Interesting to note

Post by what's his name
What company do you know that loses an average of over
$ 1,000,000.00 (One Million Dollars US) per week, and has for some
time, and appears will have those loses increase to over
$ 1,500,000.00 (One-&-One-Half Million Dollars US) per week, yet has
revenue streams only a small percentage of those amounts, can possibly
stay in business?

A private company run out of the IMS using Grandma's money.

Question for you : How can a company, that has lost over 60 % of its
customers, be considered a "thriving" company that will set the
standard for all others (Especially so when even its sponsors say
that they only care about one its products and wish that they could
eliminate the other 15 products) ?

Juan

what's his name

2003-07-17 23:52:45 UTC

A private company run out of the IMS using Grandma's money.

At least IMS makes money.

Post by Juan
Question for you : How can a company, that has lost over 60 % of its
customers, be considered a "thriving" company that will set the
standard for all others (Especially so when even its sponsors say
that they only care about one its products and wish that they could
eliminate the other 15 products) ?

When people like ABC actually pay to televise its events and teams
like Roger Penske decide its the place to be. When sponsors like
Marlboro, Miller, Pennzoil, Mobil, Pioneer, Hollywood, Klein Tool,
Archipelago, Target, etc. and suppliers like Toyota and Honda decide
that their marketing dollars are better spent there than in their
previous series.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-18 20:30:37 UTC

They want Indy, not the IRL. Furthemore, they are in the IRL until
they can gain access to Nascar;

Arn't Roger Penske, Miller, Pennzoil, Mobil, Target already in, or have
been, in NASCAR?

After all, every race in Nascar gets more viewers than Indy.

Well 16 of them anyway.

Now, why is it that penske et. al. want the IRL to add road courses to
its schedule and to get CART's Nafta races ?

There has been some desire expressed but nothing serious mentioned by
anyone with credibility, and I've never heard of any IRL NAFTA
aspirations. They won't get any serious crowds in Mexico or Canada unless
NASCAR can sell out tracks there with with season tickets and they can get
in on that.

Tom

Juan

2003-07-19 04:18:31 UTC

Post by Tom Hiett
Arn't Roger Penske, Miller, Pennzoil, Mobil, Target already in, or have
been, in NASCAR?

yes, but they will have to move there for good w/o any open-wheel
involvement.

After all, every race in Nascar gets more viewers than Indy.

Well 16 of them anyway.

That was last year. This year, even the road course at Sonoma got
better ratings than Indy. This year, Indy may not make it into the top
30 in the US.

Post by Tom Hiett
There has been some desire expressed but nothing serious mentioned by
anyone with credibility, and I've never heard of any IRL NAFTA
aspirations. They won't get any serious crowds in Mexico or Canada unless
NASCAR can sell out tracks there with with season tickets and they can get
in on that.

Penske was quoted as saying that the IRL needs to take over CART's
Canadian races. The IRL already wants Mid-Ohio and they have made
inquiries into Long Beach and Road America.

Juan

cfswestern

2003-07-19 04:22:26 UTC

Post by Tom Hiett
Arn't Roger Penske, Miller, Pennzoil, Mobil, Target already in, or have
been, in NASCAR?

yes, but they will have to move there for good w/o any open-wheel
involvement.

After all, every race in Nascar gets more viewers than Indy.

Well 16 of them anyway.

That was last year. This year, even the road course at Sonoma got
better ratings than Indy. This year, Indy may not make it into the top
30 in the US.

Penske was quoted as saying that the IRL needs to take over CART's
Canadian races. The IRL already wants Mid-Ohio and they have made
inquiries into Long Beach and Road America.

If CART ever runs itself totally into the ground with its shrewd business
practices that does not mean that Penske can just cherry pick the venues.
You know darn well somebody will start another series, or perhaps more than
one.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-21 13:01:41 UTC

Post by Juan
Penske was quoted as saying that the IRL needs to take over CART's
Canadian races. The IRL already wants Mid-Ohio and they have made
inquiries into Long Beach and Road America.

Penske isn't the IRL, and although rumoured, a couple people at RA have
denied any contact whatsoever with the IRL. The track makes its money from
attendence and a IRL road race out in the middle of nowhere without being
part of a season ticket package with a NASCAR event shows little promise.

But... come to think of it, it is rumoured NASCAR is talking with another
road course...

Tom

tjmc

2003-07-21 13:21:59 UTC

But... come to think of it, it is rumoured NASCAR is talking with another [road course]

I hope the only question left is will they run it clockwise like F1 or
counter.

Karl S

2003-07-21 14:32:54 UTC

Post by Tom Hiett
Penske isn't the IRL, and although rumoured, a couple people at RA have
denied any contact whatsoever with the IRL. The track makes its money from
attendence and a IRL road race out in the middle of nowhere without being
part of a season ticket package with a NASCAR event shows little promise.
But... come to think of it, it is rumoured NASCAR is talking with another
road course...

They have raced at RA in the past.

cfswestern

2003-07-21 15:26:59 UTC

Post by Tom Hiett
But... come to think of it, it is rumoured NASCAR is talking with another
road course...

Not in the main series they are not. Now at a road course some of the

1000

NASCAR people giving countless interviews may say some nice things about
road racing. But the does not mean what you implied.

I said its rumoured they are talking to another road course. What is it
you are implying that I am implied?

Hell, some road course that wants attention can have their PR flack start
that rumor themselves. Or NASCAR/Goodyear could simply be looking for tire
testing dates. But the implication that NASCAR may add an additional road
race to the two that they have is total nonsense.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-21 15:40:56 UTC

Post by cfswestern
Hell, some road course that wants attention can have their PR flack start
that rumor themselves. Or NASCAR/Goodyear could simply be looking for tire
testing dates. But the implication that NASCAR may add an additional road
race to the two that they have is total nonsense.

Getting a course to test on is no big deal. You pay your money and show
up. I've heard no track names mentioned and I said nothing about NASCAR
adding an additional road course.

Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-21 15:58:48 UTC

Getting a course to test on is no big deal. You pay your money and show
up. I've heard no track names mentioned and I said nothing about NASCAR
adding an additional road course.
Tom

Story...rumor...speculation....wishful thinking....nothing. I think your
rumor has pretty much reached that nothing stage.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-21 16:05:22 UTC

Post by cfswestern
Story...rumor...speculation....wishful thinking....nothing. I think your
rumor has pretty much reached that nothing stage.

Not my rumor, and things often appear to be nothing before they happen.

Tom

Tom Hiett

2003-07-21 17:31:25 UTC

Some of them would doubtless be thrilled to be touched by NASCAR's temporary
magic wand. So the rumors will abound and like most auto racing rumors they
will eventually reach that nothing stage.

Even if it doesn't come to be, that doesn't mean inquiries and discussions
aren't happening.

Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-21 18:06:48 UTC

Some of them would doubtless be thrilled to be touched by NASCAR's temporary
magic wand. So the rumors will abound and like most auto racing rumors they
will eventually reach that nothing stage.

Even if it doesn't come to be, that doesn't mean inquiries and discussions
aren't happening.

I understand this also. Tasty rumors are a *very* large part of auto
racing. Bernie is going to buy CART. Great rumor. Forsythe is going to buy
CART. Great rumor. CART is going to have V10's by 2005. Great rumor.
Since you cannot disprove a negative rumors abound. I think Paul Allen of
Microsoft should buy CART. Start a rumor. Paul Allen likes to buy sports
teams and he has a lot of experience fighting business lawsuits. So it
would be a perfect fit.

Compared to any other sport auto racing has the fewest number of events. So
all the down time gets filled with rumors and proposed rule changes and what
if Fangio raced Richard Petty and all of that other silliness. Suits me
fine. That is just part of auto racing. How much would it cost for
CART/IRL/F1 to buy Jeff Gordon for five seasons? I dunno. But it makes for
some good bench racing. Personally I think an exception should be made and
Michael S should be allowed to one off one single NASCAR race next season.
Some low speed Martinsville or Bristol where he almost certainly could not
get injured. There is a rumor.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-21 18:18:45 UTC

Post by cfswestern
I understand this also. Tasty rumors are a *very* large part of auto
racing. Bernie is going to buy CART. Great rumor. Forsythe is going to buy
CART. Great rumor. CART is going to have V10's by 2005. Great rumor.
Since you cannot disprove a negative rumors abound.

