This has always bugged me about the Aiel

[Eric]

OK, this is always something I've wondered about.
why does Jordan seem to have this amazing desire to have everyone
else's customs and way of life challenged and found lacking by the
Aiel? This goes right down to the customs of the people of Andor, to
Cairhien to the Aes Sedai themselves. Only they, in his book, seem to
have any "honor."
Everyone caught up with the Aiel in any way suddenly begin to behave
like theirs is the only way. Egwene is the worst victim, changing
from know-it-all girl to some kind of weird, all-knowing teenager
priss. She's what, 18? Yet she's the only Aes Sedai with honor.
It's highly annoying. There's no one I'd rather bitch slap than half
of the Wise Ones. So the Aes Sedai are haughty and think they're not
wrong. Who cares? The Wise Ones have their own agenda as well
(seeing to it that their people are kept as together as possible
through this ordeal). Minus the Black Ajah, the goal of the Aes Sedai
is to prevent another Breaking as much as possible. No less noble a
goal; moreso, since they desire to keep the world intact, not just one
people.
Of course, they do have ego and control issues...no one in these books
is without that. But the constant humiliation the Aes Sedai suffer
from the Wise Ones, the Kin, the Atha'an Miere (who, in my own humble
opinion, deserve nothing less than total annihilation by the
Seanchan), and the Black Tower/Asha'man.
If Jordan's agenda seems to be to crush the Aes Sedai ego, he's
certainly doing it at the expense of the ego of everyone else. The
only reason I find Cadsuane fascinating at all is that there's a small
chance she might show the Wise Ones they're not quite what they think
they are in the eyes of others.
Thoughts, comments?
Eric

[Cats 898]

Post by Eric
OK, this is always something I've wondered about.
why does Jordan seem to have this amazing desire to have everyone
else's customs and way of life challenged and found lacking by the
Aiel? This goes right down to the customs of the people of Andor, to
Cairhien to the Aes Sedai themselves. Only they, in his book, seem to
have any "honor."
Everyone caught up with the Aiel in any way suddenly begin to behave
like theirs is the only way. Egwene is the worst victim, changing
from know-it-all girl to some kind of weird, all-knowing teenager
priss. She's what, 18? Yet she's the only Aes Sedai with honor.
It's highly annoying. There's no one I'd rather bitch slap than half
of the Wise Ones. So the Aes Sedai are haughty and think they're not
wrong. Who cares? The Wise Ones have their own agenda as well
(seeing to it that their people are kept as together as possible
through this ordeal). Minus the Black Ajah, the goal of the Aes Sedai
is to prevent another Breaking as much as possible. No less noble a
goal; moreso, since they desire to keep the world intact, not just one
people.
Of course, they do have ego and control issues...no one in these books
is without that. But the constant humiliation the Aes Sedai suffer
from the Wise Ones, the Kin, the Atha'an Miere (who, in my own humble
opinion, deserve nothing less than total annihilation by the
Seanchan), and the Black Tower/Asha'man.
If Jordan's agenda seems to be to crush the Aes Sedai ego, he's
certainly doing it at the expense of the ego of everyone else. The
only reason I find Cadsuane fascinating at all is that there's a small
chance she might show the Wise Ones they're not quite what they think
they are in the eyes of others.
Thoughts, comments?
Eric

Simple. It is a common flaw of humanity to think that only your way of doing
something is the right and proper way. The Aiel are humans, thus they fall into
this flaw. They believe honor is their complicated system, and everyone else is
not following honor, even if they are following their own personal version of
honor.

Natasha

[Zdenek Dvorak]

Hello,

Post by Cats 898
Simple. It is a common flaw of humanity to think that only your way of doing
something is the right and proper way. The Aiel are humans, thus they fall into
this flaw. They believe honor is their complicated system, and everyone else is
not following honor, even if they are following their own personal version of
honor.

The problem, though, is that the Aiel fundamentally don't make sense.
One can, if one holds one's nose and closes one's eyes, imagine that
their society works the way it's been outlined in the reaches of the
Aiel Waste.
It simply makes no sense, though, unless you assume that pretty much
ever military leader of every nation in the Aiel War was a complete
and utter bonehead-- *and* that none of them were assassinated by
their more competent troops who wanted to survive-- to think that the
Aiel should be such complete ass-kickers in a completely different
environment.
It makes no specific sense-- the Aiel are out-armed, out-armored,
out-platformed, out-logisted. They are light infantry against heavy
cavalry, which is a mismatched pair strategically, but loses
(horribly!) in a stand-up fight. Their only chance for victory in
detail is to perfectly decide the battle, and that's pretty difficult
when you've got no fucking clue about the environemnt.

it is however reasonable to assume that they may overpower any other
infantry (a wariors trained for all their life for fight versus
band of poorly trained recruits ment only as a support for cavalry).
By carying only light equipment, they also gain a superior mobility,
which is a serious strategical advantage. What is a real win for them
is their masking skill, which is what I consider really weird (you may
develop excelent masking skills for desert, but why the hell should they
be at all useful to you in forest?); but assuming that they by some
miracle gained it, it reduces the disadvantage of an unknown environment
significantly (reliable spies), and gives them advantage of surprise.
While heavy cavalry is great against infantry, most of its
advantages are negated when the fight occurs anywhere but in open
terrain and if the enemy occurs close to them. And finally they have
a great advantage of superior morale.

This is not to say that an idea of superior barbarian fighters is not
stupid; if it was not, we would have ones in reality. But this idea
seems to be appealing to almost every fantasy writer, from some reason.

Zdenek

[John S. Novak, III]

Post by Zdenek Dvorak
it is however reasonable to assume that they may overpower any other
infantry (a wariors trained for all their life for fight versus
band of poorly trained recruits ment only as a support for cavalry).

No, it's not.
In a stand up fight against heavy infantry, light infantry lose. Why?
Well, because, the heavy infantry have better armor and better
shields and often better weapons.

Post by Zdenek Dvorak
By carying only light equipment, they also gain a superior mobility,
which is a serious strategical advantage.

This, at least, is true. The classic fight between light and heavy is
not stand-up, unless the light infantry is manuevered somewhere it
can't retreat. Instead, it's a hit and run affair.

But, hey, this is why we have cavalry.

Post by Zdenek Dvorak
What is a real win for them
is their masking skill, which is what I consider really weird (you may
develop excelent masking skills for desert, but why the hell should they
be at all useful to you in forest?);

Precisely my point.
There's no reason for their desert skills to apply here.
Yet, magically, they do.

[Michael Hoye]

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by Zdenek Dvorak
it is however reasonable to assume that they may overpower any other
infantry (a wariors trained for all their life for fight versus
band of poorly trained recruits ment only as a support for cavalry).

No, it's not.
In a stand up fight against heavy infantry, light infantry lose. Why?
Well, because, the heavy infantry have better armor and better
shields and often better weapons.

I think that Zdenek is postulating several hundred individual
hand-to-hand scuffles, which given the ninja prowess the story awards
the Aiel, they would certainly win the majority.

This isn't the case if you're going to use any kind of large-army
tactics, of course, but given the overall competence of the
leadership in Randland it's not a huge leap to make.

[Dave Rothgery]

Post by John S. Novak, III
No, it's not.
In a stand up fight against heavy infantry, light infantry lose. Why?
Well, because, the heavy infantry have better armor and better
shields and often better weapons.

A smart commander does NOT use light cavalry in a stand up fight then, as
the Aiel do not. They basically use the same tactics that the Mongol armies
used in their campaigns in Eastern Europe against larger armies equipped
with heavy armored cavalry.

They can't. The Aiel don't have horses. Allowing Aiel to keep up with
horses is a fantastic element in WoT, just as the One Power is.

Post by John S. Novak, III
This, at least, is true. The classic fight between light and heavy is
not stand-up, unless the light infantry is manuevered somewhere it
can't retreat. Instead, it's a hit and run affair.
But, hey, this is why we have cavalry.

So why is it so unbelievable that the Aiel could also use these same
tactics against the poorer-trained and much less-disciplined wetlander
armies of Randland?

Because in the case in question, the wetlanders had highly competent
senior commanders (certainly Pedron Niall and Aglemar Jagad; Gareth
Byrne and Devram Bashere were also there in less senior positions than
they now hold; Tam al'Thor was there with the Illianer Companions), and
large portions of the wetlander armies were skilled veterans
(borderlanders -- including Sheinarans from the Eastern Marches who are
familiar with Aiel; Tairens and Illianers, quite used to fighting each
other; Children of the Light, who show up wherever they can cause
trouble).

Post by John S. Novak, III
Precisely my point.
There's no reason for their desert skills to apply here.
Yet, magically, they do.

You make it sound like they learned some sort of mystical technique in the
Waste. Real simple: they're tougher than wetlanders cause they have to live
in a desert.

As opposed to borderlanders, who have to live in the Frozen North and
fight Trollocs? Bullshit.

We'd also note that living in a desert means that you'll get less food,
and less variety in what you get. This is definitely a disadvantage.

[Ragnarok73]

Post by Dave Rothgery
They can't. The Aiel don't have horses. Allowing Aiel to keep up with
horses is a fantastic element in WoT, just as the One Power is.

They don't need to keep up with horses- that's what they have arrows and
javelins for. The Aiel shoot arrows and throw javelins to soften up the
cavalry and break up its ranks before engaging in close combat. Jordan
mirrored Mongol tactics enough to write about Aiel attacking the HORSES of
the cavalry like they did when they got rid of Melanril in TFoH.

Post by Dave Rothgery
Because in the case in question, the wetlanders had highly competent
senior commanders (certainly Pedron Niall and Aglemar Jagad; Gareth
Byrne and Devram Bashere were also there in less senior positions than
they now hold; Tam al'Thor was there with the Illianer Companions), and
large portions of the wetlander armies were skilled veterans
(borderlanders -- including Sheinarans from the Eastern Marches who are
familiar with Aiel; Tairens and Illianers, quite used to fighting each
other; Children of the Light, who show up wherever they can cause
trouble).

You're right, during the Aiel War there were some very good commanders in
the coalition army. But it wasn't exactly like the Aiel had idiots for
battle leaders and they were more united than the armies of the coalition
were (Janduin being the leader and all). When the competence in command is
roughly equal, then it comes down to the quality and discipline of the
forces on both sides- the Aiel were written to be superior in both aspects.
Don't forget too, that the tactics of the Aiel are better suited to uneven
forested terrain like that of most of the world in Randland.

Post by Dave Rothgery
As opposed to borderlanders, who have to live in the Frozen North and
fight Trollocs? Bullshit.

Um, so the Aiel didn't have to fight the Trollocs either? BTW, it's
easier to survive in a colder climate than in an arid one especially as the
Borderlands aren't exactly "frozen".

Post by Dave Rothgery
We'd also note that living in a desert means that you'll get less food,
and less variety in what you get. This is definitely a disadvantage.

When everyday life is a struggle for survival, a person tends to get
tougher and more resourceful out of necessity- call it survival of the
fittest. Jordan also wrote of plant life that could survive in an arid
climate (probably based off of the plant life in Mexico with references to
corn and peppers). The Aiel would also eat anything that slithered or
crawled on top of keeping domesticated animals in their holds, so
protein-consumption wasn't an issue either.

Ragnarok73

[John S. Novak, III]

Post by Ragnarok73
You're right, during the Aiel War there were some very good commanders in
the coalition army. But it wasn't exactly like the Aiel had idiots for
battle leaders and they were more united than the armies of the coalition
were (Janduin being the leader and all). When the competence in command is
roughly equal, then it comes down to the quality and discipline of the
forces on both sides- the Aiel were written to be superior in both aspects.

You're leaving out material.
The Aiel are woefully inferior in every possible way, on this front.

There's still no mention of why the Aiel have any tradition of
fighting heavy cavalry.

Post by Ragnarok73
Don't forget too, that the tactics of the Aiel are better suited to uneven
forested terrain like that of most of the world in Randland.

Or how they developed forest tactics when none of them have seen a
tree.

It's another area where the Aiel are basically frictionless-- counter
to every military force that has ever existed, the Aiel function, in
hundred thousand man groups, as well as the best single one of them
could be expected to function alone. This included motion (a hundred
thousand Aiel move as fast as the best of them would, running in the
night) and tactics (where one Aiel might be expected to be smart
enough to think of forest tactics, they all do.)

This is just not how it works in the real world.

Post by Ragnarok73
When everyday life is a struggle for survival, a person tends to get
tougher and more resourceful out of necessity- call it survival of the
fittest.

Time to play our home game, "Scrabbling in the dirt for calories!"
Romantic twaddle.

Post by Ragnarok73
Jordan also wrote of plant life that could survive in an arid
climate (probably based off of the plant life in Mexico with references to
corn and peppers).

Then it's really not that tough, is it?
More unrealistic advantages to the Aiel-- they're desert warriors from
the land with no food! And they have maize! And tomatoes!

Enh? Maybe they can drive a herd of fucking cattle across that
desert, too, and have steak every night for dinner.

Post by Ragnarok73
The Aiel would also eat anything that slithered or
crawled on top of keeping domesticated animals in their holds, so
protein-consumption wasn't an issue either.

<Snort>

[Pat OConnell]

[snip military unreality points]

Post by John S. Novak, III
Time to play our home game, "Scrabbling in the dirt for calories!"
Romantic twaddle.

Post by Ragnarok73
Jordan also wrote of plant life that could survive in an arid
climate (probably based off of the plant life in Mexico with references to
corn and peppers).

Then it's really not that tough, is it?
More unrealistic advantages to the Aiel-- they're desert warriors from
the land with no food! And they have maize! And tomatoes!

Keep in mind that blue corn is well adapted to cultivation in the desert;
the Hopi irrigatee the plants, but with nowhere near the amount needed by
other corn varieties. Tomatillos (which are related to, but are not
tomatoes) are desert adapted, IIRC.

Post by John S. Novak, III
Enh? Maybe they can drive a herd of fucking cattle across that
desert, too, and have steak every night for dinner.

CHeck out NM and west Texas sometime. if there's water from wells and
enough land to graze, cattle can survive. However, I don't remember Aiel
surviving on anything but natural springs.

[cheeseb0y]

In all of these posts on this thread that discuss how the Aiel could
survive and thrive in the Waste, I think we've ALL forgotten about one other
factor that the Aiel have in their daily life in the Waste: women who can
CHANNEL. Re-reading the chapter that covered Rand's little gift to them at
Rhuidean in TFoH brought this crashing home on me with embarassing
quickness. How about from now on if someone brings up an issue that they
don't find is explained well enough in the books, we all just say: "An Aes
Sedai did it." and just leave it at that? I'm sure that would be
Mr.Rigney's response if someone were to point out a plot-hole in his books.
:)
Ragnarok73

i find this much more plausable.
"Bela did it."
-cb

[John S. Novak, III]

In all of these posts on this thread that discuss how the Aiel could
survive and thrive in the Waste, I think we've ALL forgotten about one other
factor that the Aiel have in their daily life in the Waste: women who can
CHANNEL. Re-reading the chapter that covered Rand's little gift to them at
Rhuidean in TFoH brought this crashing home on me with embarassing
quickness. How about from now on if someone brings up an issue that they
don't find is explained well enough in the books, we all just say: "An Aes
Sedai did it." and just leave it at that? I'm sure that would be
Mr.Rigney's response if someone were to point out a plot-hole in his books.

