough? If so, they could be the Baseball Cap of Durin but hardly
his Crown. :-)

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Troels Forchhammer
I don't think that the Crown of Durin is these reflected stars.

I don't think so either.

Well, I've addressed this in full in my reply to Troels's post, but
there are a few comments I could make about the seven stars.

Post by Stan Brown
Weren't the Seven Stars what we today call the Big Dipper or the
Plough? If so, they could be the Baseball Cap of Durin but hardly
his Crown. :-)

The following quote is from the 'Numbers in Tolkien' thread.

[START QUOTE]

And I've tracked down the origin of the seven stars of Durin:

"[the 7 stars of Durin] represented the Plough" ('star' index entry,
LotR)

"And high in the north as a challenge to Melkor [Varda] set the crown of
seven mighty stars to swing, Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar and sign
of doom." (Silm, 3)

[Here we see a clear reference to these stars as a crown.]

"And in answer [Beren] sang a song of challenge that he had made in
praise of the Seven Stars, the Sickle of the Valar that Varda hung above
the North as a sign for the fall of Morgoth." (Silm, 19)

[Not a relevant quote, but it is nice so I left it in!]

[END QUOTE]

Regarding the shape of the Plough, or Big Dipper, I believe that it is
posible to trace the shape of a crown (or sickle) if you are imaginative
enough, and I believe it may have been called a crown by other times and
cultures.

It is more debatable about whether these stars are exactly the same as
the crown of stars that Durin saw appear in Mirrormere. I would say not.
However, the legend of the crown of stars in Mirrormere might have led
to the dwarves identifying the Plough (or Valacirca) as a crown
constellation, and this would lead to their use in the symbols of
Durin's House, as we see on the Doors of Moria.

Christopher

[Stan Brown]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Regarding the shape of the Plough, or Big Dipper, I believe that it is
posible to trace the shape of a crown (or sickle) if you are imaginative
enough, and I believe it may have been called a crown by other times and
cultures.

A picture of the Plough or Big Dipper can be seen on the Alaska
state flag:
Loading Image...
or in context
http://www.anyflag.com/state/alaska.htm
The big star at the upper right is the North Star, Polaris. It's not
part of the constellation (and was not the North Star during the
Third Age, not even as recently as Julius Caesar's time.

I have no trouble at all seeing that as a sickle: just connect the
four stars of the "bucket" with one curved line rather than three
straight lines. But I am utterly unable to see it as a crown. Can
anyone help?

(Cassiopeia, the W-shaped group of five stars, is the only thing in
the sky that looks at all crown-like to me.)

Side note: You'd think the Alaska State Government Web site,
www.state.ak.us, would be the natural place to find a picture of the
Alaska state flag. You'd be wrong. Even the page of "State Symbols"
at <http://www.dced.state.ak.us/oed/student_info/student.htm> shows
pictures of a dozen or so like the state marine mammal but only
_describes_ the flag!

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Stan Brown

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Regarding the shape of the Plough, or Big Dipper, I believe that it
is posible to trace the shape of a crown (or sickle) if you are
imaginative enough, and I believe it may have been called a crown by
other times and cultures.

A picture of the Plough or Big Dipper can be seen on the Alaska
state flag: http://www.anyflag.com/state/alaska.htm

<snip>

Post by Stan Brown
I have no trouble at all seeing that as a sickle: just connect the
four stars of the "bucket" with one curved line rather than three
straight lines. But I am utterly unable to see it as a crown. Can
anyone help?

The Corona Borealis constellation is seven stars in the shape of a
crown.

http://www.seds.org/Maps/Stars_en/Fig/coronaborealis.html

This could be the inspiration for Durin's crown of stars. However, the
Seven Stars of Durin are specifically said to be the Plough, so it looks
likely (given that this is not crown-shaped) that the Seven Stars of
Durin (=Valacirca) are nothing to do with the crown of stars seen in
Mirrormere.

Which is a pity. I wonder if, just possibly, the index entry that
identifies the seven stars of Durin as the Plough, might be wrong, and
should refer to Corona Borealis instead?

Christopher

[Stan Brown]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
The Corona Borealis constellation is seven stars in the shape of a
crown.
http://www.seds.org/Maps/Stars_en/Fig/coronaborealis.html
This could be the inspiration for Durin's crown of stars. However, the
Seven Stars of Durin are specifically said to be the Plough, so it looks
likely (given that this is not crown-shaped) that the Seven Stars of
Durin (=Valacirca) are nothing to do with the crown of stars seen in
Mirrormere.

Cool! I had never heard of the Northern Crown -- nor of that Web
site with constellation maps, which I've bookmarked.