You seem stuck in the if it doesn't happen so its a false rumor rut. Lots
of things get tossed around and considered before ultimately being passed
on. If there are indeed discussions but the dicision ultimately is to not
proceed, or other events interfere, the rumor could still be an accurate
reflection of what was happening.

I think Paul Allen of

Post by cfswestern
Microsoft should buy CART. Start a rumor. Paul Allen likes to buy sports
teams and he has a lot of experience fighting business lawsuits. So it
would be a perfect fit.

Lawsuits? For the crappy software he made his fortune on?

Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-21 18:55:39 UTC

Post by cfswestern
Microsoft should buy CART. Start a rumor. Paul Allen likes to buy sports
teams and he has a lot of experience fighting business lawsuits. So it
would be a perfect fit.

Lawsuits? For the crappy software he made his fortune on?

There is a great difference between things being tossed about by the people
who could make them happen and things being tossed about by fans. The flaw
in your argument is that you want to treat them as one in the same.

Auto racing for a profit is a tough game, and has been for nearly a century
now. I do not make fun of CART for trying to compete with F1/IRL/NASCAR for
fans and sponsors and TV time and respect. I do not know what their
alternate choice would have been. Roll over and play dead?

You cannot mandate XX amount of passing but you can run on a course wide
enough for passing. You cannot demand fans but you can avoid the temptation
to claim fans you simply do not have. If you run your first race at some
Mexican tourist trap and issue a gushing press release that likens in to the
NA Monte Carlo Grand Prix you just make a pompous ass out of yourself.

I honestly do not have a racing and marketing plan that would be foolproof
for CART. But if I did I would happily suggest it here and they could have
it for free. Tigers Woods and the Williams sisters seem to be rather popular
so perhaps something like that might be the ticket.

cfswestern

2003-07-21 19:30:02 UTC

Post by cfswestern
There is a great difference between things being tossed about by the people
who could make them happen and things being tossed about by fans. The flaw
in your argument is that you want to treat them as one in the same.

No. I treat a rumor as something that may or may not happen. It may have
merit or it may not. The rumor at face value may not mean what some imply
it means. It may seem plausible, probably, or logical, but historically
that doesn't really mean anything until something factual happens or is
revealed to have happened.

Post by cfswestern
Auto racing for a profit is a tough game, and has been for nearly a century
now. I do not make fun of CART for trying to compete with F1/IRL/NASCAR for
fans and sponsors and TV time and respect. I do not know what their
alternate choice would have been. Roll over and play dead?
You cannot mandate XX amount of passing but you can run on a course wide
enough for passing. You cannot demand fans but you can avoid the temptation
to claim fans you simply do not have. If you run your first race at some
Mexican tourist trap and issue a gushing press release that likens in to the
NA Monte Carlo Grand Prix you just make a pompous ass out of yourself.
I honestly do not have a racing and marketing plan that would be foolproof
for CART. But if I did I would happily suggest it here and they could have
it for free. Tigers Woods and the Williams sisters seem to be rather popular
so perhaps something like that might be the ticket.

Once again I haven't a clue what you are talking about.
Most people don't know what the Monte Carlo Grand Prix is. BTW- isn't it
the Monaco Grand Prix?

Splitting hairs? Roberts Rules of Order?

I do not have much more clue of what you are talking about either. You
switch about too much.

Are you saying that Americans deserve open wheel road racing or are you
saying that open wheel road racing deserves American money?

America features perhaps 30 large paved ovals and perhaps six decent road
courses. So in raw numbers Americans prefer ovals by 5:1. Factor in the
attendance and it becomes 35:1. So are you saying that 34 out of 35
Americans are wrong about what they choose to spend their time and money on?

Tom Hiett

2003-07-21 19:49:37 UTC

Post by cfswestern
I do not have much more clue of what you are talking about either. You
switch about too much.

You said "The flaw in your argument is that you want to treat them as one
in the same."

Treat what as one in the same? The bit about it being different coming
from fans or those in the biz? I consider both to be amusing and fun to
discuss but neither to be factual until something happenes. We usually
don't know the initial source of the information. Presumably the origins
of rumors are tied to someone in the know or it would be considered mere
speculation instead of rumor.

Post by cfswestern
Are you saying that Americans deserve open wheel road racing or are you
saying that open wheel road racing deserves American money?

This doesn't bear much resemblance to the topic in your last post. I
didn't respond to anything concerning what fans or racing deserve.

Post by cfswestern
America features perhaps 30 large paved ovals and perhaps six decent road
courses. So in raw numbers Americans prefer ovals by 5:1.

Track owners prefer to own ovals to road courses by 5:1.

Post by cfswestern
Factor in the
attendance and it becomes 35:1. So are you saying that 34 out of 35
Americans are wrong about what they choose to spend their time and money on?

I don't care what other like or spend their money on. I'm not trying to
diss oval fans or convert them.

Tom

what's his name

2003-07-23 15:46:06 UTC

Post by cfswestern
Story...rumor...speculation....wishful thinking....nothing. I think your
rumor has pretty much reached that nothing stage.

Not my rumor, and things often appear to be nothing before they happen.

Or they simply remain nothing - like somebody actually wanting to buy
CART.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-23 15:39:15 UTC

Post by Tom Hiett
Not my rumor, and things often appear to be nothing before they happen.

Or they simply remain nothing - like somebody actually wanting to buy
CART.

Some people *have* expressed a desire.

Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-23 16:05:31 UTC

Post by Tom Hiett
Not my rumor, and things often appear to be nothing before they happen.

Or they simply remain nothing - like somebody actually wanting to buy
CART.

Some people *have* expressed a desire.

There is only one problem. Americans do not care for road racing. Never
did as a matter of fact. CART wanted an international road racing series so
they have one. That last race in Australia was a real doozy.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-23 16:11:22 UTC

Post by cfswestern
There is only one problem. Americans do not care for road racing.

I think you've mentioned that a hundred times or so.

Post by cfswestern
That last race in Australia was a real doozy.

When you get older you will understand picking and choosing selective
events to support a general view is a bad idea.

Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-23 16:46:14 UTC

Post by cfswestern
There is only one problem. Americans do not care for road racing.

I think you've mentioned that a hundred times or so.

Post by cfswestern
That last race in Australia was a real doozy.

When you get older you will understand picking and choosing selective
events to support a general view is a bad idea.

CART only has so many events to choose from. The Fontana one might be good
but those temporary street circuits are too narrow and have too many 90
degree turns.

g***@fuse.net

2003-07-23 18:12:25 UTC

So you speak for all Americans? No, then how the hell do you come up
with this? How pray tell do the road courses stay in business? Why
is it that NASCAR still runs two road course races every year?

You know, you really should read what you type before you hit that
send button. If you did, you might be able to better hide what an
idiot you really are.

Gary

Post by cfswestern
Americans do not care for road racing. Never
did as a matter of fact.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-23 18:27:34 UTC

Post by cfswestern
Americans do not care for road racing.

Then why are there road courses in the US? Why did TG carve up IMS for the
F1 track? Why do all those people in the US go to them? Why do Audi,
Chevy, Porsche, and others race in the US year after year? Why does France
keep the Daytona road course open? Why did Penske and Ganassi run in CART
all of those years? How did CART make it 25 years? Why does the IMS museum
have road racers on display? Why the rumors of the IRL wanting to go road
course?

Post by cfswestern
Never did as a matter of fact.

This is a "fact"?

Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-23 18:34:54 UTC

Post by cfswestern
Americans do not care for road racing.

Post by cfswestern
Never did as a matter of fact.

This is a "fact"?

Yes it is a fact. Americans want high speed racing, not that silly road
racing stuff.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-23 18:44:11 UTC

Post by cfswestern
Yes it is a fact. Americans want high speed racing, not that silly road
racing stuff.

Sounds like an opinion...

tjmc

2003-07-24 00:52:03 UTC

Why did TG carve up IMS for the F1 track?

Turb, you getting these down?

Turbo Al

2003-07-24 12:04:59 UTC

Post by tjmc

Why did TG carve up IMS for the F1 track?

Turb, you getting these down?

Appeal denied :-) Influencing the judges is not allowed under rule
128, para 28, sub para t. Besides "Juan" is posting up a storm of
stupidity this week. I think he's using sWeenie's artificial stupidity
program.

Cheers, TA

2003-07-23 19:26:26 UTC

Post by g***@fuse.net
So you speak for all Americans? No, then how the hell do you come up
with this? How pray tell do the road courses stay in business? Why
is it that NASCAR still runs two road course races every year?
You know, you really should read what you type before you hit that
send button. If you did, you might be able to better hide what an
idiot you really are.