Because it is cheesy, that's why.

It's a fucking desert. Water is cited as being incredibly rare. Rare
enough to fight to the death over. Water cannot simultaneously be
common enough to nourish crops and provide for hundred thousand men
armies by any means, magical or not.

Consider that there were at least 500,000 warriors come out of the
Waste this time around-- probably more like 650,000. Consider it
takes about three pounds of food and three pounds of water per day to
keep a man on the march going. It took Rand and his lot fourteen days
to reach the Jangai Pass, so let's assume that's average.

(It's also noted that Rand ran the Aiel at horse-killing speeds for
that whole time, too, which is not only very unrealistic on multiple
levels, but should drive the food and especially water consumption WAY
up.)

We're talking about 1,500,000 pounds, or 750 TONS of food and 750 tons
of water consumed each day. For the whole force, that's 10,500 tons
of food and 10,500 tons of water. How in the world did the Aiel come
up with a logistical tail that allowed them to even *have* 21,000 tons
of supplies, much less fucking transport it?

I'd love to see the pack mules and wagons keep up with horse-killing
paces. And the size of the pack mule force would add to the supply
burden, as well.

[Loïc Joly]

Post by John S. Novak, III
We're talking about 1,500,000 pounds, or 750 TONS of food and 750 tons
of water consumed each day. For the whole force, that's 10,500 tons
of food and 10,500 tons of water. How in the world did the Aiel come
up with a logistical tail that allowed them to even *have* 21,000 tons
of supplies, much less fucking transport it?

When I walk in the mountain, I only carry a small quantity of water. I
refill my bottle at every stream I cross.

[tom dunne]

Post by Loïc Joly

Post by John S. Novak, III
We're talking about 1,500,000 pounds, or 750 TONS of food and 750 tons
of water consumed each day. For the whole force, that's 10,500 tons
of food and 10,500 tons of water. How in the world did the Aiel come
up with a logistical tail that allowed them to even *have* 21,000 tons
of supplies, much less fucking transport it?

When I walk in the mountain, I only carry a small quantity of water. I
refill my bottle at every stream I cross.

Try that marching across an arid wasteland. Make sure to carry a note
with you explaining the experiment, so when your dessicated corpse is
found, someone will know to stop by here and tell us how you fared.

[John S. Novak, III]

ROFL, Tom, I swear. Four or five of my friends went hiking a few years
ago with one bottle of water between them. I remember warning them that
they were fucking morons (not about water specifically, but about their
general lack of planning) before I refused to go. I'm not a wilderness
guy, but I've done enough hiking that I know you don't just head out in a
desert without a plan. It went predictably bad, except for the part where
I mocked them. Nothing endears a friend like having your self-induced
near death experience rubbed in your face for a few weeks. Heh.

Do you have ANY IDEA what kind of hideously evil snarky remark I'm
holding back?

[Ian Hurst]

Post by John S. Novak, III

ROFL, Tom, I swear. Four or five of my friends went hiking a few years
ago with one bottle of water between them. I remember warning them that
they were fucking morons (not about water specifically, but about their
general lack of planning) before I refused to go. I'm not a wilderness
guy, but I've done enough hiking that I know you don't just head out in a
desert without a plan. It went predictably bad, except for the part where
I mocked them. Nothing endears a friend like having your self-induced
near death experience rubbed in your face for a few weeks. Heh.

Do you have ANY IDEA what kind of hideously evil snarky remark I'm
holding back?

Spare me.

[Mark Loy]

Post by Ian Hurst

Post by John S. Novak, III

ROFL, Tom, I swear. Four or five of my friends went hiking a few years
ago with one bottle of water between them. I remember warning them that
they were fucking morons (not about water specifically, but about their
general lack of planning) before I refused to go. I'm not a wilderness
guy, but I've done enough hiking that I know you don't just head out in a
desert without a plan. It went predictably bad, except for the part where
I mocked them. Nothing endears a friend like having your self-induced
near death experience rubbed in your face for a few weeks. Heh.

Do you have ANY IDEA what kind of hideously evil snarky remark I'm
holding back?

Spare me.

No, that's probably not it.








ML

[John S. Novak, III]

Post by Loïc Joly

Post by John S. Novak, III
We're talking about 1,500,000 pounds, or 750 TONS of food and 750 tons
of water consumed each day. For the whole force, that's 10,500 tons
of food and 10,500 tons of water. How in the world did the Aiel come
up with a logistical tail that allowed them to even *have* 21,000 tons
of supplies, much less fucking transport it?

When I walk in the mountain, I only carry a small quantity of water. I
refill my bottle at every stream I cross.

Okay, work with me, here.

1) It's a DESERT!
2) Not if you and fifty thousand of your closest buddies want to
maintain horse-threatening speeds, you don't.

[John S. Novak, III]

Post by John S. Novak, III
(It's also noted that Rand ran the Aiel at horse-killing speeds for
that whole time, too, which is not only very unrealistic on multiple
levels, but should drive the food and especially water consumption WAY
up.)

Really? I thought the pace of Rand's Aiel was pretty much limited to
the speed Kadere's wagons could make.

I just checked it-- it's mentioned that the horses were having trouble
keeping up.

[John Alt]

In article <bk85aq$qj3cn$***@ID-100778.news.uni-berlin.de>,
***@concentric.net says...

<Snip Logistics>

In the next book, RJ will settle all this by disclosing "McLembas", a
chain of food outposts the Aeil set up for just such an emergency.

[John S. Novak, III]

<Snip>
An Aes Sedai did it.
Funny how people can accept magic as a central plot device but argue to
death about something that touches on reality.

Jordan designed a world where his magic acts in predictable,
repeatable ways. This is a consequence.

I'm done with this thread-
like I said before, this must simply be my antsiness in waiting for the next
book. The fact that some people on this thread have started to become nasty
(Richard and David) also tells me that it's time to end it. This was
interesting but ultimately pointless, but hey, let me know if Jordan comes
to your area 'cause I'd love to see you badgering him on this point. That
was some interesting work on the stats you pulled up for calorie
consumption, though.

Funny how you declare ictory and bow out, as soon as I point out that
a low estimate on supplies for the march out of the Waste requires
approximately *twenty fucking thousand tons* of provisions.

<Snort>

I'm going to say that one more time, both because I like the sound of
it and because I think it's a point no one has yet to refute--
certainly not you:

Twenty fucking *thousand* *TONS*!

[Indigo Wombat]

Post by John S. Novak, III
There's still no mention of why the Aiel have any tradition of
fighting heavy cavalry.

On this one point, and without addressing the rest of your argument, I'll
have to contradict you. It's apparent from several passages in tGH, as well
as Lan's demonstrated knowledge of Aiel culture and tactics in tSR, that
Aiel and Shienaran forces come into hostile contact fairly often. There are
references in EotW and tGH to a Shienaran city called Ankor Dail, that "held
the Eastern Marches and guarded the Spine of the World." [EotW: 48, The
Blight, p.722 Tor pb] Masema's service there is the root of his initial
prejudice against the Aiel-looking Rand al'Thor. Ongoing Aiel-Shienaran
raids and hostilities would give the Aiel experience in fighting against
heavy cavalry.

--
The Indigo Wombat
Marsupial of Might

[John S. Novak, III]

Post by Indigo Wombat

Post by John S. Novak, III
There's still no mention of why the Aiel have any tradition of
fighting heavy cavalry.

On this one point, and without addressing the rest of your argument, I'll
have to contradict you. It's apparent from several passages in tGH, as well
as Lan's demonstrated knowledge of Aiel culture and tactics in tSR, that
Aiel and Shienaran forces come into hostile contact fairly often. There are
references in EotW and tGH to a Shienaran city called Ankor Dail, that "held
the Eastern Marches and guarded the Spine of the World." [EotW: 48, The
Blight, p.722 Tor pb] Masema's service there is the root of his initial
prejudice against the Aiel-looking Rand al'Thor. Ongoing Aiel-Shienaran
raids and hostilities would give the Aiel experience in fighting against
heavy cavalry.

I don't see the passage you're talking about in that chapter, but I
remember it. I had the strong impression that this was during the
Aiel War, not a permanent political feature.

Why would the Aiel be raiding Shienar to begin with, when the Trollocs
in the Waste-Blight are just as close in that area?

[Indigo Wombat]

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by Indigo Wombat

Post by John S. Novak, III
There's still no mention of why the Aiel have any tradition of
fighting heavy cavalry.

On this one point, and without addressing the rest of your argument,
I'll have to contradict you. It's apparent from several passages in
tGH, as well as Lan's demonstrated knowledge of Aiel culture and
tactics in tSR, that Aiel and Shienaran forces come into hostile
contact fairly often. There are references in EotW and tGH to a
Shienaran city called Ankor Dail, that "held the Eastern Marches and
guarded the Spine of the World." [EotW: 48, The Blight, p.722 Tor
pb] Masema's service there is the root of his initial prejudice
against the Aiel-looking Rand al'Thor. Ongoing Aiel-Shienaran raids
and hostilities would give the Aiel experience in fighting against
heavy cavalry.

I don't see the passage you're talking about in that chapter, but I
remember it. I had the strong impression that this was during the
Aiel War, not a permanent political feature.

The passage I cited there was just the first mention of Ankor Dail in the
books, along with a brief description of it. It's thrown in among the list
of towns from which forces are coming to ride to Tarwin's Gap. It's a
permanent Shienaran settlement, still existent at the time of the onset of
the book, twenty years after the Aiel War.

Also:

" 'Masema served three years in the Eastern Marches,' Ingtar said. 'At
Ankor Dail, against the Aiel.' " [tGH: 10, The Hunt Begins, p169 Tor pb]
The Aiel War didn't quite last three years. Close, but not quite. Call it
three, if you want, to be generous. But the whole thing didn't take place
there on the Shienaran border. Near as I can tell, none of it did.

Post by John S. Novak, III
Why would the Aiel be raiding Shienar to begin with, when the Trollocs
in the Waste-Blight are just as close in that area?

Damned if I know. General hostility? Distrust of wetlanders? Centuries of
misunderstandings building up to a tradition of regular border skirmishes?
All of the above? Not really good reasons, but plausible ones. I'm sure
there could be others. But for whatever reason, the Aiel apparently have
and do regularly raid along the Shienaran border, and thus have practical
experience against the most bad-ass heavy cavalry that Randland has to
offer.

--
The Indigo Wombat
Marsupial of Might

[Ragnarok73]

Post by John S. Novak, III
You're leaving out material.
The Aiel are woefully inferior in every possible way, on this front.

So a people that has been persecuted and forced into a waste can't deal
with people that can easily become more complacent because they live in a
land of plenty? Better not tell the Israelis this, especially after they
kicked the shit out of their Arab neighbors so many times. They live in an
environment that is more hostile (producing more hardy people), get into
feuds with each other on a regular basis (so they are constantly practicing
their skills in combat), and came from a history of persecution with an
almost-religious belief in a person who will unite them (showing their
ability to unite in a very short time).

Post by John S. Novak, III
There's still no mention of why the Aiel have any tradition of
fighting heavy cavalry.

Someone already mentioned how the Shienarans have engaged in skirmishes
with the Aiel in the first 2 books. Rhuarc also made mention of how
borderlanders used the tactics that Lan talked about against the Aiel
effectively in TSR.

Post by John S. Novak, III
Or how they developed forest tactics when none of them have seen a
tree.

Ok, I think the Aiel might know what a tree is since one of their central
beliefs is the importance of the Tree of Life. In any case, even if they
haven't seen one, it doesn't take much to figure that an area filled with
big pole-like objects would make it hard for men on horses to charge you en
masse, especially over hilly terrain.

Post by John S. Novak, III
It's another area where the Aiel are basically frictionless-- counter
to every military force that has ever existed, the Aiel function, in
hundred thousand man groups, as well as the best single one of them
could be expected to function alone. This included motion (a hundred
thousand Aiel move as fast as the best of them would, running in the
night) and tactics (where one Aiel might be expected to be smart
enough to think of forest tactics, they all do.)
This is just not how it works in the real world.

That's what you have battle leaders for, to just tell the average Aiel
shmoe where to go and who to kill. Besides, when you're used to trying to
hide in an arid wasteland, is it REALLY going to bother you when you come
into a land where there are lots of those aforemention big pole-like objects
all over the place with flat green things covering them that make good
hiding spots for ambushes and stuff? If a person can learn to hide in a
freaking WASTELAND, hiding in a FOREST should be easier than eating pie.

Post by John S. Novak, III
Time to play our home game, "Scrabbling in the dirt for calories!"
Romantic twaddle.

Ha ha. Because we all know that when you live in a harsh environment, you
tend to become weaker than a person who lives in a tropical paradise, right?
The key here is in the mental attitudes of those 2 people- the person in the
harsher clime is forced to become more ruthless and resourceful.

Post by John S. Novak, III
Then it's really not that tough, is it?
More unrealistic advantages to the Aiel-- they're desert warriors from
the land with no food! And they have maize! And tomatoes!

It's not like the Waste is a complete desert ala the Sahara. It's written
to be more like Arizona or northern Mexico in terms of climate and
plant/animal life. The Aiel were written to have been smart enough as well
to build their dwellings inside of large rock formations. In TSR, they also
make mention that there are even still bodies of water like ponds or gullies
in the Waste, albeit small ones, but these could be enough to sustain their
agriculture if they had enough of them.

Post by John S. Novak, III
Enh? Maybe they can drive a herd of fucking cattle across that
desert, too, and have steak every night for dinner.

They have domesticated animals supported by the plants that they
cultivated (eg: zemat). Corn is a staple food for many farm animals as well
as for humans. Point here is that Jordan did a good enough job of
explaining how the Aiel were not only able to survive but to thrive in their
environment.

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by John S. Novak, III
<Snort>

Have some grilled rattlesnake, then tell me you couldn't live on it if you
were in an arid land with little else to eat.

Ragnarok73

[Jeff Walther]

Post by Ragnarok73
Ha ha. Because we all know that when you live in a harsh environment, you
tend to become weaker than a person who lives in a tropical paradise, right?
The key here is in the mental attitudes of those 2 people- the person in the
harsher clime is forced to become more ruthless and resourceful.

No, the key here is who can actually get enough to eat. The point is that
the Aiel should be malnourished and therefore incapable of fighting well,
no matter what their mental attitude. Remember, the truly great generals
study logistics, not tactics.

