Discussion:
Interesting Article on "Christian" Music
(too old to reply)
CMM
2006-07-19 16:58:08 UTC
Permalink
http://www.christianitytoday.com/music/commentaries/howtofixccm.html

I agree with it.

-- Christian
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2006-07-19 17:45:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by CMM
http://www.christianitytoday.com/music/commentaries/howtofixccm.html
That's a good article, and I agree with most of what he has to say.

That article links to an article that I strongly disagree with:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/006/28.62.html

While we're on the topic of Mute Math, let me just say that they've
shot up the charts to become one of my 2 or 3 favorite bands right
now. Their album is fantastic, and their live show is mind-boggling.
Seriously, everybody needs to check this band out. They've got
some good sample songs up at http://www.myspace.com/mutemath

You can read a few blog entries by yours truly, among other r.m.c.
veterans, on the Cornerstone Festival's live coverage blog:

http://www.cornerstonefestival.com/blog/

(Look at July 7th and 8th in particular.)

You can see some video from their Cornerstone set here:

http://www.cornerstonefestival.com/coverage2006.cfm?page=clips&ClipID=78

And I've posted some photos of the fest, including quite a few of
Mute Math, here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/vapspwi/sets/72157594196285732/

The Mute Math photos are about 2/3 of the way down - look for the big chunk
of pink and purple lighted shots.

Now, back to the Christianity Today article, here's the dashed-off
e-mail I wrote regarding the "Rock Un-Solid" article that I disagreed
so strongly with.

-----

Regarding Mute Math, in his article entitled _Rock Un-Solid_, Rob Moll
writes, "Still, I find it hard to respect Christian acts that suddenly
decide they want mainstream credibility, spurning the industry that gave
them their start. If the Christian scene doesn't fit, then find another
label, other fans. There are secular artists - signed as secular acts to
secular labels, such as Sufjan Stevens and Over the Rhine - who are open
about their Christian faith."

It sounds to me that what Moll suggests for Mute Math to do (find another
label and other fans outside the Christian industry) is exactly what they
TRIED to do. The band that Mute Math spun out of, Earthsuit, was a CCM
band, on a CCM label, doing blatantly "Christian" music. That band broke
up, some of the members reformed as Mute Math (doing music that doesn't
have a blatantly Christian message), and they signed with Warner Brothers,
a mainstream label. Warner Brothers then shuffled the band over to its
Christian imprint, Word, and began marketing the band as a Christian
band, leading to Mute Math's suit against the label.

It's clearly an unfortunate and unpleasant situation, but I can't really
see what more Mute Math could have done to follow Moll's advice quoted
above. It's unfair for _Christianity Today_ to denigrate the band because
of this situation. I recently attended the Cornerstone music festival,
which features a lot of acts on the fringe of the Christian music scene
(including Mute Math and Over the Rhine), and had to defend Mute Math
from a number of people whose opinions of the band were based on
misinformation gleaned from your magazine.

I really appreciate Mark Joseph's article entitled _How to Fix CCM_, which
does a better job of presenting the facts of the Mute Math situation,
along with a lot of other interesting ideas.

-----

So, there you go - probably the most on-topic links and content to show up in
a post to r.m.c. in years. :-)

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
blues disciple
2006-07-19 18:09:28 UTC
Permalink
I can definitely see Mute Math's point and why they are doing what they
are doing.

My big problem with the CCM industry is that is totally ignores a large
population of Christian artists who play more diverse styles of music.
For example, I am a blue musician and I write Christian blues. I
cannot find Christian blues CD's from other artists (and there are
indeed many of them) in any Christian bookstore. Nor are they signed
to any of the major Christian labels. The same for other genres of
music---heavy metal, alternative (not so much so) and rap/hip-hop
(though this is slowly changing). According the CCM industry, if you
don't play radio-ready Top 40 pop and rock (ie, Third Day, Steven
Curtis Chapman, Jeremy Camp, Mercy Me, etc.) then you are not even
considered for even their small market promotion and recording. CCM
radio is even worse. Try to get a gig if you don't play Top 40
Christian hits----it ain't gonna happen.
It is very frustrating.

I have no problem playing Christian music for Christians. No problem
playing Christian music for non-believers. Being given a chance to
present my music live or listen to others who play diverse genres would
be a true Godsend.

CCM needs to change drastically not only for the Mute Maths of the
world, but for the sake of all Christian musicians and Christian
listeners.

BD
Eric Fisher
2006-07-19 20:14:21 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@cms.k12.nc.us (blues=A0disciple)
...My big problem with the CCM industry is that is totally ignores a
large population of Christian artists who play more diverse styles of
music. ......According the CCM industry, if you don't play radio-ready
Top 40 pop and rock (ie, Third Day, Steven Curtis Chapman, Jeremy Camp,
Mercy Me, etc.) then you are not even considered for even their small
market promotion and recording. CCM radio is even worse. Try to get a
gig if you don't play Top 40 Christian hits----it ain't gonna happen.
It is very frustrating.
I have no problem playing Christian music for Christians. No problem
playing Christian music for non-believers. Being given a chance to
present my music live or listen to others who play diverse genres would
be a true Godsend.
CCM needs to change drastically not only for the Mute Maths of the
world, but for the sake of all Christian musicians and Christian
listeners.
BD
<><><><>>

boy howdy,
i'm with you on this. "ccm" is not necessarily the answer for the
average christian musician. but those who call for it's total demise are
also not on-target.
i have desparitely and repeatedly looked for ways to find diverse music,
played by christian folks who are interested in the bigger issues, such
as integrity, etc. i have had opportunities to promote such artists in
the past and, due to lack of resources, ended up promotig bands who are
on the christian labels who turned out to be worse examples for the kids
than non-christians. surely there is some sort of way to find christians
who will play for christians, who are going to be better examples of
christianity than the non-christians?
i mean really, kids today do not need one more singer who's been thru 2
divorces and is just waiting for a big break so he can quit playing
these stupid "jesus jingles", and "hey sexy, you got a cig?".
blues disciple
2006-07-19 20:29:00 UTC
Permalink
"boy howdy,
i'm with you on this. "ccm" is not necessarily the answer for the
average christian musician. but those who call for it's total demise are
also not on-target."
Although I have my problems with the CCM industry, neither would I call
for its demise. In fact, the quality of the pop/rock music in CCM has
drastically improved than what it was say 10 years ago. It has
progressed from pablum-like syrupy stuff to some good, well-produced
rockin' music. Third Day, Jeremy Camp and others have invigorated the
CCM industry and brought it into the 20th century.

Now it needs some well-supported diversity to keep it moving into the
21st century.

BD
Tim V.
2006-08-07 18:17:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by blues disciple
"boy howdy,
i'm with you on this. "ccm" is not necessarily the answer for the
average christian musician. but those who call for it's total demise are
also not on-target."
Although I have my problems with the CCM industry, neither would I call
for its demise. In fact, the quality of the pop/rock music in CCM has
drastically improved than what it was say 10 years ago. It has
progressed from pablum-like syrupy stuff to some good, well-produced
rockin' music. Third Day, Jeremy Camp and others have invigorated the
CCM industry and brought it into the 20th century.
You just ain't whistlin' Dixie, either! I tried and tried to "get into"
Christian rock back in the early 80's and never could find anything
worth listening to. Stryper (and some Petra) was the only choices for me.
Saint had a good song here and there.

I remember trying Degarmo & Key, Barnabus, etc. I'd buy anything that
looked good in the Christian book store in a gamble to find something I
might like.
--
Tim.

"Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither
liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

"Associate yourself with men of good quality if you esteem your own
reputation. It is better to be alone than in bad company" - George
Washington
Jeff Edwards
2006-07-19 21:26:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Fisher
boy howdy,
i'm with you on this. "ccm" is not necessarily the answer for the
average christian musician.
See, I've always thought of "CCM" as a certain genre of Christian music.
Back in the 80s when I was really more into Christian music than now and
was a subscriber to CCM Magazine, maybe that's what painted that
perception. The sort of middle-of-the-road pop they covered and what
was played on KLTY in Dallas were what I called "CCM" - as opposed to
"Christian Rock", "Christian Metal", etc.

Thus, when people talk about CCM, I still think of that genre. My
parents, for instance, are very into it and pretty much never take the
car stereos off KLTY. However, if I pick up my copies of Alternative
Press these days, it is almost without fail covering a number of
"Christian" artists, particularly in the Tooth and Nail catalog. My
brain never even makes the connection to the term "CCM". In fact, in my
MP3 collector database, I don't think I even classify things as
Christian anymore - it's rock, pop, jazz, blues, etc - genre, not
ideology.

-Jeff
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2006-07-19 21:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Edwards
See, I've always thought of "CCM" as a certain genre of Christian music.
Yeah, that's kind of the way I use the term. CCM is the stuff that
gets played on your usual Christian radio stations to me. (That's,
in theory, a pretty fuzzy definition, but in practice, it's pretty clear.)

Here's something I wrote for a mailing list, crudely and quickly re-edited
for posting here. It kind of gets into the issue of Christian bands
in the mainstream and stuff like that:

[Somebody was talking about mainstream audiences needing to hear what
Switchfoot, Relient K, Mute Math, et al have to offer, which spurred
me to post the following...]

This was bugging me a bit when I was listening to Doug Van Pelt at the
"state of the industry" panel at Cornerstone, and you kind of reminded me
of it. Paraphrasing the point from the panel, Doug and others basically said
that there will always be a need for Christian bookstores and the
Christian industry to service Christians with worship music and stuff
that's very specifically Christianity-related. Doug saw the division
in music being along these lines: "evangelical" music in Christian
bookstores, and everything else being "pastoral" (edification, teaching,
or whatever) and in the general market.

(Yeah, the line gets a little fuzzy with bands like Casting Crowns
and Third Day that are kind of still in that evangelical mold, but having
mainstream success. But that's not the point here.)

The thing that I didn't so much like about that dichotomy, and the thing
that was said that put me into this ramble in the first place, is
that not all "music by Christians" is even "pastoral," or remotely
relevant to Christianity. It's just music that happens to be made
by Christians. Just to pull a couple of decent examples out of the
air, most of the songs on the Mute Math album, and most of the songs
on the Family Force 5 album, could have been written by ANYBODY,
Christian or not. It's good, it's entertaining, it's played by
Christians, but it's NOT "pastoral."

