In relation to Ty's statements, and my conscience

[Roger W. Norman]

I have to say that I am no longer going to accept any reasons for not
expressing my viewpoints. I have never lost the anger of 9/11 nor have I
accepted the repercussions of a Bush mandated America.

I wrote William Pitt a couple of times about being the speaker of the dead,
but he only spoke for those who died in Iraq under a false mandate. I speak
for the dead of 9/11 and those that have died since.

One wonders just what would have made another hurl themselves from a 110
story window as if they might, under some special dispensation from God,
survive. Or perhaps it was simply a matter of not desiring to die from
burning to death.

Certainly, if anyone believes in God, then it's easy to see that God must
have been on the side of the terrorists that day because they seemed to be
able to accomplish their dream and we seemed to be taken aback by the
atrocitity of an immoral attack.

Those who died on 9/11 didn't have George W. Bush in mind as they either
plunged to their deaths, or died where they stood as they were filing, or
talking around the water cooler, or getting their morning reports done.
Those who died did so immediately, thank God. But their deaths weren't
because of some terrorist attack. Their deaths were because somehow America
didn't see the possibility of terrorist attacks as being effective. In the
words of Frank Zappa, although for a different reasons "It can't happen
here". In the words of Condilezza Rice "No one could have foreseen that
terrorists would use airplanes as weapons", when, in fact the Hart-Rudman
study on terrorism said just exatly that. Gee, Connie, I suppose you didn't
read the reports.

I watch there images of destruction, of personal loss, of efforts of
humanity to help others, and what do I see? I see destruction, personal
loss and efforts of humatity to help others, and it has nothing to do with
George W. Bush.

The reason that I keep coming back to George W. Bush is that he didn't do
anything but make an appearance. New Yorkers did the job.

I don't think I can continue because this is just too hard to work through.
The worst day America experienced was GW on the firetruck, arm wrapped
around a 67 year old volunteer, saying that the whole world heard and those
responsible would pay.

And so Saddam is in jail.

Any questions?

[Kendall]

Post by Roger W. Norman
Any questions?

What does this have to do with audio?

Kendall

[Roger W. Norman]

Hey, why don't you tell me why it doesn't apply to audio or to life as a
business in the first place. Tell me how what I'm talking about doesn't
effect your business, or others.

But then I guess you have only one thought in your mind, that being that
nothing that has to do with events today has anything to do with your
business. You'd much rather find out for free whether a 4050 sounds better
than a KSM 27 or whether 6" off the kick is better tha 5" or 7", all without
simply applying some of the stuff you've heard here in the first place.

What it has to do with audio is that without a society that can do audio,
there will only be Telefunkens on Bush's podium and people will march off to
wherever they march off to. And in case you didn't notice, people are
already marching off to where they march off to.

So that's what it has to do with audio.

"The saddest thing is that I didn't say anything at all."

[Kendall]

"Roger W. Norman" <***@starpower.net> wrote in message news:413a75c4$0$19730$***@news.rcn.com...

Here, I'll fix where you top-posted to my reply so that the context couldn't
easily be followed-

Post by Roger W. Norman

Post by Kendall

Post by Roger W. Norman
Any questions?

What does this have to do with audio?

Hey, why don't you tell me why it doesn't apply to audio or to life as a
business in the first place. Tell me how what I'm talking about doesn't
effect your business, or others.
But then I guess you have only one thought in your mind, that being that
nothing that has to do with events today has anything to do with your
business. You'd much rather find out for free whether a 4050 sounds better
than a KSM 27 or whether 6" off the kick is better tha 5" or 7", all without
simply applying some of the stuff you've heard here in the first place.
What it has to do with audio is that without a society that can do audio,
there will only be Telefunkens on Bush's podium and people will march off to
wherever they march off to. And in case you didn't notice, people are
already marching off to where they march off to.
So that's what it has to do with audio.
"The saddest thing is that I didn't say anything at all."

Now, that we have all that in context, let me state that I did not read most
of your original post, once I realized it didn't relate to audio. I did,
however catch your final question, and I replied with my question. In your
answer here, I can see that yes, from a certain standpoint you do have some
relevant points. However, that is NOT why I come to this particular forum.
I come here for audio, and audio alone. I suggest that if you wish to carry
on OT posts (some of which aren't even marked as such, such as this one)
that you go start another newsgroup like rec.audio.political.discussions or
some such, and post a link to it here. That way, the people who DO want to
discuss those things can do so, and it will actually be ON TOPIC, unlike it
is here. Then, for those of us who don't wish to read off topic stuff won't
have to wade through the preponderance of OT posts where it is clearly
against the charter (as has been pointed out numerous times), and avoid the
flame-fests which benefit nobody, and turn audio professional against audio
professional. There are a number of people here who I have a lesser respect
for than if I had never heard (metaphorically speaking) them getting into
pointless flame wars over stuff that isn't supposed to be here in the first
place. Yes, I can understand wanting to discuss things like this, but it
does not belong here. Create somepace where it will be more apropos, and the
people who are interested will join you there.

If I knew you were a strict Vegan, and visited a Vegan meeting with you, how
appreciative would the group be if I stood up and began recounting how much
I like beef, and grilling pork? It would be out of place, would it not?
Therefore, I wouldn't do that, out of courtesy to the group at large. Now,
if it were a meeting of Beeflovers International, well those comments would
be appropriate.
This is a group of audio people, and yes, they have definite political
views. But, with certain exceptions, they don't usually discuss them unless
"goaded" into it, or inflamed by someone else's differing viewpoint.

As far as people marching off, yes, I've noticed that some of our members
here have gone away, remarking how it was a pity that this forum had to go
down the toilet as well. If we ALL try, we can change that. It would
require that certain persons refrained from starting OT posts in the first
place. Maybe we could try that for a while?

I repeat; It does not belong here. You have not changed that, or my
opinion about it. It does not belong here.

Kendall

Post by Roger W. Norman
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

Post by Kendall
Kendall

[George]

Post by Kendall
I repeat; It does not belong here. You have not changed that, or my
opinion about it. It does not belong here.
Kendall

I absolutly belongs here, and in the food newsgroups and in the car
newsgroups, it belongs anywhere one can find anyone to tell it to
America is doing great evil
America is creating terroists with it policy
any only by voicing our concerns can we begin the massive duty of public
awareness that will be needed to effect a change from a warrior
president and staff to a peaceful president and staff
it is essential that we become the sand in the oyster
or a pearl will never be formed
this is bigger than audio
and it needs to be said
here and anywhere else people gather
George

[Wayne]

Post by Kendall
I repeat; It does not belong here. You have not changed that, or my
opinion about it. It does not belong here.
Kendall

I support the request to confine our comments to the topic of the newsgroup.

All of you who contribute your knowledge and expertise on audio.pro, I applaude
you and thank you for sharing same.

All of you who have the notion that I or anyone else is the least bit
interested in your political opinions are living in denial. If your ego is so
large that you believe you have something important to say that will change or
impact other people's view, you really do need to mature. If I need or seek
political advice, it certainly would not be on a newgroup designed for audio.

Your opinions aren't any more right or wrong than mine, therefore do not effect
change. Speak from an area of proven expertise and people will listen.

Once you guys get off topic, I cease to read what you submit. It's boring,
redundant, and takes up bandwidth.

Still adding to my killfile, relunctantly.


--Wayne

-"sounded good to me"-

[ScotFraser]

<< I support the request to confine our comments to the topic of the newsgroup.
All of you who contribute your knowledge and expertise on audio.pro, I applaude
you and thank you for sharing same.>>

Yeah, agreed, but...

<<All of you who have the notion that I or anyone else is the least bit
interested in your political opinions are living in denial. If your ego is so
large that you believe you have something important to say that will change or
impact other people's view, you really do need to mature. >>

I think that's a major misconception of why people post political topics here.
Audio people think about a lot more than just audio & obviously the current
political situation has a lot of people very concerned. That doesn't indicate
ego, it doesn't show immaturity, it doesn't mean anybody is trying to change
your view to theirs. It means they need to talk to somebody, & they feel this
group comprises a set of virtual friends.

<<Your opinions aren't any more right or wrong than mine, therefore do not
effect
change. Speak from an area of proven expertise and people will listen.>>

This here is a bunch of audio folk standing around the cooler. We're supposed
to mainly talk audio but other stuff does come into the conversation. You
needn't take offense at that, it's just what happens during conversation, the
subject wanders. Tune out when you're bored, gently nudge things back to the
topic, but telling people they can't discuss what's on their minds is just
going to fuel unnecessary anger. I'd say skip that which doesn't interest you.

<<Once you guys get off topic, I cease to read what you submit. It's boring,
redundant, and takes up bandwidth. Still adding to my killfile, relunctantly.>>

I probably read only 10 per cent of what's posted anymore. I'd prefer more
audio being discussed but I'm cool with people bringing out whatever's gotten
under their collar also. Just chill & participate in that which interests you,
ignore the rest. Your blood pressure doesn't need to get worked up about any of
this, it's only an internet newsgroup, nothing more.




Scott Fraser

[Bob Cain]

Post by ScotFraser
I think that's a major misconception of why people post political topics here.
Audio people think about a lot more than just audio & obviously the current
political situation has a lot of people very concerned. That doesn't indicate
ego, it doesn't show immaturity, it doesn't mean anybody is trying to change
your view to theirs. It means they need to talk to somebody, & they feel this
group comprises a set of virtual friends.

Perfect summary of my interest in discussing these topics
here. I still support the idea of a rec.audio.pro.saloon
but not enough to do all the work I know is involved in
making that happen.


Bob

[agent86]

Post by ScotFraser
<<Once you guys get off topic, I cease to read what you submit. It's
boring, redundant, and takes up bandwidth. Still adding to my killfile,
relunctantly.>>
I probably read only 10 per cent of what's posted anymore. I'd prefer more
audio being discussed but I'm cool with people bringing out whatever's
gotten under their collar also. Just chill & participate in that which
interests you, ignore the rest. Your blood pressure doesn't need to get
worked up about any of this, it's only an internet newsgroup, nothing
more.

Yep. I probably read about 20% of NEW threads, but seldom follow any to
their conclusion any more. But that's mainly because the topic of audio
itself has gotten so broad. I'm more likely to ignore a "What's better:
Pro Tools, Nuendo, or Sonar" thread that an obviously marked OT thread
just because i don't really care very much about computers being uszed as
tape recorders (but that's just me). Hell, if a thread about U87s can end
up being about Stratocasters and nobody bothers to change the subject line
until a week later, it's hard to complain about ANYTHING being off topic.

