Discussion:
Toots
(too old to reply)
Tony Cooper
2019-10-23 15:26:55 UTC
Permalink
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)

The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".

The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the owner
of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard, legally) I
never visited the place, so I don't know how it was pronounced by the
crowd that went there.

"Toots", though, is a (disparaged) term for a woman like "Babe". I've
never used it, but would have been inclined to rhyme it with "roots".
Would it have cause any more distress to both use it *and*
mispronounce it?

*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-23 15:41:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
[ … ]
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think it was Clive James (an Australian journalist very well known in
the UK 30 years ago) who said that if you saw an announcement labelled
"famous author dies" you can be certain it will be someone you've never
heard of.
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-23 16:08:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
[ … ]
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think it was Clive James (an Australian journalist very well known in
the UK 30 years ago) who said that if you saw an announcement labelled
"famous author dies" you can be certain it will be someone you've never
heard of.
You can find lots of Clive James quotations about all sorts of things
on the web, but the one I was most struck by (especially the bit about
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
More fascinating than ever in its current series, Dallas (BBC1)
continues to offer its uniquely Texan combination of wealth, family
conflict and sumptuous, scantily draped females. The men wear Astroturf
haircuts topped off with ten-gallon hats. Marginally more simpatico
this time, J. R. Ewing has a new haircut which changes colour from shot
to shot and a hat-band composed of what appear to be crushed
budgerigars. In the normal course of events he is an easy man to
loathe, but lately he is having a prarlm with his wife. A prarlm is
something difficult to solve.
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2019-10-23 19:20:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
[ - ]
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think it was Clive James (an Australian journalist very well known in
the UK 30 years ago) who said that if you saw an announcement labelled
"famous author dies" you can be certain it will be someone you've never
heard of.
He must be referring to Toots Thielemans,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toots_Thielemans>
A complete nobody, at merely ten Wikipedia pages.

And anyway, if more proof were needed,
it is axiomatic in Anglo-Saxonia that famous Belgians can't exist,

Jan
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-10-23 20:29:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
[ - ]
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think it was Clive James (an Australian journalist very well known in
the UK 30 years ago) who said that if you saw an announcement labelled
"famous author dies" you can be certain it will be someone you've never
heard of.
He must be referring to Toots Thielemans,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toots_Thielemans>
A complete nobody, at merely ten Wikipedia pages.
And anyway, if more proof were needed,
it is axiomatic in Anglo-Saxonia that famous Belgians can't exist,
Jan
The only famous Dutch people were painters. and maybe Van Dieman. But I
expect he painted a bit in his spare time.
Oh and Van der Valk.
IIRC there is a famous Dutchman in South Wales: Barry Van Hire. He does
a lot of deliveries.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Tony Cooper
2019-10-23 22:07:50 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:29:49 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The only famous Dutch people were painters.
Yeah, but ask "Who is the most famous Dutch person?" and a common
answer would be a skater. The creator of that skater was not Dutch,
though. She was an American.

Similar to the most famous African who was really from India and
created by a Scottish woman.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mack A. Damia
2019-10-23 22:20:51 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:07:50 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:29:49 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The only famous Dutch people were painters.
Yeah, but ask "Who is the most famous Dutch person?" and a common
answer would be a skater. The creator of that skater was not Dutch,
though. She was an American.
The Netherlands won't give Anne Frank posthumous Dutch citizenship,
but I think she is a "famous Dutch person". She lived most of her
short life in Amsterdam.
Post by Tony Cooper
Similar to the most famous African who was really from India and
created by a Scottish woman.
J. J. Lodder
2019-10-24 09:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:07:50 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:29:49 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The only famous Dutch people were painters.
Yeah, but ask "Who is the most famous Dutch person?" and a common
answer would be a skater. The creator of that skater was not Dutch,
though. She was an American.
The Netherlands won't give Anne Frank posthumous Dutch citizenship,
but I think she is a "famous Dutch person". She lived most of her
short life in Amsterdam.
Anne Frank was a stateless person, for by German law
her a German of 1941 her citizenship was revoked.
What she wanted to have very much was American citizenship,
but the Americans did everything, I repeat everything,
to make immigration as impossible as they could,

Jan

BTW, her father, Otto Frank,
did acquire citizenship of the Netherlands after the war was over.
The law, as it stands, does not allow for posthumous citizenship.
It is a bit unfair to blame the Netherlands for being unable
to change laws instantly for an unforseen case.
If still alive Anne would have acquired Dutch citizenship
together with her father.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-24 13:01:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:07:50 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:29:49 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The only famous Dutch people were painters.
Yeah, but ask "Who is the most famous Dutch person?" and a common
answer would be a skater. The creator of that skater was not Dutch,
though. She was an American.
The Netherlands won't give Anne Frank posthumous Dutch citizenship,
but I think she is a "famous Dutch person". She lived most of her
short life in Amsterdam.
I suspect Rembrandt is more "famous" than whoever Tony Cooper is hinting
at -- Hans Brinker?
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Tony Cooper
Similar to the most famous African who was really from India and
created by a Scottish woman.
Gandhi? (An Indian who was from Africa.)
Peter Young
2019-10-24 13:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:07:50 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:29:49 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The only famous Dutch people were painters.
Yeah, but ask "Who is the most famous Dutch person?" and a common
answer would be a skater. The creator of that skater was not Dutch,
though. She was an American.
The Netherlands won't give Anne Frank posthumous Dutch citizenship,
but I think she is a "famous Dutch person". She lived most of her
short life in Amsterdam.
I suspect Rembrandt is more "famous" than whoever Tony Cooper is hinting
at -- Hans Brinker?
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Tony Cooper
Similar to the most famous African who was really from India and
created by a Scottish woman.
Gandhi? (An Indian who was from Africa.)
Pardon, Sir, error.

Born Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
2 October 1869
Porbandar, Kathiawar Agency, British-ruled India

He didn't go to South Africa till 1893.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-24 20:30:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:07:50 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Similar to the most famous African who was really from India and
created by a Scottish woman.
Gandhi? (An Indian who was from Africa.)
Pardon, Sir, error.
Born Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
2 October 1869
Porbandar, Kathiawar Agency, British-ruled India
"From" is vague.
Post by Peter Young
He didn't go to South Africa till 1893.
from where? Uganda? Kenya? Zanzibar?
Peter Young
2019-10-24 20:54:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:07:50 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Similar to the most famous African who was really from India and
created by a Scottish woman.
Gandhi? (An Indian who was from Africa.)
Pardon, Sir, error.
Born Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
2 October 1869
Porbandar, Kathiawar Agency, British-ruled India
"From" is vague.
Very vague, in your post. I never used that word.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
He didn't go to South Africa till 1893.
from where? Uganda? Kenya? Zanzibar?
From London. Couldn't you have found out that yourself?