Yes I do speak for all Americans. And all of us Americans do not care
for road racing.

Oh!

Both of you!

Well, that's cleared up, then.

Chris Story

cfswestern

2003-07-23 19:33:18 UTC

Post by C

Yes I do speak for all Americans. And all of us Americans do not care
for road racing.

Oh!
Both of you!
Well, that's cleared up, then.

I am open to evidence to the contrary. What is the Super Bowl of road
racing in America? I suppose it might well be the Long Beach "Grand Prix"
race. Like that is a big deal.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-23 19:51:33 UTC

Post by cfswestern
I am open to evidence to the contrary. What is the Super Bowl of road
racing in America? I suppose it might well be the Long Beach "Grand Prix"
race. Like that is a big deal.

12 Hours of Sebring. Drivers and factory teams come from all over the
world for it, year after year. Huge fan turn out and extensive Speed
coverage.

Daytona used to be good but France killed it off with what else- tube
frame prototypes.

Tom

Tom Hiett

2003-07-23 20:33:03 UTC

Sebring is in America? From the sound of the name I thought it was in
France or somewhere. Learn something every day.

Never heard about AJ passing 50 cars on the opening lap in a GS Corvette?
or Rodrigus and Kinnunen in the Gulf 917K in 917? Or Andretti's three
wins? (well, two real wins), McQueen with the broken leg finishing second?
AJ winning it with Wolleck? Chaparral's, Fangios, Moss or Gurney's wins or
the epic Ferrari/Ford or Porsche/Ferrari battles?

Perhaps you should avoid becoming entangled in discussions on road racing.

Tom

Tom Hiett

2003-07-23 20:56:40 UTC

Post by Tom Hiett
Perhaps you should avoid becoming entangled in discussions on road racing.

Never heard of any of that. Did anything like that happen in this century?

Not as much. Its sort of like Indy in that regard.

Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-23 21:03:27 UTC

Post by Tom Hiett
Perhaps you should avoid becoming entangled in discussions on road racing.

Never heard of any of that. Did anything like that happen in this century?

Not as much. Its sort of like Indy in that regard.
Tom

This Sebring place packs in 400,000 for their big race?

Smokey

2003-07-24 13:38:59 UTC

Post by Tom Hiett
Not my rumor, and things often appear to be nothing before they happen.

Or they simply remain nothing - like somebody actually wanting to buy
CART.

Some people *have* expressed a desire.
Tom

Well, you can desire in one hand in crap in the other.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-22 13:55:59 UTC

Post by Tom Hiett
Getting a course to test on is no big deal. You pay your money and show
up. I've heard no track names mentioned and I said nothing about NASCAR
adding an additional road course.

Nascar is heavily rumored to adding another race for next year, and Texas
most likley will get the nod.

Maybe discussions are for 2005, or maybe they are hedging their bets.

Tom

Smokey

2003-07-22 14:25:45 UTC

Jayski's site and many others including several watering holes right here in
Daytona(France owned)Caribbean Jacks have next years schedule at 37 races
plus the Bud and Nextel all star deals.

Post by Tom Hiett
Getting a course to test on is no big deal. You pay your money and show
up. I've heard no track names mentioned and I said nothing about NASCAR
adding an additional road course.

Nascar is heavily rumored to adding another race for next year, and Texas
most likley will get the nod.

Maybe discussions are for 2005, or maybe they are hedging their bets.
Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-22 14:56:27 UTC

Post by Smokey
Jayski's site and many others including several watering holes right here in
Daytona(France owned)Caribbean Jacks have next years schedule at 37 races
plus the Bud and Nextel all star deals.

Anything that appears on Jayski's site can be considered a lie.

cfswestern

2003-07-23 14:16:22 UTC

The idiots at Jayski do not plot doom and gloom. Nor do they discredit
series and participants/leaders of others.
AR~1 is one of the most loudest of the Cart drum beaters that seem to be
losing thier drumsticks!

The CART deal is very simple. The most expensive cars with the fewest fans.
So they get squeezed out once their money runs out. Yes CART does seem to
be beloved in Canada and Long Beach,CA. If they can make an overpriced
series out of that more power to them.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-23 14:35:18 UTC

Post by cfswestern
The CART deal is very simple. The most expensive cars with the fewest fans.
So they get squeezed out once their money runs out. Yes CART does seem to
be beloved in Canada and Long Beach,CA. If they can make an overpriced
series out of that more power to them.

As a fan, what do I car what a car costs?

Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-23 15:42:23 UTC

As a fan, what do I car what a car costs?

The same as I do, not in the least. But in order for there to be auto races
there have to be cars and teams. And somebody has to pay for them. Not you
or I, but somebody does. And at the present time it does not appear to be
sponsors.

cfswestern

2003-07-23 16:17:44 UTC

Post by Tom Hiett
As a fan, what do I car what a car costs?

I don't think the price of the cars is the root of CART's problems, and
its the third year for many of the chassis.

And I think it is. So one of us is wrong. I saw CART's press release where
they are only going to travel 15 people per car next season. At some point
the costs have to come down to meet the revenues.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-23 16:25:08 UTC

Post by cfswestern
And I think it is. So one of us is wrong. I saw CART's press release where
they are only going to travel 15 people per car next season.

You mean the price to maintain and support each car? That's a lot
different than saying the cars are too expensive. Neither of us is wrong
because we're not even talking about the same thing.

Post by cfswestern
At some point the costs have to come down to meet the revenues.

At some point they have to meet. That could mean the cost of campaigning a
car has to come down, or the renenues need to increase, or a comination of
both.

Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-23 16:48:13 UTC

Post by cfswestern
And I think it is. So one of us is wrong. I saw CART's press release where
they are only going to travel 15 people per car next season.

You mean the price to maintain and support each car? That's a lot
different than saying the cars are too expensive. Neither of us is wrong
because we're not even talking about the same thing.

Post by cfswestern
At some point the costs have to come down to meet the revenues.

At some point they have to meet. That could mean the cost of campaigning a
car has to come down, or the renenues need to increase, or a comination of
both.

Most of the races are just too lousy to expect the revenues to increase. I
watched that Toronto race and thought WTF is this? The interviews with the
nifty people in the paddock were a whole lot better than the so-called race.

Smokey

2003-07-24 13:33:23 UTC

As a fan, what do I car what a car costs?
Tom

I dont know why you dont car what a car costs. :-)
But as a fan you dislike the IRL.
Ok, I dont care and you dont car!!

Tom Hiett

2003-07-23 14:12:56 UTC

Best of Jayski 2002: NASCAR is considering getting rid of the electronic
ignition and going back to points to eliminate any chance of traction
control.
Best of Jayski 2003: NASCAR is considering 16 gallon fuel cells to replace
the 22 gallon fuel cells in order to make the McDonalds pit crew competition
more interesting.

It only says they are considering these things. Them not ultimatly doing
it does not make these statements false.

Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-23 14:28:39 UTC

It only says they are considering these things. Them not ultimatly doing
it does not make these statements false.

Yes it does. Unless they came from France or Helton they were total
bullshit.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-23 14:40:43 UTC

Post by cfswestern
Yes it does. Unless they came from France or Helton they were total
bullshit.

France or Helton are likely in on the final decision and any announcements
but aren't going to concern themselves with every aspect being considered.

Tom

what's his name

2003-07-23 15:40:24 UTC

Post by Tom Hiett
Arn't Roger Penske, Miller, Pennzoil, Mobil, Target already in, or have
been, in NASCAR?

yes, but they will have to move there for good w/o any open-wheel
involvement.

And your proof of this is what?

After all, every race in Nascar gets more viewers than Indy.

Well 16 of them anyway.

That was last year. This year, even the road course at Sonoma got
better ratings than Indy. This year, Indy may not make it into the top
30 in the US.

And where are the CART races in your ratings list?

Penske was quoted as saying that the IRL needs to take over CART's
Canadian races. The IRL already wants Mid-Ohio and they have made
inquiries into Long Beach and Road America.

And if they get them what does that tell you about CART? Doesn't CART
already have those races? If CART is such a viable and respected
series how could they possibly lose those venues to such a terrible
series as the IRL?

Smokey

2003-07-19 12:25:05 UTC

They want Indy, not the IRL. Furthemore, they are in the IRL until
they can gain access to Nascar;

Arn't Roger Penske, Miller, Pennzoil, Mobil, Target already in, or have
been, in NASCAR?

