Royal Descents of Anne Talbot Darnall & Mary Talbot Salvin

[Brad Verity]

Thanks goes to John Brandon, who, back in 2003, first brought to the
newsgroup's attention the fact that Anne Talbot, the wife of Henry
Darnall III of Poplar Hill, Maryland (1702-c.1787), Attorney General
of Maryland 1744-1756, was likely the niece of Gilbert Talbot, 13th
Earl of Shrewsbury:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2003-10/1065830158

Thanks also goes to John Higgins, who just a few days ago, brought the
newsgroup's attention to the fact that Mary Talbot, wife of Thomas
Salvin of Easingwold (1703-1756), ancestors of the present Barons De
Mauley, was likely Anne's sister:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/6745864c8383c0a1

Further digging into this family group brings to light evidence that
firmly supports the conclusion that Anne Darnall and Mary Salvin were
sisters, the daughters of an Edward Talbot of Albrighton, and his wife
Anne, sister of Gilbert, the future 13th Earl of Shrewsbury.

In 1703, Anne and Edward Talbot of Albrighton gave back her 1,000
pound (marriage?) portion from the manor of Cooksey, Worcestershire,
to George Talbot of Cooksey. The Worcestershire Record Office
explains that Anne was the sister of Gilbert, 13th Earl of Shrewsbury,
and George Talbot of Cooksey was their brother:
29 Sep 1703 "Assignment from Edward Talbot of Albrighton, Salop, and
Anne his wife [daughter of Gilbert Talbot of Grafton] to George Talbot
of Cooksey [second son of Gilbert Talbot] of Anne's portion of £1000
from Cooksey. [The Duke (and 12th Earl) of Shrewsbury (d. 1717) was
succeeded as 13th Earl by his cousin, Fr Gilbert Talbot, first son of
Gilbert Talbot of Grafton (d. 1711). Although Fr Gilbert was legally
13th Earl, his younger brother George Talbot, sometime of Cooksey,
styled himself Earl of Shrewsbury. George predeceased his elder
brother, but was the ancestor of the 14th to the 17th Earls of
Shrewsbury.]" [Worcestershire Record Office/Earl of Shrewsbury and
Waterford/705/100/11768/7/7]
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=045-705-100&c...

On 7 May 1708, "Anne, wife of Mr Edward Talbot", was buried at St Mary
Magdalene Church, Albrighton, Shropshire.

In 1715 a census was taken of Catholic non-jurors throughout England,
and Edward Talbot, with his daughters Anne and Mary, were returned as
residing in a house called Bowling Green in Albrighton:
"Edward Talbot, of Albrighton, gent.--Moiety of house called the
'Bowling Green,' leased formerly by Charles, Duke of Shrewsbury, to
Hon. Gilbert Talbot; in possession of self and daughters, Anne and
Mary T."
http://archive.org/stream/englishcatholicn00estcuoft#page/220/mode/2up

In January 1719, in a provision to a petition submitted by George
Talbot & others regarding the estates of the late Duke of Shrewsbury,
George wanted the right to alienate some of the lands in order to
provide marriage portions for his nieces, Anne and Mary, daughters of
his sister Anne Talbot, who were both under the age of 21. This is
published in the 1859 case of 'The Earl of Shrewsbury v. James Robert
Hope Scott and others', found on Google Books here (the relevant
provision is Provision VI on pp. 69-70):
http://books.google.ca/books?id=EulNAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=Gilbert+Talbot+of+Batchcoate&source=bl&ots=tjefEvrI45&sig=tAA1lm82xafM1_feiZ2fE_DkKyg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SSJ_UPrNC-jUiwKzr4DoAg&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Gilbert%20Talbot%20of%20Batchcoate&f=false

In 1735, an indenture was entered into the Land Records of Prince
George's County, Maryland, which mentioned terms of the marriage
contract for Henry Darnall and Anne Talbot, which marriage is thought
to have occurred in about 1725. Note that the George, Earl of
Shrewsbury, mentioned as a party to the marriage contract was George
Talbot (1675-1733), formerly of Cooksey, the brother and heir of
Gilbert Talbot, 13th Earl of Shrewsbury. Because the 13th Earl was an
ordained Jesuit priest, all of the family estates went to George, who
styled himself earl of Shrewsbury though he predeceased his brother:
"2 Aug 1735; Indenture between Henry Darnall, Gent., son & heir
apparent of Henry Darnall, Esq., of the first part and Anne Darnall,
wife of sd. Henry Darnall, of the second part and Rt. Hon. George,
Earl of Shrewsbury and John Talbott of Longford in County of Salp,
Esq.; for consideration of a marriage between Henry Darnall and Anne
Darnall, his present wife, and £500 being the marriage portion; for
further consideration of £50 to Henry Darnall paid by George, Earl of
Shrewsbury; and further payment of £40 by John Talbott; indenture to
lease dated the day before this a tract called The Addition on the
west side of Piscattaway main branch; containing 949 acres together
with 300 acres called His Lordship's Kindness where the dwelling house
of sd. Henry Darnall now stands; also a tract called Toogood of 100
acres; also Pitchcroft (?) now in possession of Darnall; the whole
containing 300 acres (other part sold by the late Col. Darnall to
Henry Calvert and John Summers); also cattle, etc.; also Negroes named
Dick and Sarah his wife, Petre & Rose his wife and their 2 children;
also Sam & Jenny his wife and their 5 children; also old Nancy,
Marmaduke, George, Long Betty (?), Kate, girl Beck, boy Sam and boy
Jonny; all lately granted sd. Henry Darnall the younger by Henry
Darnall the father; /s/ Henry Darnall; wit. William Clifton, Robt.
Carroll"
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=mrmarsha&id=I03089

There is an article by Geoffrey Holt, entitled 'Gilbert Talbot and the
Talbot Case', published in 'Recusant History', Volume 24, Number 2
(October 1998). Though Holt mentions only two siblings for Gilbert
Talbot the 13th Earl: George & Mary, overlooking Anne, he does bring
up two interesting facts that support Anne Talbot Darnall and Mary
Talbot Salvin as nieces of the 13th Earl. The first is that there was
a strong push by the Jesuits during the 1730s and 1740s "to extend the
apostolate of the Maryland English Jesuit mission in Pennsylvania".
This helps to explain why a niece of Gilbert, the 13th Earl of
Shrewsbury, and his brother George, the acting earl, was given in
marriage to the son and heir of a leading Catholic planter in
Maryland. The other fact is that in the July 1743 will of the 13th
Earl ("there is a copy in AAW [Archives of the Archdiocese of
Westminster], R155/11/17"), he provided that his estate be divided
into moieties, one of which "I give and bequeath to all my several
nephews and nieces, equally to be divided amongst them share and share
alike". According to another document in the archives of the
Archdiocese of Westminster - R155/11/18 - there was a total of eleven
nephews and nieces. Per Collins's Peerage, George Talbot, the acting
earl of Shrewsbury & deceased brother of the testator, had 9 children:
6 sons & 3 daughters. The remaining two out of the 11 total thus had
to be Anne Talbot Darnall & Mary Talbot Salvin, daughters of Anne, the
13th Earl's sister, as he had no other surviving siblings.

The documentary evidence is thus very strong for Anne Talbot, wife of
Henry Darnall of Maryland, being a niece of the 13th Earl of
Shrewsbury, and a great-granddaughter of the 10th Earl of Shrewsbury.
As descendants of Edward III who immigrated to the New World are
relatively rare, she should definitely be included on the list of
those who did, especially as she herself had descendants in Maryland
for at least several generations.

