Discussion:
Major new virus attack
(too old to reply)
dgs
2003-09-19 20:47:14 UTC
Permalink
I use a PC. I also use Microsoft Windows. However, I run and keep up
to date my anti-virus software. Don't tar all PC/Windows users with
the same brush.
It's not that: someone out there is reading this on a PC and thinking
"it can't possibly be me", while not having any (useful) AV software
installed. If that's you (in a general sense, not David), update your
AV software and *check*. *Now*. Don't assume it can't possibly be you.
Well, you and Philip Marsden have repeatedly encouraged them to assume
that any criticisms of their operating system, setup or practices are
solely due to narrow-minded RISC OS users whining unnecessarily about
Windows virus vulnerability (or power consumption, or UI, or stability, or
security in general, or whatever).

So it's hardly surprising that Windows users who view their computer
rather like their oven ("it works three times a week, so why should I
clean it more than six times a year?")... the result of the "let's get
everyone in Britain online" campaign... are blissfully unaware that their
computers are bombarding you, me and most people here with huge amounts of
rubbish.

After all, criticisms of Windows users or (especially) Windows are
normally "an incessant barrage" of unnecessary criticism, right?

Not something the pair of you have only raised here - actually you've been
talking about this on various RISC OS mailing lists as well (rather an
incessant barrage, I thought).

It looks like the Windows users believed you! Hence the result we see,
an incessant barrage indeed.

[ followups set, doubtless to be ignored ]
--
***@argonet.co.uk

"I currently also have a plan to design a Beowulf cluster based around
the Sinclair QL, but again I have hardware problems: I've only got one QL
and it's broken." - Frodo Morris
Steve Fryatt
2003-09-20 09:47:20 UTC
Permalink
On 19 Sep, dgs wrote in message
Post by dgs
I use a PC. I also use Microsoft Windows. However, I run and keep up
to date my anti-virus software. Don't tar all PC/Windows users with
the same brush.
It's not that: someone out there is reading this on a PC and thinking
"it can't possibly be me", while not having any (useful) AV software
installed. If that's you (in a general sense, not David), update your
AV software and *check*. *Now*. Don't assume it can't possibly be you.
Well, you and Philip Marsden have repeatedly encouraged them to assume
that any criticisms of their operating system, setup or practices are
solely due to narrow-minded RISC OS users whining unnecessarily about
Windows virus vulnerability (or power consumption, or UI, or stability,
or security in general, or whatever).
[snip a normal dgs-style diatribe]

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder there. I've never advocated that
we don't complain about Windows, merely that we apply the same standards
to both Windows and RISC OS.

A Windows machine with up-to-date AV software installed isn't likely to be
infected by Gibe (mine hasn't been, yet, despite it being my Internet
connection on Thursday and Friday as the emails poured in). Conversely,
there's nothing that I'm aware of (aside from a quick update to VProtect &
Killer) that is preventing a version of Gibe being written for RISC OS.
As I pointed out when Sobig-f was doing the rounds, all the email
addresses on my machine are held in the clear, in unprotected ASCII files.
Sending the emails isn't a problem and I'm quite certain that if RISC OS
was as popular as Windows we'd have our share of clueless users who would
happily run any attachment they were sent. We're 'safe' only because
there are so few of us left that no-one is writing viruses.

If I've missed some key technical point that would prevent a RISC OS
variant of Gibe being written, I'm sure you'll point it out with a clear
explanation.
Post by dgs
It looks like the Windows users believed you! Hence the result we see,
an incessant barrage indeed.
[ followups set, doubtless to be ignored ]
[Followups ignored for this message, to allow the right to reply to the
expected personal rant, but now re-set]
--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

* Sep 20 1962 - The Queen opened the Victoria Line from Walthamstow to
Victoria.
Tony Houghton
2003-09-20 14:15:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Fryatt
[snip a normal dgs-style diatribe]
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder there. I've never advocated that
we don't complain about Windows, merely that we apply the same standards
to both Windows and RISC OS.
I especially like the idea that the recent virus havoc is due to a
couple of people pointing out that RISC OS isn't, in fact, more stable
than Windows XP. :-)
--
Use Reply-To and DO NOT remove .nospam when replying
Steve Fryatt
2003-09-21 09:33:31 UTC
Permalink
On 20 Sep, Tony Houghton wrote in message
Post by Tony Houghton
Post by Steve Fryatt
[snip a normal dgs-style diatribe]
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder there. I've never advocated
that we don't complain about Windows, merely that we apply the same
standards to both Windows and RISC OS.
I especially like the idea that the recent virus havoc is due to a
couple of people pointing out that RISC OS isn't, in fact, more stable
than Windows XP. :-)
It's quite flattering to know that there are that many PC users reading
(and believing) my contributions to Archive on Line... :-)
--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

* The trouble with being punctual is that nobody's there to appreciate it.
dgs
2003-09-21 11:24:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Houghton
I especially like the idea that the recent virus havoc is due to a
couple of people pointing out that RISC OS isn't, in fact, more stable
than Windows XP. :-)
I don't think it is due to that. But nor is it due to lack of security
features on RISC OS (as at least one csa.misc subscriber has been told by
her Windows-using acquaintances).
--
***@argonet.co.uk | RISC OS user in London? http://www.jellybaby.net/rougol/

"Any description of Pluto which is disparaging is wrong." - John Cartmell
Jess
2003-09-21 11:11:59 UTC
Permalink
In message <***@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>
Steve Fryatt <***@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
[snip]
Post by Steve Fryatt
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder there. I've never advocated that
we don't complain about Windows, merely that we apply the same standards
to both Windows and RISC OS.
[snip]
Post by Steve Fryatt
If I've missed some key technical point that would prevent a RISC OS
variant of Gibe being written, I'm sure you'll point it out with a clear
explanation.
The key technical point being we don't have Outlook Express built into
RISC OS. We are safe from email viruses as long as we don't open
attachments. (And the attachments do not appear with one Icon and
behave as a different filetype as in Outlook)
--
Jess icq: 91353267 msn: ***@hotmail.com http://www.kentwebnet.com
Hotmail is my spam trap - don't use for email
mailto:***@itworkshop.uklinux.net
RISC OS 4.37 kinetic 64+128+2M Castle Storm DMA + 17GB 586-133 I-3 ADSL


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Steven Pampling
2003-09-21 11:51:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Fryatt
A Windows machine with up-to-date AV software installed isn't likely to
be infected by Gibe (mine hasn't been, yet, despite it being my Internet
connection on Thursday and Friday as the emails poured in).
Either you update daily, were lucky, or you're wrong and you have the
problem but don't know.
Post by Steve Fryatt
Conversely, there's nothing that I'm aware of (aside from a quick update
to VProtect & Killer) that is preventing a version of Gibe being written
for RISC OS.
Oooh, part of that could be handy - a module that offers smtp send to the
rest of the OS.

That isn't quite as novel an idea as it might seem - MS seem to have taken
apart the blaster/nachi virus and re-assembled it (plus MS bloat) as a
vulnerability scanner to check if a system has been patched against that
virus family.
--
What kind of insanity destroys fields
to replace what already exists?
Stop Rugby Airport now before it's too late...
Steve Pampling
Steve Fryatt
2003-09-21 16:18:24 UTC
Permalink
On 21 Sep, Steven Pampling wrote in message
Post by Steven Pampling
Post by Steve Fryatt
A Windows machine with up-to-date AV software installed isn't likely
to be infected by Gibe (mine hasn't been, yet, despite it being my
Internet connection on Thursday and Friday as the emails poured in).
Either you update daily, were lucky, or you're wrong and you have the
problem but don't know.
AVG, updated this weekend, indicates that I'm in the clear. I normally
update the protection twice a week; more frequently if I spot mention of a
new virus being on the loose. The large quantities of "MS Updates"
arriving on Thursday, which were a different size from usual, suggested
that an immediate AV update might be a good plan.
--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

* "When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands
explained." - Mark Twain
Steven Pampling
2003-09-21 20:22:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Fryatt
On 21 Sep, Steven Pampling wrote in message
Post by Steven Pampling
Post by Steve Fryatt
A Windows machine with up-to-date AV software installed isn't likely
to be infected by Gibe (mine hasn't been, yet, despite it being my
Internet connection on Thursday and Friday as the emails poured in).
Either you update daily, were lucky, or you're wrong and you have the
problem but don't know.
AVG, updated this weekend, indicates that I'm in the clear. I normally
update the protection twice a week; more frequently if I spot mention of
a new virus being on the loose. The large quantities of "MS Updates"
arriving on Thursday, which were a different size from usual, suggested
that an immediate AV update might be a good plan.
Enhanced luck then :-)

Lucky that you used a braincell or two to do an update slightly quicker
than might have been the case in normal circumstances...
--
What kind of insanity destroys fields
to replace what already exists?
Stop Rugby Airport now before it's too late...
Steve Pampling
Lionel Smith
2003-09-21 21:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Fryatt
The large quantities of "MS Updates"
arriving on Thursday, which were a different size from usual, suggested
that an immediate AV update might be a good plan.
From what I see the reverse happens;

Norton Upgrades Automatically at log on and during a 36 hour period near
the end of last week it upgraded three times. Then a MS upgrade announced
itself sometime later. This only about a week after the last MS hole fix.

Lionel
--
___ ______
/ / / ___/ 4 children | Sea Vixen for pugnacity
/ / ionel A.| \ mith 7 grandchildren, | Hunter for elegance
/ /____ __\ | no wonder life is a breeze | Phantom for clout
/_______/ /_____/ http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/lionels | ZFC B+4+3

Get a better OutLook on life - use something else. ;-)
Tony Houghton
2003-09-22 11:46:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Fryatt
AVG, updated this weekend, indicates that I'm in the clear. I normally
update the protection twice a week; more frequently if I spot mention of a
new virus being on the loose. The large quantities of "MS Updates"
arriving on Thursday, which were a different size from usual, suggested
that an immediate AV update might be a good plan.
Unfortunately certain AV programs just make it worse by broadcasting
warnings and bouncing the spam to the innocent victim whose address has
been forged when they think they've detected a virus.

A csa.* reader is infected judging by the Cc's in a couple of "warnings"
I got today. That's the only trouble I've had, despammed must be getting
rid of the rest.
--
Use Reply-To and DO NOT remove .nospam when replying
Phillip Marsden
2003-09-21 12:14:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by dgs
I use a PC. I also use Microsoft Windows. However, I run and keep up
to date my anti-virus software. Don't tar all PC/Windows users with
the same brush.
It's not that: someone out there is reading this on a PC and thinking
"it can't possibly be me", while not having any (useful) AV software
installed. If that's you (in a general sense, not David), update your
AV software and *check*. *Now*. Don't assume it can't possibly be you.
Well, you and Philip Marsden have repeatedly encouraged them to assume
that any criticisms of their operating system, setup or practices are
solely due to narrow-minded RISC OS users whining unnecessarily about
Windows virus vulnerability (or power consumption, or UI, or stability, or
security in general, or whatever).
So it's hardly surprising that Windows users who view their computer
rather like their oven ("it works three times a week, so why should I
clean it more than six times a year?")... the result of the "let's get
everyone in Britain online" campaign... are blissfully unaware that their
computers are bombarding you, me and most people here with huge amounts of
rubbish.
After all, criticisms of Windows users or (especially) Windows are
normally "an incessant barrage" of unnecessary criticism, right?
Not something the pair of you have only raised here - actually you've been
talking about this on various RISC OS mailing lists as well (rather an
incessant barrage, I thought).
It looks like the Windows users believed you! Hence the result we see,
an incessant barrage indeed.
[ followups set, doubtless to be ignored ]
First, may I thank you for re-directing this topic to advocacy. I have
recently taken the decision to read only the advocacy and announcement lists.
I have realised that (in common with other news groups/mailing lists) csa is
extremely bigoted to the extent that "if you are not with us, then you are
against us". Reasonable discussion about many topics is well-nigh impossible
(and we all thought that religion causes many problems), and so I have decided
to "get a life" and retire from these discussions. Therefore, if you (the
general you) wish to continue on your merry path of making remarks about
non-RISC OS systems without me making a reasoned counter-argument, then simply
don't put it on advocacy. I wish you well. :o)

I feel that you are distorting things somewhat about what I have commented
upon. You aren't by any chance trying to stir things are you? :o)

What I find disturbing is the attitude that many Windows users are morons who
are incapable of using their brains, never mind their computers, and it these
people who are responsible for the explosion of spam/virus problems. There have
been many comments made about how the average RISC OS user is much better
informed than the average (moronic) Windows user. Given the relative size of
the two markets, this would not be surprising. However, it is my experience
that the average RISC OS user is no more computerate than the average Windows
user, if you were to remove from the equation the vast numbers of people who
are using Windows as a tool for their employer. Most of these people have no
intention of learning the minutae of how their computer works, and who can
blame them? It is up to the same employer who insists that they use computers
to ensure that those computers cannot be misused.

