It's been months, can we get 2 fundamental bugs addressed in 7.6 already

[Jeff Flowerday]

1) UNC paths
2) Ability to do a complete clear and scan with Security Enabled.

[virgiliomi]

Post by Jeff Flowerday
1) UNC paths

I have to admit, I haven't tried this, but based on how Squeezebox
Server can be set up to run as a Windows service using the SYSTEM
account, this could be the cause of not being able to access UNC
paths:

Any service or process running in the context of the Windows SYSTEM
account is not permitted to access UNC network paths. This is because
there is no way for the SYSTEM account to authenticate with a remote
host to verify permissions for the shares, files, and folders.

If you change the service to run with a specific user account, then
that user account will be used to authenticate to the remote host being
accessed, and UNC paths should be accessible (assuming there aren't
other issues with SB Server).

As evidenced by this MS Knowledge Base article, this has been a part of
the OS since the Windows NT days (Win95, 98, and ME do not count here as
they did not use the core NT security structure):
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/124184

[MrSinatra]

are there links to the bugs? numbers?
--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
sb2 & sbc (my home) / sbrec & ipeng (parents' home) - sbs 7.5.3b - win
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[Jeff Flowerday]

Post by MrSinatra
are there links to the bugs? numbers?

1) Has a bug entry, but it's well over 6 months since it was logged.
2) Not sure.

[andyg]

I fixed the UNC issue tonight, hopefully.

[Jeff Flowerday]

Post by andyg
I fixed the UNC issue tonight, hopefully.

Thank You!

[pippin]

2) Wow. THAT's why this never worked for me. I always thought Clear and
Rescan didn't work at all under 7.6

[andyg]

I'll fix the rescan + password one today.

[JJZolx]

Was wondering... is the external scanner going away? The internal new &
changed scan should be able to accomplish all that the external scanner
once did, right? If the 'clear database' part is actually in the
external scanner then it should be just a matter of moving that code
into the main program.

I'm thinking that eliminating the external scanner may move 7.6 a lot
closer to working with both MySQL and SQLite, as the main problems seem
to be coordinating the two types of scans and communication between the
main program and external scanner. I'm guessing these problems stem
from 7.6 having been derived from the embedded server of the Touch that
doesn't know about MySQL.

[andyg]

Right now clear & rescan uses the external scanner because it will be
faster. Scan for changes runs internally. Longer-term I have some
plans to replace most of the scanner code with C code that can run in a
separate thread in the main process, which will remove the need for an
external scanner.

[verypsb]

Will the 'Detect Changes Automatically' feature get some attention?
Right now you'll have to disable this feature on Windows just to get
7.6 up & running.

[andyg]

Yes it will, the main problem is the Windows auto-rescan code will take
the most work of the 3 OS's.

[JJZolx]

Post by andyg
Yes it will, the main problem is the Windows auto-rescan code will take
the most work of the 3 OS's.

Could auto-rescan on Windows (or maybe all platforms) be temporarily
disabled until it's fixed? It keeps a lot of users from ever getting
off the ground with 7.6 when the initial (external) scan and the
internal auto-scan run simultaneously.

[MrSinatra]

Post by JJZolx
Could auto-rescan on Windows (or maybe all platforms) be temporarily
disabled until it's fixed? It keeps a lot of users from ever getting
off the ground with 7.6 when the initial (external) scan and the
internal auto-scan run simultaneously.

i assume there will be a toggle to turn this off? as i've expressed
before, i want to control when sbs scans.
--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
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[JJZolx]

Post by MrSinatra
i assume there will be a toggle to turn this off? as i've expressed
before, i want to control when sbs scans.

There already is.

[Philip Meyer]

Post by JJZolx
There already is.

Last time I tried SBS 7.6, the option wasn't working too well - SBS
always seemed to be doing something with detecting file changes, but it
didn't seem to apply changes to the DB. i.e. the scanner ran, but
didn't apply any changes.

I'd like it if the whole auto-detect processing was completely turned
off, and in addition, this option could be used to not scan at startup
(I think it at least always performs a scan at startup if the library
is empty, and it was checking for changes at startup in SBS7.6 too).

Things may have moved on - this was my experience a couple of months
ago.

[andyg]

Scan with a password-protected server is now fixed.

[Jeff Flowerday]

Post by andyg
Scan with a password-protected server is now fixed.

Awesome! Again thanks!

[Phil Meyer]

Post by andyg
Scan with a password-protected server is now fixed.

Great news - thanks. Time to give 7.6 another try!

[pippin]

Post by andyg
Scan with a password-protected server is now fixed.

Wow, that was quick. Thanks.

[erland]

Longer-term I have some plans to replace most of the scanner code with C
code that can run in a separate thread in the main process, which will
remove the need for an external scanner.

Just don't forget that there might be nice to be able to integrate
third party scanners to enhance the standard scanner.

As you already know, currently Custom Scan and other similar plugins
which is triggered by the "rescan done" event makes 7.6 pretty unusable
with the 7.6 auto scanning enabled. The reason is that the third party
plugins doesn't get any information about what track that have been
rescanned, the event just says that a scan operation has finished, so
even if only a single track is rescanned, Custom Scan have to rescan
the complete 100 000 track library. But you already know about this
since we have discussed the possibility for more advanced plugin hooks
via mail earlier.

I could of course do as usual and implement a plugin specific solution
and start setting up file system change notifications in the plugin but
preferably I'd like to avoid doing that, would be a lot easier and
better for the user if there was a way to hook into the standard
scanner as described in enhancement #6023.
--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
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[gharris999]

Just don't forget that there might be nice to be able to integrate third
party scanners to enhance the standard scanner.
As you already know, currently Custom Scan and other similar plugins
which is triggered by the "rescan done" event makes 7.6 pretty unusable
with the 7.6 auto scanning enabled. The reason is that the third party
plugins doesn't get any information about what track that have been
rescanned, the event just says that a scan operation has finished, so
even if only a single track is rescanned, Custom Scan have to rescan
the complete 100 000 track library. But you already know about this
since we have discussed the possibility for more advanced plugin hooks
via mail earlier.
I could of course do as usual and implement a plugin specific solution
and start setting up file system change notifications in the plugin but
preferably I'd like to avoid doing that, would be a lot easier and
better for the user if there was a way to hook into the standard
scanner as described in enhancement #6023.

I see that Andy has just implemented this with svn 31747.

"Bug 6023, API for plugins to register hooks for different scanner
events, see documentation in the Slim::Utils::Scanner::API module."

[gharris999]

Post by gharris999
I see that Andy has just implemented this with svn 31747.
"Bug 6023, API for plugins to register hooks for different scanner
events, see documentation in the Slim::Utils::Scanner::API module."

What are the odds that this will be back-ported to 7.5.3? My PostScan
plugin would benefit from this.

[Andy Grundman]

Post by gharris999

Post by gharris999
I see that Andy has just implemented this with svn 31747.
"Bug 6023, API for plugins to register hooks for different scanner
events, see documentation in the Slim::Utils::Scanner::API module."

What are the odds that this will be back-ported to 7.5.3? My PostScan
plugin would benefit from this.

No chance. Look to the future. ;)

[erland]

Post by gharris999
I see that Andy has just implemented this with svn 31747.
"Bug 6023, API for plugins to register hooks for different scanner
events, see documentation in the Slim::Utils::Scanner::API module."

I've only been able to do some quick tests since Andy committed the
change, I plan to test it more during the weekend, but so far it looks
very promising, this is going to be great. We now have a solution for
third party scanner modules and this really opens up a lot of
possibilities, Custom Scan is going to work so much better with this
new API and it's going to be completely integrated with the standard
scanning process.

Thanks a lot Andy, I really appreciate this.
--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
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[copperstate]

Post by andyg
Right now clear & rescan uses the external scanner because it will be
faster. Scan for changes runs internally. ...

Imho this is quite an understatement. Using my lib with 3000 tracks
"clean & rescan" takes approx. 15 min whereas scanning for changes
takes about 1h30min.

I have posted more details here: :)

http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?p=602002

[JJZolx]

Post by andyg
Right now clear & rescan uses the external scanner because it will be
faster. Scan for changes runs internally. Longer-term I have some
plans to replace most of the scanner code with C code that can run in a
separate thread in the main process, which will remove the need for an
external scanner.

Would you like any of the problems of running with MySQL filed in
bugzilla?

[andyg]

Sure, but know that MySQL is not a top priority for 7.6.

[MrSinatra]

Erland,

is it the case that your plugins, and many others, will only work with
mysql and can't work with sqlite? or do i have that wrong?

i'm just curious as to future impact... my understanding is that
sqlite will be faster, the default, won't need an external separate
process, and will eliminate AV and win defender type issues, so its
likely where i'll be headed.
--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
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xp pro sp3 ie8 - p4(ht) 3.2ghz, 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid1 - d-link
dir-655 - 45k+ mp3
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[erland]

Post by MrSinatra
is it the case that your plugins, and many others, will only work with
mysql and can't work with sqlite? or do i have that wrong?

It's possible to make them work with both SQLite and MySQL, I will just
have to adapt them a bit. I think they mostly works in both today with
some exceptions. However, I'm not completely sure if I'm going to
support both MySQL and SQLite in 7.6, I might choose to only support
SQLite in 7.6. The reason for this is that it takes time to support
both so I prefer to focus on one of them.