Post by Ragnarok73
It's not like the Waste is a complete desert ala the Sahara. It's written
to be more like Arizona or northern Mexico in terms of climate and
plant/animal life. The Aiel were written to have been smart enough as well
to build their dwellings inside of large rock formations. In TSR, they also
make mention that there are even still bodies of water like ponds or gullies
in the Waste, albeit small ones, but these could be enough to sustain their
agriculture if they had enough of them.

Uh huh. Ever done any farming in an arid climate? Or even grown a
vegetable garden? Do you know how many people it takes to *hand carry*
water to enough crops to feed ten people. Up and down terraces!??!! I'd
say the number is pretty close to ten. Which doesn't leave anyone to go
around dancing with spears and generally making merry while ready for
mayhem.

Post by Ragnarok73

Post by John S. Novak, III
Enh? Maybe they can drive a herd of fucking cattle across that
desert, too, and have steak every night for dinner.

They have domesticated animals supported by the plants that they
cultivated (eg: zemat). Corn is a staple food for many farm animals as well
as for humans. Point here is that Jordan did a good enough job of
explaining how the Aiel were not only able to survive but to thrive in their
environment.

Oh, great. Now we're growning crops for meat animals too, while hand
carrying the water up and down terraces for the crops. Now you need
something like 50 people carrying water in order to grow enough crops to
feed enough cattle to feed 10 people.

Post by Ragnarok73
Have some grilled rattlesnake, then tell me you couldn't live on it if you
were in an arid land with little else to eat.

Sure I could live on it. Put what are my 100,000 spear brothers going to
eat? I don't see ten divisions of rattle snake slithering up and waiting
to be eaten.

There are figures for this. You're talking about living in a
hunter/gatherer mode in the near-desert. It takes some number of acres
available for foraging per person supported. In a tropical paradise this
number is much lower.

Now, when you compare the concentrated populations of the Aiel to the
acres required to support them in that climate, I think you'll find that
it isn't possible to forage that many acres and return to your population
center. Folks just can't move that fast.

[Ragnarok73]

Post by Jeff Walther
No, the key here is who can actually get enough to eat. The point is that
the Aiel should be malnourished and therefore incapable of fighting well,
no matter what their mental attitude. Remember, the truly great generals
study logistics, not tactics.

Malnourished? How? I thought I just went over how Jordan mentioned plant
life that can in fact thrive in arid climates like maize. Maize is also a
good feed crop for domesticated animals like goats and chickens. Logistics
is the matter of supplying an army during war so I'm not exactly sure how
you're trying to use that word here.

Post by Jeff Walther
Uh huh. Ever done any farming in an arid climate? Or even grown a
vegetable garden? Do you know how many people it takes to *hand carry*
water to enough crops to feed ten people. Up and down terraces!??!! I'd
say the number is pretty close to ten. Which doesn't leave anyone to go
around dancing with spears and generally making merry while ready for
mayhem.

Wells couldn't be used to do things like IRRIGATE crops. In TSR there are
numerous references to the fact that there open bodies of water in the Waste
and so we're not talking about trying to farm in the Sahara. As for the
number of people that do the carrying of water and stuff, you do remember
about *gai'shain*, right? You know, those Aiel that act as servants and
stuff? In TSR, they've already mentioned how those guys take care of the
crops and animals under the direction of Aiel children.

Post by Jeff Walther
Oh, great. Now we're growning crops for meat animals too, while hand
carrying the water up and down terraces for the crops. Now you need
something like 50 people carrying water in order to grow enough crops to
feed enough cattle to feed 10 people.

Cattle? Where did beef ever come into this? We're talking about chickens
and goats here, not a Bonanza-style cattle range. John was being facetious,
but the fact is where you can grow crops on a regular basis, you can support
domesticated animals albeit ones better suited to living in that climate.

Post by Jeff Walther
Sure I could live on it. Put what are my 100,000 spear brothers going to
eat? I don't see ten divisions of rattle snake slithering up and waiting
to be eaten.

The references to eating gara and other creepy-crawlies is simply Jordan's
way of illustrating that the Aiel have learned to eat ANYTHING they can to
survive in the Waste. That's why they're constantly referred to as "hardy".

Post by Jeff Walther
There are figures for this. You're talking about living in a
hunter/gatherer mode in the near-desert. It takes some number of acres
available for foraging per person supported. In a tropical paradise this
number is much lower.

Hunter-gatherer? Sure, the Aiel started as nomads when they broke off
from the Jenn, but they've since settled down into an agriculture-based
system. They're not "scrabbling in the dirt for food". If the Mexicans can
survive in their climate, why the hell can't the Aiel?

Post by Jeff Walther
Now, when you compare the concentrated populations of the Aiel to the
acres required to support them in that climate, I think you'll find that
it isn't possible to forage that many acres and return to your population
center. Folks just can't move that fast.

Again with the foraging. The reference to the rattlesnake is just to show
how the Aiel have learned like most people forced to survive in a hostile
climate learn to do whatever is necessary.

Ragnarok73

[David Chapman]

Post by Ragnarok73

Post by Jeff Walther
No, the key here is who can actually get enough to eat. The point
is that the Aiel should be malnourished and therefore incapable of
fighting well, no matter what their mental attitude. Remember, the
truly great generals study logistics, not tactics.

Malnourished? How? I thought I just went over how Jordan
mentioned plant life that can in fact thrive in arid climates like
maize.

Remind me again why they call it the Aiel *Waste*?

[Abdullah Emran Yousuf]

Post by David Chapman
Remind me again why they call it the Aiel *Waste*?

Not by the Aiel.

[David Chapman]

Abdullah Emran Yousuf did not say this. Abdullah Emran Yousuf was not

Post by Abdullah Emran Yousuf

Post by David Chapman
Remind me again why they call it the Aiel *Waste*?

Not by the Aiel.

Would you like to remind everyone of why the Aiel call it the Three-Fold
Land and make yourself look like an idiot, or do you want me to do it for
you? I don't mind.

[Abdullah Emran Yousuf]

Post by David Chapman
Would you like to remind everyone of why the Aiel call it the Three-Fold
Land and make yourself look like an idiot, or do you want me to do it for
you? I don't mind.

So much hostility, but nevermind. What I was saying if it wasn't obvious is
that it isn't a waste to the Aiel because they abviously know how get what
they need from the land. Yes ofcourse the Aiel waste is harder to live on but
it's not impossible. It is not pre-European Australia, it is like the Sahel
or Mexico. There isn't much open water but there are still aquafiers and
oasis(sp?) and water from there is used efficiently to farm what they need,
ie cotton, corn, beans, peppers, and you can support some animals goats,
chickens yes; horses maybe but they would definitely be rare and only used
for transport. especially since they don't seem to have camels, llamas or
even donkeys.

How the Aiel can form a society that seem to kick everyone elses asses well
emmmm yeah. But they can support the populations that they seem to have
especially since they don't have many deaths from disease, everyday injuries
and the big one they probably have very low infant mortality. The whole Aiel
fighting code precludes pregnant women and young children from violence. But
it is probably unrealsitic to have they huge army sizes they seem to have.
Sure some of the societies have functions other than fighting, but 500k
armies are a joke.

cheers
Emran

[Ragnarok73]

Post by Ragnarok73

Post by Ragnarok73
Wells couldn't be used to do things like IRRIGATE crops. In TSR there are

numerous references to the fact that there open bodies of water in the Waste
and so we're not talking about trying to farm in the Sahara.

Please, cite?

Imre Stand and its small pool in TSR (chapter 37) is one example. Here's
a better example:
"The Jenn had made things to draw up water and spill it into great stone
basins. He had fought battles over less water than one of those tanks held,
with people walking by as though water was of no consequence." - TSR,
chapter 25 `The Road to the Spear', pg.405
Jordan wasn't quite dumb enough to write the Waste as being an utter
desert completely devoid of open water or wells from which water can be
drawn. It's just a much harsher land than someplace like Andor.

And I guess the gai'shan, themselves, have no nutitional needs. They
just pound themselves into malnurishment and ultimately death, expending
their own calories to raise the foodstuffs needed for the community at
large.

Again, where there's open water even if it's harder to find, agriculture
can be supported. And the gai'shain are the ones handling the labour.

Exactly how many seven foot warriors, their sister-wives, their children
and their gai'shan can one feed from a gara? How many gara would one
need to feed one household one meal on any one given day?

The creepy-crawlies supplement the Aiel's agriculture- I never said they
live solely on them.

Where do all those gara/bloodsnakes/motai come from? What do *they* eat?

They probably eat bugs or whatever lizards that live in arid climates
survive on- cannabalism is also a possibility.

Because Mexico is not a waterless waste.

And as a result of the chapters I cited in TSR, hopefully you understand
that neither is the Three-Fold Land.

Ragnarok73

[Davian]

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by Ragnarok73

Post by Ragnarok73
Wells couldn't be used to do things like IRRIGATE crops. In TSR

there are

Post by Ragnarok73
numerous references to the fact that there open bodies of water in the

Waste

Post by Ragnarok73
and so we're not talking about trying to farm in the Sahara.

Please, cite?

Imre Stand and its small pool in TSR (chapter 37) is one example.

Here's

Post by John S. Novak, III
"The Jenn had made things to draw up water and spill it into great stone
basins. He had fought battles over less water than one of those tanks held,
with people walking by as though water was of no consequence." - TSR,
chapter 25 `The Road to the Spear', pg.405

Very good evidence. Of course, it is evidence you are wrong. But very
good evidence none the less.

[Ragnarok73]

Do you have shit for brains?

Ah yes, David's usual fall-back argument finally kicks in.

Yes, people forced into a barren waste *do* have less MATERIAL than those

who live in a land of plenty.

People CAN survive in a land that isn't a complete desert- just look at
Mexico. We're also not talking about a huge technological gap between the
Aiel and the rest of Randland since they're all at the same sword-and-bow
level. When Mat finally builds his first firearm and he's still having a
hard time with the Aiel or anyone else, then I'll start to question Jordan's
sanity, k?

.... and are heavily supported by the Americans.

Having the most technologically-advanced weaponry doesn't mean shit if you
don't know how to use it effectively. The Israelis are more motivated than
their Arab neighbours which leads them to learn military techniques faster
and better.

One thing to imagine it, another to actually do it.

Yes, a people used to trying to hide in an arid waste really must have
been perturbed when they came into a land where there were big pole-like
objects to hide behind/in/on, not to mention lots of hilly uneven terrain
perfect for setting up ambushes and other hit-and-run tactics in. Oh woe
was them.

Which does him no good if he's starving.

Yeah, like all of those Mexicans are, right? Face it, it's possible,
therefore it's plausible even IF there weren't these women among the Aiel
that could use a supernatural force (the One Power) that I heard is useful
as a plot device. Jesus, I must be tired of waiting for the next book as
well if I let myself leave lurkerdom to get into this kind of argument.

Ragnarok73

[Zdenek Dvorak]

Hello,

Post by Ragnarok73
People CAN survive in a land that isn't a complete desert- just look at

[snip]

Post by Ragnarok73
Mexico. We're also not talking about a huge technological gap between the
Aiel and the rest of Randland since they're all at the same sword-and-bow
level. When Mat finally builds his first firearm and he's still having a
hard time with the Aiel or anyone else, then I'll start to question Jordan's
sanity, k?

nope. Primitive guns were not of much use in combat, due to their lack
of precision and long recharging times. Citing what I read somewhere
(can't just remember where) about guns Hussites used in battles:
"Great to frighten horses."

Zdenek

[Zdenek Dvorak]

Hello,

Post by Zdenek Dvorak

Post by Zdenek Dvorak
nope. Primitive guns were not of much use in combat, due to

their lack

Post by Zdenek Dvorak
of precision and long recharging times. Citing what I read somewhere
"Great to frighten horses."

I'm assuming that Mat won't just build primitive rifles but also cannons
(hence the riddle of the bellfounder that Aludra put to him in PoD) and
rockets (something else he was speculating on with Aludra in the same book).
Those combined will have a greater effect than rifles alone and won't just
be frightening horses.

what you base this assumption on? They are in about the same stage
as when the guns were developed historically; I don't see any reason
why they should have any advantage.

(btw. the gun I speak about was basically a primitive kind of canon, of
course. In these times, they lacked skill to make anything more
involved which would hold intact under the presure).

Zdenek

[Ragnarok73]

Anyone with sense would assume that Mat would build cannons before he
develops matchlocks - this being the necessary technological progression.

Meh, I wasn't the one mentioning rifles first- I too feel that cannons
will be the result of Aludra's riddle. Of course, I'm wondering WHEN since
Mat doesn't do any pondering of this at all in CoT that I could recall.

Ragnarok73

[John S. Novak, III]

Post by Ragnarok73

Post by John S. Novak, III
You're leaving out material.
The Aiel are woefully inferior in every possible way, on this front.

So a people that has been persecuted and forced into a waste can't deal
with people that can easily become more complacent because they live in a
land of plenty?

Having plenty means having plenty of economic base to fight with.

Post by Ragnarok73
Better not tell the Israelis this, especially after they
kicked the shit out of their Arab neighbors so many times.

Apples and oranges. The Israelis are not quasi-medievaloids, they are
an industrial and information age society that understands capitlism and
economics in general, and is by far wealthier for that reason.

That really demonstrates my point more than attacks it. Israel's per
capita GDP is about $19,000; Egypt's is a paltry $3,900, Syria's is
$3,500, Iraq's (probably not representative) is $2,400, etc. Even the
Arab economic heavyweights of Iran and Saudi Arabia come in at only
$7,000, and $10,500 respectively, and they're drenched in oil. Israel
does this through industry and whips their asses.

Gee, I wonder why they have better toys and the luxury to train
effectively?

Post by Ragnarok73

Post by John S. Novak, III
Or how they developed forest tactics when none of them have seen a
tree.

Ok, I think the Aiel might know what a tree is since one of their central
beliefs is the importance of the Tree of Life.

That's nice.
It's a long step from, "There is a thing called a tree, in Rhuidean"
to effective tactics.

Post by Ragnarok73

Post by John S. Novak, III
It's another area where the Aiel are basically frictionless-- counter
to every military force that has ever existed, the Aiel function, in
hundred thousand man groups, as well as the best single one of them
could be expected to function alone. This included motion (a hundred
thousand Aiel move as fast as the best of them would, running in the
night) and tactics (where one Aiel might be expected to be smart
enough to think of forest tactics, they all do.)
This is just not how it works in the real world.

That's what you have battle leaders for, to just tell the average Aiel
shmoe where to go and who to kill.

This does not get rid of friction.
This leads to people waiting around to hear where they're supposed to
go and march.

Post by Ragnarok73
Besides, when you're used to trying to
hide in an arid wasteland, is it REALLY going to bother you when you come
into a land where there are lots of those aforemention big pole-like objects
all over the place with flat green things covering them that make good
hiding spots for ambushes and stuff? If a person can learn to hide in a
freaking WASTELAND, hiding in a FOREST should be easier than eating pie.

The real question is, why are they *better at it than the wetlanders?*
It's a ridiculous asymmetry.

