Brame Investigations

[Cloud Writer]

Some converted wsp files online: http://tinyurl.com/6jaxv




fyi [CAP] [WASPC] [WSP] TPD David Fischer




Citizens Advisory Panel (CAP) for the Washington Association of
Sheriffs and Police Chiefs ("WASPC") Investigation Report and
Recommendations

Page 10

...The Citizens Advisory Panel thoroughly reviewed the evidence
presented and sought to uncover the good while dealing with the bad.
For example, Sergeant David Fischer showed both professionalism and
courage in 1996 by going beyond standard procedures to ensure Crystal
Brame's safety following a `911' call from her...

http://www.ci.tacoma.wa.us/cronews/WASPC_Committee_ReportOct4.pdf
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/police_dv/message/1615
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Crystal_Judson/message/7709




WASPC BOOK2
Page 328
4 Pages

TPD FISCHER INTERVIEW_BK2P328_4PP


WASHINGTON STATE PATROL
CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION DIVISION
Investigative Report

FILE TITLE David
Brame

DETECTIVE Sergeant Michael B. Haw
CASE NUMBER 03-004969
SUBJECT David Fischer Interview.

SYNOPSIS:

On October 3, 2003, Washington State Patrol (WSP) Detective Sergeant
Michael B. Haw and WSP Lieutenant Grant Hulteen interviewed Tacoma
Police Department (TPD) Officer David Fischer. Fischer provided
information regarding a domestic violence incident involving David
and Crystal Brame, and Fischer's subsequent phone conversation with
Crystal the same evening. The interview was not tape-recorded. <?>

DETAILS:

1996 Domestic Violence Incident

On October 3, 2003, Washington State Patrol (WSP) Detective Sergeant
Michael B. Haw and WSP Lieutenant Grant Hulteen interviewed Tacoma
Police Department (TPD) Officer David Fischer. Fischer was
interviewed subsequent to a letter Fischer sent to WSP Criminal
Investigation Division Commander Captain Brian Ursino (dated May 21,
2003) in which Fischer described an incident involving David and
Crystal Brame which occurred in 1996.1

Fischer said he has been Police Patrol Officer (PPO) with TPD for
fifteen years, and was assigned as an acting sergeant approximately
eighty-percent of the period between April 1994 and January 1997.
Fischer stated that sometime in 1996, but prior to December of that
year, (Fischer could not recall the specific date) he was assigned as
a temporary or acting sergeant with TPD, working the

Investigative
Report

Case Number: 03-004969
Sergeant Michael B. Haw
Page 2 of 4

graveyard shift.2 Fischer said he was contacted by the
communications center <?> and advised Crystal Brame had made a 911
call regarding a domestic dispute involving herself and her husband,
David Brame. Fischer said he called the Brame residence and contacted
Crystal, who was, ".. .almost hysterical". According to Fischer.
Crystal was crying, and advised Fischer that she just had a big
argument with David Brame, although Fischer could not recall <?> what
the argument was about, he thought it was about something minor. <?>

Fisher said he asked Crystal if David had physically assaulted her,
and she stated he had not. Fischer also asked Crystal if David had
threatened her and she denied this. Fischer stated Crystal told him
David had left the house with his weapons, and Fisher asked Crystal
if Brame had made threats to harm himself, and Crystal stated he had
not, and that she did not know what he [Brame] was going to do.
According to Fischer, Crystal said David Brame might have gone to his
parent's house.Fischer stated he believed at the time that Brame had
perhaps taken his weapons to separate them from Crystal, or maybe
Brame planned to spend the night elsewhere, in which case Brame would
need the weapons for work the next day. Fischer said Crystal seemed
very upset that Brame had taken the weapons.

Fischer said he advised Crystal he was going to have a Gig Harbor <?>
Police officer contact her residence to check on her and told her to
be sure to open the door so the officer could be sure she was not
injured. Although Fischer believed a Gig Harbor Police officer had
already been to the residence, he was not positive they had made
contact with Crystal. Fischer stated that although Crystal was
reluctant to talk to a responding Gig Harbor officer, he was "pretty
sure" Crystal agreed to talk to him/her if an officer responded.
Fischer stated Crystal told him several times not to tell anyone
about her calling 911 because she did not want to get David Brame in
any trouble at work.

Fischer said he gave Crystal his cell phone number, and told her to
call him if David Brame returned to the residence. Fischer stated he
probably kept detailed notes in his notebook of his conversations
with Crystal and Woodard; he was unable to locate the notebook.<?>

Fischer said that after he terminated the call to Crystal, he
immediately called the night shift duty lieutenant, Catherine Woodard
and advised her of the previously described scenario. Fischer said
Woodard responded with either, "I'll handle it" or, "I'll take care
of it." Fischer stated he then asked Woodard if she wanted him to
write a report regarding the incident and/or drive to Brame's
parent's house and check on Brame. According to Fischer, Woodard
responded negatively to both options.

Fischer said he did not tell anyone about the incident,<?> and never
heard anything about how the issue between David and Crystal Brame
was resolved. Because Fischer never heard anything else about the
issue, he assumed there had been no physical altercation between the
Brame's.

_____________________


Investigative
Report

Case Number: 03-004969
Sergeant Michael B. Haw
Page 3 of 4

Captain William Meeks alleged Hat Theft

When asked about his knowledge of the allegation against Captain
William Meeks regarding the theft of baseball hats during a warrant
service, Fischer stated that it was common knowledge in TPD that
Meeks collected baseball hats. After Meeks was accused of the theft,
the common perception within the department was that Brame could not
possibly promote Meeks beyond the rank of captain, and that Meeks'
career was now at a "Dead end".

Fischer stated everyone knew Brame and Meeks were close friends, and
that he [Fischer] now believed Brame knew he was going to kill
himself because he promoted Meeks to assistant chief a week before he
killed himself.3

Promotional Issues

During the interview, Fischer stated he was concerned that David
Brame had found his cell phone number which Crystal had written down,
or otherwise learned about his involvement in Brame's 1996 domestic
violence incident and would hold a grudge against him. Although
Fischer stated he was unaware of the depth of Woodard and Brame's
relationship in 1996, but when he learned of the incident involving
Brame and Woodard contacting the Lane and Patty Judsen residence in
Canterwood, he believed Brame and Woodard could have conspired to
prevent him from being promoted to sergeant.

Fischer said that in December of 1996, when Fischer was first on the
sergeant's list, Woodard asked him, "How would you feel if you were
passed up?" Fischer stated he responded, "I'd probably file a
grievance because I have much more experience as an acting sergeant,
received excellent evaluations while serving in that position, and
was next on the list." According to Fischer, Woodard reacted in a
surprised manner.
Fischer stated that in 1997, after he was passed up for promotion to
sergeant, he contacted the Local 6 leadership to discuss the
possibility of filing a grievance. The Local 6 president and vice
president were Robert Blystone and David Brame, respectively.
According to Fischer, Brame and Blystone advised him his grievance
would be difficult to prove, and the union executive board voted not
to provide representation to Fischer. Fischer stated he filed an
appeal with the Civil Service Board and represented himself, and the
Board eventually decided they had no jurisdiction in Fischer's case;
Fischer stated he sent letters to City Manager Ray Corpuz and the
City Council members, to no avail.

Fischer said that when Brame was a lieutenant, everyone in TPD knew
he was being groomed for

Investigative
Report

Case Number: 03-004969
Sergeant Michael B. Haw
Page 4 of 4

the chiefs position. According to Fischer, "Brame knew that I knew"
[Referring to Brame's 1996 domestic incident with Crystal], but Brame
never said anything to Fischer about the incident. Fischer said that
Brame once approached him and stated, "We're getting a new board
member," Fischer asked for clarification and Brame replied, "There's
nothing better that an employee scorned." [Referring to Fischer's
grievance]



1 See Addendum AK, Fischer's letter to Ursino.

2 This incident could be the same as the one described in Detective
Norm Conaway's and David Brame's notes documenting the alleged
domestic violence which occurred on September 28, 1996.

3 Brame promoted Meeks on Monday, April 21, 2003, and on Friday,
April 26, 2003, Brame killed Crystal and himself.

4. In December 1996, Fischer held the top position on the sergeant's
list which was due to expire in January of 1997. Sergeant Catherine
McCalpine was promoted instead of Fischer, even though she was behind
Fischer on the list and had much less experience as an acting
sergeant.___________________________________________________








RECEIVED MAY 28 2003 WSP - CID FIQ
05-21-03

David Fischer
Police Patrol Officer
Tacoma Police Dept.
930 Tacoma Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98402
(253) 573-****


Captain Brian Ursino
Washington State Patrol
PO 'Box 42600
Olympia, WA 98504

RE: Criminal Investigation / David Brame

Dear Captain Ursino,

I am writing this statement in regards to some information that I
have regarding the investigation of David Brame. No one has ever
contacted me regarding this incident so I just wanted to be sure that
you have all the information that I have knowledge of for your
investigation into the Brame case.

I have tried to determine when this incident occurred, but I am
unable to find any information or date of occurrence for this
incident. I believe it occurred some time in 1996 while I was working
for the Tacoma Police Department as a Temporary and/or Acting
Sergeant on the graveyard shift.

I received a call from LESA dispatch that there was a (911) call of a
domestic dispute from Crystal Brame at their Gig Harbor home. I
believe the Gig Harbor Police responded to the Brame's residence, but
they were unable to contact anyone? I got the Brame residence's phone
number from dispatch and called the residence.

Crystal Brame answered the phone and she sounded like she was upset
and crying. I told her who I was, and that I was calling regarding
the (911) call she had made. Crystal said she and David had gotten
into an argument, but I don't recall what, or if she said what the
argument was about. I asked her if she was okay, and if there was a
physical altercation between her and David. She said she was okay,
and that they just had an argument. She sounded very upset so I again
asked her if any kind of physical violence or assault had occurred.
Crystal again said that they had only argued and nothing else
occurred.

I asked her where David was, and she said he had left. She said she
was scared because he took his guns with him when he left. Crystal
said David did not make any kind of threats to her or himself, but
she was worried that he had taken his guns with him. I asked her if
she knew where David had gone. Crystal said she wasn't sure, but she
thought he might have went to his parent's house for the night.

Crystal said two or three times during the conversation, that she was
sorry and she didn't want to get David in any trouble at work. She
also asked me not to tell anyone that she had called because she
didn't want to get David into any trouble. I asked her why she
thought she would get him in trouble if all they did was have an
argument. She said she didn't know, but she knew David would be mad
at her if he knew she had called.

I told Crystal that I was going to have a Gig Harbor Police Officer
come to her house just to check on her and make sure she was okay. I
told her that an officer needed to contact her in person to make sure
she was okay, and that she needed to tell him what had happened.
Crystal agreed to cooperate and talk with the officer when he got to
her residence. I gave Crystal my name and department cellular phone
number, and I told her to call me if she needed anything else, or to
call (911) if it was an emergency.

I then called dispatch by phone and told them to send a Gig Harbor
Police officer to the Brame residence to contact Crystal and verify
that she was okay, and that there were no signs of injuries or a
physical domestic violence incident.

Immediately after hanging up with dispatch, I called the on-duty
night shift lieutenant who was Lt. Catherine (Crews) Woodard. I told
her exactly what had happened and what Crystal Brame had told me. I
also told Woodard that I had told dispatch to send a Gig Harbor
Police officer over to check on Crystal to make sure she was okay,
and to check for any sign of a physical domestic violence incident. I
told Woodard that David had left his residence and had taken his guns
with him. I told Woodard that Crystal thought David might be going to
stay the night at his parent's residence.

After telling Woodard everything that Crystal had told me, Woodard
thanked me for telling her about the incident. I told her everything
that I had done, and asked her if there was anything else she wanted
me to do (write a report, or check on David or Crystal)? Woodard
said, no and that she would handle it.

I never heard anything about the incident after talking to Woodard
that night, not from her or anyone else. I assumed that Woodard had
followed up on the incident and determined that it was just a verbal
dispute between Crystal and David, as Crystal had told me.

Prior to this incident, I was not aware of any domestic problems
between David and Crystal Brame. I was also not aware that the
Brame's were having domestic or marital problems at any time after
this incident up until the day after David shot and killed his wife
and himself.

I was also not aware that Catherine Woodard was a good friend of
David Brame's until after the Brame's deaths.

Now that I know that Catherine Woodard and David Brame were such
close friends (as Woodard herself has stated), and now that I know
that the Brame's had been having marital and domestic violence
problems, I believe I may have been "black balled" by Woodard and
David Brame as a result of my knowledge and handling of the Brame
domestic dispute back in 1996. I also do not know if Woodard ever
reported the incident between the Brames that I informed her about,
or if she had covered for David Brame by not reporting it to anyone
or following up on the incident with the Gig Harbor Police Department.

As I stated, I was working as a Temporary Sergeant in 1996 at the
time of this incident. Near the end of 1996 there was a permanent
Sergeant position opening, and I was number (1) on the Sergeant's
list at that time. I had been working as an Acting and Temporary
Sergeant for about (2) and a half years. All of my Sergeant's
probationary reports during that time stated that I was doing an
excellent job as a Sergeant. I also had far more experience as a
Sergeant than the other officers ranked behind me on the Sergeant's
list. Yet despite being ranked number (1) on the list, and all of the
experience as a Sergeant I had, and all of the excellent ratings I
received on my Sergeant probationary reports, I was passed over for
the permanent Sergeant's position. Instead, they promoted another
officer ranked number (2) on the Sergeant's list, who had far less
experience as a Sergeant than I had. The Sergeant's list expired a
few weeks later and I never made permanent Sergeant.

At the time that I was passed over for the promotion I assumed that I
was passed over because they wanted to promote a female to the
position, and I subsequently filed a grievance and appeal on the
basis of discrimination. However, after learning what I now know
about the Brame's domestic problems, and Catherine Woodard's
involvement and close friendship with David Brame, I believe that I
was intentionally passed over for promotion because I was "black
balled" by the administration, specifically by Brame and Woodard.

I recall an incident just prior to my rule of three interview for the
Sergeant's position, in which Catherine Woodard approached me and
asked me what I would do if I didn't get the promotion. I asked her
how could I not get the promotion since I was ranked number (1) on
the Sergeant's list, had extensive experience as a Sergeant, and my
high ratings on my Sergeant's probationary reports? Woodard said, you
just never know, anything can happen. She then again asked me what I
would do if it did happen, and I didn't get promoted. I told her I
probably would file a grievance or appeal. She asked me what would I
have to file a grievance about. I again explained to her, based on my
ranking on the Sergeant's list, experience compared to the other
candidates, and my excellent ratings on my Sergeant's probationary
reports, that I was the best qualified candidate for the position.

I thought it was odd that Woodard would ask me these questions at the
time. Now, in light of everything that has happened regarding the
Brame incident, and Woodard's involvement and close friendship with
David Brame, I believe that David Brame and Catherine Woodard used
their positions in the administration to influence the decision of
the promotion in which I was passed over for. I believe they abused
their positions of authority and had me passed over for promotion to
Sergeant because of that incident in which I had talked to Crystal
Brame about the domestic dispute between her and David.

Again, I can not recall the exact date of this incident, but the Gig
Harbor Police Department may have a record of the date of the
incident, and possibly more information on what Crystal Brame may
have told the officer that contacted her that night.

Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions or if
you need any further information from me.

Also, please forward this information to any other agency that is
involved with the investigation of this incident such as the
Washington Association of Sheriffs and Police Chiefs, Office of the
Attorney General, FBI, and any other agency involved.