In my opinion, Logitech should really just say that only SQLite will be
supported in 7.6, it's pretty obvious that only SQLite is going to work
if they don't prioritize MySQL bugs. So in a scenario like this, why
even give users a choice ?

Post by MrSinatra
i'm just curious as to future impact... my understanding is that
sqlite will be faster, the default, won't need an external separate
process, and will eliminate AV and win defender type issues, so its
likely where i'll be headed.

Not sure SQLite is faster, besides the scanner, 7.6 is faster than 7.5
but that's also related to other changes, especially related to the
scanning process.

The only doubt some people have had regarding SQLite is that:
- MySQL might be faster in larger libraries, but no one has been able
to prove that yet because 7.5 only works with MySQL and 7.6 only works
with SQLite at the moment.
- It's easier to access and manually do modifications to the MySQL
database due to its networked interface and all the client tools
available.

I assume Logitech is resonably convinced that SQLite will work good
enough in the largest library they like to support, so this means that
the first point isn't an issue. To me this means that there is really
no reason for them to support MySQL at all, it just takes up valuable
development time that could be used to correct other bugs. I would
prefer that they focus on fixing music related bugs instead of spending
time fixing bugs related to a low priority database backend.

So my suggestion to Logitech is to completely drop MySQL support in 7.6
and only focus on SQLite.

I suspect the only reason they haven't done so already is that they are
afraid to get critique from the community and don't want to spend time
discussing it. To me, Andy's "MySQL is not a top priority for 7.6"
statement really means "MySQL won't work in 7.6 and we don't plan to
support it".

My suggestion the the community is just to accept SQLite, it's here to
stay and it's a lot better than it was a few years back.

Let's focus on the music related stuff which really matters instead of
technical issues like this which don't have any impact on our music
listening experience.
--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland). If my answer
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[Wirrunna]

Post by erland
So my suggestion to Logitech is to completely drop MySQL support in 7.6
and only focus on SQLite.
I suspect the only reason they haven't done so already is that they are
afraid to get critique from the community and don't want to spend time
discussing it. To me, Andy's "MySQL is not a top priority for 7.6"
statement really means "MySQL won't work in 7.6 and we don't plan to
support it".
My suggestion the the community is just to accept SQLite, it's here to
stay and it's a lot better than it was a few years back.
Let's focus on the music related stuff which really matters instead of
technical issues like this which don't have any impact on our music
listening experience.

I agree totally with Erland.
Change SBS from a bactrian to a dromadary, they're faster.

[JJZolx]

Post by erland
So my suggestion to Logitech is to completely drop MySQL support in 7.6
and only focus on SQLite.

With all due respect, this request would seem to only make it easier
for you to maintain your plugins that so heavily rely on raw SQL.
Squeezebox Server 7.6 itself has very few problems running right now
with either SQLite or MySQL. I have them running side by side and see
no difference in any functionality. The only problem I'm aware of at
the moment is the external scanner failing to complete scans when
working with MySQL, and that bug may only be on Windows.

[erland]

With all due respect, this request would seem to only make it easier for
you to maintain your plugins that so heavily rely on raw SQL.

Well, I can easily just decide to support one of the database backends
even if Logitech support both, so from a plugin development perspective
it really doesn't matter. The only scenario that would make it easier
for me personally would be if ONLY MySQL was supported, but this
obviously isn't an option since MySQL costs a lot for Logitech support
staff due to problems with antivirus software.

Squeezebox Server 7.6 itself has very few problems running right now
with either SQLite or MySQL. I have them running side by side and see
no difference in any functionality.

Ok, if that's the situation the problem might be smaller than I
suspected, I got the impression from other posters that MySQL was badly
broken in 7.6.

The only problem I'm aware of at the moment is the external scanner
failing to complete scans when working with MySQL, and that bug may
only be on Windows.

Would you prefer to get that MySQL bug corrected or get some music
related bug corrected ?
You are as well as me aware of that this really is the choice with the
limited number of resources Logitech dedicates the the Squeezebox
development.
Are you sure this MySQL bug isn't just the tip of the iceberg ?

I have this device to play music, so I would prefer if the focus was to
spend time fixing bugs/enhancements that improves the music listening
experience.

As long as it works satisfactory, why do we care if they use SQLite or
MySQL ?
Why do we need the choice if SQLite works good enough ?
Have anyone seen any problems with SQLite ?

To me it feels like everyone just assumes that MySQL is faster in a
larger library but so far I haven't seen anyone that have actually
tried it.

Would it be possible for someone with a large library to compare:
- 7.5 with MySQL
and
- 7.6 with SQLite

Both these setups should work, as long as 7.6 with SQLite performs at
least as good as 7.5 with MySQL there shouldn't be a problem to drop
MySQL support.

They can keep the MySQL code if they like to, just don't spend any time
investigating, analyzing, supporting or fixing bugs related to MySQL. If
someone from the community feels MySQL is important, at least provide a
patch that solves the problem.
--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
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[Phil Meyer]

Post by erland
obviously isn't an option since MySQL costs a lot for Logitech support
staff due to problems with antivirus software.

I don't know if that is true any more. There were problems with Microsoft Security Essentials under Windows XP, but I haven't seen any reports in forum for ages. Newer versions seem to have fixed the issue? Are there really many people that report that issue still?

I never really had an issue (I had to set up an exception, but it just worked for me after that).

[Mnyb]

Post by Phil Meyer

Post by erland
obviously isn't an option since MySQL costs a lot for Logitech support
staff due to problems with antivirus software.

I don't know if that is true any more. There were problems with
Microsoft Security Essentials under Windows XP, but I haven't seen any
reports in forum for ages. Newer versions seem to have fixed the
issue? Are there really many people that report that issue still?
I never really had an issue (I had to set up an exception, but it just
worked for me after that).

You still see antivirus issues every week.

And to the general qestion MySQL is badly broken for me. On rpm Linux
.
If I shift to MySQL I can not complete a scan at all.
--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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[andynormancx]

Post by Phil Meyer
I don't know if that is true any more. There were problems with
Microsoft Security Essentials under Windows XP, but I haven't seen any
reports in forum for ages. Newer versions seem to have fixed the
issue?

MSE definitely still has problems with mysql under Vista, until you add
an exception.

I recently moved my Vista box from AVG to MSE and ran into problems
with SBS stopping during a scan. Took me a couple of hours to realise
what the problem was.

Had I been a less techy user I no doubt would have had to take up
valuable Logitech support resources to fix it.

[Phil Meyer]

Post by andynormancx
MSE definitely still has problems with mysql under Vista, until you add
an exception.

I thought Microsoft had fixed the issue; sounds like they fixed their bug with exceptions not working though.

I guess that when Logitech moved from SQLite to MySQL many years ago, there weren't any problems, and then a new security product came along that doesn't play nice with MySQL.

But the same thing could happen for any product on any OS. It's a feature of security software that they can cause problems. SQLite could have an issue on one particular OS with one particular anti-virus package in the future, just in the same way as MySQL has with Windows and MSE.

Supporting the two DB engines can't be all that different to supporting yet another flavour of operating system. eg. SBS has various OS-specific bits.

[andynormancx]

Post by Phil Meyer
I guess that when Logitech moved from SQLite to MySQL many years ago,
there weren't any problems, and then a new security product came along
that doesn't play nice with MySQL.

It wasn't just one security product, several of them have had similar
problems with mysql over the years.

[Mnyb]

Post by andynormancx
It wasn't just one security product, several of them have had similar
problems with mysql over the years.

I'd say almost all of them.

Many "normal" user falls on the first hurdle actually realising that
you have to setup the AV software. You see treads like "the scanner is
crashing" , or "no artwork in sbs". And then some would not accept the
settings and in some "home" or free version of some AV products you
don't have such "advanced" settings (obviusly crap software but thats
how it is) so you have to hack the registry.

McAffe and ESET also had bugs not only MSE, probably also comodo etc .

None of this is really logitechs problem , but it manifest when trying
to run the server and blame will fall acordingly. And it migth not be a
positive consumer experience to fall on you face when trying to set up
the thing :)
--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH and
assorted amps SiriuS, Classe' Primare and Dynadio speakers, Contour 4
Contour Center, and Contour 1.3SE rear ch. Rel Stadium 3 sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)

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http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=112
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[bluegaspode]

Post by Mnyb
None of this is really logitechs problem , but it manifest when trying
to run the server and blame will fall acordingly. And it migth not be a
positive consumer experience to fall on you face when trying to set up
the thing :)

And then in the future users see a setting to switch to MySQL and think
'hey I heard that - this is the famous open source DB, let's use this'
and fail because:
- Logitechs QA is not as dedicated to MySQL compared to SQLLite
- They still have they virus scanners on causing trouble (even me is
getting a support request once a month, which in the end boils down to
virus scanner issues).

So again unhappy customers for no reason.