Post by Ragnarok73

Post by John S. Novak, III
Time to play our home game, "Scrabbling in the dirt for calories!"
Romantic twaddle.

Ha ha. Because we all know that when you live in a harsh environment, you
tend to become weaker than a person who lives in a tropical paradise, right?

Tell you what-- I will live in the lush paradise of my apartment, with
2,000 calories a day, an exercise cycle and a soloflex machine. You
will live in whatever hellhole you can find on 800 calories a day.

In three months, we will fight.
I will win.

Post by Ragnarok73

Post by John S. Novak, III
Then it's really not that tough, is it?
More unrealistic advantages to the Aiel-- they're desert warriors from
the land with no food! And they have maize! And tomatoes!

It's not like the Waste is a complete desert ala the Sahara. It's written
to be more like Arizona or northern Mexico in terms of climate and
plant/animal life.

It is in some cases written inconsistently, but most of the witnesses
describe it as utterly bleak and barren. The sort of place where
having enough water is a running concern.

Except when they need a spare 10,000 tons of it to march an impromptu
bunch of armies across it. Then, hey, no problem.

Post by Ragnarok73
The Aiel were written to have been smart enough as well
to build their dwellings inside of large rock formations. In TSR, they also
make mention that there are even still bodies of water like ponds or gullies
in the Waste, albeit small ones, but these could be enough to sustain their
agriculture if they had enough of them.

Then they wouldn't be fighting over them.

Post by Ragnarok73

Post by John S. Novak, III
Enh? Maybe they can drive a herd of fucking cattle across that
desert, too, and have steak every night for dinner.

They have domesticated animals supported by the plants that they
cultivated (eg: zemat). Corn is a staple food for many farm animals as well
as for humans. Point here is that Jordan did a good enough job of
explaining how the Aiel were not only able to survive but to thrive in their
environment.

No, he didn't.

[Richard Boye']

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by Ragnarok73
The Aiel were written to have been smart enough as well
to build their dwellings inside of large rock formations. In TSR, they also
make mention that there are even still bodies of water like ponds or gullies
in the Waste, albeit small ones, but these could be enough to sustain their
agriculture if they had enough of them.

Then they wouldn't be fighting over them.

Water is so scarce in the waste that:

a) Aviendha and her Maidens are mesmerized by a pool of standing water
wider than they can step over
b) the Aiel will stick each other with their spears for that same pool
c) The Aiel had never heard of *drowning*.
d) When, somehow, and in defiance of all logistics, the laws of human
physiology and nutrition, and in contempt of Malthus, seem to
overpopulate and therefore overtax the local water supply, they have the
Wise Ones use Need in T'A'R to take them to a new pool of water no wider
than they can step across.

The notion that the Wise Ones are drowsing new sources of water from
ancient aquifers is ludicrous, since we know that they *don't* do that.

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by Ragnarok73

Post by John S. Novak, III
Enh? Maybe they can drive a herd of fucking cattle across that
desert, too, and have steak every night for dinner.

They have domesticated animals supported by the plants that they
cultivated (eg: zemat). Corn is a staple food for many farm animals as well
as for humans. Point here is that Jordan did a good enough job of
explaining how the Aiel were not only able to survive but to thrive in their
environment.

No, he didn't.

Sure he did.

They eat sand. Their goats, chickens and cattle also eat sand.

Yummy.

[Ian Hurst]

Post by Richard Boye'
a) Aviendha and her Maidens are mesmerized by a pool of standing water
wider than they can step over
b) the Aiel will stick each other with their spears for that same pool
c) The Aiel had never heard of *drowning*.
d) When, somehow, and in defiance of all logistics, the laws of human
physiology and nutrition, and in contempt of Malthus, seem to
overpopulate and therefore overtax the local water supply, they have the
Wise Ones use Need in T'A'R to take them to a new pool of water no wider
than they can step across.
The notion that the Wise Ones are drowsing new sources of water from

^^^^^^^^

Post by Richard Boye'
ancient aquifers is ludicrous, since we know that they *don't* do that.

Dowsing, I think you mean. Which reminds me of one of my favorite
ever dowsing article on James Randi's site. The juicy bit:

http://www.randi.org/jr/09-10-2000.html

"But where, you may be asking, have I heard of the Polk County School
Board before? I looked into my files, and found that back in 1996, the
Polk County school system spent nearly $3,000 to buy three of the
glamorous "Quadro Trackers" that were advertised to locate drugs in
school lockers by matching "molecular emissions" from the substance
being sought with identical emissions recorded on a locator card, or
chip. When a Federal agency lab tested the device, it not only didn't
work, but the "chip" wasn't a chip at all, and held only a few ant
corpses in epoxy. I kid you not. No emissions."

Ant corpses! Christ.

[snip]

[David Chapman]

Post by Richard Boye'
The notion that the Wise Ones are drowsing new sources of water

^^^^^^^^

Was that a tyop? Because it seems like one hell of an appropriate word to
describe seeking out water in a light, dreaming sleep.

[David Chapman]

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by Ragnarok73
Ha ha. Because we all know that when you live in a harsh
environment, you tend to become weaker than a person who lives in a
tropical paradise, right?

Tell you what-- I will live in the lush paradise of my apartment, with
2,000 calories a day, an exercise cycle and a soloflex machine. You
will live in whatever hellhole you can find on 800 calories a day.
In three months, we will fight.
I will win.

And I will sell the tickets. Now, who wants the concession stand gig?

[John S. Novak, III]

Post by Dave Rothgery
As opposed to borderlanders, who have to live in the Frozen North and
fight Trollocs? Bullshit.
We'd also note that living in a desert means that you'll get less food,
and less variety in what you get. This is definitely a disadvantage.

Just so.

Barbarians often have a quaint notion that living out in the
uncivilized waste, scratching and scrabbling for food and occasionally
mounting a raid on your neighbors so you can steal his pittance from
him makes for a ruthlessly tough and manically efficient killing
machine of an army.

This quaint romance of the rough life is, of course, patent bullshit.

Wealthy societies can afford far more resources to their fighting
classes. Wealthy societies can afford the luxury of specialized
fighting classes in larger and more effective proportion than their
barbarian natives. And those specialized classes can, because they
are supported by better economic activity from below, can afford to
concentrate on the scholarship and the essentials of professional
war-- can regard war *as* a profession-- making them far, far more
dangerous.

Of course there are occasional patches of bad luck. There are bad
weather conditions, plagues, stupid commanders, and occasionally there
are overwhelming numbers, or truly decrepit and decadent societies.
But in any kind of long run measured in decades, the barbarians get
their hairy asscheeks handed back to them on a platter.

[Michael Martin]

John S. Novak, III wrote:

[snip spot-on text on why wealthy societies can, overall, create
better fighters]

Post by John S. Novak, III
But in any kind of long run measured in decades, the barbarians get
their hairy asscheeks handed back to them on a platter.

Whatever gripes one may have with the movie _Gladiator_, the opening
battle is a splendid example of this. Hairy asscheeks and all.

--
Michael Martin
Fides quaerens intellectum.
Credo ut intelligum.

[David Chapman]

Post by Michael Martin
[snip spot-on text on why wealthy societies can, overall, create
better fighters]

Post by John S. Novak, III
But in any kind of long run measured in decades, the barbarians get
their hairy asscheeks handed back to them on a platter.

Whatever gripes one may have with the movie _Gladiator_, the opening
battle is a splendid example of this.

The opening battle *is* my biggest gripe with Gladiator. See those Romans
not fighting in formation and getting killed in far greater numbers than
ever normally happened? Maximus wouldn't have been considered a great
general - he'd have been crucified on the Appian Way.

[Michael Martin]

Post by David Chapman
The opening battle *is* my biggest gripe with Gladiator. See those
Romans not fighting in formation and getting killed in far greater
numbers than ever normally happened? Maximus wouldn't have been
considered a great general - he'd have been crucified on the Appian
Way.

Yeah, you're right. I was thinking of before hand-to-hand actually
began - there's a lovely shot of a phalanx marching towards the hairy
horde, as the legions continue to pelt the enemy with catapult shot.
Once the fighting actually began, Scott has it devolving into a
confusing melee.

--
Michael Martin
Fides quaerens intellectum.
Credo ut intelligum.

[Owen Pope]

Post by Dave Rothgery

Post by John S. Novak, III
No, it's not.
In a stand up fight against heavy infantry, light
infantry lose. Why? Well, because, the heavy infantry
have better armor and better shields and often better
weapons.

A smart commander does NOT use light cavalry in a stand
up fight then, as
the Aiel do not. They basically use the same tactics that
the Mongol armies used in their campaigns in Eastern
Europe against larger armies equipped with heavy armored
cavalry.

They can't. The Aiel don't have horses. Allowing Aiel to
keep up with horses is a fantastic element in WoT, just as
the One Power is.

That's the thing, though. It isn't.

http://www.ultrarunning.com/archives/brannen.htm

Given a large enough group of these people, you could have
something like the Mongol Hordes.
What's fantastic is that they are able to feed hundreds of
thousands of people who are running 50+ miles per day. That's
a lot of calories.

It seems more than a bit unrealistic that ALL of their old
people and non-combatants can display that kind of stamina,
however.

Post by Dave Rothgery

You make it sound like they learned some sort of
mystical technique in the
Waste. Real simple: they're tougher than wetlanders cause
they have to live in a desert.

We'd also note that living in a desert means that you'll
get less food, and less variety in what you get. This is
definitely a disadvantage.

This is what's most ridiculous about the Aiel. We have
hundreds of thousands of these 6-7 foot tall giant ninja
ultramarathoners. Nowhere (to my knowledge) has there EVER
been a race of such huge people living on such meager food
supplies. It seems completely impossible to have such a tall
populace, when you consider that the average height for pre-
industrial European men was somewhere in the low 5 feet.

-Owen

[John S. Novak, III]

Post by Owen Pope

Post by Dave Rothgery
They can't. The Aiel don't have horses. Allowing Aiel to
keep up with horses is a fantastic element in WoT, just as
the One Power is.

That's the thing, though. It isn't.
http://www.ultrarunning.com/archives/brannen.htm
Given a large enough group of these people, you could have
something like the Mongol Hordes.

One notices that those anecdotes show one or two people at a time
making those extreme distances. Not ten. Not a hundred. Certainly
not a hundred *thousand*, and fighting a battle after it. They're all
noted as being messengers if they have any military function at all.

One should also note that a hundred thousand people do not move at the
speed of the fastest among them. They don't even move at the speed of
the slowest among them. Picture the Washington DC beltway around rush
hour to get an idea of what goes on here.

[Owen Pope]

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by Owen Pope

Post by Dave Rothgery
They can't. The Aiel don't have horses. Allowing Aiel to
keep up with horses is a fantastic element in WoT, just
as the One Power is.

That's the thing, though. It isn't.
http://www.ultrarunning.com/archives/brannen.htm
Given a large enough group of these people, you could have
something like the Mongol Hordes.

One notices that those anecdotes show one or two people at
a time making those extreme distances. Not ten. Not a
hundred. Certainly not a hundred *thousand*, and fighting
a battle after it. They're all noted as being messengers
if they have any military function at all.
One should also note that a hundred thousand people do not
move at the speed of the fastest among them. They don't
even move at the speed of the slowest among them. Picture
the Washington DC beltway around rush hour to get an idea
of what goes on here.

Certainly not an army complete with camp followers, wise
women, supplies, support (blacksmiths, gai'shain, etc.). But
it isn't unreasonable to think that a substantial numbers
couldn't manage that during a battle, when they would have
less to hinder their mobility.

-Owen

[Frank van Schie]

Post by Owen Pope
Certainly not an army complete with camp followers, wise
women, supplies, support (blacksmiths, gai'shain, etc.). But
it isn't unreasonable to think that a substantial numbers
couldn't manage that during a battle, when they would have
less to hinder their mobility.

It is, though. There's obstacles consisting of your fellow warriors,
dead bodies, boulders you can't see, that sort of thing. It's very hard
to sprint at full tilt while in a group of people, limiting your range
of vision towards the ground to about 3-6 feet.

Also, you have to keep frontlines in check. It'd suck if you were ready
to throw your three spears, only to find a halberd speeding down towards
an appointment with your face.

[David Chapman]

Because they don't have heavy cavalry to fight against, to develop
the strategies and tactics. This shit doesn't spring full blown from
the mind of Zeus, you know.
The Poles were, in fact, idiots at Leignitz. They were
undisciplined and uncoordinated, whereas the Shienarans--
because they fight the fucking Trollocs on a weekly basis-- are not.

You can't argue that the Aiel can't come up with tactics to fight heavy
cavalry in an instant, while at the same time argue that the Shienarans can
come up with tactics to fight the Aiel in that manner.

[John S. Novak, III]

Post by David Chapman

The Poles were, in fact, idiots at Leignitz. They were
undisciplined and uncoordinated, whereas the Shienarans--
because they fight the fucking Trollocs on a weekly basis-- are not.

You can't argue that the Aiel can't come up with tactics to fight heavy
cavalry in an instant, while at the same time argue that the Shienarans can
come up with tactics to fight the Aiel in that manner.

I can argue that light infantry is not unknown in Randland, though.

[David Chapman]

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by David Chapman

The Poles were, in fact, idiots at Leignitz. They were
undisciplined and uncoordinated, whereas the Shienarans--
because they fight the fucking Trollocs on a weekly basis-- are not.

You can't argue that the Aiel can't come up with tactics to fight
heavy cavalry in an instant, while at the same time argue that the
Shienarans can come up with tactics to fight the Aiel in that manner.

I can argue that light infantry is not unknown in Randland, though.

You can, but I don't recall seeing any established force of light infantry -
certainly not one comparable to the Aiel. Most nations seem to use cavalry
and heavy pike. Who have I forgotten?

[Lara Beaton]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:03:27 +0100, "David Chapman"

Post by David Chapman

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by David Chapman

The Poles were, in fact, idiots at Leignitz. They were
undisciplined and uncoordinated, whereas the Shienarans--
because they fight the fucking Trollocs on a weekly basis-- are not.

You can't argue that the Aiel can't come up with tactics to fight
heavy cavalry in an instant, while at the same time argue that the
Shienarans can come up with tactics to fight the Aiel in that manner.

I can argue that light infantry is not unknown in Randland, though.

You can, but I don't recall seeing any established force of light infantry -
certainly not one comparable to the Aiel. Most nations seem to use cavalry
and heavy pike. Who have I forgotten?

Cairhien. Mayene. Tear.

Perhaps not comparable in fighting skills to the Aiel, but they do
have light infantry.

[Leigh Butler]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:03:27 +0100, "David Chapman"

Post by David Chapman

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by David Chapman

The Poles were, in fact, idiots at Leignitz. They were
undisciplined and uncoordinated, whereas the Shienarans--
because they fight the fucking Trollocs on a weekly basis-- are not.