Leo has the grandfather of Anne Talbot Darnall in his database here,
with an incorrect date of death:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00104874&tree=LEO

Before I lay out the descents from Edward III for Anne Talbot Darnall
and her sister Mary Talbot Salvin, I want to provide more detail on
their mother's immediate family:

Hon. Gilbert Talbot of Badge Court House, born about 1631, was a
younger son of the 10th Earl of Shrewsbury and his 1st wife, Mary
Fortescue. He is described as "of Batchcoate" throughout the
documents quoted in the 1859 court case. This was Badge Court, in the
parish of Upton Warren, Worcestershire. Per the pedigree provided by
the court case (on p. 4), Gilbert had 3 sons, Gilbert, Thomas &
George:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=EulNAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=Gilbert+Talbot+of+Batchcoate&source=bl&ots=tjefEvrI45&sig=tAA1lm82xafM1_feiZ2fE_DkKyg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SSJ_UPrNC-jUiwKzr4DoAg&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Gilbert%20Talbot%20of%20Batchcoate&f=false

"The Honourable Gilbert Talbot, Esq." was buried 11 April 1702 at St
Mary Magdalene Church, Albrighton, Shropshire. (The 1711 date Leo
shows is incorrect). He married Jane Flatsbury, who was the "Jana,
wife of Gilberti Talbott" buried 9 November 1687 at St Michael Church,
Upton Warren, Worcestershire, per the England Death and Burials,
1538-1991 index found in FamilySearch.org Of Jane Flatsbury's
parentage, I can so far find nothing. She likely was descended from
the Flatsburys of Johnstown. co. Kildare, Ireland, but how exactly
remains elusive:
http://archive.org/stream/journalcountyki02socigoog#page/n124/mode/2up

Hon. Gilbert Talbot of Badge Court House & Jane Flatsbury had 5
children, 3 sons & 2 daus:

1) Gilbert Talbot, born 11 January 1673; succeeded as 13th Earl of
Shrewsbury & Waterford 1718; died unmarried, buried 13 July 1743, St
Pancras Churchyard, Middlesex.

2) Anne Talbot, born 25 December 1673; married Edward Talbot, "yeoman"
of Albrighton; buried 7 May 1708, St Mary Magdalene Church,
Albrighton, Shropshire, leaving issue, two surviving daughters, but
having had (apparently) at least 4 daughters:
2A) Anne Talbot - the elder surviving daughter, married about 1725,
Henry Darnall III of Poplar Hill, Maryland
2B) Mary Talbot - the younger surviving daughter, married about 1740,
Thomas Salvin of Easingwold
3B) Apollonia, dau of "Edward Talbot, yeoman, and Anne his wife",
baptized 18 April 1706, St Mary Magdalene Church, Albrighton,
Shropshire.
4B) Catharine Talbot, dau of "Edward Talbot yeoman & Anne his wife",
baptized 26 March 1707, St Mary Magdalene Church, Albrighton,
Shropshire
[Note: Is it possible that Apollonia & Catherine were actually Anne &
Mary, baptized under false names because their parents were
Catholics?]

3) Thomas Talbot, born (probably) 1674; buried "Thomas, son of
Gilberti & Janae Talbott" 26 February 1678, St Michael Church, Upton
Warren, Worcestershire. "ob.s.p. 1677-8" per the pedigree in the Earl
of Shrewsbury court case.

4) George Talbot, born 1675; acting earl of Shrewsbury from 1718 till
his death; died 12 December, buried 24 December 1733, St Mary
Magdalene Church, Albrighton. Married (contract dated 4 March 1718),
Hon. Mary Fitzwilliam (died 20 December 1752), and had 6 sons & 3
daughters.

5) Mary Talbot, born 1676; professed a Poor Clare nun 17 May 1696;
died at Gravelines convent 5 February 1717.

I'll do the Edward III descents in a separate post. I'd love to hear
from others if this appears to be a solid line.

Cheers, ------Brad

[John Higgins]

