Install Fedora Button for LiveCD

[Kamil Paral]

I was quite depressed how hard it can be for a layman to find a way to install Fedora from LiveCD environment. If you don't recognize the icon in Gnome Shell Overview mode, it can give you quite some work to find it. Since OSS philosophy is "if you don't like it, fix it", I did. In the last two days I have created a Gnome Shell extension that puts a button on the top bar that says "Install to Hard Drive". It has an icon attached, so it's very visible. The graphics and the text is taken from anaconda's .desktop file, so localization should work OOTB. When you click the button, the installation process starts the same way as if you had run it from the overview.

You can see it here:
Loading Image...

What do you think? Better than default?

I personally think it's definitely better than default. I'm sure it can be improved in many ways, but this was my first GS extension ever and I'm really lame, so bear with me (patches welcome). The source code is here:
http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.7z

How to try out:
1. boot F17 Beta RC2 Live
2. extract the extension to /usr/share/gnome-shell/extensions/
3. restart gnome-shell (Alt+F2 -> r)
4. install gnome-tweak-tool and enable this extension

Future steps if people like it:
a) find out how to include this just on the livecd, but not on the installed system
b) modify gsettings to have this extension automatically enabled
c) ask anaconda team to include it into their project and maintain it

Comments welcome.

Thanks,
Kamil

[Chris Murphy]

Post by Kamil Paral
http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.png
What do you think? Better than default?

How about "Install Fedora" since it could be installed to SSD or iSCSI etc.

Post by Kamil Paral
I personally think it's definitely better than default.

The problem is nothing shows up on Gnome 3's desktop, even items in the Desktop folder (which is just...it's asinine there's no polite way to say it.)

The present behavior is obscure, especially for new users. And the install icon in the activities drawer, or whatever it's called, doesn't have any text description unless the user mouses over.

It's like the installer is an easter egg that the user has to go on a hunt for, and hopefully find it before it rots.

Chris Murphy

[Kevin Kofler]

Post by Chris Murphy
The problem is nothing shows up on Gnome 3's desktop, even items in the
Desktop folder (which is just...it's asinine there's no polite way to say
it.)

I agree with that. KDE upstream recently also dropped the default folder
view from their default Plasma setup, we (KDE SIG) decided to readd it
through our kde-settings package, and in fact this exact issue (the liveinst
shortcut on the live CD) was the main reason we did that. (The folder view
comes up empty by default after installing the live CD, because there's
nothing else in the Desktop folder by default.)

Kevin Kofler

[Matthias Clasen]

Post by Kamil Paral
I was quite depressed how hard it can be for a layman to find a way to install Fedora from LiveCD environment. If you don't recognize the icon in Gnome Shell Overview mode, it can give you quite some work to find it. Since OSS philosophy is "if you don't like it, fix it", I did. In the last two days I have created a Gnome Shell extension that puts a button on the top bar that says "Install to Hard Drive". It has an icon attached, so it's very visible. The graphics and the text is taken from anaconda's .desktop file, so localization should work OOTB. When you click the button, the installation process starts the same way as if you had run it from the overview.
http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.png
What do you think? Better than default?
http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.7z
1. boot F17 Beta RC2 Live
2. extract the extension to /usr/share/gnome-shell/extensions/
3. restart gnome-shell (Alt+F2 -> r)
4. install gnome-tweak-tool and enable this extension
a) find out how to include this just on the livecd, but not on the installed system
b) modify gsettings to have this extension automatically enabled
c) ask anaconda team to include it into their project and maintain it

So, we decided for F16 that we don't want to add extensions like that to
the shell that we ship on the live cd. It should be the default
experience.

For the 'make installing obvious' problem, what we really want is to
just autostart the installer. Unfortunately, the current live installer
does not really work well for that...

[Chris Murphy]

Post by Matthias Clasen
So, we decided for F16 that we don't want to add extensions like that to
the shell that we ship on the live cd. It should be the default
experience.
For the 'make installing obvious' problem, what we really want is to
just autostart the installer. Unfortunately, the current live installer
does not really work well for that...

Is it a default experience to autostart apps?

If I'm using the LiveCD for troubleshooting, from actual media, do I really want to persistently experience the additional delays resulting from 2-3 minutes of lag while autostarting an installer I have no intention of using?

Doesn't this seem like additional hostility to mask over prior user hostile UI? I think the original premise is what needs to be challenged here.


Chris Murphy

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 10:29:27 -0400,

Post by Matthias Clasen
For the 'make installing obvious' problem, what we really want is to
just autostart the installer. Unfortunately, the current live installer
does not really work well for that...

I don't think that is a good idea. This imposes a penatly on every boot
for people who aren't planning to do install. I think just making it
easy to figure out how to start an install is what we want.

[Matthias Clasen]

Post by Bruno Wolff III
On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 10:29:27 -0400,

Post by Matthias Clasen
For the 'make installing obvious' problem, what we really want is to
just autostart the installer. Unfortunately, the current live installer
does not really work well for that...

I don't think that is a good idea. This imposes a penatly on every boot
for people who aren't planning to do install. I think just making it
easy to figure out how to start an install is what we want.

That really depends on what use cases we see for our live cds. In my
view, there's really only two:

The primary use for a live cd is to install.

And then, there is a secondary use where you want to review or test
without the intention to keep a permanent install.

Anyway, we can easily arrange things so that the installer does not get
autostarted anymore once you tick the 'No thanks, just playing'
checkbox.

[Chris Murphy]

Post by Matthias Clasen
Anyway, we can easily arrange things so that the installer does not get
autostarted anymore once you tick the 'No thanks, just playing' checkbox.

How about two user logins listed? One is a user named "Install Fedora" which autostarts the installer, and "Live User" does not. That's discoverable and concise. Even the checkbox idea is not nearly as discoverable, nor is it concise.

[Jesse Keating]

Post by Matthias Clasen
Anyway, we can easily arrange things so that the installer does not get
autostarted anymore once you tick the 'No thanks, just playing'
checkbox.

Instead of autolaunching the installer, why not autolaunch a very light
window that has two buttons: "Install Fedora" and "Evaluate Fedora".
Hell, could just be one button, "Install Fedora" but the window/app
itself can be dismissed. So basically every time you boot and log into
a live CD you get a popup offering you the ability to install, that can
be easily dismissed.

Thoughts?

[Jon Ciesla]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Matthias Clasen
Anyway, we can easily arrange things so that the installer does not get
autostarted anymore once you tick the 'No thanks, just playing'
checkbox.

Instead of autolaunching the installer, why not autolaunch a very light
window that has two buttons: "Install Fedora" and "Evaluate Fedora". Hell,
could just be one button, "Install Fedora" but the window/app itself can be
dismissed.  So basically every time you boot and log into a live CD you get
a popup offering you the ability to install, that can be easily dismissed.

For sure, two buttons, the evaluate one closes the window. Otherwise
we'll have 20,000 BZs filed saying "the livecd makes me install to the
hard drive!" :)

-J

Post by Jesse Keating
Thoughts?
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[inode0]

Post by Jesse Keating

Post by Matthias Clasen
Anyway, we can easily arrange things so that the installer does not get
autostarted anymore once you tick the 'No thanks, just playing'
checkbox.

Instead of autolaunching the installer, why not autolaunch a very light
window that has two buttons: "Install Fedora" and "Evaluate Fedora". Hell,
could just be one button, "Install Fedora" but the window/app itself can be
dismissed.  So basically every time you boot and log into a live CD you get
a popup offering you the ability to install, that can be easily dismissed.
Thoughts?

As someone who often uses live media but who almost never uses it to
install Fedora this would be extremely annoying compared to just
booting to the live media and having some obvious way to do an
installation if that is what the user wants to do without repeatedly
bothering those who don't.

My experience may not be ordinary, but I really think the "install
from live media" use case isn't all that common compared to other uses
of live media. I could be wrong, I certainly know people who do
install from the live media as well.

[Nathanael D. Noblet]

Post by inode0
As someone who often uses live media but who almost never uses it to
install Fedora this would be extremely annoying compared to just
booting to the live media and having some obvious way to do an
installation if that is what the user wants to do without repeatedly
bothering those who don't.
My experience may not be ordinary, but I really think the "install
from live media" use case isn't all that common compared to other uses
of live media. I could be wrong, I certainly know people who do
install from the live media as well.
From the options I've seen put on the table so far I would lean toward
either the original "just make it easy somehow to do it from the
desktop" or having it be an optional boot choice that is not the
default but that has an obvious label. Making it simple to do and
making it not a bother to those who don't want to install Fedora from
the live media would be a win for all use cases I think.