Thank you. Sincerely,
David Fischer
Tacoma Police Department, PPO


It's not over til' the truth is fully known.

[Cloud Writer]

I WATCHED MR. WALTON ON TV AS HE REPORTED TO THE MASSES HIS
REPORT ON THE WASHINGTON STATE PATROL'S ADMINSITRATIVE <INTERNAL>
INVESTIGATION - COURTESY OF TVTACOMA, CHANNEL 12.

PLEASE FORGIVE THE CAPS. I AM NOT YELLING. BUT IN TRANSCRIBING SO
MUCH FROM TV I WAS TOO MENTALLY EXHAUSTED TO WORRY ABOUT UPPER AND
LOWER CASE SO SIMPLIFIED TO GET THE WORDS DOWN AND OUT.

HERE GOES...


MR. WALTON SAID PEOPLE THINK HE IS INVOLVED IN A COVER UP AND
PROTECTING CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS, BUT

"NOTHING


COULD BE FARTHER


FROM THE TRUTH."?

MR. WALTON SAID

"WE NEED TO BE MEASURED AND HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT WE DO FROM THIS
TIME
FORWARD"

(NOW THERE'S A LINE DV VICTIMS HAVE HEARD A MILLION TIMES!!!)

MR. WALTON SAID THAT HE WILL STAY AND ANSWER QUESTIONS "UNTIL YOUR
QUESTIONS BECOME SO REPEATITIVE THAT EVEN YOU ARE READY TO LEAVE."

HE SAID "MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO WOULD BE INVOLVED ARE NO LONGER CITY
EMPLOYEES"

HE SAID "*WASPC* DESCRIBED THE PROCESS WE HAVE IN PLACE AS
EXEMPLARY."

MR. WALTON SAID "THIS POLICY HAS BEEN TESTED AND IT WORKS."

<WHAT?>

HE SAID "THIS POLICY HAS BEEN TESTED AND IT WORKS."

A WOMAN SAID,
TESTED?
SHE HAD TO ASK, "WHAT DO YOU MEEEEAN BY THAT?"
MR. WALTON SAID,

(THOUGH I AM STILL TRYING TO MATCH THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION)

"..WE ARE MUCH MORE AWARE, COMMITTED, AND HAVE SYSTEMS IN PLACE THAT
WILL

ALLOW

THE POLICY TO BE SUCCESSFUL..."

"IS IT PERFECT?
I DON'T KNOW.
MAYBE ITS BEEN TOO SOON TO STRIKE THAT BALANCE
I KNOW IT'S BETTER... "

...NOW WE HAVE TO HAVE THE SYSTEMS IN PLACE TO KEEP US TRUE TO THAT
POLICY.

FROM


MYYYYYY


POINT OF VIEW


I THINK IT IS WORKING.

I HAVE NOTHING TO INDICATE WE ARE NOT DOING BUSINESS DIFFERENTLY."

<I CAN'T IMAGINE ANY POLICE DV VICTIMS SEE THAT AS ASSURANCE ENOUGH
TO COME FORWARD.>

HER QUESTION NOT BEING ANSWERED, SHE SAID TO MR. WALTON THAT OTHER
DEPARTMENTS HAVE SPECIFIC MEASUREMENTS TO INDICATE WHETHER THEIR
POLICY IS WORKING, LIKE - ARE MORE PEOPLE COMING FORWARD? DO YOU HAVE
SOME KIND OF TRACKING IN PLACE?

"DO YOU HAVE A TRACKING SYSTEM IN PLACE?"

MR. WALTON SAID,

I WOULD HOPE OUR DEPT IS COLLECTING THAT KIND OF DATA.

WE ARE TRYING ACROSS THE CITY TO BE MORE OUTCOME DRIVEN.
WE NEED THOSE SYSTEMS IN PLACE.
WE HAVE A WAYS TO GO.
WE'RE HEADED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

REMINDER:
THE QUESTION ORIGINALLY *WAS* - WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE PROGRAM IS
A "SUCCESS"? IT SORT OF GOT LOST IN THAT. TESTED? WITNESSES
WATCHED WHILE OFFICER RAHN, THE POLICY'S PUBLIC "TEST CASE," BEAT UP
HIS WIFE AND AND THE CITIZENS OF TACOMA WATCHED HIM BE ACQUITTED WITH
NO EXPLANATION. WE WERE NOT UPDATED ON HIS WIFE'S RESULTING
CONCUSSION, NOR WERE WE MADE PRIVVY TO THE "WORSE INJURIES" SHE WAS
SUBSEQUENTLY REPORTED TO HAVE.>


MR. WALTON SAID THAT THE INVESTIGATION WAS STOPPED BEFORE IT WAS DONE
BECAUSE OF "PUBLIC EXPECTATION THAT WE FINISH."

A WOMAN SAID "...AN ATMOSPHERE OF CORRUPTION" - WAS CHRISTINE
GREGOIRE RIGHT?

MR. WALTON SAID THAT HE WISHED THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WOULD HAVE
USED THE TERM "CULTURAL DEFICIENCIES"...

...ITS A MORE APT DESCRIPTION.

THERE IS NO CORRUPTION IN THIS DEPARTMENT.

THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF THAT."

CLOUD SAYS
THERE'S NO UNREDACTED, UNDESTROYED, OR UNALTERED EVIDENCE OF THAT."

A MAN SAID, JIM, YOU ALREADY HAD POLICIES FORBIDDING SEXUAL
HARASSMENT, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, AND ENCOURAGING THE REPORTING
MISCONDUCT. PEOPLE DIDN'T FOLLOW THEM.

MR WALTON SAID, "BLAH BLAHBLAH BLAH, BLAH BLAH..."


A MAN ASKED,

"IS THERE ANY REASON THAT YOU AND MAYOR BAARSMA WERE NEVER
INTERVIEWED FOR THE INVESTIGATION BY ANYBODY - WSP OR WASPC?

YOU WERE CITY MANAGER ASSISTANT FOR 13 YEARS.

YOU HELPED HIRE BRAME AND MAKE HIM CHIEF.

WHY WERE YOU NOT INVOLVED.

MR. WALTON SAID

"I CAN ONLY SPEAK FOR MYSELF.

I GUESS I WASN'T INTERVIEWED OR INVOLVED BECAUSE

THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE THAT I WAS."

THE QUESTIONER ASKED "THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE THAT YOU KNEW ANYTHING
ABOUT ANYTHING OR WHEN?

YOU NEVER HEARD ANY RUMORS PRIOR TO THE SHOOTING OF DAVID BRAME
COMING LITERALLY UNGLUED -

FALLING APART?

YOU KNEW NOTHING?"

MR. WALTON SAID "THERE WAS NOTHING




IN THE RECORD



PROVIDED TO THE WSP



OR THE WASPC


THAT IMPLICATED ME


IN ANYWAY.


THEREFORE



I WAS NOT A WITNESS



OR AN ACCUSED EMPLOYEE."


<0> <0>

MR. WALTON SAID "MY REAL HOPE IN GOING THROUGH ALL OF THESE
ALLEGATIONS


WASN'T TO PLACE BLAME

BUT TO LEARN HOW TO IMPROVE."



MR. WALTON SAID "WE KNOW WHO WE WORK FOR.
WE WORK FOR THE PEOPLE OF TACOMA."

MR. WALTON SAID


"...YOU CAN TRUST THE PEOPLE,

THE LEADERSHIP,

THE PROCESS THAT'S IN PLACE..."


A WOMAN SAID I KNOW YOU MET IN EXECUTIVE SESSION WITH THE ATTORNEYS
REPRESENTING YOU IN THE JUDSON LAWSUIT SO AREN'T CITIZEN'S GOING TO
WONDER WHAT LENS YOU ARE FILTERING THIS THROUGH?


MR. WALTON SAID, "IF YOU WRITE IT THAT WAY THEY WILL."


MR. WALTON SAID

I ENCOURAGE THE PUBLIC TO BE VIGILANT,


TO HOLD OUR FEET TO THE FIRE

BECAUSE THAT'S WHO WE WORK FOR..."

MR. WALTON SAID HE IS NOT GOING TO BE FIRING ANYONE.

MR. WALTON SAID "WE HAVE TO BE IN THE BEST POSITION TO DEFEND THE
INTERESTS OF THE PEOPLE OF TACOMA ON THE LITIGATION"

A WOMAN ASKED, "WHAT CAN YOU SAY TO ASSURE THE PUBLIC THAT THIS WILL
NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN." THAT MR. WALTON SAID "I CAN ASSURE THE PUBLIC
THAT THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAINTHEIMPORTANT <SIC>THING

FOR ME

IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE


PAST

BUTTHEQUESTION IS
WHAT DID YOU

DO

ABOUT IT?"



MR. WALTON SAID

"I THINK IT IS TRUE TO SAY

IN THE PAST

THE MANAGEMENT THAT DEFINES THE CULTURE OF THE TACOMA POLICE
DEPARTMENT



MIGHT


HAVE COME UP



SHORT



IN TERMS OF MEETING THE STANDARD OF EXPECTATIONS."


<0> <0>


A WOMAN ASKS IF THIS BLACKED OUT NEGATION OF CHARGES IS HOW POLICE
OFFICER AND OTHERS ARE INFORMED THAT THE INFORMATION THEY TOOK THE
DIFFICULT RISK OF BRINGING FORWARD - IF THIS IS HOW THEY ARE LEARNING
THAT THEIR EFFORTS HAVE RESULTED IN A LIST OF "UNSUSTAINED"?

SHE ASKED, IS THIS HOW THE PEOPLE WHO CAME FORWARD ARE NOTIFIED?

MR. WALTON SAID, "I DON'T KNOW.

GOOD QUESTION.

I HAVEN'T INITIATED ANYTHING ON THAT

I NEED TO CLOSE THAT LOOPHOLE

I NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO REINFORCE THAT BEHAVIOR

THAT SAME WOMAN SAID - THE NUMBER OF SEXUAL ISSUES - HARASSMENT,
PROMOTIONS FOR SEX... DID THE CITY FIND THAT WAS NOT AN ISSUE?


MY CITY MANAGER PAUSED, SHIFTED, SAID

UH, A UH

HE SAID I THINK UH IN
THE UH RECOMMENDATION...

CAMERA SHUTS OFF.

IT'S A WRAP FOLKS.

[Scooby Doggy Dog]

Post by Cloud Writer
PLEASE FORGIVE THE CAPS. I AM NOT YELLING. BUT IN TRANSCRIBING SO
MUCH FROM TV I WAS TOO MENTALLY EXHAUSTED TO WORRY ABOUT UPPER AND
LOWER CASE SO SIMPLIFIED TO GET THE WORDS DOWN AND OUT.

That's ok. Most of your posts, theories and or ramblings read as if
you're mentally exhausted anyway. A lame excuse none the less but
it's yours and it appears you'll be sticking to it. Now, I look
forward to not reading the 100 or so posts all from you that I'm sure
this thread will develop into.

[Cloud Writer]

[Tacoma] Citizens deserve to know about their employees' deeds

THE NEWS TRIBUNE
Sunday, October 17th, 2004 12:01 AM (PDT)

Even if you've paid only scant attention to the news lately you're
aware that The News Tribune is in a dispute with Tacoma City Hall over
a Washington State Patrol investigation.

The issues are fairly complex, so let's try to break it down in
question-and-answer format.

What's the investigation about?
It's a follow-up to the initial criminal investigation after Police
Chief David Brame shot and killed his wife, Crystal Brame, then
himself 20 months ago.

How is this investigation different?
The first was a criminal investigation. It found nothing that
warranted criminal charges against any individual, but disclosed what
the patrol chief and the attorney general called a "culture of
corruption" within the Tacoma Police Department. This latest
investigation probed noncriminal misconduct allegations that surfaced
in the first inquiry. The allegations involved 32 current or former
city employees, including some police officers.

What were some of the allegations?
We're not sure, because they won't tell us. But the state attorney
general cited several possibilities. Among them: that police officers
knew of alleged crimes but didn't act on them; that an assistant chief
knew the chief physically threatened his wife but didn't report it;
that one officer and perhaps others might have been promoted based on
inappropriate sexual activity; and that favoritism might have been
involved in police disciplinary cases.

When was the investigation turned over to the city?
Nearly six months ago.

What's happened since?
City Manager James Walton spent those months looking over 104
allegations. Walton found seven allegations were "not sustained" and
53 allegations were "unfounded," and he "exonerated" employees of
misconduct involving 32 allegations.

He "sustained" 12 findings of wrongdoing and has made a final ruling
on one matter, in which a city employee apparently shared confidential
medical information with his wife.

Though he won't be specific we believe Walton has notified employees
in 11 other matters that he believes they violated city policy or
procedure. We believe he is scheduling hearings to let them challenge
his findings. What does the Tribune want released? We want specific
information about the 12 cases of misconduct and the names of the
parties involved.

Is the city going to release it?
No. Officials apparently will give us only copies of the letter
telling the employee or former employee about the finding of
misconduct, which might contain few specifics. They apparently intend
to redact even the names of the guilty employees.

Why won't they turn over the information?
They say they can't, that collective bargaining agreements and past
practices make it impossible.

Are they right?
We don't think so. The Public Disclosure Act and case law, we believe,
entitles citizens to know when misconduct occurs, what it was, what
discipline was meted out and the name of the employee. State law
overrides any agreement the city has with police unions.

Any other reasons?
An assistant city attorney, Jean Homan, prepared a memo for the city
manager on the legal aspects of releasing the information. She notes
that the law says permission for access is to be broadly interpreted
and exemptions are to be narrowly construed. Then she advises the
opposite and looks for reasons not to release the findings.

Who besides the city manager is fighting to keep the material secret?
Police unions, private lawyers hired by the city, and the lawyer for
former City Manager Ray Corpuz, among others. (Nine lawyers argued
against disclosure in a recent court hearing.)

What's the bottom line?
We might have to sue to get the information. The city's lawyers and
the city manager have told us that's the only way we're going to get
the material.

The bottom line for us is we think the city manager and any employees
found guilty of misconduct work for the citizens. We believe citizens
are entitled to know when an employee breaks the rules, specifically
what happened, who the employee is and what the punishment is. That's
the only way citizens can determine if government is behaving
appropriately.

The city's bottom line appears to be: We work for the police unions
and the bureaucracy. Our job is to keep whatever secrets we can. If
you don't like it, sue us.

I have one last question: How can the manager (paid with taxpayers'
money) believe it's OK to keep the details secret from his employers
(the taxpayers) when he determines that city employees (also paid by
taxpayers) have engaged in misconduct? Dave Zeeck: 253-597-8434

***@thenewstribune.com
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/columnists/zeeck/story/4120007p-3886278c.html

[Cloud Writer]

MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING
by and between
Tacoma Police Management Association and the City of Tacoma

In order to strengthen citizen confidence for an objective, impartial
and unbiased administrative investigation to be conducted by the
Washington State Patrol (WSP) at the request of the City of Tacoma
concerning matters identified by the State Attorney General in a
letter dated November 14, 2003, to Pierce County Prosecutor Gerry A.
Home, and to ensure that the contractual provisions of the Tacoma
Police Management Association, Local 26 (TPMA) regarding employee
rights and internal investigations are honored and upheld, the TPMA
agrees with the City of . Tacoma (City) to the following Memorandum of
Understanding (MOU).

