Discussion:
Surviving Hollands
(too old to reply)
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-07-01 21:22:26 UTC
Permalink
Back in 2014, in https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/47wlQQ5ODME/fqtDQKwTCiUJ,
John Higgins said that the Hollands of Denton had no apparent connection to the Hollands of Exeter. However, Todd Farmerie recently told me that a series of charts posted in Wikipedia, apparently from the late 19th century or early 20th century, Loading Image..., Loading Image... and Loading Image..., would make both the Hollands of Denton and the Hollands of Conway part of the same male line as the Hollands of Exeter.
He also said that those lines may still survive. After reading John Higgins's post, I can confirm that, at the least, the Hollands of Denton, still survive. The Viscounts Knutsford are descended from them.
John Higgins
2020-07-02 02:51:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Back in 2014, in https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/47wlQQ5ODME/fqtDQKwTCiUJ,
John Higgins said that the Hollands of Denton had no apparent connection to the Hollands of Exeter. However, Todd Farmerie recently told me that a series of charts posted in Wikipedia, apparently from the late 19th century or early 20th century, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Hollands_of_Upholland_in_Lancashire.jpg, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/A_Pedigree_of_the_Family_of_Holland_of_Conway.jpg and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Pedigree_of_the_Hollands_of_Upholland_and_Denton.jpg, would make both the Hollands of Denton and the Hollands of Conway part of the same male line as the Hollands of Exeter.
He also said that those lines may still survive. After reading John Higgins's post, I can confirm that, at the least, the Hollands of Denton, still survive. The Viscounts Knutsford are descended from them.
What is the source of these charts? Who developed them and where were they first published?

(And don't just say "Wikipedia"...)
P J Evans
2020-07-02 03:39:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Back in 2014, in https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/47wlQQ5ODME/fqtDQKwTCiUJ,
John Higgins said that the Hollands of Denton had no apparent connection to the Hollands of Exeter. However, Todd Farmerie recently told me that a series of charts posted in Wikipedia, apparently from the late 19th century or early 20th century, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Hollands_of_Upholland_in_Lancashire.jpg, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/A_Pedigree_of_the_Family_of_Holland_of_Conway.jpg and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Pedigree_of_the_Hollands_of_Upholland_and_Denton.jpg, would make both the Hollands of Denton and the Hollands of Conway part of the same male line as the Hollands of Exeter.
He also said that those lines may still survive. After reading John Higgins's post, I can confirm that, at the least, the Hollands of Denton, still survive. The Viscounts Knutsford are descended from them.
What is the source of these charts? Who developed them and where were they first published?
(And don't just say "Wikipedia"...)
It appears to be "The Lancashire Hollands", by Bernard Henry Holland, published in 1917. Internet Archive has it; there's and index to the pedigree charts that appear in the book. The first one is the one facing the first page of Chapter I, which is on the Hollands of Upholland.
taf
2020-07-02 04:34:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by P J Evans
Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Back in 2014, in https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/47wlQQ5ODME/fqtDQKwTCiUJ,
John Higgins said that the Hollands of Denton had no apparent connection to the Hollands of Exeter. However, Todd Farmerie recently told me that a series of charts posted in Wikipedia, apparently from the late 19th century or early 20th century, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Hollands_of_Upholland_in_Lancashire.jpg, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/A_Pedigree_of_the_Family_of_Holland_of_Conway.jpg and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Pedigree_of_the_Hollands_of_Upholland_and_Denton.jpg, would make both the Hollands of Denton and the Hollands of Conway part of the same male line as the Hollands of Exeter.
He also said that those lines may still survive. After reading John Higgins's post, I can confirm that, at the least, the Hollands of Denton, still survive. The Viscounts Knutsford are descended from them.
What is the source of these charts? Who developed them and where were they first published?
(And don't just say "Wikipedia"...)
It appears to be "The Lancashire Hollands", by Bernard Henry Holland, published in 1917. Internet Archive has it; there's and index to the pedigree charts that appear in the book. The first one is the one facing the first page of Chapter I, which is on the Hollands of Upholland.
That is where one is from. The other I just found in "A history of the family of Holland of Mobberley and Knutsford" by Edgar Swinton Holland, 1902. Unfortunately, as is often the case, the copy I found at Hathi and Internet Archive did not consider the chart worth scanning, but I could see just enough of the far right of the table to see that it matches.

