Parallel Universe Theme

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?

Contextually, this makes no sense whatever. I could possibly guess at what
you meant, but why should I bother trying to translate gibberish.

Post by The Doctor
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.

Yet more tripe. Arfle, barfle, gloop is your answer.

Post by The Doctor
To me go with something new. What do you say?

I say you are a dick.

Understanding your messages is like trying to comprehend those pseudo-random
messages I receive as spam. Come to think of it, you are a spam-bot.

Post by The Doctor
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

The Doctor

2008-02-18 21:10:37 UTC

Post by Drone.

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?

Contextually, this makes no sense whatever. I could possibly guess at what
you meant, but why should I bother trying to translate gibberish.

Post by The Doctor
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.

Yet more tripe. Arfle, barfle, gloop is your answer.

Post by The Doctor
To me go with something new. What do you say?

I say you are a dick.
Understanding your messages is like trying to comprehend those pseudo-random
messages I receive as spam. Come to think of it, you are a spam-bot.

This is a no-spam zone Dron!

Top Poster

2008-02-18 21:12:46 UTC

Then don't spam
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

Post by Drone.

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?

Contextually, this makes no sense whatever. I could possibly guess at what
you meant, but why should I bother trying to translate gibberish.

Post by The Doctor
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.

Yet more tripe. Arfle, barfle, gloop is your answer.

Post by The Doctor
To me go with something new. What do you say?

I say you are a dick.
Understanding your messages is like trying to comprehend those pseudo-random
messages I receive as spam. Come to think of it, you are a spam-bot.

This is a no-spam zone Dron!
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

number six

2008-02-18 17:05:34 UTC

In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.

understablable: East Indian slang for rear entry.

The Master

2008-02-18 17:32:05 UTC

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

It's a lazy plot device... I want to make this type of story, but I
cannot figure out how to make it work... I'm having difficulty because of
this real life limitation... I know, parallel universe! China landed on
the moon, the Confederacy won, Japan nuked Washington DC to end WWII, you
name it!

Bazza

2008-02-18 20:04:01 UTC

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)

Baz

The Doctor

2008-02-18 21:11:39 UTC

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)
Baz

Inferno worked. As for the others, UGH!

Bazza

2008-02-19 00:44:50 UTC

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)
Baz

Inferno worked. As for the others, UGH!
--

Agreed. It was the first and by far the best in the DW universe.

Baz

The Doctor

2008-02-19 00:47:45 UTC

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)
Baz

Inferno worked. As for the others, UGH!
--

Agreed. It was the first and by far the best in the DW universe.
Baz

It should have been the only. The Cybusmen should have neer come
into the equation.

Top Poster

2008-02-19 00:48:46 UTC

Gibberish
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

It's a lazy plot device... I want to make this type of story, but I
cannot figure out how to make it work... I'm having difficulty

because

Post by The Master
of
this real life limitation... I know, parallel universe! China

landed

Post by The Master
on
the moon, the Confederacy won, Japan nuked Washington DC to end WWII, you
name it!

It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)
Baz

Inferno worked. As for the others, UGH!
--

Agreed. It was the first and by far the best in the DW universe.
Baz

It should have been the only. The Cybusmen should have neer come
into the equation.
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

Top Poster

2008-02-18 21:13:43 UTC

TWAT
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)
Baz

Inferno worked. As for the others, UGH!
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

solar penguin

2008-02-19 10:09:46 UTC

Post by The Doctor
Inferno worked. As for the others, UGH!

I disagree. Inferno is one the most boring (no pun intended) and
over-rated DW stories ever. And the parallel universe subplot is
nothing more than dull, clumsy padding. I get bored watching it,
waiting for it to be over so we can get back to the real plot in the
real DW universe instead of wasting my time with this fake nonsense week
after week..

OTOH compare that with the Cyberman two-parter. Unlike Inferno, it
_doesn't_ start with a whole episode in the real Whoniverse, so we know
right from the begining that this is the real plot even though it's set
in a fake universe. As a result, the story is better structured, and
we're prepared to put more emotional investment in the plot and
characters.

Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

Mike Morris

2008-02-19 10:40:09 UTC

Post by The Doctor
Inferno worked. As for the others, UGH!

I disagree. Inferno is one the most boring (no pun intended) and
over-rated DW stories ever. And the parallel universe subplot is
nothing more than dull, clumsy padding. I get bored watching it,
waiting for it to be over so we can get back to the real plot in the
real DW universe instead of wasting my time with this fake nonsense week
after week..
OTOH compare that with the Cyberman two-parter. Unlike Inferno, it
_doesn't_ start with a whole episode in the real Whoniverse, so we know
right from the begining that this is the real plot even though it's set
in a fake universe. As a result, the story is better structured, and
we're prepared to put more emotional investment in the plot and
characters.
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

I love Inferno - I think the point of the storey is that the parallel
characters are all warped reflections of the real thing. Plus we
actually get to see the horror unfolding on one level, without which
it would be hard to take the drilling-danger seriously.

Leaving that aside, I do feel that RotC gets a terrible bum rap from
fans. There's a number of things that are really impressive - like the
way we just know that the Brits appeased the Nazis during the war (at
least) without it ever being clearly said, or the way that the
Cybermen are reworked to reflect the modern-day obsession with
communication and techno-fetishism.

I wouldn't be too keen to see a return to the parallel universe plot-
device, but as a new-series one-off I felt it was reworked
marvellously well (if some Daleks were going to hide, in the void
between universes is exactly where they'd choose). I'm not fond of the
"infinity of choices, infinity of universes" idea, since it means that
there's a parallel universe where I had a Chinese instead of an Indian
last night, and I think there's a fairly limited mileage in the number
of good parallel universes you can have (actually, quote from Finn
Clark - "I've decided that I don't seem to like them [parallel
universes] in practice either. They're dull. Sit back and think... how
many interesting parallel universes can you name? There are two main
kinds: (a) fascists rule the world, (b) post-apocalypse setting where
the humans carry spears and have the intellectual level of a barbecued
hedgehog.")

Personally I'd quite like to go back to E-Space, but I think that's
just my own little quirk.

The Doctor

2008-02-19 12:29:18 UTC

Post by Mike Morris
Personally I'd quite like to go back to E-Space, but I think that's
just my own little quirk.

E-Space is just another galaxy. Still this is worthy!

Top Poster

2008-02-19 12:28:48 UTC

In a space play
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

In article

Post by Mike Morris
Personally I'd quite like to go back to E-Space, but I think that's
just my own little quirk.

E-Space is just another galaxy. Still this is worthy!
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

t***@yahoo.co.uk

2008-02-20 22:26:28 UTC

Inferno worked. As for the others, UGH!

I disagree. Inferno is one the most boring (no pun intended) and
over-rated DW stories ever. And the parallel universe subplot is
nothing more than dull, clumsy padding. I get bored watching it,
waiting for it to be over so we can get back to the real plot in the
real DW universe instead of wasting my time with this fake nonsense week
after week..
OTOH compare that with the Cyberman two-parter. Unlike Inferno, it
_doesn't_ start with a whole episode in the real Whoniverse, so we know
right from the begining that this is the real plot even though it's set
in a fake universe. As a result, the story is better structured, and
we're prepared to put more emotional investment in the plot and
characters.
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

I love Inferno - I think the point of the storey is that the parallel
characters are all warped reflections of the real thing. Plus we
actually get to see the horror unfolding on one level, without which
it would be hard to take the drilling-danger seriously.
Leaving that aside, I do feel that RotC gets a terrible bum rap from
fans. There's a number of things that are really impressive - like the
way we just know that the Brits appeased the Nazis during the war (at
least) without it ever being clearly said, or the way that the
Cybermen are reworked to reflect the modern-day obsession with
communication and techno-fetishism.
I wouldn't be too keen to see a return to the parallel universe plot-
device, but as a new-series one-off I felt it was reworked
marvellously well (if some Daleks were going to hide, in the void
between universes is exactly where they'd choose). I'm not fond of the
"infinity of choices, infinity of universes" idea, since it means that
there's a parallel universe where I had a Chinese instead of an Indian
last night, and I think there's a fairly limited mileage in the number
of good parallel universes you can have (actually, quote from Finn
Clark - "I've decided that I don't seem to like them [parallel
universes] in practice either. They're dull. Sit back and think... how
many interesting parallel universes can you name? There are two main
kinds: (a) fascists rule the world, (b) post-apocalypse setting where
the humans carry spears and have the intellectual level of a barbecued
hedgehog.")
Personally I'd quite like to go back to E-Space, but I think that's
just my own little quirk.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I big up Inferno. Probably Doctor Who's most frightening story because
the Earth is doomed, and in a way we're shown an alternative universe
where the rules have changed, where the Doctor can lose.

