[nznog] Vodafone dial pattern - another change ?

[Ian Batterbee]

In the last 24 hours I've heard from multiple sources that Vodafone is
now using 8 digit prepay numbers - the numbers I was given that were
reported 'not working' (because our PBX didn't match all the digits)
were both 021-0222xxxx, ie, 8 digits after the 021.

I know I asked about this only one month ago, but back then 021[012]
only appeared to require 6 further digits, and not 7.

I've just tried calling both 0222xxxx numbers from my vodafone mobile,
and they they both rang. I tried leaving the last digit off, and they
both failed, so it does suggest that things have changed.

Does anyone know what's going on, and/or what the correct prefix for
this number pattern is ? If I change my end to match 0210 plus 7, it
will introduce a 5 second delay into any numbers that only have 6 digits
after the 0210

[Steve Phillips]

Post by Ian Batterbee
In the last 24 hours I've heard from multiple sources that Vodafone is
now using 8 digit prepay numbers - the numbers I was given that were
reported 'not working' (because our PBX didn't match all the digits)
were both 021-0222xxxx, ie, 8 digits after the 021.
I know I asked about this only one month ago, but back then 021[012]
only appeared to require 6 further digits, and not 7.
I've just tried calling both 0222xxxx numbers from my vodafone mobile,
and they they both rang. I tried leaving the last digit off, and they
both failed, so it does suggest that things have changed.
Does anyone know what's going on, and/or what the correct prefix for
this number pattern is ? If I change my end to match 0210 plus 7, it
will introduce a 5 second delay into any numbers that only have 6 digits
after the 0210

Doesn't vodafone own "anything after the 021", similar to how a domain
structure is setup ? and if so, you are in essence asking "so.. there is
this co.nz domain, can someone please let me know _all_ the permutations
under this domain as I um, want to <insert random reasoning here>"

Surely the delay thing is why most VoIP type systems accept something
such as "#" as an "I've finished inputting my number, please dial it"
indicator ?

Is the 5 seconds tuneable ? "wait 5 seconds till the 5th digit has been
entered then change this to 3 seconds till the 7th digit then change
this to 1 second"

[Glen Eustace]

Post by Steve Phillips
Doesn't vodafone own "anything after the 021", similar to how a domain
structure is setup ? and if so, you are in essence asking "so.. there is
this co.nz domain, can someone please let me know _all_ the permutations
under this domain as I um, want to <insert random reasoning here>"

You are basically correct but it would seem to be fairly std practice to
put the various route patterns into the tables so that the # is only
need for international calls. We, at Massey Uni, have all the various
combinations of lengths in the 02[1579] ranges in both the VoIP and Legacy
switches.

Ian, if you get an answer, I'd like to know too please.

Glen.

[Daniel Quigan]

Not entirely. Traditional voice often has a "max number" setting which
stops people from dialing extra digits. Currently for Vodafone this would
be 7, if they're now using 8 for pre-pay then this would need to be
increased to 8 to allow for these new numbers.

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Phillips [mailto:***@focb.co.nz]
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:27 AM
To: ***@list.waikato.ac.nz
Subject: Re: [nznog] Vodafone dial pattern - another change ?

Post by Ian Batterbee
In the last 24 hours I've heard from multiple sources that Vodafone is
now using 8 digit prepay numbers - the numbers I was given that were
reported 'not working' (because our PBX didn't match all the digits)
were both 021-0222xxxx, ie, 8 digits after the 021.
I know I asked about this only one month ago, but back then 021[012]
only appeared to require 6 further digits, and not 7.
I've just tried calling both 0222xxxx numbers from my vodafone mobile,
and they they both rang. I tried leaving the last digit off, and they
both failed, so it does suggest that things have changed.
Does anyone know what's going on, and/or what the correct prefix for
this number pattern is ? If I change my end to match 0210 plus 7, it
will introduce a 5 second delay into any numbers that only have 6 digits
after the 0210

Doesn't vodafone own "anything after the 021", similar to how a domain
structure is setup ? and if so, you are in essence asking "so.. there is
this co.nz domain, can someone please let me know _all_ the permutations
under this domain as I um, want to <insert random reasoning here>"

Surely the delay thing is why most VoIP type systems accept something
such as "#" as an "I've finished inputting my number, please dial it"
indicator ?