You can't argue that the Aiel can't come up with tactics to fight
heavy cavalry in an instant, while at the same time argue that the
Shienarans can come up with tactics to fight the Aiel in that manner.

I can argue that light infantry is not unknown in Randland, though.

You can, but I don't recall seeing any established force of light infantry -
certainly not one comparable to the Aiel. Most nations seem to use cavalry
and heavy pike. Who have I forgotten?

I was under the impression that the Saldaean horsemen with Bashere
were light cavalry, but that's based on all the fancy tricks they were
doing in LOC and ACOS. *shrug* All I know is, it's kind of hard to do
handsprings or whatever on a horse if you're heavily armoured.

Also, the Band of the Red Hand (I think) uses light cavalry tactics.

[Dave Rothgery]

Post by Leigh Butler
I was under the impression that the Saldaean horsemen with Bashere
were light cavalry, but that's based on all the fancy tricks they were
doing in LOC and ACOS. *shrug* All I know is, it's kind of hard to do
handsprings or whatever on a horse if you're heavily armoured.

IIRC, Saldeans are stereotypically the best light cav in Randland.

Post by Leigh Butler
Also, the Band of the Red Hand (I think) uses light cavalry tactics.

Not too much. They're primarily a heavy cav (the Tairen and Cairhein
nobles and their armsmen)/heavy infantry force, with small groups of
light cav (Mat's scouts) and archers.

[John S. Novak, III]

Post by Dave Rothgery

Post by Leigh Butler
I was under the impression that the Saldaean horsemen with Bashere
were light cavalry, but that's based on all the fancy tricks they were
doing in LOC and ACOS. *shrug* All I know is, it's kind of hard to do
handsprings or whatever on a horse if you're heavily armoured.

IIRC, Saldeans are stereotypically the best light cav in Randland.

They are very much light cavalry.

Post by Dave Rothgery

Post by Leigh Butler
Also, the Band of the Red Hand (I think) uses light cavalry tactics.

Not too much. They're primarily a heavy cav (the Tairen and Cairhein
nobles and their armsmen)/heavy infantry force, with small groups of
light cav (Mat's scouts) and archers.

The Band is a combined arms force, with Roman discipline and attention
to detail and fortification.

In general, there seems to be a north-south split of cavalry vs
infantry and an east-west split on heavy vs light. This leads me to
believe that the southwestern nations would have light infantry even
though it hasn't been seen much.

[Dave Rothgery]

Post by John S. Novak, III
In general, there seems to be a north-south split of cavalry vs
infantry and an east-west split on heavy vs light. This leads me to
believe that the southwestern nations would have light infantry even
though it hasn't been seen much.

Eh.
Tear and Amadacia (or at least the Children of the Light) definitely
leaned to cavalry, in the former case for cultural reasons, and in the
latter because it was pretty much necessary.

[David Chapman]

Post by Dave Rothgery

Post by John S. Novak, III
In general, there seems to be a north-south split of cavalry vs
infantry and an east-west split on heavy vs light. This leads me to
believe that the southwestern nations would have light infantry even
though it hasn't been seen much.

Eh.
Tear and Amadacia (or at least the Children of the Light) definitely
leaned to cavalry, in the former case for cultural reasons, and in the
latter because it was pretty much necessary.

Well, Tear is south-western, but the point remains.

Army composition is more often defined by terrain. Where you have forests,
you build light infantry or skirmishers; hills, heavy infantry; plains,
cavalry that gets lighter the more ground you have to cover. The exceptions
are usually cultural or caused by lack of material - you don't build cavalry
if you have few horses, for example.

[Peter McLaughlin]

Post by David Chapman
You can't argue that the Aiel can't come up with tactics to fight heavy
cavalry in an instant, while at the same time argue that the Shienarans can
come up with tactics to fight the Aiel in that manner.

Just a point from a long time lurker. Don't the Shienarians and Aiel
fight each other all the time up near the border post of Ankor Dail?
I seem to remember that it was from this fighting that Masema got his
scar, and his bad attitude towards Rand in the early books. Another
mention was in the FoH, when I think Rand, asks Lan how the
Shienarians fight the Aiel.

So the Aiel have had experience against heavy cavalry. How much this
would help them I don't know.

[Zdenek Dvorak]

Hello,

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by Zdenek Dvorak
it is however reasonable to assume that they may overpower any other
infantry (a wariors trained for all their life for fight versus
band of poorly trained recruits ment only as a support for cavalry).

No, it's not.
In a stand up fight against heavy infantry, light infantry lose. Why?
Well, because, the heavy infantry have better armor and better
shields and often better weapons.

this however assumes that they have it; but most Randlander nobility
does not consider infantry important enough. So while cavalry is surely
well equipped and trained, infantry consists mostly of recruits gathered
in haste, underequipped and untrained. This of course does not apply
to Borderlands, but iirc they did not take part in wars with Aiels.

Zdenek

[Frank van Schie]

So why is it so unbelievable that the Aiel could also use these same
tactics against the poorer-trained and much less-disciplined wetlander
armies of Randland?

They're not that bad, you know. Just Elayne's army consists of a bunch
of ignorant conscripts. The rest are pretty tough.

the idea of a fort or town ludicrous. Finally, you add in a value system
based off of your average nomadic tribal existence (again, we look to TSR
for this when we're seeing the history of the Aiel through Rand's eyes at
Rhuidean). You basically have a force that is practically a mirror of the
Mongol hordes except for the fact that they don't ride horses.

Ah, I can chip in with factoids.

The Mongols had heavy cavalry and light cavalry. A much-used tactic
would be that heavy cavalry would be in front, light cavalry would hang
back. If the heavies came under attack, they'd hold their positions
while the lights swept in and slashed into the back of the attackers,
hit'n'run style.

Ie., they had heavy soldiers who could stand their ground without being
slaughtered. The Aiel don't.

They're just as mobile, just as high in endurance, just as
well-disciplined, and use almost exactly the same tactics.

Impossible. An average horse can gallop or charge faster than an average
athletic human can run, meaning that on a battlefield (which the average
warhorse can gallop across without dropping down dead), Aiel would be
outmaneuvered.

Outmaneuvered, and lightly armored. That should make them arrowfodder.
Or, given your lack of faith in Randlander armies, send in crossbowmen.
Give a peasant a crossbow and a five minute crash course, and him and
five hundred of his buddies will decimate a force like the Aiel.
Provided their flanks are protected by heavy cavalry.

Read historical accounts of the Battle of
Wahlstadt in 1241 if you want to see how the Mongols demonstrated how a
faster more lightly-armored force could DECIMATE an army based on heavy
cavalry. Jordan must have studied the campaign of Subotai's armies when he
was at the Citadels like any would-be officer worth his salt should since he
mirrored the same tactic used in that battle when Mat confronted Couladin in
TFoH.

The Mongols made heavy use of ranged combat, there, which they managed
to do because they were quicker than the opponents' horses. They also
relied on trickery, which the Aiel don't.

The comparison doesn't quite work.

[Ragnarok73]

Post by Frank van Schie
They're not that bad, you know. Just Elayne's army consists of a bunch
of ignorant conscripts. The rest are pretty tough.

The Cairhienin did have lots of fighting experience from killing each
other in the civil war, but the Tairens? Tough is a relative thing but I'm
talking about pain threshold and ability to fight even when wounded- the
Aiel are written in the books to have a pretty large advantage in that
regard over the rest of Randland.

Post by Frank van Schie
Ah, I can chip in with factoids.
The Mongols had heavy cavalry and light cavalry. A much-used tactic
would be that heavy cavalry would be in front, light cavalry would hang
back. If the heavies came under attack, they'd hold their positions
while the lights swept in and slashed into the back of the attackers,
hit'n'run style.
Ie., they had heavy soldiers who could stand their ground without being
slaughtered. The Aiel don't.

The Mongol heavy cavalry could only be called that because of the lamellar
armor that they wore unlike light which had none at all. But even their
armor didn't come close to matching that of the typical European army of
that time. BTW, the heavy cavalry of the Mongols would usually only engage
the enemy once the light had done their job by drawing them in or breaking
up their ranks with copious amounts of arrow fire. They DIDN'T just sit
there waiting to engage the enemy at close quarters.

Post by Frank van Schie
Impossible. An average horse can gallop or charge faster than an average
athletic human can run, meaning that on a battlefield (which the average
warhorse can gallop across without dropping down dead), Aiel would be
outmaneuvered.

Yes, if the Aiel frequently fought them on open ground which they usually
didn't. Don't forget the terrain of Cairhien (forested hills) which pretty
much negates the speed and maneuverability of cavalry. And your average
warhorse, however well-trained, could never match the mental discipline of a
well-trained human in a fight especially after it's been shot with an arrow
or hamstrung.

Post by Frank van Schie
Outmaneuvered, and lightly armored. That should make them arrowfodder.
Or, given your lack of faith in Randlander armies, send in crossbowmen.
Give a peasant a crossbow and a five minute crash course, and him and
five hundred of his buddies will decimate a force like the Aiel.
Provided their flanks are protected by heavy cavalry.

Jesus, does EVERYONE here think the Aiel or ANYONE else for that matter
would be dumb enough to charge a massed force of bowmen in a frontal
assault? Go on and find me the passages in the books that support this
theory. The closest I can think of is Dumai Wells in LoC, but that doesn't
count still since the Aiel were given artillery support by the Wise Ones
using the Power.

Post by Frank van Schie
The Mongols made heavy use of ranged combat, there, which they managed
to do because they were quicker than the opponents' horses. They also
relied on trickery, which the Aiel don't.

Oh yes, the Aiel never use trickery, hmmm? Read TSR again in chapter 44
where Daerid mentions that Mat's tactic of using a feigned retreat against
Couladin's force is turning the Aiel's own tactics against them.

Ragnarok73

[David Chapman]

Post by Ragnarok73
Jesus, does EVERYONE here think the Aiel or ANYONE else for that
matter would be dumb enough to charge a massed force of bowmen in a
frontal assault? Go on and find me the passages in the books that
support this theory.

The Siege of Tar Valon. Now shut the fuck up.

[Zdenek Dvorak]

Hello,

Post by David Chapman

Post by Ragnarok73
Jesus, does EVERYONE here think the Aiel or ANYONE else for that
matter would be dumb enough to charge a massed force of bowmen in a
frontal assault? Go on and find me the passages in the books that
support this theory.

The Siege of Tar Valon. Now shut the fuck up.

Aiel did not siege Tar Valon. They just fought a battle near it.

Zdenek

[David Chapman]

Post by Zdenek Dvorak
Hello,

Post by David Chapman

Post by Ragnarok73
Jesus, does EVERYONE here think the Aiel or ANYONE else for that
matter would be dumb enough to charge a massed force of bowmen in a
frontal assault? Go on and find me the passages in the books that
support this theory.

The Siege of Tar Valon. Now shut the fuck up.

Aiel did not siege Tar Valon. They just fought a battle near it.

You're right; I'm misremembering. However, the Aiel *did* sack several
walled cities during the War (including Cairhien) and so the point still
stands.

[Ragnarok73]

--
"Life is warfare and the sojourn of a stranger in a strange land." - Marcus
Aurelius

Post by David Chapman

Post by Ragnarok73
Jesus, does EVERYONE here think the Aiel or ANYONE else for that
matter would be dumb enough to charge a massed force of bowmen in a
frontal assault? Go on and find me the passages in the books that
support this theory.

The Siege of Tar Valon. Now shut the fuck up.

Ah, your fingers got ahead of your brain again, I see- the Siege of Tar
Valon is the term being used in these last 2 books (WH and CoT) for whatever
it is Egwene and Co are supposedly doing right now. The Battle of the
Shining Walls is the term used to describe that final conflict of the Aiel
War, dope. The Aiel never actually sieged the city itself since their key
objective was always to kill Laman who was dumb enough to stay outside the
city.

Ragnarok73

[Frank van Schie]

Post by Frank van Schie
The Mongols made heavy use of ranged combat, there, which they
managed to do because they were quicker than the opponents'
horses. They also relied on trickery, which the Aiel don't.
The comparison doesn't quite work.

Not that the Aiel are any more believable to me but the Aiel do
1) They move much faster than any Wetland commander thinks
infantry can move.

This works once or twice, not forever, because idiots in command of
armies don't have a long life expectancy.

That should be the case, anyway, and as such, Jordan's reality of
military command doesn't make much sense.

2) There seems to be a belief in at least some segments of
Wetland nobility that infantry cannot possibly be a threat to
cavalry.

This is also blindingly stupid, as they do have spearmen, I think.
Infantry with pikes is one of the historically useful ways (perhaps the
only one, permitting variations?) of dealing with large units of horses
on a battlefield.

If Randland commanders don't know this, some soldier would eventually be
sure to become rather angry, and ensure a change of command.

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Frank van Schie
This works once or twice, not forever, because idiots in command of
armies don't have a long life expectancy.
That should be the case, anyway, and as such, Jordan's reality of
military command doesn't make much sense.

Idiots in command of armies, in Randland, only die if their entire army is
massacred *and* they don't manage to run away. By comparison, a modern day
General sitting in the CINCEUR seat somewhere in Britain fighting the war
in Germany is leading from the front. Ranged weapons in Randland have
fairly short and very well understood ranges -- and the commander is
outside them.

Post by Frank van Schie
This is also blindingly stupid, as they do have spearmen, I think.
Infantry with pikes is one of the historically useful ways (perhaps the
only one, permitting variations?) of dealing with large units of horses
on a battlefield.

ISTR Roman Legions occasionally defeating units of at least Light Cav
without having anything of quite the size of a pike, but I may be
misremembering.

Jasper

[Dave Rothgery]

Post by Frank van Schie

2) There seems to be a belief in at least some segments of
Wetland nobility that infantry cannot possibly be a threat to
cavalry.

This is also blindingly stupid, as they do have spearmen, I think.
Infantry with pikes is one of the historically useful ways (perhaps the
only one, permitting variations?) of dealing with large units of horses
on a battlefield.

Longbowmen or heavy crossbowmen can also work against heavy cav (and of
course firearms, as soon as they're reasonably reliable). Light cav is
easier to hurt because neither the horses nor the men are wearing as
much armor, though they can, of course, move much faster.

But the Aiel shortspear isn't long enough to be a good anti-cav weapon,
and Aiel shortbows aren't sufficiently powerful to be much good against
armored soldiers from anything but very short range.

[Jasper Janssen]

because their holds are VERY difficult to attack with a large force (going
by the description of Cold Rocks Hold in TSR) and being in a desert renders
the idea of a fort or town ludicrous. Finally, you add in a value system

Eh? Cold Rocks Hold *is* a fort/town, you idiot. It's not that hard to
spot even if it doesn't use wood or bricks for walls.


Jasper

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Jasper Janssen
Eh? Cold Rocks Hold *is* a fort/town, you idiot. It's not that hard to
spot even if it doesn't use wood or bricks for walls.

Most forts or towns don't use natural geological formations as walls as
they tend to be out in the open. That's why they're built to begin with.

