#California--another Florida election fiasco looms - America-hating right wingers dancing in the streets

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 05:50:27 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
According to the mechanics of the recall system, the electorate is
asked to decide whether to fire Davis, and if so choose a successor.
The new governor would be the candidate with the most votes in a
single ballot, and with a list of more than 150 hopefuls, Davis's
successor could take office with a tiny mandate. As little as 15% of
the vote will probably be enough to win - a far smaller mandate than
Davis's.

We all agree that the election is poorly thought out and designed
(after all, it was a "progressive" reform). The real question is,
what do you do to fix that so it does not happen again?

BD

"Members and front organizations must continually embarrass, discredit and degrade our critics. When obstructionists become too irritating, label them as fascist, or Nazi or anti-Semitic .... The association will, after enough repetition, become "fact" in the public mind."
--Communist Party, Moscow Central Committee 1943

veronica floss

2003-08-17 04:26:50 UTC

Post by Brain Death
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 05:50:27 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

We all agree that the election is poorly thought out and designed
(after all, it was a "progressive" reform). The real question is,
what do you do to fix that so it does not happen again?
BD

I almost agree with this... but first, correction:

The Progressive movement is a Republican Party movement, and it
is over one hundred years old.

The California Recall was written to handle the quick recall of
misbehaving local and county officials. It's been used many times
for that purpose, and it continues to work well when voters use
it to do that. It *never* should have been used to recall a
State Official.

Remember: California voters didn't ask for this Recall fiasco.
They think it is a joke just like the rest of the country does.

This whole fiasco was started by one ambitious Republican office
holder (Darryl Issa, HR Rep. in San Diego) who paid $2 million
dollars to gather signatures so he could run for Governor in
October before he had to file to run for the House of
Representatives in March.

***

Fix the Recall by:

1) limiting the current Recall Statute to County officials and
fixing the currently confusing ballot mechanism.

2) Writing the Statewide Recall legislation to outlaw paid
signature gathering; Give volunteer Recall petitioners maybe six
months or more, to gather enough signatures; raise the number of
signatures needed; allow at least three months for campaigning
between the Recall certification and the first 'elimination'
Election; allow six more weeks for second 'runoff' Election; and
appoint a Board of Recall Overseers to determine what powers the
Governor can exercise in the interim, where the Governor could go
to either the Legislature or the Courts in order to appeal any
order of the Recall Overseers.

****

The Progressive movement was political -- its object was to
cripple Democratic political machines that ruled some Cities in
the Midwest and East by cleaning up the fixed elections and
institutionalized bribery that had replaced fair Elections there.

California Republican Party became involved 100 years ago,
because the rising Republican middle class in California didn't
like the Railroad and Land Barons running everything in
California.

The Recall is part of several other important Progressive
reforms, including the Initiative, the Proposition, the Blanket
Primary Ballot, Civil Service reform, extending the vote to women
and electing the United States Senate, among other reforms. MANY
States (including predominantly Republican States) have copied
California's reforms, and these implementations work very well
for them.

V.

???????

2003-08-18 01:44:28 UTC

Post by veronica floss

Post by Brain Death
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 05:50:27 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

We all agree that the election is poorly thought out and designed
(after all, it was a "progressive" reform). The real question is,
what do you do to fix that so it does not happen again?
BD

I amlost agree, but you have succummbed to misinformation about the genesis
of the recall.

Post by veronica floss
The Progressive movement is a Republican Party movement, and it
is over one hundred years old.

yep

Post by veronica floss
The California Recall was written to handle the quick recall of
misbehaving local and county officials. It's been used many times
for that purpose, and it continues to work well when voters use
it to do that. It *never* should have been used to recall a
State Official.

in fact, if you read about Hiram Walker and the reform movement, you will
find that ALL officials were covered. The preeamble to Article 2 of the
California constitution states that all political power is inhernet in the
people

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?waisdocid=1710496397+0+0+0&waisaction=retrieve

and

http://www.governor.ca.gov/govsite/govsgallery/h/documents/inaugural_23.html

Post by veronica floss
Remember: California voters didn't ask for this Recall fiasco.
They think it is a joke just like the rest of the country does.

au contraire. this was and is a grass roots movement

Post by veronica floss
This whole fiasco was started by one ambitious Republican office
holder (Darryl Issa, HR Rep. in San Diego) who paid $2 million
dollars to gather signatures so he could run for Governor in
October before he had to file to run for the House of
Representatives in March.

wrong. the recall began with Melanie Morgan on KSFO radio. Issa did not come
forward with his financial support until over 150,000 signatures were
already gathered - entirely off the internet, with onesy twosy downloads and
signatures.

you boys need to get it through your heads that the people of California are
angry and this is a grass roots movement of the people. this scares the
political establishments of both parties, who quiver in their boots at the
though that there wil be a popular uprising against both of the established
parties.

It has happened before. The Whig party of the mid 1800's, the republican
party of the mid 1850's to name two who actually made something of
themselves.

Post by veronica floss
***
1) limiting the current Recall Statute to County officials and
fixing the currently confusing ballot mechanism.

power to the people. why are you think that ALL officials should not be held
accountable?

Post by veronica floss
2) Writing the Statewide Recall legislation to outlaw paid
signature gathering; Give volunteer Recall petitioners maybe six
months or more, to gather enough signatures; raise the number of
signatures needed; allow at least three months for campaigning
between the Recall certification and the first 'elimination'
Election; allow six more weeks for second 'runoff' Election; and
appoint a Board of Recall Overseers to determine what powers the
Governor can exercise in the interim, where the Governor could go
to either the Legislature or the Courts in order to appeal any
order of the Recall Overseers.

in other words, place limitations on free speech. again, why are you afraid?

Post by veronica floss
****
The Progressive movement was political -- its object was to
cripple Democratic political machines that ruled some Cities in
the Midwest and East by cleaning up the fixed elections and
institutionalized bribery that had replaced fair Elections there.

yep

Post by veronica floss
California Republican Party became involved 100 years ago,
because the rising Republican middle class in California didn't
like the Railroad and Land Barons running everything in
California.

yep

Post by veronica floss
The Recall is part of several other important Progressive
reforms, including the Initiative, the Proposition, the Blanket
Primary Ballot, Civil Service reform, extending the vote to women
and electing the United States Senate, among other reforms. MANY
States (including predominantly Republican States) have copied
California's reforms, and these implementations work very well
for them.

yep

in other words, making government more responsive to the people of the
state, and more beholded to the people of the state.

Post by veronica floss
V.

Kurt Nicklas

2003-08-20 16:11:45 UTC

I am a political Liberal. I want to EXPAND your rights -- yes,
Mister dittohead; even yours.

Let me guess: You want to all have the "right" to "adequate" health
care.
You want us to be guaranteed x weeks of vacation every year. You think
we all have a "right" to a "living wage". You want to provide us with
"housing rights". You want the "right to a fulfilling job"
guaranteed.

Am I getting warm? Have I left anything out, Biff?

-----------
Kurt Nicklas

klystron

2003-08-24 19:47:35 UTC

Post by Kurt Nicklas

I am a political Liberal. I want to EXPAND your rights -- yes,
Mister dittohead; even yours.

As a Liberal, I support whichever public policies that work
effectively, and which are consistant with my Civil Rights.

If these policies work; then I am for them. If they don't; then
I'm not.

What are you for, Kurt?

... or are you just trolling?

kly

Steve Canyon

2003-08-25 01:43:29 UTC

Post by klystron

Post by Kurt Nicklas

I am a political Liberal. I want to EXPAND your rights -- yes,
Mister dittohead; even yours.

As a Liberal, I support whichever public policies that work
effectively, and which are consistant with my Civil Rights.

Who are you kidding? You support any policy that provides you with
the nanny government you so desperately seek.

"I have the right to vote against him in the next
election." --Zepp Jamieson, 1996
http://www.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=4l6trj%24iq4%40news.snowcrest.net

"Legal resident alien Zepp Jamieson, a Canadian who has lived
in the United States for more than 30 years, said his status
changed dramatically with the Patriot Act."
http://www.mtshastanews.com/archives/index.inn?loc=detail&doc=/2003/June/04-1695-news11.txt

Legal resident aliens cannot vote so why does Zepp need to pretend that he is a citizen?

Is this a clue?

"Suppose something happened here, and you had to scram to another
country in a hurry to save your ass. Would you renounce your American
citizenship after a few years?" --Zepp Jamieson 1997
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=3372a9c3.258180564%40news.snowcrest.net

klystron

2003-08-30 03:41:12 UTC

In article <***@4ax.com>,
***@yahoo.com says...

[snip]

Post by Steve Canyon

Post by klystron
As a Liberal, I support whichever public policies that work
effectively, and which are consistant with my Civil Rights.

Who are you kidding? You support any policy that provides you with
the nanny government you so desperately seek.

Nah. Whatever works best is what works for me.

I just want the same quality of Government service that
Haliburton, IBM, Enron and Archer-Daniels-Midland get.

kly

PS: The patented "Stevie Canyon Libruls-R-Bad" boilerplate has
been getting a little thick around here the last week.

Kurt Nicklas

2003-08-30 09:05:45 UTC

Post by Steve Canyon

Post by klystron
As a Liberal, I support whichever public policies that work
effectively, and which are consistant with my Civil Rights.

Who are you kidding? You support any policy that provides you with
the nanny government you so desperately seek.

Nah. Whatever works best is what works for me.

Government as social experiment, huh? Your little War On Poverty going
well these days?

Post by the fucking truth
I just want the same quality of Government service that
Haliburton, IBM, Enron and Archer-Daniels-Midland get.

So you just want lots of 'free stuff' from the government, Biff?

Kurt Nicklas

Steve Canyon

2003-08-30 10:04:36 UTC

Post by Steve Canyon

Post by klystron
As a Liberal, I support whichever public policies that work
effectively, and which are consistant with my Civil Rights.

Who are you kidding? You support any policy that provides you with
the nanny government you so desperately seek.

Nah. Whatever works best is what works for me.

...and you think that a nanny government will work best....

Post by the fucking truth
I just want the same quality of Government service that
Haliburton, IBM, Enron and Archer-Daniels-Midland get.

You'd have to learn how to support yourself, first.

Post by the fucking truth
kly
PS: The patented "Stevie Canyon Libruls-R-Bad" boilerplate has
been getting a little thick around here the last week.

Libruls aren't bad, their just little spoiled crybabies....

"I have the right to vote against him in the next
election." --Zepp Jamieson, 1996
http://www.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=4l6trj%24iq4%40news.snowcrest.net

"Legal resident alien Zepp Jamieson, a Canadian who has lived
in the United States for more than 30 years, said his status
changed dramatically with the Patriot Act."
http://www.mtshastanews.com/archives/index.inn?loc=detail&doc=/2003/June/04-1695-news11.txt

Legal resident aliens cannot vote so why does Zepp need to pretend that he is a citizen?

Is this a clue?

"Suppose something happened here, and you had to scram to another
country in a hurry to save your ass. Would you renounce your American
citizenship after a few years?" --Zepp Jamieson 1997
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=3372a9c3.258180564%40news.snowcrest.net

Kurt Nicklas

2003-08-25 16:59:06 UTC

Post by klystron

Post by Kurt Nicklas

I am a political Liberal. I want to EXPAND your rights -- yes,
Mister dittohead; even yours.

As a Liberal, I support whichever public policies that work
effectively, and which are consistant with my Civil Rights.
If these policies work; then I am for them. If they don't; then
I'm not.

Biff, I think what you 'support' is increasing entitlements (free
education,
free health care, free time off, free job training,free this, free
that) and not human rights and liberty.

Kurt Nicklas

r_c_brown

2003-08-20 16:24:27 UTC

Post by veronica floss
Remember: California voters didn't ask for this Recall fiasco.
They think it is a joke just like the rest of the country does.

au contraire. this was and is a grass roots movement

wrong. the recall began with Melanie Morgan on KSFO radio. Issa did not come
forward with his financial support until over 150,000 signatures were
already gathered - entirely off the internet, with onesy twosy downloads and
signatures.
you boys need to get it through your heads that the people of California are
angry and this is a grass roots movement of the people. this scares the
political establishments of both parties, who quiver in their boots at the
though that there wil be a popular uprising against both of the established
parties.

Melanie Morgan is a news reporter at a rather low-rated hate-talk
radio station (KSFO) that actually has no news department. Her
real claim to fame is that she is married to the KSFO/KGO Station
Manager.
Behind in the ratings, KSFO is always trying promotions, to try
and get listener attention. Ms. Morgan tried this 'recall' notion
as a Station promo activity, because a KSFO talk show host (Jim
Eason) had tried it with another Democrat maybe eight years ago,
and his rallies had boosted *his* ratings. Morgan's promo
quickly died, gathering only ten percent of the signatures they
needed. I don't think they broke 100,000 signatures in a state
with over fifteen million voters.
Enter Darryl Issa. He stepped in and literally BOUGHT the
remaining 1.4 million signatures that the Recall needed.
1.4 million signatures sounds like a lot of people and it is
in a state like Kansas or Oregon -- but this is California. 1.4
million signatures isn't even ten percent of the voters
registered to vote in California. Some groundswell.
The people of California had very little to do with any of this.
You can tell even now by looking at the Field Poll. It shows that
70 % of registered Californian voters think that this recall is a
big waste of time. If they really wanted Davis' scalp; this
particular Field Poll would have shown overwhelming support.

Source: http://field.com/fieldpollonline/subscribers/RLS2081.pdf

According to the Field Poll for 8-15-2003, 58% of likely voters will
vote to recall Mr. Davis (vs 37% against the recall). When looking at
registered voters, the split is 57% vs 34%.

22% of registered voters approve of the job Mr. Davis has done as
Governor; 70% disapprove.

If one looks at the question "is holding a recall election of Governor
Davis a good thing or a bad thing for California", 47% of likely
voters say "bad", 44% say "good".

In looking at the arguments against the recall, 60% of the likely
voters agree with the statement "the recall election is a bad thing
because there are so many candidates to replace Davis, the eventual
winner will likely get only a small share of the total vote, and this
is no way to elect a Governor"; 36% disagree.

There is no question or statement in the poll that queries about the
recall being a waste of time, nor a 70% figure to go along with it.

Post by the fucking truth
V.

Allan Lindsay-O'Neal

2003-08-20 22:13:53 UTC

Post by the fucking truth
1.4 million signatures sounds like a lot of people and it is
in a state like Kansas or Oregon -- but this is California. 1.4
million signatures isn't even ten percent of the voters
registered to vote in California. Some groundswell.

Maybe when compared to "registered voters." But when you put the number up
against the number of people that actually voted in the last state election,
it is.

???????

2003-08-21 04:52:06 UTC

Post by veronica floss
Remember: California voters didn't ask for this Recall fiasco.
They think it is a joke just like the rest of the country does.

au contraire. this was and is a grass roots movement

wrong. the recall began with Melanie Morgan on KSFO radio. Issa did not come
forward with his financial support until over 150,000 signatures were
already gathered - entirely off the internet, with onesy twosy downloads and
signatures.
you boys need to get it through your heads that the people of California are
angry and this is a grass roots movement of the people. this scares the
political establishments of both parties, who quiver in their boots at the
though that there wil be a popular uprising against both of the established
parties.

sour grapes, big boy?

Post by the fucking truth
Behind in the ratings, KSFO is always trying promotions, to try
and get listener attention. Ms. Morgan tried this 'recall' notion
as a Station promo activity, because a KSFO talk show host (Jim
Eason) had tried it with another Democrat maybe eight years ago,
and his rallies had boosted *his* ratings. Morgan's promo
quickly died, gathering only ten percent of the signatures they
needed. I don't think they broke 100,000 signatures in a state
with over fifteen million voters.

your word against Meleanie's. Since I am a regular listener to the morning
show, I heard all about the recall on a daily basis since last January, when
it was first broached in a concewrsation between Melanie and guest Shawn
Steel, former state republican party chairman

I have heard the number 150-200 thousand at the time Issa entered. He
entered solely because of the early enthusiasm of the internet based recall
signature gathering process.

Unless you have hard proof otherwise, I take Melanies word over yours any
day.

Post by the fucking truth
Enter Darryl Issa. He stepped in and literally BOUGHT the
remaining 1.4 million signatures that the Recall needed.

paid signature gathererer are a mainstay of the initiative process. so
what's the big deal, pal?

read the constitution, idiot. what does it say?

Post by the fucking truth
The people of California had very little to do with any of this.

keep telling yourself that, bud, and maybe eventually you wil come to
believe it.

Post by the fucking truth
You can tell even now by looking at the Field Poll. It shows that
70 % of registered Californian voters think that this recall is a
big waste of time. If they really wanted Davis' scalp; this
particular Field Poll would have shown overwhelming support.

poll after poll also shows Davis on his way to Siberia. again, keep lying to
yourself, if that's what helps you sleep at night.

