OT: The Catholic Church

[Jet Pot]

Which has destroyed more lives?

A) Hitler's Germany

B) The Catholic Church

Just wondering.

[dave_1]

Easy answer...B....not even close

[SwampMidget]

yhea, that Mother Teresa truly ranks up there w/ people like Dr.
Mengele.

keep up the Church bashing it's very trendy.

[Redrum]

It's not exactly diffucult to bash the Catholic Church.  Plus, they really are
responsible for a great deal of death throughout history.  But I'd still rather
deal with them than Hitler's Germany - luckily I don't have to deal with either.

Post by SwampMidget
yhea, that Mother Teresa truly ranks up there w/ people like Dr.
Mengele.
keep up the Church bashing it's very trendy.

_______________________________________________________________
New Feature: Mark All As Read! - http://www.recpoker.com

[Irish Mike]

What religion were Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot Mao and Saddam? Biggest mass
murderers in the history of this planet and not a Catholic in the bunch.
Given the body count of the Nazis and Communists you would have to conclude
that the biggest murderers on the planet are atheists.

Irish Mike
[Catholic and damn proud of it.]

Post by Jet Pot
Which has destroyed more lives?
A) Hitler's Germany
B) The Catholic Church
Just wondering.

[garycarson]

Post by Irish Mike
What religion were Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot Mao and Saddam? Biggest mass
murderers in the history of this planet and not a Catholic in the bunch.
Given the body count of the Nazis and Communists you would have to conclude
that the biggest murderers on the planet are atheists.

Is Catholic logic the same as Irish sobriety?


Gary Carson
You can get a manuscript edition of
The Complete Book of Hold'em Poker at
www.garycarson.com
for $4.50

[William Coleman]

Post by Irish Mike
What religion were Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot Mao and Saddam? Biggest mass
murderers in the history of this planet and not a Catholic in the bunch.
Given the body count of the Nazis and Communists you would have to
conclude that the biggest murderers on the planet are atheists.
Irish Mike
[Catholic and damn proud of it.]

First of all, Hitler's body count doesn't even come close to the 100 million
the Catholic Church has murdered for the crime of rejecting Catholic
doctrine.

Second of all, Hitler wasn't Catholic??? News to me.

http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/hitler.htm

Hitler's Christianity

Some people say Adolf Hitler was an atheist. They blame atheism for Hitler's
philosophy. But the historical record shows that Hitler believed in God and
was convinced he was carrying out God's will.

Hitler served as an altar boy in the Catholic Church. Growing up in this
environment, he surely learned something of the centuries of discrimination
and persecution the Church had supported against Jews in Europe.

Former Jesuit theologian Peter de Rosa describes the groundwork Catholic
theology laid for Hitler and the Nazis: "[Catholicism’s] disastrous theology
had prepared the way for Hitler and his ‘final solution.’ [The Church
published] over a hundred anti-Semitic documents. Not one conciliar decree,
not one papal encyclical, bull, or pastoral directive suggest that Jesus’
command, ‘love your neighbor as yourself,' applied to Jews."

Not surprisingly, then, Hitler wrote in his book, Mein Kampf: ". . . I am
convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the
Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." He made essentially the same claim in a
speech before the Reichstag in 1938.

Hitler considered himself a Catholic until the day he died. In 1941 he told
Gerhard Engel, one of his generals: "I am now as before a Catholic and will
always remain so." In fact, Hitler was never excommunicated from the
Catholic Church, and Mein Kampf was not placed on the Church's Index of
Forbidden Books.

Hitler's biographer John Toland explains Catholicism's influence on the
Holocaust. He says of Hitler: "Still a member in good standing of the Church
of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its
teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore,
could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as
the avenging hand of god. . .."

Even after World War II, Catholic assistance to the Nazis continued. The
Vatican aided the escape of more Nazis than any other governmental or
private organization.

The Protestant influence on Nazi Germany was no better, because Hitler is
said to have admired the founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther, more than
any other German. Among Luther's many denunciations of the Jews, there are
such religious sentiments as: "The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows
seven times higher than ordinary thieves," and "We ought to take revenge on
the Jews and kill them."

When Hitler was asked in 1933 what he planned to do about the Jews, he said
he would do what Christians had been preaching for centuries. And the Nazis
carried out their first large-scale pogrom of Jews in honor of Luther's
birthday.

Christians constituted a wellspring of support for Hitler. Steve Allen notes
that in the 1930s, Nazi Germany "was the most church-affiliated nation in
Europe. The German people were almost entirely Catholic and Lutheran.
Despite such factors they launched the Holocaust and World War II." Charles
Kimball likewise says the Holocaust "would not have happened without the
active participation of, sympathetic support of, and relative indifference
exhibited by large numbers of Christians."

Also in pre-World War II Germany, corporal punishment was used in the
schools and schoolchildren were required to start their days with prayer.
Today's advocates of spanking and school prayer should consider that those
practices, although supported by religion, proved ineffective in promoting
high ethical standards and good behavior among German youth.

Further, Nazi Germany's soldiers wore belt buckles inscribed "Gott mitt uns"
("God is with us"). This slogan sounds eerily similar to Ohio's present
motto, "With God, all things are possible."

Like many tyrants both past and present, Hitler used the mantle of religion
to justify and further his selfish, hateful, and destructive philosophy. By
conditioning people to blindly accept the pronouncements of authorities,
instead of teaching them to think for themselves, religions often make it
easy for such evil dictators and demagogues to succeed.



William Coleman (ramashiva)

[JoeR]

I read Tollands book on Hitler a few years back.  If I remember correctly he
couldnt have accomplished what he did with out the backing and blessing of the
Vatican.

btw.  Nice post.  very intelligent

Post by William Coleman

Post by Irish Mike
What religion were Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot Mao and Saddam? Biggest mass
murderers in the history of this planet and not a Catholic in the bunch.
Given the body count of the Nazis and Communists you would have to
conclude that the biggest murderers on the planet are atheists.
Irish Mike
[Catholic and damn proud of it.]

First of all, Hitler's body count doesn't even come close to the 100 million
the Catholic Church has murdered for the crime of rejecting Catholic
doctrine.
Second of all, Hitler wasn't Catholic??? News to me.
http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/hitler.htm
Hitler's Christianity
Some people say Adolf Hitler was an atheist. They blame atheism for Hitler's
philosophy. But the historical record shows that Hitler believed in God and
was convinced he was carrying out God's will.
Hitler served as an altar boy in the Catholic Church. Growing up in this
environment, he surely learned something of the centuries of discrimination
and persecution the Church had supported against Jews in Europe.
Former Jesuit theologian Peter de Rosa describes the groundwork Catholic
theology laid for Hitler and the Nazis: "[Catholicism s] disastrous theology
had prepared the way for Hitler and his final solution. [The Church
published] over a hundred anti-Semitic documents. Not one conciliar decree,
not one papal encyclical, bull, or pastoral directive suggest that Jesus
command, love your neighbor as yourself,' applied to Jews."
Not surprisingly, then, Hitler wrote in his book, Mein Kampf: ". . . I am
convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the
Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." He made essentially the same claim in a
speech before the Reichstag in 1938.
Hitler considered himself a Catholic until the day he died. In 1941 he told
Gerhard Engel, one of his generals: "I am now as before a Catholic and will
always remain so." In fact, Hitler was never excommunicated from the
Catholic Church, and Mein Kampf was not placed on the Church's Index of
Forbidden Books.
Hitler's biographer John Toland explains Catholicism's influence on the
Holocaust. He says of Hitler: "Still a member in good standing of the Church
of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its
teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore,
could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as
the avenging hand of god. . .."
Even after World War II, Catholic assistance to the Nazis continued. The
Vatican aided the escape of more Nazis than any other governmental or
private organization.
The Protestant influence on Nazi Germany was no better, because Hitler is
said to have admired the founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther, more than
any other German. Among Luther's many denunciations of the Jews, there are
such religious sentiments as: "The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows
seven times higher than ordinary thieves," and "We ought to take revenge on
the Jews and kill them."
When Hitler was asked in 1933 what he planned to do about the Jews, he said
he would do what Christians had been preaching for centuries. And the Nazis
carried out their first large-scale pogrom of Jews in honor of Luther's
birthday.
Christians constituted a wellspring of support for Hitler. Steve Allen notes
that in the 1930s, Nazi Germany "was the most church-affiliated nation in
Europe. The German people were almost entirely Catholic and Lutheran.
Despite such factors they launched the Holocaust and World War II." Charles
Kimball likewise says the Holocaust "would not have happened without the
active participation of, sympathetic support of, and relative indifference
exhibited by large numbers of Christians."
Also in pre-World War II Germany, corporal punishment was used in the
schools and schoolchildren were required to start their days with prayer.
Today's advocates of spanking and school prayer should consider that those
practices, although supported by religion, proved ineffective in promoting
high ethical standards and good behavior among German youth.
Further, Nazi Germany's soldiers wore belt buckles inscribed "Gott mitt uns"
("God is with us"). This slogan sounds eerily similar to Ohio's present
motto, "With God, all things are possible."
Like many tyrants both past and present, Hitler used the mantle of religion
to justify and further his selfish, hateful, and destructive philosophy. By
conditioning people to blindly accept the pronouncements of authorities,
instead of teaching them to think for themselves, religions often make it
easy for such evil dictators and demagogues to succeed.
William Coleman (ramashiva)

_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com

[Susan]

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html
Quotes Establishing Hitler's Non-Christianity
Hitler may in public have claimed to be doing the will of God, but records
of his private conversations show otherwise. Many of these were recorded by
his secretary and published in a book called Hitler's Table Talk (Adolf
Hitler, London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953). I have lifted the text of
these from the soc.religion.christian newsgroup's Hitler FAQ.
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of
Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are
inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was
introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul,
for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against
nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic
cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When
understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine
will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday
its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little
by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in
conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that
it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

21st October, 1941, midday

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the
destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never
a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for
the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old
system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of
Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the
instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed
into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we
shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p
63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing
more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead
into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe
transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and
Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the
only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)

14th December, 1941, midday

"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between
National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible,
and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with
translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the
annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism,
under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner

"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man
who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection,
can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors,
that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with
the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease
of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its
demise>." (p 278)

I read Tollands book on Hitler a few years back. If I remember correctly
he
couldnt have accomplished what he did with out the backing and blessing of the
Vatican.
btw. Nice post. very intelligent

Post by William Coleman

Post by Irish Mike
What religion were Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot Mao and Saddam? Biggest mass
murderers in the history of this planet and not a Catholic in the bunch.
Given the body count of the Nazis and Communists you would have to
conclude that the biggest murderers on the planet are atheists.
Irish Mike
[Catholic and damn proud of it.]

First of all, Hitler's body count doesn't even come close to the 100 million
the Catholic Church has murdered for the crime of rejecting Catholic
doctrine.
Second of all, Hitler wasn't Catholic??? News to me.
http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/hitler.htm
Hitler's Christianity
Some people say Adolf Hitler was an atheist. They blame atheism for Hitler's
philosophy. But the historical record shows that Hitler believed in God and
was convinced he was carrying out God's will.
Hitler served as an altar boy in the Catholic Church. Growing up in this
environment, he surely learned something of the centuries of
discrimination
and persecution the Church had supported against Jews in Europe.
Former Jesuit theologian Peter de Rosa describes the groundwork Catholic
theology laid for Hitler and the Nazis: "[Catholicism s] disastrous theology
had prepared the way for Hitler and his final solution. [The Church
published] over a hundred anti-Semitic documents. Not one conciliar decree,
not one papal encyclical, bull, or pastoral directive suggest that Jesus
command, love your neighbor as yourself,' applied to Jews."
Not surprisingly, then, Hitler wrote in his book, Mein Kampf: ". . . I am
convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the
Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." He made essentially the same claim in a
speech before the Reichstag in 1938.
Hitler considered himself a Catholic until the day he died. In 1941 he told
Gerhard Engel, one of his generals: "I am now as before a Catholic and will
always remain so." In fact, Hitler was never excommunicated from the
Catholic Church, and Mein Kampf was not placed on the Church's Index of
Forbidden Books.
Hitler's biographer John Toland explains Catholicism's influence on the
Holocaust. He says of Hitler: "Still a member in good standing of the Church
of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its
teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore,
could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as
the avenging hand of god. . .."
Even after World War II, Catholic assistance to the Nazis continued. The
Vatican aided the escape of more Nazis than any other governmental or
private organization.
The Protestant influence on Nazi Germany was no better, because Hitler is
said to have admired the founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther, more than
any other German. Among Luther's many denunciations of the Jews, there are
such religious sentiments as: "The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows
seven times higher than ordinary thieves," and "We ought to take revenge on
the Jews and kill them."
When Hitler was asked in 1933 what he planned to do about the Jews, he said
he would do what Christians had been preaching for centuries. And the Nazis
carried out their first large-scale pogrom of Jews in honor of Luther's
birthday.
Christians constituted a wellspring of support for Hitler. Steve Allen notes
that in the 1930s, Nazi Germany "was the most church-affiliated nation in
Europe. The German people were almost entirely Catholic and Lutheran.
Despite such factors they launched the Holocaust and World War II." Charles
Kimball likewise says the Holocaust "would not have happened without the
active participation of, sympathetic support of, and relative
indifference
exhibited by large numbers of Christians."
Also in pre-World War II Germany, corporal punishment was used in the
schools and schoolchildren were required to start their days with prayer.
Today's advocates of spanking and school prayer should consider that those
practices, although supported by religion, proved ineffective in promoting
high ethical standards and good behavior among German youth.
Further, Nazi Germany's soldiers wore belt buckles inscribed "Gott mitt uns"
("God is with us"). This slogan sounds eerily similar to Ohio's present
motto, "With God, all things are possible."
Like many tyrants both past and present, Hitler used the mantle of religion
to justify and further his selfish, hateful, and destructive philosophy. By
conditioning people to blindly accept the pronouncements of authorities,
instead of teaching them to think for themselves, religions often make it
easy for such evil dictators and demagogues to succeed.
William Coleman (ramashiva)