How bout adding/changing the icon for installing? Can we not include
some text in the icon? "Install Fedora" somehow??

[Jef Spaleta]

How bout adding/changing the icon for installing? Can we not include some
text in the icon? "Install Fedora" somehow??

Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about
the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in
the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full
install..and then the message lives in the message tray until
dismissed. Seems like the point of the message tray to me. Or am I
missing the point?

-jef

[Chris Murphy]

Post by Jef Spaleta
Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about
the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in
the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full
install..and then the message lives in the message tray until
dismissed.

Eminently plausible.


Chris Murphy

[Matthias Clasen]

Post by Jef Spaleta

How bout adding/changing the icon for installing? Can we not include some
text in the icon? "Install Fedora" somehow??

Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about
the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in
the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full
install..and then the message lives in the message tray until
dismissed. Seems like the point of the message tray to me. Or am I
missing the point

The one thing that a notification has going for it is that it doesn't
really require any design and the implementation is readily available.

But a welcome screen which offers to install or run uninstalled makes
more sense to me, design-wise.

[Adam Williamson]

Post by Matthias Clasen

Post by Jef Spaleta

How bout adding/changing the icon for installing? Can we not include some
text in the icon? "Install Fedora" somehow??

Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about
the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in
the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full
install..and then the message lives in the message tray until
dismissed. Seems like the point of the message tray to me. Or am I
missing the point

The one thing that a notification has going for it is that it doesn't
really require any design and the implementation is readily available.
But a welcome screen which offers to install or run uninstalled makes
more sense to me, design-wise.

Sorry for the thread archaeology, I'm catching up on two weeks of -devel
after Beta crunch and travelling.

One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda
team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the
anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has
been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the
live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which
would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD /
netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede
all the other suggestions, I think.

Brian, is the above actually likely to happen in any near-future
timeframe? Or is it just one of those 'wouldn't it be nice if...'
things?

[Chris Adams]

Post by Adam Williamson
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda
team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the
anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has
been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the
live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which
would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD /
netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede
all the other suggestions, I think.

I'm guessing that such a "anaconda in a locked-down environment" would
have to be installing packages from the network, since there certainly
isn't space on the disc for both a live image and the necessary RPMs.

At that point, what's the point of combining netinst and live? Remove
the install-from-live support and have live images as just live images.

[drago01]

Post by Chris Adams

Post by Adam Williamson
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda
team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the
anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has
been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the
live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which
would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD /
netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede
all the other suggestions, I think.

I'm guessing that such a "anaconda in a locked-down environment" would
have to be installing packages from the network, since there certainly
isn't space on the disc for both a live image and the necessary RPMs.

Sure there is unless you imply that "disc" == "cd".

[Chris Adams]

Post by drago01

Post by Chris Adams
I'm guessing that such a "anaconda in a locked-down environment" would
have to be installing packages from the network, since there certainly
isn't space on the disc for both a live image and the necessary RPMs.

Sure there is unless you imply that "disc" == "cd".

Well, having to download and copy/burn to boot media an image containing
hundreds of megs (or a couple of gigs) worth of RPMs just to get a live
boot would be irritating (to say the least).

[drago01]

Post by Chris Adams

Post by drago01

Post by Chris Adams
I'm guessing that such a "anaconda in a locked-down environment" would
have to be installing packages from the network, since there certainly
isn't space on the disc for both a live image and the necessary RPMs.

Sure there is unless you imply that "disc" == "cd".

Well, having to download and copy/burn to boot media an image containing
hundreds of megs (or a couple of gigs) worth of RPMs just to get a live
boot would be irritating (to say the least).

Well it is not like you download it daily so ...

[Chris Adams]

Post by drago01
Well it is not like you download it daily so ...

That would be an incredibly poor justification to cram two otherwise
unrelated things (live and install) into one image (if that is indeed
the idea of the anaconda group - I haven't seen any clarification yet).

[drago01]

Post by Chris Adams

Post by drago01
Well it is not like you download it daily so ...

That would be an incredibly poor justification to cram two otherwise
unrelated things (live and install)

Obviously they aren't that unrelated otherwise we wouldn't be having
this discussion ;)

Post by Chris Adams
into one image (if that is indeed
the idea of the anaconda group - I haven't seen any clarification yet).

I am just saying we shouldn't limit the user experience by the size of
an obsolete medium i.e "it does not fit on a CD" should not be a
blocker for anything IMO.

[Adam Williamson]

Post by Chris Adams

Post by Adam Williamson
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda
team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the
anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has
been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the
live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which
would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD /
netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede
all the other suggestions, I think.

I'm guessing that such a "anaconda in a locked-down environment" would
have to be installing packages from the network, since there certainly
isn't space on the disc for both a live image and the necessary RPMs.

Why? I don't see any obvious technical reason why it couldn't still
simply dump the live image onto the hard disk, as it (more or less) does
at present. If anything it'd be easier, because the image it was trying
to dump wouldn't be...the running environment. :)

[Brian C. Lane]

Post by Adam Williamson
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda
team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the
anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has
been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the
live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which
would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD /
netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede
all the other suggestions, I think.

There's more than one of us I think :)

Post by Adam Williamson
Brian, is the above actually likely to happen in any near-future
timeframe? Or is it just one of those 'wouldn't it be nice if...'
things?

Not for F17. Maybe for F18 if I can figure out a way to do it that
wouldn't confuse the heck out of everyone already using live to do their
install.s

The reason why I dislike liveinst is that by launching it from a running
system the environment setup for it isn't as consistent as when it is
run from a DVD or netinst.iso install environment. This results in odd
bugs related to liveinst that don't show up in the normal install path.

[Bill Nottingham]

Post by Brian C. Lane
Not for F17. Maybe for F18 if I can figure out a way to do it that
wouldn't confuse the heck out of everyone already using live to do their
install.s
The reason why I dislike liveinst is that by launching it from a running
system the environment setup for it isn't as consistent as when it is
run from a DVD or netinst.iso install environment. This results in odd
bugs related to liveinst that don't show up in the normal install path.

If anaconda's already using a custom systemd target, what prevents also
shipping that target on the live image and booting to it?

Bill

[Vít Ondruch]

Post by Adam Williamson

Post by Matthias Clasen

Post by Jef Spaleta

How bout adding/changing the icon for installing? Can we not include some
text in the icon? "Install Fedora" somehow??

Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about
the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in
the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full
install..and then the message lives in the message tray until
dismissed. Seems like the point of the message tray to me. Or am I
missing the point

The one thing that a notification has going for it is that it doesn't
really require any design and the implementation is readily available.
But a welcome screen which offers to install or run uninstalled makes
more sense to me, design-wise.

Sorry for the thread archaeology, I'm catching up on two weeks of -devel
after Beta crunch and travelling.
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda
team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the
anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has
been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the
live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which
would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD /
netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede
all the other suggestions, I think.

Actually that is exactly the opposite of what I'd like to see. I'd like
to be able to run Anaconda from my F16 and install F17 on different
partition for example. Why should I download some installation medium
when I have already running system which is capable to run Anaconda?

Vit

[Adam Williamson]

Post by Matthias Clasen

Post by Jef Spaleta

How bout adding/changing the icon for installing? Can we not include some
text in the icon? "Install Fedora" somehow??

Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about
the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in
the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full
install..and then the message lives in the message tray until
dismissed. Seems like the point of the message tray to me. Or am I
missing the point

The one thing that a notification has going for it is that it doesn't
really require any design and the implementation is readily available.
But a welcome screen which offers to install or run uninstalled makes
more sense to me, design-wise.

Sorry for the thread archaeology, I'm catching up on two weeks of -devel
after Beta crunch and travelling.

One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because anaconda
team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the
anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has
been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the
live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install' (which
would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD /
netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda supersede
all the other suggestions, I think.

Brian, is the above actually likely to happen in any near-future
timeframe? Or is it just one of those 'wouldn't it be nice if...'
things?

[Chris Murphy]

Post by Adam Williamson
replace it with a choice on the
live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install'

I like this idea. Although perhaps slightly challenging to get concisely worded choices that also don't cause confusion. It's possible "Start" vs "Install" is sufficient. Slightly more clear "Start Fedora 17 Live Desktop" vs "Install Fedora xx".