Windows computers are sold as a commodity item, and it is unfortunate that
they are not designed as a commodity item, so that the average user cannot go
wrong. This is a flaw in the design. It does make me wonder how the average
RISC OS user would cope with all the problems that face a Windows user. One
only has to look at the questions that are asked about spam email, for
instance, to realise that RISC OS users are no more computer literate than
Windows users.

On the point of the famed RISC OS ability to resist virus problems because it
is not possible to execute a RISC OS program remotely(1), one has to ask
whether this was intentional or through inability. If the RISC OS designers
had incorporated this ability to execute programs from a remote computer, then
RISC OS would have been in the same position as Windows, and in need of a
security re-write. It has to be remembered that Unix/Linux has this ability
but, due to the design of the operating system, it is much more difficult to
compromise a Unix system than a Windows system.

I feel that I must re-iterate my long-held view that it is about time that the
RISC OS sector (in general) climbed down from its mountain-top of arrogance in
thinking that RISC OS is superior in every way to others, particularly
Windows. RISC OS is different, it has some advantages (such as a nice GUI),
but not overwhelmingly superior to other systems, as some would have us
believe.


(1) Please note that I have no knowledge of this one way or the other, other
than what I read on these newsgroups.
--
Regards, Phillip Marsden.
druck
2003-09-21 13:41:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Marsden
What I find disturbing is the attitude that many Windows users are morons
who are incapable of using their brains, never mind their computers, and it
these people who are responsible for the explosion of spam/virus problems.
And your proof that they aren't is?

1) Similar vrirus have been around for the last 6 mix months
2) PC users have been repeatedly told by the media about the general problem
3) and specifically that Microsoft dont sent patches via email
4) and dont click on uknown attchements in email
5) and they should follow the update proceedure for patches that have been
around for months or years in some cases.
6) and they need to pay the AV parasite tax for using such crap machines

If after all that they are too stupid to realise what is going on, they need
the computer taken away from them - the say way that after causing a pile up
by driving the wrong way up a dual carridge way they have their licence taken
away - saying they were too stupid to look up what a no entry sign meant wont
cut it.

My life is being made hell by the stupid pig ignorant PC users using
criminally insecure Micrsoft machines to kill a vital form of communications,
and I really dont need the likes of you comming along and defending their
right to be a morons and Microsoft for writing crap operating systems.

And to top it all off you start calling all RISC OS users names, and have a
dig at an operating system which has never been responsible for any form of
mass denial of service attack against the internet

If that makes me a bigot, so be it, perhasps you'll reconsider subscribing
csa.advocacy too.

---druck
--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
Evpuneq Erivf
2003-09-21 20:51:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
And to top it all off you start calling all RISC OS users names, and
have a dig at an operating system which has never been responsible for
any form of mass denial of service attack against the internet
I have some suspicions that were every RiscOS machine in the world to be
controlled at once and used in a DDoS the result may be unnoticable by
even a medium traffic webhost. One needs to compromise only a tiny
percentage of Windows hosts to achieve a far greater affect.

I agree with you that as a rule there are plenty of very inexperienced
and/or ignorant Windows users who by and large are the reason that viruses
get to critical mass. However I would disagree with you that RiscOS
security is much more than security through obscurity and were we in a
RiscOS monoculture there would be as many attacks as there are against
Windows.

I have seen little evidence of user permissions, sandboxing processes,
aggressive security audits, kernel integrity protection, intrusion
detection systems, code injection protection, modularisation etc that make
the free UNIX-like systems secure by design as opposed to secure because
no one is writing exploit code for the system in RiscOS. (Up to a point,
there will always be holes in software, obviously, and Linux/BSD/Darwin et
al are not immune to human error.)

Arrogantly assuming that you are better than Windows users is not a great
thing, especially when you aren't in the number one slot in that area ;o)
There are and have been plenty of viruses for RiscOS, and I am sure that
there will be more in the future.
Phillip Marsden
2003-09-22 12:42:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
If after all that they are too stupid to realise what is going on, they need
the computer taken away from them - the say way that after causing a pile up
by driving the wrong way up a dual carridge way they have their licence taken
away - saying they were too stupid to look up what a no entry sign meant wont
cut it.
Coming from someone who knowingly drove at high speed round a blind bend the
wrong way round the Wakefield Show hall at this year's show, this is a bit
rich!
Post by druck
My life is being made hell by the stupid pig ignorant PC users using
criminally insecure Micrsoft machines to kill a vital form of communications,
and I really dont need the likes of you comming along and defending their
right to be a morons and Microsoft for writing crap operating systems.
And to top it all off you start calling all RISC OS users names, and have a
dig at an operating system which has never been responsible for any form of
mass denial of service attack against the internet
Well, you certainly do get yourself tied in knots don't you? I have not
"called all RISC OS users names". I have said that they are no more computer
literate than Windows users. You really must not judge others by your own
standards. You ARE computer literate. You have to recognise that, certainly
in the RISC OS field, you are at or near the top of the tree in computer
knowledge and awareness. The great majority of RISC OS users do not have your
skills or computer literacy. Do not make the mistake of thinking that all RISC
OS users are like you. On the other hand, you appear to do just what you
accused me of doing - lumping all Windows users together at the same level of
stupidity.

You miss the point that I made about many Windows users who are simply using
the computer as a tool for their employer. It is the responsibility of the
employers to ensure that these people cannot fall foul of the spammers,
perhaps by ensuring that all mail coming into the company system are inspected
before the end-user gets them. These sort of users must surely make up the
bulk of Windows users.

The people who buy Windows computers as a commodity item, perhaps for
spreadsheet work (for example) and email are a different problem. Should they
be accused of mis-using a system for which they are not responsible? They
simply wish to send an email to a friend, a relative. That there are people
out there (spammers, hackers) who will mis-use the system is not their fault.
Perhaps the people who designed the system should be called to book? In the
meantime, the companies who run the system and make profit from it should
perhaps be expected to do a lot more. This could be done by taking out the
obvious spams, the virus carriers. They offer to do it for extra money, so the
technology is there. Perhaps they should be doing it anyway for the money that
they already take from the punters. By doing this at source, the remainder of
the network will be much less loaded, leading to a more pleasant experience.

This may not be possible as, I hope you aware, spammers in the USA are
preparing to go to court over steps to reduce their "freedom of speech" and
"right to carry on their business". Compared with these people, the
un-initiated Windows users are not a problem.

Just another point of view.
--
Regards, Phillip Marsden.
druck
2003-09-22 16:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Marsden
Post by druck
If after all that they are too stupid to realise what is going on, they
need the computer taken away from them - the say way that after causing a
pile up by driving the wrong way up a dual carridge way they have their
licence taken away - saying they were too stupid to look up what a no
entry sign meant wont cut it.
Coming from someone who knowingly drove at high speed round a blind bend
the wrong way round the Wakefield Show hall at this year's show, this is a
bit rich!
I dont recall that. I went the same way round the back of the hall as always,
and I wouldn't be going that fast as I have more respect for my suspension.
Post by Phillip Marsden
Post by druck
My life is being made hell by the stupid pig ignorant PC users using
criminally insecure Micrsoft machines to kill a vital form of
communications,
Well, you certainly do get yourself tied in knots don't you? I have not
"called all RISC OS users names". I have said that they are no more
computer literate than Windows users. You really must not judge others by
your own standards. You ARE computer literate. You have to recognise that,
certainly in the RISC OS field, you are at or near the top of the tree in
computer knowledge and awareness. The great majority of RISC OS users do
not have your skills or computer literacy. Do not make the mistake of
thinking that all RISC OS users are like you. On the other hand, you appear
to do just what you accused me of doing - lumping all Windows users
together at the same level of stupidity.
Knots? Why for a start are we talking about RISC OS users? They are not the
ones denying use of my email accounts.
Post by Phillip Marsden
You miss the point that I made about many Windows users who are simply
using the computer as a tool for their employer. It is the responsibility
of the employers to ensure that these people cannot fall foul of the
spammers, perhaps by ensuring that all mail coming into the company system
are inspected before the end-user gets them. These sort of users must
surely make up the bulk of Windows users.
The vast majority of corperate systems will have taken measures to protect
themselves from such viri, the machines responsive for these attacks are
owned by home users given the usage patterns.
Post by Phillip Marsden
The people who buy Windows computers as a commodity item, perhaps for
spreadsheet work (for example) and email are a different problem. Should
they be accused of mis-using a system for which they are not responsible?
They simply wish to send an email to a friend, a relative. That there are
people out there (spammers, hackers) who will mis-use the system is not
their fault.
I don't care why they are using the machine, its is there responsibility to
take all appropriate actions to prevent denial of service to others, or they
should forfit their right to own a machine.
Post by Phillip Marsden
Perhaps the people who designed the system should be called to book?
I think I've made my oppinion on Micrsofts role in this very clear!
Post by Phillip Marsden
In the meantime, the companies who run the system and make profit
from it should perhaps be expected to do a lot more. This could be done by
taking out the obvious spams, the virus carriers. They offer to do it for
extra money, so the technology is there. Perhaps they should be doing it
anyway for the money that they already take from the punters. By doing this
at source, the remainder of the network will be much less loaded, leading
to a more pleasant experience.
I'll agree with you 100% there.
Post by Phillip Marsden
This may not be possible as, I hope you aware, spammers in the USA are
preparing to go to court over steps to reduce their "freedom of speech" and
"right to carry on their business". Compared with these people, the
un-initiated Windows users are not a problem.
Except when these users machine are being hijacked by spammers to sent junk,
first via open relays, and now via more insideous routes such as viruses and
worms installing backdoors.

---druck
--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
Tony Houghton
2003-09-22 19:02:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
Except when these users machine are being hijacked by spammers to sent junk,
first via open relays, and now via more insideous routes such as viruses and
worms installing backdoors.
Most RISC OS mail programs provide open relays by default until
configured otherwise, or at least they used to, but the more sensible
ones have probably had that loophole closed in these troubled times. So
it's not just a Windows problem.
--
Use Reply-To and DO NOT remove .nospam when replying
druck
2003-09-22 21:08:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
Except when these users machine are being hijacked by spammers to sent
junk, first via open relays, and now via more insideous routes such as
viruses and worms installing backdoors.
Most RISC OS mail programs provide open relays by default until configured
otherwise, or at least they used to, but the more sensible ones have
probably had that loophole closed in these troubled times. So it's not just
a Windows problem.
Tony thats rubbish and you know it.

Only the specific combination of the ANT Suite setup to receive email via
SMTP and Marcel set to automatically forward email could be exploited. Other
mail programs work via POP or IMAP and dont act as relays.

---druck
--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
Tony Houghton
2003-09-22 22:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
Most RISC OS mail programs provide open relays by default until configured
otherwise, or at least they used to, but the more sensible ones have
probably had that loophole closed in these troubled times. So it's not just
a Windows problem.
Tony thats rubbish and you know it.
No, it's true.
Post by druck
Only the specific combination of the ANT Suite setup to receive email via
SMTP and Marcel set to automatically forward email could be exploited.
Which I'm sure it used to do automatically until it was realised that
open relays were exploitable. And the combination of Marcel, ANT suite
and Demon (meaning SMTP receive is enabled) is hardly rare.

And it isn't the only off-the-shelf RISC OS software that provided an
open relay by default. Termite did it. I bet KA9Q+Newsbase did too.
Post by druck
Other mail programs work via POP or IMAP and dont act as relays.
Now you are talking rubbish. All mail programs that I know of use SMTP
for sending, and most have options for SMTP receive, because of the
historic popularity of Demon.

