Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?

What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?

Thanks.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-09-10 06:06:56 UTC

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?
Thanks.

Why exactly don't you look it up in dictionaries?

Arnaud Fournet

2018-09-10 06:32:04 UTC

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?
Thanks.

Why exactly don't you look it up in dictionaries?

I'm grateful if you provide a reference that you deem reliable.

António Marques

2018-09-10 07:30:24 UTC

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?
Thanks.

Why exactly don't you look it up in dictionaries?

I'm grateful if you provide a reference that you deem reliable.

Just what does your gratitude translate to? I seem to recall a history of
unexplained abuse towards pretty much everyone.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-09-10 10:06:55 UTC

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?
Thanks.

Why exactly don't you look it up in dictionaries?

I'm grateful if you provide a reference that you deem reliable.

Just what does your gratitude translate to? I seem to recall a history of
unexplained abuse towards pretty much everyone.

Let him extend his gratitude to gnä' Franz.

Arnaud Fournet

2018-09-10 11:23:12 UTC

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?
Thanks.

Why exactly don't you look it up in dictionaries?

I'm grateful if you provide a reference that you deem reliable.

Just what does your gratitude translate to? I seem to recall a history of
unexplained abuse towards pretty much everyone.

** unexplained ** ???
LOL

António Marques

2018-09-10 11:41:37 UTC

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?
Thanks.

Why exactly don't you look it up in dictionaries?

I'm grateful if you provide a reference that you deem reliable.

Just what does your gratitude translate to? I seem to recall a history of
unexplained abuse towards pretty much everyone.

** unexplained ** ???

Yes. Perhaps you’re not aware of it, but abuse is the last line of dialogue
in a civilised society, in practice a substitute for smacking.
Things may be different in your country, but we’ve had people from there
here on occasion, and they did not display any similar quickness to
attempted insult.

Arnaud Fournet

2018-09-10 13:02:41 UTC

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?
Thanks.

Why exactly don't you look it up in dictionaries?

I'm grateful if you provide a reference that you deem reliable.

Just what does your gratitude translate to? I seem to recall a history of
unexplained abuse towards pretty much everyone.

** unexplained ** ???

As far as awareness is concerned, has it come to you that you might deserve it ?

António Marques

2018-09-10 13:06:59 UTC

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?
Thanks.

Why exactly don't you look it up in dictionaries?

I'm grateful if you provide a reference that you deem reliable.

Just what does your gratitude translate to? I seem to recall a history of
unexplained abuse towards pretty much everyone.

** unexplained ** ???

As far as awareness is concerned, has it come to you that you might deserve it ?

Who doesn’t, according to you?

Arnaud Fournet

2018-09-11 10:28:25 UTC

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?
Thanks.

Why exactly don't you look it up in dictionaries?

I'm grateful if you provide a reference that you deem reliable.

Just what does your gratitude translate to? I seem to recall a history of
unexplained abuse towards pretty much everyone.

** unexplained ** ???

As far as awareness is concerned, has it come to you that you might deserve it ?

Who doesn’t, according to you?

Well, among others, Kleineke or Yusuf Gurney have never been unpleasant, so I've no reason to be unpleasant.
Of course, the worst is the senile pontificator PTD, who is nothing but a shithead and an incompetent bully.

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-10 13:15:52 UTC

Mon, 10 Sep 2018 06:02:41 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Yes. Perhaps youre not aware of it, but abuse is the last line of dialogue
in a civilised society, in practice a substitute for smacking.
Things may be different in your country, but weve had people from there
here on occasion, and they did not display any similar quickness to
attempted insult.

As far as awareness is concerned, has it come to you that you might deserve it ?

Nobody deserves being treated like you treat people. It's a disgrace.
It's just that by now we know how completely crazy you are, so we
ignore it.

You seem to be unaware of this yourself. That fits in the overall
picture.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-10 13:14:08 UTC

Mon, 10 Sep 2018 11:41:37 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?
Thanks.

Why exactly don't you look it up in dictionaries?

I'm grateful if you provide a reference that you deem reliable.

Just what does your gratitude translate to? I seem to recall a history of
unexplained abuse towards pretty much everyone.

** unexplained ** ???

That's because Arnaud Fournet is a complete lunatic and psychopath
when it comes to internet interaction. Of the worst kind.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Arnaud Fournet

2018-09-11 10:28:55 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 10 Sep 2018 11:41:37 -0000 (UTC): António Marques

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?
Thanks.

Why exactly don't you look it up in dictionaries?

I'm grateful if you provide a reference that you deem reliable.

Just what does your gratitude translate to? I seem to recall a history of
unexplained abuse towards pretty much everyone.

** unexplained ** ???

That's because Arnaud Fournet is a complete lunatic and psychopath
when it comes to internet interaction. Of the worst kind.

Lol :)

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-10 13:12:03 UTC

Sun, 9 Sep 2018 23:32:04 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?
Thanks.

Why exactly don't you look it up in dictionaries?

I'm grateful if you provide a reference that you deem reliable.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/m%C3%A4yr%C3%A4#Etymology

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Daud Deden

2018-09-10 17:49:45 UTC

"From Proto-Finnic *mäkrä. Cognate with Karelian mäkrä, Estonian mäger and Veps mägr."

No connection to Magyar then?

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-10 20:47:56 UTC

Mon, 10 Sep 2018 10:49:45 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
"From Proto-Finnic *mäkrä. Cognate with Karelian mäkrä, Estonian mäger and Veps mägr."
No connection to Magyar then?

Scholars do not even agree is Hungarian and Finnish are related. Meny
think so, but there is no reliable proof. The branches are too
distant.

But that seems to be largely bullshit, inspired by nationalistic bias:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_theories_of_the_Hungarian_language_relations#History_of_the_Hungarian_language

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Daud Deden

2018-09-10 22:47:38 UTC

Mon, 10 Sep 2018 10:49:45 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
"From Proto-Finnic *mäkrä. Cognate with Karelian mäkrä, Estonian mäger and Veps mägr."
No connection to Magyar then?

Who wrote this comment and when?

"Scholars do not even agree is Hungarian and Finnish are related. Meny
think so, but there is no reliable proof. The branches are too
distant."

That comment did not show up here. The branches are side by side, very close IMO. Yukaghir is less close. (Per Ruhlen)

Post by Ruud Harmsen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_theories_of_the_Hungarian_language_relations#History_of_the_Hungarian_language
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-11 06:48:57 UTC

Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:47:38 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
That comment did not show up here. The branches are side by side, very close IMO.

But hard to prove because Hungarian has a huge number of old loan
words from Turkic, Persian, and Slavic languages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_language#Prehistory

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-09-11 17:15:10 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:47:38 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
That comment did not show up here. The branches are side by side, very close IMO.

But hard to prove because Hungarian has a huge number of old loan
words from Turkic, Persian, and Slavic languages.

That Hungarian and Finnish are related, has been proven as conclusively as the relationship of, say, English and Persian. Of course, Daud's suggestion that the branches are "very close" is the usual bullshit you get from Daud.

António Marques

2018-09-11 17:24:05 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:47:38 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
That comment did not show up here. The branches are side by side, very close IMO.

But hard to prove because Hungarian has a huge number of old loan
words from Turkic, Persian, and Slavic languages.

That Hungarian and Finnish are related, has been proven as conclusively
as the relationship of, say, English and Persian.