Post by the fucking truth
V.

kodiak

2003-08-24 19:47:37 UTC

Post by veronica floss
Remember: California voters didn't ask for this Recall fiasco.
They think it is a joke just like the rest of the country does.

au contraire. this was and is a grass roots movement

wrong. the recall began with Melanie Morgan on KSFO radio. Issa did not

come

Post by ???????
forward with his financial support until over 150,000 signatures were
already gathered - entirely off the internet, with onesy twosy downloads

and

Post by ???????
signatures.
you boys need to get it through your heads that the people of California

are

Post by ???????
angry and this is a grass roots movement of the people. this scares the
political establishments of both parties, who quiver in their boots at

the

Post by ???????
though that there wil be a popular uprising against both of the

established

Post by ???????
parties.

sour grapes, big boy?

Ah. Now we have a fix on you.

A regular listener to KSFO? ... The Hate-Talk Radio Station that
broadcasts Rush Limbaugh and Dr. Laura and hosts 'Savage Nation?'

I think we have a fix on your political sophistication
and objectivity here.

It is time for a BWAHAHAHA.

*****

Melanie Morgan HELPED gather about 100,000 signatures when this
silly effort stalled. We actually agree on this figure -- yours
is higher but in the ballpark.

Still; it was less than ten percent of the signatures they
needed, and only about one percent of the registered voter
population. This is pathetically small number, even for the
partisan crazies like the California Republican Party has evolved
to become.

Darryl Issa rescued this effort with about $2 million dollars,
which he used to BUY SIGNATURES. 93% of the Recall signatures
were PURCHASED.

Post by ???????
I have heard the number 150-200 thousand at the time Issa entered. He
entered solely because of the early enthusiasm of the internet based recall
signature gathering process.
Unless you have hard proof otherwise, I take Melanies word over yours any
day.

I don't give a fuck what you believe.

Go to Google and do the research.

Post by the fucking truth
Enter Darryl Issa. He stepped in and literally BOUGHT the
remaining 1.4 million signatures that the Recall needed.

paid signature gathererer are a mainstay of the initiative process. so
what's the big deal, pal?

It compromises your argument that the Initiative process is a
fair and Democratic process.

In every statewide election, California voters are confronted by
"Initiatives" that were bought and paid for by large
corporations.

Here are three examples:

Six years ago, one rich lawyer in San Diego bought an initiative
that would have repealed Stockholders' rights to sue businesses
that defrauded them.

Four years ago, Phillip Morris even put a pro-smoking initiative
on the ballot.

This year, Darryl Issa spent $2 million dollars to buy a "Recall"
that he thought would make him Governor by Christmas.

That's the big deal.

[snip partisan hate-talk radio nonsense]

Post by ???????
poll after poll also shows Davis on his way to Siberia. again, keep lying to
yourself, if that's what helps you sleep at night.

Poll after poll are conducted by pro-republican Lobbyist groups
or media organizations that have a business interest in keeping
this story alive. Polls don't affect anything anyway.

For about half the voters; their disapproval of Davis has little
to do with their attitudes toward the recall itself. The Recall
vote itself is therefore probably close and Ahnold doesn't seem
to be making much of a difference.

Bustamante is probably ahead of Ahnold by about 36% to about 22%.
Der Ahnold will have to go some to win this one.

kk

Kurt Nicklas

2003-08-25 21:29:30 UTC

Post by veronica floss
Remember: California voters didn't ask for this Recall fiasco.
They think it is a joke just like the rest of the country does.

au contraire. this was and is a grass roots movement

wrong. the recall began with Melanie Morgan on KSFO radio. Issa did not

come

Post by ???????
forward with his financial support until over 150,000 signatures were
already gathered - entirely off the internet, with onesy twosy downloads

and

Post by ???????
signatures.
you boys need to get it through your heads that the people of California

are

Post by ???????
angry and this is a grass roots movement of the people. this scares the
political establishments of both parties, who quiver in their boots at

the

Post by ???????
though that there wil be a popular uprising against both of the

established

Post by ???????
parties.

sour grapes, big boy?

You really aren't capable of arguing 'straight up' with anyone, are
you, Biff? Always have to include this sort of low-brow ad hominem.
Pretty pathetic.

Post by ???????
*****
Melanie Morgan HELPED gather about 100,000 signatures when this
silly effort stalled. We actually agree on this figure -- yours
is higher but in the ballpark.
Still; it was less than ten percent of the signatures they
needed, and only about one percent of the registered voter
population. This is pathetically small number, even for the
partisan crazies like the California Republican Party has evolved
to become.
Darryl Issa rescued this effort with about $2 million dollars,
which he used to BUY SIGNATURES. 93% of the Recall signatures
were PURCHASED.

In what sense did Issa "buy" signatures?

I don't give a fuck what you believe.
Go to Google and do the research.

A pretty weak response here, Biff. I'd tend to believe you opponent.

Post by the fucking truth
Enter Darryl Issa. He stepped in and literally BOUGHT the
remaining 1.4 million signatures that the Recall needed.

paid signature gathererer are a mainstay of the initiative process. so
what's the big deal, pal?

Companies can't put initiatives on state ballots.

Post by ???????
This year, Darryl Issa spent $2 million dollars to buy a "Recall"
that he thought would make him Governor by Christmas.
That's the big deal.

So he PAID people to sign? Is that your contention?

Post by ???????
[snip partisan hate-talk radio nonsense]

Post by ???????
poll after poll also shows Davis on his way to Siberia. again, keep lying to
yourself, if that's what helps you sleep at night.

Poll after poll are conducted by pro-republican Lobbyist groups
or media organizations that have a business interest in keeping
this story alive. Polls don't affect anything anyway.

But that doesn't stop you from citing them if they're in your favor.

Post by ???????
For about half the voters; their disapproval of Davis has little
to do with their attitudes toward the recall itself. The Recall
vote itself is therefore probably close and Ahnold doesn't seem
to be making much of a difference.

You simply pull figures out the blue.

Post by ???????
Bustamante is probably ahead of Ahnold by about 36% to about 22%.
Der Ahnold will have to go some to win this one.

You simply fantasize, Biff. It really doesn't count for much, you
know.

???????

2003-08-26 02:13:58 UTC

Post by veronica floss
Remember: California voters didn't ask for this Recall fiasco.
They think it is a joke just like the rest of the country does.

au contraire. this was and is a grass roots movement

wrong. the recall began with Melanie Morgan on KSFO radio. Issa did not

come

Post by ???????
forward with his financial support until over 150,000 signatures were
already gathered - entirely off the internet, with onesy twosy downloads

and

Post by ???????
signatures.
you boys need to get it through your heads that the people of California

are

Post by ???????
angry and this is a grass roots movement of the people. this scares the
political establishments of both parties, who quiver in their boots at

the

Post by ???????
though that there wil be a popular uprising against both of the

established

Post by ???????
parties.

sour grapes, big boy?

Ah. Now we have a fix on you.

yep - your prejudices speak loud and clear

Post by kodiak
A regular listener to KSFO? ... The Hate-Talk Radio Station that
broadcasts Rush Limbaugh and Dr. Laura and hosts 'Savage Nation?'

note the terminology. hate talk. yep - the name calling starts

Dr Laura is "hate talk" ? you are pathetic

Savage ain't there no more, not that I ever listen to him.

Post by kodiak
I think we have a fix on your political sophistication
and objectivity here.

actually, we have more of a fix on yours.

Post by kodiak
It is time for a BWAHAHAHA.

note that you have nothing to contribute to the discussion. no facts to
quote. no news sources. just your dempolib hatred for anything and anyone
who disagrees with you.

hahahahahahahaha

Post by kodiak
*****
Melanie Morgan HELPED gather about 100,000 signatures when this
silly effort stalled. We actually agree on this figure -- yours
is higher but in the ballpark.
Still; it was less than ten percent of the signatures they
needed, and only about one percent of the registered voter
population. This is pathetically small number, even for the
partisan crazies like the California Republican Party has evolved
to become.
Darryl Issa rescued this effort with about $2 million dollars,
which he used to BUY SIGNATURES. 93% of the Recall signatures
were PURCHASED.

I don't give a fuck what you believe.
Go to Google and do the research.

Post by the fucking truth
Enter Darryl Issa. He stepped in and literally BOUGHT the
remaining 1.4 million signatures that the Recall needed.

paid signature gathererer are a mainstay of the initiative process. so
what's the big deal, pal?

It compromises your argument that the Initiative process is a
fair and Democratic process.
In every statewide election, California voters are confronted by
"Initiatives" that were bought and paid for by large
corporations.
Six years ago, one rich lawyer in San Diego bought an initiative
that would have repealed Stockholders' rights to sue businesses
that defrauded them.
Four years ago, Phillip Morris even put a pro-smoking initiative
on the ballot.
This year, Darryl Issa spent $2 million dollars to buy a "Recall"
that he thought would make him Governor by Christmas.
That's the big deal.
[snip partisan hate-talk radio nonsense]

Post by ???????
poll after poll also shows Davis on his way to Siberia. again, keep lying to
yourself, if that's what helps you sleep at night.

Poll after poll are conducted by pro-republican Lobbyist groups
or media organizations that have a business interest in keeping
this story alive. Polls don't affect anything anyway.
For about half the voters; their disapproval of Davis has little
to do with their attitudes toward the recall itself. The Recall
vote itself is therefore probably close and Ahnold doesn't seem
to be making much of a difference.
Bustamante is probably ahead of Ahnold by about 36% to about 22%.
Der Ahnold will have to go some to win this one.
kk

???????

2003-08-26 02:25:37 UTC

Post by veronica floss
Remember: California voters didn't ask for this Recall fiasco.
They think it is a joke just like the rest of the country does.

au contraire. this was and is a grass roots movement

wrong. the recall began with Melanie Morgan on KSFO radio. Issa did not

come

Post by ???????
forward with his financial support until over 150,000 signatures were
already gathered - entirely off the internet, with onesy twosy downloads

and

Post by ???????
signatures.
you boys need to get it through your heads that the people of California

are

Post by ???????
angry and this is a grass roots movement of the people. this scares the
political establishments of both parties, who quiver in their boots at

the

Post by ???????
though that there wil be a popular uprising against both of the

established

Post by ???????
parties.

sour grapes, big boy?

Ah. Now we have a fix on you.
A regular listener to KSFO? ... The Hate-Talk Radio Station that
broadcasts Rush Limbaugh and Dr. Laura and hosts 'Savage Nation?'
I think we have a fix on your political sophistication
and objectivity here.
It is time for a BWAHAHAHA.
*****
Melanie Morgan HELPED gather about 100,000 signatures when this
silly effort stalled. We actually agree on this figure -- yours
is higher but in the ballpark.
Still; it was less than ten percent of the signatures they
needed, and only about one percent of the registered voter
population. This is pathetically small number, even for the
partisan crazies like the California Republican Party has evolved
to become.
Darryl Issa rescued this effort with about $2 million dollars,
which he used to BUY SIGNATURES. 93% of the Recall signatures
were PURCHASED.

say, big mouth, when professional signature gatherers are used to qualify an
intitiative which you support, do you complain.

where did the 93% number come from? making it up? you dont have any facts,
just your demolib lies.

I don't give a fuck what you believe.

who cares what you think. you have already demonstrated that you are a
typical demolib liar.

Post by kodiak
Go to Google and do the research.

why don't you do a little research of your own. Start with the August 18
2003 issue of the LA Times, which gives the most accurate histroy of the
recall that I have seen.

Post by the fucking truth
Enter Darryl Issa. He stepped in and literally BOUGHT the
remaining 1.4 million signatures that the Recall needed.

paid signature gathererer are a mainstay of the initiative process. so
what's the big deal, pal?

It compromises your argument that the Initiative process is a
fair and Democratic process.

no it doesn't. not unless you concede the same for all the demolib
initiatives that have hit the ballot over time. noithing undemocratic about
hiring people to gather signatures. if it weren't done, none of your
favorite initiatives would have qualified either.

you are just a sore loser, and you grasp at anything to make your stupid
arguments appear rational in your own mind.

Post by kodiak
In every statewide election, California voters are confronted by
"Initiatives" that were bought and paid for by large
corporations.
Six years ago, one rich lawyer in San Diego bought an initiative
that would have repealed Stockholders' rights to sue businesses
that defrauded them.
Four years ago, Phillip Morris even put a pro-smoking initiative
on the ballot.
This year, Darryl Issa spent $2 million dollars to buy a "Recall"
that he thought would make him Governor by Christmas.
That's the big deal.

you really have this obsession with rich people, don't you. Issa did not buy
votes. His money permitted the hiring of signature gatherers. So fucking
what?

you demolibs keep lying about this. signatures were not paid for ( which
implies that those who signed got money. )

on the other hand, demolibs continually buy the votes of poor and minorities
by doling out favors in the form of programs, welfare, tax credits, and the
like. This is OK. but hiring professionals to gather signatures is not.?
You really need to develop a sense of perspective

Post by kodiak
[snip partisan hate-talk radio nonsense]

fuck you too.

Post by ???????
poll after poll also shows Davis on his way to Siberia. again, keep lying to
yourself, if that's what helps you sleep at night.

Poll after poll are conducted by pro-republican Lobbyist groups
or media organizations that have a business interest in keeping
this story alive. Polls don't affect anything anyway.

do you say the same when the poll results indicate something that you are in
favor of? I think you are a pathetic hypocrite.

Post by kodiak
For about half the voters; their disapproval of Davis has little
to do with their attitudes toward the recall itself. The Recall
vote itself is therefore probably close and Ahnold doesn't seem
to be making much of a difference.
Bustamante is probably ahead of Ahnold by about 36% to about 22%.
Der Ahnold will have to go some to win this one.

where did you get these numbers? from one of the polls you show so much
disdain for?

fuck off.

Post by kodiak
kk

Khalid Rahim

2003-08-27 18:48:19 UTC

kodiak <***@uak.edu> wrote in message news:<

(snip)

bwa ha! milt/veronica/kodiak, tell us some more about the Republican bay area!

kodiak

2003-08-30 02:25:33 UTC

Post by Khalid Rahim
(snip)
bwa ha! milt/veronica/kodiak, tell us some more about the Republican bay area!

Never said the bay area was Republican.

... said that Bay Area Business CEOs were Republican.

KSFO is a hate-talk radio station that ran a silly 'radio recall'
hype event to boost its ratings last year. Melanie Morgan started
it. She is a "news reporter" on this station that has no news
department. She is really in charge of running radio contests
like this, to hype KSFO's dismal ratings. She got her slot
because she's married to the KSFO/KGO Station Manager.

KSFOs "recall" stalled until Darryl Issa literally BOUGHT 90 % of
the signatures that put the Recall on the ballot.

Now you go ahead and explain to us about how Der Ahnold is going
to win the Recall with 22% of the vote.

Go ahead.

kk

Khalid Rahim

2003-08-31 18:12:03 UTC

you also threw in that the engineers and the VCs were Repubs, hoser.
Doesn't leave much of Shitcan Valley out.

And you never gave any evidence, just kept asserting it over and over.

But I can't blame someone who's juggling at least 3 identities on
USENET to keep his arguments straight.

Post by kodiak
Never said the bay area was Republican.
... said that Bay Area Business CEOs were Republican.

molly

2003-09-01 20:53:40 UTC

Post by Khalid Rahim
you also threw in that the engineers and the VCs were Repubs, hoser.
Doesn't leave much of Shitcan Valley out.
And you never gave any evidence, just kept asserting it over and over.
But I can't blame someone who's juggling at least 3 identities on
USENET to keep his arguments straight.

You claimed that Silicon valley was pretty much a Socialist
Republic of lazy godless humanists who all deserved to lose their
jobs.

I corrected you.

In fact CEOs, Engineers and Venture Capitalists are all pretty
much Libertarian/Republicans. They all run their companies the
way Libertarian/Republicans do. Their "Libertarian" business
ethics pretty much explains why their dot-Coms collapsed.

True Story.

****

We really must have stung you pretty good, to hold a grudge this
long. I guess you aren't used to discovering how wrong you are in
public like this, in front of all your Young Republican friends.

... and we must be even more correct than we thought, if all you
can do is complain about our posting handles.

Happy Labor day.

molly

Khalid Rahim

2003-09-02 13:42:26 UTC

Post by molly
I corrected you.

LOL. With no evidence and by repeating yourself.

Post by molly
... and we must be even more correct than we thought, if all you
can do is complain about our posting handles.

"our"? ha.

kodiak

2003-09-02 17:10:58 UTC

Post by molly

on the other hand, the demolibs who control Hollywood are different. All of
the movies make money, which is why all the actors, directors, producers,
etc who can swing it go for a percentage of the net. right? ;)

1) This is all bullshit.

2) This isn't even good bullshit.

3) This mediocre bullshit hasn't got a thing to do
with Silicon Valley.