Keeping MySQL only has drawbacks and very rare pros:

(+) you keep a minority happy who insist on using MySQL.
(-) you have twice the QA+Development costs (having a big automated
testsuite does not prevent this. In the end you need to do the
integration test, as the databases DO differ: transaction handling,
deadlock escalation, internal query optimization, index usage).
And if you consider MySQL as the first choice for huge music collection
you just have to care and can't just hope that queries that work well on
SQLite will do so on MySQL.
(-) third party devs have twice the effort: even if erland decides to
support only SQLite. Who will be the first to demand MySQL-support from
him ?
(-) you get all kind of trouble with virus-scanners again


My vote: just drop MySQL and keep away from all the troubles you will
have with supporting two databases.

By the way: did the server code had some closed source as well? If
that's the case using MySQL (as you link the GPL driver) would be a GPL
license violation anyway.
--
bluegaspode

Big Screen for great Boxes available now at your AppStore: *'Squeezebox
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[Phil Leigh]

+1 drop mysql asap, migrate all db plugins and move on!
--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
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[Phil Meyer]

Post by bluegaspode
And then in the future users see a setting to switch to MySQL and think
'hey I heard that - this is the famous open source DB, let's use this'
- Logitechs QA is not as dedicated to MySQL compared to SQLLite
- They still have they virus scanners on causing trouble (even me is
getting a support request once a month, which in the end boils down to
virus scanner issues).

That's fine - they'd have an option, and if it didn't work, could switch back.

Post by bluegaspode
So again unhappy customers for no reason.

Or happy customers because they have an option, and it may work better.
I see no drawbacks for end-users, as they have an option.
I see little drawback for provision of the DB engine, as it is already provided.
If it fails to work in future, maybe third-party devs would fix and provide patches.
It doesn't even have to be a simple switch in the GUI - maybe only power users that know what they are doing might configure it in prefs file directly.
I've never used the built-in MySQL instance, I've always used my own by manually configuring the prefs file.

There has been little analysis to compare performance. Will SQLite actually work well enough for everyone on every platform?
To totally remove MySQL, switch to SQLite and release only to find major issues with SQLite would be annoying.


I'm fairy happy to switch to SQLite, if there's evidence that it provides equivalent/better functionality/performance to my current experience, and not just because it has to be used for embedded SBS for Touch for Logitech to sell Touch's, and not detrimental to full SBS.

SQLite is certainly not as good for development (poor dev tools, in comparison), and performance is vastly reduced if you don't lock the DB file to allow DB probing. The SQL engine itself has lots of very iffy things, SQL query language isn't as good and is missing loads of things. Not sure about character encoding issues - we could end up with even more bugs/things that won't be fixed because DB doesn't support blah blah.

eg. "SQLite does not enforce the length of a VARCHAR. You can declare a VARCHAR(10) and SQLite will be happy to let you put 500 characters in it. And it will keep all 500 characters intact - it never truncates."

Sometimes you want a DB engine to fail/constrain data size. It pushes problems further into app code, so more checking may be required to protect app.

"Case-insensitive matching of Unicode characters does not work."

Post by bluegaspode
(-) you get all kind of trouble with virus-scanners again

I don't see this issue really. Anything that writes/locks files can have trouble with virus scanners. Why should SQLite be any safer to MySQL?

Phil

[erland]

Post by Phil Meyer
It doesn't even have to be a simple switch in the GUI - maybe only
power users that know what they are doing might configure it in prefs
file directly.

I agree with this, hiding the setting is exactly what Logitech should
do.
This will make all normal users to use SQLite but still makes it
possible for developers and advanced users to keep using MySQL.

If they do this they don't even have to prioritize correcting the MySQL
bugs, they can leave these up to the community and if they community
provide a patch they can commit it. No extra QA for Logitech and no
extra bug analyzing/fixing time for Logitech, they can put all efforts
on SQLite and just help the community commit MySQL patches if such
patches are provided by community members.

If patches aren't provided before the release we can always share them
afterwards, developers and advanced users will probably be happy to
apply a patch in their local system to make it work as they like.
--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland). If my answer
helped you and you like to encourage future presence on this forum
and/or third party plugin/applet development, 'donations are always
appreciated' (http://erland.isaksson.info/donate))
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[andyg]

Yeah good call guys, I've removed it from the UI. Thanks for the
feedback.

[Letten]

How do You ensure that users get a good experience when installing and
running plugins that are not compatible with both DB's?
--
Letten

Sboxes: Duet -> Audioengine A5, Classic -> Sony surround reciever ->
Jamo 5.1 Speakers / JBL 120Ti, 2 Boom's, 1 Radio
Server: HP Laptop, Core i5-540M, 4Gb DDR3, WOL (Wake-on-lan), 1.7watt
suspended, Windows 7, SBS 7.5.2
Router: Linksys WRT54G wireless
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[andynormancx]

Post by Letten
How do You ensure that users get a good experience when installing and
running plugins that are not compatible with both DB's?

That is easy enough, surely. Don't mark plugins as 7.6 compatible until
they have been tested with sqllite on 7.6 and anyone going out of their
way to run mysql will know that they are likely to have to deal with
compatibility issues.

[Letten]

Post by andynormancx
That is easy enough, surely. Don't mark plugins as 7.6 compatible until
they have been tested with sqllite on 7.6

Will 7.6 installation remove currently installed plugins then?

Post by andynormancx
and anyone going out of their way to run mysql will know that they are
likely to have to deal with compatibility issues.

Hope this will be VERY obvious for them.

And what about all those users who don't know the first thing about
what they install/run because they follow some forum recepie for:
this-will-install-sbs-on-your-NAS-or-plug-computer-even-though-you-dont-know-anything-about-linux

Seems from forum activity we have quite a few of those and they
frequently run into trouble.

If SQLite will be the only officially supported DB I really hope all
those guides and distros will move to/stay with SQLite.
--
Letten

Sboxes: Duet -> Audioengine A5, Classic -> Sony surround reciever ->
Jamo 5.1 Speakers / JBL 120Ti, 2 Boom's, 1 Radio
Server: HP Laptop, Core i5-540M, 4Gb DDR3, WOL (Wake-on-lan), 1.7watt
suspended, Windows 7, SBS 7.5.2
Router: Linksys WRT54G wireless
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[andynormancx]

Post by Letten
Will 7.6 installation remove currently installed plugins then?

SBS already has functionality in place so that it disables plugins that
aren't marked as being compatible with the version of SBS you are trying
to run them with.

At least that is the theory...

...however taking a look at a quick selection of plugins shows that
most are marked with a maxVersion of "*" or "7.*", so that isn't
actually going to help us :(

[erland]

Post by andynormancx
SBS already has functionality in place so that it disables plugins that
aren't marked as being compatible with the version of SBS you are
trying to run them with.
At least that is the theory...
...however taking a look at a quick selection of plugins shows that
most are marked with a maxVersion of "*" or "7.*", so that isn't
actually going to help us :(

And the reason for that is that most beta testers want to use my
plugins with 7.6 even if I haven't verified that they actually work.

I think the only way to solve this is to allow plugins to be installed
if their maxVersion is lower than the SBS version but indicate that
they might not be supported. Only the latest version of a particular
plugin should be possible to install, so if there is a plugin version
compatible with 7.5.x you can't force installation of the version of
the same plugin marked as compatible with 7.4.x.

We can for example add a status column in the "Plugins" page that
indicate "Tested" or "Untested", where plugins with a maxVersion lower
than the SBS version would show up as "Untested" and plugins with a
higher maxVersion would show up as "Tested". This way the user would
know the status of the plugin they install and can decide if they like
to risk installing untested plugins or not. Normal users can decide to
only check "Tested" plugins while beta testers also can choose to use
the "Untested" ones.
--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland). If my answer
helped you and you like to encourage future presence on this forum
and/or third party plugin/applet development, 'donations are always
appreciated' (http://erland.isaksson.info/donate))
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[Phil Meyer]

Post by Letten
Will 7.6 installation remove currently installed plugins then?

I think that plugins that have a maxVersion set to less than 7.6 will be disabled when they run.

Post by Letten

Post by andynormancx
and anyone going out of their way to run mysql will know that they are
likely to have to deal with compatibility issues.

Hope this will be VERY obvious for them.

No, there's not clues at all.

The maxVersion checking is just annoying. Some plugin devs set the version number to the version that they know the plugin works in. Therefore, when there are updates to SBS, the plugins get disabled/not listed, even though they might work fine. There's no clue as to why a plugin says it's incompatible; it's only a version check.

I set my maxVersion to *, as I am not aware if it will work or not.

What I think should be done is add provision for another version property (eg. maxTestedVersion). If maxVersion is exceeded, the plugin should not run/install. If maxTestedVersion is exceeded but maxVersion isn't, allow the plugin to run, but warn that the plugin may not be compatible. Perhaps automatically change logging level to debug, or something like that.

[erland]

Post by Phil Meyer
What I think should be done is add provision for another version
property (eg. maxTestedVersion). If maxVersion is exceeded, the plugin
should not run/install. If maxTestedVersion is exceeded but maxVersion
isn't, allow the plugin to run, but warn that the plugin may not be
compatible.

Might be a good idea but it means that for everyone running a nightly
more or less all plugins will be marked as incompatible. I have no idea
if tomorrows 7.5.3 nightly is going to break my plugins so I can only
mark set maxTestedVersion to the official 7.5.2 release since that's
the only version I've tested them with. To be honest, I can probably
only set them to 7.5.0 because that's the only version I've personally
really tested all functionality with.