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-24 21:14:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:07:50 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Similar to the most famous African who was really from India and
created by a Scottish woman.
Gandhi? (An Indian who was from Africa.)
Pardon, Sir, error.
Born Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
2 October 1869
Porbandar, Kathiawar Agency, British-ruled India
"From" is vague.
Very vague, in your post. I never used that word.
Why should you have? I was riffing on whom TC might have meant by
"the most famous African who was really from India" and its converse.
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
He didn't go to South Africa till 1893.
from where? Uganda? Kenya? Zanzibar?
From London. Couldn't you have found out that yourself?
I know that he performed public service in the Indian communities in
at least one of those colonies before going to India and becoming
notorious.
Peter Young
2019-10-24 21:35:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:07:50 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Similar to the most famous African who was really from India and
created by a Scottish woman.
Gandhi? (An Indian who was from Africa.)
Pardon, Sir, error.
Born Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
2 October 1869
Porbandar, Kathiawar Agency, British-ruled India
"From" is vague.
Very vague, in your post. I never used that word.
Why should you have? I was riffing on whom TC might have meant by
"the most famous African who was really from India" and its converse.
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
He didn't go to South Africa till 1893.
from where? Uganda? Kenya? Zanzibar?
From London. Couldn't you have found out that yourself?
I know that he performed public service in the Indian communities in
at least one of those colonies before going to India and becoming
notorious.
He went from India to London in the late 1880s, and from there went back
to India. From there he went to South Africa in 1893. Any fule know that,
with maybe exceptions. There is no mention of his being in any of the
colonies, unless you have documentary evidence.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-10-25 09:11:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:07:50 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Similar to the most famous African who was really from India and
created by a Scottish woman.
Gandhi? (An Indian who was from Africa.)
Pardon, Sir, error.
Born Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
2 October 1869
Porbandar, Kathiawar Agency, British-ruled India
"From" is vague.
Very vague, in your post. I never used that word.
Why should you have? I was riffing on whom TC might have meant by
"the most famous African who was really from India" and its converse.
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
He didn't go to South Africa till 1893.
from where? Uganda? Kenya? Zanzibar?
From London. Couldn't you have found out that yourself?
I know that he performed public service in the Indian communities in
at least one of those colonies before going to India and becoming
notorious.
that's a goalpost shift; London, then South Africa.
Post by Peter Young
He went from India to London in the late 1880s, and from there went
back to India. From there he went to South Africa in 1893. Any fule
know that, with maybe exceptions. There is no mention of his being in
any of the colonies, unless you have documentary evidence.
Peter.
Is Daniels making stuff^w mis-remembering again? Or is it some kind of
game, to make at least one erroneous assertion per post?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Sam Plusnet
2019-10-25 01:09:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
From London. Couldn't you have found out that yourself?
That would afford little opportunity for a dispute.
--
Sam Plusnet
Mark Brader
2019-10-23 22:43:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The only famous Dutch people were painters.
Yeah. Well, except there was... no, he was Danish. And... no, he
was Danish too. Yeah, you're right.
Post by Tony Cooper
Yeah, but ask "Who is the most famous Dutch person?" and a common
answer would be a skater.
Huh? Famous skaters are American, Canadian, British, German, or
Norwegian, aren't they?
Post by Tony Cooper
The creator of that skater was not Dutch, though. She was an
American.
"Creator"? Are you talking about something from fiction? I think it
should be obvious that that question is not about fiction.
Post by Tony Cooper
Similar to the most famous African who was really from India and
created by a Scottish woman.
I don't know what character that is either.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Bacterium is the term for a single bacteria."
***@vex.net |
Tony Cooper
2019-10-23 23:43:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The only famous Dutch people were painters.
Yeah. Well, except there was... no, he was Danish. And... no, he
was Danish too. Yeah, you're right.
Post by Tony Cooper
Yeah, but ask "Who is the most famous Dutch person?" and a common
answer would be a skater.
Huh? Famous skaters are American, Canadian, British, German, or
Norwegian, aren't they?
"Hans Brinker" or "The Silver Skates" was written by Mary Mapes Dodge.
In addition to being a skater, Hans stuck his finger in a dike.
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tony Cooper
The creator of that skater was not Dutch, though. She was an
American.
"Creator"? Are you talking about something from fiction? I think it
should be obvious that that question is not about fiction.
You haven't experienced Americans who don't know some characters were
fictional and not real people?
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tony Cooper
Similar to the most famous African who was really from India and
created by a Scottish woman.
I don't know what character that is either.
"Little Black Sambo" was written by Helen Bannerman.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mark Brader
2019-10-24 04:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
You haven't experienced Americans who don't know some characters were
fictional and not real people?
Definitely no comment.
--
Mark Brader "You are dangerously close to attempting
Toronto to apply logic and sense to the actions
***@vex.net of the Florida legislators." --Tony Cooper
J. J. Lodder
2019-10-24 09:50:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The only famous Dutch people were painters.
Yeah. Well, except there was... no, he was Danish. And... no, he
was Danish too. Yeah, you're right.
Post by Tony Cooper
Yeah, but ask "Who is the most famous Dutch person?" and a common
answer would be a skater.
Huh? Famous skaters are American, Canadian, British, German, or
Norwegian, aren't they?
"Hans Brinker" or "The Silver Skates" was written by Mary Mapes Dodge.
In addition to being a skater, Hans stuck his finger in a dike.
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tony Cooper
The creator of that skater was not Dutch, though. She was an
American.
"Creator"? Are you talking about something from fiction? I think it
should be obvious that that question is not about fiction.
You haven't experienced Americans who don't know some characters were
fictional and not real people?
Now really, are you trying to make us believe
that Americans know the difference between fact and fiction?

Or about reality at all?

Jan
Ken Blake
2019-10-23 23:43:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The only famous Dutch people were painters.
And Max Euwe, World Chess Champion from 1935-1037.

There's a square named after him in Amsterdam.

I played him once, in a simultaneous he gave in NYC around 1958. We drew.

Ken
J. J. Lodder
2019-10-24 09:50:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The only famous Dutch people were painters.
And Max Euwe, World Chess Champion from 1935-1037.
There's a square named after him in Amsterdam.
Sure, and you can go there to play chess.
<Loading Image...
?w=300&h=201>
Max Euwe is also known from translations of the many chess books
he wrote, many still in print.
Post by Ken Blake
I played him once, in a simultaneous he gave in NYC around 1958. We drew.
Good for you,

Jan
J. J. Lodder
2019-10-24 09:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The only famous Dutch people were painters.
Yeah. Well, except there was... no, he was Danish. And... no, he
was Danish too. Yeah, you're right.
Of course. Any educated American knows
that Copenhagen is the capital of the Netherlands.
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tony Cooper
Yeah, but ask "Who is the most famous Dutch person?" and a common
answer would be a skater.
Huh? Famous skaters are American, Canadian, British, German, or
Norwegian, aren't they?
That doesn't apply to non-existent ones.
No real problem though, the Dutch have arranged
for some tourist traps based on it
especially for American visitors,

Jan
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-10-24 14:06:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:07:50 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:29:49 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The only famous Dutch people were painters.
Yeah, but ask "Who is the most famous Dutch person?" and a common
answer would be a skater. The creator of that skater was not Dutch,
though. She was an American.
Similar to the most famous African who was really from India and
created by a Scottish woman.
The most famous African of Indian parentage I can think of is the late
Freddie Mercury.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-23 22:56:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
[ - ]
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think it was Clive James (an Australian journalist very well known
in
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
the UK 30 years ago) who said that if you saw an announcement labelled
"famous author dies" you can be certain it will be someone you've
never
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
heard of.
He must be referring to Toots Thielemans,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toots_Thielemans>
A complete nobody, at merely ten Wikipedia pages.
And anyway, if more proof were needed,
it is axiomatic in Anglo-Saxonia that famous Belgians can't exist,
Jan
The only famous Dutch people were painters. and maybe Van Dieman. But I
expect he painted a bit in his spare time.
Didn't you chaps have a Dutch king at one point, or is he officially
an Englishman? (STS warning: It's greatly to his credit.)