4) This mediocre bullshit has even *less* to do with
the fact that the California Recall had NO popular
support.

A rich Republican named Darryl Issa paid $2M to put the
Gubenatorial Recall on the ballot. Around 70% of all Californians
think it's a stupid waste of money.

Post by molly
We really must have stung you pretty good, to hold a grudge this
long. I guess you aren't used to discovering how wrong you are in
public like this, in front of all your Young Republican friends.
... and we must be even more correct than we thought, if all you
can do is complain about our posting handles.
Happy Labor day.
molly

Khalid Rahim

2003-09-04 13:30:14 UTC

Post by kodiak
Around 70% of all Californians
think it's a stupid waste of money.

Evidence. How about some evidence. do you even know the meaning of that word?

r_c_brown

2003-09-04 17:56:25 UTC

Post by Khalid Rahim

Post by kodiak
Around 70% of all Californians
think it's a stupid waste of money.

Evidence. How about some evidence. do you even know the meaning of that word?

molly

2003-09-04 20:22:19 UTC

Post by r_c_brown

Post by Khalid Rahim

Post by kodiak
Around 70% of all Californians
think it's a stupid waste of money.

Evidence. How about some evidence. do you even know the meaning of that word?

This data is flawed and six weeks out of date. Today's reports
show anti-Recall votes actually pulling about 51 percent.

You know it.

Post by r_c_brown
22% of registered voters approve of the job Mr. Davis has done as
Governor; 70% disapprove.

This is VERY old data, from several months ago, and it is no
longer valid. It asks about approval; not Recall. You know all
this and you posted it anyway. This makes you a liar.

Not to me, though. To your political friends out here. You're
lying to people who agree with you. How low is that?

Post by r_c_brown
If one looks at the question "is holding a recall election of Governor
Davis a good thing or a bad thing for California", 47% of likely
voters say "bad", 44% say "good".

Old, old, out of date data. See above.

Post by r_c_brown
In looking at the arguments against the recall, 60% of the likely
voters agree with the statement "the recall election is a bad thing
because there are so many candidates to replace Davis, the eventual
winner will likely get only a small share of the total vote, and this
is no way to elect a Governor"; 36% disagree.
There is no question or statement in the poll that queries about the
recall being a waste of time, nor a 70% figure to go along with it.

You have posted very old data that we now know was badly flawed.
You know it.

Was the Field poll validated? It wasn't, and you know it.

Is the Field poll shown to be accurate? It isn't, and you know
it.

****

Were there other polls conducted, and have they shown the same
results? There were, and you know it.

In fact, haven't all these pollsters been 'embarrassed' by how
incorrect their numbers have proven to be? Weren't there stories
in the LA Times and on MSNBC and CNN about how embarrassingly
"off" all these polls were from each other?

As a reference, it sure surprised everybody when Bustamante
scored 12 points ahead of Ahnold at the same time another poll
showed Ahnold scoring 18 points ahead of Bustamante. Both polls
were flawed.

We know now that Bustamante is waaaay ahead of Ahnold and that
Ahnold is in trouble. What do you think of that, given the
"polling data" you referenced above?

****

Don't hide behind flawed political polls, rc.

I'd rather discuss politics with you, but this is garbage and you
know it. As many times as you repeat it, it will not make it
true, or even help it to come true.

People who agree with you will be dismayed with you, when your
pretend-proof like this turns out to be as flawed as you already
know it is.

If you can't do better, I'll start treating you like the Loon you
look like here. You don't deserve any better.

molly

klystron

2003-09-04 20:22:20 UTC

In article <***@posting.google.com>,
***@hushmail.com says...

[ lying lies from a lying liar lying to his lying friends,
snipped]

By the way, rc; how many different posting handles are you using?

You look a lot like khalid, Martin, Ernst and several other
dissembling Edmund Burkean Loons out here.

That's a lotta ISP accounts to maintain, for somebody who has
essentially nothing to say.

kly

r_c_brown

2003-09-05 03:51:04 UTC

Post by klystron
[ lying lies from a lying liar lying to his lying friends,
snipped]
By the way, rc; how many different posting handles are you using?

One. I've always posted as r_c_brown, since that is who I am.

Post by klystron
You look a lot like khalid, Martin, Ernst and several other
dissembling Edmund Burkean Loons out here.
That's a lotta ISP accounts to maintain, for somebody who has
essentially nothing to say.
kly

observer

2003-08-18 17:22:08 UTC

Post by veronica floss

Post by Brain Death
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 05:50:27 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

We all agree that the election is poorly thought out and designed
(after all, it was a "progressive" reform). The real question is,
what do you do to fix that so it does not happen again?
BD

The Progressive movement is a Republican Party movement, and it
is over one hundred years old.
The California Recall was written to handle the quick recall of
misbehaving local and county officials. It's been used many times
for that purpose, and it continues to work well when voters use
it to do that. It *never* should have been used to recall a
State Official.

Most Californians disagree with you, according to the polls.

Post by veronica floss
Remember: California voters didn't ask for this Recall fiasco.
They think it is a joke just like the rest of the country does.

We will see. The media treats it as if it is a fiasco, which is not
surprising;but
most Californians take it seriously.

observer

2003-08-15 15:47:04 UTC

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Gray matters
Behind the glitzy facade of California's recall saga lie issues deeply
significant for US democracy and the 2004 presidential election,
writes Julian Borger

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
No one has thus far accused the buttoned-down Davis of sexual
hedonism. His main failings are that he exudes the charisma of a
lamppost (his own mother gave him the nickname Gray), and had
misfortune to be in office when the dot.com crash and an energy crisis
- which was the fault of many - knocked a huge hole in the state's
finances.

He had the misfortune to triple the car tax, to give California drivers
to illegal aliens and when it became crunch time, making sure tranvestites
had a right to wear dresses on the job when their employers don't
want them to.

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Arguably, the principal responsibility for failing to find an economic
fix lies with the state legislature, which has been unable to agree on
a workable budget. Democrats want a mix of tax increases and spending
cuts. Republicans refuse to contemplate new taxes and want the burden
of the deficit reduced by cutting social expenditure.

Dems wanted to triple the car tax. It backfired and triggered the recall.

<snipped>

the fucking truth

2003-08-18 03:44:36 UTC

In article <Yf7%a.20$***@twister.socal.rr.com>,
***@privacy.nu says...
[snip]

Post by observer
Dems wanted to triple the car tax. It backfired and triggered the recall.

fucking nonsense, posted from someone carefully posting
anonymously from the Netherlands. Can we all say "Republican
shill?"

*****

What a bunch of effete NeoCon goofballs.

Twenty yards of Recall silliness posted here going back a month,
and theres' not three messages here that called a single shot
correctly.

You NeoCon turkeys from H0mi and Brain Death and Dana and foxtrot
and tasmanian whatever -- to some of you so-called brighter
NeoCon dimbulbs, like Paul Havemann, Marty McFly -- ALL of you
ought to be embarrassed all to Hell for the shots you've
completely failed to call in all your heavily educated stuffed-
shirt persnicketiness.

California has made collective fools of you.

Please note:

There was no popular groundswell of support for a Recall. None.
The recall had nothing to do with Davis' handling of anything.

This Recall happened because just ONE rich partisan Conservative
Republican in San Diego (darryl Issa) wanted to run for Governor
in October, before he had to file to run for his House seat in
March. He BOUGHT the signatures. It cost him $2 million dollars.

Darryl Issa has single-handedly ruined his chances for any other
political office for the rest of his life, and cost his friend
George Bush maybe a half million Californian votes in bad will in
the Presidential Election next year. It was massively stupid. You
should have noticed.

Ahnold never was in the lead. He isn't now. He will have a fuck
of a time getting more than 27 percent of the vote. His peak was
this week.

If you think that Ahnold ever was in the lead; then Fox News and
the other political gossip channels you watch have taken cruel
advantage of your blind partisan NeoCon stupidity to brainwash
you. They got away with it, because you think they are friends of
yours. Wake up: They are not friends of yours.

Bustemanti always was in the lead, and he still IS. You should
have noticed. Bustimante will have a hard time pulling LESS than
27% of the Recall vote. He is likely to pull 35 to 40% of the
recall vote.

You don't need inside information to figure this out -- all you
needed were simple AP News articles which report basic data for
all to see... and the sense to read through it. I am really,
honestly embarrassed for how gullible and malliable your
collective GOP partisanship has left you. You are collectively
very, very stupid people.

Davis is within about five points of beating the Recall as it
stands, and he hasn't even begun to campaign yet. As Governor,
Davis can pull about seven percent out of his hat any time he
wants. This means that Ahnold will have to pull two or
three amazing campaign rabbits out of his ass to buy the three or
four points he needs, just to qualify to get his votes counted --
where Bustimante will STILL beat him.

Homework question: Do you think the power failure back east this
week helped or hurt Grey Davis?

****

The vote in the Bay Area will determine the recall. If the Bay
Area turns out; the Recall will be defeated. The Bay area has a
fairly high turnout percentage, and people here are more angry at
George Bush today than they were three years ago.

If the Recall passes; do you know who will beat Ahnold? ... not
Bustimante. Peter Uberroth and Arianna Huffington will
determine Ahnold's fate. If these two folks each pull around ten
percent and anybody else gets four percent; then Ahnold can not
possibly get more than Bustimante, and Bustimante will win.

Period.

tft

PS: Uberroth would actually make a good Governor.

That's who you should be rooting for if you gave a damn.

Rob

2003-08-18 06:29:36 UTC

Post by the fucking truth
tft
PS: Uberroth would actually make a good Governor.
That's who you should be rooting for if you gave a damn.

Damn straight. Unfortunately, the best candidate rarely wins because the
stupid Republicans will flock to Simon because that's who Limbaugh and Fox
News will tell them to vote for. Oh well, they can keep goose stepping right
on out of the political mainstream.

???????

2003-08-18 20:22:00 UTC

Post by the fucking truth
tft
PS: Uberroth would actually make a good Governor.
That's who you should be rooting for if you gave a damn.

and you demolibs will flock to Cruz baby because that's what McAuliffe and
your other demolib masters tell YOU to do.

velocity

2003-08-19 22:33:25 UTC

Post by the fucking truth
tft
PS: Uberroth would actually make a good Governor.
That's who you should be rooting for if you gave a damn.

right

Post by Rob
on out of the political mainstream.

and you demolibs will flock to Cruz baby because that's what McAuliffe and
your other demolib masters tell YOU to do.

Does this silly polly-want-a-cracker opinion constitute
intelligent political thinking to you, or are you listening a
mite too much to Rush Limbaugh?

velocity

Eagle Eye

2003-08-19 22:49:57 UTC

In article <***@altnews.sonic.net>
Milt Brewster wrote:
[snip]

So what other sockpuppet names are you using in this thread
besides "kodiak", "the fucking truth", and "velocity"?

=====
EE

Celebrate mentem sibi conscia rationis.

???????

2003-08-19 23:05:30 UTC

Post by velocity

Post by the fucking truth
tft
PS: Uberroth would actually make a good Governor.
That's who you should be rooting for if you gave a damn.

right

Post by Rob
on out of the political mainstream.

and you demolibs will flock to Cruz baby because that's what McAuliffe and
your other demolib masters tell YOU to do.

Does this silly polly-want-a-cracker opinion constitute
intelligent political thinking to you, or are you listening a
mite too much to Rush Limbaugh?

sauce for the goose, pal. you demolibs call us dittoheads and claim we are
brainwashed. but it is you who parrot the mantras of your demolib masters.

squawk

Post by velocity
velocity

observer

2003-08-20 22:48:33 UTC

Post by the fucking truth
tft
PS: Uberroth would actually make a good Governor.
That's who you should be rooting for if you gave a damn.

Damn it sure is unfortunate that people can vote for anyone they want.
I think I'll move to Cuba.

Brain Death

2003-08-18 06:47:57 UTC

On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:44:36 -0700, the fucking truth

Post by observer
Dems wanted to triple the car tax. It backfired and triggered the recall.

fucking nonsense, posted from someone carefully posting
anonymously from the Netherlands.

Can we all say that your message tracing skills leave something to be
desired? The message ID says socal.rr.com, which, I'm going to go out
on a limb here and guess means Southern California "Roadrunner". The
postfix for the Netherlands is .nl, not .nu.

Post by the fucking truth
There was no popular groundswell of support for a Recall. None.
The recall had nothing to do with Davis' handling of anything.

Keep telling yourself that.

Post by the fucking truth
Darryl Issa has single-handedly ruined his chances for any other
political office for the rest of his life, and cost his friend
George Bush maybe a half million Californian votes in bad will in
the Presidential Election next year. It was massively stupid. You
should have noticed.

Maybe you missed the post where I speculated that it might be better
to leave Davis in office?

Post by the fucking truth
If you think that Ahnold ever was in the lead; then Fox News and
the other political gossip channels you watch have taken cruel
advantage of your blind partisan NeoCon stupidity to brainwash
you. They got away with it, because you think they are friends of
yours. Wake up: They are not friends of yours.

Let's just call this the David Brooks rule: If you hear the word
"Neocon" in a sentence uttered by a liberal, odds are good that the
rest of the sentence is a lie.

Post by the fucking truth
Bustemanti always was in the lead, and he still IS. You should
have noticed. Bustimante will have a hard time pulling LESS than
27% of the Recall vote. He is likely to pull 35 to 40% of the
recall vote.

No guarantee. There may be a few "nigger lawyers" (Bustamante's term
not mine) who don't want to vote for him.

Post by the fucking truth
Davis is within about five points of beating the Recall as it
stands, and he hasn't even begun to campaign yet. As Governor,
Davis can pull about seven percent out of his hat any time he
wants.

So then why all the brave talk about how Bustamante is going to pull
35-40% of the recall vote? It doesn't matter if Davis is going to get
52% in favor of retaining him.

Post by the fucking truth
This means that Ahnold will have to pull two or
three amazing campaign rabbits out of his ass to buy the three or
four points he needs, just to qualify to get his votes counted --
where Bustimante will STILL beat him.
Homework question: Do you think the power failure back east this
week helped or hurt Grey Davis?

Hurt. The last thing Davis wants anybody thinking about is blackouts.

Post by the fucking truth
The vote in the Bay Area will determine the recall. If the Bay
Area turns out; the Recall will be defeated. The Bay area has a
fairly high turnout percentage, and people here are more angry at
George Bush today than they were three years ago.

Good. Roll that anger into a tight little ball and then swallow it
and let it fester deep inside you.

Post by the fucking truth
If the Recall passes; do you know who will beat Ahnold? ... not
Bustimante. Peter Uberroth and Arianna Huffington will
determine Ahnold's fate. If these two folks each pull around ten
percent and anybody else gets four percent; then Ahnold can not
possibly get more than Bustimante, and Bustimante will win.
Period.
tft
PS: Uberroth would actually make a good Governor.
That's who you should be rooting for if you gave a damn.

Yes, Ueberroth would make a fine governor. I don't particularly like
Arnold's candidacy, but it is made for this type of election.

Predictions:

1. Gray Davis is recalled.
2. Bustamante is NOT elected to replace him.

Further Deponent sayeth not. Except that you are obviously Milt
Brewster and I will have to killfile this new identity of yours.

BD

"Members and front organizations must continually embarrass, discredit and degrade our critics. When obstructionists become too irritating, label them as fascist, or Nazi or anti-Semitic .... The association will, after enough repetition, become "fact" in the public mind."
--Communist Party, Moscow Central Committee 1943

kodiak

2003-08-18 20:34:10 UTC

Post by Brain Death
On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:44:36 -0700, the fucking truth

Post by observer
Dems wanted to triple the car tax. It backfired and triggered the recall.

fucking nonsense, posted from someone carefully posting
anonymously from the Netherlands.

I owe you two mea-culpas.

1) You are right that this post didn't come from the
Netherlands. I was incorrect.

2) I missed the message where you disassociated yourself from
the Ahnold hysteria taking place in the Cable/hate talk radio
media circus all Summer long.

postfix for the Netherlands is .nl, not .nu.

Post by the fucking truth
There was no popular groundswell of support for a Recall. None.
The recall had nothing to do with Davis' handling of anything.

Keep telling yourself that.

There was no groundswell. Local California polls show that even
today, close to 70% of Californians think this whole exercise is
silly, and "silly" isn't an overstatement. This is why Registrars
expect a very low turnout, and are having trouble figuring
out which polling places to open. There simply isn't any
groundswell.

Yes, brain death; there *IS* a Darryl Issa. He DID pay for the
Recall himself (it was dying until he stepped in.)

Darryl Issa paid 1.7 million dollars to directly purchase the
signatures that pushed the Recall through. Almost every sig
reported to the Secretary of State was purchased. Purchasing
signatures is legal in California, and the Secretary of State
documented all this.

Maybe you missed the post where I speculated that it might be better
to leave Davis in office?