[agent86]

Post by Wayne
Still adding to my killfile, relunctantly.

Have at it. That's why they invented killfiles in the first place.

[John]

Post by George
I absolutly belongs here, and in the food newsgroups and in the car
newsgroups, it belongs anywhere one can find anyone to tell it to

What is wrong with you? The people who share your viewpoint don't need
convincing. Those who disagree, well, you're only serving to piss them off.
Does fanatical, belligerant behaviour really accomplish anything? Take a
lesson from your own writings.

-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

[Blind Joni]

Post by John
What is wrong with you? The people who share your viewpoint don't need
convincing. Those who disagree, well, you're only serving to piss them off.
Does fanatical, belligerant behaviour really accomplish anything?

It's like bumper stickers..the only one gaining is the guy selling the
stickers.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Pete Dimsman]

Post by Blind Joni
It's like bumper stickers..the only one gaining is the guy selling the
stickers.

Really? I thought the undecideds kept a running count on the bumper
stickers they saw and voted for the guy with the most.. ;)

[Don Cooper]

Post by Pete Dimsman
Really? I thought the undecideds kept a running count on the bumper
stickers they saw and voted for the guy with the most.. ;)

As Larry David said, there are no undecided voters. These people are
looking for attention.

[Ty Ford]

Post by John

Post by George
I absolutly belongs here, and in the food newsgroups and in the car
newsgroups, it belongs anywhere one can find anyone to tell it to

What is wrong with you? The people who share your viewpoint don't need
convincing. Those who disagree, well, you're only serving to piss them off.
Does fanatical, belligerant behaviour really accomplish anything? Take a
lesson from your own writings.
-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

And while you're at it George, pitch in with Bob so he stops complaining
about not having what it takes to start your own newsgroup. Then you can talk
about whatever you want.

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Bob Cain]

Post by Ty Ford
And while you're at it George, pitch in with Bob so he stops complaining
about not having what it takes to start your own newsgroup.

What was that about backhands? That comes real close to
robbing me of the motivation to try and do _anything_ about
a situation you don't like.

It's clear that we just don't like each other and what seems
to make the other tick (which need not be enumerated.) I
doubt it would be the first time for either of is and it's
quite ok. Ya just can't like or be liked by everybody if
you are a real person. I think it would be a really good
idea if we both stopped referring to each other when not
directly addressing the other.


Bob

[George]

Post by John

Post by George
I absolutly belongs here, and in the food newsgroups and in the car
newsgroups, it belongs anywhere one can find anyone to tell it to

What is wrong with you? The people who share your viewpoint don't need
convincing. Those who disagree, well, you're only serving to piss them off.
Does fanatical, belligerant behaviour really accomplish anything? Take a
lesson from your own writings.
-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

I have often reconsidered what i believed as true, and changed my
position. I used to be catholic, now I am not
even years of ignorant head in the sand indoctrination can become
enlightened
It does work
and If GW doesn't scare the jimminies out of you , you just arn't paying
attention
George

[John]

Post by George
and If GW doesn't scare the jimminies out of you , you just arn't paying
attention

George, he does. Scares me shitless. But that's not my point. I have friends
in real life that I talk to about these things... The absolute least you could
do, I feel, is to mark your posts with the "OT" preface. I could beg and plead
with you not to keep bringing this group down, but I can see you're not
interested in that. Can we at least compromise here? Although I feel I'm
basically admitting defeat rather than reaching a happy medium.

-John Vice
www.summertimestudios.com

[WillStG]

Post by George
and If GW doesn't scare the jimminies out of you , you just arn't paying

attention >>

<< George, he does. Scares me shitless. >>

Come on John, don't be a "Girlie man"...

<G>


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Bob Cain]

Post by John
What is wrong with you? The people who share your viewpoint don't need
convincing. Those who disagree, well, you're only serving to piss them off.

I hope against hope that there is a signifigantly large
third group that is a whole lot less vocal and who are less
convinced in these matters than those of us who choose to
speak out. It is those people that I attempt to reach when
I engage in discussion of the issues or put others so
engaged in a critical light.

There is really a whole lot at stake now and the charter of
a group written in _much_ different times does not negate
the fact that there are now 84 nuclear suitcase bombs
missing from the inventory of the former USSR.


Bob

[Blind Joni]

Post by George
only by voicing our concerns can we begin the massive duty of public
awareness that will be needed to effect a change from a warrior
president and staff to a peaceful president and staff

Worked good in England before Churchill.




John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Nathan West]

Post by George
America is doing great evil
America is creating terroists with it policy

America Didn't create screwed up minds that decided brutally killing people
is a good policy to follow for the whole world. That is a by product of
people operating at the base emotional levels of life unwilling or unable to
advance beyond it.

Terrorist are wrong. They are not freedom fighters, Revolutionary Hero's or
any other euphemism people have dreamed up to excuse the horrific behavior.
Stop defending them.

--
Nathan

"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[Pete Dimsman]

Post by Nathan West
America Didn't create screwed up minds that decided brutally killing people
is a good policy to follow for the whole world. That is a by product of
people operating at the base emotional levels of life unwilling or unable to
advance beyond it.

Ture. But Bush has created a climate for them to rally against us. More
than ever.

[Nathan West]

Post by Pete Dimsman
Ture. But Bush has created a climate for them to rally against us. More
than ever.

Terrorist were attacking the US long before Bush. Two Examples: The Cole and the
WTC in the early 90's. It is hardly a phenomenon developed by his policies. They
are psychotics with evil intent bent on destroying life for reasons archaic as
their actions.


--
Nathan

"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[George]

Post by Nathan West

Post by Pete Dimsman
Ture. But Bush has created a climate for them to rally against us. More
than ever.

Terrorist were attacking the US long before Bush. Two Examples: The Cole and the
WTC in the early 90's. It is hardly a phenomenon developed by his policies. They
are psychotics with evil intent bent on destroying life for reasons archaic as
their actions.

You are correct BUSH did not invent terrorism, the USA has been creating
terrorist for eons
He just altered the world political climate to conditions were
terrorists thrive and multiply
He VASTLY increased the threat of terrorsism

George

[George]

In article

Post by George

Post by Nathan West

Post by Pete Dimsman
Ture. But Bush has created a climate for them to rally against us. More
than ever.

Terrorist were attacking the US long before Bush. Two Examples: The Cole
and
the
WTC in the early 90's. It is hardly a phenomenon developed by his
policies.
They
are psychotics with evil intent bent on destroying life for reasons archaic as
their actions.

You are correct BUSH did not invent terrorism, the USA has been creating
terrorist for eons
He just altered the world political climate to conditions were
terrorists thrive and multiply
He VASTLY increased the threat of terrorsism
George

and I am sure we all sleep better knowing we , here in america ,are now
safe from those mighty Iraqi scud missles
I was worried that a misssle with the power of your average 4th of july
4 inch mortar was about the destroy the USA as we knew itr.
George

[playon]

Post by Nathan West

Post by Pete Dimsman
Ture. But Bush has created a climate for them to rally against us. More
than ever.

Terrorist were attacking the US long before Bush. Two Examples: The Cole and the
WTC in the early 90's. It is hardly a phenomenon developed by his policies. They
are psychotics with evil intent bent on destroying life for reasons archaic as
their actions.

You have little understanding of world history, and you are typical of
most Americans who have little understanding of the rest of the world
outside our borders. U.S. foreign policy has for years made citizens
of other countries feel humiliated... it's not defending terrorism to
point out that there are reasons for it blowing back to the USA.

Al

[WillStG]

playon playonATcomcast.net
U.S. foreign policy has for years made citizens
of other countries feel humiliated... it's not defending terrorism to
point out that there are reasons for it blowing back to the USA.

So if a person feels humilated by you Dude, would you prosecute them if
they killed your family and burned down your house? Hey, they were embarassed,
poor baby! Every criminal has a story of why they did what they did. But
crime is crime, and if you step over the line *someone* has to bring you to
justice for it or evil people will dominate the World. Because we are the
strongest nation in the world, we have the responsibility to do it, the little
guys just can't bear the weight.

People like you are too paralyzed by your intellectual rationalizations
to protect anybody, let alone the American people. Bob Cain has now actually
recomended surrender and giving the terrorists whatever they demand. Roger
Norman says we cannot win militarily or ideologically - their brutal inhumanity
is our fault anyway!

If such views prevail this world will slip into great darkness and many
many people will die in terrible ways before things get pulled back.

You guys really need to learn how to stand up.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[George]

Post by WillStG

playon playonATcomcast.net
U.S. foreign policy has for years made citizens
of other countries feel humiliated... it's not defending terrorism to
point out that there are reasons for it blowing back to the USA.

So if a person feels humilated by you Dude, would you prosecute them if
they killed your family and burned down your house? Hey, they were embarassed,
poor baby! Every criminal has a story of why they did what they did. But
crime is crime, and if you step over the line *someone* has to bring you to
justice for it or evil people will dominate the World.

The Evil people do dominate the world
And a bit less than 1/2 Of americans voted for him, last time
George

[Michael]

Why does any of this matter? The questions are:
[1] What will the candidate do to bolster the economy, and
keep jobs from going overseas?
[2] What will the candidate do to improve education?
[3] What will the candidate do to further the war on terror?
[4] What will the candidate do to wrap up the Iraq affair?
[5] What will the candidate do for health insurance reforms?
[6] What will the candidate do to ensure the financial load
is evenly and fairly distributed to all Americans?
[7] What will the candidate do to repair our relations with
all nations while retaining our sovereignty?

All the rest of it is partisan crap and smokescreens. *I*
want to see REAL answers to the questions above. I don't
want to hear about military service (not a requirement in this
country), gay weddings, any religious pandering, or any other
superfluous crap. Those are all smokescreens that a small
portion of the population cares about, usually illogically.
EVERYONE in the USA is concerned with the issues above.
Why the @#$% are we posting about this here? We should be
talking about ProTools and ribbon mics.
---Michael (of APP)...

[Dave Martin]

Actually, I'm most concerned about something you didn't mention - [8] What
will the candidate do to repair the damage done to the Constitution of the
United States by the current administration?
--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

Post by Michael
[1] What will the candidate do to bolster the economy, and
keep jobs from going overseas?
[2] What will the candidate do to improve education?
[3] What will the candidate do to further the war on terror?
[4] What will the candidate do to wrap up the Iraq affair?
[5] What will the candidate do for health insurance reforms?
[6] What will the candidate do to ensure the financial load
is evenly and fairly distributed to all Americans?
[7] What will the candidate do to repair our relations with
all nations while retaining our sovereignty?
All the rest of it is partisan crap and smokescreens. *I*
want to see REAL answers to the questions above. I don't
want to hear about military service (not a requirement in this
country), gay weddings, any religious pandering, or any other
superfluous crap. Those are all smokescreens that a small
portion of the population cares about, usually illogically.
EVERYONE in the USA is concerned with the issues above.
talking about ProTools and ribbon mics.
---Michael (of APP)...

