elegiac

[Quinn C]

[I'm convinced I posted this already, but I don't see it. Sorry if
duplicated.]

This might have been the first time I heard "elegiac" pronounced, and I
was quite surprised at the stress on the second-to-last syllable.

Is there any other word in which the suffix, I repeat, suffix -iac has
stress and the letter i becomes /aI/ instead of the regular /i/ or /I/
of all the others that I have heard spoken before - maniac, brainiac,
cardiac, celiac, zodiac, insomniac, -philiac, aphrodisiac ...

Without an additional syllable as in maniacal, that is.

Sure, it can be analyzed as elegy+ac instead of having -iac. But that
doesn't have that phonetic effect in celeriac, either. Or iliac.

I'm also surprised at how frequent the word apparently is: more so than
celiac or insomniac (according to onelook.com, confirmed at Google
Ngrams.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Quinn C
[I'm convinced I posted this already, but I don't see it. Sorry if
duplicated.]
This might have been the first time I heard "elegiac" pronounced, and I
was quite surprised at the stress on the second-to-last syllable.
Is there any other word in which the suffix, I repeat, suffix -iac has
stress and the letter i becomes /aI/ instead of the regular /i/ or /I/
of all the others that I have heard spoken before - maniac, brainiac,
cardiac, celiac, zodiac, insomniac, -philiac, aphrodisiac ...

None of those is base ending with -y + -ac.

Post by Quinn C
Without an additional syllable as in maniacal, that is.
Sure, it can be analyzed as elegy+ac instead of having -iac. But that
doesn't have that phonetic effect in celeriac, either. Or iliac.

Which aren't adjectives of celery or ily.

Post by Quinn C
I'm also surprised at how frequent the word apparently is: more so than
celiac or insomniac (according to onelook.com, confirmed at Google
Ngrams.)

[CDB]

Post by Quinn C
[I'm convinced I posted this already, but I don't see it. Sorry if
duplicated.]
This might have been the first time I heard "elegiac" pronounced, and
I was quite surprised at the stress on the second-to-last syllable.
Is there any other word in which the suffix, I repeat, suffix -iac
has stress and the letter i becomes /aI/ instead of the regular /i/
or /I/ of all the others that I have heard spoken before - maniac,
brainiac, cardiac, celiac, zodiac, insomniac, -philiac, aphrodisiac
...
Without an additional syllable as in maniacal, that is.
Sure, it can be analyzed as elegy+ac instead of having -iac. But
that doesn't have that phonetic effect in celeriac, either. Or
iliac.
I'm also surprised at how frequent the word apparently is: more so
than celiac or insomniac (according to onelook.com, confirmed at
Google Ngrams.)

FWIW, "elegiac" was borrowed by the Romans from Greek "elegeiakos"; The
digraph "ei" would have made a long "i" in Latin "elegiacus" and gotten
the accent. None of the other example words can be traced back to a
classical original, except "iliac", from the Latin word "ilia", flank;
and the second "i" there is short.

None of this is entially logiacal.

[b***@aol.com]

Post by CDB

Post by Quinn C
[I'm convinced I posted this already, but I don't see it. Sorry if
duplicated.]
This might have been the first time I heard "elegiac" pronounced, and
I was quite surprised at the stress on the second-to-last syllable.
Is there any other word in which the suffix, I repeat, suffix -iac
has stress and the letter i becomes /aI/ instead of the regular /i/
or /I/ of all the others that I have heard spoken before - maniac,
brainiac, cardiac, celiac, zodiac, insomniac, -philiac, aphrodisiac
...
Without an additional syllable as in maniacal, that is.
Sure, it can be analyzed as elegy+ac instead of having -iac. But
that doesn't have that phonetic effect in celeriac, either. Or
iliac.
I'm also surprised at how frequent the word apparently is: more so
than celiac or insomniac (according to onelook.com, confirmed at
Google Ngrams.)

FWIW, "elegiac" was borrowed by the Romans from Greek "elegeiakos"; The
digraph "ei" would have made a long "i" in Latin "elegiacus" and gotten
the accent. None of the other example words can be traced back to a
classical original, except "iliac", from the Latin word "ilia", flank;

Just a minor quibble, but "ilia" is (neuter) plural and means "flanks".
Oddly enough, M-W has an entry for "ilium" as singular in English, but
"ilia" doesn't seem to have a singular form in Latin. (Which is confirmed
by my Félix Gaffiot dictionary.)

Post by CDB
and the second "i" there is short.
None of this is entially logiacal.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by CDB

[I'm convinced I posted this already, but I don't see it. Sorry if> >
duplicated.]
This might have been the first time I heard "elegiac" pronounced, and
I was quite surprised at the stress on the second-to-last syllable.
Is there any other word in which the suffix, I repeat, suffix -iac
has stress and the letter i becomes /aI/ instead of the regular /i/
or /I/ of all the others that I have heard spoken before - maniac,
brainiac, cardiac, celiac, zodiac, insomniac, -philiac, aphrodisiac
...
Without an additional syllable as in maniacal, that is.
Sure, it can be analyzed as elegy+ac instead of having -iac. But
that doesn't have that phonetic effect in celeriac, either. Or
iliac.
I'm also surprised at how frequent the word apparently is: more so
than celiac or insomniac (according to onelook.com, confirmed at
Google Ngrams.)

FWIW, "elegiac" was borrowed by the Romans from Greek "elegeiakos"; The
digraph "ei" would have made a long "i" in Latin "elegiacus" and gotten
the accent. None of the other example words can be traced back to a
classical original, except "iliac", from the Latin word "ilia", flank;

Just a minor quibble, but "ilia" is (neuter) plural and means "flanks".
Oddly enough, M-W has an entry for "ilium" as singular in English, but
"ilia" doesn't seem to have a singular form in Latin. (Which is confirmed
by my Félix Gaffiot dictionary.)

Post by CDB
and the second "i" there is short.
None of this is entially logiacal.

I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is pronounced, partly
because I've never heard it pronounced any other way, and partly
because I'm English and don't expect English usage to obey strict laws
of logic. I've known it long enough to know that it doesn't.

[Katy Jennison]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is pronounced, partly
because I've never heard it pronounced any other way, and partly because
I'm English and don't expect English usage to obey strict laws of logic.
I've known it long enough to know that it doesn't.

I agree with all of that, but it set me to wondering when I'd first have
heard it pronounced, too long ago for me to remember. At school, in
relation to poetry, I presume, at a young-enough age that I simply
internalised the pronunciation without question.

[Spains Harden]

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is pronounced, partly
because I've never heard it pronounced any other way, and partly because
I'm English and don't expect English usage to obey strict laws of logic.
I've known it long enough to know that it doesn't.

I agree with all of that, but it set me to wondering when I'd first have
heard it pronounced, too long ago for me to remember. At school, in
relation to poetry, I presume, at a young-enough age that I simply
internalised the pronunciation without question.

I don't think I have ever heard the word pronounced. Dylan Thomas's
"Over Sir John's Hill" leaves little doubt about how to pronounce it
in cut-glass English.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is pronounced, partly
because I've never heard it pronounced any other way, and partly because
I'm English and don't expect English usage to obey strict laws of logic.
I've known it long enough to know that it doesn't.

I agree with all of that, but it set me to wondering when I'd first have
heard it pronounced, too long ago for me to remember. At school, in
relation to poetry, I presume, at a young-enough age that I simply
internalised the pronunciation without question.

I don't think I have ever heard the word pronounced. Dylan Thomas's
"Over Sir John's Hill" leaves little doubt about how to pronounce it
in cut-glass English.

How so?

Post by Spains Harden
There
Where the elegiac fisherbird stabs and paddles
In the pebbly dab-filled
Shallow and sedge, and 'dilly dilly,' calls the loft hawk,
'Come and be killed,'

This doesn't suggest anything much about how "elegiac" should be
pronounced. What's an elegiac fisherbird, anyway? Are you under the
impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He sounded
distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard.

Post by Spains Harden
--

athel

[Spains Harden]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is pronounced, partly
because I've never heard it pronounced any other way, and partly because
I'm English and don't expect English usage to obey strict laws of logic.
I've known it long enough to know that it doesn't.

I agree with all of that, but it set me to wondering when I'd first have
heard it pronounced, too long ago for me to remember. At school, in
relation to poetry, I presume, at a young-enough age that I simply
internalised the pronunciation without question.

I don't think I have ever heard the word pronounced. Dylan Thomas's
"Over Sir John's Hill" leaves little doubt about how to pronounce it
in cut-glass English.

How so?

Post by Spains Harden
There
Where the elegiac fisherbird stabs and paddles
In the pebbly dab-filled
Shallow and sedge, and 'dilly dilly,' calls the loft hawk,
'Come and be killed,'

This doesn't suggest anything much about how "elegiac" should be
pronounced. What's an elegiac fisherbird, anyway? Are you under the
impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He sounded
distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard.

That is utter rubbish. Dylan Thomas reading his poem:

"Ell-eh-gyick"?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is pronounced, partly
because I've never heard it pronounced any other way, and partly because
I'm English and don't expect English usage to obey strict laws of logic.
I've known it long enough to know that it doesn't.

I agree with all of that, but it set me to wondering when I'd first have
heard it pronounced, too long ago for me to remember. At school, in
relation to poetry, I presume, at a young-enough age that I simply
internalised the pronunciation without question.

I don't think I have ever heard the word pronounced. Dylan Thomas's
"Over Sir John's Hill" leaves little doubt about how to pronounce it
in cut-glass English.

How so?

Post by Spains Harden
There
Where the elegiac fisherbird stabs and paddles
In the pebbly dab-filled
Shallow and sedge, and 'dilly dilly,' calls the loft hawk,
'Come and be killed,'

This doesn't suggest anything much about how "elegiac" should be
pronounced. What's an elegiac fisherbird, anyway? Are you under the
impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He sounded
distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard.

http://youtu.be/pklWyh3Q-B4
"Ell-eh-gyick"?

You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to have
heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you proceed by
referring to a recording that you presumably had heard.

Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke it. I was
also referring to the poem, not to a particular recording of it (albeit
an authoritative one). However, having listened to the recording I
agree that he pronounced "elegiac" more or less as I would.

You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

[Spains Harden]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is pronounced, partly
because I've never heard it pronounced any other way, and partly because
I'm English and don't expect English usage to obey strict laws of logic.
I've known it long enough to know that it doesn't.

I agree with all of that, but it set me to wondering when I'd first have
heard it pronounced, too long ago for me to remember. At school, in
relation to poetry, I presume, at a young-enough age that I simply
internalised the pronunciation without question.

I don't think I have ever heard the word pronounced. Dylan Thomas's
"Over Sir John's Hill" leaves little doubt about how to pronounce it
in cut-glass English.

How so?

Post by Spains Harden
There
Where the elegiac fisherbird stabs and paddles
In the pebbly dab-filled
Shallow and sedge, and 'dilly dilly,' calls the loft hawk,
'Come and be killed,'

This doesn't suggest anything much about how "elegiac" should be
pronounced. What's an elegiac fisherbird, anyway? Are you under the
impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He sounded
distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard.

http://youtu.be/pklWyh3Q-B4
"Ell-eh-gyick"?

You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to have
heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you proceed by
referring to a recording that you presumably had heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke it. I was
also referring to the poem, not to a particular recording of it (albeit
an authoritative one). However, having listened to the recording I
agree that he pronounced "elegiac" more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

We have herons in SW London and they are stately and dominate the river,
and that is elegiac enough for me.

