Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!

[Ken Poshedly]

Due to the addition of 2 new contract writers and the replacement of the hard drive in an existing terminal in my department, we're now stuck with Windows 7 and
FrameMaker 11 on those three platforms for the past month or so.

And
it's been nothing but problems ever since, with unpredictable crashes on the desktop computers used by the two contract writers, even though all three
FM 11 platforms have all the Adobe patches.


One thing which does seem consistent is that FM11 does not seem to work well with files located on our network server, yet that is really the method here. Symptoms may include _extremely_ long times to open, save and close files and MAY include the abovementioned FrameMaker crashes, though we have not yet confirmed that.

The "fix" is for the contract writers to copy files from our 4-terrabyte network drive onto external hard drives cabled to their terminals and for my coworker to copy files directly onto his computer's internal hard drive; then copy the revised file back into place in its location on the network drive.

The two contract writer desktop computers have ridiculously internal small hard drives. (One is 29 megabytes and the other is 185 megabytes I've been told.)


Me? I'm happy as a
clam with Windows XP and FrameMaker 8 working across the network with no FM crashes or other problems -- though I do have to suffer through the long times to open, save and close files because we now must embed all our graphics instead of referencing them. (I've boohoo'd about that here in the past, so I'll not repeat the faulty reasoning for it once again.)

But doom is in my
future, as all four of us are soon to get new platforms with Windows 7
and FM 11.

This I really dread.

Who else out there is having what seems to be incompatibility problems with platforms equipped with FM 11 and Windows 7 and how have you gotten around those problems?

Off-list accounts, etc, are fine.

-- Ken in Atlanta

[Jeff Coatsworth]

I've been running Win7 64bit with FM11 for some time now with my FM files on our network drive with no problems or crashes at all. I think the trick is to have a large amount of RAM installed (at least 8 GB) and lots of spare space on your hard drive for temp files. You may find that you need to implement some sort of source control to check out/in files from your server to your local drive.

From: framers-***@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Ken Poshedly
Sent: August-08-13 11:54 AM
To: FrameMaker Users List
Subject: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!

Due to the addition of 2 new contract writers and the replacement of the hard drive in an existing terminal in my department, we're now stuck with Windows 7 and FrameMaker 11 on those three platforms for the past month or so.

And it's been nothing but problems ever since, with unpredictable crashes on the desktop computers used by the two contract writers, even though all three FM 11 platforms have all the Adobe patches.

One thing which does seem consistent is that FM11 does not seem to work well with files located on our network server, yet that is really the method here. Symptoms may include _extremely_ long times to open, save and close files and MAY include the abovementioned FrameMaker crashes, though we have not yet confirmed that.

The "fix" is for the contract writers to copy files from our 4-terrabyte network drive onto external hard drives cabled to their terminals and for my coworker to copy files directly onto his computer's internal hard drive; then copy the revised file back into place in its location on the network drive.

The two contract writer desktop computers have ridiculously internal small hard drives. (One is 29 megabytes and the other is 185 megabytes I've been told.)

Me? I'm happy as a clam with Windows XP and FrameMaker 8 working across the network with no FM crashes or other problems -- though I do have to suffer through the long times to open, save and close files because we now must embed all our graphics instead of referencing them. (I've boohoo'd about that here in the past, so I'll not repeat the faulty reasoning for it once again.)

But doom is in my future, as all four of us are soon to get new platforms with Windows 7 and FM 11.

This I really dread.

Who else out there is having what seems to be incompatibility problems with platforms equipped with FM 11 and Windows 7 and how have you gotten around those problems?

Off-list accounts, etc, are fine.

-- Ken in Atlanta

[Art Campbell]

I'd second Jeff's recommendations, but IMHO, most of the problems
you're seeing could be the result of network permissions differences
between the server and the workstations. Are all the owners in the
same group, does that group exist on the server AND the workstations,
and do all members of the group have local (workstation) admin
privileges?

Also, if the workstations are connecting via wireless or VPN, that
adds another layer of potential hiccups.

And finally, if your network is, perhaps, not a fairly modern setup
with good throughput, it may be slowing things down.


Art Campbell
***@gmail.com
"... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
No disclaimers apply.
DoD 358

I support www.TheGrotonLine.com, hyperlocal news for Groton MA.


On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Jeff Coatsworth
<***@jonassoftware.com> wrote:
> I’ve been running Win7 64bit with FM11 for some time now with my FM files on
> our network drive with no problems or crashes at all. I think the trick is
> to have a large amount of RAM installed (at least 8 GB) and lots of spare
> space on your hard drive for temp files. You may find that you need to
> implement some sort of source control to check out/in files from your server
> to your local drive.
>
>
>
> From: framers-***@lists.frameusers.com
> [mailto:framers-***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Ken Poshedly
> Sent: August-08-13 11:54 AM
> To: FrameMaker Users List
> Subject: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!
>
>
>
> Due to the addition of 2 new contract writers and the replacement of the
> hard drive in an existing terminal in my department, we're now stuck with
> Windows 7 and FrameMaker 11 on those three platforms for the past month or
> so.
>
> And it's been nothing but problems ever since, with unpredictable crashes on
> the desktop computers used by the two contract writers, even though all
> three FM 11 platforms have all the Adobe patches.
>
>
>
> One thing which does seem consistent is that FM11 does not seem to work well
> with files located on our network server, yet that is really the method
> here. Symptoms may include _extremely_ long times to open, save and close
> files and MAY include the abovementioned FrameMaker crashes, though we have
> not yet confirmed that.
>
>
>
> The "fix" is for the contract writers to copy files from our 4-terrabyte
> network drive onto external hard drives cabled to their terminals and for my
> coworker to copy files directly onto his computer's internal hard drive;
> then copy the revised file back into place in its location on the network
> drive.
>
> The two contract writer desktop computers have ridiculously internal small
> hard drives. (One is 29 megabytes and the other is 185 megabytes I've been
> told.)
>
>
>
> Me? I'm happy as a clam with Windows XP and FrameMaker 8 working across the
> network with no FM crashes or other problems -- though I do have to suffer
> through the long times to open, save and close files because we now must
> embed all our graphics instead of referencing them. (I've boohoo'd about
> that here in the past, so I'll not repeat the faulty reasoning for it once
> again.)
>
>
>
> But doom is in my future, as all four of us are soon to get new platforms
> with Windows 7 and FM 11.
>
> This I really dread.
>
> Who else out there is having what seems to be incompatibility problems with
> platforms equipped with FM 11 and Windows 7 and how have you gotten around
> those problems?
>
> Off-list accounts, etc, are fine.
>
> -- Ken in Atlanta
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as ***@gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to ***@lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-***@lists.frameusers.com
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>
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> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>

[Art Campbell]

One more thing... .are the files you're working on in the FM11 format?
And if they were converted from an earlier version, have you
MIF-washed them to ensure they're clean?


