Are American Roads a Jungle?

[donquijote1954]

see results at...
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?threadid=122628

Are American Roads a Jungle?
"I have managed to survive more than 12 months driving here, and I
thought I would share some tips with you, in case you ever develop
masochistic tendencies and evince a desire to drive here. These tips
will help you blend in."

Surviving in the jungle for 12 month ain't easy feat. It takes a lot of
knowledge of the laws...of the jungle. Number one is, size matters,
like the big fish eats the little fish... But don't take it from me...

Choice of Vehicle

-Choose the largest vehicle you can. Because petrol is so cheap here,
no matter how large your vehicle is, it still won't cost much to run. A
very large vehicle gives you several advantages.

-A large vehicle will allow you to see the traffic. If everyone is
driving normal size cars, everyone can see ahead to watch for stopping
or danger, and everyone can see if it's safe to turn left or right.
However, no-one drives normal size cars here. Everyone is driving large
vehicles. If you drive a normal size car, the sort found in the rest of
the world, you will be unable to see anything other than the tops of
the wheels of the other vehicles. This is clearly dangerous. Your only
recourse is to drive a huge vehicle yourself. The bigger the better,
because then you can peer over the tops of the other vehicles and be
alert for danger.

-The larger the vehicle you are driving, the more you can intimidate
the fools who choose to drive anything smaller. You will often need to
force other vehicles out of your way, especially those fools who
misunderstand the speed limits. And any fool who hesitates. If you have
a vehicle the same size as the one you want to intimidate, you are
going to make no impression on the other driver. Remember, they aren't
usually watching the road, so they won't notice your vehicle unless you
are really, really HUGE. If your vehicle is 6 times their size, then
they will notice you and they will hear you. You can happily ignore
them. They will stop or veer away from you because they know they will
be crushed by your juggernaut if they don't.

-When you choose your large vehicle, it will be unfinished. You will
need to modify the vehicle to suit your personality and abilities.
Generally speaking, you should enlarge your vehicle. Make it an extra 3
feet higher by adding massive shock absorbers and hydraulics. Make it
bigger again by adding oversized tyres. Make it wider by adding wide
tyres or huge side mirrors. You should aim to make the vehicle appear
bigger and bulkier. The bigger you are, the better you can be seen. The
bigger you are, the more vehicles you can intimidate.

On The Road

-Do not use your indicators to change lanes. It is a sign of weakness,
a warning that you not confident or skilled enough to simply move into
the next lane. Indicators are usually used by drivers who are not
travelling with the pack and are unable to simply move into a gap. If
you use your indicators, you will be seen as a dangerous driver and
other drivers will PUNISH you. They will punish you by immediately
moving up to block your passage.

-Do not use your indicators when turning corners. It is unnecessary as
no-one needs to know if you are turning or not.

-Because of the nature of the roads, you will often enter a highway in
the right-most lane, and need to turn left almost immediately
afterwards. You will need to cross four or five lanes almost
immediately. This is relatively easy and should be done without the use
of indicators. If you use your indicators, other drivers will close up
and prevent your passage. Most drivers will be travelling in packs and
travelling at speed. You can trust them to maintain their formations.
Simply swing across into the desired lane. They will trust you too and
they will not slow down or swerve. They will simply ignore you. This is
correct behaviour and traffic will flow smoothly.

-When you first obtain a drivers license in your state of choice, you
have to sit for a small examination to show that you know the rules of
the road. You will be given a small booklet with the rules in it and
expected to memorise it. Two things to remember. The book contains
rules and numbers that you have to remember just long enough to pass
the exam and get your license. It can then be forgotten. This is a
small exercise in short-term memory abilities. And anyway, the rules
are optional. They are for ideal conditions, like when a traffic
policeman is watching you carefully. They are not meant to be used in
the real world. For example, the book says you should not cross
unbroken white lines. In reality, you should not cross unbroken white
lines unless you want to.

Sharing The Road

-You might sometimes notice that there are things on the road that are
smaller than smaller vehicles. I refer to motorcycles, bicycles,
pedestrians and animals. These are small and can generally be ignored.

more...

http://www.hgriggs.com/driving.html

http://committed.to/justiceforpeace

[Scott Buchanan]

Funny. Too bad that it is true. Where were you driving?

Post by donquijote1954
see results at...
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?threadid=122628
Are American Roads a Jungle?
"I have managed to survive more than 12 months driving here, and I
thought I would share some tips with you, in case you ever develop
masochistic tendencies and evince a desire to drive here. These tips
will help you blend in."
Surviving in the jungle for 12 month ain't easy feat. It takes a lot of
knowledge of the laws...of the jungle. Number one is, size matters,
like the big fish eats the little fish... But don't take it from me...
Choice of Vehicle
-Choose the largest vehicle you can. Because petrol is so cheap here,
no matter how large your vehicle is, it still won't cost much to run. A
very large vehicle gives you several advantages.
-A large vehicle will allow you to see the traffic. If everyone is
driving normal size cars, everyone can see ahead to watch for stopping
or danger, and everyone can see if it's safe to turn left or right.
However, no-one drives normal size cars here. Everyone is driving large
vehicles. If you drive a normal size car, the sort found in the rest of
the world, you will be unable to see anything other than the tops of
the wheels of the other vehicles. This is clearly dangerous. Your only
recourse is to drive a huge vehicle yourself. The bigger the better,
because then you can peer over the tops of the other vehicles and be
alert for danger.
-The larger the vehicle you are driving, the more you can intimidate
the fools who choose to drive anything smaller. You will often need to
force other vehicles out of your way, especially those fools who
misunderstand the speed limits. And any fool who hesitates. If you have
a vehicle the same size as the one you want to intimidate, you are
going to make no impression on the other driver. Remember, they aren't
usually watching the road, so they won't notice your vehicle unless you
are really, really HUGE. If your vehicle is 6 times their size, then
they will notice you and they will hear you. You can happily ignore
them. They will stop or veer away from you because they know they will
be crushed by your juggernaut if they don't.
-When you choose your large vehicle, it will be unfinished. You will
need to modify the vehicle to suit your personality and abilities.
Generally speaking, you should enlarge your vehicle. Make it an extra 3
feet higher by adding massive shock absorbers and hydraulics. Make it
bigger again by adding oversized tyres. Make it wider by adding wide
tyres or huge side mirrors. You should aim to make the vehicle appear
bigger and bulkier. The bigger you are, the better you can be seen. The
bigger you are, the more vehicles you can intimidate.
On The Road
-Do not use your indicators to change lanes. It is a sign of weakness,
a warning that you not confident or skilled enough to simply move into
the next lane. Indicators are usually used by drivers who are not
travelling with the pack and are unable to simply move into a gap. If
you use your indicators, you will be seen as a dangerous driver and
other drivers will PUNISH you. They will punish you by immediately
moving up to block your passage.
-Do not use your indicators when turning corners. It is unnecessary as
no-one needs to know if you are turning or not.
-Because of the nature of the roads, you will often enter a highway in
the right-most lane, and need to turn left almost immediately
afterwards. You will need to cross four or five lanes almost
immediately. This is relatively easy and should be done without the use
of indicators. If you use your indicators, other drivers will close up
and prevent your passage. Most drivers will be travelling in packs and
travelling at speed. You can trust them to maintain their formations.
Simply swing across into the desired lane. They will trust you too and
they will not slow down or swerve. They will simply ignore you. This is
correct behaviour and traffic will flow smoothly.
-When you first obtain a drivers license in your state of choice, you
have to sit for a small examination to show that you know the rules of
the road. You will be given a small booklet with the rules in it and
expected to memorise it. Two things to remember. The book contains
rules and numbers that you have to remember just long enough to pass
the exam and get your license. It can then be forgotten. This is a
small exercise in short-term memory abilities. And anyway, the rules
are optional. They are for ideal conditions, like when a traffic
policeman is watching you carefully. They are not meant to be used in
the real world. For example, the book says you should not cross
unbroken white lines. In reality, you should not cross unbroken white
lines unless you want to.
Sharing The Road
-You might sometimes notice that there are things on the road that are
smaller than smaller vehicles. I refer to motorcycles, bicycles,
pedestrians and animals. These are small and can generally be ignored.
more...
http://www.hgriggs.com/driving.html
http://committed.to/justiceforpeace

[donquijote1954]

Post by Scott Buchanan
Funny. Too bad that it is true. Where were you driving?

If you've driven I-95 in Florida then you know the jungle. The problem
is SUVs, kids racing among cars, supersonic motorcyclists and every
other suicidal driver out there. And of course, this other issue...

There's something particularly bad about American roads: LACK OF LANE
DISCIPLINE. Nobody enforces that here. This makes our roads nothing
short of CHAOTIC and DEADLY. And then if you choose to do the right
thing and drive a small car, you will understand how you feel when
those 5 ton vehicles whistle past you on all sides...


'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of
inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing keep
right except to pass.

In addition you will save a considerable number of lives.

This will also take care of much of the problem driving having to do
with talking on phones applying makeup etc. The reason being that the
majority of times I see it as a problem the driver is in the LEFT lane
weaving. If we institute keep right except to pass we can safely blow
by these idiots when we think it is safe to do so rather than having
them hang out next to us.

As for those of you concerned about being stuck in the right lane going
too slowly. I can assure you that if the faster drivers are allowed to
get by, without being roadblocked in the passing lane, you will not
have a buildup of cars that will take 5 minutes to go by in close
proximity to each other.

In addition whenever I have seen the situation described in the
previous paragraph, the right lane is basically doing the speed limit.
Your real complaint is that the speed limits are too low and you want
to hang out in the left lane at a higher speed but don't want to be
courteous and pullover to allow others to pass.'

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/di...w/.ef08fa1/4340

[Odinn]

Post by donquijote1954

Post by Scott Buchanan
Funny. Too bad that it is true. Where were you driving?

If you've driven I-95 in Florida then you know the jungle.

I did, just yesterday, from Jacksonville to Daytona (then took 4 over to
Orlando)

Post by donquijote1954
The problem
is SUVs, kids racing among cars, supersonic motorcyclists and every
other suicidal driver out there. And of course, this other issue...

Didn't see any of this. Hell, I was on the only motorcycle I saw on the
road in that 140 miles and I was following an SUV with 3 adults and 2
kids (my wife, her bother and his wife and their 2 kids). We moved
along at a leisurely 80-85 MPH.

Post by donquijote1954
There's something particularly bad about American roads: LACK OF LANE
DISCIPLINE. Nobody enforces that here. This makes our roads nothing
short of CHAOTIC and DEADLY. And then if you choose to do the right
thing and drive a small car, you will understand how you feel when
those 5 ton vehicles whistle past you on all sides...

Lack of lane discipline? Does this refer to stay in the right lane
except to pass, or to people drifting between lanes? I didn't see
either problem yesterday, everyone was moving at relatively close
speeds, so the left lane was moving just a few MPH faster then the
right, no one drifting between lanes.

Post by donquijote1954
'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of
inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing keep
right except to pass.
In addition you will save a considerable number of lives.
This will also take care of much of the problem driving having to do
with talking on phones applying makeup etc. The reason being that the
majority of times I see it as a problem the driver is in the LEFT lane
weaving. If we institute keep right except to pass we can safely blow
by these idiots when we think it is safe to do so rather than having
them hang out next to us.
As for those of you concerned about being stuck in the right lane going
too slowly. I can assure you that if the faster drivers are allowed to
get by, without being roadblocked in the passing lane, you will not
have a buildup of cars that will take 5 minutes to go by in close
proximity to each other.

Then you've never lived in an area where 90% of the traffic is at or
over the speed limit while the other 10% is under the speed limit with
this enforced.

Post by donquijote1954
In addition whenever I have seen the situation described in the
previous paragraph, the right lane is basically doing the speed limit.
Your real complaint is that the speed limits are too low and you want
to hang out in the left lane at a higher speed but don't want to be
courteous and pullover to allow others to pass.'
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/di...w/.ef08fa1/4340

I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right lane
because some asshole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer at the
80 MPH until there is no traffic at all in the right lane.
--
Odinn

"The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot
do." --Walter Bagehot

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

[Bownse]

Post by Odinn
I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right lane
because some asshole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer at the
80 MPH until there is no traffic at all in the right lane.

The actual problem is when the joker in the left lane is doing 52 mph
and won't move over for the people wanting to do 80.

[Odinn]

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn
I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right lane
because some asshole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer at
the 80 MPH until there is no traffic at all in the right lane.

The actual problem is when the joker in the left lane is doing 52 mph
and won't move over for the people wanting to do 80.

Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper
and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick.
--
Odinn

"The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot
do." --Walter Bagehot

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

[The Office Jet]

Post by Odinn

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn
I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right lane
because some asshole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer at
the 80 MPH until there is no traffic at all in the right lane.

The actual problem is when the joker in the left lane is doing 52 mph
and won't move over for the people wanting to do 80.

Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper
and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick.

So, you're that guy. The guy that scares the snot out of people when
they're driving along minding their own business.

[Kitchen Man]

On 24 Mar 2005 05:37:42 -0800 in rec.motorcycles, "The Office Jet"

Post by The Office Jet
So, you're that guy. The guy that scares the snot out of people when
they're driving along minding their own business.

While not condoning the behavior you responded to, I feel compelled to
point out: when motorists are driving along, they should be minding the
road and traffic, not "their own business." If you're hurtling down the
freeway in a dreamlike stupor like Walter Mitty on Prozac, maybe you
*should* get the snot scared out of you, before you crash and kill
someone innocent of a negligent indifference to their piloting of a
massive object energized by a large velocity vector.

[Scott en Aztlán]

On 24 Mar 2005 05:37:42 -0800, "The Office Jet"

Post by The Office Jet

Post by Odinn
Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper
and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick.

So, you're that guy. The guy that scares the snot out of people when
they're driving along minding their own business.

If those people would mind their own business in the correct lane,
then everyone else would be able to mind THEIR own business, as well.

[s***@aol.com]

Post by Scott en Aztlán
If those people would mind their own business in the correct lane,
then everyone else would be able to mind THEIR own business,
as well.

Scott, you are mentally retarded if you believe what you wrote.

It's none of YOUR business what lane other motorists drive in. Read
your California Vehicle Code and you will discover a few interesting
things. For instance, all lanes on the freeway have the SAME speed
limit, unless otherwise marked. And, passing on the right or left is
permitted, as long as you stay in the lanes of travel. And, you can
search the California vehicle Code as long as you want, and you will
NEVER find any proof that the lane closest to the center divider is
the "fast lane". That's just an urban myth. Law abiding drivers have
every right to mind their own business in the lane closest to the
center divider while cruising at the speed limit. That's what the lane
is FOR, it's NOT a passing lane, nor is it your personal race track
where you're allowed to pass everybody on the road and expect them to
get out of your way.

Don't flash your lights at other motorists, expecting them to just get
out of your way. Light flashing on the freeways is illegal and may lead
to incidents of road rage. There is only ONE situation where you can
legally flash your lights or toot your horn when you come up behind a
slower moving vehicle in California. That's when you're on a two-lane
road and you have a quarter of a mile clear space to pass a slow moving
vehicle. That slower driver is supposed to move as far to the right as
possible, but he doesn't have to drive on the shoulder for you. If you
can't pass in that situation, don't even try it.

Finally, the signs that say "Slower Traffic Keep Right" do not refer to
motorists driving in the lane closest to the center divider if they are
driving at the speed limit.

