On Dec 10, 12:07 am, "J Young" <***@aol.com> wrote:
> This is an absolute disgrace. If people wish to hold atheist beliefs, they
> should learn to keep it to themselves. No one should invoke their values
> upon others.
>
> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59111HOLIDAY
> BLUES
>
> 'Imagine no religion,' says atheists' display
>
> Residents irked by city-approved sign in public park blaming faith for 9/11
> Posted: December 9, 2007
> 1:00 a.m. Eastern
>
> (c) 2007 WorldNetDaily.com
>
> Connecticut atheists, taking advantage of a town's policy of allowing
> holiday-season displays in its public park, have erected a 10-foot tall sign
> in celebration of the winter solstice that includes a message blaming the
> attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, on religious believers.
>
> The 3-sided sign was erected in the Town of Vernon's Central Park on Dec. 1
> by the Connecticut Valley Atheists. The two sides facing Main Street feature
> a pre-attack image of the Twin Towers with the sun shining between them and
> the message, "Imagine no religion," drawn from the John Lennon anthem,
> "Imagine."
>
> Use of the image is meant to say the Twin Towers would still be standing
> were it not for religion, CVA coordinator Dennis Himes told the Hartford
> Courant.
>
> The goal is to "simply emphasize an advantage of atheism, something good
> about atheism," Himes said. "Al-Qaida is not a terrorist organization that
> happens to be religious, it is a terrorist organization that is inspired by
> its religious beliefs."
>
> The third side of the sign faces town hall with a message about the winter
> solstice - the basis for the group being given a permit. It reads:
>
> "In late December the sun is lower and days are shorter than any time of
> year. Throughout the rest of winter the sun gets higher and the days get
> longer. Because of this people have celebrated the winter solstice from time
> immemorial. People used to believe that gods moved the sun across the sky.
> Today we know that there are no gods, and that the sun moves by natural
> causes, and we celebrate not only the movement of the sun but our ability to
> understand that movement."
>
> "We would prefer no displays promoting theological worldviews be displayed
> at all, but as long as they are we thank the Town of Vernon for permitting
> atheists equal access," the group says on its website.
>
> "The town marked off three spots in the park," Himes said. "The notice to
> groups said first come, first served, so we picked the one right in front of
> town hall. We fully expected the other displays to be up around the same
> time we put ours up."
>
> While the town issued permits to a local synagogue for a menorah display and
> to a group of churches that plan to place a creche in the park, the atheists
> were the first to erect their display - indeed, as of the weekend, theirs
> remained the only display except for a large Christmas tree Mayor Jason L.
> McCoy had a town crew erect 10 feet from the atheists' sign.
>
> McCoy rejected suggestions placement of the tree is meant to obstruct views
> of the atheists' display. When told that it did, in fact, obstruct the view,
> McCoy responded to the Courant, "Oh, really - that's unfortunate."
>
> McCoy and other town officials have been fielding complaint calls for a week
> from residents angry at the group's suggestion their religion was
> responsible for 9/11.
>
> "People are not offended the atheists have something up there, and they're
> not offended by whatever they celebrate. What they're troubled by is they
> feel [their] religion is equated with being involved in terrorism," McCoy
> said.
>
> Officials also said the tone of the atheists' display appeared to be more
> political and not consistent with the description given on their permit
> application of a "triangular stand displaying information about the winter
> solstice, atheism and human light observance."
>
> Himes insists the town made the issue political when it decided to allow
> religious displays on public property.
>
> "The original question was whether Vernon would have a nativity scene on
> church property or town property," Himes said. "The difference between those
> two is a political difference."
>
> For generations, Vernon has displayed its circa-World War II creche in the
> park, but it was moved to St. Bernard Church last year after Hines
> complained, saying the town was violating the separation of church and
> state.
>
> Republican town committee members passed a unanimous resolution calling for
> the creche to be returned to its traditional location in the park in 2007. A
> new policy, crafted last August, grants equal space for any group wanting to
> set up traditional displays or symbolic messages during the month of
> December.