Sure, I can also set my maxTestedVersion to 7.5.* and hope that
Logitech won't introduce anything that breaks anything in all the
methods I call in my plugins in nightly minor releases.

I can never mark them as tested with 7.6.* until 7.6.0 is released, so
everyone running nightly for the next major version is going to get all
third party plugins marked as incompatible.

A possible issue with a setup like this is that all users that
immediately upgrade to a new production release is going to see all my
plugins as incompatible because it usually takes me a few days/weeks to
ensure that I've verified that every thing still works correctly after a
new major release has been published.

I'm not against introducing a maxTestedVersion but I'm not sure it's
going to solve the problem, the reason is that it's not going to be
accurate for all plugins due to the fact that the third party
developers does this on their spare time.

Post by Phil Meyer
Perhaps automatically change logging level to debug, or something like
that.

Bad idea, this will fill all beta testers hard drive and make the
performance really bad when some plugins are activated. It could
possibly change the logging level one level below the default but not
to debug. Personally I think indicating that the plugin is incompatible
in the plugins page would be good enough, before and after it has been
installed.
--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland). If my answer
helped you and you like to encourage future presence on this forum
and/or third party plugin/applet development, 'donations are always
appreciated' (http://erland.isaksson.info/donate))
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[Phil Meyer]

Post by erland
Might be a good idea but it means that for everyone running a nightly
more or less all plugins will be marked as incompatible.

I'm not sure "incompatible" is the right word. I was thinking more of a warning that the plugin is "Not Tested", "Not Verified for this point release", etc.
i.e. people running a SBS beta release will be able to run the plugin where the developer has no reason to doubt that it won't work, but the beta test user should be aware that the plugin might not function correctly.

Post by erland

Post by Phil Meyer
Perhaps automatically change logging level to debug, or something like
that.

Bad idea, this will fill all beta testers hard drive and make the
performance really bad when some plugins are activated. It could
possibly change the logging level one level below the default but not
to debug. Personally I think indicating that the plugin is incompatible
in the plugins page would be good enough, before and after it has been
installed.

Yeah, I wasn't convinced myself that setting to debug would be a good idea. I'm not sure if SBS could know enough about a plugin's logging config to be able to automatically change it anyway (there's no fixed relationship from a plugin name to log category name, and nothing to stop a plugin setting up more than one log category, etc).

However, my experience is that most plugins don't log much, even in debug mode, and that it doesn't affect performance much.

The default level is "Error" I think? If possible, switching to Warning level might be a good idea.

[1007]

Hallo
UNC is working now but i have
no album arts now.

[slate]

Post by 1007
Hallo
UNC is working now but i have
no album arts now.

Have you tried doing a "clear and rescan"?
--
slate

Main: Duet (Audiocom) -> Beresford Caiman -> Carver A-500x -> B&W 704
Office: Duet -> Technics SU-V50 -> Stax SR84 Pro
Server: Zotac IONITX-A, 4 GB, 1 TB WD EADS, Win7 w. 7.6 (SQLite w. High
Mem)
Tied together by D-Link DIR-655 + DGS-1008D
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[maniac103]

Post by erland
This will make all normal users to use SQLite but still makes it
possible for developers and advanced users to keep using MySQL.
If they do this they don't even have to prioritize correcting the MySQL
bugs, they can leave these up to the community and if they community
provide a patch they can commit it. No extra QA for Logitech and no
extra bug analyzing/fixing time for Logitech, they can put all efforts
on SQLite and just help the community commit MySQL patches if such
patches are provided by community members.

For that to work, they have to actually look at provided patches ;) -
what personally makes 7.6 impossible to use with MySQL for me is 'bug
15997' (http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15997) (hint at
Logitech people: with patch ;) ).
Other than that, I occasionally have 100% CPU load of the mysqld
process, but that may be related to 'bug 16089'
(http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=16089), which is supposed
to be fixed now.

[MrSinatra]

i'm not a dev obviously, but imo they should just support sqlite and
drop official support for mysql soon after releasing 7.6, and consider
maybe depricating it altogether if supporting it in any way constrains
the product or costs them dev time. (and certainly removing the gui
option is a clear indication where this is headed)

i agree with erland that concentrating on one just one or the other
makes best use of their time, and i think sqlite is the right choice
b/c i have had many problems not with AV, but windows defender, that i
believe cost me two raptor HDs. the cpu/hard drive swapping was so
intense, that scans literally killed those drives. (i reported a bug,
but the problem has seemed to subside, not sure why)

anyway, erland says his plugins (which i don't use, but i will test the
one this weekend!) will work on sqlite. so my question is what
indispensible plugin or feature do we lose if mysql is no longer
supported?

frankly, i doubt there is any. someone might already have mysql
installed and running for some other reason, and just not like the so
called "ineffiency" of running sqlite too, but come on... i think
whatever niche cases there are, really don't hold any water. give me a
showstopping reason as to why mysql must be maintained, or get over it.
--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
sb2 & sbc (my home) / sbrec & ipeng (parents' home) - sbs 7.5.3b - win
xp pro sp3 ie8 - p4(ht) 3.2ghz, 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid1 - d-link
dir-655 - 45k+ mp3
::VOTE FOR 'BUG 15604'
(http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15604)!!!::
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[Phil Meyer]

Post by MrSinatra
b/c i have had many problems not with AV, but windows defender, that i
believe cost me two raptor HDs.

??? Are you saying that because SBS was using MySQL, it cost you two raptor HD's, and switching to SQLite will obviously prevent that from ever happening again?

Or in reality perhaps Windows Defender was the problem, and thus removing that would prevent the problem.

Post by MrSinatra
anyway, erland says his plugins (which i don't use, but i will test the
one this weekend!) will work on sqlite.

Might not work as well - who knows unless they are completely regression tested (and with comparative stats to see whether there's an improvement or degradation in performance).

Post by MrSinatra
so my question is what
indispensible plugin or feature do we lose if mysql is no longer
supported?

Who knows, unless everything is retested. And where several of the third-party plugin devs have departed or no longer maintaining their plugins, how will they be upgraded?

Post by MrSinatra
frankly, i doubt there is any.

Quite possibly most will work. But also likely that a few will not without (minor) changes.

Post by MrSinatra
whatever niche cases there are, really don't hold any water. give me a
showstopping reason as to why mysql must be maintained, or get over it.

In the old days, when there was SlimServer, it used its own data structure, not a DB engine.
Then it was changed to use SQLite.
This had loads of problems, and thus the engine was switched to use MySQL. Support for SQLite was dropped instead of maintaining it in case it was ever switched back. This has worked well; it is a known and trusted entity. It will work better with large libraries (but at what library size is unknown). There are less locking issues; it is a better DB engine with better tools.

There was much joy with devs when SQLite was dropped and MySQL was used.

It just seems strange to me to totally remove support for the engine, seeing that:
1) history has shown that this product has changed it's mind over DB engine several times already.
2) MySQL worked fine, and really should be simple to maintain:
a) DB Engine comms is a one-off job, already done (but broken). Should have added support for SQLite, rather than change support. It would be a bit like changing WixXP support for Vista, instead of adding Vista support.
b) SQL statements have some minor differences (MySQL generally has more functionality - I think closer support of ANSI SQL, and better extended functions support). In most cases ANSI-SQL will work with both engines.

Of course, the only real reason why DB engine is changing again is to support Tiny SBS, a product that has much reduced functionality, otherwise I'm pretty sure full SBS wouldn't be changing. That driving decision is going to creep in all the time, with full SBS functionality being reduced to meet requirements of TinySBS.

At the same time, I agree - if SQLite were indeed a better solution, there'd be no reason to support MySQL. However, SQLite isn't a better solution (for full SBS). I'm thinking that actually, full SBS isn't so much on the agenda these days, just Tiny SBS as that is a selling point for newer hardware players. Maybe OS support will be dropped next, because it only needs to run on Linux to run on Touch (I think not, but maybe more development for Tiny SBS and less of a driver for full SBS, and Tiny SBS bugs/enhancements may take precidence over support for lesser used OS's in full SBS).

No doubt that some time in the future I will switch to 7.6 with SQLite. But at the moment, 7.6/SQLite doesn't seem to run too well for me. It doesn't seem to improve performance, and some plugins don't work. There's little incentive (killer features in 7.6) - yet!

Phil

[MrSinatra]

Post by Phil Meyer

Post by MrSinatra
b/c i have had many problems not with AV, but windows defender, that i
believe cost me two raptor HDs.

??? Are you saying that because SBS was using MySQL, it cost you two
raptor HD's, and switching to SQLite will obviously prevent that from
ever happening again?
Or in reality perhaps Windows Defender was the problem, and thus
removing that would prevent the problem.

hard to do, no, impossible to do, when its part of the operating
system.

besides, logitech isn't in the business of martyring itself. it is the
parasite, it doesn't have the weight to tell microsoft whats up. they
know they need to give customers the best experience.

and yes, i am saying SBS cost me two hard drives. when SBS was killed
in task manager, the issues stopped. which app was at fault really
isn't the point.

Post by Phil Meyer

Post by MrSinatra
anyway, erland says his plugins (which i don't use, but i will test

the

Post by MrSinatra
one this weekend!) will work on sqlite.

