[tw5] How protect tiddlers?

[Mat]

How can I ensure a tiddler is not overwritten?

I do not mean that someone would click the *edit* button etc but rather
myself *generating* a tiddler that accidently has the same ID (i.e title)
as an already existing tiddler.

Is it at all possible to protect a tiddler against this?

I guess the second best would be to make it a shadow tid, i.e so that it
can be overwritten but then at least restored. What, then, is the best
workflow to convert a tiddler into a shadow tid? AFAIK there is no quick
button to do so (e.g changing the tiddler *type* to "shadow" or some such)

Ideas?

<:-)

[passingby]

if you are creating a tiddler by hand, TW gives you a warning about pre
existing tiddler.

Post by Mat
How can I ensure a tiddler is not overwritten?
I do not mean that someone would click the *edit* button etc but rather
myself *generating* a tiddler that accidently has the same ID (i.e title)
as an already existing tiddler.
Is it at all possible to protect a tiddler against this?
I guess the second best would be to make it a shadow tid, i.e so that it
can be overwritten but then at least restored. What, then, is the best
workflow to convert a tiddler into a shadow tid? AFAIK there is no quick
button to do so (e.g changing the tiddler *type* to "shadow" or some such)
Ideas?
<:-)

[Mat]

Yes, I know, but thanks.


BTW, one way I have solved this before - but it's not appropriate in this
case - is to give the tiddlers cryptic titles that are unlikely to be
overwritten and then also use an extra "alias" field plus a viewtemplate to
show this alias as if it were the title etc.

Anyway, further ideas anyone?

<:-)

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

What do you mean by "generated" ? There's hmm ... 3 ways I can think of to
create tiddlers, one of which has tiddler-collision built-in. If you use
that (ActionCreateTiddlerWidget) then it will automatically make a new name
if there is an existing name.

The other approach would be to check for the existence of a tiddler, and
skip creating it, perhaps making a report so you can handle it per case.

-- Mark

[Mat]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Post by Mat
Safety checks rather than actual prevention of overwrite might, yeah if
the circumstances allow. Thanks again.
<:-)

Since you're filling in forms, the form could hide the "Submit" button if
the to-be-generated tiddler exists and replace it with a warning message.

-- Mark

[Mat]

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Since you're filling in forms, the form could hide the "Submit" button if
the to-be-generated tiddler exists and replace it with a warning message.

hehe, no it's not proper forms. Its typically just some table I throw
together with EditTextWidgets for direct setting of field values, which
"incidentally" creates the tiddler if it didn't exist already.

<table>
<$list filter="...">
<tr><td>{{!!title}}</td><td><$edit-text field=foo/></td></tr>
</$list>
</table>

...that kinda thing. Even if I make the titles show as links I can miss
their existance when there are multiple such editors and I quickly
copy-paste stuff into them, then overwrites can happen and I won't really
notice.

<:-)

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

You could put a nested list inside the current list that checks for the
prior existence and shows only link if it exists but shows the edit fields
if it doesn't.

-- Mark

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
Since you're filling in forms, the form could hide the "Submit" button if

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
the to-be-generated tiddler exists and replace it with a warning message.

hehe, no it's not proper forms. Its typically just some table I throw
together with EditTextWidgets for direct setting of field values, which
"incidentally" creates the tiddler if it didn't exist already.
<table>
<$list filter="...">
<tr><td>{{!!title}}</td><td><$edit-text field=foo/></td></tr>
</$list>
</table>
...that kinda thing. Even if I make the titles show as links I can miss
their existance when there are multiple such editors and I quickly
copy-paste stuff into them, then overwrites can happen and I won't really
notice.
<:-)

[Mat]

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
You could put a nested list inside the current list that checks for the
prior existence and shows only link if it exists but shows the edit fields
if it doesn't.

That's a neat idea. Will try to keep it in mind. :-)

I'm still hoping for some more general approach to protect tiddlers though.
It probably is shadow tids like Mario suggests, but I'm not sure how to
shadowify individual tiddlers in a simple way. There ought to be a simple
tiddler tool button for it, but then again, what does it mean that one
tiddler is shadowified....

<:-)

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Well, here's how you can shadowize your own tiddlers:

https://tiddlywiki.com/dev/#How%20to%20create%20plugins%20in%20the%20browser

Note that you don't see the result of your plugin saving until you reload.
It seems to me that it would fairly straight forward to make a javascript
"cheater" macro and button that could add new items to your "save-me"
Plugin. (cheater because macros aren't supposed to modify things, but there
you go).