However in the meantime for F17, is the installer Easter egg hunt still on? It's way too obscure presently.

Chris Murphy

[Chris Adams]

Post by Matthias Clasen
That really depends on what use cases we see for our live cds. In my
The primary use for a live cd is to install.

That's the primary use of the install media. The primary use of the
live media is to boot a live system.

[Ben Boeckel]

Post by Chris Adams

Post by Matthias Clasen
That really depends on what use cases we see for our live cds. In my
The primary use for a live cd is to install.

That's the primary use of the install media. The primary use of the
live media is to boot a live system.

+1. Testing whether a video card (or other non-removable hardware) is
supported or not is a prime use case of Live media for me.

- --Ben

[Matthias Clasen]

Post by Ben Boeckel

Post by Chris Adams

Post by Matthias Clasen
That really depends on what use cases we see for our live cds. In my
The primary use for a live cd is to install.

That's the primary use of the install media. The primary use of the
live media is to boot a live system.

+1. Testing whether a video card (or other non-removable hardware) is
supported or not is a prime use case of Live media for me.

I don't see how that would be hindered by autostarting the installer.

[Chris Murphy]

Post by Matthias Clasen
I don't see how that would be hindered by autostarting the installer.

I definitely dislike the idea of installer autostart. I imagine my typical live commentary with such a LiveCD as, "WTF?! I didn't ask for the g.d. installer to f'n launch! What the sh*t?!"

DVD and netinst media works this way, the LiveCD *expressly* should not.


Chris Murphy

[Harish Pillay]

* on the Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 12:54:46PM -0500, Chris Adams was commenting:
| Once upon a time, Matthias Clasen <mclasen at redhat.com> said:
| > That really depends on what use cases we see for our live cds. In my
| > view, there's really only two:
| >
| > The primary use for a live cd is to install.
|
| That's the primary use of the install media. The primary use of the
| live media is to boot a live system.

There are significant regions where people only get LiveCDs and
not Install CDs - bandwidth, swag handouts at events etc.

So, I think placing the icon/text on the top bar (as proposed
by the OP), makes things much clearer and obvious. I've gotten
so many questions about how to install from the liveCD, that
it clearly is something that we should fix and make obvious.

Regards.

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 12:44:17 -0400,

Post by Matthias Clasen
That really depends on what use cases we see for our live cds. In my
The primary use for a live cd is to install.
And then, there is a secondary use where you want to review or test
without the intention to keep a permanent install.

You can use it as a rescue image, which is similar to the the latter case.

You can also use it as a way to have trusted image to run on machines
you don't get to install software on.

Post by Matthias Clasen
Anyway, we can easily arrange things so that the installer does not get
autostarted anymore once you tick the 'No thanks, just playing'
checkbox.

That won't work on write once media. Even on a USB you need to have
added an overlay or home area when you put the image on the USB or
you aren't going to be able to change things.

[&quot;Germán A. Racca&quot;]

Post by Bruno Wolff III
On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 10:29:27 -0400,

Post by Matthias Clasen
For the 'make installing obvious' problem, what we really want is to
just autostart the installer. Unfortunately, the current live installer
does not really work well for that...

I don't think that is a good idea. This imposes a penatly on every boot
for people who aren't planning to do install. I think just making it
easy to figure out how to start an install is what we want.

I agree with you. Autostart the installer? Who thought such a horrible
thing? Using a LiveCD doesn't mean that you are going to install...

Germán.

[Kevin Kofler]

Post by Matthias Clasen
So, we decided for F16 that we don't want to add extensions like that to
the shell that we ship on the live cd. It should be the default
experience.

I think that's a very bad (and dogmatic) decision. We should ship what's
best for our users (of Fedora), not what's 100% unmodified GNOME.

Post by Matthias Clasen
For the 'make installing obvious' problem, what we really want is to
just autostart the installer. Unfortunately, the current live installer
does not really work well for that...

I agree with the other responders who said that that's a horrible and very
unhelpful idea.

Kevin Kofler

[Kamil Paral]

Post by Chris Murphy

Post by Kamil Paral
http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.png
What do you think? Better than default?

How about "Install Fedora" since it could be installed to SSD or
iSCSI etc.

I pull that string from default anaconda launcher. If they change it, it will change also in the button. I proposed it here:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=809499

Post by Chris Murphy
The problem is nothing shows up on Gnome 3's desktop, even items in
the Desktop folder (which is just...it's asinine there's no polite
way to say it.)
The present behavior is obscure, especially for new users. And the
install icon in the activities drawer, or whatever it's called,

"Dash"

Post by Chris Murphy
doesn't have any text description unless the user mouses over.
It's like the installer is an easter egg that the user has to go on a
hunt for, and hopefully find it before it rots.

Right, that's exactly what annoyed me.

Of course other approaches are possible. I could force Shell to display desktop icons and put the launcher there. But then the livecd environment would be substantially different from installed environment and that's a bad approach. The install button can also be put into the user menu in the upper right corner, it's just not as visible there. Overall the button on the top bar was easy enough to implement and also the best idea I was able to come up with.

[Kamil Paral]

Post by Matthias Clasen
So, we decided for F16 that we don't want to add extensions like that
to
the shell that we ship on the live cd. It should be the default
experience.

Can't be 100% default, because installer is a slightly different use case, isn't it.

Post by Matthias Clasen
For the 'make installing obvious' problem, what we really want is to
just autostart the installer. Unfortunately, the current live
installer
does not really work well for that...

If you try to close anaconda, it shuts down the whole machine. A lot of users could assume that they just can't use the livecd environment for standard work, to try it out. Also if you start an application fullscreen, it's not really obvious that don't have to use it. If you don't know Gnome Shell and don't click on the top bar, you won't even know you're in a livecd environment.

I think some adjustments are necessary.

I wonder, have you looked at Ubuntu? First of all, there are two separate menu items in the CD boot menu, "Try without installing" and "Install ubuntu". Second, if you don't choose any item, this is what you get after boot:
Loading Image...

"Try Ubuntu" will run the default livecd environment, "Install Ubuntu" will run the installer in fullscreen mode. That seems like great usability solution to me.

Not that I would require the same for Fedora. It would be nice, yes, but my small button is definitely easier to implement and serves the purpose as well, I believe.

[Jiri Eischmann]

Post by Kamil Paral
I was quite depressed how hard it can be for a layman to find a way to install Fedora from LiveCD environment. If you don't recognize the icon in Gnome Shell Overview mode, it can give you quite some work to find it. Since OSS philosophy is "if you don't like it, fix it", I did. In the last two days I have created a Gnome Shell extension that puts a button on the top bar that says "Install to Hard Drive". It has an icon attached, so it's very visible. The graphics and the text is taken from anaconda's .desktop file, so localization should work OOTB. When you click the button, the installation process starts the same way as if you had run it from the overview.
http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.png
What do you think? Better than default?
http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.7z
1. boot F17 Beta RC2 Live
2. extract the extension to /usr/share/gnome-shell/extensions/
3. restart gnome-shell (Alt+F2 -> r)
4. install gnome-tweak-tool and enable this extension
a) find out how to include this just on the livecd, but not on the installed system
b) modify gsettings to have this extension automatically enabled
c) ask anaconda team to include it into their project and maintain it
Comments welcome.
Thanks,
Kamil

I think this is definitely something we should fix. I don't even
remember how many times I've been asked how to install Fedora from the
liveCD.
The solution proposed by Kamil is definitely better and more obvious
than the one we've had so far.
If we want to have as default look as possible we might want to change
the icon in the dash. Something like adding text in the icon "Install
Fedora". I know it probably breaks all icon guidelines, but I don't know
any picture that would obviously stand for installation.
The way it is now is really more like an easter egg or a contest "who
will find a way to install Fedora first".

Jiri

[Kamil Paral]

To summarize, I see two major paths:

a) Make installer launcher more visible:
e.g. http://kparal.fedorapeople.org/misc/InstallFedoraButton.png

-or-

b) Use a proxy window asking which use case is relevant for you:
e.g. http://i.imgur.com/I26vS.png

Both approaches are fine in my view and certainly improve the current state. The implementation of each approach can very a lot, especially for the first one.

One more comment to "we want to provide the default experience":
Gnome Shell is quite intuitive *once you know it*. But if you see it for the first time, it is not, it brings a lot of new concepts. And it lacks any options to make an important launcher really visible. For this reason the stock/default experience is not suitable for the LiveCD installer use case. It is not a fault, because it targets something else. We just need to adjust it accordingly in this case.

