[Lumiera] New Open Source Video Editor

[y***@sas.upenn.edu]

Version 1.0 came out. May be worth checking out.

www.openshotvideo.com

I'm glad to see NoBug came out. Keep up the good work. I've been watching closely and will be able to help more with marketing, etc. once we get an alpha version up and running.


Best,
Yanik

[Burkhard Plaum]

Hi,

Post by y***@sas.upenn.edu
Version 1.0 came out. May be worth checking out.
www.openshotvideo.com
I'm glad to see NoBug came out. Keep up the good work. I've been
watching closely and will be able to help more with marketing,

You don't need marketing as long as you don't sell anything.

Post by y***@sas.upenn.edu
etc. once
we get an alpha version up and running.

Burkhard

[Aaron Newcomb]

Post by Burkhard Plaum
You don't need marketing as long as you don't sell anything.

You couldn't be more wrong on this point. It is very unlikely that a
product, person, thing will be successful and attract attention
without good marketing. Writing blog posts, twitter messages, doing
tutorials, speaking at conferences are all examples of marketing and
we need these things if we are to get people interested and help out
with this project. Marketing is only bad if you make it that way.

[p***@ichthyostega.de]

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
You don't need marketing as long as you don't sell anything.

You couldn't be more wrong on this point. It is very unlikely that a
product, person, thing will be successful and attract attention without good
  marketing. Writing blog posts, twitter messages, doing tutorials, speaking
at conferences are all examples of marketing and we need these things if we
are to get people interested and help out with this project. Marketing is
only bad if you make it that way.

fully agreed, Aaron. We need to care about these things.
But, similar to Burkhard, I don't agree to see this as marketing.

Probably we're running into confusion about terms.
Marketing indeed has to do with selling something; relations are then
structured as with a market place, with customers and with people interested
in selling and making profit.

Open source to the contrary has a strong relation to a culture of cooperation,
i.e. not asking foremost: how could I make yet more profit. The "allmende",
that is. But that doesn't mean that you don't have to care for *public
elations* and *networking*.

In the past time, especially since the 90ties, it was sort of en vogue
to claim "the market" to be an universal principle which can be used to
deal with everything. A lot of people even claimed, that living together,
having a family or similar, was just an "investment into human relationships".
Hopefully the worst aberrations of that decade are a matter of past now.

Anyway, we've all gotten into the habit of using "marketing" and "propaganda"
in a far to wide and sloppy way, for things which rather concern politics, are
social concerns or generally matters of relation and presentation.
We don't want to sell people's souls, maybe we want to spread the word.....


Cheers,
Hermann

[Burkhard Plaum]

Hi,

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
You don't need marketing as long as you don't sell anything.

You couldn't be more wrong on this point. It is very unlikely that a
product, person, thing will be successful and attract attention
without good marketing.

That's not true. ffmpeg makes hardly any marketing and has become
the defacto standard codec library.

libquicktime makes *zero* marketing and is used in a number of
professional movie production studios.

Cinelerra had little else than a website and has a large user community
by now.

OSS "economy" works completely different from the rest of the world.
If you tell that you have a great project it counts only little because
1000s of other developers do the same (and many projects are crap if you
look closer). What counts is what *users* (not connected to the project)
tell. And for that you need something which works in the first place.

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Writing blog posts, twitter messages, doing
tutorials, speaking at conferences are all examples of marketing and
we need these things if we are to get people interested and help out
with this project.

Yes, and that's the reason why Lumiera had 100s of logo contributions but
still cannot load them as JPEGs :)

Don't get me wrong I don't want to flame against anyone. But I'm afraid
that creating too much hype around something, which is far from being
usable, raises high expectations and carries the danger of later
disappointment and embarrasment. What a project needs in the early stages
are coders. And finding good coders for a project is hard because
good coders have their own ideas of doing things and usually start their
own projects. Marketing is mostly irrelevant here.

Burkhard

[Aaron Newcomb]

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Burkhard Plaum

Post by Burkhard Plaum
Hi,

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
You don't need marketing as long as you don't sell anything.

You couldn't be more wrong on this point. It is very unlikely that a
product, person, thing will be successful and attract attention
without good marketing.

That's not true.

Actually it is. I didn't say it was impossible I just said it was very
unlikely. Also, a lot of the opinion on this point depends on your
definition of "marketing". Here is the dictionary.com definition ...
"the total of activities involved in the transfer of goods from the
producer or seller to the consumer or buyer, including advertising,
shipping, storing, and selling." The only thing different in this case
is that we are not selling anything. We are giving it away.

Post by Burkhard Plaum
ffmpeg makes hardly any marketing and has become
the defacto standard codec library.
libquicktime makes *zero* marketing and is used in a number of
professional movie production studios.

1) These libraries work well. 2) People talk about them (and the
projects that use them) in blogs, word of mouth, whatever. And 3) more
people use them.
#2 above is still part of the marketing process even though it may
have happened organically in these cases.

Post by Burkhard Plaum
Cinelerra had little else than a website and has a large user community
by now.

Wow. I really have to disagree here. For myself I have done video
tutorials, Floss Weekly episodes, blog posts and presentations at
conferences. Although sometimes hard to measure, I would like to think
that at least some part of that large community (and that of Lumiera
for that matter) have come as a result of these "marketing" efforts on
my part. And this doesn't even begin to take into account the efforts
of a lot more people other than myself doing the same kinds of
activities.

Post by Burkhard Plaum
OSS "economy" works completely different from the rest of the world.
If you tell that you have a great project it counts only little because
1000s of other developers do the same (and many projects are crap if you
look closer). What counts is what *users* (not connected to the project)
tell.

I am not arguing with this. I would only ask how do these users find
out about the projects in the first place? Someone has to tell them.

Post by Burkhard Plaum
And for that you need something which works in the first place.

Not all the time. Don't discount momentum. Would Apple be more or less
successful if people didn't talk about their products before they were
actually released? In this case because this is open source we have
the opportunity to tell people about some of the cool things going on
before we have a finished product. Just look at all the buzz that
happens as Ubuntu cuts there RCs. It's not a finished product and not
always working, but people get excited because they can see what's
coming and they write/talk about it.

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Writing blog posts, twitter messages, doing
tutorials, speaking at conferences are all examples of marketing and
we need these things if we are to get people interested and help out
with this project.

Yes, and that's the reason why Lumiera had 100s of logo contributions but
still cannot load them as JPEGs :)

???

Post by Burkhard Plaum
Don't get me wrong I don't want to flame against anyone. But I'm afraid
that creating too much hype around something, which is far from being
usable, raises high expectations and carries the danger of later
disappointment and embarrasment. What a project needs in the early stages
are coders. And finding good coders for a project is hard because
good coders have their own ideas of doing things and usually start their
own projects.

Not argueing this point.

Post by Burkhard Plaum
Marketing is mostly irrelevant here.

Wrong for the above reasons. Unfortunately many in the FOSS community
share your opinions and this needs to change. Marketing (or perhaps it
would help to think of it as "promotion") can be a valuable tool at
every stage of a projects development if used correctly. More often
than not it is overlooked or thought of as an unwanted evil.

[Gour]

On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:04:39 -0500
Aaron> I am not arguing with this. I would only ask how do these users
Aaron> find out about the projects in the first place? Someone has to
Aaron> tell them.

Let me just say that I was totally unaware of Openshot application
until I saw it mentioned here in this thread.

Now, I'll seriously consider using it for my future projects, but I'm
not sure if it is good or bad concerning Cinelerra & Lumiera. ;)


Sincerely,
Gour

[Lorenzo]

Post by Gour
Let me just say that I was totally unaware of Openshot application
until I saw it mentioned here in this thread.
Now, I'll seriously consider using it for my future projects, but I'm
not sure if it is good or bad concerning Cinelerra & Lumiera. ;)

Same for me.
I had a try at it yesterday, it's a cool app, but overall it still seems
too much of a a Windows Movie Maker/iMovie lookalike compared to
Cinelerra: but I may be wrong.

