On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 05:56:43 GMT, "Fistful of Nothing"
[----]
Post by Fistful of NothingPost by LizPost by onegodPost by LizThere is no evidence for soul.
Sure there is. Soul is a word and this word existed for long time.
Yes, there is evidence for the *word soul just as there is evidence
for the *word leprechaun. Both words have been in existence for a
long time. That, however, does not mean that there is a real object
that is identified with the word.
Just as there is no evidence for meaning, yet you seem to believe you have
it.
At least from your words.
Yes, wonderful, Fist! At last there is some understanding of my
position. Meaning is subjective. The only meaning for my life is
that which I give to it. There is no objective universal meaning that
is conferred upon humans from a divine source.
Meaning does not exist outside the mind that conceives value. In the
same way, souls, gods, and leprechauns do not exist independent of a
mind who believes in them.
Post by Fistful of NothingPost by LizPost by onegodOf
course we are talking about
faith part, then i agree that there is no conclusive evidance.
No, there is no evidence at all.
We don't know that much yet anyway.
Since "we don't know that much", will you agree that there is no
supporting evidence for souls *yet? Given the lack of evidence *yet,
I have no reason to believe in its existence. If some
noncontroversial evidence is produced, of course, I will reevaluate my
position. However, as things stand, there is really no reason to
believe in all manner of proposed things and beings that people say
*may be possible, but fail to support with actual objective evidence.
Post by Fistful of NothingPost by LizPost by onegodOtoh,
similarly, there's no conclusive evidance that your thought, consious,
will
Post by LizPost by onegodetc are all false and it is govern exclusively by random matter
arrangement.
Post by LizI don't contend that I am a "random matter arrangement". I am, in
fact, a rather nonrandom matter arrangement grown to the specifics of
my unique DNA.
You know what he meant.
With onegod, I'm unsure that he understands what I mean. His choice
of words dictated the answer since I do not claim that I am a "random
matter arrangement". I do not agree with his premise and refuse to
answer the question as if I accept his viewpoint. If he meant
something else, then it behooves him to be more explicit.
Please don't assume that you know what I'm thinking or that I need to
reply to your satisfaction.
Post by Fistful of NothingPost by LizPost by onegodIn other word, your consious and probably belief that you have will and
can
Post by LizPost by onegodCHOSE to do things you want.... is my evidance to you that you have
ability
Post by LizPost by onegodto think and there for different from other matter such as rock (even if
you
Post by LizPost by onegodbelieve it is false consious created by matters)..
Yes, I am different that a rock since a rock does not have DNA nor is
made of organic material. I am, however, not so very different from
other mammals such as apes, pigs, or mice. They, too, can think and
make decisions. Do you believe that they are also special because
they have a soul. Or are they less "special" than we are even though
they can think.
You know there is a huge difference.
Pigs don't philosophise on the interent.
Br serious will you?
I am totally serious. You are anthropomorphizing, which is perfectly
natural. Because you are a human, you see human traits to be
valuable. You find indulging in philosophy and typing on a computer
to be valuable skills only because humans do them and other species do
not. You give value to things you do and then extend that sense of
value to others most like you -- other humans. You don't need a god
to give this value to humans. You automatically recognize it.
Thank you for this wonderful example of my point.
Post by Fistful of NothingPost by LizPost by onegod/> existence is so important that you need the hand of the divine to make
Post by Lizyour life have any meaning?
Because without it, you just exist and your contribution did not mean
anything. And I care about the world long after i am gone etc.
Whatever I contribute will mean the same whether there is a god or
there is not a god.
Utter nonsense.
If there is a God, then the enitire nature of existence has a certain
quality,
if not, then it has a different quality.
How can we tell the difference?
Post by Fistful of NothingFor instance, if Odin (for example)
does exist and you preach peace your whole life and become quite adept at it
and famous for it, you would probably piss him off. If Odin doesn't exist,
then,
the aformentioned effect would never take form.
What effect does Odin's pissiness have to do with the real world?
AFAACT, neither Odin nor any other god has been able to interface with
the physical world. Therefore, any consequence for my actions will
not change my life or my contributions, but only my supposed afterlife
for which there is no evidence that it even exists.
Post by Fistful of NothingThere are a myriad of
possible effects and meanings depending on whether there is or is not
a god.
Your dismissal is intellectually dishonest.
