Great Salt Lake

Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
I'd like to know whether the definite article should be used before
names of lakes, such as Great Salt Lake, Crater Lake, and Great Slave Lake.
I'd appreciate your help.

I wouldn't use it. "We have a beautiful view of Great Slave Lake; we
are flying over Crater Lake."

I am less sure of the usage for "Great Salt Lake" -- it feels as if it
might accept an article. It is a salt lake, and a big one; the use of
the definite article may depend on the extent to which the name is felt
to be a description.*

Maybe someone who lives nearer to Utah than I do can say if the article
is often used.
________________________________
*"Great Slave Lake", on the other hand, is not related to a general
description. It was named after the Slaveys, a Dene people who live on
its shores. That name for them was given by their Cree enemies to the
first European explorers: "Le Grand Lac des Esclaves" in French.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Slave_Lake

Hank

2019-11-24 17:42:21 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
I'd like to know whether the definite article should be used before
names of lakes, such as Great Salt Lake, Crater Lake, and Great Slave Lake.
I'd appreciate your help.

I live in the center of Wyoming, so can talk about how we refer to
things down that way.

"Salt Lake" alone means "Salt Lake City." As in "I'm going down to Salt
Lake for Thanksgiving." To refer to the lake itself, you have to be
specific, so "the Salt Lake" would be used.

Hank

CDB

2019-11-24 18:55:19 UTC

Post by Hank

Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
I'd like to know whether the definite article should be used
before names of lakes, such as Great Salt Lake, Crater Lake, and
Great Slave Lake.
I'd appreciate your help.

I live in the center of Wyoming, so can talk about how we refer to
things down that way.
"Salt Lake" alone means "Salt Lake City." As in "I'm going down to
Salt Lake for Thanksgiving." To refer to the lake itself, you have
to be specific, so "the Salt Lake" would be used.

Ah. Thank you, for the datum and for the explanation.

Yurui Liu

2019-11-25 01:59:28 UTC

CDB於 2019年11月24日星期日 UTC+8下午7時55分30秒寫道：

Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
I'd like to know whether the definite article should be used before
names of lakes, such as Great Salt Lake, Crater Lake, and Great Slave Lake.
I'd appreciate your help.

Thank you. What about "Rainy River" and "Rainy Lake"?

Post by CDB
Maybe someone who lives nearer to Utah than I do can say if the article
is often used.
________________________________
*"Great Slave Lake", on the other hand, is not related to a general
description. It was named after the Slaveys, a Dene people who live on
its shores. That name for them was given by their Cree enemies to the
first European explorers: "Le Grand Lac des Esclaves" in French.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Slave_Lake

CDB

2019-11-25 11:46:07 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
CDB：

Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
I'd like to know whether the definite article should be used
before names of lakes, such as Great Salt Lake, Crater Lake, and
Great Slave Lake.
I'd appreciate your help.

Thank you. What about "Rainy River" and "Rainy Lake"?

Again, no article. I suppose you're exploring the distinction I
mentioned, but "rainy" is not a description of a lake in the way that
"salt" is. Rainy Lake/River is probably in an area where it rains often
(the Rainy River I know of is in Northwestern Ontario), but raininess is
not its constant condition, as saltiness always is of a salt lake. I
suspect many such places were named by someone who came upon them in a
rainstorm; I knew a particular lake in an area I used to visit in summer
as "Canteen Lake" (no "the") because my water-bottle went overboard and
sank while I was canoeing there.

Post by Yurui Liu

Post by CDB
Maybe someone who lives nearer to Utah than I do can say if the
article is often used.

You may have seen the posting from Hank who says that local usage is
"the Salt Lake", to distinguish it from "Salt Lake", the city of that name.

It seems that the use of the article is variable and sometimes local.
Insofar as there is a rule, I think the distinction I have mentioned may
be a useful attempt at it.

Post by Yurui Liu

Post by CDB
________________________________ *"Great Slave Lake", on the other
hand, is not related to a general description. It was named after
the Slaveys, a Dene people who live on its shores. That name for
them was given by their Cree enemies to the first European
explorers: "Le Grand Lac des Esclaves" in French.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Slave_Lake

Garrett Wollman

2019-11-25 17:58:38 UTC

Post by CDB
You may have seen the posting from Hank who says that local usage is
"the Salt Lake", to distinguish it from "Salt Lake", the city of that name.
It seems that the use of the article is variable and sometimes local.
Insofar as there is a rule, I think the distinction I have mentioned may
be a useful attempt at it.

Unlike lakes, for all of the examples I can think of, rivers are
arthrous, whether you say "the X River" or just "the X"[1] -- whereas
I think the Great Salt Lake is exceptional in its arthrousness for
lakes (I can't think of another[2]). Oceans and seas are always
arthrous; swamps and marshes might be either, and ponds usually
anarthrous. Streams, creeks, brooks, and other minor watercourses are
generally anarthrous IME.

A lot of this, I suspect, boils down to whether the name was thought
of as an arbitrary label or merely descriptive at the time it was
first standardized. "The Great Salt Lake" could easily have started
out as "the great salt lake in Utah Territory".

-GAWollman

[1] We don't do "River X" here, at all. But we have no problem with
freely alternating "Lake X" and "X Lake", although not for the same
body of water, so long as X is shaped like a proper noun in some
abstract sense.

[2] Maybe Lake of the Woods?

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

Peter T. Daniels

2019-11-25 18:23:41 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman
[1] We don't do "River X" here, at all. But we have no problem with
freely alternating "Lake X" and "X Lake", although not for the same
body of water, so long as X is shaped like a proper noun in some
abstract sense.

The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger.

Post by Garrett Wollman
[2] Maybe Lake of the Woods?

The source of the Hudson is Lake Tear of the Clouds.

Peter Young

2019-11-25 19:55:56 UTC

The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger.

However, The Congo River, The Zambezi River and The Niger River are
acceptable, but The Nile River isn't.

Who decides these things?

And what about "The Great Green Greasy Limpopo River, all set about with
fever trees"?

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Peter T. Daniels

2019-11-25 20:45:41 UTC

The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger.

However, The Congo River, The Zambezi River and The Niger River are
acceptable, but The Nile River isn't.
Who decides these things?

Oh, hey, I thought it would be continental (Volga River, Danube River,
Ural River) -- but River Rhine, River Seine, River Loire. And the Ebro,
the Tiber, the Po.

And then in Asia the Oxus, the Amu Darya, the Yangtze, the Hwang-Ho,
the Ganges, the Indus; but the Mekong River (Delta) and the Red River.
("Red River capital" is a favorite crossword clue for HANOI, because
you're supposed to be misdirected toward the southern US.)

Post by Peter Young
And what about "The Great Green Greasy Limpopo River, all set about with
fever trees"?

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-11-26 07:40:16 UTC

The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger.

However, The Congo River, The Zambezi River and The Niger River are
acceptable, but The Nile River isn't.

"The River Nile" is perfectly OK.

Post by Peter Young
Who decides these things?

PTD, of course. What a naive question.

Post by Peter Young
And what about "The Great Green Greasy Limpopo River, all set about with
fever trees"?
Peter.

--
athel

Peter Young

2019-11-26 09:43:33 UTC

The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger.

However, The Congo River, The Zambezi River and The Niger River are
acceptable, but The Nile River isn't.

"The River Nile" is perfectly OK.

Post by Peter Young
Who decides these things?

PTD, of course. What a naive question.

<grin>

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Kerr-Mudd,John

2019-11-26 11:13:20 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman
[1] We don't do "River X" here, at all. But we have no problem
with freely alternating "Lake X" and "X Lake", although not for
the same body of water, so long as X is shaped like a proper noun
in some abstract sense.

The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger.

However, The Congo River, The Zambezi River and The Niger River are
acceptable, but The Nile River isn't.

"The River Nile" is perfectly OK.

Post by Peter Young
Who decides these things?

PTD, of course. What a naive question.

<grin>
Peter.

The arbitrary arbiter!

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

s***@gmail.com

2019-11-27 00:38:07 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by Peter Young
Who decides these things?

PTD, of course. What a naive question.

<grin>
Peter.

The arbitrary arbiter!