After all, every race in Nascar gets more viewers than Indy.

Well 16 of them anyway.

Now, why is it that penske et. al. want the IRL to add road courses to
its schedule and to get CART's Nafta races ?

Hi Tom!
Why not just announce a parade, then all the Cart Nafta fans will show up
for the festival and not even care that there was a race scheduled? It seems
so logical that the IRL could pull it off. Oh wait......you were talking
about ticket bundling.
I see........like with Kentucky/Nashville/Pikes Peak where there are no
Winston/Nextel Cup races to lay your claim on?

Smokey on the beach in Daytona this morning.

Robert

2003-07-18 21:19:17 UTC

They want Indy, not the IRL. Furthemore, they are in the IRL until
they can gain access to Nascar;

Arn't Roger Penske, Miller, Pennzoil, Mobil, Target already in, or have
been, in NASCAR?

And the Chipster! Don' forget him! (I know, you said "Target").

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Johnny Canuck

2003-07-19 00:16:44 UTC

A private company run out of the IMS using Grandma's money.

At least IMS makes money.

Are you sure the IMS is making money these days? The Brickyard 400 makes
money. The 500 makes money (but much less than the 400). The USGP loses
money (a lot of it). Any profit made by IMS out of the 400 and the 500 is
more than eaten up by the costs of subsidizing the USGP and the IRL (which,
other than the IMS race is a red ink bloodbath).

what's his name

2003-07-23 15:37:50 UTC

Post by what's his name
At least IMS makes money.

Really, how would you know ?

Add it up. It is not that hard to do. Many publications over the years
have done the same thing. Car & Driver, Racer, Autoweek, to name but a
few.

Post by what's his name
When people like ABC actually pay to televise its events and teams
like Roger Penske decide its the place to be. When sponsors like
Marlboro, Miller, Pennzoil, Mobil, Pioneer, Hollywood, Klein Tool,
Archipelago, Target, etc. and suppliers like Toyota and Honda decide
that their marketing dollars are better spent there than in their
previous series.

They want Indy, not the IRL. Furthemore, they are in the IRL until
they can gain access to Nascar; then, they will not even want Indy.
After all, every race in Nascar gets more viewers than Indy.
Now, why is it that penske et. al. want the IRL to add road courses to
its schedule and to get CART's Nafta races ? In 2 years, the IRL could
very well be like CART is today w/o Australia; is Australia the only
thing that prevents you from enjoying CART ?
The IRL goes through sponsors the way they go through drivers; once a
sponsor finds the truth about the Wankers, they do not renew their
contracts.

But you avoid the obvious, Juan. Why aren't all these people in
question above still in CART?

Who is CART going to get to replace them?

Who is going to buy CART and save it?

Why did all those people leave CART if it was so great, grand, and
glorious?

If the IRL becomes "CART" then why did it happen? Why couldn't CART
hold on to what it had and had 25 years to build?

What happened, Juan?

cfswestern

2003-07-21 20:46:33 UTC

Post by Juan
A private company run out of the IMS using Grandma's money.
Question for you : How can a company, that has lost over 60 % of its
customers, be considered a "thriving" company that will set the
standard for all others (Especially so when even its sponsors say
that they only care about one its products and wish that they could
eliminate the other 15 products) ?

Who said it was "thriving?" I didn't.
However, I can add, and if you simply do some simple calculations
using ticket sales and attendance for the Indy 500, the Brickyard 400,
and the USGP, not to mention the concessions, merchandise, etc. sales
to go with those, along with the year round income from the museum and
the golf course you will figure out that IMS makes a huge friggin'
pile of money each year - way more than necessary to not only float
the IRL if necessary, but also to keep filling the George's pockets
for decades to come.
Now the operative phrase here is "makes money." I didn't even mention
the income from the TV contracts involving each event, which is also
income.
IMS "makes money." A ton. CART loses money. It loses a ton.
It really is as simple as that.
BTW, please show me a link, source, publication, etc. where any
sponsor has ever said they wished they could eliminate the other 15
IRL races.

Brilliant.

cfswestern

2003-07-21 22:58:01 UTC

Yet CHUMP after CHUMP will squeal like a stuck pig about Tony
squandering the family fortune.

Obviously they do not have any clue what they are talking about. In round
numbers the facility must gross around 100 million per year. They only have
to share revenue with two of the three races. And the facility has no debt
load. Now mind you I am only talking about individual paid attendance and
greens fees. Advertising, retail space for vendors, executive suites, etc
are all additional income. And then there is that little matter of American
and international TV.

While the TV numbers may be going down, so are they going down for every
other single thing in sports. There are just more sports to choose from on
more channels. Even the hallowed Monday Night Football rating have been
going down for about a decade and they have no other sports playing opposite
Monday night football.

Even if Indy500 ratings are going down, they have someplace to go down from.
And also ABC Sports needs some events on their schedule to promote ABC and
ABC Sports. So ABC is not going to drop the IRL so they can tell the ABC
viewers that they have no sports beyond Monday Night Football.

Juan

2003-07-22 02:04:55 UTC

However, I can add, and if you simply do some simple calculations
using ticket sales and attendance for the Indy 500, the Brickyard 400,
and the USGP, not to mention the concessions, merchandise, etc. sales
to go with those, along with the year round income from the museum and
the golf course you will figure out that IMS makes a huge friggin'
pile of money each year - way more than necessary to not only float
the IRL if necessary, but also to keep filling the George's pockets
for decades to come.

Really ? Go ahead and carry them out - they are simple, right ?
So ... go ahead.

IMS "makes money." A ton. CART loses money. It loses a ton.

How do you know ?

BTW, please show me a link, source, publication, etc. where any
sponsor has ever said they wished they could eliminate the other 15
IRL races.

Go to Car&Driver and you will see a quote by the ABC personnel.

Juan

Will Cole

2003-07-22 02:19:13 UTC

Regarding the race track alone, I've never understood why our CHUMPS
have such trouble with these calculations. Even tho Indy doesn't
release official figures, it's not difficult to come within about ten
percent. Everybody knows the price of tickets.

Go ahead, Show the numbers.
You can't even count stands, much less understand tv ratings. How
could you possibly understand Accounting ?

Dunno how Tony does the books but my guess is the IRL comes close to
breaking even. Even if it runs a bit in the red it's is simply the cost
of doing business, like primers in a pump.

Hmm ? First, you tell us that the IRL is making TONS of money.
Now, you tell us that they barely break EVEN and might even LOSE some
money.
Which is it ? How can you possibly understand the IRL numbers when you
1. Make money
2. Break even or
3. Lose money.

but also to keep filling the George's pockets
for decades to come.

So, in the previous paragraph, you had him LOSING money; now, you have
him making millions for years to come.

The goose that lays the golden egg year after year after year after year
after...

That they do ... they lay eggs.
You can barely keep ahead of a series on its deathbed. What is the
point of making all that money if you can barely beat CART and lose to
Bowling, Billiards, Arena Football and the WBNA ?
Juan

You forgot every ABC infomercial featuring a muscular couple selling an
exercise machine that fits under your bed, or in some cases a locally
broadcast Marathon. Both of which has kept the IRL off the air at times
in certain markets.

tjmc

2003-07-22 03:13:13 UTC

Go ahead, Show the numbers.

Go Googling. I've crunched them several times on this wire.

Hmm ? First, you tell us that the IRL is making TONS of money.
Now, you tell us that they barely break EVEN and might even LOSE some
money.
Which is it ?

You know, Johnny, if you're gonna quote me, please have the decency to
do what I did and Turbo Al does now during CQOTW. Publish the
attribution.

And FTR, the only reason I'm responding is you're showing hope. This
might be your first response sans a childish homosexual slur. That
means you're already doing better than half of your fellow CHUMPS.

At TOCH we're trained to watch for improvement.

Johnny Canuck

2003-07-15 00:34:23 UTC

Any company that has annual attendance that breaks 2,000,000 has a much
better chance of financial survival than one that has one event with
300,000 and a total of 300,000 for the remaining dozen.

what's his name

2003-07-18 00:01:34 UTC

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 00:34:23 GMT, Johnny Canuck

Any company that has annual attendance that breaks 2,000,000 has a much
better chance of financial survival than one that has one event with
300,000 and a total of 300,000 for the remaining dozen.

