b***@gmail.com
2018-11-21 22:27:52 UTC
Does anyone know who the parents were of Sir Oliver Arundel of
Carhayes, Cornwall, who married Margaret Arundel, daughter of Raynulph de
Arundel, Lord Albominster? They had two sons, John Arundel of Trerise, who
marriedJane Tredannam, & Ralph Arundel of Carshayes, who married Elizabeth
Seneschal. Birth/death/marriage dates appreciated for both children too, and
anythingon Elizabeth's Seneschal line, if you have it.
I'm afraid you are out of luck - the early generations of the Arundells are
hazy at best, and notoriously muddled by secondary sources. Perhaps a
participant in SMG is working even now in the family's archives held in
Exeter, and can answer you question definitely, but failing that you can pay
your money & take your choice.
The most frequently cited references have been:-
1. *Notes by the 12th Lord Arundell of Wardour on the Family History*,
edited by ED Webb (London, 1916)
2. *The Early Genealogical History of the House of Arundel.....*, by JP
Yeatman (London, 1883)
3. *The Visitations of the County of Cornwall....*, edited by JL Vivian
I have not seen the first of these. (Can someone tell us if it's worth an
effort?)
The second is a very lavish production, dedicated to the then lord Arundell
of Wardour. It is a hideously sycophantic piece of work by a barrister and
minor historian who could not write for toffee and - to judge from his
proof-reading - could barely read either. (The man also wrote a feudal
history of Derbyshire and some other once-popular books.) Yeatman attempts
to prove that the Arundells were a cadet branch of the d'Aubigny (or de
Albini) earls of Arundel, and tries to interrrelate their descendants in
some extra ways to gild the lily. He blithely gives two different versions
of one bit of the information you are seeking. In a table headed "Pedigree
of the Family of Albini of England" on page 154 he shows "Sir Oliver de
Arundel, of Trenarren, ancestor of the Lords Arundel of Trerice" and his
wife as "Margery, d. and heir of Ralf de Arundel, of Albominster and
Streeton, 2nd son of John Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel". This Sir Oliver's
father is given as "Odo de Arundel", the second son of "Sir Renfred de
Arundel" and "Alice, dau and co-heir of Richard, Pincerna of Conarton".
However, in another table headed "The Pedigree of the Arundels of Lanherne
and Wardour shewing the presumed descent from the Earls of Arundel" on page
214, Yeatman gives the wife of this Sir Oliver and ancestress of the Trerice
branch as "Margaret, dau of Robert de Hochesham (?)".
Vivian, expressing doubt over the correct generation, makes the
corresponding Sir Oliver probably a son of Sir Renfrey de Arundell, who died
before 14 December 1280, and Alice de la Hurne (Lanherne), heiress of
Connerton etc. His wife is stated to be Margery, daughter of Rayner de
Albini, of Stratton who was the son of either an Aubigny (Albini) or
Fitzalan earl of Arundel.
Both of these sources should now be considered nearly worthless for the
early Arundells, and a thorough genealogical study of this family is
overdue. Meanwhile, the best guide is *The Cornish Lands of the Arundells of
Lanherne, Fourteenth to Sixteenth Centuries* by HSA Fox and OJ Padel, Devon
& Cornwall Record Society, new series, volume 41 (Exeter, 2000). There the
Trerice branch is shown to descend from Ralph Arundell, who died before
1369, and his wife Joan, daughter of Michael de Treres. This Ralph, whom
Yeatman makes a gransdson of the Sir Oliver of Trenarren discussed above,
was actually the younger (?) son of a John Arundell of the main Lanherne
branch, though it is not certain to which generation he belonged.
Peter Stewart
Hi Peter,Carhayes, Cornwall, who married Margaret Arundel, daughter of Raynulph de
Arundel, Lord Albominster? They had two sons, John Arundel of Trerise, who
marriedJane Tredannam, & Ralph Arundel of Carshayes, who married Elizabeth
Seneschal. Birth/death/marriage dates appreciated for both children too, and
anythingon Elizabeth's Seneschal line, if you have it.