No, a chronicler. Arbitration occurs in the streets.

/dps

Peter T. Daniels

2019-11-26 13:41:32 UTC

The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger.

However, The Congo River, The Zambezi River and The Niger River are
acceptable, but The Nile River isn't.

"The River Nile" is perfectly OK.

Which is exactly what both I and PY said.

Post by Peter Young
Who decides these things?

PTD, of course. What a naive question.

Oh For Christ's Sake. What the bloody hell is that supposed to mean?

Have you never opened a history or geography book?

These things are "decided" by usage.

Spains Harden

2019-11-26 16:31:56 UTC

The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger.

However, The Congo River, The Zambezi River and The Niger River are
acceptable, but The Nile River isn't.

"The River Nile" is perfectly OK.

Which is exactly what both I and PY said.

You did. To quote you:

"The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger".

Peter T. Daniels

2019-11-26 16:40:25 UTC

The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger.

However, The Congo River, The Zambezi River and The Niger River are
acceptable, but The Nile River isn't.

"The River Nile" is perfectly OK.

Which is exactly what both I and PY said.

"The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger".

Not really necessary, as it remains just above.

Spains Harden

2019-11-26 18:15:39 UTC

The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger.

However, The Congo River, The Zambezi River and The Niger River are
acceptable, but The Nile River isn't.

"The River Nile" is perfectly OK.

Which is exactly what both I and PY said.

"The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger".

Not really necessary, as it remains just above.

In Google Groups. People forget that other people see things from
different perspectives. Athel sees things in the format of a cracked
78rpm going round and around and around.

I cannot think of a good 78rpm record at all. There must be some - so
where's the Omrud when we need him?

Peter T. Daniels

2019-11-26 18:32:51 UTC

The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger.

However, The Congo River, The Zambezi River and The Niger River are
acceptable, but The Nile River isn't.

"The River Nile" is perfectly OK.

Which is exactly what both I and PY said.

"The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger".

Not really necessary, as it remains just above.

In Google Groups.

Everywhere. You quoted it. It's part of your message.

Post by Spains Harden
People forget that other people see things from
different perspectives. Athel sees things in the format of a cracked
78rpm going round and around and around.
I cannot think of a good 78rpm record at all. There must be some - so
where's the Omrud when we need him?

Oh, because RCA transferred all of Caruso's albums to LP and then CD
they don't count? Or, to be a bit more esoteric, Edwin Fischer's WTC,
or Schnabel's Beethoven?

Spains Harden

2019-11-26 18:51:11 UTC

The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger.

However, The Congo River, The Zambezi River and The Niger River are
acceptable, but The Nile River isn't.

"The River Nile" is perfectly OK.

Which is exactly what both I and PY said.

"The River Nile, but not The River Congo or The River Zambezi, but
sometimes The River Niger".

Not really necessary, as it remains just above.

In Google Groups.

Everywhere. You quoted it. It's part of your message.

Oh, because RCA transferred all of Caruso's albums to LP and then CD
they don't count? Or, to be a bit more esoteric, Edwin Fischer's WTC,
or Schnabel's Beethoven?

The film Gallipoli has a famous 78rpm playing - Albinoni Adagio by
the captain in his tent? No link that I can find other than to the
general theme.

My Grandmother had Cicily Courtenidge (sic) but that is no happy
hunting ground either. "Christmas at the Buggins"? All rubbish.
After that you made way for the Orchestras. It all makes living in
2019 seem almost civilised?

Peter T. Daniels

2019-11-26 20:51:13 UTC

Post by Spains Harden
I cannot think of a good 78rpm record at all. There must be some - so
where's the Omrud when we need him?

Oh, because RCA transferred all of Caruso's albums to LP and then CD
they don't count? Or, to be a bit more esoteric, Edwin Fischer's WTC,
or Schnabel's Beethoven?

Or a bit less esoteric, the Martyn Green G&S recordings mentioned
yesterday, not to mention the ones (less systematically handled)
by his predecessors in those roles.

Post by Spains Harden
The film Gallipoli has a famous 78rpm playing - Albinoni Adagio by
the captain in his tent? No link that I can find other than to the
general theme.

I haven't seen the movie, but the piece popularly known as "Albinoni's
Adagio" didn't exist in 1915, and the familiar version has only a tenuous
connection to the composer Tomaso Albinoni.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adagio_in_G_minor

It mentions its use in that movie but doesn't say how.

Peter T. Daniels

2019-11-26 21:32:53 UTC

Post by Spains Harden
I cannot think of a good 78rpm record at all. There must be some - so
where's the Omrud when we need him?

Oh, because RCA transferred all of Caruso's albums to LP and then CD
they don't count? Or, to be a bit more esoteric, Edwin Fischer's WTC,
or Schnabel's Beethoven?

Or a bit less esoteric, the Martyn Green G&S recordings mentioned
yesterday, not to mention the ones (less systematically handled)
by his predecessors in those roles.

Post by Spains Harden
The film Gallipoli has a famous 78rpm playing - Albinoni Adagio by
the captain in his tent? No link that I can find other than to the
general theme.

I haven't seen the movie, but the piece popularly known as "Albinoni's
Adagio" didn't exist in 1915, and the familiar version has only a tenuous
connection to the composer Tomaso Albinoni.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adagio_in_G_minor
It mentions its use in that movie but doesn't say how.

No 78 of it should even exist, because it wasn't published until 1958.

b***@shaw.ca

2019-11-27 04:01:01 UTC

Post by Spains Harden
I cannot think of a good 78rpm record at all. There must be some - so
where's the Omrud when we need him?

Oh, because RCA transferred all of Caruso's albums to LP and then CD
they don't count? Or, to be a bit more esoteric, Edwin Fischer's WTC,
or Schnabel's Beethoven?

Or a bit less esoteric, the Martyn Green G&S recordings mentioned
yesterday, not to mention the ones (less systematically handled)
by his predecessors in those roles.

Post by Spains Harden
The film Gallipoli has a famous 78rpm playing - Albinoni Adagio by
the captain in his tent? No link that I can find other than to the
general theme.

I haven't seen the movie, but the piece popularly known as "Albinoni's
Adagio" didn't exist in 1915, and the familiar version has only a tenuous
connection to the composer Tomaso Albinoni.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adagio_in_G_minor
It mentions its use in that movie but doesn't say how.

No 78 of it should even exist, because it wasn't published until 1958.

That might be a close call. Various Web sites say the last mainstream
78s were issued in 1959, and some children's records were produced
until 1964.

bill

Quinn C

2019-11-27 22:55:56 UTC

Post by Spains Harden
The film Gallipoli has a famous 78rpm playing - Albinoni Adagio by
the captain in his tent? No link that I can find other than to the
general theme.

A review on imdb mentions an Adagio. I can't say whether it's the one,
but it seems likely.

| I can't imagine any better musical score or musical editing:the
| juxtaposition of elegant Strauss waltzes the night before
| debarkation with the funereal Adagio as the troops cross the water
| is genius.

Elegant Strauss waltzes - inspiration for "2001"?

--
I found the Forshan religion restful. I found the Forshan
religious war less so.
-- J. Scalzi, Redshirts

s***@gmail.com

2019-11-27 00:34:58 UTC

On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 10:15:43 AM UTC-8, Spains Harden wrote:

[mutual abnegation elided]

Post by Spains Harden
I cannot think of a good 78rpm record at all. There must be some - so
where's the Omrud when we need him?

"You're The Cream In My Coffee"
Annette Hanshaw, Marlene Dietrich, or Jack Hylton.

Later vinyl available, too.

(Henderson, DeSylva, Brown)

/dps

RH Draney

2019-11-27 10:00:47 UTC

Post by s***@gmail.com
[mutual abnegation elided]

Post by Spains Harden
I cannot think of a good 78rpm record at all. There must be some - so
where's the Omrud when we need him?

"You're The Cream In My Coffee"
Annette Hanshaw, Marlene Dietrich, or Jack Hylton.
Later vinyl available, too.
(Henderson, DeSylva, Brown)

Oh, by all means let's have it be Hanshaw...and I'd go so far as to say
that *all* her 78s were good records....