Rise of the Cybermen, I was fond of, but having listened to Spare
Parts, I can only see it as inferior and generic, and shows the leads
being really petty and unlikeable.

I know what you mean about the 'parrallel universe where I rode my
bike a few inches to the left' theory. I'd say though that Doctor Who
has so far avoided anything so banal. I don't think the parrallel
universe genre has been overused in Doctor Who, and certainly it's
avoided the fanwankish, insular mundaneity of differences that say the
Star Trek Next Generation epsiode Parrallels did, where Worf is
married to Troi, or Picard was killed by the Borg. Doctor Who uses the
gimmick for the big events where there really is a whole universe of
possibilities.

Still my favourite parrallel universe strand is Dalek Empire, where
the Daleks encounter a parrallel universe with a different species of
more benevolent Daleks with a female creator. Just like RotC, it kind
of redefines the Daleks as something that was inevitable, and that the
specific origins don't really matter.

Mike Morris

2008-02-20 22:58:22 UTC

Post by The Doctor
Inferno worked. As for the others, UGH!

I disagree. Inferno is one the most boring (no pun intended) and
over-rated DW stories ever. And the parallel universe subplot is
nothing more than dull, clumsy padding. I get bored watching it,
waiting for it to be over so we can get back to the real plot in the
real DW universe instead of wasting my time with this fake nonsense week
after week..
OTOH compare that with the Cyberman two-parter. Unlike Inferno, it
_doesn't_ start with a whole episode in the real Whoniverse, so we know
right from the begining that this is the real plot even though it's set
in a fake universe. As a result, the story is better structured, and
we're prepared to put more emotional investment in the plot and
characters.
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

I love Inferno - I think the point of the storey is that the parallel
characters are all warped reflections of the real thing. Plus we
actually get to see the horror unfolding on one level, without which
it would be hard to take the drilling-danger seriously.
Leaving that aside, I do feel that RotC gets a terrible bum rap from
fans. There's a number of things that are really impressive - like the
way we just know that the Brits appeased the Nazis during the war (at
least) without it ever being clearly said, or the way that the
Cybermen are reworked to reflect the modern-day obsession with
communication and techno-fetishism.
I wouldn't be too keen to see a return to the parallel universe plot-
device, but as a new-series one-off I felt it was reworked
marvellously well (if some Daleks were going to hide, in the void
between universes is exactly where they'd choose). I'm not fond of the
"infinity of choices, infinity of universes" idea, since it means that
there's a parallel universe where I had a Chinese instead of an Indian
last night, and I think there's a fairly limited mileage in the number
of good parallel universes you can have (actually, quote from Finn
Clark - "I've decided that I don't seem to like them [parallel
universes] in practice either. They're dull. Sit back and think... how
many interesting parallel universes can you name? There are two main
kinds: (a) fascists rule the world, (b) post-apocalypse setting where
the humans carry spears and have the intellectual level of a barbecued
hedgehog.")
Personally I'd quite like to go back to E-Space, but I think that's
just my own little quirk.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I've never got the thing about Spare Parts, I think it's really pretty
poor. It's a terribly meandering storyline, and all that "Wilst tha'
not stay fer another cuppa lass" stuff gets on my nerves and I never
found Mondas believable. RotC isn't short on SF cliches, of course,
but it establishes its parallel universe with extraordinary ease.
Also, whereas RotC actually has a relevant edge - it's about mobile
phone culture and our obsession with being connected - Spare Parts
seems to rely on collective stupidity and docility of an entire
society in order to make the Cybermen even happen.

Rose nipping off to tell her parallel mum and dad how to live their
lives is the standard self-involved S2 stuff, of course, but I quite
like the way the story makes clear that Mickey's had a much harder
life and questions Rose's attitude. Tentatively, but at least it's
there. It's plotting-by-numbers in many ways, but at least the plot
actually goes somewhere. Plus, it's got threat. I watched it with a
non-fan friend, and halfway through the Age of Steel he exclaimed
"Bloody hell, they make the Daleks look like *pets*."

Post by t***@yahoo.co.uk
I know what you mean about the 'parrallel universe where I rode my
bike a few inches to the left' theory. I'd say though that Doctor Who
has so far avoided anything so banal. I don't think the parrallel
universe genre has been overused in Doctor Who, and certainly it's
avoided the fanwankish, insular mundaneity of differences that say the
Star Trek Next Generation epsiode Parrallels did, where Worf is
married to Troi, or Picard was killed by the Borg. Doctor Who uses the
gimmick for the big events where there really is a whole universe of
possibilities.

I agree with all that, or at least all the bits I recognise...

Post by t***@yahoo.co.uk
Still my favourite parrallel universe strand is Dalek Empire, where
the Daleks encounter a parrallel universe with a different species of
more benevolent Daleks with a female creator. Just like RotC, it kind
of redefines the Daleks as something that was inevitable, and that the
specific origins don't really matter.

Must try Dalek Empire when I've cash to spare. I know you're a big
fan. I'm put off by Jubilee, actually, which annoyed me a bit - in
fact, the parallel universe thing was a big part of what annoyed me,
come to think of it.

t***@yahoo.co.uk

2008-02-20 23:59:49 UTC

Post by Mike Morris
I've never got the thing about Spare Parts, I think it's really pretty
poor. It's a terribly meandering storyline, and all that "Wilst tha'
not stay fer another cuppa lass" stuff gets on my nerves and I never
found Mondas believable. RotC isn't short on SF cliches, of course,
but it establishes its parallel universe with extraordinary ease.
Also, whereas RotC actually has a relevant edge - it's about mobile
phone culture and our obsession with being connected - Spare Parts
seems to rely on collective stupidity and docility of an entire
society in order to make the Cybermen even happen.

I quite liked the idea of how media bombardment keeps people docile
and distracted, and how horrors like the abduction of the homeless,
the people who've sunk below society's field of vision goes on under
everyone's noses. Though as a much more consequential story, I still
prefer Spare Parts. I think it's more effective in that the Doctor
loses there, so there's a lot more fallout.

Post by Mike Morris
Rose nipping off to tell her parallel mum and dad how to live their
lives is the standard self-involved S2 stuff, of course, but I quite
like the way the story makes clear that Mickey's had a much harder
life and questions Rose's attitude. Tentatively, but at least it's
there. It's plotting-by-numbers in many ways, but at least the plot
actually goes somewhere. Plus, it's got threat. I watched it with a
non-fan friend, and halfway through the Age of Steel he exclaimed
"Bloody hell, they make the Daleks look like *pets*."

In parts I empathised with Rose's desire to see her parents and her
err in coming across too familiarly to Jackie. But in other ways her
moaning moments were a bit indulgent and schmaltzy, and her jealousy
of the Doctor talking to the waitress Lucy made her seem unpleasantly
spiteful.

Mickey had grown on me by this point, and I agree that the tentative
critique of Rose's pettiness should have been more than a promising
red herring, since by the end of Series 2 she hadn't learned anything.

I agree with all that, or at least all the bits I recognise...

I used to be a major Trekkie in my teenage years, I've since
rehabilitated myself and now I strangely find it repellantly stuffy.
(apart from some lingering nostalgic fondness I still harbour for the
Trek film with the whales).

At the moment I'm only a big fan of the first two series of Dalek
Empire, but after that point I just found it rather aimless. I did
write a rather gushing review on Dalek Empire III, but after the high
died down, I realised it had gone nowhere and had cheated me of an
ending. I wasn't impressed with Dalek Empire 4 either. I thought that
one had really lost the plot.

Dalek Empire is a very expensive hobby. I'd recommend the first two
series but nothing after that, and I'd say it's probably best to wait
until Big Finish is doing a Summer sale on their website before
forking out. Otherwise each season costs 40 pounds to collect.

The series picks up plot threads from Genocide Machine and Apocalypse
Element, but they're not essential to follow. Infact I found Dalek
Empire II quite easy to follow without having heard the first series.
The first series ends in a cliffhanger (Rob Matthews and several fans
here were understandably very unhappy with that), but the second is
more conclusive, and really marks what should have been the natural
end of the series.

It doesn't really have ties to Jubilee, though there are thematic
similarities, such as stockholm syndrome and the power of propaganda,
and of course giving the Daleks a real psychological advantage over
humans. Similar gruesomeness as well. And of course it's got Gareth
Thomas playing a more ruthless Blake kind of character.

The Doctor

2008-02-21 00:06:36 UTC

My summary, Inferno, the claasic.