Post by Brad Verity
Thanks goes to John Brandon, who, back in 2003, first brought to the
newsgroup's attention the fact that Anne Talbot, the wife of Henry
Darnall III of Poplar Hill, Maryland (1702-c.1787), Attorney General
of Maryland 1744-1756, was likely the niece of Gilbert Talbot, 13th
Earl of Shrewsbury:http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2003-10/10...
Thanks also goes to John Higgins, who just a few days ago, brought the
newsgroup's attention to the fact that Mary Talbot, wife of Thomas
Salvin of Easingwold (1703-1756), ancestors of the present Barons De
Mauley, was likely Anne's sister:http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/6745864c838...
Further digging into this family group brings to light evidence that
firmly supports the conclusion that Anne Darnall and Mary Salvin were
sisters, the daughters of an Edward Talbot of Albrighton, and his wife
Anne, sister of Gilbert, the future 13th Earl of Shrewsbury.
In 1703, Anne and Edward Talbot of Albrighton gave back her 1,000
pound (marriage?) portion from the manor of Cooksey, Worcestershire,
to George Talbot of Cooksey.  The Worcestershire Record Office
explains that Anne was the sister of Gilbert, 13th Earl of Shrewsbury,
29 Sep 1703   "Assignment from Edward Talbot of Albrighton, Salop, and
Anne his wife [daughter of Gilbert Talbot of Grafton] to George Talbot
of Cooksey [second son of Gilbert Talbot] of Anne's portion of £1000
from Cooksey.  [The Duke (and 12th Earl) of Shrewsbury (d. 1717) was
succeeded as 13th Earl by his cousin, Fr Gilbert Talbot, first son of
Gilbert Talbot of Grafton (d. 1711). Although Fr Gilbert was legally
13th Earl, his younger brother George Talbot, sometime of Cooksey,
styled himself Earl of Shrewsbury. George predeceased his elder
brother, but was the ancestor of the 14th to the 17th Earls of
Shrewsbury.]" [Worcestershire Record Office/Earl of Shrewsbury and
Waterford/705/100/11768/7/7]http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=045-705-100&c...
On 7 May 1708, "Anne, wife of Mr Edward Talbot", was buried at St Mary
Magdalene Church, Albrighton, Shropshire.
In 1715 a census was taken of Catholic non-jurors throughout England,
and Edward Talbot, with his daughters Anne and Mary, were returned as
"Edward Talbot, of Albrighton, gent.--Moiety of house called the
'Bowling Green,' leased formerly by Charles, Duke of Shrewsbury, to
Hon. Gilbert Talbot; in possession of self and daughters, Anne and
Mary T."http://archive.org/stream/englishcatholicn00estcuoft#page/220/mode/2up
In January 1719, in a provision to a petition submitted by George
Talbot & others regarding the estates of the late Duke of Shrewsbury,
George wanted the right to alienate some of the lands in order to
provide marriage portions for his nieces, Anne and Mary, daughters of
his sister Anne Talbot, who were both under the age of 21.  This is
published in the 1859 case of 'The Earl of Shrewsbury v. James Robert
Hope Scott and others', found on Google Books here (the relevant
provision is Provision VI on pp. 69-70):http://books.google.ca/books?id=EulNAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=Gi...
In 1735, an indenture was entered into the Land Records of Prince
George's County, Maryland, which mentioned terms of the marriage
contract for Henry Darnall and Anne Talbot, which marriage is thought
to have occurred in about 1725.  Note that the George, Earl of
Shrewsbury, mentioned as a party to the marriage contract was George
Talbot (1675-1733), formerly of Cooksey, the brother and heir of
Gilbert Talbot, 13th Earl of Shrewsbury.  Because the 13th Earl was an
ordained Jesuit priest, all of the family estates went to George, who
"2 Aug 1735; Indenture between Henry Darnall, Gent., son & heir
apparent of Henry Darnall, Esq., of the first part and Anne Darnall,
wife of sd. Henry Darnall, of the second part and Rt. Hon. George,
Earl of Shrewsbury and John Talbott of Longford in County of Salp,
Esq.; for consideration of a marriage between Henry Darnall and Anne
Darnall, his present wife, and £500 being the marriage portion; for
further consideration of £50 to Henry Darnall paid by George, Earl of
Shrewsbury; and further payment of £40 by John Talbott; indenture to
lease dated the day before this a tract called The Addition on the
west side of Piscattaway main branch; containing 949 acres together
with 300 acres called His Lordship's Kindness where the dwelling house
of sd. Henry Darnall now stands; also a tract called Toogood of 100
acres; also Pitchcroft (?) now in possession of Darnall; the whole
containing 300 acres (other part sold by the late Col. Darnall to
Henry Calvert and John Summers); also cattle, etc.; also Negroes named
Dick and Sarah his wife, Petre & Rose his wife and their 2 children;
also Sam & Jenny his wife and their 5 children; also old Nancy,
Marmaduke, George, Long Betty (?), Kate, girl Beck, boy Sam and boy
Jonny; all lately granted sd. Henry Darnall the younger by Henry
Darnall the father; /s/ Henry Darnall; wit. William Clifton, Robt.
Carroll"http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=mrmarsha&id...
There is an article by Geoffrey Holt, entitled 'Gilbert Talbot and the
Talbot Case', published in 'Recusant History', Volume 24, Number 2
(October 1998).  Though Holt mentions only two siblings for Gilbert
Talbot the 13th Earl: George & Mary, overlooking Anne, he does bring
up two interesting facts that support Anne Talbot Darnall and Mary
Talbot Salvin as nieces of the 13th Earl.  The first is that there was
a strong push by the Jesuits during the 1730s and 1740s "to extend the
apostolate of the Maryland English Jesuit mission in Pennsylvania".
This helps to explain why a niece of Gilbert, the 13th Earl of
Shrewsbury, and his brother George, the acting earl, was given in
marriage to the son and heir of a leading Catholic planter in
Maryland.  The other fact is that in the July 1743 will of the 13th
Earl ("there is a copy in AAW [Archives of the Archdiocese of
Westminster], R155/11/17"), he provided that his estate be divided
into moieties, one of which "I give and bequeath to all my several
nephews and nieces, equally to be divided amongst them share and share
alike".  According to another document in the archives of the
Archdiocese of Westminster - R155/11/18 - there was a total of eleven
nephews and nieces.  Per Collins's Peerage, George Talbot, the acting
6 sons & 3 daughters.  The remaining two out of the 11 total thus had
to be Anne Talbot Darnall & Mary Talbot Salvin, daughters of Anne, the
13th Earl's sister, as he had no other surviving siblings.
The documentary evidence is thus very strong for Anne Talbot, wife of
Henry Darnall of Maryland, being a niece of the 13th Earl of
Shrewsbury, and a great-granddaughter of the 10th Earl of Shrewsbury.
As descendants of Edward III who immigrated to the New World are
relatively rare, she should definitely be included on the list of
those who did, especially as she herself had descendants in Maryland
for at least several generations.
Leo has the grandfather of Anne Talbot Darnall in his database here,
with an incorrect date of death:http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00104874&tree=LEO
Before I lay out the descents from Edward III for Anne Talbot Darnall
and her sister Mary Talbot Salvin, I want to provide more detail on
Hon. Gilbert Talbot of Badge Court House, born about 1631, was a
younger son of the 10th Earl of Shrewsbury and his 1st wife, Mary
Fortescue.  He is described as "of Batchcoate" throughout the
documents quoted in the 1859 court case.  This was Badge Court, in the
parish of Upton Warren, Worcestershire.  Per the pedigree provided by
the court case (on p. 4), Gilbert had 3 sons, Gilbert, Thomas &
George:http://books.google.ca/books?id=EulNAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=Gi...
"The Honourable Gilbert Talbot, Esq." was buried 11 April 1702 at St
Mary Magdalene Church, Albrighton, Shropshire.  (The 1711 date Leo
shows is incorrect).  He married Jane Flatsbury, who was the "Jana,
wife of Gilberti Talbott" buried 9 November 1687 at St Michael Church,
Upton Warren, Worcestershire, per the England Death and Burials,
1538-1991 index found in FamilySearch.org  Of Jane Flatsbury's
parentage, I can so far find nothing.  She likely was descended from
the Flatsburys of Johnstown. co. Kildare, Ireland, but how exactly
remains elusive:http://archive.org/stream/journalcountyki02socigoog#page/n124/mode/2up
Hon. Gilbert Talbot of Badge Court House & Jane Flatsbury had 5
1) Gilbert Talbot, born 11 January 1673; succeeded as 13th Earl of
Shrewsbury & Waterford 1718; died unmarried, buried 13 July 1743, St
Pancras Churchyard, Middlesex.
2) Anne Talbot, born 25 December 1673; married Edward Talbot, "yeoman"
of Albrighton; buried 7 May 1708, St Mary Magdalene Church,
Albrighton, Shropshire, leaving issue, two surviving daughters, but
2A) Anne Talbot - the elder surviving daughter, married about 1725,
Henry Darnall III of Poplar Hill, Maryland
2B) Mary Talbot - the younger surviving daughter, married about 1740,
Thomas Salvin of Easingwold
3B) Apollonia, dau of "Edward Talbot, yeoman, and Anne his wife",
baptized 18 April 1706, St Mary Magdalene Church, Albrighton,
Shropshire.
4B) Catharine Talbot, dau of "Edward Talbot yeoman & Anne his wife",
baptized 26 March 1707, St Mary Magdalene Church, Albrighton,
Shropshire
[Note: Is it possible that Apollonia & Catherine were actually Anne &
Mary, baptized under false names because their parents were
Catholics?]
3) Thomas Talbot, born (probably) 1674; buried "Thomas, son of
Gilberti & Janae Talbott" 26 February 1678, St Michael Church, Upton
Warren, Worcestershire. "ob.s.p. 1677-8" per the pedigree in the Earl
of Shrewsbury court case.
4) George Talbot, born 1675; acting earl of Shrewsbury from 1718 till
his death; died 12 December, buried 24 December 1733, St Mary
Magdalene Church, Albrighton.  Married (contract dated 4 March 1718),
Hon. Mary Fitzwilliam (died 20 December 1752), and had 6 sons & 3
daughters.
5) Mary Talbot, born 1676; professed a Poor Clare nun 17 May 1696;
died at Gravelines convent 5 February 1717.
I'll do the Edward III descents in a separate post.  I'd love to hear
from others if this appears to be a solid line.
Cheers,                                       ------Brad

Great job, Brad - very thorough and informative.

One very small note: CP 11:724 says that Jane, wife of Hon. Gilbert
Talbot and mother of the Jesuit 13th Earl of Shrewsbury and our Anne
Talbot, was daughter of "William [?] Flatsbury" - might be a clue. I
note that the KASJ journal volume cited above for the Flatsburys of
Co. Kildare is a copy scanned by Google Books. The article apparently
contains a fold-out pedigree of the earlier generations of the family,
but Google has (once again) mangled the pedigree in its scanning.