[playon]

Post by Michael
[1] What will the candidate do to bolster the economy, and
keep jobs from going overseas?
[2] What will the candidate do to improve education?
[3] What will the candidate do to further the war on terror?
[4] What will the candidate do to wrap up the Iraq affair?
[5] What will the candidate do for health insurance reforms?
[6] What will the candidate do to ensure the financial load
is evenly and fairly distributed to all Americans?
[7] What will the candidate do to repair our relations with
all nations while retaining our sovereignty?
All the rest of it is partisan crap and smokescreens. *I*
want to see REAL answers to the questions above. I don't
want to hear about military service (not a requirement in this
country), gay weddings, any religious pandering, or any other
superfluous crap. Those are all smokescreens that a small
portion of the population cares about, usually illogically.
EVERYONE in the USA is concerned with the issues above.

Not to mention almost all of the news analysis you hear is about
campaign strategy rather than the actual issues like those you raised.

[playon]

Post by WillStG

playon playonATcomcast.net
U.S. foreign policy has for years made citizens
of other countries feel humiliated... it's not defending terrorism to
point out that there are reasons for it blowing back to the USA.

So if a person feels humilated by you Dude, would you prosecute them if
they killed your family and burned down your house?

Of course... but I would make sure that I had the right suspect before
I started dropping bombs.

Every criminal has a story of why they did what they did. But

Post by WillStG
crime is crime, and if you step over the line *someone* has to bring you to
justice for it or evil people will dominate the World. Because we are the
strongest nation in the world, we have the responsibility to do it, the little
guys just can't bear the weight.

Please drop your typical asshole stance of putting words in people's
mouths.

Post by WillStG
You guys really need to learn how to stand up.

When are you enlisting, chickenshit?

[Bob Cain]

Post by WillStG
Bob Cain has now actually
recomended surrender and giving the terrorists whatever they demand.

Remind me to never let this guy speak for me. He puts the
strangest words in my mouth.


Bob

[Roger W. Norman]

Get a life. What do you think the idea of Bosnia was about? Check out the
ethnic groups and who Clinton decided needed the help.

Get this shit right or get off the pot.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

Post by Nathan West

Post by Pete Dimsman
Ture. But Bush has created a climate for them to rally against us. More
than ever.

Terrorist were attacking the US long before Bush. Two Examples: The Cole and the
WTC in the early 90's. It is hardly a phenomenon developed by his policies. They
are psychotics with evil intent bent on destroying life for reasons archaic as
their actions.
--
Nathan
"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[George]

Post by Nathan West

Post by George
America is doing great evil
America is creating terroists with it policy

America Didn't create screwed up minds that decided brutally killing people
is a good policy to follow for the whole world. That is a by product of
people operating at the base emotional levels of life unwilling or unable to
advance beyond it.
Terrorist are wrong. They are not freedom fighters, Revolutionary Hero's or
any other euphemism people have dreamed up to excuse the horrific behavior.
Stop defending them.
--
Nathan
"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

Dear hate moner
I ndid not sat America created EVERY terroist, just that our policy of
demanding other countries to bow and suck american dick (or bush) is
creating "lots" of terroists(as america defines them)
if one wants to stop terrosim first they should stop acting as terroists
George

[WillStG]

Post by George

Post by Nathan West
Terrorist are wrong. They are not freedom fighters, Revolutionary Hero's or
any other euphemism people have dreamed up to excuse the horrific behavior.

Dear hate moner
I ndid not sat America created EVERY terroist, just that our policy of
demanding other countries to bow and suck american dick (or bush) is
creating "lots" of terroists(as america defines them

So now *Nathan West* is a hate monger George?

Are you SURE you're not really a drummer?

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[George]

Post by WillStG

Post by George

Post by Nathan West
Terrorist are wrong. They are not freedom fighters, Revolutionary Hero's or
any other euphemism people have dreamed up to excuse the horrific behavior.

Dear hate moner
I ndid not sat America created EVERY terroist, just that our policy of
demanding other countries to bow and suck american dick (or bush) is
creating "lots" of terroists(as america defines them

So now *Nathan West* is a hate monger George?
Are you SURE you're not really a drummer?

we all are many diffrent things at different times and situations

I have been known to sell gear at cost and donate my services to churches
but don't let it get out(I have a reputation to protect)

George

[Romeo Rondeau]

Post by George
I have been known to sell gear at cost and donate my services to churches
but don't let it get out(I have a reputation to protect)

Please tell me they don't have to listen to the "God Myth" speech to get a
good deal from you! :-)

[Ricky W. Hunt]

Post by George
Dear hate moner
I ndid not sat America created EVERY terroist, just that our policy of
demanding other countries to bow and suck american dick (or bush) is
creating "lots" of terroists(as america defines them)
if one wants to stop terrosim first they should stop acting as terroists
George

At least half the terrorist acts lately were committed against countries
that directly refused to support the US so I don't think that's the answer.

[George]

Post by Ricky W. Hunt

Post by George
Dear hate moner
I ndid not sat America created EVERY terroist, just that our policy of
demanding other countries to bow and suck american dick (or bush) is
creating "lots" of terroists(as america defines them)
if one wants to stop terrosim first they should stop acting as terroists
George

At least half the terrorist acts lately were committed against countries
that directly refused to support the US so I don't think that's the answer.

its a big part of the answer
once we have clean hands then we can go looking for who else's
fingerprints are on this issue
but we must expect(at the best) others to follow our example
lets make a example worth following
then worry about the "others"
George

[Pete Dimsman]

Post by Ricky W. Hunt
At least half the terrorist acts lately were committed against countries
that directly refused to support the US so I don't think that's the answer.

Or the question.

[William Sommerwerck]

Terrorists are wrong. They are not freedom fighters, revolutionary
heros or any other euphemism people have dreamed up to
excuse the horrific behavior. Stop defending them.

Understanding is not defending.

There is a reason for what they do. It goes back (generally) to the Crusades,
and more recently since around 1800 when Europe started aggressively interfering
in the Middle East. What we're currently seeing is most-likely due to America's
overthrowing the legally elected government of Iran -- fifty years ago.

If you don't understand them, you can't control them. And terrorism is
fundamentally a social/political problem. It's not enough just to round up the
terrorists. You also have to get the countries of the Middle East to work with
you to make sure they can't start their own cells, or move easily from country
to country.

Once that's done, then we can start worrying about "freedom" and "liberty."

The neo-con's belief that bringing democracy (ie, unrestrained capitalism) to
the Middle East will make everything hunky-dorey is hopelessly naive. The world
just doesn't work that way.

[Bob Cain]

Post by William Sommerwerck
The neo-con's belief that bringing democracy (ie, unrestrained capitalism) to
the Middle East will make everything hunky-dorey is hopelessly naive.

I think it goes past that even. It is so transparently
false that no one with an education in such matters could
give it a moment's serious consideration.

That's always been the "big lie" method of governing or
propegandizing. There is something about whoppers so big as
to defy the logic of telling them that paradoxically makes
them credible. Go figure. I think it was Goebles and
Hitler who first came up with that and found it to be so
remarkably effective.

Tangent: I have a friend who was involved in the NLP (Neuro
Linguistic Programming) center here for a bit and she said
that the speech Bush gave at the convention might have been
borrowed from their course work (and will certainly be a
contribution to it.) NLP was an academic comet that fizzled
when researchers began to pull away from it because of its
real manipulative power and the way that it was starting to
be exploited by the less ethical. It is by no means
inactive but it is very quiet these days and the center
serves a well heeled clientelle very discretely.


Bob

[WillStG]

<< "William Sommerwerck" ***@nwlink.com >>
<< The neo-con's belief that bringing democracy (ie, unrestrained capitalism)
to
the Middle East will make everything hunky-dorey is hopelessly naive. The world
just doesn't work that way. >>

You are confusing apples and oranges William. Democracy is a political
system and capitalism is an economic system, they are far from being the same
thing. Democracies come in many forms, including semi-socialist ones.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[playon]

Post by WillStG
<< The neo-con's belief that bringing democracy (ie, unrestrained capitalism)
to
the Middle East will make everything hunky-dorey is hopelessly naive. The world
just doesn't work that way. >>
You are confusing apples and oranges William. Democracy is a political
system and capitalism is an economic system, they are far from being the same
thing. Democracies come in many forms, including semi-socialist ones.

True democracy + unrestrained, pure Lassez Faire Capitalism can be a
very bad combination. Check out a book called "World On Fire" by Amy
Chua, a Yale professor of economics who had done much research on
this.

We don't have pure democracy here in the US and we also have laws that
limit the harmful effects and harshness of pure capitalism (although
Bush is rolling these laws back as fast as possible).

Yet this administration thinks it's working in Iraq? As we speak,
large portions of the country are not even under our control, there is
no personal security, and a civil war is raging. How much longer are
people going to pretend that this is actually working?

[Bill G.]

Correction: America DID create, in your words, some of the "screwed up
minds that decided brutally killing people is a good policy to follow
for the whole world".

Terrorism in your case is just a matter of semantics. If a country has
a military, does that somehow make it's killing of women and children
more legitimate? Arafat is a democratically elected leader, as is
Aslan Mashkadov. Why are their soldiers labeled "terrorists"? Because
they lack a significant financial backing?

Post by Nathan West

Post by George
America is doing great evil
America is creating terroists with it policy

America Didn't create screwed up minds that decided brutally killing people
is a good policy to follow for the whole world. That is a by product of
people operating at the base emotional levels of life unwilling or unable to
advance beyond it.
Terrorist are wrong. They are not freedom fighters, Revolutionary Hero's or
any other euphemism people have dreamed up to excuse the horrific behavior.
Stop defending them.

[Nathan West]

Post by Bill G.
Terrorism in your case is just a matter of semantics. If a country has
a military, does that somehow make it's killing of women and children
more legitimate? Arafat is a democratically elected leader, as is
Aslan Mashkadov. Why are their soldiers labeled "terrorists"? Because
they lack a significant financial backing?