<snort - chuckle - giggle - cough>

That is, of course, if you believe their attendance figures. Remember
at one time CART calimed it had more than one billion viewers
worldwide, and we all know that turned out to be a farce.

You need to remember that attendance does very little to put any
$$$$$$ in CART's pocket, and right now CART needs $$$$$ more than
anything.

If they could get enough people at the races they promote then
attendance might help them, as they would be making some $$$$$$ on the
attendance. Since so far they have booked huge losses on every event
they have promoted you can see that attendance has not helped them a
bit there.

If the race is promoted by the track (like in the old days when most,
if not all, of the tracks paid CART a sanctioning fee) then the track
makes the $$$$$$ on the attendance. In fact, that was the old model.
Track pays CART a few million to run a race there, and the track hoped
to recoup its investment by selling enough tickets, concessions,
merchandise, sponsorship, etc. to cover the sanctioning and make a
profit. Tehn tracks started losing money on CART events and started
rebelling against the sanctioning fees leading to CART now having to
promote its own races.

So, if you think attendance is going to save CART, better look again.

You wouldn't happen to be c.o. jones/rikky anthrax under another name,
would you? You sound an awful lot like him.

Johnny Canuck

2003-07-19 00:14:12 UTC

Post by what's his name
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 00:34:23 GMT, Johnny Canuck

Post by Johnny Canuck
Any company that has annual attendance that breaks 2,000,000 has a much
better chance of financial survival than one that has one event with
300,000 and a total of 300,000 for the remaining dozen.

<snort - chuckle - giggle - cough>
That is, of course, if you believe their attendance figures. Remember
at one time CART calimed it had more than one billion viewers
worldwide, and we all know that turned out to be a farce.
You need to remember that attendance does very little to put any
$$$$$$ in CART's pocket, and right now CART needs $$$$$ more than
anything.
If they could get enough people at the races they promote then
attendance might help them, as they would be making some $$$$$$ on the
attendance. Since so far they have booked huge losses on every event
they have promoted you can see that attendance has not helped them a
bit there.
If the race is promoted by the track (like in the old days when most,
if not all, of the tracks paid CART a sanctioning fee) then the track
makes the $$$$$$ on the attendance. In fact, that was the old model.
Track pays CART a few million to run a race there, and the track hoped
to recoup its investment by selling enough tickets, concessions,
merchandise, sponsorship, etc. to cover the sanctioning and make a
profit. Tehn tracks started losing money on CART events and started
rebelling against the sanctioning fees leading to CART now having to
promote its own races.
So, if you think attendance is going to save CART, better look again.
You wouldn't happen to be c.o. jones/rikky anthrax under another name,
would you? You sound an awful lot like him.

Don't be a twit. My point was that there are 2,000,000 people a year who
attend at CART races. That makes it entirely possible to build a business
model that works. And ... those are pretty realistic numbers (Canadian
Races: 450,000, Mexican Races: 450,000; European Races: 100,000;
Australia: 250,000 ... are you telling me that the 10 American races
don't draw about 750,000 people? ... pretty well easy money they do).

Not making a comment about the current business model ... just about the
fact that when you have that fan base, you can build a successful model.

cfswestern

2003-07-19 03:47:47 UTC

Post by what's his name
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 00:34:23 GMT, Johnny Canuck

<snort - chuckle - giggle - cough>
That is, of course, if you believe their attendance figures. Remember
at one time CART calimed it had more than one billion viewers
worldwide, and we all know that turned out to be a farce.
You need to remember that attendance does very little to put any
$$$$$$ in CART's pocket, and right now CART needs $$$$$ more than
anything.
If they could get enough people at the races they promote then
attendance might help them, as they would be making some $$$$$$ on the
attendance. Since so far they have booked huge losses on every event
they have promoted you can see that attendance has not helped them a
bit there.
If the race is promoted by the track (like in the old days when most,
if not all, of the tracks paid CART a sanctioning fee) then the track
makes the $$$$$$ on the attendance. In fact, that was the old model.
Track pays CART a few million to run a race there, and the track hoped
to recoup its investment by selling enough tickets, concessions,
merchandise, sponsorship, etc. to cover the sanctioning and make a
profit. Tehn tracks started losing money on CART events and started
rebelling against the sanctioning fees leading to CART now having to
promote its own races.
So, if you think attendance is going to save CART, better look again.
You wouldn't happen to be c.o. jones/rikky anthrax under another name,
would you? You sound an awful lot like him.

Don't be a twit. My point was that there are 2,000,000 people a year who
attend at CART races. That makes it entirely possible to build a business
model that works. And ... those are pretty realistic numbers (Canadian
Races: 450,000, Mexican Races: 450,000; European Races: 100,000;
Australia: 250,000 ... are you telling me that the 10 American races
don't draw about 750,000 people? ... pretty well easy money they do).
Not making a comment about the current business model ... just about the
fact that when you have that fan base, you can build a successful model.

Your numbers are wildly high and the potential sponsors and TV advertisers
want solid fans they can count by their own reckoning. CART has none. That
is why FedEx told them to piss off.

cfswestern

2003-07-19 04:14:19 UTC

Post by what's his name
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 00:34:23 GMT, Johnny Canuck

Post by Johnny Canuck
Any company that has annual attendance that breaks 2,000,000 has a
much better chance of financial survival than one that has one
event with 300,000 and a total of 300,000 for the remaining dozen.

<snort - chuckle - giggle - cough>
That is, of course, if you believe their attendance figures.
Remember at one time CART calimed it had more than one billion
viewers worldwide, and we all know that turned out to be a farce.
You need to remember that attendance does very little to put any
$$$$$$ in CART's pocket, and right now CART needs $$$$$ more than
anything.
If they could get enough people at the races they promote then
attendance might help them, as they would be making some $$$$$$ on
the attendance. Since so far they have booked huge losses on every
event they have promoted you can see that attendance has not helped
them a bit there.
If the race is promoted by the track (like in the old days when
most, if not all, of the tracks paid CART a sanctioning fee) then
the track makes the $$$$$$ on the attendance. In fact, that was the
old model. Track pays CART a few million to run a race there, and
the track hoped to recoup its investment by selling enough tickets,
concessions, merchandise, sponsorship, etc. to cover the
sanctioning and make a profit. Tehn tracks started losing money on
CART events and started rebelling against the sanctioning fees
leading to CART now having to promote its own races.
So, if you think attendance is going to save CART, better look again.
You wouldn't happen to be c.o. jones/rikky anthrax under another
name, would you? You sound an awful lot like him.

Don't be a twit. My point was that there are 2,000,000 people a year
who attend at CART races. That makes it entirely possible to build a
business model that works. And ... those are pretty realistic numbers
100,000; Australia: 250,000 ... are you telling me that the 10
American races don't draw about 750,000 people? ... pretty well easy
money they do).
Not making a comment about the current business model ... just about
the fact that when you have that fan base, you can build a successful
model.

Your numbers are wildly high and the potential sponsors and TV
advertisers want solid fans they can count by their own reckoning.
CART has none. That is why FedEx told them to piss off.

Should have known better than to feed the trolls ... while some races may
not be accurately reported ... some races are promoted by publicly traded
companies that have very strong reputations for accuracy (Molstar being
one ... ). My numbers are widely reported and generally consistent with
tose reports. CART has a clear problem with TV presence which affects
sponsorship income. None of which has SFA to do with my point. The number
of fans who attend CART live events are more than enough to build a
successful business model around. I never said CART has done a good job
of that or that they will. I just stated a fact.
As far as my earlier post about IMS and the red ink. Since it is a
privately held company it does not post an annual report. However, not
one credible source has ever suggested that the USGP has been anything
but a huge loser for IMS. The Brickyard 400 is their best attended race
and the least expensive for them to promote. Common sense tells you that
the 500 makes money with its 300,000 odd fans and TV contract, but the
rest of the IRL is black hole (empty seats, lousy ratings).

You have no idea what you are talking about. You are just making up vague
generalities to suit your agenda. First you say you have fan numbers. Then
you admit your fan numbers are bogus. You must be a true CART fan.

Johnny Canuck

2003-07-19 05:48:36 UTC

Post by cfswestern
You have no idea what you are talking about. You are just making up
vague generalities to suit your agenda. First you say you have fan
numbers. Then you admit your fan numbers are bogus. You must be a
true CART fan.