On what fucking planet do you *live*? Go out to any medieval fortress in
Europe, and of the ones that actually survived to today[1], most use
geological formations as an integral part of their defenses. Whenever a
mountaintop is available, that's where you situate your walls. In many
cases, flank and rearguard walls are small to nonexistent, even, with the
rock itself functioning as such. There are exceptions, like fortifications
built in plains (varying from artificial-water-moat-and-high-walls such as
in .nl or the low and flimsy wooden walls of a spaghetti western style
Cavalry fort in N. America), but those are just that -- exceptions, and
that's only the case because the terrain in question didn't offer any
geography worthy of the name to situate the fortifications upon.

The Aiel take advantage of their terrain and don't build open structures
which are the hallmarks of a "civilized" society. And according to TSR,

"Open structures", as in big windows, are the hallmark of a society which
has the cannon -- said invention making walls of anything less than <x>
meters thick, where <x> is a shifting target due to advances, pretty much
irrelevant -- so you might as well have big windows if you can't defend
the walls anyway. Oh yes, and advances in large scale glassproduction are
hardly irrelevant either.

Cold Rocks Hold IS hard to spot- Jordan wrote of Rand's surprise when he
emerged from the narrow passage that started in a large fissure of what
appeared to be a sheer cliff. Part of building a good hold in a natural
formation is that whole camouflage aspect of it.

Works as long as you don't need to impress your subjects. I suspect Jordan
modeled that whole thing at least partially on Petra[2].


Jasper

[1] The others didn't necessarily lose out as a result of sieges or other
such things, but as that type of fortifications became largely irrelevant
with the advances in gunpowder and cannon technology, and later the
economic growth of the Industrial Revolution, they were usually swallowed
up by the expanding population base and either torn down (and often used
as raw material for new walls) or integrated into houses.

[2] If you don't know what I'm talking about, think Indiana Jones and the
Holy Grail -- that temple carved in the rock face actually exists, and is
only the most impressive of many buildings there. There's a scene[3] in
the Sci-Fi miniseries of Dune that also resembles it greatly, if it wasn't
actually shot there.

[3] When Muad'Dib has taken the Water Of Life and lies unconscious for
weeks.

[ireadeverything776]

Post by Zdenek Dvorak
Hello,

Post by Cats 898
Simple. It is a common flaw of humanity to think that only your way of doing
something is the right and proper way. The Aiel are humans, thus they fall into
this flaw. They believe honor is their complicated system, and everyone else is
not following honor, even if they are following their own personal version of
honor.

The problem, though, is that the Aiel fundamentally don't make sense.
One can, if one holds one's nose and closes one's eyes, imagine that
their society works the way it's been outlined in the reaches of the
Aiel Waste.
It simply makes no sense, though, unless you assume that pretty much
ever military leader of every nation in the Aiel War was a complete
and utter bonehead-- *and* that none of them were assassinated by
their more competent troops who wanted to survive-- to think that the
Aiel should be such complete ass-kickers in a completely different
environment.
It makes no specific sense-- the Aiel are out-armed, out-armored,
out-platformed, out-logisted. They are light infantry against heavy
cavalry, which is a mismatched pair strategically, but loses
(horribly!) in a stand-up fight. Their only chance for victory in
detail is to perfectly decide the battle, and that's pretty difficult
when you've got no fucking clue about the environemnt.

it is however reasonable to assume that they may overpower any other
infantry (a wariors trained for all their life for fight versus
band of poorly trained recruits ment only as a support for cavalry).
By carying only light equipment, they also gain a superior mobility,
which is a serious strategical advantage. What is a real win for them
is their masking skill, which is what I consider really weird (you may
develop excelent masking skills for desert, but why the hell should they
be at all useful to you in forest?); but assuming that they by some
miracle gained it, it reduces the disadvantage of an unknown environment
significantly (reliable spies), and gives them advantage of surprise.
While heavy cavalry is great against infantry, most of its
advantages are negated when the fight occurs anywhere but in open
terrain and if the enemy occurs close to them. And finally they have
a great advantage of superior morale.
This is not to say that an idea of superior barbarian fighters is not
stupid; if it was not, we would have ones in reality. But this idea
seems to be appealing to almost every fantasy writer, from some reason.
Zdenek

Quote the roman empire which was brought down by, in their own words,
unorganized poorly armed savages.

[Duncan J Macdonald]

On 17 Sep 2003 12:21:17 -0700, ireadeverything776 said...
<snip>

Post by ireadeverything776

Post by Zdenek Dvorak
This is not to say that an idea of superior barbarian fighters is not
stupid; if it was not, we would have ones in reality. But this idea
seems to be appealing to almost every fantasy writer, from some reason.

Quote the roman empire which was brought down by, in their own words,
unorganized poorly armed savages.

Do you believe them?

How about Mr. Gibbon's _Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire_?

[Dom Wynn]

no general sense-- cultures in an environment optimize for

their environments. There's simply no reason to think that tactics
and strategies and command structures developped in threee thousand
years of tribal and clan desert warfare would do any good in any other
environment. And yet, by authorial fiat, they kick everyone's ass.
One can imagine the Cairhienin, though, having had their asses handed
to them *twice* by a bunch of savages in living memory, would have a
certain crisis of confidence and identity, though, and start emulating
the Aiel. The Aiel, being as annoying as every other culture in
Randland, predictably take this the wrong way.

Well the Aiel are probably unlike anything we have seen in the Real
World: they are light infantry par excellence.

What makes them so effective is particularly the Waste Learned stuff:
1) endurance
2) which generally manifests itself in an ability for ground troops to
move spectacularly fast
3) along with unconventional tactics (for example the storming of the
Stone)
4) with vast numbers concentrating in battle on enemy weakpoints.
5) and an unconcern about holding strategical locations (probably due to
the form of Aiel civilisation in the waste): if somewhere is too
impregnable, with the notable exception of Cairiehn and the Stone, they
don't seem to bothered with seiges and foolish attacks.

This combination is enough to have overwhelmed most opponents, and to be
honest Jordan's logic probably isn't too leftfield.
If you think about it about the only thing that would stop them, given
that their tactics seem to be to avoid open full conflict at a location
of the enemies choosing, would be light cavalry, in order to bring them
to battle ala Matt's band.
Otherwise I can't really see any force with pre industrial technology
being enough to pin them down. A reliance in both Randworld and in
Medieval Europe, on both heavy mounted troops (because of the tendancy
toward set piece battles and the the importance of towns as strategic
locations) meant that when the Mongols turned up with light Archer
Cavalry they fair well kicked the asses of most opponents. The Aiel
appear to be infantry versions...

D

[John S. Novak, III]

Well I have to disagree here.
The reason the Aiel kick ass IMHO is that they are stronger, faster,
bigger, trained from the time they are children and have unbelieveble
stamina.

<Snort>

This would be the magical desert, then, whose food supplies are so
abundant that their warriors live on 5,000 calories a day so they can
*be* stronger, faster, and bigger, and train every day (in numbers of
hundreds of thousands!) instead of fucking scrabbling in the dust for
roots and bugs like the goddam savitches they are, just to avoid
starvation on a daily basis.

Add to this that they fight with spear and bow, meaning that
they can break a charge by heavy horse before it ever reaches their
front ranks and as everyone knows heavy horse is most effective when
charging at full tilt. Once the Aiel have stopped the charge it is
easy to then move in for the kill with their speed and skill.

Er, go ahead and try it. Against anyone reasonably competent and
equipped enough to be called "heavy" you will be spanked. Badly.

"Heavy" in this context means slow, but heavily armed and armored.
Pissy little short bows and spears are not impressives to the kind of
armor that horses and mounted men can bear-- which is exactly the type
described by the heavy horse forces of Cairhien and Shienar.

If you want to break a charge, you want heavy infantry, with pike.

The other reason I think is that the other randlanders don't know what
to do againest them, they're not used to fighting them.

This should certainly have applied to the Aiel during the Aiel War, as
well.

They should
have learned from their first beating really but didn't. The only
thing that seemed to be effective againest the Aiel, The Shaido, was
"The Band" under Mat because they were well organised with pikes
basically using like againest like.

Mat is not employing like against like. The Aiel have no pike forces.
They have javelins.

Mat has a classic, professionally organized combined arms force which,
because of the higher technology base, would have put the Macedonians
under Alexander or the Romans under Caesar to shame. That is not like
against like. Like against like is often either a stalemate or a
numerical slugfest meatgrinder. Which is what you want to avoid.

[Michael Wyatt]

Post by John S. Novak, III

Well I have to disagree here.
The reason the Aiel kick ass IMHO is that they are stronger, faster,
bigger, trained from the time they are children and have unbelieveble
stamina.

<Snort>
This would be the magical desert, then, whose food supplies are so
abundant that their warriors live on 5,000 calories a day so they can
*be* stronger, faster, and bigger, and train every day (in numbers of
hundreds of thousands!) instead of fucking scrabbling in the dust for
roots and bugs like the goddam savitches they are, just to avoid
starvation on a daily basis.

Well yeah, and desert survival lore not being particularly helpful at
identifying which mushrooms are nice and tasty and which ones will
make you swell up and die for example.

I was always more concerned by the arrows and spears though. Ignoring
the whole 'where did they come from in the first place?' question, I
am left puzzled as to how the spare arrows and spears actually got to
the aiel war. The aiel having huge trains of supply wagons boggles my
suspension of disbelief about the wood, but I can't see how else they
were carrying them ( insert weird vision of hundreds of thousands of
aiel gai'shain carrying enormous bundles of arrows while stealthily
sneaking through woods )

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Michael Wyatt
I was always more concerned by the arrows and spears though. Ignoring
the whole 'where did they come from in the first place?' question, I
am left puzzled as to how the spare arrows and spears actually got to
the aiel war. The aiel having huge trains of supply wagons boggles my
suspension of disbelief about the wood, but I can't see how else they
were carrying them ( insert weird vision of hundreds of thousands of
aiel gai'shain carrying enormous bundles of arrows while stealthily
sneaking through woods )

Arrows and spears are a lot easier to manufacture on the spot than shells
are, so the logistics problem does not involve carrying them in from the
Waste, it involves carrying your fletchers with you from the Waste. Which
I think they did.

http://idealseek.no-ip.com/IdealSeek.cgi?q=fletchers mentions quite a lot
of fletchers over the books, though the snippets are too short to actually
see which camp (enemy or friendly) said fletchers are in.

Jasper

[David Chapman]

Post by John S. Novak, III
This would be the magical desert, then, whose food supplies are so
abundant that their warriors live on 5,000 calories a day so they can
*be* stronger, faster, and bigger, and train every day (in numbers of
hundreds of thousands!) instead of fucking scrabbling in the dust for
roots and bugs like the goddam savitches they are, just to avoid
starvation on a daily basis.

That said, the Aiel do get a certain amount of gifts from travellers trading
with Shara. The eastern clans may also have an agreement with the Sharans
as well.

[G J]

Post by Cats 898
Simple. It is a common flaw of humanity to think that only your way of doing
something is the right and proper way. The Aiel are humans, thus they fall into
this flaw. They believe honor is their complicated system, and everyone else is
not following honor, even if they are following their own personal version of
honor.

The problem, though, is that the Aiel fundamentally don't make sense.
One can, if one holds one's nose and closes one's eyes, imagine that
their society works the way it's been outlined in the reaches of the
Aiel Waste.
It simply makes no sense, though, unless you assume that pretty much
ever military leader of every nation in the Aiel War was a complete
and utter bonehead-- *and* that none of them were assassinated by
their more competent troops who wanted to survive-- to think that the
Aiel should be such complete ass-kickers in a completely different
environment.
It makes no specific sense-- the Aiel are out-armed, out-armored,
out-platformed, out-logisted. They are light infantry against heavy
cavalry, which is a mismatched pair strategically, but loses
(horribly!) in a stand-up fight. Their only chance for victory in
detail is to perfectly decide the battle, and that's pretty difficult
when you've got no fucking clue about the environemnt.

Light infantry can be very effective against heavy cav. The English
proved that at Crecy. The Aiel even use the same tricks -- go for the
horses -- and bows as well (although not longbows). The only
significant difference is that Aiel depend more on concealment,
mobility and surprise, and less on entrenched fortifications.

It makes no general sense-- cultures in an environment optimize for
their environments. There's simply no reason to think that tactics
and strategies and command structures developped in threee thousand
years of tribal and clan desert warfare would do any good in any other
environment. And yet, by authorial fiat, they kick everyone's ass.

1) They're used to fighting
2) They organize well into small, functional units.
They have to adapt to new ambient conditions vis-a-vis camouflage,
etc, but that's about it.

One can imagine the Cairhienin, though, having had their asses handed
to them *twice* by a bunch of savages in living memory, would have a
certain crisis of confidence and identity, though, and start emulating
the Aiel. The Aiel, being as annoying as every other culture in
Randland, predictably take this the wrong way.

The aristocratic penchant for the horse west of Kinslayer's Dagger is
typical of aristocratic Europe in the middle of the last millenium.
It's historically consistent that when cavalry face infantry
unsupported, they get their asses kicked. Notice, however, that when
the Aiel fight disciplined heavy infantry, mixed armies of infantry
and cavalry, or cavalry using more cooperative tactics, it's more of a
middling proposition.

[John S. Novak, III]

Post by G J
Light infantry can be very effective against heavy cav. The English
proved that at Crecy. The Aiel even use the same tricks -- go for the
horses -- and bows as well (although not longbows). The only
significant difference is that Aiel depend more on concealment,
mobility and surprise, and less on entrenched fortifications.

The Aiel aren't that kind of infantry.
The model you're looking at there is Two Rivers yeomanry with heavy
*long bows*. The more clever Shienarans do, actually, see the
potential in those massive fucking instruments of death from a
distance, because they comment on it.

Aiel archers got nothin' on the Two Rivers.

Post by G J

It makes no general sense-- cultures in an environment optimize for
their environments. There's simply no reason to think that tactics
and strategies and command structures developped in threee thousand
years of tribal and clan desert warfare would do any good in any other
environment. And yet, by authorial fiat, they kick everyone's ass.

1) They're used to fighting

As opposed to the Bordermen.

Post by G J
2) They organize well into small, functional units.

Those undisciplined Shienaran rubes!

Post by G J
They have to adapt to new ambient conditions vis-a-vis camouflage,
etc, but that's about it.

<Snort>
It's several books before they're even described as doing that.

Post by G J

One can imagine the Cairhienin, though, having had their asses handed
to them *twice* by a bunch of savages in living memory, would have a
certain crisis of confidence and identity, though, and start emulating
the Aiel. The Aiel, being as annoying as every other culture in
Randland, predictably take this the wrong way.

The aristocratic penchant for the horse west of Kinslayer's Dagger is
typical of aristocratic Europe in the middle of the last millenium.
It's historically consistent that when cavalry face infantry
unsupported, they get their asses kicked. Notice, however, that when
the Aiel fight disciplined heavy infantry, mixed armies of infantry
and cavalry, or cavalry using more cooperative tactics, it's more of a
middling proposition.

