Is there any camera on earth meeting 4 simple requirements (AA,CF,7x)

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

MY QUESTION:
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media

I ask for your help in that I've only found ONE camera which comes
close to meeting these 4 simple (and, I'd bet, pretty univerally held)
requirements:
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)
- Excellent picture quality (I trust in Consumer Reports measurements)
- 7x - 10x optical zoom (equivalent to about 200 mm or more)
- Compact Flash media (I already have many CF cards & PCMCIA readers)

Searching endlessly, I can only find one camera coming close:
- Canon Powershot S1 IS (3.2 MP)
But I'd like a 5 megapixel or larger (for enlargements if needed).

Also this digital camera doesn't have a macro capability.
(Ad copy says it can focus at 4 inches so that seems like a built-in
macro non-macro to me ... what do you think)?

Is there any AA,CF,7x, camera with good photo quality on earth?

Susan Henderson

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries, quality photos, 7x zoom, CF media

Minolta A2 with optional grip meets your requirements.
Without the grip it can only use supplied Li-Ion battery but
with grip it can use one or two Li-Ions or six AA.

Whoa! :) I'm confused.

Do you mean the 8 MegaPixel $800 Konica Minolta DiMAGE A2?

Consumer Reports, in its future July 2005 online ratings gave it a "NO"
on the use of AA batteries (line 78 of the 79-line 7/2005 digital
camera ratings report). But, wait. That's not all. When I froogle, I
can see there is an optional BP-400 VERTICLE GRIP for the "Minolta A2"
for about $100 additional.

Am I wrong? Is Consumer Reports wrong?
Or are there multiple Minolta A2 cameras (like there are multiple Nikon
CoolPix cameras)?

What further confuses me is that the $550 5MP Nikon CoolPix 5700 (line
38 of the CR 7/2005 on-line ratings chart) is listed on Consumer
Reports as accepting AA batteries - but I have one and I know that not
to be the case without the optional Nikon MB-E5700 Battery Pack for
about $150 additional.

So, is this my new AA battery summary correct (if not, what is wrong)?
- $350, 3MP, 10x zoom, Canon PowerShot S1IS I takes AA batteries native
- $550, 5MP, 8x zoom, Nikon CoolPix 5700 is $150 more for AA batteries
- $800, 8MP, 7x zoom, DiMAGE Minolta A2 is maybe $100 more for AA?

Please help me as I am utterly amazed there are only three cameras
which even come close to these pretty universal simple 4 features.
- AA batteries
- Excellent photo quality
- 7x zoom
- Compact Flash

You will help others at the same time.
Susan Henderson

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Am I wrong? Is Consumer Reports wrong?

Do you believe /everything/ you read in CR?
The poster was suggesting an add-on to the camera which converted it from
Li-ion battery to AAs. A number of cameras offer this.

I agree with you. Consumers Union is sometimes wrong.
That's why I asked this newsgroup.
Because I believe this newsgroup more than I believe Consumer Reports.

In fact, I already pointed out where CR was wrong in the Nikon CoolPix
5700 taking AA batteries (as published in the latest digital camera
ratings dated 7/2005). :)

All I was confirming was whether I understood the camera correctly
(Minolta DiMAGE A2 ???) and whether or not it truly can take AA
batteries because there was an obvious descrepancy (and I am not at all
familiar with that digital camera like I am with the Nikon equivalent).

Is it correct that these three and no other digital camera on earth
can:
- take AA batteries
- snap excellent photos
- at at least 7x zoom
- saving onto compact flash media

Susan Henderson

[Big Bill]

On 10 Jun 2005 02:18:41 -0700, "Susan (Graphic Artist)"

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
I agree with you. Consumers Union is sometimes wrong.
That's why I asked this newsgroup.
Because I believe this newsgroup more than I believe Consumer Reports.

You might want to broaden your reading a little beyond CU.
Dpreview, Steve's, even the manufacturers themselves, are all on the
Web, with free professional (biased, on the part of the manufacturers,
possibly, albeit technically correct) reviews of most cameras being
recently marketed.
There's certainly nothing wrong with using newsgroups for this, but,
IMO, restricting yourself to CU for technical reviews of digital
cameras means you are missing a *LOT*.

[The Real Bev]

Post by Big Bill

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
I agree with you. Consumers Union is sometimes wrong.
That's why I asked this newsgroup.
Because I believe this newsgroup more than I believe Consumer Reports.

You might want to broaden your reading a little beyond CU.
Dpreview, Steve's, even the manufacturers themselves, are all on the
Web, with free professional (biased, on the part of the manufacturers,
possibly, albeit technically correct) reviews of most cameras being
recently marketed.
There's certainly nothing wrong with using newsgroups for this, but,
IMO, restricting yourself to CU for technical reviews of digital
cameras means you are missing a *LOT*.

CU is OK for mainstream consumer goods (what do you REALLY expect from a
toaster?), but anything involving enthusiast-level or above is beyond their
reach. I get really tired of hearing about possible shock hazards, too. "If
you straighten out a coat hanger and stick it into this hole right here you
will probably receive a lethal shock."

I used to read the car evaluations in the annual book, but then I realized
that "electrical problems" can mean either a fuse replacement or your entire
wiring harness catching fire.

[Dave Martindale]

Post by Big Bill
There's certainly nothing wrong with using newsgroups for this, but,
IMO, restricting yourself to CU for technical reviews of digital
cameras means you are missing a *LOT*.

Consumer Reports is pretty good at evaluating things that you regard as
a commodity, like appliances. If you want a reliable camera that washes
your clothes, er, shoots photos on auto with resolution sufficient for
4x6 prints and nothing more, CR is a good source of info.

But if someone expects to use the camera in non-auto mode, or edit
images in Photoshop, or make large prints, they are an enthusiast (at
least to some extent) and CR's lowest-common-denominator reports leave
out a lot of info they might care about. Newsgroups and review sites
are much better.

Dave

[Anthony Matonak]

Susan (Graphic Artist) wrote:
...

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
So, is this my new AA battery summary correct (if not, what is wrong)?
- $350, 3MP, 10x zoom, Canon PowerShot S1IS I takes AA batteries native
- $550, 5MP, 8x zoom, Nikon CoolPix 5700 is $150 more for AA batteries
- $800, 8MP, 7x zoom, DiMAGE Minolta A2 is maybe $100 more for AA?
Please help me as I am utterly amazed there are only three cameras
which even come close to these pretty universal simple 4 features.
- AA batteries
- Excellent photo quality
- 7x zoom
- Compact Flash

I think the part you're not clear on is that these features are by no
means universal. If they were then every camera would have them. The
most limiting factors on your list are the AA batteries and Compact
Flash. I would focus more on the other features as it's easy enough
to work around memory and batteries.

For instance, CF memory isn't any less expensive, or more expensive,
than any other digital camera memory. You might find it better to
buy the kind of camera you really desire and switch to using whatever
storage it takes. You can always sell the CF memory on ebay or the
like. Memory card readers usually read all the popular types of cards
anyhow so compatibility shouldn't be an issue.

You can also get external battery packs for digital cameras. I'm sure
one or more of these have the option to use AA batteries. The camera
would need an external power jack but with the way these things eat
batteries, I would be surprised if they didn't. Even so, I wouldn't
count on disposable AA's for anything except emergency use.

Anthony

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

The limiting factors are AA batteries and Compact Flash.

I was wonderin' why there was only 1 or 3 cameras on earth which
satisfied what I thought was a very simple and universally held set of
4 needs ...

it's easy enough to work around memory and batteries ...

I'm sick and tired of proprietary battery packs going bad or forgetting
them or forgetting the charger or carrying them all around or plugging
them in or bringing european adaptors or buying hugely expensive
75-dollar batteries in a rush without being able to shop for price ...

Same thing with the memory cards (although not as vehement :) ... I
already have the CF PCMCIA adapters (albeit these are inexpensive) in
all my laptops (I never use wires or software to transfer photos to the
laptop hard drive) and I already have a huge investment in 8Mbyte, 32
Mbyte, 128 Mbyte, 256 Mbyte, 512 Mbyte and now 1 Gbyte compact flash
cards (which have served me well over the years for a variety of
electronic needs). I have no desire to change formats just like I don't
switch from the PC to Linux to the MAC (and all that entails) for ever
piece of software I download to edit photos.

For instance, CF memory isn't any less expensive, or more expensive,
than any other digital camera memory.

I should have made it clear that the only reason for CF is that I chose
CF and it has served me well over the years and I don't want to have to
mix media all over again. Funny ... in a way it's the same as the
battery problem. I wish the manufacturers would just standardize on a
single format and be done with it. Like with PC USB 2.0 compatibility,
if someone wanted a secondary format, they could support BOTH and we'd
all benefit from a little bit of engineering. As stated, CF isn't that
BIG compared to the other formats.

Memory card readers usually read all the popular types of cards
anyhow so compatibility shouldn't be an issue.

I use PCMCIA adapters for the Compact Flash media (all laptops in my
house).
(Yes, I *know* they use proprietary batteries!)
Do they even make a PCMCIA adaptor that handles all card types?

I wouldn't count on disposable AA's for anything except emergency use.

Agreed. I use Ni-MH batteries from CostCo.
I only count on disposable alkaline AAs for emergency use.
That's the fundamental beauty of the AA batteries in the first place!

Susan Henderson

[Big Bill]

On 10 Jun 2005 09:25:23 -0700, "Susan (Graphic Artist)"

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

The limiting factors are AA batteries and Compact Flash.

I was wonderin' why there was only 1 or 3 cameras on earth which
satisfied what I thought was a very simple and universally held set of
4 needs ...

It w3ould seem to be reasonable to think that if they were indeed
"universally held" set of needs, there would be more cameras meeting
them. That there aren't means that either most makers are stupid, or
these aren't really "universally held".
I go for the latter. :-)

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

it's easy enough to work around memory and batteries ...

I'm sick and tired of proprietary battery packs going bad or forgetting
them or forgetting the charger or carrying them all around or plugging
them in or bringing european adaptors or buying hugely expensive
75-dollar batteries in a rush without being able to shop for price ...

Forgetting the charger will not go away with AAs.
A rush may be an emergency for you, but...
$75 batteries? CU can't show you how to buy something other than OEM?
Adapters for foreign countries will still be required for that AA
charger. And AA chargers still need to be arried around.
And AAs go bad, too.
It would seem that you've not really thought this one through well.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Same thing with the memory cards (although not as vehement :) ... I
already have the CF PCMCIA adapters (albeit these are inexpensive) in
all my laptops (I never use wires or software to transfer photos to the
laptop hard drive) and I already have a huge investment in 8Mbyte, 32
Mbyte, 128 Mbyte, 256 Mbyte, 512 Mbyte and now 1 Gbyte compact flash
cards (which have served me well over the years for a variety of
electronic needs). I have no desire to change formats just like I don't
switch from the PC to Linux to the MAC (and all that entails) for ever
piece of software I download to edit photos.

No problem. CF is very popular, and will continue to be so.
Although, that "huge" investment in your CF cards below 512 MB is
gone; they are dirt cheap now.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

For instance, CF memory isn't any less expensive, or more expensive,
than any other digital camera memory.

I should have made it clear that the only reason for CF is that I chose
CF and it has served me well over the years and I don't want to have to
mix media all over again. Funny ... in a way it's the same as the
battery problem. I wish the manufacturers would just standardize on a
single format and be done with it. Like with PC USB 2.0 compatibility,
if someone wanted a secondary format, they could support BOTH and we'd
all benefit from a little bit of engineering. As stated, CF isn't that
BIG compared to the other formats.

Memory card readers usually read all the popular types of cards
anyhow so compatibility shouldn't be an issue.

I use PCMCIA adapters for the Compact Flash media (all laptops in my
house).
(Yes, I *know* they use proprietary batteries!)
Do they even make a PCMCIA adaptor that handles all card types?

I wouldn't count on disposable AA's for anything except emergency use.

Agreed. I use Ni-MH batteries from CostCo.
I only count on disposable alkaline AAs for emergency use.
That's the fundamental beauty of the AA batteries in the first place!
Susan Henderson

[Ken Weitzel]

Big Bill wrote:

<snip>

Post by Big Bill
Forgetting the charger will not go away with AAs.
A rush may be an emergency for you, but...
$75 batteries? CU can't show you how to buy something other than OEM?
Adapters for foreign countries will still be required for that AA
charger. And AA chargers still need to be arried around.
And AAs go bad, too.
It would seem that you've not really thought this one through well.

Hi...

I have thought it through, and agree that I do indeed want
AA's whenever possible...

Example. Few years ago visiting South Dakota... darned
memory... the former US presidents carved into a mountain.

Standing close to some folks who had a really really heavy
English accent. We said hello to one another; and they asked
if I knew of a close place out of the "tourist trap" where
they could get some AA alkalines, because there batteries were
close to gone. I didn't - not local, not even American.

But I did loan them my fully charged spare set; we walked
back to the parking lot and put theirs on charge in our car,
and went back to have lunch which would of course give them
at least an hour or two's charging.

They wouldn't take no to paying for lunch; so - given that
our trip was almost over, we didn't take no to them keeping
our spare set of NiMh's.

Everything's so much easier when everyone helps one another,
but could we have done that if it weren't for the compatability
of AA's?

Ken

[Big Bill]

Post by C. Massey
<snip>

Post by Big Bill
Forgetting the charger will not go away with AAs.
A rush may be an emergency for you, but...
$75 batteries? CU can't show you how to buy something other than OEM?
Adapters for foreign countries will still be required for that AA
charger. And AA chargers still need to be arried around.
And AAs go bad, too.
It would seem that you've not really thought this one through well.

Hi...
I have thought it through, and agree that I do indeed want
AA's whenever possible...
Example. Few years ago visiting South Dakota... darned
memory... the former US presidents carved into a mountain.
Standing close to some folks who had a really really heavy
English accent. We said hello to one another; and they asked
if I knew of a close place out of the "tourist trap" where
they could get some AA alkalines, because there batteries were
close to gone. I didn't - not local, not even American.
But I did loan them my fully charged spare set; we walked
back to the parking lot and put theirs on charge in our car,
and went back to have lunch which would of course give them
at least an hour or two's charging.
They wouldn't take no to paying for lunch; so - given that
our trip was almost over, we didn't take no to them keeping
our spare set of NiMh's.
Everything's so much easier when everyone helps one another,
but could we have done that if it weren't for the compatability
of AA's?