Art Campbell
***@gmail.com
"... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
No disclaimers apply.
DoD 358

I support www.TheGrotonLine.com, hyperlocal news for Groton MA.


On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 9:26 AM, Art Campbell <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd second Jeff's recommendations, but IMHO, most of the problems
> you're seeing could be the result of network permissions differences
> between the server and the workstations. Are all the owners in the
> same group, does that group exist on the server AND the workstations,
> and do all members of the group have local (workstation) admin
> privileges?
>
> Also, if the workstations are connecting via wireless or VPN, that
> adds another layer of potential hiccups.
>
> And finally, if your network is, perhaps, not a fairly modern setup
> with good throughput, it may be slowing things down.
>
>
> Art Campbell
> ***@gmail.com
> "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
> Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
> No disclaimers apply.
> DoD 358
>
> I support www.TheGrotonLine.com, hyperlocal news for Groton MA.
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Jeff Coatsworth
> <***@jonassoftware.com> wrote:
>> I’ve been running Win7 64bit with FM11 for some time now with my FM files on
>> our network drive with no problems or crashes at all. I think the trick is
>> to have a large amount of RAM installed (at least 8 GB) and lots of spare
>> space on your hard drive for temp files. You may find that you need to
>> implement some sort of source control to check out/in files from your server
>> to your local drive.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: framers-***@lists.frameusers.com
>> [mailto:framers-***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Ken Poshedly
>> Sent: August-08-13 11:54 AM
>> To: FrameMaker Users List
>> Subject: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!
>>
>>
>>
>> Due to the addition of 2 new contract writers and the replacement of the
>> hard drive in an existing terminal in my department, we're now stuck with
>> Windows 7 and FrameMaker 11 on those three platforms for the past month or
>> so.
>>
>> And it's been nothing but problems ever since, with unpredictable crashes on
>> the desktop computers used by the two contract writers, even though all
>> three FM 11 platforms have all the Adobe patches.
>>
>>
>>
>> One thing which does seem consistent is that FM11 does not seem to work well
>> with files located on our network server, yet that is really the method
>> here. Symptoms may include _extremely_ long times to open, save and close
>> files and MAY include the abovementioned FrameMaker crashes, though we have
>> not yet confirmed that.
>>
>>
>>
>> The "fix" is for the contract writers to copy files from our 4-terrabyte
>> network drive onto external hard drives cabled to their terminals and for my
>> coworker to copy files directly onto his computer's internal hard drive;
>> then copy the revised file back into place in its location on the network
>> drive.
>>
>> The two contract writer desktop computers have ridiculously internal small
>> hard drives. (One is 29 megabytes and the other is 185 megabytes I've been
>> told.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Me? I'm happy as a clam with Windows XP and FrameMaker 8 working across the
>> network with no FM crashes or other problems -- though I do have to suffer
>> through the long times to open, save and close files because we now must
>> embed all our graphics instead of referencing them. (I've boohoo'd about
>> that here in the past, so I'll not repeat the faulty reasoning for it once
>> again.)
>>
>>
>>
>> But doom is in my future, as all four of us are soon to get new platforms
>> with Windows 7 and FM 11.
>>
>> This I really dread.
>>
>> Who else out there is having what seems to be incompatibility problems with
>> platforms equipped with FM 11 and Windows 7 and how have you gotten around
>> those problems?
>>
>> Off-list accounts, etc, are fine.
>>
>> -- Ken in Atlanta
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> You are currently subscribed to framers as ***@gmail.com.
>>
>> Send list messages to ***@lists.frameusers.com.
>>
>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>> framers-***@lists.frameusers.com
>> or visit
>> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com
>>
>> Send administrative questions to ***@frameusers.com. Visit
>> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>>

[Rick Quatro]

Hi Ken,



I would be tempted to do an informal "downgrade" and have all of the writers
use FrameMaker 8. I am running FrameMaker 8 with Windows 7 with no problems.
In my opinion, FrameMaker 8 is still the "gold" version of FrameMaker as far
as speed and stability.



Otherwise, make sure the writers have plenty of RAM. In my opinion, 8 GB is
the minimum. This may help with the performance problems.



Rick



Rick Quatro

Carmen Publishing Inc.

585-283-5045

***@frameexpert.com







From: framers-***@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Ken Poshedly
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2013 11:54 AM
To: FrameMaker Users List
Subject: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!



Due to the addition of 2 new contract writers and the replacement of the
hard drive in an existing terminal in my department, we're now stuck with
Windows 7 and FrameMaker 11 on those three platforms for the past month or
so.

And it's been nothing but problems ever since, with unpredictable crashes on
the desktop computers used by the two contract writers, even though all
three FM 11 platforms have all the Adobe patches.



One thing which does seem consistent is that FM11 does not seem to work well
with files located on our network server, yet that is really the method
here. Symptoms may include _extremely_ long times to open, save and close
files and MAY include the abovementioned FrameMaker crashes, though we have
not yet confirmed that.



The "fix" is for the contract writers to copy files from our 4-terrabyte
network drive onto external hard drives cabled to their terminals and for my
coworker to copy files directly onto his computer's internal hard drive;
then copy the revised file back into place in its location on the network
drive.

The two contract writer desktop computers have ridiculously internal small
hard drives. (One is 29 megabytes and the other is 185 megabytes I've been
told.)



Me? I'm happy as a clam with Windows XP and FrameMaker 8 working across the
network with no FM crashes or other problems -- though I do have to suffer
through the long times to open, save and close files because we now must
embed all our graphics instead of referencing them. (I've boohoo'd about
that here in the past, so I'll not repeat the faulty reasoning for it once
again.)