The idea that Dylan Thomas was "Welsh" in terms of his poetry is a
widely-held misapprehension. He threw off his Welsh accent as soon
as he possibly could on arrival in London.

[Peter Young]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is pronounced, partly
because I've never heard it pronounced any other way, and partly because
I'm English and don't expect English usage to obey strict laws of logic.
I've known it long enough to know that it doesn't.

I agree with all of that, but it set me to wondering when I'd first have
heard it pronounced, too long ago for me to remember. At school, in
relation to poetry, I presume, at a young-enough age that I simply
internalised the pronunciation without question.

I don't think I have ever heard the word pronounced. Dylan Thomas's
"Over Sir John's Hill" leaves little doubt about how to pronounce it
in cut-glass English.

How so?

Post by Spains Harden
There
Where the elegiac fisherbird stabs and paddles
In the pebbly dab-filled
Shallow and sedge, and 'dilly dilly,' calls the loft hawk,
'Come and be killed,'

This doesn't suggest anything much about how "elegiac" should be
pronounced. What's an elegiac fisherbird, anyway? Are you under the
impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He sounded
distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard.

http://youtu.be/pklWyh3Q-B4
"Ell-eh-gyick"?

You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to have
heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you proceed by
referring to a recording that you presumably had heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke it. I was
also referring to the poem, not to a particular recording of it (albeit
an authoritative one). However, having listened to the recording I
agree that he pronounced "elegiac" more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class British
accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.

Peter.

[Spains Harden]

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is pronounced, partly
because I've never heard it pronounced any other way, and partly because
I'm English and don't expect English usage to obey strict laws of logic.
I've known it long enough to know that it doesn't.

I agree with all of that, but it set me to wondering when I'd first have
heard it pronounced, too long ago for me to remember. At school, in
relation to poetry, I presume, at a young-enough age that I simply
internalised the pronunciation without question.

I don't think I have ever heard the word pronounced. Dylan Thomas's
"Over Sir John's Hill" leaves little doubt about how to pronounce it
in cut-glass English.

How so?

Post by Spains Harden
There
Where the elegiac fisherbird stabs and paddles
In the pebbly dab-filled
Shallow and sedge, and 'dilly dilly,' calls the loft hawk,
'Come and be killed,'

This doesn't suggest anything much about how "elegiac" should be
pronounced. What's an elegiac fisherbird, anyway? Are you under the
impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He sounded
distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard.

http://youtu.be/pklWyh3Q-B4
"Ell-eh-gyick"?

You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to have
heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you proceed by
referring to a recording that you presumably had heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke it. I was
also referring to the poem, not to a particular recording of it (albeit
an authoritative one). However, having listened to the recording I
agree that he pronounced "elegiac" more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class British
accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.

Eh? "Orotund"?

[Peter Young]

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is pronounced, partly
because I've never heard it pronounced any other way, and partly because
I'm English and don't expect English usage to obey strict laws of logic.
I've known it long enough to know that it doesn't.

I agree with all of that, but it set me to wondering when I'd first have
heard it pronounced, too long ago for me to remember. At school, in
relation to poetry, I presume, at a young-enough age that I simply
internalised the pronunciation without question.

I don't think I have ever heard the word pronounced. Dylan Thomas's
"Over Sir John's Hill" leaves little doubt about how to pronounce it
in cut-glass English.

How so?

Post by Spains Harden
There
Where the elegiac fisherbird stabs and paddles
In the pebbly dab-filled
Shallow and sedge, and 'dilly dilly,' calls the loft hawk,
'Come and be killed,'

This doesn't suggest anything much about how "elegiac" should be
pronounced. What's an elegiac fisherbird, anyway? Are you under the
impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He sounded
distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard.

http://youtu.be/pklWyh3Q-B4
"Ell-eh-gyick"?

You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to have
heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you proceed by
referring to a recording that you presumably had heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke it. I was
also referring to the poem, not to a particular recording of it (albeit
an authoritative one). However, having listened to the recording I
agree that he pronounced "elegiac" more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class British
accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.

Eh? "Orotund"?

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/orotund

I thought any fule knew that. Useful word, for Dylan Thomas, particularly
the second definition.

Peter.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is pronounced,
partly because I've never heard it pronounced any other way, and
partly because I'm English and don't expect English usage to
obey strict laws of logic. I've known it long enough to know
that it doesn't.

I agree with all of that, but it set me to wondering when I'd
first have heard it pronounced, too long ago for me to remember.
At school, in relation to poetry, I presume, at a young-enough
age that I simply internalised the pronunciation without
question.

I don't think I have ever heard the word pronounced. Dylan
Thomas's "Over Sir John's Hill" leaves little doubt about how to
pronounce it in cut-glass English.

How so?

Post by Spains Harden
There
Where the elegiac fisherbird stabs and paddles
In the pebbly dab-filled
Shallow and sedge, and 'dilly dilly,' calls the loft hawk,
'Come and be killed,'

This doesn't suggest anything much about how "elegiac" should be
pronounced. What's an elegiac fisherbird, anyway? Are you under the
impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He
sounded distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard.

http://youtu.be/pklWyh3Q-B4
"Ell-eh-gyick"?

You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to have
heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you proceed by
referring to a recording that you presumably had heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke it. I
was also referring to the poem, not to a particular recording of it
(albeit an authoritative one). However, having listened to the
recording I agree that he pronounced "elegiac" more or less as I
would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class British
accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.
Peter.

ISRA, sorry. But I did give a utube link.

[musika]

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to have
heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you proceed by
referring to a recording that you presumably had heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke it. I was
also referring to the poem, not to a particular recording of it (albeit
an authoritative one). However, having listened to the recording I
agree that he pronounced "elegiac" more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class British
accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.
Come now, Peter. It was Athel that posted "Are you under the

impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He sounded
distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard."

[Peter Young]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to have
heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you proceed by
referring to a recording that you presumably had heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke it. I was
also referring to the poem, not to a particular recording of it (albeit
an authoritative one). However, having listened to the recording I
agree that he pronounced "elegiac" more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class British
accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.
Come now, Peter. It was Athel that posted "Are you under the

impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He sounded
distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard."

Not to me, in the recordings I've heard.

Peter.

[musika]

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to have
heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you proceed by
referring to a recording that you presumably had heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke it. I was
also referring to the poem, not to a particular recording of it (albeit
an authoritative one). However, having listened to the recording I
agree that he pronounced "elegiac" more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class British
accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.
Come now, Peter. It was Athel that posted "Are you under the

impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He sounded
distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard."

Not to me, in the recordings I've heard.

Indeed, but you suggested that it was Harrison who said that.

[Lewis]

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to have
heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you proceed by
referring to a recording that you presumably had heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke it. I was
also referring to the poem, not to a particular recording of it (albeit
an authoritative one). However, having listened to the recording I
agree that he pronounced "elegiac" more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class British
accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.
Come now, Peter. It was Athel that posted "Are you under the

impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He sounded
distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard."

Not to me, in the recordings I've heard.

Not even a little bit Welsh.

[CDB]

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to
have heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you
proceed by referring to a recording that you presumably had
heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke
it. I was also referring to the poem, not to a particular
recording of it (albeit an authoritative one). However, having
listened to the recording I agree that he pronounced "elegiac"
more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class
British accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.
Come now, Peter. It was Athel that posted "Are you under the

impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He
sounded distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard."

Not to me, in the recordings I've heard.

Nor to me; but I think he kept some of his original intonation.

I remember noticing it many years ago, listening to a tape of Thomas
reading "Fern Hill" -- but that doesn't seem to be found on Youtube.
There is a bit of it in his very expressive reading of his famous
villanelle.

http://youtu.be/1mRec3VbH3w

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by CDB

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to
have heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you
proceed by referring to a recording that you presumably had
heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke
it. I was also referring to the poem, not to a particular
recording of it (albeit an authoritative one). However, having
listened to the recording I agree that he pronounced "elegiac"
more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class
British accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.
Come now, Peter. It was Athel that posted "Are you under the

impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He
sounded distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard."

Not to me, in the recordings I've heard.

Nor to me; but I think he kept some of his original intonation.
I remember noticing it many years ago, listening to a tape of Thomas
reading "Fern Hill" -- but that doesn't seem to be found on Youtube.
There is a bit of it in his very expressive reading of his famous
villanelle.
http://youtu.be/1mRec3VbH3w

Confession time: I was completely wrong, and 'Arrison was right. I
wasn't thinking of the poem, which I hadn't heard before 'Arrison
linked to it, but, primarily, to Under Milk Wood. However, the voice I
was remembering as Welsh wasn't Dylan Thomas's. Still, although his
actual voice wasn't as phoney as, say, Edward Heath's or Mrs Thatcher's
it still doesn't sound completely natural RP. Not that 'Arrison could
tell the difference: I expect he thinks Mrs Thatcher's speech-trained
voice was cut-glass English.

[Spains Harden]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by CDB

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to
have heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you
proceed by referring to a recording that you presumably had
heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke
it. I was also referring to the poem, not to a particular
recording of it (albeit an authoritative one). However, having
listened to the recording I agree that he pronounced "elegiac"
more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class
British accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.
Come now, Peter. It was Athel that posted "Are you under the

impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He
sounded distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard."

Not to me, in the recordings I've heard.

Nor to me; but I think he kept some of his original intonation.
I remember noticing it many years ago, listening to a tape of Thomas
reading "Fern Hill" -- but that doesn't seem to be found on Youtube.
There is a bit of it in his very expressive reading of his famous
villanelle.
http://youtu.be/1mRec3VbH3w

Confession time: I was completely wrong, and 'Arrison was right. I
wasn't thinking of the poem, which I hadn't heard before 'Arrison
linked to it, but, primarily, to Under Milk Wood. However, the voice I
was remembering as Welsh wasn't Dylan Thomas's.

Nor Richard Burton's either who also had all trace of his Welsh accent
washed out of him at an early age. You couldn't then have a Welsh Hamlet.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Still, although his
actual voice wasn't as phoney as, say, Edward Heath's or Mrs Thatcher's
it still doesn't sound completely natural RP. Not that 'Arrison could
tell the difference: I expect he thinks Mrs Thatcher's speech-trained
voice was cut-glass English.
--
athel

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by CDB

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to
have heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you
proceed by referring to a recording that you presumably had
heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke
it. I was also referring to the poem, not to a particular
recording of it (albeit an authoritative one). However, having
listened to the recording I agree that he pronounced "elegiac"
more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class
British accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.
Come now, Peter. It was Athel that posted "Are you under the

impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He
sounded distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard."

Not to me, in the recordings I've heard.

Nor to me; but I think he kept some of his original intonation.
I remember noticing it many years ago, listening to a tape of Thomas
reading "Fern Hill" -- but that doesn't seem to be found on Youtube.
There is a bit of it in his very expressive reading of his famous
villanelle.
http://youtu.be/1mRec3VbH3w

Confession time: I was completely wrong, and 'Arrison was right. I
wasn't thinking of the poem, which I hadn't heard before 'Arrison
linked to it, but, primarily, to Under Milk Wood. However, the voice I
was remembering as Welsh wasn't Dylan Thomas's.

Nor Richard Burton's either who also had all trace of his Welsh accent
washed out of him at an early age.

