Discussion:
a tale otherwise so utterly improbable
(too old to reply)
Yurui Liu
2021-01-16 15:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?

Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity.
Tony Cooper
2021-01-16 16:11:59 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 07:45:30 -0800 (PST), Yurui Liu
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity.
Doesn't bother me. It expresses that this aspect is not improbable as
the other aspects are.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Yurui Liu
2021-01-16 16:27:24 UTC
Permalink
Tony Cooper 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:12:03 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 07:45:30 -0800 (PST), Yurui Liu
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity.
Doesn't bother me. It expresses that this aspect is not improbable as
the other aspects are.
I thought the context meant that his nervous fever (and concomitant symptoms)
added to the improbability of his story.

I suspect "already" would seem a more likely word choice.
Post by Tony Cooper
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Horace LaBadie
2021-01-16 16:14:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.

One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
Yurui Liu
2021-01-16 16:32:46 UTC
Permalink
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.

Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
Horace LaBadie
2021-01-16 20:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Horace LaBadie 圚 2021幎1月17日 星期日䞊午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信䞭寫道
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
The dictionary offers "an otherwise black cat with a single white
whisker."
Stefan Ram
2021-01-16 20:13:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
The dictionary offers "an otherwise black cat with a single white
whisker."
Also found an attributive example in a dictionary:
"adv. [...] In other respects: an otherwise logical mind.".
Peter T. Daniels
2021-01-16 20:26:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked
upon it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
The dictionary offers "an otherwise black cat with a single white
whisker."
Different and ordinary sense -- you can't substitute "already" there.
Yurui Liu
2021-01-17 00:46:15 UTC
Permalink
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午4:04:58 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
The dictionary offers "an otherwise black cat with a single white
whisker."
That's a usual use of "otherwise," which signals a contrast between "white"
and "black," but no contrast is implied in Shelley's example.
CDB
2021-01-17 15:13:21 UTC
Permalink
Horace LaBadie:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein. Do
you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by the
standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought
was to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant
pursuit to be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story
that I had to tell. A being whom I myself had formed, and endued
with life, had met me at midnight among the precipices of an
inaccessible mountain. I remembered also the nervous fever with
which I had been seized just at the time that I dated my
creation, and which would give an air of delirium to a tale
otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if any other
had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked
upon it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but
"otherwise" it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise"
could work here.
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
I can't think of any. I agree with you that "otherwise" implies a
contrast that is not apparent in the narrative. As others have said,
"already" could be substituted for it, or words could be inserted:
"which would give an added air of delirium even to a tale otherwise so
utterly improbable"
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather
than "reveal" or "disclose."
Mack A. Damia
2021-01-17 16:36:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Horace LaBadie?
Post by Horace LaBadie
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein. Do
you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by the
standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought
was to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant
pursuit to be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story
that I had to tell. A being whom I myself had formed, and endued
with life, had met me at midnight among the precipices of an
inaccessible mountain. I remembered also the nervous fever with
which I had been seized just at the time that I dated my
creation, and which would give an air of delirium to a tale
otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if any other
had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked
upon it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but
"otherwise" it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise"
could work here.
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
I can't think of any. I agree with you that "otherwise" implies a
contrast that is not apparent in the narrative. As others have said,
"which would give an added air of delirium even to a tale otherwise so
utterly improbable"
He is comparing fact and fantasy. Why is this so difficult?

"It is a fact the monster lives; OTHERWISE, it could be a fantasy."

"Already" doesn't work.
Yurui Liu
2021-01-18 02:49:21 UTC
Permalink
Mack A. Damia 在 2021年1月18日 星期一上午12:36:42 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Horace LaBadie?
Post by Horace LaBadie
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein. Do
you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by the
standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought
was to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant
pursuit to be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story
that I had to tell. A being whom I myself had formed, and endued
with life, had met me at midnight among the precipices of an
inaccessible mountain. I remembered also the nervous fever with
which I had been seized just at the time that I dated my
creation, and which would give an air of delirium to a tale
otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if any other
had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked
upon it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but
"otherwise" it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise"
could work here.
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
I can't think of any. I agree with you that "otherwise" implies a
contrast that is not apparent in the narrative. As others have said,
"which would give an added air of delirium even to a tale otherwise so
utterly improbable"
He is comparing fact and fantasy. Why is this so difficult?
"It is a fact the monster lives; OTHERWISE, it could be a fantasy."
What you said above would be more likely expressed otherwise than by
Shelley's sentence:

The fact that the I saw the monster climbing on the precipices last night
adds an element of truth to the otherwise improbable tale.

"An element of truth" contrasts with "improbable," while "an air of delirium"
reinforces the improbability of the tale.
"Already" doesn't work.
Mack A. Damia
2021-01-18 03:12:52 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 17 Jan 2021 18:49:21 -0800 (PST), Yurui Liu
Mack A. Damia ? 2021?1?18? ?????12:36:42 [UTC+8] ??????
Horace LaBadie?
Post by Horace LaBadie
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein. Do
you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by the
standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought
was to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant
pursuit to be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story
that I had to tell. A being whom I myself had formed, and endued
with life, had met me at midnight among the precipices of an
inaccessible mountain. I remembered also the nervous fever with
which I had been seized just at the time that I dated my
creation, and which would give an air of delirium to a tale
otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if any other
had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked
upon it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but
"otherwise" it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise"
could work here.
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
I can't think of any. I agree with you that "otherwise" implies a
contrast that is not apparent in the narrative. As others have said,
"which would give an added air of delirium even to a tale otherwise so
utterly improbable"
He is comparing fact and fantasy. Why is this so difficult?
"It is a fact the monster lives; OTHERWISE, it could be a fantasy."
What you said above would be more likely expressed otherwise than by
The fact that the I saw the monster climbing on the precipices last night
adds an element of truth to the otherwise improbable tale.
"An element of truth" contrasts with "improbable," while "an air of delirium"
reinforces the improbability of the tale.
That he actually sees the monster climbing on the precipices (fact)
adds an element of truth to his story; otherwise, it is merely an
improbable tale (fantasy).
Bebercito
2021-01-18 04:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.
Post by Yurui Liu
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
Yurui Liu
2021-01-18 11:39:53 UTC
Permalink
Bebercito 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午12:12:07 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.
Here is one example of how delirium would paradoxically make an otherwise
improbable story possible:

John said that he had last week been taken on an alien spaceship by two men in black,
who had scrambled his brains by various experiments. His ravings and delusions
add an air of delirium to his otherwise improbable story. Perhaps we should give
him a thorough check-up.

In the example, John's delirium is meant to be a possible indication of the said experience.
The following sentence , "Perhaps we should give him a thorough check-up," acknowledges
the possibility.

On the other hand, I don't see how the proposed usage would paradoxically fit in Shelley's
sentence and plot. If Victor Frankenstein had meant to adduce his delirium or nervous fever
to support his tale of monster creation, he would have said something like , "I thought that
my father and others might believe, however remote that possibility was."