I recognized Thielmans's name, but I'm not sure I'd have guessed
that he had anything to do with music.
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Oh and Van der Valk.
The most famous Belgian is also a fictional detective, so in keeping
with Jan's comment, he doesn't exist.
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
IIRC there is a famous Dutchman in South Wales: Barry Van Hire. He does
a lot of deliveries.
Any relation to Van Cliburn?
--
Jerry Friedman
RH Draney
2019-10-23 23:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
The most famous Belgian is also a fictional detective, so in keeping
with Jan's comment, he doesn't exist.
Tintin imaginary?...say it ain't so!...r
Quinn C
2019-10-24 03:45:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
[ - ]
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think it was Clive James (an Australian journalist very well known
in
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
the UK 30 years ago) who said that if you saw an announcement labelled
"famous author dies" you can be certain it will be someone you've
never
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
heard of.
He must be referring to Toots Thielemans,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toots_Thielemans>
A complete nobody, at merely ten Wikipedia pages.
And anyway, if more proof were needed,
it is axiomatic in Anglo-Saxonia that famous Belgians can't exist,
Jan
The only famous Dutch people were painters. and maybe Van Dieman. But I
expect he painted a bit in his spare time.
Didn't you chaps have a Dutch king at one point, or is he officially
an Englishman? (STS warning: It's greatly to his credit.)
I recognized Thielmans's name, but I'm not sure I'd have guessed
that he had anything to do with music.
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Oh and Van der Valk.
The most famous Belgian is also a fictional detective, so in keeping
with Jan's comment, he doesn't exist.
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
IIRC there is a famous Dutchman in South Wales: Barry Van Hire. He does
a lot of deliveries.
Any relation to Van Cliburn?
That guy. For years, I tried to find out his first name.
--
The trouble some people have being German, I thought,
I have being human.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.130
J. J. Lodder
2019-10-24 09:50:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
[ - ]
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think it was Clive James (an Australian journalist very well known
in
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
the UK 30 years ago) who said that if you saw an announcement labelled
"famous author dies" you can be certain it will be someone you've
never
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
heard of.
He must be referring to Toots Thielemans,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toots_Thielemans>
A complete nobody, at merely ten Wikipedia pages.
And anyway, if more proof were needed,
it is axiomatic in Anglo-Saxonia that famous Belgians can't exist,
Jan
The only famous Dutch people were painters. and maybe Van Dieman. But I
expect he painted a bit in his spare time.
Didn't you chaps have a Dutch king at one point, or is he officially
an Englishman? (STS warning: It's greatly to his credit.)
Yes, but after conquering England he was king of England only,
not of the Netherlands. (where he was only the 'stadhouder')
He was Williamandmary in England and Willem III in the Netherlands.
His chief claim to fame is having answered the 'Irish Question'
in such a thorough way that they are still having Brexit problems over
it.
Post by Jerry Friedman
I recognized Thielmans's name, but I'm not sure I'd have guessed
that he had anything to do with music.
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Oh and Van der Valk.
The most famous Belgian is also a fictional detective, so in keeping
with Jan's comment, he doesn't exist.
There is also the Memorable Dutch admiral Van Broom.
Not Famous, but still Memorable. (to the English)
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
IIRC there is a famous Dutchman in South Wales: Barry Van Hire. He does
a lot of deliveries.
Any relation to Van Cliburn?
Apart from the 'Van' 'Cliburn' has no recognisable Dutch connection.
It is an English name. Guess the 'Van' is an merely an embellishment,
and that his real name is just Cliburn,

Jan
charles
2019-10-24 10:10:24 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,

[Snip]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Yes, but after conquering England he was king of England only,
not of the Netherlands. (where he was only the 'stadhouder')
He was Williamandmary in England
and Scotland,

Although the two countries has separate parliaments until 1707, they had a
single monarch from 1603.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Sam Plusnet
2019-10-24 20:29:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
[Snip]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Yes, but after conquering England he was king of England only,
not of the Netherlands. (where he was only the 'stadhouder')
He was Williamandmary in England
and Scotland,
Although the two countries has separate parliaments until 1707, they had a
single monarch from 1603.
An early example of a BOGOF?
--
Sam Plusnet
J. J. Lodder
2019-10-24 20:57:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
[Snip]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Yes, but after conquering England he was king of England only,
not of the Netherlands. (where he was only the 'stadhouder')
He was Williamandmary in England
and Scotland,
Which in no way contradicts what I said.
The point, which you snipped,
was that he was NOT king of the Netherlands.

Jan
charles
2019-10-24 21:07:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
[Snip]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Yes, but after conquering England he was king of England only,
not of the Netherlands. (where he was only the 'stadhouder')
He was Williamandmary in England
and Scotland,
Which in no way contradicts what I said.
The point, which you snipped,
was that he was NOT king of the Netherlands.
What was wrong with snipping that? It wasn't relevant to my point
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-10-25 09:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
[Snip]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Yes, but after conquering England he was king of England only,
not of the Netherlands. (where he was only the 'stadhouder')
He was Williamandmary in England
and Scotland,
Which in no way contradicts what I said.
The point, which you snipped,
was that he was NOT king of the Netherlands.
What was wrong with snipping that? It wasn't relevant to my point
Says here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_III_of_England
Ireland as well.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Moylan
2019-10-25 00:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
[Snip]
Yes, but after conquering England he was king of England only, not
of the Netherlands. (where he was only the 'stadhouder') He was
Williamandmary in England
and Scotland,
Although the two countries has separate parliaments until 1707, they
had a single monarch from 1603.
I see that Brexit is giving a big boost to the Scottish independence
movement. If Scotland does secede from the UK, will it go back to having
a monarch? Perhaps even the present monarch?
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Katy Jennison
2019-10-25 09:16:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by charles
[Snip]
Yes, but after conquering England he was king of England only, not
of the Netherlands. (where he was only the 'stadhouder') He was
Williamandmary in England
and Scotland,
Although the two countries has separate parliaments until 1707, they
had a single monarch from 1603.
I see that Brexit is giving a big boost to the Scottish independence
movement. If Scotland does secede from the UK, will it go back to having
a monarch? Perhaps even the present monarch?
It's always possible that the present monarch will secede along with the
country.
--
Katy Jennison
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-24 23:25:12 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
IIRC there is a famous Dutchman in South Wales: Barry Van Hire. He does
a lot of deliveries.
Any relation to Van Cliburn?
Apart from the 'Van' 'Cliburn' has no recognisable Dutch connection.
It is an English name. Guess the 'Van' is an merely an embellishment,
and that his real name is just Cliburn,
I was just picking up on KMJ's joke. Your guess about Harvey Lavan
Cliburn, Jr., is correct.
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2019-10-24 10:56:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
[ - ]
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think it was Clive James (an Australian journalist very well known
in
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
the UK 30 years ago) who said that if you saw an announcement labelled
"famous author dies" you can be certain it will be someone you've
never
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
heard of.
He must be referring to Toots Thielemans,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toots_Thielemans>
A complete nobody, at merely ten Wikipedia pages.
And anyway, if more proof were needed,
it is axiomatic in Anglo-Saxonia that famous Belgians can't exist,
Jan
The only famous Dutch people were painters. and maybe Van Dieman.
Some of the best Australians were put ashore there,

Jan
Peter Moylan
2019-10-24 11:50:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The only famous Dutch people were painters. and maybe Van Dieman.
Some of the best Australians were put ashore there,
For some value of 'best'. The prison colony in Van Diemen's Land was
used for the really hard cases, the prisoners who were too tough to
handle in New South Wales. Part of the reason was that the rugged
terrain made escape much harder.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Horace LaBadie
2019-10-23 15:48:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the owner
of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard, legally) I
never visited the place, so I don't know how it was pronounced by the
crowd that went there.
"Toots", though, is a (disparaged) term for a woman like "Babe". I've
never used it, but would have been inclined to rhyme it with "roots".
Would it have cause any more distress to both use it *and*
mispronounce it?
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think Larry Adler was pretty famous.
RH Draney
2019-10-23 16:35:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think Larry Adler was pretty famous.
And Jerry Murad....

(Also Bob Dylan, but he was a famous person who played the
harmonica...the others mentioned in this thread were harmonica players
who were famous)....r
HVS
2019-10-23 16:52:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I
have trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think Larry Adler was pretty famous.
That's who I was going to mention, but I think he's the only one I'd
have remembered.
Post by RH Draney
And Jerry Murad....
Never heard of him. (Not that that disqualifies him as "famous", of
course. But I drew a blank even when Google returned articles about
"The Harmonicats".)
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30 yrs) and BrEng (36 yrs),
indiscriminately mixed
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-10-23 20:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think Larry Adler was pretty famous.
And Jerry Murad....
(Also Bob Dylan, but he was a famous person who played the
harmonica...the others mentioned in this thread were harmonica players
who were famous)....r
Stevie Wonder?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
RH Draney
2019-10-23 23:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by RH Draney
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think Larry Adler was pretty famous.
And Jerry Murad....
(Also Bob Dylan, but he was a famous person who played the
harmonica...the others mentioned in this thread were harmonica players
who were famous)....r
Stevie Wonder?
John Lennon: "No thanks, I'm rhythm guitar and mouth organ."

