LoooOOOOOOOoooooot!!!!!!! [ YACD; was: Oh No!!!! ]

Post by pete mack
Avavir. As it also gives +3 Dex and will soon give 3 blows, it's the
obvious choice.
Note: Timo's suggestion that Avavir is too deep and/or heavy to be
useful is thus proven wrong.

You get only 3 blows? Then it is too heavy.

It's very surprising you haven't found any useful and lighter
westernesse by now. Good westernesse would provide 4 blows and beat
Avavir any day. 5 if you get your DEX a bit higher.

Timo Pietilä

pete mack

2005-06-04 23:49:08 UTC

You get only 3 blows? Then it is too heavy.
It's very surprising you haven't found any useful and lighter
westernesse by now. Good westernesse would provide 4 blows and beat
Avavir any day. 5 if you get your DEX a bit higher.
Timo Pietilä

Timo, you don't do damage calculation correctly. 4 blows with a light
weapon is not that much better than 3 with a very heavy one.

Here are some sample damage calculations for lev 33 guy, doing
non-weapon damage of 30 per round. Weight bonuses are included in
calculations. (This is not where I am, but where I hope to be.)

With DEX 18/110, STR 200 - 5 blows with Avavir.
With DEX 18/120, STR 130 - 5 blows with Avavir. (Dwarf paladin with max
DEX, no equipment bonuses, except Avavir.)

Comparing 5 blows with Avavir; 7 with Haradekket; 5 with Calris at 30
damage from non-weapon damage bonuses:

365 damage/round from Avavir (Frost/Fire)
376 damage/round from Haradekket (slay evil/animal)
381 damage/round from Calris (slay evil)
576 damage/round from Calris (Dragon)

At 20 damage non-weapon

308 Avavir at +9 damage enchantment (easy to get there.)
308 Haradekket
331 Calris (Slay Evil)

Pretty comparable weapons, for most purposes. Avavir has more holes.
But there's no guarantee of seeing Haradekket. It's only 1/2 as common
as Avavir.

Anyway, I was damned pleased to see any kind of decent weapon,
*especially* one with big dexterity bonus and free action. It exactly
fit into the game strategy of diving to alleviate problem of lousy
equipment and low dexterity.

Anyway, I have no choice: Avavir or nothing. I need the free action.
And with Recall, I can carry an extra swap item. (Like Ring of RPois,
or Calris...)

pete mack

2005-06-05 01:18:27 UTC

Whoops, error in previous calcs. I was using the difference rather

Post by pete mack
Comparing 5 blows with Avavir; 7 with Haradekket; 5 with Calris at 30
365 damage/round from Avavir (Frost/Fire)

Should read 369 [30 + 4.8 + 9 + 30 ] *5

Post by pete mack
At 20 damage non-weapon
308 Avavir at +9 damage enchantment (easy to get there.)

Should be 319 [30 + 4.8 + 9 +20 ] *5

I was comparing it with Mundwine and realized my mistake. Mundwine
does 98% of the damage of Avavir, but has far fewer holes. (With Slay
Demon, it's arguably better than Haradekket.) But it'll have to wait
until I get the DEX from somewhere else.

Anyway, here's what I ended up with on the way out of the vault. Left
the
2 Paur* 2 *Thanc, Osondir and 2 GDSM lying on the floor.

With Thalkettoth & Avavir I get 3 blows already, and 4 soon. No need
for aggravation. Banishment can wait. Now it's time to slaughter blue
dragons with Taratol.

[Angband 3.0.6 alpha 2 Character Dump]

Name Quixote_Jr Self RB CB EB Best
Sex Male Age 40 STR: 18/88 +2 +3 +0 18/138
Race Dwarf Height 47 INT: 18 -3 -3 +0 12
Class Paladin Weight 167 Wis: 18/28 +2 +1 +7 18/128
18/116
Title Guardian Status 63 DEX: 18/26 -2 +0 +6 18/66
HP 478/478 Maximize Y CON: 18/34 +2 +2 +3 18/104
SP 142/149 Preserve Y CHR: 17 -3 +2 +6 18/40

Level 33 Armor [28,+74] Saving Throw Superb
Cur Exp 397831 Fight (+11,+24) Stealth Fair
Max Exp 413372 Melee (+19,+32) Fighting Legendary
Adv Exp 426250 Shoot (+25,+19) Shooting Heroic
MaxDepth 2450 ft Blows 3/turn Disarming Very Good
Turns 1961236 Shots 2/turn Magic Device Superb
Gold 123758 Infra 50 ft Perception Poor
Burden 302.8 lbs Speed Normal Searching Fair

You are the only child of a Dwarven Warrior. You are a credit to the
family. You have dark brown eyes, straight black hair, a three foot
beard, and a dark complexion.

abcdefghijkl@ abcdefghijkl@
Acid:+.....+...... Blind:............+
Elec:+............ Confu:.........+...
Fire:+............ Sound:.............
Cold:+............ Shard:......+......
Pois:............. Nexus:.............
Fear:............. Nethr:.............
Lite:+............ Chaos:.............
Dark:............. Disen:.......+.....

abcdefghijkl@ abcdefghijkl@
S.Dig:............. Stea.:.......+.....
Feath:............. Sear.:.............
PLite:+............ Infra:.............
Regen:............. Tunn.:.............
Telep:............. Speed:......3....2.
Invis:+............ Blows:.............
FrAct:+............ Shots:.+...........
HLife:............. Might:.............

[Character Equipment]

a) The Scythe 'Avavir' (5d3) (+8,+8) [+10] (+3)
{FA,Fire,Cold,Lite,SI,Recall}
It increases your dexterity and charisma by 3. It cannot be harmed
by
the elements. It might have hidden powers.
b) a Light Crossbow of Extra Shots (x3) (+14,+19) (+1)
It increases your shooting speed by 1.
c) a Moonstone Ring of Damage (+11) {+11}
d) a Mithril Ring of Constitution (+3)
It increases your constitution by 3. It sustains your constitution.

e) a Golden Amulet of Wisdom (+4)
It increases your wisdom by 4. It sustains your wisdom.
f) The Star of Elendil {!d!v, Lokkak 2300'}
It lights the dungeon around you. It cannot be harmed by the
elements.
It might have hidden powers.
g) The Leather Scale Mail 'Thalkettoth' (-1) [11,+25] (+3) {Shrd,Acid}
It increases your dexterity by 3. It increases your speed by 3. It
cannot be harmed by the elements. It might have hidden powers.
h) a Cloak of Aman [1,+11] (+3 to stealth) {Floor, 2000'}
It increases your stealth by 3. It provides resistance to
disenchantment. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
i) The Large Metal Shield of Anarion [5,+20] {RBase,SustainAll}
It cannot be harmed by the elements. It might have hidden powers.
j) The Metal Cap of Thengel [3,+12] (+3) {RConf}
It increases your wisdom and charisma by 3. It cannot be harmed by
the
elements. It might have hidden powers.
k) a Set of Gauntlets of Slaying (+0,+4) [2,-1] {!d!v}
l) a Pair of Metal Shod Boots of Speed [6,-6] (+2) {!d!v}
It increases your speed by 2.

[Character Inventory]

a) 4 Holy Books of Prayers [Ethereal Openings] {!d!v}
It cannot be harmed by the elements.
b) 3 Holy Books of Prayers [Godly Insights] {!d!v}
It cannot be harmed by the elements.
c) 6 Holy Books of Prayers [Purifications and Healing]
It cannot be harmed by the elements.
d) 8 Metallic Purple Potions of Speed
e) a Clotted Red Potion of Healing {!*}
f) a Silver-Plated Rod of Detection {!*,!!}
It cannot be harmed by electricity.
g) a Mithril-Plated Rod of Teleport Other {!d!v!k!!,!*}
h) 6 Tin-Plated Rods of Light {!!}
i) 5 Cast Iron Rods of Fire Bolts
j) 3 Aluminium Wands of Teleport Other (6 charges) {!*}
k) an Opal Ring of Resist Poison
It provides resistance to poison.
l) Chain Mail (Dwarven) (-2) [14,+17] (+2)
It increases your strength and constitution by 2. It increases your

infravision by 2. It grants you immunity to paralysis. It cannot
be
harmed by acid or fire.
m) The Full Plate Armour of Isildur [25,+25] (+1)
{Rbase,RSound,RConf,RNexu}
It increases your constitution by 1. It cannot be harmed by the
elements. It might have hidden powers.
n) The Mithril Plate Mail of Celeborn (-3) [35,+25] (+4)
{RBase,RDise,Banishme}
It increases your strength and charisma by 4. It cannot be harmed
by
the elements. It might have hidden powers.
o) Hard Studded Leather of Elvenkind (-1) [7,+20] (+3 to stealth)
It increases your stealth by 3. It provides resistance to acid,
lightning, fire, and cold. It cannot be harmed by the elements. It
might have hidden powers.
p) The Cloak 'Colannon' [1,+15] (+3) {Nexus}
It increases your stealth and speed by 3. It cannot be harmed by
the
elements. It might have hidden powers.
q) a Jewel Encrusted Crown of Lordliness [0,+16] (+3)
It increases your wisdom and charisma by 3. It provides resistance
to
fear. It sustains your wisdom and charisma. It cannot be harmed by
the elements. It might have hidden powers.
r) The Steel Helm of Hammerhand [6,+20] (+3)
{RAcid,RCold,RNexus,RDark,AGGR,SD}
It increases your strength, dexterity, and constitution by 3. It
cannot be harmed by the elements. It might have hidden powers.
s) The Bastard Sword 'Calris' (5d4) (-20,+20) (+5) {!*!*!*, cursed}
It increases your constitution by 5. It is cursed. It cannot be
harmed by the elements. It might have hidden powers.
t) The Lochaber Axe 'Mundwine' (3d8) (+12,+17)
{RBase,Slay:Evil,Animal,Demon}
It cannot be harmed by the elements. It might have hidden powers.
u) The Mace 'Taratol' (3d4) (+12,+12) {IM_Elec,BrElec,Sl*Drg,Haste}
It cannot be harmed by the elements. It might have hidden powers.
v) 23 Bolts of Slay Giant (1d5) (+12,+14)
It slays giants.
w) 13 Bolts of Slay Dragon (1d5) (+7,+7)
It slays dragons.