_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com

[bub]

and susan applies da bitch slap soundly..WHACK

Post by Susan
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html
Quotes Establishing Hitler's Non-Christianity
Hitler may in public have claimed to be doing the will of God, but records
of his private conversations show otherwise. Many of these were recorded by
his secretary and published in a book called Hitler's Table Talk (Adolf
Hitler, London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953). I have lifted the text of
these from the soc.religion.christian newsgroup's Hitler FAQ.
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of
Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are
inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was
introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul,
for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against
nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic
cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When
understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine
will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday
its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little
by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in
conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that
it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
21st October, 1941, midday
"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the
destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never
a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for
the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old
system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of
Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the
instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed
into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we
shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p
63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing
more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead
into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe
transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and
Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the
only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)
14th December, 1941, midday
"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between
National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible,
and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with
translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the
annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism,
under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner
"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man
who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection,
can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors,
that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with
the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease
of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its
demise>." (p 278)

I read Tollands book on Hitler a few years back. If I remember correctly
he
couldnt have accomplished what he did with out the backing and blessing of the
Vatican.
btw. Nice post. very intelligent

Post by William Coleman

Post by Irish Mike
What religion were Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot Mao and Saddam? Biggest mass
murderers in the history of this planet and not a Catholic in the bunch.
Given the body count of the Nazis and Communists you would have to
conclude that the biggest murderers on the planet are atheists.
Irish Mike
[Catholic and damn proud of it.]

First of all, Hitler's body count doesn't even come close to the 100 million
the Catholic Church has murdered for the crime of rejecting Catholic
doctrine.
Second of all, Hitler wasn't Catholic??? News to me.
http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/hitler.htm
Hitler's Christianity
Some people say Adolf Hitler was an atheist. They blame atheism for Hitler's
philosophy. But the historical record shows that Hitler believed in God and
was convinced he was carrying out God's will.
Hitler served as an altar boy in the Catholic Church. Growing up in this
environment, he surely learned something of the centuries of
discrimination
and persecution the Church had supported against Jews in Europe.
Former Jesuit theologian Peter de Rosa describes the groundwork Catholic
theology laid for Hitler and the Nazis: "[Catholicism s] disastrous theology
had prepared the way for Hitler and his final solution. [The Church
published] over a hundred anti-Semitic documents. Not one conciliar decree,
not one papal encyclical, bull, or pastoral directive suggest that Jesus
command, love your neighbor as yourself,' applied to Jews."
Not surprisingly, then, Hitler wrote in his book, Mein Kampf: ". . . I am
convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the
Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." He made essentially the same claim in a
speech before the Reichstag in 1938.
Hitler considered himself a Catholic until the day he died. In 1941 he told
Gerhard Engel, one of his generals: "I am now as before a Catholic and will
always remain so." In fact, Hitler was never excommunicated from the
Catholic Church, and Mein Kampf was not placed on the Church's Index of
Forbidden Books.
Hitler's biographer John Toland explains Catholicism's influence on the
Holocaust. He says of Hitler: "Still a member in good standing of the Church
of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its
teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore,
could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as
the avenging hand of god. . .."
Even after World War II, Catholic assistance to the Nazis continued. The
Vatican aided the escape of more Nazis than any other governmental or
private organization.
The Protestant influence on Nazi Germany was no better, because Hitler is
said to have admired the founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther, more than
any other German. Among Luther's many denunciations of the Jews, there are
such religious sentiments as: "The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows
seven times higher than ordinary thieves," and "We ought to take revenge on
the Jews and kill them."
When Hitler was asked in 1933 what he planned to do about the Jews, he said
he would do what Christians had been preaching for centuries. And the Nazis
carried out their first large-scale pogrom of Jews in honor of Luther's
birthday.
Christians constituted a wellspring of support for Hitler. Steve Allen notes
that in the 1930s, Nazi Germany "was the most church-affiliated nation in
Europe. The German people were almost entirely Catholic and Lutheran.
Despite such factors they launched the Holocaust and World War II." Charles
Kimball likewise says the Holocaust "would not have happened without the
active participation of, sympathetic support of, and relative indifference
exhibited by large numbers of Christians."
Also in pre-World War II Germany, corporal punishment was used in the
schools and schoolchildren were required to start their days with prayer.
Today's advocates of spanking and school prayer should consider that those
practices, although supported by religion, proved ineffective in promoting
high ethical standards and good behavior among German youth.
Further, Nazi Germany's soldiers wore belt buckles inscribed "Gott mitt uns"
("God is with us"). This slogan sounds eerily similar to Ohio's present
motto, "With God, all things are possible."
Like many tyrants both past and present, Hitler used the mantle of religion
to justify and further his selfish, hateful, and destructive philosophy. By
conditioning people to blindly accept the pronouncements of authorities,
instead of teaching them to think for themselves, religions often make it
easy for such evil dictators and demagogues to succeed.
William Coleman (ramashiva)

_______________________________________________________________
* New Release: RecPoker.com v2.2 - http://www.recpoker.com

[Octo]

Post by bub
and susan applies da bitch slap soundly..WHACK

Well I guess atheism will have to live with the small consolation that it
happens to be true.

[Paul Gee]

Post by Octo

Post by bub
and susan applies da bitch slap soundly..WHACK

Well I guess atheism will have to live with the small consolation that it
happens to be true.

What's true? You're replying to bub's reply to Susan. I'm trying to figure
out what you're talking about? What's true? Hitler was an atheist? Hitler
wasn't an atheist? Uh, it's true there is no God? Just what are you
saying, Octo? I know I'm slow. Be patient with me.

[Irish Mike]

"Well I guess atheism will have to live with the small consolation that it
happens to be true."

Look at it this way bucko. If those of us who believed in God all our lives
are wrong, and He doesn't exist, we've still had a better life because our
faith gave us hope and comfort. On the other hand, if atheists are wrong
and there is a God, they're screwed. So, the best an atheist can hope for
is ...nothing.

Irish Mike

Post by Octo

Post by bub
and susan applies da bitch slap soundly..WHACK

Well I guess atheism will have to live with the small consolation that it
happens to be true.

[Paul Gee]

Post by Irish Mike
"Well I guess atheism will have to live with the small consolation that it
happens to be true."
Look at it this way bucko. If those of us who believed in God all our lives
are wrong, and He doesn't exist, we've still had a better life because our
faith gave us hope and comfort. On the other hand, if atheists are wrong
and there is a God, they're screwed. So, the best an atheist can hope for
is ...nothing.
Irish Mike

I share that sentiment. People who believe in God, who recognize the beauty
and miracle of His work, are like the proverbial glass-is-half-full people.
The atheists are, in my opinion, empty and shallow. Like Mike said, the
best they can hope for is....nothing. They believe in nothing, except their
own arrogance.

[Octo]

Post by Irish Mike
"Well I guess atheism will have to live with the small consolation that it
happens to be true."
Look at it this way bucko. If those of us who believed in God all our

lives

Post by Irish Mike
are wrong, and He doesn't exist, we've still had a better life because our
faith gave us hope and comfort. On the other hand, if atheists are wrong
and there is a God, they're screwed. So, the best an atheist can hope for
is ...nothing.
Irish Mike

Hey bucko, that argument was transparently weak when it was invented 5
centuries ago. The question of whether God exists is quite indepedent of
your self-serving strategizing.

Besides, do you think if there were a God he would really accept a nominal
faith based only on the desire to cover your ass? (Actually you're probably
a Catholic so maybe you do think that.)

And Paul G. - lighten up, I was making a joke in my original post. I am in
fact an atheist, but unlike you I do not have a fanatical turn of mind, so I
do not delude myself into thinking that it is obvious that there is no God.
I leave the omniscience to you, whether it be Communism, religious
anti-Communism, or whatever ideology next captures your fancy.

[Paul Gee]

Post by Octo
I leave the omniscience to you, whether it be Communism,

I know you know all about communism, Octo. Watching PBS. Right?

[Irish Mike]

"Hey bucko, that argument was transparently weak when it was invented 5
centuries ago."

It was not invented and it exists because it is true.

Irish Mike

Post by Octo

Post by Irish Mike
"Well I guess atheism will have to live with the small consolation that it
happens to be true."
Look at it this way bucko. If those of us who believed in God all our

lives

Post by Irish Mike
are wrong, and He doesn't exist, we've still had a better life because our
faith gave us hope and comfort. On the other hand, if atheists are wrong
and there is a God, they're screwed. So, the best an atheist can hope for
is ...nothing.
Irish Mike

Hey bucko, that argument was transparently weak when it was invented 5
centuries ago. The question of whether God exists is quite indepedent of
your self-serving strategizing.
Besides, do you think if there were a God he would really accept a nominal
faith based only on the desire to cover your ass? (Actually you're
probably a Catholic so maybe you do think that.)
And Paul G. - lighten up, I was making a joke in my original post. I am in
fact an atheist, but unlike you I do not have a fanatical turn of mind, so
I do not delude myself into thinking that it is obvious that there is no
God. I leave the omniscience to you, whether it be Communism, religious
anti-Communism, or whatever ideology next captures your fancy.

[Bob]

Irish Mike believes:

"Look at it this way bucko. If those of us who believed in God all our
lives are wrong, and He doesn't exist, we've still had a better life
because our faith gave us hope and comfort."

Hmm... by that argument, you should still believe in Santa Claus and
the Tooth Fairy. I don't need any hope & comfort from imaginary beings
to make my life worthwhile, thank you very much.

"On the other hand, if atheists are wrong and there is a God, they're
screwed. So, the best an atheist can hope for is ...nothing. "

Many people believe in a God who does not "screw" the unbelievers.
Besides, what if you are right that there is a God and wrong about
which one it is? Wouldn't it be funny if we two met again in a Muslim
Hades?

Actually, compared to the eternal torment that Catholics believe is the
destiny for most of us, I'll take "nothing" any day.

- Bob

[Paul Gee]

Post by Bob
I don't need any hope & comfort from imaginary beings
to make my life worthwhile, thank you very much.

Ha! Our very existence is unbelievable. Yet we do exist.

It's the cockiness and arrogance of you people that makes me laugh. Too
"smart" to believe in God. You people are so sure of....nothing.

[Irish Mike]

"I'll take "nothing" any day. "

Careful what you wish for bucko.

Irish Mike

Post by Bob
"Look at it this way bucko. If those of us who believed in God all our
lives are wrong, and He doesn't exist, we've still had a better life
because our faith gave us hope and comfort."
Hmm... by that argument, you should still believe in Santa Claus and
the Tooth Fairy. I don't need any hope & comfort from imaginary beings
to make my life worthwhile, thank you very much.
"On the other hand, if atheists are wrong and there is a God, they're
screwed. So, the best an atheist can hope for is ...nothing. "
Many people believe in a God who does not "screw" the unbelievers.
Besides, what if you are right that there is a God and wrong about
which one it is? Wouldn't it be funny if we two met again in a Muslim
Hades?
Actually, compared to the eternal torment that Catholics believe is the
destiny for most of us, I'll take "nothing" any day.
- Bob

[Bob]

I said:

"I'll take "nothing" any day. "

and Irish Mike said:

"Careful what you wish for bucko."

It doesn't matter what either of us wish for, Mike. When we die it's
over. The idea that our souls live on forever in a magical afterlife
was never anything but the wishful thinking of people who are afraid to
die.

- Bob

[Paul Gee]

Post by Bob
It doesn't matter what either of us wish for, Mike. When we die it's
over. The idea that our souls live on forever in a magical afterlife
was never anything but the wishful thinking of people who are afraid to
die.
- Bob

I know I can't prove it, not even to myself let alone to anyone else, but
I'm going to guess that there's something more to me than just skin and
bones. Man has emotions. Man has a conscience. Man, has a soul.