Running out of batteries (or charge) is a unhiversal problemthat's
easily fixable,without the need to use AAs.
The ability to remedy a problem that continues to crop up *because of
a lack of recognition* of that problem is nice, but it's far better to
recognize the problem *beforehand* and plan for it.
IOW, the fascination for AAs here as a solution to a problem seems to
be rought about by a lack of ability to ensure the problem doesn't
occur. In my case, using a Digital Rebel/300D, I have *NEVER* run out
of battery charge. Why? Because I plan ahead, not because of using
AAs. It's isn'thard, isn't very expensive, and is no problem at all.
True, I can't lend any AAs to British tourists who don't plan ahead,
but that really doesn't ruin my day.

Post by C. Massey
Ken

[The Real Bev]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

The limiting factors are AA batteries and Compact Flash.

I was wonderin' why there was only 1 or 3 cameras on earth which
satisfied what I thought was a very simple and universally held set of
4 needs ...

it's easy enough to work around memory and batteries ...

I'm sick and tired of proprietary battery packs going bad or forgetting
them or forgetting the charger or carrying them all around or plugging
them in or bringing european adaptors or buying hugely expensive
75-dollar batteries in a rush without being able to shop for price ...

My husband made a battery pack for his walkman out of a double D-size battery
holder from radio shack, some wire and a plug. D batteries are way cheaper to
use than AAs.

[Big Bill]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:27:29 -0700, The Real Bev

Post by The Real Bev

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

The limiting factors are AA batteries and Compact Flash.

I was wonderin' why there was only 1 or 3 cameras on earth which
satisfied what I thought was a very simple and universally held set of
4 needs ...

it's easy enough to work around memory and batteries ...

I'm sick and tired of proprietary battery packs going bad or forgetting
them or forgetting the charger or carrying them all around or plugging
them in or bringing european adaptors or buying hugely expensive
75-dollar batteries in a rush without being able to shop for price ...

My husband made a battery pack for his walkman out of a double D-size battery
holder from radio shack, some wire and a plug. D batteries are way cheaper to
use than AAs.

When I had an Oly 3030, I used a small 6v gell cell battery as a
battery pack. I got a nylon camera case that fit it, and carried it on
my belt. A home-made cable connected to the power jack, and it would
power the camera all day easily, even in museums where flash use was
the norm.
Definitely better than a pocket full of AAs.

[Dave Martindale]

Post by Big Bill
When I had an Oly 3030, I used a small 6v gell cell battery as a
battery pack. I got a nylon camera case that fit it, and carried it on
my belt. A home-made cable connected to the power jack, and it would
power the camera all day easily, even in museums where flash use was
the norm.
Definitely better than a pocket full of AAs.

I'd take the pocket full of AAs. For the same amount of energy
capacity, NiMH cells are a lot lighter than the lead acid gel cell. So
I'd be carrying around less weight for the same amount of shooting.

Of course, I'd have to stop to change batteries occasionally, and have
some system for separating fresh from used cells. But with the gell
cell, I'd have a cord connecting the battery to the camera all the time,
which is also an inconvenience. I think these two roughly cancel each
other, so weight remains the main difference.

Dave

[SoCalMike]

Post by Dave Martindale

Post by Big Bill
When I had an Oly 3030, I used a small 6v gell cell battery as a
battery pack. I got a nylon camera case that fit it, and carried it on
my belt. A home-made cable connected to the power jack, and it would
power the camera all day easily, even in museums where flash use was
the norm.
Definitely better than a pocket full of AAs.

I'd take the pocket full of AAs. For the same amount of energy
capacity, NiMH cells are a lot lighter than the lead acid gel cell. So
I'd be carrying around less weight for the same amount of shooting.
Of course, I'd have to stop to change batteries occasionally, and have
some system for separating fresh from used cells. But with the gell
cell, I'd have a cord connecting the battery to the camera all the time,
which is also an inconvenience. I think these two roughly cancel each
other, so weight remains the main difference.
Dave

the only 6v gels im familiar with are those 5lb ones used in kids riding
toys. id hate to have one of those hanging off my belt.

[ASAAR]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
So, is this my new AA battery summary correct (if not, what is wrong)?
- $350, 3MP, 10x zoom, Canon PowerShot S1IS I takes AA batteries native
- $550, 5MP, 8x zoom, Nikon CoolPix 5700 is $150 more for AA batteries
- $800, 8MP, 7x zoom, DiMAGE Minolta A2 is maybe $100 more for AA?
Please help me as I am utterly amazed there are only three cameras
which even come close to these pretty universal simple 4 features.
- AA batteries
- Excellent photo quality
- 7x zoom
- Compact Flash

Does the new Canon S2 IS not meet your requirements? If it
doesn't, I imagine that it would be due to replacing CF with SD
cards. It replaces the 3mp sensor in the S1 IS with a 5mp sensor.

How about the Fuji S7000? It's zoom is a bit lower than you
specified, only 6x, but it uses AA batteries, CF cards, and has the
Super CCD 6mp sensor that's capable of being interpolated to a
bloated 12mp, but you don't have to use that feature if you don't
want to.

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

Post by ASAAR
Does the new Canon S2 IS not meet your requirements?

I didn't even KNOW it existed! Maybe this is the ticket.
Especially since the 3MP S1 IS is kind'a limited on enlargements.

Post by ASAAR
I imagine that it would be due to replacing CF with SD cards.

Oh. Oh. Bummer. It loses. SD is not acceptable for the reasons stated
prior.

Post by ASAAR
How about the Fuji S7000? It's zoom is a bit lower than you
specified, only 6x, but it uses AA batteries, CF cards

Now 'yer talking!
Let me check this out.
For some reason, Consumer Reports lists this camera as xD & microdrive
but not compact flash. I'll need to check up on that as this confuses
me as I see on DPreview that it takes SD and microdrive.

If I use CF, will it fit in something labeled as "microdrive" but not
CF?

Confused,
Susan Henderson

[Rod Speed]

Its terminally stupid to be limiting your choices with
that silly requirement that it must use AA batterys.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media
I ask for your help in that I've only found ONE camera which comes
close to meeting these 4 simple (and, I'd bet, pretty univerally held)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)

More fool you.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
- Excellent picture quality (I trust in Consumer Reports measurements)
- 7x - 10x optical zoom (equivalent to about 200 mm or more)
- Compact Flash media (I already have many CF cards & PCMCIA readers)
- Canon Powershot S1 IS (3.2 MP)
But I'd like a 5 megapixel or larger (for enlargements if needed).
Also this digital camera doesn't have a macro capability.
(Ad copy says it can focus at 4 inches so that seems like a built-in
macro non-macro to me ... what do you think)?
Is there any AA,CF,7x, camera with good photo quality on earth?
Susan Henderson

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

Post by Rod Speed
Its terminally stupid to be limiting your choices with
that silly requirement that it must use AA batterys.

I think I understand your point about AA batteries.
One the one hand, the battery has nothing to do with the pictures.
So, you are correct. I am an idiot for making AA a requirement.

On the other hand, when I vacation, I carry with me:
- a Nikon CoolPix 5700 (which needs at least 2 proprietary batteries)
- a JVC video camera (which needs at least 2 proprietary batteries)
- a Garmin GPS unit (which takes AA batteries)
- a Maglight flashlight (which takes AA batteries)
etc.

That means I have to carry additional batteries (one or two are never
enough as you well know) and of course I need to carry separate
additional battery chargers and I can't substitute one for the other
and (much worse) I can't stop at the local A&P to pick up an emergency
battery if I need to.

Add the fact that battery packs (by their electrical nature of
positive-minus butt-to-nose abutment) ALWAYS go bad (one cell reverse
polarizes) and, therefore, need to be constantly replaced at an
exhorbitant cost (NiMH cost about two bucks ... try to get a battery
pack for a camera for two bucks).

Add to that the waste to the earth's resources (personally I think the
government should mandate single-cell batteries in all electronics in a
save-the-landfill effort like they mandate the 5 cents per soda
waste-return program).

And the horrid cost!
Recently I paid over $75 dollars retail for the JVC replacement battery
(the only one in the store was the Everready Energizer ERC620 camcorder
battery).

Now for paying $75 for a stinkin' battery, you _can_ call me a
terminally stupid idiot! :)

I could have purchased a fifty pound car battery for that much.

End result:
I am never again buying any electronics that does not take single-cell
rechargable batteries! I'm sure I'm not the only one so please come to
my defence if you agree, so we can get back to the photographic
equipment question at hand.

Are these really the only three digital cameras on earth that take
single-cell batteries and have decent picture quality, zoom, and
compact flash cards?

- $350, 3MP, 10x zoom, Canon PowerShot S1IS I takes AA batteries native
- $550, 5MP, 8x zoom, Nikon CoolPix 5700 is $150 more for AA batteries
- $800, 8MP, 7x zoom, DiMAGE Minolta A2 is maybe $100 more for AA?

Susan Henderson

[Ron Hunter]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

Post by Rod Speed
Its terminally stupid to be limiting your choices with
that silly requirement that it must use AA batterys.

I think I understand your point about AA batteries.
One the one hand, the battery has nothing to do with the pictures.
So, you are correct. I am an idiot for making AA a requirement.
- a Nikon CoolPix 5700 (which needs at least 2 proprietary batteries)
- a JVC video camera (which needs at least 2 proprietary batteries)
- a Garmin GPS unit (which takes AA batteries)
- a Maglight flashlight (which takes AA batteries)
etc.
That means I have to carry additional batteries (one or two are never
enough as you well know) and of course I need to carry separate
additional battery chargers and I can't substitute one for the other
and (much worse) I can't stop at the local A&P to pick up an emergency
battery if I need to.
Add the fact that battery packs (by their electrical nature of
positive-minus butt-to-nose abutment) ALWAYS go bad (one cell reverse
polarizes) and, therefore, need to be constantly replaced at an
exhorbitant cost (NiMH cost about two bucks ... try to get a battery
pack for a camera for two bucks).
Add to that the waste to the earth's resources (personally I think the
government should mandate single-cell batteries in all electronics in a
save-the-landfill effort like they mandate the 5 cents per soda
waste-return program).
And the horrid cost!
Recently I paid over $75 dollars retail for the JVC replacement battery
(the only one in the store was the Everready Energizer ERC620 camcorder
battery).
Now for paying $75 for a stinkin' battery, you _can_ call me a
terminally stupid idiot! :)
I could have purchased a fifty pound car battery for that much.
I am never again buying any electronics that does not take single-cell
rechargable batteries! I'm sure I'm not the only one so please come to
my defence if you agree, so we can get back to the photographic
equipment question at hand.
Are these really the only three digital cameras on earth that take
single-cell batteries and have decent picture quality, zoom, and
compact flash cards?
- $350, 3MP, 10x zoom, Canon PowerShot S1IS I takes AA batteries native
- $550, 5MP, 8x zoom, Nikon CoolPix 5700 is $150 more for AA batteries
- $800, 8MP, 7x zoom, DiMAGE Minolta A2 is maybe $100 more for AA?
Susan Henderson

It would seem that way. Camera manufacturers are much more concerned
with profits than user convenience. They see the lithium ion batteries
as a profit opportunity, and a design convenience. CF cards aren't all
that big, so I see little advantage to the other types of cards unless
the camera is REALLY small, but the smaller components are another
design convenience, and smaller usually means cheaper. It seems you
will be forced to compromise, as I did, and buy something with AA
batteries and SD cards... Lots of options when you make the CF/SD card
compromise.

[Out There]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
- a Nikon CoolPix 5700 (which needs at least 2 proprietary batteries)
- a JVC video camera (which needs at least 2 proprietary batteries)
- a Garmin GPS unit (which takes AA batteries)
- a Maglight flashlight (which takes AA batteries)

You can save more space than the extra batteries if you leave the video
camera at home, and replace the GPS unit with a map, a compass, and a
willingness to ask locals for directions.

As far as your 4 requirements for a camera, you can go even simpler by
selecting a camera that does not use batteries, and uses the most common
type of media there is: film. Going to this lower common denominator
means that you can buy lenses with excellent optics, fulfilling your the
other two requirements easily and at a lower cost.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

Post by Rod Speed
Its terminally stupid to be limiting your choices with
that silly requirement that it must use AA batterys.

I think I understand your point about AA batteries.
One the one hand, the battery has nothing to do with the pictures.
So, you are correct. I am an idiot for making AA a requirement.

Basically because it limits your choice of camera so drastically.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
- a Nikon CoolPix 5700 (which needs at least 2 proprietary batteries)
- a JVC video camera (which needs at least 2 proprietary batteries)
- a Garmin GPS unit (which takes AA batteries)
- a Maglight flashlight (which takes AA batteries)
etc.
That means I have to carry additional batteries (one or two
are never enough as you well know) and of course I need
to carry separate additional battery chargers and I can't
substitute one for the other and (much worse) I can't stop
at the local A&P to pick up an emergency battery if I need to.
Add the fact that battery packs (by their electrical nature
of positive-minus butt-to-nose abutment) ALWAYS go bad
(one cell reverse polarizes) and, therefore, need to be
constantly replaced at an exhorbitant cost (NiMH cost about
two bucks ... try to get a battery pack for a camera for two bucks).

Sure, its certainly desirable to use standard batterys,
AA or AAA, and I do that when I can, but not when it
limits your choice of model so drastically.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Add to that the waste to the earth's resources (personally
I think the government should mandate single-cell batteries
in all electronics in a save-the-landfill effort like they
mandate the 5 cents per soda waste-return program).

That approach has its own environmental downsides.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
And the horrid cost!
Recently I paid over $75 dollars retail for the JVC
replacement battery (the only one in the store was
the Everready Energizer ERC620 camcorder battery).
Now for paying $75 for a stinkin' battery,
you _can_ call me a terminally stupid idiot! :)

You're likely to be paying at least that much extra when you demand a
camera that takes take single-cell rechargable standard format batteries.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
I could have purchased a fifty pound car battery for that much.