bluetrolls

2005-06-05 08:27:03 UTC

Post by pete mack
Note: Timo's suggestion that Avavir is too deep and/or heavy to be
useful is thus proven wrong.
Comparing 5 blows with Avavir; 7 with Haradekket; 5 with Calris at 30

Off topic. Is there any particular reason why heavy weapons get a cap at 5 blows
instead of 6? That makes Avavir insta-junk, for instance. It gets a bit
frustrating for warriors, whose big (and only) advantage should be that extra
blow.

Timo Pietilä

2005-06-05 11:05:21 UTC

Post by pete mack
Note: Timo's suggestion that Avavir is too deep and/or heavy to be
useful is thus proven wrong.
Comparing 5 blows with Avavir; 7 with Haradekket; 5 with Calris at 30

Only warriors get 6 blows. And it has been discussed before that maybe
warriors should get extra blow at some point of game and not just
different calculation.

bluetrolls

2005-06-05 14:59:45 UTC

On 2005-06-05 13:05:21, =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Timo_Pietilä?=

Post by Timo PietilÃ¤
Only warriors get 6 blows. And it has been discussed before that maybe
warriors should get extra blow at some point of game and not just
different calculation.

They get 6 blows on select weapons that do not surpass a certain weight. Avavir
is over that weight and warriors get only 5 blows with it no matter how high
str and/or dex. That is the way the no. blows algorithm + tables + caps are
designed. A warrior wearing The Massive Iron Crown of Morgoth will still be
limited to 5 blows.

One easy fix: eliminate (or raise) the cap on ASB, which stops increasing at
18/220.

Timo Pietilä

2005-06-05 18:07:04 UTC

Post by bluetrolls
On 2005-06-05 13:05:21, =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Timo_Pietilä?=

Post by Timo PietilÃ¤
Only warriors get 6 blows. And it has been discussed before that maybe
warriors should get extra blow at some point of game and not just
different calculation.

They get 6 blows on select weapons that do not surpass a certain weight. Avavir

Exactly.

Post by bluetrolls
One easy fix: eliminate (or raise) the cap on ASB, which stops increasing at
18/220.

Better fix: Give warrior extra blow at start of the game, cap at five
blows and calculate like ranger. That way warrior would value heavier
weapons than any other class. Two blows with flail vs. four with dagger.

Timo Pietilä

bluetrolls

2005-06-05 18:29:17 UTC

On 2005-06-05 20:07:04, =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Timo_Pietilä?=

Post by Timo PietilÃ¤
Better fix: Give warrior extra blow at start of the game, cap at five
blows and calculate like ranger. That way warrior would value heavier
weapons than any other class. Two blows with flail vs. four with dagger.

That would be very nice. And perhaps slightly overpowerd. You tempt me to start
hacking :-)

pete mack

2005-06-05 20:39:44 UTC

Post by bluetrolls
On 2005-06-05 20:07:04, =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Timo_Pietilä?=

That would be very nice. And perhaps slightly overpowerd. You tempt me to start
hacking :-)

NPP already works that way. Warrior gets extra blow when Ranger and
Thief get extra shot, and spell-casters get bigger radius of ball
weapon.

This would be bad in Vanilla. NPP has more powerful monsters, so needs
bigger damage. (Hence, everyone can use Branded ammo all the time.
And warrior gets 6 blows with much heavier weapons.)

Timo Pietilä

2005-06-05 21:17:43 UTC

Post by bluetrolls
On 2005-06-05 20:07:04, =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Timo_Pietilä?=

This would be bad in Vanilla.

Bad in which way? It doesn't change much at start because blows
calculation is also changed. We can change it even more: how about like
rogue? Or even like mage?

Practically it just gives warriors max blows with very heavy weapons
too. That makes warriors value big weapons instead of light ones.

Timo Pietilä

pete mack

2005-06-05 21:37:41 UTC

Post by bluetrolls
On 2005-06-05 20:07:04, =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Timo_Pietilä?=

This would be bad in Vanilla.

Bad in which way? It doesn't change much at start because blows
calculation is also changed. We can change it even more: how about like
rogue? Or even like mage?
Practically it just gives warriors max blows with very heavy weapons
too. That makes warriors value big weapons instead of light ones.

Well yes of course. But many of the heavy weapons already do
incredible amounts of damage at 5 blows. Upping them to 6 blows would
unbalance the game.

Timo Pietilä

2005-06-05 21:57:10 UTC

Post by pete mack
This would be bad in Vanilla.

Practically it just gives warriors max blows with very heavy weapons
too. That makes warriors value big weapons instead of light ones.

Well yes of course. But many of the heavy weapons already do
incredible amounts of damage at 5 blows. Upping them to 6 blows would
unbalance the game.

Heaviest weapon in game (barring Grond) is Mace of Disruption. Getting
six instead of five with 3*brand/slay would be:

(5d8 * 3 + 40) * 5 = 537.5

Six:

(5d8 * 3 + 40) * 6 = 647.

Similar Blade of Chaos is _now_:

(6d5 * 3 + 40) * 6 = 564.

That's not so big increase. Criticals of course add to this quite a bit,
but still far for being unbalancing.

Ranger with brand ammo spell is much much worse and I don't read too
many complains about that in here.

Timo Pietilä

Atriel

2005-06-05 19:24:02 UTC

Ive wrote exactly that a while ago...
but the crappy 1-attack starting is bad and lame
for EVERY class and makes HUGE power breakpoints
from 1 to 2 attacks.
IMHO, the best solution is already in O. here, there is a minimum
blow cap for everyone, thats 2 attacks. And certain classes
(rogue....) get penalties (that get smaller w/ clvl) wearing
heavy weapons.
And then, just give the warrior an extra blow at clvl 25 (like NPP)
so that any warrior that reaches clvl 25 will have a minimum
of 3 blows with any weapon.... hmm maybe a bit later if the
starting minimum blow cap is applied (clvl 35?).

--
I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
How much difference does it make?

bluetrolls

2005-06-06 05:44:37 UTC

On 2005-06-05 20:07:04, =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Timo_Pietilä?=

Another off topic idea: what if weapons get a to-hit bonus proportional with
their weight? Then a heavy 'max' 5 blows would potentially make more 'avg'
damage than a light 'max' 6 blows. Of course, that would make damage
computations much more complicated :-)

Timo Pietilä

2005-06-06 08:01:25 UTC

Post by bluetrolls
On 2005-06-05 20:07:04, =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Timo_Pietilä?=

To_dam proportional to weight is realistic, but to_hit? I bet it is much
easier to hit with long light weapon than heavy bulky one.

Timo Pietilä

bluetrolls

2005-06-06 08:27:34 UTC

On 2005-06-06 10:01:25, =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Timo_Pietilä?=

Post by Timo PietilÃ¤
To_dam proportional to weight is realistic, but to_hit? I bet it is much
easier to hit with long light weapon than heavy bulky one.

You mean that is more realistical to penetrate a tough hide/armour with a
dagger, rather than with a big bad blade of chaos? After all, the to-hit bonus
primarily measures the chance to penetrate enemy armour.

Timo Pietilä

2005-06-06 09:58:11 UTC

Post by bluetrolls
On 2005-06-06 10:01:25, =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Timo_Pietilä?=

Post by Timo PietilÃ¤
To_dam proportional to weight is realistic, but to_hit? I bet it is much
easier to hit with long light weapon than heavy bulky one.

And hitting enemy that is adapt in avoiding being hit. Armor is not only
thing giving AC. It is easier to get hit with dagger if opponent is too
fast to get hit by swing of heavy blade. Of course dagger is not the
fastest weapon in game, so that is bad example.

Timo Pietilä

pete mack

2005-06-06 15:26:26 UTC

Post by bluetrolls
On 2005-06-06 10:01:25, =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Timo_Pietilä?=

Post by Timo PietilÃ¤
To_dam proportional to weight is realistic, but to_hit? I bet it is much
easier to hit with long light weapon than heavy bulky one.

To hit makes sense to me. To hit means you are more accurate. It
means that you are more likely to hit some vital bit than just
inflicting a flesh wound.

And yes, it is easier to hit with long light weapon than heavy bulky
one. That's why the light one gets 6 blows....

Timo Pietilä

2005-06-05 11:35:48 UTC

Post by pete mack
Note: Timo's suggestion that Avavir is too deep and/or heavy to be
useful is thus proven wrong.

