Post by Eric Fisherthe truth is, they never mentioned womens hair at all.
Yeah, I misquoted them unintentionally, subsequently apologized
for doing so, and quoted what is, as far as I can tell, actual transcribe
text from their flier. Indeed, their only hair-related complaint was
that the men had long hair (which is, of course, no less ridiculous).
Post by Eric Fisherthe real question is how you reconcile the fact that you say, "At some
point you've just got to trust that people are what they say they are
until they do something to violate that trust."
and then you take a group that states a concern that a fest is
dishonering god and blow them off with a statement that ignores almost
everything they say and says they said something they didn't?
I'm getting the idea that you're not able, or perhaps not willing,
to have an intellectually honest argument. My statement that you
quoted was in regard to digging up dirt on bands. You keep focusing
on a misquote that I apologized for and corrected.
And why is it that you're so willing to take the shallow, biased, and
under-informed opinions of a group of protestors at face value, while
at the same time wanting to know all about the personal flaws and failures
of bands before you'll listen to them? Whatever happened to "love
believes the best"?
Those protestors (and you, in your dirt-digging), seem to want to focus
on everything that's wrong (or that might, possibly, be wrong; or even
that just doesn't look like what you think "right" looks like). I choose
to believe the best. Not in a naive way - I understand that people sin,
people screw up, people let you down; that's inevitable. But the
important thing is what happens after that. Maybe that's the lesson
you should be teaching these junior high girls you mentioned, rather
than digging around looking for dirt and hoping to find a band that's
clean enough.
Post by Eric Fisherthe truth is, while i disagreed with their conclusions, i think a
christian of integrity would look at their concerns and use it as a
valuable opportunity to show gods love back, and to check ourselves,
rather than just laugh at them and puff up with pride. we took them
seriously were thankful for their concern and how it brought us into
check with god, as we kicked off the week.
Good for you. I never saw them personally - they weren't there when
we arrived. If I'd seen them, I wouldn't have harassed them. I was
very disappointed to hear that some people gave them a hard time. I
was happy to hear that people talked to them and were kind to them,
and I was pleased that the Cornerstone web people gave them a forum
to make their concerns known (even if the decision was ultimately
made to not post the interview on the website, which a lot of people
involved were apparently disappointed about).
At the same time, though, while I agree that we should treat all people
with basic courtesy and love, I think it's OK to recognize that their
ideas are wrong. I'm 35 years old - should I still be wringing my
hands and rending my garments every time somebody tells me that my
hair's too long? NO! I dealt with that issue 15 years ago, and I'm
confident in my conclusion.
Post by Eric Fisher1. that god was being dishonored.
- are you saying god was never dishonored at cornerstone?
Nope, I already said that I'M SURE that wherever thousands of people
gather, something is done that dishonors God. Heck, I'M SURE that
wherever ONE person is, something is done that dishonors God. I don't
need protestors with signs to tell me that. I think there's probably
more going on at Cornerstone that HONORS God than in a lot of other
places, so why protest Cornerstone? Why not "Lollapalooza Dishonors
God" or "Peoria Dishonors God"?
Post by Eric Fisher2. false doctrines were taught
- since you didn't go to the seminars i'll help you on this one. i can
say this has to be true just by the fact that i attended 2 seminars that
taught opposing doctrines that cancelled each other out as being true. i
don't even need to make a judgement to testify this is true.
There's a wide variety of thought at the festival. Some of it I agree
with, some of it I don't. I like that the fest respects my intelligence
and ability to discern and decide what's right and what's wrong. As for
specifics, well, like I said, I didn't go to any seminars.
But here's a news flash for you - that stuff about men with long hair
dishonoring God? THAT'S FALSE DOCTRINE!
Post by Eric Fisher3. "Ecumenical and even New Age religion is common fare."
- this is true. (i heard evidences of this at concerts.)
Examples?
Post by Eric Fisher4. "Tattooing and body piercing are accepted and approved."