I guess (hope :-)) that Lumiera is less oriented to the 'do a video of
your seaside photos with jazzy swirling transitions' and more to the
professional video making (which also means amateurs who want to go a
step further like short-movie makers etc) as Cinelerra is.

Lorenzo.

[Raffaella Traniello]

Post by Lorenzo
I had a try at it yesterday, it's a cool app, but overall it still seems
too much of a a Windows Movie Maker/iMovie lookalike compared to
Cinelerra: but I may be wrong.

I think you are right. And I'm very happy about it.
We need Lumiera *and* Openshot because we have both professionals and
amateurs (or young students).

Ciao
Raffa

[Odin Omdal Hørthe]

Post by Gour
On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:04:39 -0500
Aaron> I am not arguing with this. I would only ask how do these users
Aaron> find out about the projects in the first place? Someone has to
Aaron> tell them.
Let me just say that I was totally unaware of Openshot application
until I saw it mentioned here in this thread.
Now, I'll seriously consider using it for my future projects, but I'm
not sure if it is good or bad concerning Cinelerra & Lumiera. ;)

Oh, I'm using PiTiVi, if you haven't tried the latest version in the
last 3 months, I would say give that a try as well. It's still the
family vacation editor though; but if you need some editing done, it
has done me the favour. I didn't like OpenShot, because it didn't like
my video - that might've changed in the last two months.

AFAIK they use MLT mostly, and don't actually do so very much video
editor work, only making a hopefully stable GUI ontop of MLT (the same
framework that Kdenlive uses). It does look rather cheap though, if
they'd just copied PiTiVi's look it would've been far better :-)

Lumiera is in another league; OpenShot, PiTiVi, Kdenlive et al are no
real competition. Once Lumiera can play video clips and do a basic cut
I can start using it over the other programs :-)

[Gour]

On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:33:43 +0100
Odin> Lumiera is in another league;

You mean, "Lumiera is supposed to be in another league" 'cause we
cannot judge atm. ;)

Odin> OpenShot, PiTiVi, Kdenlive et al are no real competition.

Interestingly, but today on IRC I've heard that Kdenlive is alto
targetting pro users, although my experience with it was much more
frustrating than with Cinelerra...


Sincerely,
Gour

[Burkhard Plaum]

Hi,

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Actually it is. I didn't say it was impossible I just said it was very
unlikely. Also, a lot of the opinion on this point depends on your
definition of "marketing". Here is the dictionary.com definition ...
"the total of activities involved in the transfer of goods from the
producer or seller to the consumer or buyer, including advertising,
shipping, storing, and selling." The only thing different in this case
is that we are not selling anything. We are giving it away.

Ok, for me marketing has a purely commercial meaning.

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
ffmpeg makes hardly any marketing and has become
the defacto standard codec library.
libquicktime makes *zero* marketing and is used in a number of
professional movie production studios.

1) These libraries work well. 2) People talk about them (and the
projects that use them) in blogs, word of mouth, whatever. And 3) more
people use them.
#2 above is still part of the marketing process even though it may
have happened organically in these cases.

Yes, and that's the best and most efficient way to make a project popular.
For you it's a kind of marketing, I would call it word-of-mouth propaganda.
The difference is, that the independent opinion of users is much more
credible than what developers (or other people connected to a project) say.
And for that you need (see your point 1) something that works well in the
first place (and programmers who write it).

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
Cinelerra had little else than a website and has a large user community
by now.

Wow. I really have to disagree here. For myself I have done video
tutorials, Floss Weekly episodes, blog posts and presentations at
conferences.

Yes, but you are not connected to the original cinelerra project. I know
that, because it's a one-man project. What you do (and it's good that you
do it) is no marketing for me.

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Although sometimes hard to measure, I would like to think
that at least some part of that large community (and that of Lumiera
for that matter) have come as a result of these "marketing" efforts on
my part.

How many developers did you recruit?

[...]

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Wrong for the above reasons. Unfortunately many in the FOSS community
share your opinions and this needs to change.

It shouldn't change and it won't. Remember the 'F' in FOSS stands for
freedom. As soon as you want people to change their opinion, the basic
principle is lost.

My personal view of FOSS is that it's pure anarchy with all pros and
cons. Established rules from the corporate/business world simply don't apply
here. If you look at the motivations people have for working on FOSS
projects (and also at the projects temselves), you'll find an extremely
wide variety. People who don't like that diversity, should stay away.
People who want the community to develop is a certain direction, haven't
understood what freedom means. They should rather become politicians.

Burkhard

[Aaron Newcomb]

Sounds like we are getting hung up in semantics for the most part. I
sincerely hope your view of FOSS as anarchy is not shared by the wider
community. Otherwise we are all in trouble.

Cheers!

On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Burkhard Plaum

Post by Burkhard Plaum
Hi,

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Actually it is. I didn't say it was impossible I just said it was very
unlikely. Also, a lot of the opinion on this point depends on your
definition of "marketing". Here is the dictionary.com definition ...
"the total of activities involved in the transfer of goods from the
producer or seller to the consumer or buyer, including advertising,
shipping, storing, and selling." The only thing different in this case
is that we are not selling anything. We are giving it away.

Ok, for me marketing has a purely commercial meaning.

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
ffmpeg makes hardly any marketing and has become
the defacto standard codec library.
libquicktime makes *zero* marketing and is used in a number of
professional movie production studios.

1) These libraries work well. 2) People talk about them (and the
projects that use them) in blogs, word of mouth, whatever. And 3) more
people use them.
#2 above is still part of the marketing process even though it may
have happened organically in these cases.

Yes, and that's the best and most efficient way to make a project popular.
For you it's a kind of marketing, I would call it word-of-mouth propaganda.
The difference is, that the independent opinion of users is much more
credible than what developers (or other people connected to a project) say.
And for that you need (see your point 1) something that works well in the
first place (and programmers who write it).

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
Cinelerra had little else than a website and has a large user community
by now.

Wow. I really have to disagree here. For myself I have done video
tutorials, Floss Weekly episodes, blog posts and presentations at
conferences.

Yes, but you are not connected to the original cinelerra project. I know
that, because it's a one-man project. What you do (and it's good that you
do it) is no marketing for me.

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Although sometimes hard to measure, I would like to think
that at least some part of that large community (and that of Lumiera
for that matter) have come as a result of these "marketing" efforts on
my part.

How many developers did you recruit?
[...]

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Wrong for the above reasons. Unfortunately many in the FOSS community
share your opinions and this needs to change.

It shouldn't change and it won't. Remember the 'F' in FOSS stands for
freedom. As soon as you want people to change their opinion, the basic
principle is lost.
My personal view of FOSS is that it's pure anarchy with all pros and
cons. Established rules from the corporate/business world simply don't apply
here. If you look at the motivations people have for working on FOSS
projects (and also at the projects temselves), you'll find an extremely
wide variety. People who don't like that diversity, should stay away.
People who want the community to develop is a certain direction, haven't
understood what freedom means. They should rather become politicians.
Burkhard
_______________________________________________
Lumiera mailing list
http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
http://lumiera.org/donations.html

[Lorenzo]

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
You don't need marketing as long as you don't sell anything.

You couldn't be more wrong on this point. It is very unlikely that a
product, person, thing will be successful and attract attention
without good marketing. Writing blog posts, twitter messages, doing
tutorials, speaking at conferences are all examples of marketing and
we need these things if we are to get people interested and help out
with this project. Marketing is only bad if you make it that way.