As Richard Burton could speak Welsh and was a brilliant actor I should
be very surprised if he couldn't sound Welsh when speaking English if
he wanted to.

Post by Spains Harden
You couldn't then have a Welsh Hamlet.

I can't make any sense at all of this sentence.

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Still, although his
actual voice wasn't as phoney as, say, Edward Heath's or Mrs Thatcher's
it still doesn't sound completely natural RP. Not that 'Arrison could
tell the difference: I expect he thinks Mrs Thatcher's speech-trained
voice was cut-glass English.
--
athel

[Katy Jennison]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by CDB

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to
have heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you
proceed by referring to a recording that you presumably had
heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke
it. I was also referring to the poem, not to a particular
recording of it (albeit an authoritative one). However, having
listened to the recording I agree that he pronounced "elegiac"
more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class
British accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.
Come now, Peter. It was Athel that posted "Are you under the

impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He
sounded distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard."

Not to me, in the recordings I've heard.

Nor to me; but I think he kept some of his original intonation.
I remember noticing it many years ago, listening to a tape of Thomas
reading "Fern Hill" -- but that doesn't seem to be found on Youtube.
There is a bit of it in his very expressive reading of his famous
villanelle.
http://youtu.be/1mRec3VbH3w

Confession time: I was completely wrong, and 'Arrison was right. I
wasn't thinking of the poem, which I hadn't heard before 'Arrison
linked to it, but, primarily, to Under Milk Wood. However, the voice I
was remembering as Welsh wasn't Dylan Thomas's.

Nor Richard Burton's either who also had all trace of his Welsh accent
washed out of him at an early age.

As Richard Burton could speak Welsh and was a brilliant actor I should
be very surprised if he couldn't sound Welsh when speaking English if he
wanted to.

Post by Spains Harden
 You couldn't then have a Welsh Hamlet.

I can't make any sense at all of this sentence.

= 'In those days, it wouldn't have been acceptable to play Hamlet with a
Welsh accent.'

(Or any other non-RP accent, either.)

[Lewis]

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by CDB

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to
have heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you
proceed by referring to a recording that you presumably had
heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke
it. I was also referring to the poem, not to a particular
recording of it (albeit an authoritative one). However, having
listened to the recording I agree that he pronounced "elegiac"
more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class
British accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.
Come now, Peter. It was Athel that posted "Are you under the

impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He
sounded distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard."

Not to me, in the recordings I've heard.

Nor to me; but I think he kept some of his original intonation.
I remember noticing it many years ago, listening to a tape of Thomas
reading "Fern Hill" -- but that doesn't seem to be found on Youtube.
There is a bit of it in his very expressive reading of his famous
villanelle.
http://youtu.be/1mRec3VbH3w

Confession time: I was completely wrong, and 'Arrison was right. I
wasn't thinking of the poem, which I hadn't heard before 'Arrison
linked to it, but, primarily, to Under Milk Wood. However, the voice I
was remembering as Welsh wasn't Dylan Thomas's.

Nor Richard Burton's either who also had all trace of his Welsh accent
washed out of him at an early age.

As Richard Burton could speak Welsh and was a brilliant actor I should
be very surprised if he couldn't sound Welsh when speaking English if he
wanted to.

Post by Spains Harden
 You couldn't then have a Welsh Hamlet.

I can't make any sense at all of this sentence.

= 'In those days, it wouldn't have been acceptable to play Hamlet with a
Welsh accent.'
(Or any other non-RP accent, either.)

That implies it would be OK to play Hamlet in a Welsh accent now?

I mean, would it be outside of Wales?

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Lewis

Post by Katy Jennison
= 'In those days, it wouldn't have been acceptable to play Hamlet with a
Welsh accent.'
(Or any other non-RP accent, either.)

That implies it would be OK to play Hamlet in a Welsh accent now?
I mean, would it be outside of Wales?

Of course not. Everyone knows that Hamlet was English.

[Lewis]

Post by Lewis

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by CDB

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to
have heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you
proceed by referring to a recording that you presumably had
heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke
it. I was also referring to the poem, not to a particular
recording of it (albeit an authoritative one). However, having
listened to the recording I agree that he pronounced "elegiac"
more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class
British accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.
Come now, Peter. It was Athel that posted "Are you under the

impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He
sounded distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard."

Not to me, in the recordings I've heard.

Nor to me; but I think he kept some of his original intonation.
I remember noticing it many years ago, listening to a tape of Thomas
reading "Fern Hill" -- but that doesn't seem to be found on Youtube.
There is a bit of it in his very expressive reading of his famous
villanelle.
http://youtu.be/1mRec3VbH3w

Confession time: I was completely wrong, and 'Arrison was right. I
wasn't thinking of the poem, which I hadn't heard before 'Arrison
linked to it, but, primarily, to Under Milk Wood. However, the voice I
was remembering as Welsh wasn't Dylan Thomas's.

Nor Richard Burton's either who also had all trace of his Welsh accent
washed out of him at an early age.

As Richard Burton could speak Welsh and was a brilliant actor I should
be very surprised if he couldn't sound Welsh when speaking English if he
wanted to.

Post by Spains Harden
 You couldn't then have a Welsh Hamlet.

I can't make any sense at all of this sentence.

= 'In those days, it wouldn't have been acceptable to play Hamlet with a
Welsh accent.'
(Or any other non-RP accent, either.)

That implies it would be OK to play Hamlet in a Welsh accent now?
I mean, would it be outside of Wales?

I imagine that these days you could have Hamlet played by an African
woman with an accent from Patagonia.

Sure, but NOT in a Welsh accent.

(I love the Welsh, honestly, they are so easy to tease!)

"Oh, Jeffery!"

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Tue, 12 Nov 2019 05:48:27 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by CDB

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to
have heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you
proceed by referring to a recording that you presumably had
heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke
it. I was also referring to the poem, not to a particular
recording of it (albeit an authoritative one). However, having
listened to the recording I agree that he pronounced "elegiac"
more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class
British accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.
Come now, Peter. It was Athel that posted "Are you under the

impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He
sounded distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard."

Not to me, in the recordings I've heard.

Nor to me; but I think he kept some of his original intonation.
I remember noticing it many years ago, listening to a tape of Thomas
reading "Fern Hill" -- but that doesn't seem to be found on Youtube.
There is a bit of it in his very expressive reading of his famous
villanelle.
http://youtu.be/1mRec3VbH3w

Confession time: I was completely wrong, and 'Arrison was right. I
wasn't thinking of the poem, which I hadn't heard before 'Arrison
linked to it, but, primarily, to Under Milk Wood. However, the voice I
was remembering as Welsh wasn't Dylan Thomas's.

Nor Richard Burton's either who also had all trace of his Welsh accent
washed out of him at an early age.

As Richard Burton could speak Welsh and was a brilliant actor I should
be very surprised if he couldn't sound Welsh when speaking English if he
wanted to.

Post by Spains Harden
 You couldn't then have a Welsh Hamlet.

I can't make any sense at all of this sentence.

= 'In those days, it wouldn't have been acceptable to play Hamlet with a
Welsh accent.'
(Or any other non-RP accent, either.)

That implies it would be OK to play Hamlet in a Welsh accent now?
I mean, would it be outside of Wales?

I imagine that these days you could have Hamlet played by an African
woman with an accent from Patagonia.

Sure, but NOT in a Welsh accent.

What about a Patagonian Welsh acent?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patagonian_Welsh

Post by Lewis
(I love the Welsh, honestly, they are so easy to tease!)
"Oh, Jeffery!"

[Spains Harden]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by CDB

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to
have heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you
proceed by referring to a recording that you presumably had
heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke
it. I was also referring to the poem, not to a particular
recording of it (albeit an authoritative one). However, having
listened to the recording I agree that he pronounced "elegiac"
more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class
British accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.
Come now, Peter. It was Athel that posted "Are you under the

impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He
sounded distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard."

Not to me, in the recordings I've heard.

Nor to me; but I think he kept some of his original intonation.
I remember noticing it many years ago, listening to a tape of Thomas
reading "Fern Hill" -- but that doesn't seem to be found on Youtube.
There is a bit of it in his very expressive reading of his famous
villanelle.
http://youtu.be/1mRec3VbH3w

Confession time: I was completely wrong, and 'Arrison was right. I
wasn't thinking of the poem, which I hadn't heard before 'Arrison
linked to it, but, primarily, to Under Milk Wood. However, the voice I
was remembering as Welsh wasn't Dylan Thomas's.

Nor Richard Burton's either who also had all trace of his Welsh accent
washed out of him at an early age.

As Richard Burton could speak Welsh and was a brilliant actor I should
be very surprised if he couldn't sound Welsh when speaking English if
he wanted to.

Post by Spains Harden
You couldn't then have a Welsh Hamlet.

I can't make any sense at all of this sentence.

A certain dialect was at that time required to play Hamlet. Since
Hamlet was Danish, a Welsh accent was not appropriate. Why an English
RP accent was appropriate, I have no idea. Wiki on Richard Burton - who
is probably the Welshman you remember reading "Under Milk Wood":

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Burton>

"Under Milk Wood" read by Richard Burton in the 1954 original. He got
it perfect - but not in Welsh.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Still, although his
actual voice wasn't as phoney as, say, Edward Heath's or Mrs Thatcher's
it still doesn't sound completely natural RP. Not that 'Arrison could
tell the difference: I expect he thinks Mrs Thatcher's speech-trained
voice was cut-glass English.
--
athel

--
athel

[Lewis]

[ … ]

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
As Richard Burton could speak Welsh and was a brilliant actor I should
be very surprised if he couldn't sound Welsh when speaking English if
he wanted to.

Post by Spains Harden
You couldn't then have a Welsh Hamlet.

I can't make any sense at all of this sentence.

A certain dialect was at that time required to play Hamlet. Since
Hamlet was Danish, a Welsh accent was not appropriate. Why an English
RP accent was appropriate, I have no idea.

He was a prince, of course. Modern princes sound as if they grew up in
Essex, but in the past they tended to be RP speakers.

I cannot get my head around Essex. I suspect it maps culturally to new
Jersey or maybe Long Island, but I really am not sure about that.

The only show that really showed it very well seemed to be Gavin and
Stacey, and though it was brilliant, it didn't really have enough for a
foreigner to really figure it all out.

Wales, on the other hand, is easy: Kentucky with sheep.

[HVS]

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:29:21 -0800 (PST), Spains Harden

On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 1:47:27 PM UTC, Athel

-snip

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Confession time: I was completely wrong, and 'Arrison was right. I
wasn't thinking of the poem, which I hadn't heard before 'Arrison
linked to it, but, primarily, to Under Milk Wood. However, the voice I
was remembering as Welsh wasn't Dylan Thomas's.

Nor Richard Burton's either who also had all trace of his Welsh accent
washed out of him at an early age. You couldn't then have a Welsh Hamlet.

Whereas Anthony Hopkins's accent has become decidedly more Welsh as
he's got older.

Cheers, Harvey

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by HVS
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:29:21 -0800 (PST), Spains Harden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
However, the voice I
was remembering as Welsh wasn't Dylan Thomas's.

Nor Richard Burton's either who also had all trace of his Welsh

accent

Post by Spains Harden
washed out of him at an early age. You couldn't then have a Welsh

Hamlet.
Whereas Anthony Hopkins's accent has become decidedly more Welsh as
he's got older.