If I'm reading the stuff I paraphrased above right, the author is saying
that the secular market needs to hear this stuff, essentially, because they
aren't Christians and might be saved or ministered to or touched or
otherwise positively influenced by these bands. Obviously you can
never tell what's going to "impact somebody's life," but I'd guess
that such "impact" is rare with this stuff, and statements along these
lines ("pastoral," "need to hear it") still sound to me like they're
coming from some need to justify the existance of and find a purpose
for the music, instead of just letting it BE, for no other reason than
somebody felt like writing a song and recording it, because they enjoy
doing that and hope to make a living at it.

This is just kind of the way these discussions hit
me over the last couple of weeks. I'm not saying there's anything
wrong at all if a "band of Christians" wants to do "evangelical" music
for the Christian market, or "pastoral" music for the Christian or
mainstream markets, or "just plain" music for whatever market. I'm
just curious and skeptical about the need to define a purpose for it.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
Jeff Edwards
2006-07-19 22:16:00 UTC
Permalink
***@prism.gatech.edu (Jerry B. Ray, Jr.) wrote in news:e9m9ui$72v$***@news-int.gatech.edu:
<snip>
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
This is just kind of the way these discussions hit
me over the last couple of weeks. I'm not saying there's anything
wrong at all if a "band of Christians" wants to do "evangelical" music
for the Christian market, or "pastoral" music for the Christian or
mainstream markets, or "just plain" music for whatever market. I'm
just curious and skeptical about the need to define a purpose for it.
JRjr
Well said. I sometimes teach our adult Sunday School class, and a lot
of the topics I choose to talk about are related to the intersection of
pop culture and faith. It no doubt always offends at least some portion
of the class, but I will point out how I can find God in a lot of
places, regardless of artist intent. I have probably personally
received more to chew on spiritually from the works for the Rolling
Stones than the entire catalog of Michael W. Smith. That's just a
preference - nothing wrong with MWS if you dig it. What I'm really
saying is that the lines get drawn much too hard and thick. There's a
level of tolerance we each need to find, and mine is pretty far up there
- but in having it there I have received a lot of edification from
unexpected sources.

-Jeff
Eric Fisher
2006-07-20 07:20:26 UTC
Permalink
just a few points for diversity's sake in the discussion...

re: JRjr's post:

1. what would be the reason for thinking, as a christian, that
"mainstream audiences need to hear" bands with christian members, in the
cases where it is true that such "music by Christians" is not even
"remotely relevant to Christianity. It's just music that happens to be
made by Christians."? the way i see it, if band "z" is a band of
christians who are doing music with nothing remotely relevant to
christianity, there is no reason for christians to go running around
excitedly pronouncing "the world nees to hear this".

2. i am hoping you misunderstood Doug Van Pelt at the "state of the
industry" panel at Cornerstone. if he truly saw the "division in music
being along these lines: "evangelical" music in Christian bookstores,
and everything else being "pastoral" (edification, teaching, or
whatever) and in the general market" that seems a bit backwards.
biblically, it is the christian audience that needs teaching, and the
mainstream audience that would need evangelism. i am not saying that
every chrstian band should necessarily even be attempting teaching or
evangelism. but just that the placement seems backwards.

3. i dont disagree that a band should be able to just make songs about
flowers because they want to, without trying to find a jusification for
it. but if we are talking about "christian music" there is definately a
need for a variety of styles of music, done by serious christians with
personal integrity, with lyrics in a pastoral vein, intended for young
believers. and this resource needs to be available for youth workers,
sunday school teachers, small church pastors, counselors, etc.
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2006-07-20 14:36:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Fisher
1. what would be the reason for thinking, as a christian, that
"mainstream audiences need to hear" bands with christian members, in the
cases where it is true that such "music by Christians" is not even
"remotely relevant to Christianity. It's just music that happens to be
made by Christians."? the way i see it, if band "z" is a band of
christians who are doing music with nothing remotely relevant to
christianity, there is no reason for christians to go running around
excitedly pronouncing "the world nees to hear this".
Well, chuck (the guy that made the original post) subsequently clarified
his point a bit. (T'would be so much easier if he hadn't given up on
r.m.c. years ago - it's hard to have this discussion in two places with
two groups of people at the same time. :-)

He was making the point that, in the case of these bands, it's not the
message in the music that the "world" needs to hear, but simply the
fact that Christians can make art that is worth listening to. For years,
music by Christians has been easy to ignore because for the most part it
wasn't all that good. I think his point was that it might lead to a
snowball effect, where maybe eventually we'll get to a point where
Christians aren't dismissed out of hand, because people begin to see
that Christians "can have original thoughts and express them in
fresh ways."

Now, musically, I still kind of disagree with him - "we" need "them"
more than "they" need "us" if music that has traditionally struggled
outside of the Christian culture is going to get a foothold in the
mainstream. But I do see his larger point. I read a few Mute Math
album and concert reviews yesterday, and while there was some focus
on the music and the performance, there was a lot of ink, mostly
snarky, spent on slagging the Christian background of the band and many
of its fans. But maybe if enough "bands of Christians" can get out
there and do their thing, making quality music, people will start
to see that Christians aren't all bumpkins, or whatever the perception
is.
Post by Eric Fisher
2. i am hoping you misunderstood Doug Van Pelt at the "state of the
industry" panel at Cornerstone. if he truly saw the "division in music
being along these lines: "evangelical" music in Christian bookstores,
and everything else being "pastoral" (edification, teaching, or
whatever) and in the general market" that seems a bit backwards.
biblically, it is the christian audience that needs teaching, and the
mainstream audience that would need evangelism. i am not saying that
every chrstian band should necessarily even be attempting teaching or
evangelism. but just that the placement seems backwards.
No, I think I got his point pretty clearly. I pretty much agree that
the Christian bookstores would, ideally, be a place for very specific,
church/Christianity related products - church supplies, Bibles,
worship music, hymns, and maybe whatever small set of very Church-centered
recordings still exist (Michael Card and stuff like that). Maybe
"evangelical" isn't the right word (is there really such a thing as
evangelical music anymore? anybody still giving altar calls after concerts?),
but he seemed to be talking about very church-oriented products in
Christian bookstores, with general rock and roll CDs being sold where they
ought to be sold, in music stores.

I didn't really agree with his "pastoral" classification, because I don't
think a lot of the music that goes into the general marketplace really
has any sort of "purpose" to it beyond making good music. I agree with
the premise, but not with the term, I guess.

Indeed, the world needs evangelizing and the church needs pastoring, and
not the other way around, but rock and roll ain't gonna save the world,
and the world ain't gonna buy worship CDs. The point to take away, I
think, from what he was saying is that ideally, Christian bookstores
would be selling "church music," and all the other music would be out
there on the shelves at Best Buy, instead of having this "alternate reality"
Christian subculture that we've got currently.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
Nick
2006-07-21 01:59:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
recordings still exist (Michael Card and stuff like that). Maybe
"evangelical" isn't the right word (is there really such a thing as
evangelical music anymore? anybody still giving altar calls after concerts?),
Are Carman and Mylon "Do me a li'l Favor" still around?

Seriously though, in terms of CCM or "Evangelical" music ,I think of
that which is produced within and primarily for the predominant
Evangelical subculture in the U.S. and abroad. Classic religious or
liturgical music would not fit in that category. CCM has largely been
reactionary, that is that it was produced as an acceptable alternative to
listening to secular "pop" music.

The thing that frustrates me is when that subculture tries to
baptize and anoint artists who are clearly not of that framework for their
own purposes. Bob Dylan, Bono, and Bruce Cockburn are all examples of
people who have been victimized by that impulse.

That impulse is hardly limited to the world of music. Authors like C.S.
Lewis and Tolkien have certainly been co-opted in a similar manner by
various "evangelicals."
Eric Fisher
2006-07-20 07:34:55 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@sbcglobal.net (Jeff=A0Edwards)
Well said. I sometimes teach our adult Sunday School class, and a lot of
the topics I choose to talk about are related to the intersection of pop
culture and faith. It no doubt always offends at least some portion of
the class, but I will point out how I can find God in a lot of places,
regardless of artist intent. I have probably personally received more to
chew on spiritually from the works for the Rolling Stones than the
entire catalog of Michael W. Smith. That's just a preference - nothing
wrong with MWS if you dig it. What I'm really saying is that the lines
get drawn much too hard and thick. There's a level of tolerance we each
need to find, and mine is pretty far up there
- but in having it there I have received a lot of edification from
unexpected sources.
-Jeff
<><><><>><>

in the past, i could have posted exactly the same thing. and i
understand what you are saying. however, i think a band who will also
back up those messages you can mine from their music is much more
valuable in the long run. i've done lessons on everyones "good stuff"
including "nine inch nails", but when a jr high girl who's been
struggling with her faith, asks me if i got any cd's she can borrow, i'm
not gonna hand her the NIN pile. i'd like to find something she'd like,
done by someone who can give her a god message and wont be on the news
tomarrow in a rape case. ... and yes, that's hard to find even with the
"christian" label on the cover these days. i am asking for help in this
area, but everyone, pro- and con- "ccm" seems preoccupied with sales
potentials instead. the frustration here gets in when you realise, just
about the only option is to go ultra-fundy and hook up to sites that dig
up dirt on christians and see who they dont have yet.
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2006-07-20 14:41:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Fisher
in the past, i could have posted exactly the same thing. and i
understand what you are saying. however, i think a band who will also
back up those messages you can mine from their music is much more
valuable in the long run. i've done lessons on everyones "good stuff"
including "nine inch nails", but when a jr high girl who's been
struggling with her faith, asks me if i got any cd's she can borrow, i'm
not gonna hand her the NIN pile. i'd like to find something she'd like,
done by someone who can give her a god message and wont be on the news
tomarrow in a rape case. ... and yes, that's hard to find even with the
"christian" label on the cover these days. i am asking for help in this
area, but everyone, pro- and con- "ccm" seems preoccupied with sales
potentials instead. the frustration here gets in when you realise, just
about the only option is to go ultra-fundy and hook up to sites that dig
up dirt on christians and see who they dont have yet.
If you're ruling out music by sinners, you might as well just burn your
whole record collection, because Jesus never made a record.