I perfectly agree. The 'open source doesn't need marketing because it's
not a product' is IMHO a rather naive attitude, in fact I think there
are many examples of OS projects which suffered from this.
Of course there are many ways to do marketing, you can call it
promotion, word mouth or whatever but it has to be covered from the
early stage of the project.

BTW I can't recall if there was already some discussion about
screenshots.. I think that there should be some cool screenshots even of
the 'mockup' version to wet people's appetite even in this early stage
(as you may recall there was always a screenshot in the mockups I made
for the website)...

Bests,
Lorenzo

[Christian Thaeter]

Post by Lorenzo

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
You don't need marketing as long as you don't sell anything.

You couldn't be more wrong on this point. It is very unlikely that a
product, person, thing will be successful and attract attention
without good marketing. Writing blog posts, twitter messages, doing
tutorials, speaking at conferences are all examples of marketing and
we need these things if we are to get people interested and help out
with this project. Marketing is only bad if you make it that way.

I perfectly agree. The 'open source doesn't need marketing because it's
not a product' is IMHO a rather naive attitude, in fact I think there
are many examples of OS projects which suffered from this.
Of course there are many ways to do marketing, you can call it
promotion, word mouth or whatever but it has to be covered from the
early stage of the project.
BTW I can't recall if there was already some discussion about
screenshots.. I think that there should be some cool screenshots even of
the 'mockup' version to wet people's appetite even in this early stage
(as you may recall there was always a screenshot in the mockups I made
for the website)...

we have the 'builddrone' running on the server which builds and tests
Lumiera whenever a developer pushes new code up. It is a planned task to
add support for running lumiera there and take screenshots and perhaps
do also some GUI testing by simulating clicks and other events. This
just needs someone[tm] to take it and implement it. Thats relative
simple bash programming the only reason I didnt do that yet is because
this would be really a good task for some beginner who knows or wants to
learn shell scripting but doesnt know C/C++.

Christian

Post by Lorenzo
Bests,
Lorenzo
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Lumiera mailing list
http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
http://lumiera.org/donations.html

[Ichthyostega]

BTW I can't recall if there was already some discussion about screenshots.. I
think that there should be some cool screenshots even of the 'mockup'
version...

the only problem is: you won't see a visible difference to the last screenshot
published, as all work done meanwhile is happening rather well below the surface
:-)

Cheers
Hermann

[Lorenzo]

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Lumiera] New Open Source Video Editor
From: Ichthyostega <***@ichthyostega.de>
To: General Discussion about Lumiera <***@lists.lumiera.org>
Date: 02/07/2010 12:17 AM

Post by Ichthyostega

BTW I can't recall if there was already some discussion about screenshots.. I
think that there should be some cool screenshots even of the 'mockup'
version...

the only problem is: you won't see a visible difference to the last screenshot
published, as all work done meanwhile is happening rather well below the surface
:-)

Sure :-). What I meant is have some screenshots (even if they are
slightly /mockups/) they don't need to be updated each week ;) but a
video editor is such a 'visual' software that I'm sure anyone curious
about Lumiera (be it developer or user) will be curious to have an idea
of what it (will) look like.

Lorenzo

[Ichthyostega]

Post by Lorenzo
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Lumiera] New Open Source Video Editor
Date: 02/07/2010 12:17 AM

Post by Ichthyostega

BTW I can't recall if there was already some discussion about screenshots.. I
think that there should be some cool screenshots even of the 'mockup'
version...

the only problem is: you won't see a visible difference to the last screenshot
published, as all work done meanwhile is happening rather well below the surface
:-)

Sure :-). What I meant is have some screenshots (even if they are
slightly /mockups/) they don't need to be updated each week ;) but a
video editor is such a 'visual' software....

...as said, we /have/ these screenshots. They aren't even a mockup.
Loading Image...

What we really need is volunteers working on the website,
re-arranging the existing already asciidoced pages, writing summary pages, etc.

Of course, in addition it would also be helpful if the "workflow" related
things could be picked up. There is a started minimal workflow by Nikola,
there is the proposed TOC of a user manual (which is helpful as an outline),
there are some detail discussions etc.

No one is currently blocked by these things missing, but it would be certainly
of benefit for the project (i.e. to do this discussions and planning work) and
also for the visibility (because it could lead to more detailed mockups).
While I'd like to work on this, I'll refrain from doing so personally,
because my contribution is much more needed some levels below ;-)


Cheers,
Hermann

[Lorenzo]

Hi,

Post by Ichthyostega

Post by Lorenzo
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Lumiera] New Open Source Video Editor
Date: 02/07/2010 12:17 AM

Post by Ichthyostega

BTW I can't recall if there was already some discussion about screenshots.. I
think that there should be some cool screenshots even of the 'mockup'
version...

the only problem is: you won't see a visible difference to the last screenshot
published, as all work done meanwhile is happening rather well below the surface
:-)

Sure :-). What I meant is have some screenshots (even if they are
slightly /mockups/) they don't need to be updated each week ;) but a
video editor is such a 'visual' software....

...as said, we /have/ these screenshots. They aren't even a mockup.
http://git.lumiera.org/gitweb?p=lumiera-propaganda;a=blob;f=lumiera_screenshot.png

I /know/! :) Probably I expresed myself wrongly.. I meant they should be
on the front-page well visible. And I /know/ thay are not /mockups/
(wrong word on my side).. I should have said alpha, dev... etc.
Anyway it wasn't my intention to make a fuss about this and I agree with
the rest of what you say.

Post by Ichthyostega
What we really need is volunteers working on the website,
re-arranging the existing already asciidoced pages, writing summary pages, etc. Of course, in addition it would also be helpful if the "workflow" related
things could be picked up. There is a started minimal workflow by Nikola,
there is the proposed TOC of a user manual (which is helpful as an outline),
there are some detail discussions etc.
No one is currently blocked by these things missing, but it would be certainly
of benefit for the project (i.e. to do this discussions and planning work) and
also for the visibility (because it could lead to more detailed mockups).

Maybe asciidoc is a barrier for people to contribute? I know it's easy,
yet still one has to learn it and many 'web-people' don't (?)
Is there a way of templating it? Like some asciidoc guru sets up the
structure (based on the mockup(s)) and then 'content people' can 'fill
it up'?

Post by Ichthyostega
While I'd like to work on this, I'll refrain from doing so personally,
because my contribution is much more needed some levels below ;-)

Yes.

Bests,
Lorenzo

[andrew james]

Post by Lorenzo

Post by Ichthyostega
No one is currently blocked by these things missing, but it would be certainly
of benefit for the project (i.e. to do this discussions and planning work) and
also for the visibility (because it could lead to more detailed mockups).

Maybe asciidoc is a barrier for people to contribute? I know it's easy,
yet still one has to learn it and many 'web-people' don't (?)
Is there a way of templating it? Like some asciidoc guru sets up the
structure (based on the mockup(s)) and then 'content people' can 'fill
it up'?

work in progress to design user interface to uwiki (asciidoc).

the prewritten template structure you refer to is like
something we plan to write in lumiera's asciidoc manual, put
a link to the manual at every page where a user may write in
asciidoc codes.

another useful feature planned is javascript controls in the
browser (like the form to edit at
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shoe&action=edit&section=2)
to automate asciidoc codes

other automation is key words, for example, the word
'lumiera' is automatically linked and formatted
emphatically. user only types the word in plain text.

finally, I think there are only a few codes to write often,
most are intuitive like * is list. refer to most wikipedia
pages, the formatted text is minimal, headers, links, lists
are easy. tables, graphics are more formulaic to write

even if a user does not know the codes, we provide the
javascript controls at best, at worst lumiera documenters
may reviews pages.