And then there's Sean Connery. And Raul Julia.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 13:48:29 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by CDB

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Young

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to
have heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you
proceed by referring to a recording that you presumably had
heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke
it. I was also referring to the poem, not to a particular
recording of it (albeit an authoritative one). However, having
listened to the recording I agree that he pronounced "elegiac"
more or less as I would.
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

He hasn't also fully explained what an orotund very high-class
British accent Dylan Thomas had. Nothing Welsh about it at all.
Come now, Peter. It was Athel that posted "Are you under the

impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He
sounded distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard."

Not to me, in the recordings I've heard.

Nor to me; but I think he kept some of his original intonation.
I remember noticing it many years ago, listening to a tape of Thomas
reading "Fern Hill" -- but that doesn't seem to be found on Youtube.
There is a bit of it in his very expressive reading of his famous
villanelle.
http://youtu.be/1mRec3VbH3w

Confession time: I was completely wrong, and 'Arrison was right. I
wasn't thinking of the poem, which I hadn't heard before 'Arrison
linked to it, but, primarily, to Under Milk Wood. However, the voice I
was remembering as Welsh wasn't Dylan Thomas's. Still, although his

Richard Burton did a posh Welsh voice. That might be it.

6Q7j7tQFfJ7GfWNQ&index=3

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
actual voice wasn't as phoney as, say, Edward Heath's or Mrs Thatcher's
it still doesn't sound completely natural RP. Not that 'Arrison could
tell the difference: I expect he thinks Mrs Thatcher's speech-trained
voice was cut-glass English.

[CDB]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is
pronounced, partly because I've never heard it pronounced
any other way, and partly because I'm English and don't
expect English usage to obey strict laws of logic. I've
known it long enough to know that it doesn't.

I agree with all of that, but it set me to wondering when I'd
first have heard it pronounced, too long ago for me to
remember. At school, in relation to poetry, I presume, at a
young-enough age that I simply internalised the pronunciation
without question.

I don't think I have ever heard the word pronounced. Dylan
Thomas's "Over Sir John's Hill" leaves little doubt about how
to pronounce it in cut-glass English.

How so?

Post by Spains Harden
There Where the elegiac fisherbird stabs and paddles In the
pebbly dab-filled Shallow and sedge, and 'dilly dilly,' calls
the loft hawk, 'Come and be killed,'

This doesn't suggest anything much about how "elegiac" should be
pronounced. What's an elegiac fisherbird, anyway? Are you under
the impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He
sounded distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard.

http://youtu.be/pklWyh3Q-B4
"Ell-eh-gyick"?

You're contradicting yourself. On the one hand you claim not to have
heard the word pronounced, but on the other hand you proceed by
referring to a recording that you presumably had heard.
Your post referred to the poem, not to the way the poet spoke it. I
was also referring to the poem, not to a particular recording of it
(albeit an authoritative one). However, having listened to the
recording I agree that he pronounced "elegiac" more or less as I
would.

Occasionally one must agree with Mr 'Arden. I looked up the poem in
written form, even though we have discussed it here before, and was
convinced by my own reading that the line demands a stress on the third
syllable. The other possibility does unfortunate things to the rhythm.
(IMHO, of course.)

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You haven't explained what you think an elegiac fisherbird is.

Five feet from stem to gudgeon?

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 17:24:38 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is pronounced,
partly because I've never heard it pronounced any other way, and
partly because I'm English and don't expect English usage to obey
strict laws of logic. I've known it long enough to know that it
doesn't.

I agree with all of that, but it set me to wondering when I'd first
have heard it pronounced, too long ago for me to remember. At
school, in relation to poetry, I presume, at a young-enough age that
I simply internalised the pronunciation without question.

I don't think I have ever heard the word pronounced. Dylan Thomas's
"Over Sir John's Hill" leaves little doubt about how to pronounce it
in cut-glass English.

How so?

Post by Spains Harden
There
Where the elegiac fisherbird stabs and paddles
In the pebbly dab-filled
Shallow and sedge, and 'dilly dilly,' calls the loft hawk,
'Come and be killed,'

This doesn't suggest anything much about how "elegiac" should be
pronounced. What's an elegiac fisherbird, anyway? Are you under the
impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He sounded
distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard.

He tried his best to sound RP, IMO.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 17:24:38 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is pronounced,
partly because I've never heard it pronounced any other way, and
partly because I'm English and don't expect English usage to obey
strict laws of logic. I've known it long enough to know that it
doesn't.

I agree with all of that, but it set me to wondering when I'd first
have heard it pronounced, too long ago for me to remember. At
school, in relation to poetry, I presume, at a young-enough age that
I simply internalised the pronunciation without question.

I don't think I have ever heard the word pronounced. Dylan Thomas's
"Over Sir John's Hill" leaves little doubt about how to pronounce it
in cut-glass English.

How so?

Post by Spains Harden
There
Where the elegiac fisherbird stabs and paddles
In the pebbly dab-filled
Shallow and sedge, and 'dilly dilly,' calls the loft hawk,
'Come and be killed,'

This doesn't suggest anything much about how "elegiac" should be
pronounced. What's an elegiac fisherbird, anyway? Are you under the
impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He sounded
distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard.

He tried his best to sound RP, IMO.

He was trying, yes, but it didn't come naturally.

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
http://youtu.be/1mRec3VbH3w

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 17:24:38 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Spains Harden

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is pronounced,
partly because I've never heard it pronounced any other way, and
partly because I'm English and don't expect English usage to obey
strict laws of logic. I've known it long enough to know that it
doesn't.

I agree with all of that, but it set me to wondering when I'd first
have heard it pronounced, too long ago for me to remember. At
school, in relation to poetry, I presume, at a young-enough age that
I simply internalised the pronunciation without question.

I don't think I have ever heard the word pronounced. Dylan Thomas's
"Over Sir John's Hill" leaves little doubt about how to pronounce it
in cut-glass English.

How so?

Post by Spains Harden
There
Where the elegiac fisherbird stabs and paddles
In the pebbly dab-filled
Shallow and sedge, and 'dilly dilly,' calls the loft hawk,
'Come and be killed,'

This doesn't suggest anything much about how "elegiac" should be
pronounced. What's an elegiac fisherbird, anyway? Are you under the
impression that Dylan Thomas spoke in "cut-glass English"? He sounded
distinctly Welsh in recordings I've heard.

He tried his best to sound RP, IMO.

He was trying, yes, but it didn't come naturally.

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
http://youtu.be/1mRec3VbH3w

We sometimes still get "A Child's Christmas in Wales," where, presumably,
the Welsh dialect comes out more. ("Mr Daniel looks like a spaniel" -- no
relation.)

[Quinn C]

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is pronounced, partly
because I've never heard it pronounced any other way, and partly because
I'm English and don't expect English usage to obey strict laws of logic.
I've known it long enough to know that it doesn't.

I agree with all of that, but it set me to wondering when I'd first have
heard it pronounced, too long ago for me to remember. At school, in
relation to poetry, I presume, at a young-enough age that I simply
internalised the pronunciation without question.

Sure, but especially for us non-natives, it's the kind of word that you
may have mispronounced in your head for 20 years before you heard it
out loud.

[Katy Jennison]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't have any problem with the way "elegiac" is pronounced, partly
because I've never heard it pronounced any other way, and partly because
I'm English and don't expect English usage to obey strict laws of logic.
I've known it long enough to know that it doesn't.

I agree with all of that, but it set me to wondering when I'd first have
heard it pronounced, too long ago for me to remember. At school, in
relation to poetry, I presume, at a young-enough age that I simply
internalised the pronunciation without question.

Sure, but especially for us non-natives, it's the kind of word that you
may have mispronounced in your head for 20 years before you heard it
out loud.

Oh yes, indeed -- and true for us too, though less (or fewer) for
obvious reasons. We don't notice if after twenty years it turns out
we'd got it right by accident after all, but I wouldn't be very
surprised if I still, after a lot more than twenty years, happened
across a word I'd never chanced to hear pronounced and had got wrong all
this time.

The worst for me was doing an Open University science course, which was
mainly by correspondence: this was in the very early days of the OU,
when it hadn't occurred to the scientists writing the courses that
including a pronunciation guide might be a good idea.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Katy Jennison
[ … ]
The worst for me was doing an Open University science course, which was
mainly by correspondence: this was in the very early days of the OU,
when it hadn't occurred to the scientists writing the courses that
including a pronunciation guide might be a good idea.

I once inserted a pronunciation footnote into a nomenclature document I
was preparing for the International Union of Biochemistry, which
referred to Dalziel coefficients, introduced by Keith Dalziel. It said
that "Dalziel" was pronounced [dɪj'el], essentially the same as the
prefix D,L in D,L-lactic acid. The wikiparticle at
https://wiki2.org/en/Keith_Dalziel leaves readers in the dark about
this important question.

I probably have the same footnote in my book that refers to Dalziel,
but I can't check at the moment because the book is in Marseilles and
I'm in Paris, on a cold rainy day.

[charles]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Katy Jennison
[ Π]
The worst for me was doing an Open University science course, which was
mainly by correspondence: this was in the very early days of the OU,
when it hadn't occurred to the scientists writing the courses that
including a pronunciation guide might be a good idea.

I once inserted a pronunciation footnote into a nomenclature document I
was preparing for the International Union of Biochemistry, which
referred to Dalziel coefficients, introduced by Keith Dalziel. It said
that "Dalziel" was pronounced [d#j'el], essentially the same as the
prefix D,L in D,L-lactic acid. The wikiparticle at
https://wiki2.org/en/Keith_Dalziel leaves readers in the dark about
this important question.
I probably have the same footnote in my book that refers to Dalziel,
but I can't check at the moment because the book is in Marseilles and
I'm in Paris, on a cold rainy day.

That's certainly how my late cousin, Tam, the MP who asked The West Lothian
Question', pronounced it.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by charles

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Katy Jennison
[ Π]
The worst for me was doing an Open University science course, which was
mainly by correspondence: this was in the very early days of the OU,
when it hadn't occurred to the scientists writing the courses that
including a pronunciation guide might be a good idea.

I once inserted a pronunciation footnote into a nomenclature document I
was preparing for the International Union of Biochemistry, which
referred to Dalziel coefficients, introduced by Keith Dalziel. It said
that "Dalziel" was pronounced [d#j'el], essentially the same as the
prefix D,L in D,L-lactic acid. The wikiparticle at
https://wiki2.org/en/Keith_Dalziel leaves readers in the dark about
this important question.
I probably have the same footnote in my book that refers to Dalziel,
but I can't check at the moment because the book is in Marseilles and
I'm in Paris, on a cold rainy day.

That's certainly how my late cousin, Tam, the MP who asked The West Lothian
Question', pronounced it.

One of the great MPs of our lifetime. It's hard to think of any others.
However, I think he spelt it Dalyell. He was, of course, Scottish, but
my Dalziel cam from Birkenhead.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I once inserted a pronunciation footnote into a nomenclature document
I was preparing for the International Union of Biochemistry, which
referred to Dalziel coefficients, introduced by Keith Dalziel. It
said that "Dalziel" was pronounced [dɪj'el], essentially the same as
the prefix D,L in D,L-lactic acid. The wikiparticle at
https://wiki2.org/en/Keith_Dalziel leaves readers in the dark about
this important question.
I probably have the same footnote in my book that refers to Dalziel,
but I can't check at the moment because the book is in Marseilles and
I'm in Paris, on a cold rainy day.