How does Hungarian strike you, from a Finnish speaker perspective? I don’t
think I’ve asked that before.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-09-11 19:27:47 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:47:38 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
That comment did not show up here. The branches are side by side, very close IMO.

But hard to prove because Hungarian has a huge number of old loan
words from Turkic, Persian, and Slavic languages.

That Hungarian and Finnish are related, has been proven as conclusively
as the relationship of, say, English and Persian.

How does Hungarian strike you, from a Finnish speaker perspective? I don’t
think I’ve asked that before.

As it happens, I have made some serious attempts to learn Hungarian. While the language of course is superficially very different from Finnish, its so-called difficulties strike me as something "those Indo-Europeans" would not get, but somehow more easily understandable for a Finn. The similarity is uncanny, once you bother to make a serious attempt.

Daud Deden

2018-09-11 19:48:48 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:47:38 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
That comment did not show up here. The branches are side by side, very close IMO.

But hard to prove because Hungarian has a huge number of old loan
words from Turkic, Persian, and Slavic languages.

That Hungarian and Finnish are related, has been proven as conclusively
as the relationship of, say, English and Persian.

How does Hungarian strike you, from a Finnish speaker perspective? I don’t
think I’ve asked that before.

That's a bunch of reindeer shit, donchaknow.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-09-11 19:57:41 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:47:38 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
That comment did not show up here. The branches are side by side, very close IMO.

But hard to prove because Hungarian has a huge number of old loan
words from Turkic, Persian, and Slavic languages.

That Hungarian and Finnish are related, has been proven as conclusively
as the relationship of, say, English and Persian.

How does Hungarian strike you, from a Finnish speaker perspective? I don’t
think I’ve asked that before.

That's a bunch of reindeer shit, donchaknow.

As a stupid piece of shit who has never bothered to learn the languages you pontificate about, you just keep your mouth shut and be grateful you still have a mouth to keep shut.

Daud Deden

2018-09-11 21:33:31 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:47:38 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
That comment did not show up here. The branches are side by side, very close IMO.

But hard to prove because Hungarian has a huge number of old loan
words from Turkic, Persian, and Slavic languages.

That Hungarian and Finnish are related, has been proven as conclusively
as the relationship of, say, English and Persian.

How does Hungarian strike you, from a Finnish speaker perspective? I don’t
think I’ve asked that before.

That's a bunch of reindeer shit, donchaknow.

As a stupid piece of shit who has never bothered to learn the languages you pontificate about, you just keep your mouth shut and be grateful you still have a mouth to keep shut.

You forgot to flush.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-09-12 05:11:34 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:47:38 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
That comment did not show up here. The branches are side by side, very close IMO.

But hard to prove because Hungarian has a huge number of old loan
words from Turkic, Persian, and Slavic languages.

That Hungarian and Finnish are related, has been proven as conclusively
as the relationship of, say, English and Persian.

How does Hungarian strike you, from a Finnish speaker perspective? I don’t
think I’ve asked that before.

That's a bunch of reindeer shit, donchaknow.

As a stupid piece of shit who has never bothered to learn the languages you pontificate about, you just keep your mouth shut and be grateful you still have a mouth to keep shut.

You forgot to flush.

Being lazy and stupid, you are obviously jealous of people who are not lazy or stupid but actually bother to learn the languages involved. Instead, you should try to learn them, yourself. But being the lazy, stupid and generally worthless thing you are, it does not even occur to you to actually do the work.

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-12 06:18:26 UTC

Tue, 11 Sep 2018 22:11:34 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski

Post by MÅcisÅaw Wojna-Bojewski
Being lazy and stupid, you are obviously jealous of people who are not lazy or stupid but actually bother to learn the languages involved. Instead, you should try to learn them, yourself. But being the lazy, stupid and generally worthless thing you are, it does not even occur to you to actually do the work.

Etymology does not require to learn the languages in question. Nobody
"learns" Proto-Germanic or Proto-Semitic, for example.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Arnaud Fournet

2018-09-12 07:11:20 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 22:11:34 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski

Etymology does not require to learn the languages in question. Nobody
"learns" Proto-Germanic or Proto-Semitic, for example.

I suppose that some people who are extensively acquainted with Proto-Germanic or Proto-Semitic can develop some ability to speak them.
It's like some teachers of yore who could speak Latin.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-09-12 12:38:22 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 22:11:34 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski

Etymology does not require to learn the languages in question. Nobody
"learns" Proto-Germanic or Proto-Semitic, for example.

I suppose that some people who are extensively acquainted with Proto-Germanic or Proto-Semitic can develop some ability to speak them.
It's like some teachers of yore who could speak Latin.

No, it isn't. Latin is a well-documented language, while Proto-Germanic and Proto-Semitic are theoretical constructions. For instance, we know nothing about the syntax of those languages, while that of Latin is very well documented. If we had only the evidence of Romance languages, we could not reconstruct Latin.

Peter T. Daniels

2018-09-12 13:06:14 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 22:11:34 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski

Etymology does not require to learn the languages in question. Nobody
"learns" Proto-Germanic or Proto-Semitic, for example.

I suppose that some people who are extensively acquainted with Proto-Germanic or Proto-Semitic can develop some ability to speak them.
It's like some teachers of yore who could speak Latin.

"We" have done. Reconstructed Vulgar Latin doesn't look all that much like
Classical Latin, and when you include the hints at the spoken language that
are preserved in things like comedies (Plautus, Terence) and "grammars"
(lists of "do not say this, say this"), Pompeiian graffiti, the wooden
tablets from Britain, etc., the impression of divergence is strengthened.

Arnaud Fournet

2018-09-12 15:45:00 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 22:11:34 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski

Etymology does not require to learn the languages in question. Nobody
"learns" Proto-Germanic or Proto-Semitic, for example.

I suppose that some people who are extensively acquainted with Proto-Germanic or Proto-Semitic can develop some ability to speak them.
It's like some teachers of yore who could speak Latin.

nihilistic BS.

Peter T. Daniels

2018-09-12 13:00:18 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 22:11:34 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski

Etymology does not require to learn the languages in question. Nobody
"learns" Proto-Germanic or Proto-Semitic, for example.

I suppose that some people who are extensively acquainted with Proto-Germanic or Proto-Semitic can develop some ability to speak them.
It's like some teachers of yore who could speak Latin.

No, it is not "like" at all. There is (still) an unbroken tradition of
speaking (Classical) Latin, whereas reconstructions of Vulgar Latin from
all the Modern Latin dialects (those stretching from Lisbon to Bucharest)
remains spotty. Even more so for Semitic, where only Arabic and Aramaic
and the Ethiopic languages have survived, and, as Semitic languages go,
not for all that long a time.

Daud Deden

2018-09-12 13:41:48 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 22:11:34 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski

Etymology does not require to learn the languages in question. Nobody
"learns" Proto-Germanic or Proto-Semitic, for example.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Per Paleo-etymology, there is one human language, with numerous dialects .

Ymir

2018-09-12 17:07:39 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 22:11:34 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski

Post by MÅcisÅaw Wojna-Bojewski
Being lazy and stupid, you are obviously jealous of people who are not
lazy or stupid but actually bother to learn the languages involved.
Instead, you should try to learn them, yourself. But being the lazy,
stupid and generally worthless thing you are, it does not even occur to
you to actually do the work.