Might not work as well - who knows unless they are completely
regression tested (and with comparative stats to see whether there's an
improvement or degradation in performance).

i don't know, and i don't worry about it, since i don't use plugins
generally, but i take erland at his word, and like i said i don't hear
any big reason which outwieghs the benefits.

Post by Phil Meyer

Post by MrSinatra
so my question is what
indispensible plugin or feature do we lose if mysql is no longer
supported?

Who knows, unless everything is retested. And where several of the
third-party plugin devs have departed or no longer maintaining their
plugins, how will they be upgraded?

always the case. you could have plugins break just by a new version on
SBS that still uses mysql. frankly, this is not compelling.

Post by Phil Meyer

Post by MrSinatra
frankly, i doubt there is any.

Quite possibly most will work. But also likely that a few will not
without (minor) changes.

to be clear, i was saying frankly i doubt there is any INDISPENSIBLE
plugin or feature that will be lost. surely some things will be lost,
but i haven't heard anyone mention a showstopper.

Post by Phil Meyer

Post by MrSinatra
whatever niche cases there are, really don't hold any water. give me

a

Post by MrSinatra
showstopping reason as to why mysql must be maintained, or get over

it.
In the old days, when there was SlimServer, it used its own data
structure, not a DB engine.
Then it was changed to use SQLite.
This had loads of problems, and thus the engine was switched to use
MySQL. Support for SQLite was dropped instead of maintaining it in
case it was ever switched back. This has worked well; it is a known
and trusted entity. It will work better with large libraries (but at
what library size is unknown). There are less locking issues; it is a
better DB engine with better tools.
There was much joy with devs when SQLite was dropped and MySQL was used.
1) history has shown that this product has changed it's mind over DB
engine several times already.
a) DB Engine comms is a one-off job, already done (but broken).
Should have added support for SQLite, rather than change support. It
would be a bit like changing WixXP support for Vista, instead of adding
Vista support.
b) SQL statements have some minor differences (MySQL generally has
more functionality - I think closer support of ANSI SQL, and better
extended functions support). In most cases ANSI-SQL will work with
both engines.
Of course, the only real reason why DB engine is changing again is to
support Tiny SBS, a product that has much reduced functionality,
otherwise I'm pretty sure full SBS wouldn't be changing. That driving
decision is going to creep in all the time, with full SBS functionality
being reduced to meet requirements of TinySBS.

while tinysbs is probably the driving reason, there are lots of other
good reasons, like other low-powered hardware, and eliminating extra
processes and software conflicts. to me it makes perfect sense.

Post by Phil Meyer
At the same time, I agree - if SQLite were indeed a better solution,
there'd be no reason to support MySQL. However, SQLite isn't a better
solution (for full SBS).

and i am saying why do you say that? what exactly do you lose that
outweighs the benefits of sqlite?

the benefits of switching to sqlite are clear as a bell to me. the
drawbacks clear as mud.

Post by Phil Meyer
I'm thinking that actually, full SBS isn't so much on the agenda these
days, just Tiny SBS as that is a selling point for newer hardware
players. Maybe OS support will be dropped next, because it only needs
to run on Linux to run on Touch (I think not, but maybe more
development for Tiny SBS and less of a driver for full SBS, and Tiny
SBS bugs/enhancements may take precidence over support for lesser used
OS's in full SBS).

unlikely. this would only happen if they started selling a server box
to go with the player box, (meaning something better than the touch
server). besides, they have such a large installed userbase, i just
can't see it happening, it would alienate way too many users.

Post by Phil Meyer
No doubt that some time in the future I will switch to 7.6 with SQLite.
But at the moment, 7.6/SQLite doesn't seem to run too well for me. It
doesn't seem to improve performance, and some plugins don't work.
There's little incentive (killer features in 7.6) - yet!
Phil

i refuse to even test 7.6 yet. it sounds nightmarish to me. but thats
the nature of the beast. i expect that over time they will get sqlite
running smoothly on 7.6, and when they do, and get closer to actually
releasing it, i'll be happy to move to it. i just don't see any reason
to worry about and/or lament the switch, and for me, i think it will be
an improvement.
--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
sb2 & sbc (my home) / sbrec & ipeng (parents' home) - sbs 7.5.3b - win
xp pro sp3 ie8 - p4(ht) 3.2ghz, 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid1 - d-link
dir-655 - 45k+ mp3
::VOTE FOR 'BUG 15604'
(http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15604)!!!::
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[Phil Leigh]

7.6 + sqlite on xp is very usable/robust for me and has been for many
months.
However, I don't use Erlands plugins...
--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect
cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.
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[erland]

i don't use plugins generally, but i take erland at his word, and like i
said i don't hear any big reason which outwieghs the benefits.

There are problems with some of them yet on SQLite, I've really only
tested them with 7.5.x and MySQL so I'm sure there are still a lot of
bugs if they are used with 7.6 and SQLite. I plan to test them a bit
more after 7.6 has been released, don't want to do it at the moment
because then I need to redo the testing when 7.6 is released since
there might be a lot changes between today and the release date.
--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland). If my answer
helped you and you like to encourage future presence on this forum
and/or third party plugin/applet development, 'donations are always
appreciated' (http://erland.isaksson.info/donate))
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[Phil Meyer]

Post by erland
There are problems with some of them yet on SQLite, I've really only
tested them with 7.5.x and MySQL so I'm sure there are still a lot of
bugs if they are used with 7.6 and SQLite. I plan to test them a bit
more after 7.6 has been released, don't want to do it at the moment
because then I need to redo the testing when 7.6 is released since
there might be a lot changes between today and the release date.

I've no doubt that there's not much to change to get it to function the same. However, any custom SQL that has been written by users (or generated from templates) could also be wrong. Users could just recreate them from the templates again, or power users would know what to change, but it's not something that can happen automatically during migration.

More of a concern would be performance related changes. eg. effects it may have on joins/indexes, which TrackStat will depend on. From my limited play with 7.6 (SQLite) Browsing music library seemed a lot slower. I'll try updating to latest though, because there was a recent bug fix for scan optimisation phase (wasn't being run).

Also, a general concern of a change in DB engine is character traits. SBS has always had a multitude of issues with character encodings, unicode conversions, etc, and the DB engine could mean this will result in new issues/old issues reappearing. Maybe this could affect TrackStat.

SQLite has some weird ideas. eg. a VARCHAR column has no length constraint, even if it defined with one. Maybe some of the weirdness that I remember from previous versions (quite a long time ago now) has been improved.

[Phil Meyer]

Post by MrSinatra
hard to do, no, impossible to do, when its part of the operating
system.
besides, logitech isn't in the business of martyring itself. it is the
parasite, it doesn't have the weight to tell microsoft whats up. they
know they need to give customers the best experience.
and yes, i am saying SBS cost me two hard drives. when SBS was killed
in task manager, the issues stopped. which app was at fault really
isn't the point.

Okay, you can blame SBS if you like, but I don't see what that has to do with MySQL. When SBS uses SQLite, it *could* have similar conflicts with other software, outside of the control of SBS. i.e. if the DB file on disk is locked, a virus scanner wouldn't be able to read the content and throw a wobbly.

Post by MrSinatra
i don't know, and i don't worry about it, since i don't use plugins
generally, but i take erland at his word, and like i said i don't hear
any big reason which outwieghs the benefits.

Or any particular reason why a switch is necessary.

Post by MrSinatra
always the case. you could have plugins break just by a new version on
SBS that still uses mysql. frankly, this is not compelling.

True. It's just more likely.

Post by MrSinatra
while tinysbs is probably the driving reason, there are lots of other
good reasons, like other low-powered hardware, and eliminating extra
processes and software conflicts. to me it makes perfect sense.

There's loads of extra processes that get spawned from SBS. If you look in server\Bin\MSWin32-x86-multi-thread, you'll see several binary images for file type support. e.g. lame for transcoding to mp3. Perhaps all of these should be re-written to be embedded inside SBS to eliminate extra processes and software conflicts? I think not! Firewall/AV software can (and does!) cause any of these things from working.

Post by MrSinatra
and i am saying why do you say that? what exactly do you lose that
outweighs the benefits of sqlite?

And I'm saying what are the clear benefits of SQLite? There's no clear benefits of either; and indeed some people will see advantages/disadvantages with either, depending on their OS, size of library, AV software, etc.
It's like saying there's a clear advantage for SBS to only support Linux, as that is the only OS that it needs to support for Tiny SBS, and Windows auto-file change detection is much harder to implement, so some Windows/MAC OS functionality will be removed. Having support for all of them provides choice and flexibility. The user doesn't have to choose which flavour of OS, because it automatically uses the right support libraries.

Post by MrSinatra
unlikely. this would only happen if they started selling a server box
to go with the player box, (meaning something better than the touch
server). besides, they have such a large installed userbase, i just
can't see it happening, it would alienate way too many users.

The current userbase can continue with current SBS software. They don't have to continue to support existing users and Full SBS indefinitely. They recently announced less support for SB3 (endeavor to make new SBS work with older products, but not guaranteed).

Post by MrSinatra
i refuse to even test 7.6 yet. it sounds nightmarish to me.

It seems much improved since this side of xmas. I'm always happy to test bleeding edge, but until recently I found it unuseable. Critical issues didn't seem to be getting fixed. It's now harder to run SBS 7.5.x and 7.6 in parallel, as it can't share the same database/plugins, so it's an all or nothing switch forwards (there's no going back).