Her cylinders would have been enough to redeem that format as well, if
only she'd been recording before 1925...that's all!...r

Peter T. Daniels

2019-11-27 15:04:19 UTC

Post by s***@gmail.com
[mutual abnegation elided]

Post by Spains Harden
I cannot think of a good 78rpm record at all. There must be some - so
where's the Omrud when we need him?

"You're The Cream In My Coffee"
Annette Hanshaw, Marlene Dietrich, or Jack Hylton.

Dietrich?? Now that's surprising! Hard to imagine her doing anything
up-tempo.

Post by s***@gmail.com
Later vinyl available, too.
(Henderson, DeSylva, Brown)

Spains Harden

2019-11-27 15:11:02 UTC

Post by s***@gmail.com
[mutual abnegation elided]

Post by Spains Harden
I cannot think of a good 78rpm record at all. There must be some - so
where's the Omrud when we need him?

"You're The Cream In My Coffee"
Annette Hanshaw, Marlene Dietrich, or Jack Hylton.
Later vinyl available, too.
(Henderson, DeSylva, Brown)

I suppose we ought to play it on an authentic turntable:

Also a lot of the jazz: Louis Armstrong Hot 5, Hot 7. And this sort
of thing:

Wonderful to have the "Library of Everything" at our fingertips.

Yurui Liu

2019-11-25 22:32:57 UTC

Garrett Wollman於 2019年11月26日星期二 UTC+8上午1時58分41秒寫道：

Unlike lakes, for all of the examples I can think of, rivers are
arthrous, whether you say "the X River" or just "the X"[1] -- whereas
I think the Great Salt Lake is exceptional in its arthrousness for
lakes (I can't think of another[2]). Oceans and seas are always
arthrous; swamps and marshes might be either, and ponds usually
anarthrous. Streams, creeks, brooks, and other minor watercourses are
generally anarthrous IME.
A lot of this, I suspect, boils down to whether the name was thought
of as an arbitrary label or merely descriptive at the time it was
first standardized. "The Great Salt Lake" could easily have started
out as "the great salt lake in Utah Territory".

Is "Crater Lake" an arbitrary or descriptive label? There seem to be some
crater lakes.

Post by Garrett Wollman
-GAWollman
[1] We don't do "River X" here, at all. But we have no problem with
freely alternating "Lake X" and "X Lake", although not for the same
body of water, so long as X is shaped like a proper noun in some
abstract sense.
[2] Maybe Lake of the Woods?
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

Garrett Wollman

2019-11-25 23:03:44 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Is "Crater Lake" an arbitrary or descriptive label? There seem to be some
crater lakes.

Apparently it's both. Wikipedia claims:

In June 1853, John Wesley Hillman became the first non-Native
American explorer to report sighting the lake he named the
"Deep Blue Lake." The lake was renamed at least three times,
as Blue Lake, Lake Majesty, and finally Crater Lake.

It's an arbitrary label, in the sense that it was deliberately created
*to be a name*, rather than a description that over time came to be
regarded as a proper noun.

In the Klamath language it's called "giiwas" (per the same Wikipedia
article).

-GAWollman

RH Draney

2019-11-26 00:32:15 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Is "Crater Lake" an arbitrary or descriptive label? There seem to be some
crater lakes.

In June 1853, John Wesley Hillman became the first non-Native
American explorer to report sighting the lake he named the
"Deep Blue Lake." The lake was renamed at least three times,
as Blue Lake, Lake Majesty, and finally Crater Lake.
It's an arbitrary label, in the sense that it was deliberately created
*to be a name*, rather than a description that over time came to be
regarded as a proper noun.

A few hours north of me, there's a crater with no water in it to speak
of...at various times it's been called Meteor Crater, Barringer Crater,
and The Great Barringer Meteor Crater...depends, I suppose, if you want
to honor its size, its origin, or the first white man to decide it
needed a name....r

Richard Heathfield

2019-11-26 00:52:34 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Is "Crater Lake" an arbitrary or descriptive label? There seem to be some
crater lakes.

    In June 1853, John Wesley Hillman became the first non-Native
    American explorer to report sighting the lake he named the
    "Deep Blue Lake." The lake was renamed at least three times,
    as Blue Lake, Lake Majesty, and finally Crater Lake.
It's an arbitrary label, in the sense that it was deliberately created
*to be a name*, rather than a description that over time came to be
regarded as a proper noun.

It used to be the Canyon Diablo Crater, but was renamed after Daniel
Barringer. It's not clear whether Mr Barringer renamed it himself, or
whether it was renamed in his honour.

Post by RH Draney
to decide it
needed a name....r

I shouldn't have looked it up. Otherwise, I'd have been able to suggest
that "Barringer" was the sound made by the meteorite's impact.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-11-26 07:50:24 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Is "Crater Lake" an arbitrary or descriptive label? There seem to be some
crater lakes.

    In June 1853, John Wesley Hillman became the first non-Native
    American explorer to report sighting the lake he named the
    "Deep Blue Lake." The lake was renamed at least three times,
    as Blue Lake, Lake Majesty, and finally Crater Lake.
It's an arbitrary label, in the sense that it was deliberately created
*to be a name*, rather than a description that over time came to be
regarded as a proper noun.

It used to be the Canyon Diablo Crater, but was renamed after Daniel
Barringer. It's not clear whether Mr Barringer renamed it himself, or
whether it was renamed in his honour.

Post by RH Draney
to decide it needed a name....r

I shouldn't have looked it up. Otherwise, I'd have been able to suggest
that "Barringer" was the sound made by the meteorite's impact.

If global warming ever makes Arizona into a sub-tropical rain forest
Meteor Crater may fill up with water and people who don't know the
history may wonder why it is called that.

--
athel

RH Draney

2019-11-26 07:59:57 UTC

Post by RH Draney
A few hours north of me, there's a crater with no water in it to speak
of...at various times it's been called Meteor Crater, Barringer
Crater, and The Great Barringer Meteor Crater...depends, I suppose, if
you want to honor its size, its origin, or the first white man

It used to be the Canyon Diablo Crater, but was renamed after Daniel
Barringer. It's not clear whether Mr Barringer renamed it himself, or
whether it was renamed in his honour.

Post by RH Draney
to decide it needed a name....r

I shouldn't have looked it up. Otherwise, I'd have been able to suggest
that "Barringer" was the sound made by the meteorite's impact.

"It's a good thing that meteor landed where it did and not a mere five
miles to the north...otherwise it would have made a real mess out of
Interstate 40"
-- some docent at the visitor center

One of the things I remember most of my last visit to the Crater was the
raven who perched on the lip of one of the trash baskets just as we were
about to throw out the bag from the fast-food place we'd stopped at
earlier...my girlfriend was terrified of sticking her arm out the window
towards the "big scary bird", but I managed to get her to accept that
the big scary bird was probably one of the most intelligent things with
feathers on this planet, and he exhibited that intelligence in his
patience waiting for her to put the bag down rather than try to take it
from her by force....

I like ravens...they tolerate us a lot more than we deserve....r

Richard Heathfield

2019-11-26 09:29:47 UTC

<snip>

Post by Richard Heathfield
I shouldn't have looked it up. Otherwise, I'd have been able to
suggest that "Barringer" was the sound made by the meteorite's impact.

"It's a good thing that meteor landed where it did and not a mere five
miles to the north...otherwise it would have made a real mess out of
Interstate 40"
-- some docent at the visitor center

People make the same mistake (albeit on a vastly smaller scale) when
they complain that the airport shouldn't have been built so close to the
residential area.

Post by RH Draney
One of the things I remember most of my last visit to the Crater was the
raven who perched on the lip of one of the trash baskets just as we were
about to throw out the bag from the fast-food place we'd stopped at
earlier...my girlfriend was terrified of sticking her arm out the window
towards the "big scary bird", but I managed to get her to accept that
the big scary bird was probably one of the most intelligent things with
feathers on this planet, and he exhibited that intelligence in his
patience waiting for her to put the bag down rather than try to take it
from her by force....