If you're talking about avoiding music by artists who've had actual
run-ins with the law, or scandals, or whatever, I'd say that's a lot more
rare than you make it sound like. I can think of only a handful of those
sorts of cases in the history of Christian music. (And even then, I'm not
sure, in some cases, that the music was somehow invalidated by something
the artist did. Are Whiteheart's CDs through the 90s less awesome because
their former singer (who wasn't even in the band when those albums were
made) got arrested? Is Amy Grant's _Lead Me On_ less powerful because
the subsequently got divorced and remarried?

Those "ultra-fundy," dirt-digging sites have giant sized axes to grind,
and I'd take everything I found there with a big old grain of salt.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
Eric Fisher
2006-07-20 18:06:57 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@prism.gatech.edu (Jerry=A0B.=A0Ray,=A0Jr.)
If you're ruling out music by sinners, you might as well just burn your
whole record collection, because Jesus never made a record.
If you're talking about avoiding music by artists who've had actual
run-ins with the law, or scandals, or whatever, I'd say that's a lot
more rare than you make it sound like.
<><>><>

no, as i've stated in many other posts, personally, i am always looking
for mainstream artists who are writing good stuff. that's not the point.
the point is, i am getting more and more frustrated with the folks who
seem to be calling themselves "christian artists" who are por examples
for he young fans who tend to idolize them. for example: there's nothing
worse than trying to get some old-stick-n the mud's kid to see a glimpse
of a wider variety of christian music, and then to have them go home and
tell their parents about the christian band smokng and telling dirty
jokes. maybe, to clarify, i should be asking for "good resources for
those who may be more easily offended"?
Eric Fisher
2006-07-20 18:17:58 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@hotmail.com (CMM)
Finally, kudos to whoever puts together programming for Sirius Satellite
Radio's Christian rock station (67 - Revolution). They could stand to
have a wider variety but do play U2, Mute Math, and Cold Play alongside
the more niche Christian bands.
-- Christian
............................
From: ***@prism.gatech.edu (Jerry=A0B.=A0Ray,=A0Jr.)
Those "ultra-fundy," dirt-digging sites have giant sized axes to grind,
and I'd take everything I found there with a big old grain of salt.
JRjr
<><><>><><>>>><<>

anyone got a link for playlists on sirius? i'm interested. sounds cool.

on the other hand, in looking for bands good for kids, it looks like the
ultra-fundy sites may be my best bet? no one else is any help in finding
out who to avoid or who to trust when looking for artists who example
good christian character, and surely "some" christian leaders should
still be found to be above reproach? the thing is, it's usually pretty
easy to tell when a biased writer is just bagging on some-one and when
they have an honest concern. i guess my second link request would be for
anyone who knows who is more apt to be the latter?
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2006-07-20 18:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Fisher
on the other hand, in looking for bands good for kids, it looks like the
ultra-fundy sites may be my best bet? no one else is any help in finding
out who to avoid or who to trust when looking for artists who example
good christian character, and surely "some" christian leaders should
still be found to be above reproach?
Maybe I should be doing a background check on you to make sure you're
not doing anything I might not like, before I read and respond to your
posts?

I really think you need to get away from being so focused on what somebody
might have said or done. I guess I just assume the best about artists
unless proven otherwise, and don't spend a lot of time looking for dirt
in their personal lives. I've got enough problems of my own to worry
about that I don't need to be looking for everybody else's.

Or, to quote the 77s, "If you're looking for a perfect boy or girl, well,
forget it, baby, we're all jerks."
Post by Eric Fisher
the thing is, it's usually pretty
easy to tell when a biased writer is just bagging on some-one and when
they have an honest concern.
I don't trust "honest concerns" on websites as far as I can throw them.
There were protestors at Cornerstone whose "honest concern" was that
the boys had long hair and the girls had short hair.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
Jeff Edwards
2006-07-20 19:36:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
I really think you need to get away from being so focused on what
somebody might have said or done. I guess I just assume the best
about artists unless proven otherwise, and don't spend a lot of time
looking for dirt in their personal lives. I've got enough problems of
my own to worry about that I don't need to be looking for everybody
else's.
I'm with Jerry here. My wife watches Entertainment Tonight every once
in a while and it drives me nuts - I could care less what celebrities
think about issues or do outside their chosen media. Good example is
Sean Penn - I think he's one of the best actors out there right now and
just choose to ignore all his wacky political crap when I watch his
movies.

I understand "Christian" artists are held to a different standard
because the genre is based upon a set of beliefs. Personally, I really
can't get that worked up about things I hear about these guys either.
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
I don't trust "honest concerns" on websites as far as I can throw
them. There were protestors at Cornerstone whose "honest concern" was
that the boys had long hair and the girls had short hair.
Yeah, there was a group of protestors with honest concerns when I went
to see Tool a few years ago. They seemed honestly concerned I would go
to hell if I went to the show. They didn't seem to believe me when I
told them I would be fine, thanks.

-Jeff
Tim V.
2006-08-07 18:13:59 UTC
Permalink
***@webtv.net (Eric Fisher) wrote in news:25796-44BE929D-1
@storefull-3215.bay.webtv.net:

While I agree in principle with the article, look at it from
the other side...

If most Christian bands were marketed as "mainstream" bands,
how is someone like me to know they are? I buy 99% Christian
these days and don't want to have to keep track of every single
band. I enjoy being able to go the Christian music section of a
store and browsing thru CD's and knowing that what I buy will be
Christian. (I like to take chances on "unknown" artists and will
sometimes do the same for my kids). If I have to flip thru CD's
in the rock,metal,etc sections, no telling what I'd find.

The new/unknown Christian bands that get thrown into the mass of secular
music will be "lost in a sea of faces" :) . Of course, if that's what
the band wants, then so be it.
--
Tim.

"Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither
liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

"Associate yourself with men of good quality if you esteem your own
reputation. It is better to be alone than in bad company" - George
Washington
Breeze
2006-08-08 00:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim V.
If most Christian bands were marketed as "mainstream" bands,
how is someone like me to know they are? I buy 99% Christian
these days and don't want to have to keep track of every single
band. I enjoy being able to go the Christian music section of a
store and browsing thru CD's and knowing that what I buy will be
Christian. (I like to take chances on "unknown" artists and will
sometimes do the same for my kids). If I have to flip thru CD's
in the rock,metal,etc sections, no telling what I'd find.
At least you're not persecuted for your faith. ;)

The problems we modern western Christians have are nothing. NOTHING!

But to go along with what you have said, as long as there are people like
you who listen to mostly Christian music (and that doesn't have to be a bad
thing), there will always be a Christian music industry. No matter how
many Christians are artists who go 'mainstream,' there will always be a
market for strictly "Christian" music. What you see at your local Christian
music store is the result of marketing. A product is made that people buy.
The only way that "most Christian bands would be marketed as mainstream
bands" would be if the Christian public wanted it that way (and showed so by
how and where they buy).
Post by Tim V.
The new/unknown Christian bands that get thrown into the mass of secular
music will be "lost in a sea of faces" :) . Of course, if that's what
the band wants, then so be it.
Amen. As long as the companies continue to want to market them that way...

Breeze

CMM
2006-07-20 17:22:24 UTC
Permalink
On 19 Jul 2006 11:09:28 -0700, "blues disciple"
Post by blues disciple
I can definitely see Mute Math's point and why they are doing what they
are doing.
My big problem with the CCM industry is that is totally ignores a large
population of Christian artists who play more diverse styles of music.
I think the problem is that Christian bookstores and Christian radio
(by-and-large) won't carry bands that are Christians but fall outside
of the CCM niche. It seems that if it's on a CCM label, it'll be
carried even if the words are not overtly Christian. And, if it's on a
secular label, it won't be carried even if the words *are* overtly
Christian. I think the focus rarely makes it beyond how the band is
marketed. There are a few notable exceptions such as Switchfoot and
POD.

For the observation posted elsewhere about the term CCM, I used to
think of it as the middle-of-the-road, Top 40, soft-pop sound, too.
Apparently the term has evolved to mean any Christian music that isn't
Country or Gospel.

Finally, kudos to whoever puts together programming for Sirius
Satellite Radio's Christian rock station (67 - Revolution). They could
stand to have a wider variety but do play U2, Mute Math, and Cold Play
alongside the more niche Christian bands.

-- Christian
blues disciple
2006-07-20 18:01:17 UTC
Permalink
If I could attempt to paraphrase Eric's point, I would go to the
statement that the best sermon ever is one that is seen and not heard.
If a band promotes itself as Christians playing secular music, that's
cool---but only if their behavior reflects that Christian foundation.
If they say that and then live life on the road like many secular bands
(drinking, drugs, sex, etc.) or make statements in interviews that
refer to their secular lifestyle or are un-Christian, then they have
shot themselves in foot with both Christian and secular audiences. The
same goes for Christian artists who have very public incidents with
substance abuse or divorce due to adultery and so on......kinda makes
the message led authentic and their validity does suffer. Neither case
is going to make being a Christian any different than not being one and
will make non-believers even more skeptical and scare them away or
serve to confirm their already negative perceptions.

In many cases Christian "media stars" are our own worst enemies----just
mention some names like Jim Bakker, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggert and
you know what I mean. Such public downfalls and scandals just play
right into the non-believer's hands. Or what about political Christian
activities like bombing abortion centers and rants against movies like
The DaVinci Code or against anybody who declares themselve a Democrat
and so on. If I was a non-believer, why would I want to declare myself
Christian and be part of such a judgemental, extreme and hypocritical
group of people?

And to get back to my point, to play or enjoy any music that is not
radio-ready Christian Pop/rock (CCM if you want to call it) is
frustrating as you are often made to feel like a stranger among
friends. One of my own bandmates joked about Christian blues one time
about it not being "real"---how can you have the blues if your
Christian was similar to his comment. Being a Christian and not being
able to buy your favoite music in a Christian bookstore, or play your
Christian music in a church or coffeehouse setting is even worse. And
it all comes right down to the Christian media industry---CD's, TV,
Videos (where in the world can a teenager or adult even watch Christian
videos on TV and avoid the mess on MTV)? which doesn't sign the
artists, doesn't book or promote diverse music in any media and chooses
instead to ignore it altogether because it doesn't fit the mold, or
whose audience is outside of the right demographic.