I currently have 6 Edward III descents for Hon. Gilbert Talbot (m.
Jane Flatsbury). Interestingly, none are through the Talbot male line
but instead through his mother Mary Fortescue - who in turn has
descents via her Manners and Vernon grandparents. I'll be interested
to see your list of the Edward III descents.

[Brad Verity]

Post by John Higgins
I currently have 6 Edward III descents for Hon. Gilbert Talbot (m.
Jane Flatsbury).  Interestingly, none are through the Talbot male line
but instead through his mother Mary Fortescue - who in turn has
descents via her Manners and Vernon grandparents. I'll be interested
to see your list of the Edward III descents.

Thanks, John. I also have 6 Edward III descents for Hon. Gilbert
Talbot. And, yes, I was surprised that none were through the Talbot
line. But the Talbots of Albrighton were a junior branch of the
family, and received the earldom of Shrewsbury unexpectedly in the
17th century.

Just a note that there is a small chance that these may not be all of
the Edward III descents for the sisters Anne Talbot Darnall and Mary
Talbot Salvin, as their father Edward Talbot of Albrighton, and the
parents of their maternal grandmother Jane Flatsbury Talbot (d. 1687),
need further identification. But they are all of the Edward III
descents for their maternal grandfather, Hon. Gilbert Talbot of Badge
Court House.

Edward III had 3 sons A1, B1 & D1:
A1) Edmund of Langley, 1st Duke of York (1341-1402) m. 1) Isabel of
Castile (1355-1392), and had
A2) Richard of York, 3rd Earl of Cambridge (1385-1415) m. Anne
Mortimer (see B4 below), and had
A3) Richard, 3rd Duke of York (1411-1460) m. Cecily Neville (see D3
below), and had
A4) Anne of York (1439-1476) m. 2) Sir Thomas St Leger of Guildford
(by1438-1483), and had
A5) Anne St Leger (1475-1526) m. George Manners, 11th Lord Ros
(1470-1513, descended from Edward I), and had
A6) Thomas Manners, 1st Earl of Rutland (c.1497-1543) m. 2) Eleanor
Paston (descended from Edward I), and had
A7) Sir John Manners of Haddon Hall (bef.1535-1611) m. Dorothy Vernon
(see C9 below), and had
A8) Grace Manners (c.1570-1634) m. Sir Francis Fortescue of Salden
House (c.1563-1624), and had
A9) Mary Fortescue (d. 1636) m. John Talbot, 10th Earl of Shrewsbury
(1597-1634, descended from Edward I), and had
A10) Hon. Gilbert Talbot of Badge Court House (c.1631-1702) m. Jane
Flatsbury (d. 1687), and had
A11) Anne Talbot (1673-1708) m. Edward Talbot of Albrighton, and had
A12) Anne Talbot, wife of Henry Bagnall III of Maryland (1702-c.1787)
& Mary Talbot, wife of Thomas Salvin of Easingwold (1703-1756)

B1) Lionel of Antwerp, Duke of Clarence (1338-1368) m. 1) Elizabeth de
Burgh (1332-1363, descended from Edward I), and had
B2) Philippa of Clarence (1355-1377) m. Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of
March (1352-1381), and had a son B3 & a dau C3
B3) Roger Mortimer, 4th Earl of March (1374-1398) m. Alianore Holland
(1370-1405, descended from Edward I), and had
B4) Anne Mortimer (1388-1411) m. Richard of York, Earl of Cambridge
(see A2 above)

C3) Elizabeth Mortimer (1371-1417) m. 1) Sir Henry 'Hotspur' Percy
(1364-1403), and had
C4) Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland (1394-1455) m. Eleanor
Neville (see E3 below)
C5) Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland (1421-1461) m. Eleanor
Poynings (1428-1484, descended from Edward I), and had
C6) Margaret Percy (b. c.1448) m. Sir William Gascoigne of Gawthorpe
(see F6 below), and had
C7) Elizabeth Gascoigne (c.1480-1559) m. Sir George Tailboys of Kyme
(1467-1538, descended from Edward I), and had
C8) Margaret Tailboys m. Sir George Vernon of Haddon Hall (1508-1565,
descended from Edward I), and had
C9) Dorothy Vernon (c.1545-1584) m. Sir John Manners of Haddon Hall
(see A7 above)

D1) John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster (1340-1399) m. 3) Katherine
Roet (c.1350-1403), and had
D2) Joan Beaufort (c.1377-1440) m. 2) Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of
Westmorland (c.1364-1425), and had 3 daus D3, E3 & F3
D3) Cecily Neville (1415-1495) m. Richard, 3rd Duke of York (see A3
above)

E3) Eleanor Neville (1403-1472) m. 2) Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of
Northumberland (see C4 above)

F3) Mary Ferrers (1394-1458) m. Sir Ralph Neville of Oversley (c.
1395-1458, descended from Edward I), and had
F4) John Neville of Oversley (c.1415-1482) m. Elizabeth Newmarch, and
had
F5) Joan Neville m. 1) Sir William Gascoigne of Gawthorpe (c.
1428-1463), and had
F6) Sir William Gascoigne of Gawthorpe (c.1450-1487) m. Margaret Percy
(see C6 above)

Cheers, -------Brad

[Brad Verity]

Post by Brad Verity
Further digging into this family group brings to light evidence that
firmly supports the conclusion that Anne Darnall and Mary Salvin were
sisters, the daughters of an Edward Talbot of Albrighton, and his wife
Anne, sister of Gilbert, the future 13th Earl of Shrewsbury.

Leo has Mary Talbot Salvin in his database, here:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00616823&tree=LEO

And he has her sister Anne Talbot Darnall in his database, here,
without parents:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00582951&tree=LEO

Apparently Anne Talbot is an ancestress of Catherine Middleton(!), so
this gives Prince William's wife some additional Edward III descents.
Very cool!

Cheers, --------Brad

[John Higgins]

Post by Brad Verity
Further digging into this family group brings to light evidence that
firmly supports the conclusion that Anne Darnall and Mary Salvin were
sisters, the daughters of an Edward Talbot of Albrighton, and his wife
Anne, sister of Gilbert, the future 13th Earl of Shrewsbury.

Leo has Mary Talbot Salvin in his database, here:http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00616823&tree=LEO
And he has her sister Anne Talbot Darnall in his database, here,
without parents:http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00582951&tree=LEO
Apparently Anne Talbot is an ancestress of Catherine Middleton(!), so
this gives Prince William's wife some additional Edward III descents.
Very cool!
Cheers,                           --------Brad

No，the Darnall family is mentioned in WAR's book on the Middleton
ancestry, not because they are ancestral to the Duchess of Cambridge,
but because WAR included a chart showing a (distant) relationship
between Kate Middleton and A Darnall descendant Marianne Caton, wife
of the 1st Marquess Wellesley (brother of the Duke of Wellington).
Marianne Caton's paternal grandmother was Nary Darnall who married
Charles Carroll of Carrollton, the last surviving signer of the
Declaration of Independence (and the only Catholic signer).

[Brad Verity]

Post by John Higgins
No，the Darnall family is mentioned in WAR's book on the Middleton
ancestry, not because they are ancestral to the Duchess of Cambridge,

Disappointing.

