some questions concering 16/9

[Kristoff Bonne]

Greetings,


A couple of weeks ago, the power-supply of my (10 year old) TV-set died,
so about two weeks ago, I had to buy myself a new TV-set ( a 70 cm 16/9 TV
from philips).


Anycase, there are some questions concering the 4/3 to 16/9 switching.

- When I watch TV-channels via cable or the antenna, the sets switches
between 4/3 and 16/9 (16/9 zoom-mode) automatically. (I guess this based
on what it receives in the PAL+ signalling).

But, when I watch TV-channels via satellite (coming from my satellite
set-top-box), there is no automatic switching. (The connection is done via
a SCART cable, and I tried "composite", S-video and RBG).

1/ Isn't there supposted to be a pin in the SCART-plug that signals the
TV-set if a program that is received is in 4/3 or in 16/9?

2/ When I tune to a program that is broadcasted in 16/9 and the TV-set is
set to 4/3, I get two possible senarios:

. Sometimes (e.g. in the case of the BBC) , the image is horizontally
compressed and I need to set the TV to "16/9 widescreen", to get the
normal picture.

. In other cases, the image only takes up a part of the screen (in the
center of the display), and I need to set the TV to "16/9 zoom" to get the
normal picture.

The odd thing is that ARD "Das Erste", the first channel of the public
broadcaster, seems to use both systems. On Astra 19.2 I need to use
"widescreen" and on hotbird I need "16/9 zoom".


Can somebody explain this?

Is there somebody with a DVB-S PC-card who can compair the technical
details of ARD/Das Erste on astra 19 (11836H, 27500, 3/4) and on hotbird
(11604H, 27500, 5/6)?



While we are at it, another question:

DOes somebody have a URL for a "test-screen" or other screens with
test-paterns (you know, colour-bars, the paterns that generate this
strange color-effects on PAL, ...)?

If possible in MPEG video and for both 4/3 and 16/9 screenformats.



Cheerio! Kr. Bonne.

[R. Mark Clayton]

Post by Kristoff Bonne
Greetings,
A couple of weeks ago, the power-supply of my (10 year old) TV-set died,
so about two weeks ago, I had to buy myself a new TV-set ( a 70 cm 16/9 TV
from philips).
Anycase, there are some questions concering the 4/3 to 16/9 switching.
- When I watch TV-channels via cable or the antenna, the sets switches
between 4/3 and 16/9 (16/9 zoom-mode) automatically. (I guess this based
on what it receives in the PAL+ signalling).
But, when I watch TV-channels via satellite (coming from my satellite
set-top-box), there is no automatic switching. (The connection is done via
a SCART cable, and I tried "composite", S-video and RBG).
1/ Isn't there supposted to be a pin in the SCART-plug that signals the
TV-set if a program that is received is in 4/3 or in 16/9?

Yes.

Buy a "fully wired" cable - then it should work.

Post by Kristoff Bonne
2/ When I tune to a program that is broadcasted in 16/9 and the TV-set is
. Sometimes (e.g. in the case of the BBC) , the image is horizontally
compressed and I need to set the TV to "16/9 widescreen", to get the
normal picture.
. In other cases, the image only takes up a part of the screen (in the
center of the display), and I need to set the TV to "16/9 zoom" to get the
normal picture.
The odd thing is that ARD "Das Erste", the first channel of the public
broadcaster, seems to use both systems. On Astra 19.2 I need to use
"widescreen" and on hotbird I need "16/9 zoom".
Can somebody explain this?

Yes the TV uses the last setting it had.

Post by Kristoff Bonne
Is there somebody with a DVB-S PC-card who can compair the technical
details of ARD/Das Erste on astra 19 (11836H, 27500, 3/4) and on hotbird
(11604H, 27500, 5/6)?
DOes somebody have a URL for a "test-screen" or other screens with
test-paterns (you know, colour-bars, the paterns that generate this
strange color-effects on PAL, ...)?
If possible in MPEG video and for both 4/3 and 16/9 screenformats.
Cheerio! Kr. Bonne.
--
Kristoff Bonne, Bredene, BEL
H323 VoIP: callto://krbonne.homelinux.net/
[nl] [fr] [en] [de]

[Kristoff Bonne]

Gegroet,

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by Kristoff Bonne
1/ Isn't there supposted to be a pin in the SCART-plug that signals the
TV-set if a program that is received is in 4/3 or in 16/9?

Yes.
Buy a "fully wired" cable - then it should work.

Well, yesterday I found out there's a second issue. Make sure your TV is
connected to the "TV" scart interface on the set-top-box and not on the
"VCR" interface.
:-)


How stupid of me!


It now works OK for me.

(BTW. I didn't say this last time. The Settopbox is a Humax F1-5000
FTA-only).

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by Kristoff Bonne
The odd thing is that ARD "Das Erste", the first channel of the public
broadcaster, seems to use both systems. On Astra 19.2 I need to use
"widescreen" and on hotbird I need "16/9 zoom".
Can somebody explain this?