>
> Sandi LaChapelle, owner of Russ' Time Rock 'n' Roll Diner, told the Courant
> visitors to her business have been commenting on the photo of the sun
> streaming between the Twin Towers.
>
> "The sun forms a cross," she said.
>
> "That certainly wasn't intentional," Himes said.
>
> --
> J Young
> ***@aol.com
Atheists look at this topic with tunnel vision JY.
They like to fantasize what the world would be like if religion would
never have been invented.
The facts are this: when people are devoid of religion / spiritual
values...they generally stink as humans.
Sure Christians do bad things, so do all practitioners in other
religions. But many of these religious practitioners also do good
things.
You never see atheists taking up charitable works and feeding and
clothing the poor in any organized way as Christians do.
There may be the odd atheists philanthropists here or there, but
nothing organized like Christians charitable organizations.
I wrote to the president of American Atheists, UK Atheists, the
Secular Humanism Foundation, Sam Harris and others about this very
topic and none had the courtesy to reply.
Shows how much interest atheists really have in humanity.
No, I prefer to keep things as they are and keep religions, even with
all their imperfections.
I believe religions do more good than harm. I shudder to think what
the world would be like if it was composed solely of atheists.
The many countries that the US has been at war with and subsequently
lost the war to can be most grateful we were not an atheist country.
If we were a country that did not apply Christian principles to our
captors millions more would have been killed.
Atheist run countries have a policy of extermination and ethnic
cleansing rather than applying charity.
Atheist like to claim religion killed so many people...well without
religion in world the killings would have been much worse.
When I discussed Christian principles one time an Atheist piped up to
say "the Christians have no principles," and "Jesus was a fabled
creation of the Christians."
When we sperate the personalities from the principles it makes looking
at things much easier. When I am referring to Christian principles I
speak of such things as charity, works of mercy and the golden rule,
where the emphasis is on principles and not on the personalities of
the church.
For even if Jesus was just created as a fable, these Christian
principles are universal truths in their own right if one desires to
live a life at peace and promote the inner peace of others in this
world.
"The Corporal Works of Mercy"
To feed the hungry
To give drink to the thirsty
To clothe the naked
To harbour the harbourless
To visit the sick
To ransom the captive
To bury the dead
"The Spiritual Works of Mercy"
To instruct the ignorant
To counsel the doubtful
To admonish sinners
To bear wrongs patiently
To forgive offenses willingly
To comfort the afflicted
To pray for the living and the dead
You see, by applying the rule of reciprocity or rule of opposites we
can see if we were in these positions of the needy mentioned above, we
would like such charity bestowed on us for the most part. What about
our children, parents and loved ones? Wouldn't we wish the same for
them? We have no loved ones? What about our neighbors? The Christian
ethic says to treat one another as we would wish to be treated. As we
give ~ so we receive.
Even if an atheist, as we give peace - we receive inner peace as many
of the tools I mentioned above do not require belief in God, they only
requirement is a desire to be at peace and to bring peace to others.
This is the Christian doctrine in a nutshell, when we put principles
before personalities.
As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds
and water these seeds within you as well. As James Allen wrote in "As
a man Thinketh" ~ To think well of all, to be cheerful with all, to
patiently learn to find the good in all - such unselfish thoughts are
the very portals of heaven; and to dwell day by day in thoughts of
peace toward every creature will bring abounding peace to their
possessor."
This is universal truth that transcends man made religions. Remember,
we do not have to do it perfectly. Just look for direction and forget
perfection - for perfection or range is of the ego and form is of the
soul. There are many tools for peace within the worlds spiritual
paths, no one said these paths are perfect, in fact, it was once said
that walking the spiritual path is akin to walking on a razors edge.
But if we bother to be honest, non prejudicial and to look, we can
find tools that can help us be at peace whether atheist, agnostic or
believer.
Again, when people are devoid of religion...they generally stink as
humans.