Post by John Higgins
but because WAR included a chart showing a (distant) relationship
between Kate Middleton and A Darnall descendant Marianne Caton, wife
of the 1st Marquess Wellesley (brother of the Duke of Wellington).
Marianne Caton's paternal grandmother was Nary Darnall who married
Charles Carroll of Carrollton, the last surviving signer of the
Declaration of Independence (and the only Catholic signer).

That's some consolation, and certainly interesting historically.

Thanks & Cheers, ------Brad

[Wjhonson]

Elizabeth Flatsbury, a widow was buried at Upton Warren 22 Jul 1684








-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <***@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:55 pm
Subject: Re: Royal Descents of Anne Talbot Darnall & Mary Talbot Salvin

Post by Brad Verity
Further digging into this family group brings to light evidence that
firmly supports the conclusion that Anne Darnall and Mary Salvin were
sisters, the daughters of an Edward Talbot of Albrighton, and his wife
Anne, sister of Gilbert, the future 13th Earl of Shrewsbury.

Leo has Mary Talbot Salvin in his database, here:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00616823&tree=LEO

And he has her sister Anne Talbot Darnall in his database, here,
without parents:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00582951&tree=LEO

Apparently Anne Talbot is an ancestress of Catherine Middleton(!), so
this gives Prince William's wife some additional Edward III descents.
Very cool!

Cheers, --------Brad

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message

[Wjhonson]

There's something wrong with this surname.
The number of references to the name *at all* is incredibly slim.
Is there another spelling?







-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <***@aol.com>
To: royaldescent <***@hotmail.com>; gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 20, 2012 9:54 am
Subject: Re: Royal Descents of Anne Talbot Darnall & Mary Talbot Salvin


Elizabeth Flatsbury, a widow was buried at Upton Warren 22 Jul 1684








-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Verity <***@hotmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thu, Oct 18, 2012 12:55 pm
Subject: Re: Royal Descents of Anne Talbot Darnall & Mary Talbot Salvin

Post by Brad Verity
Further digging into this family group brings to light evidence that
firmly supports the conclusion that Anne Darnall and Mary Salvin were
sisters, the daughters of an Edward Talbot of Albrighton, and his wife
Anne, sister of Gilbert, the future 13th Earl of Shrewsbury.

Leo has Mary Talbot Salvin in his database, here:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00616823&tree=LEO

And he has her sister Anne Talbot Darnall in his database, here,
without parents:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00582951&tree=LEO

Apparently Anne Talbot is an ancestress of Catherine Middleton(!), so
this gives Prince William's wife some additional Edward III descents.
Very cool!

Cheers, --------Brad

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com

with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message



-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message

[John Higgins]

Post by Wjhonson
There's something wrong with this surname.
The number of references to the name *at all* is incredibly slim.
Is there another spelling?
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sat, Oct 20, 2012 9:54 am
Subject: Re: Royal Descents of Anne Talbot Darnall & Mary Talbot Salvin
Elizabeth Flatsbury, a widow was buried at Upton Warren 22 Jul 1684

Yes.

[Wjhonson]

Oh the ever helpful John Higgins, what a shock!






-----Original Message-----
From: John Higgins <***@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 20, 2012 10:05 am
Subject: Re: Royal Descents of Anne Talbot Darnall & Mary Talbot Salvin

Post by Wjhonson
There's something wrong with this surname.
The number of references to the name *at all* is incredibly slim.
Is there another spelling?
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sat, Oct 20, 2012 9:54 am
Subject: Re: Royal Descents of Anne Talbot Darnall & Mary Talbot Salvin
Elizabeth Flatsbury, a widow was buried at Upton Warren 22 Jul 1684

Yes.


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message

[Bronwen Edwards]

Post by Wjhonson
Oh the ever helpful John Higgins, what a shock!

A spoon full of sugar.....

What goes around....

What goes up....

How does it feel when someone purposely taunts you with the answer instead of helping you?

[Wjhonson]

Yes there are people who constantly think I *know* answers and taunt them.
These people are a good case for enforced sterilization however.








-----Original Message-----
From: Bronwen Edwards <***@yahoo.com>
To: soc.genealogy.medieval <***@googlegroups.com>
Cc: gen-medieval <gen-***@rootsweb.com>; jhigginsgen <***@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 20, 2012 10:48 am
Subject: Re: Royal Descents of Anne Talbot Darnall & Mary Talbot Salvin

Post by Wjhonson
Oh the ever helpful John Higgins, what a shock!

A spoon full of sugar.....

What goes around....

What goes up....

How does it feel when someone purposely taunts you with the answer instead of
helping you?

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-***@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message

[h***@gmail.com]

I post this with great hopes in stirring up enough interest to decimate and solve a long arduous mystery. I am fairly certain to the maiden name of Elizabeth Flatsbury. But before we get into that discussion, I wanted to share a few things with the group.

First off, the Flatsbury name:
The name Flatsbury it would seem is now an extinct one; it was practically single handedly wiped out after the Irish Rebellion of 1641. They were an Irish family rising in the ranks and were starting to marry into the Anglo-Norman families of Ireland by 1550. Names like Aylmer, Barnewell, Wogan, and Talbot start becoming allied families leading up to 1640. Their lands were in Kildare, which was right outside the Pale, and this is where all of these families were situated.

How a Flatsbury ended up in Worcester is a very very long discussion, but I can tell you this: I have a document that proves Elizabeth Flatsbury was sister to a Mrs. Darnall. I think the conformation of this linkage can be found in the Talbot family of Grafton/Upton Warren, where Elizabeth is buried.

Where we might find an answer:

What we really need is to find some of the wills associated with Grafton/Upton Warren, Worcester and the Talbot family during the period of 1640-1690. The stacks of the PCC are huge, and I have no idea how to look through the Prerogative Court of York without paying to search their index (which I find beyond absurd... pay to see an index). Also, if there might be someone to collaborate with who may live near the Record Office of Worcestershire. That would be Huge. Does anyone here know how to access the will index of Worcester? They have not made this available on their website, but they seem to have one.

Items I have right now:

1. The will of George Talbot (sometimes known as Earl of Shrewsbury) d. 1733. I have to transcribe this still, but at first glance, nothing popped out at me. He was the brother of Gilbert, 13th Earl, and son to Gilbert and Jane Talbot, nee Flatsbury.

2. The will of Thomas Oakeley of Grafton Manor, Worcester gentleman, d. 1688 - No mention of any Flatsbury, but has Gilbert Talbot, Francis Woolmer, Thomas Hills, and George Parker are witnesses and a Humphry Weld Esquire, as overseer.

3. The will of Thomas Nathe of Cookeley within the parish of Upton Warren, Worcester gentleman, d. 1652. - nada

4. The will of Mary Thornbury of the parish of Upton Warren, Worcester widow, d. 1667 - nada

5. The will of Sherlington Talbot of Rudge, Salop Esquire, d. 1656

6. The will of Thomas Talbot of Longford, Salop Esquire, d. 1686 - brother-in-law to Jane Flatsbury. Son to the 10th Earl and his second wife, Frances Arundell.

These wills have basically produced nothing of serious relevance so we need to dig a bit deeper. Let me know if you all have any suggestions and ideas on some key figures to be looking for. I for one, would like to see George Wintour, Baronet, d. 1658 and his wife Frances, nee Talbot (sister to Gilbert and Jane). Or any of the sibling's wills for that matter.

Best regards,

Brian Hessick

Post by Wjhonson
Yes there are people who constantly think I *know* answers and taunt them.
These people are a good case for enforced sterilization however.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sat, Oct 20, 2012 10:48 am
Subject: Re: Royal Descents of Anne Talbot Darnall & Mary Talbot Salvin

Post by Wjhonson
Oh the ever helpful John Higgins, what a shock!