The City of Tacoma and TPMA, agree to the following provisions for the
Washington State Patrol Administrative Investigation:

1. Definition: The WSP administrative investigation is defined as
the investigation of allegations identified during the WSP Criminal
Investigation and which the City Manager determines may lead to
economic sanctions, including but not limited to dismissal, demotion
and/or suspension if the allegation being investigated is sustained.
In those cases when a TPMA member is the subject of multiple
allegations and at least one of the allegations (or some combination
of them) could lead to economic sanctions, the City Manager will
determine whether the entire investigation should be handled by the
WSP, or whether some of it should be handled as a bureau
investigation, as described below.

2. Any allegation not reasonably expected to rise to the level of
economic sanction shall, upon determination by the City Manager, be
investigated by the Tacoma Police Department as a bureau level
investigation. Any additional allegation discovered during the course
of the investigation not reasonably expected to rise to the level of
economic sanction shall, upon determination by the City Manager, be
investigated by the TPD as a Bureau level investigation.

3. The City Manager will designate a TPD employee(s) to act as a
point of contact with the WSP and/or the City Manager. The contact
person will provide assistance as requested by WSP and/or the City
Manager by providing requested information and clarification of
practices, policies and contract provisions, especially regarding
employee rights as specified in Article 24 of the TPMA.

Page 2

4. Once the investigation is complete, it will be turned over to the
City Manager for review and disposition.

5. If the TPMA believes the WSP interviewer is violating the
bargaining agreement during an interview, it may state its objection
on the record in the interview to alert the WSP; provided that any
such objections shall not unreasonably delay the interview process
(see Article 24). If the TPMA believes that its objection was not
properly addressed during the course of the remainder of the interview
and/or if the TPMA has other ongoing concerns about the alleged
contract violation, a meeting between the City Manager or designee and
the TPMA will be held within 24 hours, or as soon as reasonably
possible, to discuss and attempt to resolve the issue. Following such
meeting between the City Manager or designee and the TPMA, the City
Manager may contact WSP in order to address any actual or alleged
contract violations.

6. .The WSP will follow all provisions of the negotiated bargaining
agreement and/or established past practices between TPMA and the City
of Tacoma,

7. The City's agreement with the WSP will provide that, unless so
required by law or court order} no investigative information
concerning TPMA members will be released during the investigation.
Once the investigation is completed, the City will follow the present
practice regarding sustained complaints in accordance with applicable
law. All documents and recordings created by this investigation shall
be the sole property of the City, with no copies being retained by the
WSP.

8. Nothing in this MOU will supersede Article 24 - (employee rights)
of the TPMA and the City of Tacoma Agreement or the TPD Manual of
Rules and Procedures, Policy 2.09.001. The parties further agree that
this MOU is non-precedential, and will not be utilized by either party
in the future with regard to collective bargaining, future
investigations, allegations of skimming or sub-contracting bargaining
unit work, or any such matters related thereto.

9. Violation of this MOU, the collective bargaining agreement and/or
an established past practice between the City and the TPMA by the City
and/or the WSP will be subject to the grievance procedure in the
collective bargaining agreement between the TPMA and the City.

Page 3

10. Unless otherwise noted, this agreement will remain in effect until
June 30, 2004, except in those matters involving grievances,
arbitration issues or matters involving the Civil Service Board,

11 The foregoing provisions axe intended to resolve all disputes
existing between the parties regarding the investigation as of the
effective date of this MOU. Accordingly, the TPMA will take the
following actions: (1) the TPMA will withdraw the unfair labor
practice charges filed with the Public Employment Relations Commission
on or about March, 4, 2004, alleging a refusal to bargain and
skimming; (2) the TPMA will notify the PERC that the parties have
reached a settlement in PERC mediation case number 18134-M-04-6028 and
that this case need not be advanced to interest arbitration; and (3)
the TPMA will voluntarily dismiss its civil suit seeking a declaratory
judgment and injunctive relief (Pierce County Superior Court Case No.
04-2-04517-2).

12. Notices of investigation and 48 hour notices shall be reissued in
accordance with the collective bargaining agreement between the City
and TPMA.

Agreed to by TPMA and the City this 31st day of March, 2004


TACOMA POLICE MANAGEMENT ASSOCIATION

<SIGNATURE>
Mark Langford, President

<SIGNATURE>
Alan Roberts, Vice President


CITY OF TACOMA

<SIGNATURE>
James L. Walton, City Manager

<SIGNATURE>
Woodrow E. Jones, Jr., Acting Human Resources Director

[Cloud Writer]

The comments of Citizens Advisory Panel member:

BY BRUCE PETERSEN

I am very proud to have been a part of the Citizens Advisory Panel,
and as a native Tacoman to give some additional measure of my time to
this city in a time of need.

I am equally proud to have served with such a fine group of fellow
citizens from very diverse walks of life. What a dedicated group to
have stuck together when it wasn't always easy, or popular, to see our
charge through.

In reading and re-reading our final report and recommendations on the
Washington Association of Sheriffs and Police Chiefs, I realize what a
powerful document this is.

Clearly, the conclusions and recommendations made by our panel
represent an effort to honestly review and comment on a very
incomplete investigation into the hiring and promotion of David Brame
by the WASPC investigators.

What was really dismaying – but not surprising to the panel – was the
reaction of City Council members during our presentation before them.
From mostly polite arrogance to downright rudeness by one
councilmember, the theme of the evening was to neutralize our
findings.

The highlight of the evening for me was the sincere comments made by
Police Chief Don Ramsdell. True healing is taking place in our police
department.

The last line of our report sums up what needs to happen in this city:
"When the citizens of Tacoma perceive that there has been full
disclosure, trust in our City Government will begin to be restored."

Bruce Petersen is a member of the South Tacoma Neighborhood Council.

Excerpted from:
[WA] Four panel members comment on Brame hiring report
Citizens panel found reason for dismay, encouragement
Sunday, October 24th,
News Tribune

[Cloud Writer]

City's culture-cutting plans artlessly counterproductive
JEN GRAVES; THE NEWS TRIBUNE
Sunday, November 14th, 2004 12:01 AM (PST)

Excerpt:

In this millennium, Tacoma is known for three things: snipers, a
murderous police chief and art. This season, the city has deep cuts to
make, and the arts have to be included. But considering the city's
badly managed properties, faulty computer systems and who knows what
other bureaucratic fat, perhaps it's worth re-examining the
disproportionately large size of the cuts to the arts, considering
that art is one of the few things that is cheap and has worked. So
far, the cost to fix the computers is more than $2 million. Legal fees
stemming from the David Brame situation add up to some $800,000. The
total proposed cut to the arts is $764,583. Maybe the city could spend
money on what is going right if the mistakes didn't cost so much.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/ae/columnists/graves/story/4180321p-3957523c.html

[Cloud Writer]

[WSP] EXCERPTS FROM CITY OF TACOMA'S EMAIL BACKUP MAN

OR

WHERE OH WHERE DID THOSE EMAILS GO OH CITY OF TACOMA?


THESE ARE EXCERPTS FROM THE 33 PAGE WASHINGTON STATE PATROL
INVESTIGATION INTERVIEW WITH THE MAN WHO RUNS TACOMA'S EMAIL SERVER
AND BACKUP - BEING ASKED ABOUT THE MISSING EMAIL BACK UPS AROUND THE
TIME OF TACOMA POLICE CHIEF DAVID BRAME SHOOTING CRYSTAL.

EXCERPTS FROM STATEMENT OF CITY OF TACOMA'S BARRETT GEE:


Q. Okay. Barrett, can you describe for me - what is your job
description here at the utilities?
A. Basically, uh, I am on a help desk and I also administrate the
City's backup system.
Q. Okay. What is your official title?
A. Computer systems programmer.



PAGE 10 NEAR BOTTOM:
Q. Okay. So after 90 days, three months, the tape will expire?
Automatically expire?
A. Uh, yes, it's an automatic process. Not the tape itself expiring,
uh, the image, the backed up image, that data file, it expires.
Q. Okay. And those dates that we asked for, February 26th through
May 15th, what did you do with those images?
A. Once I found the images that, uh, were required, based on
request, I ran a BPEXP date command, which set the retention or
expiration date on the dates which were available to 2038 - year 2038.
Q. Okay. Okay. Also, have you had problems with - and I'm
specifically talking about some dates that we asked for that are
missing.
A. Without a doubt.
Q. And how long have you had problems with the system?
A. It's kind of been ongoing.



BOTTOM OF 12:
Q. Because I know we talked about that the system is backed up at one
location and it's also backed up at another. Is that correct?
A. Yeah. Basically-



PAGE 15
<Snip>
Q. Okay. If you're gone - say you take a week or two off, who takes
your position? Who handles the -
A. Uh-
Q. - day-to-day activities?
A. Day-to-day, that would be Terry Person and Doug Walters.
<Snip>
Q. Okay. Who has remote access to net backup?
A. And see, that's that question where I said I didn't say it - say
it like that the last time.
Q. Right.
A. Uh, again, it's kind of hard to answer. And I'll, I'll basically,
answer it like ~ I don't think anybody but me or Ron would dial in to
access net backup. And it's not really Ron's job. I am probably - uh,
let's see - the only one, uh, that really would go in



PAGE 16 TO MID PAGE 17 -
Q. Okay. And I'm going to show you this, that we've looked at just
before. We asked for these particular dates: the 26th of February to
May 15th. And according to this email - this is from Jimmy Farmer, it
shows here that we're missing some dates of February 24th -
A. Um-hmm.
Q. - 25th, 28th; March 4th, March 5th; April 26th; May 3rd, and May
10th through the 12th and the 14th. But we don't have the restores.
Can you tell me why we don't have those?
A. On those days -
Q. Let's take them one at a time, now.
<Snip>
Q. Do you have it documented as to why or what happened on that day,
the 24th of February - and the 25th?
A. Not every day.
Q. On these particular two days, do you have it documented - do you
know for sure it was a tape error?
A. Yes. I would say, yes. Is it documented? That's where I might have
erred in preparing for you.
<Snip>
Q. - so that we have that. And what about the 28th of February? What
happened there?
A. I'm not quite sure. I'm not quite sure. Um, again - and this is -
I hate to say it's all in one - but it, it was a tape error or a tape
unavailable...



Page 18:

<Snip>
Q. Okay. What about March 4th and 5th?
A. Again, I would need to take you to my desk and show you that
information.
Q. Okay. Do you have that documented as exactly what happened on
those dates?
A. I'll say yes and I'll say no.
Q. Okay. And what is your documentation that you have?
A. Documentation would be the email notes. That, that I received -
Q. That you received? Is the backup - I mean, if the backup has
failed, is that logged somewhere?
A. Yes. But, again...
<Snip>
Q. Okay. And April 26th?
A. Which was a Saturday?
Q. Correct. Why no backup there?
A. God, I hate to generalize it, but I would say tape error.
Q. And I don't want you to generalize. I -
A. Tape error.
Q. - I want you to know -
A. Tape error.
Q. Do you have that?
A. Can I prove that at this point in time? No.



PAGE 19:
Q. Okay. There's no documentation to it?
A. No. Every once in a while - this is not - nothing made up -
anything made up - excuse me - I'd say 98 percent of the time I'll
get an email message that there are errors where it just does not
come to me. Where could it be documented in my - the event viewer,
the system log or application log. Unfortunately, we don't have that
log.
Q. Because?
A. Somebody deleted it from prior to this even happening.
Q. Okay. You said somebody deleted it versus the other one is you're
saying that backup deleted it?
A. Um-hmm. A human person actually would have deleted uh, you know,
the event, event logs, they fill up.
Q. Okay.
A. You can either save them or you can delete them.
Q. Okay. And where are those logs held?
A. Uh, if you save them, they're probably held on the server, which
you - which, uh, it pertains to.
Q. Separate from the exchange server?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Who is in charge of deleting those?
A. On our backup server - uh, unfortunately is Ron.
Q. Okay.
A. Can you stop for a minute?
Q. Yes, we can.
A. Let me run to the little boy's room.



Page 20:

Q. Okay. And before we got off tape, we started talking about some
dates that we had missing images or emails to. And we were talking
about April 26th.
A. Um-hmm.
Q. And my question to you was to why we didn't receive any emails for
that day or you didn't have a backup for that date.
A. And I stated first, general, probably tape. Uh, without, honestly,
lacking evidence, I'd still say tape...
<Snip>
Q. Do you recall receiving an email? (Cloud note: Automatically
generated, notifying him of a backup error)
A. No, I don't. No. I have looked and looked and looked 'cause I
know how bad it looks. But, again, there are instances where that
email doesn't work based on an error. What type of error?
<Snip>



PAGE 21
Q. Okay. On April 26th, do you know what day - why we're talking more
about April 26th -
A. Um-hmm, yes.
Q. - than most of the other days - when did you learn of the event
that happened? The murder/suicide.
A. Front page, April 27th.
Q. Did anybody call you on the 26th?
A. No.
Q. Did you have a remote access to the system on that day; do you
recall?
A. Would not tell a lie. I don't recall, but probably did. I'm trying
to make sure stuff runs.
Q. Right.
And why do you normally - do you normally remotely access the system
on a daily basis? On the weekends?
A. Don't tell the bosses, but, yeah. I ain't supposed to, but I have
a job to do. Uh, it's secure in feeling of a system, uh, that I
manage. It was important to me for other reasons that I stay on top
of this as best I could...



PAGE 24
Q. Okay. Does anybody have the knowledge or ability to do anything to
the system, as far as do they have admin rights? Remote admin rights?
A. See, that encompasses a lot without - you know, without really
knowing totally what you were going to say. That just does.
Q. Okay. With these problems you've had with the tape errors and all
that, what have you done to correct this reoccurring problem?
<Snip>



<CLOUD ASKS WHAT THE HELL JUST HAPPENED TO THE QUESTION?>


PAGE 25
<Snip>
DETECTIVE BAMBINO: - on that. So I'm just going to ask you again on
this. What date did Reggie or Detective Chapman request that you start
making backups of the emails?
A. You mean not making backups, but retaining the backups?
DETECTIVE BAMBINO: Retaining the backups; correct.
A. I'm going to be honest with you. I wasn't the lead on that. I
don't keep dates. I don't know.
<Snip>


Page 26
<Snip>
DETECTIVE BAMBINO: Okay. And if it didn't back up down there, would
that Blat system send you an email or notify you?
A. 98 percent of the time it would. There are errors and I don't know
all the errors where it can fail.

<Snip>

PAGE 27
DETECTIVE BAMBINO: Okay. Did you get any notification or email from
the Blat system or any other system on the dates that Reggie had
talked about: February 24th, 25th, 28th -
A. Some of those may -
DETECTIVE BAMBINO: - 26th?
A. Some of those dates - some of those dates, yes; not all of them.
February twent- -uh, March -- was that April 26th?
DETECTIVE BAMBINO: April 26th.
A. Believe me, I have looked. If I could go in there and manufacture
one - and that's the wrong thing to say (laughs) -
DETECTIVE BAMBINO: Right.
A. - I'd manufacture it. But, uh, to the best of my knowledge, uh,
no.
<Snip>



PAGE 28-29
<Snip>
DETECTIVE BAMBINO: Since you had this time frame of this date to
this date, you saw that there were seven days that were gone?
A. Um-hmm.
DETECTIVE BAMBINO: I'm trying to get a visual picture.
A. Basically, uh, what you see when you bring up the backup archive
restore menu -you see the three months, that timeline. You see it
right then and there. All you have to do is move the little bar back
and forth. Uh, we actually, uh, saw it, uh, initially (inaudible
words, unintelligible) earlier dates; February 9th or something like
that. Uh, we saw it earlier. Uh, I don't know if he remembers but
I've told him -yes, Reggie, I've told you these dates are missing. To
cover me, I sent them to my boss.
DETECTIVE BAMBINO: Did you send that in email form or -
A. Uh, yes.
DETECTIVE BAMBINO: Okay.
A. Now, have you seen that? And I'm asking Reggie that.
Q. No, I have not.
A. Yeah, I think Ron, Ron may have that out.
Q. Did you send a copy to Ron too?
A. No.
<Snip>


<0> <0>

[Cloud Writer]

Subj: Breaking News -- Sustained allegations in Brame probe
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 12:24:34 -0800
From: "Takhoman" <***@harbornet.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------
According to several City of Tacoma sources there will be no sustained
allegations against any current city employees in the Washington State
Patrol Brame murder/suicide Administrative Investigation.