My summary is that all will be much better when Christians become more
like Christ and become less greedy, less judgemental, more tolerant and
more open-minded......at least when it comes to the entertainment
field, if not the world at large.

I'll get off my soapbox now....

BD
Eric Fisher
2006-07-20 19:34:57 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@prism.gatech.edu (Jerry=A0B.=A0Ray,=A0Jr.)
1. ...There were protestors at Cornerstone whose "honest concern" was
that the boys had long hair and the girls had short hair.

2.I really think you need to get away from being so focused on what
somebody might have said or done...

<><><><>

1. this statement is a flat out malicious lie. i will not believe much
of anything you say if you don't clear this up. i, and others with me,
talked with them at the gate, im sitting here now with the flyer and i
have interacted with them via website. i am not sure why you feel you
need to trivialize and misrepresent those who are seeking righteousness.
you have done a great disservice to truth and integrity here. we HAVE to
respond in truthfulness, or we prove those who speak against us right.

2. once again, i am not sure why you feel you need to trivialize
misrepresent those who are seeking righteousness. you have totally and
apparently purposefully missed the boat here. i ave repeatedly asked for
good examples of christian performers who model ntegrity. you have
provideded how many? hmmm. i cannot say more to the contrary than i
already have about enjoying music from all sources. you seem to have a
cavalier disregard for those who are called to provide good examples to
young believers.
(blues=A0disciple) gt it right when he said...
"If I could attempt to paraphrase Eric's point, I would go to the
statement that the best sermon ever is one that is seen and not heard.
If a band promotes itself as Christians playing secular music, that's
cool---but only if their behavior reflects that Christian foundation. If
they say that and then live life on the road like many secular bands
(drinking, drugs, sex, etc.) or make statements in interviews that refer
to their secular lifestyle or are un-Christian, then they have shot
themselves in foot with both Christian and secular audiences. The same
goes for Christian artists who have very public incidents with substance
abuse or divorce due to adultery and so on......kinda makes the message
led authentic and their validity does suffer. Neither case is going to
make being a Christian any different than not being one and will make
non-believers even more skeptical and scare them away or serve to
confirm their already negative perceptions.
In many cases Christian "media stars" are our own worst enemies----just
mention some names like Jim Bakker, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggert and
you know what I mean. Such public downfalls and scandals just play right
into the non-believer's hands. Or what about political Christian
activities like bombing abortion centers and rants against movies like
The DaVinci Code or against anybody who declares themselve a Democrat
and so on. If I was a non-believer, why would I want to declare myself
Christian and be part of such a judgemental, extreme and hypocritical
group of people?
...My summary is that all will be much better when Christians become
more like Christ and become less greedy, less judgemental, more tolerant
and more open-minded......at least when it comes to the entertainment
field, if not the world at large.
.......

i agree with this. there is no HONEST need in you responding to me as if
i dont. thank you.
Jeff Edwards
2006-07-20 20:00:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Fisher
1. this statement is a flat out malicious lie. i will not believe much
of anything you say if you don't clear this up. i, and others with me,
talked with them at the gate, im sitting here now with the flyer and i
have interacted with them via website. i am not sure why you feel you
need to trivialize and misrepresent those who are seeking
righteousness. you have done a great disservice to truth and integrity
here. we HAVE to respond in truthfulness, or we prove those who speak
against us right.
I did not go to Cornerstone, so I'm not aware of the protesters. Based
on this exchange, though, I'm hoping you guys can elaborate on this.
Post by Eric Fisher
2. once again, i am not sure why you feel you need to trivialize
misrepresent those who are seeking righteousness. you have totally and
apparently purposefully missed the boat here. i ave repeatedly asked
for good examples of christian performers who model ntegrity. you have
provideded how many? hmmm. i cannot say more to the contrary than i
already have about enjoying music from all sources. you seem to have a
cavalier disregard for those who are called to provide good examples
to young believers.
Jerry can respond for himself, but as a third-party observer of his
statements, I did not take them as trivializing as you suggest - just
his viewpoint. In terms of the artists modeling integrity, I don't
think it's fair of you to point the finger at Jerry or anyone else,
though - he has, as have I, stated that he generally does not track the
activities of the artists outside the music.

-Jeff
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2006-07-20 21:29:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Edwards
I did not go to Cornerstone, so I'm not aware of the protesters. Based
on this exchange, though, I'm hoping you guys can elaborate on this.
I elaborated as much as I was able, via quotes from the fliers of
one group, a link to the blog of another, and my honest recollections
and opinions, in another post. Maybe Eric can add what he feels is
the real story.
Post by Jeff Edwards
Post by Eric Fisher
2. once again, i am not sure why you feel you need to trivialize
misrepresent those who are seeking righteousness. you have totally and
apparently purposefully missed the boat here. i ave repeatedly asked
for good examples of christian performers who model ntegrity.
A response to Eric that I missed providing before: I'm not trivializing
anything. I just don't understand why you're so concerned with what
these bands, which are made up of sinners (who I believe are genuinely
striving for righteousness) just like you and me, might have said or
done. I'm inherently distrustful of any group that puts too much
stock in apperances and works when judging others.

Now, how can I provide these examples you want? With a few exceptions,
I DON'T KNOW THESE PEOPLE. I'm not God, that I can peer into their hearts
and watch their private moments. I see them on stage, I see them at
their merch tables, maybe I talk to them for 5 minutes after the show.
How am I supposed to tell you if they "model integrity" based on that
information? At some point you've just got to trust that people are
what they say they are until they do something to violate that trust.
Post by Jeff Edwards
Jerry can respond for himself, but as a third-party observer of his
statements, I did not take them as trivializing as you suggest - just
his viewpoint.
Indeed. I tried to be as fair and neutral as I could be, since I
don't have all the information on these groups. But in my heart, based
on a LOT of years of fighting variations on this particular battle,
my reaction is "screw them, they're not worth wasting my time on."

There are always groups that don't like what somebody looks like,
how they sing, what kind of clothes they wear, what kind of music they
listen to, etc. It's idiocy. I disagree with them (respectfully),
but I'm not going to waste a lot of time worrying about what they think
when they're saying I'm dishonoring God by something so stupid as
the length of my hair.

(Eric, you've said good things about Glenn Kaiser, who has very long
hair, and the Violet Burning, fronted by Michael Pritzl, who has two
large tattoos on his forearms. By the standards of this group you
say I'm trivializing, those two are dishonoring God. How do you reconcile
those facts?)

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
Eric Fisher
2006-07-21 08:19:14 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@prism.gatech.edu (Jerry=A0B.=A0Ray,=A0Jr.)
(Eric, you've said good things about Glenn Kaiser, who has very long
hair, and the Violet Burning, fronted by Michael Pritzl, who has two
large tattoos on his forearms. By the standards of this group you say
I'm trivializing, those two are dishonoring God. How do you reconcile
those facts?)
JRjr
%%%%%%%%%%%%%% =A0

here's how:
you quickly dismiss their whole effort with:
"I don't trust "honest concerns" on websites as far as I can throw them.
"There were protestors at Cornerstone whose "honest concern" was that
the boys had long hair and the girls had short hair."
JRjr
<><>>><>><

the truth is, they never mentioned womens hair at all.

the real question is how you reconcile the fact that you say, "At some
point you've just got to trust that people are what they say they are
until they do something to violate that trust."
and then you take a group that states a concern that a fest is
dishonering god and blow them off with a statement that ignores almost
everything they say and says they said something they didn't?

the truth is, while i disagreed with their conclusions, i think a
christian of integrity would look at their concerns and use it as a
valuable opportunity to show gods love back, and to check ourselves,
rather than just laugh at them and puff up with pride. we took them
seriously were thankful for their concern and how it brought us into
check with god, as we kicked off the week.

i mean, c'mon.... in the handout, they quoted mike roe of the 77's with
"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of
the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the
world." - oh wait that's also in 1 John 2:15-16

some of their concerns were as follows:

1. that god was being dishonored.

- are you saying god was never dishonored at cornerstone?

2. false doctrines were taught

- since you didn't go to the seminars i'll help you on this one. i can
say this has to be true just by the fact that i attended 2 seminars that
taught opposing doctrines that cancelled each other out as being true. i
don't even need to make a judgement to testify this is true.

3. "Ecumenical and even New Age religion is common fare."

- this is true. (i heard evidences of this at concerts.)

4. "Tattooing and body piercing are accepted and approved."

- true, and they have every right to understand scripture as frowning
upon this. (even if my kid just got a tattoo and i told him he could
pierce his nose.)- a concern for the average christian parent who send
their kid, unaware of this. i went with a guy who did "tentside
piercings" a few years ago, and didn't even think about the poor girl
who got swept up in the weekend, got tattooed and went home to parents
who probably disowned her. thanks for the concern, picketers! wow,
there's a wake-up call i needed.

5. "Young women immodestly dressed and men with long hair are
commonplace."

- true, i was one of those men. and i have heard glenn kaiser talk about
how the "Young women immodestly dressed" at c-stone can be a problem. do
you know his connection to the fest? if so, enough said.

6. "Cornerstone features ungodly, worldly music. Many of the songs have
nonsensical=97in a few cases, obscene=97lyrics."

- i think we just saw you post "not all "music by Christians" is even
"pastoral," or remotely relevant to Christianity." and "most of the
songs on the Mute Math album" "could have been written by ANYBODY,
Christian or not." - that's a legitimate concern for parents that send
their kids with a youth group, thinking they're gonna be just hearing
music with a "christian" message. (fyi: mute math: hm stage- thursday -
1030pm.)

7. we need to be "worshipping Him in the beauty of holiness."

- i am pretty sure i have sat in on more than one glenn kaiser seminar
where he said exactly the same thing.

8. they showed "movies which many unsaved parents would not want their
young people to watch. For instance, this year featured a "Days of the
Dead" line-up of movies."