Etymology does not require to learn the languages in question. Nobody
"learns" Proto-Germanic or Proto-Semitic, for example.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Per Paleo-etymology, there is one human language, with numerous dialects .

Can you provide us with some published source in which arguments for
'paleo-etymology' are actually offered and its methodology described and
defended in detail?

Just saying 'per paleo-etymology' doesn't give your claim any weight
whatsoever unless you can provide the above.

Chomsky once claimed that 'any intelligent Martian observer would
conclude that all humans speak a single language'. Your argument from
non-existent authority is no more compelling than his argument from
universal quantification over the empty set.

Andre

--
To email remove 'invalid' & replace 'gm' with well known Google mail service.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-09-12 18:06:14 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 22:11:34 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski

Etymology does not require to learn the languages in question. Nobody
"learns" Proto-Germanic or Proto-Semitic, for example.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Per Paleo-etymology, there is one human language, with numerous dialects .

"Paleo-etymology" is your own hypothesis, and you cannot force us to work with your personal hypotheses.

Daud Deden

2018-09-12 13:39:35 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:47:38 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
That comment did not show up here. The branches are side by side, very close IMO.

But hard to prove because Hungarian has a huge number of old loan
words from Turkic, Persian, and Slavic languages.

That Hungarian and Finnish are related, has been proven as conclusively
as the relationship of, say, English and Persian.

How does Hungarian strike you, from a Finnish speaker perspective? I don’t
think I’ve asked that before.

That's a bunch of reindeer shit, donchaknow.

As a stupid piece of shit who has never bothered to learn the languages you pontificate about, you just keep your mouth shut and be grateful you still have a mouth to keep shut.

You forgot to flush.

That's twice you misunderstood.

Daud Deden

2018-09-12 04:25:28 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:47:38 -

"The branches are side by side, very close IMO."

=

"The similarity is uncanny"

Of course.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-09-12 05:09:18 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:47:38 -

"The branches are side by side, very close IMO."
=
"The similarity is uncanny"
Of course.

They are not "side by side, very close". THey are demonstrably related, but this does not mean they are "side by side, very close".

Daud Deden

2018-09-12 13:38:21 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:47:38 -

"The branches are side by side, very close IMO."
=
"The similarity is uncanny"
Of course.

They are not "side by side, very close". THey are demonstrably related, but this does not mean they are "side by side, very close".

What is closer? Estonian, part of the Gulf of Boethnia, used to be connected.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-09-12 18:05:06 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 10 Sep 2018 15:47:38 -

"The branches are side by side, very close IMO."
=
"The similarity is uncanny"
Of course.

They are not "side by side, very close". THey are demonstrably related, but this does not mean they are "side by side, very close".

What is closer? Estonian, part of the Gulf of Boethnia, used to be connected.

Estonian is a Balto-Finnic language as is Finnish, and the similarity is obvious to anybody. Hungarian is a Ugric language, and less closely related. However, it is obviously related, the way English is obviously related to Persian, Russian, Polish or Armenian.

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-13 06:19:36 UTC

Wed, 12 Sep 2018 11:05:06 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski

Post by MÅcisÅaw Wojna-Bojewski
They are not "side by side, very close". THey are demonstrably related, but this does not mean they are "side by side, very close".

What is closer? Estonian, part of the Gulf of Boethnia, used to be connected.

OK. Nevertheless the differences between Hungarian and its closest
relatives Khanty and Mansi, are considerable.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-09-13 07:38:55 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 12 Sep 2018 11:05:06 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski

Post by MÅcisÅaw Wojna-Bojewski
They are not "side by side, very close". THey are demonstrably related, but this does not mean they are "side by side, very close".

What is closer? Estonian, part of the Gulf of Boethnia, used to be connected.

OK. Nevertheless the differences between Hungarian and its closest
relatives Khanty and Mansi, are considerable.

True enough. Hungarian does not have such relatives as Finnish and Estonian have in each other (well, Csángó Hungarian is rumored to be far enough from mainstream Hungarian to be arguably a separate language, but it is commonly seen to be a dialect). However, the structural quirks and difficulties of Hungarian so dreaded by Indo-Europeans do not feel half as difficult or illogical when you study them as a Finn.

Daud Deden

2018-09-13 07:46:14 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 12 Sep 2018 11:05:06 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski

Post by MÅcisÅaw Wojna-Bojewski
They are not "side by side, very close". THey are demonstrably related, but this does not mean they are "side by side, very close".

What is closer? Estonian, part of the Gulf of Boethnia, used to be connected.

OK. Nevertheless the differences between Hungarian and its closest
relatives Khanty and Mansi, are considerable.

Obviously.

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-13 08:22:04 UTC

Thu, 13 Sep 2018 00:38:55 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski

[...] the structural quirks and difficulties of Hungarian so dreaded by Indo-Europeans do not feel half as difficult or illogical when you study them as a Finn.

They don't seem difficult to me either. And they are VERY logical.
Nine of the "cases", fit into a very logical 3x3 scheme (in/on/near,
and towards/at/away from), for example, part of which returns in
adverbs like alatt. The only problem: it is hard to remember what is
what.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

António Marques

2018-09-13 10:01:44 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The only problem: it is hard to remember what is
what.

Ha!

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-09-11 08:51:51 UTC

Mon, 10 Sep 2018 10:49:45 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
"From Proto-Finnic *mäkrä. Cognate with Karelian mäkrä, Estonian mäger and Veps mägr."
No connection to Magyar then?

Who wrote this comment and when?
"Scholars do not even agree is Hungarian and Finnish are related. Meny
think so, but there is no reliable proof. The branches are too
distant."
That comment did not show up here. The branches are side by side, very close IMO. Yukaghir is less close. (Per Ruhlen)

Your opinion does not count. As regards Yukaghir, it is not demonstrably related, although attempts to link it with Uralic have been made.

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-10 20:41:07 UTC

Mon, 10 Sep 2018 10:49:45 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
"From Proto-Finnic *mäkrä. Cognate with Karelian mäkrä, Estonian mäger and Veps mägr."
No connection to Magyar then?

Scholars do not even agree is Hungarian and Finnish are related. Meny
think so, but there is no reliable proof. The branches are too
distant.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-09-11 08:42:06 UTC

Mon, 10 Sep 2018 10:49:45 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
"From Proto-Finnic *mäkrä. Cognate with Karelian mäkrä, Estonian mäger and Veps mägr."
No connection to Magyar then?

Scholars do not even agree is Hungarian and Finnish are related. Meny
think so, but there is no reliable proof. The branches are too
distant.

What in the name of God are you talking about? The fact that Hungarian and Finnish are related is quite established. The recent attempts to refute it are purely Hungarian-nationalist bullshit.

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-11 18:27:55 UTC

Tue, 11 Sep 2018 01:42:06 -0700 (PDT): M?cis?aw Wojna-Bojewski

Mon, 10 Sep 2018 10:49:45 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
"From Proto-Finnic *mäkrä. Cognate with Karelian mäkrä, Estonian mäger and Veps mägr."
No connection to Magyar then?

Scholars do not even agree is Hungarian and Finnish are related. Meny
think so, but there is no reliable proof. The branches are too
distant.