You get only 3 blows? Then it is too heavy.
It's very surprising you haven't found any useful and lighter
westernesse by now. Good westernesse would provide 4 blows and beat
Avavir any day. 5 if you get your DEX a bit higher.

Timo, you don't do damage calculation correctly. 4 blows with a light
weapon is not that much better than 3 with a very heavy one.

It usually is.

Just comparision from your CD:

Max Exp 413372 Melee (+20,+36) Fighting Legendary

u) a Trident of Extra Attacks (1d8) (+9,+9) (+2) {Mim, 1950'}
It increases your attack speed by 2.

a) The Scythe 'Avavir' (5d3) (+8,+8) [+10] (+3)

c) a Moonstone Ring of Damage (+11) {+11}
d) a Mithril Ring of Constitution (+3)
It increases your constitution by 3. It sustains your constitution.

Change that RoDam to RoFA for Extra Attacks:

Trident: 5 blows
Avavir 2 blows

Avavir:
(5d3*3 + 36) * 2 = 132
3 blows:
(5d3*3 + 36) * 3 = 198

Trident:
(1d8 + 26) * 5 = 152.5
With 6 blows (should be at the same time Avavir reaches 3 blows)
(1d8 + 26) * 6 = 183
With RoDam there is no competition.

Maxed stats (+20 non-weapon bonus):
Avavir 5 blows:
(5d3*3 + 29) * 5 = 295
Trident:
(1d8 + 29) * 7 = 234.5
Haradekket:
(2d5*2 + 31) * 7 = 301

Post by pete mack
Here are some sample damage calculations for lev 33 guy, doing
non-weapon damage of 30 per round. Weight bonuses are included in
calculations. (This is not where I am, but where I hope to be.)

Weight bonus affects only type of criticals. How did you calculate that?

Timo Pietilä

pete mack

2005-06-05 21:25:04 UTC

I don't really understand why people think the warrior needs 6 blows
with heavy weapons. Warrior has a choice: use a mid-weight weapon, get
6 blows, and load up on equipment damage bonus. Or play like a paladin
and accept 5 blows with a heavy weapon, and possibly free up the ring
slot for something more interesting.

Maybe you can raise the weight at which 6 blows is possible. But just
adding another blow would probably unbalance Vanilla. See below.

Post by pete mack
Note: Timo's suggestion that Avavir is too deep and/or heavy to be
useful is thus proven wrong.

You get only 3 blows? Then it is too heavy.
It's very surprising you haven't found any useful and lighter
westernesse by now. Good westernesse would provide 4 blows and beat
Avavir any day. 5 if you get your DEX a bit higher.

Timo, you don't do damage calculation correctly. 4 blows with a light
weapon is not that much better than 3 with a very heavy one.

It usually is.
Max Exp 413372 Melee (+20,+36) Fighting Legendary
u) a Trident of Extra Attacks (1d8) (+9,+9) (+2) {Mim, 1950'}
It increases your attack speed by 2.
a) The Scythe 'Avavir' (5d3) (+8,+8) [+10] (+3)
c) a Moonstone Ring of Damage (+11) {+11}
d) a Mithril Ring of Constitution (+3)
It increases your constitution by 3. It sustains your constitution.
Trident: 5 blows
Avavir 2 blows

I went home to get another RoCON. And with Thalkettoth, I got 3 blows
immediately with Avavir.

Post by Timo PietilÃ¤
(5d3*3 + 36) * 2 = 132
(5d3*3 + 36) * 3 = 198
(1d8 + 26) * 5 = 152.5
With 6 blows (should be at the same time Avavir reaches 3 blows.)

No. Avavir is +3 DEX, which matters a lot during stat gain.

Post by Timo PietilÃ¤
(1d8 + 26) * 6 = 183
With RoDam there is no competition.

Avavir has FA. I *could not use* RoDam with Trident. Ring of FA was
really holding me back. And with heavy weapons, you can afford to lose
the damage ring. They are not as sensitive to equipment bonuses.
Anyway, I wrote the silly story for a reason: with the equipment I had,
I had little choice but to play pure thief style with defender, and go
for broke. Life at 2000' was really sucking. I needed a Greater
Vault, and the deeper the better.

Post by Timo PietilÃ¤
(5d3*3 + 29) * 5 = 295
(1d8 + 29) * 7 = 234.5
(2d5*2 + 31) * 7 = 301
Weight bonus affects only type of criticals. How did you calculate that?

Not quite:

Weight bonus affect the type of critical, and the probability of a
critical. And dice+multiplier are what gets put in the critical.

So a low-weight, low-dice weapon like Haradekket gets low critical
damage bonus. On average, just under 2 points per blow at clev 40.

For Haradakket:

Probabilty of critical hit
pcrit = (130+43*5+40*3)/5000 = 9.3%

Damage from dice:
(dice) * (pcrit) * (damage)
2*3*2 * .093 * (1*700/780+2*80/700) = 1.16

damage from critical constants
.093*(5*400/780+10*300/780+15*80/780) = .73

Average weight bonus for Haradekket per blow is thus 1.9 at clev 40,
assuming total to_hit bonus of 43.

For Avavir: (+1 extra DEX, slightly less weapon bonus)
pcrit = (250+44*5+40*3)/5000 = 11.8%
dice:
5*2*3*.118*(700/900+2*200/700) = 4.735
constants:
.118*(5*400/900+10*300/900+15*80/900) = .805

Total bonus is 5.5 damage per blow.

Note that pcrit for Avavir is .118, so you can expect to get one
critical hit every other player turn at clev 40

So clev 40:
(5d3*3 + 29 +5.5) * 5 = 323 (Avavir)
(2d5*2 + 31 +1.9) * 7 = 314 (Haradekket)

At clev 50, dex 180, pcrit for avavir is .126

(5d3*3 + 29 +5.9)*5 = 325

My previous calculation was with a much lower DEX, which reduced to_h
by a lot.

The big DEX bonus for a dwarf paladin in mid stat gain was just what
the dr ordered.

In fact, I used Avavir & Thalkettoth doing stat gain at 2400' for a
little while, then Itangast dropped Fingolfin, a *very* lucky find.
That opened the door for Mundwine, which has *very* useful slay demon.
(At current depth, demons are only big summoners.)

Balrog of Moria died with all his minions. I only had to rest to ID
junk :)

Final note: Holy Avenger or Slay Evil MoD is about as good a weapon as
you are ever likely to find, much better than Haradekket.

Warrior or Paladin can get 5 blows at 160 strength, 150 dex. Damage
from critical hits is

pcrit = 400+45*5+50*3 = .155 (Almost one critical hit every player
turn.)

5*4.5*3*.155*(700/1050+2*200/1050+3*150/1050) = 15.44
.155*(5*700/1050+10*200/1050+15*150/1050) = 1.14

For Demons(HA), Undead:
(5*4.5*3 + 15 + 20 + 15.6)*5 = 590 (Conservative)
For Slay Evil: = 452
For Tarrasque, Cat Lord: = 308 (Warrior might want a swap)

The only noticeably better weapons are all aggravating artifacts.

Of course, the variance of superb hits is extremely high. But when it
takes 50 hits to kill a monster, variance doesn't matter so much.

Anyway, my only winner was a warrior with 5 blows, and a randart
primary weapon from hell (Zarcuthra variant). Most of the time he
carried a low-damage weapon with ESP. He did not melee Morgoth, and he
did not fight Bile Wyrms or Many Colored Wyrms.

n) The Two-Handed Sword of Tungromel (6d6) (+14,+15) (+2) {25 pounds}
It increases your intelligence and charisma by 2. It increases your

infravision by 2. It slays giants, demons, and undead. It is
branded
with acid. It provides resistance to sound. It sustains your
charisma.
It grants you immunity to paralysis, but it also aggravates
creatures
around you. It activates for fire ball (72) every 40 turns. It
cannot
be harmed by the elements.

*Perfect* weapon for Troll Warrior. Desperately stupid; needed help
using magic devices. Damage ring would have been superfluous.

Tungromel was very hard on Sauron:
(6d6*3 +15 + 27 + 10.8)*5 = 579 :D

Eddie Grove

2005-06-05 21:42:14 UTC

Post by pete mack
I don't really understand why people think the warrior needs 6 blows
with heavy weapons. Warrior has a choice: use a mid-weight weapon, get
6 blows, and load up on equipment damage bonus. Or play like a paladin
and accept 5 blows with a heavy weapon, and possibly free up the ring
slot for something more interesting.

The point is that a warrior should be better than a paladin at
fighting. So if you want a warrior to get only 5 blows with the
heavy weapon, change the tables so that the paladin only gets 4.

It is easiest to do by giving the warrior +1 blow, and using the
same table/multipliers/divisors for everyone.

Eddie

pete mack

2005-06-05 23:25:24 UTC

Post by Eddie Grove

The point is that a warrior should be better than a paladin at
fighting. So if you want a warrior to get only 5 blows with the
heavy weapon, change the tables so that the paladin only gets 4.

I don't see why... a paladin *is* a warrior who can also cast some
spells. Paladin already levels much more slowly than warrior, and has
significantly fewer HP to start with. I thought that was enough.

Post by Eddie Grove
It is easiest to do by giving the warrior +1 blow, and using the
same table/multipliers/divisors for everyone.