- true, i watched "donnie darko", which definitely would fit this
category, among others. and witnessed a young girl walking away after
the viewing, cursing god in the most vile terms imaginable. if you are
unaware of this film, feel free to check it out. i had 3 teens i was
with, tell me i may need to keep a high school kid i brought from seeing
this movie.
.........

my point has nothing to do with agreement with their conclusions. it has
everything to do with the fact that they have many valid, (and valuable,
for those who will listen) concerns from folks who are trying to be what
they feel god wants them to be. like the test of us, they are surely not
always right, but "At some point you've just got to trust that people
are what they say they are until they do something to violate that
trust."
.........

the official link from those who were at the gate, and the message from
the flyer can be found at:
Pilgrims Covenant Church - Witness at Cornerstone
http://pccmonroe.org/Updates/2006.07.07.htm
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2006-07-21 14:50:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Fisher
the truth is, they never mentioned womens hair at all.
Yeah, I misquoted them unintentionally, subsequently apologized
for doing so, and quoted what is, as far as I can tell, actual transcribe
text from their flier. Indeed, their only hair-related complaint was
that the men had long hair (which is, of course, no less ridiculous).
Post by Eric Fisher
the real question is how you reconcile the fact that you say, "At some
point you've just got to trust that people are what they say they are
until they do something to violate that trust."
and then you take a group that states a concern that a fest is
dishonering god and blow them off with a statement that ignores almost
everything they say and says they said something they didn't?
I'm getting the idea that you're not able, or perhaps not willing,
to have an intellectually honest argument. My statement that you
quoted was in regard to digging up dirt on bands. You keep focusing
on a misquote that I apologized for and corrected.

And why is it that you're so willing to take the shallow, biased, and
under-informed opinions of a group of protestors at face value, while
at the same time wanting to know all about the personal flaws and failures
of bands before you'll listen to them? Whatever happened to "love
believes the best"?

Those protestors (and you, in your dirt-digging), seem to want to focus
on everything that's wrong (or that might, possibly, be wrong; or even
that just doesn't look like what you think "right" looks like). I choose
to believe the best. Not in a naive way - I understand that people sin,
people screw up, people let you down; that's inevitable. But the
important thing is what happens after that. Maybe that's the lesson
you should be teaching these junior high girls you mentioned, rather
than digging around looking for dirt and hoping to find a band that's
clean enough.
Post by Eric Fisher
the truth is, while i disagreed with their conclusions, i think a
christian of integrity would look at their concerns and use it as a
valuable opportunity to show gods love back, and to check ourselves,
rather than just laugh at them and puff up with pride. we took them
seriously were thankful for their concern and how it brought us into
check with god, as we kicked off the week.
Good for you. I never saw them personally - they weren't there when
we arrived. If I'd seen them, I wouldn't have harassed them. I was
very disappointed to hear that some people gave them a hard time. I
was happy to hear that people talked to them and were kind to them,
and I was pleased that the Cornerstone web people gave them a forum
to make their concerns known (even if the decision was ultimately
made to not post the interview on the website, which a lot of people
involved were apparently disappointed about).

At the same time, though, while I agree that we should treat all people
with basic courtesy and love, I think it's OK to recognize that their
ideas are wrong. I'm 35 years old - should I still be wringing my
hands and rending my garments every time somebody tells me that my
hair's too long? NO! I dealt with that issue 15 years ago, and I'm
confident in my conclusion.
Post by Eric Fisher
1. that god was being dishonored.
- are you saying god was never dishonored at cornerstone?
Nope, I already said that I'M SURE that wherever thousands of people
gather, something is done that dishonors God. Heck, I'M SURE that
wherever ONE person is, something is done that dishonors God. I don't
need protestors with signs to tell me that. I think there's probably
more going on at Cornerstone that HONORS God than in a lot of other
places, so why protest Cornerstone? Why not "Lollapalooza Dishonors
God" or "Peoria Dishonors God"?
Post by Eric Fisher
2. false doctrines were taught
- since you didn't go to the seminars i'll help you on this one. i can
say this has to be true just by the fact that i attended 2 seminars that
taught opposing doctrines that cancelled each other out as being true. i
don't even need to make a judgement to testify this is true.
There's a wide variety of thought at the festival. Some of it I agree
with, some of it I don't. I like that the fest respects my intelligence
and ability to discern and decide what's right and what's wrong. As for
specifics, well, like I said, I didn't go to any seminars.

But here's a news flash for you - that stuff about men with long hair
dishonoring God? THAT'S FALSE DOCTRINE!
Post by Eric Fisher
3. "Ecumenical and even New Age religion is common fare."
- this is true. (i heard evidences of this at concerts.)
Examples?
Post by Eric Fisher
4. "Tattooing and body piercing are accepted and approved."
- true, and they have every right to understand scripture as frowning
upon this. (even if my kid just got a tattoo and i told him he could
pierce his nose.)- a concern for the average christian parent who send
their kid, unaware of this. i went with a guy who did "tentside
piercings" a few years ago, and didn't even think about the poor girl
who got swept up in the weekend, got tattooed and went home to parents
who probably disowned her. thanks for the concern, picketers! wow,
there's a wake-up call i needed.
How dare these Christians be accepting of people different than they are!

What you say seems hypocritical, though. How can you support their
anti-tattooing/piercing stance, and yet let your kid get tattoos and
piercings? That makes no sense to me (no tattoos and piercings here,
and never will be...).
Post by Eric Fisher
5. "Young women immodestly dressed and men with long hair are
commonplace."
- true, i was one of those men. and i have heard glenn kaiser talk about
how the "Young women immodestly dressed" at c-stone can be a problem. do
you know his connection to the fest? if so, enough said.
The only "immodestly dressed" young women that I saw were some pre-teens
or young teens going to shows in bathing suits (presumably straight from
the beach). I think what the protestors consider immodest, and what
Glenn considers immodest, and what I consider immodest are probably
different things.
Post by Eric Fisher
6. "Cornerstone features ungodly, worldly music. Many of the songs have
nonsensical—in a few cases, obscene—lyrics."
- i think we just saw you post "not all "music by Christians" is even
"pastoral," or remotely relevant to Christianity." and "most of the
songs on the Mute Math album" "could have been written by ANYBODY,
Christian or not." - that's a legitimate concern for parents that send
their kids with a youth group, thinking they're gonna be just hearing
music with a "christian" message. (fyi: mute math: hm stage- thursday -
1030pm.)
You're twisting my words, I think, inasmuch as I can make any sense out
of what you're saying.

As for the protestors, I'd like to hear examples of these nonsensical
lyrics (and who cares if they're nonsensical, anyway? do they protest
nursery rhymes, too?) and obscene lyrics (a problem, if they exist,
something I'm not so sure about).

As for what you're saying, this is an age-old debate. I wasn't saying
that there was ANYTHING wrong with Christians writing music that doesn't
have a Christian message, so don't try to make it sound like I was.

And by the way, you've got your facts wrong - Mute Math was scheduled for
the HM stage for 10:00-10:45 on Thursday. (Of course, their setup and
sound check went long, so it was more like 10:20 before they started.)
I was at the show. It was my favorite of the fest. I'm not sure what
point you're trying to make.
Post by Eric Fisher
7. we need to be "worshipping Him in the beauty of holiness."
- i am pretty sure i have sat in on more than one glenn kaiser seminar
where he said exactly the same thing.
So what? I'm not saying that everything they said was wrong. They're
hurting their cause by adding so much stupid baggage to whatever valid
points they've got. (I'm willing to bet that the protestors definition
of "worshipping Him in the beauty of holiness" is different from that
of Glenn Kaiser, though...)
Post by Eric Fisher
8. they showed "movies which many unsaved parents would not want their
young people to watch. For instance, this year featured a "Days of the
Dead" line-up of movies."
- true, i watched "donnie darko", which definitely would fit this
category, among others. and witnessed a young girl walking away after
the viewing, cursing god in the most vile terms imaginable. if you are
unaware of this film, feel free to check it out. i had 3 teens i was
with, tell me i may need to keep a high school kid i brought from seeing
this movie.
Again, so what? Did Cornerstone become a day care center when I wasn't
looking?
Post by Eric Fisher
my point has nothing to do with agreement with their conclusions. it has
everything to do with the fact that they have many valid, (and valuable,
for those who will listen) concerns from folks who are trying to be what
they feel god wants them to be.
If they're sincerely that concerned about the souls of those long-haired,
immodestly dressed, tattooed, pierced movie watchers wandering the
grounds, why not actually come in and talk with them, instead of standing
outside throwing accusations from poster board?

It seems to me that it all comes down to "you don't look and act like us,
and we're not going to stand for it." I don't have a lot of time for
that, honestly.
Post by Eric Fisher
the official link from those who were at the gate, and the message from
Pilgrims Covenant Church - Witness at Cornerstone
http://pccmonroe.org/Updates/2006.07.07.htm
Seems an odd definition of "ministry," standing on a streetcorner holding
up a sign.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
Eric Fisher
2006-07-21 20:44:36 UTC
Permalink
jerry, if you wanna talk about integrity, and why this conversation is
done... this is a relevent part of the discussion in this thread.

eric:
i've done lessons on everyones "good stuff" including "nine inch nails",

eric:
personally, i am always looking for mainstream artists who are writing
good stuff.

erc:
i enjoy all sorts of stuff. "nine inch nails" and "janes addiction" are
often in my "floating top 5". ...........

you keep ignoring this, and responding as if i am saying something i am
not. why? are you trying to give yourself a platform so you can go after
a bogeyman of yours? so yes, i am probably out of ways to discuss this
with you.

then you post
There were protestors at Cornerstone whose "honest concern" was that the
boys had long hair and the girls had short hair.
JRjr
..
which obviously was ignoring all of their concerns except one line in
the middle of the letter, they obviously had many concerns, almost all
of which, they obviously had bigger problems with then the piece you
tagged as
whole "honest concern".

then you try to call me out as being in the wrong. so yea, i am probably
out of ways to discuss this with you.

since you have taken this discussion where i was seeking ideas on how to
connect with christian artists who are serious about their platform as
examples, who share their growth and struggles with others, who can talk
about how theyve avoided some of the sins theyve been tempted with, and
you have reduced it to a personal platform where you can take dishonest
swpes, with half truths at anyone who looks at the deeper questions. so
i think youre right about this discussion between you and i being over.