....r
J. J. Lodder
2019-10-24 09:50:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by RH Draney
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think Larry Adler was pretty famous.
And Jerry Murad....
(Also Bob Dylan, but he was a famous person who played the
harmonica...the others mentioned in this thread were harmonica players
who were famous)....r
Stevie Wonder?
A Nobody. Who is Bob Dylan?

Jan
musika
2019-10-24 00:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think Larry Adler was pretty famous.
Any Brits remember Arthur Tolcher?
--
Ray
UK
Peter Young
2019-10-24 06:28:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by musika
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think Larry Adler was pretty famous.
Any Brits remember Arthur Tolcher?
Yes. What do you think of it so far?

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-10-24 09:40:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by musika
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think Larry Adler was pretty famous.
Any Brits remember Arthur Tolcher?
Yes. What do you think of it so far?
*Now* I do! Who was the impressaria (sp?) Janet?

Ah thank google, Janet Webb.
http://www.morecambeandwise.com/viewpage.aspx?pageid=306
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
s***@gmail.com
2019-10-24 20:44:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Young
Post by musika
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think Larry Adler was pretty famous.
Any Brits remember Arthur Tolcher?
Yes. What do you think of it so far?
*Now* I do! Who was the impressaria (sp?) Janet?
Ah thank google, Janet Webb.
http://www.morecambeandwise.com/viewpage.aspx?pageid=306
"What ever you do, don't cross the threads"
(paraphrasing Ergon)

Ooops -- x'd with "burly" and "buxom".

/dps
Sam Plusnet
2019-10-25 01:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Young
Post by musika
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think Larry Adler was pretty famous.
Any Brits remember Arthur Tolcher?
Yes. What do you think of it so far?
*Now* I do! Who was the impressaria (sp?) Janet?
Ah thank google, Janet Webb.
http://www.morecambeandwise.com/viewpage.aspx?pageid=306
"What ever you do, don't cross the threads"
(paraphrasing Ergon)
Ooops -- x'd with "burly" and "buxom".
I remember her being a figurehead for the movement against car seatbelt
legislation.
The argument being that it was unreasonable to force fully figured
females to wear them.
--
Sam Plusnet
J. J. Lodder
2019-10-25 07:20:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Young
Post by musika
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think Larry Adler was pretty famous.
Any Brits remember Arthur Tolcher?
Yes. What do you think of it so far?
*Now* I do! Who was the impressaria (sp?) Janet?
Ah thank google, Janet Webb.
http://www.morecambeandwise.com/viewpage.aspx?pageid=306
"What ever you do, don't cross the threads"
(paraphrasing Ergon)
Ooops -- x'd with "burly" and "buxom".
That would make 'robust', in yet another thread,

Jan
phil
2019-10-24 11:08:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by musika
Post by Horace LaBadie
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player".  I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think Larry Adler was pretty famous.
Any Brits remember Arthur Tolcher?
Not now!
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-24 13:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by musika
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
I think Larry Adler was pretty famous.
Any Brits remember Arthur Tolcher?
Arthur Treacher was Merv Griffin's sidekick on his talk show.

He later lent his name to a fried-fish franchise that included french
fries with the order, also lumps of lead(?) called "hush puppies."
CDB
2019-10-23 16:00:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the
owner of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard,
legally) I never visited the place, so I don't know how it was
pronounced by the crowd that went there.
Did Maria Conlon never say how her nickname was pronounced?
Post by Tony Cooper
"Toots", though, is a (disparaged) term for a woman like "Babe".
I've never used it, but would have been inclined to rhyme it with
"roots". Would it have cause any more distress to both use it *and*
mispronounce it?
Toots Shor. My grandmother was "Babe" to some people all her life,
because she had been the youngest of three girls.
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
Katy Jennison
2019-10-23 19:29:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots".  Not a nickname.  It's her legal name.  She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica*  ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the
owner of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant.  (He was Bernard,
legally) I never visited the place, so I don't know how it was
pronounced by the crowd that went there.
Did Maria Conlon never say how her nickname was pronounced?
That was the Toot(sie) I immediately thought of, not having heard of
those others. Laura, having met her, might know how she pronounced it,
but Laura is somewhat preoccupied with a rather delightful small
grand-daughter these days (which also answers Spains Harden's question
in another thread).
--
Katy Jennison
CDB
2019-10-25 13:13:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by CDB
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named
after Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica*
("Toots" was his nickname, though, and his legal first name was
Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the
owner of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard,
legally) I never visited the place, so I don't know how it was
pronounced by the crowd that went there.
Did Maria Conlon never say how her nickname was pronounced?
That was the Toot(sie) I immediately thought of, not having heard of
those others. Laura, having met her, might know how she pronounced
it, but Laura is somewhat preoccupied with a rather delightful small
grand-daughter these days (which also answers Spains Harden's
question in another thread).
Seeing her photo in the gallery the other day reminded me of why I have
long associated her with Helena Bonham-Carter.
--
Not necessarily in "Margaret's Museum".
bert
2019-10-23 16:17:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the
first name of "Toots" . . . The book's author points
out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not "roots".
In this (northern) part of the UK, "Toots", "puts"
and "roots" all rhyme perfectly with each other.
--
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-23 16:56:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by bert
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the
first name of "Toots" . . . The book's author points
out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not "roots".
In this (northern) part of the UK, "Toots", "puts"
and "roots" all rhyme perfectly with each other.
Also for my father, who was from a northern part of the U.S. (northern
Ohio), but we all made fun of him for it.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mack A. Damia
2019-10-23 16:43:58 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:26:55 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the owner
of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard, legally) I
never visited the place, so I don't know how it was pronounced by the
crowd that went there.
Toots Shor was irreverent. Once he was standing with Frank Sinatra
outside with a line of police keeping the crowds back. He took a one
dollar bill out of his pocket, gave it to Frank, and said, "Here, kid,
go across the street and buy me a paper."

In a drinking contest he left Jackie Gleason on the floor. They were
very good friends, and I remember Jackie mentioning him on his show
frequently.
Post by Tony Cooper
"Toots", though, is a (disparaged) term for a woman like "Babe". I've
never used it, but would have been inclined to rhyme it with "roots".
Would it have cause any more distress to both use it *and*
mispronounce it?
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-23 17:41:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the owner
of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard, legally) I
never visited the place, so I don't know how it was pronounced by the
crowd that went there.
Toots Shor is pronounced the same as your book's character.
Quinn C
2019-10-23 17:42:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
That's how I always heard Thielemans' name.
Post by Tony Cooper
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the owner
of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard, legally) I
never visited the place, so I don't know how it was pronounced by the
crowd that went there.
"Toots", though, is a (disparaged) term for a woman like "Babe". I've
never used it, but would have been inclined to rhyme it with "roots".
I always assumed that all cutesy uses are related to tootsy meaning toe
or foot, which has a short oo.
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
All famousness is relative. I just heard a long interview with the
latest International Mr. Leather. He complained that he can't just go
and stand in line for some pizza any more without being recognized. Two
years ago I didn't know that there was such a thing as a "Mr. Leather",
international or whatever.
--
But I have nver chosen my human environment. I have always
borrowed it from someone like you or Monk or Doris.
-- Jane Rule, This Is Not For You, p.152
J. J. Lodder
2019-10-23 19:44:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
That's how I always heard Thielemans' name.
Forvo has a very correct Dutch pronunciation
<https://forvo.com/word/toots_thielemans/>

Jan
pensive hamster
2019-10-23 20:09:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
That's how I always heard Thielemans' name.
Forvo has a very correct Dutch pronunciation
<https://forvo.com/word/toots_thielemans/>
There's a surprisingly strong whistle (or sibilance) on the final "s".
J. J. Lodder
2019-10-24 09:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by pensive hamster
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
That's how I always heard Thielemans' name.
Forvo has a very correct Dutch pronunciation
<https://forvo.com/word/toots_thielemans/>
There's a surprisingly strong whistle (or sibilance) on the final "s".
Quite standard, in Dutch, and very correct.
The speaker has the Dutch equivalence of RP.

