[slim] Tidal Hi-Resolution Streams available on ickStream, soon for all Squeezebox users!

[remd]

Tidal a service provided by Aspiro (WiMP) has launched in the UK and the
US today and many more countries should follow.
The service is already available on the Squeezebox for ickStream beta
users, and we will open it to all Squeezebox users soon.

Tidal:
http://www.tidalhifi.com
In the News:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/tidal-high-fidelity-music-streaming-service-launches-today-280633162.html

We will post an update on here soon, so stay tuned !


The ickStream Team



Interested in the future of music streaming ? www.ickStream.com - A
world of music at your fingertips.
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[dafiend]

If you're affiliated with Tidal, you should feel ashamed off yourself.
Audiophool nonsense is what's in the videos.


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[amey01]

Great, great news! :)


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[cca651]

This is indeed great news - I signed up for the trial yesterday and the
sound quality very good (worth the price for me). Can't wait to be able
to stream via my Squeezebox devices!


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[placebo]

Does anyone know if 'all Squeezebox users' includes us Duet dinosaurs?


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[remd]

placebo wrote:
> Does anyone know if 'all Squeezebox users' includes us Duet dinosaurs?

Yes it will also include ip3k players - Boom, sb3, Duet etc..



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[Mnyb]

remd wrote:
> Yes it will also include ip3k players - Boom, sb3, Duet etc..

Good timing to lauch your own service btw , but OT is there any overview
how this integration of LMS/squeezebox system with ickstream works in
practice ? really hands on . I've seen you blogs but they are not so
specific . Is there instruction on the way on how to proceed with this ?



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[remd]

Mnyb wrote:
> Good timing to lauch your own service btw , but OT is there any overview
> how this integration of LMS/squeezebox system with ickstream works in
> practice ? really hands on . I've seen you blogs but they are not so
> specific . Is there instruction on the way on how to proceed with this ?

Thanks - Regarding how to use ickStream on the Squeezebox, it's a pretty
simple process. We'll provide the instructions when we release the
service.



Interested in the future of music streaming ? www.ickStream.com - A
world of music at your fingertips.
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[mintaudio]

Mnyb wrote:
> Good timing to lauch your own service btw , but OT is there any overview
> how this integration of LMS/squeezebox system with ickstream works in
> practice ? really hands on . I've seen you blogs but they are not so
> specific . Is there instruction on the way on how to proceed with this ?

ickstream is a bit of an enigma.. I'm not entirely sure if this is
deliberate or just overly obscure marketing. I've even had contact from
one of the team at one point asking if we'd be interested in developing
with ickstream and to be honest - I still have little idea what it
does!
One assumes it works with streaming media, but solely? and with which
providers? It is just a platform or a complete product?


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[pippin]

mintaudio wrote:
> ickstream is a bit of an enigma.. I'm not entirely sure if this is
> deliberate or just overly obscure marketing. I've even had contact from
> one of the team at one point asking if we'd be interested in developing
> with ickstream and to be honest - I still have little idea what it
> does!
> One assumes it works with streaming media, but solely? and with which
> providers? It is just a platform or a complete product?

It's probably because it's been a looong time since we had that contact
and we have had our share of realignments, too.

Now... first of all: what is "a complete product"? If by that you mean
hardware, then no, it's a platform.

What ickStream does now is essentially two things:

1. It's a backend system to integrate streaming media services under one
single API. A bit like MySqueezebox.com but content aware and designed
for scaleability. This is what we will use in the public beta to allow
Squeezebox users to support TIDAL (and a number of other services not
yet available for the SBs or poorly supported on SBs). For the SBs in
this case it will work through a plugin for LMS.

2. It's a client-side platform allowing hardware vendors to build
streaming hardware. In this respect it's a bit different from the
Squeezebox system in that it has less reliance of a central server. The
plugin in 1. will support this functionality, too (essentially exporting
a Squeezebox as an ickStream player). And if you use this functionality,
you can support both local and online sources.

The libraries for 2. are open source under a BSD-type license and can
already now be found on our GitHub page.

We started primarily with 2. but actually these days 1. has become more
important, this has caused a bit of a delay and probably confusion.

As for Squeezebox support... our closed beta currently also has clients
for our own player model (2.) for Squeezebox Touch and Radio so that
these Squeezeboxes could then use the services ickStream provides even
without LMS running but for the launch of the public beta we don't
regard that as stable enough to launch it into the wild.



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[atrocity]

cca651 wrote:
> This is indeed great news - I signed up for the trial yesterday and the
> sound quality is very good (worth the price for me). Can't wait to be
> able to stream via my Squeezebox devices!

I signed up for a 30 day trial yesterday myself. I don't know if they
were just having problems or if the system is fundamentally flawed, but
in my testing I found that they take lack of gapless playback to an
extreme I've never heard before. If that's really how it's going to be,
there's no way I'm paying.


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[Corelli45]

Hi remd,

I run a Vortexbox as server and player and would like to try this
service. I would like to take advantage of the 30 day Tidal trial but
I'm concerned that your service will not be available
in time for the Sept 4 deadline. Is it likely that The service will be
available before Tuesday?




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[remd]

Corelli45 wrote:
> Hi remd,
>
> I run a Vortexbox as server and player and would like to try this
> service. I would like to take advantage of the 30 day Tidal trial but
> I'm concerned that your service will not be available
> in time for the Sept 4 deadline. Is it likely that The service will be
> available before Tuesday?

Currently only ickStream beta testers under NDA have access to Tidal,
you'll have to wait a bit before it is available to all Squeezebox
users.
Tidal seems to offer a 7 day trial, that may be a bit short for
ickStream to be available. If you just started a 30 day trial, you
should be fine..