I'm afraid you are out of luck - the early generations of the Arundells are
hazy at best, and notoriously muddled by secondary sources. Perhaps a
participant in SMG is working even now in the family's archives held in
Exeter, and can answer you question definitely, but failing that you can pay
your money & take your choice.
The most frequently cited references have been:-
1. *Notes by the 12th Lord Arundell of Wardour on the Family History*,
edited by ED Webb (London, 1916)
2. *The Early Genealogical History of the House of Arundel.....*, by JP
Yeatman (London, 1883)
3. *The Visitations of the County of Cornwall....*, edited by JL Vivian
I have not seen the first of these. (Can someone tell us if it's worth an
effort?)
The second is a very lavish production, dedicated to the then lord Arundell
of Wardour. It is a hideously sycophantic piece of work by a barrister and
minor historian who could not write for toffee and - to judge from his
proof-reading - could barely read either. (The man also wrote a feudal
history of Derbyshire and some other once-popular books.) Yeatman attempts
to prove that the Arundells were a cadet branch of the d'Aubigny (or de
Albini) earls of Arundel, and tries to interrrelate their descendants in
some extra ways to gild the lily. He blithely gives two different versions
of one bit of the information you are seeking. In a table headed "Pedigree
of the Family of Albini of England" on page 154 he shows "Sir Oliver de
Arundel, of Trenarren, ancestor of the Lords Arundel of Trerice" and his
wife as "Margery, d. and heir of Ralf de Arundel, of Albominster and
Streeton, 2nd son of John Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel". This Sir Oliver's
father is given as "Odo de Arundel", the second son of "Sir Renfred de
Arundel" and "Alice, dau and co-heir of Richard, Pincerna of Conarton".
However, in another table headed "The Pedigree of the Arundels of Lanherne
and Wardour shewing the presumed descent from the Earls of Arundel" on page
214, Yeatman gives the wife of this Sir Oliver and ancestress of the Trerice
branch as "Margaret, dau of Robert de Hochesham (?)".
Vivian, expressing doubt over the correct generation, makes the
corresponding Sir Oliver probably a son of Sir Renfrey de Arundell, who died
before 14 December 1280, and Alice de la Hurne (Lanherne), heiress of
Connerton etc. His wife is stated to be Margery, daughter of Rayner de
Albini, of Stratton who was the son of either an Aubigny (Albini) or
Fitzalan earl of Arundel.
Both of these sources should now be considered nearly worthless for the
early Arundells, and a thorough genealogical study of this family is
overdue. Meanwhile, the best guide is *The Cornish Lands of the Arundells of
Lanherne, Fourteenth to Sixteenth Centuries* by HSA Fox and OJ Padel, Devon
& Cornwall Record Society, new series, volume 41 (Exeter, 2000). There the
Trerice branch is shown to descend from Ralph Arundell, who died before
1369, and his wife Joan, daughter of Michael de Treres. This Ralph, whom
Yeatman makes a gransdson of the Sir Oliver of Trenarren discussed above,
was actually the younger (?) son of a John Arundell of the main Lanherne
branch, though it is not certain to which generation he belonged.
Peter Stewart
Currently trying to join the British Nobility Project post 742.
The Arundel, Courtenay and Vincent families of Cornwall are a current interest of mine.
I have the following information:
Sir Oliver Arundel, Lord of Carshay, or the English Castle, who married Margery, daughter and coheiress of Ralph. Lord of Albominster, son of George, Lord Arundel. and the lady Maud his wife, and left a son and heir, Ralph Arundel.
Source: Arundel of Trerice, Cornwall. Page 512 to 514.
A genealogical and heraldic history of the commoners of Great Britain and Ireland, enjoying territorial possessions or high official rank; but univested with heritable honours
by Burke, John, 1787-1848. Publication date 1835-38
https://archive.org/details/genealogicalheral01burk/page/512.
Currently unsupported by any other source. I think I have already found errors in this document with other Arundel's.
Regards
Bill Irving (Irving-332)
New Plymouth, New Zealand