What in the name of God are you talking about? The fact that Hungarian and Finnish are related is quite established. The recent attempts to refute it are purely Hungarian-nationalist bullshit.

Yes, I now think so too.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Franz Gnaedinger

2018-09-10 07:42:24 UTC

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?

Karelian has mägry 'badger' which reminds me of Magdalenian MUC for a bull,
used for anything compact, for example Swiss Mocke can refer to a Föifer
Mocke, a round bonbon on a popsickle for five cents, or it can call the
late opera singer Pavarotti, or it can name the motor in a car among
aficionados, or it can be a pet name for a toddler, my sweet chubby child.

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-10 13:17:17 UTC

Mon, 10 Sep 2018 00:42:24 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?

Karelian has mägry 'badger' which reminds me of Magdalenian MUC for a bull,

And it reminds me of bullshit.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
used for anything compact, for example Swiss Mocke can refer to a Föifer
Mocke, a round bonbon on a popsickle for five cents, or it can call the
late opera singer Pavarotti, or it can name the motor in a car among
aficionados, or it can be a pet name for a toddler, my sweet chubby child.

Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, so they
cannot have cognates, only (very unlikely) loans.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Peter T. Daniels

2018-09-10 19:17:35 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 10 Sep 2018 00:42:24 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?

Karelian has mägry 'badger' which reminds me of Magdalenian MUC for a bull,

And it reminds me of bullshit.

Because you need to muck out the barn fairly frequently.

Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, so they
cannot have cognates, only (very unlikely) loans.

That sentence looks familiar.

Arnaud Fournet

2018-09-11 10:26:13 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 10 Sep 2018 00:42:24 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?

Karelian has mägry 'badger' which reminds me of Magdalenian MUC for a bull,

And it reminds me of bullshit.

Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, **so** they
cannot have cognates,

No, this "logical" inference is entirely false.
A.

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-09-11 17:12:19 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 10 Sep 2018 00:42:24 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Arnaud Fournet
What are the Uralic cognates of Finnish mäyrä "badger" ?

Karelian has mägry 'badger' which reminds me of Magdalenian MUC for a bull,

And it reminds me of bullshit.

Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, **so** they
cannot have cognates,

No, this "logical" inference is entirely false.

Give us a counter-example then.

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-11 18:28:38 UTC

Tue, 11 Sep 2018 03:26:13 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, **so** they
cannot have cognates,

No, this "logical" inference is entirely false.
A.

No, it is not.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Arnaud Fournet

2018-09-12 07:08:28 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 03:26:13 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, **so** they
cannot have cognates,

No, this "logical" inference is entirely false.
A.

No, it is not.

yes, it is.
Languages can belong to separate families and nevertheless share cognates.

Something I've been investigating is the reflexes of Semitic fricative lateral *s'

According to the word "lip" *s'ip-, *s'ap-, the reflexes are as follows:
Basque z => ezpain "lip"
Kartvelian (aspirated) c^ => tu-c^i (loss of p is possibly due to the plural -bi which also has a labial)
PIE l => lab-
Uralic r => tu-rpa "lip"
Incidentally *tu probably means "mouth"
Of course Arabic is *s^

Now we can take another cognate: the word "badger" *meH1-s'-
Basque is azkon where z is regular and k possibly reflects *H1
loss of m is regular in Basque
Kartvelian is mac^vi "badger" (*H1 > zero)
PIE is me:l- especially in Latin me:le:s "badger"
Uralic, here mostly Finno-Baltic is *mäGr > *mäwr- or *mäkr-
hardening of *H1 into k is regular in Finno-Baltic.
The original meaning of the word is probably linked to Semitic *mah.as'- "to burn, to become black because of fire"
so the word "badger" more or less means "blackard"

so, in summary, we have two words that have cognates across five different families.

So, as I wrote before, your inference is entirely false.

Franz Gnaedinger

2018-09-12 07:25:24 UTC

Post by Arnaud Fournet
Now we can take another cognate: the word "badger" *meH1-s'-
Basque is azkon where z is regular and k possibly reflects *H1
loss of m is regular in Basque
Kartvelian is mac^vi "badger" (*H1 > zero)
PIE is me:l- especially in Latin me:le:s "badger"
Uralic, here mostly Finno-Baltic is *mäGr > *mäwr- or *mäkr-
hardening of *H1 into k is regular in Finno-Baltic.
The original meaning of the word is probably linked to Semitic *mah.as'- "to burn, to become black because of fire"
so the word "badger" more or less means "blackard"

Sounds very good and plausible, so we have too opposing etymologies.
Will go on badgering my way and try to find evidence for the Uralic
badger as possible guide and guard of the moon bull through the Underworld,
which is not entirely fiction but based on archaeology (Goebekli Tepe, and
a stater of the Curisolitae in Brittany, where the fox plays the same role
for the sun).

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-12 09:53:28 UTC

Wed, 12 Sep 2018 00:08:28 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 03:26:13 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, **so** they
cannot have cognates,

No, this "logical" inference is entirely false.
A.

No, it is not.

yes, it is.
Languages can belong to separate families and nevertheless share cognates.
Something I've been investigating is the reflexes of Semitic fricative lateral *s'
Basque z => ezpain "lip"
Kartvelian (aspirated) c^ => tu-c^i (loss of p is possibly due to the plural -bi which also has a labial)
PIE l => lab-
Uralic r => tu-rpa "lip"
Incidentally *tu probably means "mouth"
Of course Arabic is *s^
Now we can take another cognate: the word "badger" *meH1-s'-
Basque is azkon where z is regular and k possibly reflects *H1
loss of m is regular in Basque
Kartvelian is mac^vi "badger" (*H1 > zero)
PIE is me:l- especially in Latin me:le:s "badger"
Uralic, here mostly Finno-Baltic is *mäGr > *mäwr- or *mäkr-
hardening of *H1 into k is regular in Finno-Baltic.
The original meaning of the word is probably linked to Semitic *mah.as'- "to burn, to become black because of fire"
so the word "badger" more or less means "blackard"
so, in summary, we have two words that have cognates across five different families.
So, as I wrote before, your inference is entirely false.

You are just as crazy as Daud and Franz.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Arnaud Fournet

2018-09-12 10:58:40 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 12 Sep 2018 00:08:28 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 03:26:13 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, **so** they
cannot have cognates,

No, this "logical" inference is entirely false.
A.

No, it is not.

You are just as crazy as Daud and Franz.

you're in complete denial of the obvious.

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-12 14:37:16 UTC

Wed, 12 Sep 2018 03:58:40 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Arnaud Fournet
so, in summary, we have two words that have cognates across five different families.
So, as I wrote before, your inference is entirely false.

You are just as crazy as Daud and Franz.

you're in complete denial of the obvious.

I trust Wikipedia better than the lot of you.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-09-12 12:35:56 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 03:26:13 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, **so** they
cannot have cognates,

No, this "logical" inference is entirely false.
A.

No, it is not.

yes, it is.
Languages can belong to separate families and nevertheless share cognates.

No, they can't. That's in the definition of the concept of "cognate". If they share "cognates", those are not cognates but loanwords (loanwords in one or both languages).

Peter T. Daniels

2018-09-12 12:56:02 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 03:26:13 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, **so** they
cannot have cognates,

No, this "logical" inference is entirely false.

No, it is not.

"You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.”