However a combination of nine charges of employee misconduct have been
sustained against former Tacoma City Manager Ray Corpuz and former Tacoma
Police Chief Catherine Woodard with one sustained allegation against former
Human Resources Director Phil Knudsen the sources said.

The specific charges were not revealed. None of the three accused could be
reached for comment.

During last night's city council meeting as to when the investigation would
be complete Tacoma City Manager Jim Walton stated, "I hope to discuss that
with the council in executive session after this meeting". Whether that
discussion took place or not has not been revealed to The New Takhoman.

Walton has stated in the past that he would not reveal any of the
allegations of employee misconduct sustained or not.

"In the long run Watergate didn't work out for Nixon so what makes Walton
think this Bramegate whitewash cover-up, even in the short run, will work
out for him?" asked one of the city sources.

[C***@yahoo.com]

Subj: Breaking News -- Fifth lawsuit filed in Brame
murder/suicide
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:34:18 -0800
From: "Takhoman" <***@harbornet.com>
-----------------------------------------------------------

The fifth lawsuit was filed yesterday against the City of
Tacoma in connection with the April 26, 2003 David Brame
murder/suicide by Syliva Boskovich, the alleged 1988 Brame
rape victim.

According to Boskovich's claim filed against the City on
June 24 she was raped by David Brame in 1988 when she was
29 years old. She is now 44.

Her claim in part reads, "Through the recent coverage of
Chief Brame's murder of Crystal Brame in April of 2003, Ms.
Boskovich has now discovered facts which establish the
following causes of action against the City of Tacoma and
the Tacoma Police Department under 42 U.S.C. § 1983,
violations of substantive due process rights to access to
our courts, and for deprivation of procedural due process
rights to access to our courts and for conspiracy to
obstruct justice under 42 U.S.C. §1985(2).

Shortly after the rape, Ms. Boskovich filed a complaint
with the Tacoma Police Department. She was interviewed by
two investigators. It was her understanding that she was
following the appropriate procedure and she did not realize
that the police department was only conducting an internal
investigation - an internal investigation which never made
it to the desks of any Pierce County prosecutors, or
outside law enforcements, despite the fact that a City
police officer, David Brame, had been accused of a felony.
On three occasions, she met with investigators. One of the
meetings was tape recorded. Ms. Boskovich told the
investigators of Brame's confession in front of police
officer Reggie Roberts. Officer Roberts was interviewed by
the investigators. A few months later, Ms. Boskovich
received a letter from Chief Ray Fjetland of the Tacoma
Police Department. The letter stated, in part:

The Police Department's Internal Affairs staff has
completed its investigation into your complaint. The
official finding is that the complaint is not sustained.

Officer Brame admitted the sexual contact with you, but
denied using force or coercion.

The investigation in this case has been extremely thorough.

In the aftermath of the Brame shooting in April and May,
2003, Ms. Boskovich learned for the first time a number of
shocking revelations. She learned that the investigators
believed that Brame had forcibly raped her. The Department,
in appropriately limiting the investigation to an internal
investigation, as opposed to allowing and requiring an
external investigation, committed the tortious actions
outlined above. In April and May 2003, Ms. Boskovich
discovered the facts which give rise to the above outlined
causes of action and, as such, all statute of limitations
were tolled until such time.

Ms. Boskovich had no means of reasonably discovering the
actions of the City of Tacoma and its employees/agents
until after the facts came out following the Brame murder
on April 26, 2003.

As a result of the City of Tacoma and/or its agents' and/or
employees' actions, Ms. Boskovich has suffered injustice,
post-traumatic stress disorder, and a violation of her
statutory and constitutional rights. She has been treated
for post-traumatic stress disorder by Richard Jensen, Ph.D.

To date, Ms. Boskovich has incurred $8,800.00 for
treatment."

Other lawsuits filed to date in the aftermath of the murder
of Crystal Brame include:

The Family of Crystal Brame for wrongful death.

Tacoma Police Detective Mary Herrmann for sexual harassment
by David Brame.

Former Tacoma Police Assistant Chief Ray Roberts for loss
of wages and benefits.

New Takhoman Publisher John Hathaway and his wife for death
threats and intimidation by Tacoma Police Union #6
President Patrick Frantz.

A sixth lawsuit is expected shortly from former Tacoma
Human Resources Director Phil Knudsen.

[Tim Fierro]

In layman's terms, it means that now that David Brame is dead, I can go
after the city and blame them. For a civil case, all I have to do is prove
that it might have happened and he won't be there to deny it. Since a good
attorney can make a civil case out of the portion of proving a rape could
have happened, then that same attorney can sue the city and probably make it
convincing that a city was responsible for an improper investigation.

I.E.: I think I can make some money out of this.

Yeeeeehaaawwwww!!!!




<***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Subj: Breaking News -- Fifth lawsuit filed in Brame
murder/suicide
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:34:18 -0800
From: "Takhoman" <***@harbornet.com>
-----------------------------------------------------------

The fifth lawsuit was filed yesterday against the City of
Tacoma in connection with the April 26, 2003 David Brame
murder/suicide by Syliva Boskovich, the alleged 1988 Brame
rape victim.

According to Boskovich's claim filed against the City on
June 24 she was raped by David Brame in 1988 when she was
29 years old. She is now 44.

Her claim in part reads, "Through the recent coverage of
Chief Brame's murder of Crystal Brame in April of 2003, Ms.
Boskovich has now discovered facts which establish the
following causes of action against the City of Tacoma and
the Tacoma Police Department under 42 U.S.C. § 1983,
violations of substantive due process rights to access to
our courts, and for deprivation of procedural due process
rights to access to our courts and for conspiracy to
obstruct justice under 42 U.S.C. §1985(2).

Shortly after the rape, Ms. Boskovich filed a complaint
with the Tacoma Police Department. She was interviewed by
two investigators. It was her understanding that she was
following the appropriate procedure and she did not realize
that the police department was only conducting an internal
investigation - an internal investigation which never made
it to the desks of any Pierce County prosecutors, or
outside law enforcements, despite the fact that a City
police officer, David Brame, had been accused of a felony.
On three occasions, she met with investigators. One of the
meetings was tape recorded. Ms. Boskovich told the
investigators of Brame's confession in front of police
officer Reggie Roberts. Officer Roberts was interviewed by
the investigators. A few months later, Ms. Boskovich
received a letter from Chief Ray Fjetland of the Tacoma
Police Department. The letter stated, in part:

The Police Department's Internal Affairs staff has
completed its investigation into your complaint. The
official finding is that the complaint is not sustained.

Officer Brame admitted the sexual contact with you, but
denied using force or coercion.

The investigation in this case has been extremely thorough.

In the aftermath of the Brame shooting in April and May,
2003, Ms. Boskovich learned for the first time a number of
shocking revelations. She learned that the investigators
believed that Brame had forcibly raped her. The Department,
in appropriately limiting the investigation to an internal
investigation, as opposed to allowing and requiring an
external investigation, committed the tortious actions
outlined above. In April and May 2003, Ms. Boskovich
discovered the facts which give rise to the above outlined
causes of action and, as such, all statute of limitations
were tolled until such time.

Ms. Boskovich had no means of reasonably discovering the
actions of the City of Tacoma and its employees/agents
until after the facts came out following the Brame murder
on April 26, 2003.

As a result of the City of Tacoma and/or its agents' and/or
employees' actions, Ms. Boskovich has suffered injustice,
post-traumatic stress disorder, and a violation of her
statutory and constitutional rights. She has been treated
for post-traumatic stress disorder by Richard Jensen, Ph.D.

To date, Ms. Boskovich has incurred $8,800.00 for
treatment."

Other lawsuits filed to date in the aftermath of the murder
of Crystal Brame include:

The Family of Crystal Brame for wrongful death.

Tacoma Police Detective Mary Herrmann for sexual harassment
by David Brame.

Former Tacoma Police Assistant Chief Ray Roberts for loss
of wages and benefits.

New Takhoman Publisher John Hathaway and his wife for death
threats and intimidation by Tacoma Police Union #6
President Patrick Frantz.

A sixth lawsuit is expected shortly from former Tacoma
Human Resources Director Phil Knudsen.

[C***@yahoo.com]

Post by Tim Fierro
In layman's terms, it means that now that David Brame is dead, I can go
after the city and blame them. For a civil case, all I have to do is prove
that it might have happened and he won't be there to deny it. Since a good
attorney can make a civil case out of the portion of proving a rape could
have happened, then that same attorney can sue the city and probably make it
convincing that a city was responsible for an improper investigation.
I.E.: I think I can make some money out of this.
Yeeeeehaaawwwww!!!!

Hi Tim,

You mention good attorneys "proving a rape could have happened" after
the man is dead, but

David Brame -> admitted <- the rape.

I haven't seen anything in the last more than year and a half that
disputes that. He said he did it and that he was sorry. That's agreed
upon. What happened with that information will be an issue in the
upcoming court events.

There are conflicts of who knew what when and what they did or did not
do subsequent to finding out.

The "what if" of how this rape should have been handled is
far-reaching...

If he had been convicted could x have happened?
If he had been fired would x, y, and z have still been harmed?
If he hadn't been chief...

The "IF" wildcard. Every single thing alleged to have happened after
the rape has this card in it's spread. Necessarily.

(To the flamers reading this, no you cannot just say he's dead and drop
it.)

So as legal accountability goes, there are issues about what the
responsibility is of agencies that KNOW of it's personnel engaging in
criminal acts against persons but take no action. We know the Brame
case didn't invent accountability, liability, or culpability.

We have to just wait and see what the courts ultimately decide. They
will be presented with more info than we have access to - some old
withheld info, and some new gathered-for-trial info.

My main hope is that the case is not decided by default on
technicalities... but that it is decided on what is known and the law.
Cloud

[C***@yahoo.com]

I just came back and read what I had replied to you. Maybe no one has
made an issue of whether or not a rape happened YET - but how could
they NOT attack that in THIS case. They will. So my apologies. An
attorney for the victim will go for that first. They are supPOSED to
go for that I think. Will just have to wait and see what happens

[C***@yahoo.com]

City's early findings lay blame on Corpuz
SEAN ROBINSON; The News Tribune
Last updated: December 15th, 2004 02:40 AM

<James Walton to Ray Corpuz>
..."Your inability to meaningfully participate in the review
process prevents me from being fully informed on the various
issues, completing my investigation and reaching reasoned final
conclusions," Walton wrote. "Therefore, I have determined that
I am unable to make any final findings/conclusions in reference
to these allegations against you."...
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/4330450p-4107677c.html

[pikgitar]

City's early findings lay brame blame on Cor-puss
and here's to you Mrs.ROBINJENKINSON; The News FibTune
Last dated: December 15th, 2004 02:40 AM by ShelleyMarieKerslake
<James Walton to Ray Corpuz>
..." Hey old buddy, your inability to meaning-fully participate in

the redacted-review

process totally perverts me from being "fully" inflamed on the

various

issues, and precludes completing my investigation and reaching a

reasonable final

conclusion," says Walton, as he continues, "Therefore, I am

determined that

I am unable to make any final findings/conclusions in reference
to these allegations against you....pretty cool, huh Ray? So - - Why

don't we meet at the ELGauchos for some drinks and then head for the
hot-tub and diddle Robin? I'll do the driving, though. Gotta follow
the rules."

hotub://w-w-w.thenewFib-tune.com

[pikgitar]

All in all, the one person who is never referred to and yet knew
everything from way back many years ago is always missing from
everything that gets posted and besides I've seen all this stuff and
still have copies of everything and guess what ? the city knows that
unless and until there is a public trial where all the truth comes out
no one will ever be held accountable and probably not even then because
too many people are to afraid of those in power to do what really needs
to be done, and I am afraid that even I fit into that catagory. However
I do intend to make sure that Shelley Marie Kerslake gets her just
deserts even if it takes me the rest of my life to bring such to
fruition. She (SHELLEY MARIE KERSLAKE, Tacoma's cover-up queen) is the
missing key to the whole Crystal Tragedy but then I would suppose
that's a forgone conclusion seeing as how her daddy is the HIGHEST
PAYED City of Tacoma employee. But mark my words I WILL BRING SHELLEY
DOWN ! I am just surprized that you, DG Cloud, have yet to really
grasp the significance of what I am saying and have been saying for
almost two years now. But then I guess I should remember that you have
ADHD and some form of tunnel vision that won't let you comprehend what
should be so apparent. Or is it me that has ADHD and tunnel vision ???
Then again I know it's like some cop asking you to recall everything
that's missing from your home right after you have been burglarized.
That is unless you're the Corpuz's and the burglary is staged. It's
hard to see what isn't there but take a good close look at who is on
the scene that's missing :) It is just like the Geo. Harrison song
PIGGIES. What they need's a DAMN GOOD WACKING. Keep on keepin' on
'cause it's been a long time comin' and it'll be a long time gone. hee
hee I miss you :) hee hee don't you miss me ???? come on - admit it,
even if I use words like PIGGIE and don't have much respect for cops
(ok,I admit it, I don't have any). I may not have respect for them but
I definately do fear them. Especially the ones in Tacoma. Even my
uncle-in-law-X-assistant-chief-[liar]-James Knutsen who was at those
wife swapping parties alluded to in some WSP files somewhere. But I
know we've been down this road befor and there is no glory at its
bitter end. So take my hand if you don't know where you're going. I
understand, you see I've lost the way myself. Let's not take that old
road. It leads to nowhere. We must return befor the clock strikes
twelve.

[Tim Fierro]

Post by pikgitar
She (SHELLEY MARIE KERSLAKE,
Tacoma's cover-up queen) is the missing key
to the whole Crystal Tragedy but ....

There was no Crystal tragedy.

The only thing that happened was that a man in Gig Harbor shot his wife and
then killed himself.

Unfortunately for the citizens of Tacoma, the chief of police was the upset
shooter in this situation. It is a sad situation that a woman can push a
guy to the edge like that to which the poor soul (David Brame) felt the only
recourse to end this bad relationship was to shoot her and himself in the
process.

There are always 2 sides to a story. When it is publicity hounds trying to
cash in, you will get the most outrageous side because it can sell
newspapers, and cause gossip for even more headlines. Somewhere in the mix,
the real story can't be found as the participants are not alive to tell the
real story. Only David Brame can/could know what kind of person Crystal was
in the home environment that we on the outside are not privy to.

All other accounts (stories) that are written; are still hearsay, rumors,
and gossip.

[C***@yahoo.com]

Hi Tim,

As I read back over your posts it appears that your main concern is who
is going to be held financially responsible. This is what I hear ->
they are both dead & no one can find out the truth so all the money and
time spent on investigations and trying to find accountability are
witch hunts... wasting taxpayer money. That David was just a guy who
was pushed too far by his abusive wife. In one breath you say NO ONE
can KNOW because they are both dead, but repeatedly set up a scenario
of an abused man when talking about this situation - a man who could
just take no more! You have said prior: "He had his limit that day."