It doesn't fit "logically". But like I said earlier, my very existence is
unbelievable. My very existence doesn't fit "logically" either. Yet I do
exist.

As sure as you are that there is no soul, I am equally convinced that there
is a soul. In fact, each one of those little babies that I keep saying
should not be aborted, each one of them has a soul, sometime around the
point of conception. That's why I say that it's murder.

The glass is half full. And life is precious. And God is good.

-Paul Gee

[Bob]

Paul Gee said:

"I know I can't prove it, not even to myself let alone to anyone else,
but I'm going to guess that there's something more to me than just skin
and bones. Man has emotions. Man has a conscience. Man, has a soul."

I agree with all of the above except the "soul" part, if by "soul" you
mean something that survives after our bodies die. We are remarkable
beings, and we don't need to imagine a creator or an afterlife to be
remarkable.

"It doesn't fit "logically". But like I said earlier, my very
existence is unbelievable. My very existence doesn't fit "logically"
either. Yet I do exist. "

Yes, you do. Sadly, after you die you will no longer exist.

"As sure as you are that there is no soul, I am equally convinced that
there is a soul. In fact, each one of those little babies that I keep
saying should not be aborted, each one of them has a soul, sometime
around the point of conception. That's why I say that it's murder.

"The glass is half full. And life is precious. And God is good."

Life is indeed precious - especially so because we are mortal.

- Bob

[Irish Mike]

"When we die it's over. "

The thing that amuses me about atheists is that you claim God doesn't exist
and that you have no future or hope beyond the very brief time you live on
earth. And yet, you spend that time arguing with, and ridiculing, those of
us who do believe. I mean, you waste the little time you have attacking
something that (you claim) doesn't exist. No offense bucko but that sounds
incredibly stupid.

Irish Mike

Post by Irish Mike
"I'll take "nothing" any day. "
"Careful what you wish for bucko."
It doesn't matter what either of us wish for, Mike. When we die it's
over. The idea that our souls live on forever in a magical afterlife
was never anything but the wishful thinking of people who are afraid to
die.
- Bob

[Bob]

Irish Mike is amused:

"The thing that amuses me about atheists is that you claim God doesn't
exist and that you have no future or hope beyond the very brief time
you live on earth. And yet, you spend that time arguing with, and
ridiculing, those of us who do believe. I mean, you waste the little
time you have attacking something that (you claim) doesn't exist. No
offense bucko but that sounds incredibly stupid. "

Yes, I should be finding a cure for cancer while I play poker in the
other window, this is a terrible waste of my time. Seriously, I don't
get this argument - surely God has better things in mind for you
Catholics than arguing about politics on a poker group? Are you
saying that you can waste time here on Earth because you'll have all
eternity in Heaven? How absurd.

- Bob

[Irish Mike]

"surely God has better things in mind for you Catholics than arguing about
politics on a poker group? "

First, this is religion not politics and second, how would you know what God
wants since you claim He doesn't exist. Here's the difference Bob. I don't
believe in UFOs so I don't waste my time arguing with those that do. You
don't believe in God but you spend your time attacking and ridiculing those
who do. It just seems stupid that you atheists spend all your time and
energy attacking something that you claim doesn't exist.

Irish Mike

Post by Bob
"The thing that amuses me about atheists is that you claim God doesn't
exist and that you have no future or hope beyond the very brief time
you live on earth. And yet, you spend that time arguing with, and
ridiculing, those of us who do believe. I mean, you waste the little
time you have attacking something that (you claim) doesn't exist. No
offense bucko but that sounds incredibly stupid. "
Yes, I should be finding a cure for cancer while I play poker in the
other window, this is a terrible waste of my time. Seriously, I don't
get this argument - surely God has better things in mind for you
Catholics than arguing about politics on a poker group? Are you
saying that you can waste time here on Earth because you'll have all
eternity in Heaven? How absurd.
- Bob

[Bob]

I said:

"surely God has better things in mind for you Catholics than arguing
about politics on a poker group? "

and Irish Mike retorted:

"First, this is religion not politics and second, how would you know
what God wants since you claim He doesn't exist."

I guess my irony was too subtle for you. Of course I don't believe in
God - but you do. I was teasing you about your choice of forums in
which to glorify your God.

" Here's the difference Bob. I don't believe in UFOs so I don't waste
my time arguing with those that do. "

Well, as I mentioned before I am hardly "wasting my time" by posting
here, since I do it between poker hands. I like to argue with people.
If some guy who believed in UFO's started posting here I would argue
with him, too.

"You don't believe in God but you spend your time attacking and
ridiculing those who do. It just seems stupid that you atheists spend
all your time and energy attacking something that you claim doesn't
exist. "

I don't believe that God exists, but people who believe in God have a
lot of power in this country. Haven't you noticed that radical
fundamentalists have taken power in our country? Have you seen some of
the idiotic laws they make?

"Don't research stem cells - it's against God's plan"
"Don't let gay people get married - it's against God's plan"
"Don't teach teenagers about birth control - it's against God's plan"
"Don't teach evolution in schools - teach creationism instead"

I want to live in a secular America, not some fundamentalist theocracy.
I believe in the separation of church and state. It frightens me that
some of the most powerful people in this country seem to believe in the
literal truth of Genesis.

- Bob

[Irish Mike]

"Have you seen some of the idiotic laws they make?"

Idiotic laws abound and the religious right certainly holds no monopoly on
them. In fact, I find many of the things the lunatic liberal left tries to
cram down out throats equally absurd and a hell of a lot more dangerous.
In any case Bob, why do you care? You are your own supreme being - the
embodiment of the higher power. You have no moral or spiritual
accountability - in this life or the next - since you don't believe it
exists. In fact, by your belief, nothing exists beyond your death but an
empty, dark, meaningless void. Well not to worry bucko, it'll all be over
in fifteen or twenty years, assuming you don't get hit by a bus on the way
to an atheists convention.

Irish Mike

Post by Irish Mike
"surely God has better things in mind for you Catholics than arguing
about politics on a poker group? "
"First, this is religion not politics and second, how would you know
what God wants since you claim He doesn't exist."
I guess my irony was too subtle for you. Of course I don't believe in
God - but you do. I was teasing you about your choice of forums in
which to glorify your God.
" Here's the difference Bob. I don't believe in UFOs so I don't waste
my time arguing with those that do. "
Well, as I mentioned before I am hardly "wasting my time" by posting
here, since I do it between poker hands. I like to argue with people.
If some guy who believed in UFO's started posting here I would argue
with him, too.
"You don't believe in God but you spend your time attacking and
ridiculing those who do. It just seems stupid that you atheists spend
all your time and energy attacking something that you claim doesn't
exist. "
I don't believe that God exists, but people who believe in God have a
lot of power in this country. Haven't you noticed that radical
fundamentalists have taken power in our country? Have you seen some of
the idiotic laws they make?
"Don't research stem cells - it's against God's plan"
"Don't let gay people get married - it's against God's plan"
"Don't teach teenagers about birth control - it's against God's plan"
"Don't teach evolution in schools - teach creationism instead"
I want to live in a secular America, not some fundamentalist theocracy.
I believe in the separation of church and state. It frightens me that
some of the most powerful people in this country seem to believe in the
literal truth of Genesis.
- Bob

[RazzO]

I take it you don't believe the Mayan and Hopi predictions? 12-21-12??

Post by Irish Mike
in fifteen or twenty years, assuming you don't get hit by a bus on the way
to an atheists convention.

RazzO
http://www.razzo.com
email:***@yahoo.com
______________________
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SKINSPOKER.COM, .NET
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[Bob]

Irish Mike said:

"Idiotic laws abound and the religious right certainly holds no
monopoly on them. In fact, I find many of the things the lunatic
liberal left tries to cram down out throats equally absurd and a hell
of a lot more dangerous."

You're right, the religious right is not the only group that makes
stupid laws. However, in this country right now, they have a lot of
power, and there are far more stupid right-wing laws being passed than
stupid left-wing ones.

"In any case Bob, why do you care? You are your own supreme being -
the embodiment of the higher power."

There is no "higher power" - I am just a human, like all of us, and
none of us are "supreme beings".

"You have no moral or spiritual accountability - in this life or the
next - since you don't believe it exists. In fact, by your belief,
nothing exists beyond your death but an
empty, dark, meaningless void."

Of course I have moral accountability! Just because I don't believe
that Yahweh will punish me with eternal damnation does not mean that I
don't know right from wrong. You sound like a kid who learns there is
no Santa Claus, and decides he no longer needs to be a good boy.

" Well not to worry bucko, it'll all be over in fifteen or twenty
years, assuming you don't get hit by a bus on the way to an atheists
convention. "

Not me, I don't like conventions. I am in danger of being hit by a bus
on the way to a _casino_, though - that's why I play poker online ;-}

- Bob

[mo_charles]

Post by Bob
"Idiotic laws abound and the religious right certainly holds no
monopoly on them. In fact, I find many of the things the lunatic
liberal left tries to cram down out throats equally absurd and a hell
of a lot more dangerous."
You're right, the religious right is not the only group that makes
stupid laws. However, in this country right now, they have a lot of
power, and there are far more stupid right-wing laws being passed than
stupid left-wing ones.

just name a couple, bob.

mo_charles

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[Bob]

I said:

"> You're right, the religious right is not the only group that makes

Post by Bob
stupid laws. However, in this country right now, they have a lot of
power, and there are far more stupid right-wing laws being passed than
stupid left-wing ones.

and mo_charles inquired:

"just name a couple, bob."

Much of what I object to in recent American government policy is,
strictly speaking, executive branch policy and not legislation:

* Weakened protection for the environment. In particular, I object to
the Bush administration tactic of placing an industry lobbyist in
charge of the government department that works with that industry.

* The restriction of stem-cell research.

* The religious right has had a huge impact on population policy
world-wide. Instead of providing condoms to prevent the spread of
diseased, they prefer to hand out pamphlets.

* "Abstinence" programs instead of actual sex education in public
schools.

* The teaching of superstition ("Intelligent Design" in place of
science in our schools.

* The huge reduction in taxes for the wealthy, especially on un-earned
income like capital gains and inheritance.

* The promotion of "faith-based" charity, etc. at the expense of
secular organizations.

* The constant chipping away at the separation of church and state.

If you haven't noticed that the religious right has gained a lot of
power during the Bush administration, you haven't been paying
attention.

- Bob

[mo_charles]

Post by Bob

Post by Bob
You're right, the religious right is not the only group that makes
stupid laws. However, in this country right now, they have a lot of
power, and there are far more stupid right-wing laws being passed than
stupid left-wing ones.

"just name a couple, bob."
Much of what I object to in recent American government policy is,
* Weakened protection for the environment. In particular, I object to
the Bush administration tactic of placing an industry lobbyist in
charge of the government department that works with that industry.
* The restriction of stem-cell research.
* The religious right has had a huge impact on population policy
world-wide. Instead of providing condoms to prevent the spread of
diseased, they prefer to hand out pamphlets.
* "Abstinence" programs instead of actual sex education in public
schools.
* The teaching of superstition ("Intelligent Design" in place of
science in our schools.
* The huge reduction in taxes for the wealthy, especially on un-earned
income like capital gains and inheritance.
* The promotion of "faith-based" charity, etc. at the expense of
secular organizations.
* The constant chipping away at the separation of church and state.
If you haven't noticed that the religious right has gained a lot of
power during the Bush administration, you haven't been paying
attention.

so you've found no "stupid right-wing laws being passed"?

i don't get the paranoia. nobody i know wants church and state united -
nobody i know wants sex ed to be entirely abstinence - nobody i know wants
science texts replaced by genesis - evironmental laws are stronger today
than they've ever been AND getting stronger. why would the extreme
leftwing try to convince you something exists in strength when it doesn't?


mo_charles

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[Bob]

mo_charles is mistaken about several things:

"i don't get the paranoia. nobody i know wants church and state
united"

"United"? Perhaps not - but there are many who think that religion
should be _part_ of the American political system. Haven't you
noticed the battles over the Ten Commandments being posted in
courtrooms, etc.?

"nobody i know wants sex ed to be entirely abstinence"

It only took a short search on "abstinence education" to determine that
the Bush administration and other Republicans truly believe in it. I
have pasted an article on the subject at the end of this post.

"science texts replaced by genesis"

See current news for the Dover, PA school district and recent news for
the state of Kansas. At present, most of the ID effort seems to be
getting ID taught _in addition to_ evolution in schools, but that's
just a start.

" - evironmental laws are stronger today than they've ever been AND
getting stronger."

Very funny - did you really believe that the "Clear Skies Initiative"
was about improving air quality? Ha! Ha! Ha! In any case, the Bush
admin has gutted enforcement of the laws that we do have by placing
industry lobbyists in positions of authority over their own industries.

"why would the extreme leftwing try to convince you something exists in
strength when it doesn't?"

Why does the extreme right wing try to convince you something does not
exist when it clearly does?