Interested in the future of music streaming ? www.ickStream.com - A
world of music at your fingertips.
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[Furry]

For Tidal subscriptions:

$19.99 = £19.99 (i.e. not £12.50).

Apparently, $1 = £1. Again.

I'm sure there must be a perfectly reasonable explanation.



Living room: SB Touch, Audiolab 8000A (c1985) + TDL RTL3 speakers.
Dining room: SB Boom.
Kitchen: SB Radio 1/3, with battery.
Bedroom 1: SB Radio 2/3, no battery.
Bedroom 2: SB3, AE 2.1. speakers.
Bedroom 3: Slim Devices SB3, Edirol MA-15D powered monitors.
Bathroom: SB Radio 3/3 (in white), with (and running on) battery.
LMS v7.8.0 on WHS 2011 running on HP Proliant N40L (1.5GHz, 8GB).
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[Warren]

Easy way round this is to use a VPN and sign up via the US site = £12
per month.

Also I have noticed that when you sign up for Tidal they offer a 7 day
free trial. If you replace 7 in the URL with 30 you are then offered a
30 day trial!


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[Furry]

Warren wrote:
> Also I have noticed that when you sign up for Tidal they offer a 7 day
> free trial. If you replace 7 in the URL with 30 you are then offered a
> 30 day trial!

Tried that, but it didn't work - got a sign-on page missing the
7d/£19.99 stuff, then the next page produced a 404 error.



Living room: SB Touch, Audiolab 8000A (c1985) + TDL RTL3 speakers.
Dining room: SB Boom.
Kitchen: SB Radio 1/3, with battery.
Bedroom 1: SB Radio 2/3, no battery.
Bedroom 2: SB3, AE 2.1. speakers.
Bedroom 3: Slim Devices SB3, Edirol MA-15D powered monitors.
Bathroom: SB Radio 3/3 (in white), with (and running on) battery.
LMS v7.8.0 on WHS 2011 running on HP Proliant N40L (1.5GHz, 8GB).
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[Furry]

Warren wrote:
> Also I have noticed that when you sign up for Tidal they offer a 7 day
> free trial. If you replace 7 in the URL with 30 you are then offered a
> 30 day trial!

Tried this, but all it does is create an account without a subscription.



Living room: SB Touch, Audiolab 8000A (c1985) + TDL RTL3 speakers.
Dining room: SB Boom.
Kitchen: SB Radio 1/3, with battery.
Bedroom 1: SB Radio 2/3, no battery.
Bedroom 2: SB3, AE 2.1. speakers.
Bedroom 3: Slim Devices SB3, Edirol MA-15D powered monitors.
Bathroom: SB Radio 3/3 (in white), with (and running on) battery.
LMS v7.8.0 on WHS 2011 running on HP Proliant N40L (1.5GHz, 8GB).
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[local.bin]

Furry wrote:
> For Tidal subscriptions: $19.99 = £19.99 (i.e. not £12.50); apparently,
> Tidal believe $1 = £1.
>
> Subscription for UK actually $32.
>
> I'm sure there must be a perfectly reasonable explanation.

There is: Greed :)


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[crystalgipsy]

I tried the 7 day trial and honestly could really not tell the
difference between their 320 aac stream and the hifi flac one using very
good quality headphones. Same goes for me when I compare my own 320kp
files to the cd original on my system I hear no difference and I have a
pretty good system. Waste of money if you ask me placebo effect. Saying
that I am up to try it again once its available through my squeezebox as
I can then compare like for like more accurately.


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[Man in a van]

Corelli45 wrote:
> Hi remd,
>
> I run a Vortexbox as server and player and would like to try this
> service. I would like to take advantage of the 30 day Tidal trial but
> I'm concerned that your service will not be available
> in time for the Sept 4 deadline. Is it likely that The service will be
> available before Tuesday?


:confused: have the crystals started to break up, Scotty? ;) :)


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[pippin]

Man in a van wrote:
> :confused: have the crystals started to break up, Scotty? ;) :)

What remco wants to say is: if you already started a 7-day trial it will
be tough.
If you start a 30 day trial by Monday or Tuesday you'll probably be able
to use most of that already with ickStream on your Squeezebox.



---
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and
Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
at penguinlovesmusic.com
*New: iPeng 8, the Universal App for iOS 7 and iOS 8*
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[Corelli45]

Thank you. I'll start the 30 day trial after the weekend. Looking
forward to what you have to offer.




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[Corelli45]

Back to your van, man.




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[Corelli45]

Thanks Pippin. That's the answer I was looking for.




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[Corelli45]

Its interesting. I find the difference between Spotify and Qobuz very
obvious. I played some tracks this afternoon and a friend, who is not
massively into hifi, heard the differences immediately. He found the
Qobuz sound generally more open with greater ambient detail. He said
Spotify sounded more closed in compared to the cd quality stream. These
have been my observations also. I'm surprised that Tidal hifi quality
doesn't sound different.




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[mdconnelly]

Actually, I agree.... To my ears, Tidal does sound better than Spotify
when set on the HiFi setting (lossless). Is that lossless vs Spotify's
320 mp3 streaming? I don't know. I have compared hires mp3 to lossless
before and didn't hear as much difference as I do between Spotify and
Tidal. I was kind of hoping that wouldn't be true because I like
Spotify. FWIW, I am listening with very good headphones and DAC (Senn
HD600s and a iFi Micro iDSD DAC/amp). If I was listening with earbuds
out of my iphone jack, I doubt I'd hear any difference.