The "Slower Traffic Keep Right" signs mean that busses and trucks and
underpowered vehicles that can't reach the speed limit have to move
over to the right.

Unfortunately, brain dead dipshits like Scott here may be trying to
pass everybody who won't move out of the left lanes. This moron may be
driving 100 mph in what he thinks is "the slow lane". If it's the "slow
lane", why the fuck is Scott driving 100 mph in it?

It's because he's retarded...

[donquijote1954]

Post by s***@aol.com

Post by Scott en Aztlán
If those people would mind their own business in the correct lane,
then everyone else would be able to mind THEIR own business,
as well.

Scott, you are mentally retarded if you believe what you wrote.
It's none of YOUR business what lane other motorists drive in. Read
your California Vehicle Code and you will discover a few interesting
things. For instance, all lanes on the freeway have the SAME speed
limit, unless otherwise marked. And, passing on the right or left is
permitted, as long as you stay in the lanes of travel. And, you can
search the California vehicle Code as long as you want, and you will
NEVER find any proof that the lane closest to the center divider is
the "fast lane". That's just an urban myth. Law abiding drivers have
every right to mind their own business in the lane closest to the
center divider while cruising at the speed limit. That's what the lane
is FOR, it's NOT a passing lane, nor is it your personal race track
where you're allowed to pass everybody on the road and expect them to
get out of your way.

And that seem to me like a recipe for disaster. We got some chaotic
roads, full of road rage, with danger coming on all sides. And on top
of that you are ticketed for speeding, which is a lesser threat to
others by itself.

I think kids can come up with a better system than that. But lawyers
and bureaucrats can't. :(

[s***@aol.com]

Post by donquijote1954

That's what the lane is FOR, it's NOT a passing lane, nor is it > >

your personal race track where you're allowed to pass everybody > > on
the road and expect them to get out of your way.

Post by donquijote1954
And that seem to me like a recipe for disaster. We got some chaotic
roads, full of road rage, with danger coming on all sides. And
on top of that you are ticketed for speeding, which is a
lesser threat to others by itself.
I think kids can come up with a better system than that.
But lawyers and bureaucrats can't. :(

Yeah, I know. You want a "rational" use of America's highways, based
upon the myth of the lane-disciplined German autobahn...

We have a lot of children walking around in adult bodies here in
California. Having had very little discipline in their upbringing, they
believe in moral relativity: whatever they want to do must be OK,
because they want to do it, and they see "everybody else" doing "it",
so why *shouldn't* they do what "everybody else" is doing?

Traffic court judges hear that defense all the time, and the judges
convict the offenders routinely. But an offender can get away with his
bad behavior for years, just by taking traffic school once every 18
months and his license to drive won't be suspended or revoked...

California has its own peculiar set of laws regulating how drivers
shall operate their motor vehicles upon California highways. Allowing
drivers to pass on the right or the left on the freeways is one of the
major differnces between California and New York or Missouri, for
example, or Germany's famous autobahns, where everybody must keep right
except while passing...

New Yorkers used to flashing their lights at cars they are overtaking
even do it in city traffic in Manhattan, if you can imagine some
aggressive moron driving down a city street signed for 35 mph, but he's
doing 60 mph because he sees a gap between him and the car a quarter of
a mile ahead, so the idiot starts flashing his lights as if to say,
"Get out of my way, I'm coming through!"

So, when somebody comes up behind me on a California freeway and starts
flashing his lights, I stay in the lane I'm in and check for New York
license plates when he finally passes me---in a different lane, I'm NOT
going to move over for him just because he's being an asshole about his
*imaginary* "rights"...

And that autobahn rule works fairly well in Germany, as long as traffic
is light. But most drivers in America have never seen the narrow lanes
of the almost empty autobahn, or Italy's empty autostrada, or England
or France's wide open highways between major cities...

First time I ever saw the autobahn, I thought to myself, "That is a
really *small* freeway, it's no wider than the old Pasadena freeway
from Pasadena to Los Angeles that was built in the 1940's or 1950's...

Many drivers will get onto a nearly empty freeway in the early morning
hours just before dawn and drive ten or fifteen miles an hour over the
speed limit and think, "Well, *that's* what the freeways were designed
for, so I can drive 80 miles an hour and get where I'm going really
quick!"

On a recently completed stretch of freeway between Pasadena and San
Bernardino, commuters *ass-umed* that it was somehow "OK" to drive 100
miles per hour because the new road was almost empty. The California
Highway Patrol stopped hundreds of them and helped the traffic courts
empty those morons' wallets...

The fine for driving over 100 mph may be as high as $1000 or six months
in county jail, last time I checked into it...

The highway engineers in California predicted the present day extreme
high traffic density on the freeways when they designed them to *move
cars to their destinations*, not to feed the egos of speed demon
drivers...

So California has six-lane freeways headed from the suburbs to the
skyscrapers downtown where many people work in offices and have to be
at work by 8 AM or 9 AM Monday through Friday, and these office workers
all want to drive by themselves in their own car, and they make a
parking lot out of the freeway at the same time every day, going to
work and coming home, and like little kids, they blame everybody else
while they sit there motionless in traffic...

No amount of autobahn-style "lane discipline" is going to make the
commute any faster, only car pooling and use of public transportation
is going to do that. (Or ride in the car pool lanes
on a motorcycle, while being tailgated by morons in cars who think that
the car pool lane is their own private race track, and that they should
be able to drive 80 or 90 mph and that the cars ahead should pull over
to the right when they flash their lights. Cheezus, what stupidity!)

The price of fuel is so high in European countries, automobiles are so
expensive that only the very rich can afford to drive, so they believe
they should be able to drive as fast as they please, having paid a lot
of money for their vehicle...

And the railroad system still works, so if a citizen of a European
country wants to go somewhere, he can take a train and relax and read a
magazine. Most Europeans would be unwilling to get up at 4:00 AM and
commute an hour each way to go to work, though. If they can't get a job
in their own town, they won't work.

But that rich German Porsche or Mercedes Benz driver heading for the
office in the morning gets on the autobahn and he wants to drive as
fast as he pleases, so he comes up behind somebody in a slower car and
if the driver ahead is still in the process of passing and getting over
to the right, the overtaking driver will turn his left turn signal on
to let the driver ahead know he's there and wants to pass. And the
Germans recently made flashing one's high beams at cars ahead illegal.
At some point the traffic gets so heavy that there is always a line of
cars trying to leap frog their way past a line of slower trucks and
busses...

And, somebody in a big fast car will be wanting to drive 90 or 100 mph,
and they are also supposed to move over into the line of slow moving
and merge with the slow traffic. So this means the driver has to make
sudden movements of the steering wheel at high speeds, instead of just
holding the steering wheel in one position and gruising at 90 mph in
the left hand lane...

I saw a video tape of a Mercedes Benz that crashed while the driver was
just trying to obey the "pass left/drive right" rule. The car started
fish tailing, crashed, turned over...

Then there are the rich sportscar drivers in Italy, where there are
different speed limits based upon the size of the engine in the car.
Little Fiat Pandas were limited to 55 mph last time I was over there,
but cars with bigger engines could go faster...

An American tourist told me that he rented a Fiat in Italy and was
driving in the left hand lane, obeying the speed limit, and a Ferrari
came up behind him and started flashing his lights. When he didn't move
over, the Ferrari driver started bumping his car with his front bumper!

[donquijote1954]

Post by s***@aol.com

Post by donquijote1954

That's what the lane is FOR, it's NOT a passing lane, nor is it >

your personal race track where you're allowed to pass everybody > > on
the road and expect them to get out of your way.

Post by donquijote1954
And that seem to me like a recipe for disaster. We got some chaotic
roads, full of road rage, with danger coming on all sides. And
on top of that you are ticketed for speeding, which is a
lesser threat to others by itself.
I think kids can come up with a better system than that.
But lawyers and bureaucrats can't. :(

Yeah, I know. You want a "rational" use of America's highways, based
upon the myth of the lane-disciplined German autobahn...
We have a lot of children walking around in adult bodies here in
California. Having had very little discipline in their upbringing, they
believe in moral relativity: whatever they want to do must be OK,
because they want to do it, and they see "everybody else" doing "it",
so why *shouldn't* they do what "everybody else" is doing?

I see a big mass of vehicles zigzaging around each other, the big ones
posing a greater threat on the little ones. In other words: It's a VERY
SCARY PLACE TO BE IN.

Whether the Autobahn is good or not, or Mercedes' drivers are assholes
or not, American highways--and byways--remain a jungle. Lane discipline
is the very simple step that can make our highways faster and safer.

Enforcing speed limits while ignoring lane discipline is very
stupid--but a profittable industry. ;)

'I watched the television show "Modern Marvels" on The History
Channel last night, on the German Autobahn. They started out by showing
a camera crew ride along in a 520 hp RUF Porsche Carerra Turbo that got
up to 212 mph. The other vehicles, which were all going way faster than
on an American Interstate, looked like they were standing still in
comparison.

Here are some facts I noted:

The police strictly enforce rules designed to make people pay attention
when they drive, the most important of which is lane discipline. No
matter what speed you are going, you must keep right except to pass, no
exceptions. Before and during your pass you are expected to watch for
faster cars which may be approaching. You must pass with urgency, and
at no time may you linger in the left lane, even for a second.

There are absolutely no speed limits on more than half of the Autobahn
(thousands of miles). Most traffic travels around 110 mph. Sometimes
traffic flows at 130 or 140. Occasionally, faster cars come through.
This is not dangerous because of the aforementioned lane discipline.

The system works! The rate of fatalities on the German Autobahn is 0.74
per 100 million miles traveled, compared to 0.86 for the American
Interstate system.

Obviously, creating and enforcing speed limits is not the best answer
to creating a safer and more efficient roadway system.'

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef08fa1/4252

[Bownse]

Post by donquijote1954
Obviously, creating and enforcing speed limits is not the best answer
to creating a safer and more efficient roadway system.'

speed limits aren't about safety. they're about revenue. otherwise the
sop procedure for ALL federal standards would be followed (survey the
stretch of road and post the limit at the 85% of what the drivers are
running at). instead they under post the limits to make ticketing
easier. with radar and lidar guns, traffic court time is easier and
doesn't require an intelligent case to be presented by the city's
attorney or for the officer to present a moderately complex testimony.
Sit in traffic court and listen to the city lawyer talk to the city cop
and they repeat the same questions over each time. It's rote and doesn't
require conscious thought after a while. Taking someone to trial for
failure to yield, obstructing the flow of traffic, or careless
(inattentive) driving (cell phone, kids, makeup, reading, etc while
driving) take more effort. They let the safety issues slide because it
takes longer in court for each of those cases. An extra 10 minutes per
case for safety issues means 3 fewer speeding cased pumped through the
system for the cash flow.

[donquijote1954]

Post by Bownse

Post by donquijote1954
Obviously, creating and enforcing speed limits is not the best answer
to creating a safer and more efficient roadway system.'

speed limits aren't about safety. they're about revenue. otherwise the
sop procedure for ALL federal standards would be followed (survey the
stretch of road and post the limit at the 85% of what the drivers are
running at). instead they under post the limits to make ticketing
easier. with radar and lidar guns, traffic court time is easier and
doesn't require an intelligent case to be presented by the city's
attorney or for the officer to present a moderately complex

testimony.

Post by Bownse
Sit in traffic court and listen to the city lawyer talk to the city cop
and they repeat the same questions over each time. It's rote and doesn't
require conscious thought after a while. Taking someone to trial for
failure to yield, obstructing the flow of traffic, or careless
(inattentive) driving (cell phone, kids, makeup, reading, etc while
driving) take more effort. They let the safety issues slide because it
takes longer in court for each of those cases. An extra 10 minutes per
case for safety issues means 3 fewer speeding cased pumped through the
system for the cash flow.
--
Mark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX
http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org
WANTED: Meaningful overnight relationship.

You have explained quite well how the MACHINE works. Of course, you
provide the oil for it to run smoothly. The same principle can be
applied to the prison industrial complex or war machine or health
industry. They are self-perpetuating machines and turn out big bucks.
;)

[Bownse]

Post by donquijote1954

Post by Bownse

Post by donquijote1954
Obviously, creating and enforcing speed limits is not the best

answer

Post by Bownse

Post by donquijote1954
to creating a safer and more efficient roadway system.'

speed limits aren't about safety. they're about revenue. otherwise

the

Post by Bownse
sop procedure for ALL federal standards would be followed (survey the
stretch of road and post the limit at the 85% of what the drivers are
running at). instead they under post the limits to make ticketing
easier. with radar and lidar guns, traffic court time is easier and
doesn't require an intelligent case to be presented by the city's
attorney or for the officer to present a moderately complex

testimony.

Post by Bownse
Sit in traffic court and listen to the city lawyer talk to the city

cop

Post by Bownse
and they repeat the same questions over each time. It's rote and

doesn't

Post by Bownse
require conscious thought after a while. Taking someone to trial for
failure to yield, obstructing the flow of traffic, or careless
(inattentive) driving (cell phone, kids, makeup, reading, etc while
driving) take more effort. They let the safety issues slide because

it

Post by Bownse
takes longer in court for each of those cases. An extra 10 minutes

per

Post by Bownse
case for safety issues means 3 fewer speeding cased pumped through

the

Post by Bownse
system for the cash flow.
--
Mark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX
http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org
WANTED: Meaningful overnight relationship.

You have explained quite well how the MACHINE works. Of course, you
provide the oil for it to run smoothly. The same principle can be
applied to the prison industrial complex or war machine or health
industry. They are self-perpetuating machines and turn out big bucks.
;)

"You" in the general sense; not "me" specifically. I go to traffic court
for entertainment purposes. The number of people who testify against
themselves is amazing.

Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead?
Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for
work! [admitting guilt with his statement]
Judge: [Bangs gavel] $200 please!

[Big Bill]

Post by Bownse
Judge: You are charged with 85 in a 60, how do you plead?
Clueless defendant: Not guilty! I was only doing 70 and was late for
work! [admitting guilt with his statement]
Judge: [Bangs gavel] $200 please!
--

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.
If you're charged with doing 80, you can't be found guilty of that
charge by admitting to doing 70.
You might be able to plea bargain before (or even, in some cases,
during) the hearing, but you can't be conviced of a charge until
you've been found guilty *of that charged offence*.
Doing 70 is not the same as doing 80.

[s***@aol.com]

Post by donquijote1954
'I watched the television show "Modern Marvels" on The History
Channel last night, on the German Autobahn. They started out
by showing a camera crew ride along in a 520 hp RUF Porsche Carerra

Turbo that got up to 212 mph. The other vehicles, which

Post by donquijote1954
were all going way faster than on an American Interstate,
looked like they were standing still in comparison.

Obviously, the situation wasn't safe for the driver going twice as fast
as traffic, or for the drivers in the "slower" cars. Shouldn't those
drivers have been told to get the heck off the autobahn, because
somebody rich and important was coming through?

I remember reading an article in Road & Track several years ago. R&T
is a magazine that appeals to the rich and arrogant motorist that
thinks he should be able to do as he pleases because he has a lot of
money to spend. And R&T tends to make people of ordinary sensibilities
evolve into arrogant assholes too, drivers with fantasies of becoming
Formula 1 world champions eat R&T up...

But the article was about the latest greatest limited edition
twin-turbo Porsche that would go 200 mph on the autobahn. And, R&T, in
a rare lucid moment, remarked that the Porsche wasn't hard to drive at
all, that it was so stable at speed, somebody's *grandmother* could
drive it.