Are you insane? Drunk? What is it? I call evil people who drive a car into a populated area
with the intent to blow up anyone they can, children, women, men, husbands,wives etc... an
evil psychotic terrorist. I don't care what politics you have decided to color the
intention with. It is wrong, and defending it, believing them to be *okay* because of
purpose or as *their means to an end* is absolutely the most horrific twisted thinking you
can come up with.

Perhaps you want one of your children to be part of what happen in the Chechnya school this
week? You know...they were *freedom fighters* Or maybe you'd like to move to Sudan (who has
a military) and enjoy the brutality and starvation and murder. It's all for the better
cause of freedom in life isn't it?


--
Nathan

"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[playon]

Post by Nathan West

Post by Bill G.
Terrorism in your case is just a matter of semantics. If a country has
a military, does that somehow make it's killing of women and children
more legitimate? Arafat is a democratically elected leader, as is
Aslan Mashkadov. Why are their soldiers labeled "terrorists"? Because
they lack a significant financial backing?

Are you insane? Drunk? What is it? I call evil people who drive a car into a populated area
with the intent to blow up anyone they can, children, women, men, husbands,wives etc... an
evil psychotic terrorist. I don't care what politics you have decided to color the
intention with. It is wrong, and defending it, believing them to be *okay* because of
purpose or as *their means to an end* is absolutely the most horrific twisted thinking you
can come up with.

The problem is, if you are a dead civilian, or a relative of one, it
doesn't make much difference whether the dead were unfortunate
"collateral damage" from the glorious American liberators, or on
purpose by some evil nutjobs. It's not defending terrorists to point
out that the US attack on Iraq has caused much death and suffering of
the innocents, numbering into the tens of thousands.

Al

[normanstrong]

Post by Nathan West
Are you insane? Drunk? What is it? I call evil people who drive a car into a populated area
with the intent to blow up anyone they can, children, women, men, husbands,wives etc... an
evil psychotic terrorist. I don't care what politics you have

decided to color the

Post by Nathan West
intention with. It is wrong, and defending it, believing them to be *okay* because of
purpose or as *their means to an end* is absolutely the most

horrific twisted thinking you

Post by Nathan West
can come up with.

You have a good point. I suppose you can say the same thing about
America. We're rich enogh and sophisticated enough to deliver our
explosives with pinpoint accuracy from hundreds, maybe thousands of
miles away. The beauty of it is that we never know exactly who we're
killing, so there's no need to feel bad about the results.

We do know one thing with reasonable certainty; for every American
killed in this Iraq operation, we kill about 10 Iraqis. When we
calculate the cost of our venture, we must include all the dead, not
just Americans.

Norm Strong

[Nathan West]

Post by normanstrong
We do know one thing with reasonable certainty; for every American
killed in this Iraq operation, we kill about 10 Iraqis. When we
calculate the cost of our venture, we must include all the dead, not
just Americans.

And that is 1 American too many every time. But there is a lot to be said
for people who agreed to put themselves in harms way to defend what their
country has deemed to be the correct policies. They tend to have loads of
courage, which the people trying to kill the Americans, Italians,
Korean's etc... don't have.
And in general Iraqi's are not trying to kill the US soldiers. Psychotics
murderers with their own private agenda's are. There is a big difference.

--
Nathan

"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[Dave Martin]

"Nathan West" <***@nc.rr.com> wrote in message news:***@nc.rr.com...
They tend to have loads of

Post by Nathan West
courage, which the people trying to kill the Americans, Italians,
Korean's etc... don't have.

Umm.... You don't think it takes courage to be a suicide bomber?

[Nathan West]

Post by Dave Martin
Umm.... You don't think it takes courage to be a suicide bomber?

No I don't. I think it takes a misguided fanatical approach to archaic
principles. It is similar to asking if you think it takes courage to
blow your own brains out...what do you need?...1 or 2 ms decision time
and then your done. That's not courage.


--
Nathan

"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[playon]

Post by Nathan West

Post by Dave Martin
Umm.... You don't think it takes courage to be a suicide bomber?

No I don't. I think it takes a misguided fanatical approach to archaic
principles.

You mean like the misguided fanatical approach of GW Bush when he
invades a nation that had nothing to do with 9/11?

[playon]

Post by Nathan West

Post by normanstrong
We do know one thing with reasonable certainty; for every American
killed in this Iraq operation, we kill about 10 Iraqis. When we
calculate the cost of our venture, we must include all the dead, not
just Americans.

And that is 1 American too many every time. But there is a lot to be said
for people who agreed to put themselves in harms way to defend what their
country has deemed to be the correct policies. They tend to have loads of
courage, which the people trying to kill the Americans, Italians,
Korean's etc... don't have.
And in general Iraqi's are not trying to kill the US soldiers. Psychotics
murderers with their own private agenda's are. There is a big difference.

This is not true. Many regular Iraqis are fighting the US, who they
see as invaders and occupiers, not liberators. Even some of the Iraqi
athletes at the Olympics admitted that if they were home they would
probably be fighting the US occupation.

The Iraqi resistance is not a solid block, yep there are the nutjob
terrorists who are kidnapping and killing people, blowing up their own
citizens, etc, but Then there are also the militias that are focused
soley on fighting the US troops.

[Nathan West]

Post by normanstrong
We're rich enogh and sophisticated enough to deliver our
explosives with pinpoint accuracy from hundreds, maybe thousands of
miles away. The beauty of it is that we never know exactly who we're
killing, so there's no need to feel bad about the results.

You are clueless as to what soldiers go through when they have to kill
people. Very few of them are what you try to portray as *heartless
murderers* enjoying the romp.
Because of our Technological advances we do the have the power to beat
the crap out of people without getting our own troops killed. There is
much to be said about using that kind of intelligence versus just killing
off our troops. Or perhaps you would like it if we just sent our people
to be butchered, so you can feel better about it all?
--
Nathan

"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[George]

Post by Nathan West

Post by normanstrong
We're rich enogh and sophisticated enough to deliver our
explosives with pinpoint accuracy from hundreds, maybe thousands of
miles away. The beauty of it is that we never know exactly who we're
killing, so there's no need to feel bad about the results.

You are clueless as to what soldiers go through when they have to kill
people. Very few of them are what you try to portray as *heartless
murderers* enjoying the romp.
Because of our Technological advances we do the have the power to beat
the crap out of people without getting our own troops killed. There is
much to be said about using that kind of intelligence versus just killing
off our troops. Or perhaps you would like it if we just sent our people
to be butchered, so you can feel better about it all?
--
Nathan
"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

I would feel better if we stayed home
and not sent soldiers off to police other countries problems
George

[Nathan West]

Post by George
I would feel better if we stayed home
and not sent soldiers off to police other countries problems
George

I can understand the reluctance to put yourself or anyone else in a situation
that most likely will either kill or maim them for what is perceived as the
political issues of a foreign country. Worldwide Politics prevent that kind
of philosophy from occurring. And the US has been in the era of advanced world
citizenship since W.W.I. We no longer have the luxury of choice as to whether
we deal with the world or not.




--
Nathan

"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[playon]

Post by Nathan West

Post by normanstrong
We're rich enogh and sophisticated enough to deliver our
explosives with pinpoint accuracy from hundreds, maybe thousands of
miles away. The beauty of it is that we never know exactly who we're
killing, so there's no need to feel bad about the results.

You are clueless as to what soldiers go through when they have to kill
people.

I think the point is that it's one thing to kill people in battle,
it's another to kill them by remote control.

[Roger W. Norman]

Post by Nathan West
America Didn't create screwed up minds that decided brutally killing people
is a good policy to follow for the whole world. That is a by product of
people operating at the base emotional levels of life unwilling or unable to
advance beyond it.
Terrorist are wrong. They are not freedom fighters, Revolutionary Hero's or
any other euphemism people have dreamed up to excuse the horrific behavior.
Stop defending them.

Oh yes America did. But the concept is right, and it's the interpretation
that is wrong. The US equates might with right, at least under this
President. However, force and violence are not equivalent. Force has a
measurable effect, such as horsepower moving one pound one foot or the
measure of a calorie raising one ounce of water one degree F.

However, violence can only be measured by those victims it is ranged
against, whether it be those who have been raped, or those who have been
killed, and then perhaps it escalates into the number killed, such as has
been used time and time again by Bush to drive fear into the hearts of
Americans while he continues to ignore Osama bin Laden and focus our
attention on Iraq.

Look, this is a man who doesn't understand any of this stuff. Oh, he
understand politics, but he has no concept of the consequence of his
actions. The man sends young Americans off to war, and he doesn't even have
the kindly action of acknowledging the dead. He won't allow the returning
dead photographed, he won't speak to their specific valor in the service of
America, he won't meet with American parents of those dead soldiers, and he
won't attend even the most brave of their blessed souls' funerals. The man
has no concept of what he has wrought on the American life. His cronies are
working on the concept of a cultural war within America rather than
recognizing that he can't walk into Afghanistan nor Iraq and think he
understands THAT culture. In other words, by the reports from the "back
room" meetings of the RNC, the entire Republican stature is based on
dividing America into a cultural war. Without a totally supportive America
behind a President, there is no way any war on terror can be won, as George
W. Bush told Matt Lauer in the face of America, only to come back and say it
CAN be won and we are winning it.

Oh, the conflicts this man must be fighting within himself unfortunately are
being mirrored in American society today.

An example is that America suggests that the Chechnyan are freedom fighters
to Putin's face, while Putin's view is that they are terrorists, just like
we are fighting. The news today of Putin's outrage that American diplomats
are somehow trying to negotiate with what obviously are terrorists (and I
CAN go back and show how Al Qaeda has been involved in Chechnya) is totally
contraditory to Bush's stance on Iraq being a major effort on the war on
Terror, and against his statement that "You are with us or against us". If
another country being attacked doesn't know where America stands, just how
do you and I know where we stand?

So you see, George isn't supporting terrorists. He's supporting us as
American citizens who have the opportunity to say that one person's
"terrorists" are another person's freedom fighters. After all, he's the
somewhat annoited official of all America. If one applies that to Iraqis'
being the Freedom Fighters, then all that George Bush told us falls into a
little pile of shit if he can claim that the 30 who were responsible, one
way or the other, for as many as 450 deaths of Russian children and parents,
are "freedom fighters".

This should end any debate. George W. Bush isn't concerned about terrorism,
and it's been obvious for a couple of years to even the most blindered
people by now. He's interested in what he's interested in and the rest of
America be damned.