A spoon full of sugar.....
What goes around....
What goes up....
How does it feel when someone purposely taunts you with the answer instead of
helping you?
-------------------------------
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message

[Renia]

Post by h***@gmail.com
I post this with great hopes in stirring up enough interest to
decimate and solve a long arduous mystery. I am fairly certain to
the maiden name of Elizabeth Flatsbury. But before we get into that
discussion, I wanted to share a few things with the group.
First off, the Flatsbury name: The name Flatsbury it would seem is
now an extinct one; it was practically single handedly wiped out
after the Irish Rebellion of 1641. They were an Irish family rising
in the ranks and were starting to marry into the Anglo-Norman
families of Ireland by 1550. Names like Aylmer, Barnewell, Wogan,
and Talbot start becoming allied families leading up to 1640. Their
lands were in Kildare, which was right outside the Pale, and this is
where all of these families were situated.
How a Flatsbury ended up in Worcester is a very very long discussion,
but I can tell you this: I have a document that proves Elizabeth
Flatsbury was sister to a Mrs. Darnall. I think the conformation of
this linkage can be found in the Talbot family of Grafton/Upton
Warren, where Elizabeth is buried.

As a surname, Flatsbury doesn't really exist. The examples you have come
across must be variants or mis-spellings of something else. It is
certainly not an Irish name.

Only one example on any of the FindMyPast databases:

Elizabeth Flatsbury, buried 22 Jul 1684, St Michael, Upton St Warren,
Worcestershire

There are none in any of the UK censuses 1841-1911, no births, deaths or
marriages registered 1837-2006.

There is one entry at the National Archives, another two for Flattesbury
(or variant). There are none on any of the Ancestry.com databases, which
includes records for Ireland, except for 3 Flatsbury wills in Ireland in
the 17th century.

One of the National Archives entries:


SIR WILLIAM BRABAZON to GERALD AYLMER and JOHN ALL... MS 602, p. 128

and drove him to the Three Castles, and others with him, and set fire on
the top of the castle, so that they yielded; wherein was taken Kelwey
and your kinsman Mr. Justice Richard Aylmer, young Flattesbery, Lang,
and divers others, and such husbandmen
Date: 1538 Source: Access to Archives (A2A): not kept at The National
Archives

The full transcript can be read herre (watch wrap):

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=109-mss_1-1_2&cid=2-57#2-57

In what way was a Flatsbury related to a Wogan?

[Derek Howard]

Post by Renia

Post by h***@gmail.com
I post this with great hopes in stirring up enough interest to
decimate and solve a long arduous mystery. I am fairly certain to
the maiden name of Elizabeth Flatsbury. But before we get into that
discussion, I wanted to share a few things with the group.
First off, the Flatsbury name: The name Flatsbury it would seem is
now an extinct one; it was practically single handedly wiped out
after the Irish Rebellion of 1641. They were an Irish family rising
in the ranks and were starting to marry into the Anglo-Norman
families of Ireland by 1550. Names like Aylmer, Barnewell, Wogan,
and Talbot start becoming allied families leading up to 1640. Their
lands were in Kildare, which was right outside the Pale, and this is
where all of these families were situated.
How a Flatsbury ended up in Worcester is a very very long discussion,
but I can tell you this: I have a document that proves Elizabeth
Flatsbury was sister to a Mrs. Darnall. I think the conformation of
this linkage can be found in the Talbot family of Grafton/Upton
Warren, where Elizabeth is buried.

As a surname, Flatsbury doesn't really exist. The examples you have come
across must be variants or mis-spellings of something else. It is
certainly not an Irish name.
Elizabeth Flatsbury, buried 22 Jul 1684, St Michael, Upton St Warren,
Worcestershire
There are none in any of the UK censuses 1841-1911, no births, deaths or
marriages registered 1837-2006.
There is one entry at the National Archives, another two for Flattesbury
(or variant). There are none on any of the Ancestry.com databases, which
includes records for Ireland, except for 3 Flatsbury wills in Ireland in
the 17th century.
SIR WILLIAM BRABAZON to GERALD AYLMER and JOHN ALL... MS 602, p. 128
and drove him to the Three Castles, and others with him, and set fire on
the top of the castle, so that they yielded; wherein was taken Kelwey
and your kinsman Mr. Justice Richard Aylmer, young Flattesbery, Lang,
and divers others, and such husbandmen
Date: 1538 Source: Access to Archives (A2A): not kept at The National
Archives
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=109-mss_1-1_2&cid=2-57#2-57
In what way was a Flatsbury related to a Wogan?

The background to the Flatsbury family, including the Wogan link, is in an article by Sir Arthur Vicars, Ulster King of Arms: "The Family of Flatesbury, of Ballynasculloge and Johnstown, County Kildare". (With an illustration of a cross erected to Richard, 6th Earl of Mayo in Johnstown Churchyard), in the Journal of the County Kildare Archaeological Society, vol. IV, pp. 87-94, 1903-05 at
http://archive.org/stream/journalcountyki02socigoog#page/n124/
and vol. VI, p. 519, 1909-11.

A random couple of background documents:
National Library of Ireland, D. 1290, consists of two quit-claims by Patrick Flattesbury to the Earl of Ormonde of his right in a messuage and land in Clyntounescourt in the tenement of Yagoestoun (Jackstown) near le Naas, June 6, 29, 1383.

The Public Record Office of Northern Ireland D57/1 of 15 January 1639 contains Sir Adam Loftus, Kt., HM. Vice-Treasurer and Treasurer at War in Ireland, Sir Robert Meredith, Kt., Chancellor of HM Court of Exchequer, Sir Phillip Percival, Kt., as Patentees entrusted with the lands lately passed on the Plantation of the Byrne's Country in the County of Wicklow, to Sir Henry Tichbourne, Kt. Deed of confirmation of a lease made by Redmond Mcffeagh Byrne, James Flatsbury and John Walsh to Sir Henry Tichbourne, of Ballenegelloge, Balleneparke, Ballenehaske, Cornegowre, Rahard, Cronekipe, Cloghoge (Byrne's Country, Co. Wicklow), for 81 years from Feast of St John the Baptist, 1638

There is also a brief note in the Journal of the County Kildare Archaeological Society, Vol. III, p. 196, 1899-1902, of "Philip Flatsbury, a Kildare historian" who wrote a History of Ireland down to 1517.
http://archive.org/stream/journalcountyki01socigoog#page/n234/

Derek Howard

[Renia]

On 05/02/2013 09:08, Derek Howard wrote:
In what way was a Flatsbury related to a Wogan?

Post by Derek Howard
The background to the Flatsbury family, including the Wogan link, is
in an article by Sir Arthur Vicars, Ulster King of Arms: "The Family
of Flatesbury, of Ballynasculloge and Johnstown, County Kildare".
(With an illustration of a cross erected to Richard, 6th Earl of Mayo
in Johnstown Churchyard), in the Journal of the County Kildare
Archaeological Society, vol. IV, pp. 87-94, 1903-05 at
http://archive.org/stream/journalcountyki02socigoog#page/n124/ and
vol. VI, p. 519, 1909-11.

Thank you for that. It seems odd that a biography of the Flatsbury
family can only find about a dozen disjointed names in Ireland and no
pedigree after 1465, save a couple of instances of people bearing the
name. They seem to be tenants, rather than landowners. As the author has
found instances of the name in Ireland in the 13th century, I would
guess that the name belongs to one single family, whose ancestor has
Anglicised the name from an Irish one, such as Flaherty.