Irrelevant.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
I am never again buying any electronics that
does not take single-cell rechargable batteries!

Then you will drastically limit the your
choice with some items like cameras.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
I'm sure I'm not the only one so please
come to my defence if you agree,

I dont.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
so we can get back to the photographic equipment question at hand.

It makes a lot more sense to just accept
that there are few cameras available that take
single-cell rechargable standard format batteries

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Are these really the only three digital cameras on
earth that take single-cell batteries and have decent
picture quality, zoom, and compact flash cards?

Who knows ? Who cares ?

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
- $350, 3MP, 10x zoom, Canon PowerShot S1IS I takes AA batteries native
- $550, 5MP, 8x zoom, Nikon CoolPix 5700 is $150 more for AA batteries
- $800, 8MP, 7x zoom, DiMAGE Minolta A2 is maybe $100 more for AA?

Surely even you can see that demanding AA batterys would be
costing you more than a spare battery pack with the last two ?

[George]

Post by Rod Speed
Its terminally stupid to be limiting your choices with
that silly requirement that it must use AA batterys.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media
I ask for your help in that I've only found ONE camera which comes
close to meeting these 4 simple (and, I'd bet, pretty univerally held)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)

More fool you.

Actually extremely sensible. There is a lot to be said for standard form
factor equipment. If the camera uses a standard form factor battery such
as AA you can use NiMh rechargeables and if you should get in a
situation where you deplete the rechargeables and charging is not
available you can easily pop in a set of akaline batterys which even if
you weren't carrying them as a spare can be purchased most anywhere.

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
- Excellent picture quality (I trust in Consumer Reports measurements)
- 7x - 10x optical zoom (equivalent to about 200 mm or more)
- Compact Flash media (I already have many CF cards & PCMCIA readers)
- Canon Powershot S1 IS (3.2 MP)
But I'd like a 5 megapixel or larger (for enlargements if needed).
Also this digital camera doesn't have a macro capability.
(Ad copy says it can focus at 4 inches so that seems like a built-in
macro non-macro to me ... what do you think)?
Is there any AA,CF,7x, camera with good photo quality on earth?
Susan Henderson

[Bill 2]

Post by George

Post by Rod Speed
Its terminally stupid to be limiting your choices with
that silly requirement that it must use AA batterys.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media
I ask for your help in that I've only found ONE camera which comes
close to meeting these 4 simple (and, I'd bet, pretty univerally held)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)

More fool you.

Actually extremely sensible. There is a lot to be said for standard form
factor equipment. If the camera uses a standard form factor battery such
as AA you can use NiMh rechargeables and if you should get in a situation
where you deplete the rechargeables and charging is not available you can
easily pop in a set of akaline batterys which even if you weren't carrying
them as a spare can be purchased most anywhere.

I wouldn't pop in alkalines, camera would kill them in short order. I'd at
least try to find one time use lithium batteries.

[The Real Bev]

Post by Bill 2

Post by George
Actually extremely sensible. There is a lot to be said for standard form
factor equipment. If the camera uses a standard form factor battery such
as AA you can use NiMh rechargeables and if you should get in a situation
where you deplete the rechargeables and charging is not available you can
easily pop in a set of akaline batterys which even if you weren't carrying
them as a spare can be purchased most anywhere.

I wouldn't pop in alkalines, camera would kill them in short order. I'd at
least try to find one time use lithium batteries.

They're not dead, just no longer useful for high-drain applications. They'll
do fine in radios etc.

Useful URLs that nobody has mentioned so far:

http://www.steves-digicams.com/hardware_reviews.html
http://www.dpreview.com/
http://www.thomas-distributing.com
http://www.thomas-distributing.com/maha-educate-batteries.htm

[Rod Speed]

Post by George

Post by Rod Speed
Its terminally stupid to be limiting your choices with
that silly requirement that it must use AA batterys.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media
I ask for your help in that I've only found ONE camera which comes
close to meeting these 4 simple (and, I'd bet, pretty univerally held)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)

More fool you.

Actually extremely sensible.

Nope, not when it limits the choice of camera to just one camera it isnt.

Post by George
There is a lot to be said for standard form factor equipment. If the camera
uses a standard form factor battery such as AA you can use NiMh rechargeables
and if you should get in a situation where you deplete the rechargeables and
charging is not available you can easily pop in a set of akaline batterys
which even if you weren't carrying them as a spare can be purchased most
anywhere.

Pity about the dismal choice of camera if you require
it uses AA batterys and that particular media card.

Post by George

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
- Excellent picture quality (I trust in Consumer Reports measurements)
- 7x - 10x optical zoom (equivalent to about 200 mm or more)
- Compact Flash media (I already have many CF cards & PCMCIA readers)
- Canon Powershot S1 IS (3.2 MP)
But I'd like a 5 megapixel or larger (for enlargements if needed).
Also this digital camera doesn't have a macro capability.
(Ad copy says it can focus at 4 inches so that seems like a built-in
macro non-macro to me ... what do you think)?
Is there any AA,CF,7x, camera with good photo quality on earth?

[Joseph Meehan]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media

The Canon 20D w/ battery grip and a good zoom will fit all of your
requirements and more. It will be expensive.

Frankly I think you are too stuck in the past. CF media is fine, but I
would not and did not choose a camera based on a specific media.

AA batteries are fine, but don't knock other sizes. Batteries are just
not that expensive and with a small charger and a few batteries your are
set.

As expensive as they are, I have to consider digital cameras of today as
disposable, just as I consider my computer that way. Times change too fast.

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

[Proprietary camera] batteries are not that expensive

I just paid $75 for a camcorder battery (Everready Energizer ER-C620)
for my JVC camcorder and I'm on my fourth or fifth $60 battery for my
Nikon CoolPix 5700 so I just might beg to differ with you on that
point. :) Multi-cell battery packs are highly unreliable (so are AAs
but you can easily swap a bad cell out), especially due to reverse
polarity issues killing the entire pack within a year or two.

Besides the cost, there's the fact that I'm way more likely to be stuck
without juice with the proprietary batteries than with standard-size
batteries.

And, besides the cost and fact my camera is useless for lack of juice,
there's the wide assortment of chargers, wires, and plugs I have to
deal with (as a camera isn't my only electronic stowaway when I
frequently travel).

I just can't believe there are from 1 to 4 cameras on earth which
satisfy these simple requirements (standard batteries, quality photos,
decent zoom, and standard media).

But, I do appreciate all the advice ... you're helping me ... and
others.
Susan Henderson

[DFS]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

[Proprietary camera] batteries are not that expensive

I just paid $75 for a camcorder battery (Everready Energizer ER-C620)
for my JVC camcorder and I'm on my fourth or fifth $60 battery for my
Nikon CoolPix 5700 so I just might beg to differ with you on that
point. :)

-------------------------------------------
Careful shoppers don't pay much (if any) more for proprietary batteries than
for AA rechargeable. Pricegrabber lists sources for your camcorder battery
at $17.95 on up to what you paid. You could have had a battery for the
5700 for $11.95 from SterlingTek.com.

Batteries for the Canon digicams, G series and first generation Rebel are
also now available for less than the price of AA rechargeable. I use an old
Canon G2.I've had the camera and four batteries for three or four years.
Three batteries were cheapies, one the original Canon, packed with the
camera. Canon brand battery is the only one that isn't still holding a full
charge.

Your point on multiple chargers is well taken, though I have a small pouch
that holds them all and gets tossed into the checked bag to avoid carry-on
weight and scrutiny.

DS

[The Real Bev]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

[Proprietary camera] batteries are not that expensive

I just paid $75 for a camcorder battery (Everready Energizer ER-C620)
for my JVC camcorder and I'm on my fourth or fifth $60 battery for my
Nikon CoolPix 5700 so I just might beg to differ with you on that
point. :) Multi-cell battery packs are highly unreliable (so are AAs
but you can easily swap a bad cell out), especially due to reverse
polarity issues killing the entire pack within a year or two.
Besides the cost, there's the fact that I'm way more likely to be stuck
without juice with the proprietary batteries than with standard-size
batteries.
And, besides the cost and fact my camera is useless for lack of juice,
there's the wide assortment of chargers, wires, and plugs I have to
deal with (as a camera isn't my only electronic stowaway when I
frequently travel).
I just can't believe there are from 1 to 4 cameras on earth which
satisfy these simple requirements (standard batteries, quality photos,
decent zoom, and standard media).

"Decent" zoom is 3x optical, which is common and decent. My Coolpix 800 which
I bought at Thanksgiving 2000 fits your other criteria, so you want
exceptional zoom. You forgot to mention write speed, which I would consider
more important than the zoom. If you get a huge number of megapixels you can
just crop out the middle and there you are.

I'd like the 800 to be faster and I'd especially like it if they'd spent the
extra dime to put a second eyelet on it so I could wear it around my neck like
normal people do. Carrying a camera on your wrist is an open invitation to
smash it against something hard just by unthinkingly turning around quickly.

No, hanging it around my neck using the single eyelet is NOT the same.

[Ken Burns]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)

That means that you will never again buy electronics.

KB

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

Post by Ken Burns

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)

That means that you will never again buy electronics.

I understand your point.

In fact, I wish my laptops and cell phones would use standard-size
batteries.

In double fact, I'll pay MORE for a laptop or cell phone which used
standard-sized batteries.

If we ALL did this, the price would go down as we'd have MANY suppliers
for batteries, and we'd be able to re-use our batteries for more than
one electronic device and there would be LOWER COST BETTER EQUIPMENT
ALWAYS USABLE in the end, for all of us, for all our electronics.

Am I the ONLY one who sees this enchanting possibility of progress? :)

Wondering aloud,
Susan Henderson

[Rod Speed]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

Post by Ken Burns

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)

That means that you will never again buy electronics.

I understand your point.
In fact, I wish my laptops and cell phones would use standard-size batteries.

There is a good reason why they dont, its too limiting
to the design, particularly with cellphones and cameras.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
In double fact, I'll pay MORE for a laptop or
cell phone which used standard-sized batteries.

Yet you objected to the optional battery packs for cameras that allow that.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
If we ALL did this,

That isnt going to happen with anything.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
the price would go down as we'd have MANY suppliers for batteries,

Thats arguable with enough suppliers of the specialist batterys now.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
and we'd be able to re-use our batteries for more than one electronic
device and there would be LOWER COST BETTER EQUIPMENT
ALWAYS USABLE in the end, for all of us, for all our electronics.

Thats never going to happen, for the same reason there
isnt just one format with non rechargable batterys either.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Am I the ONLY one who sees this enchanting possibility of progress? :)

Its just your pathetic little drug crazed fantasy |-)

There's quite a bit of use of AAA instead of AA format now, and
if you think about it for a moment, there is a good reason for that.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Ken Burns

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)

That means that you will never again buy electronics.

Thats just plain wrong, some products are tending towards the use
of standard format rechargeable cells, most obviously cordless phones.

[Big Bill]

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Ken Burns

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)

That means that you will never again buy electronics.

Thats just plain wrong, some products are tending towards the use
of standard format rechargeable cells, most obviously cordless phones.

Yes, almost every cordless phone (as opposed to cell phones) I've
owned have had battery packs that consist of bundled rechargable AAA
batteries; size isn't a paramount consideration.
But with other devices (cell phones and cameras, as examples), small
size *is* important. That's one of the major reasons their batteries
are the way they are; AAs and AAAs don't allow the small sizes the
consumers obviously want.

[Rod Speed]

Post by Big Bill

Post by Rod Speed

Post by Ken Burns

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)

That means that you will never again buy electronics.

Thats just plain wrong, some products are tending towards the use
of standard format rechargeable cells, most obviously cordless phones.

Yes, almost every cordless phone (as opposed to cell phones)
I've owned have had battery packs that consist of bundled
rechargable AAA batteries; size isn't a paramount consideration.
But with other devices (cell phones and cameras, as examples),
small size *is* important. That's one of the major reasons their
batteries are the way they are; AAs and AAAs don't allow the
small sizes the consumers obviously want.

Thats what I said in another post. I was just commenting on Ken's
'electronics' claim. That should have been obvious from my 'some products'.

[C. Massey]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media

<snip>


Check out http://www.steves-digicams.com . This guy has reviews and specs
with sample pics from tons of cameras!

[Roger]

On 10 Jun 2005 00:25:30 -0700, "Susan (Graphic Artist)"

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media
I ask for your help in that I've only found ONE camera which comes
close to meeting these 4 simple (and, I'd bet, pretty univerally held)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)
- Excellent picture quality (I trust in Consumer Reports measurements)
- 7x - 10x optical zoom (equivalent to about 200 mm or more)
- Compact Flash media (I already have many CF cards & PCMCIA readers)

Susan,

I hope you are able to find what you are looking for. Please let us
know how your search comes out. When I was looking for my digital
camera I had a similar set of requirements, but I had to relax them
considerably. After careful consideration of each, I'm very pleased
with my choice. The one major difference in our requirements was that
I was looking for a lens that was at least 28mm (35mm FOV equivalent)
at the wide end of the zoom but the tele extent was not a factor.

I went with a Canon S60 but that comes no where near your zoom
requirements.

I actually like the Canon battery for the S60 much better than AA's,
but I don't know the root of your requirement and I might just be
blowing smoke with the rest of this. I find the s60 battery life to be
entirely adequate for a day of touring (about 200 pictures), much
easier to change and smaller than a set of "replacement AA's. It comes
with a very compact charger that I can carry with me at all times (and
do), fits discretely in the wall socket with no cords and can be used
in hotel room "shaver" outlets throughout the world. I have three
batteries and find that I really need only two. For my needs, these
are really a better answer than AA's.

I trust DPreview http://www.dpreview.com image quality evaluations
much more than Consumer Reports. If you haven't used dpreview as a
resource, it might be able to help you fill in some holes in your
search.

As you know most Canon's and Nikons take CF, however there cameras in
each line that don't.