Well I hope this man rots in hell for an eternity for each and every one of
the soldiers that believed in him and died, and an additional eternity in
hell for each and ever innocent that has been killed by his actions. I'm
sure that Osama bin Laden will face his own retribution when he arrives for
judgement.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

Post by Nathan West

Post by George
America is doing great evil
America is creating terroists with it policy

--
Nathan
"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[Roger W. Norman]

Oh, and unfortunately, laughing at GWBush not gaining entrance past the
gates of heaven probably puts those that do so at risk.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

Post by Roger W. Norman

Post by Nathan West
America Didn't create screwed up minds that decided brutally killing

people

Post by Nathan West
is a good policy to follow for the whole world. That is a by product of
people operating at the base emotional levels of life unwilling or

unable

Post by Roger W. Norman
to

Post by Nathan West
advance beyond it.
Terrorist are wrong. They are not freedom fighters, Revolutionary Hero's

or

Post by Nathan West
any other euphemism people have dreamed up to excuse the horrific

behavior.

Post by Nathan West
Stop defending them.

Oh yes America did. But the concept is right, and it's the interpretation
that is wrong. The US equates might with right, at least under this
President. However, force and violence are not equivalent. Force has a
measurable effect, such as horsepower moving one pound one foot or the
measure of a calorie raising one ounce of water one degree F.
However, violence can only be measured by those victims it is ranged
against, whether it be those who have been raped, or those who have been
killed, and then perhaps it escalates into the number killed, such as has
been used time and time again by Bush to drive fear into the hearts of
Americans while he continues to ignore Osama bin Laden and focus our
attention on Iraq.
Look, this is a man who doesn't understand any of this stuff. Oh, he
understand politics, but he has no concept of the consequence of his
actions. The man sends young Americans off to war, and he doesn't even have
the kindly action of acknowledging the dead. He won't allow the returning
dead photographed, he won't speak to their specific valor in the service of
America, he won't meet with American parents of those dead soldiers, and he
won't attend even the most brave of their blessed souls' funerals. The man
has no concept of what he has wrought on the American life. His cronies are
working on the concept of a cultural war within America rather than
recognizing that he can't walk into Afghanistan nor Iraq and think he
understands THAT culture. In other words, by the reports from the "back
room" meetings of the RNC, the entire Republican stature is based on
dividing America into a cultural war. Without a totally supportive America
behind a President, there is no way any war on terror can be won, as George
W. Bush told Matt Lauer in the face of America, only to come back and say it
CAN be won and we are winning it.
Oh, the conflicts this man must be fighting within himself unfortunately are
being mirrored in American society today.
An example is that America suggests that the Chechnyan are freedom fighters
to Putin's face, while Putin's view is that they are terrorists, just like
we are fighting. The news today of Putin's outrage that American diplomats
are somehow trying to negotiate with what obviously are terrorists (and I
CAN go back and show how Al Qaeda has been involved in Chechnya) is totally
contraditory to Bush's stance on Iraq being a major effort on the war on
Terror, and against his statement that "You are with us or against us".

If

Post by Roger W. Norman
another country being attacked doesn't know where America stands, just how
do you and I know where we stand?
So you see, George isn't supporting terrorists. He's supporting us as
American citizens who have the opportunity to say that one person's
"terrorists" are another person's freedom fighters. After all, he's the
somewhat annoited official of all America. If one applies that to Iraqis'
being the Freedom Fighters, then all that George Bush told us falls into a
little pile of shit if he can claim that the 30 who were responsible, one
way or the other, for as many as 450 deaths of Russian children and parents,
are "freedom fighters".
This should end any debate. George W. Bush isn't concerned about terrorism,
and it's been obvious for a couple of years to even the most blindered
people by now. He's interested in what he's interested in and the rest of
America be damned.
Well I hope this man rots in hell for an eternity for each and every one of
the soldiers that believed in him and died, and an additional eternity in
hell for each and ever innocent that has been killed by his actions. I'm
sure that Osama bin Laden will face his own retribution when he arrives for
judgement.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

Post by Nathan West

Post by George
America is doing great evil
America is creating terroists with it policy

--
Nathan
"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[Nathan West]

Post by Roger W. Norman
Oh yes America did.

We'll stop right here and talk about accountability for ones actions. That is
the one thing that all lunatic murdering terrorist don't have. Nor do they care
about the consequences of their actions over time. Ever.

The differences between the US and terrorist organizations, whether you believe
it or not, is the we do ultimately care how we act. We do realize the folly of
our blunders and celebrate our success's. The foreign policy of the US is a
fluid process, one in which we learn from the sum of the parts, and try to make
sense of it. The History of the US shows a country who basic elements of it's
government are heavily weighted towards doing what's right.

To sus out Bush as the *problem* or to try and make his cabinet responsible for
the last 100 years of world politics is ridiculous. In the scheme of things, if
Bush isn't re-elected, then who do you blame for things that started in the
40's? Or if you don't recall your history, that is the time that contrary to
what the rest of the middle east wanted, Israel was made a nation by Allied
decision. That is what started the lunatic fringe on their current path.







--
Nathan

"Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations"

[playon]

Post by Nathan West
The foreign policy of the US is a
fluid process, one in which we learn from the sum of the parts, and try to make
sense of it.

The evidence suggests we have learned very little. Our foreign policy
continues to be run by arrogant Ivy League graduates who think they
know what's right for the world. The history of CIA interventions in
the last 50 years ought to be enough give you pause, should you care
to read it. Most of these covert and overt actions were
anti-democratic, caused the deaths of countless innocents, and in the
long run came back to bite us on the ass.

Post by Nathan West
The History of the US shows a country who basic elements of it's
government are heavily weighted towards doing what's right.

Depends what version of history you read... the one written by the
powerful, or the one written by the weak and conquered.

[George]

Post by Nathan West

Post by Roger W. Norman
Oh yes America did.

We'll stop right here and talk about accountability for ones actions. That is
the one thing that all lunatic murdering terrorist don't have. Nor do they care
about the consequences of their actions over time. Ever.
The differences between the US and terrorist organizations, whether you believe
it or not, is the we do ultimately care how we act. We do realize the folly of
our blunders and celebrate our success's. The foreign policy of the US is a
fluid process, one in which we learn from the sum of the parts, and try to make
sense of it. The History of the US shows a country who basic elements of it's
government are heavily weighted towards doing what's right.
To sus out Bush as the *problem* or to try and make his cabinet responsible for
the last 100 years of world politics is ridiculous. In the scheme of things, if
Bush isn't re-elected, then who do you blame for things that started in the
40's? Or if you don't recall your history, that is the time that contrary to
what the rest of the middle east wanted, Israel was made a nation by Allied
decision. That is what started the lunatic fringe on their current path.

one can notundo the past
but we can make a better tomorrow by putting some one with both brains
and conscience in the White House
We can make the future better by stopping this war, TODAY
George

[ThePaulThomas]

Post by Kendall
Now, that we have all that in context, let me state that I did not read most
of your original post, once I realized it didn't relate to audio. I did,
however catch your final question, and I replied with my question. In your
answer here, I can see that yes, from a certain standpoint you do have some
relevant points. However, that is NOT why I come to this particular forum.
I come here for audio, and audio alone. I suggest that if you wish to carry
on OT posts (some of which aren't even marked as such, such as this one)
that you go start another newsgroup like rec.audio.political.discussions or
some such, and post a link to it here. That way, the people who DO want to
discuss those things can do so, and it will actually be ON TOPIC, unlike it
is here. Then, for those of us who don't wish to read off topic stuff won't
have to wade through the preponderance of OT posts where it is clearly
against the charter (as has been pointed out numerous times), and avoid the
flame-fests which benefit nobody, and turn audio professional against audio
professional. There are a number of people here who I have a lesser respect
for than if I had never heard (metaphorically speaking) them getting into
pointless flame wars over stuff that isn't supposed to be here in the first
place. Yes, I can understand wanting to discuss things like this, but it
does not belong here. Create somepace where it will be more apropos, and the
people who are interested will join you there.
If I knew you were a strict Vegan, and visited a Vegan meeting with you, how
appreciative would the group be if I stood up and began recounting how much
I like beef, and grilling pork? It would be out of place, would it not?
Therefore, I wouldn't do that, out of courtesy to the group at large. Now,
if it were a meeting of Beeflovers International, well those comments would
be appropriate.
This is a group of audio people, and yes, they have definite political
views. But, with certain exceptions, they don't usually discuss them unless
"goaded" into it, or inflamed by someone else's differing viewpoint.
As far as people marching off, yes, I've noticed that some of our members
here have gone away, remarking how it was a pity that this forum had to go
down the toilet as well. If we ALL try, we can change that. It would
require that certain persons refrained from starting OT posts in the first
place. Maybe we could try that for a while?
I repeat; It does not belong here. You have not changed that, or my
opinion about it. It does not belong here.
Kendall

Kendall,
While I certainly agree with you that some topics do not belong on
this group I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for things to change. At
this point even when people _do_ stick to a strictly audio topic you
can expect someone like Phil Allison to show up and start attacking
people with assinine name calling and childish outbursts. Now I can
hardly tolerate reading the _audio_ threads because they contain
nearly as many bitter, venomous sentiments as the political threads
seem to inspire. There are way too many pissed off people with too
little self-control on this group lately. :-(

[Pete Dimsman]

Post by ThePaulThomas
There are way too many pissed off people with too
little self-control on this group lately. :-(

It ain't just this group. Welcome to Bush's 21st century.

[Ty Ford]

Post by Kendall
As far as people marching off, yes, I've noticed that some of our members
here have gone away, remarking how it was a pity that this forum had to go
down the toilet as well. If we ALL try, we can change that. It would
require that certain persons refrained from starting OT posts in the first
place. Maybe we could try that for a while?
I repeat; It does not belong here. You have not changed that, or my opinion
about it. It does not belong here.
Kendall

Kendall, et al,

I couldn't agree more.

Regards,

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[killermike]

Post by Roger W. Norman
Hey, why don't you tell me why it doesn't apply to audio or to life as a
business in the first place. Tell me how what I'm talking about doesn't
effect your business, or others.

I agree, this isn't anything to do with audio. These are world events
which affect the whole world and everyone in the world to some extent.
So are other things - environmentalism would just be one example.

These threads are nearly always American-centric. Tell me, what would
you judge to have been the principle events this year in Norway? Should
rec.audio.pro be used as a forum to discuss them? America is 5% of the
worlds population.

Perhaps you should explicitly state exactly what you think RAP is for.
What is on topic, professional audio and 9/11 orientated politics?
Anything that interests you or anyone else?

