What happened to Survival Magazine?

[n***@nowhere.com]

I haven't seen Survival Magazine for several years
and assume it's defunct.

Anyone know the circumstances of it's demise?
It was a really great and interesting resource.

Larry

[Tim May]

Post by n***@nowhere.com
I haven't seen Survival Magazine for several years
and assume it's defunct.
Anyone know the circumstances of it's demise?
It was a really great and interesting resource.

I assume you mean "American Survival Guide Magazine."

First, I urge you to spend a little bit of time learning about Google,
probably the most important survival tool anyone here will ever
encounter. If you don't know about, go to www.google.com and spend some
time learning how to do simple searches. And Google Groups has a store
of Usenet/Netnews articles going back to the early 1980s, i.e.,
essentially a complete copy of all of Usenet.

Second, a search on "American Survival Guide Magazine" will turn up
many hits discussing the renaming of ASG and then its demise. One such
article is from our own Len McDougall:

<http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe
=off&threadm=jgmdruo6unpbt26k1sab8ghdg0lh4see81%404ax.com&rnum=23&prev=/
groups%3Fq%3D%2522american%2Bsurvival%2Bguide%2522%26start%3D20%26hl%3De
n%26lr%3Dlang_en%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26scoring%3Dd%26
selm%3Djgmdruo6unpbt26k1sab8ghdg0lh4see81%25404ax.com%26rnum%3D23>

(The lengthy URL is because I have pasted-in the results of a search in
Google Groups. Directly searching is usually better. And there are
utilities to compress or shorten URLs.)

A few of his paragraphs are copied below:

From: Len McDougall, Outdoor Writer (***@yahoo.com)
Subject: What happened to American Survival Guide
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Date: 2002-10-22 23:50:05 PST
As some of you may remember, I was a regular contributor to American
Survival Guide magazine for 17 years, until it folded. I was in
contact with editor Jim Benson and assistant editor Scott Stoddard
right up til they were let go, largely because I had a half dozen
feature pieces waiting for publication with them.
What happened is that publisher Jim McMullen sold controlling
interest to a Korean publishing house in 93. The conglomerate was
called McMullen & Yee. The Yee family bought out McMullen completely
in 96, and the company became Yee Publications, or YP. The Yee's
don't like guns, and they pressured Benson to stop printing pieces
about firearms - that affected me personally, and I didn't like it any
more than Benson did. The Yees basically told ASG's readership to go
screw themselves, and they refused to give magazine buyers what they
wanted because of personal beliefs. As any intelligent person could
have predicted, ASG's subscription renewals fell off dramatically, and
advertisers started pulling out, too. In desperation, the Yees
changed the name of the magazine to Self Reliance Journal in 2000,
attempting to get back subscribers with whitewash, but still refusing
to give survival readers what they wanted. Readers weren't fooled;
SRJ folded for good in April 2001.

[Winston §mith]

Post by Tim May

Post by n***@nowhere.com
I haven't seen Survival Magazine for several years
and assume it's defunct.
Anyone know the circumstances of it's demise?
It was a really great and interesting resource.

I assume you mean "American Survival Guide Magazine."

SNIP

I do have one lone copy of "Survive" magazine that I picked up in a used
book store. It's dated 11/84. The publisher is Omega Group Limited.
Heavily biased to guns articles. I have to wonder if it's the grand daddy
of ASG.

--
W§ in m.s - http://members.1stconnect.com/anozira

[The Orchardist]

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:29:48 -0700, Winston §mith

Post by Winston §mith
I do have one lone copy of "Survive" magazine that I picked up in a used
book store. It's dated 11/84. The publisher is Omega Group Limited.
Heavily biased to guns articles. I have to wonder if it's the grand daddy
of ASG.

Survive was published by the same people that put out Soldier of
Fortune Magazine.

It had a run of a few years, but went out of business in the late
80's.

It is in NO way related to American Survival Guide.

[Noah Simoneaux]

Post by The Orchardist
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 20:29:48 -0700, Winston §mith

Post by Winston §mith
I do have one lone copy of "Survive" magazine that I picked up in a used
book store. It's dated 11/84. The publisher is Omega Group Limited.
Heavily biased to guns articles. I have to wonder if it's the grand daddy
of ASG.

Survive was published by the same people that put out Soldier of
Fortune Magazine.
It had a run of a few years, but went out of business in the late
80's.
It is in NO way related to American Survival Guide.

For a short while there were actually 3 survival magazines being published at
the same time. American Survival Guide, Survive, and Personal Survival. There
was a funny incident when one guy submitted two VERY similar pictures to ASG and
Survive and they used them the same month. They were both embarrassed by the
little "mistake".
Survivalism has gotten more or less popular at different times through the
years. Right now it seems to be getting a little more fashionable with some, but
that's always subject to change.


It is easier to fight for our principles than to live up to them.-Alfred Adler

[n***@nowhere.com]

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:36:00 -0800, Tim May

Post by Tim May

Post by n***@nowhere.com
I haven't seen Survival Magazine for several years
and assume it's defunct.
Anyone know the circumstances of it's demise?
It was a really great and interesting resource.