Yes, I did. I didn't miss the dozens of other posts, where you
take shots that are both cheap and snide, at the whole process --
and then saw the same things being said by talking heads on Cable
TeeVee.

Yelling your head off for five minutes and then whispering "never
mind" does not really count as a disavowal.

Let's just call this the David Brooks rule: If you hear the word
"Neocon" in a sentence uttered by a liberal, odds are good that the
rest of the sentence is a lie.

The term "NeoCon" is not an epithet the last I heard.

On the other hand; Rush Limbaugh and a hundred other hate-talk
radio hosts have turned the very honorable term "Liberal" into a
smear. This hurts everybody -- even people who disagree with what
they think Liberalism is, because it makes it harder for them to
think about political events that come before us.

****

But this isn't why you whined about the word "neocon."

You wanted to distract everybody from what I said:

*) Ahnold NEVER held the lead.
*) Bustimante ALWAYS has held the lead.
*) Our FCC-Approved Corporate Media has refused to report this.

*) You and other NeoCon partisans have apparently
been completely taken by surprise.

[snip]

Post by Brain Death
Hurt. The last thing Davis wants anybody thinking about is blackouts.

If I were Davis; I'd probably ignore Ahnold and I'd run against
Bush.

The Blackout question lets Davis remind voters of the $40 billion
dollars that Bush let Enron and company steal from California
voters from 1999 to 2001.

You win, though. Davis will continue to hunker down and pretend
that none of this is happening. Davis is constitutionally
incapable of taking the lead on anything.

Good. Roll that anger into a tight little ball and then swallow it
and let it fester deep inside you.

Nope. It's true. LA voters are apathetic. Orange and San Diego
Counties are not as pro-GOP as they need to be any more.
Unemployment is high. In San Diego, the Marines haven't come
home from Iraq: This is not good for Ahnold.

In contrast, continuing unemployment and National nonsense from
Bush has energized the Bay Area. San Francisco voters will be
joined by Silicon Valley this time around; it's just a matter of
getting people to the polls.

Since the Statewide turnout will be light, it will only take a
few percentage point boost in turnout in a partisan county, to
pretty much determine the Statewide vote. Without LA; the Bay
Area just might squash the recall.

Yes, Ueberroth would make a fine governor. I don't particularly like
Arnold's candidacy, but it is made for this type of election.
1. Gray Davis is recalled.
2. Bustamante is NOT elected to replace him.

Good predictions. I don't know how the Recall is going to come
out -- but I don't think the media is presenting the case for
Davis very well.

Davis can buy several points any time he wants. Ahnold can't.

If the recall goes through; then Ahnold still has to beat
Bustimante, who will have first call on the approximately fifty
percent of all Recall votes that are cast by Democrats. Ahnold
starts by giving away 1/3 to 1/2 his vote to other candidates.

You should be dealing with these issues above, instead of posting
more half-truths from the Bill O'Reilly show and calling me
names.

Post by Brain Death
Further Deponent sayeth not. Except that you are obviously Milt
Brewster and I will have to killfile this new identity of yours.

Ah. You used the word "sayeth." That must mean you are a highly
discriminating Usenet conniseur (sp), who sips Usenet posts the
way a wine buyer sips the latest Napa Valley vintage.

******

For the rest of us, killfiling is what effete whiners do when
they just can't defend themselves, and their insulting replies
are continually met with better one-liners than they can come up
with.

Killfiling has its downside. People who killfile messages never
see the worst said about their original post. .... you abandon
the field to someone you have no respect for, allowing the
reviled, killfiled poster the last word.

You are too smart for killfiling anyone.

Therefore this is just a silly pose.

This reply makes you look like a brainwashed, dissembling
partisan NeoCon ass.

I trust I've been clear.

kk

???????

2003-08-18 20:47:27 UTC

Post by Brain Death
On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:44:36 -0700, the fucking truth

Post by observer
Dems wanted to triple the car tax. It backfired and triggered the recall.

fucking nonsense, posted from someone carefully posting
anonymously from the Netherlands.

I owe you two mea-culpas.
1) You are right that this post didn't come from the
Netherlands. I was incorrect.
2) I missed the message where you disassociated yourself from
the Ahnold hysteria taking place in the Cable/hate talk radio
media circus all Summer long.
postfix for the Netherlands is .nl, not .nu.

Post by the fucking truth
There was no popular groundswell of support for a Recall. None.
The recall had nothing to do with Davis' handling of anything.

Keep telling yourself that.

There was no groundswell. Local California polls show that even
today, close to 70% of Californians think this whole exercise is
silly, and "silly" isn't an overstatement. This is why Registrars
expect a very low turnout, and are having trouble figuring
out which polling places to open. There simply isn't any
groundswell.
Yes, brain death; there *IS* a Darryl Issa. He DID pay for the
Recall himself (it was dying until he stepped in.)
Darryl Issa paid 1.7 million dollars to directly purchase the
signatures that pushed the Recall through. Almost every sig
reported to the Secretary of State was purchased. Purchasing
signatures is legal in California, and the Secretary of State
documented all this.

mine wasn't. neither was my wife's

neither were the 200,000 that were collected PRIOR to Issa stepping in.. IN
FACT, it was the large number of signatures already gathered that encouraged
Issa to join the party.

get your facts straight. you still don't know what you are talking about.

Maybe you missed the post where I speculated that it might be better
to leave Davis in office?

Yes, I did. I didn't miss the dozens of other posts, where you
take shots that are both cheap and snide, at the whole process --
and then saw the same things being said by talking heads on Cable
TeeVee.
Yelling your head off for five minutes and then whispering "never
mind" does not really count as a disavowal.

Let's just call this the David Brooks rule: If you hear the word
"Neocon" in a sentence uttered by a liberal, odds are good that the
rest of the sentence is a lie.

The term "NeoCon" is not an epithet the last I heard.
On the other hand; Rush Limbaugh and a hundred other hate-talk
radio hosts have turned the very honorable term "Liberal" into a
smear. This hurts everybody -- even people who disagree with what
they think Liberalism is, because it makes it harder for them to
think about political events that come before us.
****
But this isn't why you whined about the word "neocon."
*) Ahnold NEVER held the lead.
*) Bustimante ALWAYS has held the lead.
*) Our FCC-Approved Corporate Media has refused to report this.
*) You and other NeoCon partisans have apparently
been completely taken by surprise.
[snip]

Post by Brain Death
Hurt. The last thing Davis wants anybody thinking about is blackouts.

If I were Davis; I'd probably ignore Ahnold and I'd run against
Bush.
The Blackout question lets Davis remind voters of the $40 billion
dollars that Bush let Enron and company steal from California
voters from 1999 to 2001.
You win, though. Davis will continue to hunker down and pretend
that none of this is happening. Davis is constitutionally
incapable of taking the lead on anything.

Good. Roll that anger into a tight little ball and then swallow it
and let it fester deep inside you.

Nope. It's true. LA voters are apathetic. Orange and San Diego
Counties are not as pro-GOP as they need to be any more.
Unemployment is high. In San Diego, the Marines haven't come
home from Iraq: This is not good for Ahnold.
In contrast, continuing unemployment and National nonsense from
Bush has energized the Bay Area. San Francisco voters will be
joined by Silicon Valley this time around; it's just a matter of
getting people to the polls.
Since the Statewide turnout will be light, it will only take a
few percentage point boost in turnout in a partisan county, to
pretty much determine the Statewide vote. Without LA; the Bay
Area just might squash the recall.

Good predictions. I don't know how the Recall is going to come
out -- but I don't think the media is presenting the case for
Davis very well.
Davis can buy several points any time he wants. Ahnold can't.
If the recall goes through; then Ahnold still has to beat
Bustimante, who will have first call on the approximately fifty
percent of all Recall votes that are cast by Democrats. Ahnold
starts by giving away 1/3 to 1/2 his vote to other candidates.
You should be dealing with these issues above, instead of posting
more half-truths from the Bill O'Reilly show and calling me
names.

Post by Brain Death
Further Deponent sayeth not. Except that you are obviously Milt
Brewster and I will have to killfile this new identity of yours.

Ah. You used the word "sayeth." That must mean you are a highly
discriminating Usenet conniseur (sp), who sips Usenet posts the
way a wine buyer sips the latest Napa Valley vintage.
******
For the rest of us, killfiling is what effete whiners do when
they just can't defend themselves, and their insulting replies
are continually met with better one-liners than they can come up
with.
Killfiling has its downside. People who killfile messages never
see the worst said about their original post. .... you abandon
the field to someone you have no respect for, allowing the
reviled, killfiled poster the last word.
You are too smart for killfiling anyone.
Therefore this is just a silly pose.
This reply makes you look like a brainwashed, dissembling
partisan NeoCon ass.
I trust I've been clear.
kk

Rocky and Bullwinkle

2003-08-18 23:06:43 UTC

Post by Brain Death
On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:44:36 -0700, the fucking truth

Post by the fucking truth
There was no popular groundswell of support for a Recall. None.
The recall had nothing to do with Davis' handling of anything.

Keep telling yourself that.

Millions protested against the war for Israel, and now they signed for a
recall. There is your groundswell.

Joe

2003-08-19 22:15:40 UTC

Paid signature gatherers are used even in the pet liberal initiatives

Post by Brain Death
On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:44:36 -0700, the fucking truth

Post by observer
Dems wanted to triple the car tax. It backfired and triggered the recall.

fucking nonsense, posted from someone carefully posting
anonymously from the Netherlands.

I owe you two mea-culpas.
1) You are right that this post didn't come from the
Netherlands. I was incorrect.
2) I missed the message where you disassociated yourself from
the Ahnold hysteria taking place in the Cable/hate talk radio
media circus all Summer long.
postfix for the Netherlands is .nl, not .nu.

Post by the fucking truth
There was no popular groundswell of support for a Recall. None.
The recall had nothing to do with Davis' handling of anything.

Keep telling yourself that.

There was no groundswell. Local California polls show that even
today, close to 70% of Californians think this whole exercise is
silly, and "silly" isn't an overstatement. This is why Registrars
expect a very low turnout, and are having trouble figuring
out which polling places to open. There simply isn't any
groundswell.
Yes, brain death; there *IS* a Darryl Issa. He DID pay for the
Recall himself (it was dying until he stepped in.)
Darryl Issa paid 1.7 million dollars to directly purchase the
signatures that pushed the Recall through. Almost every sig
reported to the Secretary of State was purchased. Purchasing
signatures is legal in California, and the Secretary of State
documented all this.

Maybe you missed the post where I speculated that it might be better
to leave Davis in office?

Yes, I did. I didn't miss the dozens of other posts, where you
take shots that are both cheap and snide, at the whole process --
and then saw the same things being said by talking heads on Cable
TeeVee.
Yelling your head off for five minutes and then whispering "never
mind" does not really count as a disavowal.

Let's just call this the David Brooks rule: If you hear the word
"Neocon" in a sentence uttered by a liberal, odds are good that the
rest of the sentence is a lie.

The term "NeoCon" is not an epithet the last I heard.
On the other hand; Rush Limbaugh and a hundred other hate-talk
radio hosts have turned the very honorable term "Liberal" into a
smear. This hurts everybody -- even people who disagree with what
they think Liberalism is, because it makes it harder for them to
think about political events that come before us.
****
But this isn't why you whined about the word "neocon."
*) Ahnold NEVER held the lead.
*) Bustimante ALWAYS has held the lead.
*) Our FCC-Approved Corporate Media has refused to report this.
*) You and other NeoCon partisans have apparently
been completely taken by surprise.
[snip]

Post by Brain Death
Hurt. The last thing Davis wants anybody thinking about is blackouts.

If I were Davis; I'd probably ignore Ahnold and I'd run against
Bush.
The Blackout question lets Davis remind voters of the $40 billion
dollars that Bush let Enron and company steal from California
voters from 1999 to 2001.
You win, though. Davis will continue to hunker down and pretend
that none of this is happening. Davis is constitutionally
incapable of taking the lead on anything.

Good. Roll that anger into a tight little ball and then swallow it
and let it fester deep inside you.

Nope. It's true. LA voters are apathetic. Orange and San Diego
Counties are not as pro-GOP as they need to be any more.
Unemployment is high. In San Diego, the Marines haven't come
home from Iraq: This is not good for Ahnold.
In contrast, continuing unemployment and National nonsense from
Bush has energized the Bay Area. San Francisco voters will be
joined by Silicon Valley this time around; it's just a matter of
getting people to the polls.
Since the Statewide turnout will be light, it will only take a
few percentage point boost in turnout in a partisan county, to
pretty much determine the Statewide vote. Without LA; the Bay
Area just might squash the recall.

Good predictions. I don't know how the Recall is going to come
out -- but I don't think the media is presenting the case for
Davis very well.
Davis can buy several points any time he wants. Ahnold can't.
If the recall goes through; then Ahnold still has to beat
Bustimante, who will have first call on the approximately fifty
percent of all Recall votes that are cast by Democrats. Ahnold
starts by giving away 1/3 to 1/2 his vote to other candidates.
You should be dealing with these issues above, instead of posting
more half-truths from the Bill O'Reilly show and calling me
names.

Post by Brain Death
Further Deponent sayeth not. Except that you are obviously Milt
Brewster and I will have to killfile this new identity of yours.

Ah. You used the word "sayeth." That must mean you are a highly
discriminating Usenet conniseur (sp), who sips Usenet posts the
way a wine buyer sips the latest Napa Valley vintage.
******
For the rest of us, killfiling is what effete whiners do when
they just can't defend themselves, and their insulting replies
are continually met with better one-liners than they can come up
with.
Killfiling has its downside. People who killfile messages never
see the worst said about their original post. .... you abandon
the field to someone you have no respect for, allowing the
reviled, killfiled poster the last word.
You are too smart for killfiling anyone.
Therefore this is just a silly pose.
This reply makes you look like a brainwashed, dissembling
partisan NeoCon ass.
I trust I've been clear.
kk

Brain Death

2003-08-20 17:18:03 UTC

Post by Brain Death
On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:44:36 -0700, the fucking truth

Post by observer
Dems wanted to triple the car tax. It backfired and triggered the recall.

fucking nonsense, posted from someone carefully posting
anonymously from the Netherlands.

I owe you two mea-culpas.
1) You are right that this post didn't come from the
Netherlands. I was incorrect.
2) I missed the message where you disassociated yourself from
the Ahnold hysteria taking place in the Cable/hate talk radio
media circus all Summer long.
postfix for the Netherlands is .nl, not .nu.

Post by the fucking truth
There was no popular groundswell of support for a Recall. None.
The recall had nothing to do with Davis' handling of anything.

Keep telling yourself that.

"According to the nonpartisan Field Poll, support for the recall among
voters has grown from 46 percent in April to a whopping 58 percent --
with a big chunk of the recall support coming from fellow Democrats."

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/08/20/BA301145.DTL

Post by kodiak
Yes, brain death; there *IS* a Darryl Issa. He DID pay for the
Recall himself (it was dying until he stepped in.)
Darryl Issa paid 1.7 million dollars to directly purchase the
signatures that pushed the Recall through. Almost every sig
reported to the Secretary of State was purchased. Purchasing
signatures is legal in California, and the Secretary of State
documented all this.

This is the kind of dishonesty that gets you on the kill-filter lists.
Issa did not "directly purchase the signatures". He paid signature
*gatherers*, not signers. We have paid signature gatherers in
Arizona, too. Haven't seen a recall petition since the 1980s though.

Maybe you missed the post where I speculated that it might be better
to leave Davis in office?

It is YOUR side that is taking cheap and snide shots at the
process--calling it a do-over and a coup, when it's a completely
legitimate constitutional process.

Post by kodiak
Yelling your head off for five minutes and then whispering "never
mind" does not really count as a disavowal.

I speculated that it might be better to leave Davis in office.
However, it is obvious now that is not going to happen, so I'll root
for the Republican consensus candidate. Right now that looks like
Arnold, but it could be Ueberroth, and I would vastly prefer that
outcome personally.

Post by Brain Death
Let's just call this the David Brooks rule: If you hear the word
"Neocon" in a sentence uttered by a liberal, odds are good that the
rest of the sentence is a lie.

The term "NeoCon" is not an epithet the last I heard.

You guys are working on that.

Post by kodiak
On the other hand; Rush Limbaugh and a hundred other hate-talk
radio hosts have turned the very honorable term "Liberal" into a
smear. This hurts everybody -- even people who disagree with what
they think Liberalism is, because it makes it harder for them to
think about political events that come before us.
****
But this isn't why you whined about the word "neocon."
*) Ahnold NEVER held the lead.
*) Bustimante ALWAYS has held the lead.