I often hear radio ads for a company called DL's Home Improvements. The
initials apparently stand for David Laughton, but whenever I hear the ad
I hear it as Dalziel's Home Improvements.

Over the years I've had to tell students about many names they'd been
mispronouncing. Some that now spring to mind are Wirth, Knuth, Dijkstra,
Kirchhoff, Lyapunov ... and there are surely many more that have now
slipped my mind.

On the other hand I once, to my great embarrassment, accidentally
mispronounced Schmitt in a lecture.

[Lewis]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I once inserted a pronunciation footnote into a nomenclature document
I was preparing for the International Union of Biochemistry, which
referred to Dalziel coefficients, introduced by Keith Dalziel. It
said that "Dalziel" was pronounced [dɪj'el], essentially the same as
the prefix D,L in D,L-lactic acid. The wikiparticle at
https://wiki2.org/en/Keith_Dalziel leaves readers in the dark about
this important question.
I probably have the same footnote in my book that refers to Dalziel,
but I can't check at the moment because the book is in Marseilles and
I'm in Paris, on a cold rainy day.

I often hear radio ads for a company called DL's Home Improvements. The
initials apparently stand for David Laughton, but whenever I hear the ad
I hear it as Dalziel's Home Improvements.
Over the years I've had to tell students about many names they'd been
mispronouncing. Some that now spring to mind are Wirth, Knuth, Dijkstra,
Kirchhoff, Lyapunov ... and there are surely many more that have now
slipped my mind.
On the other hand I once, to my great embarrassment, accidentally
mispronounced Schmitt in a lecture.

Oh shit!

[b***@shaw.ca]

Post by Peter Moylan
On the other hand I once, to my great embarrassment, accidentally
mispronounced Schmitt in a lecture.

In Canada, that's called being up Schitt's Creek.

bill

[Richard Heathfield]

On 12/11/2019 04:10, Peter Moylan wrote:

<snip>

Post by Peter Moylan
Over the years I've had to tell students about many names they'd been
mispronouncing. Some that now spring to mind are Wirth, Knuth, Dijkstra,
Kirchhoff, Lyapunov ... and there are surely many more that have now
slipped my mind.

Kernighan (as in Brian W).

It turns out the 'g' is silent - ker-ni-han. Not a lot of people know that.

[Mark Brader]

Post by Richard Heathfield
Kernighan (as in Brian W).
It turns out the 'g' is silent - ker-ni-han. Not a lot of people know that.

I'm surprised at that claim. Consider USENIX and similar conferences,
where his name is likely to come up even plenty if he isn't there
himself. Lots of opportunity to hear it pronounced.

He is, however, the only person I've ever met whose name occurs in the
OED *misspelled*.

[Richard Heathfield]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Richard Heathfield
Kernighan (as in Brian W).
It turns out the 'g' is silent - ker-ni-han. Not a lot of people know that.

I'm surprised at that claim. Consider USENIX and similar conferences,
where his name is likely to come up even plenty if he isn't there
himself. Lots of opportunity to hear it pronounced.

Quite a few videos exist of Mr Kernighan, and all the ones I looked at
either didn't mention his surname aloud at all - "well, Brian, let's
talk about so-and-so..." - or pronounced it with the 'g', and I never
heard him correct anyone - so either I'm wrong or he just isn't that
bothered about it. SO... why do I make the claim? Well, here's my source:

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mihaib/kernighan-interview/

M: What is the correct way to pronounce your name? I heard that it is
not the obvious way?

K: It's pronounced Kernihan, the g is silent.

That's all I've got. If the interview is faked (which I have no reason
to suspect), then I guess I'm Just Plain Wrong.

Post by Mark Brader
He is, however, the only person I've ever met whose name occurs in the
OED *misspelled*.

Oops!

[Lewis]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Richard Heathfield
Kernighan (as in Brian W).
It turns out the 'g' is silent - ker-ni-han. Not a lot of people know that.

I'm surprised at that claim. Consider USENIX and similar conferences,
where his name is likely to come up even plenty if he isn't there
himself. Lots of opportunity to hear it pronounced.

And lots of opportunity to hear it mispronounced. The TA for my freshman
computer class, along with most of the students, mispronounced it until
the professor intervened.

Post by Mark Brader
He is, however, the only person I've ever met whose name occurs in the
OED *misspelled*.

That's impressive.

[Quinn C]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Richard Heathfield
Kernighan (as in Brian W).
It turns out the 'g' is silent - ker-ni-han. Not a lot of people know that.

I'm surprised at that claim. Consider USENIX and similar conferences,
where his name is likely to come up even plenty if he isn't there
himself. Lots of opportunity to hear it pronounced.

That may make for a lot in absolute terms, but it may still be "not a
lot" in relative terms. I've heard the name said by a number of people,
but I didn't pick up on the silent g. Can't say whether it's their
fault or mine.

OTOH, without being confident about it, I did say Knuth correctly in my
head. Must've heard that.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Peter Moylan
Over the years I've had to tell students about many names they'd been
mispronouncing. Some that now spring to mind are Wirth, Knuth, Dijkstra,
Kirchhoff, Lyapunov ... and there are surely many more that have now
slipped my mind.

Kernighan (as in Brian W).
It turns out the 'g' is silent - ker-ni-han. Not a lot of people know that.

I can believe that, since I'm descended from a Callaghan (Irish
pronunciation).

[Ken Blake]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Peter Moylan
Over the years I've had to tell students about many names they'd been
mispronouncing. Some that now spring to mind are Wirth, Knuth, Dijkstra,
Kirchhoff, Lyapunov ... and there are surely many more that have now
slipped my mind.

Kernighan (as in Brian W).
It turns out the 'g' is silent - ker-ni-han. Not a lot of people know that.

I can believe that, since I'm descended from a Callaghan (Irish
pronunciation).

There's a Callaghan winery near here (Tucson, Arizona). The G is silent
in that name too.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>

Post by Peter Moylan
Over the years I've had to tell students about many names they'd been
mispronouncing. Some that now spring to mind are Wirth, Knuth, Dijkstra,
Kirchhoff, Lyapunov ... and there are surely many more that have now
slipped my mind.

Kernighan (as in Brian W).
It turns out the 'g' is silent - ker-ni-han. Not a lot of people know that.

I didn't know it, so I thank you for pointing it out.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I once inserted a pronunciation footnote into a nomenclature document
I was preparing for the International Union of Biochemistry, which
referred to Dalziel coefficients, introduced by Keith Dalziel. It
said that "Dalziel" was pronounced [dɪj'el], essentially the same as
the prefix D,L in D,L-lactic acid. The wikiparticle at
https://wiki2.org/en/Keith_Dalziel leaves readers in the dark about
this important question.
I probably have the same footnote in my book that refers to Dalziel,
but I can't check at the moment because the book is in Marseilles and
I'm in Paris, on a cold rainy day.

I often hear radio ads for a company called DL's Home Improvements. The
initials apparently stand for David Laughton, but whenever I hear the ad
I hear it as Dalziel's Home Improvements.
Over the years I've had to tell students about many names they'd been
mispronouncing. Some that now spring to mind are Wirth, Knuth, Dijkstra,
Kirchhoff, Lyapunov ... and there are surely many more that have now
slipped my mind.

Ampère?

I tell my students that some people, including me, say /'***@rkOf/, and
some people say /'***@rtSOf/, and they're equally wrong. If there aren't
any German speakers in the class (there usually aren't), I'll give the
German a shot.

Likewise I may give "Huygens" a shot before telling the students that I
say /'***@ns/ like everybody else. And I give "Coulomb" a pretty good
shot before telling them I say /'kulAm/ like everybody else, since (as
I'm afraid I've mentioned here before) in an area where a lot of people
speak Spanish, using the French pronunciation seems like a bad idea.
(_Culón_ means something like "having a big ass".)

I suppose that if I were onto my job (as a Robertson Davies character
said), I'd find native pronunciations on the Web and play them for the
students.

Post by Peter Moylan
On the other hand I once, to my great embarrassment, accidentally
mispronounced Schmitt in a lecture.

As "Smith", I hope.

[Ken Blake]

Above, I mentioned the name Lyapunov. If you look at the Russian
spelling Ляпуно́в, it is obvious that the name has three syllables.
Almost all of the English speakers I have met who know the name
pronounce it with four syllables. It is as if English speakers are
unable to pronounce the [lj] combination.

I think it's more a matter of just not knowing the correct
pronunciation. Something very similar happens with a lot of Italian
names. For example "Giovanni" has three syllables (jo-VAH-nee), but is
often heard in the US with four (gee-oh-VAH-nee).

In Italian the gl combination is similar to the Russian lj, and is also
often mispronounced, for example in the name "Modigliani," which should
be pronounced mo-DEEL-yah-nee, but is often mispronounced
mo-dig-lee-AH-nee.

However English has that same lj or gl sound, for example in the word
"million."

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Ken Blake

Above, I mentioned the name Lyapunov. If you look at the Russian
spelling Ляпуно́в, it is obvious that the name has three syllables.
Almost all of the English speakers I have met who know the name
pronounce it with four syllables. It is as if English speakers are
unable to pronounce the [lj] combination.

I think it's more a matter of just not knowing the correct
pronunciation. Something very similar happens with a lot of Italian
names. For example "Giovanni" has three syllables (jo-VAH-nee), but is
often heard in the US with four (gee-oh-VAH-nee).
In Italian the gl combination is similar to the Russian lj, and is also
often mispronounced, for example in the name "Modigliani," which should
be pronounced mo-DEEL-yah-nee, but is often mispronounced
mo-dig-lee-AH-nee.

Most English speakers stress "Lyon" on a syllable that isn't present.

Post by Ken Blake
However English has that same lj or gl sound, for example in the word
"million."

[charles]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Ken Blake

Above, I mentioned the name Lyapunov. If you look at the Russian
spelling Ляпуно#в, it is obvious that the name has three syllables.
Almost all of the English speakers I have met who know the name
pronounce it with four syllables. It is as if English speakers are
unable to pronounce the [lj] combination.

I think it's more a matter of just not knowing the correct
pronunciation. Something very similar happens with a lot of Italian
names. For example "Giovanni" has three syllables (jo-VAH-nee), but is
often heard in the US with four (gee-oh-VAH-nee).
In Italian the gl combination is similar to the Russian lj, and is also
often mispronounced, for example in the name "Modigliani," which should
be pronounced mo-DEEL-yah-nee, but is often mispronounced
mo-dig-lee-AH-nee.

Most English speakers stress "Lyon" on a syllable that isn't present.

as Li-on?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by charles

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Ken Blake

Above, I mentioned the name Lyapunov. If you look at the Russian
spelling Ляпуно#в, it is obvious that the name has three syllables.
Almost all of the English speakers I have met who know the name
pronounce it with four syllables. It is as if English speakers are
unable to pronounce the [lj] combination.

I think it's more a matter of just not knowing the correct
pronunciation. Something very similar happens with a lot of Italian
names. For example "Giovanni" has three syllables (jo-VAH-nee), but is
often heard in the US with four (gee-oh-VAH-nee).
In Italian the gl combination is similar to the Russian lj, and is also
often mispronounced, for example in the name "Modigliani," which should
be pronounced mo-DEEL-yah-nee, but is often mispronounced
mo-dig-lee-AH-nee.

Most English speakers stress "Lyon" on a syllable that isn't present.

as Li-on?

Yes. "Lyon" has one vowel and one syllable. "Ly" is the [lj] discussed earlier.