Cybusmen, you have got to be kidding!!

Top Poster

2008-02-21 00:17:42 UTC

GIBBERISH
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

Post by The Doctor
My summary, Inferno, the claasic.
Cybusmen, you have got to be kidding!!
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

L. Ross Raszewski

2008-02-21 17:01:30 UTC

Post by t***@yahoo.co.uk
I quite liked the idea of how media bombardment keeps people docile
and distracted, and how horrors like the abduction of the homeless,
the people who've sunk below society's field of vision goes on under
everyone's noses. Though as a much more consequential story, I still
prefer Spare Parts. I think it's more effective in that the Doctor
loses there, so there's a lot more fallout.

In general, I'd agree, except that in this case, we knew from the
start that the Doctor was going to fail -- and *so did he*. In fact,
he spends a fair bit of the story trying his hardest *not* to get
involved because he's *already made up his mind* that he's going to
fail.

I thinkthat really undercuts the effectiveness of the story. It may
have worked better had they somehow hidden the connectionto the
cybermen until the very end, say, by giving them a different name and
voice to imply that they're not cybermen at all but another race
suffering a similar fate until the final scene.

For the Doctor losing to have its impact, we need to believe he's got
a chance of *winning*.

t***@yahoo.co.uk

2008-02-21 23:02:07 UTC

Must try Dalek Empire when I've cash to spare. I know you're a big
fan.

Actually the Big Finish site has actually got Dalek Empire available
for download now, and a few other oldies too. That could save you a
lot of cash.

http://www.bigfinish.com/Downloads?Page=5

The Doctor

2008-02-21 23:02:59 UTC

Must try Dalek Empire when I've cash to spare. I know you're a big
fan.

Actually the Big Finish site has actually got Dalek Empire available
for download now, and a few other oldies too. That could save you a
lot of cash.
http://www.bigfinish.com/Downloads?Page=5

Manias for you!

t***@yahoo.co.uk

2008-02-21 23:04:47 UTC

Must try Dalek Empire when I've cash to spare. I know you're a big
fan.

Actually the Big Finish site has actually got Dalek Empire available
for download now, and a few other oldies too. That could save you a
lot of cash.
http://www.bigfinish.com/Downloads?Page=5

Manias for you!
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Ain't that the pot calling the kettle black.

Top Poster

2008-02-21 23:04:35 UTC

Manias did you steal her knickers of the line
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

In article

Must try Dalek Empire when I've cash to spare. I know you're a big
fan.

Actually the Big Finish site has actually got Dalek Empire available
for download now, and a few other oldies too. That could save you a
lot of cash.
http://www.bigfinish.com/Downloads?Page=5

Manias for you!
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

t***@yahoo.co.uk

2008-02-22 00:11:02 UTC

Must try Dalek Empire when I've cash to spare. I know you're a big
fan.

Actually the Big Finish site has actually got Dalek Empire available
for download now, and a few other oldies too. That could save you a
lot of cash.
http://www.bigfinish.com/Downloads?Page=5

Oh, I've looked at the downloads again and it turns out they are not
free downloads. They're just a pound cheaper to download than to buy.
Probably not worth bothering with then.

The Doctor

2008-02-19 12:28:11 UTC

Post by The Doctor
Inferno worked. As for the others, UGH!

I disagree. Inferno is one the most boring (no pun intended) and
over-rated DW stories ever. And the parallel universe subplot is
nothing more than dull, clumsy padding. I get bored watching it,
waiting for it to be over so we can get back to the real plot in the
real DW universe instead of wasting my time with this fake nonsense week
after week..
OTOH compare that with the Cyberman two-parter. Unlike Inferno, it
_doesn't_ start with a whole episode in the real Whoniverse, so we know
right from the begining that this is the real plot even though it's set
in a fake universe. As a result, the story is better structured, and
we're prepared to put more emotional investment in the plot and
characters.
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

We love to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

Top Poster

2008-02-19 12:28:18 UTC

Do you fancy him?
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

Post by The Doctor
Inferno worked. As for the others, UGH!

I disagree. Inferno is one the most boring (no pun intended) and
over-rated DW stories ever. And the parallel universe subplot is
nothing more than dull, clumsy padding. I get bored watching it,
waiting for it to be over so we can get back to the real plot in the
real DW universe instead of wasting my time with this fake nonsense week
after week..
OTOH compare that with the Cyberman two-parter. Unlike Inferno, it
_doesn't_ start with a whole episode in the real Whoniverse, so we know
right from the begining that this is the real plot even though it's set
in a fake universe. As a result, the story is better structured, and
we're prepared to put more emotional investment in the plot and
characters.
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

We love to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

Bazza

2008-02-20 00:31:01 UTC

"solar penguin" <***@googlemail.com> wrote in message news:fpe9td$pb6$***@registered.motzarella.org...
<snip>

Post by solar penguin
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

What? You prefer RTD's sad no personality Cybermen to the originals from the
likes of Tenth Planet and Tomb etc?

What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous statement. Please attempt to
justify it.

Baz

The Doctor

2008-02-20 03:59:29 UTC

Post by Bazza
<snip>

Post by solar penguin
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

What? You prefer RTD's sad no personality Cybermen to the originals from the
likes of Tenth Planet and Tomb etc?
What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous statement. Please attempt to
justify it.
Baz

We are dealing with Solar P!

solar penguin

2008-02-20 07:56:04 UTC

Post by Bazza
<snip>

Post by solar penguin
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the
real things...

What? You prefer RTD's sad no personality Cybermen to the originals
from the likes of Tenth Planet and Tomb etc?
What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous statement. Please
attempt to justify it.

I have done, many times, in the past. And I've no desire to keep
repeating myself again. But in brief, the original Cybermen just never
convinced me as believable bad guys.

Let's compare The Tenth Planet and The Invasion with AoG/Doomsday. In
all three stories, Cybermen manage to invade and occupy Earth for a few
hours. But there the similarites end. In The Tenth Planet, they
foolishly scupper their own plan by draining so much energy that Mondas
explodes.

In The Invasion, the Cybermen are defeated by human soldiers armed with
ordinary twentieth-century weapons and missiles. The Cybermen's
spaceships make no attempt to take any evasive action to avoid the
missile or shoot them down. Mind you, it's not surpising they can't
shoot them. They can't even hit a target the size of a planet without a
radio beam to guide their bomb! In fact, they would never have even
managed to occupy Earth for even those few hours without the help of
willing human traitors to aid them.

You can find similar flaws in all classic era Cybermen plans. (In one
story, they can actually be killed by nail varnish remover! No wonder
later scriptwriters changed their weakness to gold!)

Now look at AoG/Doomsday. They invaded Earth entirely on their own,
without needing human traitors to do all the work for them. They would
have succeeded to, since the _only_ thing that stopped them was the
unexpected arrival of Daleks, which are (quite rightly) the most
destructive power in the DW universe. No Cybermen, classic or modern,
could possibly stand a chance against them.

Post by The Doctor
We are dealing with Solar P!

True. I'm forever being told that my opinions on DW mean I'm not really
a true fan. And I always say, ok, in that case I'm not a true fan. I'd
rather stick to my own opinions and my own beliefs than blindly join the
consensus of what fans are supposed to believe.

The Doctor

2008-02-20 12:37:23 UTC

Post by Bazza
<snip>

Post by solar penguin
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the
real things...

What? You prefer RTD's sad no personality Cybermen to the originals
from the likes of Tenth Planet and Tomb etc?
What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous statement. Please
attempt to justify it.

I have done, many times, in the past. And I've no desire to keep
repeating myself again. But in brief, the original Cybermen just never
convinced me as believable bad guys.
Let's compare The Tenth Planet and The Invasion with AoG/Doomsday. In
all three stories, Cybermen manage to invade and occupy Earth for a few
hours. But there the similarites end. In The Tenth Planet, they
foolishly scupper their own plan by draining so much energy that Mondas
explodes.
In The Invasion, the Cybermen are defeated by human soldiers armed with
ordinary twentieth-century weapons and missiles. The Cybermen's
spaceships make no attempt to take any evasive action to avoid the
missile or shoot them down. Mind you, it's not surpising they can't
shoot them. They can't even hit a target the size of a planet without a
radio beam to guide their bomb! In fact, they would never have even
managed to occupy Earth for even those few hours without the help of
willing human traitors to aid them.
You can find similar flaws in all classic era Cybermen plans. (In one
story, they can actually be killed by nail varnish remover! No wonder
later scriptwriters changed their weakness to gold!)
Now look at AoG/Doomsday. They invaded Earth entirely on their own,
without needing human traitors to do all the work for them. They would
have succeeded to, since the _only_ thing that stopped them was the
unexpected arrival of Daleks, which are (quite rightly) the most
destructive power in the DW universe. No Cybermen, classic or modern,
could possibly stand a chance against them.