Stop me if I've told you this one before, but I have watched (and heard)
a peacock scare the sierra hotel[1] out of a four-year-old by screeching
at the top of his voice at point blank range when she wasn't feeding him
bikkit quickly enough. Dropping the rest of the biscuit, she hoofed it
indoors, and took much persuading to come out and try again. (Only
faster this time, okay? He just wants bikkit, that's all. Go on; have
another go.)

She *wasn't* fast enough in breaking the Rich Tea into
peacock-manageable bits, unfortunately; and so the peacock screeched
again, but *this* time it did so at a vastly reduced and therefore much
less scary volume - more of a high-pitched harumph than a screech. Quick
learner, that peacock.

The same peacock could safely snatch a tick from his mate's eye (or a
bikkit from between your lips, if you encouraged him to) with
astonishing speed and pinpoint accuracy.

Post by RH Draney
I like ravens...they tolerate us a lot more than we deserve....r

I'm a big fan of peafowl and penguins, for much the same reason.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
[1] India Tango.

Jerry Friedman

2019-11-26 20:47:42 UTC

Post by Richard Heathfield
I shouldn't have looked it up. Otherwise, I'd have been able to
suggest that "Barringer" was the sound made by the meteorite's impact.

"It's a good thing that meteor landed where it did and not a mere five
miles to the north...otherwise it would have made a real mess out of
Interstate 40"
-- some docent at the visitor center

People make the same mistake (albeit on a vastly smaller scale) when
they complain that the airport shouldn't have been built so close to the
residential area.

...

I trust the docent was joking.

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter T. Daniels

2019-11-26 20:57:55 UTC

Post by RH Draney
"It's a good thing that meteor landed where it did and not a mere
five miles to the north...otherwise it would have made a real mess
out of Interstate 40"
-- some docent at the visitor center

People make the same mistake (albeit on a vastly smaller scale) when
they complain that the airport shouldn't have been built so close to
the residential area.

...
I trust the docent was joking.

My friend Chuck was a docent with the Chicago Architecture Foundation,
leading walking tours of various neighborhoods almost every Sunday
afternoon, and in his introduction he always said the audience was
welcome to interrupt with questions, and he always asked which they
would prefer if he didn't know an answer: Make something up, or say
he didn't know? Almost always, they would ask him to make something up.

(The problem rarely if ever arose.)

Ken Blake

2019-11-26 22:10:37 UTC

Post by Richard Heathfield
I shouldn't have looked it up. Otherwise, I'd have been able to
suggest that "Barringer" was the sound made by the meteorite's impact.

"It's a good thing that meteor landed where it did and not a mere five
miles to the north...otherwise it would have made a real mess out of
Interstate 40"
-- some docent at the visitor center

People make the same mistake (albeit on a vastly smaller scale) when
they complain that the airport shouldn't have been built so close to the
residential area.

...
I trust the docent was joking.

Do not trust all docents. I once heard a docent point to a cristate
saguaro and tell a tourist, "that's a crustacean saguaro."

--
Ken

Tony Cooper

2019-11-27 03:19:54 UTC

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Richard Heathfield
I shouldn't have looked it up. Otherwise, I'd have been able to
suggest that "Barringer" was the sound made by the meteorite's impact.

"It's a good thing that meteor landed where it did and not a mere five
miles to the north...otherwise it would have made a real mess out of
Interstate 40"
-- some docent at the visitor center

People make the same mistake (albeit on a vastly smaller scale) when
they complain that the airport shouldn't have been built so close to the
residential area.

...
I trust the docent was joking.

Do not trust all docents. I once heard a docent point to a cristate
saguaro and tell a tourist, "that's a crustacean saguaro."

I don't think it's a matter of trust. It's more a matter of what the
docent's responsibilities and training are. My son, when he was in
high school, was a docent at the local zoo one summer. To his
disappointment, his training consisted of being provided with maps of
the zoo so he could guide visitors who wanted to see particular
creatures. His responsibility was just to lead groups - mostly groups
of children - on tours and see that no one was separated from the
group.

No one was available to provide any information about any of the
creatures.

That was about 40 years ago, and perhaps the zoo has improved the
docent program.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

David Kleinecke

2019-11-27 04:12:32 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Richard Heathfield
I shouldn't have looked it up. Otherwise, I'd have been able to
suggest that "Barringer" was the sound made by the meteorite's impact.

"It's a good thing that meteor landed where it did and not a mere five
miles to the north...otherwise it would have made a real mess out of
Interstate 40"
-- some docent at the visitor center

People make the same mistake (albeit on a vastly smaller scale) when
they complain that the airport shouldn't have been built so close to the
residential area.

...
I trust the docent was joking.

Do not trust all docents. I once heard a docent point to a cristate
saguaro and tell a tourist, "that's a crustacean saguaro."

I don't think it's a matter of trust. It's more a matter of what the
docent's responsibilities and training are. My son, when he was in
high school, was a docent at the local zoo one summer. To his
disappointment, his training consisted of being provided with maps of
the zoo so he could guide visitors who wanted to see particular
creatures. His responsibility was just to lead groups - mostly groups
of children - on tours and see that no one was separated from the
group.
No one was available to provide any information about any of the
creatures.
That was about 40 years ago, and perhaps the zoo has improved the
docent program.

Back when I could walk better I was docent at Bancroft Garden in
Walnut Creek. I was given a lot of training - they were hoping I
could give an intelligent reply to any question about any plant.
I never quite made it up to that level but I could handle most of
common questions. Bancroft Garden is a succulent garden so I didn't
need to know about all kinds of plants.

The Garden is not a major tourist destination but it is worth a
look if one has free time in the East Bay.

Madhu

2019-11-27 09:36:42 UTC

Post by Ken Blake
Do not trust all docents. I once heard a docent point to a cristate
saguaro and tell a tourist, "that's a crustacean saguaro."

That must be the "crested saguaro" - but wherefrom "cristate"?
This brings back memories of the southwest usa. that's some geography
that I actually miss.

I think I had Cetaceans confused with Cactaceae for a brief while in my
youfh

Jerry Friedman

2019-11-27 14:09:59 UTC

Post by Madhu

Post by Ken Blake
Do not trust all docents. I once heard a docent point to a cristate
saguaro and tell a tourist, "that's a crustacean saguaro."

That must be the "crested saguaro" - but wherefrom "cristate"?

...

Latin, I assume. Some birds have "cristatus/um/a" in their scientific
names. Google knows of both terms for the funny-looking saguaros.

--
Jerry Friedman

Ken Blake

2019-11-27 16:05:46 UTC

Post by Madhu

Post by Ken Blake
Do not trust all docents. I once heard a docent point to a cristate
saguaro and tell a tourist, "that's a crustacean saguaro."

That must be the "crested saguaro"

Yes.

Post by Madhu
- but wherefrom "cristate"?
This brings back memories of the southwest usa. that's some geography
that I actually miss.

Yes. It was in Tucson, Arizona.

Post by Madhu
I think I had Cetaceans confused with Cactaceae for a brief while in my
youfh

--
Ken

RH Draney

2019-11-27 10:02:16 UTC

Post by Ken Blake
Do not trust all docents. I once heard a docent point to a cristate
saguaro and tell a tourist, "that's a crustacean saguaro."

Any kin to the nurse who tried to tell my mother that the "C." in "C.
difficile" stood for "colostrum"?...r

Peter Young

2019-11-27 13:24:09 UTC

Post by Ken Blake
Do not trust all docents. I once heard a docent point to a cristate
saguaro and tell a tourist, "that's a crustacean saguaro."

Any kin to the nurse who tried to tell my mother that the "C." in "C.
difficile" stood for "colostrum"?...r

I've probably said before that my parent's in law were virtuosos at the
art of the Mondegreen. My m-i-l used to cook broccoli and cauliflower
Florence, and my f-i-l used Gypsy Filly in his flower arrangements.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Peter T. Daniels

2019-11-27 15:07:51 UTC

Post by Peter Young
I've probably said before that my parent's in law were virtuosos at the
art of the Mondegreen. My m-i-l used to cook broccoli and cauliflower
Florence, and my f-i-l used Gypsy Filly in his flower arrangements.

Interpretation? Both are obscure to the AmEist.

Peter Young

2019-11-27 15:49:40 UTC

Interpretation? Both are obscure to the AmEist.