I thought covering up bugs and problems was the sort of behaviour you
deplored in Microsoft. But because you're "defending" RISC OS you think
it's perfectly OK.
--
Use Reply-To and DO NOT remove .nospam when replying
pv
2003-09-23 07:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Houghton
No, it's true.
Total rubbish! Please name more than one RISC OS application which can act
as an open relay.
It was an intentional 'feature' of the Ant Suite because the Ant Suite is
capable of running as a mail server, so is designed for that if you don't
set it up properly.
You should use POP for receiving mail and SMTP only for sending mail,
unless you have adequate firewall or security software in place to prevent
open SMTP relays through it.
Post by Tony Houghton
Which I'm sure it used to do automatically until it was realised that
open relays were exploitable. And the combination of Marcel, ANT suite
and Demon (meaning SMTP receive is enabled) is hardly rare.
It was designed to do it automatically. The Ant Suite was a local mail
server which forwarded mail to local users (which could be local or
offsite). This was actually explained in the manual, and discussed to death
on the Ant Chat mailing list.
Post by Tony Houghton
And it isn't the only off-the-shelf RISC OS software that provided an
open relay by default. Termite did it. I bet KA9Q+Newsbase did too.
I don't believe they did!
Post by Tony Houghton
Now you are talking rubbish. All mail programs that I know of use SMTP
for sending, and most have options for SMTP receive, because of the
historic popularity of Demon.
It depends if they're capable of running as a local mail server though. A
lot don't.
Post by Tony Houghton
I thought covering up bugs and problems was the sort of behaviour you
deplored in Microsoft. But because you're "defending" RISC OS you think
it's perfectly OK.
Technically (if you're being pedantic) it wasn't a bug. It was a deliberate
feature of the Ant Suite - just that a lot of people weren't aware of it,
and didn't turn it off. Probably no more of a criticism than blaming OE for
having daft default settings, which the user may not know about changing!
--
__\\|//__ Life,
(` o-o ') the Universe
---- www.segfault.co.uk ------ooO-(_)-Ooo------ & Everything ------

Posted using a RISC OS computer - 100% immune to all email viruses.

Always try to be modest and be proud of it!
Evpuneq Erivf
2003-09-23 14:37:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by pv
You should use POP for receiving mail and SMTP only for sending mail,
unless you have adequate firewall or security software in place to prevent
open SMTP relays through it.
You don't prevent an open relay with firewalls or security software
(although you can use a firewall to stop untrusted hosts talking to it,
it's not recommended practice for a large number of reasons) but instead
using rulesets in the MTA.

This also has the advantage of letting you use SMTP to recieve mail from
the global internet, which firewall rules will not.
Tony Houghton
2003-09-23 14:28:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by pv
Post by Tony Houghton
No, it's true.
Total rubbish! Please name more than one RISC OS application which can act
as an open relay.
I just did and you said you didn't believe it.
Post by pv
It was an intentional 'feature' of the Ant Suite because the Ant Suite is
capable of running as a mail server, so is designed for that if you don't
set it up properly.
You should use POP for receiving mail and SMTP only for sending mail,
unless you have adequate firewall or security software in place to prevent
open SMTP relays through it.
As the other poster said, open relays are nothing to do with firewalls
or extra security software. It's a matter of configuring the MTA
correctly. I'm glad I'm not using your ISP.
Post by pv
Post by Tony Houghton
And it isn't the only off-the-shelf RISC OS software that provided an
open relay by default. Termite did it. I bet KA9Q+Newsbase did too.
I don't believe they did!
Termite definitely did, it got me caught in a loop once because someone
else had signed up his dynamic IP to a mailing list then the IP got
reassigned to me. I had Termite configured to use POP, but it had left
SMTP receive enabled.

The thing is, in those days open relays and spam weren't really a
problem, relaying was seen as helpful to try to get stray emails to the
right destination.
Post by pv
Post by Tony Houghton
Now you are talking rubbish. All mail programs that I know of use SMTP
for sending, and most have options for SMTP receive, because of the
historic popularity of Demon.
It depends if they're capable of running as a local mail server though. A
lot don't.
I think they are capable if they want to attract old Demon customers.
Demon probably had more (Acorn) users than all the other ISPs put
together at the time some of these programs were first written.
Post by pv
Post by Tony Houghton
I thought covering up bugs and problems was the sort of behaviour you
deplored in Microsoft. But because you're "defending" RISC OS you think
it's perfectly OK.
Technically (if you're being pedantic) it wasn't a bug. It was a deliberate
feature of the Ant Suite - just that a lot of people weren't aware of it,
and didn't turn it off. Probably no more of a criticism than blaming OE for
having daft default settings, which the user may not know about changing!
I said bug or problem. It isn't a bug, no, it's a feature that was once
helpful that's become a problem because of spammers, but that doesn't
stop it being a problem.
--
Use Reply-To and DO NOT remove .nospam when replying
Evpuneq Erivf
2003-09-23 18:36:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Houghton
I think they are capable if they want to attract old Demon customers.
Demon probably had more (Acorn) users than all the other ISPs put
together at the time some of these programs were first written.
Zen Internet offer DSL customers SMTP recieve for mail for free. If you
want them to backup the mail spool and gaurente that you miss nothing*
then you need to pay through the nose for it though. I believe A&A offer
something similar.

*If your connection is down for longer than max_retries, it'll bounce, as
per RFCs. BT are good at making this happen.
Glenn Richards
2003-09-26 13:46:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by pv
You should use POP for receiving mail and SMTP only for sending mail,
unless you have adequate firewall or security software in place to
prevent open SMTP relays through it.
You should NOT use POP for receiving mail for multiple users on a single
site. It creates more headaches than you can imagine in a lifetime.

If you firewall port 25, you won't receive any mail.

*All* you need to do is set up your "allow relaying from" option in your
MTA to cover your local subnet, and nothing else. For example, on my old
setup (using NAT on a single Demon account) I set it to 1.0.128.0/24 -
meaning that any host with an IP starting 1.0.128 could relay out
through the mail server. (Yes, I ran AUN on that network.).

Now I have a /25, so I've changed it to 81.168.49.128/25 - meaning that
any host in that IP range (128-155) can relay out. Spoofing the IPs to
exploit this will not work, as SMTP runs over TCP, and is a two-way
protocol. If the IP is spoofed, a TCP connection cannot be established.

Exim has the right idea. Relaying is prohibited from everything except
localhost 127.0.0.1 by default. If you want to enable mail relay, you
have to configure it manually. (Not difficult.)
--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrel-net.co.uk/

"Growing old is compulsory. Growing UP is optional." -- Anon
druck
2003-09-22 23:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Houghton
Post by druck
Post by Tony Houghton
Most RISC OS mail programs provide open relays by default until
configured otherwise, or at least they used to, but the more sensible
ones have probably had that loophole closed in these troubled times. So
it's not just a Windows problem.
Tony thats rubbish and you know it.
No, it's true.
Post by druck
Only the specific combination of the ANT Suite setup to receive email via
SMTP and Marcel set to automatically forward email could be exploited.
Which I'm sure it used to do automatically until it was realised that
open relays were exploitable. And the combination of Marcel, ANT suite
and Demon (meaning SMTP receive is enabled) is hardly rare.
Demon is one of only a tiny number of ISP's which use SMTP send. Try naming
some others.
Post by Tony Houghton
And it isn't the only off-the-shelf RISC OS software that provided an
open relay by default. Termite did it. I bet KA9Q+Newsbase did too.
Who uses these? They were superceeded long before anyone knew what an open
relay was, never mind exploited it.
Post by Tony Houghton
Post by druck
Other mail programs work via POP or IMAP and dont act as relays.
Now you are talking rubbish. All mail programs that I know of use SMTP
for sending, and most have options for SMTP receive, because of the
historic popularity of Demon.
Stop bullshitting, and give examples, other than the one I've already given
you.
Post by Tony Houghton
I thought covering up bugs and problems was the sort of behaviour you
deplored in Microsoft. But because you're "defending" RISC OS you think
it's perfectly OK.
I'm not defending the one case which could be exploited, you on the other
hand are trying to suggest that "Most RISC OS mail programs provide open
relays" which is utter total bollocks, end of story.

If you want to continue with this nonsense, you'll be doing it on your own.

---druck
--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
Tony Houghton
2003-09-23 18:42:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
Post by Tony Houghton
Which I'm sure it used to do automatically until it was realised that
open relays were exploitable. And the combination of Marcel, ANT suite
and Demon (meaning SMTP receive is enabled) is hardly rare.
Demon is one of only a tiny number of ISP's which use SMTP send. Try naming
some others.
Many of the better ADSL providers will if asked, and in some cases prove
that you're not running a relay. Eg Nildram, Zen. Some experienced users
who leave their PCs on all the time prefer it that way. Some end users
even set up DNS and MX records to point straight to their machines,
bypassing their ISP's mail server altogether. Even then they may have to
ask the ISP to open port 25 for them.
Post by druck
Post by Tony Houghton
Now you are talking rubbish. All mail programs that I know of use SMTP
for sending, and most have options for SMTP receive, because of the
historic popularity of Demon.
Stop bullshitting, and give examples, other than the one I've already given
you.
LOL, you really are a complete moron. I wrote POPstar, remember? Have
you also told Mark Sawle and JSD that one of the vital features of
Messenger Pro and Pluto doesn't exist. How about Stewart Brodie? Does he
realise that !FreeSMTP doesn't exist at all?
Post by druck
Post by Tony Houghton
I thought covering up bugs and problems was the sort of behaviour you
deplored in Microsoft. But because you're "defending" RISC OS you think
it's perfectly OK.
I'm not defending the one case which could be exploited, you on the other
hand are trying to suggest that "Most RISC OS mail programs provide open
relays" which is utter total bollocks, end of story.
But you claimed that the "one case" was only an open relay if
deliberately enabled, which wasn't true, and that it was the only
program capable of relaying, which also isn't true.

You've had to take my quote out of context to make it overly sweeping,
and even then you're incapable of any true or intelligent comment on it.
Post by druck
If you want to continue with this nonsense, you'll be doing it on your own.
There can't be any nonsense without your input.
--
Use Reply-To and DO NOT remove .nospam when replying
Richard Porter
2003-09-23 21:02:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
Tony thats rubbish and you know it.
Post by Tony Houghton
No, it's true.
Now you are talking rubbish.
Stop bullshitting
Post by Tony Houghton
sort of behaviour you deplored
utter total bollocks, end of story.
If you want to continue with this nonsense, you'll be doing it on your own.
Post by Tony Houghton
you're incapable of any true or intelligent comment
There can't be any nonsense without your input.
pv> Total rubbish!
Post by druck
Post by Tony Houghton
complete morons who shouldn't be allowed near computers
Hey guys, any chance of a civilised debate?

Oh well, is there a boxing ring at Guildford then?
--
Richard Porter
Mail to username ricp at domain minijem.plus.com
"You can't have Windows without pains."
Steven Pampling
2003-09-22 19:24:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
The vast majority of corperate systems will have taken measures to
protect themselves from such viri, the machines responsive for these
attacks are owned by home users given the usage patterns.
Does two levels of virus checking and a passworded remote exec patch
distribution system (only patching after tests show it does prove worse
than the attack) count as "measures"?

Interesting state of affairs with firewalls too - you'd need to pass three
to get to some of the systems from outside (might be more but I don't know
the extent of firewalling on the route from the internet)

Who you calling paranoid?? :-)
--
What kind of insanity destroys fields
to replace what already exists?
Stop Rugby Airport now before it's too late...
Steve Pampling
Phillip Marsden
2003-09-23 08:34:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
Post by Phillip Marsden
Post by druck
If after all that they are too stupid to realise what is going on, they
need the computer taken away from them - the say way that after causing a
pile up by driving the wrong way up a dual carridge way they have their
licence taken away - saying they were too stupid to look up what a no
entry sign meant wont cut it.
Coming from someone who knowingly drove at high speed round a blind bend
the wrong way round the Wakefield Show hall at this year's show, this is a
bit rich!
I dont recall that. I went the same way round the back of the hall as always,
and I wouldn't be going that fast as I have more respect for my suspension.
Perhaps you don't recollect it, but both I and the security man on the main
gate were astounded by your action. That was the reason why I had to put cones
across that exit, in order to protect other exhibitors leaving by that exit
from your actions should you have been inclined to repeat it. Forgive me for
bringing this up in this context, but it was to illustrate that even someone
like yourself can and does do things incorrectly. (Before anyone brings up the
point: no, I am not perfect either!).
Post by druck
Knots? Why for a start are we talking about RISC OS users? They are not the
ones denying use of my email accounts.
The reason why they were brought into the discussion was because of the
attitude of more than one poster calling Windows users (in general) computer
illiterate and moronic. I was pointing out that, in my experience, RISC OS
users are no more computer literate than Windows users. I am trying to balance
things a little, as some people would get the idea that all Windows users are
morons, and all RISC OS users are angels, and this is obviously not the case.
Post by druck
Post by Phillip Marsden
Perhaps the people who designed the system should be called to book?
I think I've made my oppinion on Micrsofts role in this very clear!
The people I had in mind were the designers of the email system running on the
internet. Perhaps they were idealistic in thinking that people would keep to a
set of written protocols. Naive is the word that I would use, as in many cases
people do what they like unless physically restrained or from fear of
punishment by the rest of society.
Post by druck
Post by Phillip Marsden
In the meantime, the companies who run the system and make profit
from it should perhaps be expected to do a lot more. This could be done by
taking out the obvious spams, the virus carriers. They offer to do it for
extra money, so the technology is there. Perhaps they should be doing it
anyway for the money that they already take from the punters. By doing this
at source, the remainder of the network will be much less loaded, leading
to a more pleasant experience.
I'll agree with you 100% there.
See, we can agree on some things. There is hope for the world yet! :o)
--
Regards, Phillip Marsden.
Evpuneq Erivf
2003-09-23 14:34:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Marsden
The people I had in mind were the designers of the email system running
on the internet. Perhaps they were idealistic in thinking that people
would keep to a set of written protocols. Naive is the word that I would
use, as in many cases people do what they like unless physically
restrained or from fear of punishment by the rest of society.
The internet email system wasn't so much designed as evolved. Dirty little
hacks were put in place all over the show to add new functionality and
remove the worst parts of the 'features' that were causing problems.