Be that as it may, so far I'm quite impressed with Tidal. Of course,
I'm still in the trial period and haven't yet decided to subscribe at
$20/month. Jury is still out but it is compelling. I am hoping that
we get a peak at ickStream before the Tidal trial runs out. Without
being able to stream Tidal through my Squeezeboxen, it has far less
appeal.



Mike (1 SB3, 1 Duet, 1 Boom, 2 Touch, & heavy use of iPeng on various
iThings)
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[erland]

mdconnelly wrote:
> I am hoping that we get a peak at ickStream before the Tidal trial runs
> out. Without being able to stream Tidal through my Squeezeboxen, it has
> far less appeal.
>
Make sure you have registered your interest as beta tester on our web
site http://www.ickstream.com if you are interested to try it.



Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets (both free and commercial)'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland).
If you like to encourage future presence on this forum and/or third
party plugin/applet development, 'consider purchasing some plugins'
(http://license.isaksson.info))

*Interested in the future of music streaming ? 'ickStream - A world of
music at your fingertips'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?98467-Pre-Announcement-ickStream&p=743516)*.
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[Corelli45]

mdconnelly wrote:
> Actually, I agree.... To my ears, Tidal does sound better than Spotify
> when set on the HiFi setting (lossless). Is that lossless vs Spotify's
> 320 mp3 streaming? I don't know. I have compared hires mp3 to lossless
> before and didn't hear as much difference as I do between Spotify and
> Tidal. I was kind of hoping that wouldn't be true because I like
> Spotify. FWIW, I am listening with very good headphones and DAC (Senn
> HD600s and a iFi Micro iDSD DAC/amp). If I was listening with earbuds
> out of my iphone jack, I doubt I'd hear any difference.
>
> Be that as it may, so far I'm quite impressed with Tidal. Of course,
> I'm still in the trial period and haven't yet decided to subscribe at
> $20/month. Jury is still out but it is compelling. I am hoping that
> we get a peak at ickStream before the Tidal trial runs out. Without
> being able to stream Tidal through my Squeezeboxen, it has far less
> appeal.

My father in law listens to the two services through a
Devialet800/Martin Logan combination. The difference is even more
obvious through his equipment. He's made many comparisons and chooses
Qobuz just about every time. He still loves Spotify for its range and
reliability.




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[garym]

Corelli45 wrote:
> My father in law listens to the two services through a
> Devialet800/Martin Logan combination. The difference is even more
> obvious through his equipment. He's made many comparisons and chooses
> Qobuz just about every time. He still loves Spotify for its range and
> reliability.

Many have pointed out there may be some odd "compression" or something
with spotify tracks, so this identified difference is very plausible
(where in other circumstances it should be rare to be able to ABX a high
bitrate lossy file from a lossless file, particularly when one can be
sure of the provenance of both files, preferably a lossy file created
from the lossless file).



*Location 1:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* several Touch, Radio, SB3
*Controllers:* iPhone4S & iPad2 (iPeng7 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
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[pippin]

Qobuz also has mastering with less dynamics compression. I still have to
test TIDAL about this.



---
learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox
and
Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
at penguinlovesmusic.com
*New: iPeng 8, the Universal App for iOS 7 and iOS 8*
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[Corelli45]

I was interested in testing Tidal but I'm now unsure as to whether the
classical and jazz selection is as good as Qobuz.




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[CommanderROR]

Wimp HiFi/Tifal should have at least the same number of tracks in that
section. I listen exclusively to classical/film music and have found the
section to be pretty much equal on all platforms. Qobuz used to be
pretty bad when it came to searching though, can't say whether that has
changed for the better.
What I'm not sure about is the sound quality. While the differences
between Wimp HiFi and Spotify were not audible for me, Qobuz did sound
quite a bit better on some of my test tracks, giving the music some of
it's aroma back, making brass sound more brassy and stuff like that.
Subtle, but noticeable.

@ickstream

Will you have an "official" Qobuz Plugin as well? Michael made one that
runs on LMS and it's OK, but there is always room for improvement... ;)


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[pippin]

Yes, we will include Qobuz, too, with the ickStream open beta.



---
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and
Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
at penguinlovesmusic.com
*New: iPeng 8, the Universal App for iOS 7 and iOS 8*
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[crystalgipsy]

For the record I was trying Tidals 320kps aac stream to their own Hifi
one and not to other services and could not tell the difference at all
which may be a good or a bad thing depending on your point of view.
Paying £20 per month I expect a major difference from compressed to
lossless.

I have compared it with Spotify and there is a difference not massive
though. I do find that Spotify always sounds different to everything
else. I prefer to use Google Play these days as its recommendations and
random playlists are so much better. Also I think it sounds better than
spotify, cant compare to tidal now as sub has expired. I just think for
most listening Google suffices and is a good price considering it can
house 20000 of my own songs as well. Tidal is just too much to pay for
not enough difference.

I also test my own compressed files to the originals and lossless
encodes and cant really discern a difference. May be years of going to
loud gigs and age have taken there toll on my hearing.


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[Corelli45]

crystalgipsy wrote:
> For the record I was trying Tidals 320kps aac stream to their own Hifi
> one and not to other services and could not tell the difference at all
> which may be a good or a bad thing depending on your point of view.
> Paying £20 per month I expect a major difference from compressed to
> lossless.
>
> I have compared it with Spotify and there is a difference not massive
> though. I do find that Spotify always sounds different to everything
> else. I prefer to use Google Play these days as its recommendations and
> random playlists are so much better. Also I think it sounds better than
> spotify, cant compare to tidal now as sub has expired. I just think for
> most listening Google suffices and is a good price considering it can
> house 20000 of my own songs as well. Tidal is just too much to pay for
> not enough difference.
>
> I also test my own compressed files to the originals and lossless
> encodes and cant really discern a difference. May be years of going to
> loud gigs and age have taken there toll on my hearing.