- Bob

http://democrats.reform.house.gov/features/politics_and_science/example_abstinence.htm

The Effectiveness of Abstinence-Only Education

The Administration has changed sex education performance measures to
produce the appearance that scientific evidence supports
abstinence-only programs.

President Bush has consistently supported the view that sex education
should teach "abstinence only" and not include information on other
ways to avoid sexually transmitted diseases and pregnancy.[1] White
House Spokesperson Ari Fleischer has asserted that "abstinence is
more than sound science, it's a sound practice . . . . [A]bstinence
has a proven track record of working."[2]

In pushing an "abstinence only" agenda, however, the Bush
Administration has consistently distorted the scientific evidence about
what works in sex education. Administration officials have never
acknowledged that abstinence-only programs have not been proven to
reduce sexual activity, teen pregnancy or sexually transmitted
disease.[3] Instead, HHS has changed performance measures for
abstinence-only education to make the programs appear successful,
censored information on effective sex education programs, and appointed
to a key panel an abstinence-only proponent with dubious credentials.

Performance Measures
Over the past three years, Congress has appropriated over $100 million
in grants to organizations that sponsor abstinence-only education. In
November 2000, under the Clinton Administration, HHS developed
meaningful, scientifically sound outcome measures to assess whether
these programs achieved their intended purposes, including the
"proportion of program participants who have engaged in sexual
intercourse" and the birth rate of female program participants.[4]

In late 2001, however, the Bush Administration dropped these measures
and replaced them with a set of standards that does not include any
real outcomes. Rather than tracking pregnancy or sexual activity, these
measures assess attendance and the attitudes of teens at the end of the
education program, including the "proportion of participants who
indicate understanding of the social, psychological, and health gains
to be realized by abstaining from premarital sexual activity."[5]

Such standards are not scientifically valid. A 2001 review of
scientific evidence concluded that "adolescents' sexual beliefs,
attitudes, and even intentions are . . . weak proxies for actual
behaviors."[6] That is, even if teens pledge to remain abstinent,
they may not actually do so. According to a major HHS-funded report,
two "hallmarks of good evaluation" in programs designed to reduce
teen pregnancy rates are evaluations that "[m]easure behaviors, not
just attitudes and beliefs" and "[c]onduct long-term follow-up (of
at least one year)."[7] However, the Bush Administration's
standards for measuring the success of abstinence-only programs contain
no reports or assessments of actual behavior or health outcomes and do
not require any minimum followup period.

The result is that the performance measures appear constructed to
produce the appearance that scientific evidence supports
abstinence-only programs when, in fact, the best evidence does not.

"Programs That Work"
Until recently, a CDC initiative called "Programs That Work"
identified sex education programs that have been found to be effective
in scientific studies and provided this information through its web
site to interested communities.[8]

In 2002, all five "Programs That Work" provided comprehensive sex
education to teenagers, and none were "abstinence-only."

In the last year, and without scientific justification, CDC has ended
this initiative and erased information about these proven sex education
programs from its web site.[9]

Appointment to CDC Committee
The Bush Administration appointed a prominent advocate of
abstinence-only programs, Dr. Joe McIlhaney, to the Advisory Committee
to the CDC's Director. This committee is charged with providing
advice on "policy issues and broad strategies for promoting health
and quality of life by preventing and controlling disease, injury and
disability."[10] Dr. McIlhaney was appointed to this prestigious
position despite the fact that in 1995 the Texas Commissioner of Health
under then-Governor George W. Bush questioned his professional
credibility, writing:

[M]any of the items in [Dr. McIlhaney's] presentation [on sexually
transmitted diseases] are misleading and are quoted incompletely . . .
. The only data which was reported in the presentation are those which
supported his bias on the topics he addressed. Intellectual honesty
demands that he present all the data.[11]

As recently as April 2002, Dr. McIlhaney asserted in congressional
testimony that "there is precious little evidence" that
comprehensive sexual education programs are "successful at
all."[12] This assertion, however, is inaccurate. A 2001 review found
that comprehensive sex education programs that both encourage
abstinence and provide information on contraception have been shown in
scientific studies to delay the onset of sexual activity and can result
in greater use of potentially life-saving condoms and other
contraceptives.[13]

[1] See, e.g., White House, President Discusses Welfare Reform and Job
Training (Feb. 27, 2002) (online at
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/02/
print/20020227-5.html).

[2] White House, Press Briefing by Ari Fleischer (Jan. 27, 2003)
(online at http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/
01/20030127-2.html).

[3] D. Kirby, National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy, Emerging
Answers: Research Findings on Programs to Reduce Teen Pregnancy, at 88
(May 2001) ("[T]here do not currently exist any abstinence-only
programs with reasonably strong evidence that they actually delay the
initiation of sex or reduce its frequency").

[4] 65 Federal Register 69562-65 (Nov. 17, 2000).

[5] These new measures are:

· Proportion of program participants who successfully complete or
remain enrolled in an abstinence-only education program.

· Proportion of adolescents who understand that abstinence from sexual
activity is the only certain way to avoid out-of-wedlock pregnancy and
sexually transmitted disease.

· Proportion of adolescents who indicate understanding of the social,
psychological, and health gains to be realized by abstaining from
premarital sexual activity.

· Proportion of participants who report they have refusal or
assertiveness skills necessary to resist sexual urges and advances.

· Proportion of youth who commit to abstain from sexual activity until
marriage.

· Proportion of participants who intend to avoid situations and risk,
such as drug use and alcohol consumption, which make them more
vulnerable to sexual advances and urges.

U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, SPRANS Community-Based
Abstinence Education Program, Pre-Application Workshop (Dec. 2002)
(online at http://www.mchb.hrsa.gov/programs/adolescents/
abedguidetext.htm).

[6] D. Kirby, supra note 3, at 78.

[7] National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy, Get Organized: A Guide
to Preventing Teen Pregnancy, 136 (Sept. 1999) (online at
http://www.teenpregnancy.org/resources/reading/getorgan.asp).

[8] CDC, Programs That Work (archived version online at
http://web.archive.org/web/20010606142729/
www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dash/rtc/index.htm).

[9] CDC, Programs That Work (online at
http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dash/rtc/) ("Thank you for your interest
in Programs that Work (PTW). The CDC has discontinued PTW and is
considering a new process that is more responsive to changing needs and
concerns of state and local education and health agencies and community
organizations").

[10] CDC, Secretary Thompson Appoints Nine to CDC Advisory Committee
(Feb. 20, 2003) (online at
http://www.cdc.gov/od/oc/media/pressrel/r030220d.htm).

[11] Letter from Dr. David R. Smith, Commissioner of Health, to Mr. Tom
E. Smith, Executive Director, Medical Institute for Sexual Health (Jan.
23, 1995).

[12] Testimony of Dr. Joe S. McIlhaney, Jr., Subcommittee on Health,
Committee on Energy and Commerce, Welfare Reform: A Review of
Abstinence Education and Transitional Medical Assistance, 107th Cong.,
51 (Apr. 23, 2002).

[13] D. Kirby, supra note 3, at 171 ("[A] number of programs that
discussed condoms or other forms of contraception and encouraged their
use among sexually active youth also delayed or reduced the frequency
of sexual intercourse").

[Irish Mike]

"The huge reduction in taxes for the wealthy, especially on un-earned
income like capital gains and inheritance.'

Sorry to interrupt your rant Bob but fact is, the wealthiest 10% of
Americans currently pay 90% of all income tax.

Irish Mike

Post by Bob
"> You're right, the religious right is not the only group that makes

Post by Bob
stupid laws. However, in this country right now, they have a lot of
power, and there are far more stupid right-wing laws being passed than
stupid left-wing ones.

"just name a couple, bob."
Much of what I object to in recent American government policy is,
* Weakened protection for the environment. In particular, I object to
the Bush administration tactic of placing an industry lobbyist in
charge of the government department that works with that industry.
* The restriction of stem-cell research.
* The religious right has had a huge impact on population policy
world-wide. Instead of providing condoms to prevent the spread of
diseased, they prefer to hand out pamphlets.
* "Abstinence" programs instead of actual sex education in public
schools.
* The teaching of superstition ("Intelligent Design" in place of
science in our schools.
* The huge reduction in taxes for the wealthy, especially on un-earned
income like capital gains and inheritance.
* The promotion of "faith-based" charity, etc. at the expense of
secular organizations.
* The constant chipping away at the separation of church and state.
If you haven't noticed that the religious right has gained a lot of
power during the Bush administration, you haven't been paying
attention.
- Bob

[Rich Shipley]

Post by Irish Mike
"The huge reduction in taxes for the wealthy, especially on un-earned
income like capital gains and inheritance.'
Sorry to interrupt your rant Bob but fact is, the wealthiest 10% of
Americans currently pay 90% of all income tax.

Try again:

http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

Rich

[Irish Mike]

"Of course I have moral accountability!"

Why, and to whom are you morally accountable Bob? If there is no God, the
ten commandments and the moral teachings of Christ have no meaning for you.
Your life will never be judged because you are your own God. By your
admission there is no "higher power" higher than you.

You may feel a legal accountability to obey laws issued by the government
because there are consequences when you do not obey government laws. But how
can you be morally accountable to something you claim doesn't exist? How
can there be accountability without consequences? I'm beginning to suspect
you a very confused fellow.

Irish Mike

Post by Bob
"Idiotic laws abound and the religious right certainly holds no
monopoly on them. In fact, I find many of the things the lunatic
liberal left tries to cram down out throats equally absurd and a hell
of a lot more dangerous."
You're right, the religious right is not the only group that makes
stupid laws. However, in this country right now, they have a lot of
power, and there are far more stupid right-wing laws being passed than
stupid left-wing ones.
"In any case Bob, why do you care? You are your own supreme being -
the embodiment of the higher power."
There is no "higher power" - I am just a human, like all of us, and
none of us are "supreme beings".
"You have no moral or spiritual accountability - in this life or the
next - since you don't believe it exists. In fact, by your belief,
nothing exists beyond your death but an
empty, dark, meaningless void."
Of course I have moral accountability! Just because I don't believe
that Yahweh will punish me with eternal damnation does not mean that I
don't know right from wrong. You sound like a kid who learns there is
no Santa Claus, and decides he no longer needs to be a good boy.
" Well not to worry bucko, it'll all be over in fifteen or twenty
years, assuming you don't get hit by a bus on the way to an atheists
convention. "
Not me, I don't like conventions. I am in danger of being hit by a bus
on the way to a _casino_, though - that's why I play poker online ;-}
- Bob

[Bob]

I said:

"Of course I have moral accountability!"

and Irish Mike replied:

"Why, and to whom are you morally accountable Bob?"

I am morally accountable to myself and to my fellow humans - just like
you.

"If there is no God, the ten commandments and the moral teachings of
Christ have no meaning for you."

They do have meaning for me - as important historical statements about
morality. Most of the ten commandments have to do with the proper
worship of the correct God, anyway. "Thou shalt make no graven images"
does not seem like useful advice to a 20th Century atheist, but "Honor
Thy Mother and Father" is good advice.

"Your life will never be judged because you are your own God. By your
admission there is no "higher power" higher than you. "

My life will be judged by my fellow humans, just like yours.

"You may feel a legal accountability to obey laws issued by the
government because there are consequences when you do not obey
government laws. But how can you be morally accountable to something
you claim doesn't exist? How can there be accountability without
consequences?"
I am morally accountable to myself and to my fellow humans. I am not
accountable to Allah, Santa Claus, Zeus, Jehovah or the Easter Bunny
because they are all imaginary beings.

"I'm beginning to suspect you a very confused fellow."

Do you think that everyone who disagrees with you is "confused"? My
position is completely consistent: I don't believe in any supernatural
entities. I am aware that most of my fellow humans _do_ believe in the
supernatural, but I believe you are all mistaken.

- Bob

[garycarson]

Post by Irish Mike
"Well I guess atheism will have to live with the small consolation that it
happens to be true."
Look at it this way bucko. If those of us who believed in God all our lives
are wrong, and He doesn't exist, we've still had a better life because our
faith gave us hope and comfort. On the other hand, if atheists are wrong
and there is a God, they're screwed. So, the best an atheist can hope for
is ...nothing.

Not at all.

I'm not an atheist. I believe in God. It's just not the same one you
believe in, it's not a God that approves of men sexually exploiting
young boys.

If the athesits are wrong, and you're right. Then the atheists might
well be screwed.

But, if the atheists are wrong, and I'm right, then the atheists are
doing just fine and have lived a much richer, fuller life than you
have.

Gary Carson
www.garycarson.com

[Paul Gee]

Post by garycarson
then the atheists are
doing just fine and have lived a much richer, fuller life than you
have.

Richer and fuller? What is that? I'd love to hear this one. Just
speaking hypothetically here, not from personal experience necessarily, but
how can one have any fuller and richer life than one in which he has a close
relationship with the Creator of the freakin universe?

And just what do atheists enjoy that a believer in God doesn't necessarily
do?

[garycarson]

Post by Paul Gee

Post by garycarson
then the atheists are
doing just fine and have lived a much richer, fuller life than you
have.