I've been holding up the Shienarans as the fighting example, and while
they don't have Mat Cauthon, there's no reason to assume they're
completely unsupported heavy cavalry. If they were, they'd get
spanked by the Trolloc infantry.

[David Chapman]

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by G J
They have to adapt to new ambient conditions vis-a-vis camouflage,
etc, but that's about it.

<Snort>
It's several books before they're even described as doing that.

Now *that's* a bit odd. You'd think their fathers would have taught them
what they learned about wetlands fighting during the Aiel War, assuming they
weren't there themselves.

Post by John S. Novak, III
I've been holding up the Shienarans as the fighting example, and while
they don't have Mat Cauthon, there's no reason to assume they're
completely unsupported heavy cavalry. If they were, they'd get
spanked by the Trolloc infantry.

The one major battle we've seen the Shienarans in, no mention was made of
anything but cavalry. I can't see them not having infantry, but it's a
surprising omission.

[G J]

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by G J
Light infantry can be very effective against heavy cav. The English
proved that at Crecy. The Aiel even use the same tricks -- go for the
horses -- and bows as well (although not longbows). The only
significant difference is that Aiel depend more on concealment,
mobility and surprise, and less on entrenched fortifications.

The Aiel aren't that kind of infantry.
The model you're looking at there is Two Rivers yeomanry with heavy
*long bows*. The more clever Shienarans do, actually, see the
potential in those massive fucking instruments of death from a
distance, because they comment on it.
Aiel archers got nothin' on the Two Rivers.

Never said they were; never said they did. I just said they can (and
do) use some of the same tricks.

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by G J

It makes no general sense-- cultures in an environment optimize for
their environments. There's simply no reason to think that tactics
and strategies and command structures developped in threee thousand
years of tribal and clan desert warfare would do any good in any other
environment. And yet, by authorial fiat, they kick everyone's ass.

1) They're used to fighting

As opposed to the Bordermen.

Post by G J
2) They organize well into small, functional units.

Those undisciplined Shienaran rubes!

Post by G J
They have to adapt to new ambient conditions vis-a-vis camouflage,
etc, but that's about it.

<Snort>
It's several books before they're even described as doing that.

Camouflage is not entirely about equipment. It's also partly about
attitude. You don't need fancy clothes to slither through a gully or
hide behind a bush.

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by G J

One can imagine the Cairhienin, though, having had their asses handed
to them *twice* by a bunch of savages in living memory, would have a
certain crisis of confidence and identity, though, and start emulating
the Aiel. The Aiel, being as annoying as every other culture in
Randland, predictably take this the wrong way.

The aristocratic penchant for the horse west of Kinslayer's Dagger is
typical of aristocratic Europe in the middle of the last millenium.
It's historically consistent that when cavalry face infantry
unsupported, they get their asses kicked. Notice, however, that when
the Aiel fight disciplined heavy infantry, mixed armies of infantry
and cavalry, or cavalry using more cooperative tactics, it's more of a
middling proposition.

I've been holding up the Shienarans as the fighting example, and while
they don't have Mat Cauthon, there's no reason to assume they're
completely unsupported heavy cavalry. If they were, they'd get
spanked by the Trolloc infantry.

Heh heh. They do have Agelmar Jagad, who's apparently nothing to
sneeze at.

Alright. If you go back to tSR (I think) Rhuarc comments that
borderlanders do ok against Aiel. I would expect the Seanchan would as
well. Note that the two maulings dished out by the Aiel (which we've
seen) were against the Tairens and the Cairhienin. Both have rigid
class structures (and seem to believe in the talent of aristocracy as
opposed to the aristocracy of talent), and Cairhien was just getting
over a civil war.

The Aiel have one advantage which is somewhat overlooked by this
listing: there are a f***-load of them. In a similar fashion to the
Mongols, the Aiel seem to be able to field most of their male
population - and some of their women too. This would probably explain
most of their success post-Laman's sin (aka the Aiel War).

[TradeSurplus]

John S. Novak, III wrote ...

The problem, though, is that the Aiel fundamentally don't make sense.
One can, if one holds one's nose and closes one's eyes, imagine that
their society works the way it's been outlined in the reaches of the
Aiel Waste.

Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster and all that. Can hardly believe
I'll make my first post by disagreeing (even if only in part) with John
Novak but here goes..

It makes no specific sense-- the Aiel are out-armed, out-armored,
out-platformed, out-logisted. They are light infantry against heavy
cavalry, which is a mismatched pair strategically, but loses
(horribly!) in a stand-up fight. Their only chance for victory in
detail is to perfectly decide the battle, and that's pretty difficult
when you've got no fucking clue about the environemnt.
It makes no general sense-- cultures in an environment optimize for
their environments. There's simply no reason to think that tactics
and strategies and command structures developped in threee thousand
years of tribal and clan desert warfare would do any good in any other
environment. And yet, by authorial fiat, they kick everyone's ass.

I disagree with your general statement but agree with your specific
statement. The Mongols nicely illustrate both points.

The arms, tactics and strategies created by the Mongols in their desert
environment were extremely effective against Chinese, Muslim and European
armies. Not just for a few decades either. The Mongols were basically
unbeatable for almost two centuries. This shows that the general idea of a
barbarian, desert force subsisting mostly by hunting and herding conquering
powerful civilizations is not impossible.

OTOH, the strengths of the Mongols show _how_ they could defeat European
armies and the Aiel do not have the same strengths, making the specific case
of the Aiel unbelievable.

In arms, Mongol bows were considerably superior to European bows, with a
much longer range. I could be wrong but I don't recall any mention of Aiel
bows being superior to Randland bows. In fact ISTR Two Rivers bowmen having
a longer range than Aiel. Furthermore, since they could shoot from
horseback, Mongol archers could shoot to the rear of their direction of
travel, inflicting casualties on their pursuers even as they retreated.

In command and control Mongols were vastly superior to European armies, both
tactically and strategically. Mongol tumens were hierarchically organised
and constantly drilled. They had decades of training and experience in
fighting large scale wars, involving many thousands of warriors on each
side. They communicated with flags on the battlefield giving the general
much more control over the movements of his troops than European generals.
Strategically, the Mongols were able to communicate between wings of their
armies dispersed across hundreds of miles and informed by reliable, fast
scouts. The Mongols nearly always had strategic surprise.
The Aiel, as pointed out by others downthread, had no experience of fighting
large scale wars prior to Laman's Sin and thus no need to develop large
scale command and control structures and no way to practice them even if
they were devised.

Finally, contrary to the popular image, Mongol armies did not consist only,
or indeed primarily, of light cavalry. Mongol heavy cavalry was easily a
match for and in many ways superior to European heavy cavalry. Mongol
archers were used to soften up opponents and/or draw them out of position
before the heavy cavalry charged. After the invasion of China, Mongols also
acquired siege equipment. Prior to that they had been unable to take any
strong fortifications.
The Aiel seem to consist almost entirely of light infantry. After
skirmishing and weakening an enemy army, they have no troop types capable of
going head to head with the enemy as the Mongol heavy cavalry did. The Aiel
also don't use siege equipment. They shouldn't be able to take fortified
cities or castles any more than the Mongols could prior to the conquest of
China.

The great Mongol advantage of speed, both tactically and strategically, can
only be matched by the Aiel due to their magical ability to keep up with
horses. Since this ability is not explicitly said to be magical in nature,
nor the magic enabling it explained, it is not very believable.

Trade.

[John S. Novak, III]

Post by TradeSurplus
Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster and all that. Can hardly believe
I'll make my first post by disagreeing (even if only in part) with John
Novak but here goes..
The arms, tactics and strategies created by the Mongols in their desert
environment were extremely effective against Chinese, Muslim and European
armies. Not just for a few decades either.

Enough with the damned Mongols.
The Mongols had *horses*. Light cavalry (even backed or fronted by
heavy cavalry) can outmanuever heavy cavalry. Infantry just doesn't
do that.

It's also worth noting that the Mongols were initially surrounded by
creaky and decrepit states, not states used to fighting for their
lives on a weekly basis, like the Shienarans and the other Bordermen
who participated in the Aiel War. Also, didn't the Mongols take
something like fifteen years to digest northern China and take the
sensible route of taxing their new subjects and therefore living off
the fruits of their civilized subjects? Lucky shots happen, but the
Aiel didn't even do that-- they just carted off shiny things of little
use.

Very damned little about the Aiel is believable.

They win by author fiat.

[Ragnarok73]

Post by John S. Novak, III
Enough with the damned Mongols.
The Mongols had *horses*. Light cavalry (even backed or fronted by
heavy cavalry) can outmanuever heavy cavalry. Infantry just doesn't
do that.

It's not just the horses, though- when I talked about their tactics, I was
focusing more on the use of arrows and other projectile weapons to weaken
the enemy and break up its ranks before closing in and engaging in close
combat. Infantry doesn't have to outmaneuver a cavalryman after he's shot
the man's horse out from under him. And when we're talking about fights
that AREN'T on anything but wide open space, the advantage shifts sharply
away from the cavalry.

Post by John S. Novak, III
It's also worth noting that the Mongols were initially surrounded by
creaky and decrepit states, not states used to fighting for their
lives on a weekly basis, like the Shienarans and the other Bordermen
who participated in the Aiel War.

Too bad the Shienarans didn't constitute the bulk of the coalition forces
because then the Aiel would have had a more difficult time. Instead, the
force was made up MAINLY of conscripts and retainers of nobility who were
anything but united and had no prior experience in fighting a force as
disciplined and ruthless as the Aiel.

Post by John S. Novak, III
Also, didn't the Mongols take something like fifteen years to digest

northern China and take the

Post by John S. Novak, III
sensible route of taxing their new subjects and therefore living off
the fruits of their civilized subjects? Lucky shots happen, but the
Aiel didn't even do that-- they just carted off shiny things of little
use.

Yes, the Mongols only learned later that cities shouldn't be completely
pillaged if they were to administer the areas that they conquered, but the
point is that they DID conquer them.

Post by John S. Novak, III
Very damned little about the Aiel is believable.
They win by author fiat.

An Aes Sedai did it.

Ragnarok73
--
"Life is warfare and the sojourn of a stranger in a strange land." - Marcus
Aurelius

[Frank van Schie]

Post by Ragnarok73

Post by John S. Novak, III
Enough with the damned Mongols.
The Mongols had *horses*. Light cavalry (even backed or fronted by
heavy cavalry) can outmanuever heavy cavalry. Infantry just doesn't
do that.

It's not just the horses, though- when I talked about their tactics, I was
focusing more on the use of arrows and other projectile weapons to weaken
the enemy and break up its ranks before closing in and engaging in close
combat.

Heavy cavalry will close in as Aiel are getting off shots. The Mongols
got away with this by having their archers on top of fast horses.

Aiel bows don't have such incredible range or power (like Two Rivers
longbows do) that they can stay out of enemy bow-range, meaning they'd
have to be targets in order to get them.

Post by Ragnarok73
Infantry doesn't have to outmaneuver a cavalryman after he's shot
the man's horse out from under him.

Heavy cavalry rides armored horses, specifically head, neck, back and
flanks. The bits that arrows are good at hitting.

Post by Ragnarok73
And when we're talking about fights
that AREN'T on anything but wide open space, the advantage shifts sharply
away from the cavalry.

This is true. But park that's why you park your cavalry on open fields
away from forests, at the top of hills.

The short bows used by the Aiel have a limited range, and they'll not
even get close to the 200 yard-line that Two Rivers bows laugh at.
Horses thundering in a charge cover 200 yards quickly. Which leaves
scattered light infantry vs. charging cavalry.

The Aiel, as portrayed in the book, are great raiders and skirmishers,
but only if they keep falling back. Versus a force of combined arms,
they don't have a chance.

[Ragnarok73]

Post by Frank van Schie
Heavy cavalry will close in as Aiel are getting off shots. The Mongols
got away with this by having their archers on top of fast horses.

You can slow down a cavalry charge if you're smart enough to aim at the
horses rather than the men as the Mongols did when they used this technique
on mounted knights during their campaign into eastern Europe.

Post by Frank van Schie
Aiel bows don't have such incredible range or power (like Two Rivers
longbows do) that they can stay out of enemy bow-range, meaning they'd
have to be targets in order to get them.

Try using a longbow on the run- the whole point of the Aiel using short
bows is that they're able to get their shots off while on the move.

Post by Frank van Schie
Heavy cavalry rides armored horses, specifically head, neck, back and
flanks. The bits that arrows are good at hitting.

Yes, but how much armor are you going to pile on the poor beast before you
severely hamper its endurance level in a fight? Besides, it's not
impossible that the Aiel could have developed sharper arrowheads for
piercing armor.

Post by Frank van Schie
This is true. But park that's why you park your cavalry on open fields
away from forests, at the top of hills.

This is a matter of whose commander is the smarted one, then. If the Aiel
were dumb enough to attempt a frontal assault on mounted cavalry from a
lower position in an open space, then they'd be rightly slaughtered. But
from what I read in the books thus far, they're not in fact that dumb.

Post by Frank van Schie
The short bows used by the Aiel have a limited range, and they'll not
even get close to the 200 yard-line that Two Rivers bows laugh at.
Horses thundering in a charge cover 200 yards quickly. Which leaves
scattered light infantry vs. charging cavalry.

The Aiel seem to like the tactic of feigning retreats, which strings out
the cavalry, while 2 flanking forces come in from both sides to pelt the
attackers with arrows and javelins. Against a charge, this tactic could
work if the cavalry commander doesn't realize the feint for what it is.

Post by Frank van Schie
The Aiel, as portrayed in the book, are great raiders and skirmishers,
but only if they keep falling back. Versus a force of combined arms,
they don't have a chance.

The Aiel's tactics are generally geared towards quick raids more than on
full assaults. But against a force of combined arms, they do have a chance
because they're written to be better fighters and tougher. They also have a
great artillery support in the form of Wise Ones not constrained by any
Three Oaths from using the Power to smash up whatever's in their way. That
is the X factor in this whole argument.

Ragnarok73

[Richard Boye']

Post by Ragnarok73
Yes, but how much armor are you going to pile on the poor beast before you
severely hamper its endurance level in a fight? Besides, it's not

Quite a lot. Think the same kind of metal plates that are on the human,
over much of the beast's critical areas.

Jasper, upon a review of this thread in its entirety (and allowing
myself to respond in a pointless effort), I think we can safely conclude
that we are dealing with:

a) a troll
b) a syncophantic Jordan apologist
or
c) someone simply has no idea of what he is talking about, and lacks
even the most basic understanding of military history, military science
and biology.

Choose whatever option suits you best and move one.