I know the Nikon D70 does not take AA's, but with the 28-200 it does
meet your other requirements. Battery life is excellent. A spare is a
reasonable cost for the function.

I kept track of my AA and rechargeable AA usage and I'm finding that
the LiIon rechargeable proprietary batteries are generating, by
volume, much less waste than all other batteries that I use. They are
much more efficient and useable (charge wise) than NiMH batteries. My
company provides a battery recycling service for everything so I'm
somewhat assured that the environmental impact is less with the
proprietary ones.


I hope your search comes to a fruitful and timely end.

Regards,
Roger

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

I had a similar set of requirements, but I had to relax them ...

I'm hoping not to. :)

I don't know the root of your [AA battery] requirement ...

Actually it doesn't have to be AA; just standard-size rechargable.
I have tons of CostCo Ni-MH (2 bucks each, Panasonic 2300 mAh AAs).

I find the s60 battery life to be adequate for a day ...

I use fill flash on EVERY shot; I only do portraits; I snap about 25
photos a day on average but when I'm somewhere, I take upwards of 300 a
day, again, all with fill-flash on every single shot (to illuminate or
lessen harsh shadows).

It comes with a very compact charger ...

I'm sick and tired of proprietary chargers, carrying them past snooping
airport screeners, bringing power strips into the hotel room just to
plug them all in, forgetting them and getting only 1 day of shots for a
two-week vacation, etc.

I have three batteries and find that I really need only two ...

Yes. But every year an internal cell goes bad and we have to purchase
another $75 proprietary battery pack (throwing the old one in the
trash). I'm sick and tired of the battery-packs going dead on me within
a year. Of course, AA's go dead too, but, I have dozens of 'em and I
can easily replace it on the fly with alkalines whenever I'm in a
crush.

I trust DPreview http://www.dpreview.com image quality evaluations ...

Very nice site! I did not know about that. If I combine the Consumer
Reports and DP Review reviews with this newsgroup's advice, that should
get us the correct answer (each one correcting for the others'
foibles).

I know the Nikon D70 does not take AA's ...

Then it's out of the picture. :)
There's a reason I list AA above image quality. It's not negotiable. :)
Neither is image quality, mind you ... my first four requirements are:
- standard batteries
- image quality
- reasonable zoom (stabilization was a factor I unknowingly omitted)
- compact flash (I'm still unsure why CR lists microdrive and not CF
for some cameras as the help on DP Review says they are basically the
same thing in the one direction I want to go).

I'd assume these are pretty common requirements as there is nothing
wierd or out of the ordinary about this. Notice I didn't even mention
megapixels (obviously the more the better the enlargement) or cost
(obviously the lower the better) or other features (which are important
too but it's just too difficult to compare more than 4 requirements
when all the cameras in the world are in the running for the first
cut). I'm still amazed that only three (now maybe four with the 6x Fuji
S7000 with microdrive addition) cameras on earth meet these four very
simple (and very common, I'd guess) needs. :(

I hope your search comes to a fruitful and timely end.

Thank you (and everyone!). It is sad to say there is only one or two
(maybe s many as four) cameras which even come close to meeting these
four very simple requirements (standard batteries, excellent quality,
7x zoom, & CF media).

Susan Henderson

Susan,
I hope you are able to find what you are looking for. Please let us
know how your search comes out. When I was looking for my digital
camera I had a similar set of requirements, but I had to relax them
considerably. After careful consideration of each, I'm very pleased
with my choice. The one major difference in our requirements was that
I was looking for a lens that was at least 28mm (35mm FOV equivalent)
at the wide end of the zoom but the tele extent was not a factor.
I went with a Canon S60 but that comes no where near your zoom
requirements.
I actually like the Canon battery for the S60 much better than AA's,
but I don't know the root of your requirement and I might just be
blowing smoke with the rest of this. I find the s60 battery life to be
entirely adequate for a day of touring (about 200 pictures), much
easier to change and smaller than a set of "replacement AA's. It comes
with a very compact charger that I can carry with me at all times (and
do), fits discretely in the wall socket with no cords and can be used
in hotel room "shaver" outlets throughout the world. I have three
batteries and find that I really need only two. For my needs, these
are really a better answer than AA's.
I trust DPreview http://www.dpreview.com image quality evaluations
much more than Consumer Reports. If you haven't used dpreview as a
resource, it might be able to help you fill in some holes in your
search.
As you know most Canon's and Nikons take CF, however there cameras in
each line that don't.
I know the Nikon D70 does not take AA's, but with the 28-200 it does
meet your other requirements. Battery life is excellent. A spare is a
reasonable cost for the function.
I kept track of my AA and rechargeable AA usage and I'm finding that
the LiIon rechargeable proprietary batteries are generating, by
volume, much less waste than all other batteries that I use. They are
much more efficient and useable (charge wise) than NiMH batteries. My
company provides a battery recycling service for everything so I'm
somewhat assured that the environmental impact is less with the
proprietary ones.
I hope your search comes to a fruitful and timely end.
Regards,
Roger

[John A. Stovall]

On 10 Jun 2005 09:05:01 -0700, "Susan (Graphic Artist)"
<***@yahoo.com> wrote:

snipped

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

I know the Nikon D70 does not take AA's ...

Then it's out of the picture. :)
There's a reason I list AA above image quality. It's not negotiable. :)
- standard batteries

The Canon 20D when fitted with a BG-E2 grip will take AA batteries.


************************************************************
"Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely,
according to conscience, above all liberties."

Milton
from
"The Liberty of Unlicensed Printing"
1644

[The Real Bev]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
There's a reason I list AA above image quality. It's not negotiable. :)
- standard batteries
- image quality
- reasonable zoom (stabilization was a factor I unknowingly omitted)
- compact flash (I'm still unsure why CR lists microdrive and not CF
for some cameras as the help on DP Review says they are basically the
same thing in the one direction I want to go).

You can use an ordinary CF card in a microdrive hole, but you can't stuff a
microdrive into an ordinary CF hole.

[Bob Ward]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:41:56 -0700, The Real Bev

Post by The Real Bev
You can use an ordinary CF card in a microdrive hole, but you can't stuff a
microdrive into an ordinary CF hole.

What is this "microdrive hole" you talk about?
http://www.compactflash.org/info/cfinfo.htm
CompactFlash® is a very small removable mass storage device. First
introduced in 1994 by SanDisk Corporation, CF™ cards weigh a half
ounce and are the size of a matchbook. They provide complete
PCMCIA-ATA functionality and compatibility plus TrueIDE functionality
compatible with ATA/ATAPI-4. At 43mm (1.7") x 36mm (1.4") x 3.3mm
(0.13"), the device's thickness is less than one-half of a current
PCMCIA Type II card. It is actually one-fourth the volume of a PCMCIA
card. Compared to a 68-pin PCMCIA card, a CF card has 50 pins but
still conforms to PCMCIA ATA specs. It can be easily slipped into a
passive 68-pin Type II adapter card that fully meets PCMCIA electrical
and mechanical interface specifications.

CompactFlash cards are designed with flash technology, a non-volatile
storage solution that does not require a battery to retain data
indefinitely. CompactFlash storage products are solid state, meaning
they contain no moving parts, and provide users with much greater
protection of their data than conventional magnetic disk drives. They
are five to ten times more rugged and reliable than disk drives
including those found in PC Card Type III products. CF cards consume
only five percent of the power required by small disk drives.

CF cards are also available for data storage using the Microdrive. CF
I/O cards are available as modems, Ethernet, serial, digital phone
cards, laser scanners, BlueTooth wireless, 802.11b WiFi LAN, etc.

[The Real Bev]

Post by Bob Ward
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:41:56 -0700, The Real Bev

Post by The Real Bev
You can use an ordinary CF card in a microdrive hole, but you can't stuff a
microdrive into an ordinary CF hole.

What is this "microdrive hole" you talk about?

OK, how about "slot"? You know, the place in the camera that you put the CF
card or microdrive.

Post by Bob Ward
http://www.compactflash.org/info/cfinfo.htm
CompactFlash® is a very small removable mass storage device. First
introduced in 1994 by SanDisk Corporation, CF? cards weigh a half
ounce and are the size of a matchbook. They provide complete
PCMCIA-ATA functionality and compatibility plus TrueIDE functionality
compatible with ATA/ATAPI-4. At 43mm (1.7") x 36mm (1.4") x 3.3mm
(0.13"), the device's thickness is less than one-half of a current
PCMCIA Type II card. It is actually one-fourth the volume of a PCMCIA
card. Compared to a 68-pin PCMCIA card, a CF card has 50 pins but
still conforms to PCMCIA ATA specs. It can be easily slipped into a
passive 68-pin Type II adapter card that fully meets PCMCIA electrical
and mechanical interface specifications.
CompactFlash cards are designed with flash technology, a non-volatile
storage solution that does not require a battery to retain data
indefinitely. CompactFlash storage products are solid state, meaning
they contain no moving parts, and provide users with much greater
protection of their data than conventional magnetic disk drives. They
are five to ten times more rugged and reliable than disk drives
including those found in PC Card Type III products. CF cards consume
only five percent of the power required by small disk drives.
CF cards are also available for data storage using the Microdrive. CF
I/O cards are available as modems, Ethernet, serial, digital phone
cards, laser scanners, BlueTooth wireless, 802.11b WiFi LAN, etc.

[Bob Ward]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:22:21 -0700, The Real Bev

Post by The Real Bev

Post by Bob Ward
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:41:56 -0700, The Real Bev

Post by The Real Bev
You can use an ordinary CF card in a microdrive hole, but you can't stuff a
microdrive into an ordinary CF hole.

What is this "microdrive hole" you talk about?

OK, how about "slot"? You know, the place in the camera that you put the CF
card or microdrive.

The microdrive fits in a Compact Flash slot. There is only one size
of those, as my cite below spells out.

Post by The Real Bev

Post by Bob Ward
http://www.compactflash.org/info/cfinfo.htm
CompactFlash® is a very small removable mass storage device. First
introduced in 1994 by SanDisk Corporation, CF? cards weigh a half
ounce and are the size of a matchbook. They provide complete
PCMCIA-ATA functionality and compatibility plus TrueIDE functionality
compatible with ATA/ATAPI-4. At 43mm (1.7") x 36mm (1.4") x 3.3mm
(0.13"), the device's thickness is less than one-half of a current
PCMCIA Type II card. It is actually one-fourth the volume of a PCMCIA
card. Compared to a 68-pin PCMCIA card, a CF card has 50 pins but
still conforms to PCMCIA ATA specs. It can be easily slipped into a
passive 68-pin Type II adapter card that fully meets PCMCIA electrical
and mechanical interface specifications.
CompactFlash cards are designed with flash technology, a non-volatile
storage solution that does not require a battery to retain data
indefinitely. CompactFlash storage products are solid state, meaning
they contain no moving parts, and provide users with much greater
protection of their data than conventional magnetic disk drives. They
are five to ten times more rugged and reliable than disk drives
including those found in PC Card Type III products. CF cards consume
only five percent of the power required by small disk drives.
CF cards are also available for data storage using the Microdrive. CF
I/O cards are available as modems, Ethernet, serial, digital phone
cards, laser scanners, BlueTooth wireless, 802.11b WiFi LAN, etc.

[DFS]

Post by Bob Ward
The microdrive fits in a Compact Flash slot. There is only one size
of those, as my cite below spells out.

----------------------------------------------------
Not true.

CF comes in two flavors, type I and type II. Microdrives are type two and
will not fit into a type I slot. The type I (slimmer) media can be used in
either a type I or type II slot.

DS

[Ron Hunter]

Post by Bob Ward
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:22:21 -0700, The Real Bev

Post by The Real Bev

Post by Bob Ward
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:41:56 -0700, The Real Bev

Post by The Real Bev
You can use an ordinary CF card in a microdrive hole, but you can't stuff a
microdrive into an ordinary CF hole.

What is this "microdrive hole" you talk about?

OK, how about "slot"? You know, the place in the camera that you put the CF
card or microdrive.

The microdrive fits in a Compact Flash slot. There is only one size
of those, as my cite below spells out.

Post by The Real Bev

Post by Bob Ward
http://www.compactflash.org/info/cfinfo.htm
CompactFlash® is a very small removable mass storage device. First
introduced in 1994 by SanDisk Corporation, CF? cards weigh a half
ounce and are the size of a matchbook. They provide complete
PCMCIA-ATA functionality and compatibility plus TrueIDE functionality
compatible with ATA/ATAPI-4. At 43mm (1.7") x 36mm (1.4") x 3.3mm
(0.13"), the device's thickness is less than one-half of a current
PCMCIA Type II card. It is actually one-fourth the volume of a PCMCIA
card. Compared to a 68-pin PCMCIA card, a CF card has 50 pins but
still conforms to PCMCIA ATA specs. It can be easily slipped into a
passive 68-pin Type II adapter card that fully meets PCMCIA electrical
and mechanical interface specifications.
CompactFlash cards are designed with flash technology, a non-volatile
storage solution that does not require a battery to retain data
indefinitely. CompactFlash storage products are solid state, meaning
they contain no moving parts, and provide users with much greater
protection of their data than conventional magnetic disk drives. They
are five to ten times more rugged and reliable than disk drives
including those found in PC Card Type III products. CF cards consume
only five percent of the power required by small disk drives.
CF cards are also available for data storage using the Microdrive. CF
I/O cards are available as modems, Ethernet, serial, digital phone
cards, laser scanners, BlueTooth wireless, 802.11b WiFi LAN, etc.

Sigh. WRONG!
There are type I and type II. The Microdrive TypeII, and requires a
slightly thicker 1.1mm thicker, card, and thus a bit wider opening.

[The Real Bev]

Post by Bob Ward

Post by The Real Bev

Post by Bob Ward

Post by The Real Bev
You can use an ordinary CF card in a microdrive hole, but you can't stuff a
microdrive into an ordinary CF hole.

What is this "microdrive hole" you talk about?

OK, how about "slot"? You know, the place in the camera that you put the CF
card or microdrive.

The microdrive fits in a Compact Flash slot. There is only one size
of those, as my cite below spells out.