Until atheism can replace theist based religion as a VIABLE and REAL
way to inner peace, with a reverence of humanity, it can never take
over the world and extinguish religion.
When you get rid of one thing, it makes room for another.
Sure atheist can succeed at pointing to the flaws of religious
thought, but they have nothing to replace the flaws with.
So theists choose the lesser of two evils while on earth, with the
hopes of hitting the jackpot in the hereafter.
When atheists become successes at 'the religion of humanity,' you may
become more successful at replacing theist based religion.
Until that time..."a mans mind may be likened to a garden which may be
intelligently cultivated or allowed to run wild; but whether
cultivated or neglected, it must and will bring forth. If no useful
seeds are put into it, then an abundance of useless 'weed seeds' will
fall therein and will continue to produce their kind." ~ James Allen
And religion does a good job at controlling the weeds.
In its history, organized atheism has never succeeded at replacing
religion with real humanity and compassion.
The atheists talk a good story, but atheists fail miserably when it
comes to practical application of the 'peace talk.'
And really the vast majority of atheists don't even have 'the talk' to
spout, since they have no semblance of inner peace themselves in order
to form a basis of 'lip service' to pontificate.
Don't know what I mean?
I'm saying that most atheists are too ignorant when the subject turns
to inner peace to even lie about or pretend that they know anything
about the subject.
Another reason atheists will never win, is in general it takes hatred
to fuel atheism if one is a dogmatic, militant atheist.
Hatred blinds one to peace.
When you lose the hatred and militant foundation, then you do not wish
to destroy others or their religion....you are at peace to let them be
religious.
Sure you do not let others destroy you with religion, you tell them
the facts that they run by faith, so do not get too high and mighty
and start forcing you into the religion against your will.
But you only fight in a measured way of self defense, instead of the
offensive atheists that sets out to destroy 'all faith based beliefs'
just for the sheer joy of hurting another.
Sure tearing others down appeals to one's ego and pride, but so did
torturing insects when we were kids. When we grow up we need a
different way to find self worth.
As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds
and water these seeds within you as well.
As you give so you receive.
Is that from the bible or karma?
No, it is just universal law.
Do we like to be beaten down?
Whenever we take it upon ourselves to beat down others, we are headed
in a direction of destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well
as others peace.
It takes no energy from me to pass something by and leave it alone in
peace. But it takes my energy as well as my peace to pick something up
to destroy it.
When I posted this paragraph earlier, an atheist piped to accuse me of
hypocrisy, telling me that I destroy a potato when I pick it up to eat
it, so I am a liar.
Natural law dictates I must eat, but there is no law that says I must
spew venom from my mouth to destroy others.
If atheists can get over fishing for red herrings and get onto bigger
fish to fry they will see a world of difference in their peace
practice.
The destruction of inner peace by destroying potatoes comes about when
I destroy my neighbors crop field of potatoes by poisoning them to
bankrupt him in order to take over his farmland...it does not come
about by eating a potato.
The God of Nature gives me potatoes to eat, the God of Inner Peace
tells me to not eat potatoes in excess or to destroy others if I wish
to be at peace. I cannot see either God, I know not how these God's
work, I just know they are and I can abide by their guidance or be
defiant to these Gods and end up destroying my life and the lives of
others.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=342.0
Yes, there are theists that stink. See: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/burning.html
I will be the first to admit that religion has done lots of harm but I
will also say religion done lots of right.
And just as the question of God cannot be answered with any certainty,
so goes the question of whether the world would have been better off
without religion or not.
It is a question that cannot be answered like it was in the movie
"It's a Wonderful life.'
But lets look at the facts and see that the vast, vast majority of
people are theists or believe in hereafter, so the pot is enormous
that we draw from when we pull out examples of evildoing theists that
the atheists like to parade around.
The USA was founded with God in the details. I suggest atheists that
hate a religious based country like the USA move to China or Russia.
Then you can live your dream right now, in your God free country.