E-mail system development is mirrored by sendmail, more or less (mostly
less), and it's quite amusing reading the diffs between versions to see
what they had to do to meet changing circumstances as the whole carachter
and methodology of the internet changed.

<tinfoil hat>Besides, the last thing we want now is a complete change to
e-mail - we wold end up with something horribly like AOL e-mail which
needed a Windows e-mail client that supported DRM, that was managed from a
permissions server in Redmond.</tinfoil hat> What we really need is a
magor rewrite of OE and Windows (or just chuck the stinking codebase away
and release MS Linux heh). Stop the viruses and the number of open relays
will drop, and we will be back to a managable level of spam again.
dgs
2003-09-22 18:05:39 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@btinternet.com>,
Phillip Marsden <***@btinternet.com> wrote:

...
However, it is my experience that the average RISC OS user is no more
computerate than the average Windows user, if you were to remove from
the equation the vast numbers of people who are using Windows as a tool
for their employer.
In that case, your experience of RISC OS and Windows users differs vastly
from that of myself, and indeed that of a great many other users who
contribute to the Acorn newsgroups.

This substantial difference may help to explain why the viewpoints of some
posters to these newsgroups seem so alien to you.
--
***@argonet.co.uk | RISC OS user near London? http://www.jellybaby.net/rougol/

' So. If Posty isn't used, it's unlikely to go wrong, then. '
- VinceH
Tony Houghton
2003-09-22 19:24:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by dgs
...
However, it is my experience that the average RISC OS user is no more
computerate than the average Windows user, if you were to remove from
the equation the vast numbers of people who are using Windows as a tool
for their employer.
In that case, your experience of RISC OS and Windows users differs vastly
from that of myself, and indeed that of a great many other users who
contribute to the Acorn newsgroups.
Strange, considering RISC OS is sold under the banner of being easier to
use than Windows.

How many Windows users do you know that get confused between faxes and
emails?

How many Windows users do you know that think they get good value from
an ISP that charges a subscription on top of billed phone-calls just
because it claims to support their platform - ie will take advantage of
their ignorance to sell them a modem for double the price a PC user
would be prepared to pay and employs a technician who will deliberately
make things difficult for them if they later choose to change platform.
--
Use Reply-To and DO NOT remove .nospam when replying
dgs
2003-09-23 18:14:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Houghton
Post by dgs
However, it is my experience that the average RISC OS user is no more
computerate than the average Windows user, if you were to remove from
the equation the vast numbers of people who are using Windows as a
tool for their employer.
In that case, your experience of RISC OS and Windows users differs
vastly from that of myself, and indeed that of a great many other
users who contribute to the Acorn newsgroups.
Strange, considering RISC OS is sold under the banner of being easier to
use than Windows.
Not strange at all. A user who is more computer literate is more likely
to have used a variety of computer systems, and may thus have chosen the
one that they find easiest to use.
Post by Tony Houghton
How many Windows users do you know that get confused between faxes and
emails?
I imagine there are quite a few. I even know of some Linux users who
think it's perfectly understandable to think that an email is actually a
fax :-)
Post by Tony Houghton
How many Windows users do you know that think they get good value from
an ISP that charges a subscription on top of billed phone-calls just
because it claims to support their platform - ie will take advantage of
their ignorance to sell them a modem for double the price a PC user
would be prepared to pay and employs a technician who will deliberately
make things difficult for them if they later choose to change platform.
Was it them making it difficult for you, or you making it difficult for
them?
--
***@argonet.co.uk | RISC OS user in London? http://www.jellybaby.net/rougol/

"Which one of you are you, if you see what I mean...?" - Mark Moxon
Tony Houghton
2003-09-23 19:09:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by dgs
Post by Tony Houghton
How many Windows users do you know that get confused between faxes and
emails?
I imagine there are quite a few. I even know of some Linux users who
think it's perfectly understandable to think that an email is actually a
fax :-)
We've already done attitudes to technophobes in this thread. Druck
thinks they're complete morons who shouldn't be allowed near computers,
I think it's a pity but it's not their fault, and you think they should
have the piss taken out of them and have their ignorance exploited as
part of your personal vendettas with no regard to their feelings.
Post by dgs
Post by Tony Houghton
How many Windows users do you know that think they get good value from
an ISP that charges a subscription on top of billed phone-calls just
because it claims to support their platform - ie will take advantage of
their ignorance to sell them a modem for double the price a PC user
would be prepared to pay and employs a technician who will deliberately
make things difficult for them if they later choose to change platform.
Was it them making it difficult for you, or you making it difficult for
them?
That wasn't based on any personal experience except recalling that a
certain ISP technician is known to have deliberately prevented his web
site from working in IE.

If they haven't caused any trouble for me, perhaps it's because they
took no notice of a certain scheming someone dishonestly claiming I was
attacking their user base. ;-)
--
Use Reply-To and DO NOT remove .nospam when replying
Evpuneq Erivf
2003-09-24 06:09:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by dgs
I imagine there are quite a few. I even know of some Linux users who
think it's perfectly understandable to think that an email is actually a
fax :-)
Presumably only those subscribed to the eFax service - I get e-mails that
are faxes :o)
dgs
2003-09-25 18:10:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evpuneq Erivf
Post by dgs
I imagine there are quite a few. I even know of some Linux users who
think it's perfectly understandable to think that an email is actually
a fax :-)
Presumably only those subscribed to the eFax service - I get e-mails
that are faxes :o)
This is available for plenty of other operating systems too. However, I
must congratulate you on solving this puzzle that has caused so much
consternation and ill-will on these newsgroups over the last three years.
The imaginary faxes that were really imaginary emails could in fact have
been both at once, thus perhaps no confusion was encountered!

The only thing that still puzzles me, is why Tony still keeps mentioning
this "confused between faxes and emails" thing, if it supposedly upsets
his feelings so much. Perhaps only he knows...
--
***@argonet.co.uk | RISC OS user in London? http://www.jellybaby.net/rougol/

"I rather like September." - Mike Cook
Tony Houghton
2003-09-25 20:24:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by dgs
This is available for plenty of other operating systems too. However, I
must congratulate you on solving this puzzle that has caused so much
consternation and ill-will on these newsgroups over the last three years.
The imaginary faxes that were really imaginary emails could in fact have
been both at once, thus perhaps no confusion was encountered!
Ah, so the emails are "imaginary" too now?
Post by dgs
The only thing that still puzzles me, is why Tony still keeps mentioning
this "confused between faxes and emails" thing, if it supposedly upsets
his feelings so much. Perhaps only he knows...
I didn't mean my feelings, I mean the person who got confused between
them. He was quite alarmed because the email gave him the completely
untrue impression that his address had been hijacked to give his company
a bad name.

I don't expect he'd be happy about your new claim that he made up the
whole thing - or John Cartmell for that matter, who admitted to sending
the email you're now denying.

But you don't really care about the consequences of your vendettas even
to your "friends", let alone associates of your enemies, do you? Being
able to dupe them isn't enough for you, you boast you're so great that
the MAUG committee deliberately lie for you.
--
Use Reply-To and DO NOT remove .nospam when replying
Phillip Marsden
2003-09-23 08:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by dgs
...
However, it is my experience that the average RISC OS user is no more
computerate than the average Windows user, if you were to remove from
the equation the vast numbers of people who are using Windows as a tool
for their employer.
In that case, your experience of RISC OS and Windows users differs vastly
from that of myself, and indeed that of a great many other users who
contribute to the Acorn newsgroups.
This substantial difference may help to explain why the viewpoints of some
posters to these newsgroups seem so alien to you.
Indeed. I don't post here simply to cause a furore, I post to try to create a
balance. This is of course based on my experience, as are most things in life.

The difference between me and (say) druck is that I accept that people can be
computer illiterate, but still be knowledgeable in other fields, thus making
them intelligent people (sorry if that sounds patronising). Druck on the other
hand appears to think that because someone (and it is nearly always a Windows
user) does not know all the ins-and-outs of computers like Druck does, then
that person is a moron.

I have known many accountants who, when placed in front of a spreadsheet and a
set of accounts can work wonders in their field. Ask them to do anything else
on the computer and they were lost. Does this make them a moron?

Would druck like it if he were conversing with someone who has knowledge of a
field in which he (druck) has little or no knowledge then turned round and
called him a moron? I have in mind the type of person who can quote from
Shakespeare, Byron, etc. who, when they find that the person to whom they are
speaking does not know these quotations (or even the author of the quotation)
then proceeds to regard that person as a moron. It is of course a terrible
attitude to take, but a common one.
--
Regards, Phillip Marsden.
richard.watson
2003-09-23 10:00:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Marsden
Post by dgs
...
However, it is my experience that the average RISC OS user is no more
computerate than the average Windows user, if you were to remove from
the equation the vast numbers of people who are using Windows as a tool
for their employer.
In that case, your experience of RISC OS and Windows users differs vastly
from that of myself, and indeed that of a great many other users who
contribute to the Acorn newsgroups.
This substantial difference may help to explain why the viewpoints of some
posters to these newsgroups seem so alien to you.
Indeed. I don't post here simply to cause a furore, I post to try to create a
balance. This is of course based on my experience, as are most things in life.
The difference between me and (say) druck is that I accept that people can be
computer illiterate, but still be knowledgeable in other fields, thus making
them intelligent people (sorry if that sounds patronising). Druck on the other
hand appears to think that because someone (and it is nearly always a Windows
user) does not know all the ins-and-outs of computers like Druck does, then
that person is a moron.
I have known many accountants who, when placed in front of a spreadsheet and a
set of accounts can work wonders in their field. Ask them to do anything else
on the computer and they were lost. Does this make them a moron?
Would druck like it if he were conversing with someone who has knowledge of a
field in which he (druck) has little or no knowledge then turned round and
called him a moron? I have in mind the type of person who can quote from
Shakespeare, Byron, etc. who, when they find that the person to whom they are
speaking does not know these quotations (or even the author of the quotation)
then proceeds to regard that person as a moron. It is of course a terrible
attitude to take, but a common one.
Hear hear - I have to remind myself every day that even the brightest
customers don't necesserily know how their car works, that doesn't make
them thick, usually they are simply not interested, which is fine! Indeed
I have "crossed the line" so to speak - I used know the insides of my
Acorn pretty well, but now I just use it, and fiddling around inside apps
or whatever is something of a pain I could do without!

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk ***@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
David Holden
2003-09-23 11:09:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard.watson
Post by Phillip Marsden
Post by dgs
...
However, it is my experience that the average RISC OS user is no more
computerate than the average Windows user, if you were to remove from
the equation the vast numbers of people who are using Windows as a tool
for their employer.
In that case, your experience of RISC OS and Windows users
differs vastly
from that of myself, and indeed that of a great many other users who
contribute to the Acorn newsgroups.
This substantial difference may help to explain why the
viewpoints of some
posters to these newsgroups seem so alien to you.
Indeed. I don't post here simply to cause a furore, I post to try to create a
balance. This is of course based on my experience, as are most things in life.
The difference between me and (say) druck is that I accept that people can be
computer illiterate, but still be knowledgeable in other fields, thus making
them intelligent people (sorry if that sounds patronising). Druck on the other
hand appears to think that because someone (and it is nearly
always a Windows
user) does not know all the ins-and-outs of computers like Druck does, then
that person is a moron.
I have known many accountants who, when placed in front of a
spreadsheet and a
set of accounts can work wonders in their field. Ask them to do anything else
on the computer and they were lost. Does this make them a moron?
Would druck like it if he were conversing with someone who has
knowledge of a > > field in which he (druck) has little or no
knowledge
then turned round and called him a moron? I have in mind the type
of
person who can quote from Shakespeare, Byron, etc. who, when they
find that the person to whom they are speaking does not know
these
quotations (or even the author of the quotation)
then proceeds to regard that person as a moron. It is of course a
terrible attitude to take, but a common one.
Hear hear - I have to remind myself every day that even the
brightest
customers don't necesserily know how their car works, that doesn't
make them thick, usually they are simply not interested, which is
fine! Indeed I have "crossed the line" so to speak - I used know the
insides of my Acorn pretty well, but now I just use it, and fiddling
around inside apps or whatever is something of a pain I could do
without!
The sickest thing about this whole argument (or whatever it is) is
that most of the people who post on c.s.a (presumably) are RISC OS
enthusiasts who want to encourage 'outsiders' to use our OS.