Instead, he said, "I well knew that if any other had communicated such a relation to me,
I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity." Even he himself denied the
slightest possibility the story could gain credence. He thought the story would have sounded
improbable even to himself.
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
Bebercito
2021-01-18 16:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午12:12:07 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.
Here is one example of how delirium would paradoxically make an otherwise
John said that he had last week been taken on an alien spaceship by two men in black,
who had scrambled his brains by various experiments. His ravings and delusions
add an air of delirium to his otherwise improbable story. Perhaps we should give
him a thorough check-up.
In the example, John's delirium is meant to be a possible indication of the said experience.
The following sentence , "Perhaps we should give him a thorough check-up," acknowledges
the possibility.
On the other hand, I don't see how the proposed usage would paradoxically fit in Shelley's
sentence and plot. If Victor Frankenstein had meant to adduce his delirium or nervous fever
to support his tale of monster creation, he would have said something like , "I thought that
my father and others might believe, however remote that possibility was."
Instead, he said, "I well knew that if any other had communicated such a relation to me,
I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity." Even he himself denied the
slightest possibility the story could gain credence. He thought the story would have sounded
improbable even to himself.
Don't forget this is a Gothic novel, and things aren't so clear-cut. The reference
to delirium, even though it has no actual bearing on the plot, can be made to
create an atmosphere whereby the reader is prompted to think that, like in
delirium, the utterly improbable becomes reality. Literature has many tricks
up its sleeve.
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
Yurui Liu
2021-01-18 16:40:53 UTC
Permalink
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午12:18:44 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午12:12:07 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.
Here is one example of how delirium would paradoxically make an otherwise
John said that he had last week been taken on an alien spaceship by two men in black,
who had scrambled his brains by various experiments. His ravings and delusions
add an air of delirium to his otherwise improbable story. Perhaps we should give
him a thorough check-up.
In the example, John's delirium is meant to be a possible indication of the said experience.
The following sentence , "Perhaps we should give him a thorough check-up," acknowledges
the possibility.
On the other hand, I don't see how the proposed usage would paradoxically fit in Shelley's
sentence and plot. If Victor Frankenstein had meant to adduce his delirium or nervous fever
to support his tale of monster creation, he would have said something like , "I thought that
my father and others might believe, however remote that possibility was."
Instead, he said, "I well knew that if any other had communicated such a relation to me,
I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity." Even he himself denied the
slightest possibility the story could gain credence. He thought the story would have sounded
improbable even to himself.
Don't forget this is a Gothic novel, and things aren't so clear-cut. The reference
to delirium, even though it has no actual bearing on the plot, can be made to
create an atmosphere whereby the reader is prompted to think that, like in
delirium, the utterly improbable becomes reality. Literature has many tricks
up its sleeve.
Using a word where it would detract from the coherence of the text would be
uncalled for. In keeping with the plot, normal readers only take away the message that
Frankenstein's nervous fever contributed to his reluctance to reveal his story to his family.
If the fever had added probability to his story, it would be inconsistent with the sentence
immediately following the one where the disputed word is found.
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
Bebercito
2021-01-18 17:12:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午12:18:44 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午12:12:07 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.
Here is one example of how delirium would paradoxically make an otherwise
John said that he had last week been taken on an alien spaceship by two men in black,
who had scrambled his brains by various experiments. His ravings and delusions
add an air of delirium to his otherwise improbable story. Perhaps we should give
him a thorough check-up.
In the example, John's delirium is meant to be a possible indication of the said experience.
The following sentence , "Perhaps we should give him a thorough check-up," acknowledges
the possibility.
On the other hand, I don't see how the proposed usage would paradoxically fit in Shelley's
sentence and plot. If Victor Frankenstein had meant to adduce his delirium or nervous fever
to support his tale of monster creation, he would have said something like , "I thought that
my father and others might believe, however remote that possibility was."
Instead, he said, "I well knew that if any other had communicated such a relation to me,
I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity." Even he himself denied the
slightest possibility the story could gain credence. He thought the story would have sounded
improbable even to himself.
Don't forget this is a Gothic novel, and things aren't so clear-cut. The reference
to delirium, even though it has no actual bearing on the plot, can be made to
create an atmosphere whereby the reader is prompted to think that, like in
delirium, the utterly improbable becomes reality. Literature has many tricks
up its sleeve.
Using a word where it would detract from the coherence of the text would be
uncalled for. In keeping with the plot, normal readers only take away the message that
Frankenstein's nervous fever contributed to his reluctance to reveal his story to his family.
If the fever had added probability to his story, it would be inconsistent with the sentence
immediately following the one where the disputed word is found.
Again, the inconsistency may deliberately make for a climate of confusion and
an uncanny atmosphere that are hallmarks of the literary genre. Have you
never seen e.g. fantasy movies where the scenario purposefully doesn't "add
up" towards the end to confuse the audience?
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
Yurui Liu
2021-01-18 17:26:46 UTC
Permalink
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午1:12:36 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午12:18:44 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午12:12:07 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.
Here is one example of how delirium would paradoxically make an otherwise
John said that he had last week been taken on an alien spaceship by two men in black,
who had scrambled his brains by various experiments. His ravings and delusions
add an air of delirium to his otherwise improbable story. Perhaps we should give
him a thorough check-up.
In the example, John's delirium is meant to be a possible indication of the said experience.
The following sentence , "Perhaps we should give him a thorough check-up," acknowledges
the possibility.
On the other hand, I don't see how the proposed usage would paradoxically fit in Shelley's
sentence and plot. If Victor Frankenstein had meant to adduce his delirium or nervous fever
to support his tale of monster creation, he would have said something like , "I thought that
my father and others might believe, however remote that possibility was."
Instead, he said, "I well knew that if any other had communicated such a relation to me,
I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity." Even he himself denied the
slightest possibility the story could gain credence. He thought the story would have sounded
improbable even to himself.
Don't forget this is a Gothic novel, and things aren't so clear-cut. The reference
to delirium, even though it has no actual bearing on the plot, can be made to
create an atmosphere whereby the reader is prompted to think that, like in
delirium, the utterly improbable becomes reality. Literature has many tricks
up its sleeve.
Using a word where it would detract from the coherence of the text would be
uncalled for. In keeping with the plot, normal readers only take away the message that
Frankenstein's nervous fever contributed to his reluctance to reveal his story to his family.
If the fever had added probability to his story, it would be inconsistent with the sentence
immediately following the one where the disputed word is found.
Again, the inconsistency may deliberately make for a climate of confusion and
an uncanny atmosphere that are hallmarks of the literary genre. Have you
never seen e.g. fantasy movies where the scenario purposefully doesn't "add
up" towards the end to confuse the audience?
That sort of movie ending can lend itself to multiple interpretations each of which
makes sense and is coherent. The proposed reading of Shelley's sentence, however, is
incoherent in the context.
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
Bebercito
2021-01-18 17:42:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午1:12:36 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午12:18:44 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午12:12:07 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.
Here is one example of how delirium would paradoxically make an otherwise
John said that he had last week been taken on an alien spaceship by two men in black,
who had scrambled his brains by various experiments. His ravings and delusions
add an air of delirium to his otherwise improbable story. Perhaps we should give
him a thorough check-up.
In the example, John's delirium is meant to be a possible indication of the said experience.
The following sentence , "Perhaps we should give him a thorough check-up," acknowledges
the possibility.
On the other hand, I don't see how the proposed usage would paradoxically fit in Shelley's
sentence and plot. If Victor Frankenstein had meant to adduce his delirium or nervous fever
to support his tale of monster creation, he would have said something like , "I thought that
my father and others might believe, however remote that possibility was."
Instead, he said, "I well knew that if any other had communicated such a relation to me,
I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity." Even he himself denied the
slightest possibility the story could gain credence. He thought the story would have sounded
improbable even to himself.
Don't forget this is a Gothic novel, and things aren't so clear-cut. The reference
to delirium, even though it has no actual bearing on the plot, can be made to
create an atmosphere whereby the reader is prompted to think that, like in
delirium, the utterly improbable becomes reality. Literature has many tricks
up its sleeve.
Using a word where it would detract from the coherence of the text would be
uncalled for. In keeping with the plot, normal readers only take away the message that
Frankenstein's nervous fever contributed to his reluctance to reveal his story to his family.
If the fever had added probability to his story, it would be inconsistent with the sentence
immediately following the one where the disputed word is found.
Again, the inconsistency may deliberately make for a climate of confusion and
an uncanny atmosphere that are hallmarks of the literary genre. Have you
never seen e.g. fantasy movies where the scenario purposefully doesn't "add
up" towards the end to confuse the audience?
That sort of movie ending can lend itself to multiple interpretations each of which
makes sense and is coherent.
Not always.
Post by Yurui Liu
The proposed reading of Shelley's sentence, however, is
incoherent in the context.
But inherent in that sort of novel.
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
Yurui Liu
2021-01-18 17:49:25 UTC
Permalink
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午1:42:33 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午1:12:36 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午12:18:44 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午12:12:07 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.
Here is one example of how delirium would paradoxically make an otherwise
John said that he had last week been taken on an alien spaceship by two men in black,
who had scrambled his brains by various experiments. His ravings and delusions
add an air of delirium to his otherwise improbable story. Perhaps we should give
him a thorough check-up.
In the example, John's delirium is meant to be a possible indication of the said experience.
The following sentence , "Perhaps we should give him a thorough check-up," acknowledges
the possibility.
On the other hand, I don't see how the proposed usage would paradoxically fit in Shelley's
sentence and plot. If Victor Frankenstein had meant to adduce his delirium or nervous fever
to support his tale of monster creation, he would have said something like , "I thought that
my father and others might believe, however remote that possibility was."
Instead, he said, "I well knew that if any other had communicated such a relation to me,
I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity." Even he himself denied the
slightest possibility the story could gain credence. He thought the story would have sounded
improbable even to himself.
Don't forget this is a Gothic novel, and things aren't so clear-cut. The reference
to delirium, even though it has no actual bearing on the plot, can be made to
create an atmosphere whereby the reader is prompted to think that, like in
delirium, the utterly improbable becomes reality. Literature has many tricks
up its sleeve.
Using a word where it would detract from the coherence of the text would be
uncalled for. In keeping with the plot, normal readers only take away the message that
Frankenstein's nervous fever contributed to his reluctance to reveal his story to his family.
If the fever had added probability to his story, it would be inconsistent with the sentence
immediately following the one where the disputed word is found.
Again, the inconsistency may deliberately make for a climate of confusion and
an uncanny atmosphere that are hallmarks of the literary genre. Have you
never seen e.g. fantasy movies where the scenario purposefully doesn't "add
up" towards the end to confuse the audience?
That sort of movie ending can lend itself to multiple interpretations each of which
makes sense and is coherent.
Not always.
Could you describe such a movie ending?
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
The proposed reading of Shelley's sentence, however, is
incoherent in the context.
But inherent in that sort of novel.
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
Bebercito
2021-01-18 19:05:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午1:42:33 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午1:12:36 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午12:18:44 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午12:12:07 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.
Here is one example of how delirium would paradoxically make an otherwise
John said that he had last week been taken on an alien spaceship by two men in black,
who had scrambled his brains by various experiments. His ravings and delusions
add an air of delirium to his otherwise improbable story. Perhaps we should give
him a thorough check-up.
In the example, John's delirium is meant to be a possible indication of the said experience.
The following sentence , "Perhaps we should give him a thorough check-up," acknowledges
the possibility.
On the other hand, I don't see how the proposed usage would paradoxically fit in Shelley's
sentence and plot. If Victor Frankenstein had meant to adduce his delirium or nervous fever
to support his tale of monster creation, he would have said something like , "I thought that
my father and others might believe, however remote that possibility was."
Instead, he said, "I well knew that if any other had communicated such a relation to me,
I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity." Even he himself denied the
slightest possibility the story could gain credence. He thought the story would have sounded
improbable even to himself.
Don't forget this is a Gothic novel, and things aren't so clear-cut. The reference
to delirium, even though it has no actual bearing on the plot, can be made to
create an atmosphere whereby the reader is prompted to think that, like in
delirium, the utterly improbable becomes reality. Literature has many tricks
up its sleeve.
Using a word where it would detract from the coherence of the text would be
uncalled for. In keeping with the plot, normal readers only take away the message that
Frankenstein's nervous fever contributed to his reluctance to reveal his story to his family.
If the fever had added probability to his story, it would be inconsistent with the sentence
immediately following the one where the disputed word is found.
Again, the inconsistency may deliberately make for a climate of confusion and
an uncanny atmosphere that are hallmarks of the literary genre. Have you
never seen e.g. fantasy movies where the scenario purposefully doesn't "add
up" towards the end to confuse the audience?
That sort of movie ending can lend itself to multiple interpretations each of which
makes sense and is coherent.
Not always.
Could you describe such a movie ending?
Anyone who's seen Kubrick's /The Shining/, for instance, will know what
I'm talking about. The final shot on a real photograph of an event that the
plot, all along, suggests had only existed in the mind of one of the characters
(a schizophrenic), has no possible explanations and only seems to be added
to (uselessly, IMO) muddy the waters.
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
The proposed reading of Shelley's sentence, however, is
incoherent in the context.
But inherent in that sort of novel.
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
Mack A. Damia
2021-01-18 20:51:21 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 11:05:27 -0800 (PST), Bebercito
Post by Bebercito
Bebercito ? 2021?1?19? ?????1:42:33 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Bebercito
Bebercito ? 2021?1?19? ?????1:12:36 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Bebercito
Bebercito ? 2021?1?19? ?????12:18:44 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Bebercito
Bebercito ? 2021?1?18? ?????12:12:07 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Bebercito
Horace LaBadie ? 2021?1?17? ?????12:14:43 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.
Here is one example of how delirium would paradoxically make an otherwise
John said that he had last week been taken on an alien spaceship by two men in black,
who had scrambled his brains by various experiments. His ravings and delusions
add an air of delirium to his otherwise improbable story. Perhaps we should give
him a thorough check-up.
In the example, John's delirium is meant to be a possible indication of the said experience.
The following sentence , "Perhaps we should give him a thorough check-up," acknowledges
the possibility.
On the other hand, I don't see how the proposed usage would paradoxically fit in Shelley's
sentence and plot. If Victor Frankenstein had meant to adduce his delirium or nervous fever
to support his tale of monster creation, he would have said something like , "I thought that
my father and others might believe, however remote that possibility was."
Instead, he said, "I well knew that if any other had communicated such a relation to me,
I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity." Even he himself denied the
slightest possibility the story could gain credence. He thought the story would have sounded
improbable even to himself.
Don't forget this is a Gothic novel, and things aren't so clear-cut. The reference
to delirium, even though it has no actual bearing on the plot, can be made to
create an atmosphere whereby the reader is prompted to think that, like in
delirium, the utterly improbable becomes reality. Literature has many tricks
up its sleeve.
Using a word where it would detract from the coherence of the text would be
uncalled for. In keeping with the plot, normal readers only take away the message that
Frankenstein's nervous fever contributed to his reluctance to reveal his story to his family.
If the fever had added probability to his story, it would be inconsistent with the sentence
immediately following the one where the disputed word is found.
Again, the inconsistency may deliberately make for a climate of confusion and
an uncanny atmosphere that are hallmarks of the literary genre. Have you
never seen e.g. fantasy movies where the scenario purposefully doesn't "add
up" towards the end to confuse the audience?
That sort of movie ending can lend itself to multiple interpretations each of which
makes sense and is coherent.
Not always.
Could you describe such a movie ending?
Anyone who's seen Kubrick's /The Shining/, for instance, will know what
I'm talking about. The final shot on a real photograph of an event that the
plot, all along, suggests had only existed in the mind of one of the characters
(a schizophrenic), has no possible explanations and only seems to be added
to (uselessly, IMO) muddy the waters.
More like Jack is a reincarnation of the 1921 party guest. Another
theory is that the hotel "absorbed" Jack's soul.
Bebercito
2021-01-19 01:13:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 11:05:27 -0800 (PST), Bebercito
Bebercito ? 2021?1?19? ?????1:42:33 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Bebercito
Bebercito ? 2021?1?19? ?????1:12:36 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Bebercito