But doom is in my future, as all four of us are soon to get new platforms
with Windows 7 and FM 11.

This I really dread.

Who else out there is having what seems to be incompatibility problems with
platforms equipped with FM 11 and Windows 7 and how have you gotten around
those problems?

Off-list accounts, etc, are fine.

-- Ken in Atlanta

[Jeremy H. Griffith]

On Fri, 9 Aug 2013 09:32:32 -0400, "Rick Quatro" <***@rickquatro.com> wrote:

>I would be tempted to do an informal "downgrade" and have all of the writers
>use FrameMaker 8. I am running FrameMaker 8 with Windows 7 with no problems.
>In my opinion, FrameMaker 8 is still the "gold" version of FrameMaker as far
>as speed and stability.

I totally agree with Rick. I've seen nothing in any
release after 8 that is really needed, and a lot that
is broken that worked before. I have FM9, and was in
the betas for 10 and 11, but still use 8 for real work
myself.

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
<***@omsys.com> http://mif2go.com/

[Helen Borrie]

At 01:32 a.m. 10/08/2013, Rick Quatro wrote:
>
>Otherwise, make sure the writers have plenty of RAM. In my opinion, 8 GB is the minimum. This may help with the performance problems.
>

More than 4 GB of RAM is of absolutely no use for running a 32-bit application, whether it be on a 32-bit or 64-bit operating system.

Helen

[Rick Quatro]

True, but: if you are running anything else at the same time as FrameMaker
(Outlook, web browsers, Photoshop, etc.), you want as close to 4 GB
available for FrameMaker. If you start with 4 GB, it is not going to be
enough. RAM is cheap. I have 12 GB and rarely experience random crashes.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: framers-***@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Helen Borrie
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 2:24 PM
To: 'FrameMaker Users List'
Subject: RE: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!

At 01:32 a.m. 10/08/2013, Rick Quatro wrote:
>
>Otherwise, make sure the writers have plenty of RAM. In my opinion, 8 GB is
the minimum. This may help with the performance problems.
>

More than 4 GB of RAM is of absolutely no use for running a 32-bit
application, whether it be on a 32-bit or 64-bit operating system.

Helen

[Fred Ridder]

But the application is not the only thing using memory. Even if a 32-bit application can only address 4 GB, any additional installed memory can still be used by the OS and by other processes if a 64-bit OS is being used. Having more than 4 GB means that a 32-bit application will have a lot less contention for memory resources even if it can only access 1/2 or 1/3 of the total memory available to the OS.

-Fred Ridder

> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2013 06:23:55 +1200
> To: ***@lists.frameusers.com
> From: ***@iinet.net.au
> Subject: RE: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!
>
> At 01:32 a.m. 10/08/2013, Rick Quatro wrote:
> >
> >Otherwise, make sure the writers have plenty of RAM. In my opinion, 8 GB is the minimum. This may help with the performance problems.
> >
>
> More than 4 GB of RAM is of absolutely no use for running a 32-bit application, whether it be on a 32-bit or 64-bit operating system.
>
> Helen

[John Posada]

Ive been on FM11 and Win7 since maybe Feb and have not crashed once.
On Aug 9, 2013 12:50 AM, "Ken Poshedly" <***@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> Due to the addition of 2 new contract writers and the replacement of the
> hard drive in an existing terminal in my department, we're now stuck with
> Windows 7 and FrameMaker 11 on those three platforms for the past month or
> so.
>
> And it's been nothing but problems ever since, with unpredictable crashes
> on the desktop computers used by the two contract writers, even though all
> three FM 11 platforms have all the Adobe patches.
>
> One thing which does seem consistent is that FM11 does not seem to work
> well with files located on our network server, yet that is really the
> method here. Symptoms may include _extremely_ long times to open, save and
> close files and MAY include the abovementioned FrameMaker crashes, though
> we have not yet confirmed that.
>
> The "fix" is for the contract writers to copy files from our 4-terrabyte
> network drive onto external hard drives cabled to their terminals and for
> my coworker to copy files directly onto his computer's internal hard drive;
> then copy the revised file back into place in its location on the network
> drive.
>
> The two contract writer desktop computers have ridiculously internal small
> hard drives. (One is 29 megabytes and the other is 185 megabytes I've been
> told.)
>
> Me? I'm happy as a clam with Windows XP and FrameMaker 8 working across
> the network with no FM crashes or other problems -- though I do have to
> suffer through the long times to open, save and close files because we now
> must embed all our graphics instead of referencing them. (I've boohoo'd
> about that here in the past, so I'll not repeat the faulty reasoning for it
> once again.)
>
> But doom is in my future, as all four of us are soon to get new platforms
> with Windows 7 and FM 11.
>
> This I really dread.
>
> Who else out there is having what seems to be incompatibility problems
> with platforms equipped with FM 11 and Windows 7 and how have you gotten
> around those problems?
>
> Off-list accounts, etc, are fine.
>
> -- Ken in Atlanta
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as ***@gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to ***@lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-***@lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/jposada99%40gmail.com
>
> Send administrative questions to ***@frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>
>

[Craig Ede]

You are one tremendously lucky person to avoid a crash for that long. FM
crashes on me a couple of times a week on average. How much RAM do you have
on your system?



On the SUN workstations we never saw a crash. But that was FMv5.5.



Craig

Win7, 8GB



From: framers-***@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of John Posada
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 3:40 PM
To: Ken Poshedly
Cc: FrameUsers List
Subject: Re: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!



Ive been on FM11 and Win7 since maybe Feb and have not crashed once.

[Art Campbell]

I've been running the combo for a couple years on multiple systems and
crashes are really few and far between,..
Very stable, IMHO.

ONE OTHER factor -- if you have aggressive anti-virus software
enabled, that's one other point of potential failure. Why? If your
book or document includes multiple files in networked locations OR
simply big files, a poorly designed or implemented virus scanner will
scan each file each time it's opened and one FM document or book will
typically contain lots of files. Add that to network traffic.... and
it'll slow things down enough to crash.

It's a problem that's easy to test though -- just disable it for a while.

Art Campbell
***@gmail.com
"... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
No disclaimers apply.
DoD 358

I support www.TheGrotonLine.com, hyperlocal news for Groton MA.