No it doesn't, actually. CF Type I is the ordinary CF card which is 3.3mm
thick. Microdrives are CF Type II and are 5mm thick. There is no way I could
stuff a card 1.7mm thicker into the slot on my Nikon CP800 camera.

From
http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Camera_System/Storage_Card_01.htm :

================================
CompactFlash
CompactFlash is a proven and reliable format compatible with many devices and
generally ahead of other formats in terms of storage capacity. Capacities
above 2.2 GB require that your camera supports "FAT32". CompactFlash comes in
Type I and II which only differ in thickness (3.3mm and 5.0mm) with Type I
being the most popular for flash memory, while Type II is used by microdrives.

Microdrives
Pioneered by IBM, microdrives are minute hard disks that come in CompactFlash
Type II format and typically offer larger storage capacities at a cheaper cost
per megabyte. However, CompactFlash has been catching up with higher capacity
cards. Microdrives use more battery power, create more heat (which can result
in more noise) and have a higher risk of failure because they contain moving
parts.
==================================

Post by Bob Ward

Post by The Real Bev

Post by Bob Ward
http://www.compactflash.org/info/cfinfo.htm
CompactFlash® is a very small removable mass storage device. First
introduced in 1994 by SanDisk Corporation, CF? cards weigh a half
ounce and are the size of a matchbook. They provide complete
PCMCIA-ATA functionality and compatibility plus TrueIDE functionality
compatible with ATA/ATAPI-4. At 43mm (1.7") x 36mm (1.4") x 3.3mm
(0.13"), the device's thickness is less than one-half of a current
PCMCIA Type II card. It is actually one-fourth the volume of a PCMCIA
card. Compared to a 68-pin PCMCIA card, a CF card has 50 pins but
still conforms to PCMCIA ATA specs. It can be easily slipped into a
passive 68-pin Type II adapter card that fully meets PCMCIA electrical
and mechanical interface specifications.
CompactFlash cards are designed with flash technology, a non-volatile
storage solution that does not require a battery to retain data
indefinitely. CompactFlash storage products are solid state, meaning
they contain no moving parts, and provide users with much greater
protection of their data than conventional magnetic disk drives. They
are five to ten times more rugged and reliable than disk drives
including those found in PC Card Type III products. CF cards consume
only five percent of the power required by small disk drives.
CF cards are also available for data storage using the Microdrive. CF
I/O cards are available as modems, Ethernet, serial, digital phone
cards, laser scanners, BlueTooth wireless, 802.11b WiFi LAN, etc.

[Ron]

I must say I was very devoted to AA's until getting Oly 5060 and E-300
which take (the same) proprietary battery. It isn't just the added
punch, but the ease with which I can exchange batteries, and the tiny
charger which, with another I carry for flashlight AA's, would easily
fit in a coat pocket or shaving kit. And, the propietary batteries I buy
on e-Bay for about seven bucks each work just fine as backups. Where I
do like AA's is with a small camera that takes two of them. My sense is
that in this case one gets a lot more for one's money, particularly if
the camera will take CRV3 rechargeables. As for CF, I'm among those who
had pin problems and had to return a camera for repair. They strike me
as overly delicate. I'm much more comfy with xD or even my old Smart Media.

Just a couple more thoughts from someone who has been going around the
block for a long time. Good luck! Let us know what you do.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media
I ask for your help in that I've only found ONE camera which comes
close to meeting these 4 simple (and, I'd bet, pretty univerally held)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)
- Excellent picture quality (I trust in Consumer Reports measurements)
- 7x - 10x optical zoom (equivalent to about 200 mm or more)
- Compact Flash media (I already have many CF cards & PCMCIA readers)
- Canon Powershot S1 IS (3.2 MP)
But I'd like a 5 megapixel or larger (for enlargements if needed).
Also this digital camera doesn't have a macro capability.
(Ad copy says it can focus at 4 inches so that seems like a built-in
macro non-macro to me ... what do you think)?
Is there any AA,CF,7x, camera with good photo quality on earth?
Susan Henderson

[j***@hotmail.com]

ya..
ihave a fuji s3000 .. AAs 4 of them.. 6 X optical zoom.. with xD...
and I have been over impressed with it.. low light capture. is great..

http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=1270635/search=s3000%2520fuji

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

The propietary batteries I buy on e-Bay for about seven bucks each

Wow. Can you get me a handful of those seven-dollar proprietary
batteries for my Nikon CoolPix 5700 and my JVC DVL-805U camcorder?

I paid upwards of 50 to 75 dollars for MY proprietary batteries.
And, they always go dead within a year or two; so I'm constantly buying
more, typically in an emergency situation where I drive all day in
Germany to find a battery to fit.

Amazed,
Susan Henderson

[Keith Jewell]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

The propietary batteries I buy on e-Bay for about seven bucks each

Wow. Can you get me a handful of those seven-dollar proprietary
batteries for my Nikon CoolPix 5700 and my JVC DVL-805U camcorder?
I paid upwards of 50 to 75 dollars for MY proprietary batteries.
And, they always go dead within a year or two; so I'm constantly buying
more, typically in an emergency situation where I drive all day in
Germany to find a battery to fit.

A quick eBay search for EN-EL1 turned up hundreds for around $9 with
shipping. They go bad on the shelf, though my experience has been it
takes about two years for that to happen, so you might just buy new
ones once a year. Lenmar's LIJ-408 for your JVC camcorder is a little
rarer, so runs around $30 from many suppliers.

That said, I've personally chosen to standardize on Canon products
which will take a BP-511. I've got two cameras and a video camera now,
so with a dual-bay charger I don't really need to carry much to run
several devices. The batteries have had good life (my nearly four year
old ones are getting about half their original life, newer ones better)
and are common, cheap, and high capacity. I'm done with AA batteries.
The flashlight gets a set of NiMHs that I swap out with the set on the
charger every month regardless of use.

-Keith

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

Post by Keith Jewell
A quick eBay search for EN-EL1 turned up hundreds for around $9 with
shipping. They go bad on the shelf, though my experience has been it
takes about two years for that to happen

Wow. You've embarrasssed me.
I'm paying five times what you pay for each of my proprietary battery
packs!

I'm also wary of EBay (well known as the largest fence on the planet).
In fact, I've never bought on the Internet, let alone at a fence
auction.
Although, wait a minute ... yes ... come to think of it, maybe I can
pawn my near-dead proprietary batteries as brand new to make money for
my new camera purchase. :)

I'd guess I am slowly realizing my unstated reluctance for hugely
expensive proprietary battery packs (as you can probably guess) is that
my use model clearly involves physical buying from a local store when &
where I need the battery. No store I've ever plucked a battery off the
shelf of sells batteries for the prices you mentioned. (It's my fault
for this use model, not yours.)

For example, at my local Fryes electronics store (where I buy almost
everything electronic), my Nikon 7.4 volt 650mah ENEL1 battery clearly
costs me $38 dollars out the door ( $35 plus $3 tax).
http://shop2.outpost.com/product/4001932?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG ).

Am I such an unusual thing in the world that I buy from a local store?

Maybe that's the real reason I'm so sour on the good-for-nothing
battery packs.

Realization hurts,
Susan H.

[o***@yahoo.com]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

Post by Keith Jewell
A quick eBay search for EN-EL1 turned up hundreds for around $9

In fact, I've never bought on the Internet, let alone at a fence
auction.
Although, wait a minute ... yes ... come to think of it, maybe I can
pawn my near-dead proprietary batteries as brand new to make money for
my new camera purchase. :)

Not every battery on Ebay is stolen or otherwise tainted goods.

A very large percentage of the items on Ebay - perhaps as much as to
80% of Ebay sales - is actually legitimate business. To help make it
safer for you do do business with Ebay, currently law enforcement is
spending millions to combat the growing use of Ebay for fraudulent
activities. If we don't, the theieves will outnumber the honest
citizens within just a few years.

Ebay management is actually frustrating these efforts - so - if you
have the opportunity to vote for legistation to regulate online
auctions - please consider what is really out there.

Please support high-tech crime enforcement legislation.

[John A. Stovall]

Post by o***@yahoo.com

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

Post by Keith Jewell
A quick eBay search for EN-EL1 turned up hundreds for around $9

In fact, I've never bought on the Internet, let alone at a fence
auction.
Although, wait a minute ... yes ... come to think of it, maybe I can
pawn my near-dead proprietary batteries as brand new to make money for
my new camera purchase. :)

Not every battery on Ebay is stolen or otherwise tainted goods.
A very large percentage of the items on Ebay - perhaps as much as to
80% of Ebay sales - is actually legitimate business. To help make it
safer for you do do business with Ebay, currently law enforcement is
spending millions to combat the growing use of Ebay for fraudulent
activities. If we don't, the theieves will outnumber the honest
citizens within just a few years.
Ebay management is actually frustrating these efforts - so - if you
have the opportunity to vote for legistation to regulate online
auctions - please consider what is really out there.
Please support high-tech crime enforcement legislation.

Just what we don't need more laws. Guess you love the Patriot act to?


*********************************************************

"I have been a witness, and these pictures are
my testimony. The events I have recorded should
not be forgotten and must not be repeated."

-James Nachtwey-
http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/

[Rod Speed]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

Post by Keith Jewell
A quick eBay search for EN-EL1 turned up hundreds for around $9 with
shipping. They go bad on the shelf, though my experience has been it
takes about two years for that to happen

Wow. You've embarrasssed me.
I'm paying five times what you pay for each of my proprietary battery
packs!
I'm also wary of EBay (well known as the largest fence on the planet).
In fact, I've never bought on the Internet, let alone at a fence
auction.
Although, wait a minute ... yes ... come to think of it, maybe I can
pawn my near-dead proprietary batteries as brand new to make money for
my new camera purchase. :)
I'd guess I am slowly realizing my unstated reluctance for hugely
expensive proprietary battery packs (as you can probably guess) is that
my use model clearly involves physical buying from a local store when &
where I need the battery. No store I've ever plucked a battery off the
shelf of sells batteries for the prices you mentioned. (It's my fault
for this use model, not yours.)
For example, at my local Fryes electronics store (where I buy almost
everything electronic), my Nikon 7.4 volt 650mah ENEL1 battery clearly
costs me $38 dollars out the door ( $35 plus $3 tax).
http://shop2.outpost.com/product/4001932?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG ).
Am I such an unusual thing in the world that I buy from a local store?

Nope, plenty havent noticed how the world has moved on on that.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Maybe that's the real reason I'm so sour on the good-for-nothing
battery packs.
Realization hurts,

[Keith Jewell]

Actually, what it comes down to is this: I used to work in computer
retail, and one of the things I remember was that the only things in
the store with insane profit margins were batteries and cables. We
would pay $1.25 for a cable that sold for $19.95 or $29.95. Pretty much
everything else ran on around a 15% margin. Since I think that's
insane, cables and batteries are one of the few things that I
consistantly eBay. Recent purchases include a 50' VGA cable (priced
locally at $149, $15 on eBay) and a cell phone battery (locally $39,
eBay $9). Many other things on eBay are either mediocre deals, or in
the case of things that have a large shipping cost, actually terrible
deals. You have to be picky. That's also a decent price for the Nikon
branded pack. It's just that the generic is 4X cheaper anyway.

-Keith

[Big Bill]

On 10 Jun 2005 09:44:40 -0700, "Susan (Graphic Artist)"

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

The propietary batteries I buy on e-Bay for about seven bucks each

Wow. Can you get me a handful of those seven-dollar proprietary
batteries for my Nikon CoolPix 5700 and my JVC DVL-805U camcorder?
I paid upwards of 50 to 75 dollars for MY proprietary batteries.
And, they always go dead within a year or two; so I'm constantly buying
more, typically in an emergency situation where I drive all day in
Germany to find a battery to fit.
Amazed,
Susan Henderson

Google is your friend!
Here's one for under $25 for the 5700:
http://www.ebatts.com/nikon_coolpix-5700_digital-camera_batteries_part_b-9570.aspx?GCID=C10847x023&src=Froogle&GTKW=Nikon%20CoolPix%205700%20Battery

For the 805U:
http://www.ebatts.com/jvc_gr-dvl805u_camcorder_batteries_part_b-9556.aspx

[Renato]

Fuji Finepix S7000.
Renato

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media
I ask for your help in that I've only found ONE camera which comes
close to meeting these 4 simple (and, I'd bet, pretty univerally held)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)
- Excellent picture quality (I trust in Consumer Reports measurements)
- 7x - 10x optical zoom (equivalent to about 200 mm or more)
- Compact Flash media (I already have many CF cards & PCMCIA readers)
- Canon Powershot S1 IS (3.2 MP)
But I'd like a 5 megapixel or larger (for enlargements if needed).
Also this digital camera doesn't have a macro capability.
(Ad copy says it can focus at 4 inches so that seems like a built-in
macro non-macro to me ... what do you think)?
Is there any AA,CF,7x, camera with good photo quality on earth?
Susan Henderson

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

Post by Renato
Fuji Finepix S7000.
Renato

Hmmmn ... what is microdrive?

Consumer Reports lists the $515 6MP Fuji FinePix S7000 (#39 on the July
2005 ratings chart) as:
- AA batteries = YES
- excellent photo quality = YES
- 7x optical zoom = NO (6x might be acceptable though)
- Compact Flash media = NO (xD & microdrive - whatever that is)

However, DP Reviews ( http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilms7000 )
lists the $550 6MP Fuji FinePix S7000 (January 2004) as:
· Slot 1: xD-Picture Card
· Slot 2: Compact Flash Type I or Type II (IBM Microdrive compatible)

So, I'm confused again. Did I do the wrong initial research?
I passed over the Fuji Finepx S7000 because it was xD and microdrive
(but not CF); but it appears microdrive might be the SAME as CF so why
didn't CR say so?

I'm confused,
Susan Henderson

[The Real Bev]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)

Post by Renato
Fuji Finepix S7000.
Renato

Hmmmn ... what is microdrive?