R&T went on to say that the grandmother would need some experience with
high speed driving in order to *stop* the car, though. She'd also need
eyes like an eagle to see emerging traffic situations a mile ahead.
That's how long it takes to stop from 200 mph...

Post by donquijote1954
The police strictly enforce rules designed to make people
pay attention when they drive, the most important of which
is lane discipline. No matter what speed you are going,
you must keep right except to pass, no exceptions. Before
and during your pass you are expected to watch for faster
cars which may be approaching. You must pass with urgency, and
at no time may you linger in the left lane, even for a second.

Yes, Germany has been a very authoritarian country to live in since
feudal warlords built castles on the Rhine after the break up of
Charlemagne's empire. Lesser nobles swore alleigance to more powerful
nobles and the peasants doffed their caps and bowed and scraped to all
nobility and authority...

After the French revolution came the Enlightenment and ordinary people
realized they could have independant thought and beliefs. But the
Germans had been subservient to nobility for centuries, and even after
their own revoultion in the 1840's, the German people were like
tigers that had escaped from the zoo and returned to the safety of
their own cage. They remained subservient to the nobility and to
authority, leading very regulated lives prescribed by law. This strange
deference to authority is called "orbrigkeit", and researchers have
called the strange social evolution of Germany after its revolution
"der deutscher sonderweg". It's Germany's "other way". They do
everything a different way from everybody else.

Germans also live in Switzerland, as Swiss citizens. People who have
observed the German Swiss say that they all behave as though they were
cops, watching their neighbors and denouncing them. It's no wonder that
Germans treasure their privacy so much. With every one of their
neighbors being a snitch, Germans keep their doors closed,
and their window shades drawn.

Post by donquijote1954
There are absolutely no speed limits on more than half of
the Autobahn (thousands of miles). Most traffic travels
around 110 mph. Sometimes traffic flows at 130 or 140.
Occasionally, faster cars come through. This is not
dangerous because of the aforementioned lane discipline.

There is hardly any traffic at all on the autobahn. It's nearly empty.
Rich people who drive their big Mercedes Benzes will be familiar with
the stretch of autobahn they drive on daily, so they will know when to
slow down for the exits, unlike Americans on their highways at home,
who find themselves passing the exit they wanted because they are going
too fast and are in the wrong lane.

And, lane discipline does exist here in America if you pay attention to
what's happening. On a four lane freeway, big trucks are restricted to
driving only in the righthand two lanes, at 55 MPH. Talk to any
trucker, and he will refer to those lanes as "the truck lanes", and he
will complain about car drivers passing them at high speed and
inserting the car into a small space in front of the truck where the
big rig driver can't even see it.

These big rigs weigh 80,000 pounds fully loaded. The driver can't *see*
the road for 100 feet directly in front of him. It takes *forever* to
stop a big rig, and, if the trailer gets out from behind the tractor,
the whole rig "jack knifes", it folds up like a pocket knife, and turns
over...

Would you really want rich, arrogant morons driving high performance
cars that they're buying on *credit* passing big rig trucks and
swerving in front of them and slowing down?

Cheezus, why don't you just give the morons Indy cars and wave the
green flag and tell them there's free beer in the next town?

Post by donquijote1954
The system works! The rate of fatalities on the German Autobahn
is 0.74 per 100 million miles traveled, compared to 0.86 for
the American Interstate system.

The statisticians can point to the numbers, but they can't prove what
has influenced the numbers, whether it's "lane discipline" or if it's
just the fact that Germans drive a whole lot less on roads that aren't
as crowded with traffic...

But American roads have lots of motorists that don't think they are
born to be cops. To the contrary, they believe that if there is no cop
watching them, they should be able to do what they please...

And, the Germans have historically shrugged their shoulders and done
what unjust laws told them they had to do. The inherent "rightness" of
the law was used as a defense by some of the accused at the Nuremberg
trials. They said, "It's the law, I had to obey it, or they would have
shot me."

[Ari Rankum]

Post by s***@aol.com

Post by donquijote1954
'I watched the television show "Modern Marvels" on The History
Channel last night, on the German Autobahn. They started out
by showing a camera crew ride along in a 520 hp RUF Porsche Carerra

Turbo that got up to 212 mph. The other vehicles, which

Post by donquijote1954
were all going way faster than on an American Interstate,
looked like they were standing still in comparison.

Obviously, the situation wasn't safe for the driver going twice as fast
as traffic, or for the drivers in the "slower" cars. Shouldn't those
drivers have been told to get the heck off the autobahn, because
somebody rich and important was coming through?
I remember reading an article in Road & Track several years ago. R&T
is a magazine that appeals to the rich and arrogant motorist that
thinks he should be able to do as he pleases because he has a lot of
money to spend. And R&T tends to make people of ordinary sensibilities
evolve into arrogant assholes too, drivers with fantasies of becoming
Formula 1 world champions eat R&T up...
But the article was about the latest greatest limited edition
twin-turbo Porsche that would go 200 mph on the autobahn. And, R&T, in
a rare lucid moment, remarked that the Porsche wasn't hard to drive at
all, that it was so stable at speed, somebody's *grandmother* could
drive it.
R&T went on to say that the grandmother would need some experience with
high speed driving in order to *stop* the car, though. She'd also need
eyes like an eagle to see emerging traffic situations a mile ahead.
That's how long it takes to stop from 200 mph...

Post by donquijote1954
The police strictly enforce rules designed to make people
pay attention when they drive, the most important of which
is lane discipline. No matter what speed you are going,
you must keep right except to pass, no exceptions. Before
and during your pass you are expected to watch for faster
cars which may be approaching. You must pass with urgency, and
at no time may you linger in the left lane, even for a second.

Yes, Germany has been a very authoritarian country to live in since
feudal warlords built castles on the Rhine after the break up of
Charlemagne's empire. Lesser nobles swore alleigance to more powerful
nobles and the peasants doffed their caps and bowed and scraped to all
nobility and authority...
After the French revolution came the Enlightenment and ordinary people
realized they could have independant thought and beliefs. But the
Germans had been subservient to nobility for centuries, and even after
their own revoultion in the 1840's, the German people were like
tigers that had escaped from the zoo and returned to the safety of
their own cage. They remained subservient to the nobility and to
authority, leading very regulated lives prescribed by law. This strange
deference to authority is called "orbrigkeit", and researchers have
called the strange social evolution of Germany after its revolution
"der deutscher sonderweg". It's Germany's "other way". They do
everything a different way from everybody else.
Germans also live in Switzerland, as Swiss citizens. People who have
observed the German Swiss say that they all behave as though they were
cops, watching their neighbors and denouncing them. It's no wonder that
Germans treasure their privacy so much. With every one of their
neighbors being a snitch, Germans keep their doors closed,
and their window shades drawn.

Post by donquijote1954
There are absolutely no speed limits on more than half of
the Autobahn (thousands of miles). Most traffic travels
around 110 mph. Sometimes traffic flows at 130 or 140.
Occasionally, faster cars come through. This is not
dangerous because of the aforementioned lane discipline.

There is hardly any traffic at all on the autobahn. It's nearly empty.
Rich people who drive their big Mercedes Benzes will be familiar with
the stretch of autobahn they drive on daily, so they will know when to
slow down for the exits, unlike Americans on their highways at home,
who find themselves passing the exit they wanted because they are going
too fast and are in the wrong lane.
And, lane discipline does exist here in America if you pay attention to
what's happening. On a four lane freeway, big trucks are restricted to
driving only in the righthand two lanes, at 55 MPH. Talk to any
trucker, and he will refer to those lanes as "the truck lanes", and he
will complain about car drivers passing them at high speed and
inserting the car into a small space in front of the truck where the
big rig driver can't even see it.
These big rigs weigh 80,000 pounds fully loaded. The driver can't *see*
the road for 100 feet directly in front of him. It takes *forever* to
stop a big rig, and, if the trailer gets out from behind the tractor,
the whole rig "jack knifes", it folds up like a pocket knife, and turns
over...
Would you really want rich, arrogant morons driving high performance
cars that they're buying on *credit* passing big rig trucks and
swerving in front of them and slowing down?
Cheezus, why don't you just give the morons Indy cars and wave the
green flag and tell them there's free beer in the next town?

Post by donquijote1954
The system works! The rate of fatalities on the German Autobahn
is 0.74 per 100 million miles traveled, compared to 0.86 for
the American Interstate system.

The statisticians can point to the numbers, but they can't prove what
has influenced the numbers, whether it's "lane discipline" or if it's
just the fact that Germans drive a whole lot less on roads that aren't
as crowded with traffic...
But American roads have lots of motorists that don't think they are
born to be cops. To the contrary, they believe that if there is no cop
watching them, they should be able to do what they please...
And, the Germans have historically shrugged their shoulders and done
what unjust laws told them they had to do. The inherent "rightness" of
the law was used as a defense by some of the accused at the Nuremberg
trials. They said, "It's the law, I had to obey it, or they would have
shot me."

|---|---|---|---|---|---|
0 ^10
|
|

Troll-O-Meter - there is no substitute

<Darth Vader>
The Force is strong in this one.
</Darth Vader>

[donquijote1954]

Post by s***@aol.com

Post by donquijote1954
'I watched the television show "Modern Marvels" on The History
Channel last night, on the German Autobahn. They started out
by showing a camera crew ride along in a 520 hp RUF Porsche Carerra

Turbo that got up to 212 mph. The other vehicles, which

Post by donquijote1954
were all going way faster than on an American Interstate,
looked like they were standing still in comparison.

Obviously, the situation wasn't safe for the driver going twice as fast
as traffic, or for the drivers in the "slower" cars. Shouldn't those
drivers have been told to get the heck off the autobahn, because
somebody rich and important was coming through?

(German bashing cut out)

It ain't only the Germans who do it right but even the fickle French as
the Canadian professional trucker pointed out.

Actually it is truckers who mostly obey the laws in North America, and
I'm sure our anarchic-chaotic behavior is more than an amusing nuisance
to them. Perhaps it is their worst nightmare.

[Bownse]

Post by s***@aol.com
It's no wonder that
Germans treasure their privacy so much. With every one of their
neighbors being a snitch, Germans keep their doors closed,
and their window shades drawn.

So it's my maternal, Penn. Deutsch, side of the family that influenced
this tendency? I thought perhaps it was the paternal Cherokee influence
of putting someone from low population density areas into a city with
close neighbors that did it.

[Bownse]

Post by s***@aol.com
So, when somebody comes up behind me on a California freeway and starts
flashing his lights, I stay in the lane I'm in and check for New York
license plates when he finally passes me---in a different lane, I'm NOT
going to move over for him just because he's being an asshole about his
*imaginary* "rights"...

I know someone else like you, too. Self appointed traffic cops are
nothing more than punk assed pukes that used to have their milk money
taken by the grade school bully.

[s***@aol.com]

Post by Bownse
I know someone else like you, too. Self appointed traffic cops are
nothing more than punk assed pukes that used to have their
milk money taken by the grade school bully.

When there aren't enough cops to arrest scofflaws, honest citizens must
be vigilant, even if that means resisting psychos on the highway
passively or actively...

Milk money. That reminds me of my childhood...

We didn't have milk money when I was a kid in elementary school. A lot
of the kids were violent little Okie monsters that would steal anything
not nailed down. So we had no milk money in our pockets. We had to give
our milk money to the teacher every Monday morning and she would write
out a ticket with our name on it and the lady in the cafeteria would
punch our ticket when she gave us our lunch...

[Bruno]

Post by s***@aol.com
We didn't have milk money when I was a kid in elementary school. A lot
of the kids were violent little Okie monsters that would steal anything
not nailed down. So we had no milk money in our pockets. We had to give
our milk money to the teacher every Monday morning and she would write
out a ticket with our name on it and the lady in the cafeteria would
punch our ticket when she gave us our lunch...

And nobody did anything about the little Okie monsters. Brilliant.

[N8N]

Post by s***@aol.com

Post by Bownse
I know someone else like you, too. Self appointed traffic cops are
nothing more than punk assed pukes that used to have their
milk money taken by the grade school bully.

When there aren't enough cops to arrest scofflaws, honest citizens must
be vigilant, even if that means resisting psychos on the highway
passively or actively...

Cool. So you're advocating that I have the right to PIT you when you
fail to follow traffic law (i.e. KRETP.)

Why don't you and Scott Weisass get a room and let the adults talk
amongst themselves.

nate

[Keith Schiffner]

Post by N8N

Post by s***@aol.com

Post by Bownse
I know someone else like you, too. Self
appointed traffic cops are
nothing more than punk assed pukes that used
to have their
milk money taken by the grade school bully.

When there aren't enough cops to arrest
scofflaws, honest citizens

must

Post by s***@aol.com
be vigilant, even if that means resisting
psychos on the highway
passively or actively...

Cool. So you're advocating that I have the
right to PIT you when you
fail to follow traffic law (i.e. KRETP.)

You can TRY. Last moron that did it almost ate a
guard rail...not my problem if they can't drive
for shit.

Post by N8N
Why don't you and Scott Weisass get a room and
let the adults talk
amongst themselves.

Junior, you aren't mature enough to even be in the
discussion so go home to your federally mandated
nanny and suck on the government teat like a good
serf.

[Bownse]

Post by s***@aol.com

Post by Bownse
I know someone else like you, too. Self appointed traffic cops are
nothing more than punk assed pukes that used to have their
milk money taken by the grade school bully.

When there aren't enough cops to arrest scofflaws, honest citizens must
be vigilant, even if that means resisting psychos on the highway
passively or actively...
Milk money. That reminds me of my childhood...
We didn't have milk money when I was a kid in elementary school. A lot
of the kids were violent little Okie monsters that would steal anything
not nailed down. So we had no milk money in our pockets. We had to give
our milk money to the teacher every Monday morning and she would write
out a ticket with our name on it and the lady in the cafeteria would
punch our ticket when she gave us our lunch...

I bet you got your ticket punched several different ways.

[Bownse]

Post by donquijote1954
And that seem to me like a recipe for disaster. We got some chaotic
roads, full of road rage, with danger coming on all sides. And on top
of that you are ticketed for speeding, which is a lesser threat to
others by itself.
I think kids can come up with a better system than that. But lawyers
and bureaucrats can't. :(

"Road Rage" is bullox fabricated by out of work psychologists who wanted
some TV face time. It's an excuse for people to be rude. Rudeness
exists. Road rage doesn't except in the minds of the media and those who
hand on their every word.
--
Mark Johnson, Ft. Worth, TX
http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org
"As usual, no warranty, including fitness for a particular purpose or
usefulness of information, express or implied. This product not tested
on animals, college students are cheaper and nobody cares what you do to
them, professional driver, closed course, optional equipment shown,
serving suggestion, do not apply to broken skin, if condition persists,
consult a physician, not for internal use only, tax, tag, license fee
extra, prices slightly higher in ak, hi, and pr, void where prohibited,
must be 18 to enter, must be present to win, don't put that in your
mouth, you don't know where it's been, call your mother, she worries, do
not taunt happy fun ball, do not look into laser with remaining eye,
don't thank me, I'm here to help." - Steve Bream

[donquijote1954]

Post by Bownse

Post by donquijote1954
And that seem to me like a recipe for disaster. We got some chaotic
roads, full of road rage, with danger coming on all sides. And on top
of that you are ticketed for speeding, which is a lesser threat to
others by itself.
I think kids can come up with a better system than that. But

lawyers

Post by Bownse

Post by donquijote1954
and bureaucrats can't. :(

"Road Rage" is bullox fabricated by out of work psychologists who wanted
some TV face time. It's an excuse for people to be rude. Rudeness
exists. Road rage doesn't except in the minds of the media and those who
hand on their every word.