[Christian Thaeter]

Post by andrew james

Post by Lorenzo

Post by Ichthyostega
No one is currently blocked by these things missing, but it would be certainly
of benefit for the project (i.e. to do this discussions and planning work) and
also for the visibility (because it could lead to more detailed mockups).

Maybe asciidoc is a barrier for people to contribute? I know it's easy,
yet still one has to learn it and many 'web-people' don't (?)
Is there a way of templating it? Like some asciidoc guru sets up the
structure (based on the mockup(s)) and then 'content people' can 'fill
it up'?

work in progress to design user interface to uwiki (asciidoc).
the prewritten template structure you refer to is like something we plan
to write in lumiera's asciidoc manual, put a link to the manual at every
page where a user may write in asciidoc codes.
another useful feature planned is javascript controls in the browser
(like the form to edit at
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shoe&action=edit&section=2) to
automate asciidoc codes
other automation is key words, for example, the word 'lumiera' is
automatically linked and formatted emphatically. user only types the
word in plain text.
finally, I think there are only a few codes to write often, most are
intuitive like * is list. refer to most wikipedia pages, the formatted
text is minimal, headers, links, lists are easy. tables, graphics are
more formulaic to write
even if a user does not know the codes, we provide the javascript
controls at best, at worst lumiera documenters may reviews pages.

Above link doesnt work well for me (no wikipedia user account perhaps)

in my experience wysiwyg editors for wikis do more harm than good, some
buttons which literally insert markup and templates might be good. I
would like to have such some day but first the basics have to be working
and currently there is no much progress on uwiki, i decided to work on
lumiera for some time and still hoping some more people will help uwiki
a bit. I'd really like if someone manages to integrate EditArea into uwiki:
http://www.cdolivet.com/index.php?page=editArea
and then maybe build on top of that/extend it.


Christian

[Aaron Newcomb]

Post by Lorenzo
Maybe asciidoc is a barrier for people to contribute?

Yes. Drupal would be a better choice IMHO. If the site were run on
Drupal I would consider chipping in some time on this.

[Christian Thaeter]

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Lorenzo
Maybe asciidoc is a barrier for people to contribute?

Yes. Drupal would be a better choice IMHO. If the site were run on
Drupal I would consider chipping in some time on this.

Checklist:
[ ] Easily user editable (some markup)
[ ] Toolchain for translating web edited documents to other formats:
high quality printable: pdf, latex; Buildin help system, Manpages
[ ] Documentation/Pages are generateable from automatic scripts
(builddrone reports, extracted from sourcecode comments)
[ ] offline editable and then syncronizeable with the server thereafter
[ ] concurrently editable
[ ] Being able to maintain the documentation in the lumiera source
repository (merge back and forth)
[ ] Low impact on server performance, static serving
[ ] Reasonable secure, one doesnt need to apply security patches every
week.
[ ] We have someone who has the time to maintain it for the time coming

I think Drupal fails a lot of these requirements, asciidoc (and uWiki)
was choosen with this in mind, so this is a bit unfair competition. Some
time ago we concluded that we dont want an island solution for the
server which doesnt integrate with the community spirit of the project.

I really think asciidoc is and should be not the problem as far I see
its one of the most simple markup languages, You basically just write
plaintext. Finding someone who makes this little nicer when there is
some formatting glitch shouldnt be the problem either.

As a sidenote I may also point out that we have a lot of asciidoced
content, we need people who organize it and give polish to make it look
nice. for Organizing you need to implement the site structure we
descided upon some time ago (and maybe improve it). For making a
polished page you need to do some serious CSS hacking and bit artwork.
Both these tasks don't depend on the way we generate pages. They just
depend on someone actually taking this job and work on it.


Christian

[Odin Omdal Hørthe]

Drupal is not cloneable. Not distributed. So it's not a good fit with a
project with the openness-goal of Lumiera.

We're breaking new ground on this, and I'm the first to admit it is hard. I
could've had a nice community web page running build on Django a year ago,
however - that is neither not easily clonable and distributed.

You should be able to checkout lumiera and get everything. Then you can work
on the website on a plane, and merge when you get down - and ypu can always
have the wiki easily with you right there in the source tree.

And if you'd ever want to excersize one of your freedoms, you can really
clone the whole project.

I love the idea, but yes, it does make everything more difficult in the
start right now.

And also, you must not forget that uwiki will enable hit-and-run people to
extremely easily contribute patches.

You can open up uwiki with lumi source code, navigate to whatever file and
fix that iriitating misspelling right away! It's damn easy, or rather will
be. And it'll be integrated to the core of the lumisite.

Anyway; my phone lost all battery writing this so I bet it'll die soon
again. ;)

But yes, I also think it is a big hurdle as I'm not used to it. I know
django and wordpress and php, I would be able to learn drupal or joomla
pretty darn quick because they are also databaseapps that use templates to
render the pages, this is something totally different - and new, so it'll
take some time to get good.

But I've got faith in it! ;-)

Maybe asciidoc is a barrier...

Yes. Drupal would be a better choice IMHO. If the site were run on
Drupal I would consider chipping in some time on this.

[Ichthyostega]

Post by Lorenzo
Maybe asciidoc is a barrier for people to contribute?

But yes, I also think it is a big hurdle as I'm not used to it. I know django
and wordpress and php, I would be able to learn drupal or joomla pretty darn
quick because they are also databaseapps that use templates to render the
pages, ....
Yes. Drupal would be a better choice IMHO. If the site were run on Drupal I
would consider chipping in some time on this.

hehe guys, your statements are really surprising.
Databases, Applications which need to be setup, template languages are /simple/,
but Asciidoc is, well, what's it?

Maybe the fact that there is *no* huge complicated steam engine behind
asciidoc, which freaks people away. Maybe everyone is thinking, "well, there
needs to be a hidden apparatus somewhere for this to work, and I feel so deaf
because I can't find it..."


OK, irony aside. Actually there seem to be some hurdles, which are difficult
to understand for *us* (the devs). If so, we should try to find out.
I don't think that asciidoc is the problem, honestly. Doing a checkout via GIT
could be more of a problem for some contributors, but probably the most
prominent problem is that you need to do some new, uncommon things in order to
achieve an effect, and that you need to figure out how to do it precisely, and
even acknowledge the actions with other people.

But maybe we're all looking into the wrong direction, and actually it's not so
much hurdles, but a clear and attractive goal, which is missing. "We need a new
and better organisation of existing content" might sound quite abstract to some.
If the latter was the case, maybe we should try to get the most basic top-level
pages into the new structure quickly, be it even with a lot of TODO and FIXME
tags. A topic we could discuss more in depth at the meeting tomorrow....

Cheers,
Hermann

[Lorenzo]

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
You don't need marketing as long as you don't sell anything.

You couldn't be more wrong on this point. It is very unlikely that a
product, person, thing will be successful and attract attention
without good marketing. Writing blog posts, twitter messages, doing
tutorials, speaking at conferences are all examples of marketing and
we need these things if we are to get people interested and help out
with this project. Marketing is only bad if you make it that way.

I perfectly agree. The 'open source doesn't need marketing because it's
not a product' is IMHO a rather naive attitude, in fact I think there
are many examples of OS projects which suffered from this.
Of course there are many ways to do marketing, you can call it
promotion, word mouth or whatever but it has to be covered from the
early stage of the project.

BTW I can't recall if there was already some discussion about
screenshots.. I think that there should be some cool screenshots even of
the 'mockup' version to wet people's appetite even in this early stage
(as you may recall there was always a screenshot in the mockups I made
for the website)...

Bests,
Lorenzo

[Aaron Newcomb]

Post by Burkhard Plaum
You don't need marketing as long as you don't sell anything.