Post by Derek Howard
A random couple of background documents: National Library of Ireland,
D. 1290, consists of two quit-claims by Patrick Flattesbury to the
Earl of Ormonde of his right in a messuage and land in
Clyntounescourt in the tenement of Yagoestoun (Jackstown) near le
Naas, June 6, 29, 1383.
The Public Record Office of Northern Ireland D57/1 of 15 January 1639
contains Sir Adam Loftus, Kt., HM. Vice-Treasurer and Treasurer at
War in Ireland, Sir Robert Meredith, Kt., Chancellor of HM Court of
Exchequer, Sir Phillip Percival, Kt.,

Adam Loftus and Phillip Perceval are my ancestors!

as Patentees entrusted with the

Post by Derek Howard
lands lately passed on the Plantation of the Byrne's Country in the
County of Wicklow, to Sir Henry Tichbourne, Kt. Deed of confirmation
of a lease made by Redmond Mcffeagh Byrne, James Flatsbury and John
Walsh to Sir Henry Tichbourne, of Ballenegelloge, Balleneparke,
Ballenehaske, Cornegowre, Rahard, Cronekipe, Cloghoge (Byrne's
Country, Co. Wicklow), for 81 years from Feast of St John the
Baptist, 1638
There is also a brief note in the Journal of the County Kildare
Archaeological Society, Vol. III, p. 196, 1899-1902, of "Philip
Flatsbury, a Kildare historian" who wrote a History of Ireland down
to 1517.
http://archive.org/stream/journalcountyki01socigoog#page/n234/
Derek Howard

[Renia]

Post by h***@gmail.com
How a Flatsbury ended up in Worcester is a very very long discussion,

There is a village called Fladbury in Worcestershire, which another
poster has pointed out to me, which you may or may not be aware of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fladbury

[Brad Verity]

Post by Wjhonson
Elizabeth Flatsbury, a widow was buried at Upton Warren 22 Jul 1684

Thanks, Will. This seems very likely to have been Jane Flatsbury
Talbot's mother.

Post by Wjhonson
There's something wrong with this surname.
The number of references to the name *at all* is incredibly slim.
Is there another spelling?

Flatesbury is one spelling variation. There are a couple others given
within documents quoted in this article:
http://archive.org/stream/journalcountyki02socigoog#page/n124/mode/2up

Cheers, -------Brad

[Brian Hessick]

In 1641, a war council was created by certain county gentry in Kildare with the anticipation of the northern rebellion spreading south. This examination further reveals the relationship between the Talbots and the Flatsburys.


MS 813, fols 010r-013v, Trinity College, Dublin
Kildare, date 9 February 1642/3

The examination of Thomas ASH of the Naas in the county of Kildare gentleman, taken before us Sir Robert MEREDITH knight, one of his Majesties Justices of the Peace for the county of Dublin the 6th day of February 1641, by direction of the Right Honorable the Lords Justices and Council, who being sworn and examined says that the rebellion in the county of Kildare broke out, upon report and notice taken, that the Lords of the Pale had declared themselves to join with the northern rebels: And that thereupon upon the said notice there came from Raccredon, where Mr. FITZGERALD of Allen then lay, unto the soldiers garrisoned at the Naas under the command of the said Mr. FITZGERALD one of the sons of Patrick SCURLOCK of Raccredon aforesaid, who together with the said soldiers, under the command of Mr. FITZGERALD of Allen, and certain under his own command, rifled all the English inhabitants of the said town of the Naas, and thence departed with the Kings Arms into the county to doe the like there, and doe now continue in rebellion, and within few days after there came into the said county of Kildare, Roger MOORE, and by his solicitation, there was a meeting of sundry of the gentlemen of the said county, who together with the said Roger MOORE, nominated and appointed the several parties hereunder named, unto the places and employments
following namely those whose names ensue to be Colonels vizt. Roger MOORE of Ballina, Peirce FITZGERALD of Ballyshannon, Maurice EUSTACE of Castle Martin, Nicholas SUTTON of Tipper, Gerald TALBOT, Hugh BIRNE and Lisagh MOORE who executed their said employment authority accordingly before the 1st of this month of February they further appointed those whose names ensue to be Captains; namely, Walter EUSTACE of Mullacash, Christopher EUSTACE of Newland his second son, Richard FITZGERALD of Oldtown, Christopher ASHBOUND of Timolin, Phillip FLATSBURY of Johnston, Thomas SCURLOCK of Racredon, Oliver WOGAN of the Downings, John LATTIN of Moorestown, Capt. DONNELL, John FITZGERALD of Monsin his eldest son, Thomas WOGAN of the Downings, Gerald SUTTON of Richardstown, John FITZGERALD of Kildare his eldest son, John LEHE of Rathbride, Maurice FITZGERALD who now execute their said employment of the Graggs, and John CARDIFFE of Cardiffestown who now execute their said employment. They likewise further appointed those whose names ensue, to bee of the Council of War vizt. Sir Andrew AYLMER, Sir Robert TALBOT, Nicholas WOGAN of Rathcoffey, William FITZGERALD of Blackhall, Edward DUNGAN of Blackwood, George AYLMER of Hartwell, James FLATSBURY of Drinanstown, Beverly BRETON of the Lyons, Maurice FITZGERALD of Osberstown, Christopher EUSTACE of Newland, who have executed the said employment authority accordingly and that the said Council of War before the first of this present month at their meeting in the Naas further deposes further appointed those whose names ensue, within their several Baronies respectively, to be Collectors, for the gathering together of the protestant’s cattle; and for the threshing out of the
 protestant’s corn, for the use of the rebels army. vizt., for the Upper Barony of the Naas, William BARNEWALL of Steiplinston, Richard ARCHBOULD of Flemingstown, and this examinant Thomas ASH of the Naas, and for the Lower Barony of the Naas, Christopher SHERLOCK of the Dirr, and William FITZGERALD of Blackhall. For the Barony of Saulte, Edward ALLEN of Bishops Court, and Joseph WESLEY of Alastie, who executed their authority accordingly. The collectors for the Barony of Offaly were was James FITZGERALD of Kilrush, and William FLOOD, who likewise executed their his authority accordingly. And this examinant also says deposes that at the said meeting of the Naas, there were in the company of Roger MOORE, and Hugh BIRNE Colonels of the rebels, at the said town of the Naas, those whose names ensue, vizt, Mr. DUNGAN a lawyer, brother unto Sir John DUNGAN, Mr. James FITZGERALD of Lackoe, and Mr. William EUSTACE of Crookstown, Rowland EUSTACE of Blackhall, William WOGAN of the Downings etc. And further says that he heard from James FLATSBURY, that Christopher SHERLOCK of the Dirr, was to lend unto the said Council of War £800 towards the maintenance of the army, and also says that the said Council of War did write a letter unto my the Lord of Gormanston, desiring him to be their General; but what answer they got, he this examinant does not know. And further says that the said Council at War, did agree to make up 1,500 foot, and 100 horse to besiege Dublin, and that the county of Kildare should maintain them with meat and drink; first to begin with the Protestants haggards and cattle, and when that should be spent, the said county should maintain the said army, upon their own costs and charges, and that the sum was to be levied upon the plow lands. Robert MEREDITH

[Brian Hessick]

This item description certainly muddles things a bit...