I must check Tidal out if this is the case.




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[pippin]

TIDAL has non-FLAC streams???? I mean: WiMP has, but I thought TIDAL is
FLAC only?



---
learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox
and
Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
at penguinlovesmusic.com
*New: iPeng 8, the Universal App for iOS 7 and iOS 8*
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[mdconnelly]

pippin wrote:
> TIDAL has non-FLAC streams???? I mean: WiMP has, but I thought TIDAL is
> FLAC only?

My understanding is that while everything in Tidal is available as
lossless (they call it HiFi), their content can be streamed as lossy as
well which is actually useful when streaming over a poor connection. I
have had cases where the Tidal lossless would drop out occasionally.



Mike (1 SB3, 1 Duet, 1 Boom, 2 Touch, & heavy use of iPeng on various
iThings)
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[CommanderROR]

Wimp AAC should be pretty good quality already. Sadly it's not on
Squeezebox, here you get 256kbit mp3 which really is an audible
difference.

My main issue with Wimp Hifi is that I pay double, but many tracks get
streamed as 256kbit mp3. That's not acceptable. They claim to have a
full FLAC library, but sadly this is not true. If I do a random playlist
(via SmartMix) I get between 30 and 50% tracks as mp3 instead of FLAC. I
listen to classical music, and here the difference is especially
painful. I'm still hoping Wimp/Tidal AAC streams will come to LMS
eventually.


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[Peiter]

pippin wrote:
> TIDAL has non-FLAC streams???? I mean: WiMP has, but I thought TIDAL is
> FLAC only?

I'm almost certain that TIDAL and WiMP share the same music files as
streaming source.


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[pippin]

I have to admit that since you mentioned it I've seen an MP3 stream with
TIDAL on at least one occasion, too. It just surprised me since I
thought that they advertise to have everything in FLAC.



---
learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox
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[CommanderROR]

They advertise that their entire catalogue is FLAC, but their CS is
aware of the large gaps. The stupid thing is, they are not fixing it. I
reported a couple of Albums that are only mp3 at the beginning of this
year, and they're still mp3...


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[Peiter]

I'm considering writing an email to WiMP and ask them to get the catalog
fully updated in FLAC and ask them to give me a date for when the
catalog is updated. If WiMP can not meet the date they need to know they
may be using false marketing. Is it too much to ask?


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[dschamis]

Anyone have an ETA of TIDAL for Squeezebox Touch?


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[pippin]

Do you mean through the LMS plugin or the applet solution without the
server?
The former will come soonish...



---
learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox
and
Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
at penguinlovesmusic.com
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[dschamis]

pippin wrote:
> Do you mean through the LMS plugin or the applet solution without the
> server?
> The former will come soonish...

Either - is there an LMS plug-in now?


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[pippin]

dschamis wrote:
> Either - is there an LMS plug-in now?

Well, in our closed beta, yes, open beta coming soon.



---
learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox
and
Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
at penguinlovesmusic.com
*New: iPeng 8, the Universal App for iOS 7 and iOS 8*
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[dschamis]

pippin wrote:
> Well, in our closed beta, yes, open beta coming soon.

Ah - got it - standing by - needless to say happy to help in any way I
can - thanks!


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[CommanderROR]

@pippin
Thanks for clarifying. It's a pity about the Wimp AAC. Especially since
they don't even provide 320kbit mp3...
Oh well, maybe Deezer elite will come to SB/LMS eventually... 😉


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[CommanderROR]

Just a small item:
Of someone is currently testing Qobuz vs Wimp/Tidal, could you please
test the following track:

Album: The Ultimate Star Trek
Track 2: First Contact - End...

Listen to the first couple of notes on both services and let me know
what you hear.

I did the comparison a couple of months ago, and that track sounded
noticeably different to me...


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[callesoroe]

CommanderROR wrote:
> Just a small item:
> Of someone is currently testing Qobuz vs Wimp/Tidal, could you please
> test the following track:
>
> Album: The Ultimate Star Trek
> Track 2: First Contact - End...
>
> Listen to the first couple of notes on both services and let me know
> what you hear.
>
> I did the comparison a couple of months ago, and that track sounded
> noticeably different to me...

It must be the same version of the album, or you can not do a
comparison.



Callesoroe
Living room: Transporter, Tact RCS 2.2X digital preamp, Martin Logan
Vista speakers, AMPS(Icepower): Acoustic Reality Ear Enigma
PLUS(PANELS), Acoustic Reality Ear TWO MKII(Bas)
Kitchen: Transporter, Prodipe Pro 5 active bi-amp speakers. Bedroom:
Receiver+UE boombox, Kids: Receiver+Active speakers, WIMP-HIFI flac
streaming.
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[CommanderROR]

It is the same Album. That's the point... :)


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[callesoroe]

CommanderROR wrote:
> It is the same Album. That's the point... :)

How do you really know that ...... ???



Callesoroe
Living room: Transporter, Tact RCS 2.2X digital preamp, Martin Logan
Vista speakers, AMPS(Icepower): Acoustic Reality Ear Enigma
PLUS(PANELS), Acoustic Reality Ear TWO MKII(Bas)
Kitchen: Transporter, Prodipe Pro 5 active bi-amp speakers. Bedroom:
Receiver+UE boombox, Kids: Receiver+Active speakers, WIMP-HIFI flac
streaming.
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[garym]

callesoroe wrote:
> How do you really know that ...... ???

correct. Different masterings (CDs released at different times....a
1990s version vs a new and improved (or not) version. I have lots of CDs
that are the exact same album but different masterings (Fleetwood Mac,
then play on, comes to mind. by the way, an example of the new mastering
being WAY BETTER than the original CD version.