[Kamil Paral]

Post by Jef Spaleta
Actually... would it make sense to force a notification event about
the install option on live CD login? It pops up for a few seconds in
the message tray telling you this media can be used for a full
install..and then the message lives in the message tray until
dismissed.

That is a good idea that can be probably implemented very easily.

However, what is the benefit over a persistent button in the top panel?

[Jef Spaleta]

Post by Kamil Paral
That is a good idea that can be probably implemented very easily.
However, what is the benefit over a persistent button in the top panel?

I believe its adequately provides a solution to meet all constraints
so far expressed in this discussion.

1) Notice on login with buttons!
2) Automatically hides itself after a few seconds and gets the hell
out of the way if you don't want to do an install and really do want
to use this live environment.
3) Does not change the delivered UI by adding a new static element
that is Fedora install specific.
4) Available in the overview as a reminder until dismissed..allowing
for delayed install action.


This makes the install bubble equivalent UI to the current selinux avc
notices. They pop up (on login) you can either deal with them or not.

The reality is Gnome 3 is trying very very hard to remove the swamp
that was the notification tray along the top bar. Good or bad, right
or wrong, that is clearly one of the design goals.
The button in the top panel works directly against that goal. So
instead of digging our heels into an implementation that is clearly
not aligned with upstream design decisions, lets find something that
works and meets the constraints. I'm not going to bash my head
against the brickwall supporting an implementation that is out of step
with the over all design in what has become a design led UI.

-jef

[Kamil Paral]

Post by Jef Spaleta

Post by Kamil Paral
That is a good idea that can be probably implemented very easily.
However, what is the benefit over a persistent button in the top
panel?

I believe its adequately provides a solution to meet all constraints
so far expressed in this discussion.
1) Notice on login with buttons!
2) Automatically hides itself after a few seconds and gets the hell
out of the way if you don't want to do an install and really do want
to use this live environment.
3) Does not change the delivered UI by adding a new static element
that is Fedora install specific.
4) Available in the overview as a reminder until dismissed..allowing
for delayed install action.

Doesn't it block any other notifications being displayed? Or won't subsequent notifications hide it?

If we can keep it displayed until manually dismissed and it won't block any other notifications to pop up, then it seems like a good solution. Otherwise persistent button appeals me more, because it's just there, not running away, you don't need to care why it disappeared and how you can find it again.

Design-led software is a nice thing, but up to certain point. Designers did not envision this use case and did not offer any solution. And I'm not surprised. It's a one-time process, so it has to be one-time tweaked.

[Chris Murphy]

Post by Kamil Paral
Doesn't it block any other notifications being displayed? Or won't subsequent notifications hide it?
If we can keep it displayed until manually dismissed and it won't block any other notifications to pop up, then it seems like a good solution. Otherwise persistent button appeals me more, because it's just there, not running away, you don't need to care why it disappeared and how you can find it again.

Persistance is a very good attribute. Imagine someone plays with the LiveCD, they like it, they play more, like it more, now they want to install - but do we really want them having to reboot to get the notification/message again so they know where to go find the easter egg installer?? Nooo... better have it in a consistent location.

In fact, I'd advise both notification/message as well as the persistent menu bar installer option. We are talking about a significant minority of Windows and Mac OS (and maybe some other linux distro) users here. Be inviting.

Chris Murphy

[Kamil Paral]

The discussion died off, so I'll sum it up:

* Almost everyone agreed that current situation is highly unsatisfactory.

* We have several ideas how to remedy it, which include: top bar button, notification and welcome screen.

* We have just a single implementation, which is the top bar button.

Since ideas are cheap and implementations are expensive, I'm going to try to push the current implementation to the default LiveCD desktop. If another implementation appears and is considered superior to the first one, let's replace it. But I want to have at least some solution ready for F17 Final. It might not be the best one, but it's better than having nothing at all.

I think the best approach here is to contact anaconda team and ask them to adopt the code. Ideally this would be a part of anaconda.

If you have better ideas how to proceed, please let me know.

Thanks,
Kamil

[Chris Murphy]

Post by Kamil Paral
I think the best approach here is to contact anaconda team and ask them to adopt the code. Ideally this would be a part of anaconda.

I understand anaconda is the installer. But doesn't the livecd-tools / livecd-creator group determine the tools and Ux for the LiveCD? Maybe they should be lobbied?

In any event, I agree with the three bullet points. And until better ideas that also have initial implementations to work with, running with the top bar / menu bar option is OK. It'd be nice to get some traction on bug 809499.



Chris Murphy

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Fri, Apr 06, 2012 at 12:21:32 -0600,

Post by Chris Murphy

Post by Kamil Paral
I think the best approach here is to contact anaconda team and ask them to adopt the code. Ideally this would be a part of anaconda.

I understand anaconda is the installer. But doesn't the livecd-tools / livecd-creator group determine the tools and Ux for the LiveCD? Maybe they should be lobbied?

This would really be under the purview of the Desktop team.

[Pádraig Brady]

Post by Kamil Paral
I was quite depressed how hard it can be for a layman to find a way to install Fedora from LiveCD environment.

On a more general note it would be nice to stream-line the experience from web to installation.
Most of the hard parts are done, just a few steps to polish.

As a developer I don't read the docs and for ages have just:

wget -c ... # download live image (-c to resume partial)
ls -1 /sys/block | grep usb (To find USBDEV)
dd iflag=direct oflag=direct bs=1M if=file.iso of=/dev/$USBDEV
(I use direct to avoid linux virtual memory stalls and cache eviction)

So as an experiment I tried as a new user would,
to see how easily they could come to an equivalent conclusion:

1a. Search for "install fedora" -> get.fedoraproject.org
This is very good
1b. Search for "fedora linux" -> fedoraproject.org
This is OK, but there are 6 download links on that page which is confusing.
Also it mentions "CD-ROM" image which is no longer the norm.
I'd just have "download development" linking to iso, and "download" linking to get.fedoraproject.org

2. To get to the default instructions for writing the image:
http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora (alias for get.fedoraproject.org)
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Guide/Making_USB_Media.html (covers windows)
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Guide/Making_USB_Media-UNIX_Linux.html
3.2.2.1.1. Making Fedora USB Media with a graphical tool
This erroneously mentions needing to enable EPEL.
I also notice this pulls in lots of QT stuff to a default install (106MB!)
So I insert my (existing F17) usb install disk and
run the liveusb-creator GUI which outputs
Unable to find any USB drives
Enabling -v from the command line, gives:
Skipping /dev/sdb with unknown filesystem: iso9660
So apparently this tool is a higher level tool and doesn't support a mode
where the image is simply written to the device.

I'll look at improving the Fedora docs as per the notes above.

Post by Kamil Paral
If you don't recognize the icon in Gnome Shell Overview mode, it can give you quite some work to find it.

To be precise, one has to:
1. Click activities
2. Click the hard drive "with a green hat on it"
I agree that's not immediately obvious.
So as to solutions:
1. Your suggestion of a persistent panel item is not ideal but better.
This is a fine interim solution.
2. The suggestion of an earlier "install" or "boot live" option is good too, but a bit more invasive.
3. The suggestion of using notifications may be better but not until notifications are fixed:

cheers,
Pádraig.

[Kamil Paral]

Post by Adam Williamson
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because
anaconda
team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the
anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has
been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the
live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install'
(which
would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD
/
netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda
supersede
all the other suggestions, I think.

Sure, if that works out, it's very easy to delete the extension. As an interim solution I think it's fine.

Post by Adam Williamson
However in the meantime for F17, is the installer Easter egg hunt still on? It's way too obscure presently.

I did some minor tweaks, posted the code here:

https://github.com/kparal/InstallFedoraButton

and prepared a patch for fedora-live-desktop.ks.

I want to post the patch to anaconda-devel this week.

[Matthias Clasen]

Post by Kamil Paral

Post by Adam Williamson
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because
anaconda
team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the
anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has
been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the
live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install'
(which
would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD
/
netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda
supersede
all the other suggestions, I think.

Sure, if that works out, it's very easy to delete the extension. As an interim solution I think it's fine.

No, it is not. I've said so the first time, and I have not changed my
opinion. Make it a notification.

[Camilo Mesias]

Post by Matthias Clasen
No, it is not. I've said so the first time, and I have not changed my
opinion. Make it a notification.