in truth, that was the intended purpose originally fought for by the
artists who started this journey into the fringe. terry taylor, michael
roe, bill mallonee, mike knott, etc. i think i'll follow their lead and
keep searching and asking, yes, even the deeper issues.

but you have not been of any assistance, so i think youre right about
this discussion between you and i being over.
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2006-07-22 14:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Fisher
jerry, if you wanna talk about integrity, and why this conversation is
done... this is a relevent part of the discussion in this thread.
Hopefully you'll explain WHY it's relevant. You keep talking about
mainstream artists and Nine Inch Nails and stuff, and I've yet to
figure out what relevance it has to the conversation at hand. I'm
ignoring it for one and only one reason: I don't understand what point
you're trying to make by saying it.
Post by Eric Fisher
which obviously was ignoring all of their concerns except one line in
the middle of the letter, they obviously had many concerns, almost all
of which, they obviously had bigger problems with then the piece you
tagged as
whole "honest concern".
I didn't say it was their ONLY honest concern, but that was the one
that stuck out in my mind. (As you recall, I subsequently posted
all of the text that I had at hand, which listed several other concerns,
but they weren't prioritized and the long hair thing was early in the
list of complaints.)
Post by Eric Fisher
since you have taken this discussion where i was seeking ideas on how to
connect with christian artists who are serious about their platform as
examples, who share their growth and struggles with others, who can talk
about how theyve avoided some of the sins theyve been tempted with, and
you have reduced it to a personal platform where you can take dishonest
swpes, with half truths at anyone who looks at the deeper questions. so
i think youre right about this discussion between you and i being over.
You're a passive aggressive liar. I haven't taken any swipes, dishonest
or otherwise. I haven't (intentionally) posted any half-truths, and the
one mistake I did make, I promptly corrected to the best of my ability.

As for your question about how to find artists that meet your criteria
(and recall, you're the one that brought the whole idea of digging up
dirt from those hyper-fundie "anti-rock" sites into the discussion, which
frankly disgusts me), I have no idea how to do that. I don't know how
else to tell you that I DON'T HAVE, NOR DO I WANT, NOR DO I NEED PERSONAL
INSIDE INFORMATION ON THE ARTISTS THAT I LISTEN TO. I don't understand
why you keep harping on the fact that I haven't given you a list of
"approved artists" as some sort of personal failing on my part.

Why not read some interviews (CCM Magazine, HM Magazine, maybe the
Phantom Tollbooth), check out some blogs (at band websites or MySpace),
or e-mail them yourelf and ask them whatever questions you want to know?

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2006-07-20 21:11:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Fisher
Post by Eric Fisher
1. ...There were protestors at Cornerstone whose "honest concern" was
that the boys had long hair and the girls had short hair.
2.I really think you need to get away from being so focused on what
somebody might have said or done...
1. this statement is a flat out malicious lie.
OK, I'm rapidly heading toward "nothing left to say to you" territory here.

I don't have a copy of the flier, though I read the whole thing and watched
an interview that some CStone web people did with the protestors. For
those that weren't there, there were apparently at least two groups doing
some protesting at Cornerstone.

One group was outside the gates on Tuesday. They apparently drove in
from Wisconsin to protest, with signs along the lines of "Cornerstone
dishonors God." As far as I know, they were only there on Tuesday.
Reactions ran the gamut - some people responded inappropriately, yelling
at them and harassing them. Others took them food and water and talked
to them about their point of view.

Here's an excerpt I was able to dig up at a moment's notice. I apologize
for adding the "women with short hair" thing - it was not my intent to
mislead. The women were instead "immodestly dressed," along with those
pesky long haired men: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vapspwi/188464610/

"Everything about Cornerstone Festival screams 'world' and
consequently rebellion to the commands of our Lord. Ecumenical and
even New Age religion is common fare. Tattooing and body piercing are
accepted and approved. Young women immodestly dressed and men with
long hair are commonplace. Ungodly, improper movies are shown. This
year, Cornerstone is holding 'Days of the Dead' celebrations complete
with films such as The Body Snatcher. How can those taking part in
such things glorify God in their bodies and spirits? How can those
taking part claim to be 'A chosen people; that ye should shew forth
the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his
marvellous light' (1 Peter 2:9)?

Cornerstone features ungodly, worldly music. Many of the songs have
nonsensical-in a few cases, obscene-lyrics. Many of the singers ape
the world's ways as they jerk, gyrate, and screech out those lyrics to
ear-splitting music. Such musical performances glorify immature,
worldly performers and appeal to the flesh, but they are not holy, and
they do not glorify God Those who take part in such sessions are
mocking God in an ugly, worldly way rather than worshiping Him in the
beauty of holiness."

Here's a blog from the other group that was protesting, in a way, at
Cornerstone: http://www.lightingtheway.blogspot.com/ (Boy, what
a brave and bold stand, to go into the dark underworld of...a Christian
festival run by hippies, and hand out fliers...)

I'm not saying there's nothing bad that goes on at Cornerstone (you
get that many people in one place and there's bound to be some stuff
shouldn't be going on). I'm not really familiar with what goes on in
the seminars. Probably some teaching that I wouldn't agree with.

But it these groups' focus on appearances is troubling to me. Their
claims are undermined by hyperbolic writing straight out of those
"axe to grind" hyper-fundie web sites we talked about earlier ("they
jerk, gyrate, and screech out those lyrics to ear-splitting music.").

What it appears to come down to, as Steve Taylor put it 20+ years ago, is
"if you want to be one of His, got to act like one of us!"
Post by Eric Fisher
i will not believe much
of anything you say if you don't clear this up. i, and others with me,
talked with them at the gate, im sitting here now with the flyer and i
have interacted with them via website. i am not sure why you feel you
need to trivialize and misrepresent those who are seeking righteousness.
You've read their fliers and seen their websites, and you think it's
ME that's trivializing and misrepresenting those who are seeking
righteousness? I think you've got it backwards. At best, that street
runs TWO ways.

Anyway, I think I'm done here.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
Eric Fisher
2006-07-20 19:41:59 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@cms.k12.nc.us (blues=A0disciple)
If I could attempt to paraphrase Eric's point, I would go to the
statement that the best sermon ever is one that is seen and not heard.
If a band promotes itself as Christians playing secular music, that's
cool---but only if their behavior reflects that Christian foundation. If
they say that and then live life on the road like many secular bands
(drinking, drugs, sex, etc.) or make statements in interviews that refer
to their secular lifestyle or are un-Christian, then they have shot
themselves in foot with both Christian and secular audiences. The same
goes for Christian artists who have very public incidents with substance
abuse or divorce due to adultery and so on......kinda makes the message
led authentic and their validity does suffer. Neither case is going to
make being a Christian any different than not being one and will make
non-believers even more skeptical and scare them away or serve to
confirm their already negative perceptions.
In many cases Christian "media stars" are our own worst enemies----just
mention some names like Jim Bakker, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggert and
you know what I mean. Such public downfalls and scandals just play right
into the non-believer's hands. Or what about political Christian
activities like bombing abortion centers and rants against movies like
The DaVinci Code or against anybody who declares themselve a Democrat
and so on. If I was a non-believer, why would I want to declare myself
Christian and be part of such a judgemental, extreme and hypocritical
group of people?

<><><><><<>

absolutely! thank you.
i enjoy all sorts of stuff. "nine inch nails" and "janes addiction" are
often in my "floating top 5".

however, i am at times in a position to promote christian bands, and
would rather be able to find those who are gonna be a little
christ-like. i know, it's a novel idea. maybe we need an "industry"? lol
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2006-07-20 20:56:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Fisher
however, i am at times in a position to promote christian bands, and
would rather be able to find those who are gonna be a little
christ-like. i know, it's a novel idea. maybe we need an "industry"? lol
I said it before and I'll say it again, an "industry" composed of people
who don't sin is going to be very small.

I don't go around digging for dirt on the Christian bands that I like, but
it's been my experience that the majority of them are sincerely trying to
live Christian lives. I can't really hold them to a standard any higher
than that without being a hypocrite.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
CMM
2006-07-20 20:57:01 UTC
Permalink
On 20 Jul 2006 11:01:17 -0700, "blues disciple"
Post by blues disciple
If I could attempt to paraphrase Eric's point, I would go to the
statement that the best sermon ever is one that is seen and not heard.
If a band promotes itself as Christians playing secular music, that's
cool---but only if their behavior reflects that Christian foundation.
If they say that and then live life on the road like many secular bands
(drinking, drugs, sex, etc.) or make statements in interviews that
refer to their secular lifestyle or are un-Christian, then they have
shot themselves in foot with both Christian and secular audiences. The
same goes for Christian artists who have very public incidents with
substance abuse or divorce due to adultery and so on......kinda makes
the message led authentic and their validity does suffer. Neither case
is going to make being a Christian any different than not being one and
will make non-believers even more skeptical and scare them away or
serve to confirm their already negative perceptions.
Scott Stapp comes to mind...

I do agree that Christianity is a lifestyle, not simply a bumper
sticker or WWJD? keychain.
Post by blues disciple
One of my own bandmates joked about Christian blues one time
about it not being "real"---how can you have the blues if your
Christian was similar to his comment.
I think I've heard something similar. But, wasn't Jesus Himself a man
of sorrows? {:o)

-- Christian
Rufus Leaking
2006-07-20 22:49:22 UTC
Permalink
One of my own bandmates joked about Christian blues one time
Post by blues disciple
about it not being "real"---how can you have the blues if your
Christian was similar to his comment.
This is just a specious argument. It beggars the thought that as
Christians we're all "sweetness and light" all the time, and of course
ignores that quite a lot of the early blues took its form from the
gospel players such as Blind Wille Johnson and others. Today they are
often mentioned as blues poineers when in fact (especially in BWJ's
case they hated the secular bluesmen's lifestyle) they were anything
but.