[Ragnarok73]

Post by Richard Boye'
Jasper, upon a review of this thread in its entirety (and allowing
myself to respond in a pointless effort), I think we can safely conclude
a) a troll
b) a syncophantic Jordan apologist
or
c) someone simply has no idea of what he is talking about, and lacks
even the most basic understanding of military history, military science
and biology.
Choose whatever option suits you best and move one.

Considering that we're arguing about one detail in a fantasy world where
this supernatural force called the One Power is a central factor of the
story, I can conclude that Richard is being an:

a) Anal asshole
b) Hostile moron
c) Obsequious toady
or
d) All of the above

I'd go with option d) but instead I decided to go with the option:

e) Someone who is now in my killfile

You've expended some real effort to be a jerk over a detail that makes
sense when you remember that it's a piece of FANTASY fiction that we've all
been discussing. Have a good life, twerp.

Ragnarok73

[Ragnarok73]

I'm not sure why you're bothering to make out you're the victim. You've
already lost.

Uh yeah- we're discussing a detail in a series of books where the central
factor of the plot is an all-binding supernatural force. It's pretty sad
how long this thread is and that I've contributed to it. The fact that
Richard was getting worked up enough to expend effort into insulting me
implies that he's got some serious psychological issues. Point of this:
chill out since it's a piece of FANTASY FICTION that we're discussing here,
k? Yeesh.

Ragnarok73

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Richard Boye'
Jasper, upon a review of this thread in its entirety (and allowing
myself to respond in a pointless effort), I think we can safely conclude
c) someone simply has no idea of what he is talking about, and lacks
even the most basic understanding of military history, military science
and biology.
Choose whatever option suits you best and move one.

Dammit, why does everyone always get tired of playing with the trolls
before I even start?

Jasper

[Therese]

Post by Ragnarok73
The Aiel's tactics are generally geared towards quick raids more than on
full assaults. But against a force of combined arms, they do have a chance
because they're written to be better fighters and tougher. They also have a
great artillery support in the form of Wise Ones not constrained by any
Three Oaths from using the Power to smash up whatever's in their way. That
is the X factor in this whole argument.

Since real life facts don't seem to work on you, how 'bout some Jordan?

Wise Ones did not take part in battle until Dumai's Wells.

[Zdenek Dvorak]

Hello,

Post by Ragnarok73
Yes, but how much armor are you going to pile on the poor beast before you
severely hamper its endurance level in a fight? Besides, it's not

Quite a lot. Think the same kind of metal plates that are on the human,
over much of the beast's critical areas.

a bad analogy -- this way you only confirm what he says; an armored
knight is dead in a moment he falls from his horse.

Zdenek

[Michael Ikeda]

Post by Frank van Schie
The Aiel, as portrayed in the book, are great raiders and
skirmishers, but only if they keep falling back. Versus a force
of combined arms, they don't have a chance.

One should probably add the qualifier "intelligently used" to the
second sentence. Which may explain a lot about recent Randland
military history...

[Jasper Janssen]

Post by Frank van Schie
The short bows used by the Aiel have a limited range, and they'll not
even get close to the 200 yard-line that Two Rivers bows laugh at.
Horses thundering in a charge cover 200 yards quickly. Which leaves
scattered light infantry vs. charging cavalry.

I'd be surprised if Aiel shortbows in the real world would be accurate
over 50-100, let alone further than that. Of course, Aiel are genetically
manipulated to be better warriors with more endurance, more speed, more
efficient metabolism, more strength, and generally closer to Sauron
Supermen than to homo sapiens. That's the only ezxplanation I can think of
for most of their parlor tricks.

Post by Frank van Schie
The Aiel, as portrayed in the book, are great raiders and skirmishers,
but only if they keep falling back. Versus a force of combined arms,
they don't have a chance.

Which actually makes a lot of sense for a society that doesn't own much --
if there's one thing you can have in the Waste it's defensive depth.

Jasper

[TradeSurplus]

John S. Novak, III wrote ...

Post by John S. Novak, III

Post by TradeSurplus
Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster and all that. Can hardly believe
I'll make my first post by disagreeing (even if only in part) with John
Novak but here goes..
The arms, tactics and strategies created by the Mongols in their desert
environment were extremely effective against Chinese, Muslim and European
armies. Not just for a few decades either.

Enough with the damned Mongols.
The Mongols had *horses*. Light cavalry (even backed or fronted by
heavy cavalry) can outmanuever heavy cavalry. Infantry just doesn't
do that.

Which is part of my point, the other part being that, in general, socially
primitive barbarian societies _can_ defeat organised states.

You made two points initially. You said that in a general sense "There's
simply no reason to think that tactics and strategies and command structures
developed in three thousand years of tribal and clan desert warfare would do
any good in any other environment."
This is in general wrong. Not only is it possible, it has happened several
times in real world history.

Your second point was that the Aiel specifically were unbelievable because
they "are out-armed, out-armored, out-platformed, out-logisted".
This is correct, particularly, as you say in your reply to my post, because
the Aiel lack horses. The lack of horses is one specific feature of Aiel
society that makes their success unbelievable, although there are others. In
real world history, those times when barbarians from the wilderness defeated
civilised societies, the barbarians always had some specific advantages. The
Aiel lack any such advantage and so they should be defeated with relative
ease.

Jordan is correct in general concept. A barbarian society from the desert
can develop arms, command structures and troops that will easily defeat
their complacent, civilised neighbours. Jordan is wrong in specific
execution. The Aiel do not have the arms, command structures or troops to be
able to do what Jordan says they did. As you so nicely put it, "They win by
author fiat", not by historical parallel.

Trade

[Trade Surplus]

John S. Novak, III wrote...

Post by John S. Novak, III
Enough with the damned Mongols.
The Mongols had *horses*. Light cavalry (even backed or fronted by
heavy cavalry) can outmanuever heavy cavalry. Infantry just doesn't
do that.

Which is part of my point, the other part being that, in general, socially
primitive barbarian societies _can_ defeat organised states.

In general? I don't think so.
Occasionally, yes. You're pointing to exceptions.

Misunderstanding of words. In general it is possible for primitive barbarian
societies to defeat organised states. It doesn't happen very often because
in general organised states can field better armies but it is possible. Your
claim that the Aiel are unbelievable because in general no barbarian society
can be militarily superior to a civilised one in the civilised state's own
environment is wrong, because it is possible, even if rare.

You made two points initially. You said that in a general sense "There's
simply no reason to think that tactics and strategies and command structures
developed in three thousand years of tribal and clan desert warfare would do
any good in any other environment."
This is in general wrong. Not only is it possible, it has happened several
times in real world history.

Then why are you talking about Mongols, which are not desert raiders?
Even the Mongols had the advantage of beating up on decrepit
civilizations at first.

The Mongols are desert raiders. They come from a cold desert environment,
not a hot desert but it is desert nonetheless.
Saying that the Mongols could practice on decrepit states first is pointing
to a specific advantage of the Mongols. That specific advantage is one the
Aiel do not have, therefore the Aiel are specifically unbelievable, even
though the general concept of militarily superior barbarians is believable.

For other examples consider the Arab conquest of Persia and much of
Byzantium. The Arabian desert is an even more hostile environment than the
Aiel waste.
Consider also the Viking invasions of Europe. Though not desert warriors,
the Vikings were socially more primitive than their European victims but
could raid anywhere they wanted and defeat civilised armies.
Another example is the fall of the Western Empire to Goths, Vandals etc.
In more ancient times the civilisations of the fertile crescent were
repeatedly conquered by barbarians, who settled, became civilised and were
conquered in their turn by the next wave of barbarians.

The concept of barbarians being militarily superior to civilised societies
is not at all outlandish since it has happened many times in the real world.
Just because something is relatively rare (in most cases the civilised
society will defeat the barbarians) does not mean that Jordan is wrong to
use it in WOT.
Where Jordan goes wrong is in the specific attributes of the Aiel which are
too far away from real world examples of successful barbarians to be
believable.

Trade.

[Benjamin Kaplin]

I think that a constant theme throughout the novels is the clash between different cultures. No group of people is going to roll over and say
"Your way of living is better than ours"
It's just counter-intuitive. The struggle between groups is always there you just have to look for it. The Aiel are just one of the more vocal about their superiority. The others don't bitch-slap them down for a few reasons:
a)Rand likes 'em.
b)They kick ass and take names
c)They _will_ kill you.
d)Nobody really understands them in depth, other than the select few we all know about.

?OK, this is always something I've wondered about.
why does Jordan seem to have this amazing desire to have everyone
else's customs and way of life challenged and found lacking by the
Aiel? This goes right down to the customs of the people of Andor, to
Cairhien to the Aes Sedai themselves. Only they, in his book, seem to
have any "honor."
Everyone caught up with the Aiel in any way suddenly begin to behave
like theirs is the only way. Egwene is the worst victim, changing
from know-it-all girl to some kind of weird, all-knowing teenager
priss. She's what, 18? Yet she's the only Aes Sedai with honor.
It's highly annoying. There's no one I'd rather bitch slap than half
of the Wise Ones. So the Aes Sedai are haughty and think they're not
wrong. Who cares? The Wise Ones have their own agenda as well
(seeing to it that their people are kept as together as possible
through this ordeal). Minus the Black Ajah, the goal of the Aes Sedai
is to prevent another Breaking as much as possible. No less noble a
goal; moreso, since they desire to keep the world intact, not just one
people.
Of course, they do have ego and control issues...no one in these books
is without that. But the constant humiliation the Aes Sedai suffer
from the Wise Ones, the Kin, the Atha'an Miere (who, in my own humble
opinion, deserve nothing less than total annihilation by the
Seanchan), and the Black Tower/Asha'man.
If Jordan's agenda seems to be to crush the Aes Sedai ego, he's
certainly doing it at the expense of the ego of everyone else. The
only reason I find Cadsuane fascinating at all is that there's a small
chance she might show the Wise Ones they're not quite what they think
they are in the eyes of others.
Thoughts, comments?
Eric

[SR]

Post by Eric
OK, this is always something I've wondered about.
why does Jordan seem to have this amazing desire to have everyone
else's customs and way of life challenged and found lacking by the
Aiel? This goes right down to the customs of the people of Andor, to
Cairhien to the Aes Sedai themselves. Only they, in his book, seem to
have any "honor."
Everyone caught up with the Aiel in any way suddenly begin to behave
like theirs is the only way. Egwene is the worst victim, changing
from know-it-all girl to some kind of weird, all-knowing teenager
priss. She's what, 18? Yet she's the only Aes Sedai with honor.
It's highly annoying. There's no one I'd rather bitch slap than half
of the Wise Ones. So the Aes Sedai are haughty and think they're not
wrong. Who cares? The Wise Ones have their own agenda as well
(seeing to it that their people are kept as together as possible
through this ordeal). Minus the Black Ajah, the goal of the Aes Sedai
is to prevent another Breaking as much as possible. No less noble a
goal; moreso, since they desire to keep the world intact, not just one
people.
Of course, they do have ego and control issues...no one in these books
is without that. But the constant humiliation the Aes Sedai suffer
from the Wise Ones, the Kin, the Atha'an Miere (who, in my own humble
opinion, deserve nothing less than total annihilation by the
Seanchan), and the Black Tower/Asha'man.
If Jordan's agenda seems to be to crush the Aes Sedai ego, he's
certainly doing it at the expense of the ego of everyone else. The
only reason I find Cadsuane fascinating at all is that there's a small
chance she might show the Wise Ones they're not quite what they think
they are in the eyes of others.
Thoughts, comments?
Eric

Lurker and newbie to posting here. I disagree. Your citing Egwene here
and she is hardly the best example for many things. Egwene has a
really big flaw in that she has to be the best at everything. The best
dreamer, the best Aes Sedai, the best Amyrlin, and in this case the
best Aiel.

Neither Rand or Mat are like her. Mat makes no attempt to assimilate
Aiel culture, knows the least about it, and hardly thinks the Aiel
culture is the answer to everything. Rand did and had to adopt some
Aiel ways by being the Car'a'carn, but he never pretends he is an Aiel
and doesn't go further than he has to.

Whereas Egwene adopts Aiel ways, such as the attitude to servants.
Rand constantly points out the contradictions and strangeness of
ji'e'toh. Mat seems to be still struggling with the possibility they
might not be savages.

It's hardly surprising the WO think Egwene has honor. She follows them
exactly. Rand doesn't and hence thier problems with him. Mat they
ignore which is strange as he is Ta'veren so they must've had dreams
of him. Then again he is a wetlander. Racism how honorable.

If you look at Mat, Rand or even Perrin POV's you don't get half as
rosy a view of the Aiel as Egwene's.

[Eric]

Post by SR
Lurker and newbie to posting here. I disagree. Your citing Egwene here
and she is hardly the best example for many things. Egwene has a
really big flaw in that she has to be the best at everything. The best
dreamer, the best Aes Sedai, the best Amyrlin, and in this case the
best Aiel.
Neither Rand or Mat are like her. Mat makes no attempt to assimilate
Aiel culture, knows the least about it, and hardly thinks the Aiel
culture is the answer to everything. Rand did and had to adopt some
Aiel ways by being the Car'a'carn, but he never pretends he is an Aiel
and doesn't go further than he has to.
Whereas Egwene adopts Aiel ways, such as the attitude to servants.
Rand constantly points out the contradictions and strangeness of
ji'e'toh. Mat seems to be still struggling with the possibility they
might not be savages.
It's hardly surprising the WO think Egwene has honor. She follows them
exactly. Rand doesn't and hence thier problems with him. Mat they
ignore which is strange as he is Ta'veren so they must've had dreams
of him. Then again he is a wetlander. Racism how honorable.
If you look at Mat, Rand or even Perrin POV's you don't get half as
rosy a view of the Aiel as Egwene's.

***Another response: I cited Egwene because she's one of those who so
completely tosses out her heritage in favor of the Aiel yet also wants
to be this amazingly consistent Aes Sedai (of course, she's not
because they don't even come close to Aiel Wise One heirarchies).
I agree about Mat. I never liked him in my first read-through of the
series but a 2nd read made him the most level-headed and normal of the
entire bunch...which is sad, because he's really relegated to the
periphery of the story. I'm sure he has a big part to play but I'm
betting a page-by-page count would show the Wonder Girls garner far
more screen time than ta'veren (and, supposedly, essential to winning
the battle at Tarmon Gai'don) Mat.
For that matter, of the Wonder Girls, only Nynaeve seems to be wholly
embracing the "Aes Sedai" way...I'm all for a change of heart (since
she originally set out on her path to teach Aes Sedai a lesson) but
Egwene and Elayne both seem to be embracing Aiel ways so fiercely as
to the exclusion of everyone else's way. They think the Aiel way is
most important: therefore, they begin to hold everyone to an exacting
code of honor they themselves don't even fully understand! What's
worse is that they admit to this constantly yet still try to hold
themselves up to this exacting light...and they hold others in this
light.
My sincere hope is that Cadsuane's lesson to teach Rand and the
asha'man is that power doesn't mean much and that the Aiel are a big
sack of goat shit.
Eric