Hate to be the one to burst your bubble, Milt, but you're wrong:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/releases/pr030811.asp
POLL ANALYSES
August 11, 2003

Schwarzenegger Leads California Gubernatorial Race
Large majority of California voters support recall of Governor Gray
Davis

by David W. Moore
GALLUP NEWS SERVICE

PRINCETON, NJ -- California voters seem poised to dump their current
governor more than three years before his term expires and replace him
with a popular Hollywood actor with virtually no political experience.
If the election were held today, a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll shows
that the recall drive would draw the support of close to two-thirds of
California's registered voters (only a majority is needed). Among a
list of the more prominent people running to replace the incumbent
Governor Gray Davis, Arnold Schwarzenegger draws the most support,
with the current lieutenant governor a distant second place.

<snip>

The poll shows that Schwarzenegger is the most popular among the
candidates mentioned in the poll, with 24% of registered voters saying
there is a "very good chance" they will vote for him, three times the
number of voters who say there is a very good chance they will vote
for Bustamante (8%) -- who comes in second place. McClintock and Simon
garner 5% and 4% support, respectively, while all other candidates get
3% or less. Support for Schwarzenegger is even higher among "probable"
voters -- at 28%.

Post by Brain Death
Hurt. The last thing Davis wants anybody thinking about is blackouts.

If I were Davis; I'd probably ignore Ahnold and I'd run against
Bush.

Great idea. I'd love to have Davis associated with the anti-Bush
kooks in Californians' minds.

Post by kodiak
The Blackout question lets Davis remind voters of the $40 billion
dollars that Bush let Enron and company steal from California
voters from 1999 to 2001.

Where did the money go? If Enron stole $40 billion, why did they go
bankrupt a few months later?

Post by kodiak
You win, though. Davis will continue to hunker down and pretend
that none of this is happening. Davis is constitutionally
incapable of taking the lead on anything.

Looks like he's going to go down battling the way you suggest, which I
personally love. The papers are noting that he termed the recall a
"right-wing power grab" in yesterday's speech.

Good. Roll that anger into a tight little ball and then swallow it
and let it fester deep inside you.

Nope. It's true. LA voters are apathetic. Orange and San Diego
Counties are not as pro-GOP as they need to be any more.

Orange County has certainly changed; not sure about San Diego.

Post by kodiak
Unemployment is high. In San Diego, the Marines haven't come
home from Iraq: This is not good for Ahnold.

They'll send in absentee ballots and I bet you they'll be
overwhelmingly in favor of Arnold.

Post by kodiak
In contrast, continuing unemployment and National nonsense from
Bush has energized the Bay Area. San Francisco voters will be
joined by Silicon Valley this time around; it's just a matter of
getting people to the polls.

If you want to make this a referendum on Bush, feel free! Let's all
agree here and now that if Davis is recalled it's a triumph for Bush
and if Davis survives it's a defeat for Bush.

Post by kodiak
Since the Statewide turnout will be light, it will only take a
few percentage point boost in turnout in a partisan county, to
pretty much determine the Statewide vote. Without LA; the Bay
Area just might squash the recall.

Well, yeah, if it weren't for those 35 million people in Southern
California, the 5 million or so in Northern California would rule the
state.

Post by kodiak
For the rest of us, killfiling is what effete whiners do when
they just can't defend themselves, and their insulting replies
are continually met with better one-liners than they can come up
with.
Killfiling has its downside. People who killfile messages never
see the worst said about their original post. .... you abandon
the field to someone you have no respect for, allowing the
reviled, killfiled poster the last word.

I have killfiled you in the past because you simply don't argue
honestly. You lie and when caught in the lie you may initially
acknowledge the mistake, but two days later you will be repeating the
lie again. I fully expect to see several posts from you in the next
few days informing people huffily that "Ahnold NEVER held the lead and
Bustimonte has ALWAYS held the lead".

BD

"Members and front organizations must continually embarrass, discredit and degrade our critics. When obstructionists become too irritating, label them as fascist, or Nazi or anti-Semitic .... The association will, after enough repetition, become "fact" in the public mind."
--Communist Party, Moscow Central Committee 1943

Eagle Eye

2003-08-18 06:56:50 UTC

Post by observer
Dems wanted to triple the car tax. It backfired and triggered the recall.

fucking nonsense, posted from someone carefully posting
anonymously from the Netherlands. Can we all say "Republican
shill?"

That's funny, coming from a guy who uses dozens of different
sockpuppet names, trying to appear as multiple people. You
really are a nut, Milt.

But you really should refrain from reading headers. The guy
is posting from Southern California via rr.com (check the
Message-ID in the attribution at the top of your own post).
His email address is through a .nu domain, which is not
the Netherlands. The domain was sold by the Polynesian
island-nation of Niue.

=====
EE

Celebrate mentem sibi conscia rationis.

Rocky and Bullwinkle

2003-08-18 08:35:56 UTC

Post by Eagle Eye

Post by observer
Dems wanted to triple the car tax. It backfired and triggered the recall.

fucking nonsense, posted from someone carefully posting
anonymously from the Netherlands. Can we all say "Republican
shill?"

That's funny, coming from a guy who uses dozens of different
sockpuppet names, trying to appear as multiple people. You
really are a nut, Milt.

Yes, this is a favorite tactic among these people. Bob Hubert once posted
the details of Operation: Cablesplice.One of the methods is for one user to
flood bulletin boards with messages, often using multiple identities.

Foxtrot

2003-08-18 07:03:42 UTC

Post by observer
Dems wanted to triple the car tax. It backfired and triggered the recall.

fucking nonsense, posted from someone carefully posting
anonymously from the Netherlands. Can we all say "Republican
shill?"

I live in California. He's right. Tripling the car tax wasn't
the only thing that led to the recall, but it was a major
factor.

Post by the fucking truth
What a bunch of effete NeoCon goofballs.
Twenty yards of Recall silliness posted here going back a month,
and theres' not three messages here that called a single shot
correctly.
You NeoCon turkeys from H0mi and Brain Death and Dana and foxtrot
and tasmanian whatever -- to some of you so-called brighter

Tazmanian Weasel is Schlepp, and he's another one
like you, Fucking Troll, whining about what an innocent
victim Davis is.

Post by the fucking truth
There was no popular groundswell of support for a Recall. None.
The recall had nothing to do with Davis' handling of anything.

Then explain why Davis' approval rating is so dismally
low that it matches Nixon's shortly before he resigned.

Post by the fucking truth
This Recall happened because just ONE rich partisan Conservative
Republican in San Diego (darryl Issa) wanted to run for Governor
in October, before he had to file to run for his House seat in
March. He BOUGHT the signatures. It cost him $2 million dollars.

People wouldn't have signed it if they didn't want Davis
out. This is the first time in the history of the 80+ year old
recall law that the petitions were certified--and they got
nearly twice as many as needed.

Why don't you quit blaming people like Issa, and admit
that Davis sucks, and he angered the voters?

Post by the fucking truth
PS: Uberroth would actually make a good Governor.
That's who you should be rooting for if you gave a damn.

Actually, Uberroth probably wouldn't be too bad. He did
a great job with the 1984 Olympics in LA. Amazingly,
freeway traffic and other problems went *down* during the
Olympics. But IIRC there was a baseball strike when he
was commissioner, and that would be a negative for him.

Rocky and Bullwinkle

2003-08-18 08:38:35 UTC

Post by the fucking truth
There was no popular groundswell of support for a Recall. None.
The recall had nothing to do with Davis' handling of anything.

And there weren't any mass protests against the war for Greater Israel,
right? These protestors were the ones who signed those recall petitions. You
are obviously a stupid punk shilling for your robber barons masters.

EXCERPT FROM TOP SECRET "OPERATION CABLESPLICE," THAT IS BEING CIRCULATED
TO TOP UN AND GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS.

B. Electronic/Computer Systems: Electronic computer systems, bulletin
boards, and information superhighway in general is an area of considerable
importance to efforts to combat the activities of The Disrupter Movement.
The ability of opponents to utilize computer bulletin boards to pass
information and educate
people must be met with an active program of disinformation and attack.

1. One means of countering the effectiveness of such opposition efforts is
the simple expedient of overloading their bulletin boards. A single operator
with one
computer can set a program in motion that will send out thousands of
messages. The sheer volume of such messages is more then the content. Most
people will give up rather then read through hundreds and thousands of
messages.

2. A second means of countering the opposition's use of computer technology
is through the careful placing of disinformation agents. Such agents can
take two forms:

a. Agents may be placed who will simply argue against the opposition, using
delaying and confusing tactics such as constantly demanding references and
"proof" of allegations, referring to obscure and difficult to find documents
as evidence that the opposition is wrong, and generally forcing the
opposition to waste
tremendous amounts of time simply defending itself from spurious and
irrelevant attacks.

Other

b. Other agents have been placed with a more subtle purpose mind. Such
agents would take on the persons WA attitudes of members of The Disrupters
Movement, but would present the opposition case in ways that will ultimately
discredit them. The necessary effort to correct. the messages posted by
these agents, and the resulting appearance of disarray within their camp
should present considerable opportunities for further assaultson The
Disrupters Movement.

3. In cases of computer networks where it is highly imperative that the
efforts of The Disrupters be neutralized, coordinated assaults can be
arranged using
aliases and multiple membership ID's to present a wide array of negative and
meddlesome messages.

Le Grim Reaper

2003-08-18 20:30:41 UTC

Post by observer
Dems wanted to triple the car tax. It backfired and triggered the recall.

fucking nonsense, posted from someone carefully posting
anonymously from the Netherlands. Can we all say "Republican
shill?"

Can you say California Constitution? I thought you couldn't.

-
Mange mared du chien pour Paris.

Le Grim Reaper

2003-08-19 22:24:22 UTC

Post by observer
Dems wanted to triple the car tax. It backfired and triggered the recall.

fucking nonsense, posted from someone carefully posting
anonymously from the Netherlands. Can we all say "Republican
shill?"

You can say California Constitution, but that word Constitution throws
of a lot of Democrats.

-
Mange mared du chien pour Paris.

Foxtrot

2003-08-15 16:13:00 UTC

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Gray matters
Just when you thought it was safe to go back in a voting booth, it's
back, it's nasty and it's in California.
I'm not talking about the Terminator. It's worse. I'm talking about
the chad - that tiny piece of cardboard on the back of punch- card
ballots that triggered a constitutional meltdown in Florida in 2000.

LOL, Dems are making one last desperate attempt to
delegitimize Davis' ousting from the governorship! It's kinda
hard for them to claim the recall is part of the VRWC when
58% of the voters want him out.

http://www.foxnews.com.edgesuite.net/story/0,2933,94805,00.html

Davis is in BIG trouble, CA Dems give him two weeks or
less. If he can't improve his poll numbers, Dems are going
to abandon him and get behind Bustamante.

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Whether the recall vote is postponed or not, there would be a question
mark over the legitimacy of the new governor.

No, there will NOT be a question over his legitimacy.

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
There is general
agreement that Davis has not been a great success, but he was elected
by 3.5 million Californians (nearly 50% of the vote) only nine months
ago.

That was before we learned he LIED about the deficit and
imposed an ILLEGAL tripling of the car registration fees.

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
In essence, rightwing Republicans are deploying the Californian recall
in the same way they used impeachment against Bill Clinton, as a means
of getting rid of an incumbent they disliked without having to wait
for a regular election.

Bitch, bitch, bitch. Dems didn't hold elections too sacred
to attack Reagan. They would have loved to have him tossed
out of office.

The impeachment against BJ and the recall against Davis
are perfectly legal avenues. If they hadn't sucked so bad,
their opponents wouldn't have been able to use those
avenues. So quit feeling sorry for yourselves Dems, you
sound like spoiled children.

Brain Death

2003-08-15 17:18:34 UTC

LOL, Dems are making one last desperate attempt to
delegitimize Davis' ousting from the governorship! It's kinda
hard for them to claim the recall is part of the VRWC when
58% of the voters want him out.
http://www.foxnews.com.edgesuite.net/story/0,2933,94805,00.html
Davis is in BIG trouble, CA Dems give him two weeks or
less. If he can't improve his poll numbers, Dems are going
to abandon him and get behind Bustamante.

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Whether the recall vote is postponed or not, there would be a question
mark over the legitimacy of the new governor.

No, there will NOT be a question over his legitimacy.

As a practical matter there will be unless Arnold wins by something at
least approaching a majority (not a plurality). If Davis gets 40%
voting to retain him, and Arnold gets 20% and wins the governorship,
you don't think he will be perceived as weak and illegitimate? The
Democrats will howl that he got half the vote that Davis did, and IMHO
will have a reasonable argument (for once). The irony is that this
does not apply if Bustamante wins under the same circumstances,
because then it will be perceived as an orderly transition of power,
with the result the same as if Davis had died or been impeached.

BD

"Members and front organizations must continually embarrass, discredit and degrade our critics. When obstructionists become too irritating, label them as fascist, or Nazi or anti-Semitic .... The association will, after enough repetition, become "fact" in the public mind."
--Communist Party, Moscow Central Committee 1943

Foxtrot

2003-08-15 17:45:33 UTC

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Whether the recall vote is postponed or not, there would be a question
mark over the legitimacy of the new governor.

No, there will NOT be a question over his legitimacy.

The dictionary defines legitimate as being in compliance with
the law. And the courts have found the recall to be in compliance
with the law.

Dems have no right to complain. They gave us a thoroughly
incompetent governor. And when a groundswell of voters
began angrily demanding his removal, the party ignored them,
and failed to offer any attractive candidates. This is just sour
grapes from them. They blew it, and deserve their lumps. If
they had any brains, they'd admit their mistakes and try to
learn from them, instead of blaming them on others.

At the moment, 58% of the voters want Davis out. NO WAY
can they claim his removal is illegitimate.

qwerty

2003-08-15 20:34:52 UTC

Post by Foxtrot
Dems have no right to complain. They gave us a thoroughly
incompetent governor.

Sorry, but Davis was freely elected not that many months ago. The People of
California elected Davis.

Post by Foxtrot
And when a groundswell of voters
began angrily demanding his removal, the party ignored them,
and failed to offer any attractive candidates.

What? We just had an election a few months ago.

Post by Foxtrot
This is just sour
grapes from them. They blew it, and deserve their lumps. If
they had any brains, they'd admit their mistakes and try to
learn from them, instead of blaming them on others.

The recall was going nowhere until Issa pumped in $1.7 million of his own
money to pay people to collect signatures.

Post by Foxtrot
At the moment, 58% of the voters want Davis out. NO WAY
can they claim his removal is illegitimate.

I thought Republicans didn't believe in do-over elections? Well that's what
they were saying in 2000!

--
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you
need to concentrate on."

- G. W. Bush

Brain Death

2003-08-15 21:49:24 UTC

Post by qwerty
I thought Republicans didn't believe in do-over elections? Well that's what
they were saying in 2000!

There is no provision for one in the US Constitution, whereas there is
one in California's constitution.

BD

"Members and front organizations must continually embarrass, discredit and degrade our critics. When obstructionists become too irritating, label them as fascist, or Nazi or anti-Semitic .... The association will, after enough repetition, become "fact" in the public mind."
--Communist Party, Moscow Central Committee 1943

qwerty

2003-08-15 22:24:57 UTC

Post by qwerty
I thought Republicans didn't believe in do-over elections? Well that's what
they were saying in 2000!

There is no provision for one in the US Constitution, whereas there is
one in California's constitution.

Please point out where in the US Constitution it prohibits a State from
selecting it's electors in a manner it so chooses, or "re-chooses"?

Brain Death

2003-08-15 23:23:42 UTC

Post by qwerty
I thought Republicans didn't believe in do-over elections? Well that's

what

Post by qwerty
they were saying in 2000!

There is no provision for one in the US Constitution, whereas there is
one in California's constitution.

Please point out where in the US Constitution it prohibits a State from
selecting it's electors in a manner it so chooses, or "re-chooses"?

Article. II.
Section. 1.

Clause 2: Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature
thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of
Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the
Congress....

The Florida legislature had directed how the electors were to be
chosen. The SCoFla attempted to change the rules, which they had NO
power to do under the constitution, and so they were bitch-slapped.

BD

"Members and front organizations must continually embarrass, discredit and degrade our critics. When obstructionists become too irritating, label them as fascist, or Nazi or anti-Semitic .... The association will, after enough repetition, become "fact" in the public mind."
--Communist Party, Moscow Central Committee 1943

qwerty

2003-08-16 01:24:20 UTC

Post by qwerty
I thought Republicans didn't believe in do-over elections? Well that's

what

Post by qwerty
they were saying in 2000!

There is no provision for one in the US Constitution, whereas there is
one in California's constitution.

Please point out where in the US Constitution it prohibits a State from
selecting it's electors in a manner it so chooses, or "re-chooses"?

Sorry, but there is NOTHING there that would have prevented the State from
doing a "do-over" election to choose those electors if they had decided to
do such. So, there is no provision in the US Constitution preventing a
State from doing a "do-over" election. However, the Republicans kept
repeating their mantra of being against "do-over" elections, but now
suddenly they're all FOR "do-over" elections. So, just like I said, I
thought Republicans didn't believe in "do-over" elections. I guess that was
then and this is now!