So what you say is that Paladin is unbalanced now. I can kind of see
that, but I always assumed it was supposed to be that way.

Perhaps the thing to do is just a tweak:
* make the Paladin multiplier actually be 4, like it says in the
comments, rather than the 5 it is now.
* remove the '5's from line 2 in blows_table.

Result:

Paladins would need to use light weapons for (even) longer.
Paladin would get 4 blows with MoD.
Warrior would still get 5, but require strength 220, easy except for
challenge races.

Paladin could get 5 blows with anything 32 pounds (220 STR) or less.
(MoD is really is the issue here.)
Priests and rogues would get 5 blows with anything 24 (220 STR) pounds
or less, same as warrior for 6. (That's almost impossible for Priest.)

What the others are asking for is to increase the damage for warriors,
which presumably would unbalance warriors as well. (Warrior is also a
relatively easy class already. Or it wouldn't be my first win.)

I wouldn't like this change. I like paladin the way it is now.

As it stands, the two biggest damage ego items are:

MoD, 5 blows, branded: 590 low bonus; 665 high bonus
BoC, 6 blows, branded: 583 low bonus; 673 high bonus

MoD, 5 blows, Sl Evil: 452 low bonus; 527 high bonus
BoC, 6 blows, Sl Evil: 460 low bonus; 550 high bonus

I had assumed that *this* was the big advantage of warrior. Warrior
has twice the odds of finding a near-optimal weapon. To get max
damage, paladin is reduced to lugging around a brutally heavy weapon,
and not getting the chaos resist. And he can't up the damage to the
extent of a warrior with a BoC, because the mace only gives 5 blows.
If you want to make warrior more powerful, make the BoC a little
heavier, and maybe add a 6 to the blows table at lines 4 and 7.

[Phew. That was a lot of work]

Timo Pietilä

2005-06-06 08:05:30 UTC

Post by Eddie Grove
The point is that a warrior should be better than a paladin at
fighting. So if you want a warrior to get only 5 blows with the
heavy weapon, change the tables so that the paladin only gets 4.

"some" spells contains almost all priest spells. That is a lot of spells.

Post by Eddie Grove
It is easiest to do by giving the warrior +1 blow, and using the
same table/multipliers/divisors for everyone.

So what you say is that Paladin is unbalanced now. I can kind of see
that, but I always assumed it was supposed to be that way.

No, paladin is not unbalanced, if something is then it is warrior.
Paladin is comparable to ranger (barring brand ammo-spell).

Timo Pietilä

Timo Pietilä

2005-06-05 22:05:29 UTC

Post by pete mack
pcrit = 400+45*5+50*3 = .155 (Almost one critical hit every player
turn.)
5*4.5*3*.155*(700/1050+2*200/1050+3*150/1050) = 15.44
.155*(5*700/1050+10*200/1050+15*150/1050) = 1.14

This looks interesting. What are all these values?

Timo Pietilä

pete mack

2005-06-05 23:48:38 UTC

Post by pete mack
pcrit = 400+45*5+50*3 = .155 (Almost one critical hit every player
turn.)
5*4.5*3*.155*(700/1050+2*200/1050+3*150/1050) = 15.44
.155*(5*700/1050+10*200/1050+15*150/1050) = 1.14

This looks interesting. What are all these values?
Timo Pietilä

These are the break-points for various types of critical damage, from
cmd1.c
I made a mistake in the calculations, however, in that any roll over
700 gets a multiplier of 3. Only Grond gets a multiplier higher than
3.

5*4.5*3*.155*(700/1050+2*350/1050) = 13.95

My calculated MoD damage was too high by 7.5 points. Damn.

Restatement:
MoD, 5 blows, branded: 583 low bonus; 658 high bonus
BoC, 6 blows, branded: 583 low bonus; 673 high bonus

MoD, 5 blows, Sl Evil: 446 low bonus; 520 high bonus
BoC, 6 blows, Sl Evil: 460 low bonus; 550 high bonus

Both are very good weapons, but BoC is better.

This gives the chance of a critical hit.

i = (weight + ((p_ptr->to_h + plus) * 5) + (p_ptr->lev * 3));

if (randint(5000) <= i)
{

And this gives the quality of the critical hit. 5, 10, 15 are the
constant part; 1, 2, 3 are the multipliers. You need a weapon heavier
than 25 pounds to get a superb hit. You need Grond to do better than
superb.

k = weight + randint(650);

if (k < 400)
{
sound(MSG_HIT_GOOD);
msg_print("It was a good hit!");
dam = 2 * dam + 5;
}
else if (k < 700)
{
sound(MSG_HIT_GREAT);
msg_print("It was a great hit!");
dam = 2 * dam + 10;
}
else if (k < 900)
{
sound(MSG_HIT_SUPERB);
msg_print("It was a superb hit!");
dam = 3 * dam + 15;
}

Timo Pietilä

2005-06-06 08:13:49 UTC

Post by pete mack
pcrit = 400+45*5+50*3 = .155 (Almost one critical hit every player
turn.)
5*4.5*3*.155*(700/1050+2*200/1050+3*150/1050) = 15.44
.155*(5*700/1050+10*200/1050+15*150/1050) = 1.14

This looks interesting. What are all these values?

These are the break-points for various types of critical damage, from
cmd1.c
5*4.5*3*.155*(700/1050+2*350/1050) = 13.95

Because I couldn't quite parse how do you get above calculation from
code I'm forced to ask again.

What are all these values?

Timo Pietilä

pete mack

2005-06-06 16:14:34 UTC

Post by pete mack
pcrit = 400+45*5+50*3 = .155 (Almost one critical hit every player
turn.)
5*4.5*3*.155*(700/1050+2*200/1050+3*150/1050) = 15.44
.155*(5*700/1050+10*200/1050+15*150/1050) = 1.14

This looks interesting. What are all these values?

These are the break-points for various types of critical damage, from
cmd1.c
5*4.5*3*.155*(700/1050+2*350/1050) = 13.95

Because I couldn't quite parse how do you get above calculation from
code I'm forced to ask again.
What are all these values?

I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I thought that you had spotted my error
and were asking me to clarify on it. And in explaining I found another
error, which has no real effect on the calculations.

It's basic probability. The basic damage from the dice + brands/slays
is the variable "dam".

To calculate an expected value, you need to sum up all the possible
outcomes, multiplied by the probability of that outcome.

I simplified the expression by doing it as just calculating the
expected value of the bonus, and adding it to the base damage value.

so the expectation value for the bonus damage is

pcrit*(pgood*(dam+5)+pgreat*(dam+10)+psuperb*(2*dam+15)+pGREAT*(2*dam+20))

(I ignored the 20 vs 15. It makes almost no difference, and GREAT hits
have a very large variance, so you shouldn't rely on them anyway. It's
more of a flavor thing, really.)

Ignoring the 20, I rewrote this as

dam + dam*pcrit*((pgood+pgreat)+2*(psuperb+pGREAT))]
+pcrit*(pgood*5+pgreat*10+(psuperb+pGREAT)*15).

pcrit calculation is got from picking a random number between 0 and
(weight+to_h*5+plev*3-1) and comparing it to 5000. So that's a
(weight+to_h*5+plev*3)/5000 chance.

pgood compares some number between 0 and (weight+650-1) to 400.
For MoD, weight + 650 =1050

pgood = 400/1050
pgreat = (700-400)/1050
psuperb = (900-700)/1050
pGREAT = (1050-900)/1050

For Branded MoD pcrit is .155 as before;
dam*pcrit*((pgood+pgreat)+2*(psuperb+pGREAT)) is

5d8*3*.155/1050*(700+2*350) = 13.95

pcrit*(5*pgood+10*pgreat+15*(psuperb+pGREAT)) is
.155/1050*(5*400+10*300+15*(200+150)) = 1.51

One last time for MoD, again ignoring GREAT bonus to reduce dependency
on high variance:

Branded
(5*4.5*3+35+15.4) * 5 = 590
(5*4.5*3+45+15.4) * 5 = 640

Slay Evil:
(5*4.5*3+35+10.8) * 5 = 566
(5*4.5*3+45+15.4) * 5 = 616

Extremely close to the BoC... What a coincidence. It's almost as if
the original designers planned it that way, eh?

Timo Pietilä

2005-06-06 18:14:53 UTC

Post by pete mack
I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I thought that you had spotted my error
and were asking me to clarify on it. And in explaining I found another
so the expectation value for the bonus damage is
pcrit*(pgood*(dam+5)+pgreat*(dam+10)+psuperb*(2*dam+15)+pGREAT*(2*dam+20))

<snip rest>

Great stuff. I might wrote some sort of damage calculator that counts
these in (if somebody haven't done it yet).

Timo Pietilä

pete mack

2005-06-06 19:54:23 UTC

<snip rest>
Great stuff. I might write some sort of damage calculator that counts
these in (if somebody haven't done it yet).

That's a damn good idea. It was a pain to do it for all those weapons
types using bc. And of course they are all wrong, by a few points.

Glen Wheeler

2005-06-07 05:15:07 UTC

<snip rest>
Great stuff. I might wrote some sort of damage calculator that counts
these in (if somebody haven't done it yet).

Before you go and spend heaps of time on this, perhaps you could steal
the code from ZAngband 2.4.x weaponmasters, where the combat was largely
similar (if not identical) to [V]. The newer Zang doesn't have the same
combat system, but I don't see why the old one wouldn't be OK.