*Location 1:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* several Touch, Radio, SB3
*Controllers:* iPhone4S & iPad2 (iPeng7 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
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[pippin]

But wasn't the point to compare the quality of the services. That would
include masterings. Little sense in just comparing lossless vs. lossy,
in the end it's the audio quality you get for the money that counts. If
it's better, it's better, independent on what causes it.

Also: don't forget that you might be more flexible in your mastering if
you don't have to take potential compression artifacts into account.
Although these usually affect lower bit rates much more.



---
learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox
and
Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
at penguinlovesmusic.com
*New: iPeng 8, the Universal App for iOS 7 and iOS 8*
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[garym]

pippin wrote:
> But wasn't the point to compare the quality of the services. That would
> include masterings. Little sense in just comparing lossless vs. lossy,
> in the end it's the audio quality you get for the money that counts. If
> it's better, it's better, independent on what causes it.
>
> Also: don't forget that you might be more flexible in your mastering if
> you don't have to take potential compression artifacts into account.
> Although these usually affect lower bit rates much more.

I generally agree with your point. But a comparison of a specific album
across the two services doesn't really tell you anything about the
quality of the two services because the comparison *may* be confounded
by the ignored variable of underlying album version. So the test would
really be more about which service carries the *version* of the album
you like best rather than which service is streaming a better quality
track (i.e, without added compression, etc.). It may be that testing
the latter is just fine. I'm just pointing out that your test is the
"joint test" of both underlying mastering/version and streaming.



*Location 1:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Location 2:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom,
Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio)
*Office:* Win7(64) > LMS 7.8 > Squeezelite
*Spares:* several Touch, Radio, SB3
*Controllers:* iPhone4S & iPad2 (iPeng7 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or
SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop
*Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes;
Streaming: Spotify
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[CommanderROR]

Actually, what I really wanted was for somebody to verify the audible
difference with this particular track. This is not about the service as
a whole. Professional magazines already did that and found that both
have their better and worse sounding tracks with Qobuz having a slight
advantage.
This question was more out of personal curiosity... ;)


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[callesoroe]

CommanderROR wrote:
> Actually, what I really wanted was for somebody to verify the audible
> difference with this particular track. This is not about the service as
> a whole. Professional magazines already did that and found that both
> have their better and worse sounding tracks with Qobuz having a slight
> advantage.
> This question was more out of personal curiosity... ;)

But it really do not tell anything. If you put two different versions of
the same CD in a CD player. They sound different too. Even vinyl does.



Callesoroe
Living room: Transporter, Tact RCS 2.2X digital preamp, Martin Logan
Vista speakers, AMPS(Icepower): Acoustic Reality Ear Enigma
PLUS(PANELS), Acoustic Reality Ear TWO MKII(Bas)
Kitchen: Transporter, Prodipe Pro 5 active bi-amp speakers. Bedroom:
Receiver+UE boombox, Kids: Receiver+Active speakers, WIMP-HIFI flac
streaming.
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[CommanderROR]

Not true.
If I take two CDs with the same name, cover, production year, tracks
and everything and put them in the same player, then I expect them to
sound the same. If they don't, I'll buy the one that sounds better to my
ears.


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[mdconnelly]

OK, I'm 2 weeks+ into my Tidal 30 day trial. Will we see a public beta
of ickStream soon? If not, I'll probably just cancel my Tidal
subscription until I get a chance to check it out in my Squeezebox
setup.



Mike (1 SB3, 1 Duet, 1 Boom, 2 Touch, & heavy use of iPeng on various
iThings)
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[remd]

mdconnelly wrote:
> OK, I'm 2 weeks+ into my Tidal 30 day trial. Will we see a public beta
> of ickStream soon? If not, I'll probably just cancel my Tidal
> subscription until I get a chance to check it out in my Squeezebox
> setup.

It is available now:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?102497-Pre-announcement-ickStream-open-beta-release-on-Squeezebox-!

More details and installation instructions at:
http://wiki.ickstream.com/index.php/Open_Beta_Squeezebox



Interested in the future of music streaming ? www.ickStream.com - A
world of music at your fingertips.
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[callesoroe]

CommanderROR wrote:
> Not true.
> If I take two CDs with the same name, cover, production year, tracks
> and everything and put them in the same player, then I expect them to
> sound the same. If they don't, I'll buy the one that sounds better to my
> ears.
>
> I don't really care why one service sounds better, as long as it does.
One album can sound better on Qbuz and antoher can sound better on wimp,
depending on the material they received from The Record Companies. So
comparing is only possible, if you test with same raw material.



Callesoroe
Living room: Transporter, Tact RCS 2.2X digital preamp, Martin Logan
Vista speakers, AMPS(Icepower): Acoustic Reality Ear Enigma
PLUS(PANELS), Acoustic Reality Ear TWO MKII(Bas)
Kitchen: Transporter, Prodipe Pro 5 active bi-amp speakers. Bedroom:
Receiver+UE boombox, Kids: Receiver+Active speakers, WIMP-HIFI flac
streaming.
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[Mnyb]

callesoroe wrote:
> One album can sound better on Qbuz and antoher can sound better on wimp,
> depending on the material they received from The Record Companies. So
> comparing is only possible, if you test with same raw material.

That was the point really , they apparently do not have the same raw
material or process it differently ,now why is that ? or rather do any
service really know or or actually actively partake in the process of
aquaring material and what is the post process if any ?

Or do they just provide an upload service for the labels and leave it at
that ?

And then what anything else done ?

For the usual music service it's not to bad leave it to the labels and
artist to present their material as they see fit, it's their call .