Now, it's obvious, even to people of very limited intellect, that if
these people are already computer users then a very substantial
proportion of them are going to be using Windows. To insult them, no
matter how mildly, is therefore to alienate the very people we want to
convert.

Similarly you don't convert them by hurling abuse at the OS they're
using, especially if it's in the form of 'that's a load or c**p'.
People don't like being told that what they have is rubbish. They
naturally react badly to the implication that, by association, they
themselves are somehow inferior.

Whatever your private opinions of Windows, keep them to yourselves. If
we want to get people to migrate from Windows to RISC OS then the only
way they're going to be wooed is by methods that don't insult them.
'Well, Windows is OK, but this is better' is far more likely to get a
sympathetic ear than 'Windoes is c**p, only morons use it'.

I know from feedback I've had that many people who, for whatever
reasons, use Windows are heartily fed up with having the views of some
people constantly rammed down their throats. Sometimes to the point of
leaving RISC OS altogether (I don't say it's the only reason - but we
can't afford to do anything that alienates even a single RISC OS
user). You may well be right in your view of Windows and everything
M$, but this is not the place to air those views if you really care
about RISC OS. The appropriate place for criticising Windows is on a
Windows group.
--
David Holden - APDL - <http://www.apdl.co.uk>
druck
2003-09-23 16:56:19 UTC
Permalink
On 23 Sep 2003 David Holden <***@apdl.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]
Post by David Holden
Whatever your private opinions of Windows, keep them to yourselves. If
we want to get people to migrate from Windows to RISC OS then the only
way they're going to be wooed is by methods that don't insult them.
'Well, Windows is OK, but this is better' is far more likely to get a
sympathetic ear than 'Windoes is c**p, only morons use it'.
I know from feedback I've had that many people who, for whatever
reasons, use Windows are heartily fed up with having the views of some
people constantly rammed down their throats. Sometimes to the point of
leaving RISC OS altogether (I don't say it's the only reason - but we
can't afford to do anything that alienates even a single RISC OS
user). You may well be right in your view of Windows and everything
M$, but this is not the place to air those views if you really care
about RISC OS. The appropriate place for criticising Windows is on a
Windows group.
This is csa.advocacy, this new group was created for the sole purpose of
slagging off Windows PCs.

---druck
--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
David Holden
2003-09-23 17:18:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
This is csa.advocacy, this new group was created for the sole
purpose of slagging off Windows PCs.
---druck
Ah, now I understand.

You like to reserve your "slagging off" for the comparatively secure
environment of a c.s.a group and dare not take it to the big, wide
world of mainstream Windows users where more knowledgeable users might
refute some of your arguments :-o
--
David Holden - APDL - <http://www.apdl.co.uk>
Tony Houghton
2003-09-23 18:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Holden
Post by druck
This is csa.advocacy, this new group was created for the sole
purpose of slagging off Windows PCs.
---druck
Ah, now I understand.
You like to reserve your "slagging off" for the comparatively secure
environment of a c.s.a group and dare not take it to the big, wide
world of mainstream Windows users where more knowledgeable users might
refute some of your arguments :-o
The irony is that even within the confines of csa.* he's showing himself
up as a clueless moron. In csa.programmer he's been ranting all sorts of
nonsense about gcc and StubsG being "impure" and buggy because he
doesn't understand how to use them properly.
--
Use Reply-To and DO NOT remove .nospam when replying
druck
2003-09-23 19:07:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Houghton
Post by David Holden
Post by druck
This is csa.advocacy, this new group was created for the sole
purpose of slagging off Windows PCs.
---druck
Ah, now I understand.
You like to reserve your "slagging off" for the comparatively secure
environment of a c.s.a group and dare not take it to the big, wide
world of mainstream Windows users where more knowledgeable users might
refute some of your arguments :-o
The irony is that even within the confines of csa.* he's showing himself
up as a clueless moron. In csa.programmer he's been ranting all sorts of
nonsense about gcc and StubsG being "impure" and buggy because he
doesn't understand how to use them properly.
Shame you didn't manage to think up that witty retort at the time, instead of
completely failing to refute any of the technical points I raised. Never mind
I'm sure you'll come up with some more personal insults that will undoubtly
prove your case to the rest of the developer community.

---druck
--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
Tony Houghton
2003-09-23 19:27:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
Post by Tony Houghton
The irony is that even within the confines of csa.* he's showing himself
up as a clueless moron. In csa.programmer he's been ranting all sorts of
nonsense about gcc and StubsG being "impure" and buggy because he
doesn't understand how to use them properly.
Shame you didn't manage to think up that witty retort at the time, instead of
completely failing to refute any of the technical points I raised. Never mind
I'm sure you'll come up with some more personal insults that will undoubtly
prove your case to the rest of the developer community.
You didn't raise any technical points. Perhaps you think saying that
using a backwards compatible FP instruction subset isn't "pure" 32-bit
and is some sort of hindrance to development is raising a technical
point. Others just think you've got some weird bee in your bonnet.
--
Use Reply-To and DO NOT remove .nospam when replying
druck
2003-09-23 19:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
Post by Tony Houghton
The irony is that even within the confines of csa.* he's showing himself
up as a clueless moron. In csa.programmer he's been ranting all sorts of
nonsense about gcc and StubsG being "impure" and buggy because he doesn't
understand how to use them properly.
Shame you didn't manage to think up that witty retort at the time, instead
of completely failing to refute any of the technical points I raised.
Never mind I'm sure you'll come up with some more personal insults that
will undoubtly prove your case to the rest of the developer community.
You didn't raise any technical points. Perhaps you think saying that using
a backwards compatible FP instruction subset isn't "pure" 32-bit and is
some sort of hindrance to development is raising a technical point. Others
just think you've got some weird bee in your bonnet.
Perhapse others actually read my post, <***@druck.freeuk.net>
you don't seem to have.

Any Tony, beleive what you like, no one else cares.

---druck
--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
Tony Houghton
2003-09-23 21:19:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
You didn't raise any technical points. Perhaps you think saying that using
a backwards compatible FP instruction subset isn't "pure" 32-bit and is
some sort of hindrance to development is raising a technical point. Others
just think you've got some weird bee in your bonnet.
Probably, that would explain why they think you've got an unreasonable
grudge against StubsG (eg
<cvo7b.5402$***@news-text.cableinet.net>) with no technical
basis.
Post by druck
you don't seem to have.
Funny how I managed to reply to it then.
Post by druck
Any Tony, beleive what you like, no one else cares.
I'm not the one with weird beliefs that any compiler and libraries other
than Castle's are impure and full of bugs that don't affect anyone but
you.
--
Use Reply-To and DO NOT remove .nospam when replying
Evpuneq Erivf
2003-09-24 06:03:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Houghton
In csa.programmer he's been ranting all sorts of
nonsense about gcc and StubsG being "impure" and buggy
I could have some sypathy with someone who thought that GCC was buggy :o)
It's a great bit of software, but unbelievably ambitious and as a result
exhibits some peculiar behaviour.

Still, given the alternatives (0) and especially the free alternatives
(0), and the huge ammount of development to make it less buggy, pointing
the finger at it seems like a waste of time, especially since it's free
and you could always fix it yourself if you wanted to.
druck
2003-09-23 18:33:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Holden
Post by druck
This is csa.advocacy, this new group was created for the sole
purpose of slagging off Windows PCs.
---druck
Ah, now I understand.
You like to reserve your "slagging off" for the comparatively secure
environment of a c.s.a group and dare not take it to the big, wide
world of mainstream Windows users where more knowledgeable users might
refute some of your arguments :-o
I really dont care about PC users, they have made their choice and are
welcome to it.

However the point you and certain others are chooing to ignore is that these
PC users are complicit in a denial of service attack which is destroying the
capability of RISC OS machines to access email.

Now are you arguing in support of that or against it?

---druck
--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
richard.watson
2003-09-23 22:36:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
Post by David Holden
Post by druck
This is csa.advocacy, this new group was created for the sole
purpose of slagging off Windows PCs.
---druck
Ah, now I understand.
You like to reserve your "slagging off" for the comparatively secure
environment of a c.s.a group and dare not take it to the big, wide
world of mainstream Windows users where more knowledgeable users might
refute some of your arguments :-o
I really dont care about PC users, they have made their choice and are
welcome to it.
However the point you and certain others are chooing to ignore is that these
PC users are complicit in a denial of service attack which is destroying the
capability of RISC OS machines to access email.
Now are you arguing in support of that or against it?
---druck
Complisity implies (at least *some*) intent, and the users in question,
or at least the vast majority, do not have any intent.

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk ***@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
pv
2003-09-24 07:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard.watson
Complisity implies (at least *some*) intent, and the users in question,
or at least the vast majority, do not have any intent.
Ignorance is no excuse. If people go and buy a computer they ought to set
it up and use it correctly.

If your car fails it's MOT or emits clouds of black smoke you can't simply
get away with it saying you didn't know. It's your responsibility to sort
it out and make sure it doesn't affect other people.

After the nightmare week I've had, I'm seriously thinking of suing
Microsoft for work related stress....
--
__\\|//__ Life,
(` o-o ') the Universe
---- www.segfault.co.uk ------ooO-(_)-Ooo------ & Everything ------

Posted using a RISC OS computer - 100% immune to all email viruses.

After any salary raise, you will have less money at the end of the month than you did before.
richard.watson
2003-09-24 08:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by pv
Post by richard.watson
Complisity implies (at least *some*) intent, and the users in question,
or at least the vast majority, do not have any intent.
Ignorance is no excuse. If people go and buy a computer they ought to set
it up and use it correctly.
A computer is a consumer electronics device, it's failure is not life
threatening, just inconvenient, the same as a washing machine. Even for
business, where having some sort of fall-back system is a vital part of
company strategy.
Post by pv
If your car fails it's MOT or emits clouds of black smoke you can't simply
get away with it saying you didn't know. It's your responsibility to sort
it out and make sure it doesn't affect other people.
Ok, so we'll, introduce and annual "MOT" for PC's, cost 30 quid, that
should go down well! (and prove virtually nothing, like the MOT)
Post by pv
After the nightmare week I've had, I'm seriously thinking of suing
Microsoft for work related stress....
Tell me about it, I've been unable to do business (admitedly briefly) on
three occasions due to full discs - thank god for !AntiSpam and keeping
up-to-date print-outs!

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk ***@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
Richard Porter
2003-09-24 11:05:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard.watson
Post by pv
Ignorance is no excuse. If people go and buy a computer they ought
to set it up and use it correctly.
A computer is a consumer electronics device, it's failure is not life
threatening, just inconvenient, the same as a washing machine. Even for
business, where having some sort of fall-back system is a vital part of
company strategy.
A stereo system is a consumer electronics device. If you operate it
in such a way that it causes a nuisance to other people you can be
prosecuted. If you make nuisance telephone calls to people you can be
prosecuted. If your Windows computer pollutes the internet by sending
crap to anyone and everyone you should also be held to account.

If you contribute to a situation that causes a denial of service it
could be life threatening.
Post by richard.watson
Post by pv
If your car fails it's MOT or emits clouds of black smoke you can't
simply get away with it saying you didn't know. It's your responsi-
bility to sort it out and make sure it doesn't affect other people.
Ok, so we'll, introduce and annual "MOT" for PC's, cost 30 quid, that
should go down well! (and prove virtually nothing, like the MOT)
We should have the equivalent of BABT approval for computers connected
to public networks. Machines which can send out destructive code without
the user's knowledge should not be approved.
--
Richard Porter
Mail to username ricp at domain minijem.plus.com
"You can't have Windows without pains."
Steven Pampling
2003-09-24 18:46:43 UTC
Permalink
[Snip]
Post by Richard Porter
Post by richard.watson
Ok, so we'll, introduce and annual "MOT" for PC's, cost 30 quid, that
should go down well! (and prove virtually nothing, like the MOT)
We should have the equivalent of BABT approval for computers connected
to public networks. Machines which can send out destructive code without
the user's knowledge should not be approved.
Only one trouble with modern computer standards:

Those b*******s from MS get on the committee.