--
Glen
L:Pyt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+

pete mack

2005-06-08 19:40:09 UTC

<snip rest>
Great stuff. I might wrote some sort of damage calculator that counts
these in (if somebody haven't done it yet).
Timo Pietilä

Timo: your wish is my command. (Actually, I thought it was a good idea.
It's quite useful.)

Here's a bc script. (I wrote a script for an interpretive calculator
because I am lazy.)

bc is a standard unix command line calculator. It is available in
cygwin.

Here's a sample use, First showing basic Mundwine calcs, then some more
involved calcs I used in figuring out how to melee morgoth.

Note: '.' means current value in bc.

Weapon: Mundwine. (3d8, weight 250)
Clev 32, total to_hit 35, total to_dam 40.

[ These are the 'melee' numbers on the character info page. ]

$ bc bonus.bc
/* slay animal/slay evil */
/* dice*slay , weight, to_hit, clev */
d(3*4.5*2, 250,37,32)
30.975
/* Add to_dam */
.+40
70.975
/* 6% higher than nominal damage 67 */
/* multiply by blows */
.*5
354.875
/* slay demon */
d(3*4.5*3, 250, 37, 32) + 40
86.227
.*5
431.135

/* Weapon: MoD Avenger, +14, +19, Slay Ring (+9, +7), using !Hero and
/* Prayer spell. For heavy weapon, Slay ring is better than Damage
/* against AC 150, the final battle against Morgoth. */
/* First the nominal damage */
d(5*4.5*2, 400, 71, 50) +53
109.805
.*5
549.025

/* Here's how to compute the (a)ctual expected damage against Morgoth
*/
/* dwarf paladin clev 50 */

/* base thn, thn from clev, thn from race. From p_class.txt, p_race.txt
*/
68+3.5*50+9
252
/* nominal damage, intrinsic thn, melee+temporary to_hit, opponent AC
*/
a(549,252,71,150)
371.903

/* Without !Hero, Prayer, killing Morgoth takes 4 melee rounds
longer.*/
5*a(d(5*4.5*2, 400, 56, 50)+53, 252, 56, 150)
349.800

-------------------------------
code begins
-------------------------------
/* damage bonus, given damage, weight tohit, player level */
define d (d,w,h,l) {
auto a, b, c;
c = (w+h*5+l*3);
if( w <= 50) {
a = 1;
b = (5 * 400 + 10 *(650+w-400))/(650+w);
} else {
a = (700 + 2*(650+w-700))/(650+w);
b = 5 * 400;
if( w <= 700 - 150 ) {
b = b + 10*(650+w-700);
} else {
b = b + 10*300 + 15*(650+w-700);
}
b = b/(650+w);
}

d = d + c* ( a*d + b )/5000 ) +0.5;

}

/* (a)ctual damage against AC, given
nominal damage,
base tohit,
melee + temporary tohit,
opponent AC
*/

define a (d, h, m, a) {
return ( d*(h+3*m-a)/(h+3*m) )
}

pete mack

2005-06-08 19:57:35 UTC

I made a cut-and paste mistake in the previous submission. Corrected
code below.
------------------------------------
bonus.bc
------------------------------------
scale=3
/* damage bonus, given damage, weight tohit, player level */
define d (d,w,h,l) {
auto a, b, c;
c = (w+h*5+l*3);
if( w <= 50) {
a = 1;
b = (5 * 400 + 10 *(650+w-400))/(650+w);
} else {
a = (700 + 2*(650+w-700))/(650+w);
b = 5 * 400;
if( w <= 700 - 150 ) {
b = b + 10*(650+w-700);
} else {
b = b + 10*300 + 15*(650+w-700);
}
b = b/(650+w);
}

return ( d + c* ( a*d + b )/5000 ));

}

/* (a)ctual damage against AC, given
nominal damage,
base tohit,
melee + temporary tohit,
opponent AC
*/

define a (d, h, m, a) {
return ( d*(h+3*m-a)/(h+3*m) )
}

pete mack

2005-06-08 20:07:18 UTC

One last try at getting all the text. Fixed a comment.

--------------------------------
/* keep 3 digits */
scale = 3

/* critical (d)amage, given base damage, weight tohit, player level */
define d (d,w,h,l) {
auto a, b, c, s;
c = (w+h*5+l*3);
if( w <= 50) {
a = 1;
b = (5 * 400 + 10 *(650+w-400))/(650+w);
} else {
a = (700 + 2*(650+w-700))/(650+w);
b = 5 * 400;
if( w <= 700 - 150 ) {
b = b + 10*(650+w-700);
} else {
b = b + 10*300 + 15*(650+w-700);
}
b = b/(650+w);
}
d =( d + c* ( a*d + b )/5000 ) ;
return (d)
}

/* Damage against AC, given nominal damage,
base tohit, melee + temporary tohit, opponent AC */

define a (d, h, m, a) {
return ( d*(h+3*m-a)/(h+3*m) )
}

Timo Pietilä

2005-06-09 07:23:40 UTC

Post by pete mack
/* critical (d)amage, given base damage, weight tohit, player level */
define d (d,w,h,l) {
auto a, b, c, s;

Nice.

Variable names should be more clear IMO if bc can handle them.

Define damage (damage,weight,hit,level) {

etc.

Doing WSH script for this same...

Timo Pietilä

pete mack

2005-06-09 16:30:20 UTC

Post by pete mack
/* critical (d)amage, given base damage, weight tohit, player level */
define d (d,w,h,l) {
auto a, b, c, s;

Nice.
Variable names should be more clear IMO if bc can handle them.
Define damage (damage,weight,hit,level) {
etc.
Doing WSH script for this same...

Nope. bc only has 26 variable names, a-z. Like I said, it's a
calculator.

And in fact, the function names really are better with single letters.
I don't want to type damage() all the time to use it.

a(d(...),....)

is much easier to type. Anyway, I used bc rather than C etc, because I
wanted to allow expressions as arguments. And it should work in
cygwin.

Julian Lighton

2005-06-06 18:36:36 UTC

Post by pete mack
It's basic probability. The basic damage from the dice + brands/slays
is the variable "dam".
To calculate an expected value, you need to sum up all the possible
outcomes, multiplied by the probability of that outcome.
I simplified the expression by doing it as just calculating the
expected value of the bonus, and adding it to the base damage value.
so the expectation value for the bonus damage is
pcrit*(pgood*(dam+5)+pgreat*(dam+10)+psuperb*(2*dam+15)+pGREAT*(2*dam+20))
(I ignored the 20 vs 15. It makes almost no difference, and GREAT hits
have a very large variance, so you shouldn't rely on them anyway. It's
more of a flavor thing, really.)

Doesn't this calculation assume you can get multiple crits at once?

(I could be wrong - my probability has mostly atrophied from disuse.)

--
Julian Lighton ***@fragment.com
/* You are not expected to understand this. */

pete mack

2005-06-06 19:02:17 UTC

Post by Julian Lighton

Post by pete mack
so the expectation value for the bonus damage is
pcrit*(pgood*(dam+5)+pgreat*(dam+10)+psuperb*(2*dam+15)+pGREAT*(2*dam+20))
(I ignored the 20 vs 15. It makes almost no difference, and GREAT hits
have a very large variance, so you shouldn't rely on them anyway. It's
more of a flavor thing, really.)

Doesn't this calculation assume you can get multiple crits at once?
(I could be wrong - my probability has mostly atrophied from disuse.)

No, my calculation is correct, this time around.

To refresh your memory, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectation_value

pete mack

2005-06-06 01:50:31 UTC

Ok, that was an interesting diversion, from something that was intended
as nothing more than a side comment.

What I really need to ask is: what should I carry, and what should I
sell?

So:

* What should I carry?
What books do people carry as Paladin?
I've got all of the first 6, and can see no good way to ditch any of
them. I tried using the Phial as a replacement for Call Light, but was
unhappy with the results. (Darkness attacks, long recharge time.
Also, detect evil is a better workhorse spell than detect monsters.
Invisible undead are a bigger risk than drolems &c.)

* What should I sell? With Infusions, I now have 3 viable launchers,
and can exclusively use ego ammo. But it uses a hell of a lot of
storage space. And there are all the required potions and scrolls to
accumulate...

Is Banishment better than Rshards and speed? (Is Celeborn *the* armor
for the rest of the game? Banishment with recharge is very nice
indeed.)

What started this, Avavir, has been sold, as I now have Fingolfin and
plenty of dexterity. But until Fingolfin came along, Avavir let me
fight well above my weight. (Mundwine Slay Demon kicks Balrog ass, and
Mundwine has far fewer holes, though it does marginally less damage
than Avavir for most foes.)

Anyway, with better equipment, I could finally kill some uniques. They
went down one after another.