Florets and gypsophila respectively.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Peter T. Daniels

2019-11-27 18:26:32 UTC

Interpretation? Both are obscure to the AmEist.

Florets and gypsophila respectively.

Thanks -- "florets" is how those can be sold in the frozen vegetables
department (more expensive than "stems and pieces"), though we don't
really talk about them otherwise, but I don't know what the other one is.

"Florentine" = 'with spinach' didn't seem likely.

Peter Young

2019-11-26 09:45:03 UTC

It used to be the Canyon Diablo Crater, but was renamed after Daniel
Barringer. It's not clear whether Mr Barringer renamed it himself, or
whether it was renamed in his honour.

Post by RH Draney
to decide it needed a name....r

I shouldn't have looked it up. Otherwise, I'd have been able to suggest
that "Barringer" was the sound made by the meteorite's impact.

"It's a good thing that meteor landed where it did and not a mere five
miles to the north...otherwise it would have made a real mess out of
Interstate 40"
-- some docent at the visitor center

At Windsor Castle: "Why did they build it so co lose to the airport?".

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Katy Jennison

2019-11-26 15:06:33 UTC

Post by RH Draney
"It's a good thing that meteor landed where it did and not a mere five
miles to the north...otherwise it would have made a real mess out of
Interstate 40"
-- some docent at the visitor center

At Windsor Castle: "Why did they build it so co lose to the airport?".

An American friend of mine, visiting Oxford and gazing at Magdalen
College (founded 1458): "That ivy on the walls makes it look really old!"

--
Katy Jennison

Richard Heathfield

2019-11-26 15:19:36 UTC

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by RH Draney
"It's a good thing that meteor landed where it did and not a mere five
miles to the north...otherwise it would have made a real mess out of
Interstate 40"
-- some docent at the visitor center

At Windsor Castle: "Why did they build it so co lose to the airport?".

An American friend of mine, visiting Oxford and gazing at Magdalen
College (founded 1458): "That ivy on the walls makes it look really old!"

Another Eavesdropping from Rees's book, if I may. An American tourist,
feeling rather footsore after a two-hour guided tour of Jesus College,
Cambridge: "This is all very well, but when do we get to see the *actual
room*?"

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

John Varela

2019-11-26 20:10:48 UTC

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 15:06:33 UTC, Katy Jennison

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by RH Draney
"It's a good thing that meteor landed where it did and not a mere five
miles to the north...otherwise it would have made a real mess out of
Interstate 40"
-- some docent at the visitor center

At Windsor Castle: "Why did they build it so co lose to the airport?".

An American friend of mine, visiting Oxford and gazing at Magdalen
College (founded 1458): "That ivy on the walls makes it look really old!"

Casa Grande Ruins National Monument in Arizona features the ruins of
a 13th century Amerindian adobe building. The ruin is protected by
a steel and glass roof. I overheard a tourist asking the Park
Ranger if the Indians had built that roof. The Ranger didn't miss a
beat, replying that the Park Service built that roof in 1932.

--
John Varela

Jerry Friedman

2019-11-26 15:01:53 UTC

On 11/26/19 12:59 AM, RH Draney wrote:
...

We provide them with a lot of food, mostly unintentionally. I don't
know how to decide how much they deserve.

--
Jerry Friedman

Kerr-Mudd,John

2019-11-26 11:11:42 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Is "Crater Lake" an arbitrary or descriptive label? There seem to be some
crater lakes.

I note that there are a large number of numerical facts given which are
suspiciously precise, e.g.

In the winter of 1949/1950 as much as 885.1 inches (22.48 m) of snow
fell,

Post by Garrett Wollman
It's an arbitrary label, in the sense that it was deliberately created
*to be a name*, rather than a description that over time came to be
regarded as a proper noun.
In the Klamath language it's called "giiwas" (per the same Wikipedia
article).

It doesn't give the water temperature though.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Garrett Wollman

2019-11-27 17:21:43 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I note that there are a large number of numerical facts given which are
suspiciously precise, e.g.
In the winter of 1949/1950 as much as 885.1 inches (22.48 m) of snow
fell,

Customary precision for official snowfall measurements. That doesn't
mean the accuracy was that good.

-GAWollman

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-11-26 07:46:04 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Garrett Wollman於 2019年11月26日星期二 UTC+8上午1時58分41秒寫道：

Unlike lakes, for all of the examples I can think of, rivers are
arthrous, whether you say "the X River" or just "the X"[1] -- whereas
I think the Great Salt Lake is exceptional in its arthrousness for
lakes (I can't think of another[2]). Oceans and seas are always
arthrous; swamps and marshes might be either, and ponds usually
anarthrous. Streams, creeks, brooks, and other minor watercourses are
generally anarthrous IME.
A lot of this, I suspect, boils down to whether the name was thought
of as an arbitrary label or merely descriptive at the time it was
first standardized. "The Great Salt Lake" could easily have started
out as "the great salt lake in Utah Territory".

Is "Crater Lake" an arbitrary or descriptive label? There seem to be some
crater lakes.

Quite a lot, I expect: it's a very natural way for a lake to be created.

Post by Yurui Liu

--
athel

Peter T. Daniels

2019-11-26 13:43:16 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Is "Crater Lake" an arbitrary or descriptive label? There seem to be some
crater lakes.

Quite a lot, I expect: it's a very natural way for a lake to be created.

Really? English-speakers would say "quite a few."

Have you joined the vanguard in abolishing the count/mass distinction?

s***@gmail.com

2019-11-27 00:44:15 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Is "Crater Lake" an arbitrary or descriptive label? There seem to be some
crater lakes.

Quite a lot, I expect: it's a very natural way for a lake to be created.

Vesuvius and Mauna Loa don't have the right type of pyroclastic flows.
Or rather, they flow instead of blowing their top.
Eventually, of course, they will disconnect from the hotspot in the mantle,
but perhaps not before Yellowstone blows.

Krakatoa, which gave us a preview of nuclear winter,
apparently did have the right type of lava.

/dps

Ken Blake

2019-11-27 16:03:36 UTC

Post by s***@gmail.com

Post by Yurui Liu
Is "Crater Lake" an arbitrary or descriptive label? There seem to be some
crater lakes.

Quite a lot, I expect: it's a very natural way for a lake to be created.

Vesuvius and Mauna Loa don't have the right type of pyroclastic flows.
Or rather, they flow instead of blowing their top.

I don't claim to be anything like an expert on volcanoes, but my
understanding of Vesuvius's eruption in AD79 was that it *did* blow its
top. Pompeii was destroyed not by lava flow, but by being buried in ash.

Post by s***@gmail.com
Eventually, of course, they will disconnect from the hotspot in the mantle,
but perhaps not before Yellowstone blows.
Krakatoa, which gave us a preview of nuclear winter,
apparently did have the right type of lava.
/dps

--
Ken

Adam Funk

2019-11-27 13:22:51 UTC

I've heard people from the relevant region refer to both "Sherando
Lake" & "Lake Sherando". (I don't think it matters for the
nomenclature, but it's a reservoir, like all but two of Virginia's
lakes.)

--
No right of private conversation was enumerated in the Constitution.
I don't suppose it occurred to anyone at the time that it could be
prevented. ---Whitfield Diffie

Spains Harden

2019-11-24 11:58:01 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
I'd like to know whether the definite article should be used before
names of lakes, such as Great Salt Lake, Crater Lake, and Great Slave Lake.
I'd appreciate your help.

I would think "the Crater Lake" is wrong, but you can add "the" to
the others - as a matter of taste. Then you meet the problem we have
with English pub names - should it be The George or the George?

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-11-24 13:56:28 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
I'd like to know whether the definite article should be used before
names of lakes, such as Great Salt Lake, Crater Lake, and Great Slave Lake.
I'd appreciate your help.

I would think "the Crater Lake" is wrong,

Why don't you stick to things you know, though that would limit you a
great deal.

Post by Spains Harden
but you can add "the" to
the others - as a matter of taste. Then you meet the problem we have
with English pub names - should it be The George or the George?

--
athel

Spains Harden

2019-11-24 14:15:41 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
I'd like to know whether the definite article should be used before
names of lakes, such as Great Salt Lake, Crater Lake, and Great Slave Lake.
I'd appreciate your help.