taf
taf
2020-07-02 04:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by P J Evans
Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Back in 2014, in https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/47wlQQ5ODME/fqtDQKwTCiUJ,
John Higgins said that the Hollands of Denton had no apparent connection to the Hollands of Exeter. However, Todd Farmerie recently told me that a series of charts posted in Wikipedia, apparently from the late 19th century or early 20th century, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Hollands_of_Upholland_in_Lancashire.jpg, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/A_Pedigree_of_the_Family_of_Holland_of_Conway.jpg and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Pedigree_of_the_Hollands_of_Upholland_and_Denton.jpg, would make both the Hollands of Denton and the Hollands of Conway part of the same male line as the Hollands of Exeter.
He also said that those lines may still survive. After reading John Higgins's post, I can confirm that, at the least, the Hollands of Denton, still survive. The Viscounts Knutsford are descended from them.
What is the source of these charts? Who developed them and where were they first published?
(And don't just say "Wikipedia"...)
It appears to be "The Lancashire Hollands", by Bernard Henry Holland, published in 1917. Internet Archive has it; there's and index to the pedigree charts that appear in the book. The first one is the one facing the first page of Chapter I, which is on the Hollands of Upholland.
That is where one is from. The other I just found in "A history of the family of Holland of Mobberley and Knutsford" by Edgar Swinton Holland, 1902. Unfortunately, as is often the case, the copy I found at Hathi and Internet Archive did not consider the chart worth scanning, but I could see just enough of the far right of the table to see that it matches.
The same is true for the Google Books copy, but Ancestry has a copy with the full chart, split in two at exactly the same place - the uploader got it from the Ancestry copy.

taf
John Higgins
2020-07-02 05:09:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by taf
Post by P J Evans
Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Back in 2014, in https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/47wlQQ5ODME/fqtDQKwTCiUJ,
John Higgins said that the Hollands of Denton had no apparent connection to the Hollands of Exeter. However, Todd Farmerie recently told me that a series of charts posted in Wikipedia, apparently from the late 19th century or early 20th century, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Hollands_of_Upholland_in_Lancashire.jpg, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/A_Pedigree_of_the_Family_of_Holland_of_Conway.jpg and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Pedigree_of_the_Hollands_of_Upholland_and_Denton.jpg, would make both the Hollands of Denton and the Hollands of Conway part of the same male line as the Hollands of Exeter.
He also said that those lines may still survive. After reading John Higgins's post, I can confirm that, at the least, the Hollands of Denton, still survive. The Viscounts Knutsford are descended from them.
What is the source of these charts? Who developed them and where were they first published?
(And don't just say "Wikipedia"...)
It appears to be "The Lancashire Hollands", by Bernard Henry Holland, published in 1917. Internet Archive has it; there's and index to the pedigree charts that appear in the book. The first one is the one facing the first page of Chapter I, which is on the Hollands of Upholland.
That is where one is from. The other I just found in "A history of the family of Holland of Mobberley and Knutsford" by Edgar Swinton Holland, 1902. Unfortunately, as is often the case, the copy I found at Hathi and Internet Archive did not consider the chart worth scanning, but I could see just enough of the far right of the table to see that it matches.
The same is true for the Google Books copy, but Ancestry has a copy with the full chart, split in two at exactly the same place - the uploader got it from the Ancestry copy.
taf
Todd, I assume you're referring to the third pedigree mentioned by Paulo, "Pedigree of the Hollands of Upholland and Denton". The Hathi and IA copies were both filmed by Google - hence the mangled pedigree (SOP for Google). My access to Ancestry is via my local library, which is closed due to the pandemic [sigh] - but at least I have a picture of the pedigree and now know its source.

The first pedigree mentioned by Paulo, "Hollands of Upholland in Lancashire", is indeed in the 1917 book mentioned by P. J. Evans. That book also has an abbreviated copy of the second pedigree, "Pedigree of the Family of Holland of Conway" and notes that the original (with authorities) was compiled by Sir Thomas Erskine Holland and was published in Archaeologica Cambrensis, 3rd series, vol. 12 (1866). The pedigree in the Google copy of that volume is mangled (of course), but I think I can find a better copy...in the morning.

Thanks to both of you for your bibliographic sleuthing on this!
taf
2020-07-02 08:09:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Higgins
Post by taf
Post by taf
Post by P J Evans
Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Back in 2014, in https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/47wlQQ5ODME/fqtDQKwTCiUJ,
John Higgins said that the Hollands of Denton had no apparent connection to the Hollands of Exeter. However, Todd Farmerie recently told me that a series of charts posted in Wikipedia, apparently from the late 19th century or early 20th century, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Hollands_of_Upholland_in_Lancashire.jpg, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/A_Pedigree_of_the_Family_of_Holland_of_Conway.jpg and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Pedigree_of_the_Hollands_of_Upholland_and_Denton.jpg, would make both the Hollands of Denton and the Hollands of Conway part of the same male line as the Hollands of Exeter.
He also said that those lines may still survive. After reading John Higgins's post, I can confirm that, at the least, the Hollands of Denton, still survive. The Viscounts Knutsford are descended from them.
What is the source of these charts? Who developed them and where were they first published?
(And don't just say "Wikipedia"...)
It appears to be "The Lancashire Hollands", by Bernard Henry Holland, published in 1917. Internet Archive has it; there's and index to the pedigree charts that appear in the book. The first one is the one facing the first page of Chapter I, which is on the Hollands of Upholland.
That is where one is from. The other I just found in "A history of the family of Holland of Mobberley and Knutsford" by Edgar Swinton Holland, 1902. Unfortunately, as is often the case, the copy I found at Hathi and Internet Archive did not consider the chart worth scanning, but I could see just enough of the far right of the table to see that it matches.
The same is true for the Google Books copy, but Ancestry has a copy with the full chart, split in two at exactly the same place - the uploader got it from the Ancestry copy.
taf
Todd, I assume you're referring to the third pedigree mentioned by Paulo, "Pedigree of the Hollands of Upholland and Denton". The Hathi and IA copies were both filmed by Google - hence the mangled pedigree (SOP for Google). My access to Ancestry is via my local library, which is closed due to the pandemic [sigh] - but at least I have a picture of the pedigree and now know its source.
There is also a copy of 'History of the family of Holland of Mobberley' on FamilySearch. It has the charts.