[Katy Jennison]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by charles

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Ken Blake

Above, I mentioned the name Lyapunov. If you look at the Russian
spelling Ляпуно#в, it is obvious that the name has three syllables.
Almost all of the English speakers I have met who know the name
pronounce it with four syllables. It is as if English speakers are
unable to pronounce the [lj] combination.

I think it's more a matter of just not knowing the correct
pronunciation. Something very similar happens with a lot of Italian
names. For example "Giovanni" has three syllables (jo-VAH-nee), but is
often heard in the US with four (gee-oh-VAH-nee).
In Italian the gl combination is similar to the Russian lj, and is also
often mispronounced, for example in the name "Modigliani," which should
be pronounced mo-DEEL-yah-nee, but is often mispronounced
mo-dig-lee-AH-nee.

Most English speakers stress "Lyon" on a syllable that isn't present.

as Li-on?

Yes. "Lyon" has one vowel and one syllable. "Ly" is the [lj] discussed earlier.

I remember (and I can't be the only one) when we pronounced it 'lions'.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by charles

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Ken Blake

Above, I mentioned the name Lyapunov. If you look at the Russian
spelling Ляпуно#в, it is obvious that the name has three syllables.
Almost all of the English speakers I have met who know the name
pronounce it with four syllables. It is as if English speakers are
unable to pronounce the [lj] combination.

I think it's more a matter of just not knowing the correct
pronunciation. Something very similar happens with a lot of Italian
names. For example "Giovanni" has three syllables (jo-VAH-nee), but is
often heard in the US with four (gee-oh-VAH-nee).
In Italian the gl combination is similar to the Russian lj, and is also
often mispronounced, for example in the name "Modigliani," which should
be pronounced mo-DEEL-yah-nee, but is often mispronounced
mo-dig-lee-AH-nee.

Most English speakers stress "Lyon" on a syllable that isn't present.

as Li-on?

Yes. "Lyon" has one vowel and one syllable. "Ly" is the [lj] discussed earlier.

I remember (and I can't be the only one) when we pronounced it 'lions'.

I think I probably did in the mists of time. When did it lose its s in
English? Many people (including me, after being told I should by a
Fracophone Belgian) still give Marseilles its final s. I would have
expected either both to lose them or both to retain them.

[charles]

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by charles

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Ken Blake

Above, I mentioned the name Lyapunov. If you look at the Russian
spelling Ляпуно#в, it is obvious that the name has three syllables.
Almost all of the English speakers I have met who know the name
pronounce it with four syllables. It is as if English speakers are
unable to pronounce the [lj] combination.

I think it's more a matter of just not knowing the correct
pronunciation. Something very similar happens with a lot of Italian
names. For example "Giovanni" has three syllables (jo-VAH-nee), but is
often heard in the US with four (gee-oh-VAH-nee).
In Italian the gl combination is similar to the Russian lj, and is also
often mispronounced, for example in the name "Modigliani," which should
be pronounced mo-DEEL-yah-nee, but is often mispronounced
mo-dig-lee-AH-nee.

Most English speakers stress "Lyon" on a syllable that isn't present.

as Li-on?

Yes. "Lyon" has one vowel and one syllable. "Ly" is the [lj] discussed earlier.

I remember (and I can't be the only one) when we pronounced it 'lions'.
--
Katy

we had a history master at school who talked about the battle of Poy-teers

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by charles

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Most English speakers stress "Lyon" on a syllable that isn't present.

as Li-on?

Yes. "Lyon" has one vowel and one syllable. "Ly" is the [lj] discussed earlier.

I remember (and I can't be the only one) when we pronounced it 'lions'.

As in the well-known US movie reviewer Jeffrey Lyons.

[charles]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by charles

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Ken Blake

Above, I mentioned the name Lyapunov. If you look at the Russian
spelling Ляпуно#в, it is obvious that the name has three syllables.
Almost all of the English speakers I have met who know the name
pronounce it with four syllables. It is as if English speakers are
unable to pronounce the [lj] combination.

I think it's more a matter of just not knowing the correct
pronunciation. Something very similar happens with a lot of Italian
names. For example "Giovanni" has three syllables (jo-VAH-nee), but
is often heard in the US with four (gee-oh-VAH-nee).
In Italian the gl combination is similar to the Russian lj, and is
also often mispronounced, for example in the name "Modigliani," which
should be pronounced mo-DEEL-yah-nee, but is often mispronounced
mo-dig-lee-AH-nee.

Most English speakers stress "Lyon" on a syllable that isn't present.

as Li-on?

Yes. "Lyon" has one vowel and one syllable. "Ly" is the [lj] discussed earlier.

Of course, in Scotland there is the heraldic office of Lord Lyon, That is
pronounced as "Lion". But, I hope my French pronunciation is better than
that. I have been asked, in Switerland admittedly, which part of France I
came from, the enquirer couldn't place my accent

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

[ … ]
Above, I mentioned the name Lyapunov. If you look at the Russian
spelling Ляпуно́в, it is obvious that the name has three syllables.
Almost all of the English speakers I have met who know the name
pronounce it with four syllables. It is as if English speakers are
unable to pronounce the [lj] combination.

I don't have any problem with the [lj] but I don't almost remember the
final stress. (I should, though, because I think most names ending in
-ov have final stress.) Actually I'm more interested in the mothers of
Victor Henri, the sisters Sofia and Alexandra, née Ляпунова, and there
it's easy to guess where the stress is. They were first cousins of the
famous Ляпунов. Which of the three brothers you consider to be the
famous one depends on whether you're most interested in mathematics,
philology or composition. In your case I'd guess mathematics.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

[ … ]
Above, I mentioned the name Lyapunov. If you look at the Russian
spelling Ляпуно́в, it is obvious that the name has three
syllables. Almost all of the English speakers I have met who know
the name pronounce it with four syllables. It is as if English
speakers are unable to pronounce the [lj] combination.

I don't have any problem with the [lj] but I don't almost remember
the final stress. (I should, though, because I think most names
ending in -ov have final stress.) Actually I'm more interested in the
mothers of Victor Henri, the sisters Sofia and Alexandra, née
Ляпунова, and there it's easy to guess where the stress is. They were
first cousins of the famous Ляпунов. Which of the three brothers you
consider to be the famous one depends on whether you're most
interested in mathematics, philology or composition. In your case I'd
guess mathematics.

As a Master's student I was very much dependent on a book about matrix
operations that we called "Fadeev and Fadeeva". At the time I had no
idea that the two authors were married to each other.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Above, I mentioned the name Lyapunov. If you look at the Russian
spelling Ляпуно́в, it is obvious that the name has three syllables.
Almost all of the English speakers I have met who know the name
pronounce it with four syllables. It is as if English speakers are
unable to pronounce the [lj] combination.

We all know what gets done to "Myanmar." [lj] doesn't in fact occur
word-initially in English, but [mj] does, so it shouldn't be a problem.

[RH Draney]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Above, I mentioned the name Lyapunov. If you look at the Russian
spelling Ляпуно́в, it is obvious that the name has three syllables.
Almost all of the English speakers I have met who know the name
pronounce it with four syllables. It is as if English speakers are
unable to pronounce the [lj] combination.

We all know what gets done to "Myanmar." [lj] doesn't in fact occur
word-initially in English, but [mj] does, so it shouldn't be a problem.

But then someone throws us a tongue-twister like "Ljubljana", and we
throw up our hands and say the hell with it....r

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by RH Draney

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Above, I mentioned the name Lyapunov. If you look at the Russian
spelling Ляпуно́в, it is obvious that the name has three syllables.
Almost all of the English speakers I have met who know the name
pronounce it with four syllables. It is as if English speakers are
unable to pronounce the [lj] combination.

We all know what gets done to "Myanmar." [lj] doesn't in fact occur
word-initially in English, but [mj] does, so it shouldn't be a problem.

But then someone throws us a tongue-twister like "Ljubljana", and we
throw up our hands and say the hell with it....r

We need the First Lady's help with that one.

However, anyone who has ever wanted to say "I love you" to a Russian
needs to get that right: Я люблю вас (Ya lyublyu vas). Maybe Mrs Trump
has trained hubby to say this correctly before his chats with Mr Putin.

[Ross]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I once inserted a pronunciation footnote into a nomenclature document
I was preparing for the International Union of Biochemistry, which
referred to Dalziel coefficients, introduced by Keith Dalziel. It
said that "Dalziel" was pronounced [dɪj'el], essentially the same as
the prefix D,L in D,L-lactic acid. The wikiparticle at
https://wiki2.org/en/Keith_Dalziel leaves readers in the dark about
this important question.
I probably have the same footnote in my book that refers to Dalziel,
but I can't check at the moment because the book is in Marseilles and
I'm in Paris, on a cold rainy day.

I often hear radio ads for a company called DL's Home Improvements. The
initials apparently stand for David Laughton, but whenever I hear the ad
I hear it as Dalziel's Home Improvements.
Over the years I've had to tell students about many names they'd been
mispronouncing. Some that now spring to mind are Wirth, Knuth, Dijkstra,
Kirchhoff, Lyapunov ... and there are surely many more that have now
slipped my mind.

Ampère?
any German speakers in the class (there usually aren't), I'll give the
German a shot.
Likewise I may give "Huygens" a shot before telling the students that I

That anglicizes quite comfortably as "Huggins", at least according to
the one person of that surname I've known (a native New Zealander who
spoke only Dutch until she went to school).

[RH Draney]

Post by Ross

Post by Jerry Friedman
any German speakers in the class (there usually aren't), I'll give the
German a shot.

/'kIrxOf/

Post by Ross

Post by Jerry Friedman
Likewise I may give "Huygens" a shot before telling the students that I

That anglicizes quite comfortably as "Huggins", at least according to
the one person of that surname I've known (a native New Zealander who
spoke only Dutch until she went to school).

/'(h)***@nz/

How do you choose to pronounce "Nguyen"?...r

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Ross

Post by Jerry Friedman
any German speakers in the class (there usually aren't), I'll give the
German a shot.

  /'kIrxOf/

With a distinctly different realization of /r/ and /O/ from mine, though
Quinn said there are Germans who pronounce /r/ as in English.

Post by Ross

Post by Jerry Friedman
Likewise I may give "Huygens" a shot before telling the students that I

That anglicizes quite comfortably as "Huggins", at least according to
the one person of that surname I've known (a native New Zealander who
spoke only Dutch until she went to school).

Oh, no, I'm using the right mispronunciation, and yours are totally wrong.

How do you choose to pronounce "Nguyen"?...r

So far I haven't had to.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Peter Moylan
Over the years I've had to tell students about many names they'd
been mispronouncing. Some that now spring to mind are Wirth,
Knuth, Dijkstra, Kirchhoff, Lyapunov ... and there are surely many
more that have now slipped my mind.

Just yesterday I did my best and "de Broglie" and then told my students

Above, I mentioned the name Lyapunov. If you look at the Russian
spelling Ляпуно́в, it is obvious that the name has three syllables.
Almost all of the English speakers I have met who know the name
pronounce it with four syllables. It is as if English speakers are
unable to pronounce the [lj] combination.

I don't think it exists at the beginning of a word in English, and if
you don't know anything about Russian, nothing suggests any difference
from "Ryan", "Nyack", etc.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Peter Moylan
Over the years I've had to tell students about many names they'd been
mispronouncing. Some that now spring to mind are Wirth, Knuth, Dijkstra,
Kirchhoff, Lyapunov ... and there are surely many more that have now
slipped my mind.