"Cognate" means 'descended from a common etymon'. It does not mean 'words
related by borrowing'.

Unless, of course, you subscribe to an expanded Greenbergian Eurasiatic,
comprising IE, AA, Kart, Ur, and Basque.

Arnaud Fournet

2018-09-12 15:44:26 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 03:26:13 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, **so** they
cannot have cognates,

No, this "logical" inference is entirely false.

No, it is not.

"You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.”
"Cognate" means 'descended from a common etymon'. It does not mean 'words
related by borrowing'.

I understand what cognate means. Thx.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Unless, of course, you subscribe to an expanded Greenbergian Eurasiatic,
comprising IE, AA, Kart, Ur, and Basque.

Peter T. Daniels

2018-09-12 15:54:55 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 03:26:13 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, **so** they
cannot have cognates,

No, this "logical" inference is entirely false.

No, it is not.

"You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.”
"Cognate" means 'descended from a common etymon'. It does not mean 'words
related by borrowing'.

I understand what cognate means. Thx.

Then why are you misusing it above?

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Unless, of course, you subscribe to an expanded Greenbergian Eurasiatic,
comprising IE, AA, Kart, Ur, and Basque.

Is this in fact your position?

Yet you complain about "Altaic." (Note that I didn't put "UA" in the list.)

Arnaud Fournet

2018-09-12 18:10:25 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 03:26:13 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, **so** they
cannot have cognates,

No, this "logical" inference is entirely false.

No, it is not.

"You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.”
"Cognate" means 'descended from a common etymon'. It does not mean 'words
related by borrowing'.

I understand what cognate means. Thx.

Then why are you misusing it above?

I'm not responsible if you're incompetent.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Unless, of course, you subscribe to an expanded Greenbergian Eurasiatic,
comprising IE, AA, Kart, Ur, and Basque.

Is this in fact your position?
Yet you complain about "Altaic." (Note that I didn't put "UA" in the list.)

DKleinecke

2018-09-12 18:20:52 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 03:26:13 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, **so** they
cannot have cognates,

No, this "logical" inference is entirely false.

No, it is not.

"You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.”
"Cognate" means 'descended from a common etymon'. It does not mean 'words
related by borrowing'.

I understand what cognate means. Thx.

Then why are you misusing it above?

I'm not responsible if you're incompetent.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Unless, of course, you subscribe to an expanded Greenbergian Eurasiatic,
comprising IE, AA, Kart, Ur, and Basque.

Is this in fact your position?
Yet you complain about "Altaic." (Note that I didn't put "UA" in the list.)

I am reminded of the old joke (in the way I first heard it):
"This is the same axe my grandfather brought west in 49 -
three new heads and five new handles." Languages A and B are
the same language because they share a common ancestor even
though both A and B are 100% different than that ancestor.

Peter T. Daniels

2018-09-12 18:25:21 UTC

Post by DKleinecke
"This is the same axe my grandfather brought west in 49 -
three new heads and five new handles." Languages A and B are
the same language because they share a common ancestor even
though both A and B are 100% different than that ancestor.

But similar to some extent to each other? Yet those similarities are not
inherited?

DKleinecke

2018-09-12 21:21:29 UTC

But similar to some extent to each other? Yet those similarities are not
inherited?

It's hard to put together two words that people like
DD will not consider "similar to some extent".
Coincidences everywhere/

Daud Deden

2018-09-12 21:32:05 UTC

Post by DKleinecke

But similar to some extent to each other? Yet those similarities are not
inherited?

It's hard to put together two words that people like
DD will not consider "similar to some extent".
Coincidences everywhere/

Sorry, I think you put Peters words in your mouth and somehow assigned them to me. So far, my work has not been described well here by Neo-etymologists (including Franz). I can't imagine that changing. Calls for methodologies etc. ring hollow. The method is irrelevant. How many ways to skin a cat?

Daud Deden

2018-09-12 20:49:42 UTC

Post by DKleinecke

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 03:26:13 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, **so** they
cannot have cognates,

No, this "logical" inference is entirely false.

No, it is not.

"You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.”
"Cognate" means 'descended from a common etymon'. It does not mean 'words
related by borrowing'.

I understand what cognate means. Thx.

Then why are you misusing it above?

I'm not responsible if you're incompetent.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Unless, of course, you subscribe to an expanded Greenbergian Eurasiatic,
comprising IE, AA, Kart, Ur, and Basque.

Is this in fact your position?
Yet you complain about "Altaic." (Note that I didn't put "UA" in the list.)

"This is the same axe my grandfather brought west in 49 -
three new heads and five new handles." Languages A and B are
the same language because they share a common ancestor even
though both A and B are 100% different than that ancestor.

Human Language -=> Human Linguistic Dialects.

Peter T. Daniels

2018-09-12 18:23:18 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 03:26:13 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, **so** they
cannot have cognates,

No, this "logical" inference is entirely false.

No, it is not.

"You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.”
"Cognate" means 'descended from a common etymon'. It does not mean 'words
related by borrowing'.

I understand what cognate means. Thx.

Then why are you misusing it above?

I'm not responsible if you're incompetent.

You are responsible for your own misuse of technical terminology.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Unless, of course, you subscribe to an expanded Greenbergian Eurasiatic,
comprising IE, AA, Kart, Ur, and Basque.

Is this in fact your position?
Yet you complain about "Altaic." (Note that I didn't put "UA" in the list.)

b***@ihug.co.nz

2018-09-12 21:45:20 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 03:26:13 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, **so** they
cannot have cognates,

No, this "logical" inference is entirely false.

No, it is not.

"You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.”
"Cognate" means 'descended from a common etymon'. It does not mean 'words
related by borrowing'.

I understand what cognate means. Thx.

Then why are you misusing it above?

I'm not responsible if you're incompetent.

You are responsible for your own misuse of technical terminology.

The fact is that there is a division in usage of the term.

Everyone agrees that cognates have a common origin.
The narrowest usage also requires that they be directly
inherited from that common origin. Hence only languages
known to be genetically related can have cognates.
But then what term do we have for words which undoubtedly
have a common origin, but where borrowing has occurred at
some stage in their histories?

Let me re-quote what I quoted when this came up on sci.lang
in 2002

cognate 1. Narrowly, and most usually, one of two or more words
or morphemes which are directly descended from a single ancestral
form in the single common ancestor of the languages in which the
words or morphemes are found, with no borrowing. [Examples]
2. Broadly, and less usually, one of two or more words which have a
single common origin but one or more of which have been borrowed
[Examples]
Note: some linguists object to the use of the word in the second sense.

- L.Trask, Dictionary of Historical Linguistics (2001)

You can see the same division in Wikipedia's article "Cognate".
In the opening paragraph we read:
"For example, the English word dish and the German word Tisch ("table")
are cognates because they both come from Latin discus, which relates
to their flat surfaces."

And in the following paragraph:

"In etymology, the cognate category excludes doublets and loanwords."

So "in etymology" (whatever the contributor means by that), dish/Tisch
would not be allowed. (I think doublets, e.g. English chief and chef,
always involve borrowing, so "doublets and" is really unnecessary there.)

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-12 17:27:14 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Cognate" means 'descended from a common etymon'. It does not mean 'words
related by borrowing'.

Wed, 12 Sep 2018 08:44:26 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Arnaud Fournet
I understand what cognate means. Thx.