All this discussion is obscuring the original problem. Although a
notification is easy, if it is dismissed, it fails as a method to
start an install. So it's inferior to a dedicated button.
Also, I think the use cases are inaccurate... Install would normally
be only after seeing that the basic desktop / networking /
suspend-resume was working properly. So I see several use cases: use
livecd for some activity; use for testing followed by install; and
more rarely, install immediately. A notification or popup at login
time is only really a good fit for the immediate install use case.

-Cam

[Chris Murphy]

Post by Camilo Mesias

Post by Matthias Clasen
No, it is not. I've said so the first time, and I have not changed my
opinion. Make it a notification.

All this discussion is obscuring the original problem. Although a
notification is easy, if it is dismissed, it fails as a method to
start an install. So it's inferior to a dedicated button.
Also, I think the use cases are inaccurate... Install would normally
be only after seeing that the basic desktop / networking /
suspend-resume was working properly. So I see several use cases: use
livecd for some activity; use for testing followed by install; and
more rarely, install immediately. A notification or popup at login
time is only really a good fit for the immediate install use case.

In effect it may necessitate a reboot to get that notification back, in order to know how to install? That's user hostile, in my book. The notification would be nice, although perhaps superfluous, in addition to the button. But it's inadequate in lieu of the button.


Chris Murphy

[Florian Müllner]

Post by Chris Murphy
In effect it may necessitate a reboot to get that notification back, in
order to know how to install?

Not if the notification is resident, in which case it will remain in the
message tray even after it has been acknowledged by the user.


Regards,
Florian
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[Chris Murphy]

Post by Chris Murphy
In effect it may necessitate a reboot to get that notification back, in order to know how to install?
Not if the notification is resident, in which case it will remain in the message tray even after it has been acknowledged by the user.

That is obscure UI design, and therefore doesn't resolve the current UI obscurity. So I see very little efficacy in the idea.

Chris Murphy
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[Matthias Clasen]

Post by Chris Murphy
That is obscure UI design, and therefore doesn't resolve the current
UI obscurity. So I see very little efficacy in the idea.

To contribute something positive here, I went ahead and implemented the
'oscurity'. See attached. As an extra win, it only needs 30 lines of
code, compared to Kamils 60.

Of course, neither the extension nor the notification have any
translations, so they are not really suitable for including as-is in
F17.

Matthias
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[&quot;Germán A. Racca&quot;]

Post by Kamil Paral

Post by Adam Williamson
One angle on this that didn't get pointed out, I guess because
anaconda
team apparently isn't reading, is that at least one person on the
anaconda team - I forget who - hates liveinst with a passion and has
been proposing forever to kill it and replace it with a choice on the
live image boot menu between 'boot a live desktop' and 'install'
(which
would run anaconda in a locked-down environment, just like on the DVD
/
netinst). If that plan were to actually happen it would kinda
supersede
all the other suggestions, I think.

Sure, if that works out, it's very easy to delete the extension. As an interim solution I think it's fine.

Post by Adam Williamson
However in the meantime for F17, is the installer Easter egg hunt still on? It's way too obscure presently.

https://github.com/kparal/InstallFedoraButton
and prepared a patch for fedora-live-desktop.ks.
I want to post the patch to anaconda-devel this week.

What do you thing about moving the icon to the left?

[Chris Murphy]

Post by &quot;Germán A. Racca&quot;
What do you thing about moving the icon to the left?

It doesn't improve the UI, or discoverability, in my opinion. But it does potentially conflict with the active application. The existing location seems reasonable.

I think the name is a bigger problem than the location, and needs to be altered, however. I separately mentioned this on the anaconda list but basically, the two solutions:

"Launch Fedora Installer" is more correct.

"Install Fedora . . . " is also acceptable UI convention to indicate additional options will be presented (by the installer) rather than an immediate installation to the hard disk with no user interaction.


Chris Murphy

[&quot;Germán A. Racca&quot;]

Post by Chris Murphy

Post by &quot;Germán A. Racca&quot;
What do you thing about moving the icon to the left?

It doesn't improve the UI, or discoverability, in my opinion. But it does potentially conflict with the active application. The existing location seems reasonable.
"Launch Fedora Installer" is more correct.
"Install Fedora . . . " is also acceptable UI convention to indicate additional options will be presented (by the installer) rather than an immediate installation to the hard disk with no user interaction.
Chris Murphy

Forget it. The screenshot clarified all my doubts :)

I also vote for a different name in the button, but not sure which one.
Both mentioned here seem more reasonable.

Germán.

[Kamil Paral]

Post by Kamil Paral

Post by Chris Murphy
However in the meantime for F17, is the installer Easter egg hunt
still on? It's way too obscure presently.

https://github.com/kparal/InstallFedoraButton
and prepared a patch for fedora-live-desktop.ks.
I want to post the patch to anaconda-devel this week.

Posted:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/anaconda-devel-list/2012-April/msg00212.html

But they still must accept it.

[Kamil Paral]

Post by &quot;Germán A. Racca&quot;

Post by Kamil Paral
https://github.com/kparal/InstallFedoraButton
and prepared a patch for fedora-live-desktop.ks.
I want to post the patch to anaconda-devel this week.

What do you thing about moving the icon to the left?

This has already been raised in anaconda-devel. I have updated the screenshot to make it clear the left side is already taken by application menu. If you still know where you would like to see it, please modify the picture and indicate the correct location, thanks.

[Kamil Paral]

Post by Matthias Clasen

Post by Chris Murphy
That is obscure UI design, and therefore doesn't resolve the
current
UI obscurity. So I see very little efficacy in the idea.

To contribute something positive here, I went ahead and implemented
the
'oscurity'. See attached.

I tried that out. For some reason the notification doesn't pop up after I run the program, is that intended? You have to open the overview mode to view an icon in bottom right and then click that icon to see the message. I created a screenshot gallery here (using time order):

http://imgur.com/a/3hAEJ

Currently that is obscure the same way the current dash launcher is. We would need at least to pop up that notification right after logging in, and then hide the notification if users clicks on it (outside the Install button). Ideally it should be clear that the button is still available to the user even if I dismiss the notification (I'm not sure how to do that). Another question is what happens if user doesn't dismiss it, what about other notifications, do they just queue and don't show up?

Post by Matthias Clasen
Of course, neither the extension nor the notification have any
translations, so they are not really suitable for including as-is in
F17.

As I have described earlier, InstallFedoraButton doesn't need any translations, it uses anaconda.desktop file. Try to switch your language to german or french and you'll see the button text in german or french.

[Camilo Mesias]

"resistance is futile"

Post by Kamil Paral

Post by Matthias Clasen

Post by Chris Murphy
That is obscure UI design, and therefore doesn't resolve the current
UI obscurity. So I see very little efficacy in the idea.

To contribute something positive here, I went ahead and implemented the
'oscurity'. See attached.

I tried that out. For some reason the notification doesn't pop up after I
run the program, is that intended? You have to open the overview mode to
view an icon in bottom right and then click that icon to see the message. I
http://imgur.com/a/3hAEJ
Currently that is obscure the same way the current dash launcher is. We
would need at least to pop up that notification right after logging in, and
then hide the notification if users clicks on it (outside the Install
button). Ideally it should be clear that the button is still available to
the user even if I dismiss the notification (I'm not sure how to do that).
Another question is what happens if user doesn't dismiss it, what about
other notifications, do they just queue and don't show up?

Post by Matthias Clasen
Of course, neither the extension nor the notification have any
translations, so they are not really suitable for including as-is in
F17.

As I have described earlier, InstallFedoraButton doesn't need any
translations, it uses anaconda.desktop file. Try to switch your language to
german or french and you'll see the button text in german or french.
--
devel mailing list
devel at lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel

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[Florian Müllner]

Hey,

Post by Kamil Paral
I tried that out. For some reason the notification doesn't pop up after I
run the program, is that intended?

No, it should be shown in "banner mode" like in
http://imgur.com/Gk1Az(that's a screenshot of running the unmodified
program here).

Currently that is obscure the same way the current dash launcher is. We

Post by Kamil Paral
would need at least to pop up that notification right after logging in, and
then hide the notification if users clicks on it (outside the Install
button). Ideally it should be clear that the button is still available to
the user even if I dismiss the notification (I'm not sure how to do that).

After the notification pops down (either due to a timeout or because the
users dismisses it explicitly) the message tray ("translucent black bar at
the bottom holding notification icons") is shown for a moment to indicate
that that's where the notification went.