Bebercito ? 2021?1?19? ?????12:18:44 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Bebercito
Bebercito ? 2021?1?18? ?????12:12:07 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Bebercito
Horace LaBadie ? 2021?1?17? ?????12:14:43 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.
Here is one example of how delirium would paradoxically make an otherwise
John said that he had last week been taken on an alien spaceship by two men in black,
who had scrambled his brains by various experiments. His ravings and delusions
add an air of delirium to his otherwise improbable story. Perhaps we should give
him a thorough check-up.
In the example, John's delirium is meant to be a possible indication of the said experience.
The following sentence , "Perhaps we should give him a thorough check-up," acknowledges
the possibility.
On the other hand, I don't see how the proposed usage would paradoxically fit in Shelley's
sentence and plot. If Victor Frankenstein had meant to adduce his delirium or nervous fever
to support his tale of monster creation, he would have said something like , "I thought that
my father and others might believe, however remote that possibility was."
Instead, he said, "I well knew that if any other had communicated such a relation to me,
I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity." Even he himself denied the
slightest possibility the story could gain credence. He thought the story would have sounded
improbable even to himself.
Don't forget this is a Gothic novel, and things aren't so clear-cut. The reference
to delirium, even though it has no actual bearing on the plot, can be made to
create an atmosphere whereby the reader is prompted to think that, like in
delirium, the utterly improbable becomes reality. Literature has many tricks
up its sleeve.
Using a word where it would detract from the coherence of the text would be
uncalled for. In keeping with the plot, normal readers only take away the message that
Frankenstein's nervous fever contributed to his reluctance to reveal his story to his family.
If the fever had added probability to his story, it would be inconsistent with the sentence
immediately following the one where the disputed word is found.
Again, the inconsistency may deliberately make for a climate of confusion and
an uncanny atmosphere that are hallmarks of the literary genre. Have you
never seen e.g. fantasy movies where the scenario purposefully doesn't "add
up" towards the end to confuse the audience?
That sort of movie ending can lend itself to multiple interpretations each of which
makes sense and is coherent.
Not always.
Could you describe such a movie ending?
Anyone who's seen Kubrick's /The Shining/, for instance, will know what
I'm talking about. The final shot on a real photograph of an event that the
plot, all along, suggests had only existed in the mind of one of the characters
(a schizophrenic), has no possible explanations and only seems to be added
to (uselessly, IMO) muddy the waters.
More like Jack is a reincarnation of the 1921 party guest. Another
theory is that the hotel "absorbed" Jack's soul.
Yes possibly, but my recollection (from 1980) is neither I nor anybody I knew
was able to fit the end into the "internal logic" of the film.
Mack A. Damia
2021-01-19 02:15:00 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 17:13:49 -0800 (PST), Bebercito
Post by Bebercito
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 11:05:27 -0800 (PST), Bebercito
Bebercito ? 2021?1?19? ?????1:42:33 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Bebercito
Bebercito ? 2021?1?19? ?????1:12:36 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Bebercito
Bebercito ? 2021?1?19? ?????12:18:44 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Bebercito
Bebercito ? 2021?1?18? ?????12:12:07 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Bebercito
Horace LaBadie ? 2021?1?17? ?????12:14:43 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.
Here is one example of how delirium would paradoxically make an otherwise
John said that he had last week been taken on an alien spaceship by two men in black,
who had scrambled his brains by various experiments. His ravings and delusions
add an air of delirium to his otherwise improbable story. Perhaps we should give
him a thorough check-up.
In the example, John's delirium is meant to be a possible indication of the said experience.
The following sentence , "Perhaps we should give him a thorough check-up," acknowledges
the possibility.
On the other hand, I don't see how the proposed usage would paradoxically fit in Shelley's
sentence and plot. If Victor Frankenstein had meant to adduce his delirium or nervous fever
to support his tale of monster creation, he would have said something like , "I thought that
my father and others might believe, however remote that possibility was."
Instead, he said, "I well knew that if any other had communicated such a relation to me,
I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity." Even he himself denied the
slightest possibility the story could gain credence. He thought the story would have sounded
improbable even to himself.
Don't forget this is a Gothic novel, and things aren't so clear-cut. The reference
to delirium, even though it has no actual bearing on the plot, can be made to
create an atmosphere whereby the reader is prompted to think that, like in
delirium, the utterly improbable becomes reality. Literature has many tricks
up its sleeve.
Using a word where it would detract from the coherence of the text would be
uncalled for. In keeping with the plot, normal readers only take away the message that
Frankenstein's nervous fever contributed to his reluctance to reveal his story to his family.
If the fever had added probability to his story, it would be inconsistent with the sentence
immediately following the one where the disputed word is found.
Again, the inconsistency may deliberately make for a climate of confusion and
an uncanny atmosphere that are hallmarks of the literary genre. Have you
never seen e.g. fantasy movies where the scenario purposefully doesn't "add
up" towards the end to confuse the audience?
That sort of movie ending can lend itself to multiple interpretations each of which
makes sense and is coherent.
Not always.
Could you describe such a movie ending?
Anyone who's seen Kubrick's /The Shining/, for instance, will know what
I'm talking about. The final shot on a real photograph of an event that the
plot, all along, suggests had only existed in the mind of one of the characters
(a schizophrenic), has no possible explanations and only seems to be added
to (uselessly, IMO) muddy the waters.
More like Jack is a reincarnation of the 1921 party guest. Another
theory is that the hotel "absorbed" Jack's soul.
Yes possibly, but my recollection (from 1980) is neither I nor anybody I knew
was able to fit the end into the "internal logic" of the film.
Isn't the fact that the hotel is haunted enough to fit anything
supernatural to happen? That to me is the "internal logic".
Yurui Liu
2021-01-19 00:46:41 UTC
Permalink
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午3:05:29 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午1:42:33 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午1:12:36 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午12:18:44 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午12:12:07 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.
Here is one example of how delirium would paradoxically make an otherwise
John said that he had last week been taken on an alien spaceship by two men in black,
who had scrambled his brains by various experiments. His ravings and delusions
add an air of delirium to his otherwise improbable story. Perhaps we should give
him a thorough check-up.
In the example, John's delirium is meant to be a possible indication of the said experience.
The following sentence , "Perhaps we should give him a thorough check-up," acknowledges
the possibility.
On the other hand, I don't see how the proposed usage would paradoxically fit in Shelley's
sentence and plot. If Victor Frankenstein had meant to adduce his delirium or nervous fever
to support his tale of monster creation, he would have said something like , "I thought that
my father and others might believe, however remote that possibility was."
Instead, he said, "I well knew that if any other had communicated such a relation to me,
I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity." Even he himself denied the
slightest possibility the story could gain credence. He thought the story would have sounded
improbable even to himself.
Don't forget this is a Gothic novel, and things aren't so clear-cut. The reference
to delirium, even though it has no actual bearing on the plot, can be made to
create an atmosphere whereby the reader is prompted to think that, like in
delirium, the utterly improbable becomes reality. Literature has many tricks
up its sleeve.
Using a word where it would detract from the coherence of the text would be
uncalled for. In keeping with the plot, normal readers only take away the message that
Frankenstein's nervous fever contributed to his reluctance to reveal his story to his family.
If the fever had added probability to his story, it would be inconsistent with the sentence
immediately following the one where the disputed word is found.
Again, the inconsistency may deliberately make for a climate of confusion and
an uncanny atmosphere that are hallmarks of the literary genre. Have you
never seen e.g. fantasy movies where the scenario purposefully doesn't "add
up" towards the end to confuse the audience?
That sort of movie ending can lend itself to multiple interpretations each of which
makes sense and is coherent.
Not always.
Could you describe such a movie ending?
Anyone who's seen Kubrick's /The Shining/, for instance, will know what
I'm talking about. The final shot on a real photograph of an event that the
plot, all along, suggests had only existed in the mind of one of the characters
(a schizophrenic), has no possible explanations and only seems to be added
to (uselessly, IMO) muddy the waters.
The fact that more than one character in the novel displays
unusual wording or sentence structure indicates that the incoherence
resulting from the proposed understanding of the disputed word could not be
attributed to his insanity, unless other characters are considered insane too.
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
The proposed reading of Shelley's sentence, however, is
incoherent in the context.
But inherent in that sort of novel.
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
Bebercito
2021-01-19 01:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午3:05:29 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午1:42:33 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午1:12:36 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午12:18:44 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午12:12:07 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.
Here is one example of how delirium would paradoxically make an otherwise
John said that he had last week been taken on an alien spaceship by two men in black,
who had scrambled his brains by various experiments. His ravings and delusions
add an air of delirium to his otherwise improbable story. Perhaps we should give
him a thorough check-up.
In the example, John's delirium is meant to be a possible indication of the said experience.
The following sentence , "Perhaps we should give him a thorough check-up," acknowledges
the possibility.
On the other hand, I don't see how the proposed usage would paradoxically fit in Shelley's
sentence and plot. If Victor Frankenstein had meant to adduce his delirium or nervous fever
to support his tale of monster creation, he would have said something like , "I thought that
my father and others might believe, however remote that possibility was."
Instead, he said, "I well knew that if any other had communicated such a relation to me,
I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity." Even he himself denied the
slightest possibility the story could gain credence. He thought the story would have sounded
improbable even to himself.
Don't forget this is a Gothic novel, and things aren't so clear-cut. The reference
to delirium, even though it has no actual bearing on the plot, can be made to
create an atmosphere whereby the reader is prompted to think that, like in
delirium, the utterly improbable becomes reality. Literature has many tricks
up its sleeve.
Using a word where it would detract from the coherence of the text would be
uncalled for. In keeping with the plot, normal readers only take away the message that
Frankenstein's nervous fever contributed to his reluctance to reveal his story to his family.
If the fever had added probability to his story, it would be inconsistent with the sentence
immediately following the one where the disputed word is found.
Again, the inconsistency may deliberately make for a climate of confusion and
an uncanny atmosphere that are hallmarks of the literary genre. Have you
never seen e.g. fantasy movies where the scenario purposefully doesn't "add
up" towards the end to confuse the audience?
That sort of movie ending can lend itself to multiple interpretations each of which
makes sense and is coherent.
Not always.
Could you describe such a movie ending?
Anyone who's seen Kubrick's /The Shining/, for instance, will know what
I'm talking about. The final shot on a real photograph of an event that the
plot, all along, suggests had only existed in the mind of one of the characters
(a schizophrenic), has no possible explanations and only seems to be added
to (uselessly, IMO) muddy the waters.
The fact that more than one character in the novel displays
unusual wording or sentence structure indicates that the incoherence
resulting from the proposed understanding of the disputed word could not be
attributed to his insanity, unless other characters are considered insane too.
Are you talking about /The Shining/?
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
The proposed reading of Shelley's sentence, however, is
incoherent in the context.
But inherent in that sort of novel.
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
Yurui Liu
2021-01-19 01:22:17 UTC
Permalink
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午9:15:33 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午3:05:29 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午1:42:33 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午1:12:36 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午12:18:44 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午12:12:07 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.
Here is one example of how delirium would paradoxically make an otherwise
John said that he had last week been taken on an alien spaceship by two men in black,
who had scrambled his brains by various experiments. His ravings and delusions
add an air of delirium to his otherwise improbable story. Perhaps we should give
him a thorough check-up.
In the example, John's delirium is meant to be a possible indication of the said experience.
The following sentence , "Perhaps we should give him a thorough check-up," acknowledges
the possibility.
On the other hand, I don't see how the proposed usage would paradoxically fit in Shelley's
sentence and plot. If Victor Frankenstein had meant to adduce his delirium or nervous fever
to support his tale of monster creation, he would have said something like , "I thought that
my father and others might believe, however remote that possibility was."
Instead, he said, "I well knew that if any other had communicated such a relation to me,
I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity." Even he himself denied the
slightest possibility the story could gain credence. He thought the story would have sounded
improbable even to himself.
Don't forget this is a Gothic novel, and things aren't so clear-cut. The reference
to delirium, even though it has no actual bearing on the plot, can be made to
create an atmosphere whereby the reader is prompted to think that, like in
delirium, the utterly improbable becomes reality. Literature has many tricks
up its sleeve.
Using a word where it would detract from the coherence of the text would be
uncalled for. In keeping with the plot, normal readers only take away the message that
Frankenstein's nervous fever contributed to his reluctance to reveal his story to his family.
If the fever had added probability to his story, it would be inconsistent with the sentence
immediately following the one where the disputed word is found.
Again, the inconsistency may deliberately make for a climate of confusion and
an uncanny atmosphere that are hallmarks of the literary genre. Have you
never seen e.g. fantasy movies where the scenario purposefully doesn't "add
up" towards the end to confuse the audience?
That sort of movie ending can lend itself to multiple interpretations each of which
makes sense and is coherent.
Not always.
Could you describe such a movie ending?
Anyone who's seen Kubrick's /The Shining/, for instance, will know what
I'm talking about. The final shot on a real photograph of an event that the
plot, all along, suggests had only existed in the mind of one of the characters
(a schizophrenic), has no possible explanations and only seems to be added
to (uselessly, IMO) muddy the waters.
The fact that more than one character in the novel displays
unusual wording or sentence structure indicates that the incoherence
resulting from the proposed understanding of the disputed word could not be
attributed to his insanity, unless other characters are considered insane too.
Are you talking about /The Shining/?
No, I am talking about Frankenstein.
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
The proposed reading of Shelley's sentence, however, is
incoherent in the context.
But inherent in that sort of novel.
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-01-19 10:43:10 UTC
Permalink
Bebercito 圚 2021幎1月19日 星期
二䞊午3:05:29 [UTC+8] 的信䞭寫道
Bebercito 圚 2021幎1月19日 星æ
œŸäºŒäžŠåˆ1:42:33 [UTC+8] 的信䞭寫道
Bebercito 圚 2021幎1月19日 星
期二䞊午1:12:36 [UTC+8] 的信䞭寫道
Bebercito 圚 2021幎1月19日 æ˜
ŸæœŸäºŒäžŠåˆ12:18:44 [UTC+8] 的信䞭寫道
Bebercito 圚 2021幎1月18日
星期䞀䞋午12:12:07 [UTC+8] 的信䞭寫道
Le samedi 16 janvier 2021 à 17:32:48 UTC+1, liuyur
Horace LaBadie 圚 2021幎1月17æ
—¥ 星期日䞊午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信䞭寫道
In article
,
[]
Are you talking about /The Shining/?
How about trimming a bit?
[]
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Lewis
2021-01-19 01:42:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bebercito
Anyone who's seen Kubrick's /The Shining/, for instance, will know what
I'm talking about. The final shot on a real photograph of an event that the
plot, all along, suggests had only existed in the mind of one of the characters
(a schizophrenic), has no possible explanations and only seems to be added
to (uselessly, IMO) muddy the waters.
It is a way of saying that the hotel itself had agency in the events.
--
Stupid men are often capable of things the clever would not dare to
contemplate... --Feet of Clay
Yurui Liu
2021-01-18 17:11:46 UTC
Permalink
Bebercito 在 2021年1月19日 星期二上午12:18:44 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Bebercito 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午12:12:07 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Horace LaBadie 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午12:14:43 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I have no problem with "already," but I don't know how "otherwise" could
work here.
It could mean that, had it not been for the fever that had seized the narrator,
the tale would seem utterly improbable, but that, paradoxically, the tale makes
sense given his state of delirium. The phrasing sounds a bit odd but could
be deliberately ironic. With that interpretation, "otherwise" does introduce
some contrast.
Here is one example of how delirium would paradoxically make an otherwise
John said that he had last week been taken on an alien spaceship by two men in black,
who had scrambled his brains by various experiments. His ravings and delusions
add an air of delirium to his otherwise improbable story. Perhaps we should give
him a thorough check-up.
In the example, John's delirium is meant to be a possible indication of the said experience.
The following sentence , "Perhaps we should give him a thorough check-up," acknowledges
the possibility.
On the other hand, I don't see how the proposed usage would paradoxically fit in Shelley's
sentence and plot. If Victor Frankenstein had meant to adduce his delirium or nervous fever
to support his tale of monster creation, he would have said something like , "I thought that
my father and others might believe, however remote that possibility was."
Instead, he said, "I well knew that if any other had communicated such a relation to me,
I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity." Even he himself denied the
slightest possibility the story could gain credence. He thought the story would have sounded
improbable even to himself.
Don't forget this is a Gothic novel, and things aren't so clear-cut. The reference
to delirium, even though it has no actual bearing on the plot, can be made to
create an atmosphere whereby the reader is prompted to think that, like in
delirium, the utterly improbable becomes reality. Literature has many tricks
up its sleeve.
The delirium is already real in the plot; there's no reason to prompt the reader
to think so by undermining the coherence of the text.
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Bebercito
Post by Yurui Liu
Any comparable examples from contemporary sources?
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
Lewis
2021-01-17 20:17:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I find it a bit odd to contrast "an air of delirium" with "utterly
improbable": but then I find the writing in Frankenstein to be stilted
and poor and I have quite a low opinion of it.