Why don't you post these things into one of the politics groups? Why
have an hierarchy in Usenet if any group can be used to post threads on
any topic? I'm sure a lot of people come onto these groups to get away
from world events. I don't think that you could claim that these
political topics are not being raised in other forums and other mediums.

Sorry if I seem to getting at you but people not obeying the Usenet
hierarchy is a pet hate of mine. Maybe you could participate in the
political threads in other channels and place a pointer to the
discussion in this group? Then you could have the opinions of other
audio professionals.

[Bob Cain]

Post by killermike
Why don't you post these things into one of the politics groups?

Scott Fraser summarized the reason we do it here in an
earlier post.

Mike, if you are tired of hearing this just tell me to
bugger off, but you, among us, are the only one who knows
the ropes for setting up a new usenet group from the
exellent job you did with the h-s group. You would be a
real hero to a lot of people if you could turn that
expertise toward the establishment of a rec.audio.pro.saloon
group where these discussions could be partitioned but would
likely have the same participants.


Bob

[Ty Ford]

Post by Bob Cain

Post by killermike
Why don't you post these things into one of the politics groups?

Scott Fraser summarized the reason we do it here in an
earlier post.
Mike, if you are tired of hearing this just tell me to
bugger off, but you, among us, are the only one who knows
the ropes for setting up a new usenet group from the
exellent job you did with the h-s group. You would be a
real hero to a lot of people if you could turn that
expertise toward the establishment of a rec.audio.pro.saloon
group where these discussions could be partitioned but would
likely have the same participants.
Bob

Jesus Mike, do it so the rest of us can have some peace around here. You'll
be fucking cannonized.

Regards,

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Ty Ford]

Post by killermike

Post by Roger W. Norman
Hey, why don't you tell me why it doesn't apply to audio or to life as a
business in the first place. Tell me how what I'm talking about doesn't
effect your business, or others.

I agree, this isn't anything to do with audio. These are world events
which affect the whole world and everyone in the world to some extent.
So are other things - environmentalism would just be one example.
These threads are nearly always American-centric. Tell me, what would
you judge to have been the principle events this year in Norway? Should
rec.audio.pro be used as a forum to discuss them? America is 5% of the
worlds population.
Perhaps you should explicitly state exactly what you think RAP is for.
What is on topic, professional audio and 9/11 orientated politics?
Anything that interests you or anyone else?
Why don't you post these things into one of the politics groups? Why
have an hierarchy in Usenet if any group can be used to post threads on
any topic? I'm sure a lot of people come onto these groups to get away
from world events. I don't think that you could claim that these
political topics are not being raised in other forums and other mediums.
Sorry if I seem to getting at you but people not obeying the Usenet
hierarchy is a pet hate of mine. Maybe you could participate in the
political threads in other channels and place a pointer to the
discussion in this group? Then you could have the opinions of other
audio professionals.

I DARE Roger, Pete and the others to do just that, or start their own
newsgroup. Oddly, even though it's apparent that their comments are not
welcome here, they don't seem to have what it takes.

Ty Ford

-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Bob Cain]

Post by Ty Ford
I DARE Roger, Pete and the others to do just that, or start their own
newsgroup. Oddly, even though it's apparent that their comments are not
welcome here, they don't seem to have what it takes.

You, sir, are making yourself irrelevant with all of your
pompous, ad-hominen crap.


Bob

[Pete Dimsman]

Post by Ty Ford
I DARE Roger, Pete and the others to do just that, or start their own
newsgroup. Oddly, even though it's apparent that their comments are
not welcome here, they don't seem to have what it takes.

You, sir, are making yourself irrelevant with all of your pompous,
ad-hominen crap.

And notice he rarely mentions Will, his political mouth piece.

[WillStG]

Post by Pete Dimsman
And notice he rarely mentions Will, his political mouth piece.

You are way too full of yourself to have any kind of a grasp on reality
Dimbulb.

Fact is, Ty sent me an email telling me to shut the F up. When I pointed
out that what he had quoted that I wrote was actually pretty much on topic and
asked him to give me an F'n break, he shot back that should give the group and
"F'n break.

See Ty has the respect of the regulars in this group, he is actually an
audio professional. But almost nobody, even those who agree with your politics
have such an opinion of you. Make about 300 *and ten* on topic posts, maybe
you can change that by getting your OT to On-topic ration to about 50-50.
Short of that shills are like trolls, not greatly appreciated.

You ain't helping yourself or your Candidate anyway.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[Ty Ford]

Post by WillStG

Post by Pete Dimsman
And notice he rarely mentions Will, his political mouth piece.

You are way too full of yourself to have any kind of a grasp on reality
Dimbulb.
Fact is, Ty sent me an email telling me to shut the F up. When I pointed
out that what he had quoted that I wrote was actually pretty much on topic and
asked him to give me an F'n break, he shot back that should give the group and
"F'n break.
See Ty has the respect of the regulars in this group, he is actually an
audio professional. But almost nobody, even those who agree with your politics
have such an opinion of you. Make about 300 *and ten* on topic posts, maybe
you can change that by getting your OT to On-topic ration to about 50-50.
Short of that shills are like trolls, not greatly appreciated.
You ain't helping yourself or your Candidate anyway.
Will Miho

Thank you Will. Peter and Bob should leave to start afresh in a new land
where they can create the sort of personalized landscape that pleases them.
They wanna come back and talk audio, fine, we'll stamp their visas, let 'em
in and show them the door as we are now when they need to talk politics,
religion or other OT stuff. You'll notice Bob, I had no complaints about the
doppler string.

Regards,

Ty Ford




-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[playon]

Post by Ty Ford
They wanna come back and talk audio, fine, we'll stamp their visas

Who made you the border guard?

[Don Cooper]

Post by playon
Who made you the border guard?

Less than half the people, I would suspect.

The group is unmoderated.

[Ty Ford]

Post by Ty Ford
I DARE Roger, Pete and the others to do just that, or start their own
newsgroup. Oddly, even though it's apparent that their comments are
not welcome here, they don't seem to have what it takes.

You, sir, are making yourself irrelevant with all of your pompous,
ad-hominen crap.

As usual, Bob, you describe yourself; irrelevant to the charter of this news
group. Or is it that you just think you're above everyone else?

Ty Ford


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[Roger W. Norman]

Hey, I said I didn't have the time to start rec.audio.pro.whatever and asked
for help. No one seemed to reply. I try to keep my statements down to a
minimum. I haven't been on the group for more than one or two days a week
and I don't always have something to say then.

When I have something to say, it's because I believe it needs to be said.

For instance, did you know that with all of Bush's ranting about supporting
our troops, his "no overtime" mandate gives specific mention to those
trained in the military as not being eligible for overtime although they
most likely won't be able to get any jobs that are anything but an hourly
wage job (believe me, as a Viet Nam vet, I know about vets' ability to get
good jobs). That means not only did Georgie Boy screw the vets out of VA
benefits by $2.5 Bil per year for the next 4 years, but he put the screws to
the guys that come back home somewhat healthy enough to work for a living.

But since Bush has used mostly National Guard, and NG personnel employers
are only under the gun to offer the same/equivalent job/pay for a sixth
month period, that Bush has screwed about 200k soldiers he purports to
support out of jobs and out of benefits.

This is why I get so damned mad.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

Post by Ty Ford

Post by Ty Ford
I DARE Roger, Pete and the others to do just that, or start their own
newsgroup. Oddly, even though it's apparent that their comments are
not welcome here, they don't seem to have what it takes.

You, sir, are making yourself irrelevant with all of your pompous,
ad-hominen crap.

As usual, Bob, you describe yourself; irrelevant to the charter of this news
group. Or is it that you just think you're above everyone else?
Ty Ford
-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other

audiocentric

Post by Ty Ford
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[killermike]

Roger W. Norman wrote:
[sent in email and within the group]

Post by Roger W. Norman
Hey, I said I didn't have the time to start rec.audio.pro.whatever and asked
for help. No one seemed to reply. I try to keep my statements down to a

I missed your request for help in setting up a new group. I know a
little bit about creating group as I created alt.music.home-studio. This
is my understanding of the procedure involved in creating a group on the
(quite different) rec.* hierarchy. I might be sketchy on a few points
but this is what it boils down to:

When creating a new group on the rec.* hierarchy, there is a fair amount
of procedure to be observed. Typically, it might take three months for a
new group to be created. This procedure cannot be avoided. Basically,
the group is first formally proposed in news.announce.newgroups. It is
then discussed in another group. According to the rules, it must be
discussed for at least 21 days. When the discussions have reached a
conclusion, a vote is carried out. The votes are collected by an
independent volunteer. 2/3 of the valid votes must be in favor of the
new group. There must also be a gap of 100 votes between the number of
votes for and against.

As you can see, there is a lot to it. It's not something that is
undertaken lightly - it's a project. You would have to propose the idea
in RAP and get people interested enough to vote in favor of the idea.
You would have to recruit a team of helpers who support the idea to
spread some of the work.

Here is a guide to the procedure:
http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html

I'm not personally willing to do all of the work for this. Basically, I
am not a regular on RAP, I tend to lurk here. I spend all of my efforts
on alt.music.home-studio. However, I am in favor of the idea and I am
willing to be a helper whereas the project should be headed by a regular
who supports the idea.

Personally, I support the idea. One of the justifications for amh-s was
that RAP just gets simply *too much* traffic. It's difficult to keep on
top of RAP and requires a fair investment of time each and every day.
Anything that splits the group and makes the traffic more reasonable is
a good idea, IMO. If no one here is determined enough to see the idea
through, it's not going to happen.

Also, be prepared to don heat resistant underpants, this topic is going
to raise quite a few tempers IMO.

I like the sound of rec.audio.pro.offtopic BTW.

[playon]

On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:59:47 -0400, "Roger W. Norman"

Post by Roger W. Norman
Hey, I said I didn't have the time to start rec.audio.pro.whatever and asked
for help. No one seemed to reply. I try to keep my statements down to a
minimum. I haven't been on the group for more than one or two days a week
and I don't always have something to say then.
When I have something to say, it's because I believe it needs to be said.
For instance, did you know that with all of Bush's ranting about supporting
our troops, his "no overtime" mandate gives specific mention to those
trained in the military as not being eligible for overtime although they
most likely won't be able to get any jobs that are anything but an hourly
wage job (believe me, as a Viet Nam vet, I know about vets' ability to get
good jobs). That means not only did Georgie Boy screw the vets out of VA
benefits by $2.5 Bil per year for the next 4 years, but he put the screws to
the guys that come back home somewhat healthy enough to work for a living.
But since Bush has used mostly National Guard, and NG personnel employers
are only under the gun to offer the same/equivalent job/pay for a sixth
month period, that Bush has screwed about 200k soldiers he purports to
support out of jobs and out of benefits.
This is why I get so damned mad.