Another question is what happens if user doesn't dismiss it, what about

Post by Kamil Paral
other notifications, do they just queue and don't show up?

Only for the duration the notification is actively shown (as in my
screenshot), which is about two seconds if I recall correctly.


Regards,
Florian
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[Jiri Eischmann]

Post by Kamil Paral

Post by Matthias Clasen

Post by Chris Murphy
That is obscure UI design, and therefore doesn't resolve the
current
UI obscurity. So I see very little efficacy in the idea.

To contribute something positive here, I went ahead and implemented
the
'oscurity'. See attached.

http://imgur.com/a/3hAEJ
Currently that is obscure the same way the current dash launcher is. We would need at least to pop up that notification right after logging in, and then hide the notification if users clicks on it (outside the Install button). Ideally it should be clear that the button is still available to the user even if I dismiss the notification (I'm not sure how to do that). Another question is what happens if user doesn't dismiss it, what about other notifications, do they just queue and don't show up?

So if I understand it correctly instead of having an icon in the dash we
have the same icon, but smaller, in the systray where it is hidden even
more.
Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution?
The notification is nice, but the only job it does is that it says the
live system is installable. It really doesn't help the user find out how
to install it. Users familiar with the concept of GNOME 3 might get a
clue and look for it in the systray, but I think we're not fixing this
problem for them. We're fixing it for those who are rather new to Fedora
and GNOME 3.

Jiri

[Florian Müllner]

Post by Jiri Eischmann
The notification is nice, but the only job it does is that it says the
live system is installable. It really doesn't help the user find out how
to install it.

The notification contains a button which is labeled "Install". I don't
think users will have that much trouble figuring out what it does ...

Regards,
Florian
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[Jiri Eischmann]

Post by Florian Müllner

Post by Jiri Eischmann
The notification is nice, but the only job it does is that it says

the

Post by Jiri Eischmann
live system is installable. It really doesn't help the user find out

how

Post by Jiri Eischmann
to install it.

The notification contains a button which is labeled "Install". I don't
think users will have that much trouble figuring out what it does ...

Is the notification gonna persist for the whole session? If not the
button is not very helpful. I think the people, for whom Kamil wants to
fix this, won't install Fedora right away, they will want to play with
it and explore for a while. Meanwhile the notification will disappear
and the problem will come back again: where to start the installation
process?

I just wanted to say that the icon in the systray is even less likely to
be discovered that the icon in the dash. I'm pretty sure a lot of people
will just reboot to get the notification they saw at the beginning of
the session which is more or less our failure to fix this issue.

Jiri

[&quot;Germán A. Racca&quot;]

On Apr 20, 2012 11:55 AM, "Jiri Eischmann" <eischmann at redhat.com

Post by Jiri Eischmann
The notification is nice, but the only job it does is that it says the
live system is installable. It really doesn't help the user find out how
to install it.

The notification contains a button which is labeled "Install". I don't
think users will have that much trouble figuring out what it does ...
Regards,
Florian

For users like you and me it's ok, no problem to find the button in the
notification, because we already know where it is... but for a user that
never used Gnome 3 before, the notification will be hidden in the bottom
panel, which is hidden from the user and is hard to discover, unless you
already know that you must go with the mouse to the very right bottom
corner of the screen.

Germán.

[Matthias Clasen]

Post by Jiri Eischmann
Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution?

I've said from the beginning that I think the best solution is to show a
regular window, either just autostarting the installer or offering a
'install or just try uninstalled' choice. I'm not claiming that the
notification is a fantastic solution.

The improvement of the notification over the extension is that it
doesn't break some of the basic shell design choices by forcing itself
between the system status and the clock on the top panel.

[Tom Callaway]

Post by Matthias Clasen

Post by Jiri Eischmann
Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution?

I've said from the beginning that I think the best solution is to show a
regular window, either just autostarting the installer or offering a
'install or just try uninstalled' choice. I'm not claiming that the
notification is a fantastic solution.
The improvement of the notification over the extension is that it
doesn't break some of the basic shell design choices by forcing itself
between the system status and the clock on the top panel.

There seems to be at least some consensus that:

* The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here
because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of
confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk.

* The extension as proposed is not an ideal solution because it is too
intrusive a change on the GNOME Shell design that the Live Image is
demonstrating.

* Autostarting anaconda at startup is not an ideal solution because
there are many valid use-cases for the Live Image where this would not
be wanted, and also, if the new user closes it, they will have the same
difficulty launching it again later when they are ready.

* Launching a "install or try it uninstalled" merely masks the issue,
because when the user selects "try it uninstalled", they have the same
difficulty finding the installer again later when they are ready.

****

Would it be possible to design an extension that has a minimal impact on
the GNOME Shell design and still provides a clear, persistent, and
obvious way to install the Live Image to disk?

~tom

==
Fedora Project

[Vít Ondruch]

Post by Tom Callaway

Post by Matthias Clasen

Post by Jiri Eischmann
Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution?

I've said from the beginning that I think the best solution is to show a
regular window, either just autostarting the installer or offering a
'install or just try uninstalled' choice. I'm not claiming that the
notification is a fantastic solution.
The improvement of the notification over the extension is that it
doesn't break some of the basic shell design choices by forcing itself
between the system status and the clock on the top panel.

* The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here
because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of
confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk.
* The extension as proposed is not an ideal solution because it is too
intrusive a change on the GNOME Shell design that the Live Image is
demonstrating.
* Autostarting anaconda at startup is not an ideal solution because
there are many valid use-cases for the Live Image where this would not
be wanted, and also, if the new user closes it, they will have the same
difficulty launching it again later when they are ready.
* Launching a "install or try it uninstalled" merely masks the issue,
because when the user selects "try it uninstalled", they have the same
difficulty finding the installer again later when they are ready.
****
Would it be possible to design an extension that has a minimal impact on
the GNOME Shell design and still provides a clear, persistent, and
obvious way to install the Live Image to disk?
~tom
==
Fedora Project

What about something on GDM level? There would be something like "live"
user, which would run just the live image and "install" user which would
run the anaconda immediately? Or something along the way, not sure if
that is feasible (although I personally prefer the tray notification).


Vit

[Chris Murphy]

What about something on GDM level? There would be something like "live" user, which would run just the live image and "install" user which would run the anaconda immediately?

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-April/165275.html


Chris Murphy

[Bill Nottingham]

Post by Tom Callaway
* The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here
because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of
confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk.

The notification that Matthias posted is permanent, until the user
explicitly goes through and clicks to remove it.

I've updated it so that it pulls translations from anaconda for the tile
and the action item.

Bill
-------------- next part --------------
#!/usr/bin/env python

from gi.repository import GLib
from gi.repository import Gio
from gi.repository import Notify
import sys
import os

def install_cb(n, action):
assert action == "install"
n.close()
os.execlp("liveinst", "liveinst")

if __name__ == '__main__':
appinfo = Gio.DesktopAppInfo()
try:
desktop = appinfo.new_from_filename("/usr/share/applications/liveinst.desktop")
except:
sys.exit(1)
label = desktop.get_name()
actionlabel = desktop.get_generic_name()

if not Notify.init(label):
sys.exit(1)

n = Notify.Notification()
n.set_property("summary",label)
n.set_property("body",
"You are currently using an uninstalled live image.\n" +
"If you want to keep using Fedora, you can install " +
"it to your hard disk.")
n.set_property("icon-name","anaconda")
n.set_hint("resident", GLib.Variant('b',True))

n.add_action("install", actionlabel, install_cb, None, None)

if not n.show():
print "Failed to send notification"
sys.exit(1)

GLib.MainLoop().run()

[&quot;Germán A. Racca&quot;]

Post by Bill Nottingham

Post by Tom Callaway
* The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here
because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of
confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk.

The notification that Matthias posted is permanent, until the user
explicitly goes through and clicks to remove it.
I've updated it so that it pulls translations from anaconda for the tile
and the action item.
Bill

$ python install.py
TypeError: install_cb() takes exactly 2 arguments (3 given)

[Bill Nottingham]

Post by &quot;Germán A. Racca&quot;

Post by Bill Nottingham

Post by Tom Callaway
* The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here
because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of
confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk.

The notification that Matthias posted is permanent, until the user
explicitly goes through and clicks to remove it.
I've updated it so that it pulls translations from anaconda for the tile
and the action item.
Bill

$ python install.py
TypeError: install_cb() takes exactly 2 arguments (3 given)

Change "def install_cb(n, action):" to "def install_cb(n, action, data):"

Sorry about that,
Bill

[Chris Murphy]

Post by Matthias Clasen

Post by Jiri Eischmann
Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution?