Post by MrSinatra
i expect that over time they will get sqlite running smoothly on 7.6

I hope so. I hope that it doesn't go out with any new bugs and any degradation of performance, resilience, reliability, and other non-functional requirement issues.
Maybe these points will be better; maybe not. No-one reliably knows, other than there will be differences.

Anyway, I seem to be in the vast minority with concerns over SQLite, so fingers crossed it will all be okay in the end.

Phil

[JackOfAll]

Post by MrSinatra
and yes, i am saying SBS cost me two hard drives. when SBS was killed
in task manager, the issues stopped. which app was at fault really
isn't the point.

Glad you got to the bottom of exactly what was damaging your hard
drives! LOL.

[MrSinatra]

Post by Phil Meyer
Or any particular reason why a switch is necessary.

thats b/c u either don't listen or reject outright what is said.
sqlite will be better for lower powered hardware, according to the
devs. it will result in fewer software conflicts, according to the
devs. it will be a better exp overall, according to the devs.

you don't believe them. fine. i have seen the problems firsthand of
mysql, so i have np giving the benefit of the doubt, and if they don't
deliver, i will certainly say so.

Post by Phil Meyer
There's loads of extra processes that get spawned from SBS. If you look
in server\Bin\MSWin32-x86-multi-thread, you'll see several binary images
for file type support. e.g. lame for transcoding to mp3. Perhaps all
of these should be re-written to be embedded inside SBS to eliminate
extra processes and software conflicts? I think not! Firewall/AV
software can (and does!) cause any of these things from working.> > >

strawman. my point was about a separate mysql process. i have seen
the problems first hand. going to sqlite should, in theory, help. we
shall see. also, i didn't like how sbs would leave processes running
that were no longer needed when SBS was closed.

Post by Phil Meyer

Post by MrSinatra
and i am saying why do you say that? what exactly do you lose that
outweighs the benefits of sqlite?

And I'm saying what are the clear benefits of SQLite? There's no clear
benefits of either;> > > >

so as far as you know, you lose nothing. if you don't believe the
devs, thats fine, but they obviously disagree with you.

Post by Phil Meyer

Post by MrSinatra
unlikely. this would only happen if they started selling a server

box

Post by MrSinatra
to go with the player box, (meaning something better than the touch
server). besides, they have such a large installed userbase, i just
can't see it happening, it would alienate way too many users.

The current userbase can continue with current SBS software. They
don't have to continue to support existing users and Full SBS
indefinitely. They recently announced less support for SB3 (endeavor
to make new SBS work with older products, but not guaranteed).> > > >

what they can do and what they will do are two totally different
things. it makes sense to truncate older products over time, all
companies do, but that doesn't mean that the server itself is in
any danger any time soon of being unsupported, and with the DLNA
work its clear they aren't currently headed in that direction
currently.

Post by Phil Meyer
Glad you got to the bottom of exactly what was damaging your hard
drives! LOL.> > > >

i'm a comptia A+ certified hardware tech. i know what i'm talking
about. do you?

--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
sb2 & sbc (my home) / sbrec & ipeng (parents' home) - sbs 7.5.3b - win
xp pro sp3 ie8 - p4(ht) 3.2ghz, 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid1 - d-link
dir-655 - 45k+ mp3
::VOTE FOR 'BUG 15604'
(http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15604)!!!::
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[Phil Meyer]

sqlite will be better for lower powered hardware, according to the devs.

Based on what exactly? Better in what way? If it's better for low-spec hardware, why wouldn't it be better for high-spec hardware? Is there a linear performance comparison with all sizes of library? Why isn't every DB on the planet powered by SQLite if it's the best?

it will result in fewer software conflicts, according to the devs.

*Might* be true, but then again, it may cause more software conflicts. MySQL has had some known issues, largely resolved by other app software changes, rather than SBS changes. Who's to say that a SQLite solution won't have similar/different conflicts? The solution does pretty much the same thing.

strawman. my point was about a separate mysql process. i have seen
the problems first hand. going to sqlite should, in theory, help.

How does SQLite, in theory, help?

I did a quick Google, and found cases where Windows Defender/MSE was causing software conflicts due to locking sqlite DB's, just the same as the MySQL issue. Here's one example:
http://www.pubbs.net/201010/sqlite/8126-sqlite-antivirus-scannerwindows-lock-interference-problem.html

shall see. also, i didn't like how sbs would leave processes running
that were no longer needed when SBS was closed.

I don't think it does, by default, unless you have a problem.

[MrSinatra]

Post by Phil Meyer

Post by MrSinatra
sqlite will be better for lower powered hardware, according to the

devs.
Based on what exactly? Better in what way? If it's better for
low-spec hardware, why wouldn't it be better for high-spec hardware?
Is there a linear performance comparison with all sizes of library?
Why isn't every DB on the planet powered by SQLite if it's the best?

ask the devs. i presume its less resource intensive, b/c SBS needs
aren't so great as to require a full blown DB.

Post by Phil Meyer

Post by MrSinatra
it will result in fewer software conflicts, according to the devs.

*Might* be true, but then again, it may cause more software conflicts.
MySQL has had some known issues, largely resolved by other app software
changes, rather than SBS changes. Who's to say that a SQLite solution
won't have similar/different conflicts? The solution does pretty much
the same thing.

i assume the devs know what they are talking about. i am fairly sure
the activity between two separate processes is what tripped up windef
and some AV.

Post by Phil Meyer

Post by MrSinatra

strawman. my point was about a separate mysql process. i have

seen

Post by MrSinatra

the problems first hand. going to sqlite should, in theory,

help.
How does SQLite, in theory, help?

again, ask the devs, i assume they know what they are talking about.

as i just said, i believe that one process is less likely to raise red
flags.

Post by Phil Meyer
I did a quick Google, and found cases where Windows Defender/MSE was
causing software conflicts due to locking sqlite DB's, just the same as
http://www.pubbs.net/201010/sqlite/8126-sqlite-antivirus-scannerwindows-lock-interference-problem.html

Post by MrSinatra

shall see. also, i didn't like how sbs would leave processes

running

Post by MrSinatra

that were no longer needed when SBS was closed.

I don't think it does, by default, unless you have a problem.

it did, and it may still. i raised a bug about it and it was fixed,
but it seemed to recur now and then regardless.

ur fight isn't with me, its with the devs. the devs seem to think
sqlite is better, for various reasons some of which i have repeated.
if you want answers as to why why why, ask them. for my part, having
seen the current state of things, i am happy to see them attempt to
address issues i have seen first hand, and since they know more about
all this then i ever will, i afford them the benefit of the doubt.
--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
sb2 & sbc (my home) / sbrec & ipeng (parents' home) - sbs 7.5.3b - win
xp pro sp3 ie8 - p4(ht) 3.2ghz, 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid1 - d-link
dir-655 - 45k+ mp3
::VOTE FOR 'BUG 15604'
(http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15604)!!!::
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[JackOfAll]

i'm a comptia A+ certified hardware tech. i know what i'm talking
about. do you?

With the greatest respect, being a comptia A+ hardware tech doesn't
anything to do with it. It is perfectly obvious you don't know what
you're talking about by blaming HDD destruction on SBS.

(In any case, any of the techs I employ would be smart enough to add
directories containing binary db files to the anti-virus exclusion
list. I'd expect a competent tech to be able to read the MySQL
reference manual, with particular attention to the section about
installing on M$ Windows, whether the MySQL component is provided as
part of another software distribution or not.)

[MrSinatra]

if its so obvious, prove it.

the hard drives were driven into read/write death. i fully accept the
blame for catching onto it too slowly, but the constant churning of
scans that pegged the hard drives and cpu at 100% for hours on end did
the hard drives in. the first one i had had for a good while, but died
soon after
SBS started exhibiting the issues.

the second one (which had been used enough previously to know it was
good but did not have lot of wear on it) died within weeks of being put
in to replace the first one, while the sbs scan problems continued.
there is no question in my mind that sbs pegging these drives wore them
out. of course, heat is the ultimate culprit, but that heat would never
had existed if the churning wasn't going on that sbs was causing, for so
long at a time. the bug i reported was confirmed by other users calling
in to logitech support to complain of the exact same issues.

so unless you can show otherwise, i suggest you stow it.

as for your techs, good for them, i'm so happy for them. of course, AV
was not the issue, it was windows defender, and at that time it did not
handle exclusions properly, (in fact, i don't think you could add any
back then, forgive my memory which i am sure is not the equal of your
techs) although it isn't certain that it was the cause, as sbs had some
new scanner code back then. it hadn't always done this, it started, did
it for a while, and then gradually seemed to stop doing it. no
reasonable explanation for what changed was ever provided by logitech.

as for installing mysql, i let sbs handle that, since only sbs used it.
why would i need to do anything about that? why fixate on that? why
should i do anything other than accept the SBS default installation?
--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
sb2 & sbc (my home) / sbrec & ipeng (parents' home) - sbs 7.5.3b - win
xp pro sp3 ie8 - p4(ht) 3.2ghz, 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid1 - d-link
dir-655 - 45k+ mp3
::VOTE FOR 'BUG 15604'
(http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15604)!!!::
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[erland]

Post by MrSinatra

Post by Phil Meyer
I'm thinking that actually, full SBS isn't so much on the agenda these
days, just Tiny SBS as that is a selling point for newer hardware
players. Maybe OS support will be dropped next, because it only needs
to run on Linux to run on Touch (I think not, but maybe more
development for Tiny SBS and less of a driver for full SBS, and Tiny
SBS bugs/enhancements may take precidence over support for lesser used
OS's in full SBS).

unlikely. this would only happen if they started selling a server
box to go with the player box, (meaning something better than the
touch server). besides, they have such a large installed userbase, i
just can't see it happening, it would alienate way too many users.