Lack of lane discipline results in road rage, and it results in
accidents, and they in turn feed the monster. Of course, you can hire a
lawyer who will make sure the money doesn't go wasted by keeping a
large chunk of it. ;)

AUTO ACCIDENTS IN FLORIDA
By Anthony J. Comparetto, Esq.

I will never forget this eye opening story about how the auto accident
system worked. _I call it a system because it really has become "big
business"_ A friend of mine, who lived in another part of the state,
was injured in a car accident. He believed he had done everything
correct in his case. He had hired a competent attorney, seen the right
doctors to treat him and notified his insurance company correctly. He
thought everything would go smoothly. Of course when he called for my
opinion I had to tell him the first secret of auto accidents in
Florida.

http://www.helpwithlaw.com/autoaccidents.htm

[Bownse]

Post by donquijote1954

Post by Bownse

Post by donquijote1954
And that seem to me like a recipe for disaster. We got some chaotic
roads, full of road rage, with danger coming on all sides. And on

top

Post by Bownse

Post by donquijote1954
of that you are ticketed for speeding, which is a lesser threat to
others by itself.
I think kids can come up with a better system than that. But

lawyers

Post by Bownse

Post by donquijote1954
and bureaucrats can't. :(

"Road Rage" is bullox fabricated by out of work psychologists who

wanted

Post by Bownse
some TV face time. It's an excuse for people to be rude. Rudeness
exists. Road rage doesn't except in the minds of the media and those

who

Post by Bownse
hand on their every word.

Lack of lane discipline results in road rage, and it results in
accidents, and they in turn feed the monster. Of course, you can hire a
lawyer who will make sure the money doesn't go wasted by keeping a
large chunk of it. ;)
AUTO ACCIDENTS IN FLORIDA
By Anthony J. Comparetto, Esq.
I will never forget this eye opening story about how the auto accident
system worked. _I call it a system because it really has become "big
business"_ A friend of mine, who lived in another part of the state,
was injured in a car accident. He believed he had done everything
correct in his case. He had hired a competent attorney, seen the right
doctors to treat him and notified his insurance company correctly. He
thought everything would go smoothly. Of course when he called for my
opinion I had to tell him the first secret of auto accidents in
Florida.
http://www.helpwithlaw.com/autoaccidents.htm

So you make a living off of the perpetuation of the "Road Rage" myth?
Got it.

[Turby]

Post by s***@aol.com

Post by Scott en Aztlán
If those people would mind their own business in the correct lane,
then everyone else would be able to mind THEIR own business,
as well.

Scott, you are mentally retarded if you believe what you wrote.
It's none of YOUR business what lane other motorists drive in. Read
your California Vehicle Code and you will discover a few interesting
things. For instance, all lanes on the freeway have the SAME speed
limit, unless otherwise marked. And, passing on the right or left is
permitted, as long as you stay in the lanes of travel. And, you can
search the California vehicle Code as long as you want, and you will
NEVER find any proof that the lane closest to the center divider is
the "fast lane". That's just an urban myth.

Wrong. Those signs that say "SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT" are not just
suggestions:

"CVC 21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any
vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal
speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be
driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable
to the right-hand edge or curb, except when overtaking and passing
another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for
a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway."

"Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits" means that even if you
are going 10mph _over_ the speed limit, if surrounding traffic is
going 15 over, you must move to the right.

FWIW, the search took about 3 minutes to find the relevant section.

[donquijote1954]

Post by Turby
"CVC 21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any
vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal
speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be
driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable
to the right-hand edge or curb, except when overtaking and passing
another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for
a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway."
"Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits" means that even if you
are going 10mph _over_ the speed limit, if surrounding traffic is
going 15 over, you must move to the right.
FWIW, the search took about 3 minutes to find the relevant section.

Maybe it's difficult to understand to the dim wits. It should say:
"Assholes keep right!"

[s***@aol.com]

Post by Turby
"CVC 21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any
vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal
speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be
driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close
as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, except when
overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the
same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an
intersection or into a private road or driveway."

Pay attention, now, sonny. That section is obviously talking about a
*highway* with two lanes or more of traffic in either direction. It's
not talking about a *freeway* with controlled access, where most morons
think the leftmost lane is some sort of "passing lane" or "fast lane"
and do all the highbeam flashing and psycho posturing that weirdos do
on the freeway...

If the highway has only one lane in each direction, the slower motorist
has to move over as far to the right as possible to let law-abiding
traffic go by, the slow driver can't be sightseeing or birdwatching or
cruising for hookers on the side of the road, he has to keep up to a
reasonable speed that other law-abiding motorists would drive at...

If the *highway* in question is a 4-lane, non-access controlled
highway, the overtaking driver can pass on the left or right side,
when the safe opportunity presents itself, so the overtaken driver
shouldn't have to do anything, unless he's afraid the drooling idiot
behind him flashing his lights has a gun or some other weapon...

The jerkoffs that come charging up behind law-abiding drivers and flash
their lights expecting everybody to get out of their way because they
are "coming through" are usually doing this illegal stuff on California
*freeways*, though...

And then there is a key phrase in the section. "The normal speed of
traffic" doesn't refer to a daisy chain of aggressive morons bent on
psyching out the cars ahead of them. "Normal speed" doesn't include any
speed in excess of the maximum speed limit. If there is so much traffic
every day during rush hour that the normal speed of traffic drops down
to 25 mph, the section you cited also means that a motorist can't drive
at 25 mph on a day when traffic *isn't* heavy, he has to drive what the
rest of the drivers want to drive, unless they want to exceed the
maximum speed limit. But then he still doesn't have to move over for
assholes when there are multiple lanes of traffic in both directions...

(Not withstanding that last remark about tailgating assholes, if you
talk to a cop about what you should do when some nutcase starts
tailgating you and flashing his lights, the cop will probably tell you
that you *should* move over for the crazy guy and let him go by.
Cops are basically lazy, they don't want to have to write reports about
incidents of road rage, they don't want to have to respond to crime
scenes or the scenes of accident where some innocent law abiding
citizen gets killed by a speeding psycho.)

If you get caught driving in a wolf pack of excessive speeders and the
highway patrolman feels like pulling over the whole pack and spending
an hour writing every one of the idiots a citation, he'll do that. And
when those turkeys get into court and try to tell the judge that they
were just "keeping up with the flow of traffic", the judge will tell
them that they cannot decide, individually, or as a group, to drive
faster than the maximum speed limit, or the prima facie speed limit if
weather or road conditions indicate the need to drive slower than the
maximum permissable speed...

Post by Turby
"Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits" means that even
if you are going 10mph _over_ the speed limit, if
surrounding traffic is going 15 over, you must move to the right.

NO, IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT AT ALL!. It means that if you are on a highway
and you're surrounded by a dense fog bank (or whatever) and you think
it's only safe to drive at X miles per hour (but that speed is slower
than the maximum speed limit) and the dipshits around you think they
can drive at the maximum speed limit or faster (like they do when the
cops aren't watching), then you should get over and let the fools go
by! And let the cops and the ambulances and the tow trucks pick up the
pieces down the road...

Post by Turby
FWIW, the search took about 3 minutes to find the relevant section.

Yabbot, it took me 20 minutes to interpret it for you, and you need to
study it. Maybe tattoo it on your hand so you can look at it while
you're pulling your pud, you silly wanker!

[Kitchen Man]

On 25 Mar 2005 06:37:14 -0800 in rec.motorcycles,

Post by s***@aol.com

Post by Turby
"CVC 21654. (a) Notwithstanding the prima facie speed limits, any
vehicle proceeding upon a highway at a speed less than the normal
speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time shall be
driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close
as practicable to the right-hand edge or curb, except when
overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the
same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an
intersection or into a private road or driveway."

Pay attention, now, sonny. That section is obviously talking about a
*highway* with two lanes or more of traffic in either direction. It's
not talking about a *freeway* with controlled access, where most morons
think the leftmost lane is some sort of "passing lane" or "fast lane"
and do all the highbeam flashing and psycho posturing that weirdos do
on the freeway...
If the highway has only one lane in each direction, the slower motorist
has to move over as far to the right as possible to let law-abiding
traffic go by, the slow driver can't be sightseeing or birdwatching or
cruising for hookers on the side of the road, he has to keep up to a
reasonable speed that other law-abiding motorists would drive at...

Wow. It is amazing how you speak with such authority, with so little
evidence to back up your faulty opinions. Here a man quoted the
California Vehicle Code, and you respond that it doesn't apply to you,
because you think a "freeway" is not a "highway." Well, at least you
have established your credibility beyond a shadow of a doubt.

As far as your comment about highways with one lane in each direction,
the driving behavior you claim to be sanctioned by the law is, in fact,
illegal, unless: there is a slow vehicle turnout, or driving on the
shoulder for slow traffic is permitted.

Perhaps you'd like to submit an opinion on this item: if it is, as you
say, the law that all drivers may drive as slow as they wish in any lane
of any highway, why then are there laws that regulate that slower
traffic must keep right? Why then are there minimum speed laws? Why
are there turnouts that, legally speaking, must be used when traffic is
being impeded by slower vehicles?

For your final assignment, chew on this tidbit from page 16 of the Utah
Driver Handbook regarding proper use of lanes:

"6. You must yield the left lane on a multiple lane highway to vehicles
approaching you from the rear."

And this bit from the Washington Driver Guide:

"_Passing_: On a road with two lanes traveling in the same direction,
the left-hand lane is intended to be used for passing slower vehicles."

Now, I will consider that you are mistaken, and have now been shown to
be mistaken by the vehicle codes of three different states. A mature
adult will admit his error, and strive in the future to obey the laws of
the highway, and cease to be a dangerous hazard. If you persist in your
flawed arguments, participants on the newsgroups will be free to
consider that:

1) You are a bone-headed idiot who drives in this inconsiderate, illegal
and dangerous manner on a regular basis, and should have his thick skull
pummeled with a boot heel until his brain functionality is no longer
sufficient to allow issuance of a driver's license, or

2) You are a slimy internet troll, whose only interest is in misleading
motorists into exhibiting inconsiderate, illegal and dangerous behavior
while driving on the highways.

Not much I can do about case 1, but case two has been handled by actual
reference to the laws of the highway. Die, troll scumbag, die!

[s***@aol.com]

Post by Kitchen Man
Wow. It is amazing how you speak with such authority, with
so little evidence to back up your faulty opinions. Here a
man quoted the California Vehicle Code, and you respond that
it doesn't apply to you, because you think a "freeway" is
not a "highway."

No, go back and read what I explained to Turby, who misunderstood the
code section he cited, in the context of the rest of the Rules of the
Road. I *never* said that the section didn't apply to me, I told Turby
what the section meant, in the context referenced and the situation of
crowded California freeways...

Post by Kitchen Man
As far as your comment about highways with one lane in
each direction, the driving behavior you claim to be sanctioned by >

the law is, in fact, illegal, unless: there is a slow

Post by Kitchen Man
vehicle turnout, or driving on the shoulder for slow traffic
is permitted.

The CVC requires the overtaken motorist to drive as far to the right as
practicable, but doesn't require him to pull off the road for an
approaching psycho. In the case of mountain roads, where there are
turnouts, the overtaken driver is supposed to use the pullout if five
overtaking cars are behind him. There is a problem with pullouts
though. Truck and RV drivers don't want to actually *stop* in the
pullout and let traffic go by, they will frequently keep rolling to the
end of the pullout and then try to move back into the
lane they were in, even though this means cutting off one of the faster
cars. So, psychos aren't just in Mercedes Benzes and Porsches, they are
also in Winnebagos...

Post by Kitchen Man
Perhaps you'd like to submit an opinion on this item: if it is,
as you say, the law that all drivers may drive as slow as
they wish in any lane of any highway, why then are there laws
that regulate that slower traffic must keep right?

I never said that drivers could drive as slowly as they wished in any
lane on the highway. "Slower traffic keep right" applies to trucks and
busses and underpowered vehicles that can't keep up to the speed limit
on the flat or while climbing a grade. It DOES NOT apply to motorists
that are proceeding at the maximum speed allowed, just because an
overtaking psycho imagines that the lane he's in is
"his lane"...

Post by Kitchen Man
Why then are there minimum speed laws?

Show me a sign that has a "minimum" allowable speed limit, anywhere in
California. It's up to a law enforcement officer's judgement to decide
that some slow moving vehicle is impeding the flow of traffic.
The number of citations written for that are probably vanishingly
small. I listened to one case in court whether the officer had pulled
the bogus offense of "leading too close" straight out of his ass, when
he should have cited the tail gater for "following too close." That
case was dismissed...

Post by Kitchen Man
Why are there turnouts that, legally speaking, must be used
when traffic is being impeded by slower vehicles?

It's obvious that the pullouts are for slow moving vehicles that are
heavily laden or lack enough power to climb the grades on mountain
roads. If I'm driving at the prima facie speed limit on a mountain road
and some asshole testing the handling of his new sportscar comes up
behind me flashing his lights and waving his dick out the window, I
don't have to pull over onto the shoulder for him, I can wait for the
next pullout...

Post by Kitchen Man
For your final assignment, chew on this tidbit from page 16 of
the Utah Driver Handbook regarding proper use of lanes: "6.
You must yield the left lane on a multiple lane highway to
vehicles approaching you from the rear."

I don't live in Utah, and I have only driven in Utah about three times
in my whole life. I was stopped two of those three times for driving
over the speed limit, not for failure to yield to overtaking
screwballs. Utah seems to have enough law enforcement officers to deal
with their traffic problems, such as they are...

Does Utah even have any freeways, where belligerent psychos think
everybody has to get out of their way?

Post by Kitchen Man
And this bit from the Washington Driver Guide: "_Passing_: On
a road with two lanes traveling in the same direction, the
left-> hand lane is intended to be used for passing
slower vehicles."

I don't live in Washingston. I live in California. Most of the
motorcycle riders who regularly post to rec.motorcycles where I am
sending this message, probably live in California, where about 25% of
all motorcycles in the USA are registered...

I have only driven in Washington three times, and I got stopped twice,
since there are plenty of law enforcement types in Washington to handle
traffic situations. Neither of the stops had anything to do with
failure to yield to overtaking psychos...

Post by Kitchen Man
Now, I will consider that you are mistaken, and have now
been shown to be mistaken by the vehicle codes of three
different states. A mature adult will admit his error, and
strive in the future to obey the laws of the highway, and
cease to be a dangerous hazard. If you persist in your
flawed arguments, participants on the newsgroups will be free to
1) You are a bone-headed idiot who drives in this
inconsiderate, illegal and dangerous manner on a regular
basis, > and should have his thick skull pummeled with a
boot heel until his brain functionality is no longer
sufficient to allow issuance of a driver's license, or

(Snipped the rest of neo-Nazi rant)

"What we have have heah, is fail-yah to commun'cate. We just can't get
through to" Al Brennan, Don Quixote, Scott en Aztlan et al...

[Bruno]

Post by s***@aol.com
If the *highway* in question is a 4-lane, non-access controlled
highway, the overtaking driver can pass on the left or right side,
when the safe opportunity presents itself, so the overtaken driver
shouldn't have to do anything

Is that what the law says?