I assume you mean "American Survival Guide Magazine."
First, I urge you to spend a little bit of time learning about Google,
probably the most important survival tool anyone here will ever
encounter. If you don't know about, go to www.google.com and spend some
time learning how to do simple searches. And Google Groups has a store
of Usenet/Netnews articles going back to the early 1980s, i.e.,
essentially a complete copy of all of Usenet.
Second, a search on "American Survival Guide Magazine" will turn up
many hits discussing the renaming of ASG and then its demise. One such

I use Google quite a bit but didn't think of it since the survival
newsgroups would know the full story. But you are right, I should
have Googled. Thanks for your information.

Larry

[Tim May]

Post by n***@nowhere.com
I use Google quite a bit but didn't think of it since the survival
newsgroups would know the full story. But you are right, I should
have Googled. Thanks for your information.

Yes, someone in the survival groups would know. Which is precisely why
my first thought before asking the _current_ readership is "Is it
likely this came up in the past and I can search for it?"

I usually find straightforward answers by using Google, as I can read a
few dozen posts a lot faster than what I get from composing a post,
posting it, and then waiting hours or days for current replies to
dribble in.

I'm glad you are happy with the results.

--Tim May

[jose]

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 11:36:00 -0800, Tim May

Post by Tim May
I assume you mean "American Survival Guide Magazine."

There was a magazine that appeared on the news stands back around
'95-'96-'97, somewhere in there. I think it was simply titled
"Survival" It was published by some outfit in Boulder, I think. I
had a subscription to it for a while. I renewed my subscription about
the time it folded, losing a trivial amount of money.

I liked it because it did NOT equate big, scary-looking, guns and
knives with survival. I don't think I ever saw a copy that had a
firearm on the cover. Don't misunderstand, I love guns and knives. I
simply enjoyed the no-bullshit, common sense attitude that generally
prevailed in this magazine.

Too bad it's no longer around. I found the articles vastly more
realistic and informative than what was generally appearing in
"American Survival Guide" along then..

I wish I had kept the copies I had, but I moved several times back
then and got tired of moving so much paper.

Peace, Y'all,
Jose

[A.T. Hagan]

Post by jose
There was a magazine that appeared on the news stands back around
'95-'96-'97, somewhere in there. I think it was simply titled
"Survival" It was published by some outfit in Boulder, I think. I
had a subscription to it for a while. I renewed my subscription about
the time it folded, losing a trivial amount of money.
I liked it because it did NOT equate big, scary-looking, guns and
knives with survival. I don't think I ever saw a copy that had a
firearm on the cover. Don't misunderstand, I love guns and knives. I
simply enjoyed the no-bullshit, common sense attitude that generally
prevailed in this magazine.
Too bad it's no longer around. I found the articles vastly more
realistic and informative than what was generally appearing in
"American Survival Guide" along then..
I wish I had kept the copies I had, but I moved several times back
then and got tired of moving so much paper.

I wonder if you mean "Practical Survival?" Sounds a lot like the sort
of thing you're describing here? It was in the 1992-93 time frame
though. Without going through the magazines again to check for names
I seem to recall it was published by at least some of the same folks
who published the original "Survive" magazine (Robert Knight, et. al.)
since some of the old Survive articles were recycled through the new
publication

In my opinion it was the best survivalist orient magazine ever
published in the U.S. but it lasted just over a year then went under.
Too bad, it was good, but survivalists in general are squirrelly about
names on mailing lists and it's the subscriber base that sells the
magazine to advertisers. You can't get a large enough paid
subscription base you can't sell enough good advertising to stay
afloat so I think any survivalist oriented magazine is going to have
problems in that regard. American Survival Guide eked along for years
because they didn't really have a lot of article expense overhead and
they printed a lot of the kind of stuff that appeals to the dreamers.
I'd buy a copy about every six months just to keep the advertisers
addresses fresh, but they hadn't really interested me since the middle
eighties.

If there was a magazine titled simply "Survival" it didn't manage to
make it to Gainesville, FL because I cruise the magazine racks at the
big book stores looking for this stuff and it's been a long, long time
since anything new has come down the pike.

Backwoods Home is the nearest thing to a survivalist magazine now and
if they can keep from looking too much like American Survival Guide
they may be able to last. Hope so, because I'm working on some
articles I want to sell them.

.....Alan.

[jose]

On 29 Nov 2003 12:18:11 -0800, ***@atlantic.net (A.T. Hagan)
wrote:

That was it! Thanks for jogging my memory. When you get old the
years sort of blur together.

It was a great magazine.