Richer and fuller? What is that? I'd love to hear this one. Just
speaking hypothetically here, not from personal experience necessarily, but
how can one have any fuller and richer life than one in which he has a close
relationship with the Creator of the freakin universe?
And just what do atheists enjoy that a believer in God doesn't necessarily
do?

Living the real world as opposed to a fantasy world full of fear of
that angry God of Micks.

This guy is so afraid of offending God that he tolerates the abuse of
children by the Church.

Gary Carson
www.garycarson.com

[Paul Gee]

Post by garycarson
Living the real world as opposed to a fantasy world full of fear of
that angry God of Micks.
This guy is so afraid of offending God that he tolerates the abuse of
children by the Church.

That is really unfair and a lousy thing for you to say.

[Paul Gee]

Camilo Torres Restrepo 1929-1966

Presbítero católico colombiano, prototipo del cura guerrillero y pionero de
la teología de la liberación, este sacerdote fue adalid de esa estrategia
triunfante que permitió a la Iglesia de Roma neutralizar en América los
componentes materialistas y ateos de la izquierda revolucionaria de quinta
generación, mediante la infiltración y el empeño en «bautizar» hasta el
guevarismo, en los años previos a la descomposición final de la Unión
Soviética, asegurando así la continuidad y el vigor de la presencia
cristiana y católica en las democracias capitalistas hispanoamericanas tras
el freno a la expansión de la «revolución latinoamericana». Como algunos
revolucionarios marxistas vieron en Camilo Torres un táctico compañero de
viaje, no es de extrañar que todavía hoy cierta izquierda extravagante le
guarde alta consideración, reconocimiento que no se ha hecho público aún
dentro de la propia organización clerical a la que sirvió (que ni siquiera
le tiene abierta causa de beatificación).

http://www.filosofia.org/ave/001/a230.htm

http://www.marxists.org/espanol/camilo/biografia.htm

http://www.argenpres.info/perfil.asp?num=000057



"William Coleman" <***@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:nLG6f.409$***@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

[Paul Gee]

Post by William Coleman

Post by Irish Mike
What religion were Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot Mao and Saddam? Biggest mass
murderers in the history of this planet and not a Catholic in the bunch.
Given the body count of the Nazis and Communists you would have to
conclude that the biggest murderers on the planet are atheists.
Irish Mike
[Catholic and damn proud of it.]

First of all, Hitler's body count doesn't even come close to the 100 million
the Catholic Church has murdered for the crime of rejecting Catholic
doctrine.

Wilhelm Kuhlmann speaking of "body counts"?

Here's a body count. Below are the numbers of abortions in the United
States since 1973. The statistics also show that 88% of these abortions
were performed during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. Gee, let me see if
my math is correct. Does that mean that 12% were performed LATER than 12
weeks? Well, so much for that nonsense about it just being a "blob of
cells" that so many here talked about in recent threads about abortion.

Heartless people like Wilhelm Kuhlmann and Gary Carson are big on bringing
up the supposed excesses of the Catholic Church and any other symbol of
Christianity, but fall a little short in their concern over the holocaust
otherwise known as abortion and the holocaust committed by their communist
heroes. What phonies!

---------------------------------
Approximate number of abortions in the U.S. per year (based on assumptions
by the Alan Guttmacher Institute).

1996 - 1,365,700
1995 - 1,363,700
1994 - 1,431,000
1993 - 1,500,000
1992 - 1,528,900
1991 - 1,556,500
1990 - 1,608,600
1989 - 1,566,900
1988 - 1,590,800
1987 - 1,559,100
1986 - 1,574,000
1985 - 1,588,600
1984 - 1,577,200
1983 - 1,575,000
1982 - 1,573,900
1981 - 1,577,300
1980 - 1,553,900
1979 - 1,497,700
1978 - 1,409,600
1977 - 1,316,700
1976 - 1,179,300
1975 - 1,034,200
1974 - 898,600
1973 - 774,600

[torx]

nice nice propaganda there
hitler was catholic

but it's not like saddam was atheist ?
hi ? fucking idiot

so all the murderers and rapists you have over in america are atheists ?
that's news to me
so all the priests that rape kids are atheists ? better not let them know

you, sir, are a moron

Post by Irish Mike
What religion were Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot Mao and Saddam? Biggest mass
murderers in the history of this planet and not a Catholic in the bunch.
Given the body count of the Nazis and Communists you would have to conclude
that the biggest murderers on the planet are atheists.
Irish Mike
[Catholic and damn proud of it.]

Post by Jet Pot
Which has destroyed more lives?
A) Hitler's Germany
B) The Catholic Church
Just wondering.

-Alexander Knopf
https://secure.pokerchamps.com/pokerpublic/arequest?acode=TORX

----- 
RecGroups : the community-oriented newsreader : www.recgroups.com

[Michael Harrington]

Joe Stalin was born a Catholic. Trained in a seminary for the priesthood
for several years in Georgia. Hitler was also a Catholic. Not sure about
Pol Pot but at least you were right about Saddam!

Post by Irish Mike
What religion were Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot Mao and Saddam? Biggest mass
murderers in the history of this planet and not a Catholic in the bunch.
Given the body count of the Nazis and Communists you would have to
conclude that the biggest murderers on the planet are atheists.
Irish Mike
[Catholic and damn proud of it.]

Post by Jet Pot
Which has destroyed more lives?
A) Hitler's Germany
B) The Catholic Church
Just wondering.

[torx]

saddam still isn't atheist

Post by Michael Harrington
Joe Stalin was born a Catholic. Trained in a seminary for the priesthood
for several years in Georgia. Hitler was also a Catholic. Not sure about
Pol Pot but at least you were right about Saddam!

Post by Irish Mike
What religion were Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot Mao and Saddam? Biggest mass
murderers in the history of this planet and not a Catholic in the bunch.
Given the body count of the Nazis and Communists you would have to
conclude that the biggest murderers on the planet are atheists.
Irish Mike
[Catholic and damn proud of it.]

Post by Jet Pot
Which has destroyed more lives?
A) Hitler's Germany
B) The Catholic Church
Just wondering.

-Alexander Knopf
https://secure.pokerchamps.com/pokerpublic/arequest?acode=TORX

------ 
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[Mike McCann]

Pol Pot, Catholic school educated, figures.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/78988.stm

Post by Michael Harrington
Joe Stalin was born a Catholic. Trained in a seminary for the priesthood
for several years in Georgia. Hitler was also a Catholic. Not sure about
Pol Pot but at least you were right about Saddam!

Post by Irish Mike
What religion were Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot Mao and Saddam? Biggest mass
murderers in the history of this planet and not a Catholic in the bunch.
Given the body count of the Nazis and Communists you would have to
conclude that the biggest murderers on the planet are atheists.
Irish Mike
[Catholic and damn proud of it.]

Pol Pot, Catholic school educated, figures.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/78988.stm

[Paul Gee]

Post by Mike McCann
Pol Pot, Catholic school educated, figures.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/78988.stm

The article you link, says that he "devoted his time to radical student
politics and Marxism" at a school in Paris on scholarship after being
formerly educated in a "Buddhist Monastery and Roman Catholic School." So
why not just condemn all the French, too, while you're at it? Of course,
that would be unfair and ridiculous.

Yet it is the militantly anti-God and soft-on-Marxism types, like some of
those in this thread such as Wilhelm Kuhlmann and Gary Carson, who will
approve of the destruction of Christianity and all that is good, and stand
idly by as our own country is swept up in the same philosophy that
influenced Pol Pot, and ushered into world government. Wilhelm Kuhlmann
himself says that world government is not to be feared and that it is merely
a natural and inevitable result of the world and technology coming closer
together. But it is not technology that is to be feared, it is evil men and
mass evil coming to power that should be feared. Technology changes with
time, but political principles are ETERNAL.

When God is taken out of American life by the likes of the ACLU, and we are
ushered into a world government under the direction of an anti-God body like
the United Nations, what will prevent another Cambodia/Khmer Rouge-type
scenario from happening on a global scale? The answer, of course, is that
nothing will stop it. In fact, it should be expected of the types who favor
world government.

Decent men do not want an end to America under God. Only the most
starry-eyed dupes, and evil megalomaniacs, would ever favor a Godless world
government. Which term best fits Wilhelm Kuhlmann and Gary Carson?

[Dragon Koi]

"Paul Gee" <paulg123[no spam]@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:HNR6f.2237$***@tornado.socal.rr.com...
| "Mike McCann" <***@cox.net> wrote in message
| news:j7R6f.16392$***@okepread04...
|
| > Pol Pot, Catholic school educated, figures.
| >
| > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/78988.stm
| >
| >
|
|
| The article you link, says that he "devoted his time to radical student
| politics and Marxism" at a school in Paris on scholarship after being
| formerly educated in a "Buddhist Monastery and Roman Catholic School." So
| why not just condemn all the French, too, while you're at it? Of course,
| that would be unfair and ridiculous.
|
| Yet it is the militantly anti-God and soft-on-Marxism types, like some of
| those in this thread such as Wilhelm Kuhlmann and Gary Carson, who will
| approve of the destruction of Christianity and all that is good, and stand
| idly by as our own country is swept up in the same philosophy that
| influenced Pol Pot, and ushered into world government. Wilhelm Kuhlmann
| himself says that world government is not to be feared and that it is
merely
| a natural and inevitable result of the world and technology coming closer
| together. But it is not technology that is to be feared, it is evil men
and
| mass evil coming to power that should be feared. Technology changes with
| time, but political principles are ETERNAL.
|
| When God is taken out of American life by the likes of the ACLU, and we
are
| ushered into a world government under the direction of an anti-God body
like
| the United Nations, what will prevent another Cambodia/Khmer Rouge-type
| scenario from happening on a global scale? The answer, of course, is that
| nothing will stop it. In fact, it should be expected of the types who
favor
| world government.
|
| Decent men do not want an end to America under God. Only the most
| starry-eyed dupes, and evil megalomaniacs, would ever favor a Godless
world
| government. Which term best fits Wilhelm Kuhlmann and Gary Carson?


So, the American founding fathers were starry-eyed dupes and evil
megalomaniacs and governments that endorse a religion are good? They got you
dude.

[Paul Gee]

Post by Dragon Koi
|
| Decent men do not want an end to America under God. Only the most
| starry-eyed dupes, and evil megalomaniacs, would ever favor a Godless
world
| government. Which term best fits Wilhelm Kuhlmann and Gary Carson?
So, the American founding fathers were starry-eyed dupes and evil
megalomaniacs and governments that endorse a religion are good? They got you
dude.

Hi Dragon Koi, Good to hear from you. I remember we exchanged dialog a few
weeks ago in a thread about abortion. I may have been a little harsh with
you. I'd like to apologize for that. Because in reading the comments you
just made, I realize now that I was probably talking with a teenager and did
not recognize that fact. So just run along, Junior.

warmest regards always,
-Paul Gee

[Dragon Koi]

"Paul Gee" <paulg123[no spam]@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:lZT6f.2184$***@tornado.socal.rr.com...
| "Dragon Koi" <***@triad.rr> wrote in message
| news:zLT6f.19075$***@twister.southeast.rr.com...
|
| > |
| > | Decent men do not want an end to America under God. Only the most
| > | starry-eyed dupes, and evil megalomaniacs, would ever favor a Godless
| > world
| > | government. Which term best fits Wilhelm Kuhlmann and Gary Carson?
| >
| >
| > So, the American founding fathers were starry-eyed dupes and evil
| > megalomaniacs and governments that endorse a religion are good? They got
| you
| > dude.
| >
| >
|
| Hi Dragon Koi, Good to hear from you. I remember we exchanged dialog a
few
| weeks ago in a thread about abortion. I may have been a little harsh with
| you. I'd like to apologize for that. Because in reading the comments you
| just made, I realize now that I was probably talking with a teenager and
did
| not recognize that fact. So just run along, Junior.
|
| warmest regards always,
| -Paul Gee

Nice recovery. As usual, you can't backup a thought. Is it because none of
them are your own? Or, just having a thought is so overwhelming that the
idea of verifying it is lost?
And, you can call me Daddy, your Mom did.

[Paul Gee]

Post by Dragon Koi
Nice recovery. As usual, you can't backup a thought. Is it because none of
them are your own? Or, just having a thought is so overwhelming that the
idea of verifying it is lost?
And, you can call me Daddy, your Mom did.

What's this? You're mother talking me?

First of all, what's even funnier than your mother and a piece of cheesecake
is the notion that you have even a clue about our founding fathers and what
they thought about religion and God.

But anyway.........

I heard your mother was so fat, when she was lost they had to use all four
sides of the milk carton.

I heard your mother was so fat, that after sex she rolls over and smokes a
ham.

I heard your mother was so ugly, that when she entered an ugly contest, they
said sorry, no professionals.

I heard your mother was so ugly, when she walks into a bank they turn OFF
the survellience cameras.

I heard your mother is so fat, when she steps on a scale it says "to be
continued."