Negative.

Post by Matthias Clasen
I've said from the beginning that I think the best solution is to show a
regular window, either just autostarting the installer or offering a
'install or just try uninstalled' choice. I'm not claiming that the
notification is a fantastic solution.
The improvement of the notification over the extension is that it
doesn't break some of the basic shell design choices by forcing itself
between the system status and the clock on the top panel.

Exhibit A: Notification doesn't have translations. It is also not persistently discoverable.

Exhibit B: The button/extension inherits translation, it is persistently discoverable.

Exhibit C: Autostarting the installer on a LiveCD is user hostile, totally untenable. Put such a Live CD into a flaming bag of dog crap, with optional sparklers for further effect.

Exhibit D: A regular window will be closed by the user, and now where is the installer? Not persistently discoverable.

Exhibit E: The basic shell design is asinine and indefensible. A Desktop folder, contents of which do not show up on the desktop. That's what started this problem, for which there was previously quite a universally accepted means of persistent discoverability of the installer icon.

If not the button, I'd propose an enduring hack to restore sensible desktop icon functionality and my right to a cluttered desktop.


Chris Murphy

[Kevin Kofler]

Post by Chris Murphy
If not the button, I'd propose an enduring hack to restore sensible
desktop icon functionality and my right to a cluttered desktop.

+1

On the KDE spin, we explicitly kept desktop icons enabled (in the form of
the Plasma folder view widget) exactly because of this usecase. Why can't
the GNOME spin follow suit?

Kevin Kofler

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 09:52:38 -0400,

Post by Matthias Clasen

Post by Jiri Eischmann
Am I the only one who doesn't see any improvement in this solution?

I've said from the beginning that I think the best solution is to show a
regular window, either just autostarting the installer or offering a
'install or just try uninstalled' choice. I'm not claiming that the
notification is a fantastic solution.

That isn't a good solution for people who normally use live images for
stuff other than installing, as it will bug them every time they use
the image. Though a possible compromise here is to only do that on the
desktop image and not any of the other images that derive from desktop.

[Kamil Paral]

Post by Tom Callaway
* The notification, unless permanent, is not an ideal solution here
because once it goes away, the user is in the same situation of
confusion as to how to install the Live Image to disk.
* The extension as proposed is not an ideal solution because it is
too
intrusive a change on the GNOME Shell design that the Live Image is
demonstrating.
* Autostarting anaconda at startup is not an ideal solution because
there are many valid use-cases for the Live Image where this would
not
be wanted, and also, if the new user closes it, they will have the
same
difficulty launching it again later when they are ready.
* Launching a "install or try it uninstalled" merely masks the issue,
because when the user selects "try it uninstalled", they have the
same
difficulty finding the installer again later when they are ready.
****
Would it be possible to design an extension that has a minimal impact
on
the GNOME Shell design and still provides a clear, persistent, and
obvious way to install the Live Image to disk?
~tom

The discussion has died. I have lost any hope that it could lead to a positive output, so I'll not push any more. The desktop SIG expressed clear and utter "NO".

For the last two Fedora releases new Fedora users have been having a hard time to locate the installer. It seems to be clear that nothing will change in Fedora 17. I find it sad how desktop guys try to veto solutions they don't like, but they don't push on any other solutions. I also find it sad how strong their rejection is even though the overwhelming majority of other respondents like it.

I'll keep the source code on github [1]. Maybe it will be useful for someone else, some time, e.g. for some Fedora spin or for a different Linux distribution. If anybody wants to continue in pushing this, and explaining better to desktop SIG, you're welcome.

[1] https://github.com/kparal/InstallFedoraButton

[Colin Walters]

Hi Kamil,

Post by Kamil Paral
but they don't push on any other solutions.

A link from the http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora page directly
to
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Quick_Start_Guide/Fedora_Live_Desktop.html

?
To be honest I'm torn myself because I do sometimes use live images for
their "try before you buy" ability, not necessarily to install to disk
right at that second. But having an extension installed by default has
a lot of technical ramifications; for example, it'll also get copied to
the hard disk after you install. Also, while I'm not an artist or
designer, I think it looks pretty ugly...

The whole thing is clearly a mess that needs some high level
streamlining, from the entire process of download from web page (or
receive CD from friend) to the on-disk install first boot.

[Jared K. Smith]

Post by Colin Walters
The whole thing is clearly a mess that needs some high level
streamlining, from the entire process of download from web page (or
receive CD from friend) to the on-disk install first boot.

While I certainly wouldn't disagree with this statement, let's not let
perfect get in the way of better here.

What can we do in the *near* term to make it easier for people to find
the "Install to Hard Drive" option from the LiveCD? I understand that
there are technical reasons why the extension is frowned upon -- but
that shouldn't mean that we do nothing to try to improve the
situation. I tried not to complain too loudly while I was the FPL,
especially because GNOME Shell was new and had plenty of other things
to focus on. Now that it's a bit more mature, I'd really like to come
up with a better solution here.

--
Jared Smith

[&quot;Germán A. Racca&quot;]

Post by Colin Walters
Hi Kamil,

Post by Kamil Paral
but they don't push on any other solutions.

A link from the http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora page directly
to
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Quick_Start_Guide/Fedora_Live_Desktop.html
?

+1

It would be nice if this links is in the get-fedora page.

All the best,
Germán.

Post by Colin Walters
To be honest I'm torn myself because I do sometimes use live images for
their "try before you buy" ability, not necessarily to install to disk
right at that second. But having an extension installed by default has
a lot of technical ramifications; for example, it'll also get copied to
the hard disk after you install. Also, while I'm not an artist or
designer, I think it looks pretty ugly...
The whole thing is clearly a mess that needs some high level
streamlining, from the entire process of download from web page (or
receive CD from friend) to the on-disk install first boot.

[Bill Nottingham]

Post by Kamil Paral
I find it sad how desktop guys try to veto solutions they don't like,
but they don't push on any other solutions.

I don't know how proposing and implementing a notification method of doing
the same isn't providing a solution, but you're welcome to your own cross.

Bill

[Jared K. Smith]

Post by Bill Nottingham
I don't know how proposing and implementing a notification method of doing
the same isn't providing a solution, but you're welcome to your own cross.

Sorry Bill -- I'm confused here. Was a notification method actually
implemented? Was it enabled in F17.TC1? If so, I didn't see it. Or
was it implemented only for rawhide?

--
Jared Smith

[Florian Müllner]

Post by Jared K. Smith
Sorry Bill -- I'm confused here. Was a notification method actually
implemented? Was it enabled in F17.TC1? If so, I didn't see it. Or
was it implemented only for rawhide?

It was implemented only in the sense that code was written and posted to
this list for discussion.

Florian
-------------- next part --------------
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[Kalev Lember]

Post by Jared K. Smith

Post by Bill Nottingham
I don't know how proposing and implementing a notification method of doing
the same isn't providing a solution, but you're welcome to your own cross.

Sorry Bill -- I'm confused here. Was a notification method actually
implemented? Was it enabled in F17.TC1? If so, I didn't see it. Or
was it implemented only for rawhide?

I finished up the work on the notification and landed it in
spin-kickstarts, so it should be available with the next media compose
for both F17 and rawhide:

http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=commit;h=ef24d01

This is how it currently looks after booting up the Desktop Live CD:
Loading Image...

"Install" starts the installer; clicking anywhere else within the black
notification box dismisses the notification.

[Pádraig Brady]

Post by Kalev Lember

Post by Jared K. Smith

Post by Bill Nottingham
I don't know how proposing and implementing a notification method of doing
the same isn't providing a solution, but you're welcome to your own cross.

Sorry Bill -- I'm confused here. Was a notification method actually
implemented? Was it enabled in F17.TC1? If so, I didn't see it. Or
was it implemented only for rawhide?

I finished up the work on the notification and landed it in
spin-kickstarts, so it should be available with the next media compose
http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=commit;h=ef24d01
http://kalev.fedorapeople.org/anaconda-notification.png
"Install" starts the installer; clicking anywhere else within the black
notification box dismisses the notification.

Excellent thanks!

A slight rewording suggestion, especially since "hard disks"
are being rapidly replaced.

"You are currently using an uninstalled live image.
You can try it out directly or install to your system."

cheers,
Pádraig.