I would think "the Crater Lake" is wrong,

Why don't you stick to things you know, though that would limit you a
great deal.

Very profound. The English language covers the World, athel. There
are people who live close to Crater Lake, there are people who have
never heard of it. The one thing all those people have in common is
that, should they ever need to talk about such things, they have the
rules laid down by which they can appear coherent.

I was robbed at gun-point near Lake George in Tony's neck of the wood,
so I know a bit about lakes and woods.

Peter T. Daniels

2019-11-24 14:49:58 UTC

Post by Spains Harden
I would think "the Crater Lake" is wrong,

That happens to be correct.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Why don't you stick to things you know, though that would limit you a
great deal.

Very profound. The English language covers the World, athel. There
are people who live close to Crater Lake, there are people who have
never heard of it. The one thing all those people have in common is
that, should they ever need to talk about such things, they have the
rules laid down by which they can appear coherent.
I was robbed at gun-point near Lake George in Tony's neck of the wood,
so I know a bit about lakes and woods.

Can _any_ lake whose name puts "Lake" before the specifier take "The"?

I think not.

Spains Harden

2019-11-24 15:16:36 UTC

Post by Spains Harden
I would think "the Crater Lake" is wrong,

That happens to be correct.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Why don't you stick to things you know, though that would limit you a
great deal.

Very profound. The English language covers the World, athel. There
are people who live close to Crater Lake, there are people who have
never heard of it. The one thing all those people have in common is
that, should they ever need to talk about such things, they have the
rules laid down by which they can appear coherent.
I was robbed at gun-point near Lake George in Tony's neck of the wood,
so I know a bit about lakes and woods.

Can _any_ lake whose name puts "Lake" before the specifier take "The"?
I think not.

You are correct which is why I never even hinted at it. If you and
athel read what is written - rather than what you imagine is being
written - you will or would find life less confusing.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-11-24 16:07:43 UTC

Post by Spains Harden
I would think "the Crater Lake" is wrong,

That happens to be correct.

It's correct in the sense that Crater Lake is indeed called Crater
Lake, but 'Arrison was just guessing.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Why don't you stick to things you know, though that would limit you a
great deal.

Very profound. The English language covers the World, athel. There
are people who live close to Crater Lake, there are people who have
never heard of it. The one thing all those people have in common is
that, should they ever need to talk about such things, they have the
rules laid down by which they can appear coherent.
I was robbed at gun-point near Lake George in Tony's neck of the wood,
so I know a bit about lakes and woods.

Can _any_ lake whose name puts "Lake" before the specifier take "The"?
I think not.

You are correct which is why I never even hinted at it. If you and
athel read what is written - rather than what you imagine is being
written - you will or would find life less confusing.

--
athel

Spains Harden

2019-11-24 16:22:31 UTC

Post by Spains Harden
I would think "the Crater Lake" is wrong,

That happens to be correct.

It's correct in the sense that Crater Lake is indeed called Crater
Lake, but 'Arrison was just guessing.

Why thank you athel. When an educated guess gets right (to shudder my
mother down into the depths of her grave), it is fantastic to have it
appreciated.

Peter T. Daniels

2019-11-24 17:09:32 UTC

Post by Spains Harden
Very profound. The English language covers the World, athel. There
are people who live close to Crater Lake, there are people who have
never heard of it. The one thing all those people have in common is
that, should they ever need to talk about such things, they have the
rules laid down by which they can appear coherent.
I was robbed at gun-point near Lake George in Tony's neck of the wood,
so I know a bit about lakes and woods.

Can _any_ lake whose name puts "Lake" before the specifier take "The"?
I think not.

You are correct which is why I never even hinted at it. If you and
athel read what is written - rather than what you imagine is being
written - you will or would find life less confusing.

Then why the mention of Lake George?

Spains Harden

2019-11-24 17:50:44 UTC

Can _any_ lake whose name puts "Lake" before the specifier take "The"?
I think not.

You are correct which is why I never even hinted at it. If you and
athel read what is written - rather than what you imagine is being
written - you will or would find life less confusing.

Then why the mention of Lake George?

athel implies I don't know anything about lakes. I name a random
lake, and you make assumptions about it.

"The Sea of Tranquility" PTD :)

Tony Cooper

2019-11-24 23:25:42 UTC

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 06:15:41 -0800 (PST), Spains Harden

Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
I'd like to know whether the definite article should be used before
names of lakes, such as Great Salt Lake, Crater Lake, and Great Slave Lake.
I'd appreciate your help.

I would think "the Crater Lake" is wrong,

Why don't you stick to things you know, though that would limit you a
great deal.

Very profound. The English language covers the World, athel. There
are people who live close to Crater Lake, there are people who have
never heard of it. The one thing all those people have in common is
that, should they ever need to talk about such things, they have the
rules laid down by which they can appear coherent.
I was robbed at gun-point near Lake George in Tony's neck of the wood,
so I know a bit about lakes and woods.

I do know of Lake George, and - as a matter of fact - I rented a
pontoon boat there last summer for a family outing. It's a huge lake
(second largest in Florida) that's actually a widening of The St
Johns River.

Both "St Johns River" and "The St Johns River" are used, but I've
never seen "The Lake George". No apostrophe in St Johns. The river
has had many names over time, but the name St Johns was given to the
river by Spanish Franciscan missionaries in the late 1600s. That's
"San Juan del Puerto" or "St John of the Harbor".

I surprised you were robbed there. Many of the locals make an
adequate living cooking meth in isolated areas in the nearby Ocala
National Forest. They don't need to resort to armed robbery.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Peter Moylan

2019-11-25 00:44:37 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
I do know of Lake George, and - as a matter of fact - I rented a
pontoon boat there last summer for a family outing. It's a huge
lake (second largest in Florida) that's actually a widening of The
St Johns River.

There's a Lake George near Canberra that's notable for its variability.
Sometimes you'll drive past a long wide lake. At other times there's a
puddle of water in the distance, and sheep are grazing on the "lake". It
depends on the rainfall, of course.

I once drove a Chinese visitor from Canberra to Newcastle. For the first
part of the trip he just looked at the scenery, which was
understandable. Then he asked "Where are all the crops?" I explained
that there wasn't enough water in that part of the country to grow
crops. I don't think he believed me.

There is, I am told, a widespread belief in China that Australia is big
enough to fit a few hundred million people more. That's true - but only
if they bring their own food and water.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Richard Heathfield

2019-11-25 02:18:53 UTC

On 25/11/2019 00:44, Peter Moylan wrote:

<snip>

Post by Peter Moylan
There is, I am told, a widespread belief in China that Australia is big
enough to fit a few hundred million people more. That's true - but only
if they bring their own food and water.

Perhaps China is playing a long game: maybe the idea is to persuade
their people that Australia would be handy for a bit of lebensraum
(possibly involving a scuffle), but what they're really after is Olympic
Dam, possibly the world's largest uranium deposit and certainly the
second-largest producer (at around 4,000 tonnes of yellowcake per annum).

Or am I being unduly cynical?

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Peter Moylan

2019-11-25 03:36:12 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
There is, I am told, a widespread belief in China that Australia is
big enough to fit a few hundred million people more. That's true -
but only if they bring their own food and water.

Perhaps China is playing a long game: maybe the idea is to persuade
their people that Australia would be handy for a bit of lebensraum
(possibly involving a scuffle), but what they're really after is
Olympic Dam, possibly the world's largest uranium deposit and
certainly the second-largest producer (at around 4,000 tonnes of
yellowcake per annum).
Or am I being unduly cynical?

It's always hard to tell with the Chinese government. A current item of
news here is the allegation that a Liberal Party member was offered a
million dollars to run a campaign to get into parliament and act as a
spy for China. We don't know much more, because he was found dead
after he told someone about it.

At the same time, someone else has just broken cover, claiming to be a
spy for China and asking for political asylum in return for information.
The Chinese government is saying he's not a spy at all, but a criminal
who is trying to escape from China. The Australian government is not
saying whether precautions against assassination are being taken.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Mark Brader

2019-11-25 04:40:56 UTC

What? What? Everyone knows, Lake George is in New York state.
It's about 30 miles long, and closer than that to Lake Champlain,
which it drains into via the La Chute River.