But I don't think it will help as much as you think. So, something gets
written over, and you realize the mistake and can roll it back. BUT, what
about the new data that you had input that created the mistake? Don't you
still want that? That's why the catch-it-when-you-edit might be the better
all-up plan.

Have fun,
-- Mark

Post by Mat

Post by 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki
You could put a nested list inside the current list that checks for the
prior existence and shows only link if it exists but shows the edit fields
if it doesn't.

That's a neat idea. Will try to keep it in mind. :-)
I'm still hoping for some more general approach to protect tiddlers
though. It probably is shadow tids like Mario suggests, but I'm not sure
how to shadowify individual tiddlers in a simple way. There ought to be a
simple tiddler tool button for it, but then again, what does it mean that
one tiddler is shadowified....
<:-)

[passingby]

Yes, I know, but thanks. That's why I mentioned "generated" tiddlers,
where I will not notice when a tid is overwritten.
Apologies, my bad, did not read properly.

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Post by Mat
How can I ensure a tiddler is not overwritten?

I don't think you can beyond the single warning. Overwritten items are not
kept.

Post by Mat
I guess the second best would be to make it a shadow tid ...

Interesting idea. But would it really help? Reversion would be to some
standard thing? Wouldn't a versioning approach be more suited? Something
like ... http://twjam5beta.tiddlyspot.com/ a comprehensive versioning
system that got very little notice at the time the beta emerged.

[PMario]

Hi Mat,

I'd go with the shadow tiddler approach.

-m

[Mat]

Post by PMario
I'd go with the shadow tiddler approach.

Yeah, thanks.... but if tiddlers are individually shadowified then they're
not protected are they? I mean isn't a plugin at risk of being overwritten
if one uses the same title? Or is a full page reload required for it to
actually be saved as overwritten?

Plus... how would I shadowify tiddlers on an individual basis anyway
without a lot of effort?

BTW I just got an idea; would it be possible to shadowify only fields, i.e
the title fields!? I'm not sure this make sense at all but maybe it
triggers some ideas :-)


Thanks for input Mario!

<:-)

[PMario]

Post by Mat
Yeah, thanks.... but if tiddlers are individually shadowified then they're
not protected are they?

No ... In TW everything is a tiddler and therefore can be changed. .. Also
the core is a tiddler ... A big one :) but still a tiddler.

The only thing you get is the "overwrite warning" when you start editing.
...

Post by Mat
I mean isn't a plugin at risk of being overwritten if one uses the same
title?

Yes ... That's a feature, by design. ...

You can prepare stuff for someone else. But as soon as they want to modify
it, they should be able to do so. ... Even if they break it.

Post by Mat
Or is a full page reload required for it to actually be saved as
overwritten?

If you create a new plugin, a full page reload will be needed, that the
plugin will be activated. ... Overwriting a plugin TEXT tiddler will be
active immediately. Overwriting code tiddlers will need a restart.

Post by Mat
Plus... how would I shadowify tiddlers on an individual basis anyway
without a lot of effort?

You'd need some additional plugins, that need to do the handling.

Post by Mat
BTW I just got an idea; would it be possible to shadowify only fields, i.e
the title fields!?

No ... shadow-tiddlers only.

-m

[Mat]

PMario wrote:

I mean isn't a plugin at risk of being overwritten if one uses the same

Post by PMario

Post by Mat
title?

Yes ... That's a feature, by design. ...

But so it wouldn't make sense to shadowify individual tiddlers
then. Instead have to be put into some container tiddler (really a plugin).
This means I cannot create a tiddler and spontaneously decide to "protect"
it and then go on to deal with another tiddler.


If you create a new plugin, a full page reload will be needed, that the

Post by PMario
plugin will be activated. ... Overwriting a plugin TEXT tiddler will be
active immediately. Overwriting code tiddlers will need a restart.

Code = "application/javascript" type, or what does actually "code tiddler"
mean? Wikitext is text, right?


Thanks!


<:-)

[PMario]

Post by Mat
Code = "application/javascript" type, or what does actually "code tiddler"
mean? Wikitext is text, right?

wikitext is text. yes.

-m

[PMario]

Post by Mat
I mean isn't a plugin at risk of being overwritten if one uses the same

Post by PMario

Post by Mat
title?

Yes ... That's a feature, by design. ...