No ... I never admitted my numbers were bogus and this has nothing to do
with being a CART fan. The numbers are WIDELY reported. You need to be able
to read to get them though. Cart had 2,000,000 spectators in the seats in
2002. I never said that all were paid attendance, and I also never said
CART was doing anything right. All I said was if you can get 2,000,000
people to show up you can build a successful business model. Only a moron
could disagree with that.

Will Cole

2003-07-19 06:05:36 UTC

Nobody wants to attend Vancouver. It rains all the time.

Jason Hoehn

2003-07-19 06:24:07 UTC

Post by Will Cole
Nobody wants to attend Vancouver. It rains all the time.

Hee hee,..... Good one....

Tom Hiett

2003-07-21 13:13:33 UTC

CART did not have 2,000,000 spectators even if you use Enron accounting.
That is an absurd number and the handful of people who even care know it.
But yes, if 2,000,000 people did attend a traveling circus that made just 20
stops you would think that the circus should be able to show a profit. But
CART does not have 2,000,000 attendees and they are as adverse to profits as
they are to having the cars pass each other during the so-called races.

Maybe they are selling three times as many tickets as show up, like the
IRL at Fontana.

Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-21 13:42:05 UTC

But

CART does not have 2,000,000 attendees and they are as adverse to profits as
they are to having the cars pass each other during the so-called races.

Maybe they are selling three times as many tickets as show up, like the
IRL at Fontana.

That Fontana aberration was a post 9/11 deal.

Smokey

2003-07-22 13:41:19 UTC

Still living a season opener a year + ago Tom?
Looked like Nashville was packed. Didnt see it eh?
Still looking at the stands as a measure of the racing ?
Attendance number are going up at all Indycar venues Tom.
Although the high school footbal sized stands I saw at Cleveland are sure
getting smaller though, did you see that one Tom?
Of course you didnt. You were watching your old tape of the first visit to
the IRL at Fontana, and it was empty and you danced a jig. Hope it brought
back fond memories for you.

Take care
Smokey

But

CART does not have 2,000,000 attendees and they are as adverse to profits as
they are to having the cars pass each other during the so-called races.

Maybe they are selling three times as many tickets as show up, like the
IRL at Fontana.
Tom

Tom Hiett

2003-07-22 13:40:40 UTC

Post by Smokey
Still living a season opener a year + ago Tom?
Looked like Nashville was packed. Didnt see it eh?
Still looking at the stands as a measure of the racing ?
Attendance number are going up at all Indycar venues Tom.
Although the high school footbal sized stands I saw at Cleveland are sure
getting smaller though, did you see that one Tom?
Of course you didnt. You were watching your old tape of the first visit to
the IRL at Fontana, and it was empty and you danced a jig. Hope it brought
back fond memories for you.

Nashville race has been well attended. More people at the Kansas truck
race than the IRL feature event, and that one was sold out due to season
tickets. CART still draws a large crowd at many events. Not bad for a dead
series.

People in the grandstands have nothing to do with the racing. Its more a
reflection of public interest, or tickets being bundled with season
tickets at sold out NASCAR tracks.

Never taped a IRL race except Indy, as I don't catch everything from my
grandstand seat.

Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-22 15:02:04 UTC

Nashville race has been well attended. More people at the Kansas truck
race than the IRL feature event, and that one was sold out due to season
tickets. CART still draws a large crowd at many events. Not bad for a dead
series.
People in the grandstands have nothing to do with the racing. Its more a
reflection of public interest, or tickets being bundled with season
tickets at sold out NASCAR tracks.
Never taped a IRL race except Indy, as I don't catch everything from my
grandstand seat.

It is true that CART does draw a large crowd for many events. But it is the
locals who make the money, not CART. Since CART teams are ungodly
expensive, that is a recipe for doom. As the stockholders have discovered.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-22 15:12:25 UTC

Post by cfswestern
It is true that CART does draw a large crowd for many events. But it is the
locals who make the money, not CART. Since CART teams are ungodly
expensive, that is a recipe for doom. As the stockholders have discovered.

How does the teams being expensive affect the stockholders?

Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-22 15:25:49 UTC

How does the teams being expensive affect the stockholders?
Tom

Because the stockholders investment has been doled out to the teams to keep
them on the grid.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-22 16:44:29 UTC

Post by Tom Hiett
How does the teams being expensive affect the stockholders?

Because the stockholders investment has been doled out to the teams to keep
them on the grid.

Your "recipe for doom" took 24 years to bake.

Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-22 18:48:24 UTC

Post by Tom Hiett
How does the teams being expensive affect the stockholders?

Because the stockholders investment has been doled out to the teams to keep
them on the grid.

Your "recipe for doom" took 24 years to bake.

And the Indy 500 is still going strong after a century.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-22 19:29:40 UTC

Post by cfswestern
And the Indy 500 is still going strong after a century.

Strong, but weaker than anytime since I started following it, and the
trend is downward. Its the second biggest race at the track. They've lost
over 40% of their TV audience, almost nobody shows up for practice and
qualifying, bump day became fill day this year, they were still
advertising tickets the day of the race where they used to sell out seats
the week after the previous year's race, 16 NASCAR races outdrew it on TV
last year and even more likely to this year.

Tom

Tom Hiett

2003-07-22 20:40:36 UTC

NASCAR is a fill in for American football. When football season starts
NASCAR races in front of empty seats and loses a significant percentage of
the TV viewers.

Even with the football drop off, it still smokes everything else in US
motorsport by a large margin. It could cool off quite a bit and still be
an unstoppable top dog. They have a solid multigenerational fan base and
still have growing room. I think a future popular asian or hispanic driver
could attract some ignored market segments and either make up lost ground
or propel them even higher.

Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-22 20:55:16 UTC

NASCAR is a fill in for American football. When football season starts
NASCAR races in front of empty seats and loses a significant percentage of
the TV viewers.

They said all the same things about the NBA during the Jordan,Bird,Magic
Johnson,Barkley era. Not that I am putting down NASCAR but the explosive
growth simply will not last. The public will do the usual "been there,seen
that" deal at some point in time.

Smokey

2003-07-23 13:57:32 UTC

Post by cfswestern
And the Indy 500 is still going strong after a century.

Stronger than anyting else in its class Tom, Cart or F-1 has NOTHING that
comes close to Indy.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-23 13:53:49 UTC

Post by Smokey

Post by Tom Hiett
Strong, but weaker than anytime since I started following it, and the
trend is downward. Its the second biggest race at the track. They've lost
over 40% of their TV audience, almost nobody shows up for practice and
qualifying, bump day became fill day this year, they were still
advertising tickets the day of the race where they used to sell out seats
the week after the previous year's race, 16 NASCAR races outdrew it on TV
last year and even more likely to this year.

Stronger than anyting else in its class Tom, Cart or F-1 has NOTHING that
comes close to Indy.

OTOH, its all the IRL has.

Tom

tjmc

2003-07-23 14:04:19 UTC

Post by Smokey
Stronger than anyting else in its class Tom, Cart or F-1 has NOTHING that
comes close to Indy.

OTOH, its all the IRL has.

Not all. But it's still enough.

cfswestern

2003-07-23 14:17:57 UTC

Post by Smokey

Stronger than anyting else in its class Tom, Cart or F-1 has NOTHING that
comes close to Indy.

OTOH, its all the IRL has.

The IRL also has ABC. And they are somewhat close to ISC/NASCAR.

Tom Hiett

2003-07-23 14:34:26 UTC

Post by cfswestern
The IRL also has ABC. And they are somewhat close to ISC/NASCAR.

There are no NASCAR races on ABC (the last placed network), but I guess
NBC and ABC do share the same two last letters...

Tom

cfswestern

2003-07-23 15:44:42 UTC

Post by cfswestern
The IRL also has ABC. And they are somewhat close to ISC/NASCAR.

There are no NASCAR races on ABC (the last placed network), but I guess
NBC and ABC do share the same two last letters...

And where did I suggest that there were any NASCAR races on ABC? ABC
provides the live flag to flag coverage and ISC provides some of the tracks.
Unlike some series that have to go begging or buying both.

tjmc

2003-07-22 14:09:55 UTC

Post by Smokey
Looked like Nashville was packed. Didnt see it eh?

Sold out.

Post by Smokey
Still looking at the stands as a measure of the racing ?

That's what CHUMPS do.

Post by Smokey
Attendance number are going up at all Indycar venues Tom.

I will say Tony George needs to pull his head out of his ass regarding
scheduling. He starts out the year at three of the most boring race
tracks in the league. There was absolutely no buzz going into Indy
which left that race (almost summer) responsible for kick-starting the
entire season. He was lucky to get his 425K...shoulda been 450.