[s***@aol.com]

Post by Bruno

Post by s***@aol.com
If the *highway* in question is a 4-lane, non-access controlled
highway, the overtaking driver can pass on the left or right side,
when the safe opportunity presents itself, so the overtaken driver
shouldn't have to do anything

Is that what the law says?

Read the California vehicle Code and you will learn that passing on a
multi-lane highway can be done either on the right or the left. It
takes some study to understand what the Rules of the Road section
means, and, evidently it's beyond the comprehension of the many young
morons who are learning the rules of the road "by ear", from listening
to urban myth, or taking bad advice from NG trolls...

Nothing in the CVC can be construed as saying that drivers proceeding
at the maximum speed limit, when the prima facie law indicates that
it's safe to travel at the maximum speed have to get out of the way of
psychos charging up on their rear bumper...

The decision on whether to get out of the way of a serious nut case is
up to the individual tailgatee...

[XS11E]

Post by s***@aol.com
Nothing in the CVC can be construed as saying that drivers
proceeding at the maximum speed limit, when the prima facie law
indicates that it's safe to travel at the maximum speed have to
get out of the way of psychos charging up on their rear bumper...

That's also incorrect.

[XS11E]

Post by XS11E

Post by s***@aol.com
Nothing in the CVC can be construed as saying that drivers
proceeding at the maximum speed limit, when the prima facie law
indicates that it's safe to travel at the maximum speed have to get
out of the way of psychos charging up on their rear bumper...

That's also incorrect.

Oops, forgot the cite:

Yielding for Passing

21753. Except when passing on the right is permitted, the driver of
an overtaken vehicle shall safely move to the right-hand side of the
highway in favor of the overtaking vehicle after an audible signal or a
momentary flash of headlights by the overtaking vehicle, and shall not
increase the speed of his or her vehicle until completely passed by the
overtaking vehicle. This section does not require the driver of an
overtaken vehicle to drive on the shoulder of the highway in order to
allow the overtaking vehicle to pass.

Amended Sec. 9, Ch. 440, Stats. 1996. Effective January 1, 1997.
Amended Sec. 40, Ch. 724, Stats. 1999. Effective January 1, 2000.

[Bownse]

Post by XS11E

Post by XS11E

Post by s***@aol.com
Nothing in the CVC can be construed as saying that drivers
proceeding at the maximum speed limit, when the prima facie law
indicates that it's safe to travel at the maximum speed have to get
out of the way of psychos charging up on their rear bumper...

That's also incorrect.

Yielding for Passing
21753. Except when passing on the right is permitted, the driver of
an overtaken vehicle shall safely move to the right-hand side of the
highway in favor of the overtaking vehicle after an audible signal or a
momentary flash of headlights by the overtaking vehicle, and shall not
increase the speed of his or her vehicle until completely passed by the
overtaking vehicle. This section does not require the driver of an
overtaken vehicle to drive on the shoulder of the highway in order to
allow the overtaking vehicle to pass.
Amended Sec. 9, Ch. 440, Stats. 1996. Effective January 1, 1997.
Amended Sec. 40, Ch. 724, Stats. 1999. Effective January 1, 2000.

honking and flashing lights is part of the statute; clearly not some
mythical "road rage" as so sought by those with nothing better to do.

[XS11E]

Post by s***@aol.com
Pay attention, now, sonny. That section is obviously talking about
a *highway* with two lanes or more of traffic in either direction.
It's not talking about a *freeway* with controlled access, where
most morons think the leftmost lane is some sort of "passing lane"

The left lane IS the passing lane and in many states you can be cited
for being in the left lane when not passing another vehicle.

[Ari Rankum]

Post by s***@aol.com

Post by Scott en Aztlán
If those people would mind their own business in the correct lane,
then everyone else would be able to mind THEIR own business,
as well.

Scott, you are mentally retarded if you believe what you wrote.
It's none of YOUR business what lane other motorists drive in. Read
your California Vehicle Code and you will discover a few interesting
things. For instance, all lanes on the freeway have the SAME speed
limit, unless otherwise marked. And, passing on the right or left is
permitted, as long as you stay in the lanes of travel. And, you can
search the California vehicle Code as long as you want, and you will
NEVER find any proof that the lane closest to the center divider is
the "fast lane". That's just an urban myth. Law abiding drivers have
every right to mind their own business in the lane closest to the
center divider while cruising at the speed limit. That's what the lane
is FOR, it's NOT a passing lane, nor is it your personal race track
where you're allowed to pass everybody on the road and expect them to
get out of your way.
Don't flash your lights at other motorists, expecting them to just get
out of your way. Light flashing on the freeways is illegal and may lead
to incidents of road rage. There is only ONE situation where you can
legally flash your lights or toot your horn when you come up behind a
slower moving vehicle in California. That's when you're on a two-lane
road and you have a quarter of a mile clear space to pass a slow moving
vehicle. That slower driver is supposed to move as far to the right as
possible, but he doesn't have to drive on the shoulder for you. If you
can't pass in that situation, don't even try it.
Finally, the signs that say "Slower Traffic Keep Right" do not refer to
motorists driving in the lane closest to the center divider if they are
driving at the speed limit.
The "Slower Traffic Keep Right" signs mean that busses and trucks and
underpowered vehicles that can't reach the speed limit have to move
over to the right.
Unfortunately, brain dead dipshits like Scott here may be trying to
pass everybody who won't move out of the left lanes. This moron may be
driving 100 mph in what he thinks is "the slow lane". If it's the "slow
lane", why the fuck is Scott driving 100 mph in it?
It's because he's retarded...

|---|---|---|---|---|---|
0 ^ 10
|
|

Troll-O-Meter - there is no substitute

[donquijote1954]

Post by Ari Rankum

Post by s***@aol.com

Post by Scott en Aztlán
If those people would mind their own business in the correct lane,
then everyone else would be able to mind THEIR own business,
as well.

Scott, you are mentally retarded if you believe what you wrote.
It's none of YOUR business what lane other motorists drive in. Read
your California Vehicle Code and you will discover a few

interesting

Post by Ari Rankum

Post by s***@aol.com
things. For instance, all lanes on the freeway have the SAME speed
limit, unless otherwise marked. And, passing on the right or left is
permitted, as long as you stay in the lanes of travel. And, you can
search the California vehicle Code as long as you want, and you will
NEVER find any proof that the lane closest to the center divider is
the "fast lane". That's just an urban myth. Law abiding drivers have
every right to mind their own business in the lane closest to the
center divider while cruising at the speed limit. That's what the lane
is FOR, it's NOT a passing lane, nor is it your personal race track
where you're allowed to pass everybody on the road and expect them to
get out of your way.
Don't flash your lights at other motorists, expecting them to just get
out of your way. Light flashing on the freeways is illegal and may lead
to incidents of road rage. There is only ONE situation where you can
legally flash your lights or toot your horn when you come up behind a
slower moving vehicle in California. That's when you're on a

two-lane

Post by Ari Rankum

Post by s***@aol.com
road and you have a quarter of a mile clear space to pass a slow moving
vehicle. That slower driver is supposed to move as far to the right as
possible, but he doesn't have to drive on the shoulder for you. If you
can't pass in that situation, don't even try it.
Finally, the signs that say "Slower Traffic Keep Right" do not refer to
motorists driving in the lane closest to the center divider if they are
driving at the speed limit.
The "Slower Traffic Keep Right" signs mean that busses and trucks and
underpowered vehicles that can't reach the speed limit have to move
over to the right.
Unfortunately, brain dead dipshits like Scott here may be trying to
pass everybody who won't move out of the left lanes. This moron may be
driving 100 mph in what he thinks is "the slow lane". If it's the "slow
lane", why the fuck is Scott driving 100 mph in it?
It's because he's retarded...

|---|---|---|---|---|---|
0 ^ 10
|
|
Troll-O-Meter - there is no substitute

I gave it a perfect 10. Unless he's one of those real sociopath we see
on the road all the time.

[Ari Rankum]

Post by donquijote1954

Post by Ari Rankum
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
0 ^ 10
|
|
Troll-O-Meter - there is no substitute

I gave it a perfect 10. Unless he's one of those real sociopath we see
on the road all the time.

I didn't, and it's a good thing. In his subsequent post, he threw in
some German bashing, some American bashing, some class bashing, some
stinky bait WRT Road & Track. All in all, a much better troll.

[Tim Morrow]

Post by The Office Jet
So, you're that guy. The guy that scares the snot out of people when
they're driving along minding their own business.

You've misplet "not paying attention."

[Odinn]

Post by Odinn

Post by Odinn

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn
I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right

lane

Post by Odinn

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn
because some asshole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer

at

Post by Odinn

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn
the 80 MPH until there is no traffic at all in the right lane.

The actual problem is when the joker in the left lane is doing 52

mph

Post by Odinn

Post by Bownse
and won't move over for the people wanting to do 80.

Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their

bumper

Post by Odinn
and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick.

So, you're that guy. The guy that scares the snot out of people when
they're driving along minding their own business.

If you're driving in the left lane at slower than the speed limit with
the right lane open, you deserve to have the shit scared out of you, not
just snot.
--
Odinn

"The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot
do." --Walter Bagehot

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

[donquijote1954]

Post by Odinn

Post by The Office Jet
So, you're that guy. The guy that scares the snot out of people when
they're driving along minding their own business.

If you're driving in the left lane at slower than the speed limit with
the right lane open, you deserve to have the shit scared out of you, not
just snot.

Even if you drive AT the speed limit you deserve ANY road rage you
receive.

Though we may remember that the system puts out these assholes so they
go out there and burn gas, tires and pay insurance.

[donquijote1954]

And America ain't alone in the lack of lane discipline, nor is the
German Autobahn the only model...

(The Private Motor Truck Council of Canada is the only national
association dedicated to the private trucking community. This column
presents opinions on trucking issues from the perspective of private
carriers. Your comments are invited and can be addressed to
***@pmtc.ca)

WE SHOULD LISTEN TO THE VOICE OF EXPERIENCE
A wide variety of problems on our highways contribute to making driving
a difficult and patience-trying endeavour on most days. And for the
professionals who make a living behind the wheel, those problems can
even make for a hard day's work. Overcrowding of our road system, the
poor condition of major highways, and plain bad manners top my list of
grievances.

Recently I had the opportunity to drive on some highways in France and
couldn't help but notice remarkable differences in 'highway manners'
when compared to those of North American drivers.

One of the first things a person will notice is that on many stretches,
the speed limit on French highways is 130 km/hr. The most common speed
limit on similar highways in Canada is 100 km/hr, with the occasional
route at 110 km/hr. It took some adjusting for me to get comfortable
with the 130 km/hr limit, but not as much as one might have thought.
Before long I was keeping pace with the locals, and while moving along
with the traffic it was easy to observe some clear differences in
driving habits when compared to North American drivers, and to witness
how well the practice of sharing the road can work.

One such difference is the way in which drivers observe what Canadian
officials term "lane discipline".

On the French highways the outside lane is used for passing, not for
hanging around. While I was pushing my little rented Citroën along in
an inside lane I was regularly overtaken by larger, faster cars, all of
which promptly moved back to the inside lane once they were safely
around me, leaving the outside lane for the next vehicle that wanted to
move faster than the crowd.

A couple of years ago I participated on a road safety committee
organized by Ontario's then Minister of Transportation. There were a
number of associations and other safety and enforcement personnel on
the committee and we were charged with exploring ways in which
Ontario's roads could be made safer and to make specific
recommendations to the Minister.

I recall some senior enforcement officers on the committee voicing
their concern with the lack of lane discipline on Ontario's highways.
They described it as a principal cause of aggressive driving and road
rage, and urged us to raise the visibility of lane discipline as a
safety issue in our recommendations.

The officers felt that an educational program that would explain proper
lane usage could prove to be an enormous benefit. Drivers camped out in
the passing lane, or in some cases in the middle lane, routinely clog
up the highways, leading to frustration on the part of other drivers
and in some cases to those frustrated drivers taking risks that lead to
accidents and fatalities.

The officers on that committee lauded the European model of lane
discipline and advocated a campaign to convert our drivers to that
model. Unfortunately the recommendation was never acted on and we still
deal with problem drivers who will not yield the passing lane.

I confess that at the time I didn't see the problem as being quite as
serious as the officials described. Sure, I had experienced being held
up by someone who wouldn't move over and was impeding my trip to
wherever, but it seemed more of a minor and temporary inconvenience
than anything else.

But now, having reviewed in my mind the comments and recommendations
made by those enforcement officials, and having witnessed first hand
how well lane discipline works, I'm more inclined to agree with them.
This is a subject that is well worth the attention of Transportation
Ministers across the Country.

[donquijote1954]

A rather funny look at the problem..,

Road Warriors
Lying with statistics to bolster your position

Orange alert: American drivers are demented, speed-crazed,
food-swilling, cellphone-gabbing, lane-jumping, road-raging sociopaths.
Forget those Middle Eastern loonies; you face a greater threat from the
guy next to you on the freeway in that Chevy Malibu. Any moment now
he's likely to punch the throttle, take a bite of an unwrapped Twinkie,
hit some numbers on his Nokia, toss you the bird and bunt you into the
tall grass.

As if you didn't think driving is dangerous enough, now we get word
from the American Automobile Association and other safety groups that a
poll they recently conducted affirms our fears. Seizing on the
confessions of motorists, the survey indicates that more than 70%
admitted they drove over the posted limits (a ludicrous figure; I'm
betting it's closer to 98%); 59% noshed while driving; 37% used a
cellphone; 28% scorned seat belts; 26% didn't bother with turn signals;
and 14% engaged in light reading while at the wheel. Couple these
amazing mea culpas with endless revelations about road rage (which
includes the mini-culpa of running yellow lights) and it would seem
that our highways have become scenes of driving stunts and demolition
derby antics that make "2Fast and 2Furious" look like a pastoral
snooze.

Now comes word via hysterical headline writers and newscasters that
traffic deaths last year were the highest since 1990. In 2002, 42,850
people died on our roads and byways, an increase of 634 victims over
2001. On the surface, this frightful toll ought to prompt citizens to
suit up like Nascar drivers and cower in the slow lane.


But let us pause to calm our palpitations. For openers, the road-death
rate remains constant at 1.51 deaths per hundred million miles driven.
That is a hundred million miles between each traffic death. Moreover,
the toll includes jaywalkers, motorcyclists, bike riders, truckers and
farm-implement drivers. Many of the victims were drunk or drug-impaired
(although statistics are murky). Many were very young (16-18) or very
old (75+) and no one has any idea how many were suicides. Add to that
the fact that while 634 more people died in 2002, the public rolled out
48 billion more miles -- many of which took place in rain, fog,
blizzards and other meteorological delights.
Toss out the heavy breathing by the safety lobby and the ambulance
chasers and legalized bunko artists who profited mightily in such
alleged disasters as the Audi 5000 "unintended acceleration" and the
Ford-Firestone rollovers (both of which involved egregious driver
errors) and we have a non-issue here.

To be sure, the loss of 42,000 citizens is a tragedy, but considering
the masses of kinetic energy and tonnage unleashed on the highways each
day by more than 200 million motor vehicles, we're dealing with a
miracle that the number is so low. Yes, Americans may abuse laws of
common sense at the wheel, but their ability to navigate between pillar
and post without crashing ought to be lauded, not criticized.

Driving or riding in a modern, well-maintained car with seat belts
hooked, minus drugs and alcohol, paying attention to the driving
environment and employing a modicum of courtesy, your chances of
arriving safely are better than navigating your bathtub.