You couldn't be more wrong on this point. It is very unlikely that a
product, person, thing will be successful and attract attention
without good marketing. Writing blog posts, twitter messages, doing
tutorials, speaking at conferences are all examples of marketing and
we need these things if we are to get people interested and help out
with this project. Marketing is only bad if you make it that way.

[Hudson Luce]

To do "marketing" you need a finished, marketable product. The "stable" versions of Ubuntu (except for 9.10) are examples of marketable products. Lumiera isn't there yet, so marketing is premature at this time, and would only give the efforts made so far a bad reputation and bad press, which would be a big mistake...

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Writing blog posts, twitter messages, doing
tutorials, speaking at conferences are all examples of marketing and
we need these things if we are to get people interested and help out
with this project.

Don't get me wrong I don't want to flame against anyone. But I'm afraid
that creating too much hype around something, which is far from being
usable, raises high expectations and carries the danger of later
disappointment and embarrasment. What a project needs in the early stages
are coders. And finding good coders for a project is hard because
good coders have their own ideas of doing things and usually start their
own projects. Marketing is mostly irrelevant here.

Burkhard

[Hudson Luce]

Now you really stuck your foot in it, Aaron. Enrico Malatesta, in "Anarchy"(http://theanarchistlibrary.org/anarchy-0):

"Anarchists, including this writer, have used the word State, and
still do, to mean the sum total of the political, legislative,
judiciary, military and financial institutions through which the
management of their own affairs, the control over their personal
behaviour, the responsibility for their personal safety, are taken away
from the people and entrusted to others who, by usurpation or
delegation, are vested with the powers to make the laws for everything
and everybody, and to oblige the people to observe them, if need be, by
the use of collective force. In this sense the word State means government, or to put it another
way, it is the impersonal abstract expression of that state of affairs,
personified by government: and therefore the terms abolition of the
State, Society without the State, etc., describe exactly the concept
which anarchists seek to express, of the destruction of all political
order based on authority, and the creation of a society of free and
equal members based on a harmony of interests and the voluntary
participation of everybody in carrying out social responsibilities."

Anarchy does not mean chaos, nor disorder: "[T]he word anarchy was universally used in the sense of disorder and
confusion; and it is to this day used in that sense by the uninformed
as well as by political opponents with an interest in distorting the
truth. ... The existence of this prejudice and its influence on the public’s
definition of the word anarchy, is easily explained. Man, like all
living beings, adapts and accustoms himself to the conditions under
which he lives, and passes on acquired habits. Thus, having being born
and bred in bondage, when the descendants of a long line of slaves
started to think, they believed that slavery was an essential condition
of life, and freedom seemed impossible to them. Similarly, workers who
for centuries were obliged, and therefore accustomed, to depend for
work, that is bread, on the goodwill of the master, and to see their
lives always at the mercy of the owners of the land and of capital,
ended by believing that it is the master who feeds them, and
ingenuously ask one how would it be possible to live if there were no
masters."
--- On Thu, 1/14/10, Aaron Newcomb <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Aaron Newcomb <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lumiera] New Open Source Video Editor
To: "General Discussion about Lumiera" <***@lists.lumiera.org>
Date: Thursday, January 14, 2010, 3:35 PM

Sounds like we are getting hung up in semantics for the most part. I
sincerely hope your view of FOSS as anarchy is not shared by the wider
community. Otherwise we are all in trouble.

Cheers!

On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Burkhard Plaum

Post by Burkhard Plaum
Hi,

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Actually it is. I didn't say it was impossible I just said it was very
unlikely. Also, a lot of the opinion on this point depends on your
definition of "marketing". Here is the dictionary.com definition ...
"the total of activities involved in the transfer of goods from the
producer or seller to the consumer or buyer, including advertising,
shipping, storing, and selling." The only thing different in this case
is that we are not selling anything. We are giving it away.

Ok, for me marketing has a purely commercial meaning.

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
ffmpeg makes hardly any marketing and has become
the defacto standard codec library.
libquicktime makes *zero* marketing and is used in a number of
professional movie production studios.

1) These libraries work well. 2) People talk about them (and the
projects that use them) in blogs, word of mouth, whatever. And 3) more
people use them.
#2 above is still part of the marketing process even though it may
have happened organically in these cases.

Yes, and that's the best and most efficient way to make a project popular..
For you it's a kind of marketing, I would call it word-of-mouth propaganda.
The difference is, that the independent opinion of users is much more
credible than what developers (or other people connected to a project) say.
And for that you need (see your point 1) something that works well in the
first place (and programmers who write it).

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
Cinelerra had little else than a website and has a large user community
by now.

Wow. I really have to disagree here. For myself I have done video
tutorials, Floss Weekly episodes, blog posts and presentations at
conferences.

Yes, but you are not connected to the original cinelerra project. I know
that, because it's a one-man project. What you do (and it's good that you
do it) is no marketing for me.

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Although sometimes hard to measure, I would like to think
that at least some part of that large community (and that of Lumiera
for that matter) have come as a result of these "marketing" efforts on
my part.

How many developers did you recruit?
[...]

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Wrong for the above reasons. Unfortunately many in the FOSS community
share your opinions and this needs to change.

It shouldn't change and it won't. Remember the 'F' in FOSS stands for
freedom. As soon as you want people to change their opinion, the basic
principle is lost.
My personal view of FOSS is that it's pure anarchy with all pros and
cons. Established rules from the corporate/business world simply don't apply
here. If you look at the motivations people have for working on FOSS
projects (and also at the projects temselves), you'll find an extremely
wide variety. People who don't like that diversity, should stay away.
People who want the community to develop is a certain direction, haven't
understood what freedom means. They should rather become politicians.
Burkhard
_______________________________________________
Lumiera mailing list
http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
http://lumiera.org/donations.html

[Aaron Newcomb]

Thanks for sharing your view of anarchy, but other than that I am afraid I
missed your point. Sorry.

Post by Hudson Luce
Now you really stuck your foot in it, Aaron. Enrico Malatesta, in
"Anarchists, including this writer, have used the word State, and still do,
to mean the sum total of the political, legislative, judiciary, military and
financial institutions through which the management of their own affairs,
the control over their personal behaviour, the responsibility for their
personal safety, are taken away from the people and entrusted to others who,
by usurpation or delegation, are vested with the powers to make the laws for
everything and everybody, and to oblige the people to observe them, if need
be, by the use of collective force. In this sense the word State means
government, or to put it another way, it is the impersonal abstract
expression of that state of affairs, personified by government: and
therefore the terms abolition of the State, Society without the State, etc.,
describe exactly the concept which anarchists seek to express, of the
destruction of all political order based on authority, and the creation of
a society of free and equal members based on a harmony of interests and the
voluntary participation of everybody in carrying out social
responsibilities."
Anarchy does not mean chaos, nor disorder: "[T]he word anarchy was
universally used in the sense of disorder and confusion; and it is to this
day used in that sense by the uninformed as well as by political opponents
with an interest in distorting the truth. ... The existence of this
prejudice and its influence on the public’s definition of the word anarchy,
is easily explained. Man, like all living beings, adapts and accustoms
himself to the conditions under which he lives, and passes on acquired
habits. Thus, having being born and bred in bondage, when the descendants of
a long line of slaves started to think, they believed that slavery was an
essential condition of life, and freedom seemed impossible to them.
Similarly, workers who for centuries were obliged, and therefore accustomed,
to depend for work, that is bread, on the goodwill of the master, and to see
their lives always at the mercy of the owners of the land and of capital,
ended by believing that it is the master who feeds them, and ingenuously ask
one how would it be possible to live if there were no masters."
Subject: Re: [Lumiera] New Open Source Video Editor
Date: Thursday, January 14, 2010, 3:35 PM
Sounds like we are getting hung up in semantics for the most part. I
sincerely hope your view of FOSS as anarchy is not shared by the wider
community. Otherwise we are all in trouble.
Cheers!
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Burkhard Plaum

Post by Burkhard Plaum
Hi,

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Actually it is. I didn't say it was impossible I just said it was very
unlikely. Also, a lot of the opinion on this point depends on your
definition of "marketing". Here is the dictionary.com definition ...
"the total of activities involved in the transfer of goods from the
producer or seller to the consumer or buyer, including advertising,
shipping, storing, and selling." The only thing different in this case
is that we are not selling anything. We are giving it away.