Is the 5 seconds tuneable ? "wait 5 seconds till the 5th digit has been
entered then change this to 3 seconds till the 7th digit then change
this to 1 second"

[Steve Phillips]

Post by Daniel Quigan
Not entirely. Traditional voice often has a "max number" setting which
stops people from dialing extra digits. Currently for Vodafone this would
be 7, if they're now using 8 for pre-pay then this would need to be
increased to 8 to allow for these new numbers.

Yep, and AFAIK this is set to around 14.

So, two digits for the country code, two for access code leaves 10
digits that vodafone can play with.

(I'll confirm the exact number later if anyone cares, but its something
close to that)

Why would you assume that they will use 7 ? its a decision that they can
make entirely arbitarily, they own the space below +6421 and as such can
dictate pretty much any number. (afaik the reasons its set to 14 are due
to equipment limitations over anything else, Enum and VoIP may end up
negating a lot of these limitations.)

As I pointed out, there are other ways to solve a problem rather than
relying on something out of your control (always a flawed model) - Why
not start to employ some of them and fix YOUR system rather than ask
<insert third party business here> to change their systems to suit you ?

[Daniel Quigan]

A couple of Vodafone employees have confirmed that they are using 8 digit
prepay numbers now.

-----Original Message-----
From: Glen Eustace [mailto:***@godzone.net.nz]
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:52 AM
To: ***@list.waikato.ac.nz
Subject: Re: [nznog] Vodafone dial pattern - another change ?

Post by Steve Phillips
Doesn't vodafone own "anything after the 021", similar to how a domain
structure is setup ? and if so, you are in essence asking "so.. there is
this co.nz domain, can someone please let me know _all_ the permutations
under this domain as I um, want to <insert random reasoning here>"

You are basically correct but it would seem to be fairly std practice to
put the various route patterns into the tables so that the # is only
need for international calls. We, at Massey Uni, have all the various
combinations of lengths in the 02[1579] ranges in both the VoIP and Legacy
switches.

Ian, if you get an answer, I'd like to know too please.

Glen.

[Neil Fenemor - Tasman Solutions]

Yeah, I've seen a few in Nelson already.

Also, on a side note, looking at the New Zealand National Numbering
Plan from the MED, the national destination code of 21, which is
labeled as mobile service, has a maximum length of 9 additional digits.

Cheers

neil

Post by Daniel Quigan
A couple of Vodafone employees have confirmed that they are using 8 digit
prepay numbers now.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: [nznog] Vodafone dial pattern - another change ?

Post by Steve Phillips
Doesn't vodafone own "anything after the 021", similar to how a domain
structure is setup ? and if so, you are in essence asking "so.. there is
this co.nz domain, can someone please let me know _all_ the
permutations
under this domain as I um, want to <insert random reasoning here>"

You are basically correct but it would seem to be fairly std
practice to
put the various route patterns into the tables so that the # is only
need for international calls. We, at Massey Uni, have all the various
combinations of lengths in the 02[1579] ranges in both the VoIP and Legacy
switches.
Ian, if you get an answer, I'd like to know too please.
Glen.
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[Daniel Quigan]

I work for a 2nd tier telco, we set our own max number lengths, hence why
this information is important to us.

I'm assuming your other comments are for Ian, not me, as there is nothing
wrong with our network. I agree that setting max number lengths on a PABX
is probably not the best practice and is something which is best left to the
telco.

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Phillips [mailto:***@focb.co.nz]
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 10:56 AM
To: ***@list.waikato.ac.nz
Subject: Re: [nznog] Vodafone dial pattern - another change ?

Post by Daniel Quigan
Not entirely. Traditional voice often has a "max number" setting which
stops people from dialing extra digits. Currently for Vodafone this would
be 7, if they're now using 8 for pre-pay then this would need to be
increased to 8 to allow for these new numbers.

Yep, and AFAIK this is set to around 14.

So, two digits for the country code, two for access code leaves 10
digits that vodafone can play with.

(I'll confirm the exact number later if anyone cares, but its something
close to that)

Why would you assume that they will use 7 ? its a decision that they can
make entirely arbitarily, they own the space below +6421 and as such can
dictate pretty much any number. (afaik the reasons its set to 14 are due
to equipment limitations over anything else, Enum and VoIP may end up
negating a lot of these limitations.)

As I pointed out, there are other ways to solve a problem rather than
relying on something out of your control (always a flawed model) - Why
not start to employ some of them and fix YOUR system rather than ask
<insert third party business here> to change their systems to suit you ?