Yes the TV uses the last setting it had.

Well, in this case, it did turn out to be as Stephen wrote: it seems to
depend on the input of the original video-signal.


Anycase, thanks to all who replied!


Cheerio! Kr. Bonne.

[Stephen Neal]

On 18/5/04 8:38 pm, in article

Post by Kristoff Bonne
Gegroet,

Post by R. Mark Clayton

Post by Kristoff Bonne
1/ Isn't there supposted to be a pin in the SCART-plug that signals the
TV-set if a program that is received is in 4/3 or in 16/9?

Yes.
Buy a "fully wired" cable - then it should work.

Well, yesterday I found out there's a second issue. Make sure your TV is
connected to the "TV" scart interface on the set-top-box and not on the
"VCR" interface.
:-)

Aah - yes. Many receivers don't output status switching on the VCR SCART
(as it instead usually loops-through to the TV output when the VCR pin 8
status OUTPUT from the VCR is raised?)

Sky receivers are even more complicated I believe. Pin 8 on the VCR is an
input - UNLESS the personal planner autoview is enabled - then the Pin 8
becomes an output (as some VCRs can be forced to record automatically when
Pin 8 on their input SCART is raised) and DOES signal 4:3/16:9. (In standby
only?)

Post by Kristoff Bonne
How stupid of me!

Not at all - though VCR SCARTS are normally composite (or s-video) only -
whereas TV SCARTs are normally RGB - so the picture quality from the TV
SCART is likely to be better than that of the VCR SCART.


Steve

[Stephen Neal]

On 16/5/04 11:37 pm, in article

Post by Kristoff Bonne
Greetings,

Hi Kristoff

Interesting questions you raise. I think we are slightly spoiled in the UK
as the main broadcasters and manufacturers have worked hard on their 16:9
stuff over the last 5-6 years. (This is admittedly helped by only having a
popular single satellite platform with a totally controlled hardware
platform - Sky Digital, and a strong DTT group)

The broadcasters are very hot on their 16:9 production and broadcast - the
BBC now only make 1 or 2 4:3 shows (Parkinson, about to finish, and Top of
the Pops 2) and most of the 4:3 stuff shown is either repeats of archive
material, or bought-in stuff from the US such as TV movies.

I read in this months TeleSatellite that the situation in Germany and France
is not as good...

Post by Kristoff Bonne
A couple of weeks ago, the power-supply of my (10 year old) TV-set died,
so about two weeks ago, I had to buy myself a new TV-set ( a 70 cm 16/9 TV
from philips).
Anycase, there are some questions concering the 4/3 to 16/9 switching.
- When I watch TV-channels via cable or the antenna, the sets switches
between 4/3 and 16/9 (16/9 zoom-mode) automatically. (I guess this based
on what it receives in the PAL+ signalling).

Could be Line 23 WSS embedded in the analogue broadcasts to signal 16:9
letterboxing in a 4:3 frame. (This was part of the PAL + standard, but can
be broadcast independently of PAL +)

However some TV sets also have a crude "letterbox detection" system that
just looks for areas of black at the top and bottom of the frame. It gets
confused with 4:3 full-screen programmes that contain letterbox clips quite
often though...

Post by Kristoff Bonne
But, when I watch TV-channels via satellite (coming from my satellite
set-top-box), there is no automatic switching. (The connection is done via
a SCART cable, and I tried "composite", S-video and RBG).
1/ Isn't there supposted to be a pin in the SCART-plug that signals the
TV-set if a program that is received is in 4/3 or in 16/9?

Yes - there is. Pin 8 on the SCART connector (aka STATUS) was modified in
the SCART standard when 16:9 stuff was introduced. It has three states :

0V - Inactive
5V - 16:9 - Active
12V - 4:3 - Active

(These voltages from memory - and they have a wide-ish +/- range)

When a digital satellite/cable/terrestrial receiver receives a 16:9 FHA
(Full Height Anamorphic - i.e. Not letterboxed within a 4:3 frame) correctly
signalled by the broadcaster (an important thing to note) AND the digital
receiver is configured to output for a 16:9 TV screen - then the output
should be in 16:9 and the SCART plug should signal this.

Additionally Line 23 WSS can also signal the presence of a 16:9 FHA signal -
and some receivers use this in addition to the pin 8 on SCARTs. The
advantage of Line 23 is that it is also carried by phono composite, mini-din
s-video and even RF interconnects as well as SCART.

Post by Kristoff Bonne
2/ When I tune to a program that is broadcasted in 16/9 and the TV-set is
. Sometimes (e.g. in the case of the BBC) , the image is horizontally
compressed and I need to set the TV to "16/9 widescreen", to get the
normal picture.

The BBC broadcast in 16:9 FHA on all their digital platforms (i.e. The full
height and width of the broadcast signal contain picture information - when
displayed on a 4:3 TV, or a 16:9 TV in 4:3 mode, you get tall-thin people!)
This means none of the broadcast resolution is wasted broadcasting black
bars top and bottom - effectively the 702x576 frame contains a 16:9 rather
than a 4:3 image - the pixels/samples are just a bit wider!