[Angband 3.0.6 alpha 2 Character Dump]

Name Quixote_Jr Self RB CB EB
Best
Sex Male Age 40 STR: 18/97 +2 +3 +4
18/187
Race Dwarf Height 47 INT: 18/31 -3 -3 +0
16
Class Paladin Weight 167 WIS: 18/97 +2 +1 +3
18/157
Title Chevalier Status 63 DEX: 18/93 -2 +0 +6
18/133
HP 708/708 Maximize Y CON: 18/59 +2 +2 +7
18/169
SP 242/242 Preserve Y CHR: 18/45 -3 +2 +7
18/105

Level 39 Armor [55,+109] Saving Throw
Heroic
Cur Exp 1429912 Fight (+29,+24) Stealth Very
Good
Max Exp 1429912 Melee (+41,+41) Fighting
Legendary
Adv Exp 1550000 Shoot (+40,+10) Shooting
Legendary
MaxDepth 2550 ft Blows 5/turn Disarming
Excellent
Turns 2206226 Shots 2/turn Magic Device
Superb
Gold 543487 Infra 70 ft Perception
Fair
Burden 173.3 lbs Speed +7 Searching
Fair

You are the only child of a Dwarven Warrior. You are a credit to the
family. You have dark brown eyes, straight black hair, a three foot
beard, and a dark complexion.

abcdefghijkl@ abcdefghijkl@
Acid:......+.+.+.. Blind:............+
Elec:......+.+.... Confu:.........+...
Fire:......+.+.... Sound:.............
Cold:......+.+.... Shard:.............
Pois:....+........ Nexus:....+........
Fear:............. Nethr:.............
Lite:............. Chaos:.............
Dark:......+...... Disen:......+......

abcdefghijkl@ abcdefghijkl@
S.Dig:............. Stea.:....+..+.....
Feath:............. Sear.:....+........
PLite:............. Infra:....+........
Regen:............. Tunn.:.............
Telep:............. Speed:....+..+...+.
Invis:............. Blows:.............
FrAct:..........+.. Shots:.+...........
HLife:............. Might:.............

[Character Equipment]

a) The Lochaber Axe 'Mundwine' (3d8) (+12,+17) {RBase,SL:EvlAnmDmn}
It cannot be harmed by the elements. It might have hidden powers.
b) a Long Bow of Extra Shots (x3) (+11,+10) (+1)
It increases your shooting speed by 1.
c) a Mithril Ring of Constitution (+3)
It increases your constitution by 3. It sustains your constitution.

d) a Mithril Ring of Constitution (+4)
It increases your constitution by 4. It sustains your constitution.

e) a Carved Oak Amulet of Trickery (+2) {Ethereal drake, 2450'}
It increases your dexterity by 2. It increases your stealth,
searching,
infravision, and speed by 2. It provides resistance to poison and
nexus. It sustains your dexterity.
f) The Star of Elendil {!d!v, Lokkak 2300'}
It lights the dungeon around you. It cannot be harmed by the
elements.
It might have hidden powers.
g) The Mithril Plate Mail of Celeborn (-3) [35,+25] (+4)
{RBaseDrkDis,Banish,!}
It increases your strength and charisma by 4. It provides
resistance
to acid, lightning, fire, cold, dark, and disenchantment. It
activates
for banishment every 500 turns. It cannot be harmed by the
elements.
h) The Cloak 'Colannon' [1,+15] (+3) {Nxs,Teleport,!*!d!v!!}
It increases your stealth and speed by 3. It cannot be harmed by
the
elements. It might have hidden powers.
i) The Large Metal Shield of Anarion [5,+20]
It provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, and cold. It
sustains
all your stats. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
j) The Metal Cap of Thengel [3,+12] (+3)
It increases your wisdom and charisma by 3. It provides resistance
to
confusion. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
k) The Set of Cesti of Fingolfin (+10,+10) [5,+20] (+4)
It increases your dexterity by 4. It provides resistance to acid.
It
grants you immunity to paralysis. It activates for a magical arrow
(150) every 30+d30 turns. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
l) a Pair of Metal Shod Boots of Speed [6,+8] (+2) {!d!v}
It increases your speed by 2.

[Character Inventory]

a) 2 Holy Books of Prayers [Beginners Handbook]
b) 2 Holy Books of Prayers [Words of Wisdom]
[ Chants incinerated by Balrogs]
c) 3 Holy Books of Prayers [Exorcism and Dispelling]
d) 3 Holy Books of Prayers [Ethereal Openings] {!d!v!*}
It cannot be harmed by the elements.
e) a Holy Book of Prayers [Godly Insights] {!d!v}
It cannot be harmed by the elements.
[!CCW for sound/stunning.]
f) 3 Clotted Red Potions of Healing {!*}
g) 2 Silver Speckled Potions of Restore Mana
h) 4 Grey Potions of Restore Life Levels {!*}
i) 2 Scrolls titled "vlynes sunox" of Teleport Level {!*!*!*, 40% off}
j) 3 Scrolls titled "nih solsef" of Word of Recall {!*}
k) a Mithril-Plated Rod of Teleport Other {!d!v!k!!,!*}
l) 5 Tin-Plated Rods of Light {!!}
m) 9 Aluminium Wands of Teleport Other (69 charges) {!*}
n) a Cypress Staff of Speed (6 charges)
o) an Eucalyptus Staff of *Destruction* (4 charges) {!*!*}
p) 29 Arrows of Frost (1d4) (+9,+12)
It is branded with frost. It cannot be harmed by cold.
q) 25 Arrows of Flame (1d4) (+7,+3)
It is branded with fire. It cannot be harmed by fire.
r) 21 Mithril Arrows (3d4) (+7,+3)
It cannot be harmed by acid or fire.

[Home Inventory]

a) a Holy Book of Prayers [Holy Infusions]
It cannot be harmed by the elements.
b) 3 Dark Green Mushrooms of Restoring {!*}
c) 14 Metallic Purple Potions of Speed {!*}
d) 3 Clotted Red Potions of Healing {!*}
e) a Bubbling Potion of *Healing* {!*}
f) 4 Silver Speckled Potions of Restore Mana
g) 5 Scrolls titled "batx wex umviv" of Teleportation {40% off}
h) 8 Scrolls titled "vlynes sunox" of Teleport Level {!*!*!*, 40% off}
i) 5 Scrolls titled "shusna jobu" of *Identify* {!*}
j) a Scroll titled "rog resna" of Rune of Protection {!*}
k) 2 Scrolls titled "mungri nerdan" of *Destruction*
l) 3 Scrolls titled "rogro beker" of Banishment {!*}
m) 2 Cypress Staffs of Speed (11 charges)
// Sell?
// This gives 25% more mana, but Trickery gives me RPois and
speed/damage.
// Heal fail is at 6% anyway, so the reduced failure doesn't help much.
n) a Golden Amulet of Wisdom (+4)
It increases your wisdom by 4. It sustains your wisdom.
// Experiment was a failure. Perhaps should sell this.
// However, same experiment would succeed with ESP.
o) The Phial of Galadriel {Algroth, 1950'}
It lights the dungeon around you. It cannot be harmed by the
elements.
It might have hidden powers.
// Sound+Conf is a good combo. But presumably Banishment is better?
// Sell?
p) The Full Plate Armour of Isildur [25,+25] (+1) {RBase,Snd,Cnf,Nxs}
It increases your constitution by 1. It cannot be harmed by the
elements. It might have hidden powers.
// Sell?
q) The Leather Scale Mail 'Thalkettoth' (-1) [11,+25] (+3) {Acid,Shrd}
It increases your dexterity by 3. It increases your speed by 3. It
cannot be harmed by the elements. It might have hidden powers.
// Sell? (Celeborn has Rdise)
r) a Cloak of Aman [1,+11] (+3 to stealth) {Floor, 2000'}
It increases your stealth by 3. It provides resistance to
disenchantment. It cannot be harmed by the elements.
// This would go great with Isildur, but I currently need Rconf from
Thengel.
// Also, I need to get wisdom from *somewhere*
s) The Steel Helm of Hammerhand [6,+20] (+3)
It increases your strength, dexterity, and constitution by 3. It
cannot be harmed by the elements. It might have hidden powers.
// With RDis from sword, I could wear lots of other gear.
t) The Bastard Sword 'Calris' (5d4) (-15,+20) (+5)
{Dise,Sl:*DrgTrlDmnEvl, cur}
It increases your constitution by 5. It is cursed. It cannot be
harmed by the elements. It might have hidden powers.
u) The Mace 'Taratol' (3d4) (+12,+12) {IMElec,Sl:*Drg,Haste}
It cannot be harmed by the elements. It might have hidden powers.
// With 3 launchers, accumulating Slay evil and Branded ammo should be
easy.
// But where can I put the ammo ? Should I sell longbow, because ammo
breaks so easily, or sling, because ammo is so rare? Or keep both?
v) a Sling of Buckland (x2) (+12,+15) (+1)
It increases your dexterity by 1. It increases your shooting speed
and
shooting power by 1. It cannot be harmed by acid or fire.
w) a Light Crossbow of Extra Shots (x3) (+14,+19) (+1)
It increases your shooting speed by 1.
x) 36 Arrows of Slay Evil (1d4) (+9,+13)
It slays all evil creatures.