I don't think you’d find this sort of sloppiness in Austen.
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
The meaning "to divulge a secret" did exist, but is marked as archaic
and I think that meaning being archaic predates the authorship of this
novel.
--
If we get through this alive I'll meet you next week same place same
time
Yurui Liu
2021-01-18 02:57:55 UTC
Permalink
Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一上午4:17:52 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Lewis
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I find it a bit odd to contrast "an air of delirium" with "utterly
improbable": but then I find the writing in Frankenstein to be stilted
and poor and I have quite a low opinion of it.
Maybe "otherwise" was used literally as "in other ways" without implying a contrast there.
Is the following sentence okay?

Apart from the delicious food, the restaurant is also excellent in other ways.
Post by Lewis
I don't think you’d find this sort of sloppiness in Austen.
Post by Horace LaBadie
One would expect that you would ask about using "discover" rather than
"reveal" or "disclose."
The meaning "to divulge a secret" did exist, but is marked as archaic
and I think that meaning being archaic predates the authorship of this
novel.
--
If we get through this alive I'll meet you next week same place same
time
Jerry Friedman
2021-01-18 03:24:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一上午4:17:52 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Lewis
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I find it a bit odd to contrast "an air of delirium" with "utterly
improbable": but then I find the writing in Frankenstein to be stilted
and poor and I have quite a low opinion of it.
Maybe "otherwise" was used literally as "in other ways" without implying a contrast there.
Yes, I think that's why it seems strange to us now.
Post by Yurui Liu
Is the following sentence okay?
Apart from the delicious food, the restaurant is also excellent in other ways.
...

Yes, though it might be better style without the "also". I'd write "In addition to"
rather than "Apart from".
--
Jerry Friedman
Yurui Liu
2021-01-18 03:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Jerry Friedman 在 2021年1月18日 星期一上午11:24:45 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一上午4:17:52 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Lewis
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I find it a bit odd to contrast "an air of delirium" with "utterly
improbable": but then I find the writing in Frankenstein to be stilted
and poor and I have quite a low opinion of it.
Maybe "otherwise" was used literally as "in other ways" without implying a contrast there.
Yes, I think that's why it seems strange to us now.
Someone here could search for 19-century examples of "an otherwise + adjective"
or "his/her/their/the/ otherwise + adjective" on GoogleBooks to see if using this
sequence without a contrast was common at that time.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Is the following sentence okay?
Apart from the delicious food, the restaurant is also excellent in other ways.
...
Yes, though it might be better style without the "also". I'd write "In addition to"
rather than "Apart from".
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2021-01-18 15:13:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Jerry Friedman 在 2021年1月18日 星期一上午11:24:45 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一上午4:17:52 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Lewis
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I find it a bit odd to contrast "an air of delirium" with "utterly
improbable": but then I find the writing in Frankenstein to be stilted
and poor and I have quite a low opinion of it.
Maybe "otherwise" was used literally as "in other ways" without implying a contrast there.
Yes, I think that's why it seems strange to us now.
Someone here could search for 19-century examples of "an otherwise + adjective"
or "his/her/their/the/ otherwise + adjective" on GoogleBooks to see if using this
sequence without a contrast was common at that time.
...

Is there some reason that you don't do it?
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2021-01-19 04:54:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Someone here could search for 19-century examples of "an otherwise + adjective"
or "his/her/their/the/ otherwise + adjective" on GoogleBooks to see if using this
sequence without a contrast was common at that time.
...
Is there some reason that you don't do it?
That takes me back to the days when AUE was infested with the "please do
my homework" crowd.