Brain Death

2003-08-16 07:58:47 UTC

Post by qwerty
I thought Republicans didn't believe in do-over elections? Well

that's

Post by qwerty
what

Post by qwerty
they were saying in 2000!

There is no provision for one in the US Constitution, whereas there is
one in California's constitution.

Please point out where in the US Constitution it prohibits a State from
selecting it's electors in a manner it so chooses, or "re-chooses"?

Of course the only thing stopping a "do-over" election was the
legislature of the State of Florida. Gripe as much as you want, but
the recall election in California is not a "do-over". For one thing,
a "do-over" would involve Gray Davis and Bill Simon and nobody else
who was not on the ballot (i.e., Camejo would be on, Arianna and
Arnold would be off).

BD

"Members and front organizations must continually embarrass, discredit and degrade our critics. When obstructionists become too irritating, label them as fascist, or Nazi or anti-Semitic .... The association will, after enough repetition, become "fact" in the public mind."
--Communist Party, Moscow Central Committee 1943

qwerty

2003-08-16 16:20:13 UTC

Post by qwerty
I thought Republicans didn't believe in do-over elections? Well

that's

Post by qwerty
what

Post by qwerty
they were saying in 2000!

There is no provision for one in the US Constitution, whereas there is
one in California's constitution.

Please point out where in the US Constitution it prohibits a State from
selecting it's electors in a manner it so chooses, or "re-chooses"?

Of course the only thing stopping a "do-over" election was the
legislature of the State of Florida.

Exactly, there's nothing unconstitutional about it.

Post by Brain Death
Gripe as much as you want, but
the recall election in California is not a "do-over". For one thing,
a "do-over" would involve Gray Davis and Bill Simon and nobody else
who was not on the ballot (i.e., Camejo would be on, Arianna and
Arnold would be off).

Sure it's a do-over, just without those silly primaries that always elminate
such candidates as Riordian & Schwarzenegger.

Michael Ejercito

2003-08-16 21:27:21 UTC

Post by qwerty
I thought Republicans didn't believe in do-over elections? Well

that's
what

Post by qwerty
they were saying in 2000!

There is no provision for one in the US Constitution, whereas there

Post by Brain Death
one in California's constitution.

Please point out where in the US Constitution it prohibits a State

from

Post by qwerty
selecting it's electors in a manner it so chooses, or "re-chooses"?

Sorry, but there is NOTHING there that would have prevented the State

from

Post by qwerty
doing a "do-over" election to choose those electors if they had decided

Post by qwerty
do such. So, there is no provision in the US Constitution preventing a
State from doing a "do-over" election. However, the Republicans kept
repeating their mantra of being against "do-over" elections, but now
suddenly they're all FOR "do-over" elections. So, just like I said, I
thought Republicans didn't believe in "do-over" elections. I guess that

was

Post by qwerty
then and this is now!

Of course the only thing stopping a "do-over" election was the
legislature of the State of Florida.

Exactly, there's nothing unconstitutional about it.

You are right.
The legislature, not the courts, determine whether or not there is a do-over.

Michael

Foxtrot

2003-08-16 20:01:40 UTC

Post by Foxtrot
Dems have no right to complain. They gave us a thoroughly
incompetent governor.

Sorry, but Davis was freely elected not that many months ago. The People of
California elected Davis.

Post by Foxtrot
And when a groundswell of voters
began angrily demanding his removal, the party ignored them,
and failed to offer any attractive candidates.

What? We just had an election a few months ago.

He hid about $10B of the deficit until just after the
election. And he illegally tripled the car registration fees
after the election. TRIPLED. That would be an additional
$304 for me to get my stickers this year (fortunately I
renewed mine before the new rates took effect). We found
out about that annual $304 screw job after the election.

You're blind if you don't see how he got himself into this
jam.

The recall was going nowhere until Issa pumped in $1.7 million of his own
money to pay people to collect signatures.

People wouldn't have signed it if he didn't suck.

Post by Foxtrot
At the moment, 58% of the voters want Davis out. NO WAY
can they claim his removal is illegitimate.

I thought Republicans didn't believe in do-over elections? Well that's what
they were saying in 2000!

You obviously don't distinguish between what is legal
and what is illegal. The recall is perfectly legal. Gore tried
to steal the election by violating the equal protection
clause. Seven Supreme Court justices said so.

Foxtrot

2003-08-17 01:20:17 UTC

Do you deny that almost immediately after the 2002
election, he revealed a mysterious $10B increase in
the deficit?

Do you deny that immediately after the 2002 election, Putsch announced
that the deficit was going to be $75 billion, instead of the $50
billion surplus expected? (Oh, and the deficit is now up over $460
billion).

Bush wasn't running for reelection in 2002. He revealed the
deficit increase BEFORE he's up for reelection in 2004. Davis
reported it AFTER he was reelected.

The Fair and Balanced Weasel

2003-08-17 03:09:07 UTC

Do you deny that almost immediately after the 2002
election, he revealed a mysterious $10B increase in
the deficit?

Bush wasn't running for reelection in 2002. He revealed the
deficit increase BEFORE he's up for reelection in 2004. Davis
reported it AFTER he was reelected.

Nice duck and weave. There was still an election in 2002, Republican
seats were at stake, and Putsch lied to the American people about the
effects of his tax cut.

Impeachments. Court appointments. Gerrymanderings. Recalls. Plane crashes.
Don't Republicans believe in honest elections any more?

Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com

qwerty

2003-08-17 15:42:23 UTC

Post by Foxtrot
He hid about $10B of the deficit until just after the
election.

Proof?

Do you deny that almost immediately after the 2002
election, he revealed a mysterious $10B increase in
the deficit?

Do you have proof that Davis deliberately concealed this information?

Post by Foxtrot
And he illegally tripled the car registration fees
after the election. TRIPLED.

Proof that it was illegal.

Tax increases in California require a two thirds vote in
the legislature, which he didn't have. The Howard Jarvis
Taxpayers Association filed a lawsuit against it.
http://www.hjta.org/cartaxlawsuit.htm

And just how has that lawsuit been decided? The Jarvis Taxpayers
Association is always suing.

Post by Foxtrot
That would be an additional
$304 for me to get my stickers this year (fortunately I
renewed mine before the new rates took effect). We found
out about that annual $304 screw job after the election.
You're blind if you don't see how he got himself into this
jam.

What crime has he committed to warrent a recall?

Gross incompetence is the grounds for the recall, not
criminal behavior.

Proof? I asked for a specfic crime, not a personal opinion.

Post by Foxtrot
You obviously don't distinguish between what is legal
and what is illegal. The recall is perfectly legal.

So is asking for a recount in Florida.

There was a mandatory recount the day after the election.
Bush won that one too.

There was nothing ilegal about Gore asking for the recount that he
requested.

Gore's fatal mistake was requesting a hand recount only
in four heavily Dem counties. That poisoned the entire
process.

Sorry, but that too was perfectly legal.

Foxtrot

2003-08-17 22:39:55 UTC

Do you deny that almost immediately after the 2002
election, he revealed a mysterious $10B increase in
the deficit?

Do you have proof that Davis deliberately concealed this information?

No. Congratulations, he's OJ-style innocent. That's why,
like OJ, other means are being used to nail him. He's being
recalled instead of criminally prosecuted.

And just how has that lawsuit been decided? The Jarvis Taxpayers
Association is always suing.

The case is still pending. It was only filed a couple weeks
ago.

What crime has he committed to warrent a recall?

Gross incompetence is the grounds for the recall, not
criminal behavior.

Proof? I asked for a specfic crime, not a personal opinion.

Proof of what? I don't believe conviction of specific crimes is
prerequisite to being recalled. If you claim it is, then post the
statute that says so.

There was a mandatory recount the day after the election.
Bush won that one too.

There was nothing ilegal about Gore asking for the recount that he
requested.

USSC Bush v Gore rejected it 7-2.

Foxtrot

2003-08-18 00:17:03 UTC

Post by qwerty
Do you have proof that Davis deliberately concealed this information?

No. Congratulations, he's OJ-style innocent. That's why,
like OJ, other means are being used to nail him. He's being
recalled instead of criminally prosecuted.

LOL, nice "Red Herring" bring up OJ. I AGAIN ask what CREDIBLE evidence can
you cite that Davis deliberately concealed this information!

The timing of the disclosure, and the fact that he's a sleazy
politician who wants to keep info from the public. If you
want to ignore those things, and choose to be duped by
Davis, go right ahead. But the vast majority of Californians
are *not* duped by him, and believe that he's a skunk who
isn't fit for office.

Post by Foxtrot
Proof of what? I don't believe conviction of specific crimes is
prerequisite to being recalled. If you claim it is, then post the
statute that says so.

I never said that, but don't you think that a Governor should be at least
guilty of serious crime before being recalled?

Nope. Being incompetent and doing enormous damage to
the state are perfectly valid reasons to boot him from office.
It's not like he's getting executed or going to prison for
goodness sakes, he's just being fired.

qwerty

2003-08-18 00:34:04 UTC

Post by qwerty
Do you have proof that Davis deliberately concealed this information?

No. Congratulations, he's OJ-style innocent. That's why,
like OJ, other means are being used to nail him. He's being
recalled instead of criminally prosecuted.

LOL, nice "Red Herring" bring up OJ. I AGAIN ask what CREDIBLE evidence can
you cite that Davis deliberately concealed this information!

The timing of the disclosure, and the fact that he's a sleazy
politician who wants to keep info from the public.

I again ask: Please cite your PROOF.

Post by Foxtrot
If you
want to ignore those things, and choose to be duped by
Davis, go right ahead.

If want to make unsubstantiated allegations then please be prepared to back
them up with credible proof.

Post by Foxtrot
But the vast majority of Californians
are *not* duped by him, and believe that he's a skunk who
isn't fit for office.

I again ask: Please cite your PROOF of Davis deliberately withholding this
information.

Post by Foxtrot
Proof of what? I don't believe conviction of specific crimes is
prerequisite to being recalled. If you claim it is, then post the
statute that says so.

I never said that, but don't you think that a Governor should be at least
guilty of serious crime before being recalled?

Nope. Being incompetent and doing enormous damage to
the state are perfectly valid reasons to boot him from office.

Enormous damage?

Post by Foxtrot
It's not like he's getting executed or going to prison for
goodness sakes, he's just being fired.

I thought we just made that decision in the last election! You know just 9
months ago.

Foxtrot

2003-08-18 01:06:11 UTC

Post by Foxtrot
The timing of the disclosure, and the fact that he's a sleazy
politician who wants to keep info from the public.

I again ask: Please cite your PROOF.

Post by Foxtrot
If you
want to ignore those things, and choose to be duped by
Davis, go right ahead.

If want to make unsubstantiated allegations then please be prepared to back
them up with credible proof.

Post by Foxtrot
But the vast majority of Californians
are *not* duped by him, and believe that he's a skunk who
isn't fit for office.

I again ask: Please cite your PROOF of Davis deliberately withholding this
information.

Remember when I mentioned how fishy the timing of the
disclosure was? I made it perfectly clear that I was just
making an observation. Period. Why are you too damned
obstinate to accept that?

Post by Foxtrot
Nope. Being incompetent and doing enormous damage to
the state are perfectly valid reasons to boot him from office.

Enormous damage?

Yes, like businesses and jobs leaving the state.

Post by Foxtrot
It's not like he's getting executed or going to prison for
goodness sakes, he's just being fired.

I thought we just made that decision in the last election! You know just 9
months ago.

We've already been through this, remember? That was
before he tripled the car tax and lied about the deficit
(Note: this was a personal observation, so spare me the
tiresome "prove it nyah nyah nyah" baloney).

You need to have things repeated many times before they
sink in, don't you?

Foxtrot

2003-08-18 05:16:19 UTC

Post by Foxtrot
Remember when I mentioned how fishy the timing of the
disclosure was? I made it perfectly clear that I was just
making an observation. Period. Why are you too damned
obstinate to accept that?

"He hid about $10B of the deficit until just after the election."
No mention of "fishy" or but an outright accusation. All I asked for was
PROOF. It's funny how such requests get you Conservatives\Republicans
panties all in a twist!

I said he was OJ-style innocent. Apparently you don't
know what that means so I'll tell you. It means that he's
obviously guilty, everybody knows it, but it can't be
proven in court.

Now go back and re-read my previous paragraph five or
six times. Maybe that'll be enough for you to finally get
the message. Heh heh

Post by Foxtrot
Yes, like businesses and jobs leaving the state.

LOL, yet again I ask for PROOF that businesses are leaving California in any
abnormal or significant rate.

California companies are now forced to provide PAID
personal leave, and workers comp costs have shot up
because Dems made the laws more lawyer-friendly.

Too bad if you lack the instinct to see that such business-
hostile government would drive jobs away. I'm not
interested in your tiresome demands that it be scientifically
proven to be Davis' fault. If you refuse to accept the
obvious fact that he's inept, you're in that group of 22% of
the public who thinks Davis is doing a good job.

Post by Foxtrot
You need to have things repeated many times before they
sink in, don't you?

When you make false & unsubstantiated claims then you're asking to be shown
up as an idiot.

No, you look like a constipated uptight twit for demanding
irrefutable proof to what are obvious observations and
generalizations.

qwerty

2003-08-19 20:08:00 UTC

Post by Foxtrot
I said he was OJ-style innocent. Apparently you don't
know what that means so I'll tell you. It means that he's
obviously guilty, everybody knows it, but it can't be
proven in court.

Only would a Conservative say someone is "Obviously" Guilty without
presenting a shred of credible proof. OJ is still a "Red Herring".

Only would a liberal weasel deny that OJ is guilty. The same
liberal weasels who accept answers like "depends on what
your definition of 'is' is".

Actually, the definition of "Guilty" in a court of Law is guilt beyound all
reasonable doubt. OJ is still a "Red Herring".

Post by Foxtrot
California companies are now forced to provide PAID
personal leave, and workers comp costs have shot up
because Dems made the laws more lawyer-friendly.

Please provide PROOF that businesses have been driven away are leaving
California in any abnormal or significant rate.

Sigh, at first I wasn't going to bother doing a web search,
knowing how you always nitpick everything, and will attack
whatever I post.

It's YOUR responsibility to back up YOUR claims.

But I decided what the hell, I've got
broadband, I'll find some info for Quirky--this time. Here's
some excerpts from a good piece I found. But don't bother
with your usual tiresome tactic of demanding more and more
unnecessary proof. I've made my point and I'm satisfied with
it.
http://www.cmta.net/oped/090602middle_class_wealth.php

Not a single credible fact there to back up your claim that businesses have
been driven away and are leaving California in any abnormal or significant
rate.

Here's one you ought to read:

"True or false: More businesses leaving state than ever before"

"ANSWER: IT'S HARD TO FIND DATA TO PROVE OR DISPROVE "

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/6506305.htm

A twit could also be somebody who's too partisan and stubborn
to accept obvious statements.

A twit is someone who accepts silly theories without any credible evidence.

--
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you
need to concentrate on."

- G. W. Bush

Foxtrot

2003-08-20 07:37:15 UTC

http://www.cmta.net/oped/090602middle_class_wealth.php

Not a single credible fact there to back up your claim that businesses have
been driven away and are leaving California in any abnormal or significant
rate.

Simple question. Do you think having a tax burden significantly
above the national average costs jobs?

BTW today Bustamante said he's going to raise taxes $8B if
elected. You'd never admit it, but it will cost even more jobs.

The Fair and Balanced Weasel

2003-08-20 15:25:16 UTC

http://www.cmta.net/oped/090602middle_class_wealth.php

Not a single credible fact there to back up your claim that businesses have
been driven away and are leaving California in any abnormal or significant
rate.

Simple question. Do you think having a tax burden significantly
above the national average costs jobs?
BTW today Bustamante said he's going to raise taxes $8B if
elected. You'd never admit it, but it will cost even more jobs.

Having the state default would cost even more jobs.

Someday you right wingers are going to have to realize that societies
have expenses.

Impeachments. Court appointments. Gerrymanderings. Recalls. Plane crashes.
Don't Republicans believe in honest elections any more?

Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com

Foxtrot

2003-08-20 16:03:00 UTC

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Someday you right wingers are going to have to realize that societies
have expenses.

LOL... IOW, Zepp wants some of the some other folks money because he
knows he's not bright enough to earn it on his own.

What? You mean he's not independently wealthy from selling
Zepp's Commentaries? Shocking!

Zepp, No Weasels in the Bush

2003-08-20 19:49:59 UTC

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Someday you right wingers are going to have to realize that societies
have expenses.

LOL... IOW, Zepp wants some of the some other folks money because he
knows he's not bright enough to earn it on his own.

What? You mean he's not independently wealthy from selling
Zepp's Commentaries? Shocking!

What have you sold lately, chuckles?