So, cognates cannot exist in two languages that are not family.
Period. Unless they are. But they are not. Or not that we know,
because we cannot know, because it is too long ago and too
complicated. So they are not.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Daud Deden

2018-09-12 20:47:19 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Cognate" means 'descended from a common etymon'. It does not mean 'words
related by borrowing'.

Wed, 12 Sep 2018 08:44:26 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Arnaud Fournet
I understand what cognate means. Thx.

It is "non-cognates" which are relatively rare.

It is vastly more likely that two words which mean approximately the same thing and sound approximately are indeed co-generated 'siblings' or closely related, no matter which language or geography or claimed "Language Family" the words are used in. Sadly most linguists don't get this and won't get this.

b***@ihug.co.nz

2018-09-12 21:08:10 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Cognate" means 'descended from a common etymon'. It does not mean 'words
related by borrowing'.

Wed, 12 Sep 2018 08:44:26 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Arnaud Fournet
I understand what cognate means. Thx.

It is "non-cognates" which are relatively rare.
It is vastly more likely that two words which mean approximately the same thing and sound approximately are indeed co-generated 'siblings' or closely related, no matter which language or geography or claimed "Language Family" the words are used in. Sadly most linguists don't get this and won't get this.

Sadly, you simply repeat this belief without any proof.

Daud Deden

2018-09-12 21:24:02 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Cognate" means 'descended from a common etymon'. It does not mean 'words
related by borrowing'.

Wed, 12 Sep 2018 08:44:26 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Arnaud Fournet
I understand what cognate means. Thx.

It is "non-cognates" which are relatively rare.
It is vastly more likely that two words which mean approximately the same thing and sound approximately are indeed co-generated 'siblings' or closely related, no matter which language or geography or claimed "Language Family" the words are used in. Sadly most linguists don't get this and won't get this.

Sadly, you simply repeat this belief without any proof.

Belief? No, logic. Don't confuse the two.

b***@ihug.co.nz

2018-09-12 21:54:55 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Cognate" means 'descended from a common etymon'. It does not mean 'words
related by borrowing'.

Wed, 12 Sep 2018 08:44:26 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Arnaud Fournet
I understand what cognate means. Thx.

It is "non-cognates" which are relatively rare.
It is vastly more likely that two words which mean approximately the same thing and sound approximately are indeed co-generated 'siblings' or closely related, no matter which language or geography or claimed "Language Family" the words are used in. Sadly most linguists don't get this and won't get this.

Sadly, you simply repeat this belief without any proof.

Belief? No, logic. Don't confuse the two.

It's a belief, Dood. It's so strong that you cannot even understand
counter-evidence when it's presented. "Logic" is just a self-flattering
word that some people use to describe their unfounded beliefs.

Daud Deden

2018-09-13 01:50:33 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Cognate" means 'descended from a common etymon'. It does not mean 'words
related by borrowing'.

Wed, 12 Sep 2018 08:44:26 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Arnaud Fournet
I understand what cognate means. Thx.

It is "non-cognates" which are relatively rare.
It is vastly more likely that two words which mean approximately the same thing and sound approximately are indeed co-generated 'siblings' or closely related, no matter which language or geography or claimed "Language Family" the words are used in. Sadly most linguists don't get this and won't get this.

Sadly, you simply repeat this belief without any proof.

Belief? No, logic. Don't confuse the two.

It's a belief, Dood. It's so strong that you cannot even understand
counter-evidence when it's presented.

False, I simply categorize it differently than the usual convention (based upon European/Anglish arrogance). The counter-evidence is based on modern paradigms which were irrelevant to Paleo-people. Thus they are wrong by definition. And summing up a quantity of "coincidental" cognates has no meaning at all.

Once again I ask that you not claim to understand my beliefs, I'm convinced now that you are incompetent at that, and can only produce your own prejudices.

"Logic" is just a self-flattering

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
word that some people use to describe their unfounded beliefs.

Idem.

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-13 08:08:17 UTC

Wed, 12 Sep 2018 18:50:33 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
The counter-evidence is based on modern paradigms which were irrelevant to Paleo-people.

Do you or do you not ackowledge slow language change?

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-13 08:09:12 UTC

Wed, 12 Sep 2018 18:50:33 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
And summing up a quantity of "coincidental" cognates has no meaning at all.

Then why are you doing that all the time?

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-13 07:58:48 UTC

Wed, 12 Sep 2018 14:24:02 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
It is "non-cognates" which are relatively rare.
It is vastly more likely that two words which mean approximately the same thing and sound approximately are indeed co-generated 'siblings' or closely related, no matter which language or geography or claimed "Language Family" the words are used in. Sadly most linguists don't get this and won't get this.

Sadly, you simply repeat this belief without any proof.

Belief? No, logic. Don't confuse the two.

OK, show me that logic.

Assume two word in different languages have related meanings and
similar phonetics. But they are in different language families (or
branches therefore), so a common ancestor, if it has existed at all
(often we do not and cannot know) would have been spoken thousands of
years ago.

How can it be that these words would STILL be similar, despite the
observed FACT that all languages slowly change, both in phonetics,
phonemics AND semantics? Explain that to us.

Some languages are rather conservative (Arabic, Icelandic), but even
those DO gradually change. We know that for a fact. NO language on
earth remains the same for thousands of years, not even even for 500
years.

Even Hebrew, artificially revived from a supposed state some 1200
years ago, is different as spoken in Israel now, from how it was in
Tiberian, Evangelical or Old-Testamentic times.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-13 06:57:13 UTC

Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:47:19 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

It is vastly likely hat the similarity is a statistical coincidence,
if the languages belong to different language families, or if their
common ancestor dates from 1000s of years ago.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Daud Deden

2018-09-13 07:42:46 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:47:19 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

It is vastly likely hat the similarity is a statistical coincidence,

What drugs are you on?

Post by Ruud Harmsen
if the languages belong to different language families, or if their
common ancestor dates from 1000s of years ago.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-13 08:26:40 UTC

Thu, 13 Sep 2018 00:42:46 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:47:19 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

It is vastly likely that the similarity is a statistical coincidence,

What drugs are you on?

None. Never touched or even came near any of them in my life. Only
alcohol, in limited quantities, but never during the day, and now
being in the abstinence part of the week.

That said, please answer my questions in two other messages, about
logic and about language change.

Post by Ruud Harmsen
if the languages belong to different language families, or if their
common ancestor dates from 1000s of years ago.

Hungarian ház and Dutch huis are quite similar-sounding and have the
same meaning. But they are not cognate and Hungarian is unrelated to
Dutch.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-09-13 09:59:48 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:47:19 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

It is vastly likely hat the similarity is a statistical coincidence,

What drugs are you on?

What exactly makes you think linguistics 101 level truisms are drug-induced visions? Go read a textbook and stop pestering us.

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-13 08:35:06 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:47:19 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

It is vastly likely hat the similarity is a statistical coincidence,
if the languages belong to different language families, or if their
common ancestor dates from 1000s of years ago.