- Jose

Post by A.T. Hagan
I wonder if you mean "Practical Survival?" Sounds a lot like the sort
of thing you're describing here? It was in the 1992-93 time frame
though. Without going through the magazines again to check for names
I seem to recall it was published by at least some of the same folks
who published the original "Survive" magazine (Robert Knight, et. al.)
since some of the old Survive articles were recycled through the new
publication

[Heather James]

Backwoods Home bought American Survival Guide's mailing list and such, when
ASG went toes-up. They filled out the ASG subscribers' subscription times
with properly timed current issues of Backwoods Home, and then offered ASG
folks some kind of special to subscribe to BHM (I didn't pay a lot of
attention. I had never heard of ASG before this happened, and am a diehard
BHM reader) BHM has been around for about 10 years, and aims to be (& does
pretty well at being) what Mother Earth News was 20 years ago, with
conservative/libertarian type politics.

Post by A.T. Hagan

Post by jose
There was a magazine that appeared on the news stands back around
'95-'96-'97, somewhere in there. I think it was simply titled
"Survival" It was published by some outfit in Boulder, I think. I
had a subscription to it for a while. I renewed my subscription about
the time it folded, losing a trivial amount of money.
I liked it because it did NOT equate big, scary-looking, guns and
knives with survival. I don't think I ever saw a copy that had a
firearm on the cover. Don't misunderstand, I love guns and knives. I
simply enjoyed the no-bullshit, common sense attitude that generally
prevailed in this magazine.
Too bad it's no longer around. I found the articles vastly more
realistic and informative than what was generally appearing in
"American Survival Guide" along then..
I wish I had kept the copies I had, but I moved several times back
then and got tired of moving so much paper.

I wonder if you mean "Practical Survival?" Sounds a lot like the sort
of thing you're describing here? It was in the 1992-93 time frame
though. Without going through the magazines again to check for names
I seem to recall it was published by at least some of the same folks
who published the original "Survive" magazine (Robert Knight, et. al.)
since some of the old Survive articles were recycled through the new
publication
In my opinion it was the best survivalist orient magazine ever
published in the U.S. but it lasted just over a year then went under.
Too bad, it was good, but survivalists in general are squirrelly about
names on mailing lists and it's the subscriber base that sells the
magazine to advertisers. You can't get a large enough paid
subscription base you can't sell enough good advertising to stay
afloat so I think any survivalist oriented magazine is going to have
problems in that regard. American Survival Guide eked along for years
because they didn't really have a lot of article expense overhead and
they printed a lot of the kind of stuff that appeals to the dreamers.
I'd buy a copy about every six months just to keep the advertisers
addresses fresh, but they hadn't really interested me since the middle
eighties.
If there was a magazine titled simply "Survival" it didn't manage to
make it to Gainesville, FL because I cruise the magazine racks at the
big book stores looking for this stuff and it's been a long, long time
since anything new has come down the pike.
Backwoods Home is the nearest thing to a survivalist magazine now and
if they can keep from looking too much like American Survival Guide
they may be able to last. Hope so, because I'm working on some
articles I want to sell them.
.....Alan.

[Tim May]

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

Post by Heather James
Backwoods Home bought American Survival Guide's mailing list and such, when
ASG went toes-up. They filled out the ASG subscribers' subscription times
with properly timed current issues of Backwoods Home, and then offered ASG
folks some kind of special to subscribe to BHM (I didn't pay a lot of
attention. I had never heard of ASG before this happened, and am a diehard
BHM reader) BHM has been around for about 10 years, and aims to be (& does
pretty well at being) what Mother Earth News was 20 years ago, with
conservative/libertarian type politics.

I saw a bunch of granolaheads and no gun articles.

Fuck that.

It deserved to die, as so many hundreds of millions of liberal statists
deserve to die.


--Tim May

[Lawrence Glickman]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 20:51:26 -0800, Tim May
<***@removethis.got.net> wrote:

|[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
| the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
|
|In article <***@corp.supernews.com>, Heather James
|<***@yhti.net> wrote:
|
|> Backwoods Home bought American Survival Guide's mailing list and such, when
|> ASG went toes-up. They filled out the ASG subscribers' subscription times
|> with properly timed current issues of Backwoods Home, and then offered ASG
|> folks some kind of special to subscribe to BHM (I didn't pay a lot of
|> attention. I had never heard of ASG before this happened, and am a diehard
|> BHM reader) BHM has been around for about 10 years, and aims to be (& does
|> pretty well at being) what Mother Earth News was 20 years ago, with
|> conservative/libertarian type politics.
|
|I saw a bunch of granolaheads and no gun articles.
|
|Fuck that.
|
|It deserved to die, as so many hundreds of millions of liberal statists
|deserve to die.
|
|
|--Tim May

This is going to be a big surprise for you so sit down first.

Comfey?

OK

WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE

You, me, everybody you see. Dead.
Enjoy whatever time you have left.


Lg

[A.T. Hagan]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 20:51:26 -0800, Tim May

Post by Tim May
[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

Post by Heather James
Backwoods Home bought American Survival Guide's mailing list and such, when
ASG went toes-up. They filled out the ASG subscribers' subscription times
with properly timed current issues of Backwoods Home, and then offered ASG
folks some kind of special to subscribe to BHM (I didn't pay a lot of
attention. I had never heard of ASG before this happened, and am a diehard
BHM reader) BHM has been around for about 10 years, and aims to be (& does
pretty well at being) what Mother Earth News was 20 years ago, with
conservative/libertarian type politics.