BTW, this is not the usual Dutch pronunciation of the 'oo' sound,
as in 'hotemetoot' for example.
The 'Toots' is treated here as a spelling variant of 'Toets'.
Since he acquired the American nationality it is understandable
that he would prefer to use the 'Toots' spelling.
It gets the American pronunciation about right,
and it saves a lot of explaining, and the Dutch will understand anyway.

And more BTW, unlike what others have said his 'Toots'
qould probably have rhymed with 'roots', and less so with 'puts'.

Jan
pensive hamster
2019-10-23 18:44:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the owner
of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard, legally) I
never visited the place, so I don't know how it was pronounced by the
crowd that went there.
Toots and the Maytals are fairly famous among those who like ska
and reggae music.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toots_and_the_Maytals

"... Frontman Toots Hibbert's soulful vocal style has been compared
to Otis Redding, and led him to be named one of the 100 Greatest
Singers by Rolling Stone.[1] Their 1968 single "Do the Reggay", was
the first song to use the word "reggae", naming the genre and
introducing it to a global audience.[2][3]"
b***@shaw.ca
2019-10-23 19:47:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
Thielemans was Belgian, and in Dutch/Flemish, his nickname
was spelled "Toets", which does rhyme with most pronunciations
of the English word roots. Its meaning in Dutch is the same as
"toots" in English, i.e. a sound a musician can produce using
various instruments.
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
When I was a Dutch kid in the 1950s, everybody knew who he was.
He was a frequent guest artist on television variety shows, which
were as popular in that time and place as the Ed Sullivan Show
in North America. In context, he was indeed famous.

bill
Mack A. Damia
2019-10-23 20:01:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
Thielemans was Belgian, and in Dutch/Flemish, his nickname
was spelled "Toets", which does rhyme with most pronunciations
of the English word roots. Its meaning in Dutch is the same as
"toots" in English, i.e. a sound a musician can produce using
various instruments.
Common in the Pennsylvania Dutch regions, many people pronounce
"roots" as "rutz".

Rutz is vomit in some circles. "Rutz" doesn't Google in that vein, so
maybe it is a local thing. Could be an onomatopoeia?
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
When I was a Dutch kid in the 1950s, everybody knew who he was.
He was a frequent guest artist on television variety shows, which
were as popular in that time and place as the Ed Sullivan Show
in North America. In context, he was indeed famous.
bill
Peter Young
2019-10-23 20:10:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
Thielemans was Belgian, and in Dutch/Flemish, his nickname
was spelled "Toets", which does rhyme with most pronunciations
of the English word roots. Its meaning in Dutch is the same as
"toots" in English, i.e. a sound a musician can produce using
various instruments.
Common in the Pennsylvania Dutch regions, many people pronounce
"roots" as "rutz".
Rutz is vomit in some circles. "Rutz" doesn't Google in that vein, so
maybe it is a local thing. Could be an onomatopoeia?
For British post-op care unit staff, emesis is sometimes referred to as
"Calling for Ruth" or "Calling for Hooey".

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Mack A. Damia
2019-10-23 20:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
Thielemans was Belgian, and in Dutch/Flemish, his nickname
was spelled "Toets", which does rhyme with most pronunciations
of the English word roots. Its meaning in Dutch is the same as
"toots" in English, i.e. a sound a musician can produce using
various instruments.
Common in the Pennsylvania Dutch regions, many people pronounce
"roots" as "rutz".
Rutz is vomit in some circles. "Rutz" doesn't Google in that vein, so
maybe it is a local thing. Could be an onomatopoeia?
For British post-op care unit staff, emesis is sometimes referred to as
"Calling for Ruth" or "Calling for Hooey".
I was thinking of "Ralph" and "Roy".
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-23 21:04:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
Common in the Pennsylvania Dutch regions, many people pronounce
"roots" as "rutz".
Uninterpretable.

What could a change from -ts to -tz even possibly indicate?

Which of the many possible pronunciations of CuC could be intended?
Quinn C
2019-10-23 22:52:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
Common in the Pennsylvania Dutch regions, many people pronounce
"roots" as "rutz".
Rutz is vomit in some circles. "Rutz" doesn't Google in that vein, so
maybe it is a local thing. Could be an onomatopoeia?
Possible. "Rotz" is snot in German.
--
Behold, honored adversaries,
We are the instruments of your joyful death.
Consu war chant -- J. Scalzi, Old Man's War
Mack A. Damia
2019-10-24 14:28:22 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:52:06 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Common in the Pennsylvania Dutch regions, many people pronounce
"roots" as "rutz".
Rutz is vomit in some circles. "Rutz" doesn't Google in that vein, so
maybe it is a local thing. Could be an onomatopoeia?
Possible. "Rotz" is snot in German.
That's good. I wonder if there is a connection.

The word "rutz" as it relates to throwing up refers to the vomit
itself and the action of vomiting.

"He's in the bathroom rutzing. There is rutz all over the place."
Anders D. Nygaard
2019-10-23 22:42:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
Jean-Baptiste.
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Tony Cooper
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
Thielemans was Belgian, and in Dutch/Flemish, his nickname
was spelled "Toets", which does rhyme with most pronunciations
of the English word roots. Its meaning in Dutch is the same as
"toots" in English, i.e. a sound a musician can produce using
various instruments.
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
When I was a Dutch kid in the 1950s, everybody knew who he was.
He was a frequent guest artist on television variety shows, which
were as popular in that time and place as the Ed Sullivan Show
in North America. In context, he was indeed famous.
It worked the same for Danish kids in the 70's.

/Anders, Denmark.
Bart Dinnissen
2019-10-23 21:38:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
Try the score of Midnight Cowboy, and I believe you' ll know.
--
Bart Dinnissen
Eric Walker
2019-10-23 23:49:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was his
nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the owner of
a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard, legally) I never
visited the place, so I don't know how it was pronounced by the crowd
that went there.
It was indeed rhymed with "puts".
Post by Tony Cooper
"Toots", though, is a (disparaged) term for a woman like "Babe". I've
never used it, but would have been inclined to rhyme it with "roots".
Would it have cause any more distress to both use it *and* mispronounce
it?
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
Larry Adler is turning over in his grave.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-24 01:20:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Walker
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was his
nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
...
Post by Eric Walker
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
Larry Adler is turning over in his grave.
Wishing he'd been able to make himself famous?

Actually, given time, I think I'd have been able to remember that there
was an admired harmonica player with the first name Larry.
--
Jerry Friedman
Eric Walker
2019-10-24 08:41:01 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 19:20:34 -0600, Jerry Friedman wrote:

[...]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Actually, given time, I think I'd have been able to remember that there
was an admired harmonica player with the first name Larry.
I had the privilege of hearing Adler in person performing Ralph Vaughan
Williams "Romance for Harmonica", composed for Adler, with Sir Adrian
Boult conducting a small orchestra. This was a concert performed in a
church crypt in London in, I believe, 1973 (when admission costs for such
events were risibly low). Afterwards, my lady and I were thrilled to
pass Sir Adrian on the sidewalk and exchange murmured "Good Evenings".
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Peter Moylan
2019-10-24 03:52:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading
That's a relief. From the subject line I thought you were about to
announce the death of an AUE once-regular.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Tony Cooper
2019-10-24 04:13:05 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 14:52:14 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading
That's a relief. From the subject line I thought you were about to
announce the death of an AUE once-regular.
That was "Tootsie", not "Toots", and she's listed as Maria Conlon at
the AUE Photo Gallery:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160707185416/http://alt-usage-english.org/AUE_gallery/gallery.shtml


P.S. How current is that photo of you?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Moylan
2019-10-24 04:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 14:52:14 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading
That's a relief. From the subject line I thought you were about to
announce the death of an AUE once-regular.
That was "Tootsie", not "Toots", and she's listed as Maria Conlon at
https://web.archive.org/web/20160707185416/http://alt-usage-english.org/AUE_gallery/gallery.shtml
True, that. I'd forgotten that we had a photo of her.
Post by Tony Cooper
P.S. How current is that photo of you?
The one that says "Peter now" would be from the 1990s. The one that says
"Peter then" is probably from 1949.