It's a tiny hard drive.
http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Camera_System/Storage_Card_01.htm

[j***@hotmail.com]

BTW,, u can get the fuji s3000 for 150 -200 .. BRAND NEW to
refurbished.. try matching that BANG for your buck

- AA batteries = YES
- excellent photo quality = YES
- 7x optical zoom = NO (6x might be acceptable though)
- Compact Flash media = NO .. xD..( which is superfast in
processing data).

[Cheesehead]

Pentax istD with battery grip
or
Pentax isdDS/DL (but they use SD)

Just add zoom/macro lens.

What I was looking for, when considering p&s digitals, was the hot
shoe.
All the other things seems superfluous -- they can be exchanged or
dealt with.
But the hot shoe provides a lighting interface. Few have it.

Colln

[Charles Gillen]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
- Canon Powershot S1 IS (3.2 MP)
But I'd like a 5 megapixel or larger (for enlargements if needed).

The newer Powershot S2 IS ($480 at B&H Photovideo) is 5 Mp, 12x zoom, but
uses SD card rather than CF. To my mind, the biggest digital bang for the
buck.

[Paul Rubin]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media

I still have an Olympus E-100RS that has all those.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
But I'd like a 5 megapixel or larger (for enlargements if needed).

Oh, you mean 5 simple goals.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Also this digital camera doesn't have a macro capability.

Make that six simple goals.

[tomm101]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media
I ask for your help in that I've only found ONE camera which comes
close to meeting these 4 simple (and, I'd bet, pretty univerally held)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)
- Excellent picture quality (I trust in Consumer Reports measurements)
- 7x - 10x optical zoom (equivalent to about 200 mm or more)
- Compact Flash media (I already have many CF cards & PCMCIA readers)
- Canon Powershot S1 IS (3.2 MP)
But I'd like a 5 megapixel or larger (for enlargements if needed).
Also this digital camera doesn't have a macro capability.
(Ad copy says it can focus at 4 inches so that seems like a built-in
macro non-macro to me ... what do you think)?
Is there any AA,CF,7x, camera with good photo quality on earth?
Susan Henderson

I understand your frustration but I have 2 comments.
The AA battery thing, yes you can find them everywhere BUT they are
generally alkalines or worse standard carbon cells, both having
terrible battery life with digital cameras . The propritaary batteries
on my Nikon 995 last 300-400 shots, the off brand ones I got at B&H
being better than the Nikon ones.
The second comment is on 7X zooms, there is a good chance to get aa
lens with lens distortion at either end. P&S cameras never have a wide
enough wide either (yes that is my opinion).
What would I do, a low end DSLR with a kit lens (Nikons are better
here) and a 70 to 200 (maybe 300) zoom. Better pics, less noise at high
ISO (even noticable at ISO 200 on most 8mp zooms), RAW or jpg options.
Hope you find something that makes you happy.

Tom

[Deep Reset]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media

Pentax *ist D with 28-200mm

Deep.

[Old Bugger]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media

Fuji s602z with a teleconverter.

[Dave Martindale]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media

To this you need to add

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
But I'd like a 5 megapixel or larger (for enlargements if needed).

which you mentioned later.

In fact, those aren't so simple to meet. It's difficult to make a 7 or
10X zoom lens that retains good image quality throughout its range.
That's one reason why the cameras with large zoom ranges tend to have
lower pixel counts (so the sharpness standards are somewhat less).

In the SLR world (both film and digital), the usual tradeoff is to buy a
really long range zoom (e.g. 28-200) and live with the lower image
quality, or buy several shorter-range zooms that together cover the
range, or even include a couple of fixed-focal-length lenses at
particularly critical focal lengths. But you don't have this choice if
the lens isn't removable.

Dave

[Celcius]

Why AA bateries?
Chargers for AA's come as 110 volt. If you travel to Europe or South
America, you need a 220 V charger.
However, AA chargers don't accomodate bi-voltage, at least it didn't when I
was asking about it a year ago...
In the case of dedicated single cell batteries as my Canon's, the charger
works on any current. All you need is a small inexpensive adaptor for the
pins.
Marcel

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media
I ask for your help in that I've only found ONE camera which comes
close to meeting these 4 simple (and, I'd bet, pretty univerally held)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)
- Excellent picture quality (I trust in Consumer Reports measurements)
- 7x - 10x optical zoom (equivalent to about 200 mm or more)
- Compact Flash media (I already have many CF cards & PCMCIA readers)
- Canon Powershot S1 IS (3.2 MP)
But I'd like a 5 megapixel or larger (for enlargements if needed).
Also this digital camera doesn't have a macro capability.
(Ad copy says it can focus at 4 inches so that seems like a built-in
macro non-macro to me ... what do you think)?
Is there any AA,CF,7x, camera with good photo quality on earth?
Susan Henderson

[k***@yahoo.com]

Post by Celcius
Why AA bateries?
Chargers for AA's come as 110 volt. If you travel to Europe or South
America, you need a 220 V charger.
However, AA chargers don't accomodate bi-voltage, at least it didn't when I
was asking about it a year ago...

Consumer reports lists plenty of 110v/240v chargers and 110/12v NiMH
battery chargers.

How could you have missed all these major manufacturers listed in their
2003 report. Most charge four AA batteries in an hour according to the
report.

Energizer CH1HRCP-4 110v/240v
Duracell CEF80NC 110v/240v
Kodak Max 1 Hour Charger 868-8723 110v/240v
Rayovac PS4 110v/12v
PowerEx MH-C401FS-DC 110v/12v

They reported in that article that rechargeable NiMH AA batteries are
for digital cameras "by far the most economical to use" with a cost per
photo of .015 cents (1.5 cents per 100 photos). The "one" drawback to
NiMH batteries in cameras they said was they lose 1% of their charge
each day on the shelf. I just keep mine in the charger all day until I
need them and I rotate out those on the shelf.

For those who insist batteries have nothing to do with digital camera
choices should read the following quote.

"Digital cameras run the gamut of size, shape, and price. But they
share one trait--a thirst for power that makes the choice of battery
critical."

[Paul Rubin]

Post by k***@yahoo.com
"Digital cameras run the gamut of size, shape, and price. But they
share one trait--a thirst for power that makes the choice of battery
critical."

CU is ignorant about digital cameras just like it's ignorant about
everything else with complex technology.

[k***@yahoo.com]

Post by Paul Rubin
CU is ignorant about digital cameras just like it's ignorant about
everything else with complex technology.

I would agree with you if I were a professional photographer who
understood the photo quality terms at the dpreview site such as white
balance, purple fringing, barrel distortion and pincushion distortion,
etc.

But most readers of consumer reports are not professional photographers
so they understand worse than average, average, and better than average
marks for photo quality.

More to the point, most people who buy these AA powered point and shoot
digital cameras we are discussing are not professional photographers
either. They too understand worse than average, average, and better
than average ratings for photo quality.

So for most people consumer reports is perfect as it speaks their
language on things they buy and it tests things they understand and
care about like AA batteries and little red dots for photo quality
scores.

[dj_nme]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media

The Pentax *ist-D with a Tamron 28-200mm zoom would meet this requirement.
It ships with 2 CR-V3 cells, but 4xAA can be used as well.

I am seriously considering upgrading to a Pentax *ist-DS (uses SD cards)
because I already have a Tamron Adaptall 28-200mm with Minolta MD/MC
mount (which I use on my XG-2) and have found a cheap supply for an
Adaptall K-mount.
It also looks atractive because M42 lenses can used (with a K adapter)
in manual or apeture priority mode.

[Shawn Hearn]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media
I ask for your help in that I've only found ONE camera which comes
close to meeting these 4 simple (and, I'd bet, pretty univerally held)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)
- Excellent picture quality (I trust in Consumer Reports measurements)
- 7x - 10x optical zoom (equivalent to about 200 mm or more)
- Compact Flash media (I already have many CF cards & PCMCIA readers)
- Canon Powershot S1 IS (3.2 MP)
But I'd like a 5 megapixel or larger (for enlargements if needed).
Also this digital camera doesn't have a macro capability.
(Ad copy says it can focus at 4 inches so that seems like a built-in
macro non-macro to me ... what do you think)?
Is there any AA,CF,7x, camera with good photo quality on earth?

Why do you insist on AAA batteries? I am an avid photographer and AAA
batteries, even the best rechargeable batteries suck for digital
photography. They are too bulky and need too frequent recharges. If you
drop that requirement, you might find some of the Panasonic cameras to
your liking, although I am not sure which digital memory cards they use.

[Bob Ward]

Post by Shawn Hearn

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media
I ask for your help in that I've only found ONE camera which comes
close to meeting these 4 simple (and, I'd bet, pretty univerally held)
- AA batteries (never again will I buy electronics with battery packs!)
- Excellent picture quality (I trust in Consumer Reports measurements)
- 7x - 10x optical zoom (equivalent to about 200 mm or more)
- Compact Flash media (I already have many CF cards & PCMCIA readers)
- Canon Powershot S1 IS (3.2 MP)
But I'd like a 5 megapixel or larger (for enlargements if needed).
Also this digital camera doesn't have a macro capability.
(Ad copy says it can focus at 4 inches so that seems like a built-in
macro non-macro to me ... what do you think)?
Is there any AA,CF,7x, camera with good photo quality on earth?

Why do you insist on AAA batteries? I am an avid photographer and AAA
batteries, even the best rechargeable batteries suck for digital
photography. They are too bulky and need too frequent recharges. If you
drop that requirement, you might find some of the Panasonic cameras to
your liking, although I am not sure which digital memory cards they use.

I use an Olympus 8080WZ, shooting 200-300 pictures per day, and I've
never run out of power rotating two of the special-purpose batteries.

[k***@yahoo.com]

Post by Bob Ward

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries

I use an Olympus 8080WZ, shooting 200-300 pictures per day, and I've
never run out of power rotating two of the special-purpose batteries.

You get 150 shots per battery! Amazing!
I get about 50 on my camera (almost all if not all with flash indoors
as I work for a floral arrangement shop).

I tried to look up on dpreview how many shots per battery on the
Olympus 8080 a test user gets but I can not find this information (even
in the battery life section). Does dpreview actually test the shots per
battery?

Going to consumer reports I paid the subscription fee just now and
found accidentally a good article on battery chargers while I was
looking up how many shots the Olympus 8080 gets typically. They got 120
high resolution shots with a brand new fully charged battery with the
LCD display turned off and the flash used for only 60 of those 120
shots. This jives with you although you must be using a very fresh set
of batteries because I don't get nearly that from my camera.

Did I miss the spot on dpreview where they do a nice tabular summary of
the camera test results including the number of shots per battery?

[Ken Weitzel]

Post by k***@yahoo.com

Post by Bob Ward

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries

I use an Olympus 8080WZ, shooting 200-300 pictures per day, and I've
never run out of power rotating two of the special-purpose batteries.

You get 150 shots per battery! Amazing!
I get about 50 on my camera (almost all if not all with flash indoors
as I work for a floral arrangement shop).
I tried to look up on dpreview how many shots per battery on the
Olympus 8080 a test user gets but I can not find this information (even
in the battery life section). Does dpreview actually test the shots per
battery?
Going to consumer reports I paid the subscription fee just now and
found accidentally a good article on battery chargers while I was
looking up how many shots the Olympus 8080 gets typically. They got 120
high resolution shots with a brand new fully charged battery with the
LCD display turned off and the flash used for only 60 of those 120
shots. This jives with you although you must be using a very fresh set
of batteries because I don't get nearly that from my camera.
Did I miss the spot on dpreview where they do a nice tabular summary of
the camera test results including the number of shots per battery?

Hi...

I don't own an 8080; maybe one day if I'm lucky :)

I do have many other Oly's though; and each of them isn't
hardly warmed up and ready to go at 50 shots...

Is it possible something's wrong there? Old batts on their
last legs? Small capacity older cells? Not really properly
charging?

Just my 2 cents, but I suspect looking into.

Take care.

Ken

[Bob Ward]

Post by k***@yahoo.com

Post by Bob Ward

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries

I use an Olympus 8080WZ, shooting 200-300 pictures per day, and I've
never run out of power rotating two of the special-purpose batteries.

You get 150 shots per battery! Amazing!
I get about 50 on my camera (almost all if not all with flash indoors
as I work for a floral arrangement shop).
I tried to look up on dpreview how many shots per battery on the
Olympus 8080 a test user gets but I can not find this information (even
in the battery life section). Does dpreview actually test the shots per
battery?
Going to consumer reports I paid the subscription fee just now and
found accidentally a good article on battery chargers while I was
looking up how many shots the Olympus 8080 gets typically. They got 120
high resolution shots with a brand new fully charged battery with the
LCD display turned off and the flash used for only 60 of those 120
shots. This jives with you although you must be using a very fresh set
of batteries because I don't get nearly that from my camera.
Did I miss the spot on dpreview where they do a nice tabular summary of
the camera test results including the number of shots per battery?

I use flash on every shot (I shoot virtual tours for Realtors) with
the LCD on 99% of the time. I shoot at 640x480, because anything more
than that is wasted online. I change out the battery every night, and
put the used one on the charger overnight - I just carry the second
battery in case something goes wrong. Once I was having a problem
where it appeared that both batteries had failed at the same time -
turned out to be a bad CF card - I only figured that out by removing
the aftermarket card in preparation to return the camera to the
service center, and found that the system was working after all.

All-in-all, I'm very happy with the Olympus. I especially like the
remote shutter release - not having to trip the shutter at the camera
means that the camera doesn't move, which makes stitching the
panoramas much easier.

[Shawn Hearn]

Post by k***@yahoo.com

Post by Bob Ward

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries

I use an Olympus 8080WZ, shooting 200-300 pictures per day, and I've
never run out of power rotating two of the special-purpose batteries.

You get 150 shots per battery! Amazing!
I get about 50 on my camera (almost all if not all with flash indoors
as I work for a floral arrangement shop).

My two-year-old Canon Digital Rebel routinely gets around 200-250 images
off a single battery charge (with most of the images being without
flash). I travel a lot and I love to shoot anything and everything. When
I am on vacation, I typically bring a laptop with me and I can shoot
300-400 photos off the two batteries I carry with me, plus each battery
only takes about an hour to fully recharge, and the batteries do not
discharge when they are not in use.

