Thanks Dave and Dennis for the explanations. I did not consider it this way.
I hope I did not upset you in any ways. I am sorry, I have started to talk
ahead without profound research. I will have to think about it.
This might sound strange but I agree with you.
@Dave can you name one of this group you refer to?
I would like to learn how they have build their project organisation. If
they have such structures they might be close to what AOO needs.
Also I will check out the mailing list. Maybe I can get an insight on how
community build within Apache Foundation is done. I think I have the wrong
picture here.
And while I am at it, is there a picture how our community currently works?
Thanks for all your time. I appreciate you efforts!
All the best
Peter
Dennis E. Hamilton <***@apache.org> schrieb am Sa., 21. Jan. 2017, 02:20:
> Dave Fisher has posted a valuable comment while I was writing this. I
> completely support his views on this topic.
>
> In addition, it seems to me that you propose a change in how the ASF
> itself works.
>
> This is not the place to do that.
>
> I suggest you take such discussion to the ***@community.apache.org
> mailing list.
>
> In addition, even though there is a complaint about it such thing, this
> proposal is also a case of wanting someone [else] to do something. That
> will never get anywhere here.
>
> Any collection of funds for targeted purposes and then commitments to
> delivering on those targets is *not* going to happen here. That is a
> business activity, whether or not there is profit. Members of the ASF
> board have already stated while that will not be done.
>
> More in-line.
>
> Again, I do not speak for the ASF or the AOO PMC. I do notice that,
> although members of the PMC have also participated in this list discussion,
> I see no consideration on the part of the PMC itself.
>
> - Dennis
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:***@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 16:16
> > To: ***@openoffice.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Community building: give our User a chance to contribute!
> >
> > Hmm, the discussion moves in a wrong direction, with wrong assumptions.
> > I am against a status quo solution. For me status quo directly transfers
> > to nothing happens.
> >
> > I am not talking of creating one Investor that provides Money. I aim at
> > mobilizing as much as possible Open Office users has as Investors.
> >
> > What I propose is a open crowd infrastructure. I do not believe Apache
> > is capable of this, today. I do believe this is a near future, game
> > changing model in general.
> >
> >
> > For me the model should respect:
> >
> > # Fundraising itself is neutral (i.e. funds are not raised for
> > developers but for tasks / actions)
> >
> > # nonprofit (Funds are not ment to provide any profit to the
> > organisation itself and are bound by activity. investor decided on.)
> [orcmid]
>
> The ASF is not *just* a non-profit organization. It is a *charity*. As
> part of being a charity, there is no "investor," only contributors, and
> contributors might be able to target contributions to some area, there will
> not be delivering activities chosen by investors. It is unimaginable. You
> have to find a means that does not involve the ASF or any ASF project in
> such an arrangement.
>
> >
> > # Openess of the Infra (other Apache Project have acces to the same
> > infra if they whish.)
> [orcmid]
>
> Now you are proposing a different support and arrangement of Apache
> Infrastructure. That is too ill-defined and would not be the prerogative
> of a PMC anyhow.
> >
> > # Openess in the community ( the funds on a task is open to all
> > commiters if they manage to satisfy the requirement for a payout.)
> [orcmid]
>
> Again, this is not going to happen. It is a form of commerce and the ASF
> considers this to be completely incompatible with its charter and mission
> in everything I can find.
> >
> >
> > This is just a rough outline, so you understand the direction (vision) I
> > am thinking. Also please note that a lot question have to be answered.
> > This is maybe 1% of a business plan.
> >
> > I try to make a graph on the weekend. However I am not sure if I manage
> > this on the weekend. (Thats why I have asked Raphael to give his
> > vision).
> >
> >
> > I do not see any reason why this cannot be done by Apache itseslf. Also
> > One or more 3rd Party supplier can provide the Infra in full or in
> > parts. For me this question is an issue we need to deal with at a later
> > stage. And I stress this point: It needs to happen in sync with Apache.
> > A crowd funding community is a dragon. And as Dragons are, they can be
> > difficult in times. You do well to be prepared.
> >
> > I hope all are at least courious and support this with their hopes and
> > fears. It would be so powerfull if we can make this work.
> [orcmid]
>
> The *only* way to embark on this is to see how to create an external
> entity that arranges contributions to ASF Projects.
>
> You should find a way to do that. You must find people willing to
> contribute much effort. And people providing funds must have confidence in
> dealing with that entity. Changing the charter of the ASF is the wrong way
> around.