They'd re-write the standard to insist on their way being the only way, and
*we* would be in the "not approved" list...
--
What kind of insanity destroys fields
to replace what already exists?
Stop Rugby Airport now before it's too late...
Steve Pampling
Philip Ludlam
2003-09-24 20:31:42 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Richard Porter
Post by richard.watson
Post by pv
If your car fails it's MOT or emits clouds of black smoke you can't
simply get away with it saying you didn't know. It's your responsi-
bility to sort it out and make sure it doesn't affect other people.
Ok, so we'll, introduce and annual "MOT" for PC's, cost 30 quid, that
should go down well! (and prove virtually nothing, like the MOT)
We should have the equivalent of BABT approval for computers connected
to public networks. Machines which can send out destructive code without
the user's knowledge should not be approved.
You do realise just how broad that is.
Any program can, without the user's knowledge, try to send out
destructive code. Whether it succeeds or not depends on whether the
computer is connected to a network.

Yours,

Phil L.
--
http://www.philipnet.com http://director.sourceforge.net
The From address is valid, but anything over 32k is deleted by the server
i ou a uea i e a o ie e a o a a oue oae
Richard Porter
2003-09-24 22:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Porter
We should have the equivalent of BABT approval for computers
connected to public networks. Machines which can send out
destructive code without the user's knowledge should not be
approved.
You do realise just how broad that is. Any program can, without the
user's knowledge, try to send out destructive code. ...
Yes. It was just a quick reaction, but I was thinking of the operating
system and built-in/bundled components like the web browser and mail
client. If you run an application bought/acquired in good faith you
expect it to do what it says on the tin and nothing more. However you
should still be responsible for what your equipment sends out. Ignorance
is no excuse.
--
Richard Porter
Mail to username ricp at domain minijem.plus.com
"You can't have Windows without pains."
Evpuneq Erivf
2003-09-25 07:12:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Porter
However you
should still be responsible for what your equipment sends out. Ignorance
is no excuse.
I can't remember the last time I checked the proftpd source code for
problems.

Now, I don't feel that I have to overmuch because problems with the stuff
I use tends to get fixed quickly. It's certainly a better alternative than
Windows in that respect. However, I don't go over every line and I don't
watch netstat constantly, so stuff _could_ be going out without my
knowlage.

If I persistantly refuse to correct a problem that has been pointed out to
me, or don't acknowlage that it exists then that's a different matter of
course.
Glenn Richards
2003-09-26 14:02:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
However the point you and certain others are chooing to ignore is
that these PC users are complicit in a denial of service attack which
is destroying the capability of RISC OS machines to access email.
To stop the flood of incoming emails:

1. Get broadband.

2. Get a *nix box running Exim and an IMAP server.

3. Install SpamAssassin

4. Install the system filter that Peter Naulls posted a link to earlier
in this thread.

5. Use a freely available IMAP client [1] to read your email.

Since putting the filter in, I've had 5 copies of the virus in the last
6 days. Those were variants, and are comparatively rare.

[1] Might be a problem on RISC OS, where people seem determined to milk
as much money out of users as possible. MessengerPro Online (£40)
is the only one I know of. There's a reason I'm using Mozilla
Thunderbird.
--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrel-net.co.uk/

"Growing old is compulsory. Growing UP is optional." -- Anon
druck
2003-09-26 16:55:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glenn Richards
Post by druck
However the point you and certain others are chooing to ignore is
that these PC users are complicit in a denial of service attack which
is destroying the capability of RISC OS machines to access email.
1. Get broadband.
2. Get a *nix box running Exim and an IMAP server.
3. Install SpamAssassin
4. Install the system filter that Peter Naulls posted a link to earlier
in this thread.
Well luckily just before I was completely swamped, a friend offered to do
exactly this for me, filtering all email from my domain.
Post by Glenn Richards
5. Use a freely available IMAP client [1] to read your email.
However as broadband isn't available here for another 6 weeks, he is
forwarding on the email to fresh ISP account so I can collect it from
there via POP.
Post by Glenn Richards
Since putting the filter in, I've had 5 copies of the virus in the last
6 days. Those were variants, and are comparatively rare.
Only 2 copies, and no other spam in to the bargin.

Compare that to FreeUK which is the account I use to for newsgroup replies,
they have had to abandom the 10MB limit, and yesterday I got around 2400
viruses emails in 24 hours totalling 369MB, and there are more today. Even
!AntiSpam takes 20 minutes to delete all the headers.
Post by Glenn Richards
[1] Might be a problem on RISC OS, where people seem determined to milk
as much money out of users as possible. MessengerPro Online (£40)
is the only one I know of. There's a reason I'm using Mozilla
Thunderbird.
Possibly a little expensive when you comare with Gemini which is 30 quid
for both POP and IMAP functionality. But then Mark is expecting to sell a
few more compies of that.

---druck
--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
Tony Houghton
2003-09-26 19:25:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
Post by Glenn Richards
1. Get broadband.
2. Get a *nix box running Exim and an IMAP server.
3. Install SpamAssassin
4. Install the system filter that Peter Naulls posted a link to earlier
in this thread.
Well luckily just before I was completely swamped, a friend offered to do
exactly this for me, filtering all email from my domain.
There's also despammed.com if you're using mail forwarding. It isn't as
good as spamassassin, but it helps. ukfsn.org is hoping to introduce
filtering, based on spamassassin AFAIK, but they need to be sure it
doesn't fall foul of the Data Protection Act. A public service provider
isn't allowed to intercept mail without permission of both the sender
and recipient and some people think an automatic filter counts as
interception. Hopefully they're wrong.

[IMAP client]
Post by druck
Post by Glenn Richards
[1] Might be a problem on RISC OS, where people seem determined to milk
as much money out of users as possible. MessengerPro Online (£40)
is the only one I know of. There's a reason I'm using Mozilla
Thunderbird.
Possibly a little expensive when you comare with Gemini which is 30 quid
for both POP and IMAP functionality. But then Mark is expecting to sell a
few more compies of that.
Anyway, if you've got access to a *nix server you can just run a POP3
daemon on it. Most people shouldn't have a problem with downloading the
mail to their RISC OS box and storing it there.
--
My real address is in the Reply-To and includes the .nospam
Glenn Richards
2003-09-27 14:12:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Houghton
Anyway, if you've got access to a *nix server you can just run a POP3
daemon on it. Most people shouldn't have a problem with downloading the
mail to their RISC OS box and storing it there.
You can, but that's less than ideal. It'll either delete the messages
from the *nix box or mark them as "read". Which means that if I'm
working at that point on the *nix workstation, or the Windoze box, the
mail will either be unavailable, or at the very least new messages will
be marked as read and I won't get a new mail notification.

I very often access email remotely. My mail server is on broadband, and
I also have a webmail system running. Fetching everything down to RISC
OS would break things horribly.

Newsbase also has an IMAP server built in, but no clients use it.
--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrel-net.co.uk/

"Growing old is compulsory. Growing UP is optional." -- Anon
Glenn Richards
2003-09-27 14:08:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
Post by Glenn Richards
5. Use a freely available IMAP client [1] to read your email.
However as broadband isn't available here for another 6 weeks, he is
forwarding on the email to fresh ISP account so I can collect it from
there via POP.
That'll work also. :-)
Post by druck
Post by Glenn Richards
[1] Might be a problem on RISC OS, where people seem determined to milk
as much money out of users as possible. MessengerPro Online (£40)
is the only one I know of. There's a reason I'm using Mozilla
Thunderbird.
Possibly a little expensive when you comare with Gemini which is 30
quid for both POP and IMAP functionality. But then Mark is expecting
to sell a few more compies of that.
I've pretty much given up on using RISC OS for mail these days anyway.
There's no free IMAP client - which is absolutely vital for my business
as I need to check email accounts on servers I'm leasing to clients. And
Mozilla Thunderbird is pretty damned good, particularly with multiple
accounts.

One other problem with RISC OS mail clients is none of them AFAIK
support HTML emails. Now while I have absolutely no wish to send emails
in this abominable format, I have no control over what people send to
me. And because I'm running a business here, I can't afford to bounce
messages. For example someone sent a large order through recently as
HTML - had I bounced it I'd have lost a four figure sum.

(Note for anyone reading who hasn't read properly - I have an intense
dislike of HTML email, but non-techie people still send it to me.
Because "that's what Outlook sends by default".)
--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrel-net.co.uk/

"Growing old is compulsory. Growing UP is optional." -- Anon
richard.watson
2003-09-26 18:59:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glenn Richards
Post by druck
However the point you and certain others are chooing to ignore is
that these PC users are complicit in a denial of service attack which
is destroying the capability of RISC OS machines to access email.
1. Get broadband.
2. Get a *nix box running Exim and an IMAP server.
3. Install SpamAssassin
4. Install the system filter that Peter Naulls posted a link to earlier
in this thread.
5. Use a freely available IMAP client [1] to read your email.
Since putting the filter in, I've had 5 copies of the virus in the last
6 days. Those were variants, and are comparatively rare.
[1] Might be a problem on RISC OS, where people seem determined to milk
as much money out of users as possible. MessengerPro Online (£40)
is the only one I know of. There's a reason I'm using Mozilla
Thunderbird.
or

Get !AnitSpam - a tad simpler and very effective!

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk ***@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
druck
2003-09-26 23:38:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard.watson
Post by Glenn Richards
1. Get broadband.
2. Get a *nix box running Exim and an IMAP server.
3. Install SpamAssassin
4. Install the system filter that Peter Naulls posted a link to earlier
in this thread.
5. Use a freely available IMAP client [1] to read your email.
Since putting the filter in, I've had 5 copies of the virus in the last
6 days. Those were variants, and are comparatively rare.
[1] Might be a problem on RISC OS, where people seem determined to milk
as much money out of users as possible. MessengerPro Online (£40)
is the only one I know of. There's a reason I'm using Mozilla
Thunderbird.
or
Get !AnitSpam - a tad simpler and very effective!
But the problem was if you dont have broadband and can leave the computer
running 24/7 firing off AntiSpam every 2 minutes, the virus was coming in so
fast it would fill up the ISPs mail box between connections and you'd loose
email.

---druck
--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
richard.watson
2003-09-27 00:19:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
Post by richard.watson
Post by Glenn Richards
1. Get broadband.
2. Get a *nix box running Exim and an IMAP server.
3. Install SpamAssassin
4. Install the system filter that Peter Naulls posted a link to earlier
in this thread.
5. Use a freely available IMAP client [1] to read your email.
Since putting the filter in, I've had 5 copies of the virus in the last
6 days. Those were variants, and are comparatively rare.
[1] Might be a problem on RISC OS, where people seem determined to milk
as much money out of users as possible. MessengerPro Online (£40)
is the only one I know of. There's a reason I'm using Mozilla
Thunderbird.
or
Get !AnitSpam - a tad simpler and very effective!
But the problem was if you dont have broadband and can leave the computer
running 24/7 firing off AntiSpam every 2 minutes, the virus was coming in so
fast it would fill up the ISPs mail box between connections and you'd loose
email.
---druck
Fair enough, just get the broadband and !AntiSpam then!! (works here)

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk ***@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
druck
2003-09-27 00:40:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by richard.watson
Post by druck
But the problem was if you dont have broadband and can leave the computer
running 24/7 firing off AntiSpam every 2 minutes, the virus was coming in
so fast it would fill up the ISPs mail box between connections and you'd
loose email.
---druck
Fair enough, just get the broadband and !AntiSpam then!! (works here)
I will when it arrives in the back of beyond in another 6 weeks.

---druck
--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
James Carey
2003-09-27 02:18:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
Post by richard.watson
Post by druck
But the problem was if you dont have broadband and can leave the
computer running 24/7 firing off AntiSpam every 2 minutes, the virus
was coming in so fast it would fill up the ISPs mail box between
connections and you'd loose email.
---druck
Fair enough, just get the broadband and !AntiSpam then!! (works here)
I will when it arrives in the back of beyond in another 6 weeks.
Bet you can hardly wait! Broadband is certainly one of the bonuses of being
at home (having graduated).

Is it the people that post to the newsgroups regularly that are/were most
effected by this email virus?