That, in turn, has brought to mind what was possibly my best
contribution to this newsgroup. Anyone not interested in going back in
time can stop reading here.

========== reproduction of old posting ============

Subject: (alt.usage.english) Re: The Iliad - Help!
From: ***@fourier.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Post by Jerry Friedman
I am currently studying Homer's The Iliad, and I find it somewhat hard
to understand. Could someone please give me some ideas on the
following topic:=20
The belief in Arete is the driving force of Achilles. How does Homer
present this belief in the character of Achilles? What is Homer's
attitude toward arete in Book XXIV and how is it shown?
The key to understanding this question is, of course, an
appreciation of the full meaning of "arete". This is not
completely obvious, but if you check some dictionaries
you'll find that "arete" is a French word meaning "fish bone".
(The ancient Greeks were great travellers, so it's not
surprising to discover that Homer was fluent in French.)

In one of the early books, the three witches - who represent
Poverty, Chastity, and Obedience - place a curse on
Achilles. Some commentators have mistakenly surmised
that this was a podiatric curse, but a deeper reading shows
that the curse is the ultimate cause of the fish bone
stuck in Achilles' throat. In the longer term this "arete"
has a major influence on all of Achilles' actions.

An apparently unrelated incident is, at least for me, the
key to understanding the underlying tensions in this story.
What is the significance of the little dog who wanders in
while Poirot is cleaning the Augean stables? The dog is
innocent of any wrong-doing, and certainly does not deserve
the rebuke "Out, out, damned Spot". What this incident
portrays is the strength of the frustration of someone
forced to work at the south end of a horse, and this is
directly parallel to the frustration felt by someone forced
to wander the world with a fish bone stuck in his
throat. Both of these are intended to symbolise the
frustration felt by people who are asked to do someone
else's work for them.

If you use any of this material, by the way, it would
be appropriate to include a citation of the source.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-01-19 10:40:55 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 04:54:01 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Someone here could search for 19-century examples of "an otherwise +
adjective" or "his/her/their/the/ otherwise + adjective" on
GoogleBooks to see if using this sequence without a contrast was
common at that time.
...
Is there some reason that you don't do it?
That takes me back to the days when AUE was infested with the "please
do my homework" crowd.
That, in turn, has brought to mind what was possibly my best
contribution to this newsgroup. Anyone not interested in going back in
time can stop reading here.
========== reproduction of old posting ============
Subject: (alt.usage.english) Re: The Iliad - Help!
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Post by Jerry Friedman
I am currently studying Homer's The Iliad, and I find it somewhat
hard to understand. Could someone please give me some ideas on the
following topic:=20
The belief in Arete is the driving force of Achilles. How does Homer
present this belief in the character of Achilles? What is Homer's
attitude toward arete in Book XXIV and how is it shown?
The key to understanding this question is, of course, an
appreciation of the full meaning of "arete". This is not
completely obvious, but if you check some dictionaries
you'll find that "arete" is a French word meaning "fish bone".
(The ancient Greeks were great travellers, so it's not
surprising to discover that Homer was fluent in French.)
In one of the early books, the three witches - who represent
Poverty, Chastity, and Obedience - place a curse on
Achilles. Some commentators have mistakenly surmised
that this was a podiatric curse, but a deeper reading shows
that the curse is the ultimate cause of the fish bone
stuck in Achilles' throat. In the longer term this "arete"
has a major influence on all of Achilles' actions.
An apparently unrelated incident is, at least for me, the
key to understanding the underlying tensions in this story.
What is the significance of the little dog who wanders in
while Poirot is cleaning the Augean stables? The dog is
innocent of any wrong-doing, and certainly does not deserve
the rebuke "Out, out, damned Spot". What this incident
portrays is the strength of the frustration of someone
forced to work at the south end of a horse, and this is
directly parallel to the frustration felt by someone forced
to wander the world with a fish bone stuck in his
throat. Both of these are intended to symbolise the
frustration felt by people who are asked to do someone
else's work for them.
If you use any of this material, by the way, it would
be appropriate to include a citation of the source.
I've seen through you!, this is all nonsense; you'd never find Poirot
cleaning out stables.

Anyway ar[e^]tes are found in high glaciated places:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ar%C3%AAte
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Moylan
2021-01-19 12:12:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I've seen through you!, this is all nonsense; you'd never find Poirot
cleaning out stables.
You haven't heard of the twelve labours of Hercule?

A very vague memory is trying to tell me that Agatha Christie even wrote
a book with that title.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-01-19 12:18:35 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 12:12:34 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I've seen through you!, this is all nonsense; you'd never find Poirot
cleaning out stables.
You haven't heard of the twelve labours of Hercule?
a book with that title.
Indeed. I've also read a lot of Harley Quin (1) stories; a more mystical
version of Poirot.

(1)It was a collection, so probably all of them.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Quinn C
2021-01-19 17:18:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 12:12:34 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I've seen through you!, this is all nonsense; you'd never find Poirot
cleaning out stables.
You haven't heard of the twelve labours of Hercule?
A very vague memory is trying to tell me that Agatha Christie even
a book with that title.
Indeed. I've also read a lot of Harley Quin (1) stories; a more mystical
version of Poirot.
(1)It was a collection, so probably all of them.
If, on the other hand, you claimed to have read all the Harlequin
novels, that would be quite a feat. About 5000 of them?

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Harlequin_Romance_novels>
--
I'll call you the next time I pass through your star system.
-- Commander William T. Riker
J. J. Lodder
2021-01-19 12:33:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I've seen through you!, this is all nonsense; you'd never find Poirot
cleaning out stables.
You haven't heard of the twelve labours of Hercule?
a book with that title.
Yes, 'The Labours of Hercules'.
It is a collection, with twelve short stories,
in which Hercule does them all,

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-01-19 12:56:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I've seen through you!, this is all nonsense; you'd never find Poirot
cleaning out stables.
You haven't heard of the twelve labours of Hercule?
a book with that title.
Yes, 'The Labours of Hercules'.
It is a collection, with twelve short stories,
in which Hercule does them all,
I've never come across a real person called Hercule, but I suppose they exist.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
J. J. Lodder
2021-01-19 13:19:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I've seen through you!, this is all nonsense; you'd never find Poirot
cleaning out stables.
You haven't heard of the twelve labours of Hercule?
a book with that title.
Yes, 'The Labours of Hercules'.
It is a collection, with twelve short stories,
in which Hercule does them all,
I've never come across a real person called Hercule, but I suppose they exist.
(Looks) There is a Hercule Dupont on Facebook,
so there must be more of them,

Jan
Lewis
2021-01-19 15:42:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I've seen through you!, this is all nonsense; you'd never find Poirot
cleaning out stables.
You haven't heard of the twelve labours of Hercule?
a book with that title.
Yes, 'The Labours of Hercules'.
It is a collection, with twelve short stories,
in which Hercule does them all,
I've never come across a real person called Hercule, but I suppose they exist.
Perhaps. There are none listed on Wikipedia, but many named Hercules.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercule>
--
There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand
binary and those who don't.
RH Draney
2021-01-20 03:12:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've never come across a real person called Hercule, but I suppose they exist.
Perhaps. There are none listed on Wikipedia, but many named Hercules.
Elton John said he meant to use Hercules as a middle name if decided he
needed one...this would have been around 1972-74...as far as I know he
never got round to adding it....r
Peter Moylan
2021-01-20 00:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I've seen through you!, this is all nonsense; you'd never find Poirot
cleaning out stables.
You haven't heard of the twelve labours of Hercule?
a book with that title.
Yes, 'The Labours of Hercules'.
It is a collection, with twelve short stories,
in which Hercule does them all,
I've never come across a real person called Hercule, but I suppose they exist.
I've never met anyone who made a hobby of growing oversized squash.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW
Mark Brader
2021-01-20 03:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've never come across a real person called Hercule, but I suppose they exist.
Just for fun I googled on

"hercule" -poirot

There were no hits on the first two pages of 10 that appeared to be real
names of real people, but on the third and fourth page I found:

Hercule Kalonji
Col. Lucien Hercule Barré (1879-1944)
Hercule Florence

Other types of hits included one or more each of: pseudonym, place name,
business or brand name, fictional character, donkey.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "If all is not lost,
***@vex.net then where the heck is it?"

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-01-18 06:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一上午4:17:52 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.> > >> Do you think the
following use of "otherwise" is natural by> > >> the standards of
current English?> > >>> > >> Day dawned; and I directed my steps
towards the town. The gates> > >> were open; and I hastened to my
father's house. My first thought was> > >> to discover what I knew of
the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to> > >> be made. But I paused
when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.> > >> A being whom I
myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me> > >> at midnight
among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I> > >> remembered
also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just> > >> at the
time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of> > >>
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that
if> > >> any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should
have looked upon> > >> it as the ravings of insanity.> >> > > Today one
might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"> > > it is
fine.> > I find it a bit odd to contrast "an air of delirium" with
"utterly> > improbable": but then I find the writing in Frankenstein to
be stilted> > and poor and I have quite a low opinion of it.
Maybe "otherwise" was used literally as "in other ways" without
implying a contrast there.
Yes, I think that's why it seems strange to us now.
Post by Yurui Liu
Is the following sentence okay?>> Apart from the delicious food, the
restaurant is also excellent in other ways.
...
Yes, though it might be better style without the "also". I'd write "In addition to"
rather than "Apart from".
Yes. "Apart from" implies a contrast, but there is no contrast here.
It's like using "but" when you mean "and".
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Lewis
2021-01-18 07:49:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一上午4:17:52 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Lewis
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I find it a bit odd to contrast "an air of delirium" with "utterly
improbable": but then I find the writing in Frankenstein to be stilted
and poor and I have quite a low opinion of it.
Maybe "otherwise" was used literally as "in other ways" without implying a contrast there.
Is the following sentence okay?
The point is, do not use a 200 tear old book to learn how to construct a
modern English sentence. And especially do not use THIS 200 year old
book.
Post by Yurui Liu
Apart from the delicious food, the restaurant is also excellent in other ways.
I would not use apart, I don't think as that implies a criticism; I
would use "In addition to" and drop the 'also'.
--
Nobody puts one over on Fred C. Dobbs.
Yurui Liu
2021-01-18 09:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午3:49:20 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Lewis
Post by Yurui Liu
Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一上午4:17:52 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Lewis
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I find it a bit odd to contrast "an air of delirium" with "utterly
improbable": but then I find the writing in Frankenstein to be stilted
and poor and I have quite a low opinion of it.
Maybe "otherwise" was used literally as "in other ways" without implying a contrast there.
Is the following sentence okay?
The point is, do not use a 200 tear old book to learn how to construct a
modern English sentence. And especially do not use THIS 200 year old
book.
I read the book with particular caution, always trying to find out
how the language differs from current English.
Post by Lewis
Post by Yurui Liu
Apart from the delicious food, the restaurant is also excellent in other ways.
I would not use apart, I don't think as that implies a criticism; I
would use "In addition to" and drop the 'also'.
--
Nobody puts one over on Fred C. Dobbs.
Lewis
2021-01-18 11:09:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午3:49:20 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Lewis
Post by Yurui Liu
Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一上午4:17:52 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Lewis
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I find it a bit odd to contrast "an air of delirium" with "utterly
improbable": but then I find the writing in Frankenstein to be stilted
and poor and I have quite a low opinion of it.
Maybe "otherwise" was used literally as "in other ways" without implying a contrast there.
Is the following sentence okay?
The point is, do not use a 200 tear old book to learn how to construct a
modern English sentence. And especially do not use THIS 200 year old
book.
I read the book with particular caution, always trying to find out
how the language differs from current English.
But the problem is, the language in it different from the language at
the time as well. It is not a historical record of English in the early
1800s, it is a record of the English used in that book. You are not
getting from it what you think you are getting from it.