Hungarian ház and Dutch huis (especially in some dialects) sound very
similar, have the same meaning. But they are not cognate, and
Hungarian and Dutch are not related.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/h%C3%A1z
"From Proto-Finno-Ugric *kota. Cognates include Estonian kodu and
Finnish koti."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/huis#Etymology_1
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/h%C5%ABs%C4%85

I thougt it would be cognate to Spanish casa, showing the same k>h
change as in Finugric > Hungarian. But it seems it isn't.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/casa#Etymology_8
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/casa#Latin

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-13 06:58:38 UTC

Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:47:19 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
no matter which language or geography or claimed "Language Family" the words are used in. Sadly most linguists don't get this and won't get this.

Either you are stupid, or you refuse to think, or you never noticed
language change.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Daud Deden

2018-09-13 07:43:25 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:47:19 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
no matter which language or geography or claimed "Language Family" the words are used in. Sadly most linguists don't get this and won't get this.

Either you are stupid, or you refuse to think, or you never noticed
language change.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

What drugs are you on?

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-13 08:28:34 UTC

Thu, 13 Sep 2018 00:43:25 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:47:19 -0700 (PDT): Daud Deden

Post by Daud Deden
no matter which language or geography or claimed "Language Family" the words are used in. Sadly most linguists don't get this and won't get this.

Either you are stupid, or you refuse to think, or you never noticed
language change.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

What drugs are you on?

This would be insulting if it weren't so laughable.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Daud Deden

2018-09-12 13:54:44 UTC

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Tue, 11 Sep 2018 03:26:13 -0700 (PDT): Arnaud Fournet

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Swiss German and Karelian are in different language families, **so** they
cannot have cognates,

No, this "logical" inference is entirely false.
A.

No, it is not.

Franz Gnaedinger

2018-09-13 06:46:53 UTC

Mallory and Adams 2006 give *meli- 'badger, accounting for Latin meles and
Slavonic melc 'badger', words I link with PIE *melit and Latin mel 'honey'
and with the honey badger. Whereas you explain Latin meles via *meH1-s'-.
Apparently 'sound algebra' can lead to very different roots for the same
word, leaving space for an alternative etymology.

M & A also mention that the Ancient Greeks had 500 (five hundred) words for
birds, which means that there must have been many PIE words for common animals
in Eurasia, they say, among them the badger.

Tachash in the Bible is read as 'badger' by several scholars and would go
along with German Dachs 'badger' and Fuchs 'fox', Ruud Harmsenish das 'badger'
and vos 'fox' (*), and Italian tasso 'badger', all from DhAG meaning able.
Able guides of the sun horse and moon bull through the Underworld, the fox
guiding the sun horse (reddish fox, red mare of the midsummer sun rising above
the horizon of the ledge in the rotunda of Lascaux, fox on a Celtic stater
of the Curisolitae in Brittany, leaping foxes on a pair of central pillars
in a temple on the Goebekli Tepe, as explained in a previous message), the
badger guiding and protecting the moon bull in a hypothetical myth from the
Ural (evidence wanted; black badger maybe associated with a fire gone out,
leaving black ashes, perhaps referring to the cold light of the moon,
contrary to the 'fire' of the sun).

I uphold my hypothesis of an Uralic myth naming the badger in association
with the moon bull MUC, accounting for the badger words in Karelia and
Finnland in the West and maybe for the Japanese badger mujini in the East.
I say it again, a hypothesis.

* While here is a fact, a true actual fact. A medieval ancestor of Ruud
Harmsen traveled in the Swiss Alps and invited a bunch of natives to an
Edamer picnic on the shore of a charming little mountain lake, under fir
trees. Lo and behold, a badger and a fox were attracted by the exquisite
smell of the cheese melting on a fire. Das! Vos! exclaimed the surprised
Dutchman. Das vos, Das vos, gaily echoed the locals. And this named the
nearby village: Davos. You may know it from the annual World Economy
Forum Davos, where able ones from all over the world are meeting.

Arnaud Fournet

2018-09-13 07:55:42 UTC

*mel- as per Mallory-Adams is impossible, as Latin me:le:s has long vowels.
so only *meH1l- can account for Latin.
My little addition is that here PIE *l is not a plain *l but the reflex of the fricative lateral in PIE.
NB: melc is Slovenian, not Slavonic.

Ruud Harmsen

2018-09-13 08:13:26 UTC

Wed, 12 Sep 2018 23:46:53 -0700 (PDT): Franz Gnaedinger

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
* While here is a fact, a true actual fact. A medieval ancestor of Ruud
Harmsen traveled in the Swiss Alps and invited a bunch of natives to an
Edamer picnic on the shore of a charming little mountain lake, under fir
trees. Lo and behold, a badger and a fox were attracted by the exquisite
smell of the cheese melting on a fire. Das! Vos! exclaimed the surprised
Dutchman. Das vos, Das vos, gaily echoed the locals. And this named the
nearby village: Davos. You may know it from the annual World Economy
Forum Davos, where able ones from all over the world are meeting.

Nice story. But just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_etymology .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davos#History
"The village of Davos is first mentioned in 1213 as Tavaus."
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davos#Geschichte
"der Name Davos selbst, 1213 als Tavaus belegt, wird auf eine
Ableitung von spätlat. *tovu Tobel < tubus Röhre zurückgeführt:
*ad tovatos bei von Tobelschutt bedeckten Stellen oder *ad tovanes
bei den Tobelleuten."

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Franz Gnaedinger

2018-09-11 07:56:19 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Karelian has mägry 'badger' which reminds me of Magdalenian MUC for a bull,
used for anything compact, for example Swiss Mocke can refer to a Föifer
Mocke, a round bonbon on a popsickle for five cents, or it can call the
late opera singer Pavarotti, or it can name the motor in a car among
aficionados, or it can be a pet name for a toddler, my sweet chubby child.

The badger is of a sturdy build, justifying the association with MUC for bull
and Swiss Mocke for something or someone compact. Among the further derivatives
of MUC are Italian mucca 'cow', Greek myktaer 'nostril' mykaomai 'bellow',
Latin mugio 'bellow (of oxen)' mugientes 'oxen' mugitus 'bellowing (of oxen),
also the thunder of an earthquake - the Minoans believed that a thundering
earthquake is caused by a huge subterrannean bull (Lord Evans heard such
a bellowing thunder during a Cretan earthquake and found the metaphor
appropriate), Greek mega 'big', Hungarian magas 'high, big', English much
and mighty. How can a badger be mighty? German Dachs 'badger' and Fuchs 'fox'
derive from DhAG meaning able and can give us a hint. Badger and fox are
able diggers of tunnels and cavities in the ground, the ones of badgers
very extended. A charming Celtic stater of the Curisolitae in Brittany shows
the sun horse of the early (midsummer?) morning, under it the head of a fox
peeping out of a tunnel in the ground, so the fox guided the sun horse though
the labyrinth of the Underworld during the night and safely back to the surface
of the earth from where it can climb the sky and start another day ... This
goes along with a pair of elegant foxes on the central pillars of a temple on
the Goebekli Tepe, their body arcs indicating the trajectory of the sun by day.
Badgers played no role in European cave art, however, they could have been
mythical animals in the Transural, in the Nation of Towns, miner dwellings
of the Bronze Age. The white mark or badge on the head of the animal names
the English badger, while the silver-white and black stripes along the head
could have been associated with the alternating full moon and empty moon
(German Leermond). The badger could have guided the moon bull through the
Underworld in an Uralic myth, and might have been the emblem of Transuralic
miners of the Bronze Age. Hungarian has borz 'badger'. A town called Ber'ozovo
is found on the Malaja Ob' in the Transural. Bor- and Ber- may derive from
BIR meaning fur. Had a badger fur been a lucky charm of miners in the
Transural 4,000 years ago?