LOL Some people claim that gods exist, and others don't believe their
claims. Yet, we all live in the same world. Either way, the world is
exactly as it is, and if you suddenly stop believing in a god, the
world will not have changed. My contribution will remain exactly the
same, whether there are gods or no gods because I am contributing
under the same present conditions no matter what the truth of the god
position is.
Certainly, those that believe differently than I do might see my
contribution as having a different meaning, but that does not
objectively change the outcome of my contribution. However, those
viewpoints are not dependent upon the reality of God®, but instead,
they are dependent upon the subjective belief of the person who
evaluates my contribution. I am intellectually honest because I
realize the god/no god position has no effect on objective reality.
Post by Fistful of NothingPost by LizPost by onegodPost by LizWhy do you think that your personal
existence is so important that you need the hand of the divine to make
your life have any meaning?
It is NOT just my importance, but importance of LIFE itself. I want to
see
Post by LizPost by onegodit continue for billions of years and alternatively it is greater if MY
personal life can continue forever in so called heaven.
ROTFL I don't think your personal preferences matter a whit to the
universe.
What evidence do you have of that?
ROTFL
Post by Fistful of NothingPost by LizPost by onegodPost by LizPost by onegodSo, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be
considered
Post by LizPost by onegodin
Post by LizPost by onegodorder for it worth anything.
I value my life. Do you not value yours? Through empathy, I value
other human life. Can you not empathize?
See, your statement is contradiction. On one hand you dont have special
value or meaning. Yet on other hand you believe your life is worth more
than that of life of roach.
You didn't answer my questions. And you (deliberately?) misunderstand
my answers. Can you not empathize without a god to give your life
meaning? Can you not care for others without divine instructions?
Of course one can.
But you cannot ignore the fact that, if there is nothing more than matter
and energy, there is no greater governing power over morality. We made it
up. Therefore, other than getting along and populating the planet with our
DNA,
there is no real intrinsic value to morality. In other words, killing
someone for
snoring is "really" wrong. Just another mammal that won't procreate further.
Would you really kill some one if you believed that God® did not
exist? If you could, then your claim to empathy was a lie. If the
basis of your morality is merely a set of arbitrary rules that you
suppose were handed to you by a supernatural being, you aren't moral.
You are merely a robot toeing the line because you want to be rewarded
or at least not punished for your behavior.
Moral people understand and choose ethical behavior. They just don't
obey.
Post by Fistful of NothingPost by LizMy answer was not a contradiction. *I give value to my life. I don't
need a proposed god to confer some sort of specialness on me or on
others in order to value them.
Post by onegodIf you really really believe that you are just a random arrangement of
matter without being a SPECIAL EXISTANCE, . explain to me, why you value
yourself more than a ROCK or COCKROACH.
I give myself value.
Based on what? Yourself?
Yes, myself and the society in which I live.
Post by Fistful of NothingThat's good and well, but after you die, it will be meaningless,
ROTFL Of course it will be meaningless, I'll be dead. I do think
that you are starting to understand.
Post by Fistful of Nothingand
will really have had no meaing outside of your own mind.
Exactly as it is now.
Post by Fistful of NothingA temporary
tool to get you through life's hardships completely without any
real value. Sounds familiar doesn't it?
No, I really have no hardships. I and my loved ones are intelligent,
industrious, and fortunate. My life is a very, very good one.
It seems the difference between us is that I like what I see in the
mirror.
Post by Fistful of NothingPost by LizPost by onegodIn other way of looking at thing.... Lets say earth was getting hit by
some
Post by LizPost by onegodobject size of jupitor in few weeks, does that matter to you? Or it is
just another random event and univers continues with more randome events?
It won't matter to me at all after it happens because I and you and
everyone else will be quite dead, and the Earth will no longer exist.
Does that thought frighten you?
I'm not afraid to admit that that frightens me.
Even from a naturalistic viewpoint it should be frightening.
Yet, I am not frightened. I thought that your belief in God® took
away your fear, but he can't even accomplish even that small feat.
Post by Fistful of NothingYou want to live, don't you?
Certainly, I want to live as long as I can function well in body and
in mind. However, I am not prepared to live as slave to fear of those
things that I can not control. I will instead live with love and zest
as long as I am able without fear and without groveling to some
supernatural zombie in a vain attempt to extend my life.
Liz #658 BAAWA
I think that naming your ignorance God and pretending that,
having named it, you have converted ignorance to knowledge
is a sorry approach to the unknown. -- John Popelish