Ok, for me marketing has a purely commercial meaning.

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
ffmpeg makes hardly any marketing and has become
the defacto standard codec library.
libquicktime makes *zero* marketing and is used in a number of
professional movie production studios.

1) These libraries work well. 2) People talk about them (and the
projects that use them) in blogs, word of mouth, whatever. And 3) more
people use them.
#2 above is still part of the marketing process even though it may
have happened organically in these cases.

Yes, and that's the best and most efficient way to make a project

popular.

Post by Burkhard Plaum
For you it's a kind of marketing, I would call it word-of-mouth

propaganda.

Post by Burkhard Plaum
The difference is, that the independent opinion of users is much more
credible than what developers (or other people connected to a project)

say.

Post by Burkhard Plaum
And for that you need (see your point 1) something that works well in the
first place (and programmers who write it).

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
Cinelerra had little else than a website and has a large user community
by now.

Wow. I really have to disagree here. For myself I have done video
tutorials, Floss Weekly episodes, blog posts and presentations at
conferences.

Yes, but you are not connected to the original cinelerra project. I know
that, because it's a one-man project. What you do (and it's good that you
do it) is no marketing for me.

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Although sometimes hard to measure, I would like to think
that at least some part of that large community (and that of Lumiera
for that matter) have come as a result of these "marketing" efforts on
my part.

How many developers did you recruit?
[...]

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Wrong for the above reasons. Unfortunately many in the FOSS community
share your opinions and this needs to change.

It shouldn't change and it won't. Remember the 'F' in FOSS stands for
freedom. As soon as you want people to change their opinion, the basic
principle is lost.
My personal view of FOSS is that it's pure anarchy with all pros and
cons. Established rules from the corporate/business world simply don't

apply

Post by Burkhard Plaum
here. If you look at the motivations people have for working on FOSS
projects (and also at the projects temselves), you'll find an extremely
wide variety. People who don't like that diversity, should stay away.
People who want the community to develop is a certain direction, haven't
understood what freedom means. They should rather become politicians.
Burkhard
_______________________________________________
Lumiera mailing list
http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
http://lumiera.org/donations.html

--
Thanks,
Aaron Newcomb
http://www.thesourceshow.org
_______________________________________________
Lumiera mailing list
http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
http://lumiera.org/donations.html
_______________________________________________
Lumiera mailing list
http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
http://lumiera.org/donations.html

[Hudson Luce]

It's the part I've underlined, Aaron: FOSS *is* about anarchy, and anarchy is about "the creation of a society of free and
equal members based on a harmony of interests and the voluntary
participation of everybody in carrying out social responsibilities." In other words, FOSS is not about "marketing", "hype", "vaporware", "competition", "leaders", "experts", "producers", "consumers" et al. It's a different vision about how to do things, to live in society, to make software and hardware and the like. It's a totally different paradigm, so I guess it's no surprise you missed my point...

--- On Thu, 1/14/10, Aaron Newcomb <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Aaron Newcomb <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lumiera] New Open Source Video Editor
To: "General Discussion about Lumiera" <***@lists.lumiera.org>
Date: Thursday, January 14, 2010, 4:15 PM

Thanks for sharing your view of anarchy, but other than that I am afraid I missed your point. Sorry.

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Hudson Luce <***@yahoo.com> wrote:


Now you really stuck your foot in it, Aaron. Enrico Malatesta, in "Anarchy"(http://theanarchistlibrary.org/anarchy-0):

"Anarchists, including this writer, have used the word State, and
still do, to mean the sum total of the political, legislative,
judiciary, military and financial institutions through which the
management of their own affairs, the control over their personal
behaviour, the responsibility for their personal safety, are taken away
from the people and entrusted to others who, by usurpation or
delegation, are vested with the powers to make the laws for everything
and everybody, and to oblige the people to observe them, if need be, by
the use of collective force. In this sense the word State means government, or to put it another
way, it is the impersonal abstract expression of that state of affairs,
personified by government: and therefore the terms abolition of the
State, Society without the State, etc., describe exactly the concept
which anarchists seek to express, of the destruction of all political
order based on authority, and the creation of a society of free and
equal members based on a harmony of interests and the voluntary
participation of everybody in carrying out social responsibilities."

Anarchy does not mean chaos, nor disorder: "[T]he word anarchy was universally used in the sense of disorder and
confusion; and it is to this day used in that sense by the uninformed
as well as by political opponents with an interest in distorting the
truth. ... The existence of this prejudice and its influence on the public’s
definition of the word anarchy, is easily explained. Man, like all
living beings, adapts and accustoms himself to the conditions under
which he lives, and passes on acquired habits. Thus, having being born
and bred in bondage, when the descendants of a long line of slaves
started to think, they believed that slavery was an essential condition
of life, and freedom seemed impossible to them. Similarly, workers who
for centuries were obliged, and therefore accustomed, to depend for
work, that is bread, on the goodwill of the master, and to see their
lives always at the mercy of the owners of the land and of capital,
ended by believing that it is the master who feeds them, and
ingenuously ask one how would it be possible to live if there were no
masters."
--- On Thu, 1/14/10, Aaron Newcomb <***@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Aaron Newcomb <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lumiera] New Open Source Video Editor
To: "General Discussion about Lumiera" <***@lists.lumiera.org>

Date: Thursday, January 14, 2010, 3:35 PM

Sounds like we are getting hung up in semantics for the most part. I
sincerely hope your view of FOSS as anarchy is not shared by the wider

community. Otherwise we are all in trouble.

Cheers!

On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Burkhard Plaum

Post by Burkhard Plaum
Hi,

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Actually it is. I didn't say it

was impossible I just said it was very

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
unlikely. Also, a lot of the opinion on this point depends on your
definition of "marketing". Here is the dictionary.com definition ...
"the total of activities involved in the transfer of goods from the
producer or seller to the consumer or buyer, including advertising,
shipping, storing, and selling." The only thing different in this case
is that we are not selling anything. We are giving it away.

Ok, for me marketing has a purely commercial meaning.

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
ffmpeg makes hardly any marketing and has become
the defacto standard codec library.
libquicktime makes *zero* marketing and is used in a number of
professional movie production studios.

1) These libraries work well. 2) People talk about them (and the

projects that use them) in blogs, word of mouth, whatever. And 3) more

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
people use them.
#2 above is still part of the marketing process even though it may
have happened organically in these cases.

Yes, and that's the best and most efficient way to make a project popular..
For you it's a kind of marketing, I would call it word-of-mouth propaganda.
The difference is, that the independent opinion of users is much more
credible than what developers (or other people connected to a project) say.
And for that you need (see your point 1) something that works well in the
first place (and programmers who write it).

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
Cinelerra had little else than a website and has a large user community
by now.

Wow. I really have to disagree here. For myself I have done video
tutorials, Floss Weekly episodes, blog

posts and presentations at

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
conferences.

Yes, but you are not connected to the original cinelerra project. I know
that, because it's a one-man project. What you do (and it's good that you
do it) is no marketing for me.

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Although sometimes hard to measure, I would like to think
that at least some part of that large community (and that of Lumiera
for that matter) have come as a result of these "marketing" efforts on
my part.