I'm skeptical about a server box because to get good performance it's
going to make the complete solution too expensive. Very few people
besides the enthusiasts are going to buy a $300 server box if they also
need an additional $200-$300 player to be able to play the music. A
combo box for $500 is also going to be too expensive. Simpler UPnP
solutions from competitors are going to look more attractive to the
mass market at those prices. Mass market don't care about sound quality
and advanced features, which is the main advantage SBS/Squeezebox has
over simpler UPnP based products. If you think I'm wrong about this,
mention one other product with similar features as SBS which don't need
a computer and is cheaper than the above mentioned prices.

Another problem with a server box is that it's against the market, it's
pretty clear that streaming online music gets more and more popular and
buying CD's gets less popular, especially among younger people.

Full SBS is clearly a low priority at the moment, I'm personally a bit
afraid that 7.6 is going to be the last major release of full SBS which
we will see, but hopefully I'm wrong about this. Logitech will probably
put focus on mysqueezebox.com and streaming services if they choose to
continue develop the Squeezebox products. Which isn't bad because
streaming online music is the future, it's just a matter of time until
the music industry wakes up and realize that this is how they need to
start selling music.
--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland). If my answer
helped you and you like to encourage future presence on this forum
and/or third party plugin/applet development, 'donations are always
appreciated' (http://erland.isaksson.info/donate))
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[Phil Meyer]

Post by erland
Which isn't bad because
streaming online music is the future, it's just a matter of time until
the music industry wakes up and realize that this is how they need to
start selling music.

It's not my future.

There's no way I'll ever pay for music that I don't physically own. I don't want to stream music across the internet. I want high-quality reliable music that I own and can play anywhere (take it in a car, put on portable media player, take on holiday, etc). On-line music streaming is great for new music discovery.

[JackOfAll]

Post by Phil Meyer
There's no way I'll ever pay for music that I don't physically own. I
don't want to stream music across the internet. I want high-quality
reliable music that I own and can play anywhere (take it in a car, put
on portable media player, take on holiday, etc). On-line music
streaming is great for new music discovery.

I think you'd be surprised at how many people feel that way. In the
minority we may be, but it's not a small minority.

[Phil Leigh]

Post by JackOfAll
I think you'd be surprised at how many people feel that way. In the
minority we may be, but it's not a small minority.

Agreed - I'm in!

It's also a large minority with very deep wallets.
--
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect
cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.
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[erland]

Post by Phil Meyer

Post by erland
Which isn't bad because
streaming online music is the future, it's just a matter of time

until

Post by erland
the music industry wakes up and realize that this is how they need to
start selling music.

It's not my future.
There's no way I'll ever pay for music that I don't physically own. I
don't want to stream music across the internet. I want high-quality
reliable music that I own and can play anywhere (take it in a car, put
on portable media player, take on holiday, etc). On-line music
streaming is great for new music discovery.

I understand the issues at the moment because all music isn't available
from streaming services and the audio quality isn't good enough and the
network might not always be 100% reliable, but let's imagine that those
problems were solved and you were also able to listen on your streaming
service subscription anywhere. With anywhere, I mean that it will be
available both in home (Squeezebox, computer) and in car stereo and
portable devices. On portable devices, let's say you are able to
download it locally on the portable devices at home so you can use it
even without a network connection later on when you leave the house.

Let's also say that the monthly cost would be lower than what you spend
on music today every month, the difference is that you have access to
all music instead of just the albums you can afford to buy today.

I guess what I'm asking is if the issue is mainly about the quality and
limitations on which devices you can play it, or if the main issue
really is about paying a monthly subscription.

Since I got my Spotify account which I can use at home on my Squeezebox
and when I'm not at home on my iPhone (also works in the car), I can
honestly say that the only reason to buy CD's is the audio quality and
the fact that all music isn't available on Spotify. For the stuff you
really like, you still want the CD to get good audio quality, but it's
just a matter of time until that changes.
--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland). If my answer
helped you and you like to encourage future presence on this forum
and/or third party plugin/applet development, 'donations are always
appreciated' (http://erland.isaksson.info/donate))
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[Mnyb]

Post by erland
I understand the issues at the moment because all music isn't available
from streaming services and the audio quality isn't good enough and the
network might not always be 100% reliable, but let's imagine that those
problems were solved and you were also able to listen on your streaming
service subscription anywhere. With anywhere, I mean that it will be
available both in home (Squeezebox, computer) and in car stereo and
portable devices. On portable devices, let's say you are able to
download it locally on the portable devices at home so you can use it
even without a network connection later on when you leave the house.
Let's also say that the monthly cost would be lower than what you spend
on music today every month, the difference is that you have access to
all music instead of just the albums you can afford to buy today.
I guess what I'm asking is if the issue is mainly about the quality and
limitations on which devices you can play it, or if the main issue
really is about paying a monthly subscription.
Since I got my Spotify account which I can use at home on my Squeezebox
and when I'm not at home on my iPhone (also works in the car), I can
honestly say that the only reason to buy CD's is the audio quality and
the fact that all music isn't available on Spotify. For the stuff you
really like, you still want the CD to get good audio quality, but it's
just a matter of time until that changes.

There is another factor a streaming service can choose to make some
music unavailable if it's to unpopular why waste resources on that ?
I figure a streaming service can never have everything really, and you
still not in control really.

I want all my music in an open source lossles format, for backup and
data migration reasons. Yes I expect my files to be "forever" inherited
by friends and family in the future. I can imagine that someone still
playing one of my CD rips in 100 years from now :)

Online streaming can be a "digital darkness trap" for our culture, some
things would just dissapear without a trace ? And our culture would be
in the hands of Apple and Spotify ? or similar.
I think data mining old files would be a real academic profession/hobby
in the future, just as we right now are studying old books and tape's
for our history.

With 10000 local copies of Flac album it is like to survive in to the
future :) I'm just not fond off disposable culture yes I probably have
to and will pay more for the privilege doing so.

Streaming is great shortcut for a young person without money thou, you
can actually enjoy a lot of music.

But however it goes the streaming service will be in control over what
library you can have, that is for me unacceptable .
Democracy is not forever either we may have more censorship in the
future and also market driven self censoring a strong factor in content
providing (example parental advice sticker's on CD's can someone put
people that invent such stuff on fire please). There is always a lot of
"moral panic people" around trying tell others what music is good art or
not.

Just afraid that the streaming future will be some kind of sanitized
Disney reality with no rough edges.
--
Mnyb

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH and
assorted amps SiriuS, Classe' Primare and Dynadio speakers, Contour 4
Contour Center, and Contour 1.3SE rear ch. Rel Stadium 3 sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)

PLEASE FIX BUG 112
http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=112
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[Phil Meyer]

Post by erland
I understand the issues at the moment because all music isn't available
from streaming services and the audio quality isn't good enough and the
network might not always be 100% reliable, but let's imagine that those
problems were solved and you were also able to listen on your streaming
service subscription anywhere.

It will never be everywhere. Streaming services will never have all music. You will never be in control over it.

There's always a concern that something will happen to the service, and you'll have no capability to play it.
Then there's broadband internet costs - some people are effectively paying for the music every time it is streamed.

It will never be available everywhere. You can't take a copy of the music to put on a portable music player. Maybe you can stream to a portable player, but that won't be available in all locations either. It will be expensive, and lower quality. Battery drain on the device is higher, so won't be able to play as long.

Licencing issues too - some music may only allow to be streamed to certain countries, and I've seen some music initially available, only to be removed from the streaming service.

I see almost no benefits, other than a good source for discovering/trying out music before purchase.

I doubt that any music streaming service will ever stream a lossless format - it will always be compressed (but maybe high enough quality that some people won't notice).

In terms of music library management, you can't organise the music as you would like. You can't find your music as easily, make dynamic playlists, rate songs, etc. You have limited ways to browse the library. You can't add additional tags, change genres, split albums into original content + bonus track albums to organise how you want.

I you stop paying a subscription, you lose access all music.