On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Craig Ede <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> You are one tremendously lucky person to avoid a crash for that long. FM
> crashes on me a couple of times a week on average. How much RAM do you have
> on your system?
>
>
>
> On the SUN workstations we never saw a crash. But that was FMv5.5.
>
>
>
> Craig
>
> Win7, 8GB
>
>
>
> From: framers-***@lists.frameusers.com
> [mailto:framers-***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of John Posada
> Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 3:40 PM
> To: Ken Poshedly
> Cc: FrameUsers List
> Subject: Re: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!
>
>
>
> Ive been on FM11 and Win7 since maybe Feb and have not crashed once.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as ***@gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to ***@lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-***@lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com
>
> Send administrative questions to ***@frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>

[Matt Sullivan]

I run FrameMaker so much, and crash Fm11 so infrequently, it's pretty fair to say it never crashes. The few times I see a crash it is the result of :
a specific file which will not open (either a problematic graphic, or a "corrupted" .fm file)
a missing resource (font, graphic, unresolved xref) which presents a user interaction dialog while updating a linked Rh project (or any other similar process)

Once you enable all missing resource alerts in your prefs, AND you can open and update your entire book without error messages, then you can start narrowing down the file and or graphic that is causing your issue. Isolate the offending files from "good" content, and keep splitting the "bad" files in half to narrow down the problem.

NOTE: Those that can remember 25 MHz computers will recall that we didn't always have immediate computer processing gratification!!! When your application becomes unresponsive, take the opportunity to (insert your Zen activity of choice) and allow Fm (or other app) to either complete the process, or present an actual crash message. Failure to allow Fm to complete a process could itself be what causes an actual problem with the file.
FWIW, I'm running Fm on a lean system: 4Gb RAM on my MacBook Air, shared between the Mac OS and Win 7. I routinely run any and all apps concurrently without fear of crashing. I do this for online classes, for Adobe-sponsored webinars, and many other situations where crashing would impact my ability to do my job, and very seriously and negatively impact my clientele. And I don't crash.


-Matt

Matt R. Sullivan
co-author Publishing Fundamentals: Unstructured FrameMaker 11
P: 714.798.7596 | C: 714.585.2335 | ***@mattrsullivan.com

@mattrsullivan LinkedIn facebook mattrsullivan.com

On Aug 10, 2013, at 11:02 AM, Art Campbell <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've been running the combo for a couple years on multiple systems and
> crashes are really few and far between,..
> Very stable, IMHO.
>
> ONE OTHER factor -- if you have aggressive anti-virus software
> enabled, that's one other point of potential failure. Why? If your
> book or document includes multiple files in networked locations OR
> simply big files, a poorly designed or implemented virus scanner will
> scan each file each time it's opened and one FM document or book will
> typically contain lots of files. Add that to network traffic.... and
> it'll slow things down enough to crash.
>
> It's a problem that's easy to test though -- just disable it for a while.
>
> Art Campbell
> ***@gmail.com
> "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
> Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
> No disclaimers apply.
> DoD 358
>
> I support www.TheGrotonLine.com, hyperlocal news for Groton MA.
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Craig Ede <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> You are one tremendously lucky person to avoid a crash for that long. FM
>> crashes on me a couple of times a week on average. How much RAM do you have
>> on your system?
>>
>>
>>
>> On the SUN workstations we never saw a crash. But that was FMv5.5.
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> Win7, 8GB
>>
>>
>>
>> From: framers-***@lists.frameusers.com
>> [mailto:framers-***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of John Posada
>> Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 3:40 PM
>> To: Ken Poshedly
>> Cc: FrameUsers List
>> Subject: Re: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!
>>
>>
>>
>> Ive been on FM11 and Win7 since maybe Feb and have not crashed once.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>> You are currently subscribed to framers as ***@gmail.com.
>>
>> Send list messages to ***@lists.frameusers.com.
>>
>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>> framers-***@lists.frameusers.com
>> or visit
>> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com
>>
>> Send administrative questions to ***@frameusers.com. Visit
>> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as ***@mattrsullivan.com.
>
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> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
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>
> Send administrative questions to ***@frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

[Alan Houser]

I think it's fair to say that FrameMaker never crashes _for you_.
However, given my (somewhat different) experience with the stability of
FrameMaker 11, I'm sensitive about having our concerns dismissed. :-)

Stability of FrameMaker seems to vary greatly depending on the source
files being edited, authoring mode, and system environment (even on
systems that meet and exceed FrameMaker requirements). If you haven't
had the privilege of working on a "crashy" project, you're lucky.

-Alan

On 8/11/13 12:07 PM, Matt Sullivan wrote:
> I run FrameMaker so much, and crash Fm11 so infrequently, it's pretty
> fair to say it never crashes. The few times I see a crash it is the
> result of :
>
> * a specific file which will not open (either a problematic graphic,
> or a "corrupted" .fm file)
> * a missing resource (font, graphic, unresolved xref) which presents
> a user interaction dialog while updating a linked Rh project (or
> any other similar process)
>
>
> Once you enable all missing resource alerts in your prefs, AND you can
> open and update your entire book without error messages, then you can
> start narrowing down the file and or graphic that is causing your
> issue. Isolate the offending files from "good" content, and keep
> splitting the "bad" files in half to narrow down the problem.
>
> NOTE: Those that can remember 25 MHz computers will recall that we
> didn't always have immediate computer processing gratification!!! When
> your application becomes unresponsive, take the opportunity to (insert
> your Zen activity of choice) and allow Fm (or other app) to either
> complete the process, or present an actual crash message. Failure to
> allow Fm to complete a process could itself be what causes an actual
> problem with the file.
>
> FWIW, I'm running Fm on a lean system: 4Gb RAM on my MacBook Air,
> shared between the Mac OS and Win 7. I routinely run any and all apps
> concurrently without fear of crashing. I do this for online classes,
> for Adobe-sponsored webinars, and many other situations where crashing
> would impact my ability to do my job, and very seriously and
> negatively impact my clientele. And I don't crash.
>
>
> -Matt
>
>

[Syed Zaeem Hosain ([e-mail])]

To add to the chorus: I have been using Windows 7 (64 bit) and FrameMaker 11 for over two years now - that OS should not be a reason for concern per se. So, if you all are getting new systems with fully patched versions of Windows 7 and FrameMaker 11, you should be fine.