In the past you also posted:

"It is always sad when another man has been subject to so much abuse in
his marriage, that the only way to stop it is to kill the woman."

Tim, the ONLY WAY? And again you said it yesterday:

"It is a sad situation that a woman can push a guy to the edge like
that to which the poor soul (David Brame) felt the only recourse to end
this bad relationship was to shoot her and himself in the process."

So you see killing Crystal as the ONLY way to deal with what you
clearly believe MUST have been her excessive abusiveness - That she
CAUSED him to commit murder. You ALSO (most amazing of all I think)
believe then he had no choice.

You don't like the talk of possible payouts because you say "we already
lost a cop because of this mess", it was Crystal's parents fault if
it's anyone's, and (Wait. There's more!) - David was BRAVE ENOUGH to
kill Crystal - you feel that not every man has what it takes to DO that
- but David does.

You said:
"It took a brave man to kill his wife and then turn the gun on himself.
Not too many men would have the guts to follow through, but with his
training, he was able to take care of the situation in the way he knew
how."

And in a following post you said:
"Brave, in the sense that you would have to have some form of (courage,
self control, eagerness, and possibly sadness); that would make one do
this deed."

I responded to you then pretty much like I feel now. Here's the link:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/tacoma.general/msg/0f754241a56421d4?dmode=source

[pikgitar]

You are too stupid to even respond to Timmy dumb-shit.....in fact
you're of the same mentality as David-the-coward-Brame was.

[C***@yahoo.com]

Post by pikgitar
You are too stupid to even respond to Timmy dumb-shit.....in fact
you're of the same mentality as David-the-coward-Brame was.

Ya KNOW though pikgitar, in re-reading this short branch of the thread
(tim>me>you) I'm realizing that it's not about Tim. Tim actually just
is voicing what he probably really thinks. The bigger implication is
that (I shudder) there are men who think this way from the jump. NOT
when they are losing their jobs. NOT when they are under
investigation. NOT when they are trying to figure out how to get rid
of the old to bring in the new. NOT in a predicament. It's not about
David, Crystal, or Tacoma tax payers. It's really about being aware of
the prehistoric/primal man that still lurks. If it bothers you, kill
it. Life is simple. That it is courageous, like a trapped warrior, to
kill and then even destroy yourself.
I was responding to Tim, but it's bigger than him. He just said it out
loud. There are probably a lot more men who understand David's actions
but think it best to not say anything - having learned the rules of
negotiating as an inwardly furry creature in the world of those who
walk fully upright. They, probably to the disgust of those further
along on the evolutionary chain, are most likely many.
In some weird way now I feel almost grateful that Tim reminded me of
the animal. The animal needs to be considered if the animal is amongst
us. It's better to realize this degree of acceptance to wife-killing I
guess <geez> than to pretend it doesn't exist. It does. All over the
world. Today. The boundary lines of the United States doesn't erase
that.
Sorry Tim for talking about you like a third party here. Maybe this
reply should have been to you. If you read this - thanks for the
insight and please reconsider the root of what you believe to be sure
that's where you want to stand. No one can tell anyone what to
believe. I would just ask that you consider the implications.
Sigh. In the meantime, I will have to give it a few days to see how
the lesson in reality effects my thinking. It's still at the door
because I don't know where to offer it a seat.

[Tim Fierro]

Post by C***@yahoo.com
Sorry Tim for talking about you like a third party here.
Maybe this reply should have been to you. If you read
this - thanks for the insight and please reconsider the root
of what you believe to be sure that's where you want to stand.

Sorry about a late reply, I just got back from a vacation in Vegas.

But, the point is that another side of the picture has to be at least given
a view. There are personal issues involved so taking only one side without
ever knowing the other side is just wrong. My comments are harsh sometimes,
but that is just me.

Example:

I believe like Bill Maher (Of the late Politically Incorrect) in that the
men who committed the 911 attacks were brave men. Now does the average
American want to hear this, of course not. But it must be said, IMO. Those
men did an act against their "perceived?" enemy and made us pay with
American lives. Would we as Americans find some men to commit this type of
horrendous act when no other means of fighting was available? They planned,
they executed, they succeeded; not any different than if an American plan
was planned, executed, and succeeded. We dropped bombs in WWII that
destroyed cities and killed populations of people; were we coward, or brave
in stopping our enemy from proceeding with more war? Devil's Advocate time
here; would you go to a veteran from WWII and tell him he was a coward for
being a part of dropping the bomb? or would you say he was brave to do it?
Double edged sword that cuts in many discussions.

Just this time it was our enemy getting us instead of us getting them.
Please nobody here try to make anything out of this message that I condoned
the action, but am responding in general to views that might seem callous
thinking, to throwing the topic around and review it if we had been the ones
doing this deed. That gives you a bit more of my thinking process.

So my point is that to take a comment at face value, you have to look at the
whole picture yourself and see what you see is the truth, your impression of
a possible truth, or a truth being imposed upon you.

But to automatically call David Brame a coward without knowing all the facts
FROM HIM, then we can all guess at the the truth of what happened and try to
make sense of it. I like to play Devil's Advocate sometimes because it
makes people (and myself) think about the discussion instead of jumping on a
bandwagon because it might be a fun ride. Maybe not fun, but the ride that
we as readers are being driven to because that is the story that is given.

Quite simple though; if you said that an apple is the best fruit in the
whole world, but you have never tasted an orange; I would say your logic is
flawed. Taste all the fruit and then your basis would have merit.


Oh, and to that PigGuitar or whatever your name was, do you have a problem
with me? I may not like all the postings that CW posts, but at least CW
posts without flames within.

[pikgitar]

No, TImmy, I have no problem with you.
Quite the contrary;
I enjoy your posts and I even think alot like you do about many things,

however,
I know way more about some things in Tacoma than anyone would care to
know and I (and the ones close to me) have been serverely traumatized
by certain "things" and people regarding DB and others in the TPD.
I have personal knowledge that dates back to before the year that DB
became a cop and it was my uncle-in-law that signed the papers that
allowed DB to become a cop.
I grew up around all those that run the city of tacoma and I venture
that I have a few years on you and though that may just be a crutch I
lean on, it also gives me the ability to see how things got to the
point they are now.

So go right ahead and call me names
(pretending you don't know what my handle is )
if it makes you feel good.
I am smart enough to realize that you really don't know a damn thing
about the whole situation regarding the TPD and the City's corrupt
government.

pikgitar

[Tim Fierro]

Post by pikgitar
I enjoy your posts and I even think alot like you do about many things,
however,
I am smart enough to realize that you really don't know a damn thing
about the whole situation regarding the TPD and the City's corrupt
government.
pikgitar

The city of Tacoma may have it's problems, and reviewing procedures is quite
fine. The line I draw is when some rally is being pushed upon the public
that some children of a dead person should get millions out of a city.

The practices and internal workings of how the City of Tacoma runs it's
government is one thing, but it still should cast no doubt that a city
employee shooting his wife on his own time in his own city where he lives;
is not a City of Tacoma issue. The City of Tacoma however does have the
right to review how things may be modified internally through investigations
of it's structure.

Maybe you do know a bit more on how the City's government has progressed
over the years, but can you answer me this one question?

Should the City of Tacoma pay out money because a man killed a woman in a
different city?

This has always been the crux of my statements in this newsgroup.

Sorry about the PigGuitar or whatever it was; I didn't want to go back and
try to find the name you use and copy it for that post. But now I see it
above with this quote that it is 'pikgitar'. I was close. :-)



Tim

[Dr. Feelgood]

Post by Tim Fierro

Post by pikgitar
I enjoy your posts and I even think alot like you do about many things,
however,
I am smart enough to realize that you really don't know a damn thing
about the whole situation regarding the TPD and the City's corrupt
government.
pikgitar

The city of Tacoma may have it's problems, and reviewing procedures is
quite fine. The line I draw is when some rally is being pushed upon the
public that some children of a dead person should get millions out of a
city.
The practices and internal workings of how the City of Tacoma runs it's
government is one thing, but it still should cast no doubt that a city
employee shooting his wife on his own time in his own city where he lives;
is not a City of Tacoma issue. The City of Tacoma however does have the
right to review how things may be modified internally through
investigations of it's structure.
Maybe you do know a bit more on how the City's government has progressed
over the years, but can you answer me this one question?
Should the City of Tacoma pay out money because a man killed a woman in a
different city?
This has always been the crux of my statements in this newsgroup.

I finally understasnd your reasoning Timmy boy.

Let's see if I can come up with a similir situation to explain it????


Two guys rob a bank at gunpoint in Tacoma, killing 4 civilians in the
process, hop into a high powered motor vehicle and head for highway16 with
the police in pursuit. When they cross the narrows Bridge the cops should
shut down the chase and return to collecting the bribes they were after from
Tacoma drug dealers when the bank robbery interrupted them? The Bank robbers
are now the problem of Gig Harbor. Even if the bank robbers are off duty
Tacoma cops and a warning call had been made to the City Manager and other
city officials days before the bank robbery letting the officials know the
plan to rob the bank.

RIGHT?

You just don't get it Timmy Boy. The location of the crime has nothing to do
with ultimate responsibility. City officials had been warned repeatedly
about Brame and chose to turn a blind eye to the problem. The "City" of
Tacoma had been warned about Brame by their own system many times, even
before he was hired on as a rookie cop when he failed his mental evaluation
test. There must be at least some responsibility accepted by Tacoma city
officials responsible for taking no action when action was clearly called
for. Would any action those officials could have taken saved the life of
Crystal or even David Brame? No one will ever know that because NO ACTION
WAS TAKEN!

Post by Tim Fierro
Sorry about the PigGuitar or whatever it was; I didn't want to go back and
try to find the name you use and copy it for that post. But now I see it
above with this quote that it is 'pikgitar'. I was close. :-)
Tim

[Spiderman]

Post by Dr. Feelgood
Let's see if I can come up with a similir situation to explain it????

You couldn't. Not even close.

Post by Dr. Feelgood
Two guys rob a bank at gunpoint in Tacoma, killing 4 civilians in the
process, hop into a high powered motor vehicle and head for highway16 with
the police in pursuit.

Brame didn't kill anybody in Tacoma and didn't try and make an escape. Your
bullshit is just that.

Post by Dr. Feelgood
When they cross the narrows Bridge the cops should
shut down the chase and return to collecting the bribes they were after from
Tacoma drug dealers when the bank robbery interrupted them?

TPD can go back to taking footprints in flower beds when you claim you were
robbed in your sate subsidy housing project for the poor.

Post by Dr. Feelgood
The Bank robbers
are now the problem of Gig Harbor.

David Brame comitted his alledged crime in GH Einstien. Try and follow along
would you?

Post by Dr. Feelgood
Even if the bank robbers are off duty
Tacoma cops and a warning call had been made to the City Manager and other
city officials days before the bank robbery letting the officials know the
plan to rob the bank.

The City was never warned David was going to off his wife. Crystals parents
claim they knew yet they did nothing about it. Sue them Einstien.

Post by Dr. Feelgood
RIGHT?

NO WRONG!

Post by Dr. Feelgood
You just don't get it Timmy Boy. The location of the crime has nothing to do
with ultimate responsibility. City officials had been warned repeatedly
about Brame and chose to turn a blind eye to the problem.

Warned repeatedly?

Post by Dr. Feelgood
The "City" of
Tacoma had been warned about Brame by their own system many times, even
before he was hired on as a rookie cop when he failed his mental evaluation
test.

He also passed these tests too. Learn something about what you speak of
before flapping those lips Feelslittlegirls. He got in like MANY City
employees do. If you are going to bitch and whine like the perv you are at
least call it for what it is.

Post by Dr. Feelgood
There must be at least some responsibility accepted by Tacoma city
officials responsible for taking no action when action was clearly called
for. Would any action those officials could have taken saved the life of
Crystal or even David Brame? No one will ever know that because NO ACTION
WAS TAKEN!

Ask Crystal's parents what they did What did the GH police do regarding the
DV calls? NOTHING. Are they being sued?

[Dr. Feelgood]

"Spiderman" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@news.supernews.com...

I would call you a cock sucker but I heard you are trying to quit after
your last arrest for inappropriate sexual conduct in a public location. I
also hear you were almost caught trying to urinate on the grave of one of
your stalking victims recently. Is this true? If so you really are much
sicker than I thought before.

Post by Spiderman

Post by Dr. Feelgood
Let's see if I can come up with a similir situation to explain it????

You couldn't. Not even close.

Post by Dr. Feelgood
Two guys rob a bank at gunpoint in Tacoma, killing 4 civilians in the
process, hop into a high powered motor vehicle and head for highway16 with
the police in pursuit.

Brame didn't kill anybody in Tacoma and didn't try and make an escape. Your
bullshit is just that.

Post by Dr. Feelgood
When they cross the narrows Bridge the cops should
shut down the chase and return to collecting the bribes they were after

from

Post by Dr. Feelgood
Tacoma drug dealers when the bank robbery interrupted them?

TPD can go back to taking footprints in flower beds when you claim you were
robbed in your sate subsidy housing project for the poor.

Post by Dr. Feelgood
The Bank robbers
are now the problem of Gig Harbor.

David Brame comitted his alledged crime in GH Einstien. Try and follow along
would you?

Post by Dr. Feelgood
Even if the bank robbers are off duty
Tacoma cops and a warning call had been made to the City Manager and other
city officials days before the bank robbery letting the officials know the
plan to rob the bank.

The City was never warned David was going to off his wife. Crystals parents
claim they knew yet they did nothing about it. Sue them Einstien.

Post by Dr. Feelgood
RIGHT?

NO WRONG!

Post by Dr. Feelgood
You just don't get it Timmy Boy. The location of the crime has nothing to

do

Post by Dr. Feelgood
with ultimate responsibility. City officials had been warned repeatedly
about Brame and chose to turn a blind eye to the problem.

Warned repeatedly?

Post by Dr. Feelgood
The "City" of
Tacoma had been warned about Brame by their own system many times, even
before he was hired on as a rookie cop when he failed his mental

evaluation

Post by Dr. Feelgood
test.

He also passed these tests too. Learn something about what you speak of
before flapping those lips Feelslittlegirls. He got in like MANY City
employees do. If you are going to bitch and whine like the perv you are at
least call it for what it is.

Post by Dr. Feelgood
There must be at least some responsibility accepted by Tacoma city
officials responsible for taking no action when action was clearly called
for. Would any action those officials could have taken saved the life of
Crystal or even David Brame? No one will ever know that because NO ACTION
WAS TAKEN!

Ask Crystal's parents what they did What did the GH police do regarding the
DV calls? NOTHING. Are they being sued?

[Scooby-Doggy-Dog]

For a guy (and I use the term loosely) who complains about vulgarity
and how this is a family newsgroup you sure don't seem to mind floating
terms like cock sucker out there. Is it ok for you but nobody else?

[Dr. Feelgood]

Post by Scooby-Doggy-Dog
For a guy (and I use the term loosely) who complains about vulgarity
and how this is a family newsgroup you sure don't seem to mind floating
terms like cock sucker out there. Is it ok for you but nobody else?

Nope! Just thought I'd finish this year with what this NG seems to crave.
Why would the chief group stalkers butt buddy who has posted more profanity
than all other users combined ponder why anyone else posted a few actual
facts in colorful language? Why don't you just go and sexually intercourse
yourself to death you sick bastard? You even have the nerve to claim CW has
some hidden agenda and only post negative stuff when the only thing remotely
positive about you is the results from your AIDS test. You have not posted
anything positive to this or any of the other NG's you post to in years, so
for you to make that claim just shows how stupid you really are.