How many developers did you recruit?
[...]

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Wrong for the above reasons. Unfortunately many in the FOSS community
share your opinions and this needs to change.

It shouldn't change and it won't. Remember the 'F' in FOSS stands for
freedom. As soon as you want people to change their opinion, the basic
principle is lost.
My

personal view of FOSS is that it's pure anarchy with all pros and

Post by Burkhard Plaum
cons. Established rules from the corporate/business world simply don't apply
here. If you look at the motivations people have for working on FOSS
projects (and also at the projects temselves), you'll find an extremely
wide variety. People who don't like that diversity, should stay away.
People who want the community to develop is a certain direction, haven't
understood what freedom means. They should rather become politicians.
Burkhard
_______________________________________________
Lumiera mailing list
http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
http://lumiera.org/donations.html

--
Thanks,
Aaron Newcomb
http://www.thesourceshow.org
_______________________________________________
Lumiera mailing list

***@lists.lumiera.org
http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera

http://lumiera.org/donations.html

_______________________________________________

Lumiera mailing list

***@lists.lumiera.org

http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera

http://lumiera.org/donations.html

[E Chalaron]

Are we done with this ???

Post by Hudson Luce
It's the part I've underlined, Aaron: FOSS *is* about anarchy, and
anarchy is about "the creation of a society of free and equal members
based on a harmony of interests and the voluntary participation of
everybody in carrying out social responsibilities." In other words,
FOSS is not about "marketing", "hype", "vaporware", "competition",
"leaders", "experts", "producers", "consumers" et al. It's a different
vision about how to do things, to live in society, to make software
and hardware and the like. It's a totally different paradigm, so I
guess it's no surprise you missed my point...
Subject: Re: [Lumiera] New Open Source Video Editor
Date: Thursday, January 14, 2010, 4:15 PM
Thanks for sharing your view of anarchy, but other than that I am
afraid I missed your point. Sorry.
Now you really stuck your foot in it, Aaron. Enrico Malatesta,
"Anarchists, including this writer, have used the word State,
and still do, to mean the sum total of the political,
legislative, judiciary, military and financial institutions
through which the management of their own affairs, the control
over their personal behaviour, the responsibility for their
personal safety, are taken away from the people and entrusted
to others who, by usurpation or delegation, are vested with
the powers to make the laws for everything and everybody, and
to oblige the people to observe them, if need be, by the use
of collective force. In this sense the word State means
government, or to put it another way, it is the impersonal
abstract expression of that state of affairs, personified by
government: and therefore the terms abolition of the State,
Society without the State, etc., describe exactly the concept
which anarchists seek to express, of the destruction of all
political order based on authority, and the creation of a
society of free and equal members based on a harmony of
interests and the voluntary participation of everybody in
carrying out social responsibilities."
Anarchy does not mean chaos, nor disorder: "[T]he word anarchy
was universally used in the sense of disorder and confusion;
and it is to this day used in that sense by the uninformed as
well as by political opponents with an interest in distorting
the truth. ... The existence of this prejudice and its
influence on the public’s definition of the word anarchy, is
easily explained. Man, like all living beings, adapts and
accustoms himself to the conditions under which he lives, and
passes on acquired habits. Thus, having being born and bred in
bondage, when the descendants of a long line of slaves started
to think, they believed that slavery was an essential
condition of life, and freedom seemed impossible to them.
Similarly, workers who for centuries were obliged, and
therefore accustomed, to depend for work, that is bread, on
the goodwill of the master, and to see their lives always at
the mercy of the owners of the land and of capital, ended by
believing that it is the master who feeds them, and
ingenuously ask one how would it be possible to live if there
were no masters."
Subject: Re: [Lumiera] New Open Source Video Editor
To: "General Discussion about Lumiera"
Date: Thursday, January 14, 2010, 3:35 PM
Sounds like we are getting hung up in semantics for the
most part. I
sincerely hope your view of FOSS as anarchy is not shared
by the wider
community. Otherwise we are all in trouble.
Cheers!
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Burkhard Plaum

Post by Burkhard Plaum
Hi,

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Actually it is. I didn't say it was impossible I just

said it was very

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
unlikely. Also, a lot of the opinion on this point

depends on your

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
definition of "marketing". Here is the dictionary.com

<http://dictionary.com> definition ...

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
"the total of activities involved in the transfer of

goods from the

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
producer or seller to the consumer or buyer, including

advertising,

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
shipping, storing, and selling." The only thing

different in this case

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
is that we are not selling anything. We are giving it away.

Ok, for me marketing has a purely commercial meaning.

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
ffmpeg makes hardly any marketing and has become
the defacto standard codec library.
libquicktime makes *zero* marketing and is used in a

number of

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
professional movie production studios.

1) These libraries work well. 2) People talk about them

(and the

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
projects that use them) in blogs, word of mouth,

whatever. And 3) more

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
people use them.
#2 above is still part of the marketing process even

though it may

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
have happened organically in these cases.

Yes, and that's the best and most efficient way to make

a project popular.

Post by Burkhard Plaum
For you it's a kind of marketing, I would call it

word-of-mouth propaganda.

Post by Burkhard Plaum
The difference is, that the independent opinion of users

is much more

Post by Burkhard Plaum
credible than what developers (or other people connected

to a project) say.

Post by Burkhard Plaum
And for that you need (see your point 1) something that

works well in the

Post by Burkhard Plaum
first place (and programmers who write it).

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
Cinelerra had little else than a website and has a

large user community

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb

Post by Burkhard Plaum
by now.

Wow. I really have to disagree here. For myself I have

done video

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
tutorials, Floss Weekly episodes, blog posts and

presentations at

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
conferences.

Yes, but you are not connected to the original cinelerra

project. I know

Post by Burkhard Plaum
that, because it's a one-man project.. What you do (and

it's good that you

Post by Burkhard Plaum
do it) is no marketing for me.

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Although sometimes hard to measure, I would like to think
that at least some part of that large community (and

that of Lumiera

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
for that matter) have come as a result of these

"marketing" efforts on

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
my part.

How many developers did you recruit?
[...]

Post by Aaron Newcomb
Wrong for the above reasons. Unfortunately many in the

FOSS community

Post by Burkhard Plaum

Post by Aaron Newcomb
share your opinions and this needs to change.

It shouldn't change and it won't. Remember the 'F' in

FOSS stands for

Post by Burkhard Plaum
freedom. As soon as you want people to change their

opinion, the basic

Post by Burkhard Plaum
principle is lost.
My personal view of FOSS is that it's pure anarchy with

all pros and

Post by Burkhard Plaum
cons. Established rules from the corporate/business

world simply don't apply

Post by Burkhard Plaum
here. If you look at the motivations people have for

working on FOSS

Post by Burkhard Plaum
projects (and also at the projects temselves), you'll

find an extremely

Post by Burkhard Plaum
wide variety. People who don't like that diversity,

should stay away.

Post by Burkhard Plaum
People who want the community to develop is a certain

direction, haven't

Post by Burkhard Plaum
understood what freedom means. They should rather become

politicians.

Post by Burkhard Plaum
Burkhard
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http://lumiera.org/donations.html

--
Thanks,
Aaron Newcomb
http://www.thesourceshow.org
_______________________________________________
Lumiera mailing list
http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
http://lumiera.org/donations.html
_______________________________________________
Lumiera mailing list
http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
http://lumiera.org/donations.html
--
Thanks,
Aaron Newcomb
http://www.thesourceshow.org
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[Burkhard Plaum]

Hi,

Post by E Chalaron
Are we done with this ???

[Ichthyostega]

Funny what kind of discussion one-sentence reply can trigger.

thanks for triggering it, Burkhard!