But if you call anything a "Hifi service" you committed yourself to some
higher standards the lossles vs lossy format thing is a marketting ruse
. The real deal would be if they actually acquired the best possible
master or version of a given work or had several version to user to
chose from . Unaltered by any post compression or volume change .

For example if you sell a "hifi service" you must be well aware of the
loudness war and that many labels do mincemeat of their old classics to
"modernise" them and simply ask for the old CD master or anything else
done prior to this craze .
That would be part of the "curating process" .

The streaming services are not exactly giving us the details on how its
really done . which is a shame more quality controll and more
transparency I would actually buy into such a service :)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
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[cymbop]

I was able to get subscribed to Tidal and install the Ickstream plugin
within an hour or so. Minor hiccup when the Ickstream platform itself
seemed to go down for a while, and I had to futz with the FLAC playback
settings within the LMS Advanced tab to get all tracks to play. But
with patience came triumph.

In terms of interface convenience, it's on par with Spotify via SBT.
The search function is clunkier and tends to cast a wide net for hits
and return much more than you are looking for, but no big deal. Tidal
via SBT does have access to curated playlists that Spotify via SBT does
not. Plus for me.

I did not do a direct comparison with Spotify for sound quality, but
after an hour of listening it felt surely better, more three
dimensional. Upper frequencies seemed accentuated slightly.

I did an A/B/A between Tidal and a couple of familiar FLAC tracks ripped
to my local hard drive and accessed via Touch. Unfortunately, the
hard-drive rips won by a small but definite margin with better detail
retrieval and overall a more pure and clean presentation. So I am
slightly disappointed that at this moment the lossless streaming
available to me does not equal the best fidelity I've had at home, but I
will go forward with Tidal for sure.


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[jimmypowder]

cymbop wrote:
> I was able to get subscribed to Tidal and install the Ickstream plugin
> within an hour or so. Minor hiccup when the Ickstream platform itself
> seemed to go down for a while, and I had to futz with the FLAC playback
> settings within the LMS Advanced tab to get all tracks to play. But
> with patience came triumph.
>
> In terms of interface convenience, it's on par with Spotify via SBT.
> The search function is clunkier and tends to cast a wide net for hits
> and return much more than you are looking for, but no big deal. Tidal
> via SBT does have access to curated playlists that Spotify via SBT does
> not. Plus for me.
>
> I did not do a direct comparison with Spotify for sound quality, but
> after an hour of listening it felt surely better, more three
> dimensional. Upper frequencies seemed accentuated slightly.
>
> I did an A/B/A between Tidal and a couple of familiar FLAC tracks ripped
> to my local hard drive and accessed via Touch. Unfortunately, the
> hard-drive rips won by a small but definite margin with better detail
> retrieval and overall a more pure and clean presentation. So I am
> slightly disappointed that at this moment the lossless streaming
> available to me does not equal the best fidelity I've had at home, but I
> will go forward with Tidal for sure.

I would agree that Tidal's audio quality is not quite as good as a
ripped cd on your computer .

But it sounds significantly better then Spotify . I have to tell you I
wonder if Spotify isn't cheating premium users with a fair amount of
stuff that's not encoded at 320 . It seems to me that recently their
audio quality has suffered .


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[CommanderROR]

There is a test up at http://www.hifisoundtesten.de/

It's AAC 320kbit vs FLAC and quite interesting, despite the fact that I
did not like any of the samples... ;)

I ran the test twice, once with heaphones, then again with my NuPros.
Surprisingly I got 3 out of 5 on both runs, and the same 3 out of 5. I
got Nr. 1 and 5 wrong both times. If you can spare a moment, try it and
share your results!

What this shows is, that I can actually hear the difference, and could
even reproduce the results. Also interesting, that I preferred the
"lossy" version on Track 1, while in Track 5 I just wasn't sure what I
liked better.


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[jimmypowder]

CommanderROR wrote:
> There is a test up at http://www.hifisoundtesten.de/
>
> It's AAC 320kbit vs FLAC and quite interesting, despite the fact that I
> did not like any of the samples... ;)
>
> I ran the test twice, once with heaphones, then again with my NuPros.
> Surprisingly I got 3 out of 5 on both runs, and the same 3 out of 5. I
> got Nr. 1 and 5 wrong both times. If you can spare a moment, try it and
> share your results!
>
> What this shows is, that I can actually hear the difference, and could
> even reproduce the results. Also interesting, that I preferred the
> "lossy" version on Track 1, while in Track 5 I just wasn't sure what I
> liked better.

Got em all right but there were a couple I probably guessed at. The
Eagles one was easy.


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[jimmypowder]

By the way,using Tidal for music discovery is bad.

Also,I downloaded several albums in HIFI and I have no doubt that a
couple of them were not lossless.

Im wondering if some of their music library is not in lossless format.
Anyone know if its all supposed in be
in lossless?


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[CommanderROR]

It's supposed to be, but quite a few titles are still mp3/aac sadly.


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[jimmypowder]

"CommanderROR wrote:
> It's supposed to be, but quite a few titles are still mp3/aac sadly.

Well then it's hardly worth 20 bucks a month to me .




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[jimmypowder]

"jimmypowder wrote:
> Well then it's hardly worth 20 bucks a month to me .
I have to say there were a couple of albums that sounded better on
Spotify .

I have Spotify's family plan of three accounts for 19.99 , now that's a
deal




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[pippin]

jimmypowder wrote:
> I have to say there were a couple of albums that sounded better on
> Spotify .
>

Well, that's a common misunderstanding WRT lossless vs. lossy, right?
I mean: lossless tracks are not supposed to sound _better_, they are
supposed to be closer to the original recordings.
To the contrary, lossy codecs have been developed by using methodology
picking the encodings that sounded best to test listeners (at least mp3,
but I believe for ogg and AAC they also ran listening tests). So having
a lossy album/track sound better isn't really unexpected. It's just not
as close to the original in that case...