"Can you hear me now?"

Mr. Yates is editor at large of Car and Driver magazine.

[Bownse]

Post by donquijote1954
amazing mea culpas with endless revelations about road rage (which
includes the mini-culpa of running yellow lights)

See... fabrications! Just the one statement alone negates the entire
rest of the content. How can you "run" a yellow light when their use is
clearly defined in the DPS manual as "slow and prepare to stop". You can
run a red light (which means stop) but proceeding through an
intersection on yellow is well within the guidelines of the statutes.
Once again, trumped up allegations to support the fiction known as "road
rage".

[Ari Rankum]

Post by Odinn

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn
I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right lane
because some asshole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer at
the 80 MPH until there is no traffic at all in the right lane.

The actual problem is when the joker in the left lane is doing 52 mph
and won't move over for the people wanting to do 80.

Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper
and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick.

I don't. I expect an idiot driver to be an idiot in many other aspects
of their lives, including regard for the welfare of others. I really
don't want to experience a cager brake-check while right off their bumper.

Instead, I try to accept that, human nature being what it is, a cager
will attempt to foil any attempt to get by him and proceed with life.
That's why human nature is so much fun when I'm on a motorcycle. That
BDC that hangs out in the left lane, only speeding up when a passing
opportunity presents itself to his right, is well-schooled when he finds
that motorcycle that had been held up behind him suddenly in front of
him in the blink of an eye.

I believe with the right scientific instrumentation, you could actually
measure the cager's member shrinkage as you disappear ahead.

[Bownse]

Post by Odinn

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn
I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right lane
because some asshole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer at
the 80 MPH until there is no traffic at all in the right lane.

The actual problem is when the joker in the left lane is doing 52 mph
and won't move over for the people wanting to do 80.

Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper
and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick.

Tried that many times. There are people (in many states) that have
appointed themselves as protectors of the white rectangle (speed limit
sign). The set up these rolling road block at exactly the posted limit
and proclaim, "NONE SHALL PASS", as if they were a quadriplegic Black
Knight.

[Keith Schiffner]

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn
I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to
change to the right lane because some asshole
behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer
at the 80 MPH until there is no traffic at
all in the right lane.

The actual problem is when the joker in the
left lane is doing 52 mph and won't move over
for the people wanting to do 80.

Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I
ride right on their bumper and turn on the
bright lights, they usually move over pretty
quick.

Tried that many times. There are people (in many
states) that have appointed themselves as
protectors of the white rectangle (speed limit
sign). The set up these rolling road block at
exactly the posted limit and proclaim, "NONE
SHALL PASS", as if they were a quadriplegic
Black Knight.

Oh THOSE people...I pass them in such a manner
that they buy new underwear. 8^)

[Bownse]

Post by Keith Schiffner

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn
I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to
change to the right lane because some asshole
behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer
at the 80 MPH until there is no traffic at
all in the right lane.

The actual problem is when the joker in the
left lane is doing 52 mph and won't move over
for the people wanting to do 80.

Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I
ride right on their bumper and turn on the
bright lights, they usually move over pretty
quick.

Tried that many times. There are people (in many
states) that have appointed themselves as
protectors of the white rectangle (speed limit
sign). The set up these rolling road block at
exactly the posted limit and proclaim, "NONE
SHALL PASS", as if they were a quadriplegic
Black Knight.

Oh THOSE people...I pass them in such a manner
that they buy new underwear. 8^)

I'm sayin'! When it's possible. Sometimes it's not (at least right
away). Which is a good reason to support lane splitting BTW.

[donquijote1954]

OK, let's talk about the SOLUTION. I start...

-A system similar to the Autobahn. Unrestricted speed in safe areas.
Bring experts from there

-Tougher licensing, including special status for lerner (L)

-Lane discipline enforced

-Bigger vehicles require special license or pay more for tickets or
both

-Minimum speed enforced on highways

-No cell phone, makeup, coffee or newspaper ;)

-Signal lights mandatory

THE AUTOBAHN (very interesting)

TRAFFIC REGULATIONS

To safely facilitate heavy, high-speed traffic, special laws apply when
driving on the Autobahn:

-Vehicles with a maximum speed rating of less than 60 km/h (36 mph) are
prohibited as are bicycles, mopeds, and pedestrians.

-PASSING ON THE RIGHT IS PROHIBITED! Slower vehicles must move to the
right to allow faster traffic to pass, and drivers should stay in the
right lane except to pass. When passing, you must do so as quickly as
possible.

-Stopping, parking, U-turns, and reverse travel are prohibited,
including on shoulders and ramps (except for emergencies, of course.)

-Entering and exiting is permitted only at interchanges.

-During traffic jams, motorists must leave an emergency lane between
the left lane and the adjacent center or right lane for emergency
vehicles. This is accomplished by traffic in the left lane moving as
far to the left as possible and traffic in the adjacent lane moving as
far to the right as possible.

-If you have a breakdown or accident, you must move to the shoulder if
possible and place a warning triangle 200 meters behind the scene. You
must report the incident to the authorities using the nearest emergency
phone (see below.)

-It is illegal to run out of gas on the Autobahn.

There are no tolls to use the Autobahn. It is one of the few free
superhighway systems in Europe. There was some talk a few years ago of
charging an annual fee (like Switzerland), but that hasn't
materialized.

Driving customs:

-Motorists at the rear of a traffic jam will usually switch on their
hazard blinkers to warn approaching traffic.

-Although it's illegal, other drivers may flash their high beams at you
or use their left turn signal to request that you move to the right to
let them pass.

-Even though the "drive right, pass left" rule is generally adhered to,
you may find some cases where motorists will stay in the left or center
lane when passing even though the vehicles they're passing are somewhat
widely spaced.

CONSTRUCTION & CLOSURES (very nice!)

In the event that a segment of Autobahn must be closed due to an
accident or other emergency, pre-posted detours are ready to guide
traffic around the closure. When you exit the Autobahn, start following
the * signs. Each exit has a numbered detour route that will take you
to the next entrance. If that entrance is also closed, follow the next
sequential detour number to reach the next entrance after that (odd
numbers head in one direction, even numbers in the opposite direction.)
You can also use these detours as an optional route to bypass
congestion.

http://home.att.net/~texhwyman/autobahn.htm

[Bownse]

Unlimited speeds are no longer the norm on the autobauhn. sadly a report
from a coworker with very recent exposure says that most of it's a lot
like in the US now. Left lane hogs and all.

Post by donquijote1954
OK, let's talk about the SOLUTION. I start...
-A system similar to the Autobahn. Unrestricted speed in safe areas.
Bring experts from there
-Tougher licensing, including special status for lerner (L)
-Lane discipline enforced
-Bigger vehicles require special license or pay more for tickets or
both
-Minimum speed enforced on highways
-No cell phone, makeup, coffee or newspaper ;)
-Signal lights mandatory
THE AUTOBAHN (very interesting)
TRAFFIC REGULATIONS
To safely facilitate heavy, high-speed traffic, special laws apply when
-Vehicles with a maximum speed rating of less than 60 km/h (36 mph) are
prohibited as are bicycles, mopeds, and pedestrians.
-PASSING ON THE RIGHT IS PROHIBITED! Slower vehicles must move to the
right to allow faster traffic to pass, and drivers should stay in the
right lane except to pass. When passing, you must do so as quickly as
possible.
-Stopping, parking, U-turns, and reverse travel are prohibited,
including on shoulders and ramps (except for emergencies, of course.)
-Entering and exiting is permitted only at interchanges.
-During traffic jams, motorists must leave an emergency lane between
the left lane and the adjacent center or right lane for emergency
vehicles. This is accomplished by traffic in the left lane moving as
far to the left as possible and traffic in the adjacent lane moving as
far to the right as possible.
-If you have a breakdown or accident, you must move to the shoulder if
possible and place a warning triangle 200 meters behind the scene. You
must report the incident to the authorities using the nearest emergency
phone (see below.)
-It is illegal to run out of gas on the Autobahn.
There are no tolls to use the Autobahn. It is one of the few free
superhighway systems in Europe. There was some talk a few years ago of
charging an annual fee (like Switzerland), but that hasn't
materialized.
-Motorists at the rear of a traffic jam will usually switch on their
hazard blinkers to warn approaching traffic.
-Although it's illegal, other drivers may flash their high beams at you
or use their left turn signal to request that you move to the right to
let them pass.
-Even though the "drive right, pass left" rule is generally adhered to,
you may find some cases where motorists will stay in the left or center
lane when passing even though the vehicles they're passing are somewhat
widely spaced.
CONSTRUCTION & CLOSURES (very nice!)
In the event that a segment of Autobahn must be closed due to an
accident or other emergency, pre-posted detours are ready to guide
traffic around the closure. When you exit the Autobahn, start following
the * signs. Each exit has a numbered detour route that will take you
to the next entrance. If that entrance is also closed, follow the next
sequential detour number to reach the next entrance after that (odd
numbers head in one direction, even numbers in the opposite direction.)
You can also use these detours as an optional route to bypass
congestion.
http://home.att.net/~texhwyman/autobahn.htm

[donquijote1954]

Post by Bownse
Unlimited speeds are no longer the norm on the autobauhn. sadly a report
from a coworker with very recent exposure says that most of it's a lot
like in the US now. Left lane hogs and all.

I doubt it got that bad (for one they are well trained), but we can
hope to hear from some recent visitor.

Anyway, we can make it work good if we want.

[M***@mailcity.com]

Pennsylvania passed a law a few years ago that makes it a
violation to drive in the left most lane. Unless your are
overtaking another vehicle, it will cost you $136 to drive in the
left lane with a cop around. ;)


mike hunt

Post by Bownse
Unlimited speeds are no longer the norm on the autobauhn. sadly a report
from a coworker with very recent exposure says that most of it's a lot
like in the US now. Left lane hogs and all.

[donquijote1954]

Post by M***@mailcity.com
Pennsylvania passed a law a few years ago that makes it a
violation to drive in the left most lane. Unless your are
overtaking another vehicle, it will cost you $136 to drive in the
left lane with a cop around. ;)

You should go all the way and consider secession... ;)

more scary stories
'I am driving down the US 60 bypass going to work. It's a 4 lane road
with very light traffic at the time. In a 55 mph zone, I am in the left
lane behind a lady in a Jeep Liberty who thinks that the rain is a
reason to go 40 mph in the left lane with no traffic in the right lane.
OK, so I signal and change lanes to the right lane and pass her
accelerating to 55 mph. As I am passing her, I hear her horn blaring
and when I pass her she flashes her bright lights at me several times
and keeps honking.

Why do people insist on blocking traffic in the left lane? Are they
just $%^&ing stupid? I'm not a fan of passing on the right, but I am
less of a fan of going 40 mph down the highway behind somebody in the
left lane. I just wish these drivers didn't pee me off - it's like they
"win" by making me angry. Time for me to go meditate on the
insignificance of traffic.'

http://roadragers.com/forums/index.php?act=SF&f=3

My own scary story...

I'm coming north on A1A between Key Largo and Homestead, a long one
lane road with two spots with double lane for passing. The first spot,
the lady takes the left lane next to another vehicle, so she blocks me
"for the hell of it." Second spot, guess... yep, same shit. I don't
think even meditation can help my rage. The hand grenade looks
tempting...

[M***@mailcity.com]

It is legal to pass on the right in every state, after signaling
your intention. Flash you lights, if they do not move to the
right turn on your right turn signal, pass on the right and be on
your way. When they block both lanes as you say, there is not
much you can do except back off and watch your mirrors so you
don't get hit from the rear and wait till it safe to pass.
Getting riled up, will not help ;)


mike hunt

Post by donquijote1954

Post by M***@mailcity.com
Pennsylvania passed a law a few years ago that makes it a
violation to drive in the left most lane. Unless your are
overtaking another vehicle, it will cost you $136 to drive in the
left lane with a cop around. ;)

You should go all the way and consider secession... ;)
more scary stories
'I am driving down the US 60 bypass going to work. It's a 4 lane road
with very light traffic at the time. In a 55 mph zone, I am in the left
lane behind a lady in a Jeep Liberty who thinks that the rain is a
reason to go 40 mph in the left lane with no traffic in the right lane.
OK, so I signal and change lanes to the right lane and pass her
accelerating to 55 mph. As I am passing her, I hear her horn blaring
and when I pass her she flashes her bright lights at me several times
and keeps honking.
Why do people insist on blocking traffic in the left lane? Are they
just $%^&ing stupid? I'm not a fan of passing on the right, but I am
less of a fan of going 40 mph down the highway behind somebody in the
left lane. I just wish these drivers didn't pee me off - it's like they
"win" by making me angry. Time for me to go meditate on the
insignificance of traffic.'
http://roadragers.com/forums/index.php?act=SF&f=3
My own scary story...
I'm coming north on A1A between Key Largo and Homestead, a long one
lane road with two spots with double lane for passing. The first spot,
the lady takes the left lane next to another vehicle, so she blocks me
"for the hell of it." Second spot, guess... yep, same shit. I don't
think even meditation can help my rage. The hand grenade looks
tempting...

[donquijote1954]

Post by Odinn

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn
I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right lane
because some asshole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer at
the 80 MPH until there is no traffic at all in the right lane.

The actual problem is when the joker in the left lane is doing 52 mph
and won't move over for the people wanting to do 80.

Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper
and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick.

You must have a mean face, 'cause it doesn't work for me.

[Odinn]

Post by Odinn

Post by Odinn

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn
I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right

lane

Post by Odinn

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn
because some asshole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer

at

Post by Odinn

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn
the 80 MPH until there is no traffic at all in the right lane.

The actual problem is when the joker in the left lane is doing 52

mph

Post by Odinn

Post by Bownse
and won't move over for the people wanting to do 80.

Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their

bumper

Post by Odinn
and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick.

You must have a mean face, 'cause it doesn't work for me.

Loading Image...

Hair is a little shorter now, but that's me.
--
Odinn

"The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot
do." --Walter Bagehot

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

[Tim]

Post by Odinn
Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper
and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick.

Those are the tactics that make me slow down almost immediately.

[donquijote1954]

Some irony doesn't hurt...

"the USA is a model in how you can: talk on the cellphone, be on the
internet, shave, put on makeup, change your clothes, drink beer, eat,
drink, watch DVD's, listen to radios, read a navigations system, read a
book, beat your kids in the back seat, go 45 mph in the passing lane,
wax about how you as a driver have rights to be in any damn place one
wants, cause an accident and then successfully sue the REAL victim."

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef08fa1/4252

[Odinn]

Post by Tim

Post by Odinn
Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper
and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick.

Those are the tactics that make me slow down almost immediately.

Good, then you'll be the one who gets a good game of bumper tag going.
I love watching idiots gets spun off into the median.
--
Odinn

"The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot
do." --Walter Bagehot

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

[Ari Rankum]

Post by Tim

Post by Odinn
Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper
and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick.

Those are the tactics that make me slow down almost immediately.

Good, then you'll be the one who gets a good game of bumper tag going. I
love watching idiots gets spun off into the median.

The PIT maneuver, my favorite!

[Tim Morrow]

Post by Tim

Post by Odinn
Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper
and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick.

Those are the tactics that make me slow down almost immediately.