--
Mark Brader | "Design an idiot-proof system, and the universe
Toronto | will spontaneously evolve a higher grade of idiot
***@vex.net | that is able to circumvent it."

b***@shaw.ca

2019-11-25 04:54:07 UTC

Post by Mark Brader

What? What? Everyone knows, Lake George is in New York state.
It's about 30 miles long, and closer than that to Lake Champlain,
which it drains into via the La Chute River.

Even so:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lake George, New York may refer to:

Lake George (New York), a lake
Lake George (town), New York, a town
Lake George (village), New York, a village within the town and situated next to the lake

Not to be confused with East Lake George, New York.

bill

Mark Brader

2019-11-25 07:27:52 UTC

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia...

But what fun is that?

--
Mark Brader | "I'd spell creat with an e."
Toronto | --Ken Thompson, when asked what he'd
***@vex.net | change if he was redesigning UNIX

RH Draney

2019-11-25 07:47:00 UTC

Post by b***@shaw.ca
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lake George (New York), a lake
Lake George (town), New York, a town
Lake George (village), New York, a village within the town and situated next to the lake
Not to be confused with East Lake George, New York.

Nor with:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lake_(footballer)

....r

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-11-25 07:46:09 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
[ … ]
I once drove a Chinese visitor from Canberra to Newcastle. For the first
part of the trip he just looked at the scenery, which was
understandable. Then he asked "Where are all the crops?" I explained
that there wasn't enough water in that part of the country to grow
crops. I don't think he believed me.

We have a friend who is French but whose wife was originally Russian.
He hates to fly anywhere, so when they went to China they took their
car, driving across the vast expanse of the USSR. When they crossed the
border into China they were struck by the fact that every square
centimetre of land on the Chinese side was being used to grow things,
whereas on the Russian side there was nothing but a near desert. The
Russian wife's interpretation was that the Russians were too lazy to do
the work needed to grow crops there.

--
athel

Kerr-Mudd,John

2019-11-25 11:22:46 UTC

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 07:46:09 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden

[ âŠ ]
I once drove a Chinese visitor from Canberra to Newcastle. For the first
part of the trip he just looked at the scenery, which was
understandable. Then he asked "Where are all the crops?" I explained
that there wasn't enough water in that part of the country to grow
crops. I don't think he believed me.

That's some trek!

Qoqek? (possible)
or
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungarian_Gate
(less likely)

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
border into China they were struck by the fact that every square
centimetre of land on the Chinese side was being used to grow things,
whereas on the Russian side there was nothing but a near desert. The
Russian wife's interpretation was that the Russians were too lazy to do
the work needed to grow crops there.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Richard Heathfield

2019-11-25 11:35:52 UTC

On 25/11/2019 11:22, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:

<snip>

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
That's some trek!
Qoqek? (possible)

I may have been Usenetting too long. My immediate instinct was to assume
that the above was ROT-13d... but it came out as Dbdrx.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Peter Moylan

2019-11-25 00:34:29 UTC

Post by Spains Harden
I would think "the Crater Lake" is wrong, but you can add "the" to
the others - as a matter of taste. Then you meet the problem we have
with English pub names - should it be The George or the George?

English pub names seem to be a lot more colourful than their Australian
equivalents. According to a list I just looked up, the most common hotel
names are Royal, Commercial, Club, Grand, and Central. In small towns
the hotel name is just the name of the town, as in Tallarook Hotel. Then
you get names like the Junction Hotel or the Northern Hotel, whose
origin is pretty obvious.

The nearest pub to me is called the Iron Horse Inn. I see that it was
originally called the Royal Hotel. I suppose the name was changed when
the railway came through, but I can't get any confirmation of that.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Kerr-Mudd,John

2019-11-25 11:46:21 UTC

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 00:34:29 GMT, Peter Moylan

English pub names seem to be a lot more colourful than their Australian
equivalents. According to a list I just looked up, the most common hotel
names are Royal, Commercial, Club, Grand, and Central. In small towns
the hotel name is just the name of the town, as in Tallarook Hotel. Then
you get names like the Junction Hotel or the Northern Hotel, whose
origin is pretty obvious.
The nearest pub to me is called the Iron Horse Inn. I see that it was
originally called the Royal Hotel. I suppose the name was changed when
the railway came through, but I can't get any confirmation of that.

We get a lot of 'Red Lion's, '[Rose and] Crown's but 'New Inn' is almost
as boring.

Sadly the localish 'Tippling Philosopher' is no more.
There's one in Dorset though.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Richard Heathfield

2019-11-25 12:07:38 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 00:34:29 GMT, Peter Moylan

English pub names seem to be a lot more colourful than their Australian
equivalents. According to a list I just looked up, the most common

hotel

Post by Peter Moylan
names are Royal, Commercial, Club, Grand, and Central. In small towns
the hotel name is just the name of the town, as in Tallarook Hotel.

Then

Post by Peter Moylan
you get names like the Junction Hotel or the Northern Hotel, whose
origin is pretty obvious.
The nearest pub to me is called the Iron Horse Inn. I see that it was
originally called the Royal Hotel. I suppose the name was changed when
the railway came through, but I can't get any confirmation of that.

We get a lot of 'Red Lion's, '[Rose and] Crown's but 'New Inn' is almost
as boring.
Sadly the localish 'Tippling Philosopher' is no more.
There's one in Dorset though.

There are *thousands* of quirky, picturesque, or just plain odd English
pub names.

I offer just a few examples from my own peregrinations around the
taverns and hostelries of this green and pleasant land, this sceptred
isle, this precious stone set in the silver sea:

Oxford delights in the "Eagle and Child" and the "Lamb and Flag", both
of which are old Tolkien watering holes.

Sheffield has the "Frog and Parrot" and "The Fat Cat" (the latter being
a real ale pub that taught me, in a somewhat colourful fashion, the
difference between Students' Union cider and actual cider - I was
halfway down the fourth pint when the first pint hit).

Gloucester boasts the "Welsh Harp" (don't bother), the "Fountain"
(bother!), and of course the "Double Gloucester".

And Northampton has the "White Elephant", next to the Racecourse and
originally a hotel for racegoers, renamed "White Elephant" when the
Racecourse was closed in the early 1900s.

One of my favourite pub names (and one that appears in at least three
English towns - Leeds, Liverpool, and Durham) is "The Library", which
I'm told is a mechanism for allowing students to claim, on being asked
to explain an absence, to reply in all honesty "I was in the library".

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Peter Young

2019-11-25 15:53:53 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 00:34:29 GMT, Peter Moylan

English pub names seem to be a lot more colourful than their Australian
equivalents. According to a list I just looked up, the most common

hotel

Post by Peter Moylan
names are Royal, Commercial, Club, Grand, and Central. In small towns
the hotel name is just the name of the town, as in Tallarook Hotel.

Then

We get a lot of 'Red Lion's, '[Rose and] Crown's but 'New Inn' is almost
as boring.
Sadly the localish 'Tippling Philosopher' is no more.
There's one in Dorset though.

Colloquially "The Fowl and Fetus".

Post by Richard Heathfield
and the "Lamb and Flag", both of which are old Tolkien watering holes.
Sheffield has the "Frog and Parrot" and "The Fat Cat" (the latter being
a real ale pub that taught me, in a somewhat colourful fashion, the
difference between Students' Union cider and actual cider - I was
halfway down the fourth pint when the first pint hit).
Gloucester boasts the "Welsh Harp" (don't bother), the "Fountain"
(bother!), and of course the "Double Gloucester".

And of course, "The New Inn", dating from 1450.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Richard Heathfield

2019-11-25 16:10:53 UTC

<snip>

Post by Richard Heathfield
Gloucester boasts the "Welsh Harp" (don't bother), the "Fountain"
(bother!), and of course the "Double Gloucester".

And of course, "The New Inn", dating from 1450.

Indeed. A very pleasant atmosphere (in the 1980s and early 1990s), and
IIRC a rather ancient conveyance in the courtyard - either a late
horse-drawn or early horseless carriage. Is it still there, by any
chance, or has the place now been <cough> "improved"?