Regards,
--
James Carey
Jess
2003-09-27 07:14:03 UTC
Permalink
In message <***@maat.clara.co.uk>
James Carey <***@maat.clara.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
Post by James Carey
Is it the people that post to the newsgroups regularly that are/were most
effected by this email virus?
My from address - hotmail filled up well within two hours of emptying
the spam folder - perhaps less than 45 mins sometimes, so I have set it
on maximum anti-spam - delete anything not from safe list.

My reply to address is /only/ getting a couple of megs a day, all
filtered by mess pro, not enough to have made me install antispam yet.
--
Jess icq: 91353267 msn: ***@hotmail.com http://www.kentwebnet.com
Hotmail is my spam trap - don't use for email
mailto:***@itworkshop.uklinux.net
RISC OS 4.37 kinetic 64+128+2M Castle Storm DMA + 17GB 586-133 I-3 ADSL


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
James Carey
2003-09-27 12:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jess
[snip]
Post by James Carey
Is it the people that post to the newsgroups regularly that are/were most
effected by this email virus?
My from address - hotmail filled up well within two hours of emptying
the spam folder - perhaps less than 45 mins sometimes, so I have set it
on maximum anti-spam - delete anything not from safe list.
My reply to address is /only/ getting a couple of megs a day, all
filtered by mess pro, not enough to have made me install antispam yet.
Which is pretty much as I suspected. Makes me wonder how the virus is able
to harvest so many email addresses in one foul swoop. Ah well, lucky I'm not
so prolific on the newsgroups.

Regards,
--
James Carey
Evpuneq Erivf
2003-09-27 15:11:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Carey
Bet you can hardly wait! Broadband is certainly one of the bonuses of being
at home (having graduated).
Im back in halls next week, 10 megabit ethernet for £2/week - about
200k/sec external connectivity. Zen were good, this is better :oD
Post by James Carey
Is it the people that post to the newsgroups regularly that are/were most
effected by this email virus?
Yeah. None of my boxes were touched but last night I had to patch my
parents', get and install zone alarm and AVG, and grab the new definitions
- all on the end of a 56k modem. Even alt-OS geeks get affected by Windows
viruses ;o)
Steven Pampling
2003-09-27 12:41:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Carey
Is it the people that post to the newsgroups regularly that are/were
most effected by this email virus?
That seems to be the case.

Some people have commented that when they changed mail address and
created a spam trap the spam trap caught *all* the virus mail.

It is supposed to be a feature of the virus that it trawls through user
files for addresses to use. If the address it picks up is actually a spam
trap then that's where the virus goes.
However, unless the address is actually referencing an invalid domain then
it seems it will still fill a server somewhere.
--
What kind of insanity destroys fields
to replace what already exists?
Stop Rugby Airport now before it's too late...
Steve Pampling
druck
2003-09-27 14:25:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Carey
Post by druck
I will when it arrives in the back of beyond in another 6 weeks.
Bet you can hardly wait! Broadband is certainly one of the bonuses of
being at home (having graduated).
Well I could hardly wait until this virus came along, but then the thought of
being able to download 10x more megabytes of crap every hour hardly seemed
much of an advantage.

Luckily now I have some filtering in place I can look forward again to using
the internet again for its one true purpose - but will the extra speed of
broadband take away the fun of watching dodgy images appearing a line at a
time and trying to guess what they are? ;-)
Post by James Carey
Is it the people that post to the newsgroups regularly that are/were most
effected by this email virus?
Well I post more than most, and certainly seemed to receive more viruses than
most too.

---druck
--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
dgs
2003-09-23 18:19:25 UTC
Permalink
In article <bkp9lp$49h3t$***@ID-141941.news.uni-berlin.de>,
David Holden <***@apdl.co.uk> wrote:

[ the best part of a hundred lines of quoted text all in one go ]

Blimey, spot the Windows user!
--
***@argonet.co.uk * RISC OS in London ? http://rougol.jellybaby.net/
(speaking personally) * or Manchester ? http://www.acorn.manchester.ac.uk/

Interviewer: When do you plan to release the ARM11?
Sir Robin Saxby: After the ARM10.
David Holden
2003-09-24 08:27:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by dgs
[ the best part of a hundred lines of quoted text all in one go ]
Blimey, spot the Windows user!
None of which points you make any attemp to address, just the usual
dig at someone who chooses to use Windows _for_this_particular_task.

I think that pretty much reinforces my argument.
--
David Holden - APDL - <http://www.apdl.co.uk>
dgs
2003-09-25 18:01:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Holden
Post by dgs
[ the best part of a hundred lines of quoted text all in one go ]
Blimey, spot the Windows user!
None of which points you make any attemp to address,
If I had wished to address any of the points in Richard Watson's article,
I would have replied to that article. I didn't need you to quote
seventy-something lines of it back at us without a break, in order to do
so.

Usenet really is that easy to use!
Post by David Holden
just the usual dig at someone who chooses to use Windows
_for_this_particular_task.
On the contrary, I commented on the coincidence between the use of
operating system and the approach to posting. If this encourages other
Windows users to be more considerate when using the internet, then all
will have benefited.
Post by David Holden
I think that pretty much reinforces my argument.
What argument? I couldn't really identify anything which might reasonably
be called premises, nor a conclusion as such - just a great many
assertions. (One of those assertions was to redefine yet again what an
comp.*.advocacy group should be used for - congratulations!)

Your article did talk about insults, hurling abuse, and some of the gutter
language that has been used in this thread by those who use Windows to
earn their living, or use Windows and Linux at home. How my criticism of
over-quoting "reinforces" any of those three categories, I have no idea.
--
***@argonet.co.uk | RISC OS user in London? http://www.jellybaby.net/rougol/

"I rather like September." - Mike Cook
dgs
2003-09-25 19:21:05 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@argonet.co.uk>,
dgs <***@argonet.co.uk> wrote, amidst many other things:

...
gutter language that has been used in this thread by those who use
Windows to earn their living, or use Windows and Linux at home.
My apologies. That should have read "some of those who use", not "those
who use" (in order to avoid ambiguity).
--
***@argonet.co.uk | RISC OS user in London? http://www.jellybaby.net/rougol/

"I rather like September." - Mike Cook
Steven Pampling
2003-09-25 20:19:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by dgs
...
gutter language that has been used in this thread by those who use
Windows to earn their living, or use Windows and Linux at home.
My apologies. That should have read "some of those who use", not "those
who use" (in order to avoid ambiguity).
Ta.
It pays the mortgage.
--
What kind of insanity destroys fields
to replace what already exists?
Stop Rugby Airport now before it's too late...
Steve Pampling
Tony Houghton
2003-09-25 19:50:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by dgs
Your article did talk about insults, hurling abuse, and some of the gutter
language that has been used in this thread by those who use Windows to
earn their living, or use Windows and Linux at home. How my criticism of
over-quoting "reinforces" any of those three categories, I have no idea.
Ha, I knew you'd jump on the "gutter" language and ignore the fact that
most of it is coming from a RISC OS advocate.

I hate hearing people who can't complete a sentence without the f-word
[1] too, but taking the moral high ground over a few b-words used in a
heated argument is just as bad.

[1] Overhead in a supermarket:

Child: Mum, I can't find the f***ing butter.
Mum: It's next to the f***ing milk.
--
Use Reply-To and DO NOT remove .nospam when replying
Steven Pampling
2003-09-25 21:36:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Houghton
Child: Mum, I can't find the f***ing butter.
Mum: It's next to the f***ing milk.
That's the effect of GM - they breed milk and butter directly (no more
cows, or milk churning)

The biggest trouble is probably the "meat and two veg" at one end of the
butter pat.
--
What kind of insanity destroys fields
to replace what already exists?
Stop Rugby Airport now before it's too late...
Steve Pampling
Tony Houghton
2003-09-26 00:21:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Pampling
Post by Tony Houghton
Child: Mum, I can't find the f***ing butter.
Mum: It's next to the f***ing milk.
That's the effect of GM - they breed milk and butter directly (no more
cows, or milk churning)
The biggest trouble is probably the "meat and two veg" at one end of the
butter pat.
But if you go for one of the classier brands, ie Saab or Cadillac rather
than Vauxhall or Chevrolet, you don't get the swearing.
--
Use Reply-To and DO NOT remove .nospam when replying
VinceH (real address)
2003-09-26 08:06:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Houghton
I hate hearing people who can't complete a sentence without
the f-word [1] too, but taking the moral high ground over a
few b-words used in a heated argument is just as bad.
I assume the 'f' in 'f-word' stands for.

Nope. Sorry. That sentence really /does/ need the
so-called f-word present to be complete. :-p
It was on a sign, above the isles? :-p

VinceH
--
VinceH can be found in the vicinity of http://www.vinceh.com
Soft Rock Software can be found around http://www.softrock.co.uk
WebChange2 for RISC OS & Windows is at http://www.webchange.co.uk
Tony Houghton
2003-09-26 12:14:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by VinceH (real address)
It was on a sign, above the isles? :-p
No, it was on the mainland :-P.
--
My real address is in the Reply-To and includes the .nospam
VinceH (real address)
2003-09-26 16:49:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Houghton
Post by VinceH (real address)
It was on a sign, above the isles? :-p
No, it was on the mainland :-P.
Gah! <g>

VinceH
--
VinceH can be found in the vicinity of http://www.vinceh.com
Soft Rock Software can be found around http://www.softrock.co.uk
WebChange2 for RISC OS & Windows is at http://www.webchange.co.uk
druck
2003-09-23 16:54:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Marsden
Would druck like it if he were conversing with someone who has knowledge of
a field in which he (druck) has little or no knowledge then turned round
and called him a moron? I have in mind the type of person who can quote
from Shakespeare, Byron, etc. who, when they find that the person to whom
they are speaking does not know these quotations (or even the author of the
quotation) then proceeds to regard that person as a moron. It is of course
a terrible attitude to take, but a common one.
This is nothing to do with knowledge of Shakespere, I couldn't care less if
someone called me a moron for not knowing being able to quote it, it doesn't
cause any damage to either party.

The difference is in this situayions is that PC users are operating a piece
of equipment which is capable of causing serious denial of service,
inconvience and material losses to other people. If they don't know anything
about these issues, they should not be connecting it to internet.

If you were run over by someome without a driving licence and never had a
lession, would you be saying "well thats ok, not everyone knows as much
about cars as me" - I dont think so.

---druck
--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
dgs
2003-09-23 18:28:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
The difference is in this situayions is that PC users are operating a
piece of equipment which is capable of causing serious denial of
service, inconvience and material losses to other people. If they don't
know anything about these issues, they should not be connecting it to
internet.
If you were run over by someome without a driving licence and never had
a lession, would you be saying "well thats ok, not everyone knows as
much about cars as me" - I dont think so.
That's the second car analogy so far in this thread, so let me join in :)

If 5% of Volvo drivers constantly drove in the middle lane in motorways,
as if they thought they owned it, a small proportion of TVR drivers might
say things like "I really don't like Volvo drivers, loads of them always
seem to drive in the middle lane and get in everyone's way!"

Replying by saying "nonsense, it's only because there are so few of you
TVR drivers that you don't do the same", would seem a little bit silly to
me.

Even sillier would be going around lecturing random TVR drivers on this
topic at great length, even if they hadn't expressed an opinion on it
themselves... just "to create a balance".
--
***@argonet.co.uk

"I currently also have a plan to design a Beowulf cluster based around
the Sinclair QL, but again I have hardware problems: I've only got one QL
and it's broken." - Frodo Morris
Steven Pampling
2003-09-23 22:18:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by dgs
If 5% of Volvo drivers constantly drove in the middle lane in motorways,
as if they thought they owned it,
If that happened then most of the regular motorway users would wonder what
had happened to change the driving habits of the other 90 -something
percent.

Or were you suggesting that an *extra* 5% might do so?
--
What kind of insanity destroys fields
to replace what already exists?
Stop Rugby Airport now before it's too late...
Steve Pampling
Glenn Richards
2003-09-26 14:08:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by dgs
If 5% of Volvo drivers constantly drove in the middle lane in
motorways, as if they thought they owned it, a small proportion of
TVR drivers might say things like "I really don't like Volvo drivers,
loads of them always seem to drive in the middle lane and get in
everyone's way!"
Actually most Volvo drivers sit in the *outside* lane as if they own it.
--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrel-net.co.uk/

"Growing old is compulsory. Growing UP is optional." -- Anon
Steven Pampling
2003-09-26 19:20:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Glenn Richards
Post by dgs
If 5% of Volvo drivers constantly drove in the middle lane in
motorways, as if they thought they owned it, a small proportion of
TVR drivers might say things like "I really don't like Volvo drivers,
loads of them always seem to drive in the middle lane and get in
everyone's way!"
Actually most Volvo drivers sit in the *outside* lane as if they own it.
Suit themselves, most motorways have road works with the outside lane
closed.