>
> If no one steps forward, then that shows this opportunity is not a
> constructive one.
>
> In the past, some people offered to make small donations (smaller that $50
> USD). That is not effective.
>
> Another time, crowd funding and creation of a Kickstarter was discussed.
> No one did that.
>
> And last year, a conversation about an organization that could fund work
> was introduced. No action occurred.
>
> This conversation has continued over one week, and there are no actions.
>
> Perhaps the details that Peter Kovacs will produce something that others
> can work on.
>
> I assure you, the way ahead is not by expecting the ASF to somehow do the
> work. It is contributors to ASF Projects that do work. All volunteers.
> *Volunteers* If no one volunteers and takes steps, you have your answer.
>
> And Dave Fisher is correct. The AOO PMC is accountable to the ASF. While
> it should and does reflect the larger community, it cannot act outside of
> the ASF structure, even if some contributors (and maybe PMC members) prefer
> otherwise.
>
> - Dennis
> >
> >
> > Stay agile, keep Chalanging
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > On 20.01.2017 22:56, Dave Fisher wrote:
> > > Hi -
> > >
> > > Read to the bottom. Don't mistake my opposition to the following
> > statement as opposition to a way forward to funding of a third party.
> > >
> > >> and one more note:
> > >> Our PMC is a PMC of an Apache project and it must be loyal to the ASF
> > and the OpenOffice project.
> > >> If, however, there are single points that are contentious, then the
> > PMC must first represent the interests of OpenOffice.
> > > Not true. I am a Member of the Apache Software Foundation. That is
> > just like a shareholder. For me that comes first. Then come PMC
> > memberships and AOO is but one of mine.
> > >
> > > In all this discussion please keep in mind that the ASF is a nonprofit
> > and must not play favorites with anyone whether individual or
> > corporation.
> > >
> > > The ASF will protect its trademarks and expects that PMC does so.
> > >
> > > If by negotiation there was some way the AOO project proposed funding
> > for third parties to the ASF many questions would need to be answered
> > including keeping the arrangement open to others, allocation of funds,
> > auditing etc. This would be expensive. So, you can see that it just does
> > not happen.
> > >
> > > A clear separation between the third party and the ASF and the project
> > MUST be kept.
> > >
> > > I am ALL for a third party. Any developers and other
> > employees/volunteers from that group who demonstrate merit here would
> > have my support for committer status.
> > >
> > > A third party might have a distribution powered by Apache OpenOffice.
> > That could solicit. The project could decide to use a Powered By
> > verification as a way to validate the downstream.
> > >
> > > Something like that could work. It is close to the status quo.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > >> On Jan 20, 2017, at 3:38 AM, Jörg Schmidt <***@j-m-schmidt.de>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:***@gmail.com]
> > >>> But in my eyes we need a way to ensure project health and
> > >>> turn towards
> > >>> the community we have. We were last year at the edge of project
> > >>> retirement. We are slowly fighting our way out by pure
> > >>> voluntary work of
> > >>> people that belive in the market name Open Office.
> > >> +1
> > >>
> > >>> I think LibreOffice are to a certain degree correct. The ASF is not
> > >>> capable to do the Project Open Office at this Point. The structure
> > of
> > >>> Libre Office is a much more healthy one for the kind of Project
> > >>> Libre/Open Office is.
> > >> Yes, unfortunately, the relevant criticism of LO is correct.
> > >>
> > >> But one thing should be quite clear:
> > >> The solution is not to join LO, but the solution is: we need to
> > improve ourselves.
> > >>
> > >>> However I think we can build a similar powerfull structure if
> > >>> not more
> > >>> powerfull. At the same time we must walk in Sync with the ASF.
> > >> +1
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Peter has said a lot about what I find right.
> > >>
> > >> Likewise, I believe that it is necessary to use time to clarify these
> > things, even if this time is initially missing for the programming.
> > >> The point is, the better structures will improve our efficiency in
> > the long run.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> and one more note:
> > >> Our PMC is a PMC of an Apache project and it must be loyal to the ASF
> > and the OpenOffice project.
> > >> If, however, there are single points that are contentious, then the
> > PMC must first represent the interests of OpenOffice.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Greetings,
> > >> Jörg
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-***@openoffice.apache.org
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-***@openoffice.apache.org
> > >>
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-***@openoffice.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-***@openoffice.apache.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-***@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-***@openoffice.apache.org
>
> --
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