I saw a bunch of granolaheads and no gun articles.
Fuck that.
It deserved to die, as so many hundreds of millions of liberal statists
deserve to die.
--Tim May

Granola heads? Where? Certainly not in ASG and it certainly never
lacked for gun articles. Had too many as a matter of fact. Great for
the dreamers, but not enough content of real substance to interest
most of the rest of us.

Some granola heads do read Backwoods Home, but Dave Duffy certainly
does publish gun related articles and Massad Ayoob is a regular writer
there. Duffy is possibly unique in that he's actually putting out a
magazine with a broad survivalist appeal that sufficient people will
actually subscribe to so that he can sell the necessary advertising to
keep the place financially afloat.

Mother Earth News now was full of granola heads and ran only the very
rarest gun related article and did eventually go under, but only after
it had been around for going on twenty years which isn't bad for a
magazine. The homesteading movement had been steadily shrinking then
so they couldn't support the magazine anymore and TMEN couldn't
transition over to a wider market base. Things are somewhat better
now and more magazines are able to more or less stay afloat now, but
they'll probably never be again what they used to be in their glory
days.

Paper magazine publishing in general seems rather iffy for the
foreseeable future until whatever impact the Internet is going to have
on the field finally shakes itself out.

.....Alan.


--
Curiosity killed the cat -
lack of it is killing mankind.

[A.T. Hagan]

Most of us are probably at least peripherally aware of Backwoods Home
Magazine. I've been either buying or subscribing since the magazine
first arrived in Florida. Duffy wrote me back in '99 and asked me to
do an article for them which I did, but that was just at the time I
wore out and stopped most preparedness related writing so I never got
around to the follow up articles I'd planned.

Backwoods Home is a good magazine. Some of the political stuff I
don't agree with, some I do, some I can just leave lay, but for real
content BHM is hard to beat and that, I think, is what really sells
the magazine. ASG's margin was so thin they simply couldn't afford to
pay for much real content so they weren't able to live up to the
potential they'd exhibited in the late Seventies and early Eighties
when they were pretty good.

.....Alan.

Post by Heather James
Backwoods Home bought American Survival Guide's mailing list and such, when
ASG went toes-up. They filled out the ASG subscribers' subscription times
with properly timed current issues of Backwoods Home, and then offered ASG
folks some kind of special to subscribe to BHM (I didn't pay a lot of
attention. I had never heard of ASG before this happened, and am a diehard
BHM reader) BHM has been around for about 10 years, and aims to be (& does
pretty well at being) what Mother Earth News was 20 years ago, with
conservative/libertarian type politics.

Post by A.T. Hagan

Post by jose
There was a magazine that appeared on the news stands back around
'95-'96-'97, somewhere in there. I think it was simply titled
"Survival" It was published by some outfit in Boulder, I think. I
had a subscription to it for a while. I renewed my subscription about
the time it folded, losing a trivial amount of money.
I liked it because it did NOT equate big, scary-looking, guns and
knives with survival. I don't think I ever saw a copy that had a
firearm on the cover. Don't misunderstand, I love guns and knives. I
simply enjoyed the no-bullshit, common sense attitude that generally
prevailed in this magazine.
Too bad it's no longer around. I found the articles vastly more
realistic and informative than what was generally appearing in
"American Survival Guide" along then..
I wish I had kept the copies I had, but I moved several times back
then and got tired of moving so much paper.

I wonder if you mean "Practical Survival?" Sounds a lot like the sort
of thing you're describing here? It was in the 1992-93 time frame
though. Without going through the magazines again to check for names
I seem to recall it was published by at least some of the same folks
who published the original "Survive" magazine (Robert Knight, et. al.)
since some of the old Survive articles were recycled through the new
publication
In my opinion it was the best survivalist orient magazine ever
published in the U.S. but it lasted just over a year then went under.
Too bad, it was good, but survivalists in general are squirrelly about
names on mailing lists and it's the subscriber base that sells the
magazine to advertisers. You can't get a large enough paid
subscription base you can't sell enough good advertising to stay
afloat so I think any survivalist oriented magazine is going to have
problems in that regard. American Survival Guide eked along for years
because they didn't really have a lot of article expense overhead and
they printed a lot of the kind of stuff that appeals to the dreamers.
I'd buy a copy about every six months just to keep the advertisers
addresses fresh, but they hadn't really interested me since the middle
eighties.
If there was a magazine titled simply "Survival" it didn't manage to
make it to Gainesville, FL because I cruise the magazine racks at the
big book stores looking for this stuff and it's been a long, long time
since anything new has come down the pike.
Backwoods Home is the nearest thing to a survivalist magazine now and
if they can keep from looking too much like American Survival Guide
they may be able to last. Hope so, because I'm working on some
articles I want to sell them.
.....Alan.

--
Curiosity killed the cat -
lack of it is killing mankind.