I heard your mother went on a seafood diet. Whenever she saw food she ate
it.

I heard that your mother went to a fitness gym, and other people exercised
by jogging around her.

I heard NASA was interested in hiring her to plug up the hole in the ozone
layer.

warmest regards,
-Paul Gee

[Dragon Koi]

"Paul Gee" <paulg123[no spam]@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:v6Y6f.2840$***@tornado.socal.rr.com...
| "Dragon Koi" <***@triad.rr> wrote in message
| news:ThX6f.20503$***@twister.southeast.rr.com...
| >
| > Nice recovery. As usual, you can't backup a thought. Is it because none
of
| > them are your own? Or, just having a thought is so overwhelming that the
| > idea of verifying it is lost?
| > And, you can call me Daddy, your Mom did.
| >
| >
|
| What's this? You're mother talking me?
|
| First of all, what's even funnier than your mother and a piece of
cheesecake
| is the notion that you have even a clue about our founding fathers and
what
| they thought about religion and God.
|


The clues would be in what they wrote. Try a search for that, if you can
find time while searching for mother jokes.

[James L. Hankins]

Post by Dragon Koi
The clues would be in what they wrote. Try a search for that, if you can
find time while searching for mother jokes.

Heh...c'mon, dude, you gotta give him some props for the mother jokes. Them
was funny!

[Paul Gee's mother]

Post by James L. Hankins
Heh...c'mon, dude, you gotta give him some props for the mother jokes.
Them was funny!

I didn't think they were so funny. But I heard some lawyer jokes recently
that were hysterical.

best regards,
-Paul Gee's mother

[Paul Gee]

Post by Dragon Koi
The clues would be in what they wrote. Try a search for that,

And what writings would that be, Dragon? Where did our founding fathers say
they wanted to destroy people's belief in God? Where did they say they
wanted to give us a Godless America? Don't make me search. Just tell me.

[Dragon Koi]

"Paul Gee" <paulg123[no spam]@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:%jZ6f.2849$***@tornado.socal.rr.com...
| "Dragon Koi" <***@triad.rr> wrote in message
| news:fCY6f.21284$***@twister.southeast.rr.com...
|
| >
| > The clues would be in what they wrote. Try a search for that,
| >
|
| And what writings would that be, Dragon? Where did our founding fathers
say
| they wanted to destroy people's belief in God? Where did they say they
| wanted to give us a Godless America? Don't make me search. Just tell me.
|

I don't want to feed you for a day, you need to learn to fish.
Stick to the original question, is this is an America under God? Where did
the founding fathers say that it is?

[Paul Gee]

Post by Dragon Koi
I don't want to feed you for a day, you need to learn to fish.
Stick to the original question, is this is an America under God? Where did
the founding fathers say that it is?

The original comment was:

I said:

"Decent men do not want an end to America under God. Only the most
starry-eyed dupes, and evil megalomaniacs, would ever favor a Godless
world government."


And You said:

"So, the American founding fathers were starry-eyed dupes and evil
megalomaniacs and governments that endorse a religion are good? They got you
dude."


People back then had enough sense to recognize God's existence. It's taken
200 years of brainwashing to convince dolts like you and Gary Carson that
there is no God. In the very Declaration our founders note that man is
endowed by his Creator with unalienable rights. It's self-evident.

I made a statement, and YOU stepped in here implying that the founders
didn't believe in God. You also implied that I had said something about
"governments that endorse a religion." But as anyone can see, I didn't say
that. Did I? What I did say was that a world government that would deny
God's existence would be ultimate evil, along the lines of a Pol Pot-type
model on a global scale. And then, you said something about my mother.

So the burden is on you. You said that "in their writings" they said they
wanted a Godless America. Which writings?

[Dragon Koi]

You quote me then change the question again. The founding fathers realized
that you can't have freedom of religion if the government is religious.
Government and religion do not mix, government by religion does not make a
free society. You are not free to understand this even if you research it
and read it for yourself. Your religion prohibits you from recognizing a
free society. That will be your downfall. You are the reason there is no
sanctioned Christian prayer in school, but all the little kiddies will be
openly celebrating the pagan holiday this week.
--
"These are the times that try men's souls: The summer soldier and the
sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his
country: but he that stands it NOW deserves the love and thanks of man and
woman. Tyranny, like Hell, is not easily conquered. Yet we have this
consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the
triumph." -Thomas Paine

"Paul Gee" <paulg123[no spam]@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:ms_6f.2239$***@tornado.socal.rr.com...
| "Dragon Koi" <***@triad.rr> wrote in message
| news:s0_6f.22166$***@twister.southeast.rr.com...
| >
| > I don't want to feed you for a day, you need to learn to fish.
| > Stick to the original question, is this is an America under God? Where
did
| > the founding fathers say that it is?
| >
|
| The original comment was:
|
| I said:
|
| "Decent men do not want an end to America under God. Only the most
| starry-eyed dupes, and evil megalomaniacs, would ever favor a Godless
| world government."
|
|
| And You said:
|
| "So, the American founding fathers were starry-eyed dupes and evil
| megalomaniacs and governments that endorse a religion are good? They got
you
| dude."
|
|
| People back then had enough sense to recognize God's existence. It's
taken
| 200 years of brainwashing to convince dolts like you and Gary Carson that
| there is no God. In the very Declaration our founders note that man is
| endowed by his Creator with unalienable rights. It's self-evident.
|
| I made a statement, and YOU stepped in here implying that the founders
| didn't believe in God. You also implied that I had said something about
| "governments that endorse a religion." But as anyone can see, I didn't
say
| that. Did I? What I did say was that a world government that would deny
| God's existence would be ultimate evil, along the lines of a Pol Pot-type
| model on a global scale. And then, you said something about my mother.
|
| So the burden is on you. You said that "in their writings" they said they
| wanted a Godless America. Which writings?
|
|

[William Coleman]

Please do not feed the troll.


William Coleman (ramashiva)

[Paul Gee]

Post by William Coleman
Please do not feed the troll.
William Coleman (ramashiva)

You're calling ME a troll? I love you Wilhelm, but you're asking for it. I
just might really killfile you someday.

You know you wouldn't want that. We need each other. We are symbiotic.

Btw, I was wondering recently, do you leave the cap off of the tootpaste
tube? Just something I wanted to know. These are the things I wonder
about. I spend most of my time thinking of you, dreaming of you.

I love you.

[Dragon Koi]

"William Coleman" <***@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:Ud%6f.929$***@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
| Please do not feed the troll.
|
|
| William Coleman (ramashiva)
|


Just killing the boredom of tournament play.

[William Coleman]

Post by Dragon Koi
| Please do not feed the troll.
|
|
| William Coleman (ramashiva)
|
Just killing the boredom of tournament play.

You want to kill boredom? Here is something much more edifying than feeding
a brainless troll like Paul --

http://67.18.94.22/2004/12/13


William Coleman (ramashiva)

[Dragon Koi]

"William Coleman" <***@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:D507f.809$***@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

| You want to kill boredom? Here is something much more edifying than
feeding
| a brainless troll like Paul --
|
| http://67.18.94.22/2004/12/13
|
|
| William Coleman (ramashiva)
|

No argument.

[Paul Gee]

Post by Dragon Koi
You quote me then change the question again. The founding fathers realized
that you can't have freedom of religion if the government is religious.
Government and religion do not mix, government by religion does not make a
free society. You are not free to understand this even if you research it
and read it for yourself. Your religion prohibits you from recognizing a
free society. That will be your downfall. You are the reason there is no
sanctioned Christian prayer in school, but all the little kiddies will be
openly celebrating the pagan holiday this week.
--

Hey fuck face, where do you get off assuming I am religious? I've never one
time stated my religious beliefs, if any, on this newsgroup.

I stated that a Godless world government would not be desired by any decent
human being and that only a "starrey-eyed dupe" or a megalomaniac would
support such a concept, and I will stand by that staement. ok? And I'll
add that a Godless America will ultimately lead to world government, Pol
Pot-style, because of that fact alone. Because of arrogant ungrateful
Americans who now are too good to believe in God, who no longer believe in
right from wrong, including allowing 2,000,000 innocent unborn people to be
slaughtered each year, in the United States of America. A couple centuries
ago, God shed his grace on thee. See what happens next, without him.

[Dragon Koi]

"Paul Gee" <paulg123[no spam]@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:mn%6f.2244$***@tornado.socal.rr.com...

| Hey fuck face, where do you get off assuming I am religious? I've never
one
| time stated my religious beliefs, if any, on this newsgroup.
|

The same place you got off assuming I wasn't religious. Stuff that in your
dick faced empty head. You have demonstrated a devotion and faithfulness to
Christian religious beliefs.

[Paul Gee]

Post by Dragon Koi
The same place you got off assuming I wasn't religious. Stuff that in your
dick faced empty head. You have demonstrated a devotion and faithfulness
to Christian religious beliefs.

I've never supposed you are not religious. You're a satan worshipper, I'm
sure of it. You've gone to the trouble of responding to my comments in
threads, specifically to say that you are in favor of aborting 2,000,000
innocent babies in this country each year and that God has no place in
America. Since you've gone to so much trouble you must feel pretty strongly
about being on the side of death and darkness and evil. So I do not assume
you are not religious. I believe you are exactly what you say you are.

[Dragon Koi]

"Paul Gee" <paulg123[no spam]@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:wR%6f.2248$***@tornado.socal.rr.com...
| "Dragon Koi" <***@triad.rr> wrote in message
|
| >
| > The same place you got off assuming I wasn't religious. Stuff that in
your
| > dick faced empty head. You have demonstrated a devotion and faithfulness
| > to Christian religious beliefs.
| >
|
| I've never supposed you are not religious. You're a satan worshipper, I'm
| sure of it. You've gone to the trouble of responding to my comments in
| threads, specifically to say that you are in favor of aborting 2,000,000
| innocent babies in this country each year and that God has no place in
| America. Since you've gone to so much trouble you must feel pretty
strongly
| about being on the side of death and darkness and evil. So I do not
assume
| you are not religious. I believe you are exactly what you say you are.

No, I'm not Christian. Satan is one of your Christian deities. You, I see,
do not deny being Christian or religious. As you don't promote or exemplify
any good Christian values I can only assume a Troll is one of Satan's little
worker bees.

[Paul Gee]

Post by Dragon Koi
As you don't promote or exemplify
any good Christian values

Well, I don't believe in the slaughter of 2,000,000 unborn babies each year
in America. And you do.

And apparently, according to some info I posted earlier, 12% of those
abortions are on pregancies of OVER twelve weeks. So I guess it's not quite
like some of you heartless phonies said in my earlier thread, where you call
it a "fetus", a "blob of cells", not "worthy" of protection. Not quite, eh?
Because babies over twelve weeks old are pretty developed. Can any of you
princes of darkness deny that?

And 12% of 2,000,000 is 240,000. So giving you all the leeway I can, let's
say that you are right about the 88% of abortions being performed on
"fetuses" less than twelve weeks old. Let's say that they are merely "blobs
of cells" and not worthy of protection.

That still leaves 240,000 little tiny human beings who are quite developed
at over twelve weeks old, who are burned with saline solution, ripped apart
with forceps, brains sucked out with an incision in the skull and a suction
device, AND THROWN IN THE FUCKING SINK! And that's EACH year in America.

And you, Dragon Koi, and morally corrupt and spiritually empty shells of men
like Wilhelm Kuhlmann and Gary Carson are in FAVOR of this.

And you talk to ME about Christian values?

warmest regards,
Paul Gee

[William Coleman]

Post by Paul Gee

Post by Dragon Koi
As you don't promote or exemplify
any good Christian values

Well, I don't believe in the slaughter of 2,000,000 unborn babies each year
in America. And you do.

Hey Paul, the correct term for an unborn baby is a fetus. And where did you
get the 2 million figure? The statistics you quoted showed abortions
steadily declining to less than 1.4 million under Clinton. Why didn't you
continue the statistics up to the present? It wouldn't be because abortions
declined steadily during the eight years of Clinton's Presidency and have
risen steadily under George Bush, would it?

Newsflash, Paul! No one is in favor of abortions, or murdering babies.
What we are in favor of is keeping the government out of the abortion
decision and allowing a woman and her doctor to make the decision. Big
difference.

Saint Hillary sums up the pro-choice position perfectly. We want abortions
to be safe, legal, and rare. One thing pro-choice and pro-life advocates
should be able to agree on is to reduce the number of abortions by reducing
the number of unwanted pregnancies. Unfortunately, most of the pro-life
people are also adamantly opposed to sex education and teaching teenagers
how to use contraceptives. Abstinence is a great idea, but teenagers should
also be taught about contraception.

Another way that abortions could be reduced would be to provide universal
health care, so a poor pregnant woman would be assured of receiving quality
pre-natal and post-natal care for both herself and her baby. But, again,
most pro-life people are very conservative and oppose any sort of universal
health care.