Quixote_Jr the Dwarf Paladin
Began the quest to kill Morgoth on 06/02/2005 at 06:28 PM
============================================================
CHAR.
| TURN | DEPTH |LEVEL| EVENT
============================================================
| 23356| 150 | 5 | Reached level 5
| 27996| 150 | 5 | Killed Fang, Farmer Maggot's dog
| 66491| 350 | 10 | Reached level 10
| 79766| 350 | 11 | Killed Bullroarer the Hobbit
| 84866| 350 | 11 | Killed Smeagol
| 93026| 400 | 12 | Killed Lagduf, the Snaga
| 129818| 500 | 14 | Driftwood Amulet: Teleportation
| 130998| 500 | 15 | Reached level 15
| 135565| 500 | 15 | Killed Wormtongue, Agent of Saruman
| 164190| 550 | 16 | Killed Grip, Farmer Maggot's dog
| 167160| 550 | 17 | Killed Grishnakh, the Hill Orc
| 168160| 550 | 17 | Killed Orfax, Son of Boldor
| 200606| 700 | 18 | Killed Brodda, the Easterling
| 227984| 750 | 19 | Killed Ufthak of Cirith Ungol
| 240449| Town | 19 | Town, 800'
| 247141| 800 | 20 | Reached level 20
| 247311| 800 | 20 | Killed Golfimbul, the Hill Orc Chief
| 259897| 800 | 20 | fu do traps?
| 294840| 900 | 22 | Killed Boldor, King of the Yeeks
| 313904| Town | 22 | Killed Farmer Maggot
| 421453| 1050 | 25 | Reached level 25
| 440752| 1100 | 25 | Killed Lugdush, the Uruk
| 575306| 1500 | 27 | Killed Ugluk, the Uruk
| 634976| 1500 | 27 | Killed Sangahyando of Umbar
| 777605| 1550 | 28 | Killed Uldor the Accursed
| 791397| 1600 | 28 | Killed Bolg, Son of Azog
| 891458| 1700 | 29 | Killed Gorbag, the Orc Captain
| 895292| 1700 | 29 | Killed Mughash the Kobold Lord
| 921879| 1800 | 30 | Reached level 30
| 1009484| 1800 | 30 | fu do -traps
| 1339923| 1950 | 31 | Killed Ibun, Son of Mim
| 1385051| 1950 | 31 | Killed Shagrat, the Orc Captain
| 1385260| 1950 | 31 | Destroyed Draebor, the Imp
| 1534281| 1950 | 31 | Killed Mim, Betrayer of Turin
| 1625597| 2000 | 32 | Killed Tom the Stone Troll
| 1645292| Town | 32 | 2000': Lt xbow (x4)
| 1646958| 2000 | 32 | Killed Angamaite of Umbar
| 1825600| 2300 | 33 | Killed Lokkak, the Ogre Chieftain
| 1883438| 2450 | 33 | Killed Khim, Son of Mim
| 1897689| 2450 | 33 | Killed Beorn, the Shape-Changer
| 2025585| 2400 | 34 | Killed Nar, the Dwarf
| 2036052| 2400 | 34 | Killed Itangast the Fire Drake
| 2039252| 2400 | 34 | Itangast: Fingolfin, Orcrist
| 2043172| 2400 | 34 | Killed Scatha the Worm
| 2047482| 2400 | 34 | Destroyed Akhorahil the Blind
| 2067143| 2450 | 35 | Reached level 35
| 2067143| 2450 | 35 | Destroyed Quaker, Master of Earth
| 2093235| 2400 | 35 | Killed Smaug the Golden
| 2129254| 2300 | 36 | Destroyed Ariel, Queen of Air
| 2139917| 2350 | 36 | Killed The Queen Ant
| 2165717| 2550 | 37 | Killed Ulwarth, Son of Ulfang
| 2173795| 2550 | 37 | Celegorm, Giant Pit
| 2179807| 2550 | 38 | Destroyed The Balrog of Moria
| 2182954| 2550 | 38 | Killed Ulfast, Son of Ulfang
| 2187083| 2550 | 39 | Carlammas: Lesser Balrog
| 2192456| 2550 | 39 | Killed Kavlax the Many-Headed
| 2195528| 2550 | 39 | Killed Eol, the Dark Elf
============================================================

Eddie Grove

2005-06-06 05:34:59 UTC

Post by pete mack
Ok, that was an interesting diversion, from something that was intended
as nothing more than a side comment.
What I really need to ask is: what should I carry, and what should I
sell?

I asked the same sort of questions back in March, no reply.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.angband/browse_frm/thread/e3bb1042a97f63f3/f0f7edea8d2193cf?q=paladin+group:*.*.*.angband+author:grove&rnum=2&hl=en#f0f7edea8d2193cf

Post by pete mack
* What should I carry?
What books do people carry as Paladin?
I've got all of the first 6, and can see no good way to ditch any of
them. I tried using the Phial as a replacement for Call Light, but was
unhappy with the results. (Darkness attacks, long recharge time.

I made do. Slots are more precious than lack of light is annoying.

Post by pete mack
Also, detect evil is a better workhorse spell than detect monsters.
Invisible undead are a bigger risk than drolems &c.)

Oh - I had Thranduil for ESP, which makes a big difference.

Post by pete mack
// Sell? (Celeborn has Rdise)
r) a Cloak of Aman [1,+11] (+3 to stealth) {Floor, 2000'}
It increases your stealth by 3. It provides resistance to
disenchantment. It cannot be harmed by the elements.

Don't sell. You may want this some day.

Sorry I have nothing useful to suggest.

Eddie

pete mack

2005-06-06 19:41:10 UTC

Post by Eddie Grove

I asked the same sort of questions back in March, no reply.

Heh, I can answer some of your questions *now* :-)

Some of them are easier than mine. Like

keep amulet of wisdom. Your mana is kind of low. And mana is your
source of killing power.
sell Haradekket.
sell Celegorm.

I left Celegorm on the floor. I also left Carlammas, which was stupid.
+2 con amulet might free things up at some point.

It occurs to me that the thing to do is to forget about slay evil ammo,
and just melee morgoth. No question that bow was right weapon for
Warrior, but paladin has self heal.

The plan is:
Use +shots xbow until Slay Evil ammo runs out.
Then use melee, and:
* Lots of wisdom and/or !Restore Mana, since mana can be converted to
damage.
* Permanent speed >30, because self heal *will* fail.

I can already do it with my current gear.

I need to keep:
Banishment/Destruction/Mass Banishment
!Heal, !Life, !*Heal
Lose
Glyph of warding.
All ammo & bows except for Haradrim xbow.
(Rely on melee when the ammo runs out)

I played for a few hours yesterday. Up to clev 41, 3000'. The RNG
smiled, big=time.

I've now got:

RoSpeed(+7) (Diagonal Vault, 2600')
Cubragol (Troll pit 2600'. Dispel evil is fun.)
Thror (Ar-Phalezon 2900')
Ringil (Ar-Phalezon 2900')
Haradrim (Saruman)
Evenstar as swap for trickery when fighting undead.
Barahir (Shelob) (using this until I find good Slay, Damage, or Speed.

The plus to wisdom, str, dex all add up to doing more damage
before you are exhausted. (I didn't warehouse damage, since
they're easy to find. And I have yet to find really good
Slay.)
Crown Of Magi with ESP. I can't use it. I'd need Isildur for RConf
(and get Rsound). But I don't want to give up Banishment.
And I don't want to give up all that mana. 63 mana points
corresponds
to 3000 damage inflicted on your foes, assuming self heal every 3
rounds.
And carrying armor as a swap is preposterous.

Current Gear: (At clev 40, I was finally able to enchant Calris.)
Calris (Very nice for paladin.
Self-heal deals easily with Aggravation, even w/o ESP.
Dispel Undead deals with gangs of lesser pass-walls. And
*Slay* dragon
makes it a better weapon than Ringil.)
Barahir, until I get Slay/Damage/Speed
Speed(+7)
Trickery; evenstar swap for undead & Nether breathers.
Star. Ditched book 3. No more fun games with OoD for
druj/Q. Call Light/Detect Evil are too important
without ESP. Teleport other is good enough for Q.
Celeborn. I value banishment for Z and L more than RSound. And
STR=Damage.
Colannon
Anarion
Fingolfin
Thror

(Current) Morgoth Gear.
Ringil/(Calris)
Cubragol (But use Haradrim until ammo runs out.)
Damage/(Speed)
Speed
Trickery {RPois}.
If I get ESP, I will probably use Devotion instead.
Will use Devotion & asc against Sauron, Cantoras, etc.
No need to bother with circular asc, and risk chance of
around-the-loop summoning of kin.
Palantir, I hope....
Isildur/(Celeborn)
Aman{RDis}/(Colannon)
Hammerhand/(Thengel)
Fingolfin
Thror

Ringil is my current choice, since it does 8-10% more damage per round.
Mana isn't so important, since I'll be spending all my !Restore mana,
and it makes the Haradrim/Cubragol swap easier.

Still, with Calris, I have the option of using any of:
Isildur+Hammerhand (Damage + Rsound)
Celeborn+Thengel (Damage + Mana)
Isildur+Thengel (Mana + Rsound)
Isildur+ESP. (If no Palantir)
Celeborn+ESP (Damage+ESP, loses RConf. A little scary.)

Isildur+ESP means I can see things coming, but will mean significantly
less damage per round, and a lot more !Restore mana.

bluetrolls

2005-06-06 06:21:36 UTC

I played iroman lately, thus I'm a bit extreme on inventory management. Take
with a grain of salt.

Post by pete mack
b) a Long Bow of Extra Shots (x3) (+11,+10) (+1)

Xbow.

Post by pete mack
c) a Mithril Ring of Constitution (+3)
d) a Mithril Ring of Constitution (+4)

Is the HP bonus worth two RoCon? Maybe you can sneak in a nice RoDamage?