[Jared K. Smith]

Post by Kalev Lember
I finished up the work on the notification and landed it in
spin-kickstarts, so it should be available with the next media compose

Cool, thanks.

Post by Kalev Lember
http://kalev.fedorapeople.org/anaconda-notification.png
"Install" starts the installer; clicking anywhere else within the black
notification box dismisses the notification.

I've got to be honest here -- I don't like the wording of the
notification. In particular, the section that says "If you want to
keep using Fedora" is ambiguous, as you could keep using Fedora from
the live media without installing it. Might I suggest the following
text instead:

You are currently running Fedora from live media. To install Fedora
to your hard drive, click the button below or the "Install to Hard
Drive" option in the activities menu.

--
Jared Smith

[Chris Murphy]

Post by Jared K. Smith
You are currently running Fedora from live media. To install Fedora
to your hard drive, click the button below or the "Install to Hard
Drive" option in the activities menu.

You are currently running Fedora from live media.
To install Fedora, click Install, or choose "Install to Hard Drive" in the Activities menu.

[Kalev Lember]

Post by Jared K. Smith
I've got to be honest here -- I don't like the wording of the
notification. /.../

Pádraig, Jared, Chris:

Thanks for the suggestions, I think these are definitely an improvement
over the original text. I'll reply with in line comments regarding
Chris's wording below.

I'm not a native speaker, so please correct me if you can.

Post by Jared K. Smith
You are currently running Fedora from live media.

This is nice, better than the original "an uninstalled live image" -- I
guess "uninstalled" is a term that developers are used to, but doesn't
make a lot of sense for end users.

Post by Jared K. Smith
To install Fedora, click Install, or choose "Install to Hard Drive" in the Activities menu.

I agree that it's a good idea to explain how to find the Anaconda icon.
(I'll have to nitpick here and say that the correct term is "Activities
overview", which has a list of favorite applications in the "Dash".)

Also note that this notification is going to be displayed in the
fallback mode as well, so if we go with explaining how to find the
Anaconda icon, we are likely to need two separate texts.

I don't think it's good style to spell out what the controls on the
notification do -- "To install Fedora, click Install". This sounds more
like an user's manual, not something we should be displaying as the most
prominent text that the user will see. In my opinion, the text should
talk about user's actions, but not how to use the controls in the dialog
box.


How about this as the main text:
You are currently running Fedora from live media.
If you are ready, you can install Fedora now, or choose "Install to Hard
Drive" in the Activities overview at any later time.

and this for the fallback mode:
You are currently running Fedora from live media.
If you are ready, you can install Fedora now, or choose "Install to Hard
Drive" in the System Tools menu at any later time.

[Pádraig Brady]

Post by Kalev Lember

Post by Jared K. Smith
I've got to be honest here -- I don't like the wording of the
notification. /.../

Thanks for the suggestions
You are currently running Fedora from live media.
If you are ready, you can install Fedora now, or choose "Install to Hard
Drive" in the Activities overview at any later time.

"If you are ready" is a bit redundant. How about.

You are currently running Fedora from live media.
You can install Fedora now, or choose "Install to Hard
Drive" in the Activities overview at any later time.

I'm happy with any of the subsequent suggestions,
so feel free to commit without further input from me anyway.

cheers,
Pádraig.

[Tom Callaway]

Post by Pádraig Brady
"If you are ready" is a bit redundant. How about.
You are currently running Fedora from live media.
You can install Fedora now, or choose "Install to Hard
Drive" in the Activities overview at any later time.

I agree, this is the simplest and cleanest text so far.

~tom

==
Fedora Project

[Chris Murphy]

Post by Tom Callaway

Post by Pádraig Brady
"If you are ready" is a bit redundant. How about.
You are currently running Fedora from live media.
You can install Fedora now, or choose "Install to Hard
Drive" in the Activities overview at any later time.

I agree, this is the simplest and cleanest text so far.

Yes, however given the context the word "may" should be used instead of "can". i.e. it is possible to install Fedora now.

I'd also suggest merely indefinite article "a" instead of "any". Simper for translation. And "any" doesn't contribute anything so I'd call it wordy.


Chris Murphy

[Cosimo Cecchi]

Hi all,

Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop
about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot
better than a notification.
Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went
ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1].
Screenshots can be found here [2] [3].
I showed this today to Matthias and other people in the RH office,
and the reception was good; people agree it's a good improvement over the
proposed notification for F17.
The text in the window comes from the result of this thread's discussion.

What do you think?

[1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome
[2] Loading Image...
[3] Loading Image...

[Kalev Lember]

Post by Cosimo Cecchi
Hi all,
Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop
about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot
better than a notification.
Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went
ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1].
[...]
What do you think?

This is really great: nice, clean, and professional-looking.

Thanks Cosimo!

[&quot;Germán A. Racca&quot;]

Post by Cosimo Cecchi
Hi all,
Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop
about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot
better than a notification.
Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went
ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1].
Screenshots can be found here [2] [3].
I showed this today to Matthias and other people in the RH office,
and the reception was good; people agree it's a good improvement over the
proposed notification for F17.
The text in the window comes from the result of this thread's discussion.
What do you think?
[1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome
[2] http://i.imgur.com/8vRcO.png
[3] http://i.imgur.com/gF0UJ.png

Loved it!

Thanks and congratulations :)

[Chris Lumens]

Post by Cosimo Cecchi
Yesterday night I noticed an IRC conversation on #fedora-desktop
about this, and suggested that an actual window would be a lot
better than a notification.
Kalev, Matthias and the people there agreed with me, so I went
ahead and wrote some code that does just that [1].
Screenshots can be found here [2] [3].
I showed this today to Matthias and other people in the RH office,
and the reception was good; people agree it's a good improvement over the
proposed notification for F17.
The text in the window comes from the result of this thread's discussion.
What do you think?
[1] https://github.com/cosimoc/fedora-welcome
[2] http://i.imgur.com/8vRcO.png
[3] http://i.imgur.com/gF0UJ.png

Yeah, this looks really well done. Shall we pull it into the anaconda
git tree for F17?

- Chris

[Kamil Paral]

Post by Colin Walters

Post by Kamil Paral
but they don't push on any other solutions.

A link from the http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora page directly
to
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Quick_Start_Guide/Fedora_Live_Desktop.html
?

I've spent 5 minutes looking for that direct link and I haven't found it. Maybe I'm just blind. There's a small link for full installation guide, but I see no link for quick start guide, and no link for the page you posted.

Something tells me that if I have never seen it, and couldn't find it even when looking for it, that 99% of new users won't see it as well.

Post by Colin Walters
But having an extension installed by default
has
a lot of technical ramifications; for example, it'll also get copied
to
the hard disk after you install. Also, while I'm not an artist or
designer, I think it looks pretty ugly...

No, it will not get installed, I described that before (maybe just on anaconda-devel).

I don't mean to haggle about it anymore. Just clearing up misconceptions.

[Colin Walters]

Post by Kamil Paral

Post by Colin Walters

Post by Kamil Paral
but they don't push on any other solutions.

A link from the http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora page directly
to
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Installation_Quick_Start_Guide/Fedora_Live_Desktop.html
?

I've spent 5 minutes looking for that direct link and I haven't found it.

That was my point - it doesn't exist yet as far as I know, but is an
option to improve the situation.

Post by Kamil Paral
No, it will not get installed, I described that before (maybe just on anaconda-devel).

OK.

[Kamil Paral]

Post by Chris Murphy
I'd also suggest merely indefinite article "a" instead of "any".
Simper for translation.

How are the translations going to be handled, Kalev? How do you get it into spin-kickstarts? Is there enough time to set up project in transifex (or whatever is Fedora using) and have this translated before F17 release?

[Kalev Lember]

Post by Kamil Paral
How are the translations going to be handled, Kalev? How do you get
it into spin-kickstarts?

Ideally, I think the welcome screen code should be in anaconda repo and
would be translated in there. But I haven't yet talked to the anaconda
people about this.

Post by Kamil Paral
Is there enough time to set up project in
transifex (or whatever is Fedora using) and have this translated
before F17 release?

Perhaps we can. Not sure if there's enough time for that.

What's the use case for translations? I'll note that there's no way to
select the language in the GDM login screen, so everyone using the
official media will see the untranslated welcome screen at least once,
before they manage to change the language in system settings.

Do we spin any localized live media? There are kickstart files for this
in spin-kickstarts repo, are they actually used?