And, as others have also mentioned, even though FrameMaker is a 32 bit application, the OS _can_ avoid having to swap processes to disk if you have a 64-bit OS installed and lots of memory. Of course, if you are planning to run 32-bit Windows 7 (why?), having more than 4GB of RAM is useless in that case.

Like other people, I suspect that your crash issues are related to the network access. If some file (a document part in a book, included text file, referenced image file, etc.) is on the network server, you can have problems if the network or remote server is slow in responding in any way.

So, the fix you mention is the right thing. If there is enough space left to copy all the FrameMaker and image, included files for a particular book onto to your local drive, edit, and then replace after the session is done (ideally using a check-in/check-out system to avoid multiple people editing the same file), then this would be the way to proceed.

Z

P.S. By the way, the "29 Megabyte" and "185 Megabyte" drives are _impossibly_ low. Are you sure you did not mean "Gigabyte"? Or something else?


From: framers-***@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Ken Poshedly
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2013 8:54 AM
To: FrameMaker Users List
Subject: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!

Due to the addition of 2 new contract writers and the replacement of the hard drive in an existing terminal in my department, we're now stuck with Windows 7 and FrameMaker 11 on those three platforms for the past month or so.

And it's been nothing but problems ever since, with unpredictable crashes on the desktop computers used by the two contract writers, even though all three FM 11 platforms have all the Adobe patches.

One thing which does seem consistent is that FM11 does not seem to work well with files located on our network server, yet that is really the method here. Symptoms may include _extremely_ long times to open, save and close files and MAY include the abovementioned FrameMaker crashes, though we have not yet confirmed that.

The "fix" is for the contract writers to copy files from our 4-terrabyte network drive onto external hard drives cabled to their terminals and for my coworker to copy files directly onto his computer's internal hard drive; then copy the revised file back into place in its location on the network drive.

The two contract writer desktop computers have ridiculously internal small hard drives. (One is 29 megabytes and the other is 185 megabytes I've been told.)

Me? I'm happy as a clam with Windows XP and FrameMaker 8 working across the network with no FM crashes or other problems -- though I do have to suffer through the long times to open, save and close files because we now must embed all our graphics instead of referencing them. (I've boohoo'd about that here in the past, so I'll not repeat the faulty reasoning for it once again.)

But doom is in my future, as all four of us are soon to get new platforms with Windows 7 and FM 11.

This I really dread.

Who else out there is having what seems to be incompatibility problems with platforms equipped with FM 11 and Windows 7 and how have you gotten around those problems?

Off-list accounts, etc, are fine.

-- Ken in Atlanta

[John Sgammato]

Hi Ken,
I have used FM11 unstructured on Win7 with files on the network since FM11
was released. I have no problems.
Maybe your files are too big with the embedded ages?


On Thursday, August 8, 2013, Ken Poshedly wrote:

> Due to the addition of 2 new contract writers and the replacement of the
> hard drive in an existing terminal in my department, we're now stuck with
> Windows 7 and FrameMaker 11 on those three platforms for the past month or
> so.
>
> And it's been nothing but problems ever since, with unpredictable crashes
> on the desktop computers used by the two contract writers, even though all
> three FM 11 platforms have all the Adobe patches.
>
> One thing which does seem consistent is that FM11 does not seem to work
> well with files located on our network server, yet that is really the
> method here. Symptoms may include _extremely_ long times to open, save and
> close files and MAY include the abovementioned FrameMaker crashes, though
> we have not yet confirmed that.
>
> The "fix" is for the contract writers to copy files from our 4-terrabyte
> network drive onto external hard drives cabled to their terminals and for
> my coworker to copy files directly onto his computer's internal hard drive;
> then copy the revised file back into place in its location on the network
> drive.
>
> The two contract writer desktop computers have ridiculously internal small
> hard drives. (One is 29 megabytes and the other is 185 megabytes I've been
> told.)
>
> Me? I'm happy as a clam with Windows XP and FrameMaker 8 working across
> the network with no FM crashes or other problems -- though I do have to
> suffer through the long times to open, save and close files because we now
> must embed all our graphics instead of referencing them. (I've boohoo'd
> about that here in the past, so I'll not repeat the faulty reasoning for it
> once again.)
>
> But doom is in my future, as all four of us are soon to get new platforms
> with Windows 7 and FM 11.
>
> This I really dread.
>
> Who else out there is having what seems to be incompatibility problems
> with platforms equipped with FM 11 and Windows 7 and how have you gotten
> around those problems?
>
> Off-list accounts, etc, are fine.
>
> -- Ken in Atlanta
>


--









*John Sgammato *

Documentation Architect

*e* ***@actifio.com

*w* [phone]

*Recover anything instantly for up to 90% less than you're paying now.*

[Joseph Lorenzini]

Hi Ken,

One option that you have is to put your files in a SVN repository. If you
do this, then checked out files will be local to the person's computer and
there's no issue with network latency etc. You can certainly do the check
out to an external hard drive to if that's needed. Once the user is done
modifying the files, they just commit them with a click of a button to the
repository.

I have been using SVN with FrameMaker for years and its worked fine without
a problem. I love it because none of the network latency issues that are
associated with later versions of Frame affect you -- because the network
is almost completely removed from the equation. It also makes working over
VPN a breeze, where i'd rather eat broken class then try to edit FM files
on a NFS through VPN.

If you want additional details, let me know.

Sincerely
Joesph Lorenzini

[Davis, David]

I'd second the advice that anti-virus software is something to look for as a culprit for these crashes! (I must say that, in corporate network environments, I've had orders of magnitude greater losses in productivity from damned anti-virus software than from ever getting an actual virus :)

Windows 7 is a very robust, stable, well-respected operating system... assuming you have it fully patched and up-to-date from Windows Update, I wouldn't expect it to be the problem here.

As for RAM - well, 8 gigabytes is a helluva lot! And surely, FrameMaker is only a 32 bit program? So it cannot address more than a couple of GB at a time - throwing more RAM at it is not going to make any difference.
You can use Windows 7's own Control Panel tools (even just the Performance tab in Task Manager) to see how much RAM you're actually using, which will give you a better clue as to whether that is an issue on your machines.