[Robert]

Post by n***@nowhere.com
I haven't seen Survival Magazine for several years
and assume it's defunct.
Anyone know the circumstances of it's demise?
It was a really great and interesting resource.
Larry

Jim Benson started a new one online:
http://www.magserver.net/modernsurvival/

[n***@nowhere.com]

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:40:22 GMT, "Robert"

Post by Robert
http://www.magserver.net/modernsurvival/

Thank you for that url.
I looked at the website. Do you think the emag is worthwhile?

I liked being able to buy ASG on the newstands instead of being on a
mailing list.

Larry

[The Orchardist]

Post by n***@nowhere.com
I liked being able to buy ASG on the newstands instead of being on a
mailing list.
Larry

It's web based.

You can pay with a money order, and surf from the public library or a
free wireless hotspot.

No mailing list involved.

[Robert]

Post by n***@nowhere.com
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:40:22 GMT, "Robert"

Post by Robert
http://www.magserver.net/modernsurvival/

Thank you for that url.
I looked at the website. Do you think the emag is worthwhile?
I liked being able to buy ASG on the newstands instead of being on a
mailing list.
Larry

That is a difficult question to answer. ASG was mostly uninteresting
to me in the first place. I was never really happy with it, but when
it was the only survival magazine left I had no choice if I wanted to
see what was new in gear, ideas, vehicles, guns, food, etc., etc.

Now with the internet I can get new information better and faster than
in magazines, printed or online.

I think the best magazine was "Survive" and once in a while ebay has
the full run up for auction. If you are a newbie and you want tons of
information, that is the magazine I would get first, even if it is
almost 20 years old.

The best place to start reading about survivalism and what it all
means is by first getting a copy of Mel Tappan's "Tappan on Survival"
as the starting point. Next get a copy of "Apocalypse Tomorrow" by
Duncan Long.

The internet provides most everything else these days. Go over to
http://www.frugalsquirrels.com and get "Light's Out" for a good modern
story that details the struggle and equipment you need.

Robert

[Tim May]

Post by Robert
That is a difficult question to answer. ASG was mostly uninteresting
to me in the first place. I was never really happy with it, but when
it was the only survival magazine left I had no choice if I wanted to
see what was new in gear, ideas, vehicles, guns, food, etc., etc.
Now with the internet I can get new information better and faster than
in magazines, printed or online.

This is true in several areas I follow.

For example, 25 years ago "Byte" was a main part of my reading, then
"PC Magazine" several years later, then "Macworld" and "MacUser."
During their peaks, each was running 400+ pages. Of ads, articles,
detailed reviews. There was no Web in those years, of course.

One by one, the magazines consolidated, failed, got much thinner.

My latest "Macworld" is a meager 128 pages, mostly covering stuff that
was on the Web months ago. (I got a free subscription as part of some
purchase...pity the fool that pays $5.99 or whatever the current crazy
newstand price is.)

The gun mags recycle the same old reviews, only slightly changed.

I stopped subscribing to "Guns and Ammo" about 8-9 years ago. I stopped
"The American Rifleman" when I quit the NRA over its sellout of the
Second Amendment.

--Tim May

[Robert]

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 16:14:39 -0800, Tim May

Post by Tim May
This is true in several areas I follow.
For example, 25 years ago "Byte" was a main part of my reading, then
"PC Magazine" several years later, then "Macworld" and "MacUser."
During their peaks, each was running 400+ pages. Of ads, articles,
detailed reviews. There was no Web in those years, of course.
One by one, the magazines consolidated, failed, got much thinner.
My latest "Macworld" is a meager 128 pages, mostly covering stuff that
was on the Web months ago. (I got a free subscription as part of some
purchase...pity the fool that pays $5.99 or whatever the current crazy
newstand price is.)
The gun mags recycle the same old reviews, only slightly changed.
I stopped subscribing to "Guns and Ammo" about 8-9 years ago. I stopped
"The American Rifleman" when I quit the NRA over its sellout of the
Second Amendment.
--Tim May

I'm having the same problem with magazines in general.

The only general computer magazine I get is PC Magazine. It has just
enough to keep me informed and Dvorak makes me laugh, so I keep it. It
even has a geeky looking editor.

Other computer magazines have women running them and are cutey, but
just repeat product press releases instead of doing real lab testing
themselves. I guess they don't want to break a fingernail opening the
case. Who cares about the new layout when the tech info is shallow?

I have to get newsletters from Fred Langa and Scot Finnie for the up
to date and hard core tech reviews that the magazines ignore these
days.

The guns I like don't get into the magazines much. It's funny how the
Guns & Ammo Annual skips the guns that don't advertise with them, so I
just stopped buying it. I pick up the magazine once in a while just to
read Jeff Cooper, but that is about it. I tried out Gun Tests, but
their gun writers have no idea what they are talking about in some
cases. Even a web search for a bit of research before they submit
their articles would help keeping them from looking like morons, but I
guess that's too much to ask. WWW.gunblast.com does a better job of
covering some of guns I like. It's not in-depth, but they at least
show me what's new on the market instead of ignoring it. WWW.AR15.com
is where I go when I need in depth gun info. The average guy or girl
there has more knowledge and experience than almost every gun writer
being published today. It's the best run gun site I've ever seen.