If you want a picture of what English was like in the early 1800s, read
Austen. Much better writer.
--
But just because you've seen me on your TV Doesn't mean I'm any more
enlightened than you
Yurui Liu
2021-01-18 11:48:33 UTC
Permalink
Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午7:09:13 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Lewis
Post by Yurui Liu
Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一下午3:49:20 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Lewis
Post by Yurui Liu
Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一上午4:17:52 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Lewis
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I find it a bit odd to contrast "an air of delirium" with "utterly
improbable": but then I find the writing in Frankenstein to be stilted
and poor and I have quite a low opinion of it.
Maybe "otherwise" was used literally as "in other ways" without implying a contrast there.
Is the following sentence okay?
The point is, do not use a 200 tear old book to learn how to construct a
modern English sentence. And especially do not use THIS 200 year old
book.
I read the book with particular caution, always trying to find out
how the language differs from current English.
But the problem is, the language in it different from the language at
the time as well. It is not a historical record of English in the early
1800s, it is a record of the English used in that book. You are not
getting from it what you think you are getting from it.
I had considered that possibility when I suggested that others
"search for 19-century examples of 'an otherwise + adjective' or
'his/her/their/the/ otherwise + adjective' on GoogleBooks to see if
using this sequence without a contrast was common at that time."
Post by Lewis
If you want a picture of what English was like in the early 1800s, read
Austen. Much better writer.
--
But just because you've seen me on your TV Doesn't mean I'm any more
enlightened than you
Janet
2021-01-18 15:22:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Lewis
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I find it a bit odd to contrast "an air of delirium" with "utterly
improbable": but then I find the writing in Frankenstein to be stilted
and poor and I have quite a low opinion of it.
Maybe "otherwise" was used literally as "in other ways" without implying a contrast there.
Is the following sentence okay?
Apart from the delicious food, the restaurant is also excellent in other ways.
You might like to consider a UK organisation called
Education Otherwise, for families who educate their children otherwise
than in school.


https://www.educationotherwise.org/

"About Education Otherwise

From a modest start made by a small group of parents in 1977, Education
Otherwise (EO) has grown to become a well respected and vibrant
registered charity, supporting and advising home educating families in
England and Wales.

Our name comes from the Education Act, which states that parents are
responsible for their children's education, ?either by regular
attendance at school or otherwise? and we work to raise public awareness
of the fact that education is compulsory, but school is not."


Janet
Peter Moylan
2021-01-19 04:59:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
You might like to consider a UK organisation called
Education Otherwise, for families who educate their children otherwise
than in school.
https://www.educationotherwise.org/
"About Education Otherwise
From a modest start made by a small group of parents in 1977, Education
Otherwise (EO) has grown to become a well respected and vibrant
registered charity, supporting and advising home educating families in
England and Wales.
Our name comes from the Education Act, which states that parents are
responsible for their children's education, ?either by regular
attendance at school or otherwise? and we work to raise public awareness
of the fact that education is compulsory, but school is not."
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW
Lewis
2021-01-19 09:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
You might like to consider a UK organisation called
Education Otherwise, for families who educate their children otherwise
than in school.
https://www.educationotherwise.org/
"About Education Otherwise
From a modest start made by a small group of parents in 1977, Education
Otherwise (EO) has grown to become a well respected and vibrant
registered charity, supporting and advising home educating families in
England and Wales.
Our name comes from the Education Act, which states that parents are
responsible for their children's education, ?either by regular
attendance at school or otherwise? and we work to raise public awareness
of the fact that education is compulsory, but school is not."
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
Home Schooling in the US is nearly always a choice made out of fundie
christer terror of children being taught science and other Satanic
subjects.

There are exceptions, of course, but when my niece was young and they
lived in a remote area they home schooled and it was difficult to find,
specifically, science curricula that did not involve people riding
dinosaurs.
--
Of pleasures, those that occur most rarely give the most delight
Peter Moylan
2021-01-19 09:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
Home Schooling in the US is nearly always a choice made out of fundie
christer terror of children being taught science and other Satanic
subjects.
There are exceptions, of course, but when my niece was young and they
lived in a remote area they home schooled and it was difficult to find,
specifically, science curricula that did not involve people riding
dinosaurs.
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying direct
orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the ark.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW
RH Draney
2021-01-19 10:19:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying direct
orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the ark.
A pair, or a set of seven?...would brontos be clean or unclean beasts?...r
Peter Moylan
2021-01-19 11:47:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Moylan
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying
direct orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the
ark.
A pair, or a set of seven?...would brontos be clean or unclean
beasts?...r
Fred Flintstone says clean. I'm not aware of anyone else's having
expressed an opinion.

The boss gave clear instructions on the size of the ark. If we can work
out the space needed for all the other animals, then in principle we
should be able to work out how many brontos would fit in the remaining
space.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW
charles
2021-01-19 13:54:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Moylan
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying
direct orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the
ark.
A pair, or a set of seven?...would brontos be clean or unclean beasts?...r
Fred Flintstone says clean. I'm not aware of anyone else's having
expressed an opinion.
The boss gave clear instructions on the size of the ark. If we can work
out the space needed for all the other animals, then in principle we
should be able to work out how many brontos would fit in the remaining
space.
leave room for the Unicorns
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-01-19 14:16:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Moylan
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying
direct orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the
ark.
A pair, or a set of seven?...would brontos be clean or unclean beasts?...r
Fred Flintstone says clean. I'm not aware of anyone else's having
expressed an opinion.
The boss gave clear instructions on the size of the ark. If we can work
out the space needed for all the other animals, then in principle we
should be able to work out how many brontos would fit in the remaining
space.
leave room for the Unicorns
On the pale yellow sands
Where the Unicorn stands
And the Eggs are preparing for Tea
Sing Forty
Sing Thirty
Sing Three.

On the pale yellow sands
There’s a pair of Clasped Hands
And an Eyeball entangled with string
(Sing Forty
Sing Fifty
Sing Three.)
And a Bicycle Seat
And a Plate of Raw Meat
And a Thing that is hardly a Thing.

On the pale yellow sands
There stands
A Commode
That has nothing to do with the case.
Sing Eighty
Sing Ninety
Sing Three.

On the pale yellow sands
There’s a Dorian Mode
And a Temple all covered with Lace
And a Gothic Erection of Urgent Demands
On the Patience of You and of Me.

Lord Berners's inspired by a painting of Salvador Dalí.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Sam Plusnet
2021-01-19 19:46:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Moylan
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying
direct orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the
ark.
A pair, or a set of seven?...would brontos be clean or unclean beasts?...r
Fred Flintstone says clean. I'm not aware of anyone else's having
expressed an opinion.
The boss gave clear instructions on the size of the ark. If we can work
out the space needed for all the other animals, then in principle we
should be able to work out how many brontos would fit in the remaining
space.
leave room for the Unicorns
You could put one in the paint locker, and use its horn as a bowsprit.

(RN ships always kept their paint supplies (flammable) in the narrow
space at the pointy end of the vessel, I don't suppose they were the
only ones.)
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Peter T. Daniels
2021-01-19 15:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Moylan
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying
direct orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the
ark.
A pair, or a set of seven?...would brontos be clean or unclean beasts?...r
Fred Flintstone says clean. I'm not aware of anyone else's having
expressed an opinion.
You think they _ate_ their pets?? What were they, Koreans?
Post by Peter Moylan
The boss gave clear instructions on the size of the ark. If we can work
out the space needed for all the other animals, then in principle we
should be able to work out how many brontos would fit in the remaining
space.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2021-01-19 18:56:21 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 22:47:13 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Moylan
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying
direct orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the
ark.
A pair, or a set of seven?...would brontos be clean or unclean beasts?...r
Fred Flintstone says clean. I'm not aware of anyone else's having
expressed an opinion.
The boss gave clear instructions on the size of the ark. If we can work
out the space needed for all the other animals, then in principle we
should be able to work out how many brontos would fit in the remaining
space.
According to the divinely-guided Wikiparticles the Ark was approximately
134×22×13 m (LxWxH) and an adult brontosaurus could be 22 m long.

There is also the not-so-small point of the space needed to store the
food necessary to feed all the animals and people on board the Ark for
what turned out to be "an hundred and fifty days".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Sam Plusnet
2021-01-19 19:49:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
According to the divinely-guided Wikiparticles the Ark was approximately
134×22×13 m (LxWxH) and an adult brontosaurus could be 22 m long.
There is also the not-so-small point of the space needed to store the
food necessary to feed all the animals and people on board the Ark for
what turned out to be "an hundred and fifty days".
Do not bend, fold, spindle or mutilate this brontosaurus.

However, origami may be the only way to fit everything in.
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Peter T. Daniels
2021-01-19 22:15:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 22:47:13 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Moylan
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying
direct orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the
ark.
A pair, or a set of seven?...would brontos be clean or unclean beasts?...r
Fred Flintstone says clean. I'm not aware of anyone else's having
expressed an opinion.
The boss gave clear instructions on the size of the ark. If we can work
out the space needed for all the other animals, then in principle we
should be able to work out how many brontos would fit in the remaining
space.
According to the divinely-guided Wikiparticles the Ark was approximately
134×22×13 m (LxWxH) and an adult brontosaurus could be 22 m long.
There is also the not-so-small point of the space needed to store the
food necessary to feed all the animals and people on board the Ark for
what turned out to be "an hundred and fifty days".
A short time later, God provided manna for 40 years in the desert. Would
providing a panoply of animal feed for just 40 days be such a strain?
Ken Blake
2021-01-19 23:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 22:47:13 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Moylan
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying
direct orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the
ark.
A pair, or a set of seven?...would brontos be clean or unclean beasts?...r
Fred Flintstone says clean. I'm not aware of anyone else's having
expressed an opinion.
The boss gave clear instructions on the size of the ark. If we can work
out the space needed for all the other animals, then in principle we
should be able to work out how many brontos would fit in the remaining
space.
According to the divinely-guided Wikiparticles the Ark was approximately
134×22×13 m (LxWxH) and an adult brontosaurus could be 22 m long.
There is also the not-so-small point of the space needed to store the
food necessary to feed all the animals and people on board the Ark for
what turned out to be "an hundred and fifty days".
Not to mention that many of those animals would be food for many of the
others, and they would have needed to be widely separated.