Be sure and send all your crash logs to ***@adobe.com - they do read them!

Another suggestion is to pester your IT people to check that things like the drivers for the network cards on your PCs are up to date - corporate IT environments generally tend not to bother with updates like those, but manufacturers do issue a lot of driver updates and these can have bug fixes and performance enhancements, and they can make a difference when you're opening massive FM files across a network...

Good luck! :)

David

*** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys plc, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com.


You may contact Invensys plc on [phone] or e-mail ***@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates).

[Davis, David]

Fred, one of the most basic functions of an operating system is to be able to manage memory (without crashing!) :)
Simply because applications might all want more memory on the go at one time than is physically available, should not mean that anything crashes! It gets paged in and out. Windows 7, indeed, has more robust sandboxing of memory usage between apps than Windows XP.
The idea that "you gotta have 8GB of RAM otherwise Frame will crash" is a bit sweeping!
David


Message: 3
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2013 14:37:29 -0400
From: Fred Ridder <***@hotmail.com>
To: Helen Borrie <***@iinet.net.au>,
"***@lists.frameusers.com" <***@lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: RE: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!
Message-ID: <BAY171-***@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

But the application is not the only thing using memory. Even if a 32-bit application can only address 4 GB, any additional installed memory can still be used by the OS and by other processes if a 64-bit OS is being used. Having more than 4 GB means that a 32-bit application will have a lot less contention for memory resources even if it can only access 1/2 or 1/3 of the total memory available to the OS.

-Fred Ridder

> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2013 06:23:55 +1200
> To: ***@lists.frameusers.com
> From: ***@iinet.net.au
> Subject: RE: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!
>
> At 01:32 a.m. 10/08/2013, Rick Quatro wrote:
> >
> >Otherwise, make sure the writers have plenty of RAM. In my opinion, 8 GB is the minimum. This may help with the performance problems.
> >
>
> More than 4 GB of RAM is of absolutely no use for running a 32-bit application, whether it be on a 32-bit or 64-bit operating system.
>
> Helen




*** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys plc, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com.


You may contact Invensys plc on [phone] or e-mail ***@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates).

[Rick Quatro]

You can disagree if you want, but those of us with heavy-duty FrameMaker
experience know that, in general, more RAM means less FrameMaker crashes.
With the size (and number) of applications increasing, and the low cost of
RAM, there is no reason not to run with at least 8 GB.

It may not be a low amount of RAM causing the crashes, but this should be
one of the first places to look.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: framers-***@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Davis, David
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 5:30 AM
To: ***@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!

Fred, one of the most basic functions of an operating system is to be able
to manage memory (without crashing!) :)
Simply because applications might all want more memory on the go at one time
than is physically available, should not mean that anything crashes! It gets
paged in and out. Windows 7, indeed, has more robust sandboxing of memory
usage between apps than Windows XP.
The idea that "you gotta have 8GB of RAM otherwise Frame will crash" is a
bit sweeping!
David

[Davis, David]

Well, so look! :)

Open the Windows 7 Control Panel, and in the Search field at the top, get it to find you 'Resource Monitor'
Go the "Memory" tab and you have a wealth of info on what RAM is being used by which processes.

If you find something funny there, it is more likely to cut ice with the company's IT procurement folks.

David


-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Quatro [mailto:***@rickquatro.com]
Sent: 13 August 2013 14:58
To: Davis, David; ***@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!

You can disagree if you want, but those of us with heavy-duty FrameMaker experience know that, in general, more RAM means less FrameMaker crashes.
With the size (and number) of applications increasing, and the low cost of RAM, there is no reason not to run with at least 8 GB.

It may not be a low amount of RAM causing the crashes, but this should be one of the first places to look.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: framers-***@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Davis, David
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 5:30 AM
To: ***@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!

Fred, one of the most basic functions of an operating system is to be able to manage memory (without crashing!) :) Simply because applications might all want more memory on the go at one time than is physically available, should not mean that anything crashes! It gets
paged in and out. Windows 7, indeed, has more robust sandboxing of memory
usage between apps than Windows XP.
The idea that "you gotta have 8GB of RAM otherwise Frame will crash" is a bit sweeping!
David




*** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys plc, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com.


You may contact Invensys plc on [phone] or e-mail ***@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates).

[Fred Ridder]

You seem to have missed my point completely.

The purpose of my posting was to refute the categorical statement made by another poster that "More than 4 GB of RAM is of absolutely no use for running a 32-bit application, whether it be on a 32-bit or 64-bit operating system."

Of course it is true that one of the most basic functions of an OS is memory management. I said nothing that disagrees with that.

-Fred Ridder

> From: ***@invensys.com
> To: ***@lists.frameusers.com
> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 04:29:32 -0500
> Subject: RE: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!
>
> Fred, one of the most basic functions of an operating system is to be able to manage memory (without crashing!) :)
> Simply because applications might all want more memory on the go at one time than is physically available, should not mean that anything crashes! It gets paged in and out. Windows 7, indeed, has more robust sandboxing of memory usage between apps than Windows XP.
> The idea that "you gotta have 8GB of RAM otherwise Frame will crash" is a bit sweeping!
> David
>
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2013 14:37:29 -0400
> From: Fred Ridder <***@hotmail.com>
> To: Helen Borrie <***@iinet.net.au>,
> "***@lists.frameusers.com" <***@lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: RE: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!
> Message-ID: <BAY171-***@phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> But the application is not the only thing using memory. Even if a 32-bit application can only address 4 GB, any additional installed memory can still be used by the OS and by other processes if a 64-bit OS is being used. Having more than 4 GB means that a 32-bit application will have a lot less contention for memory resources even if it can only access 1/2 or 1/3 of the total memory available to the OS.
>
> -Fred Ridder
>
> > Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2013 06:23:55 +1200
> > To: ***@lists.frameusers.com
> > From: ***@iinet.net.au
> > Subject: RE: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!
> >
> > At 01:32 a.m. 10/08/2013, Rick Quatro wrote:
> > >
> > >Otherwise, make sure the writers have plenty of RAM. In my opinion, 8 GB is the minimum. This may help with the performance problems.
> > >
> >
> > More than 4 GB of RAM is of absolutely no use for running a 32-bit application, whether it be on a 32-bit or 64-bit operating system.
> >
> > Helen
>
>
>
>
> *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys plc, which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com.
>
>
> You may contact Invensys plc on [phone] or e-mail ***@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates).
>
>
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[Shmuel Wolfson]