Post by The Doctor
We are dealing with Solar P!

You are the HAL of the DW groups!

Top Poster

2008-02-20 12:37:48 UTC

And you are the asshole
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

Post by Bazza
<snip>

Post by solar penguin
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the
real things...

What? You prefer RTD's sad no personality Cybermen to the originals
from the likes of Tenth Planet and Tomb etc?
What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous statement. Please
attempt to justify it.

I have done, many times, in the past. And I've no desire to keep
repeating myself again. But in brief, the original Cybermen just never
convinced me as believable bad guys.
Let's compare The Tenth Planet and The Invasion with AoG/Doomsday. In
all three stories, Cybermen manage to invade and occupy Earth for a few
hours. But there the similarites end. In The Tenth Planet, they
foolishly scupper their own plan by draining so much energy that Mondas
explodes.
In The Invasion, the Cybermen are defeated by human soldiers armed with
ordinary twentieth-century weapons and missiles. The Cybermen's
spaceships make no attempt to take any evasive action to avoid the
missile or shoot them down. Mind you, it's not surpising they can't
shoot them. They can't even hit a target the size of a planet without a
radio beam to guide their bomb! In fact, they would never have even
managed to occupy Earth for even those few hours without the help of
willing human traitors to aid them.
You can find similar flaws in all classic era Cybermen plans. (In one
story, they can actually be killed by nail varnish remover! No wonder
later scriptwriters changed their weakness to gold!)
Now look at AoG/Doomsday. They invaded Earth entirely on their own,
without needing human traitors to do all the work for them. They would
have succeeded to, since the _only_ thing that stopped them was the
unexpected arrival of Daleks, which are (quite rightly) the most
destructive power in the DW universe. No Cybermen, classic or modern,
could possibly stand a chance against them.

Post by The Doctor
We are dealing with Solar P!

You are the HAL of the DW groups!
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

Top Poster

2008-02-20 03:59:17 UTC

Who is we you your mother and Norman?
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

Post by Bazza
<snip>

Post by solar penguin
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

What? You prefer RTD's sad no personality Cybermen to the originals from the
likes of Tenth Planet and Tomb etc?
What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous statement. Please attempt to
justify it.
Baz

We are dealing with Solar P!
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

Mike Morris

2008-02-20 11:22:24 UTC

Post by Bazza
<snip>

Post by solar penguin
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

What? You prefer RTD's sad no personality Cybermen to the originals from the
likes of Tenth Planet and Tomb etc?
What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous statement. Please attempt to
justify it.

Umm... hate to bring this up, Baz, but criticising the emotionless
cyborgs for not having enough "personality" seems a touch perverse!

I'm with SP, frankly. I think the New Series Cybermen are actually
quite close to those we see in - say - Tomb and The Moonbase, except
without all the "oh we don't know how to kill them off so let's think
of something quick" weaknesses. And they've actually got more to say
for themselves than those in The Invasion, which are essentially
robots.

The Doctor

2008-02-20 12:37:56 UTC

Post by Bazza
<snip>

Post by solar penguin
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

What? You prefer RTD's sad no personality Cybermen to the originals from the
likes of Tenth Planet and Tomb etc?
What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous statement. Please attempt to
justify it.

Umm... hate to bring this up, Baz, but criticising the emotionless
cyborgs for not having enough "personality" seems a touch perverse!
I'm with SP, frankly. I think the New Series Cybermen are actually
quite close to those we see in - say - Tomb and The Moonbase, except
without all the "oh we don't know how to kill them off so let's think
of something quick" weaknesses. And they've actually got more to say
for themselves than those in The Invasion, which are essentially
robots.

You can always say it is a matter of tastes.

Top Poster

2008-02-20 12:38:16 UTC

Like you and Norman?
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

In article

Post by Bazza
<snip>

Post by solar penguin
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

What? You prefer RTD's sad no personality Cybermen to the originals from the
likes of Tenth Planet and Tomb etc?
What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous statement. Please attempt to
justify it.

Umm... hate to bring this up, Baz, but criticising the emotionless
cyborgs for not having enough "personality" seems a touch perverse!
I'm with SP, frankly. I think the New Series Cybermen are actually
quite close to those we see in - say - Tomb and The Moonbase, except
without all the "oh we don't know how to kill them off so let's think
of something quick" weaknesses. And they've actually got more to say
for themselves than those in The Invasion, which are essentially
robots.

You can always say it is a matter of tastes.
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

Stephen Wilson

2008-02-20 19:27:16 UTC

Post by Bazza
<snip>

Post by solar penguin
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

What? You prefer RTD's sad no personality Cybermen to the originals from
the likes of Tenth Planet and Tomb etc?
What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous statement. Please attempt to
justify it.

You've pretty much justified it yourself. Cybermen aren't *meant* to have
personalities.

The Doctor

2008-02-20 21:34:09 UTC

Post by Bazza
<snip>

Post by solar penguin
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

What? You prefer RTD's sad no personality Cybermen to the originals from
the likes of Tenth Planet and Tomb etc?
What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous statement. Please attempt to
justify it.

You've pretty much justified it yourself. Cybermen aren't *meant* to have
personalities.

Anyone recall Jackie Tyler cyberized?

Top Poster

2008-02-20 21:36:04 UTC

Does your mother still feed you bird seed for breakfast
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

Post by Bazza
<snip>

Post by solar penguin
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

What? You prefer RTD's sad no personality Cybermen to the originals from
the likes of Tenth Planet and Tomb etc?
What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous statement. Please attempt to
justify it.

You've pretty much justified it yourself. Cybermen aren't *meant* to have
personalities.

Anyone recall Jackie Tyler cyberized?
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

Bazza

2008-02-22 08:56:00 UTC

Post by Bazza
<snip>

Post by solar penguin
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

What? You prefer RTD's sad no personality Cybermen to the originals from
the likes of Tenth Planet and Tomb etc?
What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous statement. Please attempt to
justify it.

You've pretty much justified it yourself. Cybermen aren't *meant* to have
personalities.

Rubbish! Cybermen historically can show many emotions...it's only love that
appears to have been removed. The classic Cybermen showed anger and even
loathing many times. If I was confronted by any of the Cybermen over the
years I would personally find the ones from the Troughton era the most
scary. Not just visually - but because of the way they acted. I can hardly
understand a word the new ones are even saying.

Baz

The Face of Po

2008-02-22 12:50:13 UTC

I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.arts.drwho when

Post by Bazza
What? You prefer RTD's sad no personality Cybermen to the originals from
the likes of Tenth Planet and Tomb etc?
What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous statement. Please attempt to
justify it.

You've pretty much justified it yourself. Cybermen aren't *meant* to have
personalities.

Rubbish! Cybermen historically can show many emotions...it's only love that
appears to have been removed. The classic Cybermen showed anger and even
loathing many times. [...]

I think this was a mistake - they're meant to be emotionless, but as
the stories decide that they're evil instead of merely threatening, they
end up displaying anger (when the Doctor foils their plans), hatred (for
the Doctor and anyone else that might foil their plans) and satisfaction
(when the Doctor temporarily fails to foil their plans). They turn from
"cold and heartless" to sadistic.

The increased silver-tracksuityness of their costumes meant that a lot
more of these bursts of feeling came through in their body language,
even when the script was meant to keep them deadpan. I suspect that the
awkward rubber suits of "Tomb" made it difficult to emphasise the word
"Excellent" by shoving ones fist into the other hand, for example. And
this is why I think the colour cybermen stories are pants.

--
Remove caps to communicate more easily.

Happiness will prevail

Stephen Wilson

2008-02-22 17:55:22 UTC

Post by Bazza
<snip>

Post by solar penguin
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

What? You prefer RTD's sad no personality Cybermen to the originals from
the likes of Tenth Planet and Tomb etc?
What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous statement. Please attempt
to justify it.

You've pretty much justified it yourself. Cybermen aren't *meant* to have
personalities.

Rubbish! Cybermen historically can show many emotions...it's only love
that appears to have been removed. The classic Cybermen showed anger and
even loathing many times. If I was confronted by any of the Cybermen over
the years I would personally find the ones from the Troughton era the most
scary. Not just visually - but because of the way they acted. I can hardly
understand a word the new ones are even saying.