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Peter Young

2019-11-25 17:05:11 UTC

Post by Richard Heathfield
Gloucester boasts the "Welsh Harp" (don't bother), the "Fountain"
(bother!), and of course the "Double Gloucester".

And of course, "The New Inn", dating from 1450.

It's still there, and largely unchanged for at least 45 years. but on a
couple of visits my f.w.i.a.l. and I weren't over-impressed by the food.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Richard Heathfield

2019-11-25 17:27:30 UTC

Post by Richard Heathfield
Gloucester boasts the "Welsh Harp" (don't bother), the "Fountain"
(bother!), and of course the "Double Gloucester".

And of course, "The New Inn", dating from 1450.

It's still there, and largely unchanged for at least 45 years.

It's good to know that some things never change...

Post by Peter Young
but on a
couple of visits my f.w.i.a.l. and I weren't over-impressed by the food.

...and not so good to know that some things never change.

Even so, my memories are fond ones, although thinking back I have to
confess that they are mostly negative:

No lager louts
No drug addicts (or at least none in evidence)
No ghastly music
No raucous electronic casinos
(etc).

Sometimes, negative memories are quite positive!

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

Peter Young

2019-11-25 20:01:33 UTC

Post by Richard Heathfield
Gloucester boasts the "Welsh Harp" (don't bother), the "Fountain"
(bother!), and of course the "Double Gloucester".

And of course, "The New Inn", dating from 1450.

It's still there, and largely unchanged for at least 45 years.

It's good to know that some things never change...

Post by Peter Young
but on a
couple of visits my f.w.i.a.l. and I weren't over-impressed by the food.

...and not so good to know that some things never change.
Even so, my memories are fond ones, although thinking back I have to
No lager louts
No drug addicts (or at least none in evidence)
No ghastly music
No raucous electronic casinos
(etc).

We've not been there for some time, but I think that's still true.

Post by Richard Heathfield
Sometimes, negative memories are quite positive!

Indeed!

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

Spains Harden

2019-11-25 16:26:39 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 00:34:29 GMT, Peter Moylan

English pub names seem to be a lot more colourful than their Australian
equivalents. According to a list I just looked up, the most common

hotel

Post by Peter Moylan
names are Royal, Commercial, Club, Grand, and Central. In small towns
the hotel name is just the name of the town, as in Tallarook Hotel.

Then

We get a lot of 'Red Lion's, '[Rose and] Crown's but 'New Inn' is almost
as boring.
Sadly the localish 'Tippling Philosopher' is no more.
There's one in Dorset though.

Colloquially "The Fowl and Fetus".

And of course, "The New Inn", dating from 1450.

Our local "New Inn" dates merely from the 18th Century - but "New"
does seem to very often signify "extremely old". The New Castle
in the North of England:

"The city developed around the Roman settlement Pons Aelius and was
named after the castle built in 1080 by Robert Curthose, William the
Conqueror's eldest son".

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcastle_upon_Tyne>

charles

2019-11-25 16:41:52 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 00:34:29 GMT, Peter Moylan

English pub names seem to be a lot more colourful than their Australian
equivalents. According to a list I just looked up, the most common

hotel

Post by Peter Moylan
names are Royal, Commercial, Club, Grand, and Central. In small towns
the hotel name is just the name of the town, as in Tallarook Hotel.

Then

We get a lot of 'Red Lion's, '[Rose and] Crown's but 'New Inn' is almost
as boring.
Sadly the localish 'Tippling Philosopher' is no more.
There's one in Dorset though.

Colloquially "The Fowl and Fetus".

And of course, "The New Inn", dating from 1450.

Near what was my office in central London was the "Horse & Groom", but, for
some unknown reason, our department always called it the "Frog & Nightgown".
It was used for birthday drinks.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Ian Jackson

2019-11-25 21:31:09 UTC

Post by charles
Near what was my office in central London was the "Horse & Groom", but, for
some unknown reason, our department always called it the "Frog & Nightgown".
It was used for birthday drinks.

IIRC, that is the name of the pub sometimes mentioned in the 1950s/60s
BBC radio comedy programme, "Take It From Here". I had always thought it
was something contrived, but I see from Google that there actually are
some real pubs of that name. But is it a case of chicken and egg?

--
Ian

Ian Jackson

2019-11-25 21:37:53 UTC

IIRC, that is the name of the pub sometimes mentioned in the 1950s/60s
BBC radio comedy programme, "Take It From Here". I had always thought
it was something contrived, but I see from Google that there actually
are some real pubs of that name. But is it a case of chicken and egg?

Correction. It was "Ray's A Laugh" (see #9).
<https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-top-10-fictional-pubs-a7585896.
html>

--
Ian

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2019-11-26 07:43:44 UTC

IIRC, that is the name of the pub sometimes mentioned in the 1950s/60s
BBC radio comedy programme, "Take It From Here".

Oh Ron...

Post by Ian Jackson
I had always thought it was something contrived, but I see from Google
that there actually are some real pubs of that name. But is it a case
of chicken and egg?

Correction. It was "Ray's A Laugh" (see #9).
<https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-top-10-fictional-pubs-a7585896.
html>

--
athel

Sam Plusnet

2019-11-26 19:19:53 UTC

IIRC, that is the name of the pub sometimes mentioned in the
1950s/60s BBC radio comedy programme, "Take It From Here".

Oh Ron...

A young June Whitfield, quite a long time before her Ab Fab days.

--
Sam Plusnet

Horace LaBadie

2019-11-24 13:00:36 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
I'd like to know whether the definite article should be used before
names of lakes, such as Great Salt Lake, Crater Lake, and Great Slave Lake.
I'd appreciate your help.

Usage varies by the body of water. Some accept or require the article,
and some do not. The Great Salt Lake is the one of those three that
would accept it.

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2019-11-24 15:33:34 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
I'd like to know whether the definite article should be used before
names of lakes, such as Great Salt Lake, Crater Lake, and Great Slave Lake.
I'd appreciate your help.

Usage varies by the body of water. Some accept or require the article,
and some do not. The Great Salt Lake is the one of those three that
would accept it.

I've heard of those lakes but know nothing about them, so I went to
Wikipedia.

Great Salt Lake - "The" or "the" is used throughout:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Salt_Lake

Great Slave Lake - "The Great Slave Lake" is used in the first sentence,
after that no "The" or "the":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Slave_Lake

Crater Lake - "The" or "the" is not used in the name of the lake[1]:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crater_Lake

[1] There are mentions of "the Crater Lake National Park" and "the
Crater Lake Lodge". One of the references is to "Eruptive history and
geochronology of Mount Mazama and the Crater Lake region, Oregon" in the
Geological Society of America Bulletin.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Jerry Friedman

2019-11-24 21:10:30 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
I'd like to know whether the definite article should be used before
names of lakes, such as Great Salt Lake, Crater Lake, and Great Slave Lake.
I'd appreciate your help.

Usage varies by the body of water. Some accept or require the article,
and some do not. The Great Salt Lake is the one of those three that
would accept it.

Three? What are the other two?

--
Jerry Friedman

Richard Heathfield

2019-11-24 21:20:37 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
I'd like to know whether the definite article should be used before
names of lakes, such as Great Salt Lake, Crater Lake, and Great Slave Lake.
I'd appreciate your help.

Usage varies by the body of water. Some accept or require the article,
and some do not. The Great Salt Lake is the one of those three that
would accept it.

Three? What are the other two?

The Great Mustard Lake and the Great Vinegar Lake.

Unfortunately, Great Pepper Lake could not be reached for comment before
we went to press.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

musika

2019-11-24 23:07:27 UTC

Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
I'd like to know whether the definite article should be used before
names of lakes, such as Great Salt Lake, Crater Lake, and Great Slave Lake.
I'd appreciate your help.

Usage varies by the body of water. Some accept or require the article,
and some do not. The Great Salt Lake is the one of those three that
would accept it.

Three? What are the other two?

Them up there.
Great Salt Lake, Crater Lake, and Great Slave Lake.

--
Ray
UK

Jerry Friedman

2019-11-24 23:28:01 UTC

Post by musika