I almost bought the Mother Earth News CD (the first 10 years) but it
said it only had the articles. I'll wait until they wise up and put
the whole magazines in there. I really liked their cartoons. I think
it was called, "Let the men of wisdom speak," or something like that.

Oldtime magazines were great. I often come to the web now because I
have run out of things to read.

Robert

[Winston §mith]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 07:21:18 GMT, Robert

Post by Robert
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 16:14:39 -0800, Tim May

Post by Tim May
This is true in several areas I follow.

snip

Post by Robert

Post by Tim May
The gun mags recycle the same old reviews, only slightly changed.
I stopped subscribing to "Guns and Ammo" about 8-9 years ago. I stopped
"The American Rifleman" when I quit the NRA over its sellout of the
Second Amendment.
--Tim May

I'm having the same problem with magazines in general.

snip

Post by Robert
The guns I like don't get into the magazines much. It's funny how the
Guns & Ammo Annual skips the guns that don't advertise with them, so I
just stopped buying it. I pick up the magazine once in a while just to
read Jeff Cooper, but that is about it. I tried out Gun Tests, but
their gun writers have no idea what they are talking about in some
cases.

This is the generic trouble with all reviews IMHO. They are testing
stuff made by their advertisers. When is the last time you read a
review that said something like, "This is a piece of S***, avoid it at
all costs"?

I actually did read a review on a home tape recorder back in the late
50s that said just about that. It also said the manufacturer was
trading in on their good name in professional equipment and that it
was meant for the suckers market that thought expensive equaled good.

The manufacturer was one of their important advertisers and was not
amused. They didn't advertize there for ten years. Every later
review said it was swell stuff.

snip

Post by Robert
I almost bought the Mother Earth News CD (the first 10 years) but it
said it only had the articles. I'll wait until they wise up and put
the whole magazines in there. I really liked their cartoons. I think
it was called, "Let the men of wisdom speak," or something like that.

Kinda like ASGs "staff reports". Always short, superficial and using
the same words as the full page ad by that manufacturer in the same
issue. In fact I never saw a test or review that didn't have a
matching ad.

Post by Robert
Oldtime magazines were great. I often come to the web now because I
have run out of things to read.
Robert

--
W§ in m.s - http://members.1stconnect.com/anozira

[Tim May]

Post by Robert
I'm having the same problem with magazines in general.
The only general computer magazine I get is PC Magazine. It has just
enough to keep me informed and Dvorak makes me laugh, so I keep it. It
even has a geeky looking editor.

Is it still Michael Miller?

I know him (and Dvorak, and Pournelle...) from Bay Area parties and
events.

I haven't looked a copy of "PC" in several years.

Post by Robert
Other computer magazines have women running them and are cutey, but
just repeat product press releases instead of doing real lab testing
themselves. I guess they don't want to break a fingernail opening the
case. Who cares about the new layout when the tech info is shallow?

My impression is that nearly everyone is cutting back on real testing.
A friend of mine, Steve Satchell, used to run the testing lab for some
of the major mags, most the Ziff-Davis (aka ZDNet) ones. This lab was
phased-out several years ago and he was out of a job.

Post by Robert
I have to get newsletters from Fred Langa and Scot Finnie for the up
to date and hard core tech reviews that the magazines ignore these
days.

I read Tom'sHardware and the various Web sites for overclocking
(dangerous, for various reasons) and the latest on Athlons and
Pentiums.

Post by Robert
The guns I like don't get into the magazines much. It's funny how the
Guns & Ammo Annual skips the guns that don't advertise with them, so I
just stopped buying it.

This has been true of magazines for at least the past 200 years!

--Tim May

[Robert]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:37:51 -0800, Tim May

Post by Tim May
Is it still Michael Miller?

Yes.

[Perry Noid]

Post by n***@nowhere.com
I haven't seen Survival Magazine for several years
and assume it's defunct.

Yeap. Someone bought "American Survival Guide" and thought they knew how
to run it better, changed the name to "Self-Reliance Journal". Why does
someone pay so much money for the company name just to throw it away?? I
think it was an ego thing. It spooked their big ad buyers so their cash
flow fell off and the new owners didn't have enough cash to cover
shortages. Rumors of it's failure snowballed its demise.


Backwoods Home Magazine bought their subscription list and gave ASG
subscribers at least one free issue each. They also got at least one of
ASG's writers, forgot who now.

http://www.backwoodshome.com

[Ormond Laplante]

Post by n***@nowhere.com
I haven't seen Survival Magazine for several years
and assume it's defunct.
Anyone know the circumstances of it's demise?

Asg has gone because the ownerdid not have ad people to pay ,for the ads,
Try moderm survival .com ,the old editer has started this mag, it only on
the net,.
THIS IS FROM MTNCAT,.

Post by n***@nowhere.com
Larry
--
Larry Alkoff N2LA - Austin TX
My address is: larryalk is_at mindspring dot

[The Rifleman]

Its on the internet now, its been rehashed and is available by subscription
only.