They were originally meant to be humanoids who implanted more and more
artificial parts into their bodies. They claimed to have done away with
human emotion. In the classic series their appearance and voices changed in
almost every story they appeared in. I found it very difficult to understand
them in the early stories, and by the latter stories they almost sounded
human. It is generally assumed they still have some organic parts, although
the 4th Doctor claimed that they were total machine creatures in Revenge.

Although I'm not a fan of the alternate universe idea of the new series
Cybermen, I do think their appearance and voices are successful.

The Doctor

2008-02-23 02:35:49 UTC

Post by Bazza
<snip>

Post by solar penguin
Plus it helps that the alternate Cybermen are much cooler than the real
things...

What? You prefer RTD's sad no personality Cybermen to the originals from
the likes of Tenth Planet and Tomb etc?
What planet are you on? That is a ridiculous statement. Please attempt
to justify it.

You've pretty much justified it yourself. Cybermen aren't *meant* to have
personalities.

Rubbish! Cybermen historically can show many emotions...it's only love
that appears to have been removed. The classic Cybermen showed anger and
even loathing many times. If I was confronted by any of the Cybermen over
the years I would personally find the ones from the Troughton era the most
scary. Not just visually - but because of the way they acted. I can hardly
understand a word the new ones are even saying.

They were originally meant to be humanoids who implanted more and more
artificial parts into their bodies. They claimed to have done away with
human emotion. In the classic series their appearance and voices changed in
almost every story they appeared in. I found it very difficult to understand
them in the early stories, and by the latter stories they almost sounded
human. It is generally assumed they still have some organic parts, although
the 4th Doctor claimed that they were total machine creatures in Revenge.
Although I'm not a fan of the alternate universe idea of the new series
Cybermen, I do think their appearance and voices are successful.

I prefer the original. Bring them back. Full restoration of the
Whoniverse.

The Master

2008-02-18 21:17:00 UTC

Post by Bazza
It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)

WWJTKD? What would James T. Kirk do? :)

The Doctor

2008-02-18 21:38:07 UTC

Post by Bazza
It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)

WWJTKD? What would James T. Kirk do? :)

Violate temporal directives.

Top Poster

2008-02-18 21:39:39 UTC

SELL CORN FLAKES
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

Post by Bazza
It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)

WWJTKD? What would James T. Kirk do? :)

Violate temporal directives.
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

john smith

2008-02-20 15:23:21 UTC

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

It's a lazy plot device... I want to make this type of story, but I
cannot figure out how to make it work... I'm having difficulty because
of this real life limitation... I know, parallel universe! China landed
on the moon, the Confederacy won, Japan nuked Washington DC to end WWII,
you name it!

It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)
Baz

Who do so many SF fans always have to reference "Star Trek" (and "Doctor
Who") as the fount of all story ideas? That clearly isn't the case...

The parallel universe/alternative reality trope has been done to death much
earlier by many, many science fiction writers (Olaft Stapledon, Poul
Anderson, L. Sprague de Camp, Philip K. Dick, etc., etc.). In fact, you
could trace the pedigree of that idea back to scholarly 'what-ifs' like John
Collings Squire's "If It Had Happened Otherwise" (1931), a collection of
essays with titles like 'If Napoleon Had Escaped to America' and 'If Booth
Had Missed Lincoln'...

"Star Trek" is FAR from being the fount of originality...

The Doctor

2008-02-20 21:33:40 UTC

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

It's a lazy plot device... I want to make this type of story, but I
cannot figure out how to make it work... I'm having difficulty because
of this real life limitation... I know, parallel universe! China landed
on the moon, the Confederacy won, Japan nuked Washington DC to end WWII,
you name it!

It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)
Baz

Who do so many SF fans always have to reference "Star Trek" (and "Doctor
Who") as the fount of all story ideas? That clearly isn't the case...
The parallel universe/alternative reality trope has been done to death much
earlier by many, many science fiction writers (Olaft Stapledon, Poul
Anderson, L. Sprague de Camp, Philip K. Dick, etc., etc.). In fact, you
could trace the pedigree of that idea back to scholarly 'what-ifs' like John
Collings Squire's "If It Had Happened Otherwise" (1931), a collection of
essays with titles like 'If Napoleon Had Escaped to America' and 'If Booth
Had Missed Lincoln'...
"Star Trek" is FAR from being the fount of originality...

Still is it a theme too much?

Top Poster

2008-02-20 21:33:57 UTC

Ask your mother
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

It's a lazy plot device... I want to make this type of story, but I
cannot figure out how to make it work... I'm having difficulty because
of this real life limitation... I know, parallel universe! China landed
on the moon, the Confederacy won, Japan nuked Washington DC to end WWII,
you name it!

It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)
Baz

Who do so many SF fans always have to reference "Star Trek" (and "Doctor
Who") as the fount of all story ideas? That clearly isn't the case...
The parallel universe/alternative reality trope has been done to death much
earlier by many, many science fiction writers (Olaft Stapledon, Poul
Anderson, L. Sprague de Camp, Philip K. Dick, etc., etc.). In fact, you
could trace the pedigree of that idea back to scholarly 'what-ifs' like John
Collings Squire's "If It Had Happened Otherwise" (1931), a collection of
essays with titles like 'If Napoleon Had Escaped to America' and 'If Booth
Had Missed Lincoln'...
"Star Trek" is FAR from being the fount of originality...

Still is it a theme too much?
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

john smith

2008-02-21 01:19:23 UTC

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

It's a lazy plot device... I want to make this type of story, but I
cannot figure out how to make it work... I'm having difficulty because
of this real life limitation... I know, parallel universe! China landed
on the moon, the Confederacy won, Japan nuked Washington DC to end WWII,
you name it!

It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)
Baz

Who do so many SF fans always have to reference "Star Trek" (and "Doctor
Who") as the fount of all story ideas? That clearly isn't the case...
The parallel universe/alternative reality trope has been done to death much
earlier by many, many science fiction writers (Olaft Stapledon, Poul
Anderson, L. Sprague de Camp, Philip K. Dick, etc., etc.). In fact, you
could trace the pedigree of that idea back to scholarly 'what-ifs' like John
Collings Squire's "If It Had Happened Otherwise" (1931), a collection of
essays with titles like 'If Napoleon Had Escaped to America' and 'If Booth
Had Missed Lincoln'...
"Star Trek" is FAR from being the fount of originality...

Still is it a theme too much?

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

The Doctor

2008-02-21 01:26:07 UTC

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

It's a lazy plot device... I want to make this type of story, but I
cannot figure out how to make it work... I'm having difficulty because
of this real life limitation... I know, parallel universe! China landed
on the moon, the Confederacy won, Japan nuked Washington DC to end WWII,
you name it!

It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)
Baz

Who do so many SF fans always have to reference "Star Trek" (and "Doctor
Who") as the fount of all story ideas? That clearly isn't the case...
The parallel universe/alternative reality trope has been done to death much
earlier by many, many science fiction writers (Olaft Stapledon, Poul
Anderson, L. Sprague de Camp, Philip K. Dick, etc., etc.). In fact, you
could trace the pedigree of that idea back to scholarly 'what-ifs' like John
Collings Squire's "If It Had Happened Otherwise" (1931), a collection of
essays with titles like 'If Napoleon Had Escaped to America' and 'If Booth
Had Missed Lincoln'...
"Star Trek" is FAR from being the fount of originality...

Still is it a theme too much?

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Just what it means, is this getting overplayed?

Top Poster

2008-02-21 01:27:19 UTC

You don't have a clue
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

It's a lazy plot device... I want to make this type of story, but I
cannot figure out how to make it work... I'm having difficulty because
of this real life limitation... I know, parallel universe! China landed
on the moon, the Confederacy won, Japan nuked Washington DC to end WWII,
you name it!

It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers

ripped

Post by Bazza
the
idea :)
Baz

Who do so many SF fans always have to reference "Star Trek" (and "Doctor
Who") as the fount of all story ideas? That clearly isn't the case...
The parallel universe/alternative reality trope has been done to death much
earlier by many, many science fiction writers (Olaft Stapledon, Poul
Anderson, L. Sprague de Camp, Philip K. Dick, etc., etc.). In fact, you
could trace the pedigree of that idea back to scholarly 'what-ifs' like John
Collings Squire's "If It Had Happened Otherwise" (1931), a collection of
essays with titles like 'If Napoleon Had Escaped to America' and 'If Booth
Had Missed Lincoln'...
"Star Trek" is FAR from being the fount of originality...

Still is it a theme too much?