So, the fact is, most pro-life people are opposed to two very practical ways
to reduce the number of abortions. And, of course, most pro-choice people
are liberals who are very much in favor of comprehensive sex education and
universal health care. So, who is really interested in reducing the number
of abortions, and who just wants to sensationalize the issue and inflame
emotions by publishing pictures of aborted fetuses and accusing pro-choice
people of being baby killers?

By the way, you completely wimped out in responding to my post "OT:
Attention Paul G". Specifically, you did not respond to the undeniable fact
that there is nothing in the Old or New Testament prohibiting abortion.

Here is a little experiment for you. Go to your local synagogue and ask the
Rabbi what the Jewish faith teaches about abortion. Unless he is a member
of an ultra-conservative orthodox sect, he will tell you that Jews believe
that the government should stay out of this decision which should be made by
a woman and her doctor. Pro-choice, in other words. That means that
Rabbinical and Talmudic scholars do not consider abortion to be murder,
since the Ten Commandments forbid murder.

Abortion is also not murder according to U.S. law, since abortion is legal
and murder is illegal. So, Paul, when you ignorantly state that abortion is
murder, by what authority, religious law, or criminal law is abortion
murder? You literally don't have a leg to stand on.

Post by Paul Gee
And apparently, according to some info I posted earlier, 12% of those
abortions are on pregancies of OVER twelve weeks. So I guess it's not quite
like some of you heartless phonies said in my earlier thread, where you call
it a "fetus",

Paul, why do you put the word "fetus" in quotes? That is the correct term
for an unborn human.

Paul, how big is a 12 week fetus? About three inches long. About the size
of a minnow, in other words.

Post by Paul Gee
a "blob of cells", not "worthy" of protection. Not quite, eh?
Because babies over twelve weeks old are pretty developed. Can any of you
princes of darkness deny that?
And 12% of 2,000,000 is 240,000. So giving you all the leeway I can, let's
say that you are right about the 88% of abortions being performed on
"fetuses" less than twelve weeks old. Let's say that they are merely "blobs
of cells" and not worthy of protection.
That still leaves 240,000 little tiny human beings who are quite developed
at over twelve weeks old, who are burned with saline solution, ripped apart
with forceps, brains sucked out with an incision in the skull and a suction
device, AND THROWN IN THE FUCKING SINK! And that's EACH year in America.

Yes. At that rate it will only take us 400 years to equal the 100 million
living, breathing human beings the Catholic Church has murdered for the
crime of rejecting Catholic doctrine. It is the ultimate hypocrisy for the
Catholic Church, which puts all mass murderers to shame, to bitch and moan
about abortion.

Post by Paul Gee
And you, Dragon Koi, and morally corrupt and spiritually empty shells of men
like Wilhelm Kuhlmann and Gary Carson are in FAVOR of this.

No, we are not in favor of this. We are in favor of the government and nosy
busybodies like you minding your own fucking business and respecting a
pregnant woman's right to privacy. What goes on inside a woman's body is
none of your fucking business, nor is it the business of the government.

Post by Paul Gee
And you talk to ME about Christian values?

Yes, let's talk about Christian values, Paul. There is nothing in the Old
or New Testament prohibiting abortion. The teaching against abortion is one
of many teachings of the Roman Catholic Church which have absolutely no
Biblical basis.

As I have explained in previous posts, the Roman Catholic Church is an
apostate, Satan-worshipping church led by the Antichrist. When you spew
your anti-abortion nonsense, you are literally spreading the teaching of the
Antichrist.


William Coleman (ramashiva)

[Paul Gee]

Post by William Coleman

Post by Paul Gee

Post by Dragon Koi
As you don't promote or exemplify
any good Christian values

Well, I don't believe in the slaughter of 2,000,000 unborn babies each year
in America. And you do.

Hey Paul, the correct term for an unborn baby is a fetus. And where did you
get the 2 million figure? The statistics you quoted showed abortions
steadily declining to less than 1.4 million under Clinton. Why didn't you
continue the statistics up to the present? It wouldn't be because abortions
declined steadily during the eight years of Clinton's Presidency and have
risen steadily under George Bush, would it?

Why would I miss an opportunity to trash talk Bush? I'm not a phony like
you, who trash talks Bush but can only see that Clinton was only guilty of
lying about a blowjob. No, I tell it like it is. BOTH of them are selling
us out.

Anyway, I found those figures on the internet and it went from 1973 through
1996. So that's what you got from me, and why.

Post by William Coleman
Newsflash, Paul! No one is in favor of abortions, or murdering babies.

Dragon Koi is.

Post by William Coleman
What we are in favor of is keeping the government out of the abortion
decision and allowing a woman and her doctor to make the decision. Big
difference.

Ok. Then no government funding of abortions. Right?

Post by William Coleman
Saint Hillary sums up the pro-choice position perfectly. We want abortions
to be safe, legal, and rare.

Rare. uh huh. 1,500,000 per year. That's all.


One thing pro-choice and pro-life advocates

Post by William Coleman
should be able to agree on is to reduce the number of abortions by reducing
the number of unwanted pregnancies. Unfortunately, most of the pro-life
people are also adamantly opposed to sex education and teaching teenagers
how to use contraceptives. Abstinence is a great idea, but teenagers should
also be taught about contraception.

Then that's the problem. Teenagers don't know what they're doing. We need
for them to take classes in public school to teach them about fucking.
That's like when I had to go to drunk school. Ha! What the fuck could they
teach me about THAT?

Post by William Coleman
Another way that abortions could be reduced would be to provide universal
health care, so a poor pregnant woman would be assured of receiving quality
pre-natal and post-natal care for both herself and her baby. But, again,
most pro-life people are very conservative and oppose any sort of universal
health care.
So, the fact is, most pro-life people are opposed to two very practical ways
to reduce the number of abortions. And, of course, most pro-choice people
are liberals who are very much in favor of comprehensive sex education and
universal health care. So, who is really interested in reducing the number
of abortions, and who just wants to sensationalize the issue and inflame
emotions by publishing pictures of aborted fetuses and accusing pro-choice
people of being baby killers?
Attention Paul G". Specifically, you did not respond to the undeniable fact
that there is nothing in the Old or New Testament prohibiting abortion.

I was out of town playing lowball for a few days. Too bad I missed it. I
counted about 250 posts in that thread, without me. Howard Beale's a
lightweight. I know. He's mad as hell. So he says anyway. I haven't seen
him call not even one person a phony fuck yet.

Wilhelm, I want you to know that when I was in a hotel, out of town and
lonely, I thought of you. I missed you. I love you.

Post by William Coleman
Here is a little experiment for you. Go to your local synagogue and ask the
Rabbi what the Jewish faith teaches about abortion. Unless he is a member
of an ultra-conservative orthodox sect, he will tell you that Jews believe
that the government should stay out of this decision which should be made by
a woman and her doctor. Pro-choice, in other words. That means that
Rabbinical and Talmudic scholars do not consider abortion to be murder,
since the Ten Commandments forbid murder.

I don't care. I don't need anyone to tell me what murder is. I know it
when I see it. I have a heart. I have warm blood pumping through my veins,
not ice water, like you and Gary Carson.

Btw, your recent response to my question about what you thought regarding
Israel giving up Gaza, actually surprised me. You thought that it was a
good effort toward peace. I thought surely that since you claim to be
pro-Israel and have an IQ of over 200, that you would see the folly of
Israel making any concessions to the Marxist Palestinians who will never
rest until every Jew is dead. Now I know that you aren't a racist even
though you say Angelina Jolie has nigger lips, and I will also assume you
are not anti-Jew, even though you are ready to stand by and see them driven
into the sea. But I ask the question, "With friends like you, who
needs.......?"

Post by William Coleman
Abortion is also not murder according to U.S. law, since abortion is legal
and murder is illegal. So, Paul, when you ignorantly state that abortion is
murder, by what authority, religious law, or criminal law is abortion
murder? You literally don't have a leg to stand on.

Post by Paul Gee
And apparently, according to some info I posted earlier, 12% of those
abortions are on pregancies of OVER twelve weeks. So I guess it's not quite
like some of you heartless phonies said in my earlier thread, where you call
it a "fetus",

Paul, why do you put the word "fetus" in quotes? That is the correct term
for an unborn human.
Paul, how big is a 12 week fetus? About three inches long. About the size
of a minnow, in other words.

I showed you pictures. Real pictures. If you or anyone else had the balls
to look at them, they were little human beings, innocent little human
beings, slaughtered legally. I CAN'T believe you are ok with killing them.
In fact, I don't believe it. As I have stated, I am sure that if you were
in a room where an abortion was about to be performed, you would step right
up and valiantly, bravely, honorably, punch the doctor in the nose and SAVE
that little baby. Like I read of Heather, I am sure that in real life you
are probably really very sweet. I can't say the same about Gary Carson, the
anti-Catholic bigot.

Post by William Coleman

Post by Paul Gee
a "blob of cells", not "worthy" of protection. Not quite, eh?
Because babies over twelve weeks old are pretty developed. Can any of you
princes of darkness deny that?
And 12% of 2,000,000 is 240,000. So giving you all the leeway I can, let's
say that you are right about the 88% of abortions being performed on
"fetuses" less than twelve weeks old. Let's say that they are merely "blobs
of cells" and not worthy of protection.
That still leaves 240,000 little tiny human beings who are quite developed
at over twelve weeks old, who are burned with saline solution, ripped apart
with forceps, brains sucked out with an incision in the skull and a suction
device, AND THROWN IN THE FUCKING SINK! And that's EACH year in America.

Yes. At that rate it will only take us 400 years to equal the 100 million
living, breathing human beings the Catholic Church has murdered for the
crime of rejecting Catholic doctrine. It is the ultimate hypocrisy for the
Catholic Church, which puts all mass murderers to shame, to bitch and moan
about abortion.

At that rate, eh? What about when the rate increases? And throw in the
coming flood of euthanasia. Change the definition of persistant vegetative
state, and soon we can "put to sleep peacefully" the disabled, the blind,
the elderly, the poor, the depressed, etc. Great. Soon in America we can
just kill all kinds of people, for convenience. Mao Tse Tung's killing of
60 million people will be dwarfed. Oops, I forgot, you bitch slapped me and
said it was only 30 million. I stand corrected. Bitch slapped by Wilhelm
once again. His idol Mao, only killed half the millions that I thought he
had. I'm so embarrassed.

Post by William Coleman

Post by Paul Gee
And you, Dragon Koi, and morally corrupt and spiritually empty shells of men
like Wilhelm Kuhlmann and Gary Carson are in FAVOR of this.

No, we are not in favor of this. We are in favor of the government and nosy
busybodies like you minding your own fucking business and respecting a
pregnant woman's right to privacy. What goes on inside a woman's body is
none of your fucking business, nor is it the business of the government.

Post by Paul Gee
And you talk to ME about Christian values?

Yes, let's talk about Christian values, Paul. There is nothing in the Old
or New Testament prohibiting abortion. The teaching against abortion is one
of many teachings of the Roman Catholic Church which have absolutely no
Biblical basis.
As I have explained in previous posts, the Roman Catholic Church is an
apostate, Satan-worshipping church led by the Antichrist. When you spew
your anti-abortion nonsense, you are literally spreading the teaching of the
Antichrist.
William Coleman (ramashiva)

Like I said. I don't give a fuck. I know murder when I see it. I have a
heart. I like kittens, puppies, AND little innocent babies. And what do
you like? Green fluff, teenage pussy, and Mao Tse Tung. Please lecture me
some more on morality and Christian values.

I am not here to debate anyone. For one thing, I am right and most who
disagree with me are simply wrong. There is no debate. And second, I am a
nobody. I have no formal education. I got expelled in 9th grade and never
finished high school. I am an uncouth, crude, and vulgar, uneducated
highschool dropout, who resorts to insults, strawman arguments, and ad
hominem attacks. I can't understand why anyone with a high IQ and academic
accomplishment would want to waste time even talking to me. A debate would
be a bitch slapping cakewalk, a route, for my opponent. Surely the lack of
challenge would thwart my gaining any matches. That's why I don't debate.
But I do like to shoot the breeze with my friends. And you, Wilhelm, are
more than just a friend. I love you.

warmest regards,
Paul Gee

[Dragon Koi]

"Paul Gee" <paulg123[no spam]@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:wR%6f.2248$***@tornado.socal.rr.com...
You've gone to the trouble of responding to my comments in
| threads, specifically to say that you are in favor of aborting 2,000,000
| innocent babies in this country each year and that God has no place in
| America.

I don't advocate killing any innocent babies, only the criminal ones. And,
the next time you see God tell him I'll sponsor him for citizenship.

[bub]

Post by Dragon Koi
I don't want to feed you for a day, you need to learn to fish.
Stick to the original question, is this is an America under God? Where did
the founding fathers say that it is?

what is the first thing that was done ..the first thing..when the
constitution was ratified? by ben franklin in charge?

anyone? anyone?