Not to mention that the ship would have to carry a lot of fresh water
for all the animals and humans to drink for 150 days, and the ship
wouldn't have been big enough.

Not to mention that it would be be very difficult for so few people to
clean such a small ship every day of all the piss and shit deposited there.

Not to mention that many of those animals would be very dangerous to
humans and it would be very difficult to avoid them.

Not to mention that even if the humans were all vegans, it would be very
difficult to carry enough food for them for 150 days.

Not to mention that many of those animals could fly and it would be very
difficult to keep them confined.

Not to mention that many of those animals live in water and it would be
very difficult to keep enough water for them on so small a ship.

Not to mention that in 150 days, it would be very likely that many of
the animals would fall sick and die.


Probable a few other not-to-mentions that don't quickly come to mind
--
Ken
Jerry Friedman
2021-01-20 02:35:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 22:47:13 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Moylan
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying
direct orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the
ark.
A pair, or a set of seven?...would brontos be clean or unclean beasts?...r
Fred Flintstone says clean. I'm not aware of anyone else's having
expressed an opinion.
The boss gave clear instructions on the size of the ark. If we can work
out the space needed for all the other animals, then in principle we
should be able to work out how many brontos would fit in the remaining
space.
According to the divinely-guided Wikiparticles the Ark was approximately
134×22×13 m (LxWxH) and an adult brontosaurus could be 22 m long.
There is also the not-so-small point of the space needed to store the
food necessary to feed all the animals and people on board the Ark for
what turned out to be "an hundred and fifty days".
Not to mention that many of those animals would be food for many of the
others, and they would have needed to be widely separated.
Not to mention that the ship would have to carry a lot of fresh water
for all the animals and humans to drink for 150 days, and the ship
wouldn't have been big enough.
Not to mention that it would be be very difficult for so few people to
clean such a small ship every day of all the piss and shit deposited there.
Not to mention that many of those animals would be very dangerous to
humans and it would be very difficult to avoid them.
Not to mention that even if the humans were all vegans, it would be very
difficult to carry enough food for them for 150 days.
I may have just figured out why there were seven pairs of each clean animal.
Post by Ken Blake
Not to mention that many of those animals could fly and it would be very
difficult to keep them confined.
Not to mention that many of those animals live in water and it would be
very difficult to keep enough water for them on so small a ship.
Not to mention that in 150 days, it would be very likely that many of
the animals would fall sick and die.
Probable a few other not-to-mentions that don't quickly come to mind
What you didn't mention is that God is supposed to be omnipotent. The
only one of those that's a problem is the food, and that's because the
author made the mistake of saying that Noah was supposed to take
the food aboard the ark instead of saying that God provided it.
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2021-01-20 03:39:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
What you didn't mention is that God is supposed to be omnipotent. The
only one of those that's a problem is the food, and that's because the
author made the mistake of saying that Noah was supposed to take
the food aboard the ark instead of saying that God provided it.
Indeed. The method described in a later desert crossing should have
worked well here too.

Just don't forget to bring a pair of Snowths.

--
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against
his government.
-- Edward Abbey
Peter Moylan
2021-01-20 00:59:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 22:47:13 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Moylan
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying
direct orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto
the ark.
A pair, or a set of seven?...would brontos be clean or unclean beasts?...r
Fred Flintstone says clean. I'm not aware of anyone else's having
expressed an opinion.
The boss gave clear instructions on the size of the ark. If we can
work out the space needed for all the other animals, then in
principle we should be able to work out how many brontos would fit
in the remaining space.
According to the divinely-guided Wikiparticles the Ark was
approximately 134×22×13 m (LxWxH) and an adult brontosaurus could be
22 m long.
There is also the not-so-small point of the space needed to store
the food necessary to feed all the animals and people on board the
Ark for what turned out to be "an hundred and fifty days".
A slight simplification of the food problem follows once you realise
that some of the animals were carnivores. After a few days the
population of the ark would be a lot smaller.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW
Peter T. Daniels
2021-01-19 15:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Moylan
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying direct
orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the ark.
A pair, or a set of seven?...would brontos be clean or unclean beasts?...r
Divide the hoof, or not? Chew the cud, or not? Scales, or not?

The criteria are available.

Recent evidence suggests proto-feathers.
Madhu
2021-01-19 17:46:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Moylan
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying direct
orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the ark.
A pair, or a set of seven?...would brontos be clean or unclean beasts?...r
Puff from Palestine here is described as kosher

http://spikesmusic-folk.spike-jamie.com/misc6/PUFF-THE-JEWISH-DRAGON.PDF
Peter T. Daniels
2021-01-19 22:13:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madhu
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Moylan
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying direct
orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the ark.
A pair, or a set of seven?...would brontos be clean or unclean beasts?...r
Puff from Palestine here is described as kosher
http://spikesmusic-folk.spike-jamie.com/misc6/PUFF-THE-JEWISH-DRAGON.PDF
That says that he was an observant Jew, not that he was kosher to eat. The
bit at the end, that his offspring were "kosher little dragons," doesn't mean
they were fit to be eaten, but that by metonymy they were Jewish, too (but
that was because their mother was Jewish).
Madhu
2021-01-20 03:08:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madhu
Puff from Palestine here is described as kosher
http://spikesmusic-folk.spike-jamie.com/misc6/PUFF-THE-JEWISH-DRAGON.PDF
That says that he was an observant Jew, not that he was kosher to
eat. The bit at the end, that his offspring were "kosher little
dragons," doesn't mean they were fit to be eaten, but that by metonymy
they were Jewish, too (but that was because their mother was Jewish).
All valid points but I was expecting some quibbling over dinosaur vs
dragon
J. J. Lodder
2021-01-19 12:18:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
Home Schooling in the US is nearly always a choice made out of fundie
christer terror of children being taught science and other Satanic
subjects.
There are exceptions, of course, but when my niece was young and they
lived in a remote area they home schooled and it was difficult to find,
specifically, science curricula that did not involve people riding
dinosaurs.
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying direct
orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the ark.
But Noah did, -all- means all.
Unfortunately the Brontos, and the T-rexes, and the Mammoths,
and the cave bears, and so on, all died out
in the 200-year ice age that followed shortly after the flood.

And no, I'm not the one who invented this,

Jan
Ken Blake
2021-01-19 15:01:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
Home Schooling in the US is nearly always a choice made out of fundie
christer terror of children being taught science and other Satanic
subjects.
There are exceptions, of course, but when my niece was young and they
lived in a remote area they home schooled and it was difficult to find,
specifically, science curricula that did not involve people riding
dinosaurs.
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying direct
orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the ark.
Not to mention the many millions of other species that nobody in that
part of the world had any knowledge of.
--
Ken
J. J. Lodder
2021-01-19 22:13:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
Home Schooling in the US is nearly always a choice made out of fundie
christer terror of children being taught science and other Satanic
subjects.
There are exceptions, of course, but when my niece was young and they
lived in a remote area they home schooled and it was difficult to find,
specifically, science curricula that did not involve people riding
dinosaurs.
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying direct
orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the ark.
Not to mention the many millions of other species that nobody in that
part of the world had any knowledge of.
That's why creationists will say 'kinds', not species,

Jan
Ken Blake
2021-01-19 23:14:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
Home Schooling in the US is nearly always a choice made out of fundie
christer terror of children being taught science and other Satanic
subjects.
There are exceptions, of course, but when my niece was young and they
lived in a remote area they home schooled and it was difficult to find,
specifically, science curricula that did not involve people riding
dinosaurs.
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying direct
orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the ark.
Not to mention the many millions of other species that nobody in that
part of the world had any knowledge of.
That's why creationists will say 'kinds', not species,
It doesn't matter what creationists say. What matters is the nonsense
that the bible says.
--
Ken
Mack A. Damia
2021-01-20 00:02:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
Home Schooling in the US is nearly always a choice made out of fundie
christer terror of children being taught science and other Satanic
subjects.
There are exceptions, of course, but when my niece was young and they
lived in a remote area they home schooled and it was difficult to find,
specifically, science curricula that did not involve people riding
dinosaurs.
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying direct
orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the ark.
Not to mention the many millions of other species that nobody in that
part of the world had any knowledge of.
That's why creationists will say 'kinds', not species,
It doesn't matter what creationists say. What matters is the nonsense
that the bible says.
Religion helped civilize the world at a time when it needed
civilizing, but along with it - almost immediately - it caused rank
divisions and produced copious bloodshed.

I guess from the way many people talk that billions of people around
the world believe that their souls will exist after death and have
consciousness in an afterlife. Of course, I hope so, but I certainly
don't believe it.
Peter Moylan
2021-01-20 01:05:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of
home schooling.
Home Schooling in the US is nearly always a choice made out of
fundie christer terror of children being taught science and other
Satanic subjects.
There are exceptions, of course, but when my niece was young and
they lived in a remote area they home schooled and it was
difficult to find, specifically, science curricula that did not
involve people riding dinosaurs.
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying
direct orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the
ark.
Not to mention the many millions of other species that nobody in that
part of the world had any knowledge of.
That's why creationists believe that kangaroos were not originally
native to Australia. They started out in the Middle East, and migrated
to Australia after the flood waters receded.

That's not a joke, by the way. Googling on questions like "Were there
kangaroos on the ark?" turns up a whole bunch of people who take this
weird stuff seriously.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW
RH Draney
2021-01-20 03:16:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
That's why creationists believe that kangaroos were not originally
native to Australia. They started out in the Middle East, and migrated
to Australia after the flood waters receded.
That's not a joke, by the way. Googling on questions like "Were there
kangaroos on the ark?" turns up a whole bunch of people who take this
weird stuff seriously.
Kangaroos are not mentioned in the Bible, and therefore cannot
exist...the same argument can also be made for cats....r
Peter T. Daniels
2021-01-19 15:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
Home Schooling in the US is nearly always a choice made out of fundie
christer terror of children being taught science and other Satanic
subjects.
There are exceptions, of course, but when my niece was young and they
lived in a remote area they home schooled and it was difficult to find,
specifically, science curricula that did not involve people riding
dinosaurs.
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying direct
orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the ark.
Don't be ridiculous. "Dinosaur" bones are just decoys installed either
by Satan (when I mentioned this the other day it led to a false characterization
of Mazdaism) to deceive humans, or by God to test their faith.

Or the bones of giant birds that were of the same "kind" as the smaller
birds that may or may not have needed sanctuary on the Ark.

Remember, no one denied that new species could arise (by whatever
mechanisms the scientists could dream up) within each "kind"; it was
the _kinds_ that were created on some of the first six "days" that were
immutable.
J. J. Lodder
2021-01-19 22:13:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
Home Schooling in the US is nearly always a choice made out of fundie
christer terror of children being taught science and other Satanic
subjects.
There are exceptions, of course, but when my niece was young and they
lived in a remote area they home schooled and it was difficult to find,
specifically, science curricula that did not involve people riding
dinosaurs.
It has just occurred to me that Noah was guilty of disobeying direct
orders when he failed to get a pair of brontosaurs onto the ark.
Don't be ridiculous. "Dinosaur" bones are just decoys installed either by
Satan (when I mentioned this the other day it led to a false
characterization of Mazdaism) to deceive humans, or by God to test their
faith.
Oh no, Mazdaism, just imagine the horror of it.