[Steven Schmidt]

Anyone from Trademe on list.
Please reply off list.

Thanks.
Steve.

[Ian Batterbee]

Post by Steve Phillips
Surely the delay thing is why most VoIP type systems accept something
such as "#" as an "I've finished inputting my number, please dial it"
indicator ?

Although we do operate a VoIP system, that's largely irrelevant, because
our previous PBX (Ericsson MD110) had all the patterns configured into
it as well, so we would have been in the same situation. Users don't
expect to have to dial a # at the end of their number, and we shouldn't
expect them to have to do so.

Post by Steve Phillips
Is the 5 seconds tuneable ? "wait 5 seconds till the 5th digit has been
entered then change this to 3 seconds till the 7th digit then change
this to 1 second"

The 5-second delay is coming from TelstraClear.. so no, we can't tune
it. They're waiting for another digit, and when I posted about last
month, it was because TCL's pattern was actually incorrect, and was
waiting for extra digits that would never come, resulting in an
unncessary 5 second setup delay to a large number of 021 numbers. This
has since been corrected.

A number of PBX systems validate the numbers so that they can match and
therefore route them down the most appropriate route. Our (Cisco) PBX
comes with patterns for most countries, which simplifies the task of
setting up a new system. While I agree NZ's plan is relatively simple,
other countries are not, and that's probably the reason they do it that
way.

There is the possibilty that we could enable overlap sending.. which I
believe means that you send each digit as it is dialled, rather than all
at once in an ISDN SETUP message - as it gives the telco the option to
send back 'more needed', or 'that's enough digits'.. but.. I'm reluctant
to turn it on without some proper testing first.

Thanks to Barry who found the info I needed, and finally, to those of
you who do validate the numbers locally, and who were forced into
silence before posting anything by Steve's helpful comments, here are
the new patterns:

021 0221 XXXX
021 0222 XXXX

I believe there may be more coming.

[Gavin Legge]

I used to work for a telco and on many occasions observed overlap sending on
ISDN's working fine. This while watching test instruments across live lines.
- so yeah - it's used out there for sure... Go for it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Batterbee [mailto:***@aut.ac.nz]
Sent: Friday, 23 September 2005 1:16 p.m.
To: ***@list.waikato.ac.nz
Subject: Re: [nznog] Vodafone dial pattern - another change ?

Post by Steve Phillips
Surely the delay thing is why most VoIP type systems accept something
such as "#" as an "I've finished inputting my number, please dial it"
indicator ?

Although we do operate a VoIP system, that's largely irrelevant, because our
previous PBX (Ericsson MD110) had all the patterns configured into it as
well, so we would have been in the same situation. Users don't expect to
have to dial a # at the end of their number, and we shouldn't expect them to
have to do so.

Post by Steve Phillips
Is the 5 seconds tuneable ? "wait 5 seconds till the 5th digit has been
entered then change this to 3 seconds till the 7th digit then change
this to 1 second"

The 5-second delay is coming from TelstraClear.. so no, we can't tune it.
They're waiting for another digit, and when I posted about last month, it
was because TCL's pattern was actually incorrect, and was waiting for extra
digits that would never come, resulting in an unncessary 5 second setup
delay to a large number of 021 numbers. This has since been corrected.

A number of PBX systems validate the numbers so that they can match and
therefore route them down the most appropriate route. Our (Cisco) PBX comes
with patterns for most countries, which simplifies the task of setting up a
new system. While I agree NZ's plan is relatively simple, other countries
are not, and that's probably the reason they do it that way.

There is the possibilty that we could enable overlap sending.. which I
believe means that you send each digit as it is dialled, rather than all at
once in an ISDN SETUP message - as it gives the telco the option to send
back 'more needed', or 'that's enough digits'.. but.. I'm reluctant to turn
it on without some proper testing first.

Thanks to Barry who found the info I needed, and finally, to those of you
who do validate the numbers locally, and who were forced into silence before
posting anything by Steve's helpful comments, here are the new patterns:

021 0221 XXXX
021 0222 XXXX

I believe there may be more coming.



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[Glen Eustace]

Post by Ian Batterbee
Thanks to Barry who found the info I needed, and finally, to those of
you who do validate the numbers locally, and who were forced into
silence before posting anything by Steve's helpful comments, here are
021 0221 XXXX
021 0222 XXXX
I believe there may be more coming.

Thanks. Telecom had already updated our PBXes, no body told me so the
Cisco CM got missed.

Glen.