FYI: I have enjoyed playing with you and your butt buddy Glenn since the two
of you chose to use new alias names. Playing the two of you off each other
and making you think I thought the postings under both aliases were from you
was a blast.

[Spiderman]

"Dr. Call Me a Cock SuckerFeelgood" <***@comcast.net> wrote in
message news:X7hBd.261774$***@attbi_s03...


End of the month and drunk off of your welfare check already
Feelslittlegirls? Or is it a medication problem?

[Dr. Feelgood]

Post by Spiderman
End of the month and drunk off of your welfare check already
Feelslittlegirls? Or is it a medication problem?

None of the above you convicted stalker! Why do you insist on calling me
your childish names when you are the one on the pedophile watch list?

BTW: How close did the cops actually come to catching you in the cemetery?
In case you are still unaware they know it was you.

[Spiderman]

Post by Dr. Feelgood
I would call you a cock sucker but I heard you are trying to quit after
your last arrest for inappropriate sexual conduct in a public location. I
also hear you were almost caught trying to urinate on the grave of one of
your stalking victims recently. Is this true? If so you really are much
sicker than I thought before.

Classic Dr Feelslittlegirls. Notice his indignation and attempt to disguise
the fact he wrote the above profanity. Please Feelslittlegirls show some
more of your class act. Tell us all the touching story when in grade school
you called a boy a "niger". Or maybe you can repeat that touching story in
which you add dog feces onto you children's cookies. My favorite though is
your wife flopping on her back for everyone in you apartment complex and
your cries of anguish when your support payments go in the boyfriends
stomach. Yes, classic welfare Mike Feelslittlegirls tales. All there
compliments of Google and Feelslittlegirls. Jabber on little monkey.


Spidey

[Dr Feelgood]

Post by Spiderman

Post by Dr. Feelgood
I would call you a cock sucker but I heard you are trying to quit after
your last arrest for inappropriate sexual conduct in a public location. I
also hear you were almost caught trying to urinate on the grave of one of
your stalking victims recently. Is this true? If so you really are much
sicker than I thought before.

Classic Dr Feelslittlegirls. Notice his indignation and attempt to disguise
the fact he wrote the above profanity. Please Feelslittlegirls show some
more of your class act. Tell us all the touching story when in grade school
you called a boy a "niger". Or maybe you can repeat that touching story in
which you add dog feces onto you children's cookies. My favorite though is
your wife flopping on her back for everyone in you apartment complex and
your cries of anguish when your support payments go in the boyfriends
stomach. Yes, classic welfare Mike Feelslittlegirls tales. All there
compliments of Google and Feelslittlegirls. Jabber on little monkey.
Spidey

I didn't try to disguise a damn thing you perverted moron! Looks like a
classic perverted Glenn Hansen change the subject and call others names that
describe your own actions ploy. Everyone can see you approve of adultery,
child molestation, stalking, bribery & pedophilia in general your perverted
SOB! You have even bragged about abusing neighborhood pets so I guess your
willing to do just about anything disgusting and claim it's ok for you to do
so. The fact you were caught trying to file a false disability claim and had
to pay them back to avoid prosecution is clear. The money I live on is
EARNED Social Security pay I actually worked for and paid into for 30 years.
The Apartment complex where I live is not a state run welfare project like
you claim. I pay my full rent without any assistance of any kind. I pay my
own bills on time myself and I do not bribe government officials to avoid
paying property taxes like some scumbag perverts do. I do not stalk
government officials and private citizens like you do either.

You and your abusive child killing friend have been posting gross profanity
in this newsgroup for years so stop acting offended when I state my opinion
of you in language you are very familiar with.

Dr Feelgood


"Terrorist are terrorist. It doesn't matter if they are blowing themselves
up in suicide
bomb attacks, flying hijacked airplanes into buildings, mailing deadly
diseases in
envelops or posting personal attacks and lies in internet newsgroups.
Terrorist are
terrorist."
Dr Feelgood (2001,2002,2003,2004,2005)

[Spiderman]

Post by Dr Feelgood

Post by Spiderman

Post by Dr. Feelgood
I would call you a cock sucker but I heard you are trying to quit after
your last arrest for inappropriate sexual conduct in a public location. I
also hear you were almost caught trying to urinate on the grave of one of
your stalking victims recently. Is this true? If so you really are much
sicker than I thought before.

Classic Dr Feelslittlegirls. Notice his indignation and attempt to disguise
the fact he wrote the above profanity. Please Feelslittlegirls show some
more of your class act. Tell us all the touching story when in grade school
you called a boy a "niger". Or maybe you can repeat that touching story in
which you add dog feces onto you children's cookies. My favorite though is
your wife flopping on her back for everyone in you apartment complex and
your cries of anguish when your support payments go in the boyfriends
stomach. Yes, classic welfare Mike Feelslittlegirls tales. All there
compliments of Google and Feelslittlegirls. Jabber on little monkey.
Spidey

I didn't try to disguise a damn thing you perverted moron!

You started with the profanities Dr Feelslittlegirls. Be a man once in your
life and admit you were wrong using such language or forever be known as the
cock sucker you really fantasize to be.

Post by Dr Feelgood
Looks like a
classic perverted Glenn Hansen change the subject and call others names that
describe your own actions ploy. Everyone can see you approve of adultery,
child molestation, stalking, bribery & pedophilia in general your perverted
SOB! You have even bragged about abusing neighborhood pets so I guess your
willing to do just about anything disgusting and claim it's ok for you to do
so. The fact you were caught trying to file a false disability claim and had
to pay them back to avoid prosecution is clear.

Google shows this to be the story of your life in your own words. Found
constantly in your posts are refernces to "adultery,
child molestation, stalking, bribery & pedophilia". I bet you get all hot
and sweaty writting and then dreaming about this stuff as you type.

Post by Dr Feelgood
The money I live on is
EARNED Social Security pay I actually worked for and paid into for 30 years.

All you welfare rats say the same thing. You collect disabilty yet can
collect for charities and take people grocery shopping.

Post by Dr Feelgood
The Apartment complex where I live is not a state run welfare project like
you claim. I pay my full rent without any assistance of any kind.

Government funds from the working people of America subsidizes your rent.
Yeah you pay the full rent they charge you and we pay the rest. Get over it.
It is all okay.

Post by Dr Feelgood
I pay my
own bills on time myself and I do not bribe government officials to avoid
paying property taxes like some scumbag perverts do. I do not stalk
government officials and private citizens like you do either.

I rent so I have only federal taxes to sweat and as far as stalking a serch
of Google shows you to be the TG stalker extrodinaire. You have posted
personal information ie; addresses and admitted to drive bys of these folks
homes.

Post by Dr Feelgood
You and your abusive child killing friend have been posting gross profanity
in this newsgroup for years so stop acting offended when I state my opinion
of you in language you are very familiar with.

You have done a good job describing all your problems using a third party.
You should have bought medications and not a 'nicer' car.

Post by Dr Feelgood
Dr Feelslittlegirls
"Terrorist are terrorist. It doesn't matter if they are blowing themselves
up in suicide
bomb attacks, flying hijacked airplanes into buildings, mailing deadly
diseases in
envelops or posting personal attacks and lies in internet newsgroups.
Terrorist are
terrorist."
Dr Feelgood (2001,2002,2003,2004,2005)

[Dr Feelgood]

Post by Spiderman

Post by Dr Feelgood

Post by Spiderman

Post by Dr. Feelgood
I would call you a cock sucker but I heard you are trying to quit

after

Post by Dr Feelgood

Post by Spiderman

Post by Dr. Feelgood
your last arrest for inappropriate sexual conduct in a public
location.

I

Post by Dr Feelgood

Post by Spiderman

Post by Dr. Feelgood
also hear you were almost caught trying to urinate on the grave of one

of

Post by Dr Feelgood

Post by Spiderman

Post by Dr. Feelgood
your stalking victims recently. Is this true? If so you really are much
sicker than I thought before.

Classic Dr Feelslittlegirls. Notice his indignation and attempt to disguise
the fact he wrote the above profanity. Please Feelslittlegirls show some
more of your class act. Tell us all the touching story when in grade school
you called a boy a "niger". Or maybe you can repeat that touching story

in

Post by Dr Feelgood

Post by Spiderman
which you add dog feces onto you children's cookies. My favorite though

is

Post by Dr Feelgood

Post by Spiderman
your wife flopping on her back for everyone in you apartment complex and
your cries of anguish when your support payments go in the boyfriends
stomach. Yes, classic welfare Mike Feelslittlegirls tales. All there
compliments of Google and Feelslittlegirls. Jabber on little monkey.
Spidey

I didn't try to disguise a damn thing you perverted moron!

You started with the profanities Dr Feelslittlegirls. Be a man once in your
life and admit you were wrong using such language or forever be known as the
cock sucker you really fantasize to be.

Post by Dr Feelgood
Looks like a
classic perverted Glenn Hansen change the subject and call others names

that

Post by Dr Feelgood
describe your own actions ploy. Everyone can see you approve of adultery,
child molestation, stalking, bribery & pedophilia in general your

perverted

Post by Dr Feelgood
SOB! You have even bragged about abusing neighborhood pets so I guess your
willing to do just about anything disgusting and claim it's ok for you to

do

Post by Dr Feelgood
so. The fact you were caught trying to file a false disability claim and

had

Post by Dr Feelgood
to pay them back to avoid prosecution is clear.

Google shows this to be the story of your life in your own words. Found
constantly in your posts are refernces to "adultery,
child molestation, stalking, bribery & pedophilia". I bet you get all hot
and sweaty writting and then dreaming about this stuff as you type.

The references are to your adultry. Or should I call it incest seeing as how
you seem to be doing your sister? You and your buddy are the ones who
threatened to rape children. I simply oposted the proof of your threats to
rape children so the pedophila is all yours and your buddies.

Post by Spiderman

Post by Dr Feelgood
The money I live on is
EARNED Social Security pay I actually worked for and paid into for 30

years.
All you welfare rats say the same thing. You collect disabilty yet can
collect for charities and take people grocery shopping.

Yes Glenn, Even disabled people can do things to lighten the burden of those
less fortunate. It's a shame you are such a leach on society. People like
you who try and scam the system always seem upset at people who actually
deserve the benifits you can't even get by lying. Why does it bother you so
much that I actually help others?

BTW: I do not collect "disability: I collect my regular Social Security. You
would know about social security if you had ever actually worked for a
living instead of leeching off of others your whole life.

Post by Spiderman

Post by Dr Feelgood
The Apartment complex where I live is not a state run welfare project like
you claim. I pay my full rent without any assistance of any kind.

Government funds from the working people of America subsidizes your rent.
Yeah you pay the full rent they charge you and we pay the rest. Get over it.
It is all okay.

No government funds are paid towards my rent at all. Care to make a wager
on that? You seem so sure you are right it should be an easy way for you to
make some money if you are right. Put up or shut up Glenn. How about
$5000.00 ? Back up that big mouth of yours BOY!

Post by Spiderman

Post by Dr Feelgood
I pay my
own bills on time myself and I do not bribe government officials to avoid
paying property taxes like some scumbag perverts do. I do not stalk
government officials and private citizens like you do either.

I rent so I have only federal taxes to sweat and as far as stalking a serch
of Google shows you to be the TG stalker extrodinaire. You have posted
personal information ie; addresses and admitted to drive bys of these folks
homes.

You need an income to pay federal taxes. All you do is live off of your
wife's disability pay while cheeting on her every chance you get it seems.
Running around taking pictures of the people you stalk does not qualify you
as a reporter. To be a reporter you have to be paid for articles and or
pictures that actually get published other than on some free web space that
you put them on.

No it was you and your buddy who posted my address and you that posted the
pictures you took when you were stalking Denny. You were so proud of your
conviction for stalking Denny you even posted your restraining order to this
newsgroup.

Did the city finally sell your house for back taxes? Just a couple of years
ago the records showed you had caught up on them some way or another. Did
Phelps buy your deed and agree to rent you your home to keep you quiet about
something?

Post by Spiderman

Post by Dr Feelgood
You and your abusive child killing friend have been posting gross

profanity

Post by Dr Feelgood
in this newsgroup for years so stop acting offended when I state my

opinion

Post by Dr Feelgood
of you in language you are very familiar with.

You have done a good job describing all your problems using a third party.
You should have bought medications and not a 'nicer' car.

My only problems are you and your buddy. It is none of your business that
one of my family members bought me a new Caddy. You didn't seem to have a
problem buying the Bug with your wife's disability money so you have nothing
to complain about.


Dr Feelgood

"Terrorist are terrorist. It doesn't matter if they are blowing themselves
up in suicide bomb attacks, flying hijacked airplanes into buildings,
mailing deadly diseases in envelops or posting personal attacks and lies in
internet newsgroups. Terrorist are terrorist."
Dr Feelgood (2001,2002,2003,2004,2005)

[Spiderman]

Post by Dr. Feelgood
I would call you a cock sucker but I heard you are trying to quit after
your last arrest for inappropriate sexual conduct in a public location. I
also hear you were almost caught trying to urinate on the grave of one of
your stalking victims recently. Is this true? If so you really are much
sicker than I thought before.

I hope your above confession is good for your lost soul.

[Spiderman]

Post by Dr Feelgood

Post by Spiderman
Google shows this to be the story of your life in your own words. Found
constantly in your posts are refernces to "adultery,
child molestation, stalking, bribery & pedophilia". I bet you get all hot
and sweaty writting and then dreaming about this stuff as you type.

The references are to your adultry. Or should I call it incest seeing as how
you seem to be doing your sister? You and your buddy are the ones who
threatened to rape children. I simply oposted the proof of your threats to
rape children so the pedophila is all yours and your buddies.

I have three brothers but no sister and I have no buddy that threatens to
rape anything leaving you once again in a fantasy world filled with
perversion and sickness. A google search uncovers a constant sick rambling
of this type from you. Why do you dwell on these topics all the time?

Post by Dr Feelgood

Post by Spiderman

Post by Dr Feelgood
The money I live on is
EARNED Social Security pay I actually worked for and paid into for 30

years.
All you welfare rats say the same thing. You collect disabilty yet can
collect for charities and take people grocery shopping.

Yes Glenn, Even disabled people can do things to lighten the burden of those
less fortunate. It's a shame you are such a leach on society. People like
you who try and scam the system always seem upset at people who actually
deserve the benifits you can't even get by lying. Why does it bother you so
much that I actually help others?

This Glenn you have spent years chasing in the shadows he is your twin
brother? Certainly sounds like your relative.

Post by Dr Feelgood
BTW: I do not collect "disability: I collect my regular Social Security. You
would know about social security if you had ever actually worked for a
living instead of leeching off of others your whole life.

Proof?

Post by Dr Feelgood

Post by Spiderman

Post by Dr Feelgood
The Apartment complex where I live is not a state run welfare project like
you claim. I pay my full rent without any assistance of any kind.

Government funds from the working people of America subsidizes your rent.
Yeah you pay the full rent they charge you and we pay the rest. Get over it.
It is all okay.

No government funds are paid towards my rent at all. Care to make a wager
on that? You seem so sure you are right it should be an easy way for you to
make some money if you are right. Put up or shut up Glenn. How about
$5000.00 ? Back up that big mouth of yours BOY!