But the blues is usually a way of music that takes unhappiness and
unhappy situations and turns them around to the good, so PLAY ON
BROTHER!!!!!!!


then again, what the heck do I know, I like that supposedly most
satanic band Led Zeppelin. Apparently people like my HS friends the
Peters borthers and others who back all tha backward masking crap never
bothered to hear In MY Time off Dying or In The Light....
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2006-07-20 18:26:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by CMM
I think the problem is that Christian bookstores and Christian radio
(by-and-large) won't carry bands that are Christians but fall outside
of the CCM niche.
With a few exceptions. I've seen stuff like Lifehouse and Collective
Soul in Christian bookstores, which always seemed a little weird to me.
It also kind of annoyed me, because if I wanted those CDs, I could
get them anywhere; it's not like I can find the Lost Dogs or the
Violet Burning in any old Wal-Mart or Best Buy.
Post by CMM
It seems that if it's on a CCM label, it'll be
carried even if the words are not overtly Christian. And, if it's on a
secular label, it won't be carried even if the words *are* overtly
Christian. I think the focus rarely makes it beyond how the band is
marketed.
That's exactly the term I've used in describing the "CCM" term in the
past. It really all comes down to marketing. To me, "CCM" bands
are usually on Christian labels, sold in Christian bookstores, covered
in Christian magazines, and played on Christian radio. That definition
isn't as clear cut as it was a few years ago, but it's still pretty good.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
Jeff Edwards
2006-07-20 18:44:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
With a few exceptions. I've seen stuff like Lifehouse and Collective
Soul in Christian bookstores, which always seemed a little weird to me.
It also kind of annoyed me, because if I wanted those CDs, I could
get them anywhere; it's not like I can find the Lost Dogs or the
Violet Burning in any old Wal-Mart or Best Buy.
But what about the huge personal satisfaction you would get from buying
them at FCS for $17.98 instead of at Wal-Mart for $12.98?

-Jeff
Eric Fisher
2006-07-20 19:54:34 UTC
Permalink
to the blues fans:

repost from :
Artists & Accountability
Group: rec.music.christian Date: Sat, Jul 15, 2006, 5:22pm From:
***@webtv.net (Eric=A0Fisher)

okay,
for any lurkers who may have gotten the impression that there are no
good examples out there, i'll start the ball rolling in the "artsts who
have shown christian integrity". of course one cannot speak for every
area of life, or know what has occurred since last checked, and
obviously, opinions will vary, but here goes...

glenn kaiser has been a good example of one who expects personal
accountability within a community of fellow-believers. he has a new cd
out on grrr records called "bound for glory". see: www.grrrrecords.com
=A0=A0this is a collection of traditional hymns and spirituals. glenn
has recorded a large catalog of excellent blues based rock, praise, etc.
from the resurrection band, rez, glenn kaiser band, and solo projects.
=A0=A0he also has a new book coming out called "kissng the sky" a field
guide for christian musicians, that will, no doubt, be infused with a
passion for ministry and authenticity. see: www.cornerstoneprss.com

(ps: the violet burning are magic!)
<><><>>><>
blues disciple
2006-07-20 23:37:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Fisher
Artists & Accountability
okay,
for any lurkers who may have gotten the impression that there are no
good examples out there, i'll start the ball rolling in the "artsts who
have shown christian integrity". of course one cannot speak for every
area of life, or know what has occurred since last checked, and
obviously, opinions will vary, but here goes...
glenn kaiser has been a good example of one who expects personal
accountability within a community of fellow-believers. he has a new cd
out on grrr records called "bound for glory". see: www.grrrrecords.com
this is a collection of traditional hymns and spirituals. glenn
has recorded a large catalog of excellent blues based rock, praise, etc.
from the resurrection band, rez, glenn kaiser band, and solo projects.
he also has a new book coming out called "kissng the sky" a field
guide for christian musicians, that will, no doubt, be infused with a
passion for ministry and authenticity. see: www.cornerstoneprss.com
(ps: the violet burning are magic!)
I totally agree. Glenn Kaiser is unbelievable. Awesome music....
great message....fine example for all of us too. Unfortunately, I
can't find any his CD's anywhere. I have bought one as a rare find one
day. Why can't Christian Bookstores or general CD stores carry at
least the "Big Four" of Christian Blues---Glenn Kaiser, Larry Howard,
Larry Norman and Darrell Mansfield? That would be a drastic
improvement!
Post by Eric Fisher
<><><>>><>
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2006-07-20 23:59:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by blues disciple
I totally agree. Glenn Kaiser is unbelievable. Awesome music....
great message....fine example for all of us too. Unfortunately, I
can't find any his CD's anywhere. I have bought one as a rare find one
day.
Stores are so 20th century. :-) You can satisfy all your Glenn Kaiser
(and REZ, among others) needs here: http://www.grrrrecords.com/store/

Reasonable prices, CDs or MP3 downloads, etc. Good times.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
Eric Fisher
2006-07-21 08:20:32 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@cms.k12.nc.us (blues=A0disciple)
Glenn Kaiser is unbelievable. Awesome music.... great message....fine
example for all of us too. Unfortunately, I can't find any his CD's
anywhere. I have bought one as a rare find one day. Why can't Christian
Bookstores or general CD stores carry at least the "Big Four" of
Christian Blues---Glenn Kaiser, Larry Howard, Larry Norman and Darrell
Mansfield? That would be a drastic improvement!
<><><>>><>

absolutely. these 4 are certainly worth a mint. also, they are fine
exames of believers who have shared their struggles, and the God that
brought them through. i'l have to admit, i've talked a lot more with
glenn than the others, but darrell has a wonderfully valuable story,
especially for those who have struggled with serious depression. (and
man he's an awesome and "charismatic" live musician)
Michael A. Vickers
2006-07-21 14:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by blues disciple
I totally agree. Glenn Kaiser is unbelievable. Awesome music....
great message....fine example for all of us too.
It bums me thoroughly that Resurrection Band did put out another album
after _Lament_. I thoroughly enjoyed that album and thought they may be
on their way back up.

How does Glenn's body of work compare?


Michael
Rufus Leaking
2006-07-21 19:18:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by blues disciple
Post by blues disciple
I totally agree. Glenn Kaiser is unbelievable. Awesome music....
great message....fine example for all of us too. Unfortunately, I
can't find any his CD's anywhere.
It's been some time since I've checked in on GK's web site, but I seem
to remember them being offered or linked "where to buy" at least some
of his and RB's stuff...




Why can't Christian Bookstores or general CD stores carry at
Post by blues disciple
least the "Big Four" of Christian Blues---Glenn Kaiser, Larry Howard,
Larry Norman and Darrell Mansfield? That would be a drastic
improvement!
At least as far as Larry Norman, it's probably because he has his own
distribution tied into his official website and handles (or his people)
all the merchandising that way. Great to see he has some of his vinyl
stuff still around there for us folk who love to spin platters, not to
mention the far bigger artwork/covers, LOL

BUt the above artists seem to be too iconoclastic for the mainstream
ccm sellers, much to the dismay of music lovers. I've one friend in
particular who is not a christian and denigrates almost all the pop ccm
as being "too weak in the bottowm" which is to say not enough bass, but
when I throw on some old Larry H or N he listens and likes the music,
if not the message.

Hey, a work in process, LOL as I've gotten this friend to at least come
around to believing in God, so I keep chipping away at that stone, and
it would sure help if I had some (as defined by friend) "good" music to
help sawy the vote...
David Bruce Murray
2006-07-21 22:55:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by blues disciple
day. Why can't Christian Bookstores or general CD stores carry at
least the "Big Four" of Christian Blues---Glenn Kaiser, Larry Howard,
Larry Norman and Darrell Mansfield? That would be a drastic
improvement!
Post by Eric Fisher
<><><>>><>
Well, sure, but they have to carry what people will buy. Otherwise, it just
takes up money by sitting on the shelf.

Sadly, most of what is sold these days sounds like it came from a cookie
cutter. If I went five years hearing no songs with a rhythm acoustic guitar
strumming a boring rhythm over the "Heart and Soul" chord progression in
slow motion, while a wailing "worship leader" "sings" the same lyric forty
times, it would be fine by me.

Give me music where they still know what it means to lay down rhythm AND
flashy instrumental fills, surprise you with unexpected chord changes, and
sing like they have had at least a shred of vocal training. We have some of
the whiniest, sappiest, junk posing as first quality music right now.
--
David Bruce Murray is still "Making hay while the sun shines"
CD Reviews/BLOG: www.musicscribe.com/blog.html
"He that cannot reason is a fool. He that will not is a bigot. He that dare
not is a slave."---Andrew Carnegie
Andrew Kerr
2006-07-21 23:25:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
Well, sure, but they have to carry what people will buy. Otherwise, it
just takes up money by sitting on the shelf.
Sadly, most of what is sold these days sounds like it came from a cookie
cutter. If I went five years hearing no songs with a rhythm acoustic
guitar strumming a boring rhythm over the "Heart and Soul" chord
progression in slow motion, while a wailing "worship leader" "sings" the
same lyric forty times, it would be fine by me.
Give me music where they still know what it means to lay down rhythm AND
flashy instrumental fills, surprise you with unexpected chord changes,
and sing like they have had at least a shred of vocal training. We have
some of the whiniest, sappiest, junk posing as first quality music right
now.
Who's calling the stuff the praise & worship industry puts out "first
quality music"? Deep down they must know it's bland, repetitive pablum.
Unfortunately it's what's selling these days.

I just picked up "Freaks" today. I've only listened to the first song
but it sounds pretty cool.

Andrew
David Bruce Murray
2006-07-22 00:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Kerr
We have some of the whiniest, sappiest, junk posing as first quality
music right now.
Who's calling the stuff the praise & worship industry puts out "first
quality music"?
Hence my use of the word "posing."