Looking at the rest of the gallery, I don't see many present AUE regulars.

And I didn't realise Laura was so young.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
RH Draney
2019-10-24 07:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 14:52:14 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading
That's a relief. From the subject line I thought you were about to
announce the death of an AUE once-regular.
That was "Tootsie", not "Toots", and she's listed as Maria Conlon at
https://web.archive.org/web/20160707185416/http://alt-usage-english.org/AUE_gallery/gallery.shtml
I had to incorporate the nickname to come up with any sort of
interesting anagram:

Maria "Tootsie" Conlon = Oo! Romantic toenails!

....r
s***@gmail.com
2019-10-24 08:00:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the owner
of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard, legally) I
never visited the place, so I don't know how it was pronounced by the
crowd that went there.
"Toots", though, is a (disparaged) term for a woman like "Babe". I've
never used it, but would have been inclined to rhyme it with "roots".
Would it have cause any more distress to both use it *and*
mispronounce it?
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
Still heard a lot on jazz stations, or at least on KKJZ and KMHD.
He died in 2016 at almost a century;
I'm not sure when his last recording sessions were done,
but apparently sometime in this century.

Sadly, I can't find evidence that he worked with Claude Bolling,
whose "Toot Suite" is with Maurice André.

/dps
J. J. Lodder
2019-10-24 10:56:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the owner
of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard, legally) I
never visited the place, so I don't know how it was pronounced by the
crowd that went there.
"Toots", though, is a (disparaged) term for a woman like "Babe". I've
never used it, but would have been inclined to rhyme it with "roots".
Would it have cause any more distress to both use it *and*
mispronounce it?
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
Still heard a lot on jazz stations, or at least on KKJZ and KMHD.
He died in 2016 at almost a century;
I'm not sure when his last recording sessions were done,
but apparently sometime in this century.
His last recordings were done from a wheelchair.
Here is perhaps his last 'Midnight Cowboy', at 90


Jan
RH Draney
2019-10-24 11:50:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the owner
of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard, legally) I
never visited the place, so I don't know how it was pronounced by the
crowd that went there.
"Toots", though, is a (disparaged) term for a woman like "Babe". I've
never used it, but would have been inclined to rhyme it with "roots".
Would it have cause any more distress to both use it *and*
mispronounce it?
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
Still heard a lot on jazz stations, or at least on KKJZ and KMHD.
He died in 2016 at almost a century;
I'm not sure when his last recording sessions were done,
but apparently sometime in this century.
Sadly, I can't find evidence that he worked with Claude Bolling,
whose "Toot Suite" is with Maurice André.
On the album "The Intimate PDQ Bach", the second track is called "Toot
Suite for calliope 4-hands, S212§", a selection from the OK Chorale....

If you're going to call a piece the "Toot Suite", calliope is a good
choice for the instrumentation....r
Peter Young
2019-10-24 13:31:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the owner
of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard, legally) I
never visited the place, so I don't know how it was pronounced by the
crowd that went there.
"Toots", though, is a (disparaged) term for a woman like "Babe". I've
never used it, but would have been inclined to rhyme it with "roots".
Would it have cause any more distress to both use it *and*
mispronounce it?
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
Still heard a lot on jazz stations, or at least on KKJZ and KMHD.
He died in 2016 at almost a century;
I'm not sure when his last recording sessions were done,
but apparently sometime in this century.
Sadly, I can't find evidence that he worked with Claude Bolling,
whose "Toot Suite" is with Maurice André.
On the album "The Intimate PDQ Bach", the second track is called "Toot
Suite for calliope 4-hands, S212§", a selection from the OK Chorale....
If you're going to call a piece the "Toot Suite", calliope is a good
choice for the instrumentation....r
And the tooter the sweeter.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Adam Funk
2019-10-24 14:05:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the owner
of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard, legally) I
never visited the place, so I don't know how it was pronounced by the
crowd that went there.
"Toots", though, is a (disparaged) term for a woman like "Babe". I've
never used it, but would have been inclined to rhyme it with "roots".
Would it have cause any more distress to both use it *and*
mispronounce it?
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
Still heard a lot on jazz stations, or at least on KKJZ and KMHD.
He died in 2016 at almost a century;
I'm not sure when his last recording sessions were done,
but apparently sometime in this century.
Sadly, I can't find evidence that he worked with Claude Bolling,
whose "Toot Suite" is with Maurice André.
On the album "The Intimate PDQ Bach", the second track is called "Toot
Suite for calliope 4-hands, S212§", a selection from the OK Chorale....
With gunplay, I hope?
Post by RH Draney
If you're going to call a piece the "Toot Suite", calliope is a good
choice for the instrumentation....r
crashed to the ground
--
Men, there is no sacrifice greater than someone else's.
---Skipper
Mack A. Damia
2019-10-24 14:23:42 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:26:55 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the owner
of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard, legally) I
never visited the place, so I don't know how it was pronounced by the
crowd that went there.
"Toots", though, is a (disparaged) term for a woman like "Babe". I've
never used it, but would have been inclined to rhyme it with "roots".
Would it have cause any more distress to both use it *and*
mispronounce it?
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
When I was in Vietnam, 1968 - 1969, a friend and I went to Hong Kong
on a five day leave.

We were not so much warned but advised about shopping in Hong Kong and
"Touts". Touts were the guys who were paid by the shops and who would
entice passers-by to come into the shop.

I thought it was pronounced "Toots", but it may have been pronounced
as it rhymes with "doubts".

Anybody familiar with it?

And of course, a "toot" is also a tiny spoon of cocaine.
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-24 14:47:33 UTC
Permalink
On 10/24/19 8:23 AM, Mack A. Damia wrote:
...
Post by Mack A. Damia
When I was in Vietnam, 1968 - 1969, a friend and I went to Hong Kong
on a five day leave.
We were not so much warned but advised about shopping in Hong Kong and
"Touts". Touts were the guys who were paid by the shops and who would
entice passers-by to come into the shop.
I thought it was pronounced "Toots", but it may have been pronounced
as it rhymes with "doubts".
Yes, "doubts".
Post by Mack A. Damia
Anybody familiar with it?
...

I think I learned it from the Sherlock Holmes story "Silver Blaze".

"'So, you’re one of those damned touts!' cried the lad. 'I'll show you
how we serve them in King's Pyland.' He sprang up and rushed across the
stable to unloose the dog."

(Obaue: "unloose")

Hence "tout someone onto [or off] something".

I'm no expert in these matters, but I feel that touts are people like
Nicely-Nicely Johnson (Stuck Canon Warning: "I got the horse right
here") and the people you were warned against might have been steerers.