taf
John Higgins
2020-07-02 18:25:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by John Higgins
Post by taf
Post by taf
Post by P J Evans
Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Back in 2014, in https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/47wlQQ5ODME/fqtDQKwTCiUJ,
John Higgins said that the Hollands of Denton had no apparent connection to the Hollands of Exeter. However, Todd Farmerie recently told me that a series of charts posted in Wikipedia, apparently from the late 19th century or early 20th century, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Hollands_of_Upholland_in_Lancashire.jpg, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/A_Pedigree_of_the_Family_of_Holland_of_Conway.jpg and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Pedigree_of_the_Hollands_of_Upholland_and_Denton.jpg, would make both the Hollands of Denton and the Hollands of Conway part of the same male line as the Hollands of Exeter.
He also said that those lines may still survive. After reading John Higgins's post, I can confirm that, at the least, the Hollands of Denton, still survive. The Viscounts Knutsford are descended from them.
What is the source of these charts? Who developed them and where were they first published?
(And don't just say "Wikipedia"...)
It appears to be "The Lancashire Hollands", by Bernard Henry Holland, published in 1917. Internet Archive has it; there's and index to the pedigree charts that appear in the book. The first one is the one facing the first page of Chapter I, which is on the Hollands of Upholland.
That is where one is from. The other I just found in "A history of the family of Holland of Mobberley and Knutsford" by Edgar Swinton Holland, 1902. Unfortunately, as is often the case, the copy I found at Hathi and Internet Archive did not consider the chart worth scanning, but I could see just enough of the far right of the table to see that it matches.
The same is true for the Google Books copy, but Ancestry has a copy with the full chart, split in two at exactly the same place - the uploader got it from the Ancestry copy.
taf
Todd, I assume you're referring to the third pedigree mentioned by Paulo, "Pedigree of the Hollands of Upholland and Denton". The Hathi and IA copies were both filmed by Google - hence the mangled pedigree (SOP for Google). My access to Ancestry is via my local library, which is closed due to the pandemic [sigh] - but at least I have a picture of the pedigree and now know its source.
There is also a copy of 'History of the family of Holland of Mobberley' on FamilySearch. It has the charts.
taf
Hmmm...I did check FamilySearch last night but missed this item -- too sleepy, I guess. Thanks for the reference.

The pedigree of the Hollands of Conway in Archaeologia Cambrensis is here - and can be downloaded:
https://journals.library.wales/view/2919943/2996841/97#?cv=97&m=107&h=hollORs%20of%20conway&c=0&s=0&manifest=https%3A%2F%2Fdamsssl.llgc.org.uk%2Fiiif%2F2.0%2F2919943%2Fmanifest.json&xywh=324%2C-117%2C5927%2C3627
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
2020-07-02 14:31:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Higgins
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Back in 2014, in https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/47wlQQ5ODME/fqtDQKwTCiUJ,
John Higgins said that the Hollands of Denton had no apparent connection to the Hollands of Exeter. However, Todd Farmerie recently told me that a series of charts posted in Wikipedia, apparently from the late 19th century or early 20th century, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Hollands_of_Upholland_in_Lancashire.jpg, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/A_Pedigree_of_the_Family_of_Holland_of_Conway.jpg and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Pedigree_of_the_Hollands_of_Upholland_and_Denton.jpg, would make both the Hollands of Denton and the Hollands of Conway part of the same male line as the Hollands of Exeter.
He also said that those lines may still survive. After reading John Higgins's post, I can confirm that, at the least, the Hollands of Denton, still survive. The Viscounts Knutsford are descended from them.
What is the source of these charts? Who developed them and where were they first published?
(And don't just say "Wikipedia"...)
Dear John, I didn't say the source because I didn't know it. Todd didn't know when he told me. Regardless, I thank him and P J Evans for sorting this out.
Now, the question is: Are those sources reliable or were they simply connecting those Hollands out of wishful thinking?
taf
2020-07-02 19:03:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Now, the question is: Are those sources reliable or were they simply
connecting those Hollands out of wishful thinking?
Sources such as this are inherently unreliable. That doesn't mean that they are wrong, but unless they cite specific documentation, nothing they say should be assumed true.
John Higgins
2020-07-02 20:38:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by taf
Post by Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Now, the question is: Are those sources reliable or were they simply
connecting those Hollands out of wishful thinking?
Sources such as this are inherently unreliable. That doesn't mean that they are wrong, but unless they cite specific documentation, nothing they say should be assumed true.
This article, from the Dictionary of Welsh Biography, discusses the Welsh Conway families and their possible origins. Its cited sources include a couple of sources that have been mentioned in this thread.

https://biography.wales/article/s-HOLL-AND-1584

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