He also tried to close three VA hospitals here in Washington state.

[agent86]

Post by killermike

Post by Roger W. Norman
Hey, why don't you tell me why it doesn't apply to audio or to life as a
business in the first place. Tell me how what I'm talking about doesn't
effect your business, or others.

I agree, this isn't anything to do with audio. These are world events
which affect the whole world and everyone in the world to some extent.
So are other things - environmentalism would just be one example.
These threads are nearly always American-centric.

True, but would you deny that the policies & actions of the President of
the USA have an effect on the rest of the world in this day & age?

Post by killermike
Tell me, what would
you judge to have been the principle events this year in Norway?

Don't know. If You're in Norway & feel compelled, I, for one, am all ears.

Post by killermike
Should
rec.audio.pro be used as a forum to discuss them? America is 5% of the
worlds population.

I suspect Americans make up way more than 5% of RAP
posters/readers/subscribers. And probably way more than 5% of audio
engineers & techs worldwide. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Post by killermike
Perhaps you should explicitly state exactly what you think RAP is for.
What is on topic, professional audio and 9/11 orientated politics?
Anything that interests you or anyone else?
Why don't you post these things into one of the politics groups? Why
have an hierarchy in Usenet if any group can be used to post threads on
any topic? I'm sure a lot of people come onto these groups to get away
from world events. I don't think that you could claim that these
political topics are not being raised in other forums and other mediums.
Sorry if I seem to getting at you but people not obeying the Usenet
hierarchy is a pet hate of mine.

I guess everybody is entitled to their own pet peeves. One of my biggest
ones is people who think they can control the fucking internet. If you're
one of those anal retentive control freaks, why dont you start your own
moderated news group. Granted, RAP has a charter, but the people who
started RAP don't OWN any part of the internet. Not even the tiny little
bit of bandwidth that RAT occupies. So, untill we see rec.audio.ty, or
rec.audio.killermike, or rec.audio.will, Roger can post whatever the hell
he wants. and anybody that has a problem with that can bite his ass. And
if they're still hungry, they can bite mine too.

[Marc Wielage]

Post by Roger W. Norman
Hey, why don't you tell me why it doesn't apply to audio or to life as a
business in the first place. Tell me how what I'm talking about doesn't
effect your business, or others.
--------------------------------snip----------------------------------<

Roger, I agree with a lot of your sentiments, but this is a PRO AUDIO
DISCUSSION GROUP.

It'd be very helpful if you'd precede your non-audio threads with "OT," for
OFF-TOPIC.

Please.


--MFW
[remove the extra M above for email]

[Steven Sena]

And the band plays on...
--
Steven Sena
XS Sound Recording
www.xssound.com

Post by Roger W. Norman
I have to say that I am no longer going to accept any reasons for not
expressing my viewpoints. I have never lost the anger of 9/11 nor have I
accepted the repercussions of a Bush mandated America.
I wrote William Pitt a couple of times about being the speaker of the dead,
but he only spoke for those who died in Iraq under a false mandate. I speak
for the dead of 9/11 and those that have died since.
One wonders just what would have made another hurl themselves from a 110
story window as if they might, under some special dispensation from God,
survive. Or perhaps it was simply a matter of not desiring to die from
burning to death.
Certainly, if anyone believes in God, then it's easy to see that God must
have been on the side of the terrorists that day because they seemed to be
able to accomplish their dream and we seemed to be taken aback by the
atrocitity of an immoral attack.
Those who died on 9/11 didn't have George W. Bush in mind as they either
plunged to their deaths, or died where they stood as they were filing, or
talking around the water cooler, or getting their morning reports done.
Those who died did so immediately, thank God. But their deaths weren't
because of some terrorist attack. Their deaths were because somehow America
didn't see the possibility of terrorist attacks as being effective. In the
words of Frank Zappa, although for a different reasons "It can't happen
here". In the words of Condilezza Rice "No one could have foreseen that
terrorists would use airplanes as weapons", when, in fact the Hart-Rudman
study on terrorism said just exatly that. Gee, Connie, I suppose you didn't
read the reports.
I watch there images of destruction, of personal loss, of efforts of
humanity to help others, and what do I see? I see destruction, personal
loss and efforts of humatity to help others, and it has nothing to do with
George W. Bush.
The reason that I keep coming back to George W. Bush is that he didn't do
anything but make an appearance. New Yorkers did the job.
I don't think I can continue because this is just too hard to work through.
The worst day America experienced was GW on the firetruck, arm wrapped
around a 67 year old volunteer, saying that the whole world heard and those
responsible would pay.
And so Saddam is in jail.
Any questions?
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

[Roger W. Norman]

I know. I just get so frustrated and like most people in life, they take it
out on the ones they love. So there you have it.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

Post by Steven Sena
And the band plays on...
--
Steven Sena
XS Sound Recording
www.xssound.com

Post by Roger W. Norman
I have to say that I am no longer going to accept any reasons for not
expressing my viewpoints. I have never lost the anger of 9/11 nor have I
accepted the repercussions of a Bush mandated America.
I wrote William Pitt a couple of times about being the speaker of the dead,
but he only spoke for those who died in Iraq under a false mandate. I speak
for the dead of 9/11 and those that have died since.
One wonders just what would have made another hurl themselves from a 110
story window as if they might, under some special dispensation from God,
survive. Or perhaps it was simply a matter of not desiring to die from
burning to death.
Certainly, if anyone believes in God, then it's easy to see that God must
have been on the side of the terrorists that day because they seemed to be
able to accomplish their dream and we seemed to be taken aback by the
atrocitity of an immoral attack.
Those who died on 9/11 didn't have George W. Bush in mind as they either
plunged to their deaths, or died where they stood as they were filing, or
talking around the water cooler, or getting their morning reports done.
Those who died did so immediately, thank God. But their deaths weren't
because of some terrorist attack. Their deaths were because somehow America
didn't see the possibility of terrorist attacks as being effective. In the
words of Frank Zappa, although for a different reasons "It can't happen
here". In the words of Condilezza Rice "No one could have foreseen that
terrorists would use airplanes as weapons", when, in fact the Hart-Rudman
study on terrorism said just exatly that. Gee, Connie, I suppose you didn't
read the reports.
I watch there images of destruction, of personal loss, of efforts of
humanity to help others, and what do I see? I see destruction, personal
loss and efforts of humatity to help others, and it has nothing to do with
George W. Bush.
The reason that I keep coming back to George W. Bush is that he didn't do
anything but make an appearance. New Yorkers did the job.
I don't think I can continue because this is just too hard to work through.
The worst day America experienced was GW on the firetruck, arm wrapped
around a 67 year old volunteer, saying that the whole world heard and those
responsible would pay.
And so Saddam is in jail.
Any questions?
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

[Blind Joni]

Post by Roger W. Norman
I know. I just get so frustrated and like most people in life, they take it
out on the ones they love. So there you have it.

There must be a way for an intelligent guy like yourself to find a way to stop
this behavior. If these events really are affecting you so personally there may
be something else going on.
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Don Cooper]

Post by Blind Joni
There must be a way for an intelligent guy like yourself to find a way to stop
this behavior. If these events really are affecting you so personally there may
be something else going on.

Why *wouldn't* these events affect someone so personally? Every knows
the numbers. I don't need to reapeat them.

Perhaps we just got a reminder this past week with the show they put on
in the Garden.

When I was a kid, I saw the Circus in the Garden. All that was missing
this past week was the other two rings.

What is wrong with these people?

[Blind Joni]

Post by Don Cooper
Why *wouldn't* these events affect someone so personally? Every knows
the numbers. I don't need to reapeat them.

Well...let's see...something happens ..to none of us personally..no matter how
much we hate it....so we take it out on our families???
Healthy perspective??

Post by Don Cooper
What is wrong with these people?

What's wrong is that they don't share your opinion. I know a lot of people
don't share mine on a lot of important things to me..but I don't yell at my
mother because of it.
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Don Cooper]

Post by Blind Joni
Well...let's see...something happens ..to none of us personally..no matter how
much we hate it....so we take it out on our families???
Healthy perspective??

Do you know something about my family that I don't know?

Post by Blind Joni

Post by Don Cooper
What is wrong with these people?

What's wrong is that they don't share your opinion. I know a lot of people
don't share mine on a lot of important things to me..but I don't yell at my
mother because of it.

My mother passed away, so I'm still not following.

Of course everyone has their own opinion, and that's a natural and good thing.

What's wrong, is the travesty that these people (the ones in NY this
week), took the most horrible event of my lifetime in my hometown, and
have been exploiting it for the past three years.

I, for one, and I don't give a flying fuck if I'm the only one, took
offense at the "bullhorn" speech that Bush gave. I saw it live on TV, or
as live as this administration would allow it to be.

Now, almost three years later, this is supposed to be a moment of
heroism and strength?

This guy needs to go, and January 20 is not a moment too soon.

[agent86]

Post by Blind Joni
There must be a way for an intelligent guy like yourself to find a way to
stop this behavior. If these events really are affecting you so personally
there may be something else going on.

Yes , there must be something going on....

Like, maybe, having a concience? Or, (heaven forbid) loving his country &
his fellow man more than some abstract ideology? Roger, you've got to seek
professional help right away before you do something that might possibly
make the world a better place.

You know, if the Romans had an internet, Jesus would have probably been the
biggest OT poster of all time. Of course, they crucified him, so what does
that tell you?

[Blind Joni]

Post by Blind Joni
There must be a way for an intelligent guy like yourself to find a way to

Post by Blind Joni
stop this behavior. If these events really are affecting you so personally
there may be something else going on.

Yes , there must be something going on....
Like, maybe, having a concience? Or, (heaven forbid) loving his country &
his fellow man more than some abstract ideology?

Roger said he was"taking it out on loved ones"..I don't know what that means.
If we are upset it is always from some kind of problem with our own
integrity..which I'm sure most will try to argue..give it some thought.
And if the terrorists loved their country and fellow man more than some
abstract ideology we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. I just read
some C.S Lewis about 'national repentance'...written about Britain in
WW2..basically saying how many find it easier to forgive an enemy than a
neighbor.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[Pete Dimsman]

Post by Blind Joni
Roger said he was"taking it out on loved ones"..I don't know what that means.