The verb "tout" seems to be disappearing, if the Google results are any
guide--most of the first two pages were definitions, with a few
Australian stories about "ticket touts" (scalpers?). This headline from
the /L.A. Times/ shows a typical journalistic usage:

Justice Gorsuch book touts Scalia's views and civility in the Trump era

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-09-09/justice-gorsuch-new-book-touts-civility-in-the-trump-era
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-24 21:46:56 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, October 24, 2019 at 8:47:38 AM UTC-6, Jerry Friedman wrote:
...
Post by Jerry Friedman
I'm no expert in these matters, but I feel that touts are people like
Nicely-Nicely Johnson (Stuck Canon Warning: "I got the horse right
here") and the people you were warned against might have been steerers.
Speaking of "I'm no expert", I think that song could be described more
precisely as a round. It's not a fugue, AFAIK.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2019-10-24 16:30:29 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:23:42 -0700, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:26:55 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the owner
of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard, legally) I
never visited the place, so I don't know how it was pronounced by the
crowd that went there.
"Toots", though, is a (disparaged) term for a woman like "Babe". I've
never used it, but would have been inclined to rhyme it with "roots".
Would it have cause any more distress to both use it *and*
mispronounce it?
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
When I was in Vietnam, 1968 - 1969, a friend and I went to Hong Kong
on a five day leave.
We were not so much warned but advised about shopping in Hong Kong and
"Touts". Touts were the guys who were paid by the shops and who would
entice passers-by to come into the shop.
I thought it was pronounced "Toots", but it may have been pronounced
as it rhymes with "doubts".
Anybody familiar with it?
Of course. Racetrack touts are well-known. A "tout" (rhymes with
"doubt") approaches a person and tells that person he has a sure-thing
bet in the fourth race and says it's horse #4*. The tout then
approaches someone else and says the same thing, except it's horse #5.
He does this for all of the horses in the fourth race.

After the race, and #7 wins, the tout goes to the person he gave #7
as the tip and asks for cut of the winnings. The tout has always
picked a winner even though he recommended the rest of the field that
didn't win.

The skill of the tout is the ability to remember who he gave each tip
to, and to be able to locate that person after the race.

Those of us who have read Damon Runyon will know that "Harry the
Horse" was a tout.

*At racetracks, one places a bet by number. One doesn't bet on
Cooper's Comet by name; one bets on the number assigned to Cooper's
Comet. A bet might be "$2.00 to win on #7". The betting windows are
only open for the next race, so it will be #7 in the race coming up.
(There are also betting windows for any race, but they are separate
and well-marked.)

In Tijuana, people approached me and recommended a particular shop or
restaurant but I would not call them "touts". They were paid by the
shop or restaurant to bring in customers.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-24 20:35:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:23:42 -0700, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
We were not so much warned but advised about shopping in Hong Kong and
"Touts". Touts were the guys who were paid by the shops and who would
entice passers-by to come into the shop.
I thought it was pronounced "Toots", but it may have been pronounced
as it rhymes with "doubts".
Anybody familiar with it?
Of course. Racetrack touts are well-known. A "tout" (rhymes with
"doubt") approaches a person and tells that person he has a sure-thing
bet in the fourth race and says it's horse #4*. The tout then
approaches someone else and says the same thing, except it's horse #5.
He does this for all of the horses in the fourth race.
Fugue For Tinhorns
Frank Loesser
Featuring Stubby Kaye, Timothy Shew, JK Simmons & 1 more

Album Guys and Dolls (Original Broadway Cast Recording)

1 29.6K 7
Fugue For Tinhorns Lyrics

[NICELY]
I got the horse right here
The name is Paul Revere
And here's a guy that says if the weather's clear
Can do, can do, this guy says the horse can do
If he says the horse can do, can do, can do
[NICELY]
Can do

Can do

This guy says the horse can do

If he says the horse can do
Can do
Can do
[BENNY]
I'm pickin' Valentine
Cause on the morning line
A guy has got him figured at five to nine
Has chance
Has chance
This guy says the horse has chance

[RUSTY CHARLIE]
But look at Epitaph
He wins it by a half
According to this here in the Telegraph
For Paul Revere I'll bite
I hear his foot's all right
Of course it all depends if it rained last night
Likes mud
Likes mud
This X means the horse likes mud
If that means the horse likes mud
Likes mud
Likes mud
If he says the horse has chance
Has chance
Has chance
I know it's Valentine
The morning work looks fine
Besides the jockey's brother's a friend of mine
Needs race
Needs race
This guy says the horse needs race
"Big Threat"
"Big Threat"
This guy calls the horse "Big Threat"
If he calls the horse "Big Threat"
Big Threat
Big Threat
And just a minute, boys
I've got the feed box noise
It says the great-grandfather was Equipoise
I tell you Paul Revere
Now this is no bum steer
It's from a handicapper that's real sincere
Can do
Can do
This guy says the horse can do
If he says the horse can do
Can do
Can do
If he says the horse needs race
Needs race
Needs race
I'm picking Valentine
Cause on the morning line
The guy has got him figured at five to nine
Has chance
Has chance
This guy says the horse has chance
Shows class
Shows class
This guy says the horse shows class
If he says the horse shows class
Shows class
Shows class
So make it Epitaph
He wins it by a half
According to this here in the Telegraph
[RUSTY CHARLIE]
Epitaph

[it was in three columns on the page]

It can't possibly be the same JK Simmons who does insurance commercials
these days -- from 1955? Can it?
Tony Cooper
2019-10-24 23:16:20 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 13:35:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:23:42 -0700, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
We were not so much warned but advised about shopping in Hong Kong and
"Touts". Touts were the guys who were paid by the shops and who would
entice passers-by to come into the shop.
I thought it was pronounced "Toots", but it may have been pronounced
as it rhymes with "doubts".
Anybody familiar with it?
Of course. Racetrack touts are well-known. A "tout" (rhymes with
"doubt") approaches a person and tells that person he has a sure-thing
bet in the fourth race and says it's horse #4*. The tout then
approaches someone else and says the same thing, except it's horse #5.
He does this for all of the horses in the fourth race.
Fugue For Tinhorns
Frank Loesser
Featuring Stubby Kaye, Timothy Shew, JK Simmons & 1 more
Album Guys and Dolls (Original Broadway Cast Recording)
1 29.6K 7
Fugue For Tinhorns Lyrics
[NICELY]
I got the horse right here
Nicely-Nicely Johnson, in "Guys and Dolls" was not a tout. He was a
gambler. He bet his money on the horses, and touts don't bet their
own money.

A "tinhorn" is a person (such as a gambler) who pretends to have
money, ability, or influence.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It can't possibly be the same JK Simmons who does insurance commercials
these days -- from 1955? Can it?
It can, and you would know it was, if you went to imbd. He played
"Benny Southstreet" from April, 1992 to January, 1995. It was his
third appearance on Broadway. He was 35 years-old when he was in
"Guys and Dolls".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-25 04:14:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 13:35:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
...
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Fugue For Tinhorns
Frank Loesser
Featuring Stubby Kaye, Timothy Shew, JK Simmons & 1 more
Album Guys and Dolls (Original Broadway Cast Recording)
1 29.6K 7
Fugue For Tinhorns Lyrics
[NICELY]
I got the horse right here
Nicely-Nicely Johnson, in "Guys and Dolls" was not a tout. He was a
gambler. He bet his money on the horses, and touts don't bet their
own money.
...