[MrSinatra]

Post by erland
I'm skeptical about a server box because to get good performance it's
going to make the complete solution too expensive. Very few people
besides the enthusiasts are going to buy a $300 server box if they also
need an additional $200-$300 player to be able to play the music. A
combo box for $500 is also going to be too expensive. Simpler UPnP
solutions from competitors are going to look more attractive to the
mass market at those prices. Mass market don't care about sound quality
and advanced features, which is the main advantage SBS/Squeezebox has
over simpler UPnP based products. If you think I'm wrong about this,
mention one other product with similar features as SBS which don't need
a computer and is cheaper than the above mentioned prices.
Another problem with a server box is that it's against the market, it's
pretty clear that streaming online music gets more and more popular and
buying CD's gets less popular, especially among younger people.
Full SBS is clearly a low priority at the moment, I'm personally a bit
afraid that 7.6 is going to be the last major release of full SBS which
we will see, but hopefully I'm wrong about this. Logitech will probably
put focus on mysqueezebox.com and streaming services if they choose to
continue develop the Squeezebox products. Which isn't bad because
streaming online music is the future, it's just a matter of time until
the music industry wakes up and realize that this is how they need to
start selling music.

you make a lot of good points, but i actually wasn't suggesting a
server box was forthcoming, i was saying that a SBS you can download
might only stop seeing development IF logitech went to a server only
box.

however, i do think that logitech server boxes COULD make sense
depending on what exactly its role was. afterall, the touch is a
server. now the touch doesn't make sense to me, but i do think you
could envision different server boxes for differing uses.

i'd like to see a "google tv box 2" and here's what i would pay ~$300
for:

cable card support, video recording
SBS built in (its ok if its stripped down a bit, not every bell and
whistle
allow usb attachable storage, network storage
dlna support

it may not be feasible today, but it surely is soon. that would be a
nice server box. i can also imagine a much smaller audio only one,
that could handle syncing and optionally have a player (combo box), no
display tho. i'd pay ~$125/$165 for that.
--
MrSinatra

www.lion-radio.org
using:
sb2 & sbc (my home) / sbrec & ipeng (parents' home) - sbs 7.5.3b - win
xp pro sp3 ie8 - p4(ht) 3.2ghz, 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid1 - d-link
dir-655 - 45k+ mp3
::VOTE FOR 'BUG 15604'
(http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15604)!!!::
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[Phil Meyer]

Post by Mnyb
I'd say almost all of them.

I've used several products (including, but not limited to: MSE, AVG Free, Comodo Firewall, Comodo AntiVirus), and only had a problem with MSE, which I quickly found and fixed by setting an exception (I think I needed a reboot too, for the exception to work).

I'm sure there's other apps on the market that also use MySQL. Did those suffer the same problem? i.e. was it the way that SBS was locking the file, or was it a generic issue?

Post by Mnyb
Many "normal" user falls on the first hurdle actually realising that
you have to setup the AV software.

Many "normal" users don't bother to install AV software. Maybe they get a 1 year licence with pre-installed software on a new PC; but in my experience of helping out family and friends, they don't generally bother to renew/install other packages.

People "in the know" do; but then they are a bit more likely to know a thing or two when issues occur.

[Phil Meyer]

Post by erland
In my opinion, Logitech should really just say that only SQLite will be
supported in 7.6, it's pretty obvious that only SQLite is going to work
if they don't prioritize MySQL bugs. So in a scenario like this, why
even give users a choice ?

In my opinion, MySQL is much nicer, especially for development (better tools, can probe content whilst SBS is using the DB, better for optimising). It's much more likely to be suitable for larger libraries.

There really shouldn't be much involved for Logitech to provide both (after all, MySQL was working, SQLite should be additional), but agree that helpdesk support perhaps only support one. i.e. allow power users can continue to use MySQL, but by default use SQLite.

Post by erland
Not sure SQLite is faster, besides the scanner, 7.6 is faster than 7.5
but that's also related to other changes, especially related to the
scanning process.

SBS shouldn't be heavy on DB access. I think performance problems are due to iffy SQL, or not DB issues (eg. file access, reading tags, etc).

Post by erland
I assume Logitech is resonably convinced that SQLite will work good
enough in the largest library they like to support, so this means that
the first point isn't an issue.

I don't see much evidence of comparitive testing.

I think the main reason is due to Tiny SBS for Touch. SQLite was made for that environment, and thus reversed engineered into full SBS. If it wasn't for that, there would have been little reasons to switch database engine (again).

To me, Tiny SBS = reduced functionality = use SQLite.
Full SBS = MySQL.

Post by erland
To me this means that there is really
no reason for them to support MySQL at all, it just takes up valuable
development time that could be used to correct other bugs.

To me, the development time has already been spent - MySQL integrated and working well/reliably in 7.5.x. SQLite is what has/is taking valuable development time, and not working well yet (with my experience of 7.6). There should be little to do with supporting MySQL, as it is already supported.

When 7.6 is released, does that mean that helpdesk support will not answer support questions for 7.5.x and tell users they have to upgrade?

Post by erland
My suggestion the the community is just to accept SQLite, it's here to
stay and it's a lot better than it was a few years back.

If there were some comparitive results, showing usage with a big library, such as timing stats and memory usage, and 7.6 was working reliably enough to check that there were no other issues, such as character encoding issues, then it would be easier to accept.

For me, MySQL is working well in 7.5, and there is no reason for me to need SQLite, which seems to be working less well.

Post by erland
Let's focus on the music related stuff which really matters instead of
technical issues like this which don't have any impact on our music
listening experience.

I'd actually prefer if Logitech focusses on making a stable platform, providing an extensible framework. I really don't think we'll ever see drastic changes in music browsing capabilities, and never with the same level of features that come from third-party plugins. Providing better development support to make creation of plugins easier is more likely to provide better power user facilities.

Changing database engine should be easy with this app. There's hardly any difference in SQL queries, just how the DB is created and generally accessed.

[erland]

Post by Phil Meyer

Post by erland
Let's focus on the music related stuff which really matters instead

of

Post by erland
technical issues like this which don't have any impact on our music
listening experience.

I'd actually prefer if Logitech focusses on making a stable platform,
providing an extensible framework. I really don't think we'll ever see
drastic changes in music browsing capabilities, and never with the same
level of features that come from third-party plugins. Providing better
development support to make creation of plugins easier is more likely to
provide better power user facilities.

I can't disagree with you regarding this but things that are related to
third party plugins almost always gets low priority already today.

I would love if Logitech focused on making a stable core and made it
easy to enhance it with third party plugins. To make it easy to enhance
it with third party plugins, it's important to also take the QA time of
the third party developer into account. It will be easier for the third
party developers if they only have to verify their plugins with one
configuration.

Post by Phil Meyer
Changing database engine should be easy with this app. There's hardly
any difference in SQL queries, just how the DB is created and generally
accessed.

As you say, the SQL isn't a big problem, even with my plugins which
heavily depends on native SQL most things work with both databases.

I might be wrong but I believe the main difference is not in the SQL,
the main difference is related to in-process database or a database
that runs as separate process.

Logitech has taken advantage of the in-process paradigm of SQLite to
get a more effective system and this makes it more complicated to also
support MySQL.

The big problem is the time it takes to do QA on two databases. This
effectively duplicates the testing time on some parts of the system. If
Logitech only do QA on one of the databases the other one isn't going to
work reliably. This is also pretty much what Andy's statement mean, it's
just that most people doesn't seem to understand it. To make MySQL
unusable, it's enough if Logitech decides to not prioritize one
important MySQL bug. To me it's obvious that it's going to be bugs left
if Logitech doesn't think MySQL is a priority.
--
erland

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland). If my answer
helped you and you like to encourage future presence on this forum
and/or third party plugin/applet development, 'donations are always
appreciated' (http://erland.isaksson.info/donate))
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[Phil Meyer]

Post by erland
I might be wrong but I believe the main difference is not in the SQL,
the main difference is related to in-process database or a database
that runs as separate process.

Yes, and that's where I think that MySQL was already supported and working well, so for 7.6 it should be a matter of adding additional support for SQLite. Once done, there shouldn't be much to go wrong/change over time, as either platform should use a generic "how does app talk to database" solution.

Post by erland
Logitech has taken advantage of the in-process paradigm of SQLite to
get a more effective system and this makes it more complicated to also
support MySQL.

Whether it's more effective is still open to debate, I think.
It shouldn't be more complicated - just a different implementation of a generic interface.

Post by erland
The big problem is the time it takes to do QA on two databases. This
effectively duplicates the testing time on some parts of the system. If
Logitech only do QA on one of the databases the other one isn't going to
work reliably.

Should be setting up automated tests, and/or using targetted regression tests.
If the generic interface works for some tests, the engine used for the back-end shouldn't matter.

[Phil Meyer]

my understanding is that sqlite will be faster, the default,

That is unconfirmed. In my experience, MySQL in 7.5.3 is at least as fast as SQLite in 7.6.

Remember, the built-in instance of MySQL in 7.5.x has not been optimised - running a separate MySQL instance with optimised settings can vastly improve 7.5.x performance.
I think 7.6 has made other general optimisations, and no-one has a working MySQL in 7.6 to make a comparison.

won't need an external separate process,

That is neither a pro or con. I have MySQL running as a separate process (not controlled by SBS), as it then doesn't need to be stopped/restarted when SBS is restarted, so startup performance is faster.

and will eliminate AV and win defender type issues

That appears to be true. I've not had much trouble myself, and not a problem that SBS/Logitech need to fix - users need to configure their AV/firewall packages to work properly. They should be unobtrusive.

There's no reason why a user couldn't experience similar issues with SQLite - after all the DB engine still writes data to a file, and an AV/firewall suite could complain about that. i.e. I think SQLite has an option to run locked/not locked; if it is locked, an AV scanner may not be able to read the content and complain.

Phil