- true, and they have every right to understand scripture as frowning
upon this. (even if my kid just got a tattoo and i told him he could
pierce his nose.)- a concern for the average christian parent who send
their kid, unaware of this. i went with a guy who did "tentside
piercings" a few years ago, and didn't even think about the poor girl
who got swept up in the weekend, got tattooed and went home to parents
who probably disowned her. thanks for the concern, picketers! wow,
there's a wake-up call i needed.
How dare these Christians be accepting of people different than they are!
What you say seems hypocritical, though. How can you support their
anti-tattooing/piercing stance, and yet let your kid get tattoos and
piercings? That makes no sense to me (no tattoos and piercings here,
and never will be...).
Post by Eric Fisher5. "Young women immodestly dressed and men with long hair are
commonplace."
- true, i was one of those men. and i have heard glenn kaiser talk about
how the "Young women immodestly dressed" at c-stone can be a problem. do
you know his connection to the fest? if so, enough said.
The only "immodestly dressed" young women that I saw were some pre-teens
or young teens going to shows in bathing suits (presumably straight from
the beach). I think what the protestors consider immodest, and what
Glenn considers immodest, and what I consider immodest are probably
different things.
Post by Eric Fisher6. "Cornerstone features ungodly, worldly music. Many of the songs have
nonsensical—in a few cases, obscene—lyrics."
- i think we just saw you post "not all "music by Christians" is even
"pastoral," or remotely relevant to Christianity." and "most of the
songs on the Mute Math album" "could have been written by ANYBODY,
Christian or not." - that's a legitimate concern for parents that send
their kids with a youth group, thinking they're gonna be just hearing
music with a "christian" message. (fyi: mute math: hm stage- thursday -
1030pm.)
You're twisting my words, I think, inasmuch as I can make any sense out
of what you're saying.
As for the protestors, I'd like to hear examples of these nonsensical
lyrics (and who cares if they're nonsensical, anyway? do they protest
nursery rhymes, too?) and obscene lyrics (a problem, if they exist,
something I'm not so sure about).
As for what you're saying, this is an age-old debate. I wasn't saying
that there was ANYTHING wrong with Christians writing music that doesn't
have a Christian message, so don't try to make it sound like I was.
And by the way, you've got your facts wrong - Mute Math was scheduled for
the HM stage for 10:00-10:45 on Thursday. (Of course, their setup and
sound check went long, so it was more like 10:20 before they started.)
I was at the show. It was my favorite of the fest. I'm not sure what
point you're trying to make.
Post by Eric Fisher7. we need to be "worshipping Him in the beauty of holiness."
- i am pretty sure i have sat in on more than one glenn kaiser seminar
where he said exactly the same thing.
So what? I'm not saying that everything they said was wrong. They're
hurting their cause by adding so much stupid baggage to whatever valid
points they've got. (I'm willing to bet that the protestors definition
of "worshipping Him in the beauty of holiness" is different from that
of Glenn Kaiser, though...)
Post by Eric Fisher8. they showed "movies which many unsaved parents would not want their
young people to watch. For instance, this year featured a "Days of the
Dead" line-up of movies."
- true, i watched "donnie darko", which definitely would fit this
category, among others. and witnessed a young girl walking away after
the viewing, cursing god in the most vile terms imaginable. if you are
unaware of this film, feel free to check it out. i had 3 teens i was
with, tell me i may need to keep a high school kid i brought from seeing
this movie.
Again, so what? Did Cornerstone become a day care center when I wasn't
looking?
Post by Eric Fishermy point has nothing to do with agreement with their conclusions. it has
everything to do with the fact that they have many valid, (and valuable,
for those who will listen) concerns from folks who are trying to be what
they feel god wants them to be.
If they're sincerely that concerned about the souls of those long-haired,
immodestly dressed, tattooed, pierced movie watchers wandering the
grounds, why not actually come in and talk with them, instead of standing
outside throwing accusations from poster board?
It seems to me that it all comes down to "you don't look and act like us,
and we're not going to stand for it." I don't have a lot of time for
that, honestly.
Post by Eric Fisherthe official link from those who were at the gate, and the message from
Pilgrims Covenant Church - Witness at Cornerstone
http://pccmonroe.org/Updates/2006.07.07.htm
Seems an odd definition of "ministry," standing on a streetcorner holding
up a sign.
JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"