Post by k***@yahoo.com
I tried to look up on dpreview how many shots per battery on the
Olympus 8080 a test user gets but I can not find this information (even
in the battery life section). Does dpreview actually test the shots per
battery?

I don't know. Perhaps you can find that info on the Olympus web site. I
also know that on my Canon Digital Rebel, I also get more shots per
battery than the documentation claims. Those numbers are all estimates
anyway. Those who shoot a lot of photos using a camera's internal flash
are going to get toward the lower end of the estimate. Those who rarely
if ever use their digital camera's internal flash will get more than the
rated number of images per charge.

[k***@yahoo.com]

Post by Shawn Hearn
Why do you insist on AAA batteries? I am an avid photographer and AAA
batteries, even the best rechargeable batteries suck for digital
photography. They are too bulky and need too frequent recharges.

I don't think ANYONE here is suggesting AAA batteries.
Maybe I'm wrong but AAA batteries are about half the power of AA at the
same cost as AA.

I also don't think any argument is for a specific size per se, just
that it be single cell and standard size and readily available at no
worse than two or three dollars per battery. That could be D for
example but it most likely is AA. (Or is there an A size battery on the
market?)

The clear reason for AA is summed up nicely by my new subscription to
consumer reports shown below as economy & convenience & that one last
shot at the sunset of the day when your proprietary battery is deader
than a doornail yet your robust handful of AAs is still going strong.

"In our tests, neither type of battery had a clear performance
advantage. The best-performing cameras offer upward of 300 shots on a
charge, while the worst manage only about 50. We think it's more
convenient to own a camera that accepts AA batteries. You can buy
economical, rechargeable cells (plus a charger) and drop in a set of
disposable lithium or alkaline batteries if the rechargeables run down
in the middle of the day's shooting."

[Bob Ward]

Post by k***@yahoo.com

Post by Shawn Hearn
Why do you insist on AAA batteries? I am an avid photographer and AAA
batteries, even the best rechargeable batteries suck for digital
photography. They are too bulky and need too frequent recharges.

I don't think ANYONE here is suggesting AAA batteries.
Maybe I'm wrong but AAA batteries are about half the power of AA at the
same cost as AA.
I also don't think any argument is for a specific size per se, just
that it be single cell and standard size and readily available at no
worse than two or three dollars per battery. That could be D for
example but it most likely is AA. (Or is there an A size battery on the
market?)
The clear reason for AA is summed up nicely by my new subscription to
consumer reports shown below as economy & convenience & that one last
shot at the sunset of the day when your proprietary battery is deader
than a doornail yet your robust handful of AAs is still going strong.
"In our tests, neither type of battery had a clear performance
advantage. The best-performing cameras offer upward of 300 shots on a
charge, while the worst manage only about 50. We think it's more
convenient to own a camera that accepts AA batteries. You can buy
economical, rechargeable cells (plus a charger) and drop in a set of
disposable lithium or alkaline batteries if the rechargeables run down
in the middle of the day's shooting."

... or you can carry TWO batteries so you still have lots of power
left at the end of the day.

Since all my work is done with the camera on a tripod, it's a pain to
have to take it off to change batteries, so I'm all in favor of doing
that as infrequently as possible. I've thought of getting a larger
battery pack from Porter's, so I could mount it on the tripod and even
power a larger flash all day.

[b***@yahoo.com]

Post by Bob Ward
... or you can carry TWO batteries so you still have lots of power
left at the end of the day.

You're forgetting about the charger's just-in-time inventory problem.
The problem isn't two batteries. The problem is two or more chargers.

Sure, for the pro with five chargers its no big deal. But for the
average camera user, one proprietary charger is all they have and that
means only two batteries practically. Sure you can buy more than two at
fourty dollars a pop but two batteries and one charger is a practical
common setup. That means one proprietary battery on the charger and one
on the camera for a practical limit of two on the road and nothing in
the charger meaning any late-afternoon shots are going to have to be
powered by a hand crank on the side of the camera.

Given that an aa battery charger with batteries is less than 25 dollars
in many cases and given that the consumer can use those aa batteries in
MANY applications, it would make sense for the consumer to buy more
than one aa charger while it would NOT make sense for the typical
consumer to buy two or three proprietary canon or nikon or olympus
battery chargers.

In my house where I gave up on proprietary camera batteries two years
ago we have three chargers and 12 aa batteries on the grill with
another dozen batteries on the shelf. The minute a battery comes out of
the charger for the kids toys or the alarm clock or a closet light or a
digital camera, in goes the spare battery so that we always have a
dozen batteries cooking. If I'm forced to improvise at an impromptu
nude shootout of the girls volleyball team, I can grab the entire dozen
for 6 times my camera's limit of 200 shots => 1200 shots of the girls
without fear of deflating my camera's shutter.

The point is that the limiting factor in proprietary batteries extends
beyond the high cost, the lack of emergency replacements, and the lack
of a spare, to the lack of an ability to recharge them due to the lack
of multiple chargers in most non professional homes.

[Shawn Hearn]

Post by b***@yahoo.com

Post by Bob Ward
... or you can carry TWO batteries so you still have lots of power
left at the end of the day.

You're forgetting about the charger's just-in-time inventory problem.
The problem isn't two batteries. The problem is two or more chargers.
Sure, for the pro with five chargers its no big deal. But for the
average camera user, one proprietary charger is all they have and that
means only two batteries practically. Sure you can buy more than two at
fourty dollars a pop but two batteries and one charger is a practical
common setup. That means one proprietary battery on the charger and one
on the camera for a practical limit of two on the road and nothing in
the charger meaning any late-afternoon shots are going to have to be
powered by a hand crank on the side of the camera.

If you're a pro, you might need to charge more than one battery at a
time. I go through periods where I shoot several hundred images over a
one day period. I have never had a need for more than one battery
charger for my Digital Rebel. The battery charges so fast, its just not
a problem. And I don't have the problem of picking up my camera after
its been idle for a month or two and finding the battery has discharged.
I had that problem all the time with my digital cameras that used AA
batteries, plus the convenience of buying AA batteries on the fly is
highly overrated given that most digital cameras will deplete a set of
non-rechargeable batteries in an eye blink, so that option really gets
very expensive very fast.

[Bob Ward]

Post by b***@yahoo.com

Post by Bob Ward
... or you can carry TWO batteries so you still have lots of power
left at the end of the day.

You're forgetting about the charger's just-in-time inventory problem.
The problem isn't two batteries. The problem is two or more chargers.
Sure, for the pro with five chargers its no big deal. But for the
average camera user, one proprietary charger is all they have and that
means only two batteries practically. Sure you can buy more than two at
fourty dollars a pop but two batteries and one charger is a practical
common setup. That means one proprietary battery on the charger and one
on the camera for a practical limit of two on the road and nothing in
the charger meaning any late-afternoon shots are going to have to be
powered by a hand crank on the side of the camera.

That may well be true with AA cells, but I have no such problem with
my Olympus batteries - when it takes five or six hours of shooting to
drain a battery, and an hour or less to fully charge it, there is no
such problem.

If you are travelling by car, it's a simple matter to pop the drained
battery back on the charger shortly after making the switch - it will
be ready for reuse long before it is needed. If you carry more than
two batteries, it's still no problem.

Post by b***@yahoo.com
Given that an aa battery charger with batteries is less than 25 dollars
in many cases and given that the consumer can use those aa batteries in
MANY applications, it would make sense for the consumer to buy more
than one aa charger while it would NOT make sense for the typical
consumer to buy two or three proprietary canon or nikon or olympus
battery chargers.

Whty does it make more sense to buy a dozen or so AA cells plus an
extra charger or three to do the same job as one extra battery and the
charger that was included with the camera itself?

Post by b***@yahoo.com
In my house where I gave up on proprietary camera batteries two years
ago we have three chargers and 12 aa batteries on the grill with
another dozen batteries on the shelf. The minute a battery comes out of
the charger for the kids toys or the alarm clock or a closet light or a
digital camera, in goes the spare battery so that we always have a
dozen batteries cooking. If I'm forced to improvise at an impromptu
nude shootout of the girls volleyball team, I can grab the entire dozen
for 6 times my camera's limit of 200 shots => 1200 shots of the girls
without fear of deflating my camera's shutter.
The point is that the limiting factor in proprietary batteries extends
beyond the high cost, the lack of emergency replacements, and the lack
of a spare, to the lack of an ability to recharge them due to the lack
of multiple chargers in most non professional homes.

Again - multiple chargers are not an issue - the batteries recharge
faster than they run down.

[b***@yahoo.com]

Post by Bob Ward
That may well be true with AA cells, but I have no such problem with
my Olympus batteries - when it takes five or six hours of shooting to
drain a battery, and an hour or less to fully charge it

My situation is different so we make different decisions.

In my case, my two-year old Nikon CP5000 gets about 15 flash shots on
the original battery. Even on the new battery (six months old), Nikon
gets only about 25 or 30 flash shots before the coolpix begins the
annoying cycle of shutting off and turning itself on repeatedly so that
I can barely get another shot in until I recharge the battery. Since my
experience is so very sad with Nikon cameras, I have no inclination to
purchase a third nearly useless battery for this camera. I generally
don't take the Nikon out on any critical day of shooting (like a day in
the park with the kids). The Nikon is only good for the one or two
shots at home where a charger is readily at hand so it can replenish
the otherwise soon-to-be-dead battery before any critical shots are
needed.

As an aside ...

It would be nice to know if I'm not the only one with a Nikon CP 5000
that gets only 25 shots to the battery before the camera begins to
flake out on me. I've lost so many photo opportunities with this Nikon
that I swore off all Nikons and proprietary batteries forever!

Post by Bob Ward
Why does it make more sense to buy a dozen or so AA cells plus an
extra charger or three to do the same job as one extra battery and the
charger that was included with the camera itself?

Economy. Performance. Availability.
In my house, there is NO advantage whatsoever to the Nikon proprietary
setup!

What good is a battery that is always dead with a backup battery which
will die within a few dozen flash shots? At least with a handful of AA
batteries, I could snap more than a few dozen photos of the kids.

Post by Bob Ward
Again - multiple chargers are not an issue - the batteries recharge
faster than they run down.

Not in my experience. I'd like to know if I'm the only Nikon CP 5000
owner who gets only 25 shots out of a six-month old battery? Or am I
doing something strangely wrong with my Nikon?

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
AA batteries
Good photo quality
7x to 10x optical zoom
CF media

Thank you for all your help!
Here is a (hopefully accurate) summary for the next photographer with
the same four simple requirements

I (we) learned a lot.

Specifically, there is no camera buying-guide search page that has all
four requirements; but the combination of these four will work.
A. dcresource.com/reviews/cameraList.php (zoom, battery, media - but
not quality)
B. Consumer Reports (compares quality, zoom, & battery - but not media)
C. www.dpreview.com (compares zoom & media - but not quality & battery)
D. rec.photo.digital (experts fill in otherwise incomplete data)

Now, for the list of digital cameras meeting the four simple
requirements:
- Quality photographs
- Standard single-cell batteries
- ~7x stabilized zoom (IS added courtesy of rec.photo.digital)
- Standard rugged compact flash memory media

Had I originally known about dcresource.com, I would have immediately
looked at the cameras it reported.
1) Casio QV-2900UX
2) Konica Minolta DiMAGE 5
3) Konica Minolta DiMAGE 7
4) Konica Minolta DiMAGE 7Hi
5) Konica Minolta DiMAGE 7i

Sadly, while dcresource at least has a search engine that was the
closest for our needs (easily compare zoom, battery, & media - but not
quality), it failed to report very many cameras that meet those needs.
Likewise, consumer reports fails to report the flash card media on its
digital camera ratings page; and dpreview.com fails to search for
standard batteries on its buying comparison page.

For example, using only Consumer Reports' buying guide (ratings page),
only one camera met the four simple goals (quality, AA, 7x zoom, CF).
6) Canon PowerShot S1 IS

I thought that was the only camera on earth which met these four simple
requirements; but, thankfully, when I asked rec.photo.digital for help,
the list of cameras which met these four simple requirements expanded
greatly.

In summary for the next consumer, rec.photo.digital experts also found
the following cameras, in the following order, which should fit these
four simple requirements for the next digital photographer with the
same common need.
7) Konica Minolta DiMAGE A2 with optional grip (thanks to John Bean)
8) Nikon CoolPix 5700 with optional equipment (thanks to slushfund)
9) Canon 20D w/ optional battery grip and a optional zoom (Joseph
Meehan)
10) Fuji S7000 w/ slightly less zoom (thanks to ASAAR)
11) Olympus E-100RS (thanks to Paul Rubin)
12) Pentax *ist D with optional Tamron 28-200mm (Deep Reset & dj_nme)
It ships with 2 CR-V3 cells, but 4xAA can be used as well.
13) Fuji s602z with an optional teleconverter (thanks to Old Bugger)
14) Nikon CoolPix 800 (with much less zoom, thanks to The Real Bev)
15) Canon Powershot A60 w/ optional zoom lens (thanks to Don Klipstein)
16) Canon Powershot A75 w/ optional zoom lens (thanks to Don Klipstein)
17) Canon Powershot A85 w/ optional zoom lens (thanks to Don Klipstein)
18) Canon Powershot A95 w/ optional zoom lens (thanks to Don Klipstein)

In hindsight, what made this effort to choose a consumer oriented
digital camera hard wasn't the AA battery requirement so much as the
desire to standardize on my existing compact flash cards. Were I to
drop that media requirement and use the less sturdy & more costly SD
media, I'm told our camera choices would have been greater. Next, if we
dropped the decent-zoom requirement, our choices would have
correspondingly expanded.

To be precise, even in generous hindsight, I'd personally never have
dropped my requirement for excellent quality photo results (at any
pixel count). Since I abhor proprietary batteries (been burned far too
many times), I also would never relax on the standard-size single-cell
battery requirement for my camera (which I just started shooting with -
thanks to all of you!).