See how well that all works out? When someone reacts as you describe, I merely
drive around them on the shoulder, or an exit ramp, or a turn lane, or on the
median, or in an oncoming traffic lane, then merge smoothly back in front of
them, then apply my own brakes, slowing almost to a stop (changing lanes as
necessary to stay in front of them, of course, if they attempt to go around me)
and then accelerate away at a rate that they are unable to match.

And everybody is HAPPY!

Tim

[Keith Schiffner]

Post by Tim

Post by Odinn
Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I
ride right on their bumper
and turn on the bright lights, they usually
move over pretty quick.

Those are the tactics that make me slow down
almost immediately.

AH! Your the asshole that lost a mirror? Haven't
seen you since you tried that shit in Texas...only
I wasn't tailgating and yes the high beams were
on. Tough shit douche' bag...cagers are only
useful as organ donors.

[Bownse]

Post by Tim

Post by Odinn
Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper
and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick.

Those are the tactics that make me slow down almost immediately.

Try that on Atlanta I285. Lane disciple is strictly enforced by the
drivers. It's posted at 55mph, but cops don't touch anyone because of
the snarls it would cause. Instead each lane is assigned an unwritten
speed range that locals know and understand.

From left to right (lane 1 through 4 irrc), you have:
The Wall Lane (lane 1): 85 and up (better be going 90 or better)
Lane 2: 75 to 85
Lane 3: 65 to 75
Lane 4: 55 to 65 (entry/exit to interstate)

Break these rules and you WILL be taught them by your fellow drivers. We
had one guy come back from a long assignment to Atlanta whining about
how he was going 75 in the Wall Lane and someone came up from behind and
started pushing him. DUH! He was impeding traffic by at least 15 mph. On
top of that everyone tailgates. I mean REALLY tailgates. Everyone's 6
inches off the bumper of the car in front of them. Doing 90 I was passed
by a lady in a while SUV one lane to me left while the other
motorcyclist I was with, in that left-most lane had the lady 6" off his
bumper. Quite exhilarating once you understand the rules. And NO ONE
is distracted with cell phones, or kids, or DVDs, or books, or...
DRIVING is job #1!

[donquijote1954]

Post by Bownse

Post by Tim
Those are the tactics that make me slow down almost immediately.

Try that on Atlanta I285. Lane disciple is strictly enforced by the
drivers. It's posted at 55mph, but cops don't touch anyone because of
the snarls it would cause. Instead each lane is assigned an unwritten
speed range that locals know and understand.
The Wall Lane (lane 1): 85 and up (better be going 90 or better)
Lane 2: 75 to 85
Lane 3: 65 to 75
Lane 4: 55 to 65 (entry/exit to interstate)

So lane discipline can indeed be learned by American drivers. They even
do right thing without enforcement. Let's call it
"cooperative-anarchism" to differentiate it from "jungle-anarchism,"
which prevails on the rest of the roads. This beast can be tamed with
some enforcement, I'm sure.

[Kitchen Man]

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 00:22:51 -0500 in rec.motorcycles, "Tim"

Post by Tim

Post by Odinn
Ahh, I don't typically have that problem, I ride right on their bumper
and turn on the bright lights, they usually move over pretty quick.

Those are the tactics that make me slow down almost immediately.

Again, not condoning the actions of the poster you respond to - I think
such tactics are rude and a bit dangerous - but your response to that
stimulus is almost criminal. OK, somebody thinks that you are driving a
bit too slow in the passing lane. I've been in situations where I could
not get over because of erratic driving by motorists in the lane to my
right, and have been tailgated and flashed. It's uneasy, and knowing
that I am driving attentively makes me a bit pissed that the driver
behind me does not realise that I am attempting to drive safely and
courteously. I will not, however, play passive-aggressive fuck-around
games, the intent of which is to either cause a collision, or cause
another motorist's stress level to elevate.

If you find yourself in that situation, where someone is rudely
tailgating and flashing, just continue to drive in the correct manner,
which is to swiftly and safely pass the traffic that you got into the
passing lane to pass, then smoothly and safely merge back into the
rightmost (or leftmost, as the case may be) lane that traffic allows.

If you continually drive in this manner, realizing that movement into
the passing lane normally requires an increase in speed in order to
swiftly and safely pass slower traffic, the type of behavior that the OP
engages in should afflict you only in extraordinarily rare cases. The
rareness of the affliction will then make it easier to brush off with
little or no stress.

If all drivers drove with an idea to reducing, rather than increasing,
the stress levels of all around them, then our roadways would be a much
safer and calmer place to be. Considering the amount of our lifetimes
spent on roadways, I think it a splendid idea to try to make that time a
little more pleasant.

[XS11E]

Post by Kitchen Man
Again, not condoning the actions of the poster you respond to - I
think such tactics are rude and a bit dangerous - but your
response to that stimulus is almost criminal. OK, somebody thinks
that you are driving a bit too slow in the passing lane. I've
been in situations where I could not get over because of erratic
driving by motorists in the lane to my right, and have been
tailgated and flashed. It's uneasy, and knowing that I am driving
attentively makes me a bit pissed that the driver behind me does
not realise that I am attempting to drive safely and courteously.

All you need do is turn on your right turn signal*, that makes the
person behind realize you are trying to move over.

*or left turn signal if you're in England?

[donquijote1954]

Post by Bownse

Post by Odinn
I'm not slowing down from 80MPH to 50MPH to change to the right lane
because some asshole behind me wants to do 82MPH. He can suffer at the
80 MPH until there is no traffic at all in the right lane.

The actual problem is when the joker in the left lane is doing 52 mph
and won't move over for the people wanting to do 80.
--

Someone suggested using a hand granade, but I'd stay away from it,
since you will not even be given a medal. Actually, the full force of
the law will fall on you until they get the last penny out you. ;)

[donquijote1954]

Post by Odinn

Post by donquijote1954

Post by Scott Buchanan
Funny. Too bad that it is true. Where were you driving?

If you've driven I-95 in Florida then you know the jungle.

I did, just yesterday, from Jacksonville to Daytona (then took 4 over to
Orlando)

I should have said South Florida, since I barely know the north. The
south (south of West Palm Beach) is very, very busy so things get worse
and all these things apply. But lane discipline is a national problem,
so chaos is to be expected wherever you can zigzag at will on the road,
particularly where you use your mass to intimidate others.

[Stephen!]

Post by donquijote1954
'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of
inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing keep
right except to pass.

Ahhh... One of those jackasses who thinks the "Keep Right" signs trump the
"Speed Limit" signs... Gotcha...

[donquijote1954]

Post by Stephen!

Post by donquijote1954
'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of
inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing keep
right except to pass.

Ahhh... One of those jackasses who thinks the "Keep Right" signs trump the
"Speed Limit" signs... Gotcha...

It makes sense change the system. Fast zigzaging vehicles are far more
dangerous than fast vehicles on the left lane. Besides traffic would
move along faster. And much less road rage too. Common sense, no?

[Tim Morrow]

Post by Stephen!

Post by donquijote1954
'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of
inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing keep
right except to pass.

Ahhh... One of those jackasses who thinks the "Keep Right" signs trump the
"Speed Limit" signs... Gotcha...

They do, of course.

[N8N]

Post by Stephen!

Post by donquijote1954
'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of
inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing keep
right except to pass.

Ahhh... One of those jackasses who thinks the "Keep Right" signs trump the
"Speed Limit" signs... Gotcha...
--
IBA# 11465
http://imagesdesavions.com

Oh, so you have reason to believe that the speed limit is somehow more
important than KRETP? Please elaborate, because the rest of us
apparently missed your "logic."

nate

[Bownse]

Post by Stephen!

Post by donquijote1954
'All I am saying is that you can eliminate the majority of
inconsiderate driving and "road rage" by instituting and enforcing keep
right except to pass.

Ahhh... One of those jackasses who thinks the "Keep Right" signs trump the
"Speed Limit" signs... Gotcha...

HEY! I agree! It doesn't say, "keep right up to the speed limit and then
anywheres fine with us". The sign isn't big enough! It's not the job of
another driver to play traffic cop and set up rolling road blocks.
Keep right means exactly what it says. There are no outside limits to
it. It works for everyone (fast or slow) when kept to its most basic
directive. Let the cops decide if the faster driver should be cited. In
the mean time, get the hell back over into the right lane and quit
impeding traffic! <g>

[Motorhead Lawyer]

-When you choose your large vehicle, Make it
bigger again by adding oversized tyres.

Ain't no *Real Man* would put "tyres" on a truck! We use *Tars*!

(And they ain't "oversized"; they's *33s*!)
--
C.R. Krieger
(Been there; done that)

[Furious George]

Post by Motorhead Lawyer

-When you choose your large vehicle, Make it
bigger again by adding oversized tyres.

Ain't no *Real Man* would put "tyres" on a truck! We use *Tars*!

Real men use tracks and they're tanks not trucks.

Post by Motorhead Lawyer
(And they ain't "oversized"; they's *33s*!)
--
C.R. Krieger
(Been there; done that)

[Keith Schiffner]

"Furious George"
SNIP

Post by Furious George
Real men use tracks and they're tanks not
trucks.

Ah, what a ill-informed weenie. IF I were to use a
tracked vehicle on the street it would be either a
M548 OR a M113A3. But the 548 would get converted
to the M113A3's drivetrain package. Adds a tubo
and a REAL transaxle instead of a transmission
differential set up. FAR faster and more
controllable i.e. you can induce powerslides in a
straight line on mud.

[donquijote1954]

"Road rage is like terrorism - it may be excessive and unjust, it may
cause innocent victims, and it may be undeserved, but it is never
unprovoked."

I like the definition, though I'd use the word "rarely" instead of
"never." I have had unprovoked rage, like others raging at me for doing
the right thing, which, regrettably, they may be unaware of.

My rage though is directed at the Department of Motor Vehicles and the
Highway Patrol. It IS a systemic problem. They issue the "licence to
kill" and they fail to enforce lane discipline. The jungle starts
there, and packing a bigger gun, just makes you another victim of the
game. Guess where you will land after you use it, and how much it'll
cost you in lawyers? Perhaps the whole thing is about feeding the lion
and foxes.

Now I just drive with a Mona Lisa smile thinking: "It's a jungle out
there."


"Driver cut you off? It's your fault. You shouldn't have been driving
so slowly.

Driver refuses to let you merge? It's your fault. They have the right
of way, so back off and yield.

Driver tailgating you? It's your fault. Speed up, or pull over and let
them pass.

Driver threatens you with a gun? It's your fault. Carry a bigger gun,
or a hand grenade.

Driver deliberately hits your car? It's your fault. You should have got
out of their way.

This is not a problem that can be solved through legislation, because
you can't legislate common sense. You alone are responsible for your
lot in life. Stop worrying about other drivers and look to yourself for
the solution. Also being more patient helps."

http://roadragers.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=44&

[donquijote1954]

For real HORROR STORIES turn to this website...

http://roadragers.com/forums/index.php?s=2681b0d1066b0d41e2f503354791c5cf&act=SF&f=2

Cell phones have undoubtedly inspired some of the best ones... ;)

Cell phone rage
By Michelle Gillett

STOCKBRIDGE

AFTER A visit to Williamstown's art galleries and a stop at Plaine's in
Pittsfield to check out the bikes a few weeks ago, I was driving down
South Street in the left lane, preparing to make the turn onto Crofut
Street to drop off my traveling companion. We were discussing the pros
and cons of hybrid bikes versus road bikes versus mountain bikes, when
she said, "Holy s***, we're going to be killed!"

I glanced over to where she was pointing and saw a car crossing the
right hand lane of traffic, heading straight for us. Instead of
steering into the turning lane, the driver was making a wide loop that
put us directly into her path and brought her within a hair's breadth
of demolishing us before I threw my upper body against the horn which
caused her to look up and realize she was about to kill us. Somehow,
she corrected the turn, all the while laughing into the cell phone she
was holding.

In the prolonged seconds of this near death experience, I could see
clearly what had happened: She had turned right onto South Street from
a side street but had been unable to negotiate the turn that would have
placed her appropriately into the right hand lane because she was
driving with one hand and one quarter of her brain. The other hand was
holding the cell phone and the rest of her brain was engaged in
conversation.

My friend and I used expletives that we didn't know we knew. We even
used some hand gestures. Unlike Dick Cheney we didn't feel better. We
felt outraged and shaken. The driver who nearly killed us blithely
traveled on still chatting away on her cell phone. She looked animated.
She was still laughing -- undoubtedly telling the tale of her almost
collision with us.

(continues)

[donquijote1954]

It's all about big bucks (you get what you pay for)...

The Ticket Lawyers

"it is always a good idea for the motorist to challenge speeding
tickets as well as all moving violations. Why? To begin with, the the
insurance companies use speeding tickets to jack up motorists insurance
rates. (Some companies like GEICO are even buying police agencies
RADAR and LASER systems). In Miami-Dade County, a single ticket can
raise rates by $325 per year for five years...That's a whooping
increase of $1,625 for paying one ticket!

Again, the best defense is to retain the best legal counsel one can
afford. The best counsel means an experienced firm that files as many
motions as a case warrants, goes to as many hearings as necessary and
fights or tries the case if necessary. This takes time, since
sometimes these cases are continued several times.

Aggressive and Zealous representation at an affordable rate is our goal
at Ticket Law Center. We fight these cases in sixty (60) of
sixty-seven (67) Florida Counties. We are definitely not the
cheapest, nor are we the most expensive firm I have found handling
these matters. However, in this as in all areas of law, you get what
you pay for."

http://www.ticketlawyer.com/speeding.htm

[M***@mailcity.com]

Why give your hard earned money to the government in the from of
fines for violating the MV code when you can just as easily give
it to some shark lawyer like this guy so he can buy a new BMW for
his 16 year old kid? Wouldn't it be better to hold your speed
to the ten over the limit that most cops allow before they cite
anyone? LOL


mike hunt

Post by donquijote1954
It's all about big bucks (you get what you pay for)...
The Ticket Lawyers
"it is always a good idea for the motorist to challenge speeding
tickets as well as all moving violations. Why? To begin with, the the
insurance companies use speeding tickets to jack up motorists insurance
rates. (Some companies like GEICO are even buying police agencies
RADAR and LASER systems). In Miami-Dade County, a single ticket can
raise rates by $325 per year for five years...That's a whooping
increase of $1,625 for paying one ticket!
Again, the best defense is to retain the best legal counsel one can
afford. The best counsel means an experienced firm that files as many
motions as a case warrants, goes to as many hearings as necessary and
fights or tries the case if necessary. This takes time, since
sometimes these cases are continued several times.
Aggressive and Zealous representation at an affordable rate is our goal
at Ticket Law Center. We fight these cases in sixty (60) of
sixty-seven (67) Florida Counties. We are definitely not the
cheapest, nor are we the most expensive firm I have found handling
these matters. However, in this as in all areas of law, you get what
you pay for."
http://www.ticketlawyer.com/speeding.htm

[donquijote1954]

Post by M***@mailcity.com
Why give your hard earned money to the government in the from of
fines for violating the MV code when you can just as easily give
it to some shark lawyer like this guy so he can buy a new BMW for
his 16 year old kid? Wouldn't it be better to hold your speed
to the ten over the limit that most cops allow before they cite
anyone? LOL

Not a bad idea. I'd feel particularly envious though at the kid in the
BMW passing me at 90MPH...