I think I can correctly pronounce most of those, but I'm not sure about
"Wirth." Can you post the correct pronunciation? While you're at it,
please post the pronunciation of all of them.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Peter Moylan
Over the years I've had to tell students about many names they'd been
mispronouncing. Some that now spring to mind are Wirth, Knuth, Dijkstra,
Kirchhoff, Lyapunov ... and there are surely many more that have now
slipped my mind.

I think I can correctly pronounce most of those, but I'm not sure about
"Wirth." Can you post the correct pronunciation? While you're at it,
please post the pronunciation of all of them.

[viRt]
[knut]
[daIkstRa]
[kiRxA.f]
[ljApynA.f]

That's the way I say them. I don't claim to be right. All of the above
have first-syllable stress.

The R in Wirth is a German R, pronounced in the back of the throat. Now
that I think of it, that same R appears in Dijkstra and Kirchhoff.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Peter Moylan
Over the years I've had to tell students about many names they'd been
mispronouncing. Some that now spring to mind are Wirth, Knuth, Dijkstra,
Kirchhoff, Lyapunov ... and there are surely many more that have now
slipped my mind.

I think I can correctly pronounce most of those, but I'm not sure about
"Wirth." Can you post the correct pronunciation? While you're at it,
please post the pronunciation of all of them.

[viRt]
[knut]
[daIkstRa]
[kiRxA.f]
[ljApynA.f]
That's the way I say them. I don't claim to be right. All of the above
have first-syllable stress.
The R in Wirth is a German R, pronounced in the back of the throat. Now
that I think of it, that same R appears in Dijkstra and Kirchhoff.

Thanks. If I've correctly understood the way you've written them, I
think I had them all right.

[Quinn C]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Peter Moylan
Over the years I've had to tell students about many names they'd been
mispronouncing. Some that now spring to mind are Wirth, Knuth, Dijkstra,
Kirchhoff, Lyapunov ... and there are surely many more that have now
slipped my mind.

I think I can correctly pronounce most of those, but I'm not sure about
"Wirth." Can you post the correct pronunciation? While you're at it,
please post the pronunciation of all of them.

[viRt]
[knut]

That would be the German pronunciation of that name. Assuming we're
talking about Donald Knuth, the computer scientist, I said his name
like [***@nu:T] in my head, and Wikipedia concurs.

[Quinn C]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Peter Moylan
Over the years I've had to tell students about many names they'd been
mispronouncing. Some that now spring to mind are Wirth, Knuth, Dijkstra,
Kirchhoff, Lyapunov ... and there are surely many more that have now
slipped my mind.

I think I can correctly pronounce most of those, but I'm not sure about
"Wirth." Can you post the correct pronunciation? While you're at it,
please post the pronunciation of all of them.

[viRt]
[knut]

That would be the German pronunciation of that name. Assuming we're
talking about Donald Knuth, the computer scientist, I said his name

Also, [R] is not Kirshenbaum notation. Kirshenbaum uses R for
right-hook schwa aka schwar, the sound of the <er> in "dinner".

[Quinn C]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Peter Moylan
Over the years I've had to tell students about many names they'd been
mispronouncing. Some that now spring to mind are Wirth, Knuth, Dijkstra,
Kirchhoff, Lyapunov ... and there are surely many more that have now
slipped my mind.

I think I can correctly pronounce most of those, but I'm not sure about
"Wirth." Can you post the correct pronunciation? While you're at it,
please post the pronunciation of all of them.

The German ones:

/vIrt/
/'kIrC.hOf/

The /r/ is typically - or most standardly - pronounced as [g"], but
there are many regional variants, even one that sounds like the
American one.

[Mark Brader]

Post by Ken Blake
I think I can correctly pronounce most of those, but I'm not sure about
"Wirth."

I don't know whether he actually said it or if it's a joke about him,
but the classic line is: "You can call me either by name, 'Veert', or
by value, 'Worth'."

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Ken Blake
I think I can correctly pronounce most of those, but I'm not sure
about "Wirth."

I don't know whether he actually said it or if it's a joke about
him, but the classic line is: "You can call me either by name,
'Veert', or by value, 'Worth'."

I heard him say something like that at a conference. I think the actual
statement was that Europeans call him by name, and Americans call him by
value.

[Madhu]

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Quinn C
Sure, but especially for us non-natives, it's the kind of word that
you may have mispronounced in your head for 20 years before you heard
it out loud.

Oh yes, indeed -- and true for us too, though less (or fewer) for
obvious reasons. We don't notice if after twenty years it turns out
we'd got it right by accident after all, but I wouldn't be very
surprised if I still, after a lot more than twenty years, happened
across a word I'd never chanced to hear pronounced and had got wrong
all this time.
The worst for me was doing an Open University science course, which
was mainly by correspondence: this was in the very early days of the
OU, when it hadn't occurred to the scientists writing the courses that
including a pronunciation guide might be a good idea.

There are a significant number of words I've only seen in print.

But we had a related problem in India in the sciences especially
chemistry where the mispronunciations are perpetrated from the instructor
to students and it becomes the "right way" -- until exposed to an
outsider's pronunciation

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Madhu

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by Quinn C
Sure, but especially for us non-natives, it's the kind of word that
you may have mispronounced in your head for 20 years before you heard
it out loud.

Oh yes, indeed -- and true for us too, though less (or fewer) for
obvious reasons. We don't notice if after twenty years it turns out
we'd got it right by accident after all, but I wouldn't be very
surprised if I still, after a lot more than twenty years, happened
across a word I'd never chanced to hear pronounced and had got wrong
all this time.
The worst for me was doing an Open University science course, which
was mainly by correspondence: this was in the very early days of the
OU, when it hadn't occurred to the scientists writing the courses that
including a pronunciation guide might be a good idea.

There are a significant number of words I've only seen in print.
But we had a related problem in India in the sciences especially
chemistry where the mispronunciations are perpetrated from the instructor
to students and it becomes the "right way" -- until exposed to an
outsider's pronunciation

The first time I was in Chile I met a young woman whose English was
virtually perfect when talking about everyday things (not surprising,
because although she was Chilean her name was Heather Macdonald or
something like that and she spoke English at home), but she pronounced
chemical names in odd ways, like "ascetic" [əs'etɪk] for "acetic".

[HVS]

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 15:41:14 +0000, Katy Jennison
<***@spamtrap.kjennison.com> wrote:

-snip -

Post by Katy Jennison
Oh yes, indeed -- and true for us too, though less (or fewer) for
obvious reasons. We don't notice if after twenty years it turns out
we'd got it right by accident after all, but I wouldn't be very
surprised if I still, after a lot more than twenty years, happened
across a word I'd never chanced to hear pronounced and had got

wrong all

Post by Katy Jennison
this time.
The worst for me was doing an Open University science course, which was
mainly by correspondence: this was in the very early days of the OU,
when it hadn't occurred to the scientists writing the courses that
including a pronunciation guide might be a good idea.

I'd been studying and working in the field of architectural history
for a few years before I had the need to confirm the pronunciations
of "clerestory" and "reredos". (Fortunately, I'd guessed correctly.)

Cheers, Harvey

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by HVS
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 15:41:14 +0000, Katy Jennison
-snip -

Post by Katy Jennison
Oh yes, indeed -- and true for us too, though less (or fewer) for
obvious reasons. We don't notice if after twenty years it turns

out

Post by Katy Jennison
we'd got it right by accident after all, but I wouldn't be very
surprised if I still, after a lot more than twenty years, happened
across a word I'd never chanced to hear pronounced and had got

wrong all

Post by Katy Jennison
this time.
The worst for me was doing an Open University science course, which

was

Post by Katy Jennison
mainly by correspondence: this was in the very early days of the

OU,

Post by Katy Jennison
when it hadn't occurred to the scientists writing the courses that
including a pronunciation guide might be a good idea.

I'd been studying and working in the field of architectural history
for a few years before I had the need to confirm the pronunciations
of "clerestory" and "reredos". (Fortunately, I'd guessed correctly.)

I've heard and used those words for years, but don't recall ever seeing
them written down before this moment. I'm pretty sure about that since I
was surprised at the spelling for both of them, having internalizes them
as "clearstory" and "reados".

Which in fact is what those elements mean (assuming you meant
"reardos").

Down here a lot of people think "reredos" is a borrowing from
Spanish and pronounce it in Spanish, more or less.

[CDB]

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by CDB

Post by Quinn C
[I'm convinced I posted this already, but I don't see it. Sorry
if duplicated.]
This might have been the first time I heard "elegiac" pronounced,
and I was quite surprised at the stress on the second-to-last
syllable.
Is there any other word in which the suffix, I repeat, suffix
-iac has stress and the letter i becomes /aI/ instead of the
regular /i/ or /I/ of all the others that I have heard spoken
before - maniac, brainiac, cardiac, celiac, zodiac, insomniac,
-philiac, aphrodisiac ...
Without an additional syllable as in maniacal, that is.
Sure, it can be analyzed as elegy+ac instead of having -iac. But
that doesn't have that phonetic effect in celeriac, either. Or
iliac.
I'm also surprised at how frequent the word apparently is: more
so than celiac or insomniac (according to onelook.com, confirmed
at Google Ngrams.)

FWIW, "elegiac" was borrowed by the Romans from Greek "elegeiakos";
The digraph "ei" would have made a long "i" in Latin "elegiacus"
and gotten the accent. None of the other example words can be
traced back to a classical original, except "iliac", from the Latin
word "ilia", flank;

Just a minor quibble, but "ilia" is (neuter) plural and means
"flanks". Oddly enough, M-W has an entry for "ilium" as singular in
English, but "ilia" doesn't seem to have a singular form in Latin.
(Which is confirmed by my Félix Gaffiot dictionary.)

Yes, perhaps "flanks", as you say. I believe the singular form was a
medieval regularisation.

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by CDB
and the second "i" there is short.
None of this is entially logiacal.

[Quinn C]

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by CDB

Post by Quinn C
[I'm convinced I posted this already, but I don't see it. Sorry if
duplicated.]
This might have been the first time I heard "elegiac" pronounced, and
I was quite surprised at the stress on the second-to-last syllable.
Is there any other word in which the suffix, I repeat, suffix -iac
has stress and the letter i becomes /aI/ instead of the regular /i/
or /I/ of all the others that I have heard spoken before - maniac,
brainiac, cardiac, celiac, zodiac, insomniac, -philiac, aphrodisiac
...
Without an additional syllable as in maniacal, that is.
Sure, it can be analyzed as elegy+ac instead of having -iac. But
that doesn't have that phonetic effect in celeriac, either. Or
iliac.
I'm also surprised at how frequent the word apparently is: more so
than celiac or insomniac (according to onelook.com, confirmed at
Google Ngrams.)

FWIW, "elegiac" was borrowed by the Romans from Greek "elegeiakos"; The
digraph "ei" would have made a long "i" in Latin "elegiacus" and gotten
the accent. None of the other example words can be traced back to a
classical original, except "iliac", from the Latin word "ilia", flank;

Just a minor quibble, but "ilia" is (neuter) plural and means "flanks".
Oddly enough, M-W has an entry for "ilium" as singular in English, but
"ilia" doesn't seem to have a singular form in Latin. (Which is confirmed
by my Félix Gaffiot dictionary.)

I think that could just mean that the singular was rare and no text
containing it happened to survive.