The BBC broadcast the correct MPEG2 16:9 header information - and Sky
Digital receivers (as well as my Hauppauge DVB-S card + LinuxVDR software)
recognise this and trigger 16:9 display modes via SCART pin 8 and/or Line 23
WSS.

This is a proper full-resolution 576/50i SDTV 16:9 broadcast.

(There are reports that not all FTA digital receivers correctly detect the
BBC 16:9 MPEG2 signalling - though many do)

Post by Kristoff Bonne
. In other cases, the image only takes up a part of the screen (in the
center of the display), and I need to set the TV to "16/9 zoom" to get the
normal picture.

This sounds like a 16:9 source picture, letterboxed by the broadcaster
before uplink to fill a 4:3 frame with black bars above and below, and
broadcast in 4:3. The 16:9 picture is of lower resolution (it only uses 432
of the 576 active lines). It may or may not carry any signalling
information to indicate that it is a 16:9 letterbox.

Post by Kristoff Bonne
The odd thing is that ARD "Das Erste", the first channel of the public
broadcaster, seems to use both systems. On Astra 19.2 I need to use
"widescreen" and on hotbird I need "16/9 zoom".

Not sure - could one feed be sourced from an analogue feed and thus
permanently 4:3 (similar to the BBC analogue terrestrial broadcasts), and
the other a fully switched 16:9/4:3 full-height feed?

Your receiver is configured for 16:9 rather than 4:3 output isn't it? The
other explanation could be that your receiver configured for 4:3 output in
letterbox. In other words it is letterboxing 16:9 signals it receives to
16:9 letterbox in a 4:3 frame when they are correctly signalled as 16:9 -
however if they aren't signalled as 16:9 it assumes they are 4:3 (even
though they aren't) and outputs the 16:9 anamorphic version instead (i.e.
Tall thin people until you flick to WIDE on your TV)

The fact that the BBC is output 16:9 FHA rather than letterbox implies this
isn't the case?

Post by Kristoff Bonne
Can somebody explain this?
Is there somebody with a DVB-S PC-card who can compair the technical
details of ARD/Das Erste on astra 19 (11836H, 27500, 3/4) and on hotbird
(11604H, 27500, 5/6)?

Sadly my DVB-S card is only fed from Astra 2 at 28.2 currently...

Post by Kristoff Bonne
DOes somebody have a URL for a "test-screen" or other screens with
test-paterns (you know, colour-bars, the paterns that generate this
strange color-effects on PAL, ...)?

For UK cards do a google on TCW or TCF or TCJ or Test Card W, F , J etc.

Post by Kristoff Bonne
If possible in MPEG video and for both 4/3 and 16/9 screenformats.

In the BBC TCW (TestCard Wide) is used a lot these days - and it has 4:3,
14:9 and 16:9 markers etc. TCJ is the 4:3 equivalent.

There are now special test sequences in the MPEG format, as well as the
digital component domain. The MPEG2 sequences move - as they need to test
the motion aspects as well as other aspects of the transmission system.

The digital component systems require different test signals in some areas
to those used for composite systems. (TCJ and TCF are the digital and PAL
4:3 BBC test signals for example. They look similar but not identical?)

Steve

[Hervé Benoit]

Post by Stephen Neal
Yes - there is. Pin 8 on the SCART connector (aka STATUS) was modified in
0V - Inactive
5V - 16:9 - Active

in fact it's 6V typical, but 5V would work in most cases

Post by Stephen Neal
12V - 4:3 - Active

BTW, most recent receivers use also the C input of the S-video connector to
indicate the format by a sumperimposed DC voltage (I am not sure if they use
the same values as for the SCART pin 8).

Post by Stephen Neal
When a digital satellite/cable/terrestrial receiver receives a 16:9 FHA
(Full Height Anamorphic - i.e. Not letterboxed within a 4:3 frame) correctly
signalled by the broadcaster (an important thing to note) AND the digital
receiver is configured to output for a 16:9 TV screen - then the output
should be in 16:9 and the SCART plug should signal this.

Of course, for the format control to work with pin 8, the screen has to be
declared as 16/9 in the installation menu.
However, some satellite receivers do the format switching automatically (my
Aston Simba does this for example on the BBC channels), some dont (I have
also a Kaon KSC570 receiver which does not do it automatically even if the
screen is installed as 16/9, but it has a key allowing to control the format
between 4/3 full screen, 4/3 letterbox and 16/9 full).

Post by Stephen Neal
(There are reports that not all FTA digital receivers correctly detect the
BBC 16:9 MPEG2 signalling - though many do)

Many detect the broadcast format, and use it for example to make a 4/3
letterbox or full screen picture out of the original 16/9 FHA, but some do
not feed the info to the SCART pin 8 (like the above Kaon receiver).
Hervé