I know the suspension on Volvo's is supposed to be special but not *that*
special I suspect.
--
What kind of insanity destroys fields
to replace what already exists?
Stop Rugby Airport now before it's too late...
Steve Pampling
Glenn Richards
2003-09-27 14:15:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steven Pampling
Post by Glenn Richards
Post by dgs
If 5% of Volvo drivers constantly drove in the middle lane in
motorways, as if they thought they owned it, a small proportion
of TVR drivers might say things like "I really don't like Volvo
drivers, loads of them always seem to drive in the middle lane
and get in everyone's way!"
Actually most Volvo drivers sit in the *outside* lane as if they own it.
Suit themselves, most motorways have road works with the outside lane
closed.
Not around here. Although as you get towards London that becomes true.
Post by Steven Pampling
I know the suspension on Volvo's is supposed to be special but not
*that* special I suspect.
For the record, I drive a Fiesta.
--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrel-net.co.uk/

"Growing old is compulsory. Growing UP is optional." -- Anon
Phillip Marsden
2003-09-24 08:35:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
Post by Phillip Marsden
Would druck like it if he were conversing with someone who has knowledge of
a field in which he (druck) has little or no knowledge then turned round
and called him a moron? I have in mind the type of person who can quote
from Shakespeare, Byron, etc. who, when they find that the person to whom
they are speaking does not know these quotations (or even the author of the
quotation) then proceeds to regard that person as a moron. It is of course
a terrible attitude to take, but a common one.
This is nothing to do with knowledge of Shakespere, I couldn't care less if
someone called me a moron for not knowing being able to quote it, it doesn't
cause any damage to either party.
The difference is in this situayions is that PC users are operating a piece
of equipment which is capable of causing serious denial of service,
inconvience and material losses to other people. If they don't know anything
about these issues, they should not be connecting it to internet.
If you were run over by someome without a driving licence and never had a
lession, would you be saying "well thats ok, not everyone knows as much
about cars as me" - I dont think so.
---druck
Here was I trying to have an intelligent discussion. The example of
Shakespeare was just that, an example of what I was trying to convey to you. I
know that Shakespeare never went on the internet :o) I was trying to be polite
and get through to you in what I thought was a nice way. I was incorrect in
thinking that I could do so.

It appears, druck, that you are an angry young man, unable to control your
feelings. You dash off replies to all and sundry without a thought in your
head other than "me, me, me", without a thought about who you might offend.
You have an opinion on everything RISC OS and, judging by the amount of
posting that you do, you are going to let every one of us know those opinions,
and you certainly want the last word on every single one of them. Does this
not remind you of an earlier stage in life that you should have got beyond?

You criticise others for the slightest infringement of what YOU consider to be
absolute protocols such as top-posting, yet you care nothing for real-world
protocols like spelling or good manners. You appear to be unable to see anyone
else's point of view, and yet expect others to see and respect yours or, God
help them, you are going to ram it down their throat with the most offensive
type of reply.

Your world appears to begin and end with computers (and yourself). You are
without doubt a technically competent computer person, but as for anything
else...

As I certainly do not wish this to get into one of the famous druck v Seifert
style discussions, I will retire from this conversation, sad in the knowledge
that I have failed to get my point through to you. I am happy in the knowledge
that several others appear to agree with my general point that berating the
average Windows user is not a good thing to do. I feel that Dave Holden is
correct in saying that the insulting of Windows users will not bring them in
to the RISC OS fold, and that while you contribute greatly to the RISC OS
scene in a technical sense, you probably repel would-be RISC OS users by your
rantings.
--
Regards, Phillip Marsden.
Tony Houghton
2003-09-24 12:41:17 UTC
Permalink
In <***@btinternet.com>,
Phillip Marsden <***@btinternet.com> wrote:

[druck]
Post by Phillip Marsden
You criticise others for the slightest infringement of what YOU
consider to be absolute protocols such as top-posting, yet you care
nothing for real-world protocols like spelling or good manners.
And in so doing he garners email addresses from Usenet and sends them
unsolicited messages. Spot the parallel. ;-)
--
Use Reply-To and DO NOT remove .nospam when replying
dgs
2003-09-25 17:34:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Houghton
[druck]
Post by Phillip Marsden
You criticise others for the slightest infringement of what YOU
consider to be absolute protocols such as top-posting, yet you care
nothing for real-world protocols like spelling or good manners.
And in so doing he garners email addresses from Usenet and sends them
unsolicited messages. Spot the parallel. ;-)
Between you and him? :-)
--
***@argonet.co.uk | RISC OS user in London? http://www.jellybaby.net/rougol/

"I rather like September." - Mike Cook
Tony Houghton
2003-09-26 12:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by dgs
Post by Tony Houghton
[druck]
Post by Phillip Marsden
You criticise others for the slightest infringement of what YOU
consider to be absolute protocols such as top-posting, yet you care
nothing for real-world protocols like spelling or good manners.
And in so doing he garners email addresses from Usenet and sends them
unsolicited messages. Spot the parallel. ;-)
Between you and him? :-)
Between him and everybody in that case. But we don't both do it
apparently automatically to complete strangers, with a message
irrelevant to what they were trying to discuss...
--
My real address is in the Reply-To and includes the .nospam
dgs
2003-09-25 17:48:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Marsden
Here was I trying to have an intelligent discussion.
Hmmm... where was that bit?

Perhaps it's that viewpoint thing again - *you* think that your
contributions to the discussion are intelligent, and druck's are not...
others perhaps may have different viewpoints based on experience, and may
thus disagree with you. As time goes on, you should learn to take such
disagreements less personally.
Post by Phillip Marsden
The example of Shakespeare was just that, an example of what I was
trying to convey to you. I know that Shakespeare never went on the
internet :o)
Perhaps not, but the system on which the "world wide web" was invented,
came with a complete copy of Shakespeare's works installed on its hard
disk drive in the factory.
Post by Phillip Marsden
I was trying to be polite and get through to you in what I
thought was a nice way. I was incorrect in thinking that I could do so.
It appears, druck, that you are an angry young man, unable to control
your feelings. You dash off replies to all and sundry without a thought
in your head other than "me, me, me", without a thought about who you
might offend.
What a curious commentary, as a reply to an article in which druck
(unusually) wasn't offensive in the least. I notice that you follow it
with an extensive and critical ad hominem commentary on druck himself.

Perhaps keep as a reminder to yourself in the future, the idea that when
you "retire from this conversation" with comments of this nature, you have
perhaps become a little carried away with whatever points you were trying
to establish.
--
***@argonet.co.uk | RISC OS user in London? http://www.jellybaby.net/rougol/

"I rather like September." - Mike Cook
Steven Pampling
2003-09-26 19:22:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phillip Marsden
Here was I trying to have an intelligent discussion.
Sorry this advocacy.
--
What kind of insanity destroys fields
to replace what already exists?
Stop Rugby Airport now before it's too late...
Steve Pampling
Doctor J. Frink
2003-09-26 15:40:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by dgs
In that case, your experience of RISC OS and Windows users differs vastly
from that of myself, and indeed that of a great many other users who
contribute to the Acorn newsgroups.
Whether that's the case or not is *really* not the issue.

Some people are just stupid.
Others are ignorant.
Others are too busy to learn things.
Others are too trusting.
Others are just plain malicious.
and so on.

If your 'security' has to rely upon the users not being any of the above
then it is broken.

We need to stop blaming the users (no matter how staggeringly *daft*
they are) and make the damn system user-proof in the first place; well,
force the companies to anyway.

If someone is driving down the road and the steering wheel comes off in
their hands you don't blame the driver no matter how many times they
were told "Don't pull on the steering wheel, it's a bit loose". You
blame the manufacturer for producing a system that was potentially
dangerous in the first place.[1] We need an IT Ralph Nader.

Frink

[1] We'll overlook the fact that cars are dangerous even when they stay
in one piece ;0).
--
Doctor J. Frink : 'Rampant Ribald Ringtail'
See his mind here : http://www.cmp.liv.ac.uk/frink/
Annoy his mind here : pjf at cmp dot liv dot ack dot ook
"No sir, I didn't like it!" - Mr Horse
druck
2003-09-26 17:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doctor J. Frink
We need to stop blaming the users (no matter how staggeringly *daft*
they are) and make the damn system user-proof in the first place; well,
force the companies to anyway.
If someone is driving down the road and the steering wheel comes off in
their hands you don't blame the driver no matter how many times they
were told "Don't pull on the steering wheel, it's a bit loose". You
blame the manufacturer for producing a system that was potentially
dangerous in the first place.[1] We need an IT Ralph Nader.
A closer anology would be knowingly driving with dangerously worn tyres
getting a blowout, causing a pile up, and blocking the motorway for hours.

There was nothing wrong with the car itself, only a part the user is
responsible for fitting an maintaining. The same was as there is nothing
inherently dangerous about PC hardware, just chosing to fit dodgy remoulded
Microsoft tyres, instead of quality preimum distribution Linux radials.

---druck
--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
Doctor J. Frink
2003-09-26 19:53:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by druck
There was nothing wrong with the car itself, only a part the user is
responsible for fitting an maintaining. The same was as there is nothing
inherently dangerous about PC hardware, just chosing to fit dodgy remoulded
Microsoft tyres, instead of quality preimum distribution Linux radials.
Both can have defects, at least some of which the customer won't be
aware of. Assuming both sets of tyres were *legal* (and nobody's made
Windows illegal yet, unfortunately) if the tyre blows on the motorway
and causes a pile up, do we

a) blame the driver, who isn't an expert in tyre manufacture/repair
b) blame the garage that sold/fit them to/for the driver or
c) blame the manufacturer of the tyre?

And it's not even as if the Windows setup is an 'optional accessory',
usually it is what came with the computer. Prebuilt computers should
have the same liability for damages as any other electrical device. If
it causes someone damage without user modification it's the
System/Software supplier at fault *not* the user.

Look at one of the main reasons Linux isn't out there screwing the
internet with viruses; it's so bloody hard for Linux to catch/spread
them. You can put the stupidest user on earth (I used to work with her
;0) in front of it and it is next to impossible for her to cause damage.
The same user who would cause havoc with a insecure setup like Windows
can use a secure, properly designed one without hurting anyone else.

Or think of it this way; do we blame a child for hurting itself on
something sharp on a toy after pulling its head off, or do we blame the
toy manufacturer? You can tell kids a million times to not pull the
heads of things, but some will still do it. Stupid kids, they deserve
all they get, right?

The user is not the problem, the software is. Software that allows a
user to inadvertently harm themselves or others is broken. Full stop.

Frink
--
Doctor J. Frink : 'Rampant Ribald Ringtail'
See his mind here : http://www.cmp.liv.ac.uk/frink/
Annoy his mind here : pjf at cmp dot liv dot ack dot ook
"No sir, I didn't like it!" - Mr Horse
Steven Pampling
2003-09-27 12:46:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doctor J. Frink
Post by druck
There was nothing wrong with the car itself, only a part the user is
responsible for fitting an maintaining. The same was as there is
nothing inherently dangerous about PC hardware, just chosing to fit
dodgy remoulded Microsoft tyres, instead of quality preimum
distribution Linux radials.
Both can have defects, at least some of which the customer won't be
aware of. Assuming both sets of tyres were *legal* (and nobody's made
Windows illegal yet, unfortunately) if the tyre blows on the motorway
and causes a pile up, do we
a) blame the driver, who isn't an expert in tyre manufacture/repair
b) blame the garage that sold/fit them to/for the driver or
c) blame the manufacturer of the tyre?
b and c.

In the event of a death the remould manufacturer is guilty and the garage
is culpable.
Hang the first and let the second down after a short time :-)

[Snip]
Post by Doctor J. Frink
You can put the stupidest user on earth (I used to work with her
;0)
I suspect that there is strong competition for the title.
I can think of a few. (ever seen the old chestnut about users moving the
mouse *on the screen* in real life?)

[Snip]
--
What kind of insanity destroys fields
to replace what already exists?
Stop Rugby Airport now before it's too late...
Steve Pampling
Tony Houghton
2003-09-26 17:56:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doctor J. Frink
We need an IT Ralph Nader.
ISTR he did try to take on Microsoft a few years ago. Looks like nothing
came of it.
--
My real address is in the Reply-To and includes the .nospam
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