---
learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox
and
Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
at penguinlovesmusic.com
*New: iPeng 8, the Universal App for iOS 7 and iOS 8*
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[CommanderROR]

@pippin

That is actually very true. The first recording in the Wimp HiFi test
sounded better to my ears in the lossy version, because it was less
"noisy". I would have taken that noise as compression artefacts, but it
was most likely part of the original recording.


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[Furry]

Regarding FLAC streams on Tidal being being reported as mp3: I've just
now selected a playlist, and its reported as FLAC.

Earlier, I updated the ickstream plugin; did this fix the FLAC/mp3
reporting?



Living room: SB Touch, Audiolab 8000A (c1985) + TDL RTL3 speakers.
Dining room: SB Boom.
Kitchen: SB Radio 1/3, with battery.
Bedroom 1: SB Radio 2/3, no battery.
Bedroom 2: SB3, AE 2.1. speakers.
Bedroom 3: Slim Devices SB3, Edirol MA-15D powered monitors.
Bathroom: SB Radio 3/3 (in white), with (and running on) battery.
LMS v7.8.0 on WHS 2011 running on HP Proliant N40L (1.5GHz, 8GB).
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[meltsheep]

Furry wrote:
> Regarding FLAC streams on Tidal being being reported as mp3: I've just
> now selected a playlist, and its reported as FLAC.
>
> Earlier, I updated the ickstream plugin; did this fix the FLAC/mp3
> reporting?
>
> Edit: just remembered there's a an ickstream forum. Checked there; the
> answer is 'yes'.

Qobuz via ickstream is mp3. And I've added Tidal to my list of services
but the icon doesn't appear. I don't know id ickstream want to make
money out of their product but to me it seems to be barely alpha quality
at the moment.

Do I need to use a specific version of squeezeboxserver?


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[pippin]

meltsheep wrote:
> I've got icktream working for TIDAL and Qobuz. Albums were streaming as
> mp3 but I seem to be getting mainy FLAC now! Very confusing.

See the post above yours: The streams were wrongly reported as mp3 in an
older version of the ickStream plugin, they were actually primarily FLAC
all the time.



---
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and
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[CommanderROR]

Just a brief question about Wimp HiFi Plugin...
Wimp Support told me that they have added a Radio mode for Wimp. I did
not see that in the Plugin. Can it be added or isn't it part of the API?


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[erland]

CommanderROR wrote:
> Just a brief question about Wimp HiFi Plugin...
> Wimp Support told me that they have added a Radio mode for Wimp. I did
> not see that in the Plugin. Can it be added or isn't it part of the
> API?
>
We will put it on the list, if my interpretation is correct it's part of
the API so it should just be a matter of implementing it.
It exists in the API both for WiMP and TIDAL so when we implement it we
should be able to support it in both services.

Thanks for the feedback.



Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets (both free and commercial)'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland).
If you like to encourage future presence on this forum and/or third
party plugin/applet development, 'consider purchasing some plugins'
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*Interested in the future of music streaming ? 'ickStream - A world of
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[CommanderROR]

Thank you! The missing Radio mode was my main complaint with Wimp, apart
from the incomplete FLAC selection and the "can't skip inside tracks"
bug.
So, maybe there is hope for Wimp after all...they should pay you... ;)


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[dschamis]

Got TIDAL working on my SBT via ickstream - was pretty easy and works
well - does anyone know if a native version is coming any time soon?


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[CommanderROR]

What do you mean with "native"?


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[dschamis]

CommanderROR wrote:
> What do you mean with "native"?

I mean an app on SBT without having to go through ickstream. Maybe that
wasn't ever being worked on - I thought someone said it was.


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[remd]

Tidal is now 'available in Canada '
(https://www.facebook.com/TidalHiFi/photos/a.1516277531956825.1073741828.1469901979927714/1517387021845876/?type=1).


'ickStream' (http://wiki.ickstream.com/index.php/Open_Beta_Squeezebox)
has also expanded support for Tidal to Canada, so Squeezebox users can
now listen to Tidal in the US, UK and Canada.



Interested in the future of music streaming ? www.ickStream.com - A
world of music at your fingertips.
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[remd]

Tidal is now available in Belgium, The Netherlands, Luxembourg, Finland
and Ireland.

'ickStream' (http://wiki.ickstream.com/index.php/Open_Beta_Squeezebox)
has also expanded support for Tidal to these countries, so enjoy
HighDefinition streaming on your Squeezebox if you are in one of the
supported countries!



Interested in the future of music streaming ? www.ickStream.com - A
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[charlesr]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[pippin]

charlesr wrote:
> Any chance of having a ickstream as an App that is installable via
> mysqueezebox? I use a Joggler to control my music, but I can't use it to
> control Tidal because it doesn't appear on the menu.
>

It should work if you connect the Joggler to the same server. The
ickStream plugin then should show up under "My Apps".

It's unlikely TIDAL is coming to MySqueezebox.com. The "Apps" on MySB
are not "installable", they essentially run on MySB and Logitech
probably won't add any new services there since the Squeezebox is a long
discontinued product.



---
learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox
and
Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
at penguinlovesmusic.com
*New: iPeng 8, the Universal App for iOS 7 and iOS 8*
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[charlesr]

Cheers. I just needed to restart the Joggler's squeezeplay interface for
it to notice :)


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[nervoteso]

hi i'm interested in using tidal on squeezebox what should i do? is
there a plugin?