[Quinn C]

Post by CDB

Post by Quinn C
[I'm convinced I posted this already, but I don't see it. Sorry if
duplicated.]
This might have been the first time I heard "elegiac" pronounced, and
I was quite surprised at the stress on the second-to-last syllable.
Is there any other word in which the suffix, I repeat, suffix -iac
has stress and the letter i becomes /aI/ instead of the regular /i/
or /I/ of all the others that I have heard spoken before - maniac,
brainiac, cardiac, celiac, zodiac, insomniac, -philiac, aphrodisiac
...
Without an additional syllable as in maniacal, that is.
Sure, it can be analyzed as elegy+ac instead of having -iac. But
that doesn't have that phonetic effect in celeriac, either. Or
iliac.
I'm also surprised at how frequent the word apparently is: more so
than celiac or insomniac (according to onelook.com, confirmed at
Google Ngrams.)

FWIW, "elegiac" was borrowed by the Romans from Greek "elegeiakos"; The
digraph "ei" would have made a long "i" in Latin "elegiacus" and gotten
the accent. None of the other example words can be traced back to a
classical original, except "iliac", from the Latin word "ilia", flank;
and the second "i" there is short.
None of this is entially logiacal.

But at least that's an explanation. It would put it in the same
category as cer-vie-acal.

[CDB]

Post by Quinn C

Post by CDB

Post by Quinn C
[I'm convinced I posted this already, but I don't see it. Sorry
if duplicated.]
This might have been the first time I heard "elegiac" pronounced,
and I was quite surprised at the stress on the second-to-last
syllable.
Is there any other word in which the suffix, I repeat, suffix
-iac has stress and the letter i becomes /aI/ instead of the
regular /i/ or /I/ of all the others that I have heard spoken
before - maniac, brainiac, cardiac, celiac, zodiac, insomniac,
-philiac, aphrodisiac ...
Without an additional syllable as in maniacal, that is.
Sure, it can be analyzed as elegy+ac instead of having -iac. But
that doesn't have that phonetic effect in celeriac, either. Or
iliac.
I'm also surprised at how frequent the word apparently is: more
so than celiac or insomniac (according to onelook.com, confirmed
at Google Ngrams.)

FWIW, "elegiac" was borrowed by the Romans from Greek "elegeiakos";
The digraph "ei" would have made a long "i" in Latin "elegiacus"
and gotten the accent. None of the other example words can be
traced back to a classical original, except "iliac", from the Latin
word "ilia", flank; and the second "i" there is short.
None of this is entially logiacal.

But at least that's an explanation. It would put it in the same
category as cer-vie-acal.

True, although its origin is Latin. The oblique cases have a long "i".

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Quinn C
[I'm convinced I posted this already, but I don't see it. Sorry if
duplicated.]
This might have been the first time I heard "elegiac" pronounced, and I
was quite surprised at the stress on the second-to-last syllable.

...

I had no idea. I see /'I'lidZi&k/ is the second pronunciation in AHD,
and I may stick with that.

However,

A writer chose settings by rhyme.
If a waltz, then New Paltz would be prime.
The parts elegiac
Would happen in Nyack;
The scene of the crime was East Lyme.

(Alternately, "If someone was hatless,/ They were in Skaneateles.")

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Quinn C
[I'm convinced I posted this already, but I don't see it. Sorry if
duplicated.]
This might have been the first time I heard "elegiac" pronounced, and I
was quite surprised at the stress on the second-to-last syllable.

I had no idea. I see /'I'lidZi&k/ is the second pronunciation in AHD,
and I may stick with that.
However,
A writer chose settings by rhyme.
If a waltz, then New Paltz would be prime.
The parts elegiac
Would happen in Nyack;
The scene of the crime was East Lyme.
(Alternately, "If someone was hatless,/ They were in Skaneateles.")
--
Jerry Friedman is working on "Mahopac".

Careful ... the spelling is deceptive.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Quinn C
[I'm convinced I posted this already, but I don't see it. Sorry if
duplicated.]
This might have been the first time I heard "elegiac" pronounced, and I
was quite surprised at the stress on the second-to-last syllable.

I had no idea. I see /'I'lidZi&k/ is the second pronunciation in AHD,
and I may stick with that.
However,
A writer chose settings by rhyme.
If a waltz, then New Paltz would be prime.
The parts elegiac
Would happen in Nyack;
The scene of the crime was East Lyme.
(Alternately, "If someone was hatless,/ They were in Skaneateles.")
--
Jerry Friedman is working on "Mahopac".

Careful ... the spelling is deceptive.

I had distant relatives there.

Should a singer of "Day-O" pack
Pistols in Mahopac,
The scene of the crime would be Lyme.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Friedman
A writer chose settings by rhyme.
If a waltz, then New Paltz would be prime.
The parts elegiac
Would happen in Nyack;
The scene of the crime was East Lyme.
(Alternately, "If someone was hatless,/ They were in Skaneateles.")
--
Jerry Friedman is working on "Mahopac".

Careful ... the spelling is deceptive.

I had distant relatives there.
Should a singer of "Day-O" pack
Pistols in Mahopac,
The scene of the crime would be Lyme.

Oo! Oo! Now do "Secaucus" (NJ) and "Kissena" Boulevard, Queens, NY.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Friedman
A writer chose settings by rhyme.
If a waltz, then New Paltz would be prime.
The parts elegiac
Would happen in Nyack;
The scene of the crime was East Lyme.
(Alternately, "If someone was hatless,/ They were in Skaneateles.")
--
Jerry Friedman is working on "Mahopac".

Careful ... the spelling is deceptive.

I had distant relatives there.
Should a singer of "Day-O" pack
Pistols in Mahopac,
The scene of the crime would be Lyme.

Oo! Oo! Now do "Secaucus" (NJ) and "Kissena" Boulevard, Queens, NY.

"Seacaucus" is too easy--rhymes with "raucous". "Kissena" seems to
rhyme with "ballerina".

While looking that up, I found that

The scene in the deli
Takes place on Fteley.

Sic.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Friedman
A writer chose settings by rhyme.
If a waltz, then New Paltz would be prime.
The parts elegiac
Would happen in Nyack;
The scene of the crime was East Lyme.
(Alternately, "If someone was hatless,/ They were in Skaneateles.")
--
Jerry Friedman is working on "Mahopac".

Careful ... the spelling is deceptive.

I had distant relatives there.
Should a singer of "Day-O" pack
Pistols in Mahopac,
The scene of the crime would be Lyme.

Oo! Oo! Now do "Secaucus" (NJ) and "Kissena" Boulevard, Queens, NY.

"Seacaucus" is too easy--rhymes with "raucous". "Kissena" seems to
rhyme with "ballerina".

Your misspelling suggests you do know how to pronounce "Secaucus," but
a rhyme has to agree from the last stressed syllable to the end of the line.

Post by Jerry Friedman
While looking that up, I found that
The scene in the deli
Takes place on Fteley.
Sic.

"About New York - The New York Times
https://www.nytimes.com › 1975/10/15 › archives › about-new-york-the-restoration-of-...
Oct 15, 1975 - Two Bronxites nominated Ftely Avenue for strangestreet‐name mention and one suggested that it may originally have been Ft. Ely, with the dot ..."

But the first hit is a Google Map. Ftely goes for at least several blocks
just east of the Bronx River Parkway in the Soundview neighborhood (which
abuts Long Island Sound, sort of).

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Friedman
A writer chose settings by rhyme.
If a waltz, then New Paltz would be prime.
The parts elegiac
Would happen in Nyack;
The scene of the crime was East Lyme.
(Alternately, "If someone was hatless,/ They were in Skaneateles.")
--
Jerry Friedman is working on "Mahopac".

Careful ... the spelling is deceptive.

I had distant relatives there.
Should a singer of "Day-O" pack
Pistols in Mahopac,
The scene of the crime would be Lyme.

Oo! Oo! Now do "Secaucus" (NJ) and "Kissena" Boulevard, Queens, NY.

"Seacaucus" is too easy--rhymes with "raucous". "Kissena" seems to
rhyme with "ballerina".

Your misspelling suggests you do know how to pronounce "Secaucus," but
a rhyme has to agree from the last stressed syllable to the end of the line.

...

Huh. All this time I'd heard it stressed on the second syllable--but
I'm not sure I'd ever heard it from someone from New Jersey.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Friedman
"Seacaucus" is too easy--rhymes with "raucous". "Kissena" seems to
rhyme with "ballerina".

Your misspelling suggests you do know how to pronounce "Secaucus," but
a rhyme has to agree from the last stressed syllable to the end of the line.

Huh. All this time I'd heard it stressed on the second syllable--but
I'm not sure I'd ever heard it from someone from New Jersey.

Indeed -- that's the catch! It's like "Chicawgo": the locals like to
keep it a Shibboleth.

(I got tired of traffic reporters saying KISS-uh-nuh.)

[Tak To]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Friedman
A writer chose settings by rhyme.
If a waltz, then New Paltz would be prime.
The parts elegiac
Would happen in Nyack;
The scene of the crime was East Lyme.
(Alternately, "If someone was hatless,/ They were in Skaneateles.")
--
Jerry Friedman is working on "Mahopac".

Careful ... the spelling is deceptive.

I had distant relatives there.
Should a singer of "Day-O" pack
Pistols in Mahopac,
The scene of the crime would be Lyme.

Oo! Oo! Now do "Secaucus" (NJ) and "Kissena" Boulevard, Queens, NY.

"Seacaucus" is too easy--rhymes with "raucous". "Kissena" seems to
rhyme with "ballerina".

Your misspelling suggests you do know how to pronounce "Secaucus," but
a rhyme has to agree from the last stressed syllable to the end of the line.

...
Huh. All this time I'd heard it stressed on the second syllable--but
I'm not sure I'd ever heard it from someone from New Jersey.

I would like to think that the local pronunciation of
"Secaucus" was made known to a wider audience by the film
/The Return of the Secaucus Seven/ (1979) by John Sayles.

For some reason there is a pronunciation of "Secaucus" in
Swedish(!) on Forvo. It is beyond my imagination.
https://forvo.com/word/secaucus/#sv

[RH Draney]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman is working on "Mahopac".

Careful ... the spelling is deceptive.

Not to worry...I've seen "The Groove Tube", where the Mahopac is used as
an example of a stream that was polluted until the Uranus Corporation
("You can put your trust in Uranus!") spent millions to come up with a
TV commercial showing that it was polluted:

....r

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Quinn C
[I'm convinced I posted this already, but I don't see it. Sorry if
duplicated.]
This might have been the first time I heard "elegiac" pronounced,
and I was quite surprised at the stress on the second-to-last
syllable.

...
I had no idea. I see /'I'lidZi&k/ is the second pronunciation in
AHD, and I may stick with that.

My immediate reaction on encountering this thread was to think that
Quinn had misspelt "elegaic". Despite all the evidence, I still have
trouble thinking that "elegiac" is a real word.

[Quinn C]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Quinn C
[I'm convinced I posted this already, but I don't see it. Sorry if
duplicated.]
This might have been the first time I heard "elegiac" pronounced, and I
was quite surprised at the stress on the second-to-last syllable.

...
I had no idea. I see /'I'lidZi&k/ is the second pronunciation in AHD,
and I may stick with that.
However,
A writer chose settings by rhyme.
If a waltz, then New Paltz would be prime.
The parts elegiac
Would happen in Nyack;
The scene of the crime was East Lyme.
(Alternately, "If someone was hatless,/ They were in Skaneateles.")

A famous little German poem makes a similar claim about a weasel.