[Winston §mith]

On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 11:47:08 -0000, "The Rifleman"

Post by The Rifleman
Its on the internet now, its been rehashed and is available by subscription
only.

But the last time I was there they did offer one or two articles for
free each month. Some are worth the download.

I wish them well but it has the same flaws of the paper version - most
of the articles are by people with something to sell so it's not an
honest overview and there isn't an article from an alternate view next
month to balance it. A lot of the "staff reports" are simply rehashes
of a large ad somewhere else in the issue. Strong coverage of the
latest techno-toy instead of primitive or build it yourself
approaches. Same formula, same weakness.

I fear the bottom line is that a publication that couldn't be bought
by advertisers couldn't be successful in any media. Just not enough
reader support to let them be independent.

[Bob Peterson]

Post by Winston §mith
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 11:47:08 -0000, "The Rifleman"

Post by The Rifleman
Its on the internet now, its been rehashed and is available by subscription
only.

But the last time I was there they did offer one or two articles for
free each month. Some are worth the download.
I wish them well but it has the same flaws of the paper version - most
of the articles are by people with something to sell so it's not an
honest overview and there isn't an article from an alternate view next
month to balance it. A lot of the "staff reports" are simply rehashes
of a large ad somewhere else in the issue. Strong coverage of the
latest techno-toy instead of primitive or build it yourself
approaches. Same formula, same weakness.
I fear the bottom line is that a publication that couldn't be bought
by advertisers couldn't be successful in any media. Just not enough
reader support to let them be independent.

Virtually all product reviews in most magazines are just rehashed press
releases. Most magazines do not have the resources to actually do
exhaustive testing on products, just think how long it would take to do
reliable testing on a single product. So they are forced to rely on
observations based on limited exposure to the product and what the product
manufacturer tells them. In many cases there are few products "tested" that
are not from advertisers in the publication leading one to sensibly conclude
there is some relationship there. Couple that with the high rating such
products inevitably receive, and you start to wonder why anyone would even
bother to consider the magazine's opinion worth anything.

I can think of a few computer related magazines that were not so tied to the
advertisers, and gun tests magazine was notable because they actually
torture tested guns and often said quite negative things about them, but I
think it was more of a hobby to the publishers than a real business, and
IIRC, they did not even accept advertising.

[Gunner]

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 17:07:04 -0600, "Bob Peterson"

Post by Bob Peterson
I can think of a few computer related magazines that were not so tied to the
advertisers, and gun tests magazine was notable because they actually
torture tested guns and often said quite negative things about them, but I
think it was more of a hobby to the publishers than a real business, and
IIRC, they did not even accept advertising.

Yup..we did break a few guns <G>

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

[bookburn]

Post by Gunner
On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 17:07:04 -0600, "Bob Peterson"

Post by Bob Peterson
I can think of a few computer related magazines that were not

so tied to the

Post by Gunner

Post by Bob Peterson
advertisers, and gun tests magazine was notable because they

actually

Post by Gunner

Post by Bob Peterson
torture tested guns and often said quite negative things about them, but I
think it was more of a hobby to the publishers than a real

business, and

Post by Gunner

Post by Bob Peterson
IIRC, they did not even accept advertising.

Yup..we did break a few guns <G>
Gunner
"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

Negatives about military weapons seem to be deficient or
misleading, as is truth, generally, in military camo. I have
hear a few negatives about the M-16 in Iraq, that if has
malfunctioned, evidently from sand in the action. Bet is that,
for propaganda reasons, military is being told not to use
captured AK-47-type arms that are less affected by sand.
bookburn

[Robert]

On Sun, 4 Jan 2004 17:07:04 -0600, "Bob Peterson"

Post by Bob Peterson
I can think of a few computer related magazines that were not so tied to the
advertisers, and gun tests magazine was notable because they actually
torture tested guns and often said quite negative things about them, but I
think it was more of a hobby to the publishers than a real business, and
IIRC, they did not even accept advertising.

While valuable for their limited tests, I find their incredible lack
of knowledge about some of the guns they test unbearable. On subjects
I know a bit about, they display such unbelievable ignorance it hurts
my head to even think about it. If they were responsible they would at
least spend half an hour on Google double checking their "facts."

Take a kid who has never seen a gun before from journalism class in
high school, give him a few guns to test, and you would come up with
approximately the same kind of articles that appear in Gun Tests. Much
more honest than the glossy gun press, but without any in-depth
knowledge of what they are writing about.

I had a subscription when they first came out back in the mid 90's,
then again earlier this year when I decided to give them another try.
What a waste. The only thing I've seen recently that is worse is the
Guns & Ammo Annual on the stands now. I couldn't even look at that
garbage for more than a minute. Shotgun News is good for looking at
ads and seeing what's new, but their journalism is ad driven, just
like the glossy mags .

If you need to know the truth about a particular gun you have to go to
the appropriate forums. Even there you have to watch it. One of the
big forum sites will delete your post if it is negative about a
current advertiser and lock out your account.

Getting to the truth is never easy. It is rarely found on a news stand
magazine.