Cheers,
Hermann

[Brian Rytel]

Thanks for pointing that out.

Let's get back to the center of things, and summarize a bit:

1) Lumiera isn't at the stage for lots of publicity:
Planning "marketing" at this point is like organizing a house-warming party
while the architect is still drafting the plans.

2) The people who are likely to work on the project are pretty aware of it:
Lumiera isn't much of a secret. It's almost as easy to find as Cinelerra. I
find it unlikely that anyone with the skills or desire to help the project
is unable to contact us.

3) I think the terms "publicity", "marketing", "advertising" and "PR" are
easily confused, or understood differently by different regions (remember
we're international). So let me define them, and note that I have some
communications/marketing experience (as do some others here).

Marketing: I consider this a neutral term. It means: identifying the target
market (users) of a product (project) and then making them aware of it.
Public Representation: Usually the talking piece of a project, often one of
the lead developers. Think of Linus.
Publicity: Material and social interaction about the project, this would
include FROSCON, Lumiera's public site, this email list.
Advertising: This is the one tripping everyone up. Advertising is the act of
putting the product in the face of the market (users) often without
solicitation. ie: a television commercial or a web banner-ad, no one asks
you if you want to be advertised to. Often this also involves convincing the
market (users) that they want/need something they really don't.

Let's consider what the current market is and then what the projects market
is.

Our current market of interest is developers and programming-savvy users. We
need coders, and we need articulate people to add suggestions, test, and
brainstorm solutions.

In the future once the application is in a "beta" or better format, a second
market is added: end users. Unlike the other projects (OpenShot, kden, Kino)
Lumiera it targeted at professionals and advanced users, similar to Ardour.
Even those involved in Linux that fit this description may be unaware of the
project, and a little publicity in a Linux mag, on Slashdot, or the like
might broaden the audience a bit.

While we may technically adhere to an "anarchistic" paradigm, one must admit
that the more people the benefit from the hard work put into the software
the better, and also remember that there is a distinct lack of rules for
anarchy, so drawing attention in a subtle and sensitive way is by no means
"wrong".

B.J.M.R.

Post by Ichthyostega

Funny what kind of discussion one-sentence reply can trigger.

thanks for triggering it, Burkhard!
Cheers,
Hermann
_______________________________________________
Lumiera mailing list
http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
http://lumiera.org/donations.html

[Aaron Newcomb]

I think you summed it up well Brian. Too bad we didn't have an
off-topic list to shove this discussion into.

Post by Brian Rytel
Thanks for pointing that out.
Planning "marketing" at this point is like organizing a house-warming party
while the architect is still drafting the plans.
Lumiera isn't much of a secret. It's almost as easy to find as Cinelerra. I
find it unlikely that anyone with the skills or desire to help the project
is unable to contact us.
3) I think the terms "publicity", "marketing", "advertising" and "PR" are
easily confused, or understood differently by different regions (remember
we're international). So let me define them, and note that I have some
communications/marketing experience (as do some others here).
Marketing: I consider this a neutral term. It means: identifying the target
market (users) of a product (project) and then making them aware of it.
Public Representation: Usually the talking piece of a project, often one of
the lead developers. Think of Linus.
Publicity: Material and social interaction about the project, this would
include FROSCON, Lumiera's public site, this email list.
Advertising: This is the one tripping everyone up. Advertising is the act of
putting the product in the face of the market (users) often without
solicitation. ie: a television commercial or a web banner-ad, no one asks
you if you want to be advertised to. Often this also involves convincing the
market (users) that they want/need something they really don't.
Let's consider what the current market is and then what the projects market
is.
Our current market of interest is developers and programming-savvy users. We
need coders, and we need articulate people to add suggestions, test, and
brainstorm solutions.
In the future once the application is in a "beta" or better format, a second
market is added: end users. Unlike the other projects (OpenShot, kden, Kino)
Lumiera it targeted at professionals and advanced users, similar to Ardour.
Even those involved in Linux that fit this description may be unaware of the
project, and a little publicity in a Linux mag, on Slashdot, or the like
might broaden the audience a bit.
While we may technically adhere to an "anarchistic" paradigm, one must admit
that the more people the benefit from the hard work put into the software
the better, and also remember that there is a distinct lack of rules for
anarchy, so drawing attention in a subtle and sensitive way is by no means
"wrong".
B.J.M.R.

Post by Ichthyostega

Funny what kind of discussion one-sentence reply can trigger.

thanks for triggering it, Burkhard!
Cheers,
Hermann
_______________________________________________
Lumiera mailing list
http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
http://lumiera.org/donations.html

_______________________________________________
Lumiera mailing list
http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
http://lumiera.org/donations.html

[Brian Rytel]

Ultimately this is about Lumiera "our" project, and this is the general
discussion...
B.J.M.R.

Post by Aaron Newcomb
I think you summed it up well Brian. Too bad we didn't have an
off-topic list to shove this discussion into.

Post by Brian Rytel
Thanks for pointing that out.
Planning "marketing" at this point is like organizing a house-warming

party

Post by Brian Rytel
while the architect is still drafting the plans.
2) The people who are likely to work on the project are pretty aware of
Lumiera isn't much of a secret. It's almost as easy to find as Cinelerra.

I

Post by Brian Rytel
find it unlikely that anyone with the skills or desire to help the

project

Post by Brian Rytel
is unable to contact us.
3) I think the terms "publicity", "marketing", "advertising" and "PR" are
easily confused, or understood differently by different regions (remember
we're international). So let me define them, and note that I have some
communications/marketing experience (as do some others here).
Marketing: I consider this a neutral term. It means: identifying the

target

Post by Brian Rytel
market (users) of a product (project) and then making them aware of it.
Public Representation: Usually the talking piece of a project, often one

of

Post by Brian Rytel
the lead developers. Think of Linus.
Publicity: Material and social interaction about the project, this would
include FROSCON, Lumiera's public site, this email list.
Advertising: This is the one tripping everyone up. Advertising is the act

of

Post by Brian Rytel
putting the product in the face of the market (users) often without
solicitation. ie: a television commercial or a web banner-ad, no one asks
you if you want to be advertised to. Often this also involves convincing

the

Post by Brian Rytel
market (users) that they want/need something they really don't.
Let's consider what the current market is and then what the projects

market

Post by Brian Rytel
is.
Our current market of interest is developers and programming-savvy users.

We

Post by Brian Rytel
need coders, and we need articulate people to add suggestions, test, and
brainstorm solutions.
In the future once the application is in a "beta" or better format, a

second

Post by Brian Rytel
market is added: end users. Unlike the other projects (OpenShot, kden,

Kino)

Post by Brian Rytel
Lumiera it targeted at professionals and advanced users, similar to

Ardour.

Post by Brian Rytel
Even those involved in Linux that fit this description may be unaware of

the

Post by Brian Rytel
project, and a little publicity in a Linux mag, on Slashdot, or the like
might broaden the audience a bit.
While we may technically adhere to an "anarchistic" paradigm, one must

admit

Post by Brian Rytel
that the more people the benefit from the hard work put into the software
the better, and also remember that there is a distinct lack of rules for
anarchy, so drawing attention in a subtle and sensitive way is by no

means

Post by Brian Rytel
"wrong".
B.J.M.R.

Post by Ichthyostega

Funny what kind of discussion one-sentence reply can trigger.

thanks for triggering it, Burkhard!
Cheers,
Hermann
_______________________________________________
Lumiera mailing list
http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
http://lumiera.org/donations.html

_______________________________________________
Lumiera mailing list
http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
http://lumiera.org/donations.html

--
Thanks,
Aaron Newcomb
http://www.thesourceshow.org
_______________________________________________
Lumiera mailing list
http://lists.lumiera.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lumiera
http://lumiera.org/donations.html