In China, it was a common practice to execute political prisoners with
one bullet to the head...then they sent the bill for the bullet to the
family of the executed prisoner. That is where separation of state and
religion can lead a country. Once religion is out of politics, then
the only thing left in control is ego.
They say Hitler was a Catholic?
I don't know if he was Catholic or not.
I do know that Hitler did not practice even the most basic tenants of
Christianity.
It takes more than lip service to be a 'practicing' Catholic,
Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu or Hebrew follower.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=380.0
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/125b41aa8fd2b87b/cf400bdf88ba1701?lnk=gst&q=conundrum&rnum=7&hl=en#cf400bdf88ba1701
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0
Now, some 'spiritually based atheist's can far surpasses many theists
in kindness and virtue many times...so it just depends on what 'type
of atheist' you are talking about? But these sort of atheists are very
rare to encounter, as spiritual values and atheism do not generally
mix.
"People that practice religion are worried about going to hell -
people that practice spirituality have already been to hell and don't
want to go back."
A lot of atheists I run into make their intellect their God. They do
not know that academic smarts are not the same as peace smarts. Until
they can transcend their ego they will never find the answer (peace)
they seek.
It is the same for those that think money is all that is standing
between them and happiness.
So it goes for the ego and intellect based person that is devoid of
spiritual values.
And if the atheists is honest they will see they do not run their
lives solely by logic and are no better than the theist that runs
their lives by faith.
No, logic only goes so far in life. For what is logical is not always
practical when it comes to humans ... is it?
Always remember...one thing only goes so far with giving a person a
good life. Seek balance.
Spiritual growth as well as humans are not perfect - but we can all do
better at being humans if we try to be more humane.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0
There are many flavors of atheists...natural atheists, personal
atheists, explicit atheists, implicit atheists weak atheists, strong
atheists, discovery atheists, reactionary atheists, indoctrinated
atheists and of course the bad ass atheists with attitude aka BAAWA
varieties.
But the defining characteristic that leads an atheist to peace is
whether they are a 'spiritual based atheist' or 'defiance based
atheist.''
The business of humanism is 'all our business' if we with to live life
at peace. Egocentricity is not good for spiritual work and we need to
be open to others ideas and embrace them as nourishment for your
growth and sustenance for life - as no one person is god.
As a freethinking agnostic I AM FREE to look for truth wherever the
road takes me. I discriminate against no one. As such, I study with
the Christians, the Buddhists, the Jews, the Muslims, the Taoists and
even find truth as I study with the atheists.
When you practice peace promotion with others you will reap inner
peace promotion. When you practice destroying others peace, you will
reap self destruction of inner peace.
I suggest any atheists wishing to find inner peace within their life
adopt the creed of the atheists (their version of prepackaged morals)
and become secular humanists as a good first start.
The 'informal creed' of atheism.
An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes
that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth
for all men together to enjoy.
An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he
must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life,
to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.
An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a
knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will
help to a life of fulfillment. He seeks to know himself and his fellow
man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital
should be built instead of a church.
An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer
said.
An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death.
He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He
wants man to understand and love man.
He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a
god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a
hereafter.
He believes that we are our brother's keepers; and are keepers of our
own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the
time is now."
http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/
"The Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles"
* We are committed to the application of reason and science to the
understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
* We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to
explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature
for salvation.
* We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute
to the betterment of human life.
* We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is
the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian
elites and repressive majorities.
* We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and
state.
* We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of
resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.
* We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and
with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
* We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so
that they will be able to help themselves.
* We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race,
religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or
ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of
humanity.
* We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future
generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other
species.
* We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our
creative talents to their fullest.
* We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.
* We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to
fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to
exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and
informed health-care, and to die with dignity.
* We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity,
honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to
critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we
discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.
* We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We
want to nourish reason and compassion.
* We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.
* We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still
to be made in the cosmos.
* We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to
novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.
* We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of
despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal
significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.
* We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than
despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance,
joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love
instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of
ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.
* We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that
we are capable of as human beings.
Council for Secular Humanism
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2