Robert

[Gunner]

Post by Robert
Take a kid who has never seen a gun before from journalism class in
high school, give him a few guns to test, and you would come up with
approximately the same kind of articles that appear in Gun Tests. Much
more honest than the glossy gun press, but without any in-depth
knowledge of what they are writing about.
I had a subscription when they first came out back in the mid 90's,

There was an earlier version of Gun Test, printed in black and white on
a sort of recycled paper. Those dudes were harsh, knowledgable and rough
on the guns in question. I was peripherally involved in some of the
testing as a buddy was a regular contributor, and I did a fair amount of
the photos. Didn't pay anything to speak of..but they were impartial as
hell, and ultimately couldnt get advertisers and pissed off a lot of the
more artsyfartsy gun owner..the guy who just bought a new Python for
huge money and then found out they tended to be a POS.

But it was fun for the couple 2-3 yrs it ran.,

Gunner



"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

[Robert]

Post by Gunner
There was an earlier version of Gun Test, printed in black and white on
a sort of recycled paper. Those dudes were harsh, knowledgable and rough
on the guns in question. I was peripherally involved in some of the
testing as a buddy was a regular contributor, and I did a fair amount of
the photos. Didn't pay anything to speak of..but they were impartial as
hell, and ultimately couldnt get advertisers and pissed off a lot of the
more artsyfartsy gun owner..the guy who just bought a new Python for
huge money and then found out they tended to be a POS.
But it was fun for the couple 2-3 yrs it ran.,
Gunner

This is the one I mentioned:
http://www.gun-tests.com/

I just went looking for an old issue but can't find um. They are not
where I left them in 1997. Somebody cleaned up.

Robert

[Robert]

Post by Gunner
There was an earlier version of Gun Test, printed in black and white on
a sort of recycled paper. Those dudes were harsh, knowledgable and rough
on the guns in question.

Is it still copyrighted?

It could make a nice website.

Robert

[Gunner]

Post by Robert

Post by Gunner
There was an earlier version of Gun Test, printed in black and white on
a sort of recycled paper. Those dudes were harsh, knowledgable and rough
on the guns in question.

Is it still copyrighted?
It could make a nice website.
Robert

No idea. Im not even sure if I have a copy anymore. Ill check my
magazine stash this weekend. Ive got gun mags going back to the 40s.

Gunner



"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

[Robert]

Post by Gunner
No idea. Im not even sure if I have a copy anymore. Ill check my
magazine stash this weekend. Ive got gun mags going back to the 40s.
Gunner

Thanks. I really like the reviews where they do real tests such as
putting a thousand rounds downrange for a function test. I even
remember five thousand round tests. A recent G&A test had the writer
admitting he didn't have time to get to the range! Why publish it
then?

I recently started a subscription to SWAT because they are running a
few decent articles now, mostly focusing on training and tactics. I
dropped them back in the 1980s when they fired Chuck Taylor for
writing a less then favorable pistol review. The manufacturer
complained and got him fired. Later all the negatives Taylor pointed
out became major problems and the pistol was dropped. I guess all he
had to do was say he didn't have time to get to the range...and he
could have kept his job!

I might get a sub to Small Arms Review as well. They have Kokalis as
editor now so maybe I can put up with a few marginal articles. The one
warning sign I got that all is not well is when he wrote, "It is
claimed...but I have not confirmed this." Oh well, I guess that is
still a few notches above the usual glossy press. Black and white on
recycled paper sounds good to me now. I don't recall ever seeing it
though. My loss.

Robert

[Bob Peterson]

Post by Gunner

Post by Robert

Post by Gunner
There was an earlier version of Gun Test, printed in black and white on
a sort of recycled paper. Those dudes were harsh, knowledgable and rough
on the guns in question.

Is it still copyrighted?
It could make a nice website.
Robert

No idea. Im not even sure if I have a copy anymore. Ill check my
magazine stash this weekend. Ive got gun mags going back to the 40s.

Someone left a recent copy of Gun tests down at the club. I was reading
through it Tuesday. It is not even remotely close to the old magazine. It
lists a whole bunch of defects in firearms, then goes on to reccomend them,
even some with serious flaws.

Post by Gunner
Gunner
"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster
Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

[Robert]

Post by Gunner
There was an earlier version of Gun Test, printed in black and white on
a sort of recycled paper. Those dudes were harsh, knowledgable and rough
on the guns in question. I was peripherally involved in some of the
testing as a buddy was a regular contributor, and I did a fair amount of
the photos. Didn't pay anything to speak of..but they were impartial as
hell, and ultimately couldnt get advertisers and pissed off a lot of the
more artsyfartsy gun owner..the guy who just bought a new Python for
huge money and then found out they tended to be a POS.
But it was fun for the couple 2-3 yrs it ran.,
Gunner

Was it called "Handgun Tests" and put out by the same people that did
Pistolero?

I don't recall ever seeing a copy of Handgun Tests, but I found a few
copies of Pistolero in my storage area today. I loved that magazine,
but never got more than a few issues. I was just a poor kid back then
and not many places carried it.

Robert