<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">4 GB of RAM may be of no use to
FrameMaker if it's the only application open, but if you have
other applications open and you only have 4 GB, wouldn't those
other application be competing for the same 4 GB? In which case,
if you have 8 GB you are better off.<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133
</pre>
<br>
On 13-Aug-13 5:26 PM, Fred Ridder wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:BAY171-***@phx.gbl"
type="cite">
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;
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}
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{
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<div dir="ltr">You seem to have missed my point completely. <br>
<br>
The purpose of my posting was to refute the categorical
statement made by another poster that "More than 4 GB of RAM is
of absolutely no use for running a 32-bit application, whether
it be on a 32-bit or 64-bit operating system." <br>
<br>
Of course it is true that one of the most basic functions of an
OS is memory management. I said nothing that disagrees with
that.<br>
<br>
-Fred Ridder<br>
<br>
<div>&gt; From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:***@invensys.com">***@invensys.com</a><br>
&gt; To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:***@lists.frameusers.com">***@lists.frameusers.com</a><br>
&gt; Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 04:29:32 -0500<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM! <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Fred, one of the most basic functions of an operating
system is to be able to manage memory (without crashing!) :) <br>
&gt; Simply because applications might all want more memory on
the go at one time than is physically available, should not
mean that anything crashes! It gets paged in and out. Windows
7, indeed, has more robust sandboxing of memory usage between
apps than Windows XP. <br>
&gt; The idea that "you gotta have 8GB of RAM otherwise Frame
will crash" is a bit sweeping!<br>
&gt; David<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Message: 3<br>
&gt; Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2013 14:37:29 -0400<br>
&gt; From: Fred Ridder <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:***@hotmail.com">&lt;***@hotmail.com&gt;</a><br>
&gt; To: Helen Borrie <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:***@iinet.net.au">&lt;***@iinet.net.au&gt;</a>,<br>
&gt; <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:***@lists.frameusers.com">"***@lists.frameusers.com"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:***@lists.frameusers.com">&lt;***@lists.frameusers.com&gt;</a><br>
&gt; Subject: RE: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!<br>
&gt; Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:BAY171-***@phx.gbl">&lt;BAY171-***@phx.gbl&gt;</a><br>
&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; But the application is not the only thing using memory.
Even if a 32-bit application can only address 4 GB, any
additional installed memory can still be used by the OS and by
other processes if a 64-bit OS is being used. Having more than
4 GB means that a 32-bit application will have a lot less
contention for memory resources even if it can only access 1/2
or 1/3 of the total memory available to the OS.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -Fred Ridder<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2013 06:23:55 +1200<br>
&gt; &gt; To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:***@lists.frameusers.com">***@lists.frameusers.com</a><br>
&gt; &gt; From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:***@iinet.net.au">***@iinet.net.au</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; At 01:32 a.m. 10/08/2013, Rick Quatro wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;Otherwise, make sure the writers have plenty of
RAM. In my opinion, 8 GB is the minimum. This may help with
the performance problems.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; More than 4 GB of RAM is of absolutely no use for
running a 32-bit application, whether it be on a 32-bit or
64-bit operating system.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Helen<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any
associated or attached files, is intended solely for the
individual or entity to which it is addressed. This e-mail is
confidential and may well also be legally privileged. If you
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Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then
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person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys
Group, owned by Invensys plc, which is a company registered in
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Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered number 166023).
For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys
Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; You may contact Invensys plc on [phone] or
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Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates) and the
recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates).<br>
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[Davis, David]

Well, you're getting into the details of how the operating system works. It's best to try and look up the facts about this kind of thing rather than make guesses and reasonable assumptions (as computers are not always reasonable ;)

Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WoW64 and http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa384249(VS.85).aspx for starters.
A cursory read of that tends to suggest that the WoW subsystem provides a (collective?) virtual 32-bit memory space for the applications running on it...
This is a pretty sophisticated functionality to provide memory management.
One might expect that one of its features is not "applications will crash regularly if there isn't at least 8GB available", as this would be a serious bug.
Your mileage may vary.


Regards,

David Davis
Technical Author


From: Shmuel Wolfson [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: 14 August 2013 08:18
To: Fred Ridder
Cc: Davis, David; ***@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!

4 GB of RAM may be of no use to FrameMaker if it's the only application open, but if you have other applications open and you only have 4 GB, wouldn't those other application be competing for the same 4 GB? In which case, if you have 8 GB you are better off.



Regards,

Shmuel Wolfson

Technical Writer

052-763-7133

On 13-Aug-13 5:26 PM, Fred Ridder wrote:
You seem to have missed my point completely.

The purpose of my posting was to refute the categorical statement made by another poster that "More than 4 GB of RAM is of absolutely no use for running a 32-bit application, whether it be on a 32-bit or 64-bit operating system."

Of course it is true that one of the most basic functions of an OS is memory management. I said nothing that disagrees with that.

-Fred Ridder
> From: ***@invensys.com<mailto:***@invensys.com>
> To: ***@lists.frameusers.com<mailto:***@lists.frameusers.com>
> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2013 04:29:32 -0500
> Subject: RE: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!
>
> Fred, one of the most basic functions of an operating system is to be able to manage memory (without crashing!) :)
> Simply because applications might all want more memory on the go at one time than is physically available, should not mean that anything crashes! It gets paged in and out. Windows 7, indeed, has more robust sandboxing of memory usage between apps than Windows XP.
> The idea that "you gotta have 8GB of RAM otherwise Frame will crash" is a bit sweeping!
> David
>
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2013 14:37:29 -0400
> From: Fred Ridder <***@hotmail.com><mailto:***@hotmail.com>
> To: Helen Borrie <***@iinet.net.au><mailto:***@iinet.net.au>,
> "***@lists.frameusers.com"<mailto:***@lists.frameusers.com> <***@lists.frameusers.com><mailto:***@lists.frameusers.com>
> Subject: RE: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!
> Message-ID: <BAY171-***@phx.gbl><mailto:BAY171-***@phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> But the application is not the only thing using memory. Even if a 32-bit application can only address 4 GB, any additional installed memory can still be used by the OS and by other processes if a 64-bit OS is being used. Having more than 4 GB means that a 32-bit application will have a lot less contention for memory resources even if it can only access 1/2 or 1/3 of the total memory available to the OS.
>
> -Fred Ridder
>
> > Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2013 06:23:55 +1200
> > To: ***@lists.frameusers.com<mailto:***@lists.frameusers.com>
> > From: ***@iinet.net.au<mailto:***@iinet.net.au>
> > Subject: RE: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!
> >
> > At 01:32 a.m. 10/08/2013, Rick Quatro wrote:
> > >
> > >Otherwise, make sure the writers have plenty of RAM. In my opinion, 8 GB is the minimum. This may help with the performance problems.
> > >
> >
> > More than 4 GB of RAM is of absolutely no use for running a 32-bit application, whether it be on a 32-bit or 64-bit operating system.
> >
> > Helen
>
>
>
>
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[Coe, David E]