Only now, after they've been thru Texas, Richmond and Nashville, is the
excitement palpable. With the promise of the Chevworths and some great
upcoming venues he looks to have another great season. But there's no
reason, with racing as good as this, that it should have taken so long.

----
Note email address change:
New: ***@rcn.com
Please change your address books or adjust your filters accordingly.
Mail to the old address should be forwarded for a limited amount of
time.

Mark McCauley

2003-07-22 15:27:03 UTC

Post by tjmc
I will say Tony George needs to pull his head out of his ass regarding
scheduling. He starts out the year at three of the most boring race

Four, not three.

Post by tjmc
tracks in the league. There was absolutely no buzz going into Indy

Yes there was - about the lack of entrants and whether or not there would be
33 starters.

Post by tjmc
which left that race (almost summer) responsible for kick-starting the
entire season. He was lucky to get his 425K...shoulda been 450.

Indy kick-starting the season?! LOL!

Post by tjmc
Only now, after they've been thru Texas, Richmond and Nashville, is the
excitement palpable. With the promise of the Chevworths and some great

Agreed - to some extent. In the finally analysis, even those races failed to
deliver on what started as exciting races.

Post by tjmc
upcoming venues he looks to have another great season. But there's no
reason, with racing as good as this, that it should have taken so long.

Yes, there is. That's the nature of an all oval Indy car series.

cfswestern

2003-07-22 15:32:54 UTC

Post by tjmc

Post by Smokey
Looked like Nashville was packed. Didnt see it eh?

Sold out.

Post by Smokey
Still looking at the stands as a measure of the racing ?

That's what CHUMPS do.

Post by Smokey
Attendance number are going up at all Indycar venues Tom.

I will say Tony George needs to pull his head out of his ass regarding
scheduling. He starts out the year at three of the most boring race
tracks in the league. There was absolutely no buzz going into Indy
which left that race (almost summer) responsible for kick-starting the
entire season. He was lucky to get his 425K...shoulda been 450.
Only now, after they've been thru Texas, Richmond and Nashville, is the
excitement palpable. With the promise of the Chevworths and some great
upcoming venues he looks to have another great season. But there's no
reason, with racing as good as this, that it should have taken so long.

The scheduling is just fine. There are only so many places far enough south
to race in February and March and April. May through October they should be
able to race most anywhere.

David Eckard

2003-07-22 20:29:17 UTC

Post by cfswestern
The scheduling is just fine. There are only so many places far enough south
to race in February and March and April. May through October they should be
able to race most anywhere.

They move the PA race, nazareth, due to weather.. .too cold last year.
I think they said you could see your breath, way too cool for safe
racing. Now its Aug 24, and will probably be about 85-90 degrees

--
David Eckard
-----------------------------------------------------------
Rot13 this address ***@rneguyvax.arg
Webmaster http://www.billswoodshed.com <- currently unavail
Webmaster http://home.earthlink.net/~swordedge
-----------------------------------------------------------

Smokey

2003-07-23 13:30:25 UTC

Post by tjmc

Post by Smokey
Looked like Nashville was packed. Didnt see it eh?

Sold out.

Post by Smokey
Still looking at the stands as a measure of the racing ?

That's what CHUMPS do.

Post by Smokey
Attendance number are going up at all Indycar venues Tom.

I will say Tony George needs to pull his head out of his ass regarding
scheduling. He starts out the year at three of the most boring race
tracks in the league. There was absolutely no buzz going into Indy
which left that race (almost summer) responsible for kick-starting the
entire season. He was lucky to get his 425K...shoulda been 450.
Only now, after they've been thru Texas, Richmond and Nashville, is the
excitement palpable. With the promise of the Chevworths and some great
upcoming venues he looks to have another great season. But there's no
reason, with racing as good as this, that it should have taken so long.

The scheduling is just fine. There are only so many places far enough south
to race in February and March and April. May through October they should be
able to race most anywhere.

And dont look now, but the IRL wants to address the Walt Disney Speedway
which was built on Disney property by IMS. The IRL Awards Banquet will be at
Disney this fall and talks about returning to "The Mickyard" are a reality.
The single issue is still a good date for both sides.

Smokeski

Johnny Canuck

2003-07-20 02:09:59 UTC

10 races = 750,000 Cart fans at Amerian races? 75,000 per race? Cart?
in the US? More like 25,000 to 30,000 avg. maybe, but you must be
dreaming for that 75,000 number.
Smokey on the beach

Three day attendance numbers (again ... for those who have trouble
reading, I did not say paid attendance, and I did not say 2,000,000
individuals because some will attend all three days, some two, and some
only race day): CART officially says 2.6 million. I do have some problem
accepting those numbers because CART and some of its promoters have been
caught with some funny numbers (Cleveland's a good example).

However,

No question about the three Canadian races at around 160,000 each. No
question that Surfer's Paradise draws 250,000 to 300,000. No question
that the two Mexican races come in at about 350,000 total. The two
European races this year total 100,000. That's an average of 150,000 over
eight races or 1.2 million. Three day attendance at troubled venues like
Milwaukee, Laguna, Cleveland are around 60,000 per (about 30-35,000 race
day). Venues like Long Beach draw more than enough to create a series
average of about 75,000 per for the US races.

None of this is myopia regarding CART. If they can't make money with that
attendance, then they are running their business poorly. That's all I
said, it's the truth, and I should have known better than to post in this
NG given that everyone here either thinks CART's the bomb, or they're IRL
shills. The reality is that neither series has been run well in the past
five years, they both bleed red ink, and of the two ... the better chance
of turning that around lies with CART and the substantially better
attendance than the IRL.

cfswestern

2003-07-20 02:38:57 UTC

10 races = 750,000 Cart fans at Amerian races? 75,000 per race? Cart?
in the US? More like 25,000 to 30,000 avg. maybe, but you must be
dreaming for that 75,000 number.
Smokey on the beach

Three day attendance numbers (again ... for those who have trouble
reading, I did not say paid attendance, and I did not say 2,000,000
individuals because some will attend all three days, some two, and some
only race day): CART officially says 2.6 million. I do have some problem
accepting those numbers because CART and some of its promoters have been
caught with some funny numbers (Cleveland's a good example).
However,
No question about the three Canadian races at around 160,000 each. No
question that Surfer's Paradise draws 250,000 to 300,000. No question
that the two Mexican races come in at about 350,000 total. The two
European races this year total 100,000. That's an average of 150,000 over
eight races or 1.2 million. Three day attendance at troubled venues like
Milwaukee, Laguna, Cleveland are around 60,000 per (about 30-35,000 race
day). Venues like Long Beach draw more than enough to create a series
average of about 75,000 per for the US races.
None of this is myopia regarding CART. If they can't make money with that
attendance, then they are running their business poorly. That's all I
said, it's the truth, and I should have known better than to post in this
NG given that everyone here either thinks CART's the bomb, or they're IRL
shills. The reality is that neither series has been run well in the past
five years, they both bleed red ink, and of the two ... the better chance
of turning that around lies with CART and the substantially better
attendance than the IRL.

Your numbers are still wildly high, but that is okay. There are not 350,000
people in Mexico purchasing race tickets at Canadian/American prices.
Perhaps you would care to look at it in an adult manner. What the the
revenue from ticket sales? How much of it went to construct and deconstruct
the track and the grandstands and how much made its way to CART? Of the
funds that do go to CART, how much is spent on travel and freight? To
compare all of that to IRL simply getting a date at an existing track a few
hundred truck miles from Indianapolis is like comparing apples and gumball
machines.

Sure CART "invites" many thousands of fans to the street carnivals to make
it look like a major league event to the TV viewer and enhance their image.
350,000 in Mexico? 480,000 in Canada? Sure, if it makes you feel better.
Supposedly CART wrote a 14,000 dollar check to Miami for the 14,000 tickets
sold. At 14,000 per event they would have to have a lot of races to come up
to 2,600,000.

They IRL fans have no worries whatsoever about the IRL running in 2004. The
CART fans are looking for Ecclestone or Forsythe or some financiers to buy
the mess so they can be sure it does operate in 2004.

I figure the only thing that CART has not yet purchased or leased is a
satellite in orbit. Perhaps they can rent some time on satellites and beam
the races everywhere and claim 6,000,000,000 fans the way that Speed Channel
does it.