It means he is sorry that his posting and getting it off his mind upsets
you. Because he luvs ya man!

[Roger W. Norman]

Come on, John, you do know what I meant by taking it out on loved ones. You
guys are my first conversation in the morning, maybe an hour before my wife
gets up. Certainly on weekends. You guys are the people that actually
understand what my wife labels as "obsession" in our love of music,
sometimes to the exclusion of all else, and certainly a consternation to our
loved ones when we pop up out of bed, run down to the studio and have to
come up with a new tune or song before it goes away.

In terms of a piano, RAP is the sounding board of the strings that both love
George Bush and have no love for George Bush. The analogy is astounding and
resounding to me.

If there's any group of people that is more attuned to the purity of sound
than engineers I don't know who they are. And if there's any group of
people that is more attuned to the purity of thought on a level of the most
hidden "known" people, I don't know who it is.

That you want RAP to be strictly an audio related group, I suggest you are
getting just that. Perhaps blame it on the "old boy" network of audio
engineers that wouldn't let a lot of us in, or blame it on some guys, like
Glenn Meadows, Bob Katz, George Massenburg, and even Gabe Weiner, who helped
developed this and other most august forums for discussion, and you'll have
strong opinions and you'll have the reflection of the economy on our already
assaulted industry, and you'll have so many other factors that, assuming one
is paying attention, something has to be said. Some of us are just doing
the saying. Others are watching and not lambasting us though they agree
with those that do, and yet others are watching and not participating
because of the calldowns that want to make such a group as this specific to
a task, yet here we are, with some 12 years that I've been on and off this
newsgroup, with virtually all of it documented by google and such, and we
still complain about having OUR rights invaded by such discussions. I've
said it before but I can't even believe that Gabe would have been so
straightlaced that he wouldn't have had something to say about what's been
going on for the last 3+ years.

But I could be wrong. Do we err on the side of the vocal, or on the side of
those that don't wish to be called down for their participation too? Tough
call.

My question is how not? How not be involved because all of what's happening
now somehow either adversely effects us or has a positive effect.
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

Post by Blind Joni

Post by Blind Joni
There must be a way for an intelligent guy like yourself to find a way to

Post by Blind Joni
stop this behavior. If these events really are affecting you so personally
there may be something else going on.

Yes , there must be something going on....
Like, maybe, having a concience? Or, (heaven forbid) loving his country &
his fellow man more than some abstract ideology?

Roger said he was"taking it out on loved ones"..I don't know what that means.
If we are upset it is always from some kind of problem with our own
integrity..which I'm sure most will try to argue..give it some thought.
And if the terrorists loved their country and fellow man more than some
abstract ideology we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. I just read
some C.S Lewis about 'national repentance'...written about Britain in
WW2..basically saying how many find it easier to forgive an enemy than a
neighbor.
John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[unknown]

Post by Roger W. Norman
I have to say that I am no longer going to accept any reasons for not
expressing my viewpoints. I have never lost the anger of 9/11 nor have I

Jesus, who cares about Your conscience in this AUDIO group.
Is it really so hard to find an audience that you have to use
this! AUDIO group.

[Ty Ford]

Dear Roger,

I never asked to to NOT opine, only to put it where it was appropriate.

You're obviously calling me out on this point. The fact that you fail to
recognize boundarys of the group and others in this group is the point.

That's your issue and, at your age, you'll likely die before correcting it.
I'm truly sorry about it, but like you, there's nothing I can do to stop you.
Call it your right if you wish. I'll call it Roger's Unsocialized Tragic
Flaw.

I will, however, continue to call you out on your flagrant abuse of the
charter of this newsgroup.

Very Truly Yours,

Ty Ford

Post by Roger W. Norman
I have to say that I am no longer going to accept any reasons for not
expressing my viewpoints. I have never lost the anger of 9/11 nor have I
accepted the repercussions of a Bush mandated America.
I wrote William Pitt a couple of times about being the speaker of the dead,
but he only spoke for those who died in Iraq under a false mandate. I speak
for the dead of 9/11 and those that have died since.
One wonders just what would have made another hurl themselves from a 110
story window as if they might, under some special dispensation from God,
survive. Or perhaps it was simply a matter of not desiring to die from
burning to death.
Certainly, if anyone believes in God, then it's easy to see that God must
have been on the side of the terrorists that day because they seemed to be
able to accomplish their dream and we seemed to be taken aback by the
atrocitity of an immoral attack.
Those who died on 9/11 didn't have George W. Bush in mind as they either
plunged to their deaths, or died where they stood as they were filing, or
talking around the water cooler, or getting their morning reports done.
Those who died did so immediately, thank God. But their deaths weren't
because of some terrorist attack. Their deaths were because somehow America
didn't see the possibility of terrorist attacks as being effective. In the
words of Frank Zappa, although for a different reasons "It can't happen
here". In the words of Condilezza Rice "No one could have foreseen that
terrorists would use airplanes as weapons", when, in fact the Hart-Rudman
study on terrorism said just exatly that. Gee, Connie, I suppose you didn't
read the reports.
I watch there images of destruction, of personal loss, of efforts of
humanity to help others, and what do I see? I see destruction, personal
loss and efforts of humatity to help others, and it has nothing to do with
George W. Bush.
The reason that I keep coming back to George W. Bush is that he didn't do
anything but make an appearance. New Yorkers did the job.
I don't think I can continue because this is just too hard to work through.
The worst day America experienced was GW on the firetruck, arm wrapped
around a 67 year old volunteer, saying that the whole world heard and those
responsible would pay.
And so Saddam is in jail.
Any questions?

-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

[reddred]

Post by Roger W. Norman
I have to say that I am no longer going to accept any reasons for not
expressing my viewpoints. I have never lost the anger of 9/11 nor have I
accepted the repercussions of a Bush mandated America.

OK.

Let me start by saying that your political posts, the ones I've read, tend
to be pretty well-thought-out and eloquent. That differentiates your posts
from certain others, and it's the content of 'evil-abusive-trollish' posts
that I have a problem with, not the off-topic nature of them. The 'evil'
posts happen in on-and-off-topic thread.

I'm one of those people that, the way the situaution is, doesn't care. I
only care inasmuch as my participating in political threads takes away from
;pro-audio' time which has been in short supply lately. If one out of twenty
threads is political, it doesn't bother me, and it's not even that frequent.
If it was above ten percent of the total threads, I'd start to feel
concerned.

I use two newsreaders on many different machines and universally have the
facility to 'sort by thread'. I ignore half the threads anyway, so a few
more to ignore doesn't bug me.

But there are other people's opinions to consider, and some people seem
really taken aback not so much by OT posts, but political OT posts. OTOH, I
agree with you in that these things are incredibly important for people to
discuss, and I feel that there are facts which need to be brought out, about
current events and hsitorical events, that are best reiterated as often as
possible in every possible media.

So there is a balancing act. Apparently Ty Ford is particualrly annoyed by
the political posts, and I think his feelings need to be respected. At the
same time, I think you have the right to post your thoughts about things you
care about, in a place where your friends hang out too. Maybe you guys
should compromise.

I don't think anybody should be tolerated who comes up and is downright
abusive, they need to clean up or get out. That's the problem right now IMO,
and usenet being what it is, it's difficult to control.

jb

Post by Roger W. Norman
I wrote William Pitt a couple of times about being the speaker of the dead,
but he only spoke for those who died in Iraq under a false mandate. I speak
for the dead of 9/11 and those that have died since.
One wonders just what would have made another hurl themselves from a 110
story window as if they might, under some special dispensation from God,
survive. Or perhaps it was simply a matter of not desiring to die from
burning to death.
Certainly, if anyone believes in God, then it's easy to see that God must
have been on the side of the terrorists that day because they seemed to be
able to accomplish their dream and we seemed to be taken aback by the
atrocitity of an immoral attack.
Those who died on 9/11 didn't have George W. Bush in mind as they either
plunged to their deaths, or died where they stood as they were filing, or
talking around the water cooler, or getting their morning reports done.
Those who died did so immediately, thank God. But their deaths weren't
because of some terrorist attack. Their deaths were because somehow America
didn't see the possibility of terrorist attacks as being effective. In the
words of Frank Zappa, although for a different reasons "It can't happen
here". In the words of Condilezza Rice "No one could have foreseen that
terrorists would use airplanes as weapons", when, in fact the Hart-Rudman
study on terrorism said just exatly that. Gee, Connie, I suppose you didn't
read the reports.
I watch there images of destruction, of personal loss, of efforts of
humanity to help others, and what do I see? I see destruction, personal
loss and efforts of humatity to help others, and it has nothing to do with
George W. Bush.
The reason that I keep coming back to George W. Bush is that he didn't do
anything but make an appearance. New Yorkers did the job.
I don't think I can continue because this is just too hard to work through.
The worst day America experienced was GW on the firetruck, arm wrapped
around a 67 year old volunteer, saying that the whole world heard and those
responsible would pay.
And so Saddam is in jail.
Any questions?
--
Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

[Blind Joni]

Post by reddred
But there are other people's opinions to consider, and some people seem
really taken aback not so much by OT posts, but political OT posts. OTOH, I
agree with you in that these things are incredibly important for people to
discuss, and I feel that there are facts which need to be brought out, about
current events and hsitorical events, that are best reiterated as often as
possible in every possible media.

It's curious how the OT political threads rile so many to anger and name
calling but
the real concerns of audio seem to have so much less effect.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

[reddred]

Post by Blind Joni

Post by reddred
But there are other people's opinions to consider, and some people seem
really taken aback not so much by OT posts, but political OT posts. OTOH, I
agree with you in that these things are incredibly important for people to
discuss, and I feel that there are facts which need to be brought out, about
current events and hsitorical events, that are best reiterated as often as
possible in every possible media.

It's curious how the OT political threads rile so many to anger and name
calling but
the real concerns of audio seem to have so much less effect.

Well, I don't want to say something that sounds like a hallmark card, but
politics can be divisive, where art can bring people together. Even if you
are arguing about Audio, you know at some point that you're arguing with one
of the few others who cares at all.

jb

[Bob Cain]

Post by Blind Joni
It's curious how the OT political threads rile so many to anger and name
calling but
the real concerns of audio seem to have so much less effect.

Try questioning or trying to quantify Doppler mixing. I was
astonished to find how politicized a technical matter could
be. :-)


Bob

[Blind Joni]

Post by Bob Cain
Try questioning or trying to quantify Doppler mixing. I was
astonished to find how politicized a technical matter could
be. :-)

I watched that one from the sidelines..didn't have time to keep up. :)


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637