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Just what it means, is this getting overplayed?
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

t***@yahoo.co.uk

2008-02-20 22:03:52 UTC

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

It's a lazy plot device... I want to make this type of story, but I
cannot figure out how to make it work... I'm having difficulty because
of this real life limitation... I know, parallel universe! China landed
on the moon, the Confederacy won, Japan nuked Washington DC to end WWII,
you name it!

It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)
Baz

Who do so many SF fans always have to reference "Star Trek" (and "Doctor
Who") as the fount of all story ideas? That clearly isn't the case...
The parallel universe/alternative reality trope has been done to death much
earlier by many, many science fiction writers (Olaft Stapledon, Poul
Anderson, L. Sprague de Camp, Philip K. Dick, etc., etc.). In fact, you
could trace the pedigree of that idea back to scholarly 'what-ifs' like John
Collings Squire's "If It Had Happened Otherwise" (1931), a collection of
essays with titles like 'If Napoleon Had Escaped to America' and 'If Booth
Had Missed Lincoln'...
"Star Trek" is FAR from being the fount of originality...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

The Doctor

2008-02-20 22:04:21 UTC

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

It's a lazy plot device... I want to make this type of story, but I
cannot figure out how to make it work... I'm having difficulty because
of this real life limitation... I know, parallel universe! China landed
on the moon, the Confederacy won, Japan nuked Washington DC to end WWII,
you name it!

It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)
Baz

Who do so many SF fans always have to reference "Star Trek" (and "Doctor
Who") as the fount of all story ideas? That clearly isn't the case...
The parallel universe/alternative reality trope has been done to death much
earlier by many, many science fiction writers (Olaft Stapledon, Poul
Anderson, L. Sprague de Camp, Philip K. Dick, etc., etc.). In fact, you
could trace the pedigree of that idea back to scholarly 'what-ifs' like John
Collings Squire's "If It Had Happened Otherwise" (1931), a collection of
essays with titles like 'If Napoleon Had Escaped to America' and 'If Booth
Had Missed Lincoln'...
"Star Trek" is FAR from being the fount of originality...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

Sing it!

Top Poster

2008-02-21 00:17:01 UTC

Only you can sing in gibberish
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

In article

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

It's a lazy plot device... I want to make this type of story, but I
cannot figure out how to make it work... I'm having difficulty

because

of this real life limitation... I know, parallel universe! China

landed

on the moon, the Confederacy won, Japan nuked Washington DC to end WWII,
you name it!

It was done to death in Star Trek way before Doctor Who writers ripped the
idea :)
Baz

Who do so many SF fans always have to reference "Star Trek" (and "Doctor
Who") as the fount of all story ideas? That clearly isn't the case...
The parallel universe/alternative reality trope has been done to death much
earlier by many, many science fiction writers (Olaft Stapledon, Poul
Anderson, L. Sprague de Camp, Philip K. Dick, etc., etc.). In fact, you
could trace the pedigree of that idea back to scholarly 'what-ifs' like John
Collings Squire's "If It Had Happened Otherwise" (1931), a collection of
essays with titles like 'If Napoleon Had Escaped to America' and 'If Booth
Had Missed Lincoln'...
"Star Trek" is FAR from being the fount of originality...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

Sing it!
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

Dave Cross

2008-02-21 06:58:27 UTC

In article

Post by t***@yahoo.co.uk
You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

Sing it!

How do you sing a film?

Dave...

Mike Morris

2008-02-21 08:42:53 UTC

In article

Post by t***@yahoo.co.uk
You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

Sing it!

How do you sing a film?
Dave...

Wasn't it a song by Black, or Blue, or some other band named after a
colour?

Look at me standing
Here on my own again
Look straight in the sunshine
No need to run, or hide,
It's a wonderful, wonderful life...

Hmm. You can't really sing on a NG either.

The Doctor

2008-02-22 01:09:42 UTC

In article

Post by t***@yahoo.co.uk
You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

Sing it!

How do you sing a film?
Dave...

Wasn't it a song by Black, or Blue, or some other band named after a
colour?
Look at me standing
Here on my own again
Look straight in the sunshine
No need to run, or hide,
It's a wonderful, wonderful life...
Hmm. You can't really sing on a NG either.

That is why it sounds familiar.

Top Poster

2008-02-22 01:10:41 UTC

Getting your count up
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

In article

In article

Post by t***@yahoo.co.uk
You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

Sing it!

How do you sing a film?
Dave...

Wasn't it a song by Black, or Blue, or some other band named after a
colour?
Look at me standing
Here on my own again
Look straight in the sunshine
No need to run, or hide,
It's a wonderful, wonderful life...
Hmm. You can't really sing on a NG either.

That is why it sounds familiar.
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

john smith

2008-02-22 01:35:56 UTC

In article

In article

Post by t***@yahoo.co.uk
You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

Sing it!

How do you sing a film?
Dave...

Wasn't it a song by Black, or Blue, or some other band named after a
colour?
Look at me standing
Here on my own again
Look straight in the sunshine
No need to run, or hide,
It's a wonderful, wonderful life...
Hmm. You can't really sing on a NG either.

That is why it sounds familiar.
--

Jesus fucking Christ! You've never heard of the film "It's A Wonderful
Life"? What a sheltered fucking life you must lead. Or would watching it
be against your cultish little religion?

The Doctor

2008-02-22 13:45:04 UTC

In article

In article

Post by t***@yahoo.co.uk
You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

Sing it!

How do you sing a film?
Dave...

Wasn't it a song by Black, or Blue, or some other band named after a
colour?
Look at me standing
Here on my own again
Look straight in the sunshine
No need to run, or hide,
It's a wonderful, wonderful life...
Hmm. You can't really sing on a NG either.

That is why it sounds familiar.
--

Jesus ing Christ! You've never heard of the film "It's A Wonderful
Life"? What a sheltered ing life you must lead. Or would watching it
be against your cultish little religion?

Oi! No need to swear.

Top Poster

2008-02-22 13:48:33 UTC

Then don't call your mother a stupid cunt all the time
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

In article

In article

Post by t***@yahoo.co.uk
You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

Sing it!

How do you sing a film?
Dave...

Wasn't it a song by Black, or Blue, or some other band named after a
colour?
Look at me standing
Here on my own again
Look straight in the sunshine
No need to run, or hide,
It's a wonderful, wonderful life...
Hmm. You can't really sing on a NG either.

That is why it sounds familiar.
--

Jesus ing Christ! You've never heard of the film "It's A Wonderful
Life"? What a sheltered ing life you must lead. Or would watching it
be against your cultish little religion?

Oi! No need to swear.
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

john smith

2008-02-22 20:33:07 UTC

In article

In article

Post by t***@yahoo.co.uk
You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

Sing it!

How do you sing a film?
Dave...

Wasn't it a song by Black, or Blue, or some other band named after a
colour?
Look at me standing
Here on my own again
Look straight in the sunshine
No need to run, or hide,
It's a wonderful, wonderful life...
Hmm. You can't really sing on a NG either.

That is why it sounds familiar.
--

Jesus ing Christ! You've never heard of the film "It's A Wonderful
Life"? What a sheltered ing life you must lead. Or would watching it
be against your cultish little religion?

Oi! No need to swear.
--

No need to censor, you idiot. I swore for effect. Why do you censor posts?

The Doctor

2008-02-23 02:38:40 UTC

In article

In article

Post by t***@yahoo.co.uk
You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

Sing it!

How do you sing a film?
Dave...

Wasn't it a song by Black, or Blue, or some other band named after a
colour?
Look at me standing
Here on my own again
Look straight in the sunshine
No need to run, or hide,
It's a wonderful, wonderful life...
Hmm. You can't really sing on a NG either.

That is why it sounds familiar.
--

Jesus ing Christ! You've never heard of the film "It's A Wonderful
Life"? What a sheltered ing life you must lead. Or would watching it
be against your cultish little religion?

Oi! No need to swear.
--

No need to censor, you idiot. I swore for effect. Why do you censor posts?

Have some morals and values you tempermental ...

The Doctor

2008-02-22 00:42:21 UTC

In article

Post by t***@yahoo.co.uk
You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

Sing it!

How do you sing a film?
Dave...

Musically.

Top Poster

2008-02-22 00:42:43 UTC

Go suck Norman
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

In article

Post by t***@yahoo.co.uk
You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

Sing it!

How do you sing a film?
Dave...