[Odinn]

Post by donquijote1954
It's all about big bucks (you get what you pay for)...
The Ticket Lawyers
"it is always a good idea for the motorist to challenge speeding
tickets as well as all moving violations. Why? To begin with, the the
insurance companies use speeding tickets to jack up motorists insurance
rates. (Some companies like GEICO are even buying police agencies
RADAR and LASER systems). In Miami-Dade County, a single ticket can
raise rates by $325 per year for five years...That's a whooping
increase of $1,625 for paying one ticket!

Funny, I have GEICO (have had them for several years) and they have
NEVER increased my rates due to a speeding ticket (I get one on average
of every 3 years). My rates have steadily dropped every year, including
the years I got the speeding tickets and the years following.

More bullshit published by someone who doesn't know what they fuck they
are talking about.
--
Odinn

"The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot
do." --Walter Bagehot

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

[donquijote1954]

Post by Odinn

Post by donquijote1954
It's all about big bucks (you get what you pay for)...
The Ticket Lawyers
"it is always a good idea for the motorist to challenge speeding
tickets as well as all moving violations. Why? To begin with, the the
insurance companies use speeding tickets to jack up motorists insurance
rates. (Some companies like GEICO are even buying police agencies
RADAR and LASER systems). In Miami-Dade County, a single ticket can
raise rates by $325 per year for five years...That's a whooping
increase of $1,625 for paying one ticket!

Funny, I have GEICO (have had them for several years) and they have
NEVER increased my rates due to a speeding ticket (I get one on average
of every 3 years). My rates have steadily dropped every year,

including

Post by Odinn
the years I got the speeding tickets and the years following.
More bullshit published by someone who doesn't know what they fuck they
are talking about.

It's a lawyer, they know what they are talking about. But may prefer to
lie.

In his defense though insurance rates DO go up with tickets, even if
you are an exception to the rule.

[Odinn]

Post by donquijote1954

Post by Odinn

Post by donquijote1954
It's all about big bucks (you get what you pay for)...
The Ticket Lawyers
"it is always a good idea for the motorist to challenge speeding
tickets as well as all moving violations. Why? To begin with, the

the

Post by Odinn

Post by donquijote1954
insurance companies use speeding tickets to jack up motorists

insurance

Post by Odinn

Post by donquijote1954
rates. (Some companies like GEICO are even buying police agencies
RADAR and LASER systems). In Miami-Dade County, a single ticket can
raise rates by $325 per year for five years...That's a whooping
increase of $1,625 for paying one ticket!

Funny, I have GEICO (have had them for several years) and they have
NEVER increased my rates due to a speeding ticket (I get one on

average

Post by Odinn
of every 3 years). My rates have steadily dropped every year,

including

Post by Odinn
the years I got the speeding tickets and the years following.
More bullshit published by someone who doesn't know what they fuck

they

Post by Odinn
are talking about.

It's a lawyer, they know what they are talking about. But may prefer to
lie.
In his defense though insurance rates DO go up with tickets, even if
you are an exception to the rule.

It's a lawyer, they lie about things they know nothing about, which is
99% of the shit they talk about. Insurance rates rarely go up with a
speeding ticket, I'm not an exception to the rule. Insurance rates
usually go up with claims. Having speeding tickets makes it harder to
get lower rates initially, but the occassional one here and there do not
increase rates.
--
Odinn

"The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot
do." --Walter Bagehot

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 to reply

[Bownse]

Post by Odinn

Post by donquijote1954
It's all about big bucks (you get what you pay for)...
The Ticket Lawyers
"it is always a good idea for the motorist to challenge speeding
tickets as well as all moving violations. Why? To begin with, the the
insurance companies use speeding tickets to jack up motorists insurance
rates. (Some companies like GEICO are even buying police agencies
RADAR and LASER systems). In Miami-Dade County, a single ticket can
raise rates by $325 per year for five years...That's a whooping
increase of $1,625 for paying one ticket!

Funny, I have GEICO (have had them for several years) and they have
NEVER increased my rates due to a speeding ticket (I get one on average
of every 3 years). My rates have steadily dropped every year, including
the years I got the speeding tickets and the years following.
More bullshit published by someone who doesn't know what they fuck they
are talking about.

I had GEICO for more than 10 years and rates were always going up in
spite of no tickets or claims. That was during their expansion days when
they used to only cover government workers (Government Employee
Insurance COmpany). When they expanded out to the higher risk groups and
started their ongoing stupid ad campaigns, they financed it on the backs
of their existing customers.

Add to that their providing radar and laser guns to some PDs and their
refusal to pay any claim if a radar detector is noted by the LEO, I
chose to move to a company that didn't spend my fees against me. Which
is the same reason I won't join AARP when I become a geezer.

[donquijote1954]

Post by M***@mailcity.com
It is legal to pass on the right in every state, after signaling
your intention. Flash you lights, if they do not move to the
right turn on your right turn signal, pass on the right and be on
your way. When they block both lanes as you say, there is not
much you can do except back off and watch your mirrors so you
don't get hit from the rear and wait till it safe to pass.
Getting riled up, will not help ;)

True, but not everyone out there is a Dali Lama. Further, the abscense
of law develops into the Law of the Jungle. It would be so easy to
correct bad behavior at the source, but what can you expect from an
stupid--and hungry--dinosaur?

[Bownse]

Post by donquijote1954

Post by M***@mailcity.com
It is legal to pass on the right in every state, after signaling
your intention. Flash you lights, if they do not move to the
right turn on your right turn signal, pass on the right and be on
your way. When they block both lanes as you say, there is not
much you can do except back off and watch your mirrors so you
don't get hit from the rear and wait till it safe to pass.
Getting riled up, will not help ;)

True, but not everyone out there is a Dali Lama. Further, the abscense
of law develops into the Law of the Jungle. It would be so easy to
correct bad behavior at the source, but what can you expect from an
stupid--and hungry--dinosaur?

Nope. The absence of law develops into individual
liability/responsibility. You dis someone seriously enough and
eventually you're dead. Clearly you won't dis anyone that badly again
and others that hear of the results, who actually consider their
mortality occasionally, are less prone to that level of disishness from
the outset.

"An armed society is a polite society."

[donquijote1954]

Post by Bownse

Post by donquijote1954

Post by M***@mailcity.com
It is legal to pass on the right in every state, after signaling
your intention. Flash you lights, if they do not move to the
right turn on your right turn signal, pass on the right and be on
your way. When they block both lanes as you say, there is not
much you can do except back off and watch your mirrors so you
don't get hit from the rear and wait till it safe to pass.
Getting riled up, will not help ;)

True, but not everyone out there is a Dali Lama. Further, the abscense
of law develops into the Law of the Jungle. It would be so easy to
correct bad behavior at the source, but what can you expect from an
stupid--and hungry--dinosaur?

Nope. The absence of law develops into individual
liability/responsibility. You dis someone seriously enough and
eventually you're dead. Clearly you won't dis anyone that badly again
and others that hear of the results, who actually consider their
mortality occasionally, are less prone to that level of disishness from
the outset.
"An armed society is a polite society."

The proof of the risks of Jungle Anarchism can be plainly seen in our
roads. It's OK for big fat SUVs to zigzag around smaller vehicles
without any concern for their safety. But it's not OK, for smaller cars
to go faster if caught speeding. If you had Cooperative Anarchism
though all would move faster and you would have more winners. Two
groups: Slower vehicles to the right, faster vehicles to the left.
Separation of prey and predator.

Besides being common sense this theory won a Noble Prize.


John Nash stated that "Adam Smith was wrong"! "The best result comes
from doing the best for one's self and for the group"!

THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE

Once upon a time, in the deep jungle, lived a Lion and a Monkey... One
day the Monkey, tired of the Lion always taking the LION'S SHARE, and
seeing that such injustice represented a danger to all, demanded
JUSTICE... The Lion, yawning and stretching, said, "You would have to
have paws and sharp teeth..." Then the Monkey, who was very clever,
devised a plan: He would go to the costume store, and look like a
lion...

When the HUNGRY LION saw him, noticing that the new lion wasn't a match

for him, and fearing COMPETITION, killed him on the spot --before the
indifferent look of the little animals of the jungle... And that's how
the Law of the Jungle was re-established one more time...

***

I was watching the other day "A Beautiful Mind," in which John Nash
proposes his game theory that in all-out competition as proposed by
Adam Smith ALL LOSE. Of course, the HUNGRY LION ignores this...

Here is his theory, which is consistent with our own COMPETITION WITH
THE COMMON GOOD IN MIND. I'd argue further that COOPERATION AMONG THE
LITTLE PEOPLE IS IN ORDER SO THEY CAN FEND OFF PREDATORS. COMMON SENSE
IN THE JUNGLE... ;)


The Nash Equilibrium
The theory constructs a notion of "equilibrium," to which the complex
chain of thinking about thinking could converge. Then the strategies of

all players would be mutually consistent in the sense that each would
be choosing his or her best response to the choices of the others. For
such a theory to be useful, the equilibrium it posits should exist.
Nash used novel mathematical techniques to prove the existence of
equilibrium in a very general class of games. This paved the way for
applications. Biologists have even used the notion of Nash equilibrium
to formulate the idea of evolutionary stability. Here are a few
examples to convey some ideas of game theory and the breadth of its
scope.


The Prisoner's Dilemma
In Joseph Heller's novel Catch-22, allied victory in World War II is a
foregone conclusion, and Yossarian does not want to be among the last
ones to die. His commanding officer points out, "But suppose everyone
on our side felt that way?" Yossarian replies, "Then I'd certainly be a

damned fool to feel any other way, wouldn't I?"


Every general reader has heard of the prisoner's dilemma. The police
interrogate two suspects separately, and suggest to each that he or she

should fink on the other and turn state's evidence. "If the other does
not fink, then you can cut a good deal for yourself by giving evidence
against the other; if the other finks and you hold out, the court will
treat you especially harshly. Thus no matter what the other does, it is

better for you to fink than not to fink -- finking is your uniformly
best or 'dominant' strategy." This is the case whether the two are
actually guilty, as in some episodes of NYPD Blue, or innocent, as in
the film LA Confidential. Of course, when both fink, they both fare
worse than they would have if both had held out; but that outcome,
though jointly desirable for them, collapses in the face of their
separate temptations to fink.


Yossarian's dilemma is just a multi-person version of this. His death
is not going to make any significant difference to the prospects of
victory, and he is personally better off alive than dead. So avoiding
death is his dominant strategy.


John Nash played an important role in interpreting the first
experimental study of the prisoner's dilemma, which was conducted at
the Rand Corporation in 1950.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/n­ash/sfeature/sf_dixit.html

[Bownse]

Post by donquijote1954

Post by Bownse

Post by donquijote1954

Post by M***@mailcity.com
It is legal to pass on the right in every state, after signaling
your intention. Flash you lights, if they do not move to the
right turn on your right turn signal, pass on the right and be on
your way. When they block both lanes as you say, there is not
much you can do except back off and watch your mirrors so you
don't get hit from the rear and wait till it safe to pass.
Getting riled up, will not help ;)

True, but not everyone out there is a Dali Lama. Further, the

abscense

Post by Bownse

Post by donquijote1954
of law develops into the Law of the Jungle. It would be so easy to
correct bad behavior at the source, but what can you expect from an
stupid--and hungry--dinosaur?

Nope. The absence of law develops into individual
liability/responsibility. You dis someone seriously enough and
eventually you're dead. Clearly you won't dis anyone that badly again
and others that hear of the results, who actually consider their
mortality occasionally, are less prone to that level of disishness
from the outset. "An armed society is a polite society."

The proof of the risks of Jungle Anarchism can be plainly seen in our
roads. It's OK for big fat SUVs to zigzag around smaller vehicles
without any concern for their safety. But it's not OK, for smaller cars
to go faster if caught speeding. If you had Cooperative Anarchism
though all would move faster and you would have more winners. Two
groups: Slower vehicles to the right, faster vehicles to the left.
Separation of prey and predator.

The only thing that proves is that it's NOT a jungle. Those who would
defend themselves (riders) in an environment where there truly were no
laws, are hindered from the fear that they would be prosecuted for
direct actions while the indirect actions of the "instigators" (cagers)
are ignored by those same enforcement entities.

In an unhindered environment, each murder 2 attempt via an "SUV assault
weapon" would be met with a justified use of deadly force for self
defense (by the rider). The instant result is that ONE attempted
murderer would never create that kind of situation again. The long term
result would be that other careless cagers would become (more) careful
because of the increased awareness that their actions had repercussions
(since they too would have the potential of ending up dead instead of
just the motorcyclist).

The current problem is a direct result of certain mentalities KNOWING
that they will never suffer any consequences for their actions. "I
didn't see them", it a get out of jail free card for killers of riders.

[donquijote1954]

Post by Bownse
The current problem is a direct result of certain mentalities KNOWING
that they will never suffer any consequences for their actions. "I
didn't see them", it a get out of jail free card for killers of riders.

Good point. It ain't a true jungle. It's a jungle set up by and for the
predators. Maybe it's a savannah.

[Rob Kleinschmidt]

Post by donquijote1954
Surviving in the jungle for 12 month ain't easy feat. It takes a lot of
knowledge of the laws...of the jungle. Number one is, size matters,
like the big fish eats the little fish... But don't take it from me...

Actually, this is a crock. American roads are mostly incredibly
boring.

For a real jungle, try a third world country with a mix of cars,
busses, cement mixers, oxcarts, herds of sheep, camels, elephants,
bicycles, rickshaws and just about anything else you can think of,
each going at whatever it's natural cruising speed happens to be.

What always impressed me greatly was that the drivers seem to be
able to calculate the relative speeds of each animal and vehicle
on the road. The guy driving the scooter cab knows he can
swerve into the opposite lane to get around the sheep, get back
into the right lane before he hits the oxcart, swerve out into
the opposite lane to avoid the rickshaw then slide back into
his own lane with the nose of his vehicle under the tailgate of
the truck ahead of him just before he gets splattered across
the front of the cement mixer coming in the opposite direction.

The most interesting thing of all is how in the middle of all this,
a driver will swerve onto the shoulder to avoid a bird in the middle
of the road pecking at roadkill. This is because the driver's religion
tells him that life is sacred unless of course it's lost by accident
in a collision.

For the most memorable experience, go explore all of this in a
three wheel scooter cab. First time we did this I recall my wife
just kept screaming "Oh my God !! Oh my God" and trying to crawl
under the seat and hide. Within a matter of days though she
was taking this as calmly as anybody else.

I really don't quite understand why you think American roads are
anything worth talking about.

[donquijote1954]

Post by Rob Kleinschmidt
I really don't quite understand why you think American roads are
anything worth talking about.

OK, OK, maybe it's just a boring savannah where the big and stupid prey
on the small and even more stupid little animals. So long as you have
an SUV here, you should be safe.

[Rob Kleinschmidt]

Post by donquijote1954

Post by Rob Kleinschmidt
I really don't quite understand why you think American roads are
anything worth talking about.

OK, OK, maybe it's just a boring savannah where the big and stupid prey
on the small and even more stupid little animals. So long as you have
an SUV here, you should be safe.

This is rec.motorcycles in case you hadn't noticed.

[donquijote1954]

Post by Rob Kleinschmidt

Post by donquijote1954

Post by Rob Kleinschmidt
I really don't quite understand why you think American roads are
anything worth talking about.

OK, OK, maybe it's just a boring savannah where the big and stupid

prey

Post by donquijote1954
on the small and even more stupid little animals. So long as you have
an SUV here, you should be safe.

This is rec.motorcycles in case you hadn't noticed.

That's true. You have fun. And it would be even more fun--and safer--if
everybody played by the rules of the road.