Thank you all for your advice & opinions on digital camera choices,
Susan Henderson

[John A. Stovall]

On 18 Jun 2005 12:07:47 -0700, "Susan (Graphic Artist)"
<***@yahoo.com> wrote:

snipped

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
In summary for the next consumer, rec.photo.digital experts also found
the following cameras, in the following order, which should fit these
four simple requirements for the next digital photographer with the
same common need.
7) Konica Minolta DiMAGE A2 with optional grip (thanks to John Bean)
8) Nikon CoolPix 5700 with optional equipment (thanks to slushfund)
9) Canon 20D w/ optional battery grip and a optional zoom (Joseph
Meehan)
10) Fuji S7000 w/ slightly less zoom (thanks to ASAAR)
11) Olympus E-100RS (thanks to Paul Rubin)
12) Pentax *ist D with optional Tamron 28-200mm (Deep Reset & dj_nme)
It ships with 2 CR-V3 cells, but 4xAA can be used as well.
13) Fuji s602z with an optional teleconverter (thanks to Old Bugger)
14) Nikon CoolPix 800 (with much less zoom, thanks to The Real Bev)
15) Canon Powershot A60 w/ optional zoom lens (thanks to Don Klipstein)
16) Canon Powershot A75 w/ optional zoom lens (thanks to Don Klipstein)
17) Canon Powershot A85 w/ optional zoom lens (thanks to Don Klipstein)
18) Canon Powershot A95 w/ optional zoom lens (thanks to Don Klipstein)

The above list just show what madness irrational standards can
produce. Any one who would lump a 20D in with all those P/S cameras
doesn't have a clue as to what their "Photographic" requirements are.

It's not about batteries and media cards. It's about the quality of
the image.


*********************************************************

"I have been a witness, and these pictures are
my testimony. The events I have recorded should
not be forgotten and must not be repeated."

-James Nachtwey-
http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/

[Paul Rubin]

Post by John A. Stovall
It's not about batteries and media cards. It's about the quality of
the image.

Nah, it's about practical factors too. Otherwise why are you shooting
digital instead of 8x10 sheet film? Batteries and media cards are
legitimate practical factors.

[John A. Stovall]

On 18 Jun 2005 12:58:56 -0700, Paul Rubin

Post by Paul Rubin

Post by John A. Stovall
It's not about batteries and media cards. It's about the quality of
the image.

Nah, it's about practical factors too. Otherwise why are you shooting
digital instead of 8x10 sheet film? Batteries and media cards are
legitimate practical factors.

Not to the level we saw in this thread. I went first with the
manufacture and their system and settled on Canon, then went with a
20D but have bought only EF and mainly L glass looking at a 1DsMkII in
the fall. As for media I like to the best quality of the type the
camera used and that means to me at present Sandisk Extreme III. The
battery was a no-op. I just bought enough BP-511's with the Grip and
chargers to have two sets of backup and any time.

Besides anyone who would expect Consumer Reports to known anything
about quality systems is not looking for much.


*********************************************************

"I have been a witness, and these pictures are
my testimony. The events I have recorded should
not be forgotten and must not be repeated."

-James Nachtwey-
http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

Post by John A. Stovall

Post by Paul Rubin
it's about practical factors too. Otherwise why are you shooting
digital instead of 8x10 sheet film? Batteries and media cards are
legitimate practical factors.

Not to the level we saw in this thread. I went first with the
manufacture and their system and settled on Canon, then went with a
20D but have bought only EF and mainly L glass looking at a 1DsMkII in
the fall. As for media I like to the best quality of the type the
camera used and that means to me at present Sandisk Extreme III. The
battery was a no-op. I just bought enough BP-511's with the Grip and
chargers to have two sets of backup and any time.
Besides anyone who would expect Consumer Reports to known anything
about quality systems is not looking for much.

Is there a better way for a novice to determine photo quality for a
dozen prospective cameras?

Here's what my situation is (I'm sure it's pretty common):
- I can't possibly test all dozen camera choices myself
- I wouldn't even know what to look for (not being a pro)
- So I have to trust someone (but whom)?
- I can't trust the manufacturer
- I can't understand what dpreview says about photo quality
- I wish dpreview would just give a single go/no-go value
- Consumer Reports DOES give a single value for photo quality

Where else than CR can a basic run-of-the-mill camera consumer (a
single mother of three kids to be exact) get reliably accurate yet
simple photo-quality comparisons for a dozen or so prospective cameras?

Susan Henderson

[SoCalMike]

Post by Paul Rubin

Post by John A. Stovall
It's not about batteries and media cards. It's about the quality of
the image.

Nah, it's about practical factors too. Otherwise why are you shooting
digital instead of 8x10 sheet film? Batteries and media cards are
legitimate practical factors.

AA batts and SD cards seem the best way to go, for me.

eventually multi-gig SD cards will be available, and youll be able to
use one small camera to make home movies as well as snap pictures. put
the SD in your card reader, load into an editing proggie, then burn to DVD.

ive already dont that with an HP 2.1G camera, but the quality is
lacking. its barely passable for occasional home use, but im sure
theres something better out there.

im sure someone will chime in with a much better camera that can do
movies as well as still photography, while using SD cards (multiple
cards in one camera, maybe?) and AA batteries.

anyone?

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

Post by John A. Stovall
The above list just show what madness irrational standards can
produce. Any one who would lump a 20D in with all those P/S cameras
doesn't have a clue as to what their "Photographic" requirements are.
It's not about batteries and media cards. It's about the quality of
the image.

We were specifically summarizing the cameras that met these four
requirements:
- good pictures (as reported by testing organizations)
- standard-sized single-cell batteries
- decent zoom of approximately 7x or more (roughly 280mm or more equiv)
- standard compact flash media

As seemingly universal as these 4 simple requirements were, only one
camera in the world initially met these; and fewer than a handful made
the final cut (sans optional accessories).

Of course, we could have added a hundred additional requirements (cost,
form factor, manual controls, battery life, flash hot shoe, etc.) but
that wasn't the initial intent of the question.

Does the 20D not meet these 4 simple requirements?

[Paul Rubin]

"Susan (Graphic Artist)" <***@yahoo.com> writes:
.> In hindsight, what made this effort to choose a consumer oriented

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
digital camera hard wasn't the AA battery requirement so much as the
desire to standardize on my existing compact flash cards. Were I to
drop that media requirement and use the less sturdy & more costly SD
media, I'm told our camera choices would have been greater.

I think you have to accept at this point that CF cards are falling out
of favor in consumer cameras. I'm not delighted but I've decided I
can live with it, and my next camera will probably be SD. Cost per MB
for SD cards is about the same as CF; they're not more expensive. They're
also not less sturdy unless you're flexing them back and forth outside
the camera or something. In fact one reason camera manufacturers are
switching to them is that CF cameras tend to get the contact pins bent
up eventually, so SD is in practice less damage-prone than CF.

When I bought my first digicam (Coolpix 900S) I bought a 45 MB CF card
with it for $200 or so. Sometime later I bought a 128MB card that
I didn't need, just because it was such an astonishing bargain at
around $110. These days a 256MB card (CF or SD) is just $20 or so
if you shop carefully. So I don't mind buying one. I've found that
128MB is way more capacity than I need for the S100, and I don't feel
the need for gigabytes of memory cards for a P/S camera. However,
if your shooting habits require multiple GB, it may be more of an issue
for you.

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Next, if we dropped the decent-zoom requirement, our choices would
have correspondingly expanded.

As I remember you wanted a very long zoom range. That's not synonymous
with "decent"; there are advantages and disadvantages to long zooms
and not everyone wants one.

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

Post by Paul Rubin
When I bought my first digicam (Coolpix 900S) I bought a 45 MB CF card
with it for $200 or so. Sometime later I bought a 128MB card that
I didn't need, just because it was such an astonishing bargain at
around $110. These days a 256MB card (CF or SD) is just $20 or so
if you shop carefully. So I don't mind buying one. I've found that
128MB is way more capacity than I need for the S100, and I don't feel
the need for gigabytes of memory cards for a P/S camera. However,
if your shooting habits require multiple GB, it may be more of an issue
for you.

I went through the same media exercise that I presume everyone else
did.

First, I couldn't live with the puny 8 Mbyte or 32 Mbyte CF card that
came with each of my p&s digital cameras; then my immediate 128 Mbyte &
subsequent 256 Mbyte upgrades for more than a hundred bucks each at
CostCo when they first came out; then a few more 512 Mbyte CF cards;
then the set of 1 Gbyte compact flash cards for a few hundred dollars;
and now the multi-GB CF cards for about the price that I paid for the
initial 512 Mbyte cards when they first came out.

With the kids being the most adorable things on earth, I shoot a dozen
video clips a day and often a few hundred shots a day (depending on the
day of course). I often fill up the 1GB compact flash cards within a
half day (mostly with video clips). Certainly a 1 Gbyte card wouldn't
last a heavy weekend. So, I couldn't live with the 512 MB and smaller
compact flash cards (I use them only for emergencies - which is to say
I use them pretty often :)

I don't wish to go through that same inventory building curve for SD
media when SD gains me nothing over CF - especially considering I only
have portable computers which all have a passive CF card adaptor in the
PCMCIA slot so I never have to use wires or advertisement-filled
manufacturer software just to transfer my data over to my hard drive
and onto the DVD disc a few times a month as I fill up 450 Gbytes of
photo memories for my children and their ancestors.

In summary, for some people, buying ONE flash card is enough; but not
for me.
My main resistance to other media is the inventory I have currently in
CF media and the fact that that other media gains me nothing whatsoever
as long as I can find a decent camera that uses the CF media.

[Susan (Graphic Artist)]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
I don't wish to go through that same inventory building curve for SD
media when SD gains me nothing over CF - especially considering I only
have portable computers which all have a passive CF card adaptor in the
PCMCIA slot so I never have to use wires or advertisement-filled
manufacturer software just to transfer my data over to my hard drive
and onto the DVD disc a few times a month as I fill up 450 Gbytes of
photo memories for my children and their ancestors.

Ouch. Before I get slammed, I meant 4.5 Gbytes. :)

Even a single-layer 4.7GB DVD can't fit more than a few days of a good
hard set of vacation photos of the kids.

When I go on vacation, I MUST bring my rather heavy portable computer
with me just to transfer the data so I can re-use the tiny 1GB compact
flash cards.

I wish there was a 10GB or so storage media that I could pop the CF
card into so clean it up for the next day's shooting. 10 GB (or so)
should cover a vacation at Disney, for example.

Does that contraption exist?
Or must I continue to stock 1 and 2 GB CF cards in my purse?

[Shawn Hearn]

Post by Bob Ward

Post by k***@yahoo.com

Post by Shawn Hearn
Why do you insist on AAA batteries? I am an avid photographer and AAA
batteries, even the best rechargeable batteries suck for digital
photography. They are too bulky and need too frequent recharges.

I don't think ANYONE here is suggesting AAA batteries.
Maybe I'm wrong but AAA batteries are about half the power of AA at the
same cost as AA.
I also don't think any argument is for a specific size per se, just
that it be single cell and standard size and readily available at no
worse than two or three dollars per battery. That could be D for
example but it most likely is AA. (Or is there an A size battery on the
market?)
The clear reason for AA is summed up nicely by my new subscription to
consumer reports shown below as economy & convenience & that one last
shot at the sunset of the day when your proprietary battery is deader
than a doornail yet your robust handful of AAs is still going strong.
"In our tests, neither type of battery had a clear performance
advantage. The best-performing cameras offer upward of 300 shots on a
charge, while the worst manage only about 50. We think it's more
convenient to own a camera that accepts AA batteries. You can buy
economical, rechargeable cells (plus a charger) and drop in a set of
disposable lithium or alkaline batteries if the rechargeables run down
in the middle of the day's shooting."

... or you can carry TWO batteries so you still have lots of power
left at the end of the day.
Since all my work is done with the camera on a tripod, it's a pain to
have to take it off to change batteries, so I'm all in favor of doing
that as infrequently as possible. I've thought of getting a larger
battery pack from Porter's, so I could mount it on the tripod and even
power a larger flash all day.

AA batteries are okay for digital photography if the camera does not sit
unused for long periods of time. The trouble is, the AA batteries I have
used all seem to discharge fairly quickly, even when they are not used.
In contrast, I can pick up my Canon Digital Rebel with its proprietary
battery after its sat unused for a month or two and still get a hundred
or two hundred shots out of the battery before it has to be recharged.
When I used a camera that took AA batteries, I always had to plan a head
and make sure I had a set of charged batteries a few hour before I
wanted to use it, plus the duplicate set of batteries took up a lot more
space in my camera bag. I have gone for two or three days and shooting
hundreds of photos off a pair of my Canon's LION batteries and I have
never been in a situation where I was without battery power, even though
it uses a proprietary battery technlogy.

[K Browne]

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- 7x to 10x optical zoom
- CF media

ready have many CF cards & PCMCIA readers)

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
- Canon Powershot S1 IS (3.2 MP)

How about the Canon PowerShot S2-IS?

[b***@yahoo.com]

Post by K Browne

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- decent optical zoom
- standard compact flash media

How about the Canon PowerShot S2-IS?

That was already discussed in prior replies.
The Canon PowerShot S2-IS wins a lot of tests but fails this one quick.

[Don Klipstein]

Post by b***@yahoo.com

Post by K Browne

Post by Susan (Graphic Artist)
Can there not be a camera on earth that meets these 4 simple goals?
- AA batteries
- Good photo quality
- decent optical zoom
- standard compact flash media

How about the Canon PowerShot S2-IS?

That was already discussed in prior replies.
The Canon PowerShot S2-IS wins a lot of tests but fails this one quick.

Canon Powershot A60 to A95 series.

In my experience with Powershot A70:

Takes four AA cells, your choice of alkaline or NiMH

Very decent photo quality

Convenient 3x optical zoom

Takes regular Compact Flash media, any size 16M to 512M

A60 - 2 megapixels, A70 & A75 have 3.2 megapixels, higher models in this
series have 4-5 megapixels

- Don Klipstein (***@misty.com)

[c***@aol.com]

Have a look at the Argus C3.

Excelsior, you fatheads!
-Chris-