Musically.
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

Stephen Wilson

2008-02-20 22:42:12 UTC

Post by john smith
Who do so many SF fans always have to reference "Star Trek" (and "Doctor
Who") as the fount of all story ideas? That clearly isn't the case...
The parallel universe/alternative reality trope has been done to death much
earlier by many, many science fiction writers (Olaft Stapledon, Poul
Anderson, L. Sprague de Camp, Philip K. Dick, etc., etc.). In fact, you
could trace the pedigree of that idea back to scholarly 'what-ifs' like John
Collings Squire's "If It Had Happened Otherwise" (1931), a collection of
essays with titles like 'If Napoleon Had Escaped to America' and 'If Booth
Had Missed Lincoln'...
"Star Trek" is FAR from being the fount of originality...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine of the
story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which had
different stars and talking animals.

john smith

2008-02-21 01:20:36 UTC

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine of the
story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which had
different stars and talking animals.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of parallel realities.

Stephen Wilson

2008-02-21 17:38:41 UTC

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine of the
story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which had
different stars and talking animals.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of parallel realities.

How d'you work that out? You don't see many talking animals on this version
of Earth...

Monsieur Tabernac

2008-02-21 18:05:52 UTC

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 17:38:41 GMT, "Stephen Wilson"

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine of the
story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which had
different stars and talking animals.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of parallel realities.

How d'you work that out? You don't see many talking animals on this version
of Earth...

You don't!??! Oh crap.. I need to up the medication.

Young Blandford

2008-02-21 23:31:39 UTC

On Feb 21, 5:38 pm, "Stephen Wilson"

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine of the
story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which had
different stars and talking animals.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of parallel realities.

How d'you work that out? You don't see many talking animals on this version
of Earth...

There was that dog on "That's Life" that said "Sausages"

The Doctor

2008-02-22 00:41:38 UTC

Post by Young Blandford
On Feb 21, 5:38 pm, "Stephen Wilson"

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine of the
story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which had
different stars and talking animals.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of parallel realities.

How d'you work that out? You don't see many talking animals on this version
of Earth...

There was that dog on "That's Life" that said "Sausages"

What about Spitting Image?

Top Poster

2008-02-22 00:41:47 UTC

What about it
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

In article

Post by Young Blandford
On Feb 21, 5:38 pm, "Stephen Wilson"

death

Post by john smith
much
earlier by many, many science fiction writers (Olaft Stapledon, Poul
Anderson, L. Sprague de Camp, Philip K. Dick, etc., etc.). In fact, you
could trace the pedigree of that idea back to scholarly 'what-ifs'

Post by john smith
John
Collings Squire's "If It Had Happened Otherwise" (1931), a

collection

Post by john smith
of
essays with titles like 'If Napoleon Had Escaped to America' and

'If

Post by john smith
Booth
Had Missed Lincoln'...
"Star Trek" is FAR from being the fount of originality...- Hide

quoted

Post by john smith
text -
- Show quoted text -

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine of the
story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which had
different stars and talking animals.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of parallel realities.

How d'you work that out? You don't see many talking animals on this version
of Earth...

There was that dog on "That's Life" that said "Sausages"

What about Spitting Image?
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

john smith

2008-02-22 01:33:06 UTC

Post by Young Blandford
On Feb 21, 5:38 pm, "Stephen Wilson"

Post by john smith
Who do so many SF fans always have to reference "Star Trek" (and "Doctor
Who") as the fount of all story ideas? That clearly isn't the case...
The parallel universe/alternative reality trope has been done to
death
much
earlier by many, many science fiction writers (Olaft Stapledon, Poul
Anderson, L. Sprague de Camp, Philip K. Dick, etc., etc.). In fact, you
could trace the pedigree of that idea back to scholarly 'what-ifs'
like
John
Collings Squire's "If It Had Happened Otherwise" (1931), a
collection
of
essays with titles like 'If Napoleon Had Escaped to America' and 'If Booth
Had Missed Lincoln'...
"Star Trek" is FAR from being the fount of originality...- Hide
quoted
text -
- Show quoted text -

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine of the
story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which had
different stars and talking animals.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of parallel realities.

How d'you work that out? You don't see many talking animals on this version
of Earth...

There was that dog on "That's Life" that said "Sausages"

Hahaha!

Snorts booze over screen!

The Doctor

2008-02-22 13:44:12 UTC

Post by Young Blandford
On Feb 21, 5:38 pm, "Stephen Wilson"

Post by john smith
Who do so many SF fans always have to reference "Star Trek" (and "Doctor
Who") as the fount of all story ideas? That clearly isn't the case...
The parallel universe/alternative reality trope has been done to
death
much
earlier by many, many science fiction writers (Olaft Stapledon, Poul
Anderson, L. Sprague de Camp, Philip K. Dick, etc., etc.). In fact, you
could trace the pedigree of that idea back to scholarly 'what-ifs'
like
John
Collings Squire's "If It Had Happened Otherwise" (1931), a
collection
of
essays with titles like 'If Napoleon Had Escaped to America' and 'If Booth
Had Missed Lincoln'...
"Star Trek" is FAR from being the fount of originality...- Hide
quoted
text -
- Show quoted text -

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine of the
story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which had
different stars and talking animals.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of parallel realities.

How d'you work that out? You don't see many talking animals on this version
of Earth...

There was that dog on "That's Life" that said "Sausages"

Hahaha!
Snorts booze over screen!

Do it at the pub!

Top Poster

2008-02-22 13:47:02 UTC

What do you and Norman do at the back of the pub?
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

Post by Young Blandford
On Feb 21, 5:38 pm, "Stephen Wilson"

fact,

Post by john smith
you
could trace the pedigree of that idea back to scholarly 'what-ifs'
like
John
Collings Squire's "If It Had Happened Otherwise" (1931), a
collection
of
essays with titles like 'If Napoleon Had Escaped to America' and

'If

Post by john smith
Booth
Had Missed Lincoln'...
"Star Trek" is FAR from being the fount of originality...- Hide
quoted
text -
- Show quoted text -

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine

Post by Stephen Wilson
the
story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which had
different stars and talking animals.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of parallel realities.

How d'you work that out? You don't see many talking animals on this version
of Earth...

There was that dog on "That's Life" that said "Sausages"

Hahaha!
Snorts booze over screen!

Do it at the pub!
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

john smith

2008-02-22 20:30:04 UTC

Post by Young Blandford
On Feb 21, 5:38 pm, "Stephen Wilson"

Post by john smith
Who do so many SF fans always have to reference "Star Trek" (and "Doctor
Who") as the fount of all story ideas? That clearly isn't the case...
The parallel universe/alternative reality trope has been done to
death
much
earlier by many, many science fiction writers (Olaft Stapledon, Poul
Anderson, L. Sprague de Camp, Philip K. Dick, etc., etc.). In
fact,
you
could trace the pedigree of that idea back to scholarly 'what-ifs'
like
John
Collings Squire's "If It Had Happened Otherwise" (1931), a
collection
of
essays with titles like 'If Napoleon Had Escaped to America' and
'If
Booth
Had Missed Lincoln'...
"Star Trek" is FAR from being the fount of originality...- Hide
quoted
text -
- Show quoted text -

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine
of
the
story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which had
different stars and talking animals.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of parallel realities.

How d'you work that out? You don't see many talking animals on this version
of Earth...

There was that dog on "That's Life" that said "Sausages"

Hahaha!
Snorts booze over screen!

Do it at the pub!
--

Yeah, like I'm going to lug my PC to the pub, you fuckwit...

john smith

2008-02-22 01:28:00 UTC

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine of
the story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which
had different stars and talking animals.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of parallel realities.

How d'you work that out? You don't see many talking animals on this
version of Earth...

"The Blazing World" is a work of pure fantasy. In no way can it be called a
parallel universe story. Otherwise why not stick in all the Greek myths -
Moore's "Utopia" - every fairy tale and folk tale ever written? I'm suppose
what I'm talking about here are genre distinctions and their tropes...

By the way, Alan Moore's latest incarnation of "The League of Extraordinary
Gentlemen" - the rather splendid "Black Dossier" - has a great final act set
in the Blazing World illustrated in glorious 3D. You even get some groovy
red/green 3D glasses with the book!

Stephen Wilson

2008-02-22 17:44:09 UTC

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine of
the story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which
had different stars and talking animals.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of parallel realities.

How d'you work that out? You don't see many talking animals on this
version of Earth...

I haven't read the book, so I'm not sure whether it's meant to be set on an
entirely different world, or an alternate version of our world. I've read
different reviews that don't entirely agree on that point.

Post by john smith
By the way, Alan Moore's latest incarnation of "The League of
Extraordinary Gentlemen" - the rather splendid "Black Dossier" - has a
great final act set in the Blazing World illustrated in glorious 3D. You
even get some groovy red/green 3D glasses with the book!