No point in asking "Stevie" Ah he has to offer are lies, and he can't
even give those away.

*******************
"But always remember, my friend: when politicians begin demanding patriotism of the people of a country, fascism has arrived."
-- Shaffik, in Ken Finkleman's "More Tears"

To subscribe to Zepp's News http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zepps_News/join
For essays ONLY, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/***@yahoogroups.com/join
For my fiction, http://www.finestplanet.com/~zepp/

unknown

2003-08-24 17:08:52 UTC

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:49:59 -0700, "Zepp, No Weasels in the Bush"

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Someday you right wingers are going to have to realize that societies
have expenses.

LOL... IOW, Zepp wants some of the some other folks money because he
knows he's not bright enough to earn it on his own.

What? You mean he's not independently wealthy from selling
Zepp's Commentaries? Shocking!

What have you sold lately, chuckles?
No point in asking "Stevie" Ah he has to offer are lies, and he can't
even give those away.

Read it more carefully. He is accusing you of lying.

Once you said you were a legal alien, another time you said you could
vote.

One of those statements must be a lie.

Regards, Harold (Capitalist Pig)
----------
"Odd, but there was no debt ceiling in the 50's, or 60's or 70's, or
most of the 80's. I'm not saying there wasn't one in the 40's--there
may well have been. But to my certain knowledge it was gone by the
60's. Must not have worked out so well."
----Zepp, the weasel, 6/20/1997

The Fair and Balanced Weasel

2003-08-24 18:40:20 UTC

Post by unknown
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:49:59 -0700, "Zepp, No Weasels in the Bush"

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Someday you right wingers are going to have to realize that societies
have expenses.

LOL... IOW, Zepp wants some of the some other folks money because he
knows he's not bright enough to earn it on his own.

What? You mean he's not independently wealthy from selling
Zepp's Commentaries? Shocking!

What have you sold lately, chuckles?
No point in asking "Stevie" Ah he has to offer are lies, and he can't
even give those away.

Read it more carefully. He is accusing you of lying.

Oh, yeah, he does that.

Post by unknown
Once you said you were a legal alien, another time you said you could
vote.

I -am- a legal alien, moron. And I never said I could vote. The
quote he likes to present is taken from a post made some seven years
ago advising someone how to approach a matter with their congressman.

Post by unknown
One of those statements must be a lie.

Now, if I said you were honest, that would be a lie.

Post by unknown
Regards, Harold (Capitalist Pig)
----------
"Odd, but there was no debt ceiling in the 50's, or 60's or 70's, or
most of the 80's. I'm not saying there wasn't one in the 40's--there
may well have been. But to my certain knowledge it was gone by the
60's. Must not have worked out so well."
----Zepp, the weasel, 6/20/1997

Impeachments. Court appointments. Gerrymanderings. Recalls. Plane crashes.
Don't Republicans believe in honest elections any more?

Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com

unknown

2003-08-24 20:22:23 UTC

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:40:20 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel
[deleted]

Post by unknown
Read it more carefully. He is accusing you of lying.

Oh, yeah, he does that.

Post by unknown
Once you said you were a legal alien, another time you said you could
vote.

I -am- a legal alien, moron. And I never said I could vote.

"I have the right to vote against him in the next
election." --Zepp Jamieson, 1996

http://www.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=4l6trj%24iq4%40news.snowcrest.net

I invite everyone to read it, at the link above.

In the same post, you also write "If I'm ever put in a position of
having to choose between betraying my oath to the Constitution and
pissing on the American flag, I hope I will have the courage and
honesty to piss on the flag."

Since you are a Canadian citizen, does Canada have a Constitution for
you betray?

Regards, Harold (Capitalist Pig)
----
"Neither the United States of America nor the world community
of nations can tolerate deliberate deception and offensive
threats on the part of any nation, large or small. We no
longer live in a world where only the actual firing of
weapons represents a sufficient challenge to a nation's
security"
-- President John F. Kennedy

Steve Canyon

2003-08-25 01:43:38 UTC

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:50:22 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

Post by unknown
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:40:20 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel
[deleted]

Post by unknown
Read it more carefully. He is accusing you of lying.

Oh, yeah, he does that.

Post by unknown
Once you said you were a legal alien, another time you said you could
vote.

I -am- a legal alien, moron. And I never said I could vote.

By all means, do so. Don't let cowardly little harold bluff you into
thinking he isn't taking it out of context.

ROTFLOL... Every time Zepp get's caught saying something he's
ashamed of he claims it's being taken out of context, but this time
he's been caught lying.

"I have the right to vote against him in the next
election." --Zepp Jamieson, 1996
http://www.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=4l6trj%24iq4%40news.snowcrest.net

"Legal resident alien Zepp Jamieson, a Canadian who has lived
in the United States for more than 30 years, said his status
changed dramatically with the Patriot Act."
http://www.mtshastanews.com/archives/index.inn?loc=detail&doc=/2003/June/04-1695-news11.txt

Legal resident aliens cannot vote so why does Zepp need to pretend that he is a citizen?

Is this a clue?

"Suppose something happened here, and you had to scram to another
country in a hurry to save your ass. Would you renounce your American
citizenship after a few years?" --Zepp Jamieson 1997
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=3372a9c3.258180564%40news.snowcrest.net

unknown

2003-08-26 00:54:18 UTC

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:50:22 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

Post by unknown
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:40:20 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel
[deleted]

Post by unknown
Read it more carefully. He is accusing you of lying.

Oh, yeah, he does that.

Post by unknown
Once you said you were a legal alien, another time you said you could
vote.

I -am- a legal alien, moron. And I never said I could vote.

By all means, do so. Don't let cowardly little harold bluff you into
thinking he isn't taking it out of context.

Please, read it. I hope all the readers will (both of them). But
then, they already know you were a liar.

Like your assertion that, "Odd, but there was no debt ceiling in the
50's, or 60's or 70's, or most of the 80's. I'm not saying there
wasn't one in the 40's--there may well have been. But to my certain
knowledge it was gone by the 60's. Must not have worked out so well."

Of course, even the dumbist Dim knows you lied about that, there was a
debt ceiling for every year you assert there was not. As, indeed, you
now lie.

Is there a moral lesson for you, Zepp (I know the concept of "moral"
is very hard for you to grasp)?

Don't lie on Usenet, because your lies never go away, they are always
there, and we will be very happy to remind you of all your lies.

Regards, Harold
-----
"...each individual has certain basic rights that are neither
conferred by nor derived from the state. To discover where they
came from it is necessary to move back behind the dim mist of
eternity, for they are God-given."
--- M.L. King, Lincoln University, 1961

Steve Canyon

2003-08-25 01:43:28 UTC

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:40:20 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

Post by unknown
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:49:59 -0700, "Zepp, No Weasels in the Bush"

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Someday you right wingers are going to have to realize that societies
have expenses.

LOL... IOW, Zepp wants some of the some other folks money because he
knows he's not bright enough to earn it on his own.

What? You mean he's not independently wealthy from selling
Zepp's Commentaries? Shocking!

What have you sold lately, chuckles?
No point in asking "Stevie" Ah he has to offer are lies, and he can't
even give those away.

Read it more carefully. He is accusing you of lying.

Oh, yeah, he does that.

Post by unknown
Once you said you were a legal alien, another time you said you could
vote.

LOL, nice try Zepp, but you claimed that you had a right to vote and a
legal alien can NOT vote. You were pretending to be a citizen,
Jamieson and you were lying.

"I have the right to vote against him in the next
election." --Zepp Jamieson, 1996
http://www.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=4l6trj%24iq4%40news.snowcrest.net

"Legal resident alien Zepp Jamieson, a Canadian who has lived
in the United States for more than 30 years, said his status
changed dramatically with the Patriot Act."
http://www.mtshastanews.com/archives/index.inn?loc=detail&doc=/2003/June/04-1695-news11.txt

Legal resident aliens cannot vote so why does Zepp need to pretend that he is a citizen?

Is this a clue?

"Suppose something happened here, and you had to scram to another
country in a hurry to save your ass. Would you renounce your American
citizenship after a few years?" --Zepp Jamieson 1997
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=3372a9c3.258180564%40news.snowcrest.net

Mark Neglay

2003-08-25 19:27:42 UTC

Post by unknown
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:49:59 -0700, "Zepp, No Weasels in the Bush"

Impeachments.

...suborning Perjury, perjuring

Funny. I don't see any convictions there.

Nixon was never convicted either.

Not getting convicted is not the same thing as being proven innocent.
Here in the US (I know things may be different in your native country)
the courts can only find someone guilty or not guilty in the eyes of
the law. Do you know the difference between "not-guilty" and
"innocent" or is this conversation getting too confusing?

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Court appointments.

...adding meaningless points on to an already meaningless list

Is that supposed to be coherant?

Sure. You were bitching about "court appointments" supposedly
undermining the Democratic process. Since "court appointments"
couldn't undermine the Democratic process, this was a meaningless
addition to your list.

Several words where are identical to
ones found in English,

"Several words where are identical..."

Is that supposed to mean something?

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Gerrymanderings.

...adding meaningless points on to an already meaningless list

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Recalls.

...pissing off an entire state so much that they vote for a recal

3% of the population is "an entire state"?

You can only get so many signatures if there are enough angry people.
It's kind of like a lesson in Marketing. For every customer
complaint, there are 9 other customers who said nothing and took their
business elsewhere.

As you can see, almost 20 times as many people actually want Davis
gone:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/15/davis.recall.ap/

See how that works? Did I use too many large words?

...whining that when the voters exercise their right to vote in a
recal election, they are somehow undermining the electoral process

Just keep doing it until you get the result you want, right?

Those damn citizens exercising their rights to vote! (Makes you
jealous doesn't it?) They are undermining the Democratic process! We
need to tell them they cannot vote so that we can preserve Democracy!

Moron.

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Plane crashes.

...making up conspiracy theories to add even more to an already
meaningless list

Gosh, I haven't made up any conspiracy theories, chuckles.

According to you, Republicans use plane crashes to undermine the
electoral process. This is called a conspiracy theory.

Maybe you
should wait until someone actually does before you start screaming
about what a fucking victim you are.

Victim? Just making shit up now? Nevermind, you were doing that
before.

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Don't Republicans believe in honest elections any more?

Do liberal have a point anymore?

Yeah. We stand for America.

Nice platitude. That and $0.50 will get you a cup of coffee.

Right wingers want to dismantle freedom
and democracy.

Judging by your examples, it's pretty obvious you are just 'saying
anything'. Don't forget that Republicans want to kill your first born
as well. Make sure to add that to the list.

Not dead, in jail,...

The first two are certainly true. Liberals certainly don't like to
punish criminals.

...or a slave? Thank a liberal!

Yes, and thank Republicans while you are at it.

Zepp, No Weasels in the Bush

2003-08-26 00:02:25 UTC

Post by unknown
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:49:59 -0700, "Zepp, No Weasels in the Bush"

Impeachments.

...suborning Perjury, perjuring

Funny. I don't see any convictions there.

Nixon was never convicted either.

He quit, is why. With Clinton, there was a verdict. Shall I post
that verdict for you?

Post by Mark Neglay
Not getting convicted is not the same thing as being proven innocent.
Here in the US (I know things may be different in your native country)
the courts can only find someone guilty or not guilty in the eyes of
the law. Do you know the difference between "not-guilty" and
"innocent" or is this conversation getting too confusing?

Actually, Canada and Britian both have excellent legal systems, better
than what America's has become. You doubtlessly spend a considerable
amount of time calling for mandatory sentencing, three strikes,
"getting rid of librul judges" and so on, and thus are part of the
reason for the decline.

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Court appointments.

...adding meaningless points on to an already meaningless list

Is that supposed to be coherant?

It certainly did in Putsch vs. Gore, didn't it. Do you know what your
fascist clown Antonin Scalia said when he illegitimately took up the
case on behalf of the court? "To permit the count to go forward would
irreperably harm the Bush candidacy."

Yeah. He would have lost.

Several words where are identical to
ones found in English,

"Several words where are identical..."
Is that supposed to mean something?

I was just taking a crack at your native tongue. It thought it might
be Jim Beam.

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Gerrymanderings.

...adding meaningless points on to an already meaningless list

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Recalls.

...pissing off an entire state so much that they vote for a recal

3% of the population is "an entire state"?

And yet support for the recall is falling like a rock. Did you know
that?

Post by Mark Neglay
As you can see, almost 20 times as many people actually want Davis
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/15/davis.recall.ap/

But now support is down to 50%, and falling fast.

Post by Mark Neglay
See how that works? Did I use too many large words?

You don't know any large words.

...whining that when the voters exercise their right to vote in a
recal election, they are somehow undermining the electoral process

Just keep doing it until you get the result you want, right?

Doesn't make me jealous. I can still excercise my right to debate and
influence.

Of course, you want to make votes meaningless. I don't quite follow
that, especially since you keep pounding your chest and declaring
yourself to be an Amerkin and all, but then, most right wingers are
pretty crazy around here, and there's no reason why you should be any
different, I guess.

Post by Mark Neglay
Moron.

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Plane crashes.

...making up conspiracy theories to add even more to an already
meaningless list

Gosh, I haven't made up any conspiracy theories, chuckles.

According to you, Republicans use plane crashes to undermine the
electoral process. This is called a conspiracy theory.

Maybe you
should wait until someone actually does before you start screaming
about what a fucking victim you are.

Victim? Just making shit up now? Nevermind, you were doing that
before.

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Don't Republicans believe in honest elections any more?

Do liberal have a point anymore?

Yeah. We stand for America.

Nice platitude. That and $0.50 will get you a cup of coffee.

Right wingers want to dismantle freedom
and democracy.

Judging by your examples, it's pretty obvious you are just 'saying
anything'. Don't forget that Republicans want to kill your first born
as well. Make sure to add that to the list.

Not dead, in jail,...

The first two are certainly true. Liberals certainly don't like to
punish criminals.

...or a slave? Thank a liberal!

Yes, and thank Republicans while you are at it.

*******************
"But always remember, my friend: when politicians begin demanding patriotism of the people of a country, fascism has arrived."
-- Shaffik, in Ken Finkleman's "More Tears"

To subscribe to Zepp's News http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zepps_News/join
For essays ONLY, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/***@yahoogroups.com/join
For my fiction, http://www.finestplanet.com/~zepp/

Mark Cook

2003-08-26 16:20:38 UTC

Post by unknown
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:49:59 -0700, "Zepp, No Weasels in the Bush"

Impeachments.

...suborning Perjury, perjuring

Funny. I don't see any convictions there.

Nixon was never convicted either.

He quit, is why. With Clinton, there was a verdict. Shall I post
that verdict for you?

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Court appointments.

...adding meaningless points on to an already meaningless list

Is that supposed to be coherant?

You mean to tell us that all Gore had to do was follow Florida Election Law
and ask for a statewide recount of all ballots in all counties, he would
have won?

Gore and the Democrats didn't think so, otherwise why would they try to
steal the election? They tried this by attempting to illegally cherry
picking 4 Democrat Counties, see: Bedell vs. Palm Beach County Canvassing
Board and Gore vs. Harris. Then trying to have legal ballots thrown out, see
Jacobs vs. Seminole County Canvassing Board and Taylor vs. Martin County
Canvassing Board. And of course we have the Democrats trying to have the
Federal Voting Rights Act thrown out, see (Robert) Harris vs. State of
Florida Election Canvassing Commission.

If what you say is true, Gore has to be the DUMBEST Presidential Candidate
all
time. But of course we knew that.

Several words where are identical to
ones found in English,

"Several words where are identical..."
Is that supposed to mean something?

I was just taking a crack at your native tongue. It thought it might
be Jim Beam.

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Gerrymanderings.

...adding meaningless points on to an already meaningless list

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Recalls.

...pissing off an entire state so much that they vote for a recal

3% of the population is "an entire state"?

And yet support for the recall is falling like a rock. Did you know
that?

Post by Mark Neglay
As you can see, almost 20 times as many people actually want Davis
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/15/davis.recall.ap/

But now support is down to 50%, and falling fast.

Post by Mark Neglay
See how that works? Did I use too many large words?

You don't know any large words.

...whining that when the voters exercise their right to vote in a
recal election, they are somehow undermining the electoral process

Just keep doing it until you get the result you want, right?

Doesn't make me jealous. I can still excercise my right to debate and
influence.
Of course, you want to make votes meaningless. I don't quite follow
that, especially since you keep pounding your chest and declaring
yourself to be an Amerkin and all, but then, most right wingers are
pretty crazy around here, and there's no reason why you should be any
different, I guess.

Post by Mark Neglay
Moron.

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Plane crashes.

...making up conspiracy theories to add even more to an already
meaningless list

Gosh, I haven't made up any conspiracy theories, chuckles.

According to you, Republicans use plane crashes to undermine the
electoral process. This is called a conspiracy theory.

Maybe you
should wait until someone actually does before you start screaming
about what a fucking victim you are.