But to answer your question, the ones calling it first quality are the
people who are buying it in droves and don't know any better.
--
David Bruce Murray is still "Making hay while the sun shines"
CD Reviews/BLOG: www.musicscribe.com/blog.html
"He that cannot reason is a fool. He that will not is a bigot. He that dare
not is a slave."---Andrew Carnegie
Rufus Leaking
2006-07-22 11:53:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Bruce Murray
Sadly, most of what is sold these days sounds like it came from a cookie
cutter.
Well this is also the state of most secular music as well these days. I
wouldn't say it's quite as bad as the 50's but pretty close.
CMM
2006-07-26 16:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Here's some feedback on that article:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/music/features/yourfeedback.html

-- Christian
Post by CMM
http://www.christianitytoday.com/music/commentaries/howtofixccm.html
I agree with it.
-- Christian
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2006-07-26 17:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by CMM
http://www.christianitytoday.com/music/features/yourfeedback.html
Bah. Mostly the same old crap that we've been arguing here in this
newsgroup and elsewhere for the last 15 years and beyond. Some (most?)
Christians just can't a purpose for music beyond evangelism, either
directly (message in the music) or indirectly (get them to the show,
then hit 'em with the Gospel at the merch table). I wonder if the oft-
mentioned "Christian plumber" feels the same pressure from Christian
society to evangelize with his work, either directly (install toilets
with the plan of salvation on the seat) or indirectly (do the plumbing,
then hit 'em with the Gospel when you hand them the bill).

"Why are they ashamed to be Christians?" is a common theme, and there's
also a bit of related naivity about how accepting mainstream culture
is of anything with a hint of Christianity about it. (I've been
googling Mute Math a lot lately, and coming across blogs and message
boards that seem to follow a similar pattern - somebody talks about
how awesome the band is, somebody else points out that they're
Christians/used to be in Earthsuit/are a "Christian rock band," then
there's a lot of bashing, and sometimes somebody will say "well, they
aren't preachy" and it'll end up at a wary "they're awesome, but
I'm not sure about 'em..." kind of stance.)

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
Jeff Edwards
2006-07-26 17:59:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Some (most?)
Christians just can't a purpose for music beyond evangelism, either
directly (message in the music) or indirectly (get them to the show,
then hit 'em with the Gospel at the merch table).
I don't think it's most, but in certain circles there's a high
percentage. I hear less of the full-court press on evangelism in
culture from my fellow 30-somethings - I saw a lot more of it from peers
when I was younger - maybe influence of certain churches or parents
trying to insulate them.

I always think back to years ago (junior high maybe?) where I had one
friend who had cultural hangups, but so selectively that it was comical.
He would refer to some book or music or something that I was enjoying
and tell me "if it isn't for the glory of God, it shouldn't be done."
My response was always something along the lines of "OK, then I guess we
better shut off this video game we're playing, cancel the plans to go
see a movie later and do our best to avoid television from now on."

-Jeff
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2006-07-26 18:42:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Edwards
I don't think it's most, but in certain circles there's a high
percentage. I hear less of the full-court press on evangelism in
culture from my fellow 30-somethings - I saw a lot more of it from peers
when I was younger - maybe influence of certain churches or parents
trying to insulate them.
I'm guessing it's still pretty high among the readership of Christianity
Today, which is where those comments that were linked came from.
Post by Jeff Edwards
I always think back to years ago (junior high maybe?) where I had one
friend who had cultural hangups, but so selectively that it was comical.
When I was younger, in college and just out of youth group, I was still
working and hanging out with youth in my small church. The church gave
me a lot of crap for listening to Petra and Stryper and stuff like that,
and the youth actually went to a Bill Gothard seminar and came back
indoctrinated...selectively. What they seemed to take away from it was
that Petra and Stryper were evil, because they were putting Christian
words to a demonic beat, and should therefore be avoided. But stuff
like Guns'n'Roses was OK, because they weren't trying to "Christianize"
the rock and roll.
Post by Jeff Edwards
He would refer to some book or music or something that I was enjoying
and tell me "if it isn't for the glory of God, it shouldn't be done."
My response was always something along the lines of "OK, then I guess we
better shut off this video game we're playing, cancel the plans to go
see a movie later and do our best to avoid television from now on."
I vividly remember having somebody lay that line on me. I met some
other Christians here at Georgia Tech, and we went to the Russ Taff show
(with the Choir opening, first time I'd ever heard them, circa 1989)
together. We were among the first people at the general admission show,
and COULD have sat down front, but these sticks-in-the-mud wanted to
sit all the way in the back, so I went along with them.

While we were waiting on the show, the topic of hobbies came up. I
collected (and still collect) comic books, and back then, it was around
the time of the issue of _Dr. Strange, Sorceror Supreme_ (a fantasy
comic from Marvel Comics, generally pretty tame) that had the Amy
Grant cover. (The artist had used a spooky photo of Amy's face from
_The Collection_, doctored to have vampire fangs, as the background
of the cover of the comic.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Collection_(Amy_Grant_album)

So that came up, and the guy I was with was like "why are you reading
that stuff" and I was like "I dunno, entertainment." He then said
WTTE of "if it isn't for the glory of God, you shouldn't do it."
Something to think about, I guess, but depending on how narrow your
definition of "for the glory of God" is (and I daresay that anybody
that would say that would also have a pretty narrow definition), you're
going to have a pretty hard time living your life from day to day.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
Jeff Edwards
2006-07-26 19:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
What they seemed to take
away from it was that Petra and Stryper were evil, because they were
putting Christian words to a demonic beat, and should therefore be
avoided. But stuff like Guns'n'Roses was OK, because they weren't
trying to "Christianize" the rock and roll.
Now that's a new one. Were they OK with porn as long as there were no
Christian starlets? :)
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
(The artist had used a spooky photo of Amy's face
from _The Collection_, doctored to have vampire fangs, as the
background of the cover of the comic.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Collection_(Amy_Grant_album)
I had not seen that before - funny. It says on wiki that the artist was
a fan of her work.
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
So that came up, and the guy I was with was like "why are you reading
that stuff" and I was like "I dunno, entertainment." He then said
WTTE of "if it isn't for the glory of God, you shouldn't do it."
Something to think about, I guess, but depending on how narrow your
definition of "for the glory of God" is (and I daresay that anybody
that would say that would also have a pretty narrow definition),
you're going to have a pretty hard time living your life from day to
day.
Exactly - it's in the definition, and is a line we all draw at different
places. That's really what it comes down to - I hate it when other
humans try to draw that line for me.

-Jeff
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2006-07-26 22:10:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Edwards
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
But stuff like Guns'n'Roses was OK, because they weren't
trying to "Christianize" the rock and roll.
Now that's a new one. Were they OK with porn as long as there were no
Christian starlets? :)
Honestly, it was like 1989-1990, and in those pre-web days, porn was
a lot harder to come by (ouch, pun not intended), so it wasn't really
an issue like it is now. A stash of Penthouses in your dad's closet
was about as good as it got. :-)

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
CMM
2006-07-27 15:04:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
"if it isn't for the glory of God, you shouldn't do it."
Something to think about, I guess, but depending on how narrow your
definition of "for the glory of God" is (and I daresay that anybody
that would say that would also have a pretty narrow definition), you're
going to have a pretty hard time living your life from day to day.
Just to give an indication of how narrow, I was once told that
listening to classical music (Mozart, Bach, etc.) without lyrics was
wrong because there were no words to give glory to God.

-- Christian
Eric Fisher
2006-07-27 19:24:04 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@hotmail.com (CMM)
Just to give an indication of how narrow, I was once told that listening
to classical music (Mozart, Bach, etc.) without lyrics was wrong because
there were no words to give glory to God.
-- Christian
<><><><>

and don't forget to add to the mix, those who believe "christian music"
should not have music at all, except for the voice.
there really is a wide, very wide, range of convictions in this area. i
am very familiar with the earlier-mentioned idea that it's better to
listen to a non-Christian than a christian that is doing something
wrong, (be it style, lyrics, life, etc.).

maybe each of us are at a different point in what we need to hear, or
not hear? hopefully we are all growing. i think the biblical teaching
about not causing the "weaker brother" to stumble applies in our own
situations also.
(the catch is that we cannot be claiming to be the weaker brother all
our lives in an attempt to dictate the actions of others.)

anyway... that's my take on it this day.
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
2006-07-27 20:49:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Fisher
maybe each of us are at a different point in what we need to hear, or
not hear?
That's certainly true.
Post by Eric Fisher
hopefully we are all growing. i think the biblical teaching
about not causing the "weaker brother" to stumble applies in our own
situations also.
(the catch is that we cannot be claiming to be the weaker brother all
our lives in an attempt to dictate the actions of others.)
Indeed, that IS a big catch that some people use to try to tell other
people how they should behave. (Others invoke a mythical "third person"
weaker brother to the same end.)

The other wrinkle, as I see it, is that sometimes there IS no "weaker
brother" and no stumbling. How should we handle situations where
the other party really is wrong in their conviction and is just trying
to Bible-boss other people around? That's where things really get sticky.

JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~jr70 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
Jeff Edwards
2006-07-27 21:20:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
The other wrinkle, as I see it, is that sometimes there IS no "weaker
brother" and no stumbling. How should we handle situations where
the other party really is wrong in their conviction and is just trying
to Bible-boss other people around? That's where things really get sticky.
As I was reading this, I immediately thought of my alma-mater: Baylor
University. To anyone unfamiliar, it is one of (if not the) largest
Baptist Universities in the world. I am not a Baptist, but hey, they
had scholarships...

Anyhow, it is variously known as "Jerusalem on the Brazos" or "The
largest Sunday School in the Southwest". It's not quite as extreme as
all that in reality, but there is something to it. The "Bible-boss"
thing takes many forms. I used to remark to my then-girlfriend, now-
wife that I avoided walking past the Baptist student union for fear
someone would throw a Bible at me - and this is coming from a Christian.
We had a looooooot of situations down there of no weaker brother in
sight just like you are talking about.

As for how to deal with it, well, I was probably not the stellar example
of that in college. My main method was just to avoid those particular
people when possible. It was a large and vocal subculture that was hard
to miss, and thus easy to spot and avoid.

-Jeff
Eric Fisher
2006-07-28 06:39:45 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@sbcglobal.net (Jeff=A0Edwards)
..As for how to deal with it, well, I was probably not the stellar
example of that in college. My main method was just to avoid those
particular people when possible. It was a large and vocal subculture
that was hard to miss, and thus easy to spot and avoid.
-Jeff
<><><><><>

actually, that may be the best way to deal with it in a lot of
situations. unless you have somehow "earned" the right to speak to the
situation, it often does more harm than good to get too involved in
"straightening out" someone in that mindset. a good thing to do, would
be to see if there may be something to what they're saying and address
that aspect of it first.
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