Don't have to when a search with Google shows your abode is low income
apartment complex for the less fortunate. Don't let it embarass you that you
can't make it on you own. Happens to many losers like you but in here
America the rest of us will take care of you.

Post by Dr Feelgood

Post by Spiderman

Post by Dr Feelgood
I pay my
own bills on time myself and I do not bribe government officials to avoid
paying property taxes like some scumbag perverts do. I do not stalk
government officials and private citizens like you do either.

I rent so I have only federal taxes to sweat and as far as stalking a serch
of Google shows you to be the TG stalker extrodinaire. You have posted
personal information ie; addresses and admitted to drive bys of these folks
homes.

You need an income to pay federal taxes. All you do is live off of your
wife's disability pay while cheeting on her every chance you get it seems.
Running around taking pictures of the people you stalk does not qualify you
as a reporter. To be a reporter you have to be paid for articles and or
pictures that actually get published other than on some free web space that
you put them on.
No it was you and your buddy who posted my address and you that posted the
pictures you took when you were stalking Denny. You were so proud of your
conviction for stalking Denny you even posted your restraining order to this
newsgroup.

Feelslittlegirl take another swipe at the windmill. Whack! You must really
miss your lover Denny. Without him nobody stands up for you. News Flash!! I
am not married. I am not a reporter. No RO.

Post by Dr Feelgood
Did the city finally sell your house for back taxes? Just a couple of years
ago the records showed you had caught up on them some way or another. Did
Phelps buy your deed and agree to rent you your home to keep you quiet about
something?

Ramble on Feelslittlegirls. I do notice you used to defend Phelps and say he
was so good. My bad. That was when Batman and Glenn were after him. It is
all there on Google.

Post by Dr Feelgood

Post by Spiderman

Post by Dr Feelgood
You and your abusive child killing friend have been posting gross

profanity

Post by Dr Feelgood
in this newsgroup for years so stop acting offended when I state my

opinion

Post by Dr Feelgood
of you in language you are very familiar with.

You have done a good job describing all your problems using a third party.
You should have bought medications and not a 'nicer' car.

My only problems are you and your buddy. It is none of your business that
one of my family members bought me a new Caddy. You didn't seem to have a
problem buying the Bug with your wife's disability money so you have nothing
to complain about.

Only YOUR relative could be so stupid. According to your posts in Google you
owe money for your Rx's and can't afford to fill them all now. So what does
your relative do? Not help you with your obvious medical/mental problems.
Nope, buys you a new Caddie instead of the needed drugs. Dr Feelslittlegirls
is now Ghetto rich. He has his new Caddie. Loser


I think I am done playing with you for the moment Feelslittlegirls. Been fun
putz. Until the next time eat shit and die old man.


Spidey

Post by Dr Feelgood
Dr Feelgood
"Terrorist are terrorist. It doesn't matter if they are blowing themselves
up in suicide bomb attacks, flying hijacked airplanes into buildings,
mailing deadly diseases in envelops or posting personal attacks and lies in
internet newsgroups. Terrorist are terrorist."
Dr Feelgood (2001,2002,2003,2004,2005)

[kitty]

Dr. Feelgood -

Perhaps you should change your ID/e-mail name:

SEATTLE -- A former University of Washington softball team doctor who
was known to students as "Dr. Feelgood" and "The Candyman"
pleaded guilty Wednesday in U.S. District Court to illegally obtaining
prescription drugs.

[Dr Feelgood]

Post by kitty
Dr. Feelgood -
SEATTLE -- A former University of Washington softball team doctor who
was known to students as "Dr. Feelgood" and "The Candyman"
pleaded guilty Wednesday in U.S. District Court to illegally obtaining
prescription drugs.

The name "Dr Feelgood" was given to me by Wolfman Jack for my efforts
supporting the Children's hospital in Los Angels. CA and the Tecate
orphanage. Just because some jerk was using the same name is no reason for
me to abandon something I have been proud of for over 35 years.

Thank you for your concern.

Mike
AKA: Dr Feelgood

[BigVinnie]

Dr Feelgood wrote:
[snip]

Post by Dr Feelgood
The name "Dr Feelgood" was given to me by Wolfman Jack for my efforts
supporting the Children's hospital in Los Angels. CA and the Tecate
orphanage. Just because some jerk was using the same name is no reason for
me to abandon something I have been proud of for over 35 years.

[snip]

Next month nobody will remember who this guy is. Keep your name.

I have a neighbor named Susan Smith. She's not changing her name either.

--
www.totalsense.com

[Big Vinnie]

Tim Fierro wrote:
[snip]

Post by Tim Fierro
Should the City of Tacoma pay out money because a man killed a woman in a
different city?

[/snip]

Here is the rut of the matter. The city of Tacoma should have locked
David Brame up a long time ago. Instead the promoted him to chief.
This is where the liability lies. If the city had done its job he would
not have had the opportunity to murder.

Brame got where he was by playing the political favor game with his
superiors and use intimidation with his subordinates.

Because the voters of Tacoma keep electing idiots to the council they
are on the hook for the bill.

[Tim Fierro]

Post by Big Vinnie
[snip]

Post by Tim Fierro
Should the City of Tacoma pay out money because a
man killed a woman in a different city?

[/snip]
Here is the rut of the matter. The city of Tacoma should
have locked David Brame up a long time ago.

On what charge was he convicted of and how long ago was this?

What was his sentence and why did the city not lock him up after being
convicted?

You are saying that one must be convicted first before being locked up,
right?

Post by Big Vinnie
Instead the promoted him to chief. This is where the liability lies.

Liability for a man killing a woman? You really believe that a city has
this duty to protect any person in another city because they promoted
someone to a chief?

Post by Big Vinnie
If the city had done its job he would not have had the opportunity to
murder.

Opportunity can arise at any given moment, which is why that particular
morning that this happened has no significance to the incident. We cannot
change history and who knows what would have happened if one little thing
was changed that would have changed the date/time/motive (opportunity).

Post by Big Vinnie
Brame got where he was by playing the political favor game
with his superiors and use intimidation with his subordinates.
Because the voters of Tacoma keep electing idiots to the
council they are on the hook for the bill.

And the two above sentences you post has nothing to do with a man killing a
woman in another city. Maybe Tacoma needs to look at it's government system
and change if what you say is true, and if the citizens of Tacoma will
actually do anything about it, but it has no bearing on what someone does on
his own time. So no, I don't believe the city should be stuck with a bill
to give some relatives a butt load of cash.

[Dr. Feelgood]

Post by Tim Fierro

Post by Big Vinnie
[snip]

Post by Tim Fierro
Should the City of Tacoma pay out money because a
man killed a woman in a different city?

[/snip]
Here is the rut of the matter. The city of Tacoma should
have locked David Brame up a long time ago.

On what charge was he convicted of and how long ago was this?
What was his sentence and why did the city not lock him up after being
convicted?
You are saying that one must be convicted first before being locked up,
right?

Post by Big Vinnie
Instead the promoted him to chief. This is where the liability lies.

Liability for a man killing a woman? You really believe that a city has
this duty to protect any person in another city because they promoted
someone to a chief?

Post by Big Vinnie
If the city had done its job he would not have had the opportunity to
murder.

Opportunity can arise at any given moment, which is why that particular
morning that this happened has no significance to the incident. We cannot
change history and who knows what would have happened if one little thing
was changed that would have changed the date/time/motive (opportunity).

Post by Big Vinnie
Brame got where he was by playing the political favor game
with his superiors and use intimidation with his subordinates.
Because the voters of Tacoma keep electing idiots to the
council they are on the hook for the bill.

And the two above sentences you post has nothing to do with a man killing
a woman in another city. Maybe Tacoma needs to look at it's government
system and change if what you say is true, and if the citizens of Tacoma
will actually do anything about it, but it has no bearing on what someone
does on his own time. So no, I don't believe the city should be stuck
with a bill to give some relatives a butt load of cash.

You just don't seem to be able to grasp that although the final crime was
done in another city the actions that created a liability situation in this
case were in and the responsibility of Tacoma.

[Big Vinnie]

Tim Fierro wrote:
[snip]

Post by Tim Fierro
On what charge was he convicted of and how long ago was this?

[/snip]

Now you know the problem. You can't convict someone when you conspire
to hide the evidence. Rape and intimidation of witness are both
felonies the city managers refused to pursue.

Just because someone was not convicted of a crime does not mean the
crime did not happen.

[a***@yahoo.com]

Maybe "Obstruction of Justice" of a potential victim in the alleged
Brame rape so-called "investigation" (where a now retired Police Chief
prayed about the rape with alleged Tacoma Police officer Rape
perpetrator- now dead Police Chief Brame) is an issue regarding the
later coverup (of the alleged rape investigation that never legally
happened) by no less than the ex-city manager to keep Brame in the
running for Chief by sealing the lawsuit brought by another Tacoma
Police employee, namely Kirby?. (per Kerslake media interviews, Corpuz
knew about the rape allegation while the Kirby lawsuit was ongoing and
sealed)

After the murder suicide, Kerslake silently slipped out of Tacoma. She
let that cat out of the bag that Corpuz knew about the rape allegation
against Brame during the Kirby lawsuit before he picked Brame (which
Corpuz denies still)

How many liars can Tacoma City government breed?..... Shelley, like
Jenkinson, have flown the coop along with the other known
miscreants..Woodard, the Police Department spokesman.....

Is Shelley Kerslake the liar, or Ray Corpuz?

Is Phil Knudsen the liar or Elizabeth Pauli & Jenkinson about taking
the gun from Brame?

people remember the conflicting statements made by tacoma officials.
Some one (employees at the time) is lying, that is why Tacoma's
credibility is shit.

[pikgitar]

Shelley is not lying regarding whether Ray knew or not.
I was involved in a law suit against the city at the time
when Ray was being manipulated by Brame and Kerslake
and I was also involved with Joe Kirby on a direct basis at that time.
I knew about the rape in 1996.
I also know D Brame's first wife and why she left him.
I also know about Brame's buddies Meeks and McCrea.
I have personally seen them pick up South Tacoma Way hookers,
along with David Brame and take them to the cemetary out on 56th & STW
and smoke crak with them.
Shelley is only guilty of concealing the truth
and manipulating the figure heads of Tacoma,
oh,
and of course using unlawful tactics in the courts
in order to defend all the wrongs that have been committed by TPD
and many others who have been running
(and still are running)
Tacoma
for the last half century.


Shelley Marie Kerslake's father is one of the highest payed city
lawyers in Tacoma.
He knew exactly how to protect his darling little bitch of a daughter
and further negotiated a cush job for her in the big county just to the
north,
while Shelley saved her ass and decided to dump the crap on
the greedy Raymond
(the sleaze)
Corpuss.
They all knew that Ray was unsavable from a political standpoint
and therefor Ray allowed them to give him
a golden
parachute
retirement
package
and took the heat. MY MY -- HOW NOBLE OF HIM.


If you want to know the truth, go ask the only honest TPD I have ever
known, Joe Kirby.
Tacoma runs on OBSTRUCTION of JUSTICE.

[a***@yahoo.com]

Maybe "Obstruction of Justice" of a potential victim in the alleged
Brame rape so-called "investigation" (where a now retired Police Chief
prayed about the rape with alleged Tacoma Police officer Rape
perpetrator- now dead Police Chief Brame) is an issue regarding the
later coverup (of the alleged rape investigation that never legally
happened) by no less than the ex-city manager to keep Brame in the
running for Chief by sealing the lawsuit brought by another Tacoma
Police employee, namely Kirby?. (per Kerslake media interviews, Corpuz
knew about the rape allegation while the Kirby lawsuit was ongoing and
sealed)

After the murder suicide, Kerslake silently slipped out of Tacoma. She
let that cat out of the bag that Corpuz knew about the rape allegation
against Brame during the Kirby lawsuit before he picked Brame (which
Corpuz denies still)

How many liars can Tacoma City government breed?..... Shelley, like
Jenkinson, have flown the coop along with the other known
miscreants..Woodard, the Police Department spokesman.....

Is Shelley Kerslake the liar, or Ray Corpuz?

Is Phil Knudsen the liar or Elizabeth Pauli & Jenkinson about taking
the gun from Brame?

people remember the conflicting statements made by tacoma officials.
Some one (employees at the time) is lying, that is why Tacoma's
credibility is shit.

[pikgitar]

Shelley is not lying regarding whether Ray knew or not.
I was involved in a law suit against the city at the time
when Ray was being manipulated by Brame and Kerslake
and I was also involved with Joe Kirby on a direct basis at that time.
I knew about the rape in 1996.
I also know D Brame's first wife and why she left him.
I also know about Brame's buddies Meeks and McCrea.
I have personally seen them pick up South Tacoma Way hookers,
along with David Brame and take them to the cemetary out on 56th & STW
and smoke crak with them.
Shelley is only guilty of concealing the truth
and manipulating the figure heads of Tacoma,
oh,
and of course using unlawful tactics in the courts
in order to defend all the wrongs that have been committed by TPD
and many others who have been running
(and still are running)
Tacoma
for the last half century.

Shelley Marie Kerslake's father is one of the highest payed city
lawyers in Tacoma.
He knew exactly how to protect his darling little bitch of a daughter
and further negotiated a cush job for her in the big county just to the
north,
while Shelley saved her ass and decided to dump the crap on
the greedy Raymond
(the sleaze)
Corpuss.
They all knew that Ray was unsavable from a political standpoint
and therefor Ray allowed them to give him
a golden
parachute
retirement
package
and took the heat. MY MY -- HOW NOBLE OF HIM.

If you want to know the truth, go ask the only honest TPD I have ever
known, Joe Kirby.
Tacoma runs on OBSTRUCTION of JUSTICE.

[C***@yahoo.com]

TPD MEEKS KNOWING OF BRAME DV ALLEGATION BK15


WASHINGTON STATE PATROL
CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION DIVISION
Investigative Report

FILE TITLE City of Tacoma
CASE NUMBER 03004969
DETECTIVE
Detective Sergeant Michael B. Haw
Detective Sergeant John G. Anderson

SUBJECT Meeks Knowledge of Domestic Violence
_____________________________________________

SYNOPSIS:

It was alleged several officials in the Tacoma Police Department (TPD),
including TPD Assistant Chief William Meeks, were aware of domestic
violence incidents involving David and Crystal Brame and failed to
notify the appropriate law enforcement agency. It was also alleged
Meeks and other TPD officials knew of death threats made against
Crystal by David Brame.

DETAILS:

Meeks was interviewed by Washington State Patrol (WSP) Detective
Sergeants Michael Haw and John Anderson on August 19,2003. Meeks stated
he first became aware of strife in David and Crystal Brames marriage
sometime in 1996. According to Meeks, Brame called him at home and told
him he and Crystal had a fight and he needed Meeks to meet him at his
home. Meeks said he drove to Brame's house in Gig Harbor with his video
camera, at Brame's request, and videotaped Brame's 30 to 60 second
re-enactment of the alleged assault by Crystal.1 Meeks stated Brame
showed him scratches on the back of his neck and a contusion on his arm
he claimed were caused by Crystal. According to Meeks, he told Brame to
call the police and report the incident. Meeks stated Brame refused,
saying he was not going to have has wife arrested. Meeks added he also
told Brame to call the TPD chief and notify him of the incident Meeks
said Brame told him he already called TPD Assistant Chief Ken Monner.

Meeks also stated he was aware of another domestic violence incident
David Brame told him about which occurred in 1998. According to Meeks,
he never actually observed injuries associated with the 1998 incident,
however he saw photos Brame showed him during the 2OO3 divorce
proceedings. According to Meeks, Brame told him he contacted the police
regarding the incident and was going to speak with Lane Judson about
it. Meeks said Brame later told him Lane Judson had spoken with Crystal
and told her the physical violence must stop.