Victim? Just making shit up now? Nevermind, you were doing that
before.

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Don't Republicans believe in honest elections any more?

Do liberal have a point anymore?

Yeah. We stand for America.

Nice platitude. That and $0.50 will get you a cup of coffee.

Right wingers want to dismantle freedom
and democracy.

Judging by your examples, it's pretty obvious you are just 'saying
anything'. Don't forget that Republicans want to kill your first born
as well. Make sure to add that to the list.

Not dead, in jail,...

The first two are certainly true. Liberals certainly don't like to
punish criminals.

...or a slave? Thank a liberal!

Yes, and thank Republicans while you are at it.

*******************
"But always remember, my friend: when politicians begin demanding

patriotism of the people of a country, fascism has arrived."

Post by Zepp, No Weasels in the Bush
-- Shaffik, in Ken Finkleman's "More Tears"
To subscribe to Zepp's News http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zepps_News/join
For essays ONLY,
For my fiction, http://www.finestplanet.com/~zepp/

Steve Canyon

2003-08-20 20:56:54 UTC

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Someday you right wingers are going to have to realize that societies
have expenses.

LOL... IOW, Zepp wants some of the some other folks money because he
knows he's not bright enough to earn it on his own.

What? You mean he's not independently wealthy from selling
Zepp's Commentaries? Shocking!

I understand that he's been begging on the other weasels to finance
the publishing of his silly little rants. Liberals are good at
begging, but he's begging the other beggars.

"I have the right to vote against him in the next
election." --Zepp Jamieson, 1996
http://www.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=4l6trj%24iq4%40news.snowcrest.net

"Legal resident alien Zepp Jamieson, a Canadian who has lived
in the United States for more than 30 years, said his status
changed dramatically with the Patriot Act."
http://www.mtshastanews.com/archives/index.inn?loc=detail&doc=/2003/June/04-1695-news11.txt

Legal resident aliens cannot vote so why does Zepp need to pretend that he is a citizen?

Is this a clue?

"Suppose something happened here, and you had to scram to another
country in a hurry to save your ass. Would you renounce your American
citizenship after a few years?" --Zepp Jamieson 1997
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=3372a9c3.258180564%40news.snowcrest.net

The Fair and Balanced Weasel

2003-08-24 22:31:01 UTC

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:25:16 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

http://www.cmta.net/oped/090602middle_class_wealth.php

Not a single credible fact there to back up your claim that businesses have
been driven away and are leaving California in any abnormal or significant
rate.

Simple question. Do you think having a tax burden significantly
above the national average costs jobs?
BTW today Bustamante said he's going to raise taxes $8B if
elected. You'd never admit it, but it will cost even more jobs.

Having the state default would cost even more jobs.

If it continues to increase taxes, it will default.

Utter nonsense.

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Someday you right wingers are going to have to realize that societies
have expenses.

You mean like JFK, who wrote, ""It is increasingly clear that no
matter what party is in power, so long as our national security needs
keep rising, an economy hampered by restrictive tax rates
will never produce enough jobs or enough profits."
---JFK, Remarks to the Economic Club of New York, December 14,
1962, Public Papers of the Presidents: 1962, p. 879.

So let's go back to the tax rates we had under JFK. That lead to a
pretty big-sized boom, as I recall.

The problem in California is that the government spent a temporary tax
windfall like it was a permanent source of income. WHen it stopped,
they did not stop the spending.
If I was the praying type, I would pray that they keep Gray Davis.
The Dims created this problem, they should have to suffer from it.
Regards, Harold (Capitalist Pig)
----
The cost of freedom is always high, but Americans have always paid it.
And one path we shall never choose, and that is
the path of surrender, or submission."
----President John F. Kennedy

unknown

2003-08-26 00:58:37 UTC

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:31:01 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:25:16 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

http://www.cmta.net/oped/090602middle_class_wealth.php

Not a single credible fact there to back up your claim that businesses have
been driven away and are leaving California in any abnormal or significant
rate.

Simple question. Do you think having a tax burden significantly
above the national average costs jobs?
BTW today Bustamante said he's going to raise taxes $8B if
elected. You'd never admit it, but it will cost even more jobs.

Having the state default would cost even more jobs.

If it continues to increase taxes, it will default.

Utter nonsense.

Well, your marshaling of fact and logic is absolutely overwhelming.
Yessir idiot.

Regards, Harold
-----
"...each individual has certain basic rights that are neither
conferred by nor derived from the state. To discover where they
came from it is necessary to move back behind the dim mist of
eternity, for they are God-given."
--- M.L. King, Lincoln University, 1961

unknown

2003-08-29 01:07:18 UTC

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:44:06 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

Post by unknown
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:31:01 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:25:16 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

http://www.cmta.net/oped/090602middle_class_wealth.php

Not a single credible fact there to back up your claim that businesses have
been driven away and are leaving California in any abnormal or significant
rate.

Simple question. Do you think having a tax burden significantly
above the national average costs jobs?
BTW today Bustamante said he's going to raise taxes $8B if
elected. You'd never admit it, but it will cost even more jobs.

Having the state default would cost even more jobs.

If it continues to increase taxes, it will default.

Utter nonsense.

Well, your marshaling of fact and logic is absolutely overwhelming.
Yessir idiot.

And of course, you snipped the rest.
Very brave, harry. Did you waggle your flag when you did it?

You had more to say? My gosh, when I read something as dumb as you
posted, I see no reason to look at any more of your spittle.

Let's see, you said, "So let's go back to the tax rates we had under
JFK. That lead to a pretty big-sized boom, as I recall."

Yes it did, and no doubt you also want the same deductions for the
wealthy. You little dog you, always looking out for the rich, huh.
Lick their bungholes, OK?

Then in response to a quote I put in by JFK, "The cost of freedom is
always high, but Americans have always paid it. And one path we shall
never choose, and that is the path of surrender, or submission."

You replied, "Impeachments. Court appointments. Gerrymanderings.
Recalls. Plane crashes. Don't Republicans believe in honest elections
any more?"

How that follows, I don't know, but apparently you are complaining
about the Dims stealing the election from Nixon in Chicago? Well,
let it go, slimehead. Its over, JFK was elected, and your slimy hero
liberal Nixon had to wait eight years. Or maybe you are laughing
about JFK Jr., dying in that plane crash. What a little shitwad you
are, gloating about such a human tragedy!!

Get a life, stinky.

Regards, Harold (Capitalist Pig)
----------
"Odd, but there was no debt ceiling in the 50's, or 60's or 70's, or
most of the 80's. I'm not saying there wasn't one in the 40's--there
may well have been. But to my certain knowledge it was gone by the
60's. Must not have worked out so well."
----Zepp, the weasel, 6/20/1997

unknown

2003-08-29 01:09:59 UTC

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:47:55 GMT, Mitchell Holman

Post by unknown
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:31:01 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:25:16 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

http://www.cmta.net/oped/090602middle_class_wealth.php

Not a single credible fact there to back up your claim that
businesses have been driven away and are leaving California in any
abnormal or significant rate.

Simple question. Do you think having a tax burden significantly
above the national average costs jobs?
BTW today Bustamante said he's going to raise taxes $8B if
elected. You'd never admit it, but it will cost even more jobs.

Having the state default would cost even more jobs.

If it continues to increase taxes, it will default.

Utter nonsense.

Well, your marshaling of fact and logic is absolutely overwhelming.
Yessir idiot.

"is this just one of your usual personal attacks,

Yes indeed. I calls them like I sees them.

You going to assert that Zippy is not an idiot, and a liar?

Read this quote from him, tell me it is not a lie:

"Odd, but there was no debt ceiling in the 50's, or 60's or 70's, or
most of the 80's. I'm not saying there wasn't one in the 40's--there
may well have been. But to my certain knowledge it was gone by the
60's. Must not have worked out so well."

Or maybe the time he claimed to be a Canadian citizen, and then the
time he said he would vote against a US politician? Which is the lie
you will defend?

What is a Canadian doing messing around in our affairs anyway? He is
proof positive that unlimited immigration is a bad idea.

Regards, Harold (Capitalist Pig)
----------
"Odd, but there was no debt ceiling in the 50's, or 60's or 70's, or
most of the 80's. I'm not saying there wasn't one in the 40's--there
may well have been. But to my certain knowledge it was gone by the
60's. Must not have worked out so well."
----Zepp, the weasel, 6/20/1997

qwerty

2003-08-20 23:13:09 UTC

http://www.cmta.net/oped/090602middle_class_wealth.php

Not a single credible fact there to back up your claim that businesses have
been driven away and are leaving California in any abnormal or significant
rate.

Simple question. Do you think having a tax burden significantly
above the national average costs jobs?

Your credible facts to back that up one way or the other?

Post by Foxtrot
BTW today Bustamante said he's going to raise taxes $8B if
elected. You'd never admit it, but it will cost even more jobs.

Proof?

Foxtrot

2003-08-21 01:52:00 UTC

Post by Foxtrot
Simple question. Do you think having a tax burden significantly
above the national average costs jobs?

Your credible facts to back that up one way or the other?

LOL! Just as I suspected--can't answer a simple question.

Post by Foxtrot
BTW today Bustamante said he's going to raise taxes $8B if
elected. You'd never admit it, but it will cost even more jobs.

Proof?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/19/recall.rdp/index.html

Bustamante's plan includes $7.9 billion in taxes and
fees

Talking with you is like talking to a parrot that has been
trained to say "proof" repeatedly.

qwerty

2003-08-21 19:17:18 UTC

Post by Foxtrot
Simple question. Do you think having a tax burden significantly
above the national average costs jobs?

Your credible facts to back that up one way or the other?

LOL! Just as I suspected--can't answer a simple question.

LOL, you've still got nothing. You can't provide a credible cite to back up
your assertions.

Post by Foxtrot
BTW today Bustamante said he's going to raise taxes $8B if
elected. You'd never admit it, but it will cost even more jobs.

Proof?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/19/recall.rdp/index.html
Bustamante's plan includes $7.9 billion in taxes and
fees
Talking with you is like talking to a parrot that has been
trained to say "proof" repeatedly.

And you're proof that this will cost jobs?

Foxtrot

2003-08-22 00:29:52 UTC

Post by Foxtrot
Simple question. Do you think having a tax burden significantly
above the national average costs jobs?

Your credible facts to back that up one way or the other?

LOL! Just as I suspected--can't answer a simple question.

LOL, you've still got nothing. You can't provide a credible cite to back up
your assertions.

I asked you a simple question, and you're incapable of
answering it. Typical Dem Clinton clone, no sincere
discussion, just lawyerish weaseling.

Foxtrot

2003-08-22 04:14:22 UTC

Post by Foxtrot
I asked you a simple question, and you're incapable of
answering it. Typical Dem Clinton clone, no sincere
discussion, just lawyerish weaseling.

As I recall, California's state tax is seventeenth highest in the US;
slightly above average, but obviously nowhere near the top.
In one way, though, Californians do get taxeddisproportionately; as a
wealthy and productive blue state, they pay a higher amount in federal
revenues compared to what they get back in terms of federal
assistance.

Nice to see you admit the fundamental unfairness of a
progressive tax system.

In fact, as a liberal, you have a lot of nerve to mention
any inequities between what is paid in taxes and what is
received in benefits.

The money goes to the red states, were poverty, squalor,
and need are more commonplace, the home of the GOP subjects.

Kinda like the way tax dollars go from the productive in
society to the deadbeats, aka the welfare state, eh?

The Fair and Balanced Weasel

2003-08-22 13:04:07 UTC

Post by Foxtrot
I asked you a simple question, and you're incapable of
answering it. Typical Dem Clinton clone, no sincere
discussion, just lawyerish weaseling.

Nice to see you admit the fundamental unfairness of a
progressive tax system.

Who said it was unfair? We have a moral obligation to take care of
our incompetent right wing brethern!

Post by Foxtrot
In fact, as a liberal, you have a lot of nerve to mention
any inequities between what is paid in taxes and what is
received in benefits.

The money goes to the red states, were poverty, squalor,
and need are more commonplace, the home of the GOP subjects.

Kinda like the way tax dollars go from the productive in
society to the deadbeats, aka the welfare state, eh?

If that's what you want to call those poor Republicans, go right
ahead.

Impeachments. Court appointments. Gerrymanderings. Recalls. Plane crashes.
Don't Republicans believe in honest elections any more?

Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com

Steve Canyon

2003-08-25 01:43:39 UTC

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:28:32 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 06:04:07 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

Post by Foxtrot
I asked you a simple question, and you're incapable of
answering it. Typical Dem Clinton clone, no sincere
discussion, just lawyerish weaseling.

Nice to see you admit the fundamental unfairness of a
progressive tax system.

Who said it was unfair? We have a moral obligation to take care of
our incompetent right wing brethern!

So Zippy, you claim to be paying income taxes? Further, you claim
that Dims like yourself, pay more than Republicans.
Could be. After all, the DNC gets most of its contributions in large
checks. Some from China.
I don't believe you make enough money.

Trying to be a junior Steve Canyon now, harry?

Jamieson is a bit ashamed of how poorly he's done, but not ashamed
enough not to beg his weasel buddies for money to help him publish his
stupid rhetoric.

Come to think of it, he's not even ashamed of his "commentaries" not
being good enough to merit publishing on their own.

Might as well. Your credibility was already shot and few bother
reading you any more.

Regards, Harold (Capitalist Pig)
----------
"Odd, but there was no debt ceiling in the 50's, or 60's or 70's, or
most of the 80's. I'm not saying there wasn't one in the 40's--there
may well have been. But to my certain knowledge it was gone by the
60's. Must not have worked out so well."
----Zepp, the weasel, 6/20/1997

Impeachments. Court appointments. Gerrymanderings. Recalls. Plane crashes.
Don't Republicans believe in honest elections any more?
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com

"I have the right to vote against him in the next
election." --Zepp Jamieson, 1996
http://www.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=4l6trj%24iq4%40news.snowcrest.net

"Legal resident alien Zepp Jamieson, a Canadian who has lived
in the United States for more than 30 years, said his status
changed dramatically with the Patriot Act."
http://www.mtshastanews.com/archives/index.inn?loc=detail&doc=/2003/June/04-1695-news11.txt

Legal resident aliens cannot vote so why does Zepp need to pretend that he is a citizen?

Is this a clue?

"Suppose something happened here, and you had to scram to another
country in a hurry to save your ass. Would you renounce your American
citizenship after a few years?" --Zepp Jamieson 1997
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=3372a9c3.258180564%40news.snowcrest.net

unknown

2003-08-26 00:57:29 UTC

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:28:32 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 06:04:07 -0700, The Fair and Balanced Weasel

[deleted]

Post by The Fair and Balanced Weasel
Who said it was unfair? We have a moral obligation to take care of
our incompetent right wing brethern!

Trying to be a junior Steve Canyon now, harry?

Steve Canyon? You mean from DC Comics in the 1950's?

Or is this just one of your usual personal attacks, since you have run
out of reasonable argument, like every leftist?

Regards, Harold
-----
"...each individual has certain basic rights that are neither
conferred by nor derived from the state. To discover where they
came from it is necessary to move back behind the dim mist of
eternity, for they are God-given."
--- M.L. King, Lincoln University, 1961

The Fair and Balanced Weasel

2003-08-18 02:59:38 UTC

Post by qwerty
Do you have proof that Davis deliberately concealed this information?

No. Congratulations, he's OJ-style innocent. That's why,
like OJ, other means are being used to nail him. He's being
recalled instead of criminally prosecuted.

LOL, nice "Red Herring" bring up OJ. I AGAIN ask what CREDIBLE evidence can
you cite that Davis deliberately concealed this information!

Still waiting for something credible. So far you're making an even
stronger case against Putsch, who at least did something to cause his
deficits.

Post by Foxtrot
Proof of what? I don't believe conviction of specific crimes is
prerequisite to being recalled. If you claim it is, then post the
statute that says so.

I never said that, but don't you think that a Governor should be at least
guilty of serious crime before being recalled?

Peacenik

2003-08-16 12:28:19 UTC

Post by Foxtrot
Bitch, bitch, bitch. Dems didn't hold elections too sacred
to attack Reagan. They would have loved to have him tossed
out of office.

If here WERE tossed out, he never would have become president. That would
have been a Good Thing, since so many of the world's problems can be traced
to his incompetent, disastrous reign.

Post by Foxtrot
The impeachment against BJ and the recall against Davis
are perfectly legal avenues. If they hadn't sucked so bad,

Sucked? Clinton didn't suck, he WAS sucked. Indeed, Clinton did an
incredibly good job for the country, and was one of the greatest presidents
of the 20th century, and THE greatest so far of the 21st.

Davis's problems stemmed from the greed and corruption of megalomaniacal
energy company CEOs, aisded and abetted by the Bush regime.

--
Chris

Senor Chico

2003-08-16 03:57:03 UTC