I saw the film of The League recently. Apparently the American character
never appeared in the comic book (which I haven't read yet).

john smith

2008-02-22 20:33:07 UTC

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine of
the story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which
had different stars and talking animals.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of parallel realities.

How d'you work that out? You don't see many talking animals on this
version of Earth...

I haven't read the book,

No surprise there. You do over-rely on Google somewhat, don't you?

so I'm not sure whether it's meant to be set on

Post by Stephen Wilson
an entirely different world, or an alternate version of our world. I've
read different reviews that don't entirely agree on that point.

There's nothing to debate. It's a totally different fantastical world.

I saw the film of The League recently.

You have my sympathies...

Post by Stephen Wilson
Apparently the American character

You mean Tom Sawyer?

Post by Stephen Wilson
never appeared in the comic book (which I haven't read yet).

Not graphic novel? ;-)

No, the whole point of "LoEG" is that it's a totally British proto-superhero
team (excepting Captain Nemo). The Yanks added Tom Sawyer to make it more
palatable to the US. The film is a total travesty of the comic...

Stephen Wilson

2008-02-23 01:24:29 UTC

Post by john smith
"The Blazing World" is a work of pure fantasy. In no way can it be
called a parallel universe story. Otherwise why not stick in all the
Greek myths - Moore's "Utopia" - every fairy tale and folk tale ever
written? I'm suppose what I'm talking about here are genre distinctions
and their tropes...

I haven't read the book,

No surprise there. You do over-rely on Google somewhat, don't you?

You say that like it's a bad thing. In the days before Google, I relied on
the local library, or the "facts" that friends and colleagues relayed. I
don;t claim to be an expert on all things. I don't claim to be well read.
But I am able to research things using the tools at my disposal. I am also
willing to be corrected on things by people who know more on a subject than
myself.

Post by john smith
so I'm not sure whether it's meant to be set on

Post by Stephen Wilson
an entirely different world, or an alternate version of our world. I've
read different reviews that don't entirely agree on that point.

There's nothing to debate. It's a totally different fantastical world.

I'll take your word for it, having not read the book for myself. I freely
admit that my main source came from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fiction_employing_parallel_universes

Post by john smith
By the way, Alan Moore's latest incarnation of "The League of
Extraordinary Gentlemen" - the rather splendid "Black Dossier" - has a
great final act set in the Blazing World illustrated in glorious 3D.
You
even get some groovy red/green 3D glasses with the book!

I saw the film of The League recently.

You have my sympathies...

Cheers.

Post by Stephen Wilson
Apparently the American character

You mean Tom Sawyer?

That's the one.

Post by Stephen Wilson
never appeared in the comic book (which I haven't read yet).

Not graphic novel? ;-)

Comic book. Graphic novel. Same difference :P

john smith

2008-02-23 01:56:21 UTC

I haven't read the book,

No surprise there. You do over-rely on Google somewhat, don't you?

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Haha! Nice one! I do, don't I? Am a bit too pissed to debate this now but
later, yeah?

(I do look forward to your responses, though, otherwise why else post on
newsgroups? Hope you had a good one, coz I did!)

In the days before Google, I relied on

Post by Stephen Wilson
the local library, or the "facts" that friends and colleagues relayed. I
don;t claim to be an expert on all things. I don't claim to be well read.
But I am able to research things using the tools at my disposal. I am also
willing to be corrected on things by people who know more on a subject
than myself.

Post by john smith
so I'm not sure whether it's meant to be set on

Post by Stephen Wilson
an entirely different world, or an alternate version of our world. I've
read different reviews that don't entirely agree on that point.

There's nothing to debate. It's a totally different fantastical world.

I'll take your word for it, having not read the book for myself. I freely
admit that my main source came from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fiction_employing_parallel_universes

Post by john smith
By the way, Alan Moore's latest incarnation of "The League of
Extraordinary Gentlemen" - the rather splendid "Black Dossier" - has a
great final act set in the Blazing World illustrated in glorious 3D.
You
even get some groovy red/green 3D glasses with the book!

I saw the film of The League recently.

You have my sympathies...

Cheers.

Post by Stephen Wilson
Apparently the American character

You mean Tom Sawyer?

That's the one.

Post by Stephen Wilson
never appeared in the comic book (which I haven't read yet).

Not graphic novel? ;-)

Comic book. Graphic novel. Same difference :P

John Hall

2008-02-22 20:33:40 UTC

I saw the film of The League recently. Apparently the American character
never appeared in the comic book (which I haven't read yet).

The film was something of a travesty of the first League book. All three
of the books are well worth reading IMO.

--
John Hall
"Banking was conceived in iniquity and born in sin"
attributed to Sir Josiah Stamp,
a former director of the Bank of England

The Doctor

2008-02-23 02:38:03 UTC

Post by John Hall

I saw the film of The League recently. Apparently the American character
never appeared in the comic book (which I haven't read yet).

The film was something of a travesty of the first League book. All three
of the books are well worth reading IMO.
--

League of Gentlemen anyone?

Bazza

2008-02-22 08:51:35 UTC

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine of
the story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which
had different stars and talking animals.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of parallel realities.

How d'you work that out? You don't see many talking animals on this
version of Earth...

Not true. My uncle once had a talking Mawcaw and on the TV program "That's
Life" (sadly now defunct) they had a talking dog that could say the word
"sausages".

Baz

The Doctor

2008-02-22 13:45:33 UTC

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine of the
story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which had
different stars and talking animals.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of parallel realities.

How d'you work that out? You don't see many talking animals on this version
of Earth...

Well that can change.

Top Poster

2008-02-22 13:53:26 UTC

You must stop watching children's telly programs
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

death

Post by john smith
John
Collings Squire's "If It Had Happened Otherwise" (1931), a

collection

Post by john smith
of
essays with titles like 'If Napoleon Had Escaped to America' and 'If Booth
Had Missed Lincoln'...
"Star Trek" is FAR from being the fount of originality...- Hide

quoted

Post by john smith
text -
- Show quoted text -

You forgot to mention It's a Wonderful Life..... ;)

How about The Blazing World? That was written in 1666. The heroine of the
story passes through a portal near the North Pole to a world which had
different stars and talking animals.

...which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of parallel realities.

How d'you work that out? You don't see many talking animals on this version
of Earth...

Well that can change.
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

The Doctor

2008-02-18 21:11:12 UTC

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

I think your point is well taken TM.

Top Poster

2008-02-18 21:13:09 UTC

Who cares what you think
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?

I think your point is well taken TM.
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

Top Poster

2008-02-18 15:28:03 UTC

We say you wait and see Mr. slimy
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

Aggedor

2008-02-19 05:17:39 UTC

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?
-

I think that if parallel universes exist, somewhere out there amid the
infinite possibilities of different
realities that would result, there is a world where Yads was never born, and
rec.arts.drwho and
the many groups he cross-posts to are free of his nonsensical gibberish.
My question is: how do I get there?
Paul

Top Poster

2008-02-19 05:46:54 UTC

Use a killfile to get to the parallel universes
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

Post by Aggedor

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?
-

The Doctor

2008-02-19 12:27:32 UTC

Post by Aggedor

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?
-

That might threaten the climate of this planet from what we
know of Army of Ghosts.

Top Poster

2008-02-19 12:27:24 UTC

Is is a telly play stupid
--
Socrates taught his students that the pursuit of truth can only begin once
they start to question and analyze every belief that they ever held dear. If
a certain belief passes the tests of evidence, deduction, and logic, it
should be kept. If it doesn't, the belief should not only be discarded, but
the thinker must also then question why he was led to believe the erroneous

Post by Aggedor

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?
-

That might threaten the climate of this planet from what we
know of Army of Ghosts.
--
Member - Liberal International
God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising! On March 3rd,
Alberta! Time for a change and beware Alliance in PC clothing. Vote Liberal!

N***@googlemail.com

2008-02-20 17:54:24 UTC

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?
--

It's a way to keep the budget under control. You don't need to hire
different actors. Just give the ones you've got a few beards, a few
scars and maybe a monocle, and then you've got an extra universe at no
extra cost.

Mike Morris

2008-02-20 19:49:06 UTC

Post by N***@googlemail.com

Post by The Doctor
IS this getting to be a slimly used plot device?
In Inferno understablable. Since Rise of the Cybermen who knows.
To me go with something new. What do you say?
--

Plus, the thought of "Latest Hot Doctor Who Girl" in a kinky leather
outfit will always have a certain appeal.

Fromtheantimatter pitonZetaMinor

2008-02-21 00:44:53 UTC

All of RTD's Who takes place in a Parallel Universe!

NormanCastle

2008-02-21 09:55:01 UTC