C 11/1603/13 Description:
Short title: Earl of Shrewsbury v Maire.

Document type: Bill and two answers.

Plaintiffs: George [Talbot] Earl of Shrewsbury, Hon Charles Talbot, esq, Hon James Aston, esq of Standen, Hertfordshire and Barbara Aston his wife, Hon Mary Talbot, John Talbot, James Talbot, Thomas Talbot, Francis Talbot and Lucy Talbot infants (by Hon Mary Talbot, widow their mother; said George [Talbot] Earl of Shrerwsbury, Charles Talbot, Barbara Talbot, Mary Talbot and said five infants are only children of George Talbot, esq deceased, who was younger brother of Gilbert [Talbot] late Earl of Shrewsbury, deceased) and Ann Talbot and James Salvyn, esq of Easingwold, Yorkshire and Mary Salvyn his wife (said Ann Talbot and Mary Salvyn are only children of Ann Talbot, deceased, only sister of said Gilbert [Talbot] late Earl of Shrewsbury, deceased).

Defendants: John Maire esq and Edward [Howard] Duke of Norfolk and Hereditory Earl Marshall of England.

Date of bill (or first document): 1745

Note: The naming of a party does not imply that he or she will appear in all the documents in this cause (after the bill) Date: 1745 Held by: The National Archives, Kew

[Brian Hessick]

Regarding Elizabeth Flatsbury, I am quite certain she was the daughter of Sir Henry Breton by his wife Anne d/o Sir Edward Yate of Buckland, Berks. There are about a dozen documents I have to prove this that I will be posting in the near future.

[Brad Verity]

Post by Brian Hessick
This item description certainly muddles things a bit...
Short title: Earl of Shrewsbury v Maire.
Document type: Bill and two answers.
Plaintiffs: George [Talbot] Earl of Shrewsbury, Hon Charles Talbot, esq, Hon James Aston, esq of Standen, Hertfordshire and Barbara Aston his wife, Hon Mary Talbot, John Talbot, James Talbot, Thomas Talbot, Francis Talbot and Lucy Talbot infants (by Hon Mary Talbot, widow their mother; said George [Talbot] Earl of Shrerwsbury, Charles Talbot, Barbara Talbot, Mary Talbot and said five infants are only children of George Talbot, esq deceased, who was younger brother of Gilbert [Talbot] late Earl of Shrewsbury, deceased) and Ann Talbot and James Salvyn, esq of Easingwold, Yorkshire and Mary Salvyn his wife (said Ann Talbot and Mary Salvyn are only children of Ann Talbot, deceased, only sister of said Gilbert [Talbot] late Earl of Shrewsbury, deceased).
Defendants: John Maire esq and Edward [Howard] Duke of Norfolk and Hereditory Earl Marshall of England.
Date of bill (or first document): 1745
Note: The naming of a party does not imply that he or she will appear in all the documents in this cause (after the bill) Date: 1745 Held by: The National Archives, Kew

Dear Brian,

Sorry, I had overlooked your post above. The evidence that Anne, the wife of Henry Darnall III of Poplar Hill, Maryland, was the niece of the earl of Shrewsbury, is a 1735 indenture which references her earlier marriage settlement:
"2 Aug 1735; Indenture between Henry Darnall, Gent., son & heir apparent of Henry Darnall, Esq., of the first part and Anne Darnall, wife of sd. Henry Darnall, of the second part and Rt. Hon. George, Earl of Shrewsbury and John Talbott of Longford in County of Salp, Esq.; for consideration of a marriage between Henry Darnall and Anne Darnall, his present wife, and £500 being the marriage portion; for further consideration of £50 to Henry Darnall paid by George, Earl of Shrewsbury; and further payment of £40 by John Talbott; indenture to lease dated the day before this a tract called The Addition on the west side of Piscattaway main branch; containing 949 acres together with 300 acres called His Lordship's Kindness where the dwelling house of sd. Henry Darnall now stands; also a tract called Toogood of 100 acres; also Pitchcroft (?) now in possession of Darnall; the whole containing 300 acres (other part sold by the late Col. Darnall to Henry Calvert and John Summers); also cattle, etc.; also Negroes named Dick and Sarah his wife, Petre & Rose his wife and their 2 children; also Sam & Jenny his wife and their 5 children; also old Nancy, Marmaduke, George, Long Betty (?), Kate, girl Beck, boy Sam and boy Jonny; all lately granted sd. Henry Darnall the younger by Henry Darnall the father; /s/ Henry Darnall; wit. William Clifton, Robt. Carroll"
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=mrmarsha&id=I03089

Though no husband is given to Anne Talbot in this 1745 lawsuit, it may be that, because she was far away in Maryland, the details of her marriage weren't known in Chancery.

At any rate I've added this lawsuit as an item to research when I'm next at the National Archives in Kew.

Post by Brian Hessick
Regarding Elizabeth Flatsbury, I am quite certain she was the daughter of Sir Henry Breton by his wife Anne d/o Sir Edward Yate of Buckland, Berks. There are about a dozen documents I have to prove this that I will be posting in the near future.

That's exciting, Brian! I'm looking forward to your post.

Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad

[a***@gmail.com]

It seems I'm late to the game here, but I'm hoping someone will see this and offer some help or insight. I've traced my line to John Talbot (born in Pocklington/Yorkshire around 1671), immigrated to Maryland around 1695/1696 and married Sarah Lockyer. Upon trying to research back further, I kept running into conflicting (and sometimes incorrect) info as to whether they are or are not related to the Earls of Shrewsbury.

One clue I came upon stated that John and Sarah were neighbors of Henry Darnall and that he had married their daughter Anne. Which of course led me to the document referenced here with an Anne Talbot being the neice of George and Gilbert Talbot, the Earls. But in reading this, it seems these may be different Anne's.

Question though.....in the document, who is the John Talbot that is referenced, directly after Hon. George, Earl of Shrewsbury?

I've been chasing this mystery for about a decade and once I get to John and his likely father, Paul, it gets very muddled. Any help or insight would be appreciated!

Amanda

[r***@gmail.com]

Post by a***@gmail.com
It seems I'm late to the game here, but I'm hoping someone will see this and offer some help or insight. I've traced my line to John Talbot (born in Pocklington/Yorkshire around 1671), immigrated to Maryland around 1695/1696 and married Sarah Lockyer. Upon trying to research back further, I kept running into conflicting (and sometimes incorrect) info as to whether they are or are not related to the Earls of Shrewsbury.
One clue I came upon stated that John and Sarah were neighbors of Henry Darnall and that he had married their daughter Anne. Which of course led me to the document referenced here with an Anne Talbot being the neice of George and Gilbert Talbot, the Earls. But in reading this, it seems these may be different Anne's.
Question though.....in the document, who is the John Talbot that is referenced, directly after Hon. George, Earl of Shrewsbury?
I've been chasing this mystery for about a decade and once I get to John and his likely father, Paul, it gets very muddled. Any help or insight would be appreciated!
Amanda

Amanda, I too trace my line the same as what you've expressed above. This is a mystery I would like to solve. We have the christening record for Ann Talbot with parents listed as John and Sarah. This is the daughter that supposedly married neighbor Henry Darnall III. So if our Ann is not the same Ann who married Darnall, then what became of our Ann? And what a coincidence that another Ann of presumably the same age married the neighbor Darnall and also had a father named John! I've racked my brain trying to come up with a plausible answer to what would seem to be this great coincidence. Was Ann the biological daughter of John's brother? We need to know more about John!