Meeks said he never had knowledge of Brame abusing Crystal. Meeks said
if he had known of spousal abuse by Brame, he would most likely have
contacted the Tacoma City Attorney Robin Jenkinson and declared
Whistleblower status to provide information about the abuse. Meeks
added he would have sought Whistleblower status to provide some measure
of protection from Brame because of Brame's vindictive nature.

Lane and Patty Judson were interviewed by WSP Detective Sergeant Ken
Wade and Detective Major Bambino on May 13,2003. According to the
Judsons, Crystal told them David stated he showed Meeks and TPD
Assistant Chief Richard McCrea the scratches while at Tacoma Mayor Bill
Baarsma's wedding. The Judsons said Crystal told them David said Meeks
took pictures of the scratches on David's neck.

On June 3,2002, WSP Detective Major Bambino and WSP Detective Sergeant
John Anderson interviewed TPD Lieutenant Robert Sheehan. During the
interview stated he was aware of a domestic violence incident between
David and Crystal Brame which occurred sometime in 1996. Sheehan stated
he thought photographs had been taken of the injuries to David Brame.
Sheehan explained he did not know who took the photographs until he
read in the newspapers after Brame's death that Meeks took them.2
Sheehan stated he felt the incident should have been investigated by
the TPD Internal Affairs (IA) unit. Sheehan added if the same incident
occurred today, it would be investigated by TPD IA.

On June 24,2003, Anderson and Haw interviewed Gene and Beverly Brame.
The Brames said they were aware of an incident involving domestic
violence between David and Crystal Brame that happened in 1998. Beverly
Brame stated she took pictures of the injuries David claimed Crystal
inflicted on him that consisted of scratches to the back of his neck
and a large contusion to his right bicep. Copies of those pictures were
provided to Haw and Anderson.

According to the Brames, David told them he reported the incident to
TPD Chief Ken Morrner. The Brames said David told them Meeks took
pictures or video of the injuries.3

On August 13,2003, and August 20,2003, WSP Lieutenant Grant Hulteen,
Wade and Bambino interviewed TPD Assistant Chief Catherine Woodard.
Woodard said some time during the 1990's (she could not remember the
exact date), the second domestic violence had occurred between the
Brames, but after this incident of domestic violence, Brame went to the
Gig Harbor Police Department (GHPD) to report it but did not complete
the report. Woodard stated Brame called TPD officer Norm Conaway and
had him contact Brame at the GHPD- According to Woodard, Conaway took
photographs of Brame injuries. Woodard stated the injuries consisted of
a bruise on Brame's arm and scratch on his neck.

Woodard indicated Meeks also had contacted Brame after one of the two
incidents. Woodard said Meeks had video taped Brame's injuries. Woodard
stated Meeks could not find the video tape; Meeks thought his children
had recorded over the tape.

Assistant Chief Catherine Woodard was interviewed by WSP Lieutenant
Grant Hulteen, Detective Sergeant Ken Wade, and Detective Major Bambino
on August 20, 2003. During the interview Woodard stated she learned
that sometime during the 1990's Meeks had gone to Brame's residence and
video-taped injuries to Brame.4 Woodard also stated she knew of three
other individuals who were aware of domestic violence between David and
Crystal Brame; Assistant Chief Richard McCrae, Lieutenant Robert
Sheehan, and Detective Norm Conaway. Divorce documents regarding the
allegations of domestic violence and death threats made by David Brame
to Crystal Brame were made public in an article which appeared in the
Seattle Post-Intelligencer on April 25,2003.5 The article quoted
Crystal Brame's specific allegations that David Brame pointed his
departmentally issued handgun at her and tried to choke her during two
separate incidents in the past six months.


Signature__________________________________________ Date
Officer's Signature________________________________ Date
Supervisor's Signature ____________________________ Date


1 See ISB Book, Sergeant Haw's report of the Meeks interview for
specific information.Officer's

2 See Witness Book 2, H - W, regarding Sheehan's interview.

3 See ISB Book, Sergeant Anderson's report regarding Gene and Beverly
Brames first interview.

4 See ISB Book, Lieutenant Hulteen's report regarding Woodard's
interview.

5 See Addendum CJ; the April 25,2003, article published in the Seattle
Post-Intelligence

[TacomaPI]

x

[Cloud_Writer]

WASHINGTON STATE PATROL
CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION DIVISION
Investigative Report

FILE TITLE
City of Tacoma

CASE NUMBER
03-004969

DETECTIVE
Sergeant John Anderson

SUBJECT
In-Person Interview (Harmon)

SYNOPSIS:

On June 19, 2003, Detective Sergeants John Anderson and Mike Haw spoke
with Tanya Harmon. Harmon's name was given to Anderson and Haw by [2
full lines redacted]. Harmon is an ex-Tacoma Police Department civilian
manager. Harmon was the Personnel Manager from 1999 to her separation
date in April of 2002. Harmon spoke about her professional relationship
with David Brame while he was an Assistant Chief and then when he was
appointed to the Chief of the Tacoma Police Department.

No taped statement was taken.

DETAILS:

On June 19,2003 at 12:40 p.m., Detective Sergeants J. Anderson and M.
Haw interviewed Tanya Harmon. Harmon was employed by the Tacoma Police
Department from mid-1999 until April of 2002. Harmon was in charge of
the personnel section of the department under Chief James Hairston.
Harmon said she started in that position after she left the Washington
State Patrol. Harmon talked about her professional relationship with
then Assistant Chief Brame.

According to Harmon, Assistant Chief Brame insisted Harmon call him
Chief Brame. Harmon explained there were other civilian managers,
specifically Finance and Property Manager Mitchell McCalvin, who
addressed Assistant Chief Brame as Dave or David. Harmon stated on at
least two occasions during police department staff meetings, she had
been rudely interrupted by Brame. According to Harmon, after both
occasions, Brame had contacted Harmon in her office at the direction of
Chief Hairston to apologize for his rudeness during the staff meetings.

According to Harmon, Mitchell McCalvin was hired shortly after Harmon.
McCalvin is the Tacoma Police Finance and Property Manager. Harmon said
McCalvin was definitely in Brame's camp, meaning he was a supporter of
Brame. Harmon said McCalvin would often come into her office and feed
her information on Brame. According to Harmon, McCalvin was the person
who gave Harmon the information about the 1988 rape and the domestic
violence matter. Harmon believes she was told by McCalvin the Pierce
County Sheriffs Office responded to the Brame residence regarding the
DV call or calls. Harmon stated she felt McCalvin was scouting her out
to see how she felt about Brame. Harmon added she told McCalvin "it was
none of his business." Harmon also stated she had no doubt Brame knew
of her dislike for him.

Page 2

Harmon stated she is sure that Assistant City Attorney Elizabeth Pauli
from the Tacoma City Attorney's Office was aware of the Brame rape
allegation because Pauli asked for related material reference the Kirby
lawsuit in the Summer of 2000. Harmon said City Attorney Robin
Jenkinson should have known of the Brame rape allegation as she was
heavily involved in the Kirby lawsuit as well. Harmon said Assistant
City Attorney Cheryl Carlson with the Tacoma City Attorney's Office
would be a good person to contact. Harmon stated Carlson was aware of
the rape allegation through her association with the Kirby lawsuit.

According to Harmon, as part of her duties as the personnel manager she
had worked hard to clean up the personnel files of the police
department's employees. Harmon stated there were all sorts of materials
in the personnel files that should not have been there, including
medical information. Harmon stated she had been involved in the removal
of the medical information from the personnel files, but was not sure
of where the medical information had been removed to.

Harmon stated information about the routine destruction of Internal
Affairs files after three years was incorrect. Harmon explained
Internal Affairs files are not routinely destroyed. Harmon said she
thought the IA files were kept in a file cabinet by Internal Affairs
Detective Steve Shake in his office.

Harmon said she knew of no rumors of affairs between Brame and Woodard,
or Brame and a subordinate. According to Harmon, Human Resources and
the City Attorney's Office were always at odds with each other. Harmon
said Brame had a good working relationship with the City Attorney's
Office. Harmon stated Brame did not work well with Human Resources.
Harmon said Mary Brown from Human Resources despised Brame and Brame
was aware of Brown's dislike for him. Harmon said Brown always worked
well with Tacoma Police Assistant Chief Mike Darland in the past.

Harmon said Brame never went anywhere alone but always had subordinates
in attendance with him. Harmon characterized Brame as insecure and
having subordinates with him at routine meetings bolstered his ego.
According to Harmon, Brame told her he was eliminating Harmon's
position as the personnel manager in March or early April of 2002, to
clear room in the police department budget for a fourth Assistant
Chiefs position. Harmon believes she was let go because Brame knew she
did not like him and her loyalty to him would always be questionable.

Harmon was asked if there was justification, based on her past
experience as the personnel manager of the department, for a third City
Attorney. Harmon replied there was no justification for a third
attorney. Harmon added she thought the two attorneys assigned to the
department would be better served by distributing the workload more
evenly between them. Harmon explained that City Attorney Thomas Orr was
carrying most of the workload as the other city attorney, Kim Gerhardt,
handled only work which involved the Special Investigations Division.
Officer's Signature
Date

Supervisor's Signature
Date

[Cloud_Writer]

$1 Million Spent, And Trial Still A Year Away
Sean Robinson; The News Tribune
January 23Rd, 2005

...The city has asked for access to the pair of Toyota Camrys driven by
David and Crystal Brame the day of the shootings. The family has
replied that the cars have been sold. The city isn't satisfied with
that answer.

"That's all forensic evidence that tells what happened," said Tim
Gosselin, an attorney representing the city. "That's a crime scene.
We need to understand what happened there. It's a reflection of the
complexity of the case."...

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/4479343p-4216125c.html

Hats off to Sean Robinson for getting a lot of real information (versus
fluff and filler) into one article. Great job.
But I have a question that maybe someone with more technical knowledge
can answer...

WHY after the cars were already taken into possession by the Pierce
County Sheriff's Department, and PRESUMABLY mapped out in GREAT DETAIL
regarding blood pools, blood spatter, and in the reports - spray and
location of chunks of "brain matter" ------ why AFTER THEY RETURN the
cars would anyone think that the FAMILIES of the deceased would want to
KEEP THE CARS around?

Putting myself in the place of the families - which no one really can
do, if you gave me back the cars and did not tell me that I was
supposed to keep them because it's evidence, I would call a junk yard
to come get them within minutes.

If they WERE considered evidence, why would evidence be handed over to
a family that clearly could be filing suit. It's almost two years
later.

If I was PCSD, if permissable, I would even call and ask the family(s)
if they want the cars back at ALL - or would they instead want us to
dispose of them. YA KNOW? A HUMAN COMPASSION THING. Perhaps that
happened, I don't know - or maybe legally they can't offer that - but
for the attorneys whose job it is to vindicate the City of Tacoma - to
reach this far to give the APPEARANCE that the stalling of this trial
is a tit and tat affair while the city scours for something to save
them their fate is pretty desparate.

Perhaps they should just get real and grovel.

It feels to me like the attorneys promising the city that this case is
in the bag are lining their pockets, trying to keep a straight face all
the way to the bank.

The city appears to be paying a very high price for a false sense of
assurance. That's how it looks to me.

And like the nude photo of Crystal - same questions apply to these cars
"Why would you need these things now? What PURPOSE?" I haven't heard
and can't imagine the actual "purpose."
For a psychic to sit in and feel the vibes perhaps?
Maybe cocaine in the carpet could explain things?

If the high paid city attorneys knew that there was potential/likely
liability issues all over this execution/suicide - being ATTORNEYS,
high paid, and PRESUMABLY COMPETENT - if the investigation of the PCSD
was less than what served their OWN interest in the cars, why didn't
they ask for the cars then, before they were returned to the
likely-to-sue parties.

And oh they DID know about liability! Probably from within MINUTES they
first heard - but certainly by the Monday following the shooting when
the attorneys representing my city held a meeting where they discussed
nothing BUT the liability issues.

Craftily orchestrating how to protect the public entity far preceded
trying to figure out what to wear to any related funerals..

Games & delusions.
This is all about swaying the public's PERCEPTION, not real points of
law.

[Scooby-Doggy-Dog]

Post by Cloud_Writer
$1 Million Spent, And Trial Still A Year Away
Sean Robinson; The News Tribune
January 23Rd, 2005
...The city has asked for access to the pair of Toyota Camrys driven by
David and Crystal Brame the day of the shootings. The family has
replied that the cars have been sold. The city isn't satisfied with
that answer.
"That's all forensic evidence that tells what happened," said Tim
Gosselin, an attorney representing the city. "That's a crime scene.
We need to understand what happened there. It's a reflection of the
complexity of the case."...
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/4479343p-4216125c.html
Hats off to Sean Robinson for getting a lot of real information (versus
fluff and filler) into one article. Great job.
But I have a question that maybe someone with more technical

knowledge

Post by Cloud_Writer
can answer...
WHY after the cars were already taken into possession by the Pierce
County Sheriff's Department, and PRESUMABLY mapped out in GREAT DETAIL
regarding blood pools, blood spatter, and in the reports - spray and
location of chunks of "brain matter" ------ why AFTER THEY RETURN the
cars would anyone think that the FAMILIES of the deceased would want to
KEEP THE CARS around?
Putting myself in the place of the families - which no one really can
do, if you gave me back the cars and did not tell me that I was
supposed to keep them because it's evidence, I would call a junk yard
to come get them within minutes.
If they WERE considered evidence, why would evidence be handed over to
a family that clearly could be filing suit. It's almost two years
later.
If I was PCSD, if permissable, I would even call and ask the

family(s)

Post by Cloud_Writer
if they want the cars back at ALL - or would they instead want us to
dispose of them. YA KNOW? A HUMAN COMPASSION THING. Perhaps that
happened, I don't know - or maybe legally they can't offer that -

but

Post by Cloud_Writer
for the attorneys whose job it is to vindicate the City of Tacoma - to
reach this far to give the APPEARANCE that the stalling of this trial
is a tit and tat affair while the city scours for something to save
them their fate is pretty desparate.
Perhaps they should just get real and grovel.
It feels to me like the attorneys promising the city that this case is
in the bag are lining their pockets, trying to keep a straight face all
the way to the bank.
The city appears to be paying a very high price for a false sense of
assurance. That's how it looks to me.
And like the nude photo of Crystal - same questions apply to these cars
"Why would you need these things now? What PURPOSE?" I haven't heard
and can't imagine the actual "purpose."
For a psychic to sit in and feel the vibes perhaps?
Maybe cocaine in the carpet could explain things?
If the high paid city attorneys knew that there was potential/likely
liability issues all over this execution/suicide - being ATTORNEYS,
high paid, and PRESUMABLY COMPETENT - if the investigation of the PCSD
was less than what served their OWN interest in the cars, why didn't
they ask for the cars then, before they were returned to the
likely-to-sue parties.
And oh they DID know about liability! Probably from within MINUTES they
first heard - but certainly by the Monday following the shooting when
the attorneys representing my city held a meeting where they

discussed

Post by Cloud_Writer
nothing BUT the liability issues.
Craftily orchestrating how to protect the public entity far preceded
trying to figure out what to wear to any related funerals..
Games & delusions.
This is all about swaying the public's PERCEPTION, not real points of
law.

Up late again CW? No job to go to in the morning or do you work
nights?