I agree with you, they're a lot more believable as a crown, and it's
too bad that Tolkien identified the Plough as Durin's Crown.

Does anyone know how much of a stargazer Tolkien was? Corona
Borealis is not one of the best-known constellations; would he have
been aware of it, do you think?

[Christopher Kreuzer]

Post by Troels Forchhammer

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Chapter of the Week (CotW) 'The Lord of the Rings' (LotR)
Book 2, Chapter 6: Lothlorien

Excellent - as we have come to expect ;-) My thanks.

:-) Thanks. We expect no less from you and many others here!

Post by Troels Forchhammer
<snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
This, according to Gimli, is the crown of Durin,

I don't think that the Crown of Durin is these reflected stars. These
were doubtlessly the "crown of stars" Durin saw appear, when he
looked in Mirrormere (the song in the preceding chapter), but I don't
"There lies his crown in water deep,
Till Durin wakes again from sleep."

Why would it be anything different?

If you look at the quote in full:

"But still the sunken stars appear
In dark and windless Mirrormere;
There lies his crown in water deep
Till Durin wakes again from sleep."

To me, the 'still' and 'there' link the 'sunken stars' to the 'crown',
which is in 'water deep' - a link to the sunken nature of the stars.
I've never thought of this crown as being anything other than the stars,
with one exception (see below).

Post by Troels Forchhammer
Nor that it is what Gimli refers to when he says, "There lies the
Crown of Durin till he wakes. Farewell!"

And to quote the full passage here:

"They stooped over the dark water. At first they could see nothing. Then
slowly they saw the forms of the encircling mountains mirrored in a
profound blue, and the peaks were like plumes of white flame above them;
beyond there was a space of sky. There like jewels sunk in the deep
shone glinting stars, though sunlight was in the sky above. Of their own
stooping forms no shadow could be seen."
'Oh Kheled-zaram fair and wonderful!' said Gimli. 'There lies the crown
of Durin till he wakes. Farewell!' He bowed and turned away..."

To me it is plain that Gimli is referring to what he and Frodo have just
seen in Mirrormere: the crown of Durin. Together with the passage from
the poem where Durin saw a "crown of stars" appear when he looked in
Mirrormere, it is plain that the stars are the crown. A possible
extension to this, is the fact that the peaks of the "encircling
mountains" might take the form of the spikes of a crown. So the
combination of the stars and mountains give rise to the name: Durin's
crown.

Post by Troels Forchhammer
My impression has always been that besides the stars there was also a
regular crown - as on the west door: "an anvil and a hammer
surmounted by a crown with seven stars" - the picture of the door
shows the crown, and the seven stars (the midmost appearing as the
crest of the crown).

A regular crown, maybe, but this is not what I take the references to a
crown in Mirrormere to mean. And in any case, I believe that this crown
symbol on the Doors of Moria is referring to the Mirrormere crown. The
appearance of the stars in the 'Durin looking in Mirrormere' tale
should, IMO, be seen as a symbol of the legitimacy of Durin and a sign
to him that this is where he should establish his realm. Hence the fact
that he makes the crown and the seven stars the symbols of his house.
(Though the _seven_ stars also represents a specific constellation, see
my response to Stan's post).

Post by Troels Forchhammer
These tokens ("'There are the emblems of Durin!' cried Gimli") show,
IMO, the two different 'crown' - the standard crown (worn by the
Kings of Moria) and the metaphorical crown of stars that appeared to
Durin in Mirrormere.

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
a sight that leaves Sam deep in thought.

I wonder what he saw that made him that thoughtful?

I think it was the sight of those stars.

<snip>

Post by Troels Forchhammer
"It is best to love first what you are fitted to love, I
suppose: you must start somewhere and have some roots,
and the soil of the Shire is deep."
(Merry in V,8 'The Houses of Healing')

Ooh. Nice quote!

Post by Troels Forchhammer
It is very appropriate, I think, that we begin to learn more about
these people as we reach the ancient homelands of their peoples - the
roots of their cultures.

Agreed.

Christopher

[Troels Forchhammer]

<snip>

Post by Christopher Kreuzer

Post by Troels Forchhammer
I don't think that the Crown of Durin is these reflected stars.

[...]

Post by Christopher Kreuzer
Why would it be anything different?

I think that, to me, the words, "Till Durin wakes again ..." suggest that
the crown will be lifted/removed from Mirrormere when Durin wakes again
(that must be when Durin VII comes), and this has shaped my
interpretation of the rest.

I do like your interpretation, though. It is less prosaic than mine, but
old habit do leave me unconvinced ;-)

<snip>

--
Troels Forchhammer

If no thought
your mind does visit,
make your speech
not too explicit.
- Piet Hein, /The Case for Obscurity/