Quick, make the sign of the T, and repent, you sinner,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2021-01-19 22:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Don't be ridiculous. "Dinosaur" bones are just decoys installed either by
Satan (when I mentioned this the other day it led to a false
characterization of Mazdaism) to deceive humans, or by God to test their
faith.
Oh no, Mazdaism, just imagine the horror of it.
Quick, make the sign of the T, and repent, you sinner,
Mazdaism : Zoroastrianism :: Islam : Mohammedanism.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-01-19 10:24:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
You might like to consider a UK organisation called
Education Otherwise, for families who educate their children otherwise
than in school.
https://www.educationotherwise.org/
"About Education Otherwise
From a modest start made by a small group of parents in 1977, Education
Otherwise (EO) has grown to become a well respected and vibrant
registered charity, supporting and advising home educating families in
England and Wales.
Our name comes from the Education Act, which states that parents are
responsible for their children's education, ?either by regular
attendance at school or otherwise? and we work to raise public awareness
of the fact that education is compulsory, but school is not."
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
Home Schooling in the US is nearly always a choice made out of fundie
christer terror of children being taught science and other Satanic
subjects.
When I were a lad home schooling was allowed in the UK, but was subject
to the same testing by inspectors from the Ministry of Education as
schools.
Post by Lewis
There are exceptions, of course, but when my niece was young and they
lived in a remote area they home schooled and it was difficult to find,
specifically, science curricula that did not involve people riding
dinosaurs.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Jerry Friedman
2021-01-19 20:45:25 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
Home Schooling in the US is nearly always a choice made out of fundie
christer terror of children being taught science and other Satanic
subjects.
There are exceptions, of course, but when my niece was young and they
lived in a remote area they home schooled and it was difficult to find,
specifically, science curricula that did not involve people riding
dinosaurs.
They couldn't get normal public school materials?
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2021-01-19 15:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
Our name comes from the Education Act, which states that parents are
responsible for their children's education, ?either by regular
attendance at school or otherwise? and we work to raise public awareness
of the fact that education is compulsory, but school is not."
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
She was not, that we know of, a product of home-schooling, but a
perpetrator of it. Your continual returns to browbeating a long-ago
adversary say more about you and the scourge of militant atheism
than about her.
Madhu
2021-01-19 17:22:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
She was not, that we know of, a product of home-schooling, but a
perpetrator of it. Your continual returns to browbeating a long-ago
adversary say more about you and the scourge of militant atheism than
about her.
Or just Scarred.
Peter Moylan
2021-01-20 01:12:52 UTC
Permalink
On Monday, January 18, 2021 at 11:59:58 PM UTC-5, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
Our name comes from the Education Act, which states that parents
are responsible for their children's education, ?either by
regular attendance at school or otherwise? and we work to raise
public awareness of the fact that education is compulsory, but
school is not."
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of
home schooling.
She was not, that we know of, a product of home-schooling, but a
perpetrator of it. Your continual returns to browbeating a long-ago
adversary say more about you and the scourge of militant atheism than
about her.
Browbeating? I might have laughed at her, but I don't think I attacked her.

You didn't have to be a militant atheist to see that there was a very
serious deficiency in her education. Agreed, we don't know whether that
was because of home schooling. She might just have lived in an area that
didn't have any competent teachers.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW
Jerry Friedman
2021-01-19 17:14:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
You might like to consider a UK organisation called
Education Otherwise, for families who educate their children otherwise
than in school.
https://www.educationotherwise.org/
"About Education Otherwise
From a modest start made by a small group of parents in 1977, Education
Otherwise (EO) has grown to become a well respected and vibrant
registered charity, supporting and advising home educating families in
England and Wales.
Our name comes from the Education Act, which states that parents are
responsible for their children's education, ?either by regular
attendance at school or otherwise? and we work to raise public awareness
of the fact that education is compulsory, but school is not."
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
Those of us who have taught homeschoolers and former homeschoolers have
a better impression.
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-01-19 17:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
You might like to consider a UK organisation called
Education Otherwise, for families who educate their children otherwise
than in school.
https://www.educationotherwise.org/
"About Education Otherwise
From a modest start made by a small group of parents in 1977, Education
Otherwise (EO) has grown to become a well respected and vibrant
registered charity, supporting and advising home educating families in
England and Wales.
Our name comes from the Education Act, which states that parents are
responsible for their children's education, ?either by regular
attendance at school or otherwise? and we work to raise public awareness
of the fact that education is compulsory, but school is not."
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
Those of us who have taught homeschoolers and former homeschoolers have
a better impression.
My experience is very limited, but it agrees with this. The unique
previously homeschooled boy at my primary school was considered by our
headmaster to have been well taught. However, his mother had taught him
reading, writing and elementary arithmetic, and probably thought that
all he needed to know about Jesus he could get at church.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Lewis
2021-01-19 18:53:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
You might like to consider a UK organisation called
Education Otherwise, for families who educate their children otherwise
than in school.
https://www.educationotherwise.org/
"About Education Otherwise
From a modest start made by a small group of parents in 1977, Education
Otherwise (EO) has grown to become a well respected and vibrant
registered charity, supporting and advising home educating families in
England and Wales.
Our name comes from the Education Act, which states that parents are
responsible for their children's education, ?either by regular
attendance at school or otherwise? and we work to raise public awareness
of the fact that education is compulsory, but school is not."
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
Those of us who have taught homeschoolers and former homeschoolers have
a better impression.
Home schooled in the US?
--
When treading water in a circle of sharks, a wizard will always
consider other wizards to be the most immediate danger. --The
Last Continent
Jerry Friedman
2021-01-19 19:05:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
You might like to consider a UK organisation called
Education Otherwise, for families who educate their children otherwise
than in school.
https://www.educationotherwise.org/
"About Education Otherwise
From a modest start made by a small group of parents in 1977, Education
Otherwise (EO) has grown to become a well respected and vibrant
registered charity, supporting and advising home educating families in
England and Wales.
Our name comes from the Education Act, which states that parents are
responsible for their children's education, ?either by regular
attendance at school or otherwise? and we work to raise public awareness
of the fact that education is compulsory, but school is not."
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
Those of us who have taught homeschoolers and former homeschoolers have
a better impression.
Home schooled in the US?
Yes, mostly in Santa Fe, though, where there's probably a lower incidence of
fundamentalist Christian homeschoolers than in a lot of places.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2021-01-19 20:06:20 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 09:14:50 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
You might like to consider a UK organisation called
Education Otherwise, for families who educate their children otherwise
than in school.
https://www.educationotherwise.org/
"About Education Otherwise
From a modest start made by a small group of parents in 1977, Education
Otherwise (EO) has grown to become a well respected and vibrant
registered charity, supporting and advising home educating families in
England and Wales.
Our name comes from the Education Act, which states that parents are
responsible for their children's education, ?either by regular
attendance at school or otherwise? and we work to raise public awareness
of the fact that education is compulsory, but school is not."
Those of us who remember Jenn have a rather poor impression of home
schooling.
Those of us who have taught homeschoolers and former homeschoolers have
a better impression.
Those being homeschooled in this area can participate in a school's
athletic programs (and, I think, other programs like band). There's a
kid that plays football on the high school team that my grandsons play
for. He's homeschooled, but evidently does very well academically.

He and my oldest grandson are studying to re-take the SAT test, and
his first score, and my grandson's first score, was high enough to
qualify for an 80% tuition discount at any Florida state university.

If they can get a slightly higher score on the second test, they
qualify for 100% tuition discount. They missed the needed score by
just a few points.

A SAT of 1290 or higher qualifies for the 80%, but I don't know the
100% requirement.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2021-01-18 16:30:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Lewis 在 2021年1月18日 星期一上午4:17:52 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Lewis
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Yurui Liu
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon
it as the ravings of insanity.
Today one might write "already so utterly improbable," but "otherwise"
it is fine.
I find it a bit odd to contrast "an air of delirium" with "utterly
improbable": but then I find the writing in Frankenstein to be stilted
and poor and I have quite a low opinion of it.
Maybe "otherwise" was used literally as "in other ways" without implying a contrast there.
Is the following sentence okay?
Apart from the delicious food, the restaurant is also excellent in other ways.
You wouldn't usually use "otherwise" to add a compliment to a compliment.
Here it would be "In addition to," not "Apart from."

Compare the old joke: "Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy
the play?"
Mack A. Damia
2021-01-16 16:43:11 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 07:45:30 -0800 (PST), Yurui Liu
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have looked upon it as the ravings of insanity.
The monster was his creation, and "it's alive" proves the
implausibility of his tale.

"Otherwise", it is the stuff of fantasy, but he experienced the
far-fetched tale he is relating to the reader and lived through it.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-01-16 17:15:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have
looked upon it as the ravings of insanity.
Yes.

"Endued" would now be "endowed."
Yurui Liu
2021-01-17 01:21:46 UTC
Permalink
Peter T. Daniels 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午1:15:33 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Yurui Liu
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have
looked upon it as the ravings of insanity.
Yes.
Thank you.
In what sense is "otherwise" used there?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Endued" would now be "endowed."
Peter T. Daniels
2021-01-17 14:53:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yurui Liu
Peter T. Daniels 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午1:15:33 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Yurui Liu
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have
looked upon it as the ravings of insanity.
Yes.
Thank you.
In what sense is "otherwise" used there?
Exactly as everyone has been telling you. Unusual, but not obscure.
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Endued" would now be "endowed."
Yurui Liu
2021-01-17 15:12:59 UTC
Permalink
Peter T. Daniels 在 2021年1月17日 星期日下午10:53:28 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Yurui Liu
Peter T. Daniels 在 2021年1月17日 星期日上午1:15:33 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Yurui Liu
Sorry to bore you with yet another sentence from Frankenstein.
Do you think the following use of "otherwise" is natural by
the standards of current English?
Day dawned; and I directed my steps towards the town. The gates
were open; and I hastened to my father's house. My first thought was
to discover what I knew of the murderer, and cause instant pursuit to
be made. But I paused when I reflected on the story that I had to tell.
A being whom I myself had formed, and endued with life, had met me
at midnight among the precipices of an inaccessible mountain. I
remembered also the nervous fever with which I had been seized just
at the time that I dated my creation, and which would give an air of
delirium to a tale otherwise so utterly improbable. I well knew that if
any other had communicated such a relation to me, I should have
looked upon it as the ravings of insanity.
Yes.
Thank you.
In what sense is "otherwise" used there?
Exactly as everyone has been telling you. Unusual, but not obscure.
I was looking for a definition I could match the sentence with, and
comparable examples from contemporary sources.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Yurui Liu
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Endued" would now be "endowed."
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