Touchx3,Boomx2,1 radio, 1 classic!Squeezebox Server 7.7.2 (Qnap ts-119)
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[pippin]

nervoteso wrote:
> hi i'm interested in using tidal on squeezebox what should i do? is
> there a plugin?
>
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?102497-Announcement-ickStream-open-beta-release-on-Squeezebox-!
>
> even if the tidal site says this about italy:
> Currently access in your country is limited to HiFi Partner voucher
> holders only. If you have a voucher, please sign-up here:
>
> how could i have a voucher?

We are working on it.



---
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Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
at penguinlovesmusic.com
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[nervoteso]

thanks but i can't seem to see the ickstream plusin in the plugin
section of lms



Touchx3,Boomx2,1 radio, 1 classic!Squeezebox Server 7.7.2 (Qnap ts-119)
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[nervoteso]

a question, i'm on 7.2.2, i'm not a beta tester, could i use ickstream?
which the difference between using www.mysqueezebox or ickstream? can i
use both?



Touchx3,Boomx2,1 radio, 1 classic!Squeezebox Server 7.7.2 (Qnap ts-119)
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[Michael Herger]

> It's supposed to be, but quite a few titles are still mp3/aac sadly.

Just saw this posting by Tidal/WiMP's Pål Bråtelund:

"... The ironic thing is that we had to ingest everything again for
TIDAL that we already had in the WiMP service to get territory rights
for US correct. What could have been an afternoon's worth of database
work turned out to be two months of chewing the same files again. That's
why you see effects like this, Steven. But every day, tens of thousands
of files are coming alive on TIDAL."

Might explain why some of you are missing pieces.

--

Michael

[CommanderROR]

Theoretically yes. But Wimp is also pretty bad on QC, I reported various
Albums that were mp3 back in January, and they still are mp3...they
claim their whole catalogue is FLAC, but that's sadly far from the
truth.

I do believe them on the Tidal Database thingy though. Regional
restrictions on music/video/games/books are just pan silly in this day
and age, but it will be with for a long time to come...


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[pippin]

Yes, you can use both.
It's an open beta so anybody with a Squeezebox can use it.
It works through a server-side plugin so you can't use it without the
server running, right now.



---
learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox
and
Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
at penguinlovesmusic.com
*New: iPeng 8, the Universal App for iOS 7 and iOS 8*
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[Squeezemenicely]

Sorry for crashing this thread. But I simply cannot get rad.io to play
any music.

I am using the updated plugin, but no sound.



LMS 7.9.0 on Wandboard (SoA)
Synology DS-410j NAS
Squeezebox Touch, Squeezebox Boom, Squeezebox Radio, HifiBerry
PicorePlayer
Schiit - BIFROST Dac
Spotify Premium
iPhone: iPeng - iPad: Squeezepad, iPengHD
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[remd]

Squeezemenicely wrote:
> Sorry for crashing this thread. But I simply cannot get rad.io to play
> any music.
>
> I am using the updated plugin, but no sound.

Same here, we're looking into it..



Interested in the future of music streaming ? www.ickStream.com - A
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[pippin]

Squeezemenicely wrote:
> Sorry for crashing this thread. But I simply cannot get rad.io to play
> any music.
>
> I am using the updated plugin, but no sound.

Rad.io (now Radio.net in ickStream) should now work again through the
ickStream plugin.



---
learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox
and
Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App,
at penguinlovesmusic.com
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[Peiter]

WiMP HiFi has a known issue that it is far from all the music that is in
FLAC quality (about 20% are still in MP3. The 20% is confirmed by a DK
HiFi dealer for about half a year ago).

Can it be confirmed with certainty that Tidal is exclusively FLAC
streaming?

/ P


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[CommanderROR]

Tidal should be exactly the same as Wimp, so also plenty pf mp3 content
left. If you want all-FLAC then go with Qobuz or maybe wait for Deezer
Elite. Qobuz is great, but they have some gaps in their catalogue that
others don't...


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[CommanderROR]

@Pippin

all this suspense around the launch of the ickstream beta
is...interesting. I hope there won't be a big wave of dissappointment
when it actually does hit.

About Wimp/Tidal: I really hope here is a chance to test AAC streams on
LMS again. Since FLAC isn't there for all tracks and the fallback is
256k mp3 (which is not worth 20€ a month) this would be a great step
forward.
Since nobody knows exactly where the problem lies, it would prabably be
tough to fix though. Is it a problem with LMS or is it the Players that
are having trouble? Would it work with Squeezelite, but not with "real"
Logitech hardware?

My idea would be to offer it as a third choice. So far we can choose
"mp3" and "FLAC or mp3". Adding a third path for AAC should be possible,
mark it as "beta" or "experimental" and see if it works. Then you can
attempt to find out why it does (or doesn't) work in certain
circumstances. I guess you'd have to clarify with Wimp whether that
would be possible.


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[erland]

CommanderROR wrote:
>
> all this suspense around the launch of the ickstream beta
> is...interesting. I hope there won't be a big wave of dissappointment
> when it actually does hit.
>
Just don't get too high expectations.
While we are excited to be able to show that streaming services can be
integrated with Squeezebox without mysqueezebox.com, it's also important
to notice that the ickStream open beta will only contain a small part of
the complete feature set of ickStream Music Platform.



Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets (both free and commercial)'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland).
If you like to encourage future presence on this forum and/or third
party plugin/applet development, 'consider purchasing some plugins'
(http://license.isaksson.info))

*Interested in the future of music streaming ? 'ickStream - A world of
music at your fingertips'
(http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?98467-Pre-Announcement-ickStream&p=743516)*.
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