It sure looks as if he was touting Paul Revere. Maybe he touted to
support his craps habit.
Post by Tony Cooper
A "tinhorn" is a person (such as a gambler) who pretends to have
money, ability, or influence.
Or knowledge?
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2019-10-25 13:17:53 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 22:14:29 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 13:35:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
...
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Fugue For Tinhorns
Frank Loesser
Featuring Stubby Kaye, Timothy Shew, JK Simmons & 1 more
Album Guys and Dolls (Original Broadway Cast Recording)
1 29.6K 7
Fugue For Tinhorns Lyrics
[NICELY]
I got the horse right here
Nicely-Nicely Johnson, in "Guys and Dolls" was not a tout. He was a
gambler. He bet his money on the horses, and touts don't bet their
own money.
...
It sure looks as if he was touting Paul Revere. Maybe he touted to
support his craps habit.
If he was betting his own money, there's no reason for him to tout the
horse. In fact, at the track's pari-mutual system, the fewer people
who bet on the horse the higher the payout if the horse wins.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mack A. Damia
2019-10-25 03:57:53 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 12:30:29 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:23:42 -0700, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 11:26:55 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
In a book I'm reading there's a character with the first name of
"Toots". Not a nickname. It's her legal name. She was named after
Toots Thielemans, a musician who played the harmonica* ("Toots" was
his nickname, though, and his legal first name was Jean-Baptist)
The book's author points out that "Toots" rhymes with "puts", not
"roots".
The only other "Toots" that I can think of was Toots Shore, the owner
of a famous NYC saloon and restaurant. (He was Bernard, legally) I
never visited the place, so I don't know how it was pronounced by the
crowd that went there.
"Toots", though, is a (disparaged) term for a woman like "Babe". I've
never used it, but would have been inclined to rhyme it with "roots".
Would it have cause any more distress to both use it *and*
mispronounce it?
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
When I was in Vietnam, 1968 - 1969, a friend and I went to Hong Kong
on a five day leave.
We were not so much warned but advised about shopping in Hong Kong and
"Touts". Touts were the guys who were paid by the shops and who would
entice passers-by to come into the shop.
I thought it was pronounced "Toots", but it may have been pronounced
as it rhymes with "doubts".
Anybody familiar with it?
Of course. Racetrack touts are well-known. A "tout" (rhymes with
"doubt") approaches a person and tells that person he has a sure-thing
bet in the fourth race and says it's horse #4*. The tout then
approaches someone else and says the same thing, except it's horse #5.
He does this for all of the horses in the fourth race.
After the race, and #7 wins, the tout goes to the person he gave #7
as the tip and asks for cut of the winnings. The tout has always
picked a winner even though he recommended the rest of the field that
didn't win.
The skill of the tout is the ability to remember who he gave each tip
to, and to be able to locate that person after the race.
Those of us who have read Damon Runyon will know that "Harry the
Horse" was a tout.
*At racetracks, one places a bet by number. One doesn't bet on
Cooper's Comet by name; one bets on the number assigned to Cooper's
Comet. A bet might be "$2.00 to win on #7". The betting windows are
only open for the next race, so it will be #7 in the race coming up.
(There are also betting windows for any race, but they are separate
and well-marked.)
In Tijuana, people approached me and recommended a particular shop or
restaurant but I would not call them "touts". They were paid by the
shop or restaurant to bring in customers.
I haven't thought about this particular word and its context to me for
ages. I now remember giving a speech about Hong Kong and my
experiences in Speech I at Penn State, 1972, and that's about it until
now.

I am certain it was "touts" ("doubts") as I heard it, but I am
*fairly* sure I have heard it pronounced "toots", as well. Some of
those guys on the street in Kowloon would give you a beer and a
joint.....and who knows what else if you had the money. Fun days,
though. Went with a guy who I see regularly for lunch in San Diego.

Hottest day of the year today. Like a blast furnace. Santa Ana.
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-25 04:05:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:23:42 -0700, Mack A. Damia
...
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mack A. Damia
When I was in Vietnam, 1968 - 1969, a friend and I went to Hong Kong
on a five day leave.
We were not so much warned but advised about shopping in Hong Kong and
"Touts". Touts were the guys who were paid by the shops and who would
entice passers-by to come into the shop.
I thought it was pronounced "Toots", but it may have been pronounced
as it rhymes with "doubts".
Anybody familiar with it?
Of course. Racetrack touts are well-known. A "tout" (rhymes with
"doubt") approaches a person and tells that person he has a sure-thing
bet in the fourth race and says it's horse #4*. The tout then
approaches someone else and says the same thing, except it's horse #5.
He does this for all of the horses in the fourth race.
After the race, and #7 wins, the tout goes to the person he gave #7
as the tip and asks for cut of the winnings. The tout has always
picked a winner even though he recommended the rest of the field that
didn't win.
The skill of the tout is the ability to remember who he gave each tip
to, and to be able to locate that person after the race.
...

That's a solid business model, but a tout who knows something about the
horses can improve his odds at some cost in stability. Presumably the
lad who unleashed the dog on Holmes thought he was that kind of tout.
Post by Tony Cooper
In Tijuana, people approached me and recommended a particular shop or
restaurant but I would not call them "touts". They were paid by the
shop or restaurant to bring in customers.
Would you call them steerers?
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2019-10-25 13:27:27 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 22:05:37 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:23:42 -0700, Mack A. Damia
...
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mack A. Damia
When I was in Vietnam, 1968 - 1969, a friend and I went to Hong Kong
on a five day leave.
We were not so much warned but advised about shopping in Hong Kong and
"Touts". Touts were the guys who were paid by the shops and who would
entice passers-by to come into the shop.
I thought it was pronounced "Toots", but it may have been pronounced
as it rhymes with "doubts".
Anybody familiar with it?
Of course. Racetrack touts are well-known. A "tout" (rhymes with
"doubt") approaches a person and tells that person he has a sure-thing
bet in the fourth race and says it's horse #4*. The tout then
approaches someone else and says the same thing, except it's horse #5.
He does this for all of the horses in the fourth race.
After the race, and #7 wins, the tout goes to the person he gave #7
as the tip and asks for cut of the winnings. The tout has always
picked a winner even though he recommended the rest of the field that
didn't win.
The skill of the tout is the ability to remember who he gave each tip
to, and to be able to locate that person after the race.
...
That's a solid business model, but a tout who knows something about the
horses can improve his odds at some cost in stability. Presumably the
lad who unleashed the dog on Holmes thought he was that kind of tout.
Post by Tony Cooper
In Tijuana, people approached me and recommended a particular shop or
restaurant but I would not call them "touts". They were paid by the
shop or restaurant to bring in customers.
Would you call them steerers?
I don't have a term for them. When I moved to Chicago in 1960, I had
very little money and spent a lot of time just walking the downtown
streets to get to know the city.

I can't remember for sure, but I think it was S. State Street where
all the strip clubs were located. (Maybe it was S. Wabash) In front
of each was a guy trying to entice people to come into the club. His
spiel included descriptions of the strippers and what their acts
consisted of. The guy would try engage the passer-by in a
conversation to make it a more personal appeal.

Today, some of the restaurants on Park Avenue in Winter Park (a street
with a lot of walking traffic) have a person outside handing out
menus, flyers, or small samples of some dish.

I don't have a term for either.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Moylan
2019-10-25 00:14:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
When I was in Vietnam, 1968 - 1969, a friend and I went to Hong Kong
on a five day leave.
We were not so much warned but advised about shopping in Hong Kong
and "Touts". Touts were the guys who were paid by the shops and who
would entice passers-by to come into the shop.
Touts (rhymes with shouts) can be found in many places. In Singapore I
was once chased down the street by someone who wanted to make me a suit.

You'll also find them in the red light district of many cities.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Mack A. Damia
2019-10-25 04:12:02 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 11:14:15 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Mack A. Damia
When I was in Vietnam, 1968 - 1969, a friend and I went to Hong Kong
on a five day leave.
We were not so much warned but advised about shopping in Hong Kong
and "Touts". Touts were the guys who were paid by the shops and who
would entice passers-by to come into the shop.
Touts (rhymes with shouts) can be found in many places. In Singapore I
was once chased down the street by someone who wanted to make me a suit.
You'll also find them in the red light district of many cities.
I knew this but had forgotten about it. I also thought that I had
remembered it being pronounced, "toot", as well, but I may have
confused it with the drug culture of which I knew nothing prior to
1973.
occam
2019-10-25 11:26:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Adler

(Please don't think that I'm a harmonica fan. Larry used to feature a
lot in Private Eye, in the days of old. He was the but of many a joke.)
Quinn C
2019-10-25 12:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
*The author identifies him as a "famous harmonica player". I have
trouble thinking of a harmonica player as "famous".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Adler
(Please don't think that I'm a harmonica fan. Larry used to feature a
lot in Private Eye, in the days of old. He was the but of many a joke.)
Is that better or worse than being the if of them?
--
For spirits when they please
Can either sex assume, or both; so soft
And uncompounded is their essence pure,
-- Milton, Paradise Lost
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