I run FM11 on Win7 Enterprise 32bit, 4gb RAM and also on Win7 Ultimate 64bit, 8gb RAM and suffer few crashes. The majority of crashes I have suffered is when I have a book with .xml children whether I was using a network share or locally. When the .xml files were converted to .fm files, most crashes went away.

.fm files are more of a challenge for me because FM is fairly new product experience and I am used to writing in XML editor view; besides FM11 XML View with auto-validating turned on is very slow. So it is workable.

The other major issue I have had with files on network shares, especially the rules file, I had to make certain the server where the share resides is WEBDAV enabled and the problem went away.

David Coe
Sr. Technical Editor

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From: framers-***@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-***@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Ken Poshedly
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2013 11:54 AM
To: FrameMaker Users List
Subject: Windows 7 + FrameMaker 11 = BOOM!

Due to the addition of 2 new contract writers and the replacement of the hard drive in an existing terminal in my department, we're now stuck with Windows 7 and FrameMaker 11 on those three platforms for the past month or so.

And it's been nothing but problems ever since, with unpredictable crashes on the desktop computers used by the two contract writers, even though all three FM 11 platforms have all the Adobe patches.

One thing which does seem consistent is that FM11 does not seem to work well with files located on our network server, yet that is really the method here. Symptoms may include _extremely_ long times to open, save and close files and MAY include the abovementioned FrameMaker crashes, though we have not yet confirmed that.

The "fix" is for the contract writers to copy files from our 4-terrabyte network drive onto external hard drives cabled to their terminals and for my coworker to copy files directly onto his computer's internal hard drive; then copy the revised file back into place in its location on the network drive.

The two contract writer desktop computers have ridiculously internal small hard drives. (One is 29 megabytes and the other is 185 megabytes I've been told.)

Me? I'm happy as a clam with Windows XP and FrameMaker 8 working across the network with no FM crashes or other problems -- though I do have to suffer through the long times to open, save and close files because we now must embed all our graphics instead of referencing them. (I've boohoo'd about that here in the past, so I'll not repeat the faulty reasoning for it once again.)

But doom is in my future, as all four of us are soon to get new platforms with Windows 7 and FM 11.

This I really dread.

Who else out there is having what seems to be incompatibility problems with platforms equipped with FM 11 and Windows 7 and how have you gotten around those problems?

Off-list accounts, etc, are fine.

-- Ken in Atlanta

[Craig Ede]

Framemaker can take quite a while to do some things, so it's important to
know the difference between a crash and a "FrameMaker is not responding"
message. The latter means "Wait until I complete this task." The former is
accompanied by a crash message and exiting from FrameMaker. Very seldom do I
see crashes that don't have the crash window message (which contains the
opportunity of send the logs to Adobe for analysis to improve the product).

Craig

[Scott Turner]

We operate from network server drive, and have experienced the very same problems while using Win 7 FM 11.

It isn't really a problem with FM, it's a server problem involving latency on the server.

If you look at the resulting files after a crash you may see son with stable, apparently random extensions. These are the open temporary files that FM creates while working in an open file.

The crash occurs when the serve cannot keep up withe file writes.

Thank both Microsoft and your IT Department. Your infrastructure cannot keep up with your companies demand.



On Aug 13, 2013, at 10:57, Craig Ede <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Framemaker can take quite a while to do some things, so it's important to know the difference between a crash and a "FrameMaker is not responding" message. The latter means "Wait until I complete this task." The former is accompanied by a crash message and exiting from FrameMaker. Very seldom do I see crashes that don't have the crash window message (which contains the opportunity of send the logs to Adobe for analysis to improve the product).
> Craig
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[rebecca officer]

We get crashes on FM10 pretty often when manipulating conditional text dialog boxes. Sometimes they crash "cleanly", but sometimes we don't get a crash message etc, FM just freezes. I left one overnight a while ago and it was still frozen the next morning.

(We've tested FM11 and it looks like this bug is fixed. We'll be upgrading soon - hopefully we won't see a whole bunch of new bugs to work around!)

Cheers
Rebecca

>>> Craig Ede <***@hotmail.com> 14/08/13 03:57 >>>

Framemaker can take quite a while to do some things, so it's important to know the difference between a crash and a "FrameMaker is not responding" message. The latter means "Wait until I complete this task." The former is accompanied by a crash message and exiting from FrameMaker. Very seldom do I see crashes that don't have the crash window message (which contains the opportunity of send the logs to Adobe for analysis to improve the product).
Craig


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[Harro de Jong]

Craig Ede wrote:
>
> Framemaker can take quite a while to do some things, so it's important to know
> the difference between a crash and a "FrameMaker is not responding"
> message. The latter means "Wait until I complete this task." The former is
> accompanied by a crash message and exiting from FrameMaker. Very seldom
> do I see crashes that don't have the crash window message (which contains the
> opportunity of send the logs to Adobe for analysis to improve the product).

This is a good point. Windows 7 is much quicker than older Windows versions to stick the label "Not responding" on an application when that application stops updating the UI (because it's busy with something else).
In older versions, when the "Not responding" label appeared, you generally knew your application had crashed. In Windows 7, this isn't true anymore.

Harro de Jong
Triview