But so it wouldn't make sense to shadowify individual tiddlers
then. Instead have to be put into some container tiddler (really a plugin).

As I wrote. The only thing, that's possible at the moment is: get a
"warning" when you start editing.

The good thing is: If you mess up your changes, you can delete the
"content-tiddler" and the shadow tiddler will take over again.

Post by Mat
This means I cannot create a tiddler and spontaneously decide to "protect"
it and then go on to deal with another tiddler.

Protect it ... from what?

You can't protect a tiddler from other users. .. TW gives everyone the
freedom to change everything. .. and I personally think that's a good
thing.

-m

[Mat]

Guys, just a thank you for your input on the matter. Even if there doesn't
seem to be a spot-on solution, you have given me some ideas.

<:-)

[passingby]

Another idea is to completely forego putting titles in the title field. Put
them in caption field or a description field. And use timestamps as titles.
So two tiddlers of the same caption could exist side by side no problem.

Post by Mat
How can I ensure a tiddler is not overwritten?
I do not mean that someone would click the *edit* button etc but rather
myself *generating* a tiddler that accidently has the same ID (i.e title)
as an already existing tiddler.
Is it at all possible to protect a tiddler against this?
I guess the second best would be to make it a shadow tid, i.e so that it
can be overwritten but then at least restored. What, then, is the best
workflow to convert a tiddler into a shadow tid? AFAIK there is no quick
button to do so (e.g changing the tiddler *type* to "shadow" or some such)
Ideas?
<:-)

[TonyM]

Mat,

You ask "How can I ensure a tiddler is not overwritten" but if it is and
you know it has being and you can recover it then do you have what you need?

If so there are dozens of ways to to achieve this, within noteself all
versions are retained,
there is this plugin http://j.d.revisions.tiddlyspot.com/
There is a trails plugin

In some ways it is actually about your workflow. Your tiddler generation
tool can test for the existence of a tiddler first or using the correct
method to create tiddlers will not overwite but increment the title with a
number.

If you generate and import tiddlers the bundles plugin can test for
overwrite before import and keep track of all imports in the import bundle.

I worry about the number of cats that get "skinned" given tiddlywiki "has
so many ways to skin a cat".

Regards
Tony

Post by Mat
How can I ensure a tiddler is not overwritten?
I do not mean that someone would click the *edit* button etc but rather
myself *generating* a tiddler that accidently has the same ID (i.e title)
as an already existing tiddler.
Is it at all possible to protect a tiddler against this?
I guess the second best would be to make it a shadow tid, i.e so that it
can be overwritten but then at least restored. What, then, is the best
workflow to convert a tiddler into a shadow tid? AFAIK there is no quick
button to do so (e.g changing the tiddler *type* to "shadow" or some such)
Ideas?
<:-)

[Mat]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[TonyM]

Mat,

Perhaps your solution could be designed to clone any tiddler it is about to
replace to another name eg; $:/temp/overwritten/tiddlername (n)

Regards
Tony

Post by Mat

Post by TonyM
You ask "How can I ensure a tiddler is not overwritten" but if it is and
you know it has being and you can recover it then do you have what you need?

Thanks Tony. The thing is that in the use case I'm concerned with, I will
*not* know that it was overwritten. Plus the approach to *recover* rather
than to *prevent* overwriting in the first place is not the ideal
solution here. While I agree with e.g Mario that things should generally be
modifiable, I still want to be in control over circumstances that permits
or prevents modification.
But those are some interesting plugins! That jd plugin looks really useful
in the right context and I had missed or forgotten about the Trails plugin
<https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/commit/bc61f7eebf9cf810d9b226c65a7f49744bd0a803>
.
Thank you.
<:-)

[TonyM]

Mat,

Just an aside

Since you seem to be bulk creating tiddlers you may be interested in
this http://tobibeer.github.io/tw5-plugins/#make

a filter that allows to *create unique *or random tiddler titles

Regards
Tony

Post by Mat
How can I ensure a tiddler is not overwritten?
I do not mean that someone would click the *edit* button etc but rather
myself *generating* a tiddler that accidently has the same ID (i.e title)
as an already existing tiddler.
Is it at all possible to protect a tiddler against this?
I guess the second best would be to make it a shadow tid, i.e so that it
can be overwritten but then at least restored. What, then, is the best
workflow to convert a tiddler into a shadow tid? AFAIK there is no quick
button to do so (e.g changing the tiddler *type* to "shadow" or some such)
Ideas?
<:-)