(Please take notice of the final question mark, it means I formulate
a hypothesis that needs confirmation from one side or another. It is the way
I work, encircling a hunch with facts and ideas, then looking out or waiting
for confirmation that can surprise me sometimes years later.)

Franz Gnaedinger

2018-09-11 08:15:48 UTC

The badger is of a sturdy build, justifying the association with MUC for bull
and Swiss Mocke for something or someone compact. Among the further derivatives
of MUC are Italian mucca 'cow', Greek myktaer 'nostril' mykaomai 'bellow',
Latin mugio 'bellow (of oxen)' mugientes 'oxen' mugitus 'bellowing (of oxen),
also the thunder of an earthquake - the Minoans believed that a thundering
earthquake is caused by a huge subterrannean bull (Lord Evans heard such
a bellowing thunder during a Cretan earthquake and found the metaphor
appropriate), Greek mega 'big', Hungarian magas 'high, big', English much
and mighty. How can a badger be mighty? German Dachs 'badger' and Fuchs 'fox'
derive from DhAG meaning able and can give us a hint. Badger and fox are
able diggers of tunnels and cavities in the ground, the ones of badgers
very extended. A charming Celtic stater of the Curisolitae in Brittany shows
the sun horse of the early (midsummer?) morning, under it the head of a fox
peeping out of a tunnel in the ground, so the fox guided the sun horse though
the labyrinth of the Underworld during the night and safely back to the surface
of the earth from where it can climb the sky and start another day ... This
goes along with a pair of elegant foxes on the central pillars of a temple on
the Goebekli Tepe, their body arcs indicating the trajectory of the sun by day.
Badgers played no role in European cave art, however, they could have been
mythical animals in the Transural, in the Nation of Towns, miner dwellings
of the Bronze Age. The white mark or badge on the head of the animal names
the English badger, while the silver-white and black stripes along the head
could have been associated with the alternating full moon and empty moon
(German Leermond). The badger could have guided the moon bull through the
Underworld in an Uralic myth, and might have been the emblem of Transuralic
miners of the Bronze Age. Hungarian has borz 'badger'. A town called Ber'ozovo
is found on the Malaja Ob' in the Transural. Bor- and Ber- may derive from
BIR meaning fur. Had a badger fur been a lucky charm of miners in the
Transural 4,000 years ago?
(Please take notice of the final question mark, it means I formulate
a hypothesis that needs confirmation from one side or another. It is the way
I work, encircling a hunch with facts and ideas, then looking out or waiting
for confirmation that can surprise me sometimes years later.)

A Google quicky revealed the badger in folklore as a trickster and
transformer of culture. During a new moon a badger enlarges its territory.
So the heavy-set badger, in a hypothetical Uralic myth, could have been
another emanation of the moon bull during a new moon or empty moon, and
mining certainly transformed culture.

Franz Gnaedinger

2018-09-12 06:51:43 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
A Google quicky revealed the badger in folklore as a trickster and
transformer of culture. During a new moon a badger enlarges its territory.
So the heavy-set badger, in a hypothetical Uralic myth, could have been
another emanation of the moon bull during a new moon or empty moon, and
mining certainly transformed culture.

I forgot to mention the badger as shape-shifter in folklore. A Japanese man
was happily married to a beautiful woman for twenty years, only then did he
find out that she was a mujini, a Japanese badger. (MUC muj- ?) As a young
teenager I spent a working holiday on a farm near my hometwon of Zurich.
The farmers, reasonable people, told me their neighbor sneaks around their
house by night in the guise of a dog - in all earnest, in the middle of the
twentieth century, when the Beatles appeared on the stage (in vainly did I
inform the good farmers about the law of energy conservation that includes
matter). So the badger could well have been considered a guise of the moon
bull while the moon was invisible (new moon, Leermond) and a guide and guard
of the moon bull when this one traversed the Underworld between moonset and
moonrise. Badgers are fierce and fearless defenders, biting every attacker
no matter how big, and not letting go until this one gives up. Moreover,
the honey badger could have been associated with a honey-colored moon
(present in honeymoon), Latin mel 'honey' meles 'badger'. - I don't force
Magdalenian but wait for what chance and luck blow my way. Maybe one day
I will come across a collection of Finno-Ugric or Uralic mythology,
fables and folklore ...

Franz Gnaedinger

2018-09-12 07:03:29 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
I forgot to mention the badger as shape-shifter in folklore. A Japanese man
was happily married to a beautiful woman for twenty years, only then did he
find out that she was a mujini, a Japanese badger. (MUC muj- ?) As a young
teenager I spent a working holiday on a farm near my hometwon of Zurich.
The farmers, reasonable people, told me their neighbor sneaks around their
house by night in the guise of a dog - in all earnest, in the middle of the
twentieth century, when the Beatles appeared on the stage (in vainly did I
inform the good farmers about the law of energy conservation that includes
matter). So the badger could well have been considered a guise of the moon
bull while the moon was invisible (new moon, Leermond) and a guide and guard
of the moon bull when this one traversed the Underworld between moonset and
moonrise. Badgers are fierce and fearless defenders, biting every attacker
no matter how big, and not letting go until this one gives up. Moreover,
the honey badger could have been associated with a honey-colored moon
(present in honeymoon), Latin mel 'honey' meles 'badger'. - I don't force
Magdalenian but wait for what chance and luck blow my way. Maybe one day
I will come across a collection of Finno-Ugric or Uralic mythology,
fables and folklore ...

The trickster god of the San (formerly known as Bushmen) is their supreme god,
also a shape-shifter, and creator of the moon.

Franz Gnaedinger

2018-09-12 07:14:57 UTC

The trickster god of the San (formerly known as Bushmen) is their supreme god,
also a shape-shifter, and creator of the moon.

Quote from a website on animals in Celtic mythology or symbolism

Badger (Broc): Unyielding in the face of danger and is noted for its
tenacity and courage. The badger will teach you to fight for your rights
and defend your spiritual ideas.

This tenacity would have made him a perfect guard of the moon bull trough
the dangerous labyrinth of the Underworld.

Arnaud Fournet

2018-09-12 07:17:53 UTC

The trickster god of the San (formerly known as Bushmen) is their supreme god,
also a shape-shifter, and creator of the moon.

Quote from a website on animals in Celtic mythology or symbolism
Badger (Broc): Unyielding in the face of danger and is noted for its
tenacity and courage. The badger will teach you to fight for your rights
and defend your spiritual ideas.
This tenacity would have made him a perfect guard of the moon bull trough
the dangerous labyrinth of the Underworld.

this could be a nice starting sentence for your next paleo-sci-fi book.

Peter T. Daniels

2018-09-12 13:01:49 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Quote from a website on animals in Celtic mythology or symbolism

A normal person would have given the url of the web site.

Post by Franz Gnaedinger
Badger (Broc): Unyielding in the face of danger and is noted for its
tenacity and courage. The badger will teach you to fight for your rights
and defend your spiritual ideas.
This tenacity would have made him a perfect guard of the moon bull trough
the dangerous labyrinth of the Underworld.

Daud Deden

2018-09-12 04:35:24 UTC