[Dragon Koi]

"bub" <***@plottus.com> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
| On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 05:09:44 GMT, "Dragon Koi" <***@triad.rr>
| wrote:
|
| >I don't want to feed you for a day, you need to learn to fish.
| >Stick to the original question, is this is an America under God? Where
did
| >the founding fathers say that it is?
|
| what is the first thing that was done ..the first thing..when the
| constitution was ratified? by ben franklin in charge?
|
| anyone? anyone?

They smoked some opium, sent out for Chinese and went home and screwed the
servant girls and/or boys.

Whatever Ben did it wasn't in support of church and state. He hated the
church and didn't believe in Jesus or the Bible.

Jefferson:

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for
enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a
contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact,
constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Jefferson's word for the Bible?

Dunghill.
Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:

The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the
Christian religion.


James Madison:

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on
civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of
political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of
the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty
have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

More Madison:
Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they
are mixed together.

[bub]

conducted a prayer . you lose

Post by Dragon Koi
|
| >I don't want to feed you for a day, you need to learn to fish.
| >Stick to the original question, is this is an America under God? Where
did
| >the founding fathers say that it is?
|
| what is the first thing that was done ..the first thing..when the
| constitution was ratified? by ben franklin in charge?
|
| anyone? anyone?
They smoked some opium, sent out for Chinese and went home and screwed the
servant girls and/or boys.
Whatever Ben did it wasn't in support of church and state. He hated the
church and didn't believe in Jesus or the Bible.
The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for
enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a
contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact,
constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Jefferson's word for the Bible?
Dunghill.
The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the
Christian religion.
What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on
civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of
political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of
the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty
have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.
Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they
are mixed together.

[Paul Gee]

Post by bub
conducted a prayer . you lose

Good post, Bub. I didn't see the answer in my newsreader. Don't know why.
I was waiting for this. I knew you were going in a good direction but I
didn't know the answer.

[Dragon Koi]

"bub" <***@plottus.com> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
|
| conducted a prayer . you lose
|
Do you know he was the only one who said he was Christian? Funny thing is he
hated the church and didn't believe in Jesus or the Bible. So, what was in
the prayer... That the church never got its hands on the Government. I think
you lose. Ben's religion was nothing like the one you want in government.

[Paul Gee]

Post by Dragon Koi
Ben's religion was nothing like the one you want in government.

Hey shit-for-brains. Who here has said we want a religion in our
government? Recognizing that there is a higher source and that the
Commandments are the way He wants us to act, is not the same as establishing
a government religion.

Back to my comments about world government and its proponents, they don't
just not believe in God. They are AGAINST God. You can't see that that is
a formula for doing the Pol Pot thing all over again, but on a global scale?

[Dragon Koi]

"Paul Gee" <paulg123[no spam]@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5Xg7f.2473$***@tornado.socal.rr.com...
| "Dragon Koi" <***@triad.rr> wrote in message
| news:xkg7f.15375$***@twister.southeast.rr.com...
|
| > Ben's religion was nothing like the one you want in government.
| >
| >
|
|
| Hey shit-for-brains. Who here has said we want a religion in our
| government? Recognizing that there is a higher source and that the
| Commandments are the way He wants us to act, is not the same as
establishing
| a government religion.
|
| Back to my comments about world government and its proponents, they don't
| just not believe in God. They are AGAINST God. You can't see that that
is
| a formula for doing the Pol Pot thing all over again, but on a global
scale?
|
|

You always ask who said what when it was you who said it. Try AA, I'm not
wasting anymore time on you.

[Paul Gee]

Post by Dragon Koi
You always ask who said what when it was you who said it. Try AA, I'm not
wasting anymore time on you.

No one said they wanted a government religion.

I can understand your not wanting to be bitch slapped anymore. So just sit
there quietly from now on. Just sit there quietly and look pretty. Bitch.

[Roy MacPherson]

Post by Paul Gee

Post by Dragon Koi
Ben's religion was nothing like the one you want in government.

Hey shit-for-brains. Who here has said we want a religion in our
government? Recognizing that there is a higher source and that the
Commandments are the way He wants us to act, is not the same as establishing
a government religion.

So, why not "act" that way on your own? I do[1]. Why do you need a
government to formally acknowledge a religion on which you base your
actions? Religion is a personal choice, not a government affair.

---Roy

[1] Well, on at least 4 of the commanments I do.

[Paul Gee]

"Roy MacPherson" <***@ceeoecks.net> wrote in message
news:241020052326264708%

Post by Roy MacPherson
So, why not "act" that way on your own? I do[1]. Why do you need a
government to formally acknowledge a religion on which you base your
actions? Religion is a personal choice, not a government affair.
---Roy
[1] Well, on at least 4 of the commanments I do.

If I remember correctly, Roy, you like to cheat on your wife and do your
girlfriends in the ass. I don't know any Christians who are trying to stop
you.

[garycarson]

Post by Paul Gee
Hey shit-for-brains. Who here has said we want a religion in our
government? Recognizing that there is a higher source and that the
Commandments are the way He wants us to act, is not the same as establishing
a government religion.

Enforcement of the commandments isn't the establishment of a religion?

Have you actually read the commandments?

Gary Carson
www.garycarson.com

[Paul Gee]

Post by garycarson
Enforcement of the commandments isn't the establishment of a religion?

No. It's not.

[RazzO]

'According to archeologist and anthropologist, religion is as old as
history itself. Evidence has been found to support this theory, even among
primitive undeveloped civilizations. ... And probably the most vital
question to ask is why did any religion start?'

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Andes/4733/tableofarchivecontents.htm

Post by Paul Gee

Post by garycarson
Enforcement of the commandments isn't the establishment of a religion?

No. It's not.

RazzO
http://www.razzo.com
email:***@yahoo.com
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[garycarson]

Post by RazzO
'According to archeologist and anthropologist, religion is as old as
history itself. Evidence has been found to support this theory, even among
primitive undeveloped civilizations. ... And probably the most vital
question to ask is why did any religion start?''t

It's not a tough question to answer.

There is tons of evidence that the human brain insists on developing
explanations or rationalzations for things it doesn't understand. Read
up on evolutionary psychology.

There have been evolutionary advantages for refusal to accept the
existance of randomness. The concept of randomness is fairly new in
human intellectual development, and even those who understand it often
insist that they've found patterns in random sequences.

Religion has always been used as a method to cover up ignorance. These
days it's often used to promote ignorance.

Gary Carson
www.garycarson.com

[Paul Gee]

Post by garycarson
Religion has always been used as a method to cover up ignorance. These
days it's often used to promote ignorance.

Like I've said, modern man is too "smart" to believe in God.
Thall shalt really be just a dumb mutherfucker.

[Roy MacPherson]

Post by Paul Gee
Yet it is the militantly anti-God and soft-on-Marxism types, like some of
those in this thread such as Wilhelm Kuhlmann and Gary Carson, who will
approve of the destruction of Christianity and all that is good,

Is it "Christianity, and all that is good" or is it "Christianity and
all that is good?" Seems to me that "Christianity" and "good" have no
purpose being in the same clause together.

Post by Paul Gee
When God is taken out of American life by the likes of the ACLU,

The ACLU doesn't want to take God out of American Life. They want to,
correctly and according to the constitution, take God out of politics.

Post by Paul Gee
Decent men do not want an end to America under God.

That's a bold claim. Do you have to be Christian to be decent? I can
assure you, I know more decent non-Christians than I know decent
Christians.

Christianity: It's a disease.

---Roy

[Paul Gee]

Post by Roy MacPherson

Post by Paul Gee
Yet it is the militantly anti-God and soft-on-Marxism types, like some of
those in this thread such as Wilhelm Kuhlmann and Gary Carson, who will
approve of the destruction of Christianity and all that is good,

Is it "Christianity, and all that is good" or is it "Christianity and
all that is good?" Seems to me that "Christianity" and "good" have no
purpose being in the same clause together.

Post by Paul Gee
When God is taken out of American life by the likes of the ACLU,

The ACLU doesn't want to take God out of American Life. They want to,
correctly and according to the constitution, take God out of politics.

Post by Paul Gee
Decent men do not want an end to America under God.

That's a bold claim. Do you have to be Christian to be decent? I can
assure you, I know more decent non-Christians than I know decent
Christians.
Christianity: It's a disease.
---Roy

Roy, do you know what happened in Nicaragua to people who owned nice homes
when the Godless Sandanistas took over? Uh, nice homes, like, what might be
worth over $400,000 in California? Go ahead and keep those hedges trimmed,
Roy, for now. But I wouldn't go overboard on buying lawn furniture if I was
you.

[William Coleman]

Please do not feed the troll.


William Coleman (ramashiva)

[Paul Gee]

Post by William Coleman
Please do not feed the troll.
William Coleman (ramashiva)

What troll? Who? Me? Are you talking to ME?

Wilhelm bitch slaps me once again. I am so embarrassed. But why shouldn't
that be? Just why shouldn't Wilhelm Kuhlmann consistently outdebate and
bitch slap me, as he has stated that he has done? Wilhelm has an impressive
list of academic credits and accomplishments. And me? I am but a mere high
school drop out, who is rather crude and vulgar and has no experience in
debating so I merely resort to insults, strawman arguments, and ad hominem
attacks. Not only did I not finish high school, but I didn't even make it
past 9th grade. Wilhelm has an IQ over 200. Heck, the limit on my credit
card doesn't even go THAT high. So Wilhelm has much to his credits and
accomplishments, and I am an uneducated nobody. So why shouldn't Wilhelm
bitch slap me? Why?

WHY? WHY, I ASK?! WHY?

[James L. Hankins]

Post by William Coleman
Please do not feed the troll.

Perhaps the single funniest post in RGP history. Thanks, Willie.

[William Coleman]

Post by James L. Hankins

Post by William Coleman
Please do not feed the troll.

Perhaps the single funniest post in RGP history. Thanks, Willie.

I would much rather be an uber troll than an internet stalker, which is
exactly what you have turned into. You are as bad as my other stalkers,
such as Susan and Fearless Freap.


William Coleman (ramashiva)

[FL Turbo]

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:35:23 GMT, "William Coleman"

Post by William Coleman

Post by James L. Hankins

Post by William Coleman
Please do not feed the troll.

Perhaps the single funniest post in RGP history. Thanks, Willie.

I would much rather be an uber troll than an internet stalker, which is
exactly what you have turned into. You are as bad as my other stalkers,
such as Susan and Fearless Freap.
William Coleman (fat-ass)

Hey, don't forget about me.

I don't love you like Paul does, but I do rely on you.

I rely on you to start OT Political threads with the latest fevered
ravings from the Moonbat caves.

You haven't been doing your job lately.
Get to work.


---------------- FL Turbo, President SJIU,Inc. -------------
-- Serving the Otherwise Mandibly Enabled since 2005 --

[da pickle]

Post by FL Turbo
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:35:23 GMT, "William Coleman"

Post by William Coleman

Post by James L. Hankins

Post by William Coleman
Please do not feed the troll.

Perhaps the single funniest post in RGP history. Thanks, Willie.

I would much rather be an uber troll than an internet stalker, which is
exactly what you have turned into. You are as bad as my other stalkers,
such as Susan and Fearless Freap.
William Coleman (fat-ass)

Hey, don't forget about me.
I don't love you like Paul does, but I do rely on you.
I rely on you to start OT Political threads with the latest fevered
ravings from the Moonbat caves.
You haven't been doing your job lately.
Get to work.
---------------- FL Turbo, President SJIU,Inc. -------------
-- Serving the Otherwise Mandibly Enabled since 2005 --

Hey ... hey ... hey ... me too ... me too ... me too

[Paul Gee]

Post by FL Turbo
Hey, don't forget about me.
I don't love you like Paul does, but I do rely on you.
I rely on you to start OT Political threads with the latest fevered
ravings from the Moonbat caves.
You haven't been doing your job lately.
Get to work.
---------------- FL Turbo, President SJIU,Inc. -------------
-- Serving the Otherwise Mandibly Enabled since 2005 --

Did Wilhelm killfile you while I was gone? If so, I'm going to tease you
relentlessly. rotflmao!

[FL Turbo]

On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:24:17 GMT, "Paul Gee" <paulg123[no

Post by Paul Gee

Post by FL Turbo
Hey, don't forget about me.
I don't love you like Paul does, but I do rely on you.
I rely on you to start OT Political threads with the latest fevered
ravings from the Moonbat caves.
You haven't been doing your job lately.
Get to work.
---------------- FL Turbo, President SJIU,Inc. -------------
-- Serving the Otherwise Mandibly Enabled since 2005 --

Did Wilhelm killfile you while I was gone? If so, I'm going to tease you
relentlessly. rotflmao!

Yes, but it was only 1 of the 3 of him.
The other 2 didn't.
As far as I know.

I saw you bragging about being the only one taken out of his killfile.

You Elitist Snob.

[arlo payne]

Go figure!
I am not Catholic but yet I have been on the third floor of the Vatican.
Any Good Catholics out there will understand what a big deal that really is.

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[O-PGManager]

The tobacco industry has them all beat combined.

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