Fans and ticket sales, TV viewers, sponsors, and the cost of getting a venue
and getting to that venue form a complex equation. Since nobody, and I mean
nobody, has the books on 2 series and 40 teams you cannot tell. Even if
somebody was a senior IRS executive they could not even tell.

The fact that MPH stock price seems to find a new low each week tells you
all you really need to know about the outlook for CART. On the other hand
there are many hundreds of corporations that could drop about 10 big ones on
CART to be the title sponsor. That would be most excellent. And far more
likely than any individual or group buying them.

Johnny Canuck

2003-07-20 05:43:13 UTC

Post by cfswestern
Your numbers are still wildly high, but that is okay. There are not
350,000 people in Mexico purchasing race tickets at Canadian/American
prices. Perhaps you would care to look at it in an adult manner. What
the the revenue from ticket sales? How much of it went to construct
and deconstruct the track and the grandstands and how much made its
way to CART? Of the funds that do go to CART, how much is spent on
travel and freight? To compare all of that to IRL simply getting a
date at an existing track a few hundred truck miles from Indianapolis
is like comparing apples and gumball machines.
Sure CART "invites" many thousands of fans to the street carnivals to
make it look like a major league event to the TV viewer and enhance
their image. 350,000 in Mexico? 480,000 in Canada? Sure, if it makes
you feel better. Supposedly CART wrote a 14,000 dollar check to Miami
for the 14,000 tickets sold. At 14,000 per event they would have to
have a lot of races to come up to 2,600,000.
They IRL fans have no worries whatsoever about the IRL running in
2004. The CART fans are looking for Ecclestone or Forsythe or some
financiers to buy the mess so they can be sure it does operate in
2004.
I figure the only thing that CART has not yet purchased or leased is a
satellite in orbit. Perhaps they can rent some time on satellites and
beam the races everywhere and claim 6,000,000,000 fans the way that
Speed Channel does it.
Fans and ticket sales, TV viewers, sponsors, and the cost of getting a
venue and getting to that venue form a complex equation. Since nobody,
and I mean nobody, has the books on 2 series and 40 teams you cannot
tell. Even if somebody was a senior IRS executive they could not even
tell.
The fact that MPH stock price seems to find a new low each week tells
you all you really need to know about the outlook for CART. On the
other hand there are many hundreds of corporations that could drop
about 10 big ones on CART to be the title sponsor. That would be most
excellent. And far more likely than any individual or group buying
them.

I'm not saying any of that. All I said was ... more than 2,000,000 people
a year attend CART events. With that number, CART SHOULD be able to build
a business model that works. I am not disputing a large part of what you
say ... I am not even debating it. Why do you insist on an argument I am
not having. I said nothing about revenues or TV audiences. I said nothing
about 2004. Yes, the IRL will continue to run because TG's got tons of
money and the net loss after the Brickyard 400's and the Indy 500's is
probably not so large that it risks his personal fortune. CART's loss is
public record and I am under no illusion that they are making money. Next
time you want to argue with ... argue with what I said ... not what you
think you hear.

cfswestern

2003-07-20 11:12:36 UTC

Post by Johnny Canuck
I'm not saying any of that. All I said was ... more than 2,000,000 people
a year attend CART events. With that number, CART SHOULD be able to build
a business model that works. I am not disputing a large part of what you
say ... I am not even debating it. Why do you insist on an argument I am
not having. I said nothing about revenues or TV audiences. I said nothing
about 2004. Yes, the IRL will continue to run because TG's got tons of
money and the net loss after the Brickyard 400's and the Indy 500's is
probably not so large that it risks his personal fortune. CART's loss is
public record and I am under no illusion that they are making money. Next
time you want to argue with ... argue with what I said ... not what you
think you hear.

I am still not sure what Tony George's fortunes have to do with CART's
business plan.

If CART had two million fans who paid 75 UDS avg for a ticket that would be
150M dollars. If the venue absorbed half that would leave CART 75M. Now you
have to guess what CART has to spend to get that 75M. Say CART spends 50M,
which leaves them 25M. Even if they gave it all to the teams it would fund
only 3 teams. So they are 15 teams short at this point.

Now it gets complicated. You have to flesh out your business plan with
another 120M to fund 15 more cars. The cars have sponsors on the sidepods
and there is TV revenue from all of the sponsors who want to run ads during
the CART races. Now that would be a real bitch to figure out. Is the CART
audience worth 120M? In order for a business plan to make sense it would
have to show a sizeable audience. Perhaps CART does have a sizable audience
that is not being recognized properly. Or perhaps all CART has left is an
audience of Paul Newman fans.

Two million attendance is fine until you run up against the fact that the
grid costs 160 million. And the travel expenses for the world tour are on
CART. Yikes. A huge nut to meet with a small and widely scattered audience.

Jason Hoehn

2003-07-20 17:33:39 UTC

Post by Johnny Canuck
I'm not saying any of that.

Dude, a bit of advice. We've all fallen into the trap. You're arguing with
cfwestern, the guy is a psychopath. . you'r best to ignore the guy, 'cuz
there is no reasoning with him. just put down the baseball bat, and move on.
And if you have a killfile, use it ...

Johnny Canuck

2003-07-20 19:09:04 UTC

Post by Jason Hoehn

Post by Johnny Canuck
I'm not saying any of that.

Dude, a bit of advice. We've all fallen into the trap. You're arguing
with cfwestern, the guy is a psychopath. . you'r best to ignore the
guy, 'cuz there is no reasoning with him. just put down the baseball
bat, and move on. And if you have a killfile, use it ...

I know ... I'm done ... it's futile! lol

Smokey

2003-07-20 14:52:58 UTC

3 day attendance figures! Another Chapter in Carts book of fiction.
I am waiting for someone to admit that Cleveland got 75,000 on their 3 day
totalling so I can laugh.

10 races = 750,000 Cart fans at Amerian races? 75,000 per race? Cart?
in the US? More like 25,000 to 30,000 avg. maybe, but you must be
dreaming for that 75,000 number.
Smokey on the beach

Three day attendance numbers (again ... for those who have trouble
reading, I did not say paid attendance, and I did not say 2,000,000
individuals because some will attend all three days, some two, and some
only race day): CART officially says 2.6 million. I do have some problem
accepting those numbers because CART and some of its promoters have been
caught with some funny numbers (Cleveland's a good example).
However,
No question about the three Canadian races at around 160,000 each. No
question that Surfer's Paradise draws 250,000 to 300,000. No question
that the two Mexican races come in at about 350,000 total. The two
European races this year total 100,000. That's an average of 150,000 over
eight races or 1.2 million. Three day attendance at troubled venues like
Milwaukee, Laguna, Cleveland are around 60,000 per (about 30-35,000 race
day). Venues like Long Beach draw more than enough to create a series
average of about 75,000 per for the US races.
None of this is myopia regarding CART. If they can't make money with that
attendance, then they are running their business poorly. That's all I
said, it's the truth, and I should have known better than to post in this
NG given that everyone here either thinks CART's the bomb, or they're IRL
shills. The reality is that neither series has been run well in the past
five years, they both bleed red ink, and of the two ... the better chance
of turning that around lies with CART and the substantially better
attendance than the IRL.

what's his name

2003-07-22 19:42:14 UTC

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 00:34:23 GMT, Johnny Canuck

Any company that has annual attendance that breaks 2,000,000 has a much
better chance of financial survival than one that has one event with
300,000 and a total of 300,000 for the remaining dozen.

Is this anything like the "more than 1 billion TV viewers" CART once
claimed to have had?

CART claiming attendance of over 2 million is suspect at best.

I doubt you can find one single, credible source that would place the
Indy 500's attendance as low as 300,000, and as an addition to that,
why is it that pro-CART posters regularly try and use three and four
day CART eventr attendance but just as lamely try and limit their
discussions of IRL to the day or noght of the race only?

And finally, you only have to be able to add to figure that the
remaining IRL events draw far more than 300,000. KC, Nashville and
Texas races alone well exceed that cumulatively.

You go and wildly stretch one number just because its your beloved
CART's and wildly deflate the other just because its the IRL's.

But a better question still remains - If CART has such wonderful
attendance and such a devoted fan base, then why can't they make
money, get more teams, retained their marquee teams that defected to
the IRL, find sponsors for the cars, and garner more manufacturer
involvement rather than running them off?

cfswestern

2003-07-22 19:48:04 UTC

Post by what's his name
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 00:34:23 GMT, Johnny Canuck