Post by pete mack
h) 4 Grey Potions of Restore Life Levels {!*}

Do you really need those? By the end of the game you'll have more XP than you'll
ever need.

Post by pete mack
i) 2 Scrolls titled "vlynes sunox" of Teleport Level {!*!*!*, 40% off}

Do you really need those?

Post by pete mack
k) a Mithril-Plated Rod of Teleport Other {!d!v!k!!,!*}

You have the wands already. Better failure rate + higher rate-of-fire,
teleporting hordes of monsters in an emergency, not only one.

Post by pete mack
l) 5 Tin-Plated Rods of Light {!!}

You have MagicMapping + Detection. What do you need light for?

Post by pete mack
o) an Eucalyptus Staff of *Destruction* (4 charges) {!*!*}

Scrolls are better imho. None absolutely necessary, I usually save them for
Morgoth fight.

Post by pete mack
l) 3 Scrolls titled "rogro beker" of Banishment {!*}

You have it as activation, and MassBanisment is what you are looking for. But
either MB or Tele+*Destr* are good enough for Morgoth, you don't need both.

Post by pete mack
m) 2 Cypress Staffs of Speed (11 charges)

Carry them or sell them. You have potions if all get destroyed.

Post by pete mack
n) a Golden Amulet of Wisdom (+4)

Sell.

Post by pete mack
o) The Phial of Galadriel {Algroth, 1950'}

Sell, for the reasons above.

Post by pete mack
p) The Full Plate Armour of Isildur [25,+25] (+1) {RBase,Snd,Cnf,Nxs}

Carry as swap?

Post by pete mack
q) The Leather Scale Mail 'Thalkettoth' (-1) [11,+25] (+3) {Acid,Shrd}

Carry as swap?

Post by pete mack
r) a Cloak of Aman [1,+11] (+3 to stealth) {Floor, 2000'}

Keep it, might make a nice swapping combo with Thalk. And give you more options
later.

Post by pete mack
s) The Steel Helm of Hammerhand [6,+20] (+3)

I don't like aggr, but that's just me. And it looks like NPP, where stealth is
crucial.

Post by pete mack
t) The Bastard Sword 'Calris' (5d4) (-15,+20) (+5)
u) The Mace 'Taratol' (3d4) (+12,+12) {IMElec,Sl:*Drg,Haste}

Which *Slay Dragon* you preffer? If you are not going to carry any of those (not
even as swap) then you might want ditch them already (more likely Taratol).

Post by pete mack
v) a Sling of Buckland (x2) (+12,+15) (+1)

Make up you mind: slings, bows or xbows. To me is a nobrainer, xbows.
Thus sell.

Post by pete mack
w) a Light Crossbow of Extra Shots (x3) (+14,+19) (+1)

Wear this, get some bolts. You'll eventually find better.

Post by pete mack
x) 36 Arrows of Slay Evil (1d4) (+9,+13)

Sell.

Timo Pietilä

2005-06-06 08:19:52 UTC

Post by pete mack
c) a Mithril Ring of Constitution (+3)
d) a Mithril Ring of Constitution (+4)

Is the HP bonus worth two RoCon? Maybe you can sneak in a nice RoDamage?

IMO yes. At least until he has maxed his CON.

Post by pete mack
t) The Bastard Sword 'Calris' (5d4) (-15,+20) (+5)
u) The Mace 'Taratol' (3d4) (+12,+12) {IMElec,Sl:*Drg,Haste}

Which *Slay Dragon* you preffer? If you are not going to carry any of those (not
even as swap) then you might want ditch them already (more likely Taratol).

Taratol has a very useful activation for Paladin: Haste. Priest and
Paladins do not get haste as spell so that can be invaluable later. It
also gives IMM_ELEC which can prove useful. Calris is better in damage,
but it also aggravates. Maybe Taratol as main weapon and Calris as swap?

Timo Pietilä

pete mack

2005-06-06 19:40:51 UTC

Thanks for the response.

Post by bluetrolls
I played iroman lately, thus I'm a bit extreme on inventory management. Take
with a grain of salt.

Post by pete mack
b) a Long Bow of Extra Shots (x3) (+11,+10) (+1)

Xbow.

Post by pete mack
c) a Mithril Ring of Constitution (+3)
d) a Mithril Ring of Constitution (+4)

Is the HP bonus worth two RoCon? Maybe you can sneak in a nice RoDamage?

No, HP are critical right now. I am pushing the depth.

Post by pete mack
h) 4 Grey Potions of Restore Life Levels {!*}

Do you really need those? By the end of the game you'll have more XP than you'll
ever need.

Yes, and at the end of the game I will lose it. But for now I am
looking to rack up HP and mana. When I posted that, I was at clev 39.
I needed clev 40 to enchant Calris.

Post by pete mack
i) 2 Scrolls titled "vlynes sunox" of Teleport Level {!*!*!*, 40% off}

Do you really need those?

Yes. Teleport level is my primary escape when things go very bad.
(Like gravity attack moving you into a room full of Time Hounds. Or
gravity attack when hallucinating.) Teleport Level is a lot easier to
find than *Destruction* , which I save for uniques or other interesting
situations. I need to be able to do multiple reliable tele-levels
until I find a safe spot. (Teleport level is safe, because you always
get the first move coming into a level. Teleport self, on the other
hand, is suicide. I know this all too well. )

Don't need to carry many, but I do need 2 or 3. If I get enough
*Destruction* I can stock that instead.

Post by pete mack
k) a Mithril-Plated Rod of Teleport Other {!d!v!k!!,!*}

You have the wands already. Better failure rate + higher rate-of-fire,
teleporting hordes of monsters in an emergency, not only one.

The failure rate isn't that much better. And If I get enough rods (I
now have 3), I can lose the wands, and not worry about ill-timed
unbonus attacks.

Post by pete mack
l) 5 Tin-Plated Rods of Light {!!}

You have MagicMapping + Detection. What do you need light for?

I don't have ESP. Rods make it possible to spot a bunch of off-screen
houndss in a long north-south hallway.

And using the rods forces me to play more carefully.

Post by pete mack
o) an Eucalyptus Staff of *Destruction* (4 charges) {!*!*}

Scrolls are better imho. None absolutely necessary, I usually save them for
Morgoth fight.

I save the scrolls, use & recharge the Staffs for any vaults I don't
want to deal with, but still want the artifacts, if any.

Post by pete mack
l) 3 Scrolls titled "rogro beker" of Banishment {!*}

You have it as activation, and MassBanisment is what you are looking for. But
either MB or Tele+*Destr* are good enough for Morgoth, you don't need both.

I want any kind of Banishment for Morgoth. Mass Banishment is
extremely rare. I used both types successfully in my one win.
(Banishment works against Dragons and Demons; Save mass banishment for
summon undead and summon monsters.)

Post by pete mack
m) 2 Cypress Staffs of Speed (11 charges)

Carry them or sell them. You have potions if all get destroyed.

I agree. But I was overloaded at the time.

Post by pete mack
n) a Golden Amulet of Wisdom (+4)

Sell.

Done.

Post by pete mack
o) The Phial of Galadriel {Algroth, 1950'}

Sell, for the reasons above.

Post by pete mack
p) The Full Plate Armour of Isildur [25,+25] (+1) {RBase,Snd,Cnf,Nxs}

Carry as swap?

It's *really* heavy.

Post by pete mack
q) The Leather Scale Mail 'Thalkettoth' (-1) [11,+25] (+3) {Acid,Shrd}

Carry as swap?

Maybe.

Post by pete mack
r) a Cloak of Aman [1,+11] (+3 to stealth) {Floor, 2000'}

Keep it, might make a nice swapping combo with Thalk. And give you more options
later.

Yup.

Post by pete mack
s) The Steel Helm of Hammerhand [6,+20] (+3)

I don't like aggr, but that's just me. And it looks like NPP, where stealth is
crucial.

It's vanilla. (I hacked in the ego list and turn count display.)

Aggravation is not such a problem for paladin. Maybe not even in NPP.

Post by pete mack
t) The Bastard Sword 'Calris' (5d4) (-15,+20) (+5)
u) The Mace 'Taratol' (3d4) (+12,+12) {IMElec,Sl:*Drg,Haste}

Which *Slay Dragon* you preffer? If you are not going to carry any of those (not
even as swap) then you might want ditch them already (more likely Taratol).

I was keeping Taratol for the immunity, not the haste or slay. I was
considering specializing in Blue Dragon pits.

Post by pete mack
v) a Sling of Buckland (x2) (+12,+15) (+1)

Make up you mind: slings, bows or xbows. To me is a nobrainer, xbows.
Thus sell.

Post by pete mack
w) a Light Crossbow of Extra Shots (x3) (+14,+19) (+1)

Wear this, get some bolts. You'll eventually find better.

Post by pete mack
x) 36 Arrows of Slay Evil (1d4) (+9,+13)

Here I agree with you, but for different reasons. I was extremely
frustrated by having to scum for slay evil ammo after killing Sauron.
By carrying all types for the final battle, I can accumulate the ammo
much more quickly.

But that was a warrior. I can melee Morgoth as a Paladin.

I'll use the xbow until I run out of ammo, then switch to melee.